We’re back on the topic of overwhelm. This time asking how to make discipline feel loving and build structure that is generous.
We’re back on the topic of overwhelm. This time asking how to make discipline feel loving and build structure that is generous.
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Kyley's Instagram: @kyleycaldwell
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[00:00:00]
Eva: Hi friends, Eva here. Welcome to part two of Undoing Overwhelm. This is a continuation of the conversation that Kyley and I started two weeks ago, um, where we talk about, you know, the very common issue of what do we do when we feel like we do not have enough time and we have really big goals and there's a lot of things that we want to do and we have a lot of big desires in our life and it just feels like it does not fit and we get into the swirl of stress and You know, lack and scarcity and trying to also just, I think [00:01:00] sometimes logistically from a practical standpoint, trying to figure out how does it all fit?
Eva: How does it all fit? Sometimes it just feels like too much, especially with Kyley. I mean, we all have our things, but you know, um, she's a mother of two small kids and she runs her own business. And I think she's a perfect example of someone who is navigating life, um, with, you know, juggling a million things.
Eva: So the thing about overwhelm is oftentimes it's not just about. the practical, although that can be really helpful, but it's about what's underneath, right? Like, and what's causing all of the scarcity and the fear and the tightness and the controlling and all of that stuff. And how do we get back into a place of flow?
Eva: And we really spend some time in part two uncovering and going underneath and underneath to see, well, but what's actually at the heart of it, like, how are we feeling, you know, what's going on in our bodies? Um, And I'm hoping, and I believe, I trust that in sharing her [00:02:00] experience as we continue to unpack and see what's at the root of all of this, it can lend you some perspective and insight on your own experience as well, so that we can come back into a place of more trust, surrender, flow, which is, I think, a place that we all, Um, would love to reside in more.
Eva: So we hope you enjoy this episode. If you like it, please like, subscribe, write a review. All those things really do help. Um, and we are so grateful to have you here. Enjoy the show.
Eva: , but
Eva: I do actually want to segue into, um, our conversation about discipline, because I think it is so important, actually, to this conversation about, so like, how do we do our sacred work?
Eva: And this is again, a continuation from last week's conversation. But before we get to that, We have some things that we want to promote. So Kyley, what would you like to share with our lovely family here?
Kyley: If your, if your sacred work has materialized as a business, um, and you're sick and [00:03:00] tired of feeling powerlessness and full of despair, if all of this feels alive for you, but specifically as it relates to, like, You have medicine to offer and the only reason it's not fucking thriving is because of bullshit conditioning and also maybe you don't know how to write great copy. So, um, I have, uh, at the time of listening to this, I will have just wrapped up probably my best workshop to date. I can say that confidently before I've done it. So you can get the replay, um, because I've been preparing for this workshop, like, it's called Quantum Leap Your Business, um, which is a little bit cheeky when you get there, I'm gonna have pointed out how like, can we look at what quantum leap means and how that's You know, maybe, maybe that phrase is both helpful and unhelpful. Um, and you can get a, you can get the replay of that. It's amazing. And, um, Doors Are Open for Thrive, which is [00:04:00] honestly the program that's been growing in my heart for, I don't know, 16 years.
Eva: Wow. Wow.
Kyley: feels like the culmination of like, oh, it's fucking here. And the fact that I'm actually announcing it, I've been thinking I was ready. I've been thinking I was ready to announce this. Literally since September and the fact that I'm actually ready to finally announce it during the election results is its own hilarious thing because it's a, it's, it's a deep, it, this program is a deep integration of embodiment and action and, um, the very thing we're talking about here so that if your sacred work involves a business, um, you can make shit happen and get out of the cycle of frustration and powerlessness and actually even more meaningfully change the fabric of [00:05:00] the world. That's how it changes.
Eva: Yeah. Amazing.
Kyley: Come sign up for Thrive. It's going to be fucking great. Watch their, uh, masterclass Quantum Leap replay. I love y'all. How about you?
Eva: Okay. So
Kyley: like, it's go time, everybody. It's
Eva: that we talked about our secret medicine earlier? Because I think it's just very apparent that we each have something that we're doing it and we're doing the damn thing. And that feels actually really nice. And so my secret medicine is if you are Also somebody who is about awakening and peace and liberation and believe that it is an inside fucking job.
Eva: And this is actually how we can contribute to the world. I have my new program, which I'm trying out, which I'm excited about. I like the sort of trial phase. It's called Pocket Mentor Friendship. And if you like this podcast, you will fucking love this work together because it's essentially just unlimited telegram messages, you and me, where we can have [00:06:00] Like, deep conversations about what your spiritual growth looks like, and how all these things are intertwined, and if you haven't What I really want to offer, actually, is because it's what I get so much from my pocket friendships, is that, you know, if you are in a jam, and you need fucking feedback, and you're feeling stuck, or you're really excited about something, or you're really struggling with something, you can just And you really benefit from talking about it out loud.
Eva: You have a place to go, um, where you can share all of this and get, you know, real time feedback and honestly just like have conversations that we have here with me and Kyley. But for me, it really is for, for people who like me are dedicating their life to go in all the fucking way to really letting love guide you towards what you want to do.
Eva: non separation. So if you're interested in that, um, you can message me on Instagram. It's on my website, the links in the links in the show notes. And, um, yeah, we'd love to hear from you. Okay, let's go. All right. So Kyley, [00:07:00] let's continue this conversation. Can you remind folks what, yeah, just like the context of last week's conversation and what you're bringing to the table this week?
Kyley: Last week I brought to Eva this reoccurring, uh, learning edge for me, which is about my relationship to overwhelm and. My initial question was, how does one bring in discipline and structure from a, like, really generous place, because I have previously felt like structure and routine and discipline is so coated with like shame and judgment that, uh, I have mostly avoided it. Um, which has been its own, like, really actually loving act for a while. And I have been feeling increasingly like, you know, it would really help this if you had some systems and structures and discipline. And, um, and so, I came to Eva saying, okay, help me unpack this so that I can, [00:08:00] so that I might pull in this thing that's calling me, which is to say routine and discipline. And instead, unsurprisingly, we had a whole long conversation that took us to, da da da, shame.
Eva: Yes, which is so, I think, juicy and important too. It's always like, I love it when we have, like, you and I do this thing really well. And when you help me actually do this really well, it's like, there's always the energetic, emotional, like, underneath stuff that we get to. And then there's the more, I don't know if I'd call it external, but there's also the more structured, um, answer.
Eva: And so I think in the first episode, we attended to the first piece, which was like, well, You know, like what's actually going on underneath, but now there's also like the practical piece, I guess, is what we talk is what what this conversation is a little bit more about. It's like, okay, great. When we know now, go back and listen to that episode.
Eva: I think too, if like, you're just want to get a better understanding of like,
Eva: the internal process, I think [00:09:00] that gets in the way. But now it's like, we want to have the practical conversation too.
Kyley: Yeah, right. And I think it's interesting coming off of the first half of our conversation today, uh, because a big part of the reason why there's two big reasons why I can feel the pull towards, towards more like discipline, structure, routine is, um, cause I do have big shit that I want to put forward in the world.
Kyley: And I can, I understand deeply that it's not sustainable to do it when you don't have a routine or structure or discipline. Like, you're re you're reinventing the wheel every day, every morning, right? Especially also as someone with limited executive function. Every time I have to make a decision, then that's like pulling from a like, you know, I got a smaller cup than some people. Uh, And, and so if I use all of it on decision making of like, what am I going to work on today? That's like a huge inefficiency, especially for someone like me. [00:10:00] Right. So I have big shit in the world that I want to, that I am like on fire with the hunger to like pour out and it can't fit through my existing, existing, um, limited systems. Um, and. And so there's this like hunger for like, there's this like impact that wants to move through me. And there's a depth of peace that also wants to exist inside of me. And there's a relationship to like spirit and ritual and my spiritual practices and embodiment that's also calling me that's like, and also let's be even more deeper in our practices. Um, and find out what. Might reveal itself if you like, really commit there's something about like, commitment here [00:11:00] for me also in discipline. Um, so. Basically, what I'm trying to say is I would like to be an even more powerful witch and an even bigger badass. And I think discipline is the key. established last week that, like, self love is gotta be the foundation. And now what,
Kyley: Eva?
Eva: well, also another key piece of that conversation, also the grief that comes with not being able to do it all, like actual acceptance, like, I think that's, um, kind of important. Yeah. Because that's, I think that's a lot of what you come like, where you struggle is that you have so much that you want to do.
