Zaelí Kane, who is one of Kyley's oldest friends & playing a big role in Eva's next chapter, is back on the show. We discuss creativity, when your life turns inside out, the pull of our ancestors, the gift of performance, and a million other things.
Zaelí Kane, who is one of Kyley's oldest friends & playing a big role in Eva's next chapter, is back on the show. We discuss creativity, when your life turns inside out, the pull of our ancestors, the gift of performance, and a million other things.
Connect with Zaelí here:
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https://www.instagram.com/she.shed.hypno/
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Kyley's Instagram: @kyleycaldwell
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📍 Welcome back, Ailey. We are so happy to have you here on the Hello Universe podcast,
I'm so glad to be back. It's a big deal for me.
Ooh. Well, it's an
love you.
Yeah, exactly. . Um, our first question is, what's life teaching you at the moment?
Mm-hmm. . Yeah. You, you warned me about that one.
And yet
I was like, oh, I have been making a syllabus. Um, What's new? Um, I mean, the first thing to come to mind is surrender. I feel like that's the perennial one. Um, but more like, I think that's always been something that we're, we're told to work on or that I feel I'm working on, but only now am I kind of getting it where I'm learning the beauty part and people talk about that and you're like, yeah, yeah, yeah.
At least that's how I felt. Where it's like, you've kind of gotta do some mental gymnastics. But I have lately been seeing or have been feeling the reality of, oh, um, when I let go, when I hand something over, it is that thing that becomes the next thing that I love, you know?
um,
the past is constantly becoming the present.
And, uh, so that's been, that's been a liberation, I suppose, but I could go on. This has been a time of intense integration and internalization, so lots to talk about for sure.
I really love what you're saying. It's making me think about these moments where like, the last thing I wanna do is let go of control, right? Like even if sometimes I think intellectually, I think I'm letting go of control, but like subconsciously we are like very tightly gripping something. Um, and also if I can fall deep enough, the thing I'm actually always hungry for is to fucking let go.
Yeah. And it's so tricky. I mean, don't you sometimes wonder if it's all just semantics? Because I'm like, uh, letting go is why, why does that sound hard? Like, well, we live in a very retentive society. I don't think you can have a, a society with written history that isn't already skewing toward retention. And then even, even into My Roots, I would say I come from like a retentive society, um, in, in terms of like a deep love of history and nostalgia and heritage and all of this. So it's, you know, I've always wanted to kind of be like the chill girl. And I have my moments know, I can braid my hair very convincingly, like chill like the Chill
Yeah, you, you can nail the chill girl aesthetic
But in the corner I'm like rapidly taking notes on everything. Um, I might need this information later. Um, so. , like a big part of it is, well, actually I was just reflecting on this today. So allowing just that I am who I am, which sounds so basic, but it's funny to get to this point of my life, I'm so happy I can officially say I'm midlife like, um, and realize like, wow, I really never believed that a woman like me was allowed to exist.
Like, um, and I'm not saying that to set myself apart, but just how deeply it went. That's like, there's something wrong with me. There's something wrong with me based on, you know, um, the way that I need to organize my life in order to feel like I'm fully here. Uh, and I know that I'm not alone in that. I know that that's, that's probably your demographic, like your audience.
And so just, just getting to the point where I'm not constantly negotiating that and having to like justify myself, I think was taking up a lot of my energy and yeah. So the letting go is a relaxation. Uh, that's the beauty, I suppose. Instead of me thinking like, oh, I have to throw what I love into this volcano, which is how I was imagining it before.
yes, yes. A thousand percent, yes.
I feel like that
I mean, the volcano's there,
I actually referred to myself as an interrupting volcano earlier today. So the volcanic theme really,
Hmm.
through the day.
Mm-hmm.
I feel like this already we're getting into, and this touches on this transition that you've been going through. I, I don't know, beginning when, but you've referred to the fact that things have definitely changed a lot, at least since when we first started. You were one of our first guests actually on the Hello Universe episode and so I imagine so much has changed since then.
Um, and I would wonder if you would wanna talk about that a little bit cuz I think oftentimes, for others to hear about people's transition process. I mean, that can be a very helpful, um, model, you know, for what other people are experiencing as well.
Yeah. Absolutely. So, um, so when I did the episode before, which I, I don't think I've listened to since it aired, but I remember that we had a good time. So I feel like people should still probably listen to it again,
Yes, I feel very confident. It was great based on how much fun we had.
I think it was one of our favorite episodes. We had a li like, we always kinda do like a top whatever episodes of that year. And it, I think it was on that list. Yeah.
Oh, oh, that's so sweet to hear. Yeah, so, um, like while honoring the past, I'll just tell you that it has been a total transformation. And so when I spoke to you then I was offering myself for clinical services as I am a certified clinical hypnotist. And I began that work formally in, I, well I should know, but I guess it was 2019 or maybe I was certified in 2018 or something like that.
But, um, not ahead for numbers so much mine, but I had a practice from home. She shed hypno parlor, uh, it built through word of mouth. It, it built through Instagram where I would post these sort of micro memoir essays that really resonated with, with women and, and brought me all sorts of clientele. And that educated me so much because it was really across the board what I was working with.
Um, whether that was issues of sexual dysfunction or, you know, side effects from medicine having to do with breast cancer, involuntary harass, hysterectomy, you know, sexual abuse, like a huge range and. Essentially at the same time that I was offering this like really profound work, I was also moonlighting as a standup comedian here in Austin, Texas,
And I mean that was really a huge growth spurt cuz I, I mean I started that when I was nursing my daughter and kind of came into them at the same time. I started doing comedy first. But while both these careers were very important to me and I had a knack for both, cause they're both like verbal arts I would say, and relational arts, I was really struggling with reconciling them.
And also I think for where I was with my own healing work, the clinical work was too much probably, to be honest with you. They were both too much. Like, it's quite intense to be on a stage and to have a spotlight in your eyes and, you know, um
talked about this last time, but being a comedian to me is, I think could be like some of the scariest, intense work that you could possibly do. It's not just performing, but it's the performance. And I think we, I don't know, I think we might have touched on this last time, but it's performing and then. Needing to make people laugh. That's those, that's terrifying and hard as shit. I
well
you gotta be, have some, some real cas to put yourself in that position.
People would say that to me when I started. And, um, I mean, I did, I did have my, you know, moments of discomfort doing it, but it was never anything that really scared me. Now I'm doing stuff that scares me now. I'm like, oh, I know what people are talking about now because I feel I, you know, like I'm really going outta my comfort zone in some areas.
Uh, and we can talk about the
yeah, I'm gonna wanna get to those.
But the basics of the story is that, so when, when I last talked to you, I was essentially introducing myself as a practitioner with this side hustle in the arts. And I've since realized that I have to reverse it and introduce myself as an artist. And if you are, if my work resonates with you, then I make myself available for one-on-one work and group work that's specific to the energy that you need to move, because it's all energy moving work.
You know, were reframing stories and redirecting blockages. I mean, that's what the laugh does. That's what you hope the laugh does, is knock something. you know? Um, and so they're just different ways of going about it. But I was resistant because to me, and Kylie, you may relate to this because we, we, we bonded over swooning so hard, like for our literary heroes. But for, for me, when I, in my younger years, the word artist was like this sacred cloak, you know, that I, that it was almost like only a demigod can can claim that. And who do you think you are, especially as a woman, like especially as a woman, who do you think you are to like dawn that yourself? Somebody's supposed to come, preferably after you're dead and be like, she was a real one, you know, and now it's so funny how that word has, like, I've always known that's what I'm built for,
Yeah.
but,
validate. So you know
well it feel, it just feels too sacred or it feels like I already have too many blessings or whatever like that.
But now I feel almost the opposite where I'm like, thank God there is this one word that can cover everything I'm doing. Cuz I'm so sick of explaining like this, this three paragraph, you know, primer on how I'm a hypnotist, that blah, blah, blah. And it's just so much
Yes.
just be like, yeah, I'm an R I'm one of them.
So that's, that's been really beautiful. Yeah. And scary.
I love, uh, there's so many things I could speak to, yes. To this idea of art seeming like a too big a deal. Um, just to share personally, what's really helped me is hilariously TikTok, because somehow I ended up in the corner of TikTok where it's all these people just sharing their, like art, whether they're like professional artists or it's like, they're like, you know, frigging like paint by numbers thing.
And it has somehow given me tremendous permission to be like, oh, right, art is fun. So that's been really great. But also, um, what I wanna reflect back to you as someone who's known you for a long time is like, of course you're an artist, right? I think there's this way that people, um, like can, like, I think about this in writing and I think about how like, writing is this thing that is often really hard for me and also like, won't let me go.
You know? And I've had people introduce me before, before like, oh, this is Kylie, she's a writer. And I am like, it, it, it, it's happened at times in my life where I'm not writing a fucking thing, right? But it's people who are just like, that's it, that's who you are. And I feel the same way about you. An artist is like, Oh yeah.
Like what other word is there? Forza. So, um, and also like, I just, I, I love what you're speaking to of this like kind of dancing around and trying to like dabble but not claim versus like, oh, how fuck liberating to be like, yeah, I'm just the really big thing. That's what I am.
Well, I mean that that's the, the fact that you would say like, oh, what else would she be? I think that was part of it. Not, and not to drill too deep into this particular area, but it might be useful. Someone else might relate, but I have this thing, or I had this thing about not wanting to be cliche and like, it's so on the nose, like what I'm doing now, , what I'm unveiling to you now is so thoroughly on the nose for me.
Like that's why I couldn't do it for so long. Cause I'm like, this is so predictable. I've practically already done it. Like, you know, like I had to come up with something else. And so I think because it was obvious that since I was a child that I was like a dreamy, you know, paint in my Nate book in, in my notebook and you know, write poems kind of girl that I wanted to prove that I was also serious or, you know, when I get my doctorate, then people will listen to me and I won't just be this like dreamy girl
Mm-hmm. , you're then, you're legitimate in some way.
yeah, yeah, yeah. For sure. And, and also that's part of me, I mean, I'm also. Have that scholarly thing. I mean, we're vast. Right? You know, and so picking any kind of label this relates to the vocational distress that I said, yeah, we should probably talk about it because it's the, it, it is the ancestor work that healed it for me, really being called in very deeply to, uh, explore and express my Irish heritage.
