In this episode, we sit down with Reverend Gerlyn Henry, a Toronto-based Anglican priest whose presence online has been quietly (and sometimes not so quietly) shifting how people think about faith, the church, and what it means to live in alignment with what you actually believe.
In this episode, we sit down with Reverend Gerlyn Henry, a Toronto-based Anglican priest whose presence online has been quietly (and sometimes not so quietly) shifting how people think about faith, the church, and what it means to live in alignment with what you actually believe.
Reverend Gerlyn shares openly about learning discernment in a world that constantly demands a reaction. About making mistakes publicly and letting those moments shape her integrity rather than collapse her into shame. About the responsibility of having a “pulpit” in the modern age—whether that’s a church or a TikTok account.
Toward the end of the episode, she shares about her recent trip to Palestine and what it was like to witness firsthand the realities on the ground. It’s a sobering and humanizing look at how narratives are shaped, how separation is maintained, and what it means to actually see something for yourself.
What we cover in this episode:
Reverend Gerlyn's bible recommendations:
1. First Nations Translation
2. The Bible Project’s God’s Story as told by God’s Children
3. The Woman’s Bible by Elizabeth Cady Stanton
4. Harper Colin’s Study Bible (for a standard study Bible)
5. True Images Teen Bible (for young teen girls, not affirming. Needs a conversation around gender roles and sexuality, but will help child actually enjoy reading the Bible)
5. A Book of Belonging by Mariko Clark (For young kids)
5. The Action Bible & Bible Project’s Illustrated Summaries for Biblical Books (for people who like comic style)
Other Links & Resources:
https://www.instagram.com/gerlynhenry/
Learn more about solidarity trips to Palestine: https://www.friendsofsabeel.ca/
Eva's instagram: @iamevaliao
Eva's free course on AWAKENING
Kyley's Instagram: @kyleycaldwell
Kyley's free mini-course
Eva + 2
Eva: [00:00:00] Hello. Hello Universe listeners. It's Eva here and we have a really special episode for you today with Reverend Ly. Um, you may be familiar with her work on social media, TikTok, and Instagram, and if you're not, I highly recommend you go and check her out because her content is just. A breath of fresh air.
I mean, we've been doing this show Hell Universe for eight years now and I think this is the first reverend we've ever had the chance to, we have ever had the chance to sit down and speak with. And we've had people from all walks of life bringing in all sorts of different kinds of wisdom and magic around different [00:01:00] religion and and spiritual beliefs.
And we've had people from the church too, but never a reverend. And I can't tell you how refreshing it is to speak with someone from. You know, the institution of, of religion who really, I think is here to preach the word of what Jesus is really all about. And for a lot of us, we have a lot of cynicism and, you know, skepticism about religion and the church, which is, you know, understandable.
And we unpack that together here on the podcast too. Um, but here is Reverend Lyn who's just, um, you know. I think of the people and for the people and is really in tune, I think, with, uh, what it is that people really need and want when they come seeking for something, um, at, in, at the church. Um, so Reverend Jerilyn is the incumbent of Holy Wisdom Anglican Church in.
Toronto Canada. And, um, she also shared about her time in [00:02:00] Palestine. She was there recently and about what it's like to hold that space between, you know what I, I see her as a bridge really. Um. Between skeptics. Um, and, but people who want to come back to religion or the church in a way that feels in, congruent in, that's congruous, you know, to their, their beliefs and their values.
And I think that's something that Kyley Hass also been struggling with. We had a past episode where she, you know, Kylie's like, you know, she goes back to church and that has been a big deal for her as someone who has had church trauma in the past. Right? And so, anyway. Speaking with Reverend Jerilyn, just could not have come at a better time.
And she is just a fresh of breath, uh, a breath of fresh air. She is a delight and um, I really enjoy this conversation and I hope you will too.
Kyley: All right, everybody. I'm so excited for our guest today. We're gonna have such a great conversation. I already know it. Reverend j Lyn, welcome to the show.
Gerlyn: Thank you so much. I'm so excited to be here.
Kyley: Yeah. So, as you know, we love to [00:03:00] start every episode by asking what life is teaching you right now.
Gerlyn: I think for me, especially being online, somewhat more like in the, in the newer times, I've only been really online in the past, like year or so. I'm realizing that not everything that is urgent is mine to carry that.
Kyley: Mm
Gerlyn: Being online, there can be immediate things and important things, and I'm learning the discernment between what is mine, where does my voice really fit, and where do I just need to sit and listen and hold space for voices that should be speaking on that.
Kyley: mm Oh. How do you find that? Discernment. Please
Eva: Yes, exactly that. That's what I wanna know because I, I
Kyley: what's your process?
Eva: I can relate and I think it's the discernment that's challenge that can be challenging, right? It's a learning curve.
Gerlyn: Oh, absolutely. I think I learned that boundary by like making the mistakes of like constantly offering my voice. Voice in spaces where I wasn't adding value.
So something we learn in like the church in terms of like what we do on in the pulpit is sometimes we're [00:04:00] just to proclaim the story. Like this is what happened. And in it you figure out like what it means to you. And then there's like a teaching moment where we're called to discern and decipher and say like, this is what I want you to consider, it means for you. So one example of how I kind of do that online is like last week there was a pastor, uh, pastor Vasquez Cortes Vasquez, who was detained by ice without a criminal record and denied a Bible. And so lots of clergy were asked to just like tell the story, proclaim that story, and other times. It's not just to say, Hey, this is what I saw on the news here for you to know.
Other times it is to say, here's what I saw in the news and here's why. For example, like Trump isn't the anointed one. The anointed one actually suffers. And so to actually do that connecting work, and if I don't have like a reason to proclaim a story or to offer some value, I've learned like, okay, this is not for you Jolyn.
Just just sit back and let people offer value.
Eva: Hmm. [00:05:00] I love, well, my first takeaway from that was, I mean, I love that you have this format to help Disti help you distinguish, but also what you said be even before that was just like you learn through making a lot of mistakes. I think it's like you, you put out your energy and your time and, and I'm, you know, for, in my experience, it, there's like a backlash of either it's going nowhere or I've burned out, or I've said something that I didn't, I was just, you know, making noise when it was.
Um, and that's always hard. It, that's the best advice. It's not like the advice that I love to hear because I, I have my perfectionism tendencies, but it's also the truth, like we learned through trial and error.
Gerlyn: Absolutely. I even have like a series in my Instagram that says, like, or, or TikTok, that says, mistakes have made that have made me a better priest.
I think it, it's like so important to show people that like we make mistakes and like those mistakes make us better people.
Kyley: Yeah. Can you share one of, can you share one of your [00:06:00] mistakes that has made you a better person?
Gerlyn: sure. I'll share like a, a not so controversial one. I mean, maybe this is controversial. I dunno. Uh, just like a couple months ago, so we in, I'm from Canada, Toronto and weed is legal here. And so we have dispensaries like, like we have coffee shops. They're everywhere. And we have a dispensary, like 200 meters from where I live right across from the church. And I don't usually go to the dispensary in my collar just 'cause I don't stop by there. So like, I went one evening, had a hoodie on, and I was just like in there. And I see this kind of parishioner, like, so he comes to like our meal programs and he comes to hang out at the church pretty often, but he doesn't really come to like worship. So, but we know each other. I've known him for like years. I see him and he sees me. And so we just, we don't speak to each other. We just kind of like are different parts of the dispensary. And then he has this mannerism that can be this. Can be alarming to people who don't know. He's kind of like a volatile with his, like with his arms. [00:07:00] And I could see that the tension was building between the owner of the dispensary and like my, my friend here. And I remember feeling conflicted whether I should go up there and say, Hey, like, just so you know, I am the priest right across the street. I know him, don't worry. He's like, really harmless. Just give him his weed. But I spent like 30 seconds just pretending like I was looking through all the stuff that was there. And then as things like kind of got worse and they started saying, oh no man, you gotta leave. I finally mustered up the courage to like go up there and say, Hey, I'm, I'm the priest across the street. I know him really well.