Eva: And also, actually, you just do not have enough time to do all those things. And at some point, What happens is like, when we don't accept that, then we're working in a system that fails us. Right? Like the system's failed, and then we're constantly just, um, wailing forever.
Kyley: And trying to do everything, actually, you, as a result, you do kind of [00:12:00] nothing.
Eva: Yeah, exactly. But I feel like what you're speaking to is, well last you, I think you, it's more of a question, because I think you referenced this last time, like having resistance to discipline, right? Is that like, and I'm wondering if you could talk about that more and, yeah. Mm-Hmm. ,
Kyley: yeah.
Kyley: Okay. So one layer of it, I've already flagged, which is like, it's hard for, this has come a really long way, but for a long time, discipline immediately triggers shame because it's like, okay, I'm gonna work out three days a week. And then, which is now a thing one can pass or fail. The minute I fail it, like shame gets triggered. As a result, uh, which is actually like an unkind and of course, nothing, no one's ever perfect, but our perfectionist doesn't give a shit about that. And so, um, our inner perfectionist, and so it was like, emotionally, it's like kind of emotionally unsafe for me to engage with discipline because I don't.
Kyley: Didn't really know how to [00:13:00] engage with, yeah, let's work out three days a week. And also no big deal if you don't, but also let's keep returning to the practice of it. Right. I would like, and working out is like a random example. Um, but like, let's do it. Oh, it didn't happen. Okay. Let's just return to it. I would do it and then not because I, you know, and then immediately feel shame or I would avoid committing to the very discipline I'd picked.
Eva: Basically, you don't want to feel the shitty feelings that come with not getting the thing done, which I think everyone has, gets like, that's like so common, but everyone has a version of that. And so what you're saying for you, it's like shame. For me, it shows up as, um, it's interesting because we talked about this last week.
Eva: I kind of have a healthy relationship with like getting stuff done and disciplined, but also, also not. And so this is a growing, it's like, it's interesting. It's like, there's a, you know, There's something that I've explored a lot and I [00:14:00] think I've grown a lot from and also there's always more room for growth.
Eva: Anyway, but where I struggle is my negative reaction is that I used to be so disciplined, actually. That I essentially caused myself chronic fatigue Like I was so fucking extreme in my ways that I totally burned out and this is again classic Perfectionism over working behavior like how I can hear the people listening to this podcast who are like, oh, I know that experience I just burned out because I pushed myself too fucking hard and then so now I associate Discipline with like as a bad thing like sometimes I have like this I start to feel like a discipline and I have this aversion to it because um again, and I know these words are problematic and maybe you can help me out, but I have this like the feminine energy of like protecting me being like, no, no, no, no, no.
Eva: Discipline is bad for you, girl. Like you just need to go with the flow [00:15:00] all the time. That's where your power is. You need to like, just listen to your body and, which is true, but you know, like listen to your body and just like, and go with the flow and trust life. But I feel like sometimes that can get distorted too.
Eva: And so I'm always trying to understand like, like embodied feminine energy, embodied masculine energy, and then distorted versions of that. distorted versions of where I'm too much in my flowy flow, flow, flow, flow, that I don't ever get anything fucking done. Like, I think that's a really common thing for some spiritual folks, um, that they don't like the container.
Eva: And so they're like, well, I'll just do what spirit tells me to do, but it's not, but like, they're not doing it that in a body in, in, in an embodied way. You know, you hear what I'm saying?
Kyley: I do. That to me feels like it's ultimately on some level, it's like it's about our relationship to power and being powerful,
Eva: Can you say more about that?
Kyley: yeah, because I [00:16:00] think I think when we're in that place of like, I'm just in flaw. Look. I think I think like alignment feels like flow, right? But there can be a kind of disassociative flow, right? Or like a flow that has like, kind of avoidance or like the flow can be coddling instead of
Kyley: empowering. Right? And I think.
Eva: and then, and then, and then, sorry to interrupt, but in those moments, then it's not really flow. It's something else. Like, that's what I mean when I say it gets distorted because flow is alignment, but then sometimes what happens is we do the coddling, we do the escapism, we do the avoiding, and we call it flow, but it's not.
Eva: It's coddling, escapism, and avoiding. And so that's what I'm always trying to like, just track, you
Kyley: Well, and I think what's tricky is like sometimes it's also both at the same time, like, for example, I went through a period for probably 12 months, uh, at one point in my business where every, you know, a big part of my business rhythm is I have these free workshops. They're awesome. Like I get [00:17:00] a lot of people who come to them because they know they're really fucking great. And, um, And then I tell people what a group program and then people sign up and there was probably about a 12 month window where every single time I would do a free workshop, I would, within a couple of days after the workshop, like, get sick, get distracted, get bored, like, I just wouldn't send the follow up emails to tell people
Kyley: to hire
Eva: Oh, same. Totally. I think anyone who has, yes, guilty. Yes. Yes.
Kyley: And on some level, there was such like, delicious permission in that that was like, Baby girl, like you do not need to hustle. You do not need to strive. You do not need to fucking burn yourself out to keep earning and proving that you're good enough for people to pay you. And, at the exact same time, it was totally a disassociated relationship with my power that was like, And also I'm fucking great!
Kyley: And what, what an, what a unkindness to not tell you how great this could be.
Kyley: And therefore, what option, opportunities might open up from it.
Kyley: And so I think what's [00:18:00] tricky is that it's both at the same time and sometimes we really, we actually need that almost coddling. You've talked before about the pendulum swing, right? It's like, sometimes we need permission to be like, well, maybe it actually is okay to like totally enable yourself and hide from your power so that you can actually swing back to center and have a more integrated relationship.
Kyley: And I sometimes think about it. It's like, you know, when kids have that, like, uh, like. I don't think you're supposed to call it a lazy eye, but I don't know what it's actually called. Everyone would know if they could see me because I have my hand covering one of my eyes.
Kyley: But like when one eye is stronger than
Kyley: the other and you're like a little kid, you put a patch over the strong eye so that the weaker eye can
Kyley: like develop its strength and then you take the patch off and
Kyley: they're like
Eva: girl, you are so good with these random metaphors and analogies, man, like that was such a random one. That really works. Wow. Once again, amazing.
Kyley: So I [00:19:00] actually use that one a lot.
Kyley: So that was, that was
Eva: though. I didn't actually know you put the patch over the stronger
Kyley: yes! You do it with a strong eye. And so sometimes I think we like swing, right? So we've been like very disciplined, but like from this, like really cruel, like, you know, for me, it was just this like relentless inner critic, right? My inner narrative was just constant judgment and critique. So this period of time that was like, or don't has yes, an enablement to it, but I fucking needed that because I couldn't regulate, like I
Kyley: couldn't, you know, Regulate. And I feel like this moment in particular feels like I'm standing in the center, you know, maybe swaying a little bit side to side, but there's a sense of like feet in both sides, um, which I think is now where I'm like, okay, now I could bring discipline in
Kyley: and it would have a different flavor.
Eva: Yes.
Kyley: eyepatch has come off,
Eva: Woohoo, baby. Yeah, I love it. Okay. So I love it. So your question is, [00:20:00] What do we, yeah, now, now, you know, how, where do we go from here once the eyepatch has come off, once we've gotten out of the disassociative swinging?
Kyley: Yeah, there's, and the word that's coming to mind too is like, integration. Right? It's like, How do I integrate? I do feel like a kind of equilibrium, internal equilibrium has been reached, and so how do I integrate it? And systems and structures. And I've been building, I mean, I, system and structures feels like it's part of it in part, because it's happening organically, right?
Kyley: Like all of a sudden I have these, I've been trying to figure out certain systems in my, in the inner workings of my business for five years.
Kyley: Right. And like the past week, two huge constant places of churn. I'm like, Oh, here's the system. Boom, boom, boom, boom, boom. It's a three
Kyley: page Google doc. Here you go team.
Kyley: Um, cause there's a, like, it's like the internal capacities there to actually Do the integration and and I think this is also I want to bring this question to you. I'm not actually that good at [00:21:00] it's far, right? Like,
Eva: You're not cut out a little bit. You're not actually what?
Kyley: oh, I'm not actually that good at systems and structure and routine, right? Like, I, I share with people quite often.
Kyley: There is. One thing that I care about organizing and it's ideas outside of that. I don't give a shit. Like I have like very intensive systems around like index cards around my curriculum.
Eva: Mm hmm. Yep.
Kyley: I have the only like. Functional folder on, like, all of my photos is the folder of books that I want to
Eva: Yes.
Kyley: I am fully and properly a mad scientist who only ever cares about, like, organizing.
