After a lengthy & luxurious summer break, Kyley & Eva are back with Season 5! Eva’s been on a world tour of magical retreats & Kyley has been at the beach and back-to school with the kids, and blowing up business. Life is teaching us how to really receive and how much we actually do not know. Plus, the regular contenders of joy, love, and letting the f*ck go.
After a lengthy & luxurious summer break, Kyley & Eva are back with Season 5! Eva’s been on a world tour of magical retreats & Kyley has been at the beach and back-to school with the kids, and blowing up business.
Life is teaching us how to really receive and how much we actually do not know. Plus, the regular contenders of joy, love, and letting the f*ck go.
[00:00:00]
Eva: Welcome to season five of hello universe. Oh my God. I can't believe you and I have been doing this together and growing together for five whole years, Kylie.
Kyley: No, it's really great. It's really
Eva: It's so special and everything that I've learned and everything that I've. How I've evolved from being able to do this work with you has been nothing short of life changing. You are just the best partner.
Kyley: Yeah. The show has changed my life in some of the best possible ways and I, I can't wait for where we're going with season five. The chance to [00:01:00] come and have really deep, heartfelt conversations with you and our guests and bring these needy questions and wrestle with them every week has been one of the most nourishing things in my life. And I am really Just psyched that we are up for our next round.
Eva: Oh yes, and thank you so much for everybody who continues to join in, because it feels like a really special community. I think if you've been with us, it's like y'all are here to go deep.
Kyley: And speaking of going deep, Eva and I have something we are so excited actually, I believe it's taken us five years to get to this, but we have our very own group program coming, it's working title, Your Magical Life, and it's going to be a deep investigation of how to really embody and live The life that you're dreaming of.
Kyley: Um, so we can't wait, get on the wait list, right? The second links in the show notes. Um, we [00:02:00] want to make sure you get all of the information as soon as it's available, cause it's gonna, it's gonna knock your socks off my friends.
Eva: Yeah, if you've been, I mean, if you like the show, you're gonna love this program. uh, We've just come back from our summer, our, uh, our yearly summer break. I know both you and I have gone through some pretty significant initiations. Um, there's always so much going on in the background.
Eva: I would love to hear, and this is what we want to talk about today is sort of a recap of our summer to welcome each other back and welcome back all our listeners and to talk about what is life teaching us right now, which is the question that we start every episode with, with our guests. And we felt it was only fair that we also try and answer the, answer the question.
Kyley: I
Kyley: think life is teaching me how to receive all of the things that I've been asking for for a long time. I think life is how to receive the things that are already here and like really let into my body and my felt sense their [00:03:00] goodness. And I also think that life. Is inviting me to really let in all of these dreams and requests that I've been making for a long time.
Kyley: This feels like the moment where life is saying, okay, it's time. Now you get a lot of men.
Eva: Oh, wow. Holy shit. That's actually really big.
Kyley: Yeah. Yeah. It's really terrifying, actually. I mean, it's amazing. And it's, it's just terrifying too.
Eva: It does feel like, okay, the behind the scenes conversations you and I have been having throughout summer is it does feel like you're on the precipice of something is what I sense. And you and I have also both talked about how actually both of us feel like we've been in kind of a quiet, what did you call it?
Eva: Um, just a quiet space. Is that, uh,
Eva: what did you call it? Do you
Kyley: I think there's moments where all of the, like, [00:04:00] that were the richness and the change and the dynamic experiences are, they're like all internal. And then I think there's then there's moments where all of a sudden, it's like time for that to be an extra more of an external experience.
Eva: Yeah. And I just think that's a natural cycle of life. You know, it's like, I think both you and I have been in a cycle of, I would describe it as just more like, um, I know I have been phases in my life where I've just been like very dynamic. And it's like, all of these things are happening. It's like, boom, go, go, go, go, go.
Eva: And I, and again, if you looked at both of our lives, you could see from the outside, you could also say that that's been happening, but no, I think we've actually been tending to our gardens. very, very lovingly these past couple of years. And for you, I think you're on the edge of something. And so this is the edge.
Eva: Now you're helping me understand better, actually the edge that you're on of like, yeah, you have been making requests and you have. You've been ready for something and now life is saying, okay, so then can [00:05:00] you
Kyley: Yeah.
Eva: What if, What
Eva: if there's nothing stopping you from receiving except
Eva: yourself?
Kyley: which we could argue is always the case, but there's moments where that's, I think, especially true. Right. Sometimes we make requests and life is like, great, you've got a ton of baggage that you don't want to take with you. Right. It's not that you, it's not that you're unworthy or can't have, it's just, you're carrying too much baggage and you don't want it.
Kyley: So we're going to use this request as an opportunity to invite you to drop a bunch of those bags that you've been carrying, limiting beliefs and unkind stories and trauma, blah, blah, blah. Yeah. And then I think there's this moment where. Where, you know, life says, okay, here you go, come and get it, which is also because it's paradox.
Kyley: It's like a come and get it. And also, uh, like, stop efforting and let it come to you at the same time.
Kyley: It's bold, which is part of what's, which is part of what makes this a, like, rich learning moment.
Eva: [00:06:00] yes. Are there ways in which you notice yourself, um, Being resistant to receiving.
Kyley: Oh, yeah, 1000%. And I think that's what what life is teaching me when I what it feels like is there's like a spotlight showing up everywhere. Resistance to receiving is living, and it's not necessarily painful, you know, it's, this is why it's not like a deep excavation kind of moment. It's like, Oh, here's a spot.
Kyley: Oh, here's a spot or it's like a physical felt sense around some like resistance. Uh, or it's like some, some patterns of behavior that I'm watching myself do where I'll like get all the ducks in a row to go roll out some big powerful thing that I'm really excited about. And then all of a sudden, I like retract and hold on to it for a few more moments or days or weeks.
Kyley: And, and I'm just, I'm just watching these patterns [00:07:00] that have been there for a long time. But they don't have roots the same way they used to, right? So sometimes we have patterns that are like, Oh my God, why am I doing this? And it's like full of a lot of suffering. It's, it's a little bit different. And this is where it feels like the threshold thing or the precipice thing is because it's the same patterns, but it's like, life is pointing at it now saying like, do you see how you're doing this?
Kyley: And you don't have to do it that way anymore. Do you see how this has been protection, but you don't need that protection anymore. Like there's nothing, what felt wounded behind that has been tended to. So. You kind of have all these, um, it's like when you move, I know you've been in the midst of, when you move and you realize that you've like had a unpacked box in the corner of your house for the past five years that like you never unpacked and then it's just been sitting there and you're like whatever is in here is not even important anymore.
Eva: because you lived without it for five years.
Kyley: Yeah, so there's some, there's some like almost like house cleaning [00:08:00] energy to it and so it's, it's frustrating and it's frictiony and it's also really beautiful and safe and generous. Um, and I'm watching this, this other, this thing that keeps showing up once in a while that's like, Yeah, but none of this is real and like, we could just curl up right here, right here on the precipice.
Kyley: We could just go pop into a little turtle shell and like, no one will know that we're real or exist and like, Why would we, why would we go out into that uncharted unknown where you can get everything you want? That sounds terrible and terrifying. This is known. We know this spot.
Eva: Okay. I just want to talk about this theme of, um, receiving and resistance to receiving.
Kyley: Mm hmm.
