Eva and her long-term partner have split, and she shares with us—with the depth of wisdom, grace, and self-reflection you would expect. This one is juicy and heartfelt.
Eva and her long-term partner have split, and she shares with us—with the depth of wisdom, grace, and self-reflection you would expect. This one is juicy and heartfelt.
Join the FLOW waitlist to get early bird pricing
Book a discovery call with Eva
Kyley's Instagram: @kyleycaldwell
Join Kyley’s Facebook group: Monsters & Magic
Grab your ticket for Magic Circle
128 - the breakup episode with kyley & Eva
Eva: [00:00:00] hey everyone, it's Eva here.
Kyley: It's Kylie.
Eva: We're back for another episode of Hello Universe.
Kyley: Hello Universe. I dunno, I didn't have a sound effect.
Eva: Um, this week we're gonna talk all about my breakup with my partner, right? Uh, but before we do that, I kind of wanted to share a little bit about what we're working on first. , before we dive into the tea, before we spill the tea.
Kyley: Right. We will, uh, we're gonna, we're gonna like run, run, court, run normal course, [00:01:00] but uh, we'll keep it short and sweet. Um. Yeah. Eva, what's cracking in coaching world?
Eva: So for people who've heard me talk about flow, this is for you. If you are someone who wants to change your relationship with doing and come into more being. If you are constantly stressed out by your to-do list and you're like, What the fuck is this? I know that this is A better way to live.
If you're someone who is typically really ambitious, um, and has to live the hustle life, but, uh, you're actually kind of seeing that that's not actually bringing you the fulfillment that you want. Or actually conversely, if you're someone who's like, has a really hard time getting things done simultaneously, like that's, that's also my story.
But honestly, always oftentimes sends stems from like the same root problem. This idea of like overwhelm or stress or the pressures of capitalism, which then overwhelm us, which then make me feel, make us feel like we can't do anything at all. It's just this like, Hamster [00:02:00] wheel cycle that we are ready to get off of.
Um, and to use, for me, I think like my healing, my relationship with productivity was a huge portal into spiritual awakening because like, whatever it is, your thing is that's bringing you suffering is the thing that's gonna help you heal spiritually. So Kylie, you help a lot of people with money cuz that's like one of, that's like, that's like probably
Kyley: A constant teacher for
Eva: Yeah.
but also like at the top of the list for so many people.
Um, love is another big one. Um, and I really do think our relationship with doing and how we are walking through the, our day every single day, stressed out about and like squeezed. I think by and measuring our self-worth and our success by like how much we do. This is another portal for a lot of people. Um, there is a wait list going on right now. There is a link in the show notes, uh, that's just for people who wanna get on the early bird list to get some of the early details, the, [00:03:00] uh, early to bird specials, yada, yada, yada. You can, um, sign up for that in the link below.
Kyley: get on it people.
Eva: Cool. Um, what about you my friend?
Kyley: yeah. So doors are open for sovereign sales. This is the course that if you were listen to, the podcast was once called, Fearless was once called Sovereign, and now for Real, has a real official name, which is sovereign sales. Um, and, uh, It's been really fun birthing it and also just like doing the, you know, promotion for it.
Because what I realized, so the whole course is about like, how do you sell in a way that just feels really fun? Um, and how do you embody your, how do you like learn in the building blocks so that you can embody your own version of it? And as I say on times, you always live, but you're birthing. And so, um, it's been this really fun experience of like, Oh, how do I wanna sell this?
Which turns out I just wanna like, teach a whole bunch. Like that's how excited I am to run this program is that I'm just like, You have another free workshop. Have another free workshop. Because, [00:04:00] um, it's really fucking fun to teach this stuff. But the long short of it is if you are a business owner and you have this sense of like, okay, money comes in randomly, right?
Like, I, I don't, I just, I'm out there, I'm making posts and sometimes people will message me and sometimes they don't, and I can't really, I feel like I have no control, Right? It's that idea of like, I'm kind of just. In, in perpetual surrender mode, but surrender without any sense of like, clarity or like, Right.
I believe that we can have, we can surrender to our own power and our power can give us greater access to surrender to the universe, Right? That the two can actually work hand in hand anyway. So if you are a business owner and um, and action doesn't feel clear or the actions that you're taking don't feel sovereign, meaning they're full of hustle, they feel like someone else's strategy and you're constantly burning out and crashing, um, if you feel like you're following someone else's pain by numbers approach, but it's not working.
So I think those are the three big things. [00:05:00] If you're trying someone else's method, it's not working probably cuz it's not your method. Um, if you're just getting burnt out from like constantly having to overgive because it's the only model you have if you're hiding. Because sell actively selling feels really icky and manipulative and you're afraid of being too much.
It doesn't need to be the case at all. Um, or if you're just like, Constantly in the state of like, I don't know what's gonna work and so I'm just gonna keep drawing. But sometimes it works and sometimes it doesn't.
Eva: Yeah. And there's no like consistency or sense of agency there.
Kyley: it's, yeah, it's really the sense of agency, right? Cause consistency for me looks like I do a big lunch and then I take a nap, right?
It's not consistency of like every month I make the same amount of money, but that's also, I work better that way. Right? I like big energy and then need a nap. So, So it's like understanding your own rhythm and then building a strategy that supports that. Cuz when I've tried to do my, I've tried them before where it's like, Oh, I'm gonna just sell the same thing and I gonna make something consistent.
I just like wanna shivel up and die
Eva: Mm-hmm.