Kyley: Like, a client came to me the other day, and I, like, went to town, like, doing all this index cards, ordering, like, her business structure. And, uh, and she was cracking up because she knows how much I am, like, Late for things, confused,
Kyley: like forgetting to send out links. And I was like, and she was like, oh, it's okay if you don't organize this.
Kyley: I was like, no, no, this is [00:22:00] the only thing I care
Eva: yeah.
Kyley: right? So, and would like gladly completely forget to eat and like, you know,
Kyley: never, you know,
Eva: Yeah.
Kyley: mad scientist. And so my brain doesn't lend itself towards structures. In that way. And so then what I end up doing, which is like a very classic ADHD thing, is I make like what I call like these Rube Goldberg systems, where they're just like way more convoluted and complicated and like precise than they need to be.
Kyley: So they're kind of setting to fail from the get
Kyley: go, because they just like,
Eva: Okay. But so I'm just gonna, because I feel like what you're talking about now is systems, which I think is different also from, there's a crossover, but like also I think at least my understanding was the main topic is like discipline though. Yeah.
Kyley: really overlapped in my mind, right? That like, because when I'm also talking about systems, I'm also talking about the system of like, um, Do I make lunch before I go to bed for the kids or when I wake up in the morning, right? I [00:23:00] don't necessarily all mean like back end systems in my business.
Kyley: I mean, I also am using that word to mean like, do I want to have a meditation practice? When would that happen? What would it look like to commit to it? How would it, how would it operate? So, So, and maybe this is part of my problem with discipline, is that I immediately go to the how, right? Like, you know, maybe that's what, you know, sometimes we'll have conversations and I'll like, we'll talk about some emotional thing, and you're like, but how do I, how?
Kyley: So here's my question for you, Eva, as someone who has, has a complicated relationship with discipline has taken the eye patch off, wants to be in this integration phase. What does it look like for you? Like what is a generous embodied relationship to the extent that it shows up for you look like and feel like, because I think I feel a little like I'm stepping into uncharted territory.
Eva: Hmm. Okay. Well, something that has [00:24:00] been so helpful for me, I don't know if you're going to like this answer, actually. It's one of those answers that I'm like, that I think that, that, which I think just points to how it's actually a more helpful and realistic answer. Um, and, um, Actually, this isn't going to shock you.
Eva: I feel like we've had a probably this conversation, a version of this conversation before, which is to say the more freedom I allow myself, the more it's easy than discipline isn't doesn't even feel like discipline. I'm just, I really am just kind of like in a flow. And because what I have found is that force always leads to resistance.
Eva: Always. Always. Like, and for me, I think there's different kinds of discipline. And I think a lot of times people come from discipline from this really unhealthy, violent, [00:25:00] forceful way. It's force. It is very much force. I'm going to force myself to sit down and write this thing. I'm going to force myself to eat this or not to eat this.
Eva: It's like restriction or something. It's like, and then always. That will never be sustainable. That's always going to fucking blow up in your face. And sometimes tenfold, right? It's like you don't eat the thing that you really want to eat. So then you end up eating three later because you're like, fuck it.
Eva: You know, like it just doesn't work. It really is just, it just doesn't work. At least for me. And that's what I've noticed actually with like a lot of people. And, um, but, Yeah, so like anytime. So for, because I guess what I just wanna say, one thing is, like, I I, for you or anyone else who this might resonate with is it's like,
Eva: are you conflating discipline with force? Because I don't actually think they're the same fucking thing. And, um,
Kyley: [00:26:00] Here's my question for you then I agree that they're not the same thing and I think up until this moment I have I think up until this moment. I have only understood how to relate to discipline as force.
Eva: or like willpower. Or willpower,
Kyley: Yeah, like the sheer force of will
Eva: yeah. Mm-Hmm. I don't know what it is if
Eva: It's power. It's force versus power. That's, that's like, that was the continuing of what I was going to say. So force never fucking works. And then it's so nice to notice because once you notice, you're like, Oh fuck, well, I don't have to do that anymore. And I think there's, there's power. And so like, for me to answer your question about how does that show up for me, there's two ways that that shows up.
Eva: There's this power of like, I really love this thing and I'm passionate about it. And I'm excited about it. Or, or this matters to me, like the other day for you. You had to watch this is really late at night because out of love for your husband and or something that you do for your kids that like, you really [00:27:00] don't want to fucking do, but I don't know.
Eva: There's a
Kyley: but they're not going to go to, I'm not gonna send them to school without lunch. Right.
Kyley: Like, like, like I met, I, I could say I forced myself to make sure they, like, I could use the word force, but it is actually like,
Eva: a choice.
Kyley: a choice that I make because I love them and I want to make sure that they have a really good day at school and having a
Eva: Yeah. snack feels
Eva: Yeah. Yeah. And so I think that's also a helpful piece that you're bringing in. It's like choice actually is power. Cause then it's, you're not. You're not, you know, it's
Kyley: It's not of course.
Eva: not for us. It's choice. You're it's a sovereign decision. And so that's like one version of what power looks like.
Eva: Um, and it could also be I think, where you're standing at right now is like, is like, I just I have all of this. Like, I can just feel it in you this palpable energy of like creative force that's like ready to go and you're excited and you're [00:28:00] passionate. And that's also power. It's like, I'm going to do this because I, because I love it.
Eva: But then I think what's tricky is then just to notice how easily we go into scarcity though, to be like, no, I'm going to do this because I love it. And just stay there in that, in that power, but then without going into, and if I don't do it, then, oh my God, then it's not going to X, Y, Z, blah, blah, blah, blah.
Eva: Then it's never going to happen. Like, then that becomes more fear, which then creates more force. So it's like really staying in that lane of power. And the other thing that's also really powerful is play. And what I mean by that is like, and this is something that I got from Tom, which has been so helpful, is like, it would be so nice, like, it's, it would be nice if this happened.
Eva: And I don't get into this clingy, attached, like, um, let's say, um, I really want to write this email, or I really want to, um, Do this retreat or I don't know I'm trying to think of examples out that are more relatable besides just like coaching But like I really want to I don't give me an example Kyley.
Eva: You're good with examples What's an [00:29:00] everyday relatable thing that people want to do?
Eva: Okay. So before we go to the example, I just feel like I want to give credit to this idea. This is a David R. Hawkins thing, power versus force. He like wrote a whole book on it. I didn't read the whole thing, but I mean, you can get, and, and I want to, but even without reading the book, I think you can get the gist of noticing the difference between power and force.
Eva: And, you know, I feel like we've, maybe talked about this before, but it is the thing that I come back to again and again, like feeling what force feels like in my body. And it is exhausting, right? Because I have a limited amount of energy and then feeling what power feels like, which is the, which is the exact opposite.
Eva: It's energy giving. But again, what I like to play with is like, what does power feel like? Because it shows up in all these different ways. So, okay. Let's say the example is like, you want to go to sleep earlier, wake up earlier. That's an example. That's something that I always want to do. And, um, I used to come at it from this energy of like, I have to, and if [00:30:00] it, and again, that forceful place that felt like real attachment.
Eva: And now there's this new energy that's come, that's, that's appeared, which is like, it would be nice. It would be so nice if I just could wake up earlier in the morning and I allow it to happen. Like, It's so interesting to notice how allowing feels so powerful because I think it's also a version of trust.
Eva: But it's like, I allow myself to wake up early and I allow it to happen easily and effortlessly. And I've been playing around with this all year and more, a year plus. And it is like, so helpful, so nourishing, like the amazing, and this isn't even like, sure, I guess this might be some, some version of like law of attraction.
Eva: I never think about it that way. But there is something to this idea of like, I'm not going to fucking choke hold this thing that I want in my life to happen so badly. It's like, like, I actually think if I allow it to [00:31:00] happen, it comes in and And I'm not blocking it from happening. There's some, this weird way in which when I'm, when there's a choke hold around it, you get it, I'm blocking it from happening.
Eva: So like with these programs that you have, all this creative juice that you've got, and then you want to create all these things and, or maybe you want to have a meditation practice. It's like, I allow it to happen easily and effortlessly.
Kyley: I like leaned back as you were talking about power and allowing and trust because I really felt the impact of that. And I'm curious if listeners are also feeling the themes between our like two and one episode, because power versus force also feels like part of what we're speaking to around, you know, engaging with politics versus like, you know, what I was calling sacred work, embodiment of sacred work. Um, are we railing at politics for embodiment of sacred work? [00:32:00] Meaning that place on some level feels like where I've been for a little while, which I think is how I've gotten to this place that feels a little more integrated, right, is, and I, and I feel this invitation to like, be deeper in what you're speaking to, which is this allowing instead of force and, and There's a choice to be made.