He's fine. Just give it Miss Weed, please. And then they were like, oh, you're the priest, huh? I was like, yeah. And as he, and so they finally said, I'll tell him the weed. And as he was leaving, like all he does was like, look at me and nod. In that moment, it was like the story from Peter and Jesus where the cock crows and I just felt like all the [00:08:00] betrayal come up.
So like to leave this person that I've known so well to fight for himself and feel so anxious while I could have just stepped in, like to protect my own image, right? I didn't want them to know that I was the local priest. That's a mistake. That made me better 'cause I don't think I'll do that again.
Kyley: Yeah.
Eva: Wow. First of all, great story. I'm just captivated, but also what you're reminding me of, and Kyley and I recently had a conversation similar to this, is that there is such medicine in the ouch. Like when you feel the pain of like, that didn't feel good, like that's how you learn. It's like something about that felt out of integrity or it felt wrong, or it didn't feel true, or it didn't feel good in my body and my heart.
It's,
Kyley: than, sorry, love. I'm interrupting you.
Eva: I, it is just, there's something precious about that, if we can frame it that way. 'cause then we, you know what I'm, 'cause what I'm hearing you say was that you were like, you learned from that because something about that didn't feel good to you, but it's beautiful because [00:09:00] then it shows you, I don't wanna do that again.
You know? Or it teaches you how to, how you wanna show up or how you can show up next time. Yeah.
Kyley: Yeah,
Yeah.
Eva: You were gonna say Kyley?
Kyley: I was just gonna add, like, which is different than the not feeling good of like, Ooh, I'm, this is uncomfortable. I'm, I'm, I'm vulnerable, or I'm like, you know, stretching or, you
know, exposing some, you know, I'm, I'm, I'm doing the, the. Important but uncomfortable thing that's a, doesn't feel good.
That's like, you know, when your muscles are sore after working out doesn't feel good. Right? It's,
um, versus that doesn't feel good of like, oh yeah, something was, um, something was off there. And what I love about your story also is, um, it doesn't sound like shame took over, right? Because I feel like when we have those moments where we misstep or we're like not in alignment with our value or our truth, um, it's just so easy for shame to get its foothold and then, and, and then we [00:10:00] stay there instead of it being this moment that teaches us how to move forward differently.
Gerlyn: yeah,
absolutely. And, uh, can I just say, I, I just gonna show one thing, like when I was younger that shame si spiral was so ingrained in me. Like, and so part of why I am. I try to be vocal about the mistakes I make. It's for my, my own self to remind myself that if I acknowledge it, it's
all that, all that more easier for my body to loosen its grip on the mistake.
Eva: hmm. Yeah. I love that.
Kyley: Yeah.
Eva: Okay. So to me, I feel like this is an interesting segue or good segue into, um, well, I think why we love your work and why we resonate with you so much and what I'm so fascinated by is how I think you do such an amazing job of, of, you know, representing the church, but in what I consider to be a very open, [00:11:00] um, maybe in some ways like non-traditional way.
And before the podcast we had started talking about like, the, the conflict between how to trust institutions in a time where we don't trust institutions and people just generally feeling conflict around religion and the church. And then here you are. I just, I hear you are representing something that I think is so beautiful, which is like the core of what, you know, I think religion is about and truth and love and connection and compassion.
Um, I don't know, do you know what I'm trying to say? Kyley? I mean, I also think Kyley, this is why you love
Kyley: this is a question that is, you know, near, you know, near and dear to my personal journey. Yeah, I just, um, I think we, I would love to hear you speak for us for a little bit about what it is like to, you know, be a representative of an institution in this moment where there is such mistrust of institution.
And I think also a [00:12:00] lot of, um, pain about the institution of religion. And, uh, I, I see you in some ways, uh, I dunno if you see yourself this way, but I see you in some ways as like this bridge figure for, for a lot of folks. I think probably especially online, the people who maybe have been on a deconstruction journey or have, you know, felt. Betrayed in one way or another, and here you are standing up. I feel as every time the Pope says something right now about like, don't wipe out an entire, you know, civilization. I'm like, wait, the Pope, the pope's, the pope's a good guy. What?
Gerlyn: Right?
Eva: Yes, exactly. Yeah.
Gerlyn: Yes. Oh, you know, I've been making, that's, that's such a good question and I think it's so relevant. I've been making content for five years, and only in the past year has it really resonated with people. And the first five years I started making, or the first four years started making content for myself.
I got ordained and married and got my first job. [00:13:00] In 2020. It was COVID, it was lonely. I had just left my like Amazon warehouse job and became a priest. And I just felt so like alone, like during COVID as all of us did, right? Because we couldn't touch each other, we couldn't see each other as I created TikTok just to document what it meant to be a young priest who was brown in this time. And people were like interested. And I found a lot of joy. I was like, Hey, look at this pew. This is why we have pews. Look at this altar rail. This is actually to prevent goats and it isn't like a, a sacred space initially. And so people were like, oh, cool. And then there were these few moments where it shifted Roe b.
Wade was overturned in the US and I made like a. Kind of a somewhat pastoral video. Not necessarily a logistical video, but to say, I live in a er, rectory. I live in a church house. I have a dog. If you need a space in Canada, come over. [00:14:00] And that video resonated with like 40,000 people. And I got this like influx of followers and I was like, oh, like bridging what the, the representation of the church with the representation of the world making that bridge is, is resonating with people. But I didn't like understand it enough to continue that work. So I went back to talking about candles and kind of Anglican stuff. And it wasn't until Trump was elected again, the second time that I remembered a sermon that I preached right after the White House in insurrection of the White House on January 6th. I preached a sermon and it was an excellent sermon. And I talked about how like the new year is dawning on us. We need to be like new people. And after I preached that sermon, my supervisor at the time called me in on like a Tuesday and he said, you know, you forgot something really important. And I was thinking, oh my God, did I forget to talk about Jesus?
Like, did I forget something theological? And [00:15:00] he said, no, you didn't address January 6th at all. That was cowardice. And you cannot be a coward at the pulpit. And so when Trump was elected so close to January 6th, right? And my supervisor had just died, those words came right to the front of my mind. You cannot be a coward at the Pul. And it was that day that I kind of reframed my online space as a pulpit that yes, I'm speaking to a hundred people in person, but I'm speaking to like millions of people through this like three minute segment. And I think I represent the church and, and I'm still like surprised by how much it resonates with people.
I'm like daily caught off guard that people are saying this is new information. 'cause for me, like this is baseline. The fact that we're inclusive and, and progressive and focus on liberation of the poor and like that's baseline. And there is this quote that I say almost in every single [00:16:00] podcast that I'm on, I think his name is Ret Kolin. And he says, your children aren't leaving the church because they don't have faith, but they're leaving the church because you taught them the words of Jesus. And they realize that the church isn't following those words. They're not leaving the faith because they're not Christian. They're leaving the faith because they are Christian. And I think that is like. It's so helpful for people to hear. And so today, when people are, are weary of the institution, I say a couple of things. One, you are right to be weary. The church has caused a lot of harm as an institution and continues to in the way of like Christian nationalism today. And so to acknowledge like you are right on the mount, right on the, the dot, you should be weary. And two, your weariness is a, is a sign to, to the fact that you are a prophet. But if you can find meaningful things to say to your weariness, that's prophecy. That's exactly what the prophets in the Bible have been doing. And I think [00:17:00] reframing institutional awareness in that way as an actual call to being profits in the world, that has been really helpful and revolutionary.
Eva: Mm-hmm.
