Kyley and Eva are BACK, and we’re kicking off the year with a juicy one. Kyley shares about some big life changes and how riding the emotional waves has held her. And Eva navigates the complexity of family, health, and responsibility during her stay in Taiwan.
Kyley and Eva are BACK, and we’re kicking off the year with a juicy one. Kyley shares about some big life changes and how riding the emotional waves has held her. And Eva navigates the complexity of family, health, and responsibility during her stay in Taiwan.
SURRENDER MAGICK
https://www.ravenandmerope.com/surrender-magic - Doors close 2/2
Retreat information - https://www.theworkwithtom.com/9-16-march-brazil.html
Eva's instagram: @iamevaliao
Book a discovery call with Eva
Kyley's Instagram: @kyleycaldwell
Kyley's free mini-course
Kyley: [00:00:00] Hi, it's Kyley.
Eva: And it's Eva! 24! 2024 edition! Here we go! Giddy up, we're ready to ride! Strapped in, baby.
Kyley: I love you. Welcome back, everybody.
Eva: Yes, we have a nice long break, the one that was particularly long because life has been Bonkers bananas, y'all. And we are really looking forward to being back here to share a little bit about what that's looking like [00:01:00] with
Kyley: All of the things that we kept meeting and then having to just have friend chat and not record. So we're finally We're finally able to, uh, record and be with you all, and we've missed you. So,
Eva: hmm.
Kyley: we got a good juicy one for you today.
Eva: Yeah, actually so much to discuss. Um, but before that, how about some quick biznass?
Kyley: Yeah, what do you got going on, my love?
Eva: Well, oh, well, this will all tie into the conversation that we're going to have today. I don't know if we're going to talk about Brazil today, but the point is tiptoed around this fact that I'm going to be in Brazil in March. I am at full capacity at this moment, but come March, if you want to work with me one on one, you can get on the wait list.
You get a nice little discount with the wait list if you send that to me. And then, uh, I would love to work with you one on one.
Kyley: Yeah,
Eva: That's the plug.
Kyley: Eva's jungle Brazil magic,
Eva: Yeah.[00:02:00]
Kyley: just, you
Eva: More, more on that in a bit.
Kyley: yeah, yeah, yeah. Um, and as I will share soon, uh, I've been through, I've been going through an initiation, y'all I have been. Sucked much, much, much deeper into my own medicine and magic. And what to answer our kind of our question, like what's life teaching you?
Like life has to teaching me surrender, surrender, surrender, surrender in this really powerful way, which I want to share today on the episode. And out of that has born, um, this group container that I'm offering and I'm so fucking pumped for it. So it's called surrender magic into the void. It's six weeks long.
Uh, it's pay what you can. So you can pay me 5. You can pay me 500. Uh, I. I'm interested in making, uh, I'm interested in bringing together a community of people who want to commit to letting the fuck go and [00:03:00] opening up to being present in their lives. Um, and so if that resonates with you, or if this topic that we're going to talk about today resonates with you, or if you've ever wanted to work with me, like pay me 5 and come be in Surrender Magic because, um.
It's very alive and I am just, um, yeah, I kind of can't wait for it.
Eva: Yeah. I mean, I'm already signed up. I think it's going to be juicy as fuck. And I think we're going to really experience surrender in a deeper way than we even think we're capable of at this moment. So yeah, let's jump into maybe, um, how that's showing up in.
Kyley: Yeah, well, as I told you, because when you and I were talking about what to record today and I was like, I think I just really keep all I want to talk about is Surrender. And, uh, we realized we've made a couple of episodes on this topic and I [00:04:00] immediately felt like laughing. So that's cute that I thought I knew what Surrender was.
And as I say that I can feel how much it's cute that I think I know what Surrender is now. Right? Like, because that's. The
Eva: always goes deeper. It goes, it's infinite. And it's also the whole goddamn game and it's scary and it's beautiful. I think it's the answer to everything.
Kyley: that is, that is like all I keep coming back to is like, uh, there is nothing else to do. The only thing that exists or that is, or the only way that we can be like, everything else is like, I don't know. A performance is just surrender.
Eva: So why don't we talk about how that's showing up in our lives? Do you want to go first? Who would you
Kyley: I can, I can go first. Um, so if you are in my inner circle, or if you perhaps follow me and listen, so non Facebook you or Instagram, you might know that, uh, at the end of November, my beloved [00:05:00] Liz realized that she is not a coach anymore. We opened up a portal and she walked through and on the other side, she needed to not do this work, work and, um, uh,
Eva: gonna, I'm gonna cut you off right there and just, can you, for people who might be new, can you explain what you, who, who Beloved Liz is?
Kyley: yes, yes, uh, that was exactly what I was going to say next, yeah, if you, if you don't know, um, Liz and I have had The most intense friendship I've ever had with another human. Um, and we, from the moment we met, we're just slinging lightning and making really fucking big magic and really activating like all of our work with our clients and together was just this like kind of ongoing activation of, um, the magic of being alive. I don't know how it's hard to describe. Um. And, um, and we had really, really, really big plans, um, of, you [00:06:00] know, we'd run a couple group programs together. We'd run some retreats together and we talked, you know, we met multiple times a week. We talked daily about kind of like the vision of what we were building.
And so this was a really abrupt and huge change, um, on the eve of, you know, we were about to launch a group program. And, uh, and it really fucked me.
Eva: Chorus on.
Kyley: that's the answer. A true answer is like this, uh, this shift came out of left field and, uh, and it. Um, gave me some serious whiplash and, um, and so I've been in, I've been moving through since late November.
Now it's mid January when recording, um, you know, I thought I had a plan, right? And the universe was [00:07:00] like, that's very cute. and, um, in total transparency, it's been really devastating. Like the, the, the loss of not just the, you know, the idea of security, right. Not just the loss of the plan, but the loss of the, you know, the, the, I have already had my own business, right? I like, it's fun to have a partner. There's a reason there's two of us on this podcast, right?
It's fun to have a pal and doing this shit. Um, and, um, and I also had to, and I've also watched, there were a lot of things that I thought that I was, um. There are a lot of things that I thought were us together that I have been in the process of realizing get to be me. Um, but, um, anyway, well, we can walk, we can talk through more of this as we keep talking about surrender, but, um, but it has been a really huge loss of identity and plan and vision [00:08:00] and, um, And every single day I have woken up and my intention is like, okay, how do I let go?
Okay. This like giant, um, experience is showing up and, um, this thing has, this thing, this thing has like, Would have been the rug's been pulled out from underneath me and I'm falling. And so how do I commit to the fucking fall that has really been my intention almost every single day before I feed hit the floor.
It's like, how can I just commit to falling? Um, because it was immediately clear, like something that's something that feels this big. We all know those moments where something shifts in our life and it feels so huge. And there's a desire. I think there's an inclination or there can be an inclination to like fix it.
To tidy it up to like, make it not hurt. Right. And, um, and said my intention every single day has been like, okay, [00:09:00] well, if the house is on fire, let's just fucking burn it to the ground because we're already here. Let's get our mileage out of this. Um, let's let this, let's let this initiation be as intense as possible.
As possible because I don't know, it already hurts, so let's just like, just,
Eva: well that and also I think there's wisdom in this, you know, there's a part of you that already knows that no other option. Like, what are you going to do? I mean, basically, let's just give examples. What, what I think you like, I want, I want to make this, you know, tangible for folks who are listening as well.
It's like, it's like you could lose your job or, you know, get a divorce or face death of. Any kind. And it's like, you can be like, okay, well let's, let me be the planner and like, get my, like, Google docs out and try and like apply for that new job and whatever, do what I need to do to like. Get out, you know, [00:10:00] make this divorce more palatable and like, there's nothing wrong with that.
I think there's a time and a place for that. And also that's how some people cope with grief, which is also all good. Cause there's no right way to cope with grief. But at some point, like you're gonna have to let go if you're gonna make it out alive. So you just went straight to it. Like, no pussy fun around for you, you're
Kyley: no, I mean, because I think when, you know, when, when life. You know, I, I called moments Ragnarok, right, from like Norse mythology, the death that is life. Um, and when, when things, because in Norse mythology, the end of the world is the beginning of the world. It's a cycle instead of a line. Um, and, um, and when, Ragnarok happens, like it's an invitation, it's like whatever is dying is going to birth you into what [00:11:00] you actually want, but we have to let it change us.