Kyley: And maybe this goes back to our conversation last week about like kind of overwhelm and how you can't do all the things. And so maybe this comes back to the conversation about having to be like intentional about what it is you choose to do. There's this feeling of wanting more than just that like flow, I allow it to happen. That's more about like, Commitment or choice or like, okay, I allow this to happen. And also my actions support like I'm going to then take the actions to support the allowing.
Eva: which is where the power comes in, right? Because it's [00:33:00] not just allowing. I, I don't think.
Kyley: Okay, I have a time like a tangible question for you. Um, can you talk to me about your meditation practice? Because I know that you have one and that my sense is that it's like, it's a pretty regular thing for you. But I actually don't know the like, insides and outs of it. Like, is it the same time? Is it the same day?
Kyley: Is it like, come hell or high water? I meditate every day. Um. Yeah, I think that feels like a kind of discipline that I perceive you engaging in that isn't in my orbit. And I'm curious to know more what that looks like, because maybe there's some glimmers in there.
Eva: Yeah.
Kyley: Answer my how question.
Eva: Okay. Well, you're not going to like this either because I don't have a, I don't have a regular like scheduled thing anymore. And that actually has come
Eva: from, I think me [00:34:00] letting go a little bit and I really love my practice, but that's, I can say that it's because I had a really regimented schedule or a meditation practice for like, eight years, seven or eight years. And so maybe I could talk about that because I think that's what you're more interested in, but it's evolved for me now where I don't have to do that anymore.
Eva: And now it's like my meditation practice, I just do it when I want to. And that feels really nice. And I don't have any story about how I should be doing it any other way or what, because again, I think that comes from experience. It comes from whatever, but it's so nice. It's really nice, actually.
Kyley: Yes, yes, yes. Okay. This is it. Because I think there is this place where, okay, I have the desire, you know, I don't necessarily actually have a desire to meditate every single day, but we're going to use it as an
Kyley: example. Okay. I have a desire to meditate every single day. Uh. And
Eva: Hold on. I'm just having the urge. So what is it that you want [00:35:00] to do every day? Like, do you have some, I think the reason I'm pushing back on this is like, do you have some idea or idealized thing that you think that you want to do every day? Or is there like a real thing in your life that you're like, I want to have a morning routine or like, I want to have structure because, because yeah, I think structure feels really good.
Eva: Like, I don't know. I love structure. Um, so like, I'm curious, because you keep bringing this up, like, so it's got to be something in your life that you are longing for, and I'm curious, like, what that
Kyley: that's a really good question. Okay. Well, I'm going to finish my thought and then transition into there. Cause I think there's this moment where. You have to be really intentional. Like if, if, if you want a thing, you have to be yes to this energy of like allowing and power instead of force. And also like, you have to fucking choose it, right?
Kyley: Like I see this a lot in like business coaching where there's people who want a business. And then don't show up for right there. Like never show up on social media. Now you [00:36:00] can have a successful business without showing up on social media, but there's this energy of like wanting the thing without actually claiming the thing.
Kyley: And it's just like longing. Wouldn't that be nice? It's not really for me. Or like, there's some like disassociative relationship to like longing without like claiming and moving towards. And, and, and so, and to get into this pendulum swing, like, Part of the way that we can, like, really access allowing is also this very joyful, free relationship we have with meditation, to your point, on some level came from being really disciplined for a while.
Eva: Mm hmm.
Kyley: and, and if, if there's an aspect here that's about power, like power is scary, we're fucking afraid to be powerful, right? And so there's this way that if you want a thing, whether it's deeper spiritual experiences or your business to success. [00:37:00] Or to work out more regularly, like all of those things. You can long for them, and then at a certain point you have to claim them.
Kyley: You have to like decide that they're yours, and there's like a commitment there.
Kyley: And so maybe I'm saying the word discipline, but what I actually mean is like choosing and committing.
Kyley: Um,
Eva: embodied place. Yeah. From an
Kyley: but that's, and, and, and, and there's a way which I feel like a lot of things in my life are like, Great, you've been in longing. Now you've got to claim and choose and commit to them. So maybe commitment's a better word than discipline. And the question that I'm asking is how, what does it look like for me to commit to them from this embodied place instead of the forced place?
Kyley: So that's clear.
Eva: embodied place, and I think not from a violent, like,
Kyley: Self critique place. Yes. Yes. Yes. Um, and then I, and [00:38:00] so, so then the question is, what is your point? What is it that I'm longing to commit to? And immediately the answer is like, well, it's myself.
Eva: Mm
Kyley: So in other words, without this clear commitment, I've been abandoning myself in small and big ways by prioritizing things that weren't the authentic priority, doing a little bit of everything. Um, because I think the longing is. Just be deeper in my life and specifically, no, I don't want like a daily meditation practice, but I do want more commitment around an intentional engagement with my spiritual practices.
Eva: hmm.
Kyley: And no, I don't want like [00:39:00] some maniacal exhausting churn of like, gotta be on social media every day. And yes, I do actually want to show up more and like, It's like, I have so much inside of me that's like, if I really tap into it, I sometimes feel like I'm going to fucking explode. and and I want to commit to letting it move out of my insides into the outside. Um, And what's, it's interesting in some ways we're coming right back to exactly the same place we did last week, which is like, then what is it I'm going to pick because I can't do everything. Yeah.
Eva: Mm hmm. Yeah. Well, I was going to ask, and also like, more than I think what stops you from making that commitment. And, but before we even dive deeper in there, I just want to say I think you've done For me, it's been really helpful for, to just, to just decipher that there is a difference, I think, between [00:40:00] discipline and commitment too.
Eva: Um, I do think, I mean, they're, they intersect. I do think discipline can be a very beautiful thing, by the way, when it's without violence, when it's without judgment. Um, but I don't know why I love this idea of commitment too. That feels really nice to me. Like, I know that I like When I'm committed to something, you know, there's like a feeling.
Eva: I think that feels good. That when we're just like, at least when I choose to be, when I'm ready, when I'm ready to be committed to this thing, it's kind of nice. Cause you're just like, instead of having, Oh, Oh, Oh, I know. Sorry. Something that's coming up for me, Pilar, my old coach mentor, who's been on the show.
Eva: Great episode. Highly recommend. It's one of our most listened to episodes, I think. Right. Let's go. Anyway, she uses, she does this thing where she talked about, how have I brought, have I brought this up before the potential palace? Have I mentioned this to you?
Kyley: If so, it's not, it doesn't feel fresh in
Eva: And she talks about the Potentials Palace.
Eva: Like, Potentials Palace is so great. We love hanging out in [00:41:00] there because it's like all these fucking things that we get, like, give all the choices. But commitment is scary because then we have to choose one, which means we have to say no to all the rest of the wonderful, shiny things in the Potentials Palace.
Eva: And, um, Um, but it can also feel really good, I guess is what I was going to say, what made me think of it is like, sometimes it's finally nice to be like, Oh my God, I was trying to do five things and I couldn't fucking do it. But now at least I know what to do. I just need to focus on this one thing. You know, it can be like, almost a sigh of relief, but also like, I love that focus sometimes where it's like, okay, I, I, I know now I've, I've said no to saying yes to one things that means saying no to everything else.
Eva: And that can be terrifying. And it can also be liberating.
Kyley: Yeah. Yes, yes, yes. Like there is inherent loss in commitment, right? Even like I committed to my husband, like he's my person,
Eva: Exactly. Like, I, you know, I choose to date Tom, which means I can't date anybody else unless we're in a poly open [00:42:00] relationship, but we're not right. It's like,
Kyley: Yeah, and, um, the other thing I'm liking this distinction between, I like what you're pointing to, like, discipline and commitment are two separate things and discipline has its own place. And what I'm thinking about is commitment is that energy of like, I keep coming back to this right.
Kyley: Commitment. 'cause I, commitment. Commitment is the energy of like I commit to working out means ideally I do it three times a week. I didn't do it one day. Well, the commitment is there
Kyley: and discipline. I'm thinking there's this particular spiritual practice that's um, I've been like reading about it and curious to like com to commit to.
