It's the final episode of Hello Universe, and we're not going out quietly. Eva and Kyley sit down for one last long, meandering, deeply honest conversation — the kind that made this show what it is.
It's the final episode of Hello Universe, and we're not going out quietly. Eva and Kyley sit down for one last long, meandering, deeply honest conversation — the kind that made this show what it is.
They talk about how they both arrived at the same conclusion at the same time: it was simply, organically, time. From there, the conversation opens up into everything this podcast has really been about — personal evolution, spirituality, surrender, ambition, friendship, and the courage to show up as a work in progress.
Kyley reflects on her journey from corporate sales director to embodied, magic-wielding creator. Eva shares how years of spiritual exploration have slowly dissolved her perfectionism and her fear of being misunderstood. Together, they look back at the lessons baked into the behind-the-scenes of building this show — the guilt, the hiding, the moments of repair, and the unconditional love that made it all work.
They close with some of their most honest advice yet: change your mind freely, share yourself as a work in progress, know your capacity, have the audacity to ask — and never underestimate the profound medicine of a really good female friendship.
This isn't really an ending. It's a pivot. And if you want to stay in the loop for what comes next, be sure to share your email here so we can keep in touch.
In This Episode:
Want to stay in the loop for what comes next with Kyley and Eva? Share your email here!
Eva's instagram: @iamevaliao
Eva's free course on AWAKENING
Kyley's Instagram: @kyleycaldwell
Kyley's free mini-course
Eva: [00:00:00] hey everyone, it's Eva,
Kyley: And it's Kyley.
Eva: and welcome back to the final episode of Hello Universe.
Kyley: I don't know what sound effect to make for this one.
Eva: I, there's no sound, especially for tears. I see the crying emoji.
Kyley: Yeah, and also like it, the emoji just also is like sprouting flowers out of its eyes.
Eva: Yeah.
Yeah.
Kyley: for that, but that's the vibe. It's like flowers out of our eyes and tears, because it's a bittersweet final Hello Universe episode.
Eva: Yeah. So listeners, [00:01:00] this has been something that Kyley and I have been discussing for months now, would you say?
I would say like deep, maybe in the summer. We had both simultaneously just come to the conclusion that we were like, you know what? We feel like the life of hell universe is coming to an organic end.
And I was, and continue to be so sad, like sad as in, you know, very, in a very loving way. Like it feels so right. I think we're both ready and onboard and excited for what's coming next. And also because this is something that we have loved for so many years and has taken care of us for so many years, it's also significant that this thing that we've built, we've, I didn't know when the day was gonna come and, and it
came and it just came so naturally
Kyley: I
think, yeah, I think that's actually one of the little tidbits I wanted to share is, um, the gift of it [00:02:00] being so organic and natural. So I, I still remember I was out to breakfast with Nick and I shared with him like, you know, I, of having this sneaking suspicion, I started to just like notice in my like energy body essentially that like, I had the sneaking suspicion that I was all of a sudden for the first time since 2019, we started recording this in 2019, that I was having like, um, some thoughts of like, all of a sudden I just like had some resistance to recording and like had some resistance to like working on the podcast for the first time ever.
And I shared with my husband like, oh shit, I think this means I don't wanna do the show anymore. And I felt wicked bummed because I was afraid. That, that would be like conflict between us or grief between us, or we would want, you know, and I had that moment of like, fuck, I don't wanna know, I don't want to want this to end.
Right? Um, and so I [00:03:00] was like, I'm just gonna sit on this for a minute and I'll know, you know, I'll say something soon, but I'm sitting a and then almost immediately you and I had another conversation about like, you know, the cost of the show and like, you know, what we were gonna do next. And then organically, you basically messaged me the same thing.
We're like, wait, is it time for it to be done? And I, I share that story because I think it's the, when I think about how many times we resist change and I can feel how in that moment, this totally effortless thing of like, oh, it's time for us to let go. And so then we just worked together on what that might look like
Eva: Mm-hmm.
Kyley: versus all the times that we like resist and we fight.
And it creates this like inner conflict and external conflict. And this feels, has felt like such a beautiful. Natural transition. And so if anyone is out there listening and has a transition that they like, kind of know it's time for, but they've been resisting, like the more you lean into it, the gentler it's gonna be.
'cause I know that, I can see how if I'd fought it [00:04:00] or you'd fought it, like that tension would've showed up somewhere
in, in this.
Eva: Yes. However, that being said, I also think we're very lucky because we both came to this conclusion at the same time. And so there was very little, uh, there was very little, uh, it wasn't hard
sometimes I don't think. I, I think we were lucky is what I'm trying to say. Like there, there's a lot to be said about two people being on the same page at the same time.
Like we we're lucky
and that, so it made it a lot easier. And I think that's also why it feels so good in a way,
you know, that we're this thing that we love that. Again, can't stress enough. It's like there was, you know, just, just like a last week there we were having conversations like, but do we really want it to end?
You know, because we do like, love meeting and having these conversations and the richness, but, um
Kyley: the guests that we get to talk to and interact with and all of like your listener messages,
like, Ugh.
Eva: And the growth that's happened, I mean, [00:05:00] 2019 and I think back when we started this and we were babies and we didn't know what the fuck we were doing and it was, um, a big deal.
Do you remember being like,
Kyley: Now we're older. I don't know what the fuck we're doing.
Eva: Yeah, exactly. Exactly. Um, I think that we've both, both definitely have grown a lot and learned a lot from this experience, and we're so thankful to all the listeners who have grown and learned with us.
We love you.
Kyley: So maybe, so our, our thought for the final episode is that we would just use this to like celebrate and wrap up and reflect on the journey. And so maybe that's the first question I kind of wanna ask you, Eva. How. I mean, how do you feel like the show has changed you and or how you've changed? I mean, it's, it's hard to separate from me,
like how the show has changed me versus how just like life has changed me, but it's been this huge cornerstone of my life and my spiritual development and my work and my friendship with you all these years.
So yeah, like if you reflect [00:06:00] back on baby Eva who started and now.
Eva: Yeah, I don't know. I, I'm gonna be honest with you. I hate this question. I knew it was coming because it's like, it's like the question that you ask,
Kyley: Okay, great. Let's throw it out. Ask a better one. Ask when you're excited to, you don't even have to answer it.
Eva: I think I would be more interested in sharing, in hearing how you think I've changed in these
past few years, and I share about how you've changed. Because
Kyley: Oh, that's sexy. Yeah.
Eva: let me. Let me, be clear though. What I wanna emphasize, and I don't know if you ever experienced this and if listeners ever experienced this is like, I knew this question was coming and I was like, sometimes there are points where I'm like, I don't know.
Have I learned anything at all? Have you ever experienced it? Like, have I changed at all? You
know what I mean? And um, sometimes I can feel like a really defeated, despairing thought, like, I haven't learned jack shit, but
it doesn't feel that way right now. I just feel
Kyley: it's really hard to see ourselves clearly. Yes. Yes. I had
Eva: I just feel like I feel like me, you know?
But I'm wondering if you were to say, I think, you know, sometimes we can be more clear reflection of each other, and I'm [00:07:00] curious, do you, how might
you think I have changed
Kyley: Oh, yeah. Yeah. I love this question. I already have answers. Okay. All right. First of all, I think your journey over these past six years has been that you've just been increasingly letting yourself have a fuck load, more access to joy.
Eva: Hmm.
Kyley: And I have watched all sorts of ways that that has shown up.
And you know, like I'm thinking, you know, you, there's been these moments where you've leaned into hardship, but you've always been willing to do that. Right. And the thing that I think feels like in some ways, maybe like one of the biggest, quote unquote differences from even when we started to even now, is like, I think you just give yourself a lot more permission to be joyful without caveats or without like, oh, I know this will change, or I know other people don't have this.
Or, you know, there's, there's, there's a willingness to like, be in your joy without feeling bad for it or about it.
[00:08:00] Um, and um, and I think the other probably really biggest thing, which is probably somehow related, but is, um. You know, in the, we've had lots of conversations on the air and off the air about the part of you who has felt an obligation to like make sense or make herself explainable to people or not be crazy or not let herself get too crazy or not let herself speak in a way that would be misunderstood
and like really
Eva: to
alienate other people because I'm too much in like the mystical and the woo,
and like, yeah. Being of my fear of being misunderstood and not being like trustworthy and losing my mind.
