What happens when we quit the things that are trapping us? And how can we love ourselves through the transition from burnout to freedom? We also talk women’s health, and perimenopause.
What happens when we quit the things that are trapping us? And how can we love ourselves through the transition from burnout to freedom? We also talk women’s health, and perimenopause.
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[00:00:00]
Eva: What's up. Hello, universe listeners. It's your cohost Eva here. And we have a really amazing guest for you today. Emily McDowell, who I think some of you may already know if you follow, if you're on Instagram at all ever, you've definitely probably seen her work as Emily on life. Um, so much that I can say to introduce her.
And before I get into that, I want to share a couple of quick business things. Um, I want to help Kylie promote her new offer, which sounds amazing. She's offering a money breakthrough, which is a single session with her, which [00:01:00] in my experience is always helpful. Definitely a breakthrough that goes along with the full self study course on, you know, breaking through your money stuff, which is where Kylie is, you know, chef's kiss, like some of the work that she was incarnated on this earth to do.
Um, and of course, you know, cracking. deeply cracking open your money wounds and all your money stuff is really just cracking open all of your, um, general stuff when you're wounding, you're limiting thoughts, limiting beliefs, um, where you hold back, where you don't let, you know, you don't have an easy time receiving all of that stuff.
And I really love this combination of having the self study, but also having one on one support from Kylie. It sounds amazing. And if money is an area in which you struggle, um, you know, Kylie's your girl. As for me, I am continuing to do my one on one coaching and spiritual mentorship. Um, this [00:02:00] private container, I mean, intimate container is really a space for people who want to deepen their spiritual practice, whatever that might mean to you.
Oftentimes. It's definitely devoting yourself more to self love, um, learning how to make your mind your friend rather than your adversary, you know, enjoying where you live, which is in your own body, in your own mind, in the present moment, which is where everything So, um, yeah. Uh, really happens, except, you know, we oftentimes get lost in past and future, which is a huge source of suffering.
and I think a lot of this is also just like to have more fun. How do we remember that it's not all so damn serious and that we're meant to come here to. Enjoy life and, and be connected to people and be connected to ourselves. And that everywhere that we experience suffering, that really is just the illusion of separation, but we're not actually separate.
And I feel [00:03:00] that more, you know, I feel like I've been experiencing that more, practicing all of this more through my own life experience as I go ever and ever deeper on my own spiritual path, which currently is being guided by my time here in Brazil, which is, whew, baby, it's been. I mean the most potent and magical and, um, just like alive and raw spiritual experience journey that I've been through, uh, I would say in the past couple of years, just because I'm living it.
I'm living the damn thing. So, and I would love to share this energy, this wisdom, this truth. with you. So if you are interested, you can find me on Instagram, send me an email, you know, it's really just the way that I had a client describe what I do is like, you know, she calls it spiritual therapy. It's, it's a combination of working [00:04:00] with our mind and our body.
Um, and just like, you know, my, my, my, As you have heard me probably say on this show, like what's in the way in your life is the way to, to liberation, to relief and relaxation and love and connection. And that to me is spiritual therapy. Um, and if you have any questions, I'm happy to chat. Okay. Let's get back to Emily because this episode is just so amazing.
She's amazing. Kylie specifically wanted to have her on the show because she's been really moved by Emily's work and writing on unhooking from productivity and perfectionism culture. Um, because she has this really, I mean, Emily has this really amazing, uh, newsletter that goes out that we, you know, we highly. Recommend that you subscribe to, but um, Emily currently is an advisor and consultant for entrepreneurs, which is just perfect considering her experience, her, her life path.
She's an author, she's an illustrator, and she is [00:05:00] formerly, she's the founder and formerly, uh, was working, you know, the founder of M and M and friends, which is, you know, a multimillion, um, dollar greeting card company. So, um, You've seen her work around somewhere before, you know, she's worked with some really big names.
Um, I remember, I think like her stuff was at Urban Outfitters at one point, I know that she's worked with Elizabeth Gilbert and a lot of her story and this, and this episode touches on that transition from like, you know, being in this liminal space of what do you do when your, maybe your identity, one identity is closing and there's a death, you know, and then, and that transition to rebirth and beginnings and newness.
And it's like, we've all been there before. I know I not too long ago, I was there. And that liminal space in any form of transition is actually a really potent space for, for huge [00:06:00] growth. Um, And so we touch on that. Um, we talk about quitting things and we talk about perimenopause, which I'm so happy that we get to talk about.
That was actually something that Emily herself said that she wanted to bring to the audience. And I was like, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes. Because I don't think we're having these conversations enough. And I think Emily is really just a wonderful model for someone who, um, for being a woman actually, who is taking this evolution process in really great stride.
And part of that is also talking about the difficulties that come with that. So if you like her work, if you like this show, you're going to love this episode. We hope you enjoy here's Emily McDowell. Hello, Emily. Thank you for joining us on Hello Universe.
We are so excited to have you.
Emily: Thank you so much for having me. I'm excited to be here. Yes.
Eva: So our first question for all of our guests is what is life [00:07:00] teaching you at the moment?
Emily: So right now life is teaching me and I feel like this is sort of a perpetual teaching of, um, to not jump to worst case scenario.
And
yesterday I was on, I just spent a week in California teaching and speaking, and I
was so sure I was going to miss my flight last night because it was 40 minutes to the airport and the plane was boarding in 30 and I had a bag to check and it was like, no, like, this is definitely not happening. And I was like, making all these contingency plans and, you know, and then.
This woman, my Lyft driver bless her, but also, um, she went real above and beyond in a way. Broke some laws, but she took some streets and she's like, speeding and going on cars. It was like fast in the Furious and she was like, I'm getting you there. And I was like, okay, but like, don't endanger yourself, . Um, but anyway, I ended up, I ended up walking in and making the flight and they, and they [00:08:00] gate checked my bag and they were super nice.
And it's such a, it's a small story, but this is a pattern for me, right. Of not assuming. Of assuming the worst outcome. Um, and it's something that I've been actively working on for years, you know, and I've been aware of about myself, but it's just interesting how insidious it is and how it, um, it causes so much stress that often is ultimately unnecessary.
Um, where like, you know, you can worry about it when it happens, but like, before it happens, it's just wasted energy and spending time being upset about something that like, maybe isn't even going to happen. So, that's
been
My perpetual lesson that was just, I was just reminded of again last night.
Kyley: I couldn't love this more in part because I had a whole long 20 minute conversation with a girlfriend this morning about this very thing.
So the universe, [00:09:00] no, but for real, could you knock it off?
Eva: Uh huh. I have this joke where every time I like, I worry about finances. My immediate thought is like, I'm going to be houseless. I just jumped to being homeless. It's amazing what the mind can do, but I think, I think the practice is being able to catch it because like you said, it's so insidious sometimes that we don't in when it's subtle.
We don't even know that we're doing it. And I think that's, that's where the tricky part is.
Emily: Totally. It's the catching it. Like, I mean, even I think asking people like, stop doing this feels like a really big ask when people are like, but this is literally like, not only this is how my brain works, but this is biologically how our brains are like, really conditioned to work because it's a whole survival thing and whatever.
But it's the catching it
that makes all the
difference. And so you spend 2 minutes there instead of 2 hours or 2 days. Um, and it's like just a practice, you know, you know,
Kyley: I, I also wrote down the [00:10:00] word insidious. I was really struck by that because I think that's exactly it. And also why it's our perpetual lesson is because it's like, uh, you, you master the level and the boss just gets sneakier.
Right, right, right.
And I'm curious to know, and actually I'm curious from both of you, um, because it can be so sneaky, this kind
of like worst case scenario, like over anxious, You know, churning mind, what are the ways that each of you have learned to, to like catch it for the horse runs away with the cart, so to speak.
Emily: I have spent several years doing different kinds of mindfulness training. Um, and that is really the key for me is basically practicing the process of separating myself from the thoughts so that I can notice the thoughts. And [00:11:00] instead of saying like to myself, like, I'm so anxious. I'm so anxious. It's I can go, I'm having the thought that I'm so anxious.
And then I can go, I noticed myself having the thought that I'm so anxious. And just that process of being able to separate the you from the feeling and being able to sort of become that neutral observer
is
really helpful for me in terms of like not spinning out or spiraling. Um, on something, so that's really like, that's what that, what that training also, it's something I'm, I'm doing.
It's interesting because it's also a part of the, I'm doing Martha Beck's coaching training right now and I'm graduating in July. And that's something that very early on. She addressed in the training too. And I was like, yep, this is the thing. Like, this is really, um, this is a, this is super helpful. Um, so that's me.
I don't know. Eva, what do you think?
Eva: Oh, I I'm just so glad [00:12:00] you mentioned mindfulness because that's, that's so much my jam. So. I'm a meditation teacher and I'm also really big into Byron Katie's, the work, which I think if you're Martha Beck's, uh, training, you, you know, yes, yes, yes. So I have friends who've done that training and it's supposed to be amazing.