Kyley: Oh, uh, you immediately made me cry.
Gerlyn: Ah.
Kyley: uh, which happens a lot on the podcast, so no listener is surprised by this. But, um, uh, when you said you're right to be weary, I felt something softened inside of me. Like, oh, I didn't know. Some part of me needed to hear those words. I think specifically, and I think this is probably why people resonate with you so much, is like, uh, so, you know, as many listeners know, I grew up Catholic.
It was a really, really important part of my life, um, until I was in college and I was like. Uh, I can't really get behind a lot of this. Like no women priests and gay marriage and, you know, uh, sex abuse crisis. And, uh, they, I have to, [00:18:00] uh, I have to bounce. Um, ironically, I was at a Catholic college and I read, um, portrait of the Artist as a young, as, as of a, a young man, which includes this like delicious, like anti-Catholic, you know, Catholic 'cause um, kinda the violence of Catholicism exposed chapter.
And that was, that was like the nail in the coffin. Um, anyways, um, but it's always been, it's such a formative part of my heart, right? I have so much like softness and love for it, even as it has for a long time. Hasn't been a home that I could return to. And there's like grief in that and all those things. Um, and I have a lot of like people in my life who can resonate with like, you know, I have, I have lots of former Catholic family and friends, um, and. There is something so generous about hearing, hearing from someone within an institution, even though it's not the same institution. Right. But in, uh, um, saying your weariness is valid.
[00:19:00] And I think that's part of why, um, I'm sure that's why so many of us like, are like stuck, you know, soaking up your medicine like, like we're thirsty. You know? It's like, oh, here's somebody within this institution that we wanted to love or within a version of this institution that we wanted to love, who's saying your weariness matters?
And it, it, yeah, I'm like tearing up again in a way that, um, I'm surprised by how much a little part of me needed to hear that. So,
Gerlyn: Hmm.
Eva: Yeah. Well, it's probably confirming something that you've, you know, that you've felt that this, this torn feeling of like, this is something that you love, but also you have been wary. So it's validation of this experience that you've been on,
Kyley: Well and it's just interesting 'cause it's not like, uh, if before this conversation I wouldn't have thought. That I, I wouldn't have thought I had questioned, I questioned the value of my weariness.
Right? And so it's interesting how much I just had a, such a strong reaction to you saying that. 'cause it wasn't like I was in judgment of my [00:20:00] weariness.
Right? But,
um, I think that just speaks to how to how much our, um, how deep our longing is, right? Like, um, for these institutions to uphold the promise that we know that they could have.
Eva: Mm-hmm. Yes. Okay. And so this is where I'm really fascinated by your experience, Reverend Lyn. If, like you said, that, um, there's like, there's a dissonance happening where just whereas like you're, you know, the things that you're speaking to, you feel like baseline, but it feels revolutionary to other people, I think, and that's like this weird disconnect because I think the reason people are drawn to you is because I don't think it is the baseline.
That's where, that's where I feel, that's where my resentment and, and, um, yeah, resentment towards the church comes up because I'm like, but this is supposed to be the baseline and this [00:21:00] is what we've been always talking about, but we've strayed so far. So far. And then, you know, you're like this refreshing, like ice cold cup of water, you know, we've been in like the desert and so, but I wanna know, but I wanna know, like, how do you feel about that?
Because, and do you feel conflict with other insti, like other people in the church who are not representing the same thing? You know, I, what is that like for you?
Gerlyn: [00:22:00] [00:23:00] It, it makes me as, I only like recently realized, like maybe in the last year, just how, like, how large that gap is between like what I think is like faithfulness and what it means to be part of the church and, and, what is being taught out there.
And I think
one of the big reasons for that disconnect is how easily the church is co-opted by its proximity to power.
We are a power hungry people, and I think partly why we are is because like the initial movement. Was so rooted in solidarity and disruption and [00:24:00] grassroots, and that people wanted to hold onto that movement, but in a way that was convenient. And so the only way to make that that shift was power. And so instead of like challenging systems, the church started to protect them.
Instead of amplifying marginal voices, it started to like police them or to exclude them. And instead of humility, which was like foundational, it built this hierarchy where everything is sanitized. Like something as simple as turn the other cheek. I just made a video about this for Good Friday. So like, like when we think of Turn the other cheek, most of us are either taught or have heard that this means like, give more of yourself if you are abuse.
Like give it one more try. If you are in an abusive relationship, just like, just turn the other cheek, look away or continue to receive. But turn the other cheek. If anybody who's gone to seminary, we'll know that like it's. It's a subversive call to accountability from the person who's hitting you. So typically when you're slapped the person who's [00:25:00] slapping you, if they think they are better than you, will slap you with like the back of their hand, like a, and so by turning the other cheek, you are forcing them to slap you if they want, with the, with their palm, inviting them to confront you as an equal.
Like that's what a turning the other cheek means. It's a moment of confrontation, not of, uh, giving yourself. And the same thing goes to all the other verses in the Bible, if you're familiar, that says like, if somebody asks you for one to nick, give them two. It's to, to say like, why are you asking me for this too, Nick?
Like, what? Is there something that's greedy of you? And by me giving you more than you ask for, it confronts your own desire for, for things.
I think that that's, that's the truth. And it's so frustrating that people co-opt that for whatever agenda. And we see that so clearly in today's world, especially in like this administration or the US [00:26:00] administration and like with DHS, how DHS is like being portrayed as the army of God, which is such a departure from like anything in the Bible. And yet it's, its its desire to be close to power and privilege that the church is like allowed to have its message co-opted.
Kyley: yeah. Okay, so here's my question for you. What would, what do you say to people around resentment? And specifically resentment? Well, I'll, I'll actually just share it transparently. Um, I've been watching a lot recently how I have this really deep resentment and I feel it towards like Jesus towards Christ.
And I know unconditional love as a model enough to know that he's like, yes, bring me your resentment. Right? But I, I think a lot of us who, I think a lot of people who have, um. Conflicting relationships with [00:27:00] Christianity. There's this resentment piece, and I've been watching it like this thorn, like I went to, uh, I've been drawn back to mass recently, and I, and I've always been very close with the blessed mother.
Like she and I are tight, and I sat in the corner, I went to sit like next to her part of the altar, and I was like, okay, I'm here for you. And I sit down and the way the seats are angled, as soon as I sit down, I'm looking straight at the crucifix. And I was
Gerlyn: Oh
Kyley: you motherfucker. I was like, right. I was like, I see what you're doing.
I could like feel the kind of like me of spirit that was like, ha ha ha. And then I felt Mary say, um, you know, my son has something for you. And I just was mad, you know, and it's okay. Like I'm, I'm in, like that's my practice is to then like be in that. And I was so, I was delighted by the experience and like found the humor in how just like pissed I was, you know?
But I think, um. I think that's really there for a [00:28:00] lot of folks. Right. And, and I'm curious what you might say, um, to someone who sees that, and I don't know how you'd recommend as a reverend to work with that.
Gerlyn: I love that. I think like I find myself often, often saying like, damnit Jesus, when I like want to do something that's bad and I'm like so close to it and then like it's like a slight redirection, I think. Thank you for sharing that. That's like so vulnerable and I think it's something that so many people resonate with.
'cause resentment is so real. I think to start, I wanna like say that the goal isn't to eliminate resentment. It's to hold it without fear. It's to hold it in a way that allows it to be there while we. Worship while we ask for accountability. I think like often within Evangel church spaces [00:29:00] most, a lot more so in like evangelical spaces, it seems like transformation is always linear.