And through that I discovered this is really a very like English language problem that I'm having. Not just in being like, oh, there needs to be one word for me. Like there needs to be one name, you know, but also just this idea that the, the healer and the comedian are two different things. Like, that wouldn't be true in a, in a Gaelic world where the storyteller, the band faa, like the prayer woman, uh, you know, she has many, many tools and a lot of them are sort of like cy psychic chiropractory.
If , if that's, if that's a term, you know, um, that can be used through storytelling and Jokes and, and you know, essentially being a performance, a performance of a different point of view, a performance of a space that you can move into and get used to. And yeah, so me approaching it that way, where I'm.
Storytelling a woman. Uh, but I can offer stories at different registers, and sometimes those stories are just particular to you and for you. Um, and sometimes it is just that we're at a party and, uh, you want to create a memorable scene, you know, uh, which involves the, the tangible and the intangible. And tho, tho that's the magic that I invoke together in my performance art, that, that hopefully reminds people of why it is exciting to be here, even though it is often so very hard.
mm Okay. Before, before we dive into that, I love that explanation first of all, but I, I actually do wanna talk about what you call vocational distress, because I think that is a real thing and to, to ground this in something very real life. Something like Kylie, I don't know if you would've called this vocational distress, Kylie, but I know I have experienced this in many ways, in many iterations and will continue to.
But Kylie, one conversation that you and I had was when you were merging these two sides of your business, which were like, you know, this very mystical, like I am playing with God, side of you, and then this other side of you that's like, but also I have this really practical
also that they help you price your offer. Yeah,
exactly. And feeling like we couldn't, like, you couldn't, somehow they were disparate and that like, I don't know, we have this idea of like, things need to make sense or, and, and this is something that I hear all the time, like this idea of like, oh, but I wanna, I wanna do this thing, and then I also wanna do this thing.
People who, who are creative and who and, um, passionate and multi-passionate. And I think we're better suited for it now, thank God. I think our society is slowly being like, okay, you can be multi-passionate, that's fine. But there's still, I think, a lot of difficulty and shame for people around that because we're like, we're we should, we should specify in something.
And that's how you become, that's how you become an expert. And you need to be an expert in order to be like taken seriously.
well, and I will also just add, cuz this was a really, like you, you helped me kind of shatter something pretty big in the particular conversation you're speaking to. Um, is that I had felt for a while, like I needed to have a tidy story. Right. That explained how I, who I was that did all these things.
Oh, the tidy story. Sorry. That's like the bane of my fucking existence. . Cause I'm always trying to have a tidy
well, but, okay. Here's the thing that I realized is that thanks to you is that I was the one confused. It wasn't the lack of story, it was that like I had created this internal separation and once I was willing to be like, yeah, you know, , I'm a fucking mystic who also can tell you how to like build a launch strategy.
I don't know. I don't fucking care. I just do both. And once I could like let them coexist the need for a tidy story just like dissipated.
Well, and why wouldn't you? Why wouldn't that be your story? Like to me, that is a tidy story because right now we're living in a world that's driven by the marketplace and money is the currency. And also I'm, I mean, it's a huge energetic force. So why would we not have mystics with business acumen or mystics guiding, you know, other heart-centered people who are looking to shape the world?
Cuz the truth is the world is shaped through business right now. And probably all always has been. I mean, you could imagine even, I mean, you can go deep into this. Um, if, if you wanna look at the, the history of trade as leading exploration and, you know, it's, it's relationship to the military and all of that.
Like, it, it really does come down to like, how do we relate in the marketplace? Um, so yeah, I think it's totally appropriate, but we do, we have the false schism and it's one of the fun things that we get to juggle and jiggle and pickle ourselves with
But, but what, but what you're saying, Kylie is also, I think on par of what with, with what's Ailey's saying, which is that I think, sorry, you might have mentioned this Ailey before we started recording, but the idea that like, oftentimes, um, the transformation comes from owning it within ourselves. It's never like no one, I mean gen, unless you're like a serious hater.
You're probably not out there being like, I don't understand what your story is. And like, I don't, like no one really gives a fuck. But oftentimes the dissonance is within ourselves because you call yourself an artist now daily, and I'm not, like, I'm not, I'm not like, who do you think you are? You know that that's an internal story that comes from our own wounding,
And then part of owning that I think is our, um, initiation,
Yeah. And for me, what made the big difference, and I knew that I had to make this change for a while before I could actually make it, cuz I was just so entrained, but was realizing that this is not a real problem. Because whenever I meet people, they know who I am and they understand what I do because I'm good at it, you know?
And that I carry that with me. So the, the problem is that I keep imagining, how do I explain myself to a webpage? That's what was fucking me up was being like, oh, this needs to be something that like AI can digest. And it's like, no it doesn't, because. . If I just do what I do, then I meet the people who need it.
They tell each other. People love to tell each other about good stuff and stuff that really works in this world full of like liquid bullshit. They love to, to, you know, chat about things that are actually moving energy. And so just trusting that if, if I, if I just start making my offering and I figure out as I go, kind of how I like to do it or how it works best, then that'll be fine.
And, and of course I'll, I'll have a webpage and probably I'll have social media because that's comforting or that's like how it's done. But I don't need to stop myself from, you know, putting myself out there just because n nothing quite feels right. Nothing quite captures it so far that I've attempted at that level.
Um, and I, I, but I did have to be ready, like with my own grief work because my, my personal life has had to shapeshift so, so much in the last few years and I'm a sensitive gal, you know, so there was a lot coursing through that. And then, you know, you put your family first, um, and yeah, but I'm called to pretty intense plot lines and and intense work, so it feels really good to be. available for it again, uh, for, for other people's adventures and facilitating that. But I did make a conscious decision, and this was another part of what I was able to internalize through my, my heritage explorations that like, I wanna be more festive about it. And that's a huge part of the medicine. And so entering, um, my services through parties and through moments of celebration and, and moments of marking time in a festive way is, is really core to my new approach instead of what I was doing before, which is also super, super valuable, but just not something that calls to me as much right now, which is more like, okay, you're in a terrible place because something terrible happened to you and I will be here for you now.
So maybe, maybe I'll get a few years under my belt of just like pure celebration and I'll get all charged up and be like, okay, I'm ready for like to do wakes again. But right now, Right, right now I'm just doing weddings, so to speak.
Um, okay. I have a question for you. This is actually amazing cause I also just told a story the other day about my Irish family having very fun funerals. So, um,
did you, do you have I share Dish?
oh yeah. I'm all Irish.
Oh, you, you are
Yeah.
like 100%.
I mean, my 50% of opportunity is a big question mark, but,
right.
but even that I like took a DNA test and they were like, yeah, you're still all Irish
Round it up. Round it
that's what I'm, my whole life. I'm like, uh, yeah, it up. But yeah, no,
oh, that's really cool. I,
my, like my mom is, has dual citizenship. It, she didn't get it. I, it doesn't apply to me, but, um, . Like my, the town that I grew up in, this town called Tiit, Massachusetts is, um, like famous. It's like in my kids' atlas for being the, like most densely populated Irish American like town.
I don't know if it still is, but like,
Oh, I
so when I grew up, I not only, not only am like I Irish, my mom's one of 10 kids and this like very Irish Catholic family. But, um, I grew up in a town where like everyone was Catholic, everyone was Irish American. Um, so it was like a pretty good, um, my, my Irish American ancestry, like, it, my, it feels close.
It doesn't feel like a, it doesn't feel like a vague thing. It feels, and my daughter's birthday is St. Patrick's Day.
Oh yeah.
Yeah, yeah, yeah. Although she did think that the shamrock on her pants were broccoli, so I might be failing my children.
I
me just, let me just say on the Irish thing, so for one, no, we talked about this before we were in episode mode, but I do want people to know, so like part of my, like reintroduction is that I had to come to terms with the fact that my a, my, my specialties, my gifts, my story, my performances, they are all oriented around this theme around, um, the Irish diaspora, which some people, you know, are, are not even familiar with the concept of a diaspora, but really applies to all of us, whatever your background is. Um, this like sudden dispersal to various places of a people from one place. And, um, so when we talk about that in the context of Ireland, we're usually talking about, yeah, like it being a, a compelled diaspora because of tragic circumstances.
Um, the British reaction to the potato blight known here as the potato famine. Um, among other things, uh, but I, I didn't. I felt that was too niche, even though it's anything. But because the Irish diaspora, I mean, it is what it sounds like. We went all over the world and you know, we like to marry into Everybody's family
rabbits.
so, so everybody's got some Irish. And the other cool thing about it, the reason why it's really powerful is that, um, the official Irish attitude is quite inclusive as much as it's very common to, to see an, you know, natal Irish citizen roll their eyes that like, oh, sure, you're thinking Irish, like, you know, just some yank blah, blah, blah.
Um, but officially the policy is really inclusive of anyone who has a relation to, to Ireland, even generations back. There's a strong, strong belief in, in that type of heritage. But also if you have a strong affinity for Ireland, if you have a special love that you're also included, like formally included in the, in the government's, uh, strategy of, of how to reach out to the diaspora, there's like a category of that.
So it's just kind of this, um, The factor of enchantment is, is reflected in that as well. So I think that's really important for the work we do when we talk about, um, you know, doing shadow work or ancestor work. Um, that if you are someone who is of mixed lineage or doesn't know your lineage and you're conscientious of not appropriating, um, traditions or folklore where you might not be welcome, it's not yours to take, like I do say, just if you feel an affinity for, uh, the, the Irish version of that, lean into it because it is, you know, you not every single individual, but as a culture, it is true that that sentiment of 10,000 welcomes like that is something that's on the offer.
And so that's part of what I am here for.
I am so thrilled that you're much like you claiming the mantle of artists. I'm so thrilled by this because like, as you were, as you're speaking to this, I'm just like, oh, oh yeah. Cause we're like, we need like the, like the, my full body sense is like, like, um, like just this recognition of like a need being met.
It feels, it, it feels important. And also, um, this excitement for you. because this is what you have been doing. Right. Those moments of like, like I, I just, I think we, I think so many of us, I know I've had many of them where like my specialty or my like, quote unquote niche, as much as I don't like that term, like my superpower is so obvious to everybody except for me, you know?
Mm-hmm. . Yes. Yeah.
And I really appreciate that. So far in this conversation, we're just speaking to the, like confusion and resistance that we have to like our own kind of superpower and the labels that fit us best, because I think that's so common. And also in that moment we can actually just allow that mantle to be like, okay, fine, fine.