Kyley: Yeah. And I feel like now you're more. Like now you dance with that more,
you know, instead of it being the thing, like, I think that's probably a limit that you'll always brush up against in the sense that there's certain curriculums that we're like dancing, dancing with, you know? But it feels more from my perspective, like a dance that you're in [00:09:00] instead of this like wall that you bang into or feel trapped by.
It's like, oh, this old friend. Okay.
Um,
Eva: For sure. For sure.
Because I can say, first of all, these reflections are really helpful. And I will say the whole like, fear of losing my mind and not being relatable has gotten so much better because let me tell y'all, it's really hard to fucking record a podcast about the mystery of life. Uh, if you're gonna continuously care about whether or not this is measurable and it makes sense and it's logical. Like, the podcast in my work, you know, and really the podcast, it's 'cause it's a really public sphere, you
know, um, really has pushed me to be like, you know what? Just fuck it. I just gotta let go.
Like, I gotta, I got, I gotta be misunderstood because I cannot go around curating what everyone thinks about me all the time. And, and you're right, it's an ongoing thing. Like it still comes up all the time. Um.
Kyley: Yeah,
Eva: There's a lot more freedom
Kyley: [00:10:00] yeah, yeah. It's like, feels like there's less suffering. It's like, oh, that's curious. That voice, that, that question is here yet, or that story is here again.
Eva: I think it's like, I experience it as less overthinking about things, which is really nice. 'cause overthinking is also, you know, is as I look back something, not to say that that's gone, but something that I really struggled with a lot, and I think that's just toned down a little bit over the years.
Kyley: I have one more add, which
is also, I think probably also related, but, um, I think you're a lot more willing to acknowledge that you don't like something without explaining it,
Eva: Oh, I love that.
Kyley: because I feel like, you know, in, you've had moments in the past where you're like. You know, well, I like, like you want to be so understanding of other people or other people's experiences that you kind of like pretend that you like something more than you do or, you know, like when I asked the question of like, how are you different?
I feel like an older version of Eva would've been like, well, that is a valid question, and Kyley asked it, so it probably matters [00:11:00] to her.
Eva: And I would've explained
Kyley: like that question. And so now we're having this much juicier conversation and I just think that you like, apologize less to yourself for the things that you don't like.
Eva: yeah. And I think it is maybe a slow dissolving of fawning
people pleasing behavior, which comes down to like, I mean, I think what this podcast had done for both of us, and I think this is where I'm gonna transition to see, to talking about where I think you've changed, is that like it's really been an amazing experience in connecting with power in different ways.
And so for me it's this idea of like just owning what I think and like not being so apologetic and not overthinking and coming more into. My own. And for you I would say 150% what I've just seen you experience and I feel like an explosion actually the past through the years is like an [00:12:00] embodying of your own power is what I've seen and what I've experienced you experiencing, which has been so cool.
Like, so, and your, and your power. I, this is the medicine that you offer to other people too. You know, it's the medicine that you've offered to me and to your clients, but this idea of like, I think power can show up in a lot of ways, but just like your magic and for you especially, I think that's also just been more of a owning of your magic and magic in general and the role that magic plays in your life, you know? But this sort of like queen, I don't use shit like badass, you know, energy. And I think that also comes out in your courses a lot and. Um, it's API love, I love this version of Kyley, you know, it's very powerful and like being around you, like you share that power with other people. And it's interesting because [00:13:00] like so many women, but I, I guess I'll just speak for us, you know, you've talked about how you really also had lots of people pleasing, sort of fawning, making yourself small overthinking anxiety tendencies, right?
And now you just kinda like, I feel like you just like kind of walk into a room and you're like, what up bitches? I'm here.
Kyley: Oh, I still appreciate this reflection because you know what's funny about evolution, like our own evolution is that we just like, sometimes we just keep seeing the. Like, I'm so aware of the places where I'm not that, that sometimes I get fixated on. Right. I've spent all these years trying to like unlearn, fawning and let myself be more of a like, yeah.
What up bitches. And because I'm aware of, it's almost like the sand in your shoe or something like that. Like, 'cause I'm aware of that. It's like, it's sometimes it's like outsize and I don't see how much
like yeah. I am kind of a person who's just like, fucking [00:14:00] egg. That's something cool to share, you know, or whatever.
Like without apology, but but I am not always good at recognizing that. 'cause I'm like,
Eva: I think that's
Kyley: these places I am apologizing.
Eva: exact 100%, which is why I started off this podcast being like, have I changed at all? Like, have I learned anything? You know? And I know that that's because we're stuck in the minutia and not looking at the overall bigger picture, because, you know, we, that's what we do to ourselves.
But, but this energy of, like, for you, I don't know, it's this, it shows up in different ways, but I experience this sometimes as like this really dark dance with the mystery, you know, sometimes it's like this, this. This like serpent queen energy. And sometimes it's like this royalty sometimes, you know, you're like, it's Cleopatra and you're just like sitting on your throne.
And I think that's what you want for like all women. And it's delicious. It's a very delicious energy
Kyley: Oh,
fucking a thank you.
Eva: yeah. Yeah. And that, and that [00:15:00] coincides with this other thing that I've just seen you develop over the years, which was there from like day one of me knowing you. But it's, it's really something that you continue to hone is magic.
Your relationship to magic, how you wield magic. You know, how you experience magic and apply magic to all different areas of your life. And I think you've expanded your capacity and your like limitations because I've seen you rub up against your limitations and be like, and then also, you know, rub up against your limitations or fears or doubts maybe.
And then. Continuously come back to like, but this is true for me. This is
my truth. And I know, I know what I know. I know what I feel. I know what I experience. And so even against all odds or doubts, you know, you continue to come back and claim that magic, which is cool.
Yeah, there's so many things actually I could probably say about like how I think, um, how I, how I've seen you change and grow over the years, but another [00:16:00] more practical thing, which I really love because this is like an area that, you know, has come up repeatedly in our, uh, like in our podcast.
Like you've shared about it many times, but also just from a logistical standpoint. Um, something around like your relationship with like guilt with friendship and boundaries and time.
Kyley: Yeah.
Eva: like I think you are much, I don't know if you remember this, but when we. Before we even started recording, and we were just talking about putting together a podcast, you and I had set up a meeting together
Kyley: Mm-hmm.
Eva: and you just didn't show up. And not only did you not, not only did you not show up, but you didn't call, you didn't text me or email me and tell me that, like, I'm not showing up. Like that was old Kyley, and you would pull that shit because my understanding was that you were actually overwhelmed, but then you didn't have, you like, couldn't express it, [00:17:00] and then you went into guilt and then, and then just basically like hid, hid, you know, and, and avoided.
Kyley: Oh yeah. The behind the scenes of this podcast, right? Because there's like, if we think about like how the podcast is, like if, how we've evolved within the podcast, it's like there's these conversations that we have live on the air with the, with our guests, with each other that are totally fucking amazing and might expanding.
And then there's this whole behind the scenes where we have worked on the project of the podcast and that has been its whole, a whole nother curriculum, which we've referenced on the show before. But yeah, for me, oh my fucking God, this has been such a huge place where that like guilt, shame, overwhelm.
I'm gonna say I can do it 'cause I think I should do it, and then I can't, and then I'm gonna hate on myself and then I'm gonna hide and then my partners and be like, what the fuck? Where did you go?
Like all of that. I mean, in some ways, um, yeah, this has been a huge place of like, and you've been such an incredible like friend and partner and also.
Like, you have [00:18:00] offered me such unconditional love without the self abandonment. Right. Of like, you know, like, you know, like, um, there's been plenty of behind these in the conversations, you know, at certain moments where you would be like, Hey, that sucked. Right. And also it was always just with like such unconditional love of like, you're, you're good.
Let's figure
Eva: Yeah, like it sucked. And also like, but also it's not the end of the world. Like we'll
just figure it out. Yeah.