And, um, Byron Katie, I mean, that's actually what we, this, this retreat space here is we run the work retreats here. And so, yeah, yes. And, um, I'm really, I went with someone, with a facilitator of the work. Um, And so much I think of what I have learned is the quote that comes to mind is like the noticing of a negative is the greatest positive it's because it's like once I and I noticed the negative meaning it shows up as suffering like if I am suffering and if there's tension there that's like a really kind I like to see it as kind alarm bell for like I must be thinking something that isn't that is positive Unaligned with reality and so then when that's where the catching happens, it's like, [00:13:00] well, I'm obviously suffering over something.
And I think, you know, Byron Katie's, the work is really about like, let's really look at it. Like, just, just look at it square in the face and see if it's true. And I think the looking at it comes from taking just a pause, like, yes. And I, and I want to speak about this pause because for so many years I have had this story of like, Oh, it's hard.
Like personal development is hard and it's, it's so much hard work, but I actually think we're so, we don't give ourselves enough credit. Like if it just takes a little bit of awareness, like if we just take like one minute really, even to just like, you know, come into our bodies a little bit and look, I think we would find that it actually doesn't need to be that hard.
And I think that's an important story to, to like. To spin it because, because, you know, the story of like, it has to be hard, I think just makes it so that we don't do it, but I think we're, we're actually so much more intelligent than we give ourselves credit for, you know? Yeah.
Emily: Yeah. [00:14:00] I think that's, I think that's totally right.
I mean, that pauses that is the space for response instead of reaction. Right. And like, yes, that's, that's so key to even, and that's a, that's a thing that the challenge is in like practicing it, but it's actually easy. To, like, kind of understand that and learn it and start applying it. Um, you know, the challenge comes in where, like, it's just, you know, When you're really triggered to be able to do that and to be able to say, and like, but like, Hey, life gives us a million opportunities to practice it.
So like
Kyley: question mark.
Emily: Um, but, but yeah, I love, I love the idea that like, I was just kind of. Breaking down that idea that it has to be really hard and then it's like this really like difficult slogging long work. Yes.
Eva: Yes. Like, what if it got to be [00:15:00] useful, you know, yeah, just because it just takes like a little bit of awareness.
But even as I say this, I just want to like, I don't want to. You know, misrepresent, like my power went out this morning and I just immediately went to, Oh, my whole day is fucked, you know, like I also, I was also still doing that. So like you said, life, because it's generous will give us a million opportunities to practice.
Yeah. Yeah. I'm really struck
Kyley: by, um, the, something that you said, Emily, around, like, trying to get it to stop, right? When our, like, mind is doing, it's like, whole, you know, the world is on fire and nobody likes you and, you know, um, all of that. And how much For so long, my go to the, like the best tool I had was either to like run away and hide and distract myself or just like kind of yell at that voice.
Right. You just be like, stop. Like, that's not true. Right. And, and, uh, Eckhart Tolle has, uh, a really great anecdote in the beginning of, um, a new earth where he talks [00:16:00] about, like, he talks about how actually it's totally crazy to just be like arguing with yourself. Right. That, that is actually, that's actually kind of an insane thing to do.
Um, and. Yeah, and I'm just struck by how both of those, so surrender has been really big medicine in my life these past, these past couple of months, especially, and I'm struck by how both the part of me who wants to run away from my overanxious mind, or the part of me who just, like, wants her to cut the shit.
Is really trying to control and the beauty of the noticing that you guys are both articulating is that there's an allowing, right? And so there's just like, oh, oh, hi, worry. Hi. Worst case scenario. And, um, to the, your point of like, it's always the same. I'm always learning the same thing. It's like, once again, the reminder that.
The allowing is softer that witnessing is the compassion, right? That the [00:17:00] relief that you're looking for always happens when we gently and lovingly turn towards instead of away from the thing. Yeah. And I'm just struck by like, as someone who had a, you know, chronic anxiety condition her whole twenties and postpartum anxiety with her, with my eldest and all of those things like, Oh, I was just trying so hard to just control and get it to stop.
And the biggest gift has been, Oh, you can live here too. And now it doesn't run my life. It's there, but it doesn't run my life anymore.
Emily: Yeah. It's that compassion, right? It's that bringing in that compassion and saying like, Oh, I see you. Like for me, it's like, I see what you're trying to do. Like, I thank you for trying to protect me.
You know, I don't, I don't need you to do that right now. But like, if you want to be here, that's cool. And like, really, I think we're, I think we get conditioned to do, to try to push it all away. I mean, like you were saying, you know, right? [00:18:00] Like, that make it stop is, is this idea that, that most of us. End up with of like, Oh, I have this thought that I don't want, or I have this feeling that I don't want, like, how do I make it, how do I get out and get rid of it and just like make it go away.
And it's kind of like the harder you push on it, the less effective it is.
Eva: Yeah.
Emily: So
Eva: yeah, where, where there's force, there's resistance. It's like force and you're just met with immediate resistance. And so anyway, it's good to see, good to notice.
Kyley: Can I ask a very vulnerable question that everyone might hate and we can just edit it out.
Um, I'm curious in the vein of what's like teaching you right now, I'm curious. What's the thing that you are finding yourself wanting to make go away right now?
Emily: Yeah, let's just go for it. No, this is a great question. I love it. Like I'm happy to talk about that.
Kyley: Um,
Emily: I have had my whole life, a story that work has to be [00:19:00] hard. And that has to be something that you devote a massive amount of time to that takes, that takes from you. Um, and that is like, you know, it's like if you want to, if you want that success equals like hard work and sacrifice and all of these things.
And I worked for 20 years, I had 80 hour weeks for 20 years. Um, and I am now in a place where like, I physically can't do it anymore. Like I have, you know, autoimmune disease. And I have like a thing in my neck where I can't look at a computer for more than like three hours at a time after bending over at a laptop for 20 years and, you know, working in bed and working, like having zero ergonomics, like I might as well have been like hanging off a building, you know, like I have to have like a desk and like, like anyway.
And so it's a story that, like, work has to be really hard. And now I'm in a place where I'm totally reimagining my career. I've, I've closed a big, big, big [00:20:00] chapter, um, where I sold a company that I, um, founded in 2012 that was named after me and that was like, very much intertwined with my identity. And now I'm looking at.
A future where I'm not, I'm, I'm starting to do some things and, and coaching and consulting and things like that. But, um, really not sure where things are going to go
and
can't retire. And so it's like, okay, like, what, how am I going to totally reimagine my relationship with work and how am I going to so much of it is less about.
What the actual thing is and more about what my attitude is towards it and more about what my thinking and that's where I'm trying to that's where my work is, is in like, is in reimagining my relation, what the role is of work in my life, what my assumptions are about work. What, like, all of that kind of deconstructing, um, and, uh, and [00:21:00] trying to push away, you know, or, or pushing up against that voice.
That's like, you have to do this. You have to do that. You have to work this much. You have to like, and I'm kind of like, well, do I, you know, like, let's, let's explore that. But it's definitely been. It's been activating for me for sure. Yeah.
Kyley: Oh,
okay. I'm
Emily: so glad we got here
Kyley: because this is, I've loved your work for years.
I have, you know, I've been following you. I've loved your work for a really long time and I am obsessed with the writing that you have been doing lately about this very topic. Like it's like right to my overachiever's heart and soul. Um, so if listeners don't already subscribe and follow you and all the things and get your writing, they should go do that immediately.
But, um, because I have found there's just this really beautiful vulnerability that you're sharing about like, yeah, I had this incredible success and it was killing me. And, and, and, uh, It's just, I mean, she changes scary and specifically like peeling off all that [00:22:00] conditioning, right? Why do we work 80 hours a week?
Because we think it's going to like, because there's something we're safety seeking. Right? And so like. I, I would just love to, um, I don't even know if I have a specific question other than like delight. They're like, yeah, we got here early in the show.
Eva: Yeah. We just have you talk, talk about that
Emily: process too, you know, I think, I think, yeah, well, it's like that feeling, you know, the same thing you just said safety and that's exactly what it is.
Right. It's that, it's that my nervous system. And it's changing and it's really changing. And it's changed so much in the last few years due to the work that I've done on this, but it's like, you know, my system, my, my body didn't feel safe. It didn't feel safe in my body to not be producing, to not be working, to not be earning money, to not be like, you know, It was like, it was a way that, um, yeah, it was a, it was a way it was a control, right?
Like, it's like, we were just talking about, like, it was a way for me to feel like I had control if I'm, if I'm, [00:23:00] and, and if I'm outputting and doing and making and, and being,
um,
and it's interesting because it was so much less about for a lot of people, I think. It's about wanting the striving is about wanting, like, recognition and wanting, um, you know, wanting this specific idea of success.
That's like, um, fame or like being on TV or like, whatever, whatever it is. Right. And I had a bunch of that. I mean, in my very second book. Right. Like you can only be so famous as a greeting card company owner, but I feel like it's like, you really didn't nail that
Kyley: market though. Yeah. I was going to say, I think you did pretty
Emily: good.
So it was like this very specific, like G list fame. Right. But I had a big following and I had like all the things and I actually kind of hated it. Um, because I'm an introvert and I was like, like, it just wasn't aligned. And I thought that this was like what I was supposed to want. And I thought that, you know, all of these things.
Um, [00:24:00] But my so I wasn't really driven by, like, I want this kind of success. It was really what I was really being driven by was, like, this feeling of my nervous system seeking safety. And I thought that I would find it. In or I did, it was also like, I was raised in a really chaotic environment and I was raised in my nervous system was like, constantly activated.