I see it. I get it. Like, this is the work that, like, this is how I feel about money. Like, I feel like I am a constant fuck up about money, and yet people keep coming to me to be like, be my money teacher. And I'm like, can't you ask me to help me literally anything? Why is this my thing? Right? But, but also like, it is, it is my thing because, you know, because I've, you know, for all the reasons and anyways, I just, um, I just love, I love seeing this like, I don't know, you stepping into your own superpower.
Thank you.
Stepping into it and, and I think, well, being aware of it, because I can't think, Kylie, what you're talking about, and you've said this to me many times before, is like, we don't see what comes naturally to us because it's natural. So we're like, oh, whatever. This is like easy. So like, you're always saying to me that my thing is like I, I, um, take complicated, you know, airy ideas and can bring them down to earth and make them very practical.
And I'm like, I love that as a compliment, but sometimes I'm like, I am like, do I, like, is that what I, I'm not, is that what I'm doing? I get, I don't even see it necessarily because I think that's just how my brain works. And so I think what, I mean, you even spoke to this too earlier as Ailee is like, it's so obvious maybe, but also it takes us a long time, I think for us to, for us to get there when maybe other people have been seeing it for some time now.
I mean, I, first time I met you, I was very clear to me. I mean already then, and this was like, what, how long have we been doing the podcast Kylie?
like three
Maybe years. So three years ago, you know, like, um, just, it was already very clear to me that your gay like culture was a huge part of everything that you are.
Yeah, and I have to say that in in my. . You know, I think it's just because it meant so much to me that I didn't wanna play with it lightly. I was very aware of not wanting to exploit it because, you know, if you wanted to, you could make gimmick after gimmick out of my backstory. And I didn't wanna do that.
So I had my reservations, or I had my own version of it, you know, in fact, it took me a while to even connect that, like, all of who I am that I did know and accept about myself was a flower of this, you know, older thing where I was like, oh yeah, you know, my dancing and my infatuation with language and, you know, just like my orientation around having a good time.
Like these, these things are, and, and my obsession with family and, and place and these things like that. They, I didn't come up with them. I inherited them. And what I needed though was a lot of encouragement from the people I looked up to. And so I, you know, when we began this recording and, and I began with some recognition of our teachers, I can, I, it's impossible to express the impact it's had on my life that the, particularly I, I wanna name the people of Coco Queen, this peninsula where my, my family immigrated from.
Uh, again, it's not like a universal cheerleader thing, but some, some very key like keepers of the lore of the tradition, and that's a place that's pretty intense about the value of its traditions. Like even for Ireland, that place is pretty intense. Um, so for them to encourage me and to invite me in and to trust me, you know, with, um, with using my voice, um, as an extension of the landscape and our shared history, that's what I really needed.
And I, when I say I really need it, I, I mean, like, it wasn't enough for just like three different people. Like, I had to go like years of correspondence with many people before I felt like, um, yeah, th this is something that I can now really, um, put at the forefront or put it at the center. Um, and there's always more to learn and I've gotten over my need to, to be like I am now an expert, you know?
Um, or I, I know as much as, yeah, the person with their PhD would know about everything I'm talking about, but I do. appreciate what I bring to it now. And, and part of that is this hybrid experience that I've had as a Gaelic soul on this multicultural walkabout that has raised me, um, in America for, for lack of a better term.
You know, cuz I've grown a, a little bit all over. Um, and that I've known a type of home sickness, a type of longing, a a type of, um, confusion that is at the end of the day, just another thing that we can bond over, another thing that we can sing songs about and, and talk about and share. Um, and so I really strongly believe that we have medicine for each other, the ones who stayed and the ones who left, uh, during those critical years of our diaspora and, and in the sharing of medicine for each other.
That's just, that's all we can do. That's, and, and that's a wonderful thing that we can do, um, for, for the rest of the world who might not share in our history, who haven't like, survived what we've survived or enjoyed what we've enjoyed, but have their own version of it. Because surely we all do, you know,
Hmm.
and it feels like this is the moment for it.
This is the moment for that reconciliation where, you know, technology. Sped up life, like the, the rate at which life could vary in including like generational change and moving from one place to another where you're, you're leaving the patterns that your body expects and has expected maybe for generations of what is the weather and what are our songs and who's the spirit here dreaming us up.
And then we're somewhere else and it might take 1, 2, 3 generations and then we can kind of catch our breath and be like, okay, what the fuck just happened? You know, where are our, where, where our grandparents, grandparents buried and who buried them because their children weren't there,
Hmm.
So these are the things that I've been crying about for three years.
Uh,
Hmm.
because I'm a keening woman as well, which is an Irish charm. Did we talk about that last time?
I don't remember.
I don't remember.
Let's dig into it. What does that, what does that.
So caning is, um, a, a, a Gaelic tradition or an Irish tradition of a form of lament. And uh, it can take different, different forms. It's not like a really rigid thing, but it would be considered a vocation. Uh, basically women and sometimes widows or women who might not have. Another handy source of income.
But basically the way I think of it is basically you get the crying started at Wake
Uh,
mourn.
oh. Yeah. We have those in, I don't know if it's, if, if that's how, how professional you mean. But in, in Taiwan, they have people that you can hire to go to your funeral to cry loudly. So to express how much the person who's passed was loved and they, they're there to, yeah. Kind of be a performance. Is that the same thing?
Is it kind of like that?
Uh, well, I see this, I've seen this tradition in other cultures where, like wisdom cultures where we take more time with death and like I was just reading about the Meek Mack traditional Meek Mack version of this. Um, and it was similar in these long wakes and, and just dramatic over the top lamentation that, you know, might, consists of. You know, I, I, I see the parallels in Irish music still, where there's a recruiting of the sorrow to start with, you know, sad music or slow music and the heartaches. So we're all together in the heartache, and then it kind of frenze that into what then becomes an ecstasy. And so I would say the keeners.
Well, I thought that to say that sounds amazing. Like that sounds terrifying, but in like a beautiful, beautiful way, there's something very compelling to me about that
Yeah. And I wasn't planning on getting into the subject, but it is something I'm really interested in because, well, first of all, obviously with my background in hypnosis and as a dancer or a performer, I'm very interested in how to induce trance in a group setting. And, um, also this concept of, now I would say the traditional belief about death in the Irish culture is that death is the kind of migration.
And they talk about the afterlife outside of a Christian conversation, a the land of the young. So it's a, it's actually a renewal where you're being restored, um, to your vitality, but in another dimension. And so that's a migration. That's why you wouldn't wanna bury the body right away, because there's a separation that has to happen between the material and immaterial of that person.
And the function of the wake is obviously the community needs to come together to recognize the loss.
Yeah. And to what I think was, I'm called, like, what I'm really pulled to is this idea of grieving out loud together. grief is a big theme right now in my life. So just, there's something that sounds so medicinal about that.
Yeah. And, and in, in, in the case of death that the, the grievers are needed by the deceased because it is our demonstration of grief that actually thins the veil. So it, it helps with the dying, the migration process. And it particularly helps, I, I suppose, with some kind of encouragement because that traditional Irish wake, that's really festive.
And so it includes these lamentations. And these lamentations are, they're, they're, they might just be like weeping, moaning, agony sounds, but also there's usually a recitation of the genealogy. So the family is acknowledged and a list of, of praise of traits, you know, so the departing soul actually witnesses this, sees the show hears, themself described, is reminded of who they are and the impression they left and the impact they had on their community.
So they're present for that. Um, and as, as shy as the average Irish Parishionist that I see about taking compliments to their living face, I know , that they want those compliments spoken at their wake. I just know that's, that's how it's thought. So anyway, when I was saying I was a keening woman, it's kind of a joke because I, I, I don't literally do wakes or, or at least not yet.
Um, but I cry so easily and I've always felt that I give people permission. to, to, like, I hold that end down where I'm like, this is okay, or this is normal. And, uh, yeah. And, and I would say that I've been in a way as someone, someone called in to, to reflecting and doing some emotional processing about this bigger themes, uh, of loss and shock and endurance for the, the people native of Ireland
What's coming to my mind is like being, being the person who gives permission to like really let loose and cry at awake at a funeral. And being the person who gives permission to like begin the dance party at a wedding is the same role, is it's, it's definitely azalee role but like, uh, yeah, it's just.
it's landing for me in this moment. I was, it's actually the exact same role. Right? It's, it's
freedom.
it's, yeah. It's like it's permission to emote and like fall in and experience, um,
yes. It's confidence and it's respect for the needs of the body. You know, my body needs to dance,
Mm-hmm.
and my body needs to cry. and that's really, really normal, you know? But as, but especially if you've got any Irish in you, like you should probably Oof, yeah, you should, you should probably consider that.
Like music is, is a big part of, of our medicine. I mean, suppose, I suppose that's universally true, but for some reason that was a really big discovery for me when I was trying to piece my life back together of what actually, you know, what do I need in my morning routine, for example. And I, you know, you would think based on what you read, that just like 10 minutes of meditation would make the biggest difference.
Cuz that I think is the most medically studied and certainly like, it has a great track record. But for me, I found the biggest difference with being that, you know, if, if I spend three minutes dancing, like if I put on one song in the morning,
Hmm.
that's actually what has the biggest, the biggest impact for me. But, and so my, my, my performance, I, that was the other scary, humbling thing. And when I was speaking earlier about being outside of my comfort zone, I mean, it's not like I haven't been dancing all of my life. Surely that's what I'm known for, for better or worse, uh, in a lot of crowds. Like Kylie, I don't know if you remember me on the dance team back in the day, but I even weezled my way
wait, which dance team?
College. When we were in college, I had pompoms,
is actually, this is my Zalie dance memory is, I remember being at, oh, I can't, Zulu, I think was the name, this like really great bar
zoo, zoos.
Zuzu. Yes. Yeah. And, uh, yeah, Zulu is my friend's dog name. Um, anyway, uh, you like, we, we weren't there together, but you like came up and were, we were dancing only, I did not know it was you.
And I was like, this woman, like this woman is dancing. Like she is very friendly and like we're having fun, but also like, and it literally was like an hour later that I was like, oh,
Well, did I know it was you?
you knew it was me. And so you were like, Hey. And I was like, hi. Hi. It was like a total, yeah, it was like, it was like the end of the night that I was like, oh, it's, this is like my friend who I've known for a decade. That's
This is so funny not to derail us, but, but I, I have, I've never, I've like do, and I don't understand this phenomenon that I have where people don't recognize me . Cause I'm
No.