Kyley: And it's like a two week thing that you kind of do every day. It's like a 90 minute ritual. You do it for two weeks and I've. It's been calling to me and that's requires discipline. It's like, I got to look at my calendar and be like, this is a 90 minute thing every day for two weeks. So when does it fit? Like [00:43:00] how you can't wait till 11 o'clock at night, you're going to fucking fall asleep. Like there's a level of discipline there, but I'm also feeling how like. And commitment still has to come first, because commitment feels really like generous and loving. Like I'm going to do this practice
Eva: Yes,
Kyley: because it's important to me.
Kyley: And then I'm using the tool of discipline to support what I have decided to commit to.
Eva: yeah. I'm actually looking up the definition of commitment because I just think this is so interesting. Um, Yeah, the quality, the quality of being, the quality of being dedicated to a cause and activity. That's just one of them. Anyway, I do look that up because I'm like, yeah, there was something so nice about when it's by choice to be committed, it sounds like to be in relationship with. You know, that's like, and it feels, it does feel loving as you were saying. [00:44:00] And I choose to be in relationship with this thing right now.
Eva: And then this is actually helpful for me too, because I'm like, there's strength in commit, in commitment and committing. And I, it's actually making me ask, like, I feel like I have discipline, like, you know, but I'm like, but what have I, what have I committed to recently? It's a helpful question for me to, a lens for me to look at, like.
Eva: I want to be committed to something and I want, and I mean, and I think for me, the main thing is like my spirit, like, like a spiritual liberation, you know, is what is, and I'm like, but also like that can go deeper. Like, so what would that look like? Yeah.
Kyley: I'm also thinking about how sometimes In order to like materialize something that is important to us, we have to do things that we don't necessarily want. Like you're cozy on the couch, you don't necessarily want to go work out. Like leaning into flow [00:45:00] is allowing yourself to not do things that you don't fucking want to do. And I think that is so vital for those of us who have a tendency to overwork, covering perfectionists and people pleasers like that is so vital. And What I'm also feeling is how commitment gives a really generous way of engaging with sometimes you just do things you don't really want to do. For example, when we record, when I wake up at six in the morning, because I really fucking love this show. Right. And I'm committed to this show. And like, are there some words where I'm like, Oh, it'd be great to
Kyley: sleep
Kyley: another
Eva: You don't want to fucking wake up at 6. Yeah, of course. Yeah.
Kyley: And it is a joyful discipline for me to engage in because this show like means so much to me and this experience is so rich and I and I love you. Um, or like, you know, doing the dishes. There's one night in particular where even I recorded till like midnight my time and then I still had to do the dishes because I promised my husband [00:46:00] I would. That's what she's referring to. And, um, and it was like, technically I don't have to. And also out of commitment to my husband and him having asked me to, you know, like made a request from a place of love, like I wanted to. Um, and so there's something about choice and commitment It also feels like it's giving me more sovereignty to discipline, like, yeah, maybe you don't want to sit down and write this email right now. Totally valid. You don't have to. And there is a deeper commitment to putting your creative work out in the world.
Kyley: And so do you want to choose it anyway? I
Eva: Okay. But a bunch of thoughts and questions are coming in because do you think you, cause you came to this episode because I think you wanted, yeah, you're just in this place of like, there's so much that [00:47:00] you want to do and share and create and give to the world. And you're trying to understand how you can do more of that.
Eva: And so do you feel like you need more commitment and discipline for these things or are you already? Yeah. Cause I, I sense that you're already, or is it that you're not committed enough because you haven't chosen. Because you're, because you're committed to three things right now, and you can only really be committed to one.
Eva: Mm
Kyley: think we can always be more committed to something,
Kyley: right? Like any of these things, they
Kyley: go infinite.
Eva: Yeah. But I think that's the reason I'm asking, because I want to see if, like, is there something where, an area where there, it feels tricky that we can, like,
Kyley: I think specifically, I just feel this calling to like deeper [00:48:00] spiritual it's commitment to power. That's the commitment that I'm feeling called to in my life.
Eva: Yes. Oh, sorry. That's so good. Because I was going to my next question was like, because I actually think it's not just about being like, I mean, I actually think getting clear on what we're committing to that is actually also is going to require refinement because, well, I'll share my piece later, finish what you're gonna say.
Eva: And then, and then I'll add more.
Kyley: so glad you asked me that question because. It feels very clear that it's like the three places that I want to commit to in order are like deeper commitment to my business, like just wanting to like pour so much more out into the world and by extension invite more in. Secondly, deeper commitment to my own spiritual experiences and practices. Um, and then the third piece is a deeper [00:49:00] commitment to like Feeling powerful in my body, right? Like exercising from this place of like, Oh, I just want to feel fucking strong. Right.
Eva: on, sorry, I just cannot, we were clocking when I thought, like, what do I want to commit myself more to? What do I want to commit myself more to? Those are the exact things also that came up for me, which I guess, which I guess maybe isn't that surprising. I can see why for both of us, spiritual, our spiritual peace is there and also for our business.
Eva: But yes, also for me, it is this body. piece. And I think work may be experienced that for different reasons. But anyway, that's just nice to notice and observe. Yeah.
Kyley: down to step bodies. Uh, which is. Probably it's oh, I can feel how that's its own complicated thing because it's like, yeah, buddy, I'll get to you and my body is like, yeah, but actually, maybe if you prioritize me, all those other things would [00:50:00] actually feel way easier because this, like, energy that's going to explode like maybe wants to move, you know, I can feel that there's definitely some story about like, I will get to you body that's in there. Um, uh, the connective tissue between all three of those is This, I feel like life is calling me forward to more deeply claim my place and stand in the center of my own life and be powerful in my iteration of that. And these are the ways that I have deep access to that or that life is inviting me to like lean more deeply into it. Which also attracts me because it's like everything that's in the, my like offer right now, like everything in this, this course that I've like, I'm birthing is like literally also exactly about that. So it is amusing to me, um, [00:51:00] how like thematic, right. We're living what we're teaching just deeper and deeper always. And what's helpful about this reflection is to go back to a question you asked earlier, which is like, what's in the resistance. Now I can see. But all of the places where I'm feeling like scratchy resistance to discipline routine on some level, it's probably some anxiety about like, what's the cost of being powerful.
Eva: looking at those false stories, Interesting. For me, I'm coming at it from a very practical place, like, okay, so what gets in the way of me? Because it's interesting. I do agree with what you're saying, because I do think each of us. Okay, I'll again, speak for myself. I think I have a, a, a, um, a commitment to all three of these things that we've named already to my business, to my spiritual practice, especially my spiritual, I think I'm a spiritual partner, but it's more like my liberation, you know, it's like going all the way and then also health, like essentially [00:52:00] is another big piece, but we can always be more committed.
Eva: And I've also been feeling like it might be time for that. maybe even more my business. My business is where I'm the most quote unquote guilty of being like super loosey goosey. It's like, I, I think maybe you're speaking to like, I want it, but there is some, maybe not like a full claiming of two. And I like vacillate kind of back and forth.
Eva: And I'm just wondering, I'm just asking myself, like, what gets in the way of like, like, what would full commitment look like to me? First, that's like an interesting question. What does full commitment look like, look like to me? And then going back to our conversation from last week, but also, and then editing that so that it feels realistic instead of some ridiculous, like, you know, thing that I create for myself, where then I fail.
Eva: And then what gets in the way of that?
Kyley: I think it makes sense that business is the place where you're most [00:53:00] likely to be kind of what you call loosey goosey. Because it's also probably the place where you are most likely to feel like, activated by the like, well, there's all these rules and you've got to do it this way and blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, like you've, you've You because what's coming to my mind personally is that I think my commitment has been to love Like I have a I have been in commitment to a deeply loving relationship with my body for a long time Which is really different than having a commitment to a powerful relationship with my body And similarly, like I have had a deep commitment to like a loving relationship, which has a lot of permission and spaciousness around and confidence and trust around business and, um, uh, spiritual practices. And I think for me, probably in part because of my professional background and just my own personal makeup, I think it's easier for me than for some people for that to happen. Like [00:54:00] love centered business relationship to just be pretty powerful. Like it's, it's, it's, it's not, it's not a, it's not as stretchy for me as it is for other people. Um, I think what I'm intrigued by is this shift that I'm feeling and that I'm hearing reflected in you of like, okay, you've been in this deeply loving place and your commitment has been to love in these areas. And what does it look like to, from that place of love, like layer in power in the commitment to business, spiritual, and, um, body. And I wonder if that framing opens anything up for you or not.
Eva: So I am reminded of another Tom question, which has been very helpful for me. It's like a prompt that he'll give sometimes that's like, you say the [00:55:00] thing that you're ready for. Just like, I am ready in the, my, in this situation, I'll just say, I'm ready to commit fully.