And I think when we are afraid of the pain or when we are, um, afraid of letting go, or if we don't actually know how to let go, because how do we don't, it's not like a thing most of us actually know how to do, um. Then we resist being changed. We resist being changed by the experience and, and then we just don't get the same.
Eva: Oh, you missed the whole thing. You miss out on like the whole alchemical experience, which is meant for you.
Kyley: Also, I think it takes long. I think the pain lasts longer. I think if you just like dive fucking head first, and if you're just like, okay, like I surrender to these waves of grief or anger or like whatever pain is showing up, it's for me, let's go in. I think the whole process [00:12:00] is more intense and way fucking shorter.
Eva: yeah. So that's the thing about like this, this, you know, one thing that I'm cognizant of, I think, you know, in the spiritual work is that there are no shortcuts, but if there were a shortcut, this. It's not that it's a shortcut because you're actually doing the opposite of what a shortcut does, which is like, you're not bypassing anything, but it's like the most efficient use of all of your sources, like
Kyley: That's really funny because I actually do think this is a shortcut. I do actually believe in shortcuts and I do think the shortcut is to dive headfirst into the wave.
Eva: that's so funny. I can feel my
Kyley: I mean basically I think surrender is the shortcut which is, so you're, I mean, you're, we're both right because surrender is the only thing that does, like, it's the only thing that's real and it's just us either surrendering or resisting surrender.
But I do think like, I do think that headfirst into the wave is, uh, it's the shortcut.
Eva: well, I think this is just semantics because to me, I'm like, I'm like. A shortcut to me means like [00:13:00] you, because to me, this is just the most direct path. And so to me, it's not a shortcut because it is the only path that there is like, it's just, it's the only way to get from A to B and there is no not way to go from A to B.
You can only go from A to B. That's, that's what I think. And so it's just the most efficient way to get from A to B. Or how about this? Maybe a better example is like, it's the best way to get from A to Z. And there's a bunch of people who don't want to go through LMNOP because they're like, that's too.
Kyley: yeah,
Eva: And I was like, no, sorry, homie, you got to go through the whole goddamn alphabet. And you're just saying, all right, let's just like dive straight in. And some people don't, you know, understandably, no shade.
Kyley: yeah, no, it's not fun. I don't like, I don't recommend this for. Fun, except again, though, to the point of the efficiency of it, it's like in my willingness to just keep surrendering to, and let me get more specific about what I mean by surrendering to that too, is [00:14:00] like, so my process, my spiritual practice more than anything else is to set, to be as deeply present as possible with my emotions when they are rising up, which also means inviting them Like inviting them forward. So I think that's one of the things that I have done in this experience, right. It's like, in the beginning, there were just these like really intense waves of, of grief.
And it was a grief that hurt, right. Because, um, uh, because of the bigness of what I felt like I was losing. And Um, and when I talk about, like, okay, my intention is to let go part of what I have been letting go of is like, okay, well, then my intention is actually to feel as deeply as I can help paint, like the, the bigness of this grief.
Right. And to like, for me, this journey of surrender has been. [00:15:00] If we're grieving, then we're going to like. Um, really fall all the way in to whatever this creep looks like today. Um, and it's basically an allowing of pain, right? Whereas most of the time we're oriented around trying to avoid pain, whether consciously or subconsciously, and usually both, right?
Usually we're really, really oriented around like trying to protect ourselves from pain. And part of what has been really incredible about this experience is that instead I have been waking up and, um, not inviting the neutrality of like, we'll see what today brings. It's like, I've been like, okay, well, I'm, I'm sad.
I'm really fucking sad. So, or I'm pissed and I'm going to spend the day like inviting, which is inviting in. Which is different than, like, cultivating and stoking the story, right? I have not been interested in, like, [00:16:00] he said, she said, like, that kind of, like, grasping, ruminating story. The practice has been, like, I see the story, and we're going all the way into the heart or the body, and, like, we're gonna just cry or stomp our feet or,
Eva: all present. It's not like it's devoid of past or future and which is where story lives. There's no like, well, this is what happened and this is what's gonna happen in the future. It's like, no, this is how I feel right now. And it's like raw and it's alive and and it doesn't need a story, which I think is is healthy is that it's actually the only way to surrender because I think a lot of times.
And again, we've had many conversations about surrender, so I feel like we always have to give the caveat of like, oh, because people think that, like, if I surrender, it means that I'm going to get really fucking pissed. Oh, and then I go, let me just be, let me surrender to my, my anger. And I'm going to go and key someone's car.
Like, you know, you don't, you don't like, it's not, you feel it so completely that you actually aren't acting out from a place of. I [00:17:00] think, uh, what's a better, a better word to use, like, um, yes, thank you, you're not,
Kyley: You're not owned, because that's what ends up happening when you surrender to these, okay, when we resist these intense anger or grief or resentment or whatever, we resist them, they like it, like, they, like any temperamental toddler, they just get fucking louder, right? And, and that's when we get, like, um, Controlled by them.
So that's when we have the kind of anger response where we are just reactive and lash out, whether it are words or actions or whatever, because we have no, we have no control over it because basically control will always rupture. So the more we try to control and push away grief, resentment, anger, whatever, it's like.
Setting a powder keg. It's only going to explode. And then eventually, yeah, you're going to go key someone's car or whatever, versus like, I'll give an example, actually from Desi. So Desi just turned 7 and Desi and I are having a couple of moments these past [00:18:00] couple of weeks of like, butting heads in a way that we haven't before and yesterday, you know, some of it's just miscommunication.
Some of it is being 7 and yesterday. I don't even remember the details are good details are important because the story is not important and he just went, like, he just like kind of shouted and like threw his hands down by his side.
Eva: yeah, yeah,
Kyley: told him later I was really proud of him because he was feeling mad right then I think maybe like stomped his feet he was feeling mad and I was like, yeah, that's how I feel too like that makes sense, but he didn't like.
He didn't yell. He didn't like say mean things at me. He didn't like hurt me with his body, but also like he felt angry. And like, so he just had a moment of like, ah,
Eva: it, which actually, like, I honestly have moments where I wish I could do that more and I can feel myself holding back like, like literally stomping my feet and looking like a child. Like, I just want to ball up my fists and it feels like that is my body's natural [00:19:00] reaction to extreme frustration.
And I do, it just happens naturally sometimes if I'm like really frustrated and then there are moments where I like will judge myself for it because I'm like, I'm acting like a fucking seven year old, but it's actually like really healthy.
Kyley: And exactly. Like, cause most of us, and then that was, what was, what was beautiful was a couple of things. One, then he was, then he was fine. Right. Then, like, we bugged it, like, We swung back around to like, having a great fucking time in part because he was angry and he got a chance to be angry and anger is fine.
Right. But we're not anger. I think is a really good one. That's like, seems. Dangerous, right? Anger seems dangerous, so, and, and we're all taught, like, what is a normal parenting response is your kid does that and you go, like, knock it off. You have to put your gloves on or whatever, and, [00:20:00] and that's also what's cool is that in basically lovingly cultivating and giving space to my own anger these past two months, I am less reactive to my kid's anger.
So when Desi does that, I'm like, yeah, Yeah. Okay. Versus the me three months ago would have had to bite her tongue to keep from being like, knock it off, put on your gloves or whatever.
Eva: Okay, wait, this is a question I've been wanting to ask you because you've been speaking about anger to me more recently. And I want to ask you, how do you process your anger? What do you, what is your. Yeah, what's your deal with your anger? Like, how do you process it? Because I will say that, just to tell you what I already do, but then I feel like I, it's not enough.
It feels like I just, it's, just doesn't feel like enough. Is that like, I will let it in, and I will like, feel it, and sometimes I'll like, scream into a pillow, or like, stomp, or like, hit something, hit something, and just like, try and get it out of my body. And it all feels really great, but it doesn't feel [00:21:00] like enough.
Kyley: Mm.
Eva: wondering what your process is.