I have, is it because all redheads look the same? Because I feel like I have features.
Uh, yeah. I feel like you're a recognizable person, so I don't actually, as we're saying this, I'm just getting real, like, uh, like, like Fay Shapeshifting vibes.
no,
that's what I, that's exactly what I was thinking too. Or maybe just cuz you have costumes and I mean that in like a great way, just like fashion and,
it's so true. Yeah, it is. Um, I know I, I and I do like that about myself, but that, that is, yeah. I'm glad you have a zuzu memory cuz that place is a landmark for me. But, so me being like, oh my God. And I knew this when I came home. I mean, so some, so I, so I, I went to Ireland as soon as the Covid travel restrictions lifted and my intention was to relaunch there and to offer, like, to reopen cuz they kind of suspended my services during lockdown to, to focus on homeschooling and stuff slash to, you know, melt, melt down into a pile of toast.
Toasty crumbs.
goo. Yeah.
Yes. Yeah. To, to, to do the goo get my PhD in Gooing
Hmm.
honorary
we were gonna be literary professors. Turns out our PhD is in dissolving au
I'm a doctor of, um, , um, and. , I, it didn't work at all. And, and it, it, it was like, it was an a, it was a pilgrimage and it was like an anti, uh, experience and you know,
do you mean by anti experience? It's like it was unpleasant or,
Okay. Give me, let me take, let me take a sip of water while I think of how I
It's so nice to be talking to you. My heart is very full.
Alright.
Yeah.
Yeah. It feels, feels.
Yeah. Also, it's funny because, uh, I actually, I actually suspect it's connected to Ancestry in some way, but in this conversa, I feel like this has, oh, happens when I talk to you. But like my, like , basically, my grandfather and Caldwell both feel so loud right now. And I'm, I'm not normally, like, mediumship isn't really my thing, like right.
People just pop in every once in a while. But what I'm actually feeling right now is like, yeah, dummy, it's your ancestry. Like, that's the, that's like, that's where, uh, that's where your dead people abil ability, talking to dead people, abilities come from
Well, maybe that's why we avoid it. You know, I've definitely felt, you know, when I embarked on this, it wasn't, it didn't come from me going like, oh, I wanna be a spiritual guide of any kind. It didn't come from me being like, oh, you know, I look really Irish, and that's marketable. Or cer certainly not thinking, oh, there is a need for this.
Like, it didn't actually, it, it bec like, I just leaned into the, the prompt that I saw. from people I respected to investigate my privilege. And it just immediately started turning into, you know, looking into my own ancestors and looking into my own context. And you, it, when I embarked on it, it, it felt like the, the, I don't wanna say safest thing to do, but just like, well of course, why wouldn't you, why wouldn't you work on your whiteness?
Why wouldn't you, you know, do this, this kind of like shadow work or outreach or like, that's what I built for, but then, you know, things do get spooky
Mm.
when, and I didn't understand that at first, and that's why I think it, it is really helpful to have a guide or have a facilitator, um, when doing any kind of like, decolonization work because it's not just like, I didn't realize, oh, when I let go of a certain shelter that I take in an ideology that I may or may not even be aware that I have. Uh, I, I like it all comes apart, you know?
Mm.
Uh, and like I, I, I lost my feminism and had to reinvent what that meant to me. I lost. , you know, my like, what, what were my identifications of like, these people are like me, these are my friends.
And I was like, in no man's land, you know? And I, and I still kind of feel there, but like now I see like, oh, that's the magic. Uh, but it got so scary and lonely and, and gross. Um, but we were, what were we talking about before we said, oh,
hold on. Let me, so wait, are you, were you, I just, I'm just jumping back in here from a bathroom break. Do you mean were you, what? When you talking about scary and gross, you mean the time, the gooeyness of, of the past couple years? Is that what you were talking about?
yeah. Well I'm talk, I'm talking about the gooeyness of, so I suppose now I'm
And also, are we recording? Are we recording right now? Are we like
w we just unintentionally We just unintentionally, our chit chat just instantly turned into
more?
we were just like, it's nice to see you, it's nice to see you anyway, blah. Like
Yeah. Yeah, that sounds about right.
So we don't, we don't have to, um, expand on that. But actually, you know, how much do I wanna say that what I do is like decolonial work? That's been something I'm not sure of. Cuz right now I'm just like, I'm a pocket lady and that's what I wanna talk about and that's what I wanna do because that's my
pocket lady means?
Okay. So a pocket lady, Was introduced to me through my Mormon heritage. I was raised Mormon and it was a thing that would occasionally happen in the children's class, primary as we call it a church, uh, where a woman would come in wearing a garment that had a bunch of pockets on it and it was this like mysterious tangible activity where she was a nice lady and you got to like, choose a pocket and you didn't know what was inside.
You know, that was like the feminine as it's like hidden away. And then in this like act of masculinity, the object is revealed and it's really the revelation, right? That is so exciting cuz it's something like a plastic ring with a scroll and it that has a scripture or something. It's like, you'd be so bored if she just read you a scripture, but you got to choose and you got to wonder.
And so it's a way to enter stories. So I've appropriated that, made it a little sexier than the, um, Mormon version, but I,
you said that I just pictured you wearing this pocket garment, but with like great lingerie underneath
so the, the, the overall costume totally depends on my mood and I reserve the right to wear whatever I want. But, um, but the, the consistent thing is that I do have, I have like a side belt harness thing. That can have many strands of pockets attached. And there are all these physical anchors to different stories that I would tell.
Some are songs, some are poems, some are rumors, some are dares. And, um, and, and yeah. So I can, I have the freedom to customize that for wherever I am. You know, I could be at a festival, I could be at a bachelor party, I could be at a kid's birthday, I could be at a corporate event. I could be at your house.
You could be at mine, you know? And mine is a campus that's special for this, where I'm deep in character. So, um, my, when I take that on, I, I take that on quite, quite deeply as a sort of fictionalized autobiography of what I've really been living. Uh, but the way that I describe it, who I am in this character is a woman who has spent time in the other world because I was abducted by the fairies.
Now a lot of people don't know, but in Irish law, the fairies are quite different from this Disney version, which would be more of a, I think a Victorian portrayal of fairies is kind of wing it, NiFi or, or blessing creatures. Ferry's in Ireland are mischievous and sometimes predatory. And the ones who took me, you know, took me yes to torment, uh, and to amuse themselves with, and to exploit, but also to teach me their medicine and return me to this world because they want me to help humans so that we don't totally destroy ourselves.
Because if we do, then the fairies won't have us to play with anymore. You see what I mean? And our, our emotional activity is like such a delicacy for them. They just, they just ca they, they just can't bear to see us go extinct. So, so that's the premise. And through this, I get to do whatever I want. So I'm really excited about it.
Oh my God, this is so just exquisite.
So wait, can this be the time where, I'm gonna probably talk more about this in the intro, cause I think that's probably appropriate place for this. But I feel like this is the place where I wanna interject that, uh, after my stint here in Taiwan, when after moving from Portland where I am going, I'm going to be joining Zaley in Texas.
Um, . And so we've had a conversation about this offline. And I
the best matchmaker
Yes, exactly, because by way yes, of course I had to because Kylie matched us together and there's a whole story about that, which I should probably save reserve for another episode. But, um, I think I get to be, I think it's just, it's, I think it's gonna be wild.
I think I get the honor and the pleasure of being able to, I don't even know if I wanna say witness. I'm gonna be joining Zaley. I'm gonna be there. I mean, I'm going to be the in, in a way, I'm gonna be part of it, part of the performance. Cause I'll get to observe and also share my experience of like, of of, of, um, habiting a space with this character, which I think is going to be mind-blowing and wild, and also very different from anything I've ever done.
I said, I want to go on an adventure and here's an adventure. So
Oh yeah, I know you, you're in for it. And I'm so excited, um, because this, this, this land where I am, it really is special. It has been charged with many years of intention and even before me, even before I got this house, uh, it's, it's that in the hands of people who are kind of called to the stream. Um, so I am, I'm so excited and grateful for you coming.
You are gonna play a really big part in the storytelling aspect of it and, um, it's, it, seeing it as a, a storytelling campus is like, that's been the consistent thing since I was fortunate enough to, to get this home and get this land. So, and I have this fantasy, it seems a bit premature. I know I need to get more, um, experience with my act first, but of actually training other pocket ladies, and just like that, being a big part of the community.
Cuz I've thought for a while, like, oh, I should teach hypnosis. Like I, but teaching is very in my comfort zone and actually spending time in, I'm an artist. I don't have to explain how I do everything that I do. And I just get to do it for a while and not be creating curriculum around all of my experiences, which was, uh, something that I like about myself that I just naturally do.
And then I think partly it can become a way that I dissociate or cope when I am going through something super intense. And, uh, I think, I think
you're talking about. That's not a thing that I do at all. That's not why I'm a professional coach who has built curriculums out of all of her bad experiences. Go ahead. Carry on
right? And like, I think it's a very healthy, uh, instinct. But, um, but yeah, I've, I've, everything is both, but I, I've learned my le I I'm learning way more about, um, how to calibrate around that. And it's been, . Honestly, that's been the thing I've resisted the most is because that's the trust fall for me. You know, I'm not scared of doing standup comedy because I know how to write a joke and I know what it consists of.
And I also know it's not personal when you bomb, like that's just part of it. But to actually believe, not even like financially, this is possible for me to make a living this way, but like, do I have a right to do what I love, like to do? What excites me to do what comes easily, uh, to do what everybody tells me I should do, uh, and be that predictable that to be so boring is to just be a gay like pocket lady.
Like everybody expects And to just be witching a chant and en chant, um, you know, that was harder and, and particularly because it, because it's, for me, my version of the act is very musical. Like, it gives me permission to break out into these songs and, um, to teach songs and to dance. And I have some, some heartbreak around my relationship to music.
To being a music oriented person or even just being a performer. And so this is really like coming full circle for me on multiple different levels. Um, so I can't hype it enough. It's not clear. I'm just, I noticed that when this piece came into it, the pocket lady piece, because that's really the thing that makes it easy for people to imagine, right?