I was in fight or flight all the time. And so, like, when that happens, fight or flight feel like you're the brain seeks safety and there are the sorry. The brain seeks familiarity. Like, it really likes what's familiar, even if what's familiar feels like garbage,
there
is like a thing that happens where you feel it over and over and over again.
And biologically, the, your brain is like, okay, cool. I understand this state. I know what it's like to be here. And so this feels safe, even if it doesn't feel good. Like, and so it's like, you will, you [00:25:00] know, at least like, you, you continue to seek those things out and to create them in your life. If that's where your baseline is.
And that's what I was doing. I mean, I did that for 40 years. Um, and eventually I got to a place where I was like, this, this whole thing sucks. I don't want to do this anymore. I don't want to feel this way anymore. I don't want to, like, I don't want, I need to retrain. And also like, I'm sick. Like I've made myself actually, you know, made myself, but I've, as a result of a lot of stress and also other things that are beyond my control, like I, I am now a person who is, has chronic illness.
And so like, Shit. You know, like I can't do it anymore. Um, and anyway, I think that so, so much of my stuff was driven by this need for this desire for what my nervous system recognized as safety.
Kyley: Yeah.
Eva: Oh, I mean, you're just
Kyley: speaking my love language. Yeah,
Eva: speaking both of our language because like this is, yeah, this is a huge part of I think of both of our work, especially for [00:26:00] me.
I'm the same. It's, it's. The seeking of safety, like growing up in an unsafe environment and, and almost feeling like I've noticed when I really pay attention, it's, there's hysteria when I feel like I'm not safe. And so the, the, any kind of control, give me the illusion of safety. And it sounds like you found out though, that it wasn't illusion.
It didn't really seem to work. And so absolutely. Yeah. It took
Emily: a while, but like eventually did figure that out. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.
Kyley: I have, I have a question. I mean, I'm struck also by the way, I think our, that kind of, Safety seeking nervous system shit that you're talking to. Um, also has this illusion that like, you'll get somewhere, right?
There's such a seeking energy that like the relief is around the corner, right? The actual safe, you have to keep running because there is some promise of safety, but it's always the goalpost is always moving. And so we're always seeking and we're always kind of re upping on the, um, you know, panic mode or whatever.[00:27:00]
I think 1 of the things that I find in the eternal deconditioning is, um, that moment that, like, when you're in that transition or rewiring, which again is, I think, just, we're always going deeper in it from, you know, panic or fear or anxiety into like a more spacious, Oh, what if I was safe? Um, what if I wasn't doing, what if it was okay to just sit still?
Um, There's, there's such, there's that moment in between that's like this liminal space where it's like you haven't fully rewired, right? You have to like, step out onto the unknown of like, no, no, no, we're not going to do that. Frantic doing and also our body is a little bit scared, like we're creating an edge and, and then we sit in that edge and then the safety, it expands.
And one of the things that I notice is hard for me [00:28:00] is how much I want to fill that space, right? Like, so for years on my calendar, my one on one clients and the courses that I teach are three weeks on one week off. Naturally, it seems like that's set up so that a girl has a week off to like, I don't know, get a massage or like do her deeper creative work or no, I just fill it with more shit.
I never have managed in years, right? I never managed to actually like sync up everyone's off weeks. And finally I just asked my team, I was like, can you be my calendar bouncer? Because I need to like, actually I set this in place four years ago and I never have used it. Which to me obviously indicates because my body did not, my body was like, no, no, let's stay busy.
Um, but I, I think that's so common and, and I'm curious how, I think I'm kind of asking how each of you have found to resource yourself to like actually honor the, like, don't pick up your phone. Don't overschedule in that stretching into a new [00:29:00] territory. Does that question make sense?
Yeah, I think so. Yeah.
That makes
sense. Mm-Hmm. . Yeah. So
Emily: I'm trying to think of how I, of like, it's just baby tiny steps.
Mm-Hmm. ,
like, it's not a sexy answer, you know, , um, at least like that's been my experience is
baby tiny steps and really self-honoring. I think that that's a, that for me, you know, Instagram really loves to say like, love yourself and like, I think that. So many of us are like, cool, I'm on board, but like, What does that even mean? Like, what does it mean to love yourself? What does it mean? Like, what does that even look like?
And there are some parts of it that are obvious that are like, or that more obvious, right? That are like, well, don't be a dick to yourself. Like don't talk. Don't, don't like, you know, don't put yourself down. Don't like that, [00:30:00] that feel like, okay, those yes. But then there's also so much more about don't abandon yourself.
Like, And honoring, honoring you. So putting your own, when you have the option, like putting your, really getting clear on like what your needs are and being what we have been conditioned to believe is selfish. Um, and that selfishness is the idea of selfishness is like, especially as women in our culture is like, Oh God, like, no, anything, but being selfish.
I don't want to be selfish. Like being a self being selfish is bad. And actually like being selfish. Self honoring is necessary. Um, And in order to be, uh, also better in terms of showing up in your relationships and doing the things that are considered unselfish, like, if you are constantly not, you [00:31:00] know, upholding your own boundaries, if you're like, yes, I want to keep this calendar week free, I want to, you know, this is what I really want, it's important to me, and then you are like, oh, but I'm going to just take on this and take on this and take on this, like, you are, you're abandoning you, In service of what other people want from you or what other people want for you and ultimately like that, that kind of a, that kind of a, that kind of a thing just leads to resentment and it leads to, you know, like, it's a, it's so anyway, I'm, I'm, this is like a really rambling answer, but
Kyley: it's gorgeous.
Emily: Keep going. But so it's for me, it's like these baby, it's like taking really baby steps and not. And like, what I think about all the time is like, also that healing isn't linear and people say that. And it's also like, well, what does that mean? And for me, what it means is like, I have had now enough experiences with this and I've [00:32:00] been doing kind of like person, my personal work, quote, unquote, since 2010 and.
Meaning like you can like chip away at something and like, work, work on this one thing forever for, you know, years, and it can feel like you're not getting anywhere. It can feel like, oh, my God, this again, I cannot believe that I'm still here. I can't believe it. I can't believe it. And then like, 1 day, it's like gone, like you deal with it for the last time and you don't know when you're doing it that it's going to be for the last time.
But like, It actually, it's happened to me now enough times that I'm like, Oh, this actually can happen this way. And I think about it like when you're boiling a pot of water and from the outside, it looks like nothing is happening. You know, the water can be 211 degrees and it just looks the same as it did when it was cold.
But then it's that last degree and then all of a sudden everything changes and it's boiling and it's in a new form. And I [00:33:00] think that that's something like that I always try to keep in mind with this kind of work is that like, sometimes it's. It feels like it's not visible, and it feels like nothing is happening, but something is happening.
Um, and so just kind of keeping that keeping that there, you know, while you're making your small steps and feeling like. I don't know. Maybe this isn't, you know, maybe I'm frustrated. Maybe this isn't doing anything. Um, so yeah, so that's my, that's my 2 cents, 4 cents on my hashtag.
Kyley: Listeners, I'm crying. Yeah, what's coming up for you, Kylie?
Is she saying that? I did not know. That's what I needed to hear. But, um. So, uh, a couple, um, five, six months ago, my best friend and business partner bailed and wouldn't have any conversations with me about why she was bailing or how to, you know, maybe do something differently. So I have been in the, like, depths of heartbreak for, you know, five and a half months [00:34:00] and, um.
This full story is coming listeners. I'm almost ready. I mean, this is a
Eva: sneak
Kyley: peek.
Eva: The
Kyley: fact
Eva: that you're speaking to it, I think is,
Kyley: yeah. And Eva knows because she's been lovingly reminded. I'm reaching the point, um, of this particular chapter where. I'm just fucking pissed that I'm still in this chapter.
Right? Like, you know, that moment when you're like, I don't want to be upset. I don't want to be crying about this anymore. Right? I don't want to be upset anymore. And, um, and, and what I was a couple of things that I was receiving as you were saying, especially the idea, like, it takes, you know, the, the, the, that water boiling metaphor and everything is like, Um, that it's just going to arrive this moment that I, I know it exists, right?
This moment where I will wake up and I will, I, a whole day will pass without it even crossing my mind. Um, and so I don't have to worry and I don't have to effort and I don't have to keep like digging for how to [00:35:00] like, get over and move on because the water, like the, the, the water's already boiling, the flame is already lit.
Right. And, um, and so there's like a real, compassion that came in that. He has been trying to offer me for weeks and I've been like, mostly just like punching that part of it. Um, um, yeah, there was another piece that's floated away, but, um, and now to, again, to like the nervous system, it was like, my body just received something, right.
It was just like, Oh, my body just needed that reminder in that particular. Cadence of words that, um, not just that it takes the time that it takes, but also that once, once you step onto the course, I think there's a kind of inevitability to, right. Once you sign up to, you know, a self love journey, um, there's, there's, it's in the outcome is inevitable.
It won't look the way you think it will. Right. But it's like, I do find like, [00:36:00] we are always carrying ourselves. Along the path, you know, um,
Eva: yeah, and that maybe, you know, could it be that we're already doing it? We just don't necessarily give ourselves credit for the fact that we're doing that it's happening.