Kyley: Yeah. So, well, and you and I had an interesting conversation once we were just talking about how I think you and I. Like some women are really afraid of their anger, but I think you and I both shared that we grew up around enough anger that weirdly that gave us both like, yeah, it's fine. You just can yell at people.
It's fine. Right. I think like, I, I don't, I think I know a lot of women are really afraid to be angry that like, if they let it out, that, that kind of like, oh, it's not a pro it's not appropriate or okay to like be fucking pissed. And I think that is something that I don't really carry and that you've expressed.
You don't really carry. And yeah. I definitely am really have been really scared of anger, um, that's been one of the things that's been interesting to to watch is like to observe. Um, so, okay. In, you know, in any go just go through stages of grief, anger is one of them, right? Any kind of anytime life [00:22:00] abruptly shifts on you in an unexpected way like.
There's going to be moments where you're fucking pissed. And I think your point is right. That most of us don't really have great ways to deal with that. And I was watching how much I was afraid to be angry. I could see it. Like I could like see it out of the corner of my eye and I was like, no, thanks.
Eva: mm-Hmm.
Kyley: Or I could like intellectually see it, but I couldn't really feel it.
That was a big thing that kept happening. So for me in this particular instance, It was less that I was feeling angry and then had to move it for a long time. It was that I was watching to the point of surrender. I was watching that intellectually, the anger was there, but it was not, it was not an emotional experience that it was not a somatic experience that I was.
I could only tell the story of like, well, this is why I would be angry, but I wasn't. It wasn't in my body. And I actually think this, I've worked with a lot of clients who [00:23:00] have this experience. So if you are someone who has been through any kind of traumatic event or any carries any kind of trauma, um, uh, and you're in part of the process of like healing that trauma, if you have no, if you don't experience any anger, that just means that I think you haven't actually given yourself access to it probably because it feels too scary and too far away.
Um, So I have some like practices that I offer people if they want to like get it, if their anger is only intellectual and they need to like feel it. I actually, the thing that I started with to the point of surrender was I actually just set the intention every day for a while that was like, Okay. The anger can come out and I just basically was like, almost like coaxing, like a scared little kid.
Like, okay, I, I'm, I am willing to feel this anger. I'm really scared of it. I mean, so basically my, my personal entry point was watching how scared I was of the anger. That was the thing [00:24:00] that was available to me and like sitting in the fear and just continually saying the prayer of like, okay, this anger can come out.
This anger can come out. We can do it. We can go there. So that's one thing is just notice. If you are intellectually angry, but you can't feel it. Maybe you need to work up some safety to letting yourself feel it. Um, uh, maybe you're too disassociated from it or whatever, and that's okay, but it's fucking worth it.
Um, then this is not an exact answer to your question, but this fascinated me and it finally started to show up. It felt like a wave and it was like a. Teeny, teeny, teeny, I could, I could feel the energy that it was like, okay. And here is a teeny tiny little, like baby eyedropper, you know, like you feed like animals at the zoo, like baby eyedropper full.
And I watched how much my body could not handle it. Like I was like out of my skin. Like I could, I watched her like dinner table and I couldn't sit still at [00:25:00] dinner. I was like, and
Eva: Wait, sorry. Your body couldn't handle what? The
Kyley: Feeling the anger, like my body was just like so uncomfortable and again, my spiritual practice is so much about feeling my feelings that it's a very.
somatic thing, which means I, I can often walk around like being with my family while and like having actually great joy with my family while also watching that there's this huge amount of grief that's moving through my heart. Right. So I might be feeling really, really sad and also really happy with my kids at the same time, because that's just what.
That's what it often feels and looks like for me as I started to, the anger started to show up when I watched with my body. It was just like, what is this toxic thing? We can't do this. This is like, my body just started to like, really freak out. I started to have a ton of anxiety. I didn't want to sit still.
Like, I just wanted to like leave and be away from everybody. Um, and, yeah. Um, [00:26:00] and I just clocked like, okay, you had anger. I feels like re this is just my body. This is my nervous system. Doesn't know that anger safe. Like there's no safe, there's no space for the anchor. My nervous system doesn't know this is safe.
And then, but I just kept like saying the prayer of like, okay. And the anger can come and the anger can come. And, um, eventually what I started doing was scheduling anger walks.
Eva: Mm-Hmm.
Kyley: So I would go for a walk, it was like every day for a week, I went for a walk that was like two hours to an hour long to stomp around in the woods, or my neighborhood, and just be fucking pissed, and the point of the walk was to be mad.
And so I would like, talk out loud to myself, I would, I would, I would move, I would cry, I would Yell. I just gave myself permission to be pissed.
Eva: Yeah.
Kyley: and I, and, and it was about the, like, setting the space. Like it was like, [00:27:00] so much of it for me was, was about the per, it was like really intentionally, basically like cultivating that it was the space for it.
Eva: Mm-Hmm. . Yeah. I think that's, I, I mean, I love this idea of an anger walk, which is different from, I think what happens for me is it comes and then I like give it its space and I yell and I stomp and I think that's. But which anyway, it sounds like what you're doing is just more space, more intentional space.
Uh, which I'm like, Oh my God, that sounds amazing. Like, of course that's going to feel that force. I don't know if it's going to feel good, but of course that's going to move things and rather than having things be stuck.
Kyley: Yes. Mm-Hmm.
Eva: I will also say, I think something else that came up as we were talking is like, um, I think where, and I would actually love to know what you think about this as like a mom, because, uh, we've often talked about on the show about how like. [00:28:00] Uh, our caretaker roles, you obviously as a parent, and me as a caretaker for my parents who have lots of health stuff going on. And what I've been notice where I see anger a lot, recently, is just being pissed at my mostly my mom, because she's a very difficult person, just losing my shit so easily, zero to fucking sixty.
And, and so, this to this idea of surrender, you know, I I would think, okay, like, surrender to the anger, which then, it's like, okay, it means that I think what I've been experimenting with is what I'm trying to say is I've been seeing moments of myself blowing up at my mom, and in the past, I would judge myself, like, it felt shitty, not only because I lost my temper, but because then the torrential self judgment that came in afterwards of how I felt like complete shit.
And now I've been, this is tricky because it's going to make me sound like a sociopath, but I just, I [00:29:00] have a feeling it's actually the healthier thing to do is just like being like, you know what? I think that's okay. I think that sometimes it's okay, like she is notoriously difficult and I think it's okay that sometimes I've just been letting myself off the hook.
I guess you could just call it self compassion, but there is almost like a, I don't, do you ever do that? Like, let's say you lose your shit with on your, on your kids. And sometimes I'm sure there's a story of like, oh, I feel terrible, but is there ever a story where you're just like, you know what? totally fine.
Kyley: Yeah. I think,
Eva: And, and is that surrender? I don't know.
Kyley: Yeah. Well, right. Because like it all, it is also, it's fine because it happens, right? Like, so meaning what role
Eva: person, bad person, like it's not a moralistic issue, but it's just like, that's just the truth of how I am right now.
Kyley: [00:30:00] Yes. Yes. And, and it is right. And I, I think, I think that the. I mean, this is really hard because when I get mad at my kids, I always, like, it's, it's, you know, I never feel good about it. Uh, I'm really hard on myself about that. Um, and
Eva: of you that's like, you know what, they were being kind of a little shit and your reaction was completely valid. Is there ever that kind of, Validation?
Kyley: don't, I don't, I, but that, that I can also feel how that's a me thing, right? Like that, like, that's a thing that feels like, um, uh, like I can feel, I can feel my own story wrapped around that. I guess I'm trying to say that doesn't feel like the, the way in which that doesn't feel accessible to me feels like a lack of sovereignty. Which is not the same thing as like, Oh, it's great. Yell at everybody, but also just this feeling, I think Desi and I have kind of had a couple moments of this recently of like being annoyed at each other.
And then just being like, yeah, that's what happens. You get annoyed at people and it's okay. Um,
Eva: Yeah, I [00:31:00] think it's more of that. It's that like, that happens. Like, we are two humans who are just butting heads and like, this is going to happen and to take the judgment out of it, which to me, and I, as you can maybe sense and how I'm talking about this is like, this is still new territory for me. So I'm not sure how I feel about it yet because I am afraid of being a sociopath where I'm like, justifying maybe bad behavior.