Like, what will you do when you come to my house? Um, everybody does want a story, like we honestly live for it and they're, they're more powerful than, than we can know. But to have that peace come in, that's when I felt like I could relax. Cuz I'm like, I could do this forever. I could do this with a broken leg.
I could do this as an old woman. And it transformed the way that I hold my boundaries with other people because I did not realize the extent to which I was entering relationships through this lens of my childhood, like religious trauma. And I say that without meaning to really, um, blame the church in which I was raised or anything.
But there was a compatibility issue between the emphasis on end times. From the religion in which I was raised, the LDS church to the kind of imagination I have. And, uh, it, it, it, it caused, you know, a lot of probably trouble for me growing up with just imagining the future when I had been told that in my lifetime that I was gonna see the end of the world.
And furthermore, that I was one of the people who was supposed to help everyone deal with it. Um, but
sounds like religious trauma for sure.
I didn't wanna, no, you don't wanna let anybody down when the stakes are that high.
Yeah.
Um, but yeah, not realizing like I was entering a lot of my relationships including, or especially my relationships with men through this like emergency network lens of like, I might need you.
I might need you. So I can't say anything that will cause you to cut me off in case one day I need to like barter for water with you or something like that. Like, that's how deep it goes. And now it's so simple, but now I'm like, I'm a pocket lady. I'm like, I'll be fine . Like, I know what I do, I know that it's good.
I know that it's needed. So, um, it might not make sense to other people until they come my way. But having that, having that confidence, like I've just, I've never felt so settled before.
Oh.
hmm. I think honestly, that's all that matters though.
Mm-hmm.
I do believe in energetics as well. Like I think that's a lot of, again, and I'm throwing up business parallel, but this idea of
what if we stop trying to make sense to people? I think there's liberation in that and just trusted ourselves and allowed that to be the thing that attracted people, the right people. I, I really do think, I know that sounds, Kylie and I talk about this all the time, wanting to run businesses in illogical ways that may seem that go completely against what I don't know, uh, like traditional business strategy is gonna teach you, but I really.
and, and not only believe, because that's worked for me. I've been attracted to other people who I've worked with who have totally changed my world. And I, where I was like, I don't exactly understand what you do, but I am just so fucking pulled to you and I trust my own instinct.
Yeah. I, I do think a lot of it is just being around bo like bodies, being around bodies who aren't belted by the fear, you know, or aren't belted by the obligations of everything being so mental, everything.
Mm-hmm. . Mm-hmm. . Yeah.
transmittable through speech. And, and I believe in the magic awards, obviously, and that's my trade.
But there really is something to just vibing, I suppose, is what it is. We all, we all know it. Um,
F.
and in terms of like the business plan, I mean, that was the story I was beginning to tell before a pbre was I went to Ireland and I had spent these years of lockdown and well before, but just like, especially then drilling exclusively down into what my curriculum was, what my timeline is, what I was gonna offer.
And I built this world that was so real that I thought I could just like board a plane and, and, and be brought there and it would be there for me. And then, I mean, when I arrived, and again, this was just after Covid, uh, travel restrictions were lifted. I, heart already had like seven cracks in it, you know?
And I, it was just being held together by this dream of stepping into the next thing. And then when that wasn't there for me, my heart just broke. And the only. The only way to put it back together was to give up on, on thinking that my mind was gonna get me out of it. And I knew when I came home and I was a mess when I came home, but I knew then, I was like, I, I have to sing about this first and I might have to sing for a long time.
And that wasn't like my plan, you know, but I, I just, I just knew I was never gonna be the same. And so I feel like my visual for it, as I got knocked onto my back in such a way, , that the only way to get up was to do one of those, like,
like break dancing moves
like flirt, you know,
Yeah. The break dance, move
or I was like, oh man, I'm making a show of myself now, but there's no way out of it except to just put all my energy into being like, you know, like back on my feet.
And so, yeah, I wasn't gonna come back cuz how, how I had felt comfortable being before. But I'm a teacher and, you know, these, these are the letters that I put at the end of my name that, that justify my taking up space or whatever. And to lean more deeply into, you know, what, what I can do. When I let it just be more about character and characters telling stories, um, and not just saying like, I'm doing this so that you can see what, uh, like a gay, like medicine woman would've been like. But also I'm doing this because there is still a place in this world for that
Hmm
and for that work. However, I have grace with myself and that I, I just, it just feels better for me and I'm less prone to get in my head if I understand it as a performance. And if I understand myself as a
Mm mm-hmm. . Yeah.
Yeah, you create a layer of separation, which to me then invites in all this play.
Mm-hmm.
yeah, it means that I can first of all believe that I'm clocking out. And it also, I think I've learned a lot, a lot of what I've learned about in the last half decade, let's say, is the sort of energy math of projections. And there's certain benefit to modesty in different ways where you just of make life easier for yourself.
And having been raised Mormon, I. have perhaps a special conscientiousness of how things can get away from you when you have a spiritual enthusiasm or when you endeavor to lead. You know, when people see you as a spiritual leader and how that can actually corrupt
Mm-hmm.
your intention or, you know, just like, just adds these things that I don't, I don't wanna deal with that, you know?
Um, I don't wanna take that on. Um, it, it almost felt too heavy for me even being like, I'm a practitioner, a clinical practitioner. Cuz then I felt like, um, you know, you have these questions, especially in, in this social media based industry of like, what do I share? What do I withhold? What, you know, like the whole transparency thing with what you're going through personally.
And I was like, you know what? I just wanna do this with characters. And particularly because a lot of my, my power in relating to clients is the direct, uh, the, the willingness or the love that I have for sharing my own story. But one of the things that I discovered to be really important in the Irish imagination or concept of self is the, the dignity that we afford our family members.
There's the loyalty there and. disclosing someone in our family messes up or betrays us. Uh, that we don't make sport of that or profit off that, but that we really do try to protect each other's privacy, even when we mess up. Like as we're struggling. And I can't tell the story of my own trauma without exposing people I love, I wouldn't want them to expose me, cuz I've certainly messed up in my human adventures.
And so making everything just fiction giving myself permission to like heighten it, fuse it with, um, other common narratives, uh, that's been such a source of liberation. And I, I feel now that I can like, speak really freely on the emotional front, uh, without compromising my values as, um, just in my relationships.
You know, even the people who've like really well, I will say in terms of like lovers, I just happen to believe if I ever loved you, I love you,
Hmm
I'm one of those, and I know the rage right now is like, chop it off, grind it up. Like watch them, you know, turn green and like go off into the sun. And I'm like, hmm, I will try that, that, but , it's,
I don't think I'm, it's, it's hard for me. That doesn't seem realistic, but anyway, but yeah, I, I
it doesn't, yeah, it doesn't so much work for me. It's not an organic desire. And I am though learning, like we talked about, like, we started talking about like, I'm, I am learning to let go in that, but I just, I wish people, well, I don't like to reduce someone's odds of growing and I don't wanna curse. Um, and, and I also think like, it, it wouldn't be a good lead.
Like I wouldn't necessarily wanna get close to someone if I knew like, oh, if things go bad, they're gonna get on a podcast and throw you under the bus.
Right.
like we're all just trying to,
Yeah.
know, that's what live
Like, like are are we friends or am I material right? Like that? Yeah. Yeah. Um,
real. I don't know. That's like real asshole. That's a real asshole move, I think.
Yeah. I mean maybe, maybe a throwaway line at a house party where nobody knows yet, but Yeah. Not, not on the record. So that's my line.
I'm curious to know, um, curious to know how this character reveals herself.
Hmm. That's a good question.
Hi. Um, I had the f I had a few different stories that I was writing at the same time. Um, well, actually it was all supposed to be like one novel, but multipart, you know, and you probably know as a writer, sometimes you just have to tell yourself like, oh, I, this is gonna go in the drawer of, you know, for my patchwork quilt.
Like, I'll use it later, but I don't know how. And it, it was getting to a point where I, it was just nothing but shoving things in that drawer. Like, probably none of this was coming together. And yeah, it was after really having my heart broken, I suppose, that I realized there's no way, there's no way that I can tell this story in these formats that I thought I would because I had everything I needed.
I had, like, I was gonna do a podcast and I had great tape, and I had an amazing mentor and fabulous people giving me their time. Um, and I, I still have that and I might still do that, but it's just when, like I said, when I came back, I knew. I'm, I'm, I'm gonna have to, like, make some music and it has to be for me first. And so it really, I guess, came through the music. Now, the character, the character is me, so the character is Zaley, but she does become known. She, she gets, she gets a nickname, which is Banta. And Banta basically means grown woman. She's, she's, she's all grown up now Um, but sure, um, I, I suppose it just came from the place, it just came from me spending time in this place, uh, where my family was dreamed. And I'm really, really lucky that I've got to spend so much time in this place. I'm talking about Car Queen now. Um, this, this is a peninsula in the county of Carrie or the Kingdom of Carrie, if you like, the kingdom of Carrie, which would be in the southwest of Ireland.
So when I would say if you don't know a lot about Ireland, and you might think, well, the place where I'd land on the map is Dublin, and I would say, Hmm, you should probably go to Carrie . Um, that the stories just tell themselves there. And I had a very, um, Awakening, fascination with Bridget, who is one of the patron saints of Ireland, the other being Patrick as you know. And, uh, Bridget, have we talked about Bridget before,
Not on the podcast.
have some familiar
I have zero familiarity. I don't know much about Irish.
So, uh, Bridget is, I think, well Bridget is so strong for our times because it's all in the name. Like she's a bridging force and specifically because she is a, a saint in the Catholic church in the patron saint of Ireland. But she, before that was a goddess. Uh, and so she's both, and she's been recognized and honored as both pretty much without an interruption, uh, and can still be recognized and honored as both without conflict.
In fact, before my family immigrated, they were very famously isolated because we didn't live on the mainland of Ireland even. We lived on islands off the coast. Um, and there we had a Christian tradition, but it wouldn't have been. it wouldn't have been the kind that you think of now. And it wouldn't have even been the kind going on, on the mainland three out, three, three miles away.
Uh, it was a more of a, a Christo paganism where, for example, you would pray to the moon as a goddess, but you'd call the Moon Mary, you know, this thing. So that's part of what I have been tapped like to help with as well, is we, we do have this false dichotomy and I, I see it acted out, especially, you know, on Instagram or whatever, online and American with American citizens, Irish citizens, like all of us.