It's just not necessarily happening at the speed in which we would like because life is telling us that it's really urgent. You know, right. And in
Kyley: that urgency to go back to the like, worst case scenario is the urgency. Like, why is there a part of me who's like, Oh, I'm still here. I mean, one, cause I'm better because someone else just moved on, but two, because, uh, there's a part of me that's afraid that I'll never get over it.
Right. Like, why else would I be so afraid that it has to happen immediately? Because, you know, uh,
Eva: future because we're living in the future. I think that's a really good point. Cause that's where so much of the suffering comes from. Yeah.
Emily: And yeah, sorry. Go ahead.
Eva: Well, I wanted to add to what you were saying, Emily, and for your question, Kylie, about like, how do we not keep, you know, we're in this space of like, it's a, it's kind of a liminal space and how do we not keep adding [00:37:00] to things?
And I just love everything that you said, Emily. And I feel like, and then, and then I had another thing that came in that was unexpected because it's going a different direction, but, you know, having options, I think is helpful. And I think the thing that really, you know, I haven't mastered this yet, but I know that when I am feeling really connected, Like there was times when I just feel like I'm living a very connected, embodied, soulful life that's connected to God.
And for me, a huge piece of that is like nature. Like that's what came into me. It was like, like when I, for me, it's nature and for, and it could be like dance or art or something, but there's this aliveness that I feel that is like telling me the truth when I'm doing it. And like nature, I go into nature and I'm just, she's like, Hey baby girl, This is all good.
Like she whispers something to me that I think my body already knows. And it's like a rewiring of something where I'm like, I don't have to try to not fill my time with the stuff. It's [00:38:00] like, it's just this wisdom of, you know, when you're really connected. I think that's like the only way that I can describe it.
And I think nature and the things that get me into my body are, are amazing. Are for me a really helpful tool, I guess you could say, or solution, or maybe even a way of being that just connect me with myself.
Emily: I
think that's beautiful. And I, that's, I, that resonates with me too, for sure. For sure. Being, and it's also just being, like, we have this fixation in our culture about, like, I need to Do I need to, I need to do something to, to get my way out, to find my way out of this, right?
Like I'm in this space where, um, something really big just happened and my identity has really shifted as a result. And my reality has shifted as a result and this doesn't feel good. I don't want to be here. I want to be in a different place. Like, I want to know what's going on. I want to, you know, I want to be healed or doing what's next.
And. That's it doesn't [00:39:00] work to do that. Like that. There is like a, that there is kind of like a dissolving that actually just spending time in that space without trying to fight your way out is the medicine and like. I read this. This is so interesting. So, like, most people know, you know, when a butterfly I'm going to do the butterfly thing, but there's something a piece about it that I didn't know.
So, when the butterfly changes into a caterpillar, it goes into the cocoon and it turns into goo. Like, it completely dissolves. It's a non thing. It becomes like a nothing animal, um, before it reforms as a caterpillar or as a butterfly. Sorry. But what I didn't know is that if you come along, if someone comes along and sees a butterfly trying to get out of the cocoon and tries to, like, help it by, like, cutting it open or, like, kind of helping it out, like, oh, like, let me, let me help you, the butterfly will die because the butterfly needs that, its own [00:40:00] struggle.
And it needs whatever time it takes. Like that's what sort of kind of strengthens it and allows it to emerge on its own time. And so there isn't, I love that metaphor just in terms of like thinking about all the things that we do to try to like push ourselves out and like speed ourselves along and like help ourselves be different when honestly, you know, so much of what we need is like.
Just time, um, and that and that it isn't linear and that there are some days where you're going to feel like you're kind of moving forward and reassembling into some sort of, you know, recognizable form and then the next day, it feels like a step backwards and then you're like, what am I doing? And this is period of questioning and like, oh, I'm sad again.
And if this is. You know, it's grief too. And so it's like allowing yourself to feel grief and allowing yourself to [00:41:00] just exist. Where you are, trust that you won't be there forever, which is really hard to do when you're in the moment. It really is. But it's also like, it's the, this is the, you know, the cycle of change that happens anytime there's a change, you know, like there is you, we don't know how long you'll be there, but it won't be forever.
And just, um, but that, that suffering really comes from trying to fight your way out before it's time.
Kyley: Yeah. Before you're ready. Yeah. I love this metaphor. I use it all the time in my teaching. So you're like really reinforcing like, are you listening Caldwell? Um, but what I'm struck by too, is that 1 of the reasons people go along and try to cut the butterfly out is because it looks like this butterfly struggling, right?
Because it's like flapping its wings. And what's landing for me right now is, um, That, okay, like using [00:42:00] myself as an example, since I already threw that out there, like, I am in this place where like, okay, I'm no longer Caterpillar Goo. And also I am definitely in the like, flapping my fucking wings and pissed that I'm still kind of tethered to this cocoon moment.
And there is some struggle. What if struggle wasn't suffering, right? Why does struggle become suffering? Because we make this meaning that I'll never get out of here. I shouldn't be here. You know, whatever meanings we want to make. But if. The quote, unquote, struggle of flapping your wings to build up the very resilience to fly from Maine to Mexico.
What if it wasn't suffering? What if it was, what if it just was, um, so I'm going to tuck that in. I'll report back from my beach in Mexico.
Eva: Yeah. Well, and I'm wondering, Emily, if you have more to say, cause I think it sounds like, and I think you spoke to this a little bit, even before we started recording it, just that. Would you say that you're in a liminal space at the moment?
Emily: I would say that I
am,
I am, I've been in a [00:43:00] very major liminal space that I'm coming, that I'm now feeling like I'm coming out.
I mean, the, the, so for, from 2020 until really the, really last year, kind of like fourth quarter of last year, third quarter of last year, I was in a space of like really deep burnout and really deep change, meaning. I was letting go, I was in, I had a very long process of letting go of this, of this company, this brand, this job, this thing that had been like, kind of my whole identity in life, um, for many years and I have always been a person who's been really creatively inspired and who's always like, we were saying, just output and ideas.
And I have, and I was really, I felt really creatively bankrupt for 3 years. And that was a really long time [00:44:00] to feel like this. Big piece of who I am and who I've always been. And something that I really like love about myself seems to be, it's just not here, you know, and I don't know when it's coming back or I don't know if it's coming back or I don't know, you know, what it's going to look like on the other side of this and.
Um, I started just in my own process, um, my friend Holly Whitaker and I did a podcast in 2021 called quitted. That was about, it was interviews with people talking to people who have quit a really something that was a significant piece of their identity. So walking away from something that it could have been like a career, but also it could have been, you know, it was like a religion or.
Um, someone who, you know, coming out or, or moving out of the country, or just something that was something that they, that was very them and that they, and that they let go of and in doing that and in, and in sort of researching and reading [00:45:00] all the books and doing all the things for this, for this project, I started getting really interested in.
The change cycle, um, what Martha Beck calls the change cycle, which is also called, you know, what people call it all kinds of things. Transitions, just transitions and how we, or
Eva: we, I think we refer to often here is the death and rebirth cycle
Emily: rebirth, um, death and rebirth cycle, and that we have this, like, or just our culture teaches us that life is supposed to be like a linear line that goes up into the right.
And that, like, everything builds on each other and that, like, you're supposed to be, you know, the older you get, it's like, the more success you have, the more money you make, the more, like, the, the smarter you get, the more, like, all of these things that are just supposed to be, it's sort of like, if you graphed it, it would be like a line that's like perpetually up and to the right and that that's not how life works at all.
You know, and
that and that we think of these and that all the research shows that, like, we think of these disruptive events as like aberrations, like, life is [00:46:00] normal life just goes along. And then we have an event. And then we get back on course, and then we keep going. Um, and that actually. Often like we are more often than not in some space of transition at some point, like in, in some aspect of our lives, almost all the time.
And that the transition is not an aberration. Like this is literally what life is. And it's, and so like. The more that we can sort of get that, like, it's like thinking about suffering and like lessening our own suffering. It's like, it's like accepting coming to like, accept that change is life. It's not just like change as part of life or changes, you know, that this is that like, we are in a constant kind of state of change and that the death and rebirth cycle, like you can't have rebirth without death.
That
like, we can't just keep, you don't just keep growing and growing and like, nature doesn't, nature isn't in perpetual spring. Like, Winter exists [00:47:00] for a reason
and
our personal winters exist for a reason. And, and it's, we need that time to like internally regroup. We need things, we need old things to die so that new things can be born.
And also just like, so that we can, like, it's also like that there doesn't have to be a lesson in everything, you know, it's like old things to die so that new things can be born. And also sometimes old things just die. And like, we will, and we will move forward, um, no matter what, like it will happen, but like, that there isn't that there doesn't have to be like a rising from the ashes and everything.
It's just sometimes like you, sometimes there isn't and that's also okay. Um, I love
Eva: that. I love that there doesn't always have to be. I mean, it's great when there is and
Emily: right when there is, but like there doesn't have to be
Eva: anyway.
Emily: Yeah.
Eva: Yeah. It doesn't mean that there's something wrong. [00:48:00] And I think that's, that's an issue that I always have.