Kyley: And, uh, I'm in a multiple, multiple times that has like, I mean, just been an opportunity to like kind of shift the fabric of my reality in all honesty, because that had that like guilt, shame, shutdown thing was intense
for a long time in my life.
Eva: And I
can really see how that's be like, it's so funny. It's like the perfect setup universe is like, 'cause the, the setup is that. People like you, and people want you, and people wanna be your friend. [00:19:00] And so you have all of these opportunities, is what I see. And like, you wanna do a lot of things with your work and you, you're raising two, yet you have a busy, busy packed life with people who also just want your time.
You know? And what I've really seen you do over the years is like, be able to set boundaries, say no, or if you need to change something, just change it without necessarily needing to overexplain it either or feel like bad about it. You're just like, I, yeah. It's like, um, it's, you've gotten, I think, you know, I wanna say it's a lot more clear, but that comes from inner work of just not feeling like, uh, you're doing something wrong, you
know, or somehow you're lacking or that it's your fault.
You know? When
we get rid of the self condemnation, then we can just be clear about our yeses and nos.
Kyley: Much like your, like, oh, am I making sense kind of story. This is one that I like just yesterday was banging into, you know,
like, it's like it's not, it does feel much more like a dance and I can recognize the signs of it and it doesn't feel [00:20:00] like a prison anymore. But I definitely can recognize like boundaries giving overwhelm. Like it's a curriculum
for me. And so like, we're gonna just hang, we're gonna be hanging out together.
Eva: yeah. And we've like all of these things that we were sharing in terms of like how we've grown. We've recorded so many episodes about these things,
and you can go back and listen, but what's coming to mind right now that I really wanna highly suggest for people who haven't listened? We did a whole series, series called like, am I Going Crazy?
I think it was like a three part series, and that was really helpful for me. Like I, you know, and I feel like I could probably go back and listen to that whenever I'm starting to doubt my own, I don't know, spirituality.
Kyley: And also we did a series about overwhelm and so yeah, where we both were just like, here's my tangled thought, help me,
help me untangle it. yeah.
Okay, I, I have a question then I have one for you. Um, how has your definition of spirituality [00:21:00] changed over the years?
Eva: Okay. So I just had this memory. the beginning when you and I were figuring out the podcast, and I came in here with a really strong meditation background, right? So like spirituality for me was a lot of what I learned through like Buddhist principles and concepts and teachings and meditation and, and as we were getting new guests on or deciding what topics we wanted to talk about, you were bringing in all this like weird ass funky shit.
And I was like, what is, I was like, I was like, I was like, what? What's happening here? You know? I was like, and I can't remember the guests, but they were, you know, more about like, it was, it's, it was definitely more focused on the mystical. And I remember having a specific conversation with you being like, okay, I think there's a differentiation here, which was helpful at the time actually of like, you know, I'm more like the, you know, meditation.
Like,
I don't know what I even meant by that. And you're, you're really passionate about the mystical, um. [00:22:00] That has just like, those line, those were just like lines that I drew in the sand at the time that were helpful. And since then, those lines have been completely erased. know? Uh, it's like, I don't, my answer was, and I think will always be, and I hope it can feel true and, and embodied for me, is that like, I don't know, you know, like I don't, I don't, it's, I think spirituality is like, I don't know.
And also for me, spirit, oh, nature I think plays a huge role in this. But what I mean when I say I don't know, is that like, if we've had so many people come on here into all sorts of different practices and, um, backgrounds, you know, from like weird occult stuff and witchy stuff to like, you know, traditional church religion, you
know, and. I think I'm just much more open to, to everything, and I really think it's just about what helps us feel connected to like it's, it's [00:23:00] always like the feeling that it gives us, you know, whether your practice is like tarot or numerology or going to church every week, it has something to do with the fact that we're all longing to feel connected to ourselves and also something bigger
and to experience like the awe and the magic and to be humbled by that,
you know?
Kyley: I, yes. I love what, I love what you just said, and I think, um. Hold on, I wanna pause and collect this really beautiful, just vulture just flew and was like soaring right in front of my window as you were saying all of that. Oh, here it is back again. Hello.
Eva: cool.
Kyley: Um, hi Vulture. Thank you. Um, yes, I love everything that you said and I think, and I do remember that I do think when we started that you had this like very deeply rooted practice in meditation and I was like, what's up?
I just channel weird shit.
Eva: Mm-hmm. [00:24:00] Yeah. Oh yeah. You were really into the Kashic records at the time.
Kyley: Yeah, I mean that's how it started for me, right? In terms of like this business and um, um, and, and also like I still remember googling, I'll never forget this, like Googling, am I having a spiritual awakening or am I losing my mind?
You know, because
like just things, I can also still remember I was talking with this the other day, someone laying on a yoga mat and like looking up at the ceiling or like a, doing like triangle pose or something.
And like the ceiling started moving.
It was just like, what the fuck is happening?
Um, but I think, I think for me. I definitely feel much more rooted in, I don't know, I think when I first, my, when we first started the show, my sense of spirituality did have a linearity to it that I didn't recognize. Right?
This sense of like, oh, you do X, Y, and Z and you heal things. Or like, there was just, I just still wasn't, had some sense of like [00:25:00] linear progression to life. And so it was in my sense of spirituality and I feel so much more connected to and comfortable with the fact that I don't fucking know. I have no idea and that my job is not to know and more delicious things happen when I'm in the, I don't know.
Um, and I didn't really have access to that. In the beginning. Um, um, and, and also probably wouldn't have said yes to all, to the journey of it if I knew how much. Right. Like the comfort that you would get answers is like part of what draws you in in the beginning, and
then like you're far in, you're too far into go back and it's like, oh yeah, that answers thing.
That was just pretend, you know.
Eva: Okay. Yes. Mm-hmm. Oh wait. Can we just, okay,
that's, I wanna go, I wanna, I wanna put a pin in that and come back to this thing about getting answers. 'cause that's really good. But continue. So what else? How
else is your definition of spirituality change
or experience?
Kyley: Similar to what you were saying about, um, kind of mysticism and [00:26:00] meditation kind of fusing together a bit more, I think my mysticism or my like experience of spirituality is so connected to my body now and so much more connected to my body.
And like, in some ways I think my spirituality is like. Feelings and physical sensation.
And that's actual, right? It's like, it's not, it's, it's just so much down, like down and in, like even I don't really use the word phrase like higher self that often. 'cause I think of it like, I think of my like deeper self, you know,
like, so, um, um, and when I feel out of spiritual alignment on some level, it's usually because I'm like not, I'm not comfortable being in my body or in my feelings in that moment.
And so I think I had, like, I. An inkling of that, but that is like, so fused now that any, like the portal to any mystical experience is gonna [00:27:00] be down and into my body. Right. And that like, there's like nothing more mystical
than like really fucking being in your body.
Um, and um, and that's sometimes the thing that I'm really fucking scared of.
Right. And the thing that I'm resisting is
Eva: Yes.
Kyley: being in my body. And that's okay. 'cause then I just love that. Um, but I think that is, that's something that like 2019 year olds Kyley didn't,
Eva: didn't
Kyley: experience. Yeah. I didn't experience yet,
Eva: Yeah. Yeah. I think I'm really happy that you brought that up because I think that's a through line through our probably more recent, I would say recent as in our later half of the history of the show. Like it's just become like feelings, emotions, and then sensations and the body
have just become, um, intrinsic to our work.
An undeniable part of like what it means to be a spiritual human or, or human having a spiritual experience. And it just keeps coming up [00:28:00] over and over and over again in our work. But also when, when we talk to guests, it's like, um, and I didn't. I think I had a much more shallow understanding of that when I started because I was, you know, you know, in meditation you do feel a lot of that.
It's like, I actually think my meditation practice set me up for being able to, uh, have larger capacity to be with the sensations and notice the sensations or whatever. But I had no, but it's like been this whole deep trippy journey, you know, of just like being with myself and the experience of the sensations and emotions.