Kyley: as [00:06:00] does my revenue . Yeah. Yeah. So, um, and for those of you who don't know, um, when we first started recording this podcast, I was a sales director. So I have been doing this shit for a long, long, long, long time. And, um, I'm, one of the things I really love about this is it feels.
More than anything I've stepped into before. Like all these different parts of me are showing up here, right? Like I've held off, as I said before, I held off on teaching strategy for a long time because I think people tend to feel like, Oh, my business coach taught me this, so I have to do it right. And the whole thing that I want is for you to have agency for you to feel powerful in your own business.
Like, you know how to be the captain of the ship. And so if that is what you're hungry for, um, come join us. It's four months. We're gonna do a mini launch in the middle of the course. So you're basically gonna make your money back before the course is even over. Yeah, I'm really, I'm really jazzed about that.
So you can also test it out and be like, Oh, turns out I hated that approach. It made money, but I didn't enjoy it or whatever. [00:07:00] So anyway, it's gonna be really a place for taking action. Um, so if it resonates with you, Um, go to my website, shoot me a message if you wanna talk it through to see if it's right for you.
Um, I've also been one last thing I'll say, and then we can move on. I've also been really intentional about pricing this because, um, I think everyone's stressed out. There's all this rumbling in the background about recession. Everyone's like, I think feeling a lot of constraint. And I've been having so many conversations about like, the pyramid scheme of online business coaching and I just was like, you know what?
Fuck, I don't wanna, I like actively don't wanna charge a lot of money for this program. I mean, the, you know, fishing enter bucks is not a small amount of money, but it's also for a four month program when it's gonna like, set you up to make a shit load of money. Like,
Eva: a steel.
Kyley: It's a seal and I feel, and I, I basically cut in half what the price that I was gonna charge.
Cuz I was just like, I'm actually just [00:08:00] more excited to have people in and for people to feel agency than I am to be like, I made maximum dollars. Um, nothing against making maximum dollars, but when I just really sat with it, I just like, I just feel excited. Yeah. And I just feel like, um, I don't want everyone to feel like scared and stuck,
Eva: Mm-hmm. . Yeah. I get that. That's how I've been, Yeah. I,
Kyley: Yeah.
But maybe time I teach it, I'll want maximum dollars, so you should sign up this time around.
Eva: Wait, say that again.
Kyley: I said maybe next time I teach it I'll want maximum dollars,
Eva: yep. That's true.
Kyley: No promises. But,
Eva: a really good point.
Kyley: yeah, so I'm really excited.
Eva: I, I'm super excited.
too. Like, you know, you've heard, I, I've, I've said already a million times that like I, um, have historically when I was first starting out, like guilty of all of those things, and I think what you're gonna teach is just gonna help a lot of people.
Kyley: I'm super, I mean, you have helped me birth this [00:09:00] in really, really tremendous
Eva: Small. I would say s small, small, small ways. but I think if you could talk to
Kyley: were tremendous.
Eva: I
Kyley: was this one off record conversation that we had like, that we didn't record in which Eva basically we were like, we were prepping, just, I'm just gonna share this real briefly. Um, we were preparing to like, write these letters to promote ourselves to be guests on other podcasts.
And even notice this one little thing that she was like, Well, you seem like you're kind of like, like separating like the business you and the like infinite you like, do they need to be separate? And it like the whole Dan bro, we just talked for like 90 minutes. I got this wild coaching session from Eva and it was like just the whole damn broken side of me and everything was different after that.
So
Eva: Well, I'm so, I'm so happy because like that's people, if you're interested in the course, like this is where Kylie's magic is, is that like, I love a logical down to earth. Person teaching style. Like that's just my jam cuz there's a part of me that [00:10:00] wants to have like the strategy and understand that.
And then I also want the mystical and I want the understanding of how also none of this is real. And I feel like you are just so, um, I think you've had the experience to be able to teach both.
Kyley: Yeah. And I think it, for a while I've been running my business, having access to both, but I couldn't figure out how to like teach it,
Eva: it. Yeah. Which is why this is cool. Cuz like you were saying, this is the, it does feel like the culmination of own lived experience,
Kyley: Yeah, yeah. And like when I was doing my first workshop for this, I felt so jazzed because I was like, It felt so effortless to swing back and forth between like pricing strategy and also pricing strategy from like an embodied, sovereign perspective and also what, you know, what uh, kind of more traditional strategy might like.
Right. It just felt really obvious to me how much they all just flow back and forth. It no longer felt like, okay, let put on this hat I, lemme put on this hat. So, which just means [00:11:00] more of me gets to show up and that's always more fun. So
Eva: Better for
Kyley: I would be brief and I failed. As soon as I say I will be brief, everyone just starts laughing cuz that's not, never happens.
Eva: Same. You know, that I can't leave of short boxer messages to save my life. So, um, Alright, well how can people
Kyley: Oh. Just kylie caldwell.com Um, door closed before Thanksgiving, so get on it.
Eva: Oh, that's coming up folks.
Kyley: Yeah, yeah, So hop in, in and, um, you should also just, if you wanna talk it out, just shoot me a message.
Eva: Yeah. I always think that's the best way. It's just like, let's have a conversation about it and see cuz you'll tell people if it's the right fit or not.
Kyley: Ab, I, I love telling people not to sign up . Right. Cause it's really clear for me, like,
Eva: Who you want and you wanna be able to help the people who you can help.