I want to always have like the nice tidy story where like, yeah, I went through this death process, but it's okay because then there's this rebirth and there's this really lovely story of redemption or healing or something. But also I think there's some humility, I don't know. And also some beautiful acceptance.
And maybe like actually dancing more with life when I'm just like, well, actually, there doesn't have to be. I think for me, I put pressure on it. Like, oh, how can I also make this a teachable moment? Like, that's something that comes up in my work a lot. And it's like, when I look at that, actually, there's something just something, something funny about it, but it's nice to take the pressure off of that and be like, well, what if this is just me dancing with life and it doesn't have to be for anybody else or for any fucking reason, because maybe there is.
Right. Sometimes there's no reason.
Kyley: Yeah. Yeah. I mean, I'm, I think a couple of things that come up for me is this idea that our, our obsession with making meaning out of things is directly tied to our suffering, right? Because meaning is narrative. Meaning is control. Meaning like brings us, I use the metaphor of like the going underneath the ocean a [00:49:00] lot, like meaning is the like churn at the top of the ocean, right?
Where experience is maybe that we're ugly crying or maybe that we're dancing or maybe that we're doing both the exact same time. And that happens. Yeah. When we just sink, when we just give fewer shits about the lesson and the meaning and the, I got to rise from the ashes, I got to make a narrative out of this.
There is, I think it's really unnerving. And also there's something so freeing in, I don't know, sometimes I want to write a book called optimistic nihilism. Like what's the possibility that we give ourselves when everything doesn't have to mean anything. And so,
Emily: yeah. Yeah, I mean, that, that meaninglessness is actually that there's, there's gifts in that.
And there's gifts in having an experience just for the experience. Like we don't have to make a story out of it. It doesn't have to mean anything. It doesn't. And like often, often it's just, it feels like because we are so [00:50:00] culturally conditioned to make meaning out of everything, when things are meaningless, sometimes it feels like we've done something wrong or like we didn't learn the thing we were supposed to learn or like, was this all for nothing?
And all of that I think is really, can be really damaging. And, and, um, it often. You know, often there are lessons and often there are, sometimes it's just, there aren't, you know, and that, that accepting that and accepting that meaninglessness is, is also a part of life sometimes. Versus trying to, like, force yourself to squeeze a story out of every single thing, um, I think is one of the kindest things that we can do for ourselves.
Eva: Yeah, and I would, and I would add to that, though, that I think, again, the subtle difference is, like, is it, is it because the meaninglessness can actually add to, like, you're talking about Kylie Nealism or like a hopelessness. And I think it's so, it's like a fine line. There's [00:51:00] meaninglessness that can make you think, well, what's the fucking point?
or there's meaninglessness that can be completely liberating. It's like, you know, it's really all about perspective. And so, yeah, that's, I don't know. I think that's just an interesting thing to, to look at. And I think we get to choose, you know, that path. Yeah.
Emily: It can, it can be fun. Like meaningless can be, I think that that's like, I think there's also like this idea that meaningless is a, is a bad word.
Like, it's like, Oh, like it means nihilism and it means, but also it can be really liberating. Like you just said, right? Like you can, can mean it can, I can just
Eva: live my fucking life, you know?
Emily: So yeah, totally. That's a great, that's a great distinction.
Eva: Yeah. Yeah. I'm actually wondering if you could talk about quitting.
This is actually a really interesting. Subject for me, because You know, uh, it can be a tricky thing. There's a lot of shame. I think that comes up the quitting, but it [00:52:00] sounds like you've really worked with people and actually work with yourself in a way of um, maybe embracing that in a different way. I love
Emily: quitting.
I love quitting and I love challenging this cultural narrative that like, uh, that persistence is always a virtue. We have this like, and I think it's from Puritan, like, I think it's actually left over from like Puritanical, like work ethic and like these, these principles that the state, the United States were founded on of this, like, hard work, perseverance, you know, never give up Rocky, like all of these myths and are like mythology, like super strong cultural mythology that is about the virtue of perseverance.
And
I'm. I think that there is a place and a time for that. Like, I'm not saying don't ever persevere and just give up on shit. Like, that's not what I'm saying, but I think that we've gone so hard in that direction that people stay, we change all the time. [00:53:00] And like the human condition is to, is to change.
And so to stay in something that is the result of a choice that you made years and years ago, that it no longer serves you, or that's no longer aligned with who you are. For the sake of persevering, you know, or hurting yourself, or there's just, or this idea that, like, if I give up, I'm disappointing myself.
I'm disappointing other people. I'm disappointed, you know, like, I think that all of that kind of combines to, you know, it all leads to people being afraid to walk away from something that is not
Um, and there's, there's, we just have so much baggage around that and like, yeah, I will say that like the biggest changes in my life have not come when I've started doing something, but they've been from the things I've
Eva: stopped doing. But the question is, how does one know when to quit? I'm sure that's a question you get all the time, right?
It's like, yeah, I mean,
Emily: [00:54:00] how do you know? Because, well, yeah. I mean, I think part of it, like, often it's not, often there isn't like a logic, if it's something that you are, okay, so if it's, if, if you're like this question of when to quit, like, when do I, when do I walk away from this thing? How do I know? Logic isn't going to give you the answer.
Because I'm sure you've been pros and like, you can make pro and con lists all day long and you can like do all that. And like, logic is super useful, but when there's something that you have this kind of emotional, if you didn't have this degree of emotional connection to it, right. It would be a fairly simple answer.
You could solve it with a pro and con list of like, do I want to, I keep doing this or not? Like, well, let's look at the facts, but if there's something that like, you know, you get into like, well, I've put so much into this thing. Right, like, which is also like the sunk cost argument that like, I've put so much in, like, [00:55:00] I might as well finish it or I might as well.
I'm so close to getting this degree. I only have 2 more years. I might as well just do it or like, I'm going to get my pension in 3 years. I might as well just stay in this job or, you know, there is, there is, um. The component that like, I think is really critical in that decision making is being able to check in with your body and that's a hard thing for a lot of people to do.
It was really like, it was very hard for me. It took me. A long time to figure out actually how to access my own intuition because it was so buried under like fear and beliefs about what I should and should not be doing. And, you know, and so I am, I am the first person to say, like, if you can't, if you feel like you can't access your body very easily, like I hear you and you're not alone.
Um, and the work that I have done that's allowed me like the, like, which is like a combination of. [00:56:00] Breath work and therapy and all, like all kinds of different modalities that have, that have helped me unlock my own intuition and my own sort of body sensations, um, have been so critical in helping me learn how to make better decisions that are better for me.
And so it really like, for me, it's like about when the pro con list doesn't really help. It's like trying it on in your body and saying, and, and, and saying like, Pretending that you've gone one way and really believing like you create, you know, create a scenario in your mind of like, I've made this decision.
I am, you know, this thing is done. It's closed. I am, you know, down the road. I am whatever. How does that feel? And
then how does it
feel in your body to go the other way? And really kind of paying attention to the nervous system response of each of the options. And [00:57:00] allow it and like letting that be actionable information.
Eva: Yes, yes, yes. Thank you for just that reminder. Cause I, yes, going back to the body, which is, I think a huge source of wisdom, which even, which I forget because. I want it. It's part, there's a part of me that's stubborn and wants it to be logical because of the control piece. And it just feels safer, but yeah, I
Emily: mean, I fought it for, you know, most of my life was like, no, the body like, but you know, like there was the time in which I would have heard that and been like, cool, I guess that's great for you, but like,
very much. There are, but there are so many decisions that we make where. Logic doesn't logic actually doesn't really help like, or there isn't a clear conclusion.
Eva: Or I would even, I would even say maybe it's, it's harmful just to live completely just by logic.
Emily: [00:58:00] Exactly. It goes counter. It actually, it actually goes counter to what we actually authentically want
inside
is applying.
I mean, and I did that for years. It's just applying logical decision, overriding, overriding what my body was telling me, using logic to override that. Um, which. Ultimately was really harmful.
Kyley: I love this and I'm, I'm laughing because you know, like any good entrepreneur, I quit or got fired from like every fucking job forever.
Right. Um, and, um, and, and it's interesting because that was, it was always a very emotional decision for me and not always necessarily like reactive emotionally, which is like I would know when I would. Get to the place where it was like, I'm fucking done here. Like, I, you know, like job hunting started tomorrow cause I'm just done.
And, um, or like places where I would anyways, um, one time I was going to quit and I got offered a promotion and I remember that moment really clearly because. [00:59:00] Um, I remember how much my body was like, Oh yeah, like take the promotion, which was surprising to me cause I'd wanted to get out of the job so much.
Um, Meaning, which I offer because I actually have, I'm, I always make decisions emotionally and from my body and like, I, it's confusing to me that someone would use logic. My poor husband, the most logical person. Um, and so, so I want to offer that if you are someone who would like to be able to kind of like trust your body and emotions when it comes to making decisions, more about like what to say yes to what to say no to, I think one of the really important pieces is cultivating it in small ways, like basically that moment with that job that I mentioned, um, which ultimately I ended up being a.
That job was to be a sales director for a team of 25, which was bonkers. And I basically learned how to be a coach then. It was just like real time coaching all the time. And so it was prep for then they fired me and I started doing this. Um, um, [01:00:00] but I didn't know any of those, I didn't really get all that yet.