And it's where I started as well, where there is this assumption or this fantasy that to connect with our authentic selves or to decolonize means that we're gonna kind of do like a reversal leapfrog over all of the Christian part
Mm.
you know, that's the yucky part. That's the embarrassing part.
That's the blood on our hands or whatever. And just to get back to this pure thing, and I think Bridget is such a gift because she, um, She represents the compatibility of these things that we've been told are at odds. Because the truth is what we really are is everything we've been, you know, and that's good.
That's not a bad thing, and that connects us with the rest of the world. So that, I think is just such a message of peace. But she, she's known for having three facets, and one of them is that she's the patron sainte of poets. And so I love to invoke her. Um, I feel my, my body invokes her, you know, because she's often depicted as a woman who looks like me or I look like her.
And, uh, that made me self-conscious at first, cuz I was, you know, it's sort of natural, I guess, to just be like, am I just obsessed with myself? You know, like this is just like another way of gazing in the mirror. But when you think about it, and as women especially, we can think about it, uh, the, that it's normal, that we long have a representation of divinity that we see ourselves in and that we can, we can relate to as like, oh, it also looks like that, you know?
Mm-hmm.
why like I was a little Catholic girl being like, okay, I Virgin Mary. What's up? Right? Because
Yeah.
yeah.
So that's, so these, this is going back to Kylie's question, that's kind of where the inspiration came part, part of where the inspiration came of this
where, where the character came from.
Yeah.
Oh my God, I had completely lost that threat. So great work, Kiva. I was just down the bridged
yeah. Down the ra, the rabbit hole. Yeah. No, I know. I wanna try and kind of come back and, you know, you know me. I like to come bring it back.
I appreciate that and I'm happy for Bridget to get the credit. I honestly, like, I don't know what the answer to that question is. I've just been trying to keep up. I've just been
mm That I can relate to.
Yes. Okay. They won't, they don't More
Yeah. Yeah. Just something like wildly unraveling and you're running along the path. Like, I don't know where this goes, but I don't think I stopped running, so let's see.
And I mean, it also just sounds like the beginning, it's not the end, it's like just the beginning of something.
Oh yeah. But I am having such a joy, like world building, that was my first, I mean, I maybe for all, all kids, but I would take it really far, you know, writing stories as a kid and having these binders with like, you know, sections for each character where I'd fake their signature and I knew their height and weight and like,
That was not that. I have to say, that wasn't my, my childhood was, I had a binder of Leonardo DiCaprio photos. Me and my friend were obsessed with Leonardo DiCaprio and it was more of buying these teenybopper magazines. So very different. I, you know, this
Oh my god. Eva, we would've not what to do with each other.
I, I
I would've been so terrified of how cool you were.
I don't know if That was very cool. It was very
But yes. But to me, you're, you're Leo, you're Leo Binder, right?
Yeah, because it was also like the time when Titanic came out, or no, wait, it
right? Yeah, of
but like, yeah, but I mean also undeniably, you know, I still go back to that time and think he was just such a hobby, but, um, yeah, very different. I think childhood
was a Micar girl personally. Micar, he only had, he only had two movies Really? But he was, he was a Pinta boy. He was the, he was Betty, the Jet Rodriguez in the Sandlot.
Oh my. Oh my God,
Oh,
yes. Also Huge
choice. Great choice.
Thank you. Thank you. Mike Vitara. George Harrison. They were my pit ups
Everybody who is listening to this podcast, who is between the age of like 39
Yeah.
Oh
got that reference and I think most would agree, um, that I didn't know his real name, but I've definitely
But I instantly knew exactly who you were referring
Totally. Because I always thought, I was like, who is this guy? And also the is truly one of my favorite movies. I think I've shared it as one of my joys before.
It's, it's a great movie. And you know that he's the real deal because he quit acting
Yes. I, I, I read about that. See, like, I thought he was so hot that I read about that and he's like, I don't wanna do this anymore. I wanna have a normal life. And I'm like, good for you. And also at the end, this is how much I love this movie. At the end. Spoiler. So when they show that Ben, that of this
If you haven't watched it yet,
Yeah.
This 20 year old movie
This movie that came out in 1994.
Yes. Benny, who goes on to play in the major league. They have the adult playing him is his actual older brother in real life. Just a little bit of trivia. Yeah. Anyway, so apparently, but uh, we would've gone along, gotten along in that front
we would've figured it out. Yeah.
Yeah.
But
like the sandlot, uh, little timeout. That
Yeah.
yes. I know we needed that. We were, we were getting off, off in the Stardust. so yeah, so, uh, I, I, like, I didn't, I just sort of meandered to your question before, but honestly I think like how I found the character was, um, that I offered myself over and over, if I'm being honest, to whatever I was needed for in this life.
and then, and I suppose I had a fantasy that I'd be very useful. And I think that came from like my Mormon upbringing and also the energy that my parents specifically brought into it. Um, and some of that is like this Irish American thing of, know, my, my dad's mythos about our family and whatever. Uh, but there is a process of learning to like walk in both worlds, as they say
Wait, can you, can you talk more about that? What do you mean by walk in both worlds?
So walking in both worlds, like that's a term you'd hear a lot when people talk about like initiation for shaman, uh,
right. Okay. That's what I thought you meant because we talk about that a lot. I feel like on the show, always trying to find the balance of like living in the in-between
Right. And so I'm not saying that I am a shaman or a shaman practitioner. I think of that as something really distinct from what I do. And I intentionally, I identify as a performance artist instead of even like a priest or anything like that, even though I understand it's all related. But, um, walking in both worlds.
So there's the world that we're in, right? And then like the world of possibility, I suppose, that you can intentionally enter and, um, Offer persuasions with I in order to affect the, the world that you would reenter. Mm-hmm. , I had a, a really wild, sloppy time figuring out how much I could handle of that work and, um,
sounds about right. Sloppy is a good, a good
yeah.
And it is for everyone, right? Like that, that's,
sloppy.
that's like, it's
trying to be God and human at the whole same time. If it's tidy, like you're doing it wrong.
Yeah, yeah, yeah, exactly. , I would agree
Well, I I, I've heard you talk about this Kylie, like your, uh, calibration work with the, with with that, the, the existential that comes up. And this is what I meant about it being so like, things get spooky and dark. It's not just like academic work, you know? Um, but that our security is actually taken away.
Our security and what is real and what is a good life and, um,
I was eating pizza the other day. , sorry. Just to give like an example. I was eating pizza the other day and looking out the window, and all of a sudden all I could feel with every fiber of my being was like, oh. , it's actually like my, the insignificance of me as a speck of dust in like infinite space was not, was for a moment not intellectual right.
And the like, actual fucking insanity that I am a thing that has consciousness was like so bonkers and like, I can't emotionally tell, right? I can like, tell the story that's that, that that experience and emotion is not my present reality. But it was like, you think it matters if like you, you know, like get a bigger living room
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
and it was just like, that was it. That was what I was experiencing for, you know, a handful of moments and then it passed and then I went back to eating my pizza. But yes, I think that is, um, messy and, uh, yeah. And I think the, the, the further we are willing to like walk in both worlds, the more likely we are to just be like fucking upended at random.
Mm-hmm.
Yeah.
you know,
Or, or like, once you've dwelt in the, in the Zone where it's all story
Mm.
where it's like, oh, hmm, this is a song singing itself. And I'm a note here being like, what are we doing? You know, am am I doing this right? Do I sound good? You know, like this kind of a thing. Um, but that's also the most beautiful place, the most magical place.
But then how do I reenter that to the place of consensual reality and rules? And like, you know, I did, I, I did feel at one point that I'm like, there's too much of me. I'm not now I'm not getting back in. Like, I, I, I, I sniff too many flowers. Like, this is more than I needed. And yeah, how do I fit? And it's like, well, you know, you'll, congratulations.
You're a performer now. You're a character actor now,
Yeah.
I got, I've had the exact same thought where I'm like, I don't think I fully realized that I was getting into when I signed this waiver. Like, I can't come back and also, fuck. Yes.
I know.
Yes, yes. Okay, so here's my next question because I have witnessed, I think because I just know you so I can observe your pattern of speech.
There have been moments when you have like been in transition into character
into my character.
and it's been really lovely to watch. I, I don't know if Eva has clocked it, but I,
No, I have it. That's amazing that you can't catch that, that you've
Um, so. Can we, can we, can we meet our beloved pocket Lady
Oh, see, here's the thing about her. You have to put a penny on the table. She wouldn't just tell you a story for the health of her throat. You know what I mean? No, actually, no, actually, actually. So the, the character is fluid and like, actually what you're hearing and, and good on you for picking it up is like, I do go in and out of this kind of quasi Irish intonation . And I would love to tell you that that's strictly me, uh, you know, working overtime, but it's actually more like my Lucy goosey boundaries with my own accent, which has always been a thing because for real.
Okay. So when my daughter was little and she'd watch Peppa Peg,
Mm-hmm.
she would say some words to the British accent. And I was
Oh yeah.
so happy about it cuz it was adorable. And the same thing sort of happened to me over Covid where. I was mostly talking to Irish people and I was mostly watching Irish tv. And the, just the way that I am, it's like, okay, well this is getting stirred in now.
But honestly, uh, the character, like I said, the character is daily, so it is me and it's the way that I talk. Um, but I'm telling the story of, here, here, let me tell you a little bit about where the story starts. And it's hard to say exactly when on a timeline, because if we're starting the story where I was abducted, it didn't happen how you would think.
It's not like they put a butterfly net over my head. Do you know what I mean? Fairies, it started, I w I put it at like nine years ago, and that's partly me piecing things together from the journals that I have. But the trick is that it went gradually, uh, so actually, and through my dreams. So it was more like I would have this reoccurring dream that I was in this house and that I was nursing this baby, and I was listening to this conversation of these people calling me Brik, and I would say, that's not my name.
And sure, they all look at each other and say, well, you, you, you always say that, you know? And it's just because, you know, you had this rough, you had this, this, this difficult labor, this traumatic birth with your child, and. But you we're your parents, that's your husband. This is your baby. And I'd wake up and know it was a dream for a while, but then over time, I guess I just, eventually the dream became more real and then I was there. So that's as best I know of how it started. And then this act, so this, this whole act has a name, all right? It's called Away With the Ferries. And when I originally conceived of it, I'll do a little name drop right now that I'm very excited. I'm working with Emerging Artists Leadership of Austin, that I got selected to be one of the emerging artists in leadership of the city this year.