I feel like I'm actually onto something. This idea of like, I was really frustrated in that moment because you pissed me the fuck off and, and like,
Kyley: yeah.
Eva: yeah, this is just how it is. Exactly. Yeah.
Kyley: the judgment is trying to control and almost like un like the judgment's, like this control mechanism versus, so one of the things, okay, so Jesse and I have had a couple moments of, like I said, of being annoyed at each other in a way that feels new and, and I, and I don't like, and I haven't been talking about it with, with Nick and a couple, a friend, another friend.
A lot of it has to do with [00:32:00] like a DHD hyperactivity stuff because to be totally transparent. I have a very, um, negative relationship with my own hyperactivity. So when my son is being hyperactivity, my nervous system gets very heat up. And so what I am, I am getting mad at my son because he is like.
Holding up a mirror to a part of myself that I have a tremendous amount of discomfort with versus get my kids start crying or does he being mad? And I'm like, yeah, I don't get triggered by my kids intense emotions because I have a really genuine and generous relationship with my own big feelings.
Right. So I am. I am mad because this is actually a thing that I don't like about myself. And so to the point, to use the lens of surrender, right? You get mad at your mom or I get mad at Desi. It doesn't feel good. It's not the thing we want to do necessarily, but [00:33:00] the judgment is actually a control mechanism, which turns off the opportunity to learn something. But if we actually like surrender, there's something in this, which is like, okay, you are getting angry. Why? What do you need here? What unmet need is being expressed? Like,
Eva: What are you projecting? Why did you, why are you triggered? Yeah. What's your, what's my mom as, you know, holding up as a mirror? Yeah.
Kyley: Right. And so how can you like, how can this be, how can this, how can your anger be an opportunity to love yourself more is a surrender practice and rejecting the anger is a control practice.
Eva: Love that. Love that. Love that. Yeah. Yeah. Makes complete sense. Yeah.
Kyley: so I want to talk for a minute to about why I think. We are afraid to get angry with people we love and how we resist it because I've been watching how that's like, that was a big part of why it [00:34:00] felt dangerous to let the anger out is because I love my friend and I want to, and largely do like respect and have actually great admiration for her decisions and, um, and. I watched how much it would, I want, it would have been easier for, it felt like it would have been easier for me to just avoid the anger, right? Because I have all this empathy and this respect and appreciation and blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. And I was using that to avoid feeling the anger, um, and it was keeping me trapped.
And so I want it. So basically before. I don't know if folks noticed, but I took like a month or six weeks or so off from social media because I just knew I had like, I have nothing to say and I need to recalibrate and I need to feel my feelings. And um, I was kind of tiptoeing up to the date of when I had said I would come back and I was like, I am not ready.
[00:35:00] And I felt so not ready that I thought maybe I'll take two more months off. Some part of it was like, maybe we're just done with all of this. Like, that's how much I was just like, holy shit, I can't come back yet. Um, and so I surrendered to that, right? And I even messaged Eva and I actually wrote a whole very beautiful Facebook post announcing that I was going to take another month or two off,
Eva: You just run into the possibility of that. Like, that one point, that, like, that's maybe what's gonna happen, because that's what you're feeling like needs to happen. Yep.
Kyley: right? And I was like, okay, I'm going to give myself the kind of a couple of days to sit with the idea of like, do I want to take a couple more months off? And, and then I finally let myself feel angry, which I had been avoiding because Uh, for all these reasons, right? It's uncomfortable. I, you know, and, and I was afraid of what my anger would say.
Ultimately for me, I was afraid that if I let the anger out, it would like, anger has a destructive energy, right? And I was already grieving destruction. And I was really afraid to let the anger out because I was like, but already things are being destroyed. And if I like anger out, then it's going to [00:36:00] destroy even more shit.
And then that's just going to cause more pain. Right.
Eva: Yeah. And it doesn't feel safe, you know?
Kyley: And it didn't feel safe. And what was really interesting to watch was that. Almost immediately after I started to actually feel some of this anger that up to that point had only been intellectual, I didn't have to take a break. I didn't have to take a, like, the need to take a break just.
Dissolved
Eva: Mm hmm. Mm hmm. Mm
Kyley: to have even more time, which is not to make the break wrong. That would have been really beautiful too, but it was like, the reason I wasn't ready yet was because I hadn't given myself permission to like pro because ultimately what my anger did was like birth away of prioritizing myself and putting myself first.
Um, and I couldn't come back, not in the place of prioritizing myself. And so. It was like, to the point of it, to the point of the shortcut, this is kind of what about the shortcut, right? Is like, if I didn't feel the anger, okay, well, then it would [00:37:00] have been 2 or 3 months of like, going potentially at a gentler pace.
Um, and, um, as soon as I let the anger start to move, it was like, oh, okay, I'm just fucking pissed. I can come back now. That's fine. Right. And, um, and so that's one thing. And then the other thing I want to say just about all of these intense feelings that we resist, we resist because we don't want to feel them. We resist that because we're afraid of what they will do to us. And because what we really want is to like, just feel okay. Right. We want to like, get to the position.
I want you to go fucking fine. I don't want this to hurt anymore. Whatever big, you know, Ragnarok you might be going through. And what I watch, what I have watched again and again is that every time one of these huge waves of big feeling, whether it's resentment, whether it's grief, whether it's anger, when I let myself be knocked around by it, I get [00:38:00] to the other side and I feel so much more peace about the situation every fucking time,
Eva: Yeah. Yeah. It's,
Kyley: fucking time.
And
Eva: It's so true. I mean, yeah, I had a whole blow up moment, actually, again, with my mom this trip back to Taiwan, and You know what? The truth is, I don't regret it for a fucking second. It was so, you know, I could have a story about how it was messy, and it was, I should feel bad that I, like, lost my shit or whatever, but the truth is, it was like, not only incredibly healing and cathartic, but also I calmed down.
Like it moved some shit in our relationship. I think like we had the conversation that we need to have the energy had shifted and everything like it, Oh, it was, it's like it opened something up or it was just a big release, right? It just opened something up then that you're saying there's more clarity on the other side of that.
So it was kind of nice.
Kyley: I [00:39:00] think that was kind of my experience of like watching how my body was like. Basically have an allergic reaction to anger. And that by the end of this, like I was calling it my anger week. By the end, my body was like, this is fine. Like we can do that. Right. And I could just hold the anger, um, with compassion alongside everything else, um, was because like literally things had moved inside of me, you know?
And so to your point, it's like, if there's no, we want these big changes. You know, we, all of us want like relationships to be different, money to be different, home to be different. If we don't let things die, there's no room for the change to come in. There's, there's nowhere for it to like grow and evolve.
And sometimes the thing that has to die, it's just like literally this, like, I think this like stagnant energy of, you know, repressed. Resentment at two or anger or whatever, you know?[00:40:00]
Eva: Okay,
Kyley: yes,
Eva: selfishly ask you a question in hopes that you will give me some of your coaching wisdom and magic, because I think I'm someone who is really dang good at surrender and also And at the same time, I could equally say that's also laughable at the same time because I'm like, there's so many areas and ways that I, you know, that I don't, and, and, and I could just, you know, don't let go at all or, you know, and so, or,
Kyley: I mean, hard same, right? I'm teaching this class. It's going to be amazing. We're going to blow up. Everyone's going to walk away completely different. And also like, the fuck do I know about surrender? Because it's so huge, right? Because it is. And I feel like Ron Doss would say the same thing, right?
Like that's,
Eva: Well, and not only that, but like, it's easy for me to, when I'm not, anytime we're not identified with a situation, it's so much easier for us to, to surrender. So like, but the things that are like, we are the most identified with, [00:41:00] the things that are closest to us that feel most charged.
It's like, I can't even see how to surrender. And so I want to give you an example of that right now. And I want you to see, okay, I will love your feedback. Okay. So part of, okay. What's been going on with me. Just by the way, folks, just want to name that like the beginning of 2024, 2024 has been, I mean, Kyley's going through this huge stuff, huge, huge, like metamorphosis, like caterpillar goo phase.