Kyley: Exactly. Right. Like, someone messaged me and they have, um, like an Etsy store, and I was like, I, I'm sure that we could figure out some things that might help you, but like, it's not, it's really for online coaching healing and like fewer of a business of [00:12:00] healer coach or like a service provider, like a copywriter.
Um, so anyways, there are things that like, I would love to be helpful, but I'm not the right fit for you. And I will, I will tell you that. So, you know. All right. Anyway, enough about me.
Um, okay. So as we hinted at the top of the show, uh, you, my friend, have been going through a pretty epic life transition and you are ready to share it here on the show.
So, uh, oh my God. All of a sudden I feel like Oprah or something, like it's been all over the tabloids and we're ready now. Sit on the couch. Let's, he, let's, let's hash it.
Eva: right. Well, it feels like a big deal to me, obviously, because this is what I've been, the soup I've been swimming in for the past couple of months, and I feel like I've actually, I've like hinted at it.
on the podcast here and there being like, I keep being like, Oh, I'm going through this thing.
Kyley: There's totally listeners right now who are like, I fucking knew
Eva: Yeah, exactly. Exactly. And so I feel like, okay, like I can, for me anyway, it,
finally feels like I can talk [00:13:00] about this thing, which feels really cathartic and Um,
obviously there's no one else. I would rather talk about it. Share it with, with you, with you
Kyley: well, I'm honored as I, Yeah. Um, honored to hold space and I I mean, I think, Do you wanna just share sort of, so you're going, you and Adam been together for five years?
Eva: Yeah.
Kyley: And you've known each other since you were babies in college. Um, and, and you're, and you're separating, so that's pretty fucking big
Eva: Yeah. Yes. I will say, um, I shared it like off, off the record before we started recording. I was like, it's not, it's not that the breakup is like that, you know, that big of a deal to share. I'm like, I have, I wanna share to share my experience for specific reasons, um, to talk to I think the person who might be going through something [00:14:00] similar.
Um, and so to start, I guess a little bit of background information, uh, Adam, I mean this is like the most, Adam was my person, meaning I thought we weren't married because I never, that part wasn't really as important to me. But like in my mind, the idea was that this was, and how we talked about our lives was that we were essentially married and going to be together basically for forever.
Um, and,
part of the reason this was a really difficult situation is because Adam struggles with depression and just like some mood disorders and. Um, that made it really hard. Yeah.
Really. Like, that was the main reason actually for our split and a lot of back and forth of being like, okay, um, how do you split with someone when they're struggling?
And I think I wanna have the conversation for anyone who, who's in that position, whether or not, And I, and, [00:15:00] and I've talked about this before because I think this is something I felt strongly about my entire life because my mother was also sick, and so my dad was the caretaker. So like I have a lot of compassion for the person who plays the caretaker role, rather romantic or not.
And like, it's the role of like, and, and this is, I think, universally important because this is the human experience. This is the human condition. We, every single one of us, none of us are immune to the experience that is eventually gonna happen, whether or not we get sick or someone else gets sick, so we are being taken care of, or someone else is gonna, or we will be taken care of someone.
And it's kind of like, Probably gonna happen both ways in through various parts of our lives. So, and it doesn't, I guess it doesn't have to be like your, your, your partner, your, uh, boyfriend, girlfriend. It can be like a parent that you're taking care of. Even like if you're a parent or a parent that you're taking care of, or, or if you're a parent and you're taking care of someone who, like a child who's a grown adult who struggles with addiction, like that's another really hard spot that [00:16:00] people are often in.
Um, fucking sucks. It's hard
Kyley: Well, and I think if I can like witness back, I think what one of the things that feels, um, I don't know, shitty tender about , what you, what you've been through is the way in which, like, obviously every relationship, there's like a back and forth care taking, right? There's never like a 50 50 split in relationship.
It's always like, this week it's 60 40. This week it's 70 30, right? Like there's always some ebb and flow. And um, I think with like good communication and mutual love, the idea is like, well, okay, the, like, the tides go back and forth enough that everyone feels, no one feels everyone's getting what they need and
Eva: Yeah.
Kyley: And I think that what feels like it was both hard to walk through and also hard to make a decision about, uh, is like the tide always had to be in one direction. [00:17:00] That just was the kind of, that was the like, Requirement. Um, despite everyone's best fucking efforts, um,
Eva: yeah,
That's a really, I think that that's when it becomes, I think, problematic is that when there is, when it doesn't feel like, um, in the long run for, I will speak for myself in the long run, it just felt like my needs could not get met. Like, like to No fault of Adams. Like that's the thing. It was, it wasn't like, Fault.
There was actually not even, like, there's no blame. Like that's, And so, and also, and, and that's like what makes it so difficult is Like it would be so much easier if I could blame someone. Do you know what I mean? And, and cause it would be so much more black and white. Like, or, or like, if you were just a shitty partner and you didn't treat me well, it would be, um, you know, no brainer decision for me to be like, uh, I don't be whatever.
This is a bad, toxic
Kyley: Like [00:18:00] it's helpful to have a villain, right? It makes a kind of like clarity of, Yeah. There was one point when we were talking about this off record, uh, like you keep using off the record as soon off recording. Um, and you were saying how like, you know, a generous hearted, the whole experience of separating has been and how grateful you are for that.
And I also remember saying like, Oh, that also seems like it fucking sucks. Like that feels like it's, there's like a real difficulty there, right? Because if everyone can turn into the villain, like I watch sometimes people are separating, they turn each other into the villain to make it easier, right?