And I think that's become a much bigger part of, yeah, my spiritual experience. That and also, and again, this will continue to like grow. Um, and I've, I think, I think when we started the podcast I was already, you know, awakening to my relationship with nature. But I think that's also been a continuous thing that's. Continue to unfold. That to me also [00:29:00] somehow feels inextricable from, from my spirituality. I, you know, it's like there somehow, like the same thing. I don't know how, but there's like, when I'm in nature, I am connected to God and I'm connected to myself and it's like, and nature is God, you
know, and I just, and some of my favorite episodes have been the ones where we have like these really embodied, beautiful experts on nature.
You
know, talking about all of the different ways that they experience nature and how they're able to, to share about nature. Like those have been some of my favorite
Kyley: Yes. Well, and that's something I've been thinking about and like has come through in my practice a lot lately, is just this idea of like, belong, like you belong, we belong to the earth, and we just think that we are somehow separate and we have all this suffering because we experience ourselves as separate.
And then you go hug a tree and the tree's like, bitch, you belong.
Like, what, what are you, what are you going on about? You belong to the earth as much as the tree belongs to the earth, as much as like anything belongs to anything. And I, [00:30:00] I just think, um, yeah, nature man. It's, um, and, and I'm thinking, speaking of like past episodes, I remember we had Sophie Strand on the show.
She said something, I, I think it was Sophie Strand, forgive me, whoever said this, if it wasn't her, but was talking about how, like, who said it like a parking lot isn't. Isn't nature. Right? I remember that. This is like a line of like, everything is nature and, um, and it's making me think about like, sometimes um, the spirit is like literally just go open the door.
You know what I mean? Like, if I'm like having a hard time, you know, and I'm like, I should go for a walk in the woods. And spirit is just like, just open your fucking door and stick your head outside. Like
just stick your nose in the air that's outside your house, you know?
Eva: exactly. Yeah. 'cause yeah, and that's really beautiful that it's, it doesn't have to be complicated and it's right here with this Yeah.
At all times. And I think, I hope that's an area of my spiritual experience that I can [00:31:00] continue to expand. And I think I am, you know, being here in Brazil is like, it's, that's why I part Yeah.
I love it so much. You know, because I have the experience of I think, connecting with the spirit of nature here. But I'm, I'm excited to see where that will go. Continue to go.
because I think, Yeah.
like wildness we had, we said we had, anyway, I wanna, uh, this idea of like, you know, when I think about where I wanna continue to take my spiritual experiences is like, I wanna continue to explore the experience of being a a, a wild being.
All what this conversation is actually making me think of in terms of like how has my spirituality changed over the years is that, you know, when you were talking about in the beginning your practice was more linear and that you thought you would get answers. You know, like that's why we came into this is because we wanted like something tangible or some answers or basically for me it was a lot of like, there was still a lot of fixing involved.
It was like, I'm confused and I'm messed up and I am, [00:32:00] um, anxious and I need an answer and I need it to be fixed. And there was very much that back in 2019 anyway. And it's so amazing to me how the rhetoric of all of this has changed through social media. I think social media is really interesting 'cause things changed really, really fast. But there was still very much the um, voice of like, ah. Purity culture and like fixing everything and op and optimizing everything. The optimizing thing is still very much there. I mean this is just, you know, colonization and capitalism, but I think there's just been like a much greater embracing of the messiness
Kyley: mm.
Eva: and, um, which goes along with also the, the, I don't know, which also goes along with the chaos, which is accepting like, maybe am I losing my mind?
You know, am I going crazy? But one thing that's different for me for sure about this whole, you know, whether it's my spiritual practice or personal or just [00:33:00] growth, is that I've actually begun to see, and I think one of our podcast episodes said this, maybe, maybe it was Susan vgo, but something about how like, as I grow or evolve, sometimes outwardly it looks like I'm going backwards.
I'm digressing because I just don't care as much. You know what I mean? Like. The perfectionism, me is gonna outwardly wanna present. Like I have it all figured out and I have, there's order, you know, and there's
structure. And actually my life is like a lot fucking messier now. And from the outside, you know, if someone was measuring, they might, it might look like I've digressed,
but sometimes progress is just the acceptance of, of
what is, you know, and that's like, there's like freedom in that and liberation in that.
And then you're like, suddenly you find yourself in the present moment. But, um, I, I actually think I'm, this is something I'm [00:34:00] still figuring out and maybe if we were still recording the podcast, you could help me like unpack this. But there's something where I feel like the more free I become or the more healed I am, like the less ambitious I am. Because I think for me, a lot of my ambition was coming from like a lack place.
Kyley: Yes,
Eva: Like, uh, and that's been very confusing for me because I still equate like success with like, ambition and then I'm like less ambitious and I'm like, wait, am I going backwards? But, so there's a, a little bit of that where there's still confusion.
And I wanna be very clear. I actually think ambition's like a beautiful thing. I think, I think it's great to be ambitious and there is, I think there's ambition fueled by force and lack, and then there's ambition fueled by like being connected to your heart, you know, and your truth and God. And so I think I'm moving more towards the second, you know, being, being motivated from love. but but it's looked. Messy in the in-between [00:35:00] because to the outside it's like, I just ha I've been doing less
and also like healing my body and chronic fatigue, you know, there's like all this stuff. And so it's just been so interesting to see that, like you say this a lot, it's never what you think it is, right?
Is that you're lying. It's,
never what you think it is. It's, and I love that it's never what you think it is. Like you think a spiritual journey is gonna look like this and and like the universe just comes in and she's laughing at you and you're like, ha, it's like this completely different thing.
Kyley: Uh, yes. Oh my gosh. Ambition. Oh, this is such a beautiful piece. 'cause I, my relationship to ambition has so totally changed. I mean, when we first started the show, first of all, I was still working. I was, we, you people can go back and listen to the Kyley Got fired episode if you in, or in 20, you know, I think it was like September, 2020.
Um, and, um, and, you know, and I was a sales director with like a bajillion d direct reports and like in a very corporate grind kind of mentality in some ways. [00:36:00] And it took me so long to unlearn that within my own business and, and, and to get clear on. What do I want versus what do I think that I want, or what do I think will bring me safety?
Or what do I think, you know, like, and I am constantly like surprised by how much I'm dropping. I'm like, oh, I don't actually want that. Oh, I don't want that either. And some of it I think will come back, you know, like, oh, I don't actually give a shit about having a huge follower count. And then what comes in its place is, oh, but I do really care about speaking this truth that is living in my body and like, burning me up from the inside if I don't fucking let it out.
'cause that's my,
you know, spiritual like, um, you know, project I agreed to. And, um, and I do want, like, I do want a lot of people to hear it, but that's actually a very different desire than I wanna have a big follower count. Right? It's like, I wanna, I [00:37:00] wanna speak my fire.
Eva: Mm-hmm.
Kyley: And watch it have, and then like, and like let it be out in the world, which might end up with a similar result.
Right? But it's to your point of like, what's the motivation of the desire? Um, um, and how fucking good it feels when you drop the fake forced version of ambition. You
know, that actually is just a fucking prison. I'm gonna do this, this, I do this so many times with my clients is we're constantly like, oh, you don't actually want that.
You just think that's the way to get to what you want,
you know?
Eva: Yes.
exactly. Exactly. So anyway, that's been interesting and, uh, continuing unfolding.
Kyley: You know what I think is one more thing I will say about what my, how my spirituality has changed. Um, I did not know how much this involved surrender when I signed up.
Eva: Oh man. Yeah. I've seen you do a lot of really solid, good surrendering over these
past few years, I gotta say, [00:38:00] which
is to me, the ultimate sign of strength. 'cause surrendering is, yeah. Not for the weak of willed.
Kyley: no. And I really think I had no concept of like, I don't think that was a word or a energy that I was in relationship to. And now it's like one of the cornerstone ways of being in the world is like, oh, right, we're back to surrender. Oh,
right. We're back to letting the fuck go. And, um, that, um, yeah, sometimes has been brutal, always has been exquisite.
Um, and now it's just like, oh, I'm out of alignment. What am I, what do I need to, where do I need to surrender?
You know, I've been suffering. Oh, where am I not, what do I need to surrender?
Eva: Mm-hmm.
Kyley: Um, so that's been a, that's a surprise to 2019 Kyley.
Eva: And we've had also many rich, amazing, I think, helpful conversations on surrender too. So if that's a lesson that you're continuously learning, you can go back and find those
Kyley: Yeah.