Eva: to my business and then saying that out loud and then notice any resistance that comes up, which is so helpful, right? It's such a good prompt because it's showing you where you're not yet ready. Like the point is to actually, if you have no resistance at all, then you're fucking ready. But if you're, if you have resistance, it's because there's something then you're not completely ready.
Eva: And it was really interesting as I just kind of did that in my mind. Okay. So I'm, I'm ready to commit to my business fully. And what just came up for me is, um, it's too hard and I'll be tired. Isn't that interesting?
Kyley: Yeah.
Eva: Yeah. That didn't actually answer your question. Sorry, because I think I was having my own little trip here, but.
Kyley: I liked, I liked your trip a lot more. [00:56:00] I, um, felt in doing that, my, that same thing myself, I just felt my whole heart clench out. Um, I don't have a, I don't have words for it yet, but, um, I think it feels like a real, it feels like, like grief and some real, um, anguish that that path only leads to future grief. And I, I can feel, I can feel the girl's recent bout with heartbreak, right, right there at that.
Eva: Yeah. Well, I think it's, it's such a good, I wouldn't say it's like a start. I mean, no, it doesn't feel like a start. It feels like more of a middle, but, but listeners like, Tuck that away in your pocket because it's super helpful. It's something I come back to all the time. And I keep referring to this guy named Tom.
Eva: I forget we haven't aired the episode yet. Kyley and I spill the tea on my new, well, it's not new. We've [00:57:00] been dating for like a year and a half now. Finally recorded an episode about it. And we're going to air it soon. And I'm really excited. Excited and also nervous. But anyway, that's who I keep referring to anyway.
Eva: Um, and that's coming out soon. So keep your eyes out for that if you want, you want the hot goss, but anyway, um, I'm ready to blank. I'm ready to commit to my business fully. And I'm just noticing what, um, resistance comes up and then, Oh, I think, I think it was helpful for me though, is I think I do have ways to, um, question and investigate those, just those two things.
Eva: It's going to take, what does I say? Take too much work and I'm going to be tired. Um, but I, but the tired pieces I've been working on for a long time, man. And I feel like there's still more I'm doing.
Kyley: And light bulb moment with this framework that we're kind of shifting out, shifting, settling into here, I'm committing to, [00:58:00] let's say business, I'm committing to my business. I'm committing to being powerful in my business. And then I say it and I feel my heart be like, Oh, I really, really hurt. Um, this is actually where like a really loving relationship to discipline shows up, right?
Kyley: Because without discipline. I think our response often is to then like, okay, well, let me retreat and let me tend to my heart. And I don't think that's wrong. And I think there's other moments where it's like, do it scared,
Kyley: but like a really loving, do it scared, right? Cause some of this, we didn't really talk about nervous system, but some of this is also about like a lot of the underpinning here, at least for me, is definitely some nervous system capacity stuff.
Kyley: So it's like, okay, I am ready to fully commit to being powerful in my business in a brand new way. I'm going to imagine what that discipline or structure or routine might look like, might involve and I'm going to commit to like [00:59:00] honoring that discipline, even though I'm scared, just like holding my heart, holding the, like sitting with that clenched fear and just taking it one step at a time to show that part of me, it's okay.
Eva: Yes. Okay. Okay. This is so interesting to me because I think there's different ways that we can go, that we can tend to this. I think it's subjective depending on what you need in that moment. And I think that takes a little, just a little bit of self awareness, but I think what, what you're pointing out is like different methodologies of, um, responding to noticing your limitations.
Eva: So you already brought up a really good one. Sometimes it's tending to your heart and being like, okay, baby girl, I see you. I think that, I see that you think it's going to be scary and hard and let me, whatever, give you the love and care that you need. And sometimes that's what you need to actually then move forward.
Eva: And then there's the whole [01:00:00] like doing it scared, which is also like, sometimes you just fucking really just need to, but do it and see that you're safe. And then the third piece is like, for me, my one of my practices is to really question, like, through the work essentially. But even if you don't know the work, you can just really do your own, run it through your own system to investigate if something is true for you or not.
Eva: Is it going to be hard? Is it, is it actually going to be hard? Am I actually going to be tired? Like just to investigate. And I have found that that's another helpful way is that because what happens is once I investigate and I, through clear investigation actually see that actually that may not actually be true, then it just drops away and then I don't even have anything that I need to resist against anymore.
Eva: And that's another helpful way to go about this because then I don't have to tend to my heart. I also don't need to do it scared because there's nothing like it just drops away. It's the absence of something. And I do believe [01:01:00] actually that when there's the absence of something as well, there's more flow than like, that's oftentimes actually like what I'm going for is, it's not like I need to step up more.
Eva: I just need to let go of something. And then it's like, boom, it just happens effortlessly. Oh,
Kyley: interesting as I've been in this kind of like, I don't know, deeper call to power is, um, I've watched. For me, a little sneaky perfectionism that's been lurking, that's like, you know what? We could just drop beneath this and resolve this one too. Oh, you know what? We could just drop beneath this one and it actually delays. It's like, well, we'll totally get to that action. Absolutely. We're going to do all of that do and we're going to show up a thousand percent, but you know what? Look, we just found this other fear that we could tend to or that we could [01:02:00] question or that, right?
Kyley: And so. I've been watching how the very spiritual practices that I fucking love and have saved me time and time again, also become this kind of enabling, you know, just, just one more round. One more round.
Eva: because you could tend to your sweet little heart for Forever. And that's like, again, that's beautiful. There's nothing wrong with it. But I do think what you're pointing to is really good. Is that like, um, well, I don't even see the, I don't know. It's not that it's not about right or wrong, but is it like, Is it actually helpful or not helpful?
Eva: It's just, it's just taking another thing and distorting it. It's taking it and using it as, like you said, as a distraction. And I think it just takes what you're speaking to is really awesome. Cause I think it's taking a high level of awareness and, um, experience to be like, Oh, wait, that thing that I always rely on tending to my heart or my inner child and being, you know, speaking to my fear, [01:03:00] wait, what if that all of a sudden is becoming actually, um, a handicap in this moment?
Eva: And then in the next moment, it'll change. But in this moment, in this situation, that is like really helpful to see.
Kyley: And I think one of, I think one way to navigate that too, that I've been doing is, is, is desire, which is interesting. We haven't really talked about desire here, but I think it's connected to all of this and it's been like, girl, what do you want? Right. So I have this moment of like, okay, I'm like, said I was going to do the thing. All of a sudden I've got this resistance. I can feel my heart clenched and I have the choice of like, kind of leaning back to tend to it. Or, or kind of leaning in and doing it, like, doing it, it makes me think of the line Tom says about let it burn, right? Of like, leaning in, even in the discomfort, um, and. I think the way to navigate that is like, what's the truest desire? Is the like, is [01:04:00] the true desire for like relief and respite and leaning back? Or is the true desire this kind of hunger for like, it's fucking time, let's go. Um, and because you have, what's happening is like, you actually have both, both desires in that moment. You just, again, to your point of pick and like prioritize And something's got to, it's like, you've got to just pick which one of those desires is bigger in that moment.
Eva: Yeah, and I, yeah, I think that's sometimes about just going into the body. I mean, like, and listening and being like, okay, what is it that I really need, want now? And then I'm just going to be, you know, a flippant little, um, unhelpful, bring some unhelpful, flippant chaos energy into this. And part of me is also like, this is all really awesome.
Eva: And I think it's actually all really spot on and accurate and helpful. I also want to be like, but I'll do at the day, I can't even say it fucking matters because we're not the doer. And I don't actually, I'm [01:05:00] doing any of this. It's like consciousness is going to choose for me anyway, whatever direction it wants to go in.
Eva: And I don't, there's a way in which that's like, yeah. You know, like giving up responsibility, and there's a way in which I think that's also true. It's like, um, I've been thinking about that so much here in my time in Taiwan, being like, I'm here. And I'm going through this difficult situation and I'm gonna fucking learn the lessons I'm gonna learn the thing which is like I just turn it into this thing that I analyze so much which I feel like we're Doing a little bit here of like how do I analyze and tune in and so then I can do the work that I need to Do and I'm in Taiwan like how do I?
Eva: Turn the suffering into spiritual growth and and I can just be like I can just see spirit laughing and being like girl You're gonna learn the lesson no matter fucking what you don't have to do anything You're not even in control like you can lay on the couch all day and that'll be me You will do 10 hours of work a spiritual meditation and that'll be me like just let go [01:06:00] I can't help but come back to the thought of just like letting go to but it is but But it is very much a dance of both because we do have free will, questionable, but yes, do we have free will?