Eva: I also, I think we may have shared this on the podcast before, before, in the last season, season four, of just how strongly this theme also came into my life. And I think life is so kind that it showed [00:09:00] me, I didn't, I didn't actually think that I had resistance to receiving because I think a lot of times, that's how unconscious it was for me, I think a lot of times we're like, why would I have trouble receiving?
Eva: Like, if someone wants to give me this, this, this, like, I'd be so stoked. I was in such a abundant place in my, was, still am, in such an abundant place in my life where, you know, It's the course of this past year, my whole life changed completely. Like moving to Brazil, starting this new relationship or having new like business opportunities. Uh, and I, it's like what people say about like winning the lottery. It's like you win the lottery. And if you're like nervous system or your thoughts like aren't well equipped to receive, you will just like. either get so stressed out and, and I don't know, you know, that money won't serve you or somehow you'll end up spending all that money.
Kyley: Well, there's a, just recently, Chapel Rowan, who, you know, we love.
Eva: Love,
Eva: [00:10:00] love,
Kyley: like, kind of, quote unquote, overnight success. Of course, she's been, like, making music and being amazing for a really long time, but she did kind of have like a rocket ship moment in her career.
Kyley: And she, I recently read an article that she has been really open about actually having, like, A ton of mental health issues in light of the amount of success and fame and attention, which is actually a very common thing.
Kyley: And I love that she's actually fucking naming it instead of.
Eva: Yes. Me too. I think that's so, I thought that was brilliant and I just, I just love her music so much. And also, yeah, she skyrocketed to being like the number one pop queen in the world, arguably. And Um, sorry, so yeah, to go with that example of like going from all of that, it's like probably, you know, this is probably what she's wanted her entire life, this type of stardom and it can also be really scary.
Eva: And [00:11:00] I think receiving is something that we practice. I think that's been such a theme for me this past year of like, and a lot of it has been looking like, so like for me, what blocks me from receiving, and I want to come back to you also, it's like what the blocks are, but like. know, as you know, Kylie, as you know, one of my best friends, my story of badness and just feeling like undeserving and having guilt and shame and around privilege or, um, feeling like it disconnected me from other people because it's like, how can life be this beautiful if there's so much suffering going on in the world too?
Eva: And just noticing how so fascinating to see that I would rather there were some part, there was some part of me that rather choose suffering. So that I could a sense of connection,
Eva: like not being cast out of love, you know, from, from the collective other, or like, I would [00:12:00] rather choose that suffering be in what I perceive to be alone in my freedom and my happiness. And when I saw that, I was like, it was just like, so good to see the insanity in that and the sickness in that, which is, I think something a lot of us experience. Mm
Kyley: And then it gets twisted. I think that particular thing of like the way we choose suffering in order to kind of belong, um, It gets twisted because it feels. the way that you were saying things didn't get sneaky, it seems like it's a kind of compassion, right? It's like, there's so much suffering and it's like, who am I to have all this abundance and pleasure?
Kyley: Um, and so it tells, it's like tells a story that it's about caring about other people. But as you saw, it's actually, it's actually this like really big fear of. not [00:13:00] belonging and being kind of exiled for your, for your not suffering. Um,
Eva: But so I'm curious for you though, how do you experience blocks to receiving?
Eva: Like for me again, it's a story of badness or perceived isolation or that I was like abandoning
Eva: like the collective or something for you. And also cause you spent something that was really interesting of like, it sounds like it happens to you in a pattern where maybe you're ready to launch something really fucking good cause you're a woman with a million brilliant ideas and it's like all ready to go.
Eva: But then you like hold back. I mean, so do you consider that self sabotage?
Kyley: Oh my god, I have so many ways to answer this question. Uh, I think people call that self sabotage. And I actually, full transparency, had a great therapy session in which I was like, uh, self sabotage. I hate self sabotage. And what I teach all of the time is that there's no such thing as self sabotage. It's all self preservation.
Eva: Mhm.
Kyley: just have to understand what we're trying to preserve and like what the [00:14:00] pattern is like there's no such thing as self sabotage it's all protection and I went to therapy and I was like that's dumb actually. I mean, like, you know, we had like a joking conversation about it, but I was like, actually, I cancel all of that.
Kyley: I just hate this self sabotage and I am over it and it can just get fucked. Um, and that was valuable because I had a lot of resentment to this pattern, which. I later observed my like kind of pity party frustration at what people call self stop sabotage was actually I think some of the process of, um, like really actually grieving its existence and letting it go, you know,
Eva: the existence of what?
Kyley: of the self sabotage pattern.
Eva: Mhm. Mhm.
Kyley: to like, we have to see things, you know, anyway. Um, so, yes, I would call that I think people call it self sabotage. I think the more accurate term is self [00:15:00] preservation. Right. Um, and so that is definitely, that is a lifelong pattern for me of like, you know, 80 percent of the way there and then retreat, which.
Kyley: We could say is ADD because I get bored with the final 20%. If I'm honest with myself, this particular pattern is less about that and more about
Kyley: my desire to be potential instead of material, right? Because if you're potential, you can't be held accountable. People can't really be mad at you. You could always do a better next time.
Eva: That's a version of also how I, how I experienced that is I can't fail. It's like if you, because I have a tear, I mean, it used to be so bad and it's so much better now, but like a crippling fear of failure because of the shame that would come with [00:16:00] it. Like, and I would never try anything because I was so terrified of failing. And so, but, and this is like the common thing that we do is like, okay, so then if we never try then we never fail. And you're, which is what you're saying is like, I don't have to be a counter or, or maybe for you isn't fail, but like something bad can't happen.
Kyley: Well, and I think I,
Kyley: and I think in particular what the resistance is at the moment is that fear of success that we talked about, right? Which doesn't mean I don't also have fear of failure, but I think what is really in there is this feeling of like, there are no more blocks, baby girl. Like, sure, there are forever things, but like, there's no problem anymore.
Kyley: And. Like you're really good at what you do. You've got a whole body of work. You've changed hundreds of people's lives at this point. Like, there's no problem. So if you put all your chips on the table, if you like, who are all of your like love and purpose and intention into this next creation, like, of [00:17:00] course, it's going to take, of course, of course, it's going to be beautiful and amazing and abundant.
Kyley: And so in there is like obviously there's just two things. There's a some fear of betrayal like some fear of I've walked all this far all this way. And if I take this quote unquote final step in this cycle. Um, and I find out. Like, you know, I thought I was stepping on a stair and I fall, fall, fall down instead that, that there's like a sense of like the trail that I thought life was going to catch me and I've been walking all this way, all this way, trusting life, trusting life, trusting life.
Kyley: I take this step and there is no step and life didn't catch me because life was just like,
Eva: Yeah.
Kyley: the, you know, the joker in the corner, right?
Eva: I mean, I would actually say you're the metaphor and queen, but in this situation, it's not that you're stepping on a stair, you're stepping on a stage. Like you think you're stepping on a stage with the spotlights and everything, and it's not a stage, [00:18:00] it's a black hole
Kyley: Yeah.
Eva: and you fall down to a bottomless pit.
Eva: But you're saying that's, is that you're saying that's Fear.
Kyley: you said it's like the like you think you're stepping onto a stage and you get there and there's like it's a rickety ass stage in the middle of an abandoned field and there's like a tumbleweed that goes by and like a lonely chicken pecking in the ground in front of you, you know,
Eva: wait, before you move on to the second piece, so are you saying, because I think I had the same fear, is it that you're afraid that, you know, you're going to step onto the stage and be proven wrong, as in like, be proven wrong in some way that like, maybe your trust in your faith was all, uh, sham?