Eva: on our website or somewhere. All right. Kyley, what's the other, well, you had another question. I think.
Kyley: So we're wrapping something up right now and wrapping up the [00:39:00] podcast, which then also inherently means we're stepping into something new, right?
That's just the cyclicality of life. And so I'm curious what you think the like themes of this next chapter are for you.
Eva: Okay, I want, I still want you to answer first,
Kyley: Okay. Okay.
Eva: so to pave, to pave the groundwork for me.
Kyley: So today is a very interesting day because we are recording our very last episode. Uh, I also am submitting my taxes, which is just an like administrative thing that's been dragging. Um, I am signing up with a new coach. I haven't had a mentor in a really long time, uh, in this capacity. And I'm signing up with, uh, Meg McDermott if anybody knows her on social media.
Very pumped. And, um, I'm packing to go to Italy for two week vacation tomorrow. And I say all of those things because it does, it feels not lost on me that like, there's a [00:40:00] whole bunch of things that are like wrapping up and starting all today,
you know, and, and it feels like the energy in my body has, feels like.
Things are going to click together in a way I haven't experienced before. Not from a like perfectionist, like, and now I've arrived energy, but like I have this feeling of like, I'm gonna come back from this trip and we're gonna start running
in this. Like, and I don't know, I don't know what the run will be.
I don't know where it will go, but I just have this feeling of like wind at my back, like momentum, that kind of energy. Sometimes I have this dream where I like am running or like do this flying jump thing and like each one gets like bigger and like faster and I'm like kind of carried, like there's some energy that's like my own movement is carrying me forward in this very like, felt sense way.
And, and I, [00:41:00] I just have the feeling that this next chapter is going to be about like, movement out in the world.
You know that a lot of the chapter that I've been in, I think probably for the whole time that we've recorded the show in some ways, has been really about like shoring up something and unlearning something and letting something land that lives inside my body.
And I have felt this year, like, you know, this first few months of 2026 to be like a transition. Like I felt the ship turning
and I felt this for a whole cohort of people, but that's a different message. But like, and I just had this feeling of like, yeah, like, okay, outer like yeah, movement out in the world is gonna speed up.
And, um, and I don't know what that again, I don't know what that will look like. Uh, I don't, I don't pretend to know. What that [00:42:00] means. But that is the feeling that I have. Um, and so then I think there'll probably be a lot of integration about like visibility and accountability and action, and like taking messy action.
And like the intention that I, with this new coach that I've signed up for, the intention of the work that I set with her is like, I need to let my body of work live outside my body.
Eva: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
Kyley: and like that's kind of like energetic and metaphorical and also tangible. So yeah, I think movement in all the ways is gonna be the thing that I'm in next, whatever that looks like and means.
Eva: Yeah, that's okay. That's interesting. There's a lot there that I can relate to. And I think my question for you, before I answer is like, does that feel like you feel like you've had, you've been in, do you feel like you've been in these phases before? Like does it feel different from past times?
Kyley: [00:43:00] Yeah, it does feel different because actually I feel like, um, in some ways the assignment, like the message that I've been getting is like you, I've had this feeling in my spiritual practice for a long time that's like, I was trying to get somewhere, I was trying to get somewhere, even as I was like, there's nowhere to get, but I kept having this.
Or even in like dreams or just like trying to get somewhere feeling, which is also a, trying to be somebody, like become some version of herself kind of. And lately I have instead had this feeling of like, this is it,
you're there. So like what are you gonna do with it?
Right? You are this version of yourself that you want, like something in which I think is really just probably something or some series of things inside of you that needed to feel like.
Sure to opt to feel like we are, quote unquote, there
have like landed, you
know, have integrated. And so now there's this message that's [00:44:00] like, tag you're it,
you know, like this, this is, this is the, and it, it doesn't feel so much like a message as just like this, like, I don't know. I don't have the same chasing feeling.
Eva: Mm-hmm.
Kyley: Kind of back to your point about ambition, I don't have the same chasing feeling, but I do have a like action feeling,
Eva: Mm-hmm.
Kyley: right? So it's like, okay, this is it. You've like become some iteration, you've crossed some, you've become some iteration that you were trying to become, and so what are you gonna do with it?
Eva: Yeah, yeah. I love that. Okay. So that's really interesting to me because you've always been, and I think, okay, you've always been someone isn't afraid to claim like
what you, what you think is gonna happen next. You know, or like what you're, what you're feeling, and I think you know this about me, and I think I share this with Nicholas, your, with Nick, your husband, that, I don't know if it's a Capricorn thing, but this idea of like, I [00:45:00] actually like to keep my cards close to my chest until things are like more developed within me before I like share with the world.
Kyley: Mm-hmm.
Eva: Does that, do you know what I mean?
Kyley: I do. Yes,
Eva: And so.
Kyley: we, and we've also had episodes, just sorry to jump in. We've also had moments where you're like, all these really cool, amazing spiritual things are happening, and I don't wanna talk about on the podcast because it's too, like,
it's too beautiful and in my heart and sacred, and so I don't wanna put words to it.
So yes, I think that is
Eva: I think I, and I do feel that a lot actually. And that's something that I have to like, contend with, with like being someone who like likes to just keep things for myself. And I don't, it just feels something about sometimes, sometimes, sometimes it isn't like this at all. Sometimes sharing actually solidifies and helps me integrate, but sometimes sharing sort of like diminishes something for me. And um, and so I'm just conscientious of that right now because I actually think I am. So, but to answer your question as best if I can, I think it makes sense for me to share [00:46:00] where I am right now, which is really interesting because I actually think that I've never been happier and I'm also lost.
Kyley: Yeah.
Eva: of lost, but not lost in like, but I think what I mean by lost is I feel like I'm in this new, new born phase little bit like a baby, and she's like about to be like born into this world in this new, in this new phase, but in the past, but there's no, um, resistance or like, uh, negative stories about that.
Maybe in the past I would've been like, oh, I should like to have it all figured out, or like, being in this unknown space feels bad or scary or dangerous or whatever. And I don't really feel that way. I think I'm in these past few months anyway, I've been sitting with like, it feels like something's percolating and something's coming and, and I have no idea what it is, and I'm just, it is, uh, kind of about the surrender
a little
Kyley: Yes.
Eva: But I actually think this is why, going back to what I said at the very top of the episode, I was like, have I learned anything? Have I changed? You know, it's because I [00:47:00] think the, what I'm, what I suspect. That I'm, what I'm suspect I'm going to be learning. And what what's coming up for me actually, and it feels very clear actually, is that it has something to do with being in my power more and creativity and expression. And the reason I say have I learned anything is 'cause I've like, well, these are all the same lessons I've been learning for a long time. You know,
but we've had conversations before, which have been so helpful for me to see, like, I can take that and make it mean like, oh, I'm just, I haven't learned anything.
But really what's happening is, as we've seen, is like you're just learning the same things over, but in a much deeper, deeper, deeper, deeper way. Or like spiraling down, down, down, down, down deeper. And so, you know, I could, I think like I feel con conscious of like saying that this is what I'm learning and I'm, but it, it may not sound different from my sound different, but I think this is my life path of
like coming into my [00:48:00] power and also self-trust and, um. And it's like, you know, if we started this podcast in 2019, well, I was like, it's like playing the piano or something, you know, I was just learning how to like use the keys and now it's like much richer and deeper. And now maybe I can play like a really beautiful classical, I don't know, sonnet or something.
And then once I reach, you know, 20 years from now I'm, you know, playing like Mozart or Beethoven or something, you know, it
Kyley: Or you'll go back to playing the scales because you'll realize that was the best part or whatever, right?
Yes. Yes. I think that's, I think that's a really apt, because what I was just describing about like the chapter that I feel myself stepping into, in some ways it does feel like, well, this is what I teach people.
This is what I've been this, this is like, this is, I could use similar words for how I felt when we started the podcast and how I felt when I left my job and started this full time and like [00:49:00] how I felt, you know, post breakup like that. It's like it is that same thing over and over again. But I think what I am relishing, which is like maybe what you're speaking to too, is like I feel more.