Eva: And then, you know, it's, it's, and also we're not the doer and
Kyley: Well,
Kyley: and, and letting go, I think we misunderstand as waiting, right? And so it's like, yeah, your spirit is constantly like, it's so cute that you're like thinking all the time. Like you think that fucking matters. Like, okay, cool. Cool. And. letting go. And again, it's like, always, always, always, always, always. I feel like what it comes back to is like, Oh, just fucking whenever you're ready, you can let go. And I think to the point of power, because I think surrender and power are, we think that they're, they're the same fucking thing. We think they're somehow opposites. They are the exact same thing [01:07:00] because we internalize surrender, surrender, and letting go as like, okay, well now I'll just wait as opposed to like, Let go, and then you're free to fucking pick whatever you want to pick.
Kyley: And if you really surrender, then, then there is no difference between laying on the couch and writing a next great American novel. So then just pick which one seems more fun and just keep picking over and over again.
Eva: moment.
Kyley: Yeah.
Eva: Yeah.
Eva: Yep.
Eva: What you're speaking to is reminding me of experience I had in Ayahuasca, where I, where she was like talking to me and she was like, yes, don't you see, like, I'm all of it. Like I'm all of it. So in your example, she's like, I'm the bridge.
Eva: I'm the person, like, I'm you walking across the bridge. I'm God meeting you at the bridge. And then I'm also your anger. It's like, and also I'm like the, the molecules in your voice that speak your anger. And then [01:08:00] I'm also the part in your ear that hears anger. And then I'm also like the space that holds anger.
Eva: And she was just like, and she kept coming and laughing and giggling. Like, don't you see? Like, I'm all of it. Like, there's no fucking separation. And it's all for you. Like all of this is for you. It's all conspiring for you. The anger, the confusion, the questions, that Shenzhen shows up in like, it's just, it's just like none of it is separate.
Eva: It's the program, it's the air, it's the thought. I had like a, I was having like a, a stressful thought during my ayahuasca ceremony. And then I had a beautiful thought coming in to de stress me. And she's like, but don't you see, I'm both, I'm the stressful thought and the, and the happy thought, and it's all here for you.
Eva: No separation. And I was like, like, so, it was so beautiful. And also so playful, like such a little, not a trickster even, she just felt like a really sweet little, I don't know, [01:09:00] cute fairy in that moment. Being like, hee hee hee hee hee.
Kyley: giving me something big. I'm small. I can feel as you're telling that story probably because Ayahuasca is like, I'm here in the molecules you're speaking. I just felt something soften in my body where I have been holding conflict As a portal to love, like tension as a answer to relief, which is generous. And also actually still fucking duality.
Eva: What do you mean by holding tension as,
Kyley: I've, I've, I've been holding this belief that, um, resentment is your portal to gratitude. Which is really generous. And [01:10:00] as a result, I often have like a very loving relationship with these like kind of quote unquote, uncomfortable emotions
Kyley: that show up.
Eva: Or like grief is, is like a portal to love and suffering as a portal to freedom, like that kind of thing. Yeah, like,
Kyley: as you were speaking, I like got hit with like, no, no, no. That's just the surface layer. Like it's, it actually is all me in a way that is like, feels very, plant medicine y, wow, like, like it's the same fucking.
Eva: thing. It's the same fucking thing, dude. It is the same fucking thing. It's just concepts, concepts that create separation, like that we think like, and language does that. Cause once you put language on something, then it becomes a concept. Then it becomes, like you said, duality. And I [01:11:00] actually think what we're speaking to right now is non duality.
Kyley: Oh my God. Eva, Eva, Eva.
Eva: Yes, yes, yes, yes, yes.
Kyley: uh,
Eva: I know. Brain
Kyley: I
Eva: blah
Kyley: have, I have been, I have been doing the productive thing. Oh my God. I've been making my fucking grief productive.
Eva: Wait, tell me more. Tell us more. Kyley Caldwell
Kyley: I have been watching. The anger and the grief. And listeners, if you listened last year, I got a lot of it, okay? Got a good ol dose of it. I've been watching it, and loving it, and like, not to, you know, I'm pretty fucking proud of how I, like, you know, rose to the occasion,[01:12:00]
Eva: Mm-Hmm.
Kyley: and met myself in the depths of my hurt. And, I have been waiting for all of it. I mean, my whole life's worth of, like, trauma, grief, whatever. essentially make itself useful by transforming into the thing I really want. I've been playing a, like, productivity game with my fucking anger and grief and resentment. Like, oh, if I just do it right, they'll turn into the thing I really want. Which is actually just asking them to be other than they fucking are. Does it make sense what I'm saying?
Eva: Wait. Just this last part. Asking. Asking what?
Kyley: I've been like holding my breath, waiting for grief to be done, turning itself into love, to experience some kind of like, uh, arrival. [01:13:00] And so it's this productivity thing where like, Oh, like grief sucks. Anger sucks for them, even as I have lots of generous loving things. Right. But underneath that, underneath that, what I'm seeing is like, and also I have been asking them to be productive.
Kyley: I have basically been asking grief to earn its keep by turning itself into love. I've been asking
Eva: Mm.
Kyley: to make it to like, make itself useful by materializing, rematerializing as gratitude.
Eva: As opposed to, you mean just letting it. Be perhaps letting it be what it is when letting it be there without needing it to turn into the opposite.
Kyley: And,
Kyley: just, yeah,
Eva: and, and I, I'm assuming you're getting there. And what I'm hearing you say, it's like, yeah, like, we do that when we assume that they're separate and they're opposites and that they're, you know,
Kyley: And I've been like, literally I can feel just funny. Cause before everything blew up, listen, I kept talking about this, [01:14:00] holding up, I kept talking about this, holding my breath energy with her, but like, I can feel this holding my breath and I have, it's shown up again. Recently, I'm like, where, where is that holding my, what, what is that?
Kyley: Where is it? It's not even necessarily like a physical sensation. Like it doesn't necessarily mean like I'm actually holding my breath, but I feel that sensation and it's this, it's like this waiting. It's like waiting to materialize into like, Oh, and now it's all good and light. I think, I think that's actually been me. Queen of shadows,
Eva: Wow. Wow.
Kyley: as opposed to like. There's no difference, so there's nowhere to go.
Eva: And it doesn't have to be productive.
Kyley: and so there's no say, like, what the fuck is productive? Like, what is that,
Kyley: what is that
Eva: Exactly. What is even that? Like there's no concept of that, which I actually think is like closer to the [01:15:00] truth, like closer to the truth of, of how it all ties into our conversation about. Discipline and flow and productivity is actually, it's all connected somehow, this idea of like,
Eva: we can just be.
Kyley: Well, and I'm experiencing now how, like, surrender is also surrendering to how they're not fucking different, like, they're not fucking different. So where are you trying to go? I can, like, really feel Spirit right now, like, yeah,
Eva: Yeah, there's nowhere, there's nowhere to go. You're
Kyley: trying to go? Where are you trying to go? And that brings us back to the anger. That brings us back to the anger. Okay, thank you, everybody. Everybody, round of applause. Spirit, round of applause. Because Spirit is like, people go, where are you trying to go? And that's when I'm angry, because I'm like, not [01:16:00] here. The answer of where I'm trying to go is not here.
Kyley: I don't like it here. This part of me that's angry, that's what she's saying. She's like, I don't know where, but not here. And Spirit's like, well, there's nowhere else to go, so it's
Eva: But to, not that it has to be like an Not that I have to tie it into a nice happy ending bow, but, but I do think that that sounds like a happy ending in that, because I think some people might interpret that and be like, well, that sucks. And you're just where you don't want to be. But it's actually, no, it's more like, um, I don't know how would, um,
Kyley: I'm laughing with, like, genuine joy because I have so much relief that I'm, like, Oh, that's all you're angry about? Like, you're just angry because you don't want to be where you, okay, of course, and now I'm also, like, Um, and now I'm seeing the me who is mother and, like, yeah, I get it, like, with my kids, I'm, like, I get it, you don't want to go to school today, I understand. [01:17:00] It is hard sometimes to have to do things that you don't want to do. Let me give you like, like, we're gonna sit here it's time to go to school. You know, they're like, there's that like, just
Eva: yeah,
Kyley: like, Oh, that's it. That's why you're mad. Of course you're mad. Yeah. Here, you want to break some shit? Like I literally can see her.