Kyley: Yes, I think, I think that, and we've talked about versions of this before on the show. It's like my faith as like a spiritual person who can trust that life is taking care of me and who can trust her intuitive knowing and can trust these mystical experiences is [00:19:00] so powerful and important. Like even this morning, my kids were like, We watched this My Little Pony show and we think you'd really like this one pony.
Kyley: She's a zebra. And I was like, Oh, like why? And, and Desi goes, well, she rhymes all the time. And I was like, well, first of all, that's a rhyme. And also I do. And he's like, No, but also, she's really spiritual.
Eva: I don't know what the spiritual My
Eva: Little Pony zebra
Kyley: I need to watch an episode of I'm getting no more information about how the zebra pony on My Little Pony is spiritual, but even my kids are like, yeah,
Eva: Yeah.
Kyley: if the character is spiritual, that's mom. Ranked me. I didn't even know they knew that word.
Eva: I know! I was gonna say, like, six, wait, Desi's six?
Kyley: He's seven. Say
Eva: Oh, he's seven Seven year
Eva: old, seven year old Desi. He's like, my mom's spiritual.
Kyley: Yeah, even my mom's spiritual, not religious. [00:20:00] don't know what religion is. They call church towers clock towers. Or castles.
Kyley: Anyway, so, so, yeah, so I think it's like, it's such a precious part of my life. That if I, and this is actually clarifying as we're having this conversation per usual that I think there's a fear that if I take this step, which is energetic as much as it is also an action that I will be proven wrong that like my faith was misplaced and that like life isn't taking care of me.
Kyley: And it's not so much that it's not so much that I would be devastated by being on an empty field because whatever, no big deal. Okay. I think it's that I would be devastated to lose this like pillar of my safety and safety in the world, which is my faith that life is taking care of me, [00:21:00] know, it's like, I don't, I think I'm afraid this is clarifying right now that I'm afraid that life will essentially that life will betray me.
Kyley: Right. And that I was kind of being a fool, which is not the first time this particular fear has come up.
Eva: Yeah, it's like an existential thing.
Kyley: Yeah, yeah. So that's one fear. And then the other fear around. So that's the fear of it not working out. And then the other fear, if I'm really honest with myself, is the knowing that if I do it, if I lean all in, like don't hold back, pour all everything into what I do next, I will be successful and it will change things.
Kyley: And change is scary.
Eva: What will it change?
Kyley: Well, like I won't be here anymore. Won't be on the threshold. Right? Like, inevitably, success, joy, romantic partnership, like, love, whatever the thing is that we've been asking for, the thing that we have perceived to be missing, the thing that we've been wanting and praying for and [00:22:00] evolving towards, we have, we have wanted it because it changes things,
Eva: hmm.
Kyley: right?
Kyley: And so if I leave here for there, which, you know, air quotes around all of these terms, uh, it'll change things. you know, I could list the specifics of how it, how it will change. That's part of our fear of success is like, this is known and to let in, this is the thing about receiving, like to let in the things that you want is also to, to is inherently to let change in.
Kyley: Because you don't fully know how they'll change, you don't fully know what will be different or, or how things will reorder themselves. You have some idea of what you think it will be, but it never is what you think it is. And so to receive is inherently to embrace change.
Kyley: And that's, I think that's really scary.
Kyley: And so I think I'm also grappling with the part of me who's like, again, if we just stay [00:23:00] here, everything stays the same. And this is fine. There's a lot of really good things here. So why would you go and. Let things change, which is the other piece I will say on all of this. I'm talking a lot specifically, I think about work because I can feel a lot of like mounting it's giddy up, it's go time kind of energy.
Kyley: But this also applies to like letting myself be loved and receive the love that is already in my life. So it's not just a, it's about like, like a lot of this is that I'm watching is like What if I really deeply let myself receive
Kyley: how deeply my husband loves me, not as an intellectual thing, but as like a full body, soft heart truth
Eva: hmm.
Kyley: cherished by this man and that I am loved and that I'm, and, and, and that means also grappling with the unworthiness piece, right?
Kyley: And so that's also that, [00:24:00] you know, that's, that's an in, that's an internal change that changes my external reality. Cause if I really let in at a deeper level. The truth of how much he loves me, then I show up differently in our relationship.
Kyley: And I experienced him differently. I'm vulnerable in new and different ways.
Kyley: Um, so that's also here in this threshold energy. It's not just like. Go make a much tick tock video.
Eva: Mm hmm. Okay, wait, I have a quote that I'm looking up that I want to share with you because This last piece really speaks to a theme that's been coming up for me this summer as well, which is like, God, how do you even explain it? Okay, I'll start by reading the, I'll start by reading the, um, the quote. So this quote is from Byron Katie. And the quote is, the fear of death is the last smokescreen for the fear of love. And this isn't how I, and then what I remember another part of this quote is like, because in love is where we [00:25:00] die. And the reason I bring up that quote is because what I hear you saying is like, letting the, for instance, in the love that your husband has for you or that your kids have for you, to me is like an ego death. Like, why is it so scary to let in something that we perceive as good? And some people might be listening to this and being like, well, I don't resonate with that. Like, and that's, and that's, yeah. And I think that just points to the fact that sometimes love is really easy to receive, but sometimes if it's not, I think it's because we're getting ready to kill off some part of ourselves.
Eva: And so the first part of that quote was like, the fear of death is the last smokescreen for the fear of love. It's just, the fear of death is actually just covering up our fear of love. What we're really afraid of most is love or what you're, and not, and what you're talking about is just also goodness, like receiving and [00:26:00] all this goodness is because it kills off all of our stories of
Eva: our ego stories when, and Our ego.
Eva: stories are, yes, and our ego stories, what I'm also finding out this summer is oftentimes not, not the arrogant stories, though that could be true as well, but it's usually the, the. self attacking stories.
Eva: Like the self attack stories I've come to see are my biggest fucking ego trip. And so that story of being not deserving or not a good enough, like, partner or whatever, like, we love those stories. They really uphold our identity of who we are
Kyley: And they're so good at creating separation, right? Like my investment in believing that I'm not a good enough partner for my husband is such a convenient way of keeping him at arm's length.
Eva: because it's vulnerable otherwise. So it's like a safe, it is a safety thing, but exactly. It's like all of this separation so that I can be safe, which is in [00:27:00] some ways. Less challenging than actually loving, letting the love in, like the more courageous thing to do, which is to say, wow, I'm gonna, you can, like, I, you can love me worse than all, like, I can do all of these things that I perceive to be as like really awful or gross or inconsiderate. Is it possible? Oh my God, I'm, you're just like bringing up all these things that I experienced this summer that I had like forgotten about. Like, I had this big moment of feeling so much shame around some part of me that I was really judging as not good enough. And I saw this thing, I was like, Oh, I don't actually think I meant to make it go away.
Eva: I think I meant to just let people see me this way, exactly as I am and, and see like, and trust, like, am I still, can people still love me despite these things? And that's, [00:28:00] that was a really, really vulnerable place. To be in and it's incredibly like to allow yourself to let love in that way. It's actually. really humbling. Not in a way where, I think sometimes this can get distorted and there's some people, I, like, there's a toxic way in which we can be like, Oh, I'm going to act out and be an asshole and see if you'll still love me. That's like a very sort of, um, anxious attachment behavior where it's like, let me just see how far away I can push you.