Because it is so hard to push away from this person that you have tremendous love for. Um, and, uh, and so I mean, I, I guess if I can ask a question, what was it that helped you go from. Okay. This person that I love is, you know, like these are their limitations and I love that, and we've all been aware of that and there's great [00:19:00] communication and whatnot to like realizing, oh, this is actually something that's unsustainable and I have to make a difficult decision.
Eva: Um, oh my God, that is a really good question. I don't even know if we would like, have time to talk about, because I, I feel like I can't talk about that without telling a whole long ass story. So let me think about that. So I'll try to tell this succinctly, like the important parts. I'm like, what's important about this story? I think it was, um, putting push to the edge. So basically having a, what do you call it? Not like a rock bottom. You know how people oftentimes talk about how like, oh, oh, like you make your rock bottom is a great catalyst for change, which I think is true.
It wasn't that we hit a rock bottom, but we hit like a really, really hard time in our relationship where Oh, I know what it was. Okay.
This is, I think, important for people to hear is that the story that Adam and I were both holding onto from a place of like such love and hope was that like, this will be, like this will eventually [00:20:00] change.
Like things will get better.
Kyley: Yeah.
Eva: And that's a tricky thing because you wanna have hope, but also. When does hope become delusion? Like you're, you're holding onto something that instead of in a, in a healthy way, instead of maybe just accepting
Kyley: this is what
Eva: this is what is
which is often always like really the most helpful thing.
And so, but we were in a place which is always hoping and changing that things would change. Would, Yeah.
Hoping that things would change. And I had that like, Uh,
wake up call. That's what it was. It wasn't a rock bottom, it was a wake up call of like, wait, wait, wait. Okay. I have to accept that. Like, cuz he was getting a lot of different treatments, trying all these different medication.
Like really trying. I mean this boy was, um, what's the word I'm looking for?
Kyley: showing the fuck
Eva: yeah. exactly. Showing the fuck up, like doing all the things and, um, and then, Yeah. [00:21:00] and I just, so, so it was really that moment of, of, of being like, okay, I need to accept what is, And that was like, Heartbreaking, like gut wrenching.
Um, so there was that. And then also, and this is one piece that I wanted to talk about was like, I finally got support, the support that I needed, which was like Adam And I were both in this really complicated situation of being like, we love each other so much and um, there's so much care here. There's so much goodness here.
Which was also what made it so confusing because there were so many parts of our relationship that worked really well and that were really beautiful. And so, and then I just remember, like, we were sitting on the couch and I was like, Wait a second, we don't know. We are out of our depth. Like we don't have the life experience to know how to handle this like that.
It was just like a. that didn't feel like a defeat. It felt like, oh my god. Relief. Because it was like, wait, we don't need to figure this out. I'll bother by ourselves. Like, I don't know how to figure this out. I have never been in this experience before where I'm in [00:22:00] love with a person who's also really struggling and he's, and he doesn't know what to do.
He's struggling, He doesn't know how to support me. Like we just, we literally do not have this skill. and, and so like that, uh, awareness.
Kyley: of you guys in this like teeny little dinghy in the middle of the ocean that's like, like, that's unsu. You can't cross an ocean in a dinghy. You know, like that's unsustainable. Maybe in a fleet of dinghies or something, You know what I mean? Like Yeah. Get your support.
Yeah. Yeah.
Eva: And just like, basically it was that moment of looking up and realizing that we were in a dingy, in the middle of the ocean, where previously I think we kept, I don't know, like, I don't know what, we just thought that like we were, we were trying all these other things and we thought those things would work and they didn't.
So anyway, point being, uh, we got a couple therapists, which I was so excited about. Cause I think, Kylie, you've probably heard me say on the show before. I've always wanted to go to couples therapists. I get excited about therapy and even when Adam and I first started dating five years ago, I told him, I was like, We are gonna go to couples therapy one day because I want to, because I think it's gonna be exciting [00:23:00] and fun and I regret not going Well, that's not true.
Why isn't it, I regret not going earlier. But it's not that we didn't go earlier, is that we tried to find some, we, we worked with someone and she's such ass
Kyley: yeah,
Eva: that's always, it's hard, right? Like you, have to unfortunately kind of really make the effort to find someone
Kyley: Just so you all know, there's a future episode scheduled where Kylie Neva just talk about how much they love their therapists and therapy in general. So don't worry guys. It's coming.
Eva: Yes. Yeah. Cuz we've, we've talked about like how we love Yeah.
That we both got back into therapy and how it's been super helpful. Um, So God like yeah, it is about,
Kyley: So there was this mo, sorry. So just so there was this moment of realizing like, This might like this is I need to accept this as it is right now. As like the possible forever as opposed to, you know, like really holding onto this idea of like, [00:24:00] well, it's gonna change what? It's gonna change. Well it's gonna change.
And that being a wake up call to what exactly, If you don't mind me
Eva: Oh, actually, and also, sorry. So the wake up call was also like, I think it was the admission that I didn't, like I had to hit a limit. Like I didn't know if I could do this forever, and I didn't. That's the thing about life is that you don't know like what your limit is until you've reached it. And so that, and okay, so there's, there's another future podcast where we talk to, um, an author.
Melanie Bie, who she talks, she's like an expert in codependency, and she just said something like, You just have, like, you have your own limit. You get to decide and you get to decide your limit. There is no right or wrong limit, and no one else is gonna know your limit except for you. And so, um, yeah.