That you go from like broken to fixed from, from unsaved to saved. And in this case it would be like resentments to not resentment. And I don't think that's the goal at all. And I think for the church, we shouldn't rush into fixing it as, or looking at it as a problem to fix. I think first of all, we should learn how to honor it. We, I heard someone say, I think a Mennonite priest once say, now when someone comes to you with like a a problem, especially a problem that they're experiencing within the church, that's not like abuse, but like, like within the church to ask like what is the holy longing behind the problem? And so what is the longing behind resentment? And I think often. It's belonging and it's accountability. And so if the church can like, take a step back and not be so defensive [00:30:00] about, oh, why do you resent me? You know, it's, it's not Jesus. It's, it's the people representing Jesus. I think all those lines are like really unnecessary and painful. But to take one step back and say, how can we offer them belonging and how can we do that while we hold, take accountability for the ways that we have sinned as a, as a church. And I think doing that in conversation with the person who is feeling resentful, that's what a gift that is to the church.
Kyley: Do you ever feel the pressure or kind of weight around, uh, so many people being such a visible figure around this? Like, Hey, the institution could do better, and so many people kind of like showing up at your, uh, virtual, uh, doorstep with their particular, um, baggage.
Yeah. Does that ever feel like a pressure? Does that question make sense?
Gerlyn: I think the only time it has felt, uh, like pressure was when it was the quantity of [00:31:00] it.
Whenever I have like a video that goes mega viral, I get a, a lot of requests and I'm not able to keep up with them. But most of the time it doesn't feel like I'm carrying a big like burden and doesn't even feel like I'm a, a bridge most of the time. I feel like I'm at the very end of a bridge that people have already walked
on, walked towards, like I am. There was a book, I think it was like a hundred, a hundred essays that changed the way you think, and one of the essays talked about how worldviews change and worldviews change when people continue to hear information that doesn't fit within the way that they're, they currently see the world and at one point, like they hear something that just tips that scale. And that's when like deconstruction, transformation, worldview shift. And I think I am trying to be that one piece of information that like overflows your capacity to believe what you believe and so it doesn't feel like that much [00:32:00] pressure. So I'm like just throwing darts that are faithful darts and hopefully one of them lands And you've already done the work.
I trust most people have like done a lot of the work in being able to receive this message.
And so hopefully this one is what will crack crack your like facade of the world open.
Kyley: Yeah.
Oh, I love that imagery so much.
Eva: Yeah. That's beautiful. Okay, but what about conversely? Do you ev do you get a lot of slack? I mean, yeah. Let's, let's talk about what it means to be a more present figure online and, you know, having things go viral and, you know, the gifts and the trickiness of it. And I'm curious, do you ever get any, what's the word I'm, I mean, for lack of a better word, shit, for what you post when people are like, you're, you're, you know, you're going against, you know?
Yeah. I, I'm, Ima I can, I, I guess in my mind I'm imagining people sending you all sorts of crazy things. Is that true?
Gerlyn: Yeah. [00:33:00] So
Eva: That somehow you're going against the word of God, you know,
Gerlyn: Oh yeah, yeah, for sure.
Couple of years
Eva: hold that, you know, the, the controversy and the stigma and all of that.
Gerlyn: Great question. Couple of years ago when I was still making very Anglican content, I got on the wrong side of, I think. Young teenage Catholic talk boys. And so they were like all these boys. And I could tell they were young boys that would like inundate me with hate. So like a video would have like 500,000 views and only like a hundred likes because they were just forwarding this video to one another.
And then there would be like a thousand comments telling me, I'm awful, that I am going to burn in hell for being a female priest. And that lasted for months. And I remember that that was the first time, like the wave of the feedback kind of got to me and I was like, stop making content for a little bit. And then it, [00:34:00] one day it dawned on me that this is my space. I can like take you out of this space. And so I started blocking people. Like I think I've only blocked maybe 20 or 30 folks. And the algorithm fixed itself. I think one of the gifts of being online is that there is a strategy to being online.
There is an algorithm and so sometimes we just have to like manipulate it a little to get people off off. that's the low end of, hey, it's been a little hard. So that's very, very easy. Dealt with it. For those who are dealing with it, I would strongly suggest just filter out your, your people. that I'm a little larger on the platforms and I'm getting more attention and now that I say more controversial things, because of the controversial world we live in, it's, it's riskier. Just two, three weeks ago leading up to Palm Sunday, like I'd posted a video and at this point I've taken the video down and like it's a video that [00:35:00] like the diocese and I have decided maybe shouldn't have made it online 'cause it just doesn't represent the office, like as it as the diocese would like want it to. Anyway, I partnered with a company for sex toys. And I did this once before and I kind of framed that partnership as I really struggled with sex as somebody who waited till marriage and like toys really helped my journey to like reclaim my own understanding of body. And it wasn't received well then, but it was okay this time. I said, Hey, like I'm partnering with them again and whatever money I make from it, I will give to Planned Parenthood and I'll give some of it to people who need gas money. And it just went virally awful on X, which I'm not on. People downloaded the video they made me like morphed into the devil and the, the headline was priest selling sex toys to kill babies.[00:36:00]
Kyley: Oh God.
Eva: Oh my gosh.
Gerlyn: awful. It was awful.
And not only like was it attractive, right? The headline is so catchy, but they also doxed me for it.
They created an article, put my address out and said, this is where she lives. This is how you can find her. This is who you should reach out to, complain about her. And so like that week leading up to Palm Sunday, my church was getting like hate messages, which I felt was like really unfair because my staff didn't consent to being a part of my online ministry. And it's scary for them in a way that is not as scary for me. So there is a risk. And I think, I think there's a, for me, how I hold it, I hold like the risk of being online, like things like this alongside the risk of not speaking, like at some point, right? Like in, in just within, let's say body autonomy, planned parenthood, like sex toys that help [00:37:00] you discover yourself within that gap of me being doxed and like, and. Not speaking out in that gap. There are, I'm sure, hundreds of women who did buy that toy because of my video and who did discover themselves in like meaningful ways. And I think there's great value in that. But I think the, the role as, as like a priest online is to discern like what conversations like make that value worth it.
Make that risk worth it.
Kyley: Well, and I'm, I mean, first of all, that sounds awful
and I'm really, I can tell in the way you're telling the story that it has a, like, it, maybe it feels a little resolved internally, but that sounds awful. And I'm very sorry
you went through that and
Eva: listeners with me and Kyley, or Meia, I had my, my jaw was like on the floor. I could not believe like what people will do and go through. It's wild, but sorry, continue.
Kyley: Oh, I was just gonna say it feels like that in that I also hear your an echo back to this line that I wrote down. 'cause it struck me so much that you [00:38:00] cannot be a coward in the pulpit. Right? So like, what does it mean to find the truth that is yours to tell? And that there will be, um, there's risk. There's risk and also that it's our like, sacred assignment to show up and speak our truth.
And so, but then also going back to our very first point of like, and the way you're gonna find out what to say and when to say it is by fucking up.
Eva: Making lots of mistakes. Wow. Yes.
But it's just so fascinating because you're doing this work in the modern age and so it's, is it new ter? Yeah, new territory, I would say, you know, for humans to be, so much of our work is done online, and so you are having to figure out in real time what it means to have this audience where you have this message that you want to share that is like true to you and your work, but.
I don't actually know if there's, it's one of those things where there's no clean [00:39:00] answer. It's like, it's, it's a, it's a new world out there and it's trying to figure out how you, how you share this message, the message of God with people.
Gerlyn: Yeah.
Eva: Oh God. In such, in a, within a really messy, messy world. And I think you're a brave soul for doing it actually is really like my conclusion because there is no like roadmap and you are gonna get a lot of shit and, and it's risky.
It is risky. And so it's brave to put ourselves out there like that. Yeah.