Eva: Oh, no, that's a, or that could be an anxious and also, or I would say a
Kyley: I think that's just a human behavior. I think
Eva: Yes. But
Eva: like, let me, but I do think that comes like, you can, you can see that clearly in like, in our attachment styles of like, let me push you away as far as I can to see how much you actually love me. And that's, I think, a distorted, toxic version, like, of what I'm talking about. That's not really what I'm talking about. I'm talking about like being seen.
Kyley: but, and [00:29:00] I think there's like a blown up toxic version of that. But there's also, I think, really, I mean, I think there's really subtle, sneaky, insidious ways that we are, you know, acting out or, you know, Um, you know, behaving poorly, these are all in air quotes to push people away in like just really subtle ways, um, that, that aren't, that aren't toxic and it wouldn't be read as toxic.
Kyley: But if you, if you sink deep enough down, you can see that some root of this pattern is like, I'm, I'm, I'm gonna, I'm gonna make myself hard to love.
Eva: Yes.
Kyley: And, and because one, it reinforces our story of unworthiness and two, to your point, it's like, and now I've thrown all these obstacles, so if you still love me, like, you know, I got to make it, I'm going to make it hard to love to like, really make sure that you love me. [00:30:00] One of the questions that I've been sitting with.
Kyley: And also I will share like all of this is very subtle when I'm talking about the stuff with my husband like this is really these are like really subtle observations of like just small ways in which, um,
Eva: Okay. Wait, but can I,
Kyley: operating. Yeah,
Eva: I say something about that? Because something that I have been thinking about a lot is that you and I talk about subtle things. All the time, because that is how things are. It's like, there is actually sort of a, I think as we become more and more, as we begin to notice more and more, our awareness is more refined. And so we notice the subtle more, but what I'm actually noticing is. the subtle is no longer subtle to me, it's starting to take up all the space.
Eva: Because I think as my awareness becomes more refined, small things, it's so it's actually, it's a good thing. This is like an amazing thing, because it used to be like, these [00:31:00] things are so I get so triggered really easily or something.
Eva: And that would be really obvious. And I would be hijacked and by some type of suffering for, for days and make a big show of thing, whatever, you know, that there's that. But as That is hap, that, that happens less. It's almost, I don't, the only way that I, I haven't figured out exactly how to describe it, but it's almost like the more clear we become than even like a small, subtle bit of ink in like a glass of water takes up everything or, you
Eva: know, colors everything. I think that's really good because I think that means something's on the, on its way out.
Kyley: I don't know if it's so much that I experienced it takes up everything. I think for me it's like when the water is brackish you can't see anything that clearly. Okay. Until like, you know, a fish pops, its outta the water. Um, just maybe the metaphor equivalent to like the big rupture where you're in a lot of suffering, but the clearer and cleaner the [00:32:00] water becomes, the more of the easier it is to spot the impurities.
Kyley: Right? All. Again, all of these are in air quotes, but the easier it is to see like, oh, that is a spec that doesn't belong here.
Kyley: Um,
Eva: I love that. I think that's a better, you're the metaphor queen. That's even better. Yeah. It's just, but he just bought it more, but it's like, I can't, but I do think this thing about taking, anyway, sorry, go on, go on.
Kyley: well it's interesting.
Eva: Yes.
Kyley: I'm sure it's both of these things. Cause for me, one of the things that I am appreciating in the, and why I specifically said that it's in the subtlety is that it also gives space to how much there's no problem, right? It's like, I observed these subtleties, these like quote unquote impurities in the water of like, where I'm attached to separation or unworthiness they're subtle.
Kyley: They don't to your point, like demand my attention. It's like, Oh, and I am [00:33:00] also sitting here having this beautiful loving dinner with my family or like planning this vacation with my husband and like turning towards him to watch a YouTube video about the trip we're going on and At the same time that my life is like rich and sweet I also just see where there's a little part of me who like, you know contracts around unworthiness in the midst of the richness.
Kyley: And there's something for me about the subtlety of, do you see how there is no real problem here? That is part of the way in which it's like making its way out. And that, and I think to your point of it takes up everything. It's also like, And it's so clear to see because everything is like, feels like safe and loved.
Kyley: And so it's really clear, it's also at the same time clear, very, you can't, you can't miss it.
Eva: Well, yeah, I think to your point about the analogy of like, yeah, the water is cleaner. And so you [00:34:00] notice when something it's very, it becomes very obvious. Okay. This is so fascinating as these, as always happens, you and I have, um, I just think you always speak to things. uh, in a way that I feel are very synchronistic, I think. And, um, something that I've been noticing, I heard maybe a year ago, Tom say to me, um, I would notice something that, you know, I would maybe label as negative or uncomfortable or a problem or a spec. Let's just go with this analogy. I would notice the spec and my, um, as you know, default would be like, okay, so what do I do about this? And he said to [00:35:00] me, could it be that noticing is enough? And that stuck with me so hard. Like, my first reaction was, it was really actually, yeah, my, my, my response to that was really interesting because I felt the knee jerk reaction of like, how could that be? No way. actually quite quickly on its coattails, Was like, but what if like an openness to could it be like, and I have just been living with that More and more and then definitely more this summer as I've like on on this tour It just it it almost became like automatic where I was just experiencing the noticing like oh the noticing just noticing has been enough And, [00:36:00] and I think that comes a little bit from my meditation practice and what I've heard people talk about is like, because that which notices is already free because the part of me that is noticing is the real me, like not the, I guess like smaller I or whatever you, you might label it, but it's awareness. and that's not identified with the thing that's happening. So like for your, in your example, maybe feeling like a story of like resistance, maybe noticing resistance with like letting your husband love you fully. And the part of me that's identified goes into the stories of like, okay, well, it's because I'm this and I'm this and I didn't, I'm not, I didn't, I don't do this enough.
Eva: And he does way more of this or whatever the stories might be. And those can all exist there and there's no making them go away. And then as. is the very thing that I tell all of my meditation [00:37:00] clients. It's like, but you're not your thoughts, you're the awareness beyond your thoughts. It's like the container, the isness that holds all of it. And I think I've just been noticing so much within me just from that space. And I've been absolutely blown away, like fucking mind blown in experiencing this. I don't even know. It's so simple. It's like so simple that my mind almost wants to reject it because it's not complicated. It doesn't give me anything to do,
Eva: but it, but it's
Kyley: but doing is actually fucking resistance, right?
Eva: well doing from, I guess, think a sense of, Like,
Kyley: is often creating a, um, like a extra step, [00:38:00] right? It's like, oh, when the logic is, oh, I have to do this in order to have that, we are immediately actually creating a condition on receiving,
Eva: hmm. Mm hmm. Mm
Kyley: So the doing that's like this organic, like, Ooh, I am crying. I'm sad. And I want to cry. Okay. The doing there is crying, but it's really a being cause it just like rises up out of you.
Kyley: Right. As opposed to like, Oh no, I have to do X, Y, and Z in order to receive love, receive healing, receive wealth, all of those. And sometimes we have to walk that's not, that's just part of the process. Right. But. It's inherently actually creating a condition
Eva: Mm hmm.
Kyley: and the truth is unconditional love. So the noticing is unconditional love.
Eva: Yes.
Eva: And
Eva: it, and then I don't like take people and like, I want to take like my computer and like to, to our, to your listeners, I want to be like, I just want to share this with [00:39:00] everybody because it's like, it can be, try it on, you know, just try it on the noticing. Just could it be that noticing is enough just in this moment and, and, and again, then something else will come in and could be like resistance to that or judgment or, I mean, maybe you're totally stoked on it and you're like, I, you know, I already got this cool.