Kyley: She's like in this like kind of like cube and she's like very trapped. And I'm just like, would you like to break things? Like I'm going to give you some like nice, like antique vases. Like would you like really priceless things to break? Like have at it. Like, of
Kyley: course. It's Because, yeah, I'm kind of like, oh, this feels fun. You can just be mad. Okay,
Kyley: uh, yeah. So yeah, no, it feels nervous. Like, which I think is the point. There's actually joy. It's not just relief. There is relief, but there's also joy in there's nowhere else to go.
Eva: Or yeah, I mean, I don't know if this is too much of a stretch, but like actually where you are is actually great. Like where you, cause I think, [01:18:00] yeah.
Kyley: Yes. And yes, yes, yes, yes. It is great. And it's great because I'm experiencing right now. It's like, it's great because actually it's fun to be angry because I'm angry.
Eva: To be where
Kyley: it's a great place to be because it's actually the only place I fucking exist. SideQuest. SideQuest
Eva: All right,Kyleye, my brain is going wong, wong, wong, because we've been talking for a minute. It's gotten kind of loopy. My favorite kind of conversations, but I think it's time to wrap it up and go to Joy. What do you think?
Kyley: Yes, yes, yes.
Eva: Wait, before we do that, any sort of like, I don't know, closing summary of conversation we just had?
Eva: I don't know if I'm putting you on the spot, but the conversation was about like, I This is part two of like discipline and overwhelm. And is there anything here that you think um, is going to support, [01:19:00] has supported you in answering your initial investigation?
Kyley: Yes. has perhaps surprised me and also feels so clear is choice is the thing at the center of all of this, right? Getting out of overwhelm, commitment, really powerfully engaging with discipline, like all of these asking me to make choices. Yes. And. In that way, the question is, what do I want? What do I want? What is the greater desire? Am I living in a, am I living in integrity with that desire? And if not, how do I, like, is there something that I, is there something to shift? Um, which is something that wants to shift, um, which is, Very intriguing and perhaps surprising. Cause I feel like discipline and desire, they seem like they want to be opposites, right? Like [01:20:00] desire is indulgence and chocolate and like, right.
Eva: booze and cocaine and sex. Yes.
Kyley: discipline is like the stoic monk who's shaved their head and you know, only eats broth and sleeps two hours a day.
Kyley: Right. And like, interestingly, the answer for me. Discipline is a superpower tool, bring your desire to like be living your desires. So what's your desire? What are you committing to? And then discipline gets, gets, my question can be like, how, how, how, but what's actually coming in? It's like, and then discipline is just the, how you just pick, it doesn't matter what the discipline is. You just pick in a way that syncs up with your commitment and desire until it doesn't. And then you reevaluate. That's discipline.
Eva: Yes. Yeah. And I think [01:21:00] Yes. And yeah, I thought that was an amazing summary, actually. Like you did a really good job considering how windy that conversation was. But, and just as a
Kyley: This is what my mad scientist, it's the only shit she categorizes, so
Eva: the
Kyley: on, she's on
Eva: on it. Um, and, and I think like some piece about not doing self condemnation or violence and like, and love and is, is important piece of that too, of the discipline of being like, Hey, so what is it that you're committing to?
Eva: Noticing and any, because I think that's just like the trick. Anytime we ask ourselves these questions, it's self condemnation and self attack comes in so quickly sometimes, like really fast and just, um, I think it's a practice in actually loving ourselves through the whole thing and being really, really kind.
Eva: Yeah, and I think you said something very early on the conversation that I just want to [01:22:00] point to really quick So we didn't give it as much time as I want to is like and then if you don't do it that day Great, do it another day. You know, it doesn't have to be this like really rigid it When it's from power, it doesn't feel rigid.
Eva: I don't think and if you're noticing rigidity That's where Some sort of violent energy comes in and that's just not gonna That's never really going to motivate you long term. Yeah. Yeah. Okay, let's go to Joy. What's bringing you, Joy? This week, this day, this phase of your life.
Kyley: I gotta look something up, hold on,
Eva: Okay, I'm gonna think about my joy.,
Kyley: I just finished the most delightful book and I am a reader. I love reading and it's been a really long time since I've been able to, I haven't just haven't found a book that I could just couldn't go to sleep over. You know, those [01:23:00] kinds of books that are just like, Ooh, I just can't wait to see what happens next. And I just finished it. I stayed up till like one 30 in the morning and it was called, I highly recommend it's called sorcery and small magics. It's by this woman. Um, Miga, M A I G A Ducey. It's their first novel. Um, uh, their pronouns are she, she, they. So this person who wrote this book, it was so fun. It's like a cozy fantasy world of magic. the premise involves, um, unintentional curse that like smashes these two people together that do not want to be smashed together. And there was something about the, like, dynamic of these two characters and, you know, The charm of the world that she built that was just [01:24:00] pulled me in. It's like just drinking the perfect cup of tea kind of vibes. And now I'm devastated and heartbroken because apparently I found this book weeks after it was published. And I now have to wait at least a year until I get to read the
Eva: Oh no, that's the worst. Yeah, when you like can't
Kyley: This is the pain of being an early adopter.
Eva: Yes, exactly. It's like, uh, but I'm happy for you because it's so nice when we find that book that we just lose ourselves in. So thank you for the rec. I'm always looking for a good
Kyley: I was, I've been longing. I just been longing to lose myself in a book and I kept trying and
Eva: what's the vibe? Is it like fun though? Is it, is
Kyley: fun. It's fun. It's cozy. Uh, it's queer. It's Um, it's like just the right amount of fantastical. The main character is also like a, uh, uh, very kind of irreverent, chaotic bard type, which I always, I have such a soft spot for the irreverent, chaotic bard figure. [01:25:00] Um, I would essentially always read a book where that's one of the primary characters, if I could. Um, so I'll take your Rex. Um, but yeah, if you just want like, If you want to feel like you're drinking a perfect cup of tea that also makes you laugh, like, please check it out.
Eva: Awesome. Okay.
Kyley: Oh, you?
Eva: I feel like this is the first time maybe I'm sharing an idea that's bringing me joy rather than like a, you know, an experience or a thing, but I've been working on writing this email. You know what it says?
Eva: It's this joy of like letting being creative, I think. Um, and just giving myself permission to work on whatever fuels. Um, like I feel inspired by and, and it took me to this email that I didn't know what this was going to look like, but what it became, I'm still working on it. It's like, whole recap of my last fucking two years.
Eva: And I, I finally have had the space [01:26:00] this, these past 10 days or so after, you know, traveling, because there's been a lot going on in my life where I was like, I just want to like do an assessment of like, what's been going on for, because a lot of changes happened. And I wrote down everything from two years ago was starting from with my breakup from Adam, all the way till now.
Eva: And like, So much fucking shit has happened. And I would actually love to do an episode maybe on that one day. Um, anyway, listeners who've been listening to my podcast know really what I'm talking about. But anyway, I think the joy is like self recognition, maybe. It's like, I haven't even had time to like, process a lot of it or breathe in some ways to say like, Oh, I was living in Portland and then I went to an airstream and then I came to Taiwan and then I moved to the jungle and then I like traveled.
Eva: It was just, it's just, it's just been [01:27:00] nuts. And I'm like, wow, I did all of this. And it's been a crazy adventure. Of course, I've known, I talked a lot about it on the podcast and alluded to it, but there was something very gratifying about. It was a different kind of acknowledgement that I think I haven't had room for.
Eva: Um, and maybe a sense of patting myself on the back a little bit to be like, you've carried it all pretty well. So anyway, more to come on that, I suppose, but I just feel like I've been living an insane life for the past two years.
Kyley: Yeah.
Eva: And you've been here every step of the way holding
Kyley: I just keep forgetting about the whole Airstream trailer chapter. Like, my brain just, like, skips over. Like, it already seems like so much adventuring, and it's like, Oh, yeah, also,
Kyley: you lived in Texas for nine
Kyley: months.
Eva: [01:28:00] Yeah. So bizarre. And then, yeah. Anyway, that's just, that's been taking up a lot of my time these past couple of days, just the reflection piece. So that's why it's alive. All right, friends, thank you so much for joining us on this journey. And again, we always love hearing from you. If there's anything that we said that resonated with you, anything you disagree with any, any of it, we want to, we love just to converse.
Eva: So hit us up on Instagram, please like, subscribe, write a review on Apple podcasts if you haven't gotten a fresh review in so long. So, um, if it's. I mean, only write it if it's a five star review, duh, but
Kyley: or if you're giving us a one star review and complaining that we swear too much because that is
Kyley: my favorite.
Eva: yeah, Um, we love you.