I feel more excited and more confident and more comfortable with the fact that I don't fucking know.
Eva: Yeah.
Kyley: it's like that, whereas in the past, I would be in this chapter of like, okay, we're gonna, there's like momentum and movement, and now we have to prove something and earn
something. Right? It's like, oh no, I'm, I'm, I'm, I'm back where I started, but this time I'm more comfortable, but I'm more comfortable because I just know that I don't fucking know.
And we're just gonna like, we're just gonna jump.
Eva: Yeah.
Yes. I will say one thing that I think this, if I had to make a prediction for what might. Becoming as we end this chapter, which is really interesting because this chapter has been a lot about, the podcast for me has been a lot about [00:50:00] expression, you
know, and I mean, come on, we do these two hour fucking conversations and it's like, whatever.
We just go on and on. And that's been so beautiful and helpful. But, um, but I feel like I've been quiet in all other areas. Like I used to post so much on Instagram, and it was like, and I was very visible and all of that has just like, dwindled down. And I see, and I keep feeling into like, okay, there's gonna be a next iteration of that.
I just don't know what it's gonna look like because I can't, I don't know, I don't know. Because of my interesting relationship with social media, I, you know,
I'm asking consciousness. I'm like, is there a different way in which you would like me to express? And if there is like, I'm open, you show me,
you know? Yeah. You can like reveal yourself to me.
Kyley: yeah, yeah. I also feel like I have loved in this way, the show is in some ways been this little bubble, like this little [00:51:00] cocoon
where we can come and have these rich and vulnerable and curious. Expansive conversations right in where, in the space where all the lots of other conversations are short snippets of
like a 92nd video and a, you know, Instagram carousel.
And here we're just like long and deep and wide and we're not trying to fucking make it fit into a tight thing, which is maybe why the show didn't blow up to be a bajillion to listeners and also who fucking cares.
Um, but like I, I have this feeling of like the gift that we have given ourselves to make this space where we didn't have to fit or make sense or, I mean, I think often some of our very best episodes between you and I where you and one of us would come and be like, I have this question that I don't know how to answer.
I have this thing that I keep stumbling into and like, help me unpack it. And we would just unpack it together.
Eva: Yeah.
Kyley: we let this be messy. I.
Eva: yes, and then [00:52:00] to my utter amazement and shock and glee is then when people would reach out and be like, then that episode helped me so much, you know, people coming along the ride for this like messy unraveling and understanding and what integration where people, like you said exactly what I was going through,
or, you know, like, like that experience really paralleled my own and that was really helpful for me and that's always really gratifying
to receive.
.
Yeah. Okay, so I have a question for you.
Along those same lines of what we've been talking about. You know, having done this podcast for so many years and been deep in this work, do you have any advice that you would offer to listeners about from what you've learned in this time?
Kyley: Um, I love this, and yes, but can I make you answer the question first?
Yes.
Eva: Yes. Okay. I have a very practical thing that I really wanna like share because it's been so helpful for me. And then I wanna see where we go. 'cause as you answer, I feel like it'll inspire more answers from me. But [00:53:00] I have loved giving myself permission to change my damn fucking mind
Kyley: Mm.
Eva: and, to explicitly say and like not be responsible for how other people take what I share.
Because then I end up editing myself a lot and censoring myself a lot because I am like in other people's business. But what I mean by that is it was a real revelation for me when I realized that like, I can make a recommendation for something. And then maybe two years later, just like, you know what, I don't actually like that anymore.
You know, like recommend like a book or like a, I don't know, some sort of healing modality or some teacher or whatever. And I maybe at the time I thought it was like the greatest thing in the world. And then in hindsight or just from experience or growth, I like changed my mind
and, and um, and to even say, and I have said to my clients to be like, take everything that I say with a grain of salt, dude, take everything that I say with a grain of salt.
Because I think what happens is [00:54:00] we live in a world of hierarchy. And when we live in a world where people are trying to get answers from outside, so then like we put all of this stock in other people, and sometimes people have put stock in me and I think Mm. And I wanna be careful about that. Like, I think there can be like mutual trust and understanding, but not when we are deferring to somebody else for the answers,
you know?
And I was always so afraid that maybe because people were deferring to me or it might take that like I. be wrong.
And right now I love being wrong. It's really nice being wrong. There's so much liberation in being like, I'm probably wrong about, I mean, just even through the course of this podcast is kind of why I bring this up.
When I look back, I'm like, there's so many things that I probably, you know, was learning and I giving myself the, the grace of being a human who is
learning, who doesn't have it all figured out and I've changed my mind about things. Or may maybe, you know, if I look, if I listen back, I'd probably hear a [00:55:00] bunch of things I don't agree with anymore. And I think as someone who wants to share their art and who wants to share their opinion and who wants to be expressive and just wants to be out in the world and visible, like we have to give ourselves permission to take it all back if we want.
Kyley: Yes. Okay. And related to that, I think I would add like, people love to see the behind the scenes, the mess, the like, like, you know, a metaphor I use a lot is like how life exists in the margins, you know, in the tide pools and in the like edges of the forest, in the meadow, like the, the. The messiness is where the life is.
And I think sometimes when people are, when we're trying to share because we wanna share our wisdom or because we're trying to share for marketing, it's like some aspects about marketing or because we're just whatever, whatever our motivation is. I think sometimes we feel this pressure to be like, okay, well I have this messiness, but now I've made it tidy [00:56:00] and I'll share the tidy
Eva: Oh,
100 or like, or I have the answer of, I figured it out.
Kyley: or I can't share because I can't make a tidy or I can't share because I don't have the answer
or, or I'm still living the question or, and you know, we and I have shared, you know, our philosophy from the very beginning has been like, it's not necessarily a kindness to our listeners to project our mess.
Or if something is too messy, you know, like I sent you a personal voice note the other day, which I was crying about. Something that is like, oh, it was alive that day. Like, that's not a podcast episode. 'cause it's too, too vulnerable. And also too like, um. I don't know too, there's like murky boundaries there.
Right. But, but to be willing to share yourself as a work in progress, I think is the way that I would say be willing to share yourself as a work in progress, because that's actually what people fucking want,
especially in the world of ai. I think it is even more so that we are like voraciously hungry for humans and [00:57:00] realness and like the per the permission to exhale because someone else is being real and so we can be real.
So like share, you are a work in progress forever.
Get, get used to it and be willing to share yourself as a work in progress if sharing is important to you.
Eva: Yeah. And I think why this speaks so much to me is because I had, I had and continue, it's still, it's still there for sure, but just this whole perfectionism thing is
like all of my safety was so tied up in perfectionism, you know? And, and because I was trying to avoid feeling shame
and so it's really good medicine for me.
It's like, it was really hard
to get to get there. And also it's been so good for me just to be like, 'cause I used to, like, if I were to talk about things I would wanna make amends for or things that I made mistakes.
Where I made a mistake and would like to go back. And if I could do it and do it better or do it better now, like I did show up online in the very beginning of like, I have it figured out.
Like I
have it figured out, you [00:58:00] know? And like I had a coach who told me that, you know, the way that she had sort of sold like this idea of like, people are buying you and so you, if you, you know, basically kind of like if you portray yourself, like having it all together and being like an influencer, you know, who has just like, oh, he has this like great life or whatever, people are gonna want that.
And so I was like, okay, well that's how I guess I have to make money. And now, and now it's what you're speaking to, which is like, just be a real ass human.
Kyley: Yes.
Interestingly, kind of for the same reason people are buying like you
in the sense of like they want what you've got, but what you've got is not that. It's perfect and all put together what you've got, especially because this is what your medicine is or what you've got is like, hey, what if you were lost and happier than you've ever been?
Right?
Eva: Yeah. Yeah, yeah,
Kyley: Yeah. Yeah.
So, yeah. 'cause I am lost, so I might as well be happy about it.
Eva: Yeah, just enjoy the ride. You know what I
mean? It's like, Yeah.
Where are we going? Yeah.
Kyley: I have another thing. Oh, go ahead. Sorry Lev.