Eva: This is my practice. And other people are like, uh, I don't know, maybe. Irritated, I don't have no idea what the response is, but that's just more noticing. You just notice, notice, notice, notice, notice. And in my noticing, there's just nothing for my internal suffering to hold onto. There's no friction. And so it dissolves. back into awareness, back into consciousness. And I've just been like, it's just such a fucking trip, dude. It's been such a trip. [00:40:00] And also, and again, it's not like this for me all the time. There are many things that I guess, you know, where I'm unconscious and, um, don't have the space or the capacity for the noticing. Um, and also I'm really excited about the promises or the potential of this gentle practice of just being. You know, I'm being, like, being more identified awareness, I suppose, than, say, the human limited mind brain.
Kyley: one of my, one of the practices that I love that helps me really be in trust of the noticing is enough is this really simple prayer. And I'm, I'm sure I've talked about this in the podcast before, where if I notice like a pattern of suffering before I go to sleep, I love to do it before I go to sleep at [00:41:00] night.
Kyley: You can do it anytime, but this is just my practice is often is I will just say the prayer like, okay, whatever kind of. Healing, I might need to like, I'm ready to release this pattern of suffering. I see it for what it is. I don't need it anymore. And I let it go. And if there's something that spirit life source deems I need in order to let it go.
Kyley: I'm wide open while I'm asleep.
Eva: Mm hmm. Uh huh.
Kyley: And that I think has helped, that has helped my mind because I, and then I, oh, I always feel it shift and feel different on the other side. And that I think has really been a gift to my mind. The part of my mind that, that likes the doing, you know, is like, no, no, no. See baby girl.
Kyley: It's not, the doing is not your job.
Eva: Mm. Wait. So, I love this. What you're saying is, um, the practice isn't to intentionally, like, let your, or [00:42:00] set it up so that you're telling yourself that something is happening in your sleep.
Kyley: Yeah. I'm like offering it up. Like
Eva: you're, like, really open, yeah. Mm. Mm.
Kyley: I don't need this pattern. You know, and I'm someone who has lots of profound experiences of receiving like deep healing while I've been awake. Right. And so my system's like, yeah, magic is real. Healing's real. And so my, my, my practice is like, I see this pattern of suffering.
Kyley: I I'm willing to let it go. And if there's something I need in order to be able to let it go, like, okay, you have full permission source to like, you know,
Eva: I love that. Mm-Hmm?
Kyley: magic me up blindly sleep.
Eva: Yeah.
Eva: That's beautiful. Hmm,
Kyley: I wrote down while we were talking, I just wrote the line, I swim in the waters of unconditional love.
Eva: hmm.
Kyley: And then as I was writing, I was doing it with like colored markers. And then as I was writing that you asked this question, what if the noticing was enough? And it's funny because when you [00:43:00] ask the question, it was like, it was about noticing our perceived absence of love.
Kyley: But as I look at my page, it's actually telling a different story, which is like I swim in the waters of unconditional love. And what if the noticing
Eva: Hmm.
Kyley: unconditional love. Which I kind of love.
Eva: Chaka bra. That's like the whole game right there.
Kyley: Yeah. And I shared this funny meme last week. The fish doesn't know it's swimming, right? We don't actually know that we're swimming in unconditional love because we just haven't quite figured that out yet. And also,
Eva: Well, I think we're getting closer.
Kyley: there's, I want to like, just retrace my steps a moment. And I don't want to ask you a question. We were talking about, um, you said something about, you know, can I really Let my husband love me or something. It was the phrase, but I think the thing that's important [00:44:00] to note in this situation, he already loves me a wild, incredible amount.
Kyley: What I actually have to decide is if I'm going to let it in.
Eva: Right. Yes.
Kyley: My resistance to it, my perception of it, my willingness to receive it doesn't actually change the fact of how much he loves me. I just maybe dampened our mutual enjoyment of how much we love each other. Right. But, but it, it is, and I can either resist it or I can let it in or be somewhere on the spectrum of that.
Kyley: And when, so one of the questions that I'm asking myself, again, when I watched these like very subtle contractions is, um, what am I interested in loving more? My husband or my stories of unworthiness?
Eva: Well, I think that's a big [00:45:00] question because it sounds like an obvious answer, but I think the truth is sometimes we don't, I think some of us are really interested in loving our stories of unworthiness more.
Kyley: A thousand percent. That's exactly. Yes. And that's why I've been asking that question. Cause when I noticed the contraction of like, I'm not good enough. Oh, I didn't do this thing. I said I would, or, Oh, I should be more or less of whatever, but ever the story, they don't even make sense. Right. That has, that has been a really powerful way of engaging with them is like, I see you.
Kyley: And also, what are we choosing? What's more important here, this story of unworthiness with that I clearly love because I've been carrying around for almost 40 decades or the love I have for my husband because actually one in this moment, they're, they're actually kind of creating tension.
Eva: That's so beautiful because that is the noticing. Like that's a wonderful example of like, You don't even have to do anything about it. It's just like, okay, like you're noticing. And even if you notice that [00:46:00] you are choosing, or it's even not even what you're choosing, it's just noticing that that's like kind of what's happening.
Eva: That's what's on the table. And just interesting. Okay. I noticed that this is the thing that's happening. And
Eva: I think our natural, over time, not necessarily automatically, but over time, our natural intelligence leads us to a place where we're like, okay, if I can notice from a neutral place that has no judgment, no right or wrong, no good or bad, I think the natural intelligence eventually goes like, I don't think I'm interested in the one in the story that hurts anymore.
Eva: I'm actually more interested in the story that brings me peace and prosperity and happiness. Like, that's interesting. And it becomes, yeah, really, it can be, you know, It can be without friction, which has been so mind blowing to me.
Kyley: that feels like the without friction feels like part of what you're speaking to around the like, can the noticing be enough?
Eva: exactly.
Kyley: Okay, I want to ask you what life has been [00:47:00] teaching you, and I suspect some of these, there might be some overlap
Kyley: here between what we're talking about, but I am so curious. So excited to hear more about this really rich experience of travel and retreats and, uh, love that you've been swimming in
Eva: Yeah. So I honestly just feel like I'm a little girl right now, like gushing to my friend. because I haven't had a chance to really sit down and, um, the fact that I've just gone on, for me, the trip of a lifetime. Like, I think I've just experienced something pretty miraculous and still trying to make sense of it, but also in some ways actually not needing to also, because I think I'm just have been noticing life, lifing and I don't need to put a big story on it.
Eva: But, but the exciting piece is that I, Um, was traveling for [00:48:00] two plus months. So after I left Brazil, I went to, I went to El Salvador. And then after El Salvador, I went to, um, Spain, no Quebec, it was Quebec and then Spain and then Italy and then LA on the circuit of retreats with my partner, Tom, um, who next week's episode, we're going to be sharing the big. The episode in which I
Eva: talk about that
Kyley: reveal.
Eva: yeah, the big reveal, I suppose, um, that I feel like I've hinted to and alluded to so many times throughout, but you know, we've been together for a year and I haven't, we haven't, like, I haven't really talked about it. And so, um, that's, that's coming out next week.
Eva: And. It's just been a crazy fucking ride and I've got to meet so many amazing people and be in the depths of humanity [00:49:00] and like people's internal worlds. Um, and I think that's actually probably been the most fascinating part to me. And yeah, people have asked me, like, you know, who are familiar with Tom's work and who have gone to these retreats because these treats can truly be like, Psychedelic, like these longer seven day ones.