I've just got a lot of family stuff going on. I'm also, you know, I moved from Austin to Taiwan. I, I'm going to be here for three months and I'm moving to Brazil. There's just like, it just feels. It doesn't actually feel bad to me. It just feels like, whoa, there's just like a lot of stuff going on. And I just want to name, by the way, for anyone, I want to give a shout out to all the people who are optimistic about the new year, who are always like, this is going to be my year.
And, you know, there's always kind of a joke about how that's just some, like. I don't know. It's wishful thinking. And I'm like, fuck yes. Like fuck yes to every person who has the [00:42:00] vulnerability, the balls and the ovaries to be like, Oh, this is a vulnerable thing to say, to be like, Oh, this is going to be my year.
Like never. I just love the optimism. You know, I think that's very brave. Anyway, just like my little rant on 2020, 2024,
what's happening for me is that, you know, I have a short period of time while I will be back here. And one of the big goals was to help my mom find a care, care, a caretaker before I leave. Cause she's. I mean, I don't know how much I've disclosed and, and all this will come out, you know, when it will, I'm not trying to, I'm not cagey, but I just haven't had a chance to talk about it.
And so these all leak into in different times. My parents are getting a divorce. Have I mentioned that on the podcast
Kyley: don't think so.
Eva: Okay. So my parents are 70. They're getting a divorce. There's all this drama going on and my mother, who is mentally. Ill and also an alcoholic has been, was on her, is on her own and she's got a lot of health issues.
So, and before I [00:43:00] came back here, it was the first time that she had been alone and it wasn't being taken care of, you know, in her life. And like, I mean, she got, she started getting sick when she was like in her thirties and she's in her seventies. So it's been 40, 40 years where she's had, you know, my dad by her side to help. And so there were moments before I got here where she was getting. Really shit face wasted falling, going out to public, passing out drunk, like really like risking, like she's 70 years old. She could fall and, and really hurt herself. So like high risk stuff. And so everyone's like, Eva, you need to like help get her a caretaker before you leave. And. I came in here also feeling a real sense of urgency to be like, that needs to fucking happen right before I leave. Understandably. And then over the course of time, I've been seeing like, it's been really hard for it to happen for all these different reasons, because her resistance, because I was sick, like all of these circumstantial things.
So I've been here for a month and a half and we haven't even started looking for a caretaker. And I [00:44:00] just don't know if it's going to happen in the time that I'm here. And there's this weird part of me. That's like, What? I don't know. It's like, it is a surrender of like, I don't know what's supposed to happen.
Like, if we're supposed to get her a caretaker, it'll happen. And if we're not, it's not going to happen. Like, that's not kind of for me to know. Like, I can do my part. I'm going to do all the things. I will like, you know, we are signing up. We are looking for people. We're talking, you know, all there's like steps that you take, but I feel way less. Responsible and there's way less sense of urgency and I'm confused about that because that feels healthier. And yet, at the same time, it feels, uh, a little irresponsible, or maybe I'm, I'm concerned that that's. I can hear like, there's a lot of this is like, my family stuff of being like, you know, I should have a lot obligation. So anyway, I think you get my question. The surrender piece in this is like, is like, I'm happy to surrender to whatever outcome [00:45:00] happens. Like that feels true. And also that feels dangerous.
Kyley: really interesting because. What's coming up as you're sharing this story is I feel fucking pissed for you like my like my whole body response is just to be like Furious on your behalf in a way that was like, almost distracting. Like, I was like, y pop up your question because I'm gonna explode. I'm so mad on your behalf.
So that's fascinating. Uh,
Eva: just say. Yeah, I mean, I hear you, but there's so many complicated emotions that come with this, but I will say like, I'm definitely holding on to some anger because my grandma called me there today. My sweet, innocent, lovely grandma who I adore calling me being like, Hey dude, like she didn't say like that, but she was like, Hey, like what's the deal with your mom's caretaker?
Like she's getting older. So she's a little bit more nervous, but there was a sense of pressure of like, uh, are you on this? Like you got to make sure this happens before you leave because your mom can't live by herself and you can't risk falling again, blah, blah. And I just [00:46:00] totally snapped at my grandma because I was pissed.
Like someone who I don't want to snap at, but I was like, do you not think that I'm thinking about this every fucking day? Like I'm thinking about this. Do you not think that this is already not like some big weight on my shoulders? And I don't, and it pissed me off because I was like, I feel the burden of care.
I feel the burden of responsibility. And now I'm also pissed off because I like your, your, your, your going out of where to call me is insinuating that like, you think that I'm not on top of this when it's all I think about, like I was pissed. And then, so I think. Maybe, anyway, so yeah, I get, I get, thank you for feeling pissed on my behalf, because I feel like that's you having my back.
Kyley: Yes and yes. So it's feels like it's two things. One is it feels like it's just like as your friend having your back, and then two, like, because you asked this in the, like you, you asked the question. You asked me to put on like, you know, shaman, mystic coach hat. Uh, I also think it's because you're not done being angry about it.
And so if I were like. If you want, like, the real coach [00:47:00] answer, I actually think you need to be more mad about this, because I think that the clarity you're seeking doesn't fully exist, because you haven't moved through the layers of anger around what, like, what is in this insanely frustrating situation for Eva.
Which, because also, like, this is like the perfect example. This is like the crux of all of the fucking baggage of you when you go back home, right? Which is like the burden of care and like the pressure of family responsibilities and like your mom's health and the like delicate way in which for decades you've navigated like what I can fix and what I can't fix and like, so there is to me like no better crucible than this caretaker question.
And I think this is where it's interesting, you know, when you said, like, if I'm supposed to get up and, and I, and I love that. And also, I don't give a shit about that. That's really my honest answer. Meaning
Eva: Wait, sorry, which part do you not, which
Kyley: the, the, the [00:48:00] part of like, okay, so we think of like, okay, surrender, if it's supposed to happen, it'll happen.
If it's not supposed to happen, it won't happen. I mean, this is like an interesting, like a side jack, jack, but like. I don't know how much I believe in quote unquote, supposed to happen and that's the, and the surrender of like, if it's supposed to happen, if it's not supposed to happen, because I think, I think that there's a way, there's a truth to that because like, I think that logic can give us real access to surrender. And I think there's a kind of disassociative disempowering thing that can happen in that also that acts as if we are not. Also God in our own life, right? Cause that was my personal repeated experience is that I am a teeny tiny speck of sand and I am God, right?
Not one or the other, but both. And so if we, if we, I think that like quote unquote danger of if it's supposed to happen, is that it puts [00:49:00] us so firmly in the camp of tiny speck of sand. And I think anger is part of the like initiation into, and also you are God, because anger is about our relationship to being powerful and big and prioritizing our own needs and kind of demanding the kind of care that we need from our own life. And so I think, yeah, there can be a great piece that comes from, well, if it's supposed to happen. And I don't know, I think there can be something almost disassociative about that. I don't think you're disassociating, but I think that like logic can, can kind of like,
Eva: Totally. I mean, I think you're saying
Kyley: see what I'm trying to
Eva: I think I see what you're saying. Like, you know, when people go like, I actually hate when people say this because I think this is like a thing that people were saying a lot of at some point, [00:50:00] maybe with, I don't know when it became popular, but like, it is what it is.
Kyley: I knew that was the phrase you're going to say. I knew it. Yes.
Eva: it just drives me. I think it just was. Oh, I don't know if I just knew people who use the phrase too much, but it
Kyley: I hate it too.
Eva: what it is.
Kyley: You know why I hate it? Because it, it, it masquerades as surrender and it, and it can be right. Because as we're talking about surrender is infinite layers. Right. And so like, I think there, there can be a kind of surrender in that, but it's kind of, yes. And it's a resigned surrender. Like, yeah, it is what it is.
So to me, like what fucking Petri dish of like delicious, terrible, beautiful, life changing things is in this Petri dish. And, and how can we like fall into it fully without losing ourselves? [00:51:00] Uh, it's like, how can, how can these things be the portal rather than the like, Oh, it is what it is. Therefore, nothing needs to change.