Kyley: can I add something to that too, which is just in observing you in that, in that, as that was happening, um, it felt like also [00:25:00] when you hit that limit, there was a way that you gave yourself permission to ask what you really wanted.
Eva: Mm-hmm.
Kyley: Right? Because when it was like, Okay, well something will change and then the, the change is gonna be what I want.
And so then when you were standing in the place of like, it could be that nothing changes and now I have to ask myself a really fucking scary question, which is like, What do I actually want? And is it this, if this doesn't change and I just wanna like, acknowledge that, I think that's, I don't, I know it didn't feel brave to you because you're like, Well, I've hit my limit and I do what I have to do at limits.
But also, like, I think your willingness to recognize a limit and sit in the discomfort of it and like sit with your heart and figure out, be willing to ask difficult questions. Knowing that the answer could lead you to . I
Eva: Lead to something
Kyley: take difficult actions. Um, I think it's, I think it's a really, I think it's a very definition [00:26:00] of like both self-compassion and bravery.
So.
Eva: Yeah.
Well, well, thank you. And I have, and I have more, I wanna say about this idea of like bravery and courage and everything, but I will also say I didn't do it alone because the truth is when I, when I realized I had hit a limit, It was really hard because what happens whenever you reach that point where you realize like the rubber has has hit the road, you'll have some stories that'll come in.
Or for me, I'll just speak for me, like this is where my work was. It's like, it's like where was my wounding? Where was my like trauma, right? And all the stories came in about like all the reasons I should feel guilty or all the reasons I'm a bad person or whatever. Whatever your story is, it doesn't matter.
Like a story will come in. And so that's where like the getting help and realizing like I was outta my depth and like my nervous system was just so dysregulated at the time. Just like being, Yeah.
just there were moments where I just felt like I did much wanted to jump out of my skin and I could say so much about what was helpful, but I like, honestly, [00:27:00] I'm so fucking grateful that I have had that.
I have the skillfulness and the experience of learning how to be with my emotions because that was like, there were like a couple of, I would say like a handful of things that were really helpful having. Like being able to talk to, like having you was another, you know, just having close people who you could talk to was another, just like lifelines, you know what I mean?
So like a therapist of friends, but, but also like, I think I moved through this kind of pretty well actually because I knew how to like be with my emotions and it's so helpful.
Kyley: yeah, yeah. Even when like, your emotions sometimes is like, well, like, like, like these kind of like guttural, heart wrenching moments, right? They're, um, the ability, the ability to feel safe as you're like, actively falling apart, which is I think, what these like really big feelings can feel like in the moment.
Um, yeah. It's like, [00:28:00] it's the only, it's, I don't, I don't know how I would survive difficult things without that.
Eva: Yeah.
Kyley: Which plug y'all should go by. Eva's emotional alchemy course cuz that will help you do that too.
Eva: always, always a plug for that
Kyley: Sales director, Kylie. What? What?
Eva: coming through, coming through . Yes. Um, but I, but, but yet, yes. And to all of these things about how like, uh, I don't know, being with your emotions is so helpful because, and I will also say sometimes really big emotions again, aren't meant to be felt alone. And sometimes actually some emotions are too big actually, that they feel unsafe to go into alone, which is then why having like someone, um, like a therapist was instrumental in helping me, like, move through things.
Cause like there's something really helpful about being witnessed in that too. Just like witnessed in, in all of it. Um, so Yeah.
There, there's actually one more thing I wanted to say about like, what was really tricky about my relationship with Adam. And I think this is [00:29:00] like, I think how a lot of people feel whenever they're stuck in any kind of situation.
Like whether maybe you're like stuck in a job. I think so. Like the things I've seen in my clients, right? Like the, the, um, usual suspects or like you're stuck in a career or job that like, you don't, that doesn't feel like it's fueling your soul. You're stuck in some type of like relationship, whether it's romantic or familial, like familial or, um, even a friendship or like a friend group and you're like, Oh, I just need to, This isn't right.
Or some type of organization. Like, we've had so many people on the show talk about getting out of like, you know, organized religion or some cultural thing that you're just, that you wanna get out of. All of those
Kyley: Yeah, like I remember when Dana came on the show and talked about like leaving like political activism. That feels like another
Eva: Yes. And it feels scary because it's always the death of like an identity, a death of comfort, Aden, a death of like, just everything that, you know, . It's hard. It is like it's, I, Yeah, I have so much [00:30:00] compassion. I even said this to you at one point. I was like, I understand why people don't do the hard work now because it's so hard.
It feels literally like you're dying. Um, I understand and I have compassion, but like, what I felt like my experience was, was like my relationship with Adam was like really good in some ways. And so that's why it kind of took me a while to understand, like, it took me a while to understand like this wasn't working because it's really hard, I think to leave something good
Kyley: Yeah.
Eva: for something that feels true.
Like
Kyley: Mm,
Eva: that's, I feel like what that hard fucking experience is, like this feels good, but I don't, But there's something else that I know feels more, more. True. And that is, That's fucking tricky. It's tricky. It's hard.
Kyley: Cause True is like
Eva: I don't even really know what I mean by that. . Like, it
Kyley: but I, like, I do somehow, I feel like, [00:31:00] um, right. It's like there are things that are working here, but also there are things that are right. There's things like that are that like, you know, you and Adam really fucking love each other, right? And so, um, and, and then there's just this like, knowing that shows up and almost like, Oh fuck, do you know the idea of like, once you see something, you can't unsee it, right?