And, um, so they're helping me to develop this, this act.
Hmm.
And at its core now, now obviously I've got like all of these possibilities of service. And while traditionally I, I do prefer to work with women and think that that's just the most bang for your buck of what you're really looking for is social change.
Like real radical change for a lot of different reasons. But, um, I, I am like pretty revved up on having kind of. No limits right now. Like whoever wants to call me in, I'm pretty excited to meet them and I'm pretty confident it's gonna be magical. But when I first imagined it, it, it, it was in more of like a, a clinical concept where I wanted to use these specifically Irish tropes of folks storytelling to reenter our conversations about mental health from a non colonial point of view.
And so the idea,
I wanna put a pause before we even jump into that,
Hmm.
just to acknowledge like, the beginning of your story and that bit of character. I just wanna note that for me, what was so interesting about it was because I think you've been very explicit about saying that this is, this is you as well.
You know, it's like, it's, it's you. It, it was really, there's something. . It was, I, I just noticed myself, it was really strange, like, um, and kind of wild and surreal of like being in conversation with you and observing a character, but also recognizing that it was you. Do you know what I mean? I don't know.
Kylie, do you know? I don't know. I'm curious what your, what your experience of that was.
yeah. Same. I can't really put it, I can't, I don't have good words, but co-sign
Yeah. . Anyway, anyway, I just ha I feel like we, that should, you should have just noted that
Well, I'm taking it as a compliment for you to say it was, uh, strange and surreal. I think you had one more word in there, but that's good. That's good for what I do. That's good. Um, and that's, that's like a portal, or that is the portal, I guess. . Um, and it's strange for me too, but like I said, it's so liberating, like to feel so this, this story about, you know, nursing a child that I suspect is not my own, or I don't know how I got it.
You know, I, so I didn't have that experience with my own daughter personally. Like nursing was something that we had really good fortune with and that we both really enjoyed. And, but, um, but I did have an experience with real postpartum vulnerability that spiraled for other reasons. And I like this about my character and my story, that it's an invitation for women.
They, you, you can project onto me or infer from what I share, whatever your own special experience was that maybe, you know, tipped you into a pattern that you need help coming back from. And so the, the way that I've built this world, it, it comes with the intention of that, that it's, that it's porous so that I, if your mind goes to an experience, whether it's your own first person experience or an experience of someone you've loved who's had to deal with postpartum issues, um, codependency, addiction, Uh, body image issues, any of these things can be projected onto it.
And it's like we're talking about the same thing, but because I'm talking about something surreal, because I'm talking about the ferries taking me, um, that's why it can hold anything that's specific to you. But of course, that's the version of the act that I, I I, it's embedded in all of it. Uh, or the, you know, the bright end of the stick is embedded in all of it, where all of the stories have a medicinal effect or a medicinal potential where we learn something about ourselves of either how we got into those dark places or how to self-soothe or what real community is, and these sorts of things.
But, um, I'd say, uh, that the, the thrust of that is really tied for me with just the joy of being silly and being in that fantasy world of play together and of being like, yeah, reach in my pocket and maybe my pocket is like a little bit on my boob. You know? Or like, just not having it get too serious, because that's, that's a temptation too.
And I just finding the sweet spot, that's been the whole theme and, and the sweet spot is a moving thing. And I
love, oops. Sorry, love.
no,
I just love what
love
I love what you're saying so much because I do think, like, I mean, you know, I've spoke, spoken on the podcast many times about how I had a, a intense postpartum experience with both my kids. And like, you know, marching my way out of that was not easy. And also there's just this way that we make the work of loving ourselves so much work.
Hmm.
And I really, I, I just am really lit up by, and of course it feels very Irish to like bring some fucking levity to the, to the, to the, the things that we, that we tend to think are hard and difficult and, um,
Yeah. And to give
that of itself. Yeah. Um, that in of itself actually feels like actually really revolut.
Yeah. Or even what you said earlier about how like, you know, you're gonna let yourself have this be festive and work at weddings and parties and, and, and maybe you'll do wakes one day. But I feel like that's, know. There, when I heard you say that, I was like, I think that we, I don't know, always feel like there's something admirable about doing the, the darker, harder work.
and I'm like, yeah, why don't we just let ourselves play
Yeah.
Why does it always have to be a fucking like drudgery?
Hmm. Well, I feel like it's just gonna take on a life of its own, you know?
Yeah.
And maybe, maybe this is as specialized as I get. I mean, it's certainly plenty. Um, but, but you know, and we've talked about this, that what I'm really excited for is to do baby showers. That was like the first one that came to me clearly.
Um, and it was before I even had the pocket lady part in place that I just knew. I want, I wanna host and facilitate and make something more out of this occasion than the, you know, kind of materialist exchange. It's, it's come to be, but a real. Like event of, of calling in the village and of visualizing, you know, what does this, this family, this, this household need.
And um, and, and when Kylie, when you were talking about, uh, we make, we make loving ourselves into so much work. I was hearing that feeling like, yeah, it becomes that. I think because in the world we're in right now, we do make ourselves responsible for filling our own cups so much. But in the communities that I have seen and have this genetic memory of where the village is so real, there are so many sources that fill our cup in terms of us, seeing us, touching us, remembering us knowing who we are.
And it's not all pure adoration, you know, like flagging would be actually a good part of this. Um, and a real act of love, you know, in context. But, um, we are missing that. And so much of the depression that I think people are facing, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's not because we're doing anything wrong so much as we're missing things that we don't know are supposed to be there.
And. Some of that is like, hmm, yeah. Like you need to be singing in a choir or, or you don't even know that you're good at tap dancing cuz you never saw anyone do it and certainly never thought of trying it. But that's a part of you that's like kicking around inside your guts, wanting to come out and you misfire.
We miss fire, we miss thinking that the moon is awesome because how do you even notice it when you know the street lamps are so loud?
Yeah.
These kind of things where it's, it's no fault to us, we just, it's been enough generations that we've forgotten what it's really like to live in an awesome world.
Yeah.
And so that's why I where theater and spectacle is such medicine, because that's what it touches.
It's like, hey, remember this when you didn't know everything well, you didn't understand everything coming at you and you were maybe confused for a moment and that was magical.
hmm.
Hmm. That's so beautiful. I love this idea of genetic memory too, because that's such a great way of putting it. Things that we are somehow know without knowing that we know them and they're inklings and they're not fully formulated. But, but, but you know, maybe you've been drawn to tap down seeing it. You have no fucking idea why you, because no one in your tanley has ever taped dance, but you just are drawn to this type of play and art.
And anyway, that's a beautiful idea and or a way of being, really. A way of being is literally what I was talk, I heard you talking about, um, you came onto this show, a saying that you wanted to be able to. take this time to let people know in, in your, in your world as well, like, you know, what you've been up to and h what your transition and what your, what your transition from Goo to Butterfly has been curious to know if there's anything else that you'd like to add to that. Do you feel good about what you've shared or is there anything else that you think you'd want people to know?
Well, we've certainly bet on a sprawl. Like, but
usual? As per usual? That's
fine. Right? Nobody's gonna complain about that. Hopefully,
Well, if they do, then they're probably not listening to this podcast,
Yeah, if he wants succinct and linear.
Yeah, exactly.
You've given up two hours into this episode.
Yeah.
Um, I do want people to know that, uh, the, the My Hub and where I am opening up about this and showing my behind the scenes, and really the hub of my offering is on Patreon. And so if people don't know what Patreon is, it's a platform where you can get behind the scenes with creatives that you're excited about and support us through a subscription based donation of whatever fits your budget.
So there's a big range, and for me, I'm trying to use it also, um, as a place of conference. So, because I have like so many ideas and things that shoot out of this world I'm building, I actually need some help with pruning that and being like, so what is lighting other people up? Which one, like, you know, should I write this essay or that one first, you know, or pull this prank or custom wise, you know, so I'm, I'm starting to get excited.
I, I was a little bit in the dread zone, I will admit a about doing, you know, fundraising for, for my own dreams. It's very easy to do for others, but I think that's pretty common stumbling block. But now I'm like, Hey, you know, there are these cool levels that I get to do where I get to show myself working on my choreography.
Um, you know, some, some really challenging for me, physical
Oh, that is
uh, physical endeavors, that, you know, where, because I have like, specifically I have a C coach in Australia, and so we meet over Zoom. So I have all these zooms of this o of this guy like telling me how to get upside down and me not knowing what he's talking about and trying it anyway.
And
and I'm sure looking a fool, which is why, which is why I love, sorry, I have to say Patreon is something that people talk about a lot, but I have, I've never actually, um, subscribed before. I'm actually curious, Kylie, do you subscribe to anyone's Patreon? Yeah. And so anyway, I'm glad you sort of like, I know what it is, but I'm glad you outlined it.
Ai and also you're also understand helping me understand the value of this more and more. I'm sure people use it differently, but I'm like, yeah, there's always this idea that people, you know, that like Beyonce is like, we don't see the behind the scenes of like how fucking hard it was and all the times that she fell over when she was trying to hang upside down and do something crazy and how messy and sloppy and ridiculous it all looks behind the scenes.
And I'm like, especially, uh, if, if, you know, if as an audience member you are also an artist and you wanna see how other artists what their process is behind the scenes, so you don't, you don't feel so alone and also understand that it doesn't happen overnight and that it's like messy. I'm like, oh, that sounds actually incredibly, um, compelling all of a sudden in a way that I had never thought about it.
because we do with like the, Ooh, you better post every day. Or you go down the algorithm like that. That really fried me as a creative, cuz I'm like, You know, I do love sharing. I don't want a lot of this I'm doing alone, and that's not necessarily my first choice, but it doesn't mean that I wanna publish what I'm doing
Hmm.
there's like, there is an element, this is the feminine again, of like, I wanna go in the womb.
And I, I want there to be some mystery, some, some teasing. You know, I want there to be a reveal. I, I don't wanna diffuse the magic for myself, but at, but I did, I have gotten to the point where I'm like, Hmm, this I wanna share. And so some of it is yes, me, my face turning very, very pink. If you're into that, while I'm either upside down or embarrassed, but I do.
All right. Um, and, and also though, just things I've realized, like I really love doing my hair. And so one of the levels is yeah, you know, just like, hang out with me while I chat to you and do my hair chat to you about what I'm working on or this, um, this notion that I have, uh, called a dancing virgin, which is when you dance to a song you've never heard before.