Eva: It's like they are. They just open up my heart and my mind so much that it becomes, it's like there is no separation. It's like what I feel like when I'm on plant medicine and I'm just really open and really receptive and things just get kind of weird. And so for people who have been on these retreats, they're like, Oh my God, like, are you just like a puddle of goo now?
Eva: Like, are you enlightened? Like what's going on with you? That was actually making me feel a lot of pressure. Like I felt like I
Eva: was noticing like all these stories of like, Oh my God, am I getting it? Like, am I getting it right? Like, am I making the most out of this? Um, if I'm not like getting anything out of it, does it mean that I'm just dumb and, and, and I don't know how to [00:50:00] like apply and I'm a feign pony and I'm a fake. And also just the sense of like, it was making me have sort of these, this extractive experience where I was also just like in a scrutinizing mode being like, okay, like tracking, like, am I, is this getting better? Is this getting better? Like, am I becoming. You know, looking for proof, essentially, that like this work was working.
Eva: So
Kyley: Are you a pile of goo now?
Eva: Oh my God, Kylie. I love you. You are the best. Well, I do have to say. Again, I'm still like reeling from the experience because so much fucking shit came up for me and it wasn't all like what I mean, a lot of it was that like this experience worked to me because, um, and I mean that in the best way as in a lot of my shit came up because I think it comes up because we're ready to look at it and it's like ready to go. But I was [00:51:00] like, wow, I still have a lot of shit. Like, you know, here I am thinking I'm, you know, have been on this path. Not because I ever think it ends, but it was just very humbling. It was so humbling to see things come up again or things that I didn't even think were a problem. Like, insecurity was a huge piece of, like, noticing all these insecurities that were coming up with me, where I felt like I was literally in junior high again or something.
Eva: Like, it was reminiscent of being, like, an anxious adolescent girl who was, like, trying to find herself in the world. And in some ways, it was challenging, but there wasn't actually any piece that there I don't actually feel like there are any loose ends. And so part of me is just wanting to like gush with you, Kylie, my friend about like all the things that just like, it's more just like themes that happened and, [00:52:00] um, and, and, and feeling, you know, Self conscious around people that I was meeting or even having questions about like my physical appearance and age and like all of these things. Um, and love and relationship and friendships, I feel like and money and my job and my power, like everything was looked at a little bit. And I. I think, I think the real measure of how I am doing is how much I'm just enjoying life in the present moment. I don't, you know, that sounds like so simple, but it's like, it's, it's almost like in every moment I really do experience an opportunity to come back into awareness and peace and joy and bliss and gratitude.
Eva: And it's just all right here. And I think I'm able to experience that much more [00:53:00] because I'm not so much. Because I've questioned, like, all those things that came up for me that I just mentioned. I've just spent, like, two months questioning them and noticing them and investigating them, that they don't have, like, the same weight anymore.
Eva: It's like, they don't, like I was saying, like, there's nothing to stick to. There's nothing, it's so odd. It's a very odd experience. It's, it's like, there's just, there's no, when there's no self condemn, what I really notice is that when there's no self condemnation and there's no right or wrong for me, anything that feels like tension. It, tension needs to, like, tension only exists if there's something resisting against it, right? Like, let's say something comes in, like a negative thought, it can only be tension if there's something within me that resists that, but there's nothing there that's resisting it. And so it just dissolves. I'm like, this is so weird.
Eva: What a weird fucking experience. Especially noticing all of my self condemnation because I'm, what I'm noticing is that it is incessant. It is so insanely incessant. I, even on this [00:54:00] podcast, I've noticed probably 20 times where I has some sort of like self doubt thought come in and it And I notice it, and then nothing resists against it, and then dissolves back into awareness.
Kyley: Oh, I love what you're speaking to because I've also been watching a lot. I mean, everything that I shared about the resistance for me keeps coming back to this point. Place of I've been calling it self loathing. You're calling it self condemnation, but it's it's like protection I've been watching how much like Self condemnation is trying to be a protector and it's just causing like Suffering on suffering on suffering and it's I saw this really beautiful Clip from a speech from this person whose name I can never remember but listeners Might know them.
Kyley: They are this really fabulous, um, uh, gender queer person who's always wearing like really, really bright, colorful dresses. They're East Asian.
Eva: Oh, a [00:55:00] a aloc.
Kyley: Hello. Yes.
Kyley: Thank you. Thank you. I love, I love them.
Kyley: And
Kyley: we're talking about this very theme and basically offering that the protection that self loathing offers is, um, I'll hate myself better and faster than you ever could.
Eva: Mm-Hmm. Yeah. Oh
Eva: my God.
Kyley: And so what I'm curious about for our listeners and for me, uh, what does the process look like of letting the resistance pop up? And then basically, cause basically what you're speaking to is self condemnation is its own kind of resistance to love, to presence. And then what you're talking about is kind of like not resisting the resistance.
Kyley: And so, right. So self loathing or self condemnation shows up, self judgment, it pops up. And then what you're saying is. [00:56:00] your way of being with it that lets it kind of just fade back in. Um, and I'm curious, I'm curious if you could walk us through what that holding looks like for you to pull back the curtain a little on my question.
Kyley: I specifically Ask this, I think, because you talk about the practice of questioning your beliefs. And I, and I've watched you do this and I see how powerful it is. But I think some of us engage with what we think, we think we're questioning beliefs, but we're actually just judging our beliefs. we get in that kind of echo chamber of like, I believe that I'm worthless.
Kyley: And then we're like, no, you're not worthless. You're amazing. And then we get in like that noise and we think we're questioning our beliefs, but we're actually just creating more pain. And
Eva: Mm hmm. We're arguing. Yeah, it's like we're
Eva: arguing with with it. To your first question, I think we're already, I've already, we're already talking about it. Cause you were asking me like, how do I experience that? And it's the, [00:57:00] the noticing. So what I mean is taking, for example, let's say I'm have a thought about some critical thought about. my body. Either, and when I say my body stuff showed up, it could either be like physically, but also just death, like mortality, like my body's not functioning the way I want it to be. Noticing how identified I am, even as a body, like just noticing how much I resist pain. But okay, let's just say it's something about like, I don't like the way that my stomach looks, something, whatever. And it's really just like the thought comes in. And I just, it's almost like the dialogue is, oh, she is thinking, like, she doesn't like the way her stomach looks. That's not how I would have ever described it. I'd never thought to, this is the first time I've ever really thought to describe it that way. But it's such the noticing as in there's a separation between me and the thought that it's like, oh, she doesn't like, she doesn't like that. There's a noticing. And it's like this spaciousness around where I'm not like, Oh, and then my stomach does this. And while it doesn't look good when I wear this and [00:58:00] then blah, blah, blah.
Eva: And I'm being insecure. And then, and then the other thing that I love to do is being like, Oh, now you're just being vain and you're being insecure. And you're being superficial where I layer even more judgment on top of that. And then it just can go and go and go.
Kyley: Yes. Yes.
Eva: like, it's just, but it's, but it's almost without language.
Eva: It's just a noticing. That's it. That's there. And then I go back to having conversation. with my friend, like, because I'm not ignoring it, but I'm also not pushing it away. It's like,
Kyley: Yeah.
Eva: Hey, there it is. And it really does feel like it just doesn't have anything to stick to or, or, or, or fight.