Gerlyn: Yeah, absolutely. It, it's risky and brave. But if like somebody out there is like watching or listening and they're thinking, oh, this is like gonna deter me from being online, I think there, there is like a really good way to mitigate that risk. And I learned it by like, I don't know, I, I'm still learning it, but there are priests who do this work, who are like really careful about not disclosing where they are. It's just, that's not my reality because our database is public.
But if [00:40:00] there are, there are ways to be online that mitigate at least your physical
risk. But the
online risk, no, people are gonna just be awful. There was this one politician who, who didn't make it past the primary in Texas, and like in one of my comments, he threatened me and said like, if you keep saying this, like you'll never enter the US again. And I was like, for a moment I was like, I wonder if he's gonna put me on a blacklist. And so I, next time I did get to like the airport, I was like worried like, did he do this?
But no,
he is a failed primary candidate in Texas who's, you know, like,
Eva: Oh wow. But there's something to me that's so inspirational about this, almost like the lawlessness of Jesus. You know what I mean? It's like he pissed a lot of people off. This is what I'm saying, like you tuned God's work, literally.
Kyley: Listeners can see you have an exquisite line drawing, drawing in the back of Jesus flipping tables.
Gerlyn: oh yeah,
Kyley: That's, I'm really
loving
Eva: that's so good.
Gerlyn: it's,
It's
my naked pastor.
Kyley: [00:41:00] what was that?
Gerlyn: my naked pastor, the artist.
Kyley: Oh, oh, amazing. I, I'm gonna have to look that up. I actually recently changed my Facebook banner to the like, famous, uh, painting of Jesus flipping tables. Um, yeah, I just, I think that's, that's the vibe. That's the moment. And actually I had, um, this is all making me think of this really beautiful moment I had the other night. So, um, I was putting my son to bed and he sometimes has a hard time falling asleep. And so I do, I've, I've do this kind of guided meditation for him of like just light traveling through his body and it helps him fall asleep. And so I'm sitting in his room and I've done this guided meditation, which is also like great for me, right?
We're both getting this lovely medicine and he falls asleep. And I'm in this like, kind of quasi meditative state, and, uh, Jesus shows up. I'm pretty, I pretty mystical in my practices, so this is not, you know, um, but anyways, I like, feel this connection with him. And I just turned to him in [00:42:00] and I am just so, like, again, back to the resentment piece, but it's a different iteration of it.
And I'm just like, how, what the hell? Everyone's doing such terrible things in your name. And I just saw this image. He just showed me like, just his grief. Like he just like was crying. I'm, I'm gonna cry 'cause I'm feeling it again. Like he was just crying about like, yeah, I know it's really awful, the things that people are doing in my name.
And it like, and I just saw his grief. And then we just sat together like crying about you do your very best and then people are gonna willfully misinterpret it and it's gonna hurt and it's gonna hurt you. But it's, what's worse is like other people will be hurt by the way in which you're good, you're. Good words are willfully misinterpreted. And it was really healing just to be in the, like, grief of it. Um, and somehow I was thinking about that as you were speaking. Like you're gonna, you know, you're gonna stand in your pulpit, whether it's wherever any of our [00:43:00] pulpits are, if we have one and we're gonna speak our good words of truth, and then someone's gonna come along and misinterpret them and be an asshole. We just have to keep doing it anyway, but also, and also cry. Yeah.
Gerlyn: yeah. Crying with Jesus, I think is, is so subversive to even think about Jesus, like God of the world crying, you know, it's,
it's incredible. One of the prayers I pray right before I preach is may only the truth be spoken and may only the truth be heard,
Kyley: Mm.
Gerlyn: like
Eva: Wow.
Gerlyn: that, that that tension of God do your, do your thing.
But if I'm gonna mess up, like be there, then the people who are hearing it, if they're gonna take this wrong way, be there.
Kyley: Mm. Oh, I love that. I really love that.
Eva: I mean, did you already know when you signed up for this work to be a reverend, that it would take, that it would take [00:44:00] what? I don't know if you experienced it this way, but what I'm seeing is I'm, I'm feeling this, I'm feeling inspired because I think it takes a lot of courage to do the work that you do, and it, it is revolutionary in some ways, and I think you're like, again, representing something.
I don't know if you had this intention when you came to this work, but you are a woman. You are a person of color, you are young, you are merging two different worlds. Do you see yourself as a person who's doing revolutionary courageous work, and did you know that this is what you were signing up for?
Gerlyn: Absolutely not. Absolutely not. Like even today, I struggle to see that, like see this work as revolutionary because I think I'm still learning to live into it. I live into it with so much cowardice, like I am, I'm almost, I'm always nervous about like how this is gonna land and like the repercussions of it. And so when something does, I do say [00:45:00] something. I think most of the time it comes from so much fear and I, I hope that that fear will like subside
and that, but I think I'm also grateful for it because it, it shows me like a reverence for this work. It reminds me every single day, both like in-person, pulpit and like online, it shows me that this work matters to me
and that I, I can choose to wield this with comfort or wield this with, in a prophetic way. Like I can, I can say the same words and it be received like, and not disturb anybody. And like I had that, that potential, you know, to show up week after week and be like, God loves you, like you're great.
Eva: Mm-hmm.
Gerlyn: Or to say like, stop being a bloodsucking, greedy, rich person
Kyley: Yeah.
Eva: Yeah. I mean, it's like, it's like who, who was it that said this to you? Was it your, was it your, um, your, your mentor at the time, but you Yeah, your supervisor. You can't be a coward at the pulpit. Like I, that's just [00:46:00] such a beautiful phrasing. Yeah.
Kyley: Also, um, I feel like do, being scared doesn't, I mean, being, I tell my kids all the time, like, being scared isn't the opposite of being brave, right? Like you said, you do this with cowardice, but I feel like when we are scared and we do something, anyway, that's the very definition of being courageous. Like you're in the living edge of it, right?
You're in the living edge of where, um, truth meets fear, which is where all the like. That's where the most vibrant ecosystems are, are in the living edge, right? In the,
our devotional practice of returning to the living edge and being willing to be in that discomfort for the sake of truth and love. Like that's, I mean, if that's not courage, I don't know what it is.
I,
Eva: Yeah.
Gerlyn: Mm, that's, that's really beautiful and really encouraging.
Kyley: yeah.
Eva: Okay. I wanna move onto a different topic really to speak [00:47:00] about your experience in Palestine, because that's also something that I think has just been very, yeah. Uh, something I would love to hear your firsthand experience of. But before we move on, Kyley, do you have any other questions related to your own personal journey maybe, or.
Kyley: No, I was also actually going to use this moment to pivot and, uh, thanks for looking out for the Kyley. Wants to talk about Jesus with the reverend hour of
the podcast. Um, but uh, no, I also feel like it's, it, it's, it's, I would love to hear more about your experience, your recent journey to Palestine and your experience there.
Eva: Mm-hmm.
Gerlyn: Okay.
Eva: yeah, I mean, there's really no question. It's like we, we give you the mic and, um, share what you would like to share.
Gerlyn: Okay, so last year in December 10, clergy from the Diocese of Toronto, which is my diocese, we went to Palestine on a solidarity trip. It was, and it was through this like organization called Bil Ecumenical Liberation [00:48:00] Center. And they put out like excellent resources on how to be Christian and think about Palestine and Israel and like liberation in the world. And so we, we went and we stayed in like West Jerusalem, which is the Israeli side for the, for most of our trip. And then we spent the days kind of going into Palestinian territory. I boycotted Israel like 10, 12 years ago. And so like, I haven't looked at, really looked at pictures or read stories. Like I know very little about Israeli culture and food because I haven't exposed myself to it in so long. And so I kind of went somewhat blind to what I would expect to see. I knew of like the Palestinian side, but I did not know the Israel quote unquote side. So we get there and like we land in Tel Aviv and it's like very militarized. So everybody has like guns and there's all these young people who are like guarding [00:49:00] the entryways. And so that's like a little bit odd, but it's an airport. It's in, um, a contentious area. I was like, okay, cool. And when we get outta the airport to go to our hotel, I was like really struck by how beautiful it was. I was thinking, man, like. Israel is really pretty and like there are lots of Israelis, there's lots of like Orthodox Jews and there are like, like, Palestinians in, in the Israeli side of Jerusalem, which is like west Jerusalem as the first couple days.