And I, and I'm not going to be changed by it, which I don't think is what you're saying, but I do. That's what I think that phrase. It is what it is. Brings up for
Eva: No, I actually think you're really onto something because there is a way where I've been thinking about, it's so strange because I think it can be both too, which is why it's confusing for me because when I say the thing to myself, I'm like reassuring myself. I'm like, okay, well, if it happens, I do actually truly believe though, that reality, however, it ends up being is exactly how it's supposed to be.
Like, I do believe that, like, because anyway, but, but, but I'm like, okay, hold on. Let me, let me gather what I'm trying to say. And at the same time, when I say that, like, if it, if my mom has caretaker or if she doesn't have a caretaker, it does both things. I actually do. It gives me a huge sense of letting go.
There is a great feeling of peace, like, like healthy [00:52:00] peace that comes from being like, yeah, that it comes from being like, if it doesn't happen. I can just trust life. Still, and it's not, it's not all on me. Like, girl, I see you, you feel overwhelmed and it's all good. Like I spirit have your back kind of thing. So that gives me that, but there is also an element of like, as you were saying it, I could feel it.
It's like you were pointing to something that I couldn't see that dismissal. The. The, whatever, you know, the disassociate, if there is an aspect of that too, and it's so interesting to me and I think that's why it's confusing because I feel both, but it's just, but it's health like helpful to see that that dismissal part or, and is, and disassociate part is also there.
Anyway. This is really great though because as you're saying like, oh, I need, I need to go feel my anger. I'm like, fuck. I'm like, you are so absolutely right because I'm pissed on so. Many levels. This is like an ancestral like going this is going back. This is going way back to all [00:53:00] these things and I'm like And I and I can actually say right now.
I don't like Who knows if this is true, but I almost feel like if I don't feel my anger, like this is going to be a gift being feeling my anger. And so the potential of what's waiting for me on the other side, if I allow myself, if I surrender to this and let myself go there is going to be so beautifully stunning.
And at the same time, I'm so dreading it because I'm like, this is gonna suck.
Kyley: Yeah, I just wrapped up my anger week. So I got your back. I got your back. It's like literally what I was calling it because I could feel it was like a wave that I could feel like, okay, tomorrow's going to be bigger. And I like knew the day that was going to be the crest of the wave. I was right. It was Thursday.
Eva: my god, that's amazing.
Kyley: Yeah.
Eva: Yeah, I can just see it's like, I have to process shit with my dad and like, why, then why did they even get married in the first place and all this stuff. And when you, and so I love, thank you so much for suggesting, for gifting me with this idea of an anger walk, [00:54:00] because I actually have a vision of myself going into the mountain where I walk with a big ass stick.
And I'm just going to fucking like, I can just see it. See it like, just, I just want to like hit things with a stick. It's just like a woman in the room. Hey, as if it was a machete,
Kyley: Yes. Oh my God. I can feel how jazz the forest is too to be like, get into it.
Eva: Yeah. Yeah. It's as if like my, like my like animal instinctual part of me is like stoked actually about getting in there and just being primal with my rage. That's what it feels like.
Kyley: And I think the thing that was very cool, I mean, I, I think this way they were like called it the surrender and it's actually like totally just about anger and rage. I think what was really interesting for me is that each day. Like, so we've had this anger week, right, where it like finally started to move and like flow and each day, this is often how, when I'm in one [00:55:00] of these like deep surrender states, um, around like an intense experience, it's like each day offers me a new facet of like self that I am Returning to, or like a new facet of understanding or, or compassion or like a new layer that I'm feeling through.
So it was like, I was angry every day for a week, but it was. Like slightly different flavors each day. So, right. So I could see for you if like, okay. One day is like, what the fuck dad? Why did you guys even get married? And then the next day is like, what the fuck mom? Like, why are you right? Whatever, whatever.
And so
Eva: Well, I mean, already there. I think that's a really, I want to like ask this for myself and also for listeners who I think this information is so valuable and I hope people can really, you know, get something out of this. But like, do you let the anger show you the thing that you're angry about, like the story or like, cause I think I might not even be, there's something that I'm very clearly angry about that I can see.
And then I think there's some things [00:56:00] that I feel like I can just tell are tucked away are not yet obvious to me because. for like a list, a laundry list of reasons, right? Like, like if I'm mad, it means that I think I'm mad at my, I'm mad at part of this, that part of this burden of care for me is happening because I'm mad at my dad or because my dad's like leaving my mom or whatever.
And so, but I don't want to be mad at my dad because he's been the caretaker of my mom for so long. And I, I have this whole like loyalty to my dad. So I'm afraid.
Kyley: yes. Oh my God. I'm
Eva: that I am, you know, it's like, it doesn't mean anything, but I'm making it mean like, Oh, if I'm angry at my dad, it means that I, I'm being, you know, I'm, I'm being disloyal.
It means I don't want him to be happy. Like, I just feel almost bad for being mad at him for no, or I don't want to say for no reason. It's like, I don't even need a reason to be angry though. That's, that's kind of what I'm getting into. It's like, I don't need a fucking reason
Kyley: Okay.
Eva: anyway, but I do want to know, how do you uncover the stories that are not yet like clear to you?
Does that come out in the process? Do you
Kyley: My God. Okay. So many things. [00:57:00] One is, um, no, you don't need a reason. Like your body will handle it for you. Right. It's like our body and our heart, the more important it's like, especially this is the beautiful thing about this kind of surrender. Cause there's lots of kinds of certain, but this particular kind of surrender is to surrender to the state of your heart and surrender to the wisdom of your body.
And so like they will move it for you. Right. Our job is just to be present and to make space like you macheting the fucking woods with your big ass stick. It's like your body's like, yeah, we got this. You're, you're not required because our, our, our mind that wants to understand is the mind and that would control.
Right. And so I've used this metaphor before, but for me, it's always like top of the ocean is the story. I dropped down into the feeling. And then what happens for me is that I come back up. Right. So I go on the anger walk and then I come back up and there's just clarity. Right. It's just like, all of a sudden I understand something, but also some of what moved, I didn't understand.
Right. And so, [00:58:00] so I want to offer like, that you don't have to, you do not have to understand. I do think if you feel deeply enough, wisdom will just reveal itself to you.
Eva: Mm hmm.
Kyley: Um, and I also think story can be a very helpful portal in so, um, it's bulls, right? And, um, because it had, this has been a very somatic experience, but also part of the semantics of it in full transparency is that I went for a walk three days in a row and I just yelled at my friend on my walk.
To her, right, but to the idea to the projection of her because to be clear, it's just actually my brain creating a projection. That is a new thing that I'm at about. Um, uh, and, um, and I think you say something so big, which is like. We don't want to, if there's moments where we can't help but be mad, like the moment where you [00:59:00] yelled at your mom or the moment where I yelled at Desi, it's like, we, we can't help but be angry.
And so it's just there, but we often are really afraid to cultivate and invite out the anger at the people that we love when it's not like rupture it when it's not active rupture, because we love them. Right? Like, I love my friend, you love your dad. There's all these intellectual reasons why we can also be like.
Admire and be grateful and blah, blah, blah. And also, if you don't feel that fucking anger, it's not, it's, it's, it's there. You not feeling it means you're actually holding it, right? You're keeping it. You're like,
Eva: Yep. Yeah,
Kyley: like a piece of coal that you're sticking into your heart with your relationship with your dad.
So you're trying to love him more deeply, but you're actually running interference because you're resisting the fact that, you know, you know what? Fuck you. I'm so pissed that you made this choice.
Eva: Totally. There's a way in which it's actually very loving
Kyley: Mm
Eva: to be angry. Like, and I, and [01:00:00] we see this all the time, how we do this thing out of, with good intention, but it's an illusion. Like it's not, it's actually giving us the opposite results of what we want. I see this all the time with clients. It's like, you're anyway, you know, it's like you're, uh, yeah, it's like we act out of should because with all good intentions, but it's actually incredibly toxic and then it ruins.
Things like, you know, long, long-term. Just there's a million different examples of that. Yeah.