It's like, like these moments. Now I know, I know. I have like truth, like my truth has shown itself to me. And I can choose to follow truth into the unknown, into the unknown , or I could ignore it at the cost of like, you know,
Eva: Feeling safe and comfortable.
Kyley: but, but knowing that that safety is coming at the cost of
Eva: Oh, oh, right.
Kyley: your own inner wisdom, right?
It's like, uh, and, and so, um, it's like a death has to happen either way. So is the [00:32:00] death an old you for the unknown or is the death this like, you know, deeper inner knowing that has something to say.
Eva: That is so, yes. Like so then Yes. I thought that actually felt like the crossroads that I was at, and I was like, and again, I, and I, and I share this because I've worked with so many people who have been at this crossroads. Like again, I'll use this job one. Cause I feel like it comes up a lot. Like, and I'm sure you've run into this too, right?
You work a lot of entrepreneurs, there's always that moment of like, Oh wait, am I gonna leave my, like my good nine to five job? It's good. I get insurance. I have like, I have, you know, I know that this, the pays sometimes, like you get paid a shit ton of money and that's why it's really hard to leave because it's fucking good.
But also it's not the, it's not true to you. It's not like what your soul long for, It's not what your mission was. It's not why you came into this. Your soul create came to like being reincarnated as like, and you may not even know when I say something true, like I don't know what's ahead for me. Like sometimes it's like I don't, I know that [00:33:00] there's something true out there.
And what's really scary is like, I don't even fucking know what that is. I'm just taking a big fucking risk. I'm taking this leap and it's scary, but I can't not take it. And that's the bitch of it all.
Kyley: God. Yes.
Eva: So, Yeah.
I don't know. You know, you've said many times before, which is always very kind and you know, I'll take it, this idea of like, you know, I, I, I live in integrity and I think that that is true, but also it can be a bitch. It's a double edged sword because sometimes, Yeah. maybe it would be easier just to like stay in the good and the comfortable, but,
Kyley: Yeah.
Eva: But you're right.
There is, It is, but it's not really, cuz what you're saying is there is a death. You pay a price
Kyley: And I think, Oh, go ahead. Sorry.
Eva: Nothing that.
Kyley: No, I think, um, I will say, I think one of the things that's really beautiful is when we build up some, So I, I wanna offer something, I wanna ask a question all at the same [00:34:00] time, because I'm thinking of the person who's resonating with what you're saying and is thinking like, am I at one of those crossroads and how do I recognize.
Right. Because especially when something, when they, when, when our like inner knowing voice shows up and it's telling us to do something scary, it's really easy to be like, No, no, no. Nope, nope. That's not real. That's not what I'm hearing. Right. So, um, I, I would like to spend a moment like speaking to how you can discern this, like wisdom or truth that can show up and how you can recognize that you're at that crossroads.
Um, and I think one thing I will, So I'm curious to know for you how that, like, how that revealed itself. Um, I think one of the things for me that's helpful, um, is, uh, like building up trust in smaller ways, right? It's like by, by living, by living in integrity with my intuition, which is just this like deeper part of [00:35:00] myself in small ways like.
Oh, I was sick on Wednesday and had to cancel the podcast even though I technically I could have wrestled it, right? Like, but that was a moment of like, no, you're like, you, you're this deeper part of you is asking for rest. So like, I'm gonna honor that and, and then it working out beautifully or, or, or being just fine or whatever the case is.
I feel like for me, listening to truth in small ways has helped me understand what it feels like and has trust helped me understand that it's safe, so that when it's a bigger moment and like bigger things are falling apart, um, I can, I can like sit in that truth and not feel completely like terrified.
Does that make sense?
Eva: Totally. Yeah, Prac, you have practice, you know?
Kyley: Yeah.
Eva: Um, and so is your question like How can one tell.
Kyley: Well, and I think [00:36:00] specifically, How did it show up for you? The like, the truth, right? Was it like a feeling in your body or just, was it like a quiet knowing that unfolded over time? Was it like a stark moment you were like, Oh shit, I've seen something that I can't
Eva: Mm, mm-hmm. . Let me think about that. That's a good question.
Eva: So it was like a slow sort of things dropping in over time, um, that eventually I just could of like you eventually over time you sort of are like gathering proof for whatever. And so that's kind of what happened. But I have an answer that people aren't going to like because it's not neat and tidy and people are impatient and I get that.
But the truth is I think it just like takes the time that it takes, like you said that once, and I've been really thinking about that a lot, which is like everything in my life, it's like I look back on it on everything that did work out, that where I was successful and I was just like, it just fucking takes the time that it takes.
Like if I'm not impatient, then there is no problem. The only problem is that I need to have things done by a certain amount of time and I'm measuring life by like time, [00:37:00] time, time, time, time. But the truth is I didn't know until I knew, which sounds like probably such a vague and nebulous answer, but. Um, I don't even know if I controlled it.
I felt like life just happens and you just know when you're ready to know.
Kyley: Yeah. I, I, I really love this answer. Um, because I think, you know, I've been thinking a lot, like off and on for a while now. This idea of like fixing and how like strong fixing energy is and how much it actually doesn't serve me, and all the, like, things that are sneaky, fix it energy, you know? Um, and. I think sometimes when we like are approaching crossroads, right?
We can like feel it coming and we're like, I gotta figure out, I gotta figure out like right. My pros and cons list, like we just try so hard to solve the problem and part I think cuz we're trying to protect ourselves from discomfort. Um, but [00:38:00] I think one of the things I hear you saying is like, yeah, it took the time it took to know like, um, maybe there was a question and then you have to wait, right?