Eva: [00:59:00] Oh, what was, what about you? What's something
Kyley: I have one other piece that I would share too, which you, we kind of alluded to earlier, but I think, um, be willing to be really honest with yourself about what your desires are and what your capacity is. This is like the behind the scenes part, right?
The like actually building of a creation or maintaining a creation because I think, you know. Where I had, where I ever experienced suffering in the creation of our podcast are the places where I was ignoring my own boundaries.
Right? Or, or, or not. They weren't even boundaries, but ignoring like what I actually had capacity for or what I actually wanted to be doing.
And I would, I would, and this is like, you know, a lesson I've learned in many places in my life, but like where, when the podcast has like hummed along and thrived, it's been the places where I could be. And you have often really helped me with this. Like, oh, I have capacity for A, but not B, C, or [01:00:00] D. And so then what does the project look like
honoring that? Because I think so often, and capitalism really teaches us this, we like think, well, I think it has to be A, B, C, or D, so, and I want the thing, so I have to just figure out a way to make it work. And then either we drop the ball or we. Don't drop the ball, but we selfa abandon in order to get there.
Right.
And we're like white knuckling our way through it. And I feel like all of my creative success when I have it, and, and which is to say like, when I'm creating and it feels fucking fun and alive and, um, it's when I'm honest with myself about what my capacity is and what my desire is, and then I really honor it.
Right. So it's like that's the, that's the, the balance of it. It's like, okay, no, I don't have capacity to do a bajillion things, but I can do these things and then I'm gonna really hold myself to do this thing that I said is important to me, which I can do. 'cause I didn't fucking overcommit by making it a hundred thousand [01:01:00] things.
Eva: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. So good.
Kyley: Yeah, because you just, yeah.
Yeah.
You just can't, otherwise, which I am constantly relearning.
Eva: And we've had episodes about that, where that's been challenging. It's been, there's grief in that you've actually, we've had, yeah. Beautiful
conversations. I'm remembering now about the grief of accepting that that's true, that. There's a beauty. And finally just, you know, getting clear on what your desires are and knowing what your capacity is.
But sometimes when you have to meet your capacity and you're like, I don't really have time. I, I wanna do 10 beautiful fucking things, but I only have time for two.
There's grief in that sometimes. And then to,
again, going back to like being with your feelings and your beliefs and your emotions and the sensations of what that means, and the frustration and the anger, because that's also what comes up a
lot when we are being like, honest about our capacity. Okay. I wanna share another thing that just came up that I realized I've learned and I'm still continuing to learn, but has been helpful. As I remember when we were first starting recording, [01:02:00] we were, someone was coming on who had a very like social justicey lens of things. Maybe it was Leah Garza or someone.
And I remember being nervous. I was, think, I'm thinking about like what conversations was I nervous to have. And I, I had this story in my head that like, I'm not like. Woke enough or educated, like, I'm not up on like the politics enough. I'm not in social, just like social, the justice, social justice world enough.
And therefore I think I was self-conscious about saying the wrong thing or not knowing enough and, and also because like it's, I think it's better now, but you know, there we still do live in a world of like cancel culture and this idea of like, you know, if you don't, it, it, it's a very vi cancel culture is like very violent, you know?
And it's like, anyway, I just remember being like nervous about those conversations and um, just seeing [01:03:00] how kind people are, like if you don't know something you can ask and people aren't gonna hunt you down with a stick.
Do you know what I mean? And like, just, it's good to have those conversations and I think a lot of, I don't think I'm alone with people who are like. I wanna be able to have these conversations. But they're uncomfortable basically. They're uncomfortable and they're hard and um, and there is like a fragility too, you know, like feeling, like, feeling like you're own fragility of like, oh, what if I say the wrong thing and I'm just gonna go down a shame spiral. And that's like a really good opportunity to learn also how to deal with shame. So I think
I'm really grateful for that experience. And I guess the advice is just like, have the conversation, but trust people are kind, and people are
kind. They're not trying to hunt you down,
like, they're not your enemy.
And like, it's okay to be vulnerable and like say that you don't know or ask the question or whatever, and that's how you learn.
Kyley: And I think if the conversation that you're feeling [01:04:00] afraid of is in any way related to privilege, you know, if part of your nervous is 'cause you have privilege, I think privilege and shame are really interwoven. Like I think we are on some level. Like I, I actually think that like, white supremacy is a lot about shame.
Like we are on some level aware of the privilege that we have. And then, um, like just picking, I say white s 'cause like one of the most violent ways that privilege shows up, right? But like, like I think, I think when we have privilege, some part of us is aware of that privilege and then feels fucking bad about it.
And then that, that feeling of bad, instead of being like accountability and grace and spaciousness gets turned into shame, which I think is like another way, the whole system keeps feeding off of this, right? Like, oh, are you aware of your privilege? Well now you feel like an asshole for it and so
haha, you're now like still can't do anything.
You're still lost in the shame instead of taking action. And so I just feel like, um, yeah, like, like trust that people are kind and [01:05:00] also like love on the part of you who feels shame around some of these really more painful or complicated conversations and like. Know that uns shaming is like, I don't know, part of our, part of the process.
And so resource yourself for the fact that shame is gonna come up as you try to, like, unlearn
your privilege or engage with the, like, I don't know, atrocities of the world.
Eva: Yep. Yeah.
Wow. All right. I mean, I feel like we're coming up towards the end
and I wanna know. Yeah. So yeah, let's, exactly. Yeah.
Like, let's, uh, anything else that you wanna share before we jump into our last round of joy?
Kyley: Yes. I have one more thing because I have, because I had a very public breakup, uh, with a business partner. And because you and I have had this like very long standing rich partnership, I have people pretty regularly come to me asking me questions about partnership, you
know, and like, oh, okay. I'm, I'm, I think I'm gonna start a business with my [01:06:00] friend.
And what advice do you have? Or I might start a podcast, what advice do you have? And I will say the number one thing, if you are. First of all, I think creating with a friend is a lot more fun. Even, even though one of them fucked me up and broke my heart, still no
ies, you know? Um, but I, and I think you have to be willing to trust in your partner's kindness and say the fucking thing and like, be honest with yourself and be honest.
Yeah. Be honest with yourself and honest with your partner about what you wanna make and when something isn't working and when you might have an idea that's like half flushed out. Like,
like really being willing to be honest with yourself and your partner is just so vital because any creative partnership is like a balance and a dance.
And there's gonna be moments where it needs to pivot and it needs to change, or you've changed, or the project is changing or your partner is changing. And if you can't be [01:07:00] honest with yourself and your partner, then. The natural ebb and flow will be full of a lot of friction instead of this like really beautiful dance that I think you and I have gotten to experience and we'll continue in our future dance, whatever it looks like.
And so, you know, really make a commitment to yourself and your partner that you're gonna be honest.
'cause you will be better for it.
Eva: Yeah, I mean, to be honest, it feels like that's great advice for any relationship. You know,
a friendship. It's like, it's like, but the point that I'm trying to make is like these work relationships that we have should be treated with as much reverence as like, you know, love and partnership, relationship, friendships and love.
Relationships are all the same. I think they can be very sacred, like
grounds for learning a lot about ourselves and communication and trust and Yeah, and creativity together and yeah. But communication is big and I'm really right now at this moment, just. Odd in this conversation that we've had has, has shown me [01:08:00] just how many different areas of everything that we've touched on in these past.
I mean, yeah, we've had many years to do it, but like not only have we had these amazing guests talk about like the esoteric arts from like, and then going to non-duality and nature and like motherhood and fashion, like we've just gone the gamut. We've also just had like, it's just encompassed, encompassed so much.
We've talked about social justice and our own re our own relationships with our partners. And so everything that's so much that has gone on in our lives. You know, we cross country moves and moves for me move, moving to Brazil and all the different like work projects that, you know, we've put out.
Especially you like just one thing, one big idea after another. You know, I think I'm just struck right now by like the richness and the depth of what we've been able to capture together
these past few years. Hmm. It's so sad. It's like so bittersweet, you know?
Kyley: I know,
I know. And I am so humbled and grateful to all the [01:09:00] people who have like been on this journey with us. Whether you listen to one episode or all the episodes and the guests who came on and shared themselves. So like fucking exquisitely. The support that we've had on this show, Jennifer, our amazing fucking editor, the various different people that we've had being our like virtual assistant behind the scenes.