But I think one of the, the reason I knew was that I knew what yes felt like in my body. And so when it showed up, I knew I was like, I'm going to make the pros and cons list so the people around me can like review it for their own benefit. But I know. What yes feels like in my body and I know that I have to trust that because it will take care of me and I think sometimes we don't walk around like if we are totally disconnected from that we don't have that in the small moments and so then all of a sudden we're trying to make these huge life changing decisions, but we don't have a relationship with our internal yes and no.
And so. If you're listening and you're resonating with this, I would just really strongly offer you to start practicing. What does yes and no feel like about like buying a fucking cup of coffee today? And just notice, like in the small scale, like I have to make a decision about going to this party. Yes or no?
Like just what [01:01:00] is, what, what does yes feel like? What does no feel like? And then as you start to, uh, Cultivate that in a small scale. Then I think you have a relationship with that sacred yes and no. So when it becomes like game time decision, you're not having to like very well, it's like, I just got a metaphor.
Um, of like, you know, it's the world series and you're trying to pull out the like rusty pitcher. Who's never seen a game in a decade. And you're like, yes, this is it. Don't fuck it up. Right. Um, so that's my, that's my little tip if anyone needs it.
Emily: No, that's great. I mean, when Martha Beck talks about that, she talks about, um, calibrating the body compass.
So one way that you can also do that is to think about something that feels like a really big, like that feels super aligned, like something, an experience that you've had that feels like really joyful and that feels really like just every, like that you're, you can, you can call it that [01:02:00] experience and conjure that and really get kind of recall that feeling in your body of like, uh, this is what it feels like to feel, uh, Really like it.
Yes. And then thinking and then going to the other side and it's important that it not be like a traumatic experience, but an experience that's like, where it where it really didn't feel good where you, you know, and a situation where it just. Nothing about it felt good. Um, not big trauma, but just nothing felt good.
And like, put yourself there and notice what's happening in your body. Like notice, like, is my chest tight? Is my heart beating? Like notice the, notice the physiological sensations that go along with both the, the yes and the no. Um, and then that can also be sometimes a helpful tool if you don't really know what these things feel like.
Um, to start
Eva: kind
Emily: of like playing with that. Yeah. .
Eva: Oh, good old Martha Beck . She's, she seems full of wisdom. I just started reading her book. Um, [01:03:00] some. Uh, you might know it's something about integrity. Do you know the way of integrity? Yeah. So, so good. Highly recommend folks. Um, brilliant. Okay. Well, hold on. I have another question.
I feel like we can go in so many different directions and Kylie. I don't know if you have a specific question, but can I just put it out there that before the end of this conversation, can we please talk about perimenopause? I, I opened my mouth to specifically invite you to ask because you were excited to talk about that.
So I'm so excited to talk about this. Like, yes, I don't even, it's like, I, I think you mentioned that there's a connection with perimenopause. Minimal spaces and transitions and all of this, um, and I'm wondering if you could help us tie together and also maybe just like teach a girl a thing or two, because I am not sure what to expect.
Emily: Ah, well, let me tell you, it's different for everyone. Really, it's different. So this is part of why it's part of why it's really, it's, [01:04:00] it's, it's complicated. So the backup, right? I am 47. And. As of today, this is so funny. We're doing this interview today. As of today, it is a year from my last period. And so I am that is the technical marker of when you move from perimenopause to being in menopause is when it's been a year.
Since your last period got it. Thank you for explaining that. Yeah, I wasn't I wasn't arbitrary like, you know, the body doesn't know what 365 days is, but doctors had to kind of figure that out, you know, decide at 1 point and make the call. So, the perimenopausal period is just the time leading up to that menopausal that this.
This day that I am in now, or it's just this actual transition to menopause. And I
Kyley: feel like we should have like party streamers.
Emily: Exactly. Like congratulations. Like a whole thing. It's like, oh, great. Okay. I'm so glad. I have iced and, and perimenopause begins. So it's said to begin when you start to feel [01:05:00] symptoms.
And some people feel very few symptoms and some people kind of breeze through it and it lasts for so that the, the official thing is that it can last for 2 to 11 years, which is so not helpful. Like 2 to 11 years. Like, thanks. That's like women's health. I know. And my symptoms first started when I was 39.
So it's been 9 years. I'm almost there. I'm going to be 48 in a month. So it was almost 9 years for me. Um, and typically it starts with the 1st, kind of indications are like, heavier period or periods that might be closer together. Or you start to kind of, like, become a regular and then there are 34 different things that there's a list of 34 that can potentially happen to you that you can experience.
As a result of your hormones going like your estrogen and your progesterone going wildly up and down, like it's not, I think that some people, I think one of the [01:06:00] perceptions is that you just, that you are, as you're entering menopause, you lose these hormones. And so it's this sort of slow decline. And that's not actually what it, how it works.
It's like, they just go nuts for, you know, fun. Maybe that's what I'm experiencing. So that's what causes all kinds of things. That can cause. Like mood swings, it can cause like, which can come out as like rage or sadness or feeling like you don't know yourself. Like, what am I doing? Like, why am I reacting this way to this thing?
It can cause really, it can cause anxiety. Like I never had anxiety before this, this time I had depression and I struggled with depression, but anxiety was like totally new for me. And it was weird kind of anxiety where I was anxious, like. When I was a passenger in a car, like when my, when my partner was driving or like driving over bridges, like these really weird sort of like my body would go like, what am I doing?
I don't want to be here. And it was this physiological sort of anxiety. Um, but like all kinds of, you know, night sweats and like, we hear about hot [01:07:00] flashes, but I actually didn't have hot flashes until the last. Couple of years, like most of my other stuff was all these other things. Um, and only one in five OBGYNs gets training in menopause care in 2024,
Kyley: which you could see everyone's doing.
Eva: Oh my, this is why I'm so happy that you're talking about it because I just, first of all, I love talking about hormones and periods and cycles and bleeds because I just like normalizing that conversation. I also have had historically very Uh, I will say maybe a challenging cycle. And so, and also because this isn't talked about enough and I, now that you're bringing to light one in one in five,
Emily: five is trained in menopause care and it happens to 100 percent of their patients.
I like, I cannot wrap
Eva: my mind around that. Yes.
Emily: So I am still having friends who are in their late forties going to the doctor and saying, I'm having this, this, and I'm experiencing this, this, and this, and them saying to them with a [01:08:00] straight face, this can't possibly be menopause because it doesn't happen until you're in your fifties.
And that is just not true. It's not true. And I'm like, this is a, this is a gynecologist. This is like a female gynecologist who's saying Oh
Kyley: man.
Emily: So my, like my, yeah. Can I add, can
Kyley: I add an anecdote? Yeah. Because I watched that, my mom was 19 when I was born, so she's a young mom. Yeah. And um, and I watched her go, go through this and I watched that it was.
She had a very difficult experience in perimenopause and I, it was like, she was just like wandering around in the desert by herself. Like it was, it was, there was such a lack of information and research. And like, my mom is not a dummy about these things, right? She takes incredible care of herself is like, like in the sense of like, it's very loving and generous with her body and, and.
Yeah. And I just watched how much she was like feeling physical discomfort, but [01:09:00] also like, she's this fucking no man's land around well, what kind of care is available and like, and so much of it was like, oh yeah, this just kind of sucks. Good luck with it. Totally.
Emily: So much of that, and there still is. And it's like, so my, my advice to anyone who wants a doctor who knows what they're talking about is to specifically seek out a doctor that's trained in menopause care.
Um, like specifically seek out a GYN that's menopause care. North American menopause society, which now I think it's just called the menopause society. They have a, they have a directory on their website. That's how I found my doctor. Um, there's also a whole bunch of telehealth startups that have that have opened up in the last couple of years in order to meet this need.
Um, because a lot of there are so few doctors and like, if you're not in a major city,
like a lot
and a lot of people, like, my doctor is not accepting new patients now. And so it's like, um, I have a few friends who are doing it. With [01:10:00] telehealth and it really is just like it's someone who can just listen to you and it used to be like they used to to use blood tests to determine hormone levels and to decide like you're in perimenopause or you're not.
But now, because you could test 1 day and have a level that's 1 place and test the next day and have a level that's a completely different place because you're going up and down so quickly that it. It doesn't really tell you a whole lot. And so now the standard for diagnosis is, are you experiencing symptoms?
And if
you are like, you know, that's, and we're going to do a blood, like we'll do a couple of blood tests just to see where you are at different times, but like that, you know, any, that a doctor who is trained in menopause care should be basically treating you based on your self reporting of symptoms.
Kyley: Okay. Yeah. Yeah.
Emily: Wow. Um, and it's been, yeah, it's [01:11:00] so, it's, it's just so wild to me that it is this thing that happens to every single person born female and that it is what's finally, just now in the last couple years, starting to be like a culturally acknowledged and discussed. And there's been so little research, like there's so, like they still don't know why hot flashes happen.
They just don't know, like, they're like, we have a theory. It's maybe this, but like, they don't know. And it's because like, so few research dollars go to women's health period. And then with, they almost all go to like, fertility and like, within menopause, like, there is just, there's been nothing. So there's a bill in Congress actually right now that is trying to get more and I think research, federal research dollars allocated towards menopause.