It was really hard for me 'cause I was like, have I misunderstood everything? Like, is Israel just like pretty awesome and like the world is just misunderstanding everything. And I, and I knew like one of two things were happening. Either I was falling for the propaganda or like the world really is completely misunderstood everything. And it wasn't till like the third day when we crossed the eight meter high wall to go to the [00:50:00] Palestinian side that I realized, okay, I fell for propaganda. 'cause within Israel, like the, the walls almost disappear 'cause the walls go up to the sky. You can't even see a building from the Palestinian side when you're within Israel. And. That kind of, that kind of internal ecosystem is so disorienting. 'cause you cannot see what's beyond you and the Palestinians who do make their way into Israel to work or or into Jerusalem. Jerusalem to work to mostly the work. They, they don't really interact with Israelis. And so you don't see that co-mingling until you're like really watching. There's just these pockets of people who exist in individual pockets. But crossing that checkpoint from West Jerusalem into East Jerusalem and seeing like the life on the Palestinian side was so eyeopening right across this wall, which is like a meter [00:51:00] wide, eight meters high. Life is so different. The roads aren't paved as well, and Israel still has the authority to issue permits.
And they haven't issued a permit to build since 2000 and I think two in Jerusalem and East Jerusalem. And so people are still building houses because they need to live and they're still fixing their buildings, but without permits. And so there's this constant risk of could this building that I live in fall anytime Israel controls the water system.
And so while the Israeli side of Jerusalem and Israeli side of Israel gets free access to water, Palestinians have to collect water in water tanks. And sometimes in places like Hebron, they only get water in the summer once in 50 days. Whereas the, the house right next door to a Palestinian house, which is an Israeli house, gets water 24 7. Like the disparity is wild.
And so when you're there, you think, how can this be? But when you're within Israel. [00:52:00] Because I think those who live there full-time don't go to the Palestinian side. They don't realize partially just how awful it is. And that apartheid system, it worked so well in South Africa because of that same like the worlds were so separate. Yeah, it was.
It was.
Eva: I just have, so I'm just have many questions. One, because I have no idea like how it works over there. How hard is it to go from the Israeli side to the Palestinian side? Like can Israelis easily choose to go over there if they want to?
Gerlyn: Ah. So, but to go between Israel and Palestine,
there's always a checkpoint and it's a militarized checkpoint. And as you approach the checkpoint, there are these like massive signs that say either Israelis are prohibited,
or Israelis are strongly discouraged to go. Your life is in danger. And like, I remember us standing at one of those signs, at one of those checkpoints and uh, a Palestinian was driving from, uh, west Jerusalem back to East Jerusalem. And he looked at [00:53:00] us and he said, that's not true. Like, we're very lovely people,
Eva: Mm
Gerlyn: But he knows because he, he knows world between both sides. But Israelis, I think they see that sign and they believe it. And let's say they still decide, I'm gonna go and try to get through at the checkpoint. Most of the checkpoint soldiers will deny them or will strongly discourage them from
Eva: mm Interesting. Wow. What is this? Okay. What is this world that we live in? Okay, so how long were you there for? And I think, what is it? Because on your Instagram you had shared like, you know, you, your hope is that I can't, um, you can refresh my memory, but, you know, wanting to share your experience and having as many people about here as possible.
And I think what is it that you're hoping to share and, and achieve by sharing your experience there?
Gerlyn: So we were there for 10 days and I remember leaving thinking like, what, what's the point of this? Like what am I going to do? How do I make this 10 days actually [00:54:00] meaningful for those at home? Because I think the big call is for the international community to inter intervene because Palestinians have tried to self determine the self, determine how to, how to act and like overthrow Israel for almost 70 years now. And it hasn't worked in their favor because of how much international support Israel receives from abroad. So I think part of the hope was, and the ask was from Palestinians to go and tell our stories. Tell them what you see in your countries, and two, ask them to visit. So it's a two part invitation.
So when I came back I thought, okay, how am I gonna do this?
So I decided to make 15 videos in hopes that it would reach a million people and.
Kyley: Hmm
Gerlyn: And I think I initially thought I would make them back to back, but it's been three months and I've made I think 14 videos
and we're looking at almost 3.5 million views.
It's been so well received.
'cause people want to make meaning of this and not [00:55:00] just kind of see the news stories, but
how it impacted me
Eva: Yes. And the per and the personal, um, element of it too, I think is, is helpful for me to hear as well, because I think I get a lot of like Yeah. The news images and it feels
Gerlyn: Right.
Eva: somewhat disconnected, to be honest.
Gerlyn: Absolutely. Like even like, like the ceasefire in Gaza, we were standing like 30 minutes from Gaza. We weren't able to enter Gaza. We were in the West Bank and like we could hear like almost what felt like thunder in the middle of the day every 30 or so minutes. And it wasn't till a few hours in that we realized when we looked up that we could see these tiny, tiny war planes. Flying overhead to go to Gaza, which is like one awful, because by that, by December we were in a quote unquote ceasefire. And two, every single time that tiny plane went through the sound on the ground was like thunder. And so I can't [00:56:00] imagine what it would feel like 30 minutes where like planes are constantly dropping, bombs are flying overhead.
Eva: Mm-hmm.
Gerlyn: And I'm
sorry.
And I was aware of my own privilege, like I think I'll just share this one, one more story. So we were at the western wall, which um, is like the great standing. There's like one wall that remains after the Romans broke the synagogue in 70 80. And today a lot of people go and they like pray prayers and they roll up their prayer on a piece of paper and they like stick it into the wall and they spend time like wailing at the wall. Because I boycotted Israel like such a long time ago, I never. Been interested in the wall, haven't really been drawn to it, never thought I would go to it. But as part of our, our exposure, our tour, our Palestinian guide took us to the wall and at the entry, so like a quick context, if you're, if you're a Palestinian, in Jerusalem, you have to have a permit to say [00:57:00] like, I live and I move, my center of my life is in Jerusalem. So there's no one from the West Bank who can come into Jerusalem as a Palestinian without like an explicit permit. And it's really hard to get those permits. And so our Palestinian guide, who is from Jerusalem, was denied entry to the wall. And the reason being that he wouldn't speak Hebrew to the, to the guards. And like he kept speaking in English, they kept responding in Hebrew and it escalates. And the guy finally comes to us, like the 10 people from Canada, and he says to us in English, like, you can go in, but he can't go. And finally, like Omar, who was our guide, said, you know, guys, like if this is what they do in front of you, can you imagine what they do behind the scenes? But just, just go, like, I'll just wait outside. And I remember our bishop at the time said, I don't need to go. Like, I'll just, I'll just stay outside. And I, in that moment, like felt again, conflicted. [00:58:00] I was like, oh, but I'm so close to the wall, I can just like go and see it. And I ultimately decided like, I shouldn't, like, I'm not gonna go. But I was so aware of my, my desire to give up solidarity for my own privilege on a trip that was meant for solidarity with Palestine and now presented with like a wall that I'd never wanted to see. I was thinking, ah, maybe I'll just leave my Palestinian brother behind to experience his oppression
Eva: Mm-hmm.
Gerlyn: 10 feet from here. I think it's important people to hear that 'cause the closer we get to power and privilege, the harder or the more aware we need to be to actively distance ourself from power and privilege.