Kyley: I'm noticing as you're saying this, how much this is also clearly a, a strength you have built up from your meditation practice. Like I can feel the way this is connected to a meditation practice where the thoughts come and then they go and they come and then they go,
Eva: Well, actually for sure, my meditation practice has helped with this, but I want to, what I found to be so fascinating is, and I would love to spend more time talking about this more on a separate episode, but as I think, you [00:59:00] know, I've really gotten deeper into Byron Katie's The Work in this past year. And so I thought I knew what it was,
Eva: and I'm like, as it is when you learn, go deeper with any practice, I'm like, oh my god, it is like so much more nuanced and profound as I get to know it. Because what I've noticed with Byron Katie's The Work, which is what all of these retreats were about, is, is, It is noticing. It's, it's the thing that's helped me notice. So I, you're right in that I've gotten more refined at my ability to notice. And it started with a meditation practice and it's continued with Byron Katie's The Work.
Eva: Because The Work is very much like asking yourself, how do you react when you believe this thought? So how do I react when I believe that I don't like the way my stomach looks? And I track, really, Neutrally, or not even neutrally. I can just track like the one that notices is already free. So that's part of me.
Eva: That's just awareness of being like, Oh, why start to feel insecure? And then I judge myself. And then I'm like [01:00:00] being weird about what I wear or whatever, you know, and I'm just noticing and, and there's something really kind
Kyley: Yeah. I'm hearing in the noticing a phrase that I use sometimes is like, make nothing wrong. And so I'm hearing in the noticing is like, oh, I don't. Yes, I use, I will often say like this part, some part of me, but you're saying that she like doesn't, You know, doesn't like the way your stomach looks and then as we were saying, sometimes then we condemn the condemnation and that feeds this like really, which, which also the, the ego, which we don't need to hate our ego.
Kyley: It's just a part of us, right? But, but the ego, like, well, it just wants an identity. It doesn't really care what the identity is. And so before we are like fighting about which identity we pick, it's like, just, it's just reinforcing. Um, I. [01:01:00] I have a question specifically, I'm thinking of our listeners who maybe have like persistent, like, okay, a story comes in, right?
Kyley: You know?
Eva: And I would like, love to share with you and our audience, like so much more about the experiences that have come up because they've been with it. I, I I can't, I just, I can't imagine that they're not going to color my life, but I'm also seeing now, like, I don't actually think it's realistic to, it's just to cram it all into one episode.
Eva: I think they'll probably more like trickle out into the conversations that we have in the next few months. But one thing, two things that I really want to talk about are your question was like, am I a goo? And I actually think a lot of this, my experience was here to set me up for the next phase of my life, which is going to Taiwan in two weeks to be with my parents, who like, even since I'm talking about this, I'm going to get emotional [01:02:00] because my dad's in the ER again for the third time. I don't know, third or fourth time. And my mom, you know, there's just like a lot going on. I don't, I don't even know, um, how much I've shared on the podcast. I, again, I've alluded to, but I don't know how specific I've been and maybe I have spoken to it, Kylie. I don't, you might remember it, but like at the age of 75, like 70 in their mid seventies, my parents are getting separated after a very. Unique and tumultuous and sometimes loving relationship. And, um, so the challenge is like, what I've really have seen this past year is like, Oh, I had this really loving relationship with my mom previously. And I love telling the story about how I healed my relationship with my mom and, And that was very true. And then all of a sudden when they got divorced or now that they were getting split last, they started splitting last year, the paradigm shift, because there was always my dad in the [01:03:00] mix who was there to take care of my mom and like mitigate things. Who my mom, you know, as listeners know, my mom struggles with mental health and alcoholism and her physical health is, has never, has not been good in a long time. So just noticing that with my parents split, like, it's just reshaped my relationship with my mom and brought up a lot of issues. things that new and old, um, that I don't have a judgment about really in any way. It's just like, again, a noticing. I'm like, Oh yeah, like I, I need to, like how things were three years ago or not how they are now.
Eva: And so I'm just noticing how things are just different and they've been more challenging and I'm far away. And I have a lot of stories of like guilt about that, about being far away and what is my role, all of that stuff. So I was really nervous to leave Brazil. This place where I had found so much like divine peace and happiness.
Eva: [01:04:00] And it was literally
Kyley: coon of love.
Eva: Yes. And a cocoon of love with, with my partner and mother nature and God, you know, it was like, it was so beautiful and is so beautiful. Um, and I was like, so nervous about going back to Taiwan. noticing how short my, my, my, um, fuse is now with her. And I think I'm really interested in seeing how I show up with my family after this, these experiences. Um, and what I mean by that, it isn't that I'm not going to, what happens is like, I blow up with my mom because she drives me crazy. And this, and I think. It's going to be about, it's going to be about like giving myself complete permission to do that, which is also part of the allowing and which is different from the [01:05:00] resistance, you know, of like being like, I shouldn't do that, blah, blah, blah.
Eva: So this is my way of sort of answering of like, Oh, I'm really curious to see how these experiences support me, I think, in the next couple of months. Yeah. And I, I do want to like maybe, um, hint at a, at something that I want to speak to at some point with you. And you and I have barely scratched the surface of this at one point, I think, but I think it's becoming more and more of a big theme in my life is like noticing that I don't even know what love is. And I think I've said that to you before, maybe like more offline, just in our friend chats, but like one of the themes from my travels is being like, we're taught a certain thing. We're taught that love looks a certain way, and, and we conflate romantic love with familial [01:06:00] love, like, friendship love, like, it's all, like, Um, or now we complete them, I think we like label them like this is what romantic love looks like and this is what family love looks like, but I'm talking more like this capital L love and I'm seeing like, oh my God, like all the ways that my parents taught me to love them. I'm, it's been really challenging for me as especially an Asian from my Asian background. I mean, I think we all experienced this, but my story is that, you know, I get a lot of this, um, Like, you know, teaching from my Asian heritage, it's like all the ways that they taught me of what love is, is like, I'm seeing that maybe that isn't actually love and to undo that and to go back and love them in the way that I think love might be, which is going to be different from what they think love is, is going to be really challenging. And, [01:07:00] and, and I think there's one other theme that I had for my time is like, I have all these thoughts about how like things will be scary or like, you know, if I live without rules or if I let myself be totally free, like it's going to be really scary. But what I really saw one day very clearly is like, there's only one way to find out. And that is to fucking go and do it and experience an experiment. Like I can't, it's not a philosophy or a theory that lives in the mind. Like I want to find out for myself. I saw that so clearly. Like this is, this is a, an, a trait of mine of like, I need to know for myself because no one else can ever tell me how it is. There's only one way that I will ever really know anything. And that is through. fucking experience. And so it's like, there is this sort of like, let's go, like, let's, let's see, let things be totally out of control. Like, let's just actually see if I can let things be totally out of control and see if I'll still be [01:08:00] safe. And I was only one way for me to find out. And that, and that's also connected to this, this experience of like loving my family, of like, yeah. Like love is not obligation. You know what I mean? Love is not, not even necessarily time. Sometimes it is time and sometimes it's not. And this is, this is, this is really big for me for someone who's, who has a lot of like enmeshment and codependency with her family.
Kyley: I mean, I'm feeling so deeply everything that you're saying and we're kind of at episode time. So I will, I really think there's so much here that I would just love to talk with you about. Um, I think a lot about how the universe is, is unconditional love. And on some level we have no fucking clue what that actually is.