Um, but it's been, it's just been almost nothing. So there's like, hello,
Eva: patriarchy, like, [01:12:00] I mean, like, this is just, yes,
Emily: yes.
Eva: But this does remind me kind of going back to the theme of this podcast is like the cyclical nature I think of us in our lives. And we were talking about, um, you know, the death and rebirth cycle.
I've actually heard my friend say something he's his quote on this is like, I've never, I've never arrived at anywhere except the beginning. Which I think is like such a beautiful quote because it's like you always That's it's true. Like that's it. You're only ever at the beginning of anything else.
Because if you think that you you're done with something, it's just the beginning of something else. And I'm wondering if for you, there feels like there's a connection between, um, yeah, the relationship between. This type of physical and, and, and body transition and life transition and all the transition.
Emily: There is, it's, um, it's interesting because midlife comes with so many transitions. Um, in so many different ways, whether you have kids or not, whether, you know, depending on [01:13:00] career, whatever, like it's, you're also dealing with elderly parents. Potentially you're dealing with, we're sick, people are dying around you.
Like there's all kinds of transitions that can happen. And then. It can, it all is from, like, for so many of us who have this, like, really extended perimenopausal period where it really affects everything in your body. It affects you physically, it affects you mentally, emotionally, it's all happening with the backdrop of this, like, massive transition.
You know, and we hear like so much. I mean, our whole culture is so ageist and you know, I still have friends, tons of friends who are like corporate America, like people working in advertising people, like you dye your hair, you get Botox, like you are like. You do not, if you're a woman, you do not in some, some cases, if you're a man too, but like, mostly if you're a woman, you don't show your age.
You don't want to talk about being in [01:14:00] menopause. You don't want to because like, it's the slide towards irrelevancy is like what our, our culture really. Treats it as entry and likes that we don't have the same thing that so many other cultures do of like we actually Respect the wisdom of people who are older and like that people who've been around a while and like there is Sort of a venerated position in society and we don't have that.
We're just like, oh, you're not hot anymore You're not you can't have babies anymore. Like you can't work anymore. Like, okay. Bye And so for, for women, especially some aging feels terrifying, um, and just something that you want to like push away and everything is anti, I mean, when you go to a drugstore, it's just like, how many ways can we say anti aging with like all of these things that we put on ourselves, right?
And so it's this, like, it's this idea that when you go through. Menopause, you're losing all these things. Like you're [01:15:00] losing your youth. You're losing your fertility. You're losing your vitality. You're losing all of what made you sort of like viable and desirable in the eyes of society. And that's such a bummer.
And
I am really like something that I feel really passionate about is reframing that narrative because. You're also shedding like I, it's not for me. I don't feel like it's a losing. I mean, sure. There's some losing whatever, but the way that I'm really choosing to look at it is like that. I'm shedding all of this shit that I didn't that wasn't that I didn't need.
That wasn't, you know, like, that has been a distraction that has been that has taken energy that has taken like all and I'm returning to sort of an essence of like, who I am and it's like a strengthening of distillation of who I am at my core [01:16:00] with the. Advantage of wisdom with the advantage of age. I mean, you could not pay me to be 25.
Like you could not pay me to go back. And I'm so much happier. I'm so much more relaxed. I'm so much more secure in who I am.
Eva: Gosh, yeah. When I heard you say shedding, really the word that also came up for me was like, it seems like a becoming, like as you're just becoming more of yourself. And I'm so happy that you're sharing that narrative because I actually think that's what's, that's actually probably more in line with reality and that's what's possible if we don't get marred in the stories of, well, it means we're, you know, all the things that you had just said can't work, can't, you know, not, not useful in the same ways that, or that I guess that society expects us to be.
Emily: And what if it's like, it's like, I mean, our society is sick. Like we live in a sick society. And what does it ever Monte? Like that, you know, it's no measure of health to be well adjusted to a sick society. Like, yes, we, we get to say like, okay, fuck you. I'm not doing, I'm not playing by [01:17:00] your fucking rules anymore.
Like I am, I am returning to, it's like a sovereignty that like comes that like returns like people, you know, there's a, what I read. I read, I can't remember the exact. Amount, but there's a, so the, for the body, the energy that it takes to undergo a reproductive cycle every month,
it actually,
like, it takes a lot of energy for the body to do that.
Like that's something that's like kind of hard on, on a body to be going through this process and having periods and, you know, doing these hormonal fluctuations and shedding and growing a new lining and like doing all these things. It's a lot of work for the body. And when your body doesn't have to do that anymore.
Like, where does that energy go? Like that energy can sort of return to you and be used as like creative fodder or like, it's basically like, it frees up space on your hard drive
to be,
you know, for you to [01:18:00] kind of be able to use it however you want.
Eva: I mean, as someone who I think I don't, you know, I'm 40, I think I've I think I've pretty much decided that I don't have kids.
I'm like, woohoo. Like I'm excited. I can use some more energy. That sounds great. Yeah, totally. Yeah.
Kyley: Yeah. It's making me think of some, I do have two kids. I have a seven and a five year old. And, um, when it's making me think of when I decided, you know, not to have a third kid, um, part of that decision was.
Part of that decision was about how much you lose your body is not yours for the duration of like you're pregnant. Then, you know, I nursed my kids and, and, um, and you know, and your body change it, right. There's just all of this, there's this just so much, um, not you or you, which you are not fully you and your body is, um, doing its fucking thing, which is pretty cool.
And also, [01:19:00] uh, when I thought of. When I thought of having a third kid, it wasn't, like, the emotional tax of, like, how much busier a life, it was specifically, like, My body and I have finally reconnected in this new way. And I, I don't, I don't have that energy to expend anymore. Like I, I need it and want it for me.
Um, and so I, I can, I'm really resonating with the, uh, another iteration of exactly that, that like that creative generative energy, like just gets to be yours. And that feels like a really powerful metaphor when you just think of the way. Women are socialized, right? And the way in which we are programs to just like be in the sacrificial.
My, one of my friends and clients said the best line when she's like, my programming has been that I take care of others in order to be taken care of. Right. And, yeah, and, um, and, and I'm just really relishing what you're speaking to of this, of this opportunity to really. [01:20:00] Um, yeah, let it all come back to you.
And I'm also thinking of a line that in my, in my grief process over these past pack of months, there's this line that Stuart has delivered over and over and over again, which is that nothing has been lost, like not, which is not an invalidation of the grief, right? But just like nothing has actually been lost.
Everything is being gained as long as you will let yourself see that. Um, and I love that. I'm just
Emily: going to turn to you as you're saying that.
Kyley: Yeah.
Emily: Um, there's a great book called Hagatude by Sharon. I love the title. Yeah. I can't think of her last name. The book is called Hagatude and it's great. Um, it's about, it's about how I just Googled it.
Her name is Sharon Blackie. Thank you. And it's about, um, how different cultures it's a, well, it's a sort of a memoir. It's a combination kind of like memoir, [01:21:00] uh, research book about the power gained in menopause and about, um, how older women are seen in different cultures and how this menopause transition is treated in different cultures.
And it's so interesting to look at. How Western culture, like how Western culture and our way of looking at this and looking at aging and looking at like, it's all so narrow minded and so negative. And so just like something to fear and something to push away versus so many other cultures that are like.
Yeah, like, you are coming into this is like, you have, you are the wisdom keeper. You are the story carrier. You are the, you are like, it's this, it's like an elevated place in society. And, and, um, just a reminder that, like, the, we don't, we don't have to do it this way that there are so many and then, and then, like, we [01:22:00] don't have to buy this.
Narrative. Um, that's really forced on us, you know? Yeah.
Eva: When you were speaking on that, I had an immediate sense of anger come through actually. 'cause I could sense that like, you know, in comparison to how people things are done in the west and in other cultures, I, a valid anger I think, and anger totally valid how like the systems are.
And I think that anger is useful. But the other thing that came through, which felt really. empowering was I could also see how the change begins with me. It's like, I think I need to see where I'm carrying those stories. You know, I've internalized those stories so deeply. And I think there's something so, and I, and I think what's actually really helpful is seeing other women model it for me too.
You know, like when they've embodied it and they're not, they're not living with finding that narrative, they're liberated, they're happy. They're, they love themselves. They're, you know, it's, it's this, it's this, It is a very empowering sense that I get from other women. And I got a sense of [01:23:00] excitement actually, rather than being, I think, victimized by the anger or sense of like, but also I can fucking change this within myself.
And that feels very hopeful. So I just want to say, yeah, thank you for that. Yeah, of course.
Emily: Yeah. I mean, it's also making
Kyley: me, I'm sorry. Sorry. Go ahead, Emily.
Emily: No, no, that's all. I was going to just agree. Like this is, that's, it's helpful for me too. And I agree, like there's like, I stopped getting Botox. I stopped.
Dying my hair. Um, and I can do that. Like, I also recognize the privilege I have in doing those things. And then I don't work in corporate America. I don't like my job isn't on my livelihood isn't on the line, you know, but it's also like, recognizing that if I have the freedom to do those things, and I choose not to, um, for me, it's like, oh, I'm also reinforcing these stories and I'm reinforcing this idea, you know, and like, and like, so this is a, it's a way for me to, like, sort of embody the things that I believe in the things that I think are important.