Kyley: [00:59:00] I have a question for you that's not exclusively about Palestine, although certainly related to it. Um, it strikes me between this story and the story about the weed store, like you are someone with a very strong moral compass and you regularly practice a sermon about like ma following that moral compass.
And I'm curious if you could share with us like how you [01:00:00] know, what your moral compass is and how you know, what decisions to make. Because I think, and there's so many moments, like both of those stories are moments where like there's a perfectly good reason that you could say about why like one should go see the wall or one should mind their own business at the wheat store.
And, and I think one of the things that's so fraught in this moment is that in addition to just the noise and the churn of all the awfulness, which is by design, there's this, um. Like confusion that can lead to a freeze or an inaction around like what is the right choice to make now and now and now. Um, so I'd love your insight on how you walk yourself through that.
Gerlyn: It's such a good question. Such a good question. And I wish somebody had like asked, we had this conversation when I was younger, you know? 'cause when I was younger, if you talked about earlier, I was surrounded by shame every single time I made a mistake. It's like all teenagers make mistakes, but that shame just. Crippled [01:01:00] me. And so I was, when I was working at, as a chaplain in a children's hospital, we were taught this method. It's like it's action, reflection. Oh, reaction, reflection, and action. So you, like, you react to a situation, whatever that it is. And then you actively spend time thinking about why you reacted that way. And then you consciously make a choice to act differently. And I think when you pay attention to what you're doing, you build that like bodily empowerment
to act differently. That's one.
So I, I learned that like intentional practice. So now every time I do something that's questionable, I do spend time like thinking about why did I do that?
Was this because of my childhood? Was it because of culture
or my own selfishness? And without judgment, you know? 'cause
like
a girl's a little selfish.
Eva: the key. Is the key piece. 'cause then you can't really see clearly. Yeah.
Gerlyn: Absolutely. To like own like, yeah, I'm a [01:02:00] little selfish in that moment and like how much of that do I wanna give up? So that's a technique I use and, but I think the root of my moral compass is the Bible. I
grew up reading the Bible every single day before I could understand it. And so like there are some verses that com have that guide everything I do. Like one of my favorite verses is from Deuteronomy and that talks about how like if you own a vineyard, go ahead and harvest your vineyard, but don't go over it a second time. Leave what's on on the vines for those who are poor, for those who are widowed and for maybe even like foxes who are hungry. And reading that scripture as like a six, 7-year-old didn't make sense to me. But then as a teenager, that sense of equity really formed me. And as an adult, it's given me my moral compass. And there are hundreds of verses that say we should welcome the foreigner. Care for the orphan, welcome [01:03:00] the children. And I think all of those verses put together have built my, built my compass. It's always for liberation, always for justice, and always for mercy.
Eva: That's really beautiful. As someone who has zero connection to the Bible. I don't, I've never, I don't even know if I've picked up a Bible before. Really? Maybe. And, um, I've never read
Kyley: I love how different, I love that we're both
Eva: so different.
Kyley: wi weirdos and you're, our paths are so different.
Eva: It's so different. But I'm curious to you to know, Kyley, does that resonate with you? Like, what is your relationship with the Bible and, and the idea of using that as a moral compass? 'cause I, I can see the beauty in that, you know, this sacred text. Yeah. This, that I think, you know, that, um, at its core, yeah, it really can be a moral compass.
But anyway, it gets co-opted in, in all sorts of ways. But what is your relationship with the Bible Kyley?
Kyley: Um, I, it is, we're [01:04:00] back to anger.
Gerlyn: Yeah.
Kyley: We're, uh, uh, which is again, like there's something to the point of living edge. Like there's something really meaningful. Like I'm, we're clearly, I'm clearly on a, like, you know, reunion tour of, with my, you know, uh, Catholic roots and the Bible and Jesus. Um, and. But yeah, it definitely feels fraught for me still. Um, but also, like I was 17 reading, um, you know, multiple books about how the Bible was formed and the politics of which chapters were, you know, so it's one of those things, that's why I mentioned earlier, like, it's a very joist in relationship for me because it's like the, there's something in it that is like very fertile for me and very generous and very loving, and the frustration and the grief feels meaningful, right?
Rather than a like, casted out cynicism, it feels like. [01:05:00] Um, uh, so anyways, um, I think, um, yeah, even like for me, I had a lot of resentment. I think I've shared this on the podcast before about, you know, Catholicism is very scripted, right? In the, in the mass is very, like, there's a part that you say, and your job is to kind of like. Sit, stand, kneel and follow the script. And I had, um, there was a long period where I did not like anyone else's prayers except for ones I wrote myself, because I was like, no one's gonna tell me what to say. Right. Um, and I have only recently like really fallen in love with like a prayer, like prayer that has like deep roots and has been said by hundreds and thousands of people before.
Um, but I think it's because I've just have mo I'm moving through that, that, um, that, so anyways, but I think my, in terms of moral compass, I've shared this story before in the podcast perhaps, but my mom was [01:06:00] really, really, really did this really, really cool thing. When we would drive home from mass, she would always say, what did you think about the sermon? Because her experience as the youngest of 10 kids was like, you just sit there, you don't SA fusA, then you go home. And so she would always say, what do you think? What did you think about the sermon? And that is probably one of the most formative parts of my spirituality because like it made, it gave me an oppor, it gave me a sense of ownership over it.
And it gave me a sense of like that, like, this is yours to have an opinion about until like it's shaping you, but you, you belong to it and it belongs to you. Um, and I think that feels like a part of my moral compass in a pretty strong way.
Eva: Yeah,
Kyley: Yeah.
Eva: but I, I do love Lyn Gerlyn. Your, the relationship that you have with the sacred text. I think there is something really beautiful to allow yourself to be guided by something that is sacred is, you know, how I, how I think of it. Um. I wanna go back to Palestine though, because, [01:07:00] oh, did
Gerlyn: Can I, you?
share something quickly about my Bible?
So one second.
Eva: please.
Gerlyn: So I have all these Bibles that I just used for a video yesterday, but my favorite one is this one and it's
like my childhood
Eva: an intro to the Bible that you would recommend for someone who's never read the Bible? Like the Bible for Dummies?
Gerlyn: you know, this is like, this is the called True If you're like a young girl, this is called True Images and it's like really, really good
back in
the day. Yes. But
if this is for like teenagers, I'll, I'll send you another one that's maybe more adult friendly.
But this, for example, when I was, when I was a kid, excellent bible. The same Bible today is actively aff affirming. So back in the day this Bible had. It has like quizzes about like dating and like what, what kind of girl you wanna be? It's very cute. But back in the day it didn't say like homosexuality was bad. But the same bible that's produced today has like little like cutesy pink [01:08:00] notes that say, you know, homosexuality is a sin but you can choose to abstain. And, and so I think the Bible is like wonderful, but the ways that we've tried to make it accessible to different age groups can be deeply poisonous. And
we need to do that work of wrestling like, like you and your prayers,
Kyley, we need to wrestle with what we say and believe.
Kyley: Yeah.
Mm. Yeah. I would love your recommendation of a, of a, as I'm, I'm saying dipping my toe in, but as I'm sharing all these stories, I'm like, oh, we're, we are in the water. We're full. There's no toe dipping that's happening. Actually, we've fully gone swimming, but I would love your recommendation of a Bible that's affirming and uh, won't make me want to throw it across the room, or maybe will, that's probably helpful too.
Gerlyn: Oh, I wish I had it ready. Like Reverend Lizzie online, she has like a list of bibles that are really good. I will find it and maybe like send it to you guys too.
Kyley: Oh, we would love
Gerlyn: this part of the
Eva: Yes. And then we could also add it to add it to the show notes. 'cause I think it could [01:09:00] be interesting for some people. Um, going back to Palestine though, I'm very curious about this invitation to visit Palestine because immediately I just have this like image of like warden torn area being completely unsafe.