Kyley: There's a million different examples and, and I think there's a difference between being reactive and responsive to our anger and there's a difference between like, like, again, like me out on my anger walk, yelling at the projection of my friend is actually very fucking different than me picking up the phone and yelling at my friend.
Those are two different things. And one, and sometimes we need to do both. Right. But one is like a very loving invitation to just be like. What's the idea of this person that I am angry at that I need [01:01:00] to move through things, you know, that I need to move through things around and how can I honor and allow what is, this is the true, it is what it is, right?
It's like, how can I honor what is, and therefore my friend and I are actually both free of. That thing, and that projection and that pain, um, and and to the point of surrender, the truth is actually the other thing that is scary is that we don't actually know what's on the other side. So, potentially. You feel your anger deeply enough at your dad and you realize you have to have a difficult conversation with him, right?
Potentially I feel my anger deeply enough my friend and I realize like I don't want to be your friend any right like Potentially we feel it enough that it changes us and therefore we have to make Choices and at where potentially you feel the anger enough and you're like, you know, what mom's caretaker is in my responsibility I'm out you all deal with rights
Eva: [01:02:00] right. Well, this is what you meant when you said that you were like scared of your anger 'cause you were afraid of what your anger might show you or tell you. Or decide for
Kyley: Yeah, right. And to me, this is like, goes back to the whole surrender piece is like letting yourself be changed by these big emotions is also to surrender the outcomes. Like, okay, this anger exists. It is going to change me. I'm going to surrender to it because I'm going to trust that it takes care of me.
Even if I don't know what the outcome of it will be.
Eva: And just one more practical piece of advice I want also just want to offer because I think it is actually really good advice for how to deal with anger towards the world and you know, there's shit still blown up in the Middle East and there's a genocide going on and there's all this stuff happening and I think I had a very dear friend of mine share with me a very similar experience with what he does when he was very upset with what was going on and he's very [01:03:00] personally affected.
He went and just like yelled and was angry and said things that he thought, and he's, this is like a very gentle, sweet, peaceful person. And he said like the vicious things that were just coming out of his mouth were just like things he wouldn't, you know, never want anyone to hear him say because they're awful.
But like, he just like. You just got to get it out of your system. And I don't think it means anything. Like it doesn't mean you don't have to actually like, you know, you can like, I guess what I'm trying to say is like similar to you yelling at your friend, you're not actually yelling at her. Do you know what I mean?
But you're saying some things that I think need to get out of your system. And so
Kyley: Hmm.
Eva: think that's a really healthy way of dealing with like overwhelm with the world. And I think that's And that's probably a useful practice for many of us out there right now, who are again, who have been, who continue to be, and who will be again, overwhelmed with what's going on in [01:04:00] the world.
Kyley: I'm so glad you said that because I think one of the biggest things that when. When situations feel really upsetting, whether they're personal or in the world, is that we feel despair. We feel hopeless, we feel powerless. We feel despair, and that's the terrible gift of anger, is that it is actually a really tremendous antidote to despair because anger is the part of you that's like, we are not powerless, right?
If we actually integrate our anger, our anger is the like boundary setter. Our anger is the dragon. Our anger is the like. You are not victim in your own fucking life, even though. If we play like Anger can show, can create a story of victim, but the energy and emotion of it is to remind you that you are not victim in your own life.
And so,
Eva: actually heard that anger is oftentimes a response to feeling powerless. It's like, like we feel powerless. And so then we get pissed, which is, can be a healthy response. Sometimes I think it can be an unhealthy response and it can also be a healthy response.
Kyley: and I think [01:05:00] sometimes one of the, one of the reasons, like, so I, I see there's a handful of emotions that I call protector emotions. Um, and like anxiety is one, right? It's like, if you're feeling anxious. That's not the primary thing. Anxiety is just trying to get so loud that you can't feel whatever's underneath it, which might be shame, which might be, you know, deep grief, whatever
Eva: that's actually
Kyley: might be anxiety
Eva: wonder if almost all emotions are protective. You know what I mean? Like, they're
Kyley: Oh, that's interesting. Well, I think despair, despair is definitely another protector of ocean in my experience that it's trying to keep us from. Um, that's an interesting thought, but,
Eva: But I also do, by the way, love this idea of a protective emotion. And we'll probably borrow that because I can see, like, when we see that so clearly, we can have so much more compassion and space for our emotions. Yeah. As you know.
Kyley: for me now when despair. But especially like despair and anxiety show up, [01:06:00] um, for me, then the invitation I get, I get anxious more than I get despair, but. When they show up for me, my question now is, okay, what are you keeping me safe from that? Actually, I can I can feel and that was how I that was actually the entry point to this anger week for me was like Oh, I am so anxious.
What is under this anxiety? and I basically like topics spoke to myself with this like real compassion that was like, okay, Whatever is in here, it's safe to come out. And that was how I started to intellectually see the shape of anger and then kind of cultivate an invitation to it. Um, uh, and I, but anyways, I think despair is another one that we feel a lot, especially with the world at large.
And so if you are in despair, anger can be a really potent antidote if you invite it out.
Eva: Awesome. Good. I feel like jazzed, actually. Like, I think this is gonna suck. And it's also going to be beautiful, and it's going to be scary, and I think this is such a [01:07:00] But there's like, you know, anyway, I'm just stoked that like, you know me, it's so funny because like, all of this is very spiritual to me, but there is a very logical like, this is something that I can do, you know?
Component. Component.
Kyley: yes, yes, yes. And I feel jazzed for you because in some ways. I think some part of me has been waiting for this for you as soon as, like, we set the, you set the date to go home, right? Because, um, I don't think it was fully intellectual, but now that we're here, I'm like, oh, right. Like, how could you, everything that you have gone through in the lead up to this trip, and then during this trip, like, how could you, how could you, almost what I'm feeling is like, how could you rob yourself of the opportunity of having, like, a complete, like, anger rupture?
Mm. Mm hmm.
Eva: my god, that's so good. Okay, um, I, hey, one, two other, two, One or two other quick things I want to say, I'm actually stoked that my period is arriving soon because I actually think, I mean, listener, [01:08:00] longtime listeners of the pod know that I've been on a journey with my, you know, period and hormones and I've, and I've experienced Um, so clearly that the emotions that arise when I'm on my bleed are the ones that are just haven't been felt and aren't meant to be felt.
And I feel like a lot and I feel intense and you know, people are like, this is a PMS thing. You're just being emotional. You're just being hormonal. No, no. I think this is like generational stuff, right? That like it's a gift that's here for you to process. And it's so crazy because when I've allowed myself to process my big, intense emotions on my period.
Awesome things happen like supreme relaxation, really good sleep, different relationships, all these things. And sometimes it's hard for me to access. Big feelings or but on my period though, it's not hard for me to access, but like, for instance, anger, this thing, this piece of anger of like, I know why I don't want to feel angry about my parental thing because, uh, guilt or I feel bad or all these other things, but I think it's going to be easy for me to access.
[01:09:00] this like rage as I start my bleed and that'll be a good portal. And to me, this is two, two kinds of magic happening at the same time. It's like the feeling emotions piece. And also like, even Eckhart Tolle has talked about how, like, a woman's bleed is the sacred time that's alchemical for you to like, make big fucking magic.
And so I'm like, okay, cool. I can use this, like, let's use these things together. Um, so
Kyley: Yes. That's really funny because I also actually started to bleed at the very beginning of my anger week too, which I experienced for me, I watch how consistently my. My cycle shows up moments of release. Like it happens almost like it's actually like a very mystical, beautiful thing that I will like have some kind of breakthrough or I will like say the thing I've been avoiding saying, or like, I will like finally surrender to whatever.
Kind [01:10:00] of thing has been moving through me and it will reach some kind of like climactic moment and then my bleed starts like the very next day, like my body's like, great. Now that you've surrendered to that, we can shed it.
Eva: right. I remember you telling me once, which I loved, which I thought was so beautiful. It's like, yeah, your bleed comes when you've had that release, like there's a moment of release. And I've, and I've since tracked and seen that. Ways that that's true, too.