Um, so you can, you can give me a song,
I love these ideas.
I've never that I've never heard. And then also I study the Irish language. And so there's a level where I share around that. And even if you're not trying to learn the Irish language, um, it's, I think a, a, a really compelling way, like a, a really poetic way to enter that world.
And so, yeah, there, that's where. I'm just coming at you sort of as I, as I really am doing this work of, uh, being a performance artist who happens to have a background in, um, clinical hypnosis and is available, you know, to work with one-on-one. But then otherwise, at least in terms of on the internet, I just wanna be in character.
I just want to work, you know, I just want to do, do my world and then I guess I'll play it by ear in the 3d, you know?
I mean, I guess that's all you can really do. I mean, we are all playing it by ear. If we think there's a plan, we're diluted
Yes.
I love that. Okay. How you guys feeling about
I mean, I could talk to a, this could go on for a thousand hours. And also this does seem like a natural place to do joy.
To do joy. Oh, right. The what's giving me joy? Um, well, can I say two things? Because one is just
Absolutely.
related to my. Patreon, I guess it's giving me joy that I am finally at the stage where I'm telling people about it. Cuz they set it up like a year ago and was just, wasn't sure what I could commit to. Um, and you can find it, Patreon is P A T R E O N.
So it's patreon.com/everything we need because that's my philosophy under all of the work that I do, is that we may, we, we will never have everything we want, but we will always have everything we need to feel grateful for this life. And you know, sometimes we just have to be reminding each other of that and especially with the ecological crises that we feel, um, around us.
I think that's really important to remember. So if, if anything I've said or anything I'm into gets people curious, that's the best place to find me. It has my social contact on it and like booking info and stuff like that. So I would love support there. And that feels good to finally say. And the other thing is that my daughter just started writing chapter books and I am so thrilled.
Is this, is this, um, like with your, a part of your in, let she start doing this on her own? Was this from, with your support from you?
I mean, no, I mean actually she started doing them with her dad.
Ah,
but, uh, surely we cannot be fully separated in, in terms of who's winding the other up. Like, uh, but she, she definitely, it's definitely runs in the family and she definitely got the gift because they are not badd stories. They, the, she comes up with some, turns a phrase, then just have me like kicking my feet like, so yeah.
Not a hard answer there.
That's really cool.
Mm-hmm.
Alright, I have a,
we need.
yeah, Well done. Well done.
Yeah.
Um, I have kind of a funny share, which is, uh, my joy is I was in a shitty mood today,
Hmm.
which I mean, um, if those are like days that exist all the time, whether it was a day or a moment, but I think the joy for me is that, I am enough of myself that I didn't feel undone like it, like I was mean to my kids
I was just like, I just had no patience. Um, you know, whatever we all have these days, but I offer it. It's the answer that's coming up in response to Joy because I think we, I personally have spent a lot of my life trying to get somewhere and I have wanted that somewhere to be a place where like, I was good all the time, however I'm defining good and being able to have a day where I'm just in a fucking shit mood and I'm not very nice to the people that I love and things feel hard. And also I love myself
Mm-hmm.
and also it feels like I don't need to completely disassociate from my bad mood, even though I, that's an option and that's fine. Um, that feels joyful cause that feels like my own willingness to be alive in my own life.
Mm-hmm.
Mm mm-hmm.
That's really beautiful. Yeah. When we finally get to place, to a place where we're okay, not being okay, I mean, simply put, anyway, that's a very liberating place to be.
Yeah, and I think I had this story for a long time that that place was like this kind of zen neutrality and like, maybe that is for some people and, but like, that's not actually me or how I roll, right? Like I, uh, I, I feel things in a big way. And so today what I felt in a big way was like honestly a lot of anger.
Mm-hmm.
uh, I'm grateful at my own capac for my own capacity to like be present with that and not make it too wrong. And I don't know.
I feel that in what I said earlier about like, oh, it took me this long to realize that a woman like me is allowed to exist, cuz that includes the anger. Do you know what I mean?
Yeah.
The anger that I have, the greed that I have for like more magic, more fun, more like, more, you know,
yes, yes, yes.
Oh,
Yes.
yeah, so you're like, we finally stopped excluding this part of ourself that is the part that I guess doesn't make our parents proud or whatever.
Do you know what I mean? That we're
Well, right. And it wasn't like, it wasn't like, I was like, oh, I love this angry me and like, I'm so happy being angry. It was like, no, I am just like in a vicious mood. And also out of that I could have enough sound floor. In a one point I told my kids, I was like, everyone needs to be quiet because I will be mean and I don't want to be right.
Like I, there was like a level of transparency that was like, I don't have the capacity to be nice, so you all need to help me
Yeah.
But, um,
Ugh.
but yeah, it, and I think also Eva, you and I have talked about this before, sometimes like the, like am I going crazy thing? I think my version of that is sometimes I have moments where I'm like, has anything changed?
Like, am I actually exactly the same neurotic fucking weirdo? Uh, which the answer on some level is yes. And also a day like today makes me feel like, okay, we've moved the needle in some, like, it in some capacity to be less of a nutcase. Because,
Because you could
I wasn't that case today. And it was fine.
And you were able to hold space for it and Yeah.
or I've said, I discovered, you know, that the only, now I hold theories very lightly. I, I've, I've taken a practice of humility in that I am not making claims about how the universe works, even if, I'm pretty sure I know like um, just cuz the universe is a shape shifter too, I'd say. But, um, but yeah, I, I, the cons, I do, I'm a human and I need like, some thread running through it.
And I would say it's just about having a sense of humor with myself at this
Mm.
That like, maybe I'm not meant to be good or, or not meant to be as good as I wanna be. Maybe that's the joke is like, oh, let's make this girl who really, really, really wants to be perfect and she, you know, is just such a prankster.
That she can't not like short sheet herself. And so that's my divine purpose is I am just giving the cliffs a chuckle. And that's how I felt when I was thrashing about in Ireland. I was like, I came here thinking I was gonna be helpful and, you know, all this work was gonna pay off. And I think I'm, I'm, I'm just like, I'm, I'm just like a puppet right now, like making the mountains laugh and that has to be good enough for me,
Mm.
know? And then get over it. Get over what a fool I felt and move on to whatever the next thing is. So that's the, that's the finding the sweet spot again. Hmm.
Yeah.
I mean, I do find that every time I'm close to God, I'm laughing because it's all not that fucking serious. Like it is hilarious. It's all just, there's definitely levity and humor in a lot of it. Um, but I feel like we, I often can't see unless I'm not so identified or actually the humor helps me be not so identified in a way.
Hmm.
Okay. I will share my joy for this week, which Kylie is actually very similar to yours, which is that,
Hmm.
uh, I'm actually, this is gonna sound silly, maybe, or at least I feel silly. It's taking me a long time to just acknowledge that I am in grief and to just like really. Be in it. I mean, I keep saying I know that I'm grieving, but there has been real resistance to it just being like, and what I'm referring to is, you know, if you haven't listened to previous episodes that I'm, you know, have ended my relationship and I'm still in the aftermath of that and transitioning my whole life and packing up everything and feeling uprooted and ungrounded, and there's just been a story that's like, there's no reason for me to be sad.
This is a really good thing. I'm really happy about this decision. Both Adam and I are, and that's true. And so just me wanting to rush the fucking process of getting to the other side, which is just hilarious because this is also the work that I, that I teach on and, and work with my clients on is just like to be exactly where you are.
But, um, anyway, I think there's something that's just been liberating, , like just to acknowledge and be aware of and give space to suffering and grieve without having to Yeah. Resist it. Ugh. It's such a fucking relief. It's a fucking relief. And so it's a non-traditional joy, but it just, it's kind of surprising to me how long it took me to get here.
It's, um, yeah, we're recording this in, I don't know when this episode's gonna come out. This is probably gonna come out later in 2000, or early in 2023, but we're recording this in December at the, in mid-December. So, um, anyway, and I, and I. Giving myself grace for more grief.
Yeah,
And Kylie, you've been also very pivotal and just continuously, continuously reminding me like, I think what you're experiencing is just grief. And me being like, uh, I dunno.
helpful. Cause I feel like it's like the, the one card that I just keep like sliding under your door, like I think this
it's grief. And I'm like, I'm like, no, but I don't, I don't know. I don't know if it's really not like, I think it's something else. I don't know. Just being like a real dummy about it. And so, um, yeah, that has been extremely helpful. And then also vocalizing it to people around me so that to give myself more permission to being grief.
Like, hey, sorry if I'm being kind of crotchety, , like, same thing with you, I guess is what you're saying, but the awareness of where we're at gives us a skillfulness, a skillful means to deal with it. So I'm very grateful for that.
Yeah.
Yeah. All right. So z I mean, we usually, is there part, how can people find you on the gram, if that's something you wanna share?
I don't know. Uh, like I, the best thing to do is to just go to the Patreon cuz in the about or whatever about me, I put where I am. And right now I haven't, I don't have clarity on how I'm gonna use Instagram.
Cool. Well, hope I'll say hopefully that's something I'll help you with and I think for people who are interested. Yeah. Um, I'm excited to share about our joint adventure
Yeah,
To come. . To come.
It's, um, it's, it's gonna, like I said, yeah, it's gonna take on a life of its own. Um, so that's, that's the best place to find me. I, I plan to, squat there for a while and, yeah.
cool.
So I hope people will say hi.
Yes.
Please
Thank you so, so, so much for this exceptionally nourishing conversation. I really adore you.
It was great to have you.
Well, thank you two so much. And for what you do, and, you know, the sharing that you talk about, I mean, it's, it's pretty extraordinary. It's, it's good to be reminded that we're not the only ones going through it. Neva, I hope for you that when it comes to the grief, that just because you are someone who helps people with it, you don't feel like, you know, a pressure to do it at, at some like AP level because
Mm.
Yes.
know like, like you or you can take comfort, right.
And knowing like the reason your job is a job is because everyone needs that help.
Yeah.
So everyone needs that help when we're in it.
yes. And I think the humility and the spaciousness around that again, has given me a greater capacity, I think for at just everything around me too. And that's just how it works, right? When we allow ourselves to tap into our own shit more spaciousness for other peoples too. More available.
Anyway, thank you for saying that.
Mm-hmm.