And I don't know if that's, you know, just how accurate that is. But, um, is it safe to visit Palestine? I find that so fascinating that that is the invitation and understandably so, but also what is that like really in real life?
Gerlyn: great question. So none of us are able to go to Gaza.
That is a closed border, open air prison and that remains the same. So I think when we, lots of people, when we think of Palestine, we think like Gaza
and where I think the invitation to visit is the West Bank. That includes like Bethlehem. And so there are tours all the time that are, for example, Israeli tours that take you to Bethlehem, that take you to like the Jordan that take you or the banks of Jordan. But they don't tell you the [01:10:00] stories about, about the land. And so like visiting is, is okay. It is safe, it is possible go with like, 'cause people do it all the time with Israel and it is the same land but it's just not labeled Palestine. But if you are like able to go, if you're a Christian for example, specifically if you're a Christian, bil organizes these solidarity witness trips and that's an excellent way to, to go. You go with this group, you hear the stories of from Palestinians led by Palestine within the the West Bank. If, if you are going as a non-Christian bil, I think will still be good. But there are organizations and tour guides that are run by Palestinians. There are institutions like the Bethlehem Institute for Justice, like you're able to visit and it is safe. And there are certain places, especially where there are settlers, where it is unsafe, but those [01:11:00] unsafe areas are usually unsafe for Palestinians,
not for the international community. I think Israel and settlers know that hurting internationals is bad for pr,
bad for image, and so they even ask international people to go just to bear witness because when international people are in a neighborhood that has propensity to violence, there's less violence.
Kyley: Mm.
Gerlyn: So like one of our
colleagues who went on the trip is actually gonna go back for a few months to be like an international witness bearer.
Kyley: Wow.
Gerlyn: There's so much beauty. There's so much beauty. So do visit,
Kyley: what, what that, I think my question for you is what do you most wish that people could know based on your trip and your witnessing and your experience?
Gerlyn: I wish people know just how much support Israel gets from the world
that makes it possible to do what they do. Like [01:12:00] just in Hebron, which is one of the most militarized places in the West Bank, like they received nearly a billion dollars last year from just the US in aid and support, and that aid and support goes towards militarizing and occupying the land. We went to a museum where like the weapons had like the label, like tested and proven, and then our guy's asking us like. How can you say a weapon is tested and proven by testing it on Palestinians? These were the weapons that were used
in Gaza and now they're being sold as, Hey, this works really well and so like we need to help people see that.
Eva: Mm.
Would you say that you are, um, that your work is aligned with social justice? That's kind of a loaded question. What I mean by that is like, what, what you're promoting, it seems like the long game. It's the long game. Like this is my understanding of what the Palestinians are saying will be helpful because what they've been doing isn't [01:13:00] working.
And what they need is more support from the outside world to balance out the support that Israel is getting. But this is a long game. Right. And to me, when I hear and feel that, when I hear and I, it's like I can get a little bit, um, discouraged it feels like it's. I don't know if it'll happen in my lifetime and, and that's okay.
Like a human lifetime really is quite short and, and you know, we're a pin prick in time, but I guess why I asked the social justice piece like is because in order to continue on doing this work, it does feel like a call for social justice over time. And I'm curious, I don't know, does that resonate with you?
Gerlyn: Yes. Yes, absolutely. I think like any work needs to be strategic and like thought through and has have buy-in. I think the BDS movement does that. It, it doesn't just throw, throw everything down. People that is like [01:14:00] a system of boycott and sanction and divest. And I think that's discouraging to a lot of people because like people want to see it happen now.
They wanna see the effects and I think like we'll see the effects in our lifetime. I think like the Israeli wall, the apartheid wall like will fall in our lifetime.
And that is happening. We can see like the perception of Israel changing
and we just need to mobilize our governments to divest. 'cause everything comes down to, I think To money.
and
Eva: Yeah. Well,
Gerlyn: need to boycott.
And divest.
Eva: We mobilize our governments. That comes from the people, right? And that comes from what the pressure that we, where, when we're, where we put our money, which then connects to, I think, what you're doing, which is just like sharing, going, sharing your experience, educating people, and informing people like what's really happening so that, um, the people can make more informed choices.
Kyley: There is so much more that, uh, I [01:15:00] feel like we could ask, if we could talk about, but I also wanna be mindful of our time, and so perhaps this is where we do a round of joy.
Eva: Yeah.
Kyley: Um, Reverend ly, do you wanna share, um, something that's bringing you joy right now?
Gerlyn: I have a new nephew and he is just, he is one of those babies that doesn't cry, who just wants to be held. And so just to be able to hold him, and that serotonin expelled from me. Is it serotonin? I don't know, but some hormone that
Eva: Oxy. Oxytocin, maybe. Oxytocin is, I think is the, is the hormone of love is, I don't know. Yeah,
Gerlyn: Oxytocin. Yeah.
That's been really good.
Eva: Oh, sweet.
Kyley: um, new baby cuddles. How about
you, Eva? My
Eva: Oh gosh. Um, there's a lot of things bringing me joy.
Now, and the first thing that came to mind is I think my relationship with nature here in Brazil. I've noticed that every single day I have one really fun encounter with [01:16:00] animal nature, spirit of nature, whether it's like I don't, uh, you know, frogs in my bathroom or, um, wasp building, like bringing mud into my office or, you know, butterflies landing on my fingers.
And, and f we saw like a fox the other day that almost ate my neighbor's cat. Like there's just, there's always just these little things happening and it's so alive here and, and there's lots of bugs, but the bugs seem genuinely. Really friendly. I know that sounds odd, but you know, people ask me like, how do you deal, like living with all the nature here, you know?
And, and to me it's, it's a learning, it's a delight. It's a joy. It's such a thing. Fun, fun thing to relish. It makes life so exciting to be able to interact with different creatures this way. And I feel like I'm so blessed to be able to continue to, um, deepen my relationship with animal plant life. So that's, that's fun.
Kyley: Hmm.
Eva: And Kyley, what about you? What's one [01:17:00] thing that's bringing you joy?
Kyley: Um, my. Daughter keeps climbing into my bed at night. And, uh, there's ways in which sometimes that's like, oh my gosh, there's not enough room. There's this, there's that. And we have like a little, like their old crib mattress. It's like tucks under our bed and we pull it out at night, you know, so that they can be in our room if they need to, but not in our bed.
But before she, she always just like lately, every night at like three in the morning she comes and she climbs in. And last night I was holding her. I like snuggle her before I'm like, okay, now go to sleep on the mat, on the floor for a minute. But I just was like feeling how much, how sweet it is to just wrap myself around her. And I was thinking of, I was thinking about mothers in Iran and in Gaza and in all over the world who are also like wrapping themselves around their babies. And I was just feeling like, what a. Delicious thing. It is to like be loved [01:18:00] and love your kid. So
Eva: Hmm.
Kyley: yeah.
Eva: And to get that in while she's still, while
Kyley: Yep.
And because Right. She will stop coming into my bed.
And
so that's, there was the, there was the like grief, joy of knowing that this will end. And so how delicious did I have it right now?
Eva: Yeah.
Gerlyn: Yeah.
Kyley: Hmm.
Gerlyn: Lovely.
Eva: All right. Reverend Jerry land, this was such an amazing conversation and, and we're just thrilled and delighted to have you on. Thank you so much for your time, and how can people find you and your work and, and, and work with you?
Gerlyn: in person. I'm at a church called Holy Wisdom in Toronto Online. Um, on Instagram, I'm Gerlyn Henry. And then on TikTok, I'm Rev Gerlyn.
Eva: Woo-hoo. Awesome.
Kyley: Thank you so much.
Gerlyn: Thank you for this opportunity. It was so good to speak with you guys and be with you this day.