Kyley: Yeah. And I'm again, that's not prescriptive. That's a like, that's a Kyle. That's a my experience, but it's been really beautiful. And it's, it's really given me an opportunity to feel like, yeah. And really deep, like, oh, me and my body, we really are, we're, we're allies. We're, we're in this together, you know,
Eva: hmm. Yeah. All right.
Kyley: okay, well, I can't wait to hear what moves through you.
Eva: Oh, God. Okay. I mean, I, yeah, I, yeah, I mean, we'll, we'll, we'll see. Buckle up. Let's, yeah, we'll, we, we will see. Um, and was there anything else you wanted to say about this topic of, I mean, I think this has been, uh, [01:11:00] as your friend, I've witnessed, you just go through something really huge and you are. Living this magic and medicine of surrender.
Yeah. I don't know. Is there anything else that you want to say? Hmm.
Kyley: I think there's lots of different kinds of surrender. That's part of what this conversation is helping me see. And I think, um, perhaps strangely enough, this conversation has helped me. Realize even more deeply that like the kind of surrender that I can offer is, or the kind of support that I live and the kind of surrender I can offer support or another kind of surrender that I live is like just surrendering really, really deeply to your own heart and, um, which is.
Potentially different than surrendering really, really deeply to the external, like they're adjacent, but they're, um, but they're not [01:12:00] necessarily exactly the same. And that actually just feels really clarifying. Cause also a big, huge part of everything that's happening. It's like, what do I do? What is my space?
Uh, that I hold, um, on the other side of this transition. So anyway, I'm kind of experiencing some gratitude around. Oh, yeah, that's what I do. If you want, if you want to surrender really fucking deeply to the magic that is your own heart, which has to do with trusting your own heart, which has to do with feeling more deeply the presence of your, of being in your own fucking life, like that is, that is what we're going to do in Surrender Magic.
And that is, I think in a lot of ways, the sacred work that I, that I move with. So
Eva: that you live and teach and breathe so well.
Kyley: yeah, yeah. So I think I'm just experiencing gratitude [01:13:00] at that piece of clarity.
Eva: Yeah. I think what I've written down, which I think will help me because even it's, you know, I have fear about going into this anger with my family, but I just, my notes have come together to read how, why would I rob myself of this? Experience of trusting my own heart
Kyley: Mmmmmmm
Eva: oh, god, there's it's going to be so good.
Kyley: I can't wait.
Eva: All right. So let's do joy. Yeah, because yeah, let's do joy. Um, what's bringing you joy, Kyley? What's our first joy of 2024?
Kyley: First year of 2024, you know what? Uh, yesterday was just like the sweet, I had a whole incredible week. Oh, okay. So many things I can say. I have had an incredible weekend and in the midst of this whole Ragnarok, I have had just such an explosive amount of joy that's been in my life for these past few months, that is like showing up in this like truly almost like ostentatiously [01:14:00] abundant way.
Uh. Um, and so I am just like really relishing that, but in particular this past weekend, I've shared on the podcast before that, uh, I've experienced a lot of loneliness over the years. And we did a whole episode about feeling like all my community is like for really far away. And these past two months, as I've been moving through this have actually been this really incredible experience over and over again of like community, community, community.
And, um, this past weekend was one of those moments where it was like, we got to see a ton of different friends in person and friends that are like newer friends, but like, feel really like intimate and where they're, you know, their kids are friends with our kids and my son and his seventh birthday party.
And I was just seeing this table full of these like. Wild and generous hearted boys and girls and being like, Oh, my son knows how to pick good friends. Like there's nothing better in the whole world than knowing how to like, pick good friends. [01:15:00] And, um, and then yesterday we just had this weekend of like, I read like almost all day.
It's just like laid on the couch and read and my kids did Legos. And I just, um, is so maybe what is bringing me joy is my own fucking life. I guess that's the answer.
Eva: yeah. Well, yeah, I'm hearing you say. That your desire for community is coming into intangible form like you're experiencing an intangible form and I think we've both talked about like the importance of community and, and the, um, the, you know, the realness of isolation in different ways. And so I'm just love this so much for you because you left me a message.
I just, I could tell how joyful you were about all this.
Kyley: Yeah. And it feels like the, this, this experience and the surrender to this experience and the [01:16:00] presence of like deep community aren't, they aren't random happenstance, right? Because a lot of what I'm moving through at a deeper level has to do with like my willingness to like. You know, be my own community and love myself more deeply.
Right. And so it's also feels all basically I'm having this really incredible experience of watching how all everything that I'm moving through feels like the culmination of a big ass fucking cycle around Kyley and her ability to be loved in the world and her willingness to let herself be loved in the world.
And, um, I'm kind of humbled by the whole fucking thing. Yeah.
Eva: I just am so amazed by you Yeah, these are honestly this this is like the fruit of the of the seeds that you've been planting which is what's really cool
Kyley: Yeah.
Eva: okay, so I also have a ton of joys to share because I feel like they've just been like I've been stockpiling them since our last recording at the end of the year, but [01:17:00] um, I'll throw some out like just like the abundant fun with my cousins here and Just partying and being goofy and being close in new ways and I love family and I love going out and having fun in Taiwan because Taiwan is a dope ass city and it's just a lot to be, there's a lot to be enjoyed.
Uh, turning 40, oh yeah, I turned 40, my
Kyley: yeah.
Eva: was earlier this year and I have, I mean, we're gonna talk more about that in its own show, I'm sure, because, um, I am in a place where I'm just really stoked about the process of aging, which is a big deal for me because that's not how it's always been. And now that I'm finally at 40, I'm like, and I was so weirded out by the phrase middle aged.
And now I'm at 40, I'm like, Oh yeah, I'm middle aged. And also 40 is young. And, and like, not saying that as a way to like, keep myself young, not as a justification, not as like a weird, like, no, like, I mean, actually like, I, like, [01:18:00] I, of course I think 40 is young. That's just, of course when I was 20, I thought 40 was young, but like, In the grand scheme of reality.
I'm like, Oh, 40 is young. Anyway, it's just a really nice take. And also, I don't know, just, she's been like lots of lovely little moments. And I guess I don't know if I've given a shout out to Japanese toilets before, but there is nothing I have not. Oh, my God, Kyley. There's nothing like sitting on a warm toilet seat when it's cold outside.
It is truly the fucking best. Like I'm not even like that. That should get a spot all on its own in terms of joy. Cause I have, it's like a deep joy of mine that I get to sit down on my toilet and I know that it's going to be warm and in, in Taiwan and all throughout Asia, really Japanese toilets, like are pretty.
Kyley: my gosh. I didn't even know about this. This is
Eva: Oh my god, I have to tell you
Kyley: I've never been to Asia, so I've
Eva: Japanese toilet culture. They all have like these awesome bidets that just have like different water options and you can change the temperature of how you want this water to wash your vag and your [01:19:00] butthole and and it comes with a dryer then it like dries with a little fan.
Kyley: And when we were in Italy, our kids were like fucking obsessed with the days, obviously, like, cause you know what? Four year old is not going to think it's funny. And also they were like, no, but like my daughter was out of her way to not go to the bathroom. But in Italy, she was like, yeah, yeah, I'll go poop.
Eva: totally. I remember when I first encountered my first bidet. Me and my cousin, we just, oh, it was like hilarious to us. We didn't actually know what it was, so we turned it on and it shot water all the way across the bathroom and we were just dying laughing. It was a very hilarious experience, except because it's a Japanese toilet, it's all high tech and it makes all these like beep, beep, beep sounds.
So yeah, it's a whole, it's a whole thing, but
Kyley: Well, I love this.
Eva: Yeah. All right. So hopefully you will come to Asia and experience that with
Kyley: I can't wait. I can't wait. The list is growing longer of all the things that, you know, I can enjoy when I come to visit you when you're in Taiwan.
Eva: yes.
Kyley: All right. Beloved listeners. Thank you. [01:20:00] May you have the most delicious 2024. Can't wait to watch what happens for all of
Eva: Yes. For all of us. And we love you. And if you like the show, we would love it if you could subscribe, follow, send it to people, write a review. That's, that's like a, you just gotta go into your Apple thing. Oh, actually, like we're getting bigger on, uh, Spotify too. That's the thing. Your reviews really help us.
So thanks for spreading the love y'all.