It's like the question and the answer don't always show up at the same time, right? So I feel like you spoke to this wake up call moment, which was like, Oh, this might, like, I have to really grapple with the fact that like, this is like this, this is as it is. Um, and so there's a question that gets that arises and then sometimes the answer comes later.
Eva: Yeah. Oh
Kyley: of times the answer comes
Eva: yeah. Yeah. And like, I don't, that's the thing, like I don't have any like, um, Like ideas or stories about how it should have been different. And I guess, I guess what I'm trying to say is like, what if we just trusted the natural timing and unfolding of the situation?
Kyley: Yeah.
Eva: Um, Yeah,
I don't know. [00:39:00] Uh, I don't know.
It's interesting that I can say that now because I think in darker times, like when, if I were to like get into like a really depressed mindset, say, I could easily say, Oh, you're in this relationship for five years, and it like, took so long or whatever, but it didn't, I don't know. It doesn't feel, it doesn't, it doesn't feel that
Kyley: yeah, yeah. Um, I mean, for what it's worth, from witnessing you, it didn't feel like there was always like, you know, this is a topic that you and I have talked about plenty of times before, like, you know, well before you. The summer. Um, and just for what it's worth, it has never appeared to me that you were like ostrich about it.
Right. And pretending that this wasn't like a complicated factor of your relationship that needed, like your kind of emotional intelligence and like witnessing and wisdom. Um, so yeah, I don't, I, Yeah,
Eva: yeah,
I mean, I will say, I [00:40:00] think things really came to a head like this year that like thing, like things escalated this year, which at the time felt difficult, but there's so many things in hindsight now that I'm like, Oh wait, that was actually good. Like I'm, you know, like it pushed us in this direction.
And also there's so many things that I couldn't have known until afterwards.
Kyley: yeah.
I mean, I think that's the thing about like, when things fall apart, right? And I like, I use that phrase kind of like the Pema book when things fall apart or like, you know, the idea of rag and rock. It's like, There are these moments where it feels like, it feels like it could, it has the potential to feel like disaster and it hurts, right?
Like it is not, it's painful. Uh, and also,
there's also a nourishment that shows up in it, I think, even as it's
Eva: for sure.
Kyley: shitty.
Eva: Oh my God. I mean, okay. Yeah. so let's talk, Can we d let's, I wanna like direct the conversation there a [00:41:00] little bit
so I wanna go in that direction for a second about like, all, I think the good things and all the magic and all the gifts that I have come as a result of this experience. Um, . Okay. So it's so, it's so fucking nuts. Like a month ago, I don't know, I would say I've moved through things pretty quickly, but a month ago that all these things that I was like so concerned about, like, just like, Don't concern me anymore, or, No, no, no longer feel hard.
And so I think it really is just a time thing, but I, I wanna share this, the, the positive part, um, to instill. Faith and inspiration and excitement for anybody else who feels like they might be like, they need to make a big decision and it's really fucking hard. And, and all that and all that stuff. Right.
Whether now or in the future, cuz it's gonna happen at some point.
Kyley: bookmark. This folks
Eva: Exactly. Yeah. I will say. Okay, so just a bit about background and context. Um, it turns out, [00:42:00] so I was the one who had to like, who, who, who made the decision to end the relationship. I was the one who voiced it and then who afterwards like fell into a million pieces and were just crying on the couch for like hours as we had this whole conversation about ending our relationship.
Um, but in now what's happened is it's become a mutual decision and it's actually, he's actually really, it's, we have learned that he, he feels the same way and it's the best thing for both of us. Okay. So in, in some ways that you could say, Sure, Yes. That makes the whole process so much easier. Which, which it does because my biggest fear. Was that like, I don't know, and this is so infantalizing and like insulting, but this idea of like, Adam's depressed and if I break up with him, like he's gonna be a mess. Or like, I feel bad like leaving him, or blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. All these stories, stories, stories that I made up and
Kyley: and also like, yes, there's stories and sure there's an element of infantilizing, but also like. He's someone that you really care about, right? And we don't wanna cause harm to the people that we care about. So both, we [00:43:00] both can sit there
Eva: Thank you. Thank you. I appreciate that. Um, but I think like, so, so I wanna say in one way, that's made this whole split a lot easier because I think it is really hard when one person wants to spin, the other person doesn't. That's like, when it gets really, really tricky. But I think my, the lesson behind that though is that, and I've said this before on the podcast, and I'll say it again because, um, I love it when I, I'm reminded of this conclusion is, Reality is always so much more kind than what my fear tells me is gonna happen.
And that has happened over and over and over and over again in my life, which is that like the universe is supporting you. It's your fear is always gonna give you the worst fucking case scenario. You're gonna leave this religion, you're gonna get outta this marriage, you're gonna get out of this job, you're gonna move to this other place.
And it's gonna be like all these terrible things are gonna happen. And even if it's fucking hard, reality is always much more kind than what you think is gonna happen. And I just feel like it's like the love of God [00:44:00] coming in and swooping me up and holding me on this like cloud and being like, Hey baby girl, I got you
Like that's what this has felt like.
Kyley: Listeners, eyes are closed and like having a moment. This phrase real, I mean you've said this before, has happened on the show, right? Where like one of us says something we've always said and it just like goes, what threw me light lightning? This phrase that reality is always kinder than my fear. It's just like,
Eva: Yeah. My fear
Kyley: necessarily mean it might be, it might still be hard, right?
But it is kinder, it is softer. It. Like, uh, like another way I'm thinking about that is like your fear for all that it's worth witnessing is not the reason to not do something. And also, uh, the safety of not knowing
Eva: Yeah.
Kyley: because reality will be kinder than your fear. So there's an inherent safety, like you [00:45:00] said, like just being like scooped up, right?
Like there is an inherent, as you step into the unknown, there is safety because there is kindness woven into the fabric of it.
Eva: Yeah.
And I do feel like I've been completely held throughout this whole situation, and so I'm just. Like, they're just, so then like after I made this decision, all these like really wonderful things happened and I was like, do I wanna share about that? Because what if that's not everybody's situation?
And maybe I'm just really lucky and I'm like, Fuck that. No. Like, I don't think I'm particularly lucky. I think, I think there's something to be said about like, when you are living in integrity and following your heart, you make space for good things to happen because then all of your resources aren't going into just managing the wrong thing,
Kyley: Mm.
Eva: And it's just like, it's like, you
Kyley: That you don't even realize. Sorry, I'm
Eva: Yeah, no,
Kyley: like, you don't even, I feel like you don't even realize until it's, it's not there anymore. What, Like all of the resources, [00:46:00] emotional or physical or spiritual or some combination that go into like upholding something that is actually like, needs to die , you know?
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Eva: again, this is like, I'm applying this to so many situations cuz I know like, this is what I think of. It's like, um, I think this is honestly why like podcasts. So what was really helpful for me was actually talking to other people who had like, been divorced and who then it was like, felt like the biggest death of their life.
And then now they're out there living like their best lives or whatever. And, um, so this is why I think like podcasts or just talking to other people who, who are like, who have had this experience and not only survived it but thrive. That was like so helpful for me to see examples of that. And I think that's true of like, anybody, like if you're coming out as queer in that moment, coming out is probably like, feels like death.
Like it feels like probably the scariest thing if you are in a place where you might be threatened by that and then you like, but you see other people who, who've, who've walked the path before [00:47:00] you and they're happy and they're free and it's just like, Yeah.
If you are in a place where you need to make change need, like need to quit your job or whatever, get out of this, get it outta this organized religion.
Like listen to other people's stories, like connect with people who can show you like that there's a better way. Um, and I guess like the, the whole thing about like, okay, so reality was actually so much more kind than what I thought was gonna happen. Adam and I are actually great now, but there was this whole, I haven't told you this part, this part yet, but like it's actually been so fucking ridiculously.
Like, the irony behind it is that we have discovered that part of part, a big part of what was causing him to feel depressed was the pressure of being in this relationship
Kyley: Uh
Eva: he was obviously feeling. Like he couldn't measure up or he was in his constantly just navigating like, am I being a good enough partner?
Or I, I feel bad cause I can't meet her need. Or like [00:48:00] just, and the constantly being around me made himself want to like fix himself. And he just gotten this like, really, it was a lot of pressure that he wasn't even aware of because what we found out is that now that we are separated, his depression has actually been so much better.
It's like, how's that for a fucking like ridiculous unex? You know? Just the irony of it is just, I can't wrap my head around it.
Kyley: I'm actually crying right now. I mean, was like, I can completely see that like of fucking C Right? As someone who has had their own, like, you know, has been the, uh, the partner who is work working through mental health stuff. Like, uh, just the idea of like,
just the idea that all the million ways in which we try to make ourselves better and feel pressure that we aren't even aware is there to be different and other makes us fucking sick over and over and over again,
Eva: [00:49:00] Yeah. I mean,
Kyley: even when we're doing it because we love someone, right? Even when our intention. Is is a noble intention, right? It's like, um, what happens when we're not broken and wrong?
Eva: Yeah.
Now, now I'm crying because the way that you just phrase that, meaning you just, I mean, I, I, it's helped bits, I, I've, I've realized this, but it's also sinking in a new way of like how. Pressure that was for him consistently waking up 24 7. That was his reality of like, cuz there was this thing that he was like comparing himself to, or had to like measure up to.
And that was exhausting. And he didn't, And, and again, this is a wonderful example of like you, of you don't know something until hindsight, but it wasn't until after like he felt a relief and he couldn't have known that unless, unless he got out of this. And I don't know if I told you this part, but this was something that I will carry with me forever.
But [00:50:00] like that day we broke up after I spent like an, I don't know, a couple hours bawling my eyes out. He said to me that he was really proud of me. He said that, he was like, I'm really, I'm really, I'm impressed that you were able to make this really hard decision because I know how hard it was and I don't know if I could have done it, but he was glad that I did.
Basically someone, someone did it. And
Kyley: Yeah.
Eva: you know what, like. Yes. Fuck yes. Like Pat on the back. Like, I'm so happy. It makes me even more happy that I did the thing that I thought was gonna be the most horrible thing that has turned out to be actually a really wonderful thing. And I could have risked that all because I was just gonna live in a state of like fear and scarcity for like, I don't know, the rest of my life because, uh, uh, Yeah.
for all, for all the wrong reasons.
And so, I don't know, it really has me vibed my faith in just like, Huh, what if I can just trust that what's good for me is good for everybody else?
Kyley: that's what I was thinking about. Like, [00:51:00] so often when we want something or like, like, or need something, right? We could argue how different those are, but, but we, I think really grapple, especially when they're big, we really grapple that it will hurt somebody else, right? That like