Kyley: Right? Because all, because [01:09:00] all the people who have loved us are humans with their, you know,
Eva: Yes.
Kyley: inherent conditions that they don't even mean to place, or we perceive their, um, as placing it. Right? There's just so many ways in which I'm at awe. I'm in awe of
Kyley: doing our best to live kind of in devotion to allowing unconditional love while having actually no fucking clue what that means.
Eva: Seriously, dude, having no clue. And I think, I think like I'm setting this intention and I'm like, Oh, I might regret this in like a month. But like, it feels like the intention here is like, let's find out,
Eva: like, let's fucking find out. And I got glimpses of it on these retreats where I felt like the, where I did feel. The unconditional love of life, you know, Tom says, like, life holds nothing against us. It's just [01:10:00] me that's holding it against me and life holds nothing against me. And I saw that one day and I just started sobbing and sobbing and sobbing because I was like, Oh my God, it's so beautiful. And I felt all this grief for how much pain I've caused myself over all these years, because I hold it against myself, not life. And I was like, You know, and that was the letting love kill me moment of like, love is the, is like the thing that we actually fear the most because love is what causes death. That's kind of what I brought in that quote where
Eva: I was like, love is the thing that kills. And I think a Byron Katie quote is like, love kills anything that isn't itself. It just kills every part of us that isn't really us. That's
Eva: And it's
Kyley: great paradox of it is that also love is, everything is love. So
Eva: Yeah, it's
Kyley: kills everything that isn't itself and also everything that belongs
Kyley: is itself fucking love.
Eva: Yes.
Kyley: Oh. Mmhmm.
Eva: Okay, wait, I know we're out of time, but there's one [01:11:00] more thing I'm dying to say because this is just, I'm just putting this here as a, as what do you call it? Like a piece in the video game where you come back to it later? Anyway, um, for our future conversation about like, what is love actually? Or what is, do we even know what love is?
Kyley: There's so much I want to say. So I'm not surprised you also are bursting at the scene. So we'll just make our, maybe our next episode is like, what the hell is love?
Eva: Yes, um. Yeah, like, I'm like, oh my god, I feel like we're just getting started. I'm
Kyley: I know. I know. I know.
Kyley: Okay. There's a million things to say here, and I'm so moved by what you're sharing. And I'm wondering if it's time that we transition to joy.
Eva: Yes, we'll have to this is TBD because I feel like we're just scratching the surface and we're just getting started. Um, but it feels so good to be back with you, Kylie. It feels so good to be back on the podcast. I love all of you guys and I love this space. And again, I feel really, really just ridiculously humbled that [01:12:00] people come in.
Eva: Listen.
Kyley: Yes.
Eva: Okay.
Kyley: What, my love, is bringing you joy right now?
Eva: Oh my gosh. It feels hard to pick just one thing. Um, I think the noticing piece that we talked about, I have great love for. I think I have a lot of love for all the people that I've just met in these past two months. I mean, it was people from all over the world and, you know, our people, Kylie, like people who love doing the internal excavation. We're not afraid. to really look for the truth. And I'm also really happy just to be settled down in California for two weeks because I've been on the road and it feels so nice just to have like really simple creature comforts, like really organized Tupperware at my brother's house. And, um, I don't know, just like creature comforts, creature comforts and oh my God, time to myself.
Eva: That is making me really happy time to myself. I'm as an introvert who was on that much, doing that much socializing. Yeah. My body is just recuperating. So. Those are the [01:13:00] things that are bringing me joy. And what about you, my dear friend?
Kyley: Listeners of the show might have observed that I have had an ambiguous relationship to where I live, or an ambivalent, ambivalent is the word I meant, ambivalent relationship to where I live. Um, you know, my house itself often feels small, but the town that I live in was kind of picked out of convenience for commute and, you know, flexibility and I have had this incredible experience of really falling in love with where I live.
Kyley: Because all of a sudden we have this really, really rich community and Uh, my little downtown that we can walk to is getting a bunch more stuff. Like there's a new coffee shop. That's really good. We had another coffee shop that was like, not that great. Now we have another one that's really good. And, um, a couple of new restaurants coming in.
Kyley: So that's really fun, [01:14:00] but we have all these friends, like my kids have friends and I am, and I am friends with their parents and I like them. It's not the convenience. Like, oh yeah, we can kind of talk or at the point it's like, no, these are my real friends that I talk to. Cause I want to, and their kids are friends with my kids.
Kyley: And. A lot of them are close, like walking distance close. Like one of my growing mom friends, she and her, her son is on the same bus stop as me. And so the other day I got to the bus stop and I was like, Oh my gosh, I had this intense day at three client sessions that were all kind of intense.
Eva: on. Sorry, Kylie. Sorry. Sorry.
Kyley: That's okay.
Eva: I need to go to the Okay. Yeah, sorry. Be done. But it, yeah. [01:15:00] Oh yeah. The kids. Is that, yeah, you're done. Yeah. Yeah. Thank you. Okay. So are you just gonna give us an estimate if that works? Yeah. Okay. Bye. Alright, sorry about that.
Kyley: Oh, that's okay. That's okay. I can pick up where I'm good.
Eva: Okay, but also, [01:16:00] I love this light that's coming in, but I can't see your face and it always
Kyley: know.
Eva: see your face.
Kyley: Here we go. Here we go.
Kyley: Um For example, a good friend of mine, her son is in Birdie's class, same bus stop as me the other day. We were chatting at the bus stop about how I had a busy day and a bunch of stuff going on.
Kyley: And she goes, Why don't I take the kids to the playground, which you can walk to from the bus stop, and why don't you walk, go for a little walk and come meet us in a half an hour?
Eva: Oh my gosh!
Kyley: I was like, are you, and I, and I know her well enough to know that it was, she's like, it was a genuine offer. I wasn't even in a bad mood.
Kyley: It wasn't even one of those moments where I was like, Oh my God, I'm drowning. I was just like chatting about having had a busy day. And she was like, why don't you just take a half hour to yourself? Come meet us at the playground. And. It was so, I mean, like the epitome of abundance and generosity. And I am having so many moments like this of like really rich community here.
Kyley: And [01:17:00] it specifically feels like I get to be myself in this community. And, um, and they love me and they love my kids and we're moms in it together. And, um, I don't think I thought that would ever happen to you.
Eva: yeah.
Kyley: I don't know why I had the story that it wouldn't happen here, but I did. And I finally got out of my own way enough to have the thing I've been asking
Eva: Let it in.
Kyley: to let it in and it's fucking great.
Eva: amazing. I
Eva: love that.
Kyley: Yeah.
Eva: Okay, so quick request to our guests. If you like this show, it really, really does help if you subscribe. Well, two things really help. I want to make a sincere request to those of you who, who are listening, who've been listening or are new to the show. Um, if you subscribe to the show, it actually does help with our ratings, our searchability, the algorithm, the dang algorithm, uh, [01:18:00] getting better guests.
Eva: Like it really is just a way to support us. And that would mean the world to both Kylie and myself because we love making this show.
Kyley: And as a follow up, if you are already subscribing, would you share the show with a friend? Uh, I know all of the new podcasts I listen to are because someone has recommended it. And so if you love our show and we have provided comfort or curiosity for you over the years, and you have a friend who's also a curious explorer of the human psyche, share an episode with them.
Kyley: Invite them to listen too. We would really appreciate it. We really, really, really cherish your support and all the ways that you already provide it. And if that was available to you, we'd love that too.
Kyley: We love you. Bye.