Right now it's Jenna. We've had a whole team of different people throughout the years. Like
Eva: Yeah. Who really make the podcast possible because it wasn't for them. Like it wouldn't this, this, show wouldn't come out.
Kyley: yeah.
Eva: Yeah.
Kyley: And like, I just, it's, I'm, I'm really humbled by what this gift has been. Oh, I just hit my hand so fucking hard.
Wait, I have one more thing. I wanna say
Eva: yeah.
Kyley: one more thing I wanna say
Eva: She got
really excited folks. Kyley got
Kyley: I am just like, you never know until you ask.
Eva: Mm.
Kyley: people that we've had on this show that we've been like.
Wait, what they actually said yes [01:10:00] to us. You
know, that like then have been like our, like friends over the years that were, you know, we've just had some fucking amazing guests on this show with like much bigger platforms than us that have come on and just like, we've like all cried together. And even the very beginning, I still remember I was at the pool with my kids and I had like a little birdie was a little baby.
And you and I had reconnected after we hadn't really connect. Talked in a year. And we both had this like nascent idea of doing a podcast. And I still remember like, I'm just gonna tell her about this weird idea that I have.
and and this show wouldn't even exist if we didn't have the audacity. Have the audacity.
That's my final bit of advice. Have the
fucking audacity.
Eva: the audacity. I love that. Yep. Okay. And I've seen that over and over again in other areas, which is like people. It's okay to ask. It's just
okay to ask and they can say no. Yeah. Um, what do you think? Is it a, is it time for our final round of joy?
Kyley: Do
you? Do you feel complete? Is
there any [01:11:00] final thing you want to say about the themes and gift of Hello Universe?
Eva: No, I think my theme, my, the theme that I wanna highlight is gonna be my joy. I'm gonna try and do a two for one.
Kyley: Okay.
Okay. All right.
Eva: Um, anything else? I don't know. I'm sure there's gonna be a bunch of other things I would've loved. I'll love to say later, you know, but for right now, I think, I don't know. Does this feel like a, I almost wanna check in, like, does this feel like
Kyley: I
think there's no way to succinctly sum up. A six plus year creative project. And so much like just the other day we were like, wait, are we really gonna be done? I
think, oh, I'm gonna kind of tears in my eyes as I say this. I think, um, no, it's this, it's not like this conversation can't end. And also we just have to pick a spot in which we shift to our round of
Eva: Yeah. And I think I, I think I'm just really, what I'm feeling is like when, before I, we started recording and now like, I'm just feeling so much gratitude, like so grateful that we got to do this [01:12:00] together. And it feels like the show took care of us, you know, like you said, and it, it, like what we, like watched us grow up together in some ways and, and I'm so proud of us and I feel so fortunate for this friendship that we've been able to develop.
And so I'm just filled with like joy, really. Um, yeah, joy and gratitude. And if there are any tears, it's just love, you know.
Kyley: Yeah. Um, wouldn't be an episode if Kyley didn't cry, but, um, Eva, you've changed my life.
Eva: Oh my goodness.
Kyley: You have changed my life. You have changed my life in ways that I couldn't even begin to articulate. And, um, this show has been this like, just like this loving, exquisite space for us to love each other and become best friends. And, [01:13:00] you know, the number of times we've come on and one of, we had to like, not record.
'cause one of us was like, wait, we need like, you know,
deep emotional repair and the number of times that we've like, pushed each other in, like, into curious exploration and just the way that we've gotten to love each other. And, um, yeah, like. My life is so much richer, so much richer for you being in it and the show, being the place where that got to happen.
And I just love you.
Eva: I know. And I love the shit out of you. Okay, wait. Which is why it's so good folks that this isn't the end. So we haven't even made that clear. This is actually, well, like you said, it's the end of something in the beginning of beginning of something else. And so there, Kyley and I are gonna continue to work together a lot just because we love each other so much and we want each other in each other's lives.
But, but there will be ways to work with us and you can, there's a link in the show notes where you can sign up for our newsletter and find out about what's next. So if you want a little bit more of us in your [01:14:00] lives, we're here.
Kyley: yes, yes. More to come. More to come. Joy, do you
Eva: yeah.
Kyley: bringing you Joy right now?
Eva: Ugh. Oh my God. I mean, the feelings are so ugh, big right now.
You know? It's like feeling the sensations and I, the, I wanna do a twofer, which is like the thing that I wanna share is my joy is also, I think one of the themes the. Foundational themes of the podcast that we haven't yet touched on, which is the theme of friendship and like, friendship's a big ass deal.
Y'all. Friendship is like, it's talk about like a medicine. Friendship for me is a lifeline. You know, it's like, you know, you're talking about how I've changed your life. You've just been like this solid, reliable fucking pillar that I, that it's been like, sometimes it feels like you've been holding me up, you know, like, like you've just been holding me up, like through some really beautiful times and some really fucking hard times and some really scary times.
And all of these big transitions and [01:15:00] all of my, like, you know, you're just like my biggest cheerleader. You, you feel like you s you know, when I don't see myself and when I'm clouded in insecurity and self-doubt, you just come in and, um, so generously uplift and support me. And, and I think, yeah, friendship is like. I think people have had a chance to witness our friendship, which is like really sweet and special. But just the theme of like, friendship is one of like God's gifts to humans that we get to experience. It's not a love relationship, you know? It's sometimes better than a love relationship.
Kyley: Yeah.
Eva: you get to have the intimacy. Oh my God. And not just like friendships, but like girl friendships.
Girl friendships are so fucking good, dude. Girl friendships are the best. And the fact that I get to have a friend who's like so insightful and who's also a little psychic and who can, you know, can kind of tell me like what she thinks is up like so fucking valuable.
And, um, I just don't know where I'd be without you. Kyley. [01:16:00] I'd
be very, very lost and I'm so fucking grateful for you. So grateful.
Yeah.
Kyley: Same. Same. Same. Same.
Eva: So yeah, joy is Girl, friendship and this podcast into you. All right. I throw it over to you, my friend. What's one thing that's bringing you joy? It doesn't have to be podcast related.
Kyley: Yeah, this past weekend was my daughter's birthday party with all her little friends, and I actually repeatedly had that moment seeing her with her friends and just being like, God, I love being a woman. And I, I say that even her little like boyfriends, I like, you know, friends were boys. I like, they get included in that, you know, like just this way of like, oh, I just see her friendship already has this, like, just this richness of like love and intimacy and care.
That is so true of my experience as a, as a woman in the world. And I love, I just love seeing her with her like pack of friends
Eva: Mm-hmm.
Kyley: playing [01:17:00] zombie cats at the bouncy houses.
Eva: I have to say, that's one thing that I love about being a woman that I feel like we are, we're, we are really lucky. 'cause it's not always, not often the same.
Kyley: Yeah.
Eva: men, but it's the richness and the depth and the care and the, of these silliness and the vulnerability of like female friendships.
Kyley: Ugh. Yeah,
yeah.
Yes, yes, actually. And I'm gonna, yeah. Let that be my joy. 'cause yesterday, uh, this weekend was my daughter's birthday, and then yesterday I had to do errands. And one of my best friends who lives near me came and just like did errands with me to prep for my trip. And we were just like sharing our hearts and drinking ice coffees and doing the co co-mingling.
And then I got to have dinner with my, like, oldest best friend and her, um, guy. She's been seeing who I adored. And so that was also just this like, you know, and we were just like, like making fun of each other and he was just like going along with it great. You know?
Anyways, so yeah.
It's, it's, and [01:18:00] now you and I are doing this and so, yeah.
Let's, I'm gonna also share the joy of just fucking friendship. Friendship.
Eva: Yeah. Thank God for fucking friendship, dude. I'm so grateful. Oh, I'm so grateful for you and I'm so grateful for everybody who's listened. And yeah, if you'd
like to, you know, tune in more with whatever we're doing next, sign up for in the link in the show notes and you can know where to find me and Kyley on Instagram.
Kyley: and we'll see you somewhere.
Eva: Yeah, we love you. I.