Transcribed
Kyley: Yeah, well, it's also making me think about, like, story versus experience and that the [01:24:00] cultural, the story that we're given is, is what we're talking about, right? That, like, aging is terrible and you're irrelevant and, um, and all of these pieces. And yet the actual women in my life to a T share what you have shared here, right?
That like, there might be grief, there might be discomfort, there might be rage at, you know, various pieces. Um, you know, I think, you know, there's certainly an identity shift. I mean, I'm watching that even myself. It's like, Oh, I look a little different than I, that I'm used to looking. And so, so there are some, there's some shifts, but the women in my life.
And, and the women who I, you know, seek out wisdom from either because I know them as people or because they're the books that I read or whatever their experience and their lived wisdom over and over and over again is like, yeah, freedom and love and, um, and like, I love myself more than I ever have. And [01:25:00] like, that's my experience.
Right. As someone who's also almost 40 is like. Oh, my God, I'm hotter than I've ever been like, I like in this because I fucking love my body in a way that 22 year old Kylie had no idea how to do right. And, um, and so I'm, I'm, I'm just thinking about how much the story of patriarchy, like impacts us and is harmful and also like, It's also just like not real, the exact, in that paradoxical way, right?
There are real implications, especially like, yeah, you work in advertising. There's a lot, you're, you're a movie star. There's a lot of shit involved in that. And also it's not actually real because the women who I talk to are like having these liberatory, incredible, beautiful, vibrant experiences.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Eva: Oh, should we do joy? Yeah. How y'all feeling? Good. Emily, was there anything that we didn't ask you that we wanted to speak on that we should have asked?
Emily: Great. I felt like that was like, that was a great [01:26:00] conversation, everybody.
Eva: Um, no. All right. Okay. So we end every episode with a round of joy. We'll all share something that's bringing us joy.
And I would love to know what's bringing you joy in this moment.
Emily: Hmm. I am. I feel like I'm waking up,
uh, after a really long period of being asleep. Um, like, you know, this coming out of coming out of this where I've been for many years has felt really joyful and exploring, giving myself the permission to explore new things like, um, not and, and, you know, Meaning I'm going in a new direction with work that I've never been before.
I'm doing I'm doing mentoring and coaching and and, um, business mentoring and consulting and rather than trying to, like, I, I recognize that I just. What now I want to use my [01:27:00] experience to help other people and to work with other people. And like, that's feeling really joyful and feeling really aligned.
And so it's been, I've been feeling really good about re kind of rebuilding and re imagining my work life based on like where I am now and all of the things that I now know about myself. Um, that I didn't know what 13 years ago, which was the last time I did this.
Um,
and really enjoying, like, having the, having the freedom to just do things the way that I want to do them, um, feels, feels really, really good.
Kyley: Wow.
Eva: I, I really could sense that. And I, the quote came back to me again of like, we never arrive at anywhere except the beginning. And I just got a sense of real, of excitement for you. I think a beginning is a beautiful place because it's almost like the land of, [01:28:00] of possibility. It's, it's limitless. It's open.
And I think, um, as you know, I think we've all gone through big transitions and, and, um, yeah, I went through a big, uh, breakup. Yep. I don't know, maybe a year and change ago, and it's really scary, I think, but it's also when we're open to it, being in a beginning is incredibly generous. So anyway, yeah, um, Kylie, did you want to share your joy next?
Kyley: Uh, I need it.
Eva: I'm, I'm still contemplating. So you go. Okay. All right. Well, I will, I will jump in because something came through for me pretty loud. Um, this morning, which is, uh, I, I've mentioned podcast listeners know I'm really big into Byron Katie's, the work and, and, um, you know, I've been to the school and her and retreats with Tom Compton, who's a facilitator and we run retreats here and I'm just, I've been so, I think.
I'm grateful by the abundance of friends I have made through doing this work, like, like [01:29:00] real connections. I'm like, all of a sudden I'm like, wow, I have such a fullness in my life of, of, of people who I think are also really just sweet, kind, open, maybe a little weird, weird. You know, I'm a weirdo too, but people who are really open to me.
Seeking like the truth and, and, and, and challenging reality and, um, And it, and when we go, when you're on a retreat together, there really is like, you go, everyone's really vulnerable, there's a lot of intimacy, you go real deep, real fast, and so, yeah, there is a connection that's made and I'm just feeling, I think, an abundance and, um, gratitude for that abundance.
Kyley: Yeah. Okay, I have mine. Um, so in my family for context, I am a coach and I also do like shamanic journeying and you know, mystical energy work shit all together at the same time. And in the journey work that [01:30:00] I do with clients, increasingly this thing has been showing up that is terrifying. Yay. That's a good sign.
Yeah, I know. Which is the call to sing. Um, And it's like, it's popped up a couple of times in the past. And, and so much of it, I think is part of it is like, sometimes you need to just fall so far below language that you're not actually like the, the magic is not happening in language. And, um, and so singing is an incredible way of just like, we're just making sounds and magic's happening and you're on your journey and you don't need me to narrate this and you don't need to narrate it yourself.
Um, and. I am not a singer. And I, in fact, I have a funny story of like being in seventh grade and trying out for a chorus and not getting in, but God bless the fucking confidence of seventh grade Kylie. Cause she just showed up on the first day and was like, Oh, you made sounds about right. And I was in college when I remember, I like rewound the tape and I was like, Oh, [01:31:00] I now know what happened.
So my whole life, I like, you know, the, the, the story is like, I can't sing. My family would kind of like lovingly give me shit about it. My mom's not a singer either. And, um, and, and then I was pregnant with my son and, uh, I just started to sing to him and I, he's so musical. I swear to God, he was like, okay, mom, I really like music.
So let's like get this show on the road. Um, And, um, anyway, so now I can at least, like, not embarrass myself if I'm singing along on the radio, but, um, but it's still this, like, very unnerving, vulnerable thing to, like, feel the call to do, and yet, I'm nothing if not one who leans into the call, um, and so the joy is, I think, actually, just the delightful vulnerability of, like, oh, fuck, we're going here again, um, and I found a class, um, That's called birthing your wild voice or something.
And a client sent it to me and I started crying the second I saw the sales page. So [01:32:00] I was like, I don't even need to read it here. Take my money. But it's about exactly this, like not learning how to sing from a classical way, but just like your voice is medicine and there is magic in it. And there is something raw and holy in it.
And can you be in deeper intimate relationship with it and let it show up? However, it's going to show up. And the first class is today and I can't fucking wait. Oh my God. I'm so
excited. So cool. Yeah.
Eva: Yeah. I do think singing is like medicine and actually I would love the link for that information. Maybe I'll take the next round because singing is something I've been wanting to do.
I do think it's, it's like a soulful experience, like, like dancing. And so anyway, I love that for you, Kylie.
Kyley: Yes. Yes. Yes. And shout out. I have one client who God bless her name is Jackie. Every time I ever sing, she always messages me and was like, that was the best part. So anytime I have to do it, I'm just like, I don't care.
Jackie will love it. So everybody else can fuck off with Jackie because she's been my like cheerleader. So, um, yeah, I'm, I'm, I'm really excited about it. It's beautiful. [01:33:00] Kylie. Awesome. Emily. Before we wrap, how can people find you? Where can they find you? If they want more of your wisdom and work, where do they go?
Emily: Ah, there's a few places. So my website is withemilymcdowell. com. Um, and that's how you can work with me. That's how you can kind of see what's on offer. Things are changing around. So it's like website is the best place for that. Um, and then I have a Substack. I have a newsletter that is free. Um, it's hosted on Substack because there is a paid option, but most of the content is free.
Um, and it is just emilymcdowell. substack. com. Um, you can Google my name in Substack. You can Google my name in newsletter. It all works. Um, I am on Instagram sort of Emily on life on Instagram, but I have only posted a handful of times in the last couple of years and I am much happier for
Eva: you. Good for you.
Emily: You can follow me. I can't promise what you're going to get. I'm mostly just. Talking about the other things I'm [01:34:00] doing at this point, like versus participating in Instagram, um, culture. So plug for your newsletter, as I
Kyley: mentioned earlier, like it's, I'm not, I'm not a, I don't read a lot of the emails that I get, but I am always so excited when I see yours and your pal Holly's Hollywood occurs are the two that I'm like, yes, it's like Christmas in my newsletter, in my inbox day, though, it's just really wise and generous and, uh, honest.
And so I recommend it thoroughly to people.
Emily: Thank you so much.
Well, thank you both so much for having me. This was a great. Thank
you.
This was such a delight. Great way to start my day.
Eva: Oh yeah. It's early there for you. Yeah. Um, yeah. And this was just such a pleasure. Um, and Let's see, this will come out Kylie like in three, four weeks, I think.
Kyley: So yeah.
Eva: Yeah. Our team will send it. Yeah. If you could share it with your folks, we would so appreciate that. [01:35:00] Um, and we're really excited to share it with our audience. I think. I think. Yeah. They're going to get so much out of it.
Emily: Awesome. Yeah.
Eva: Okay. We'll be in touch.
Emily: All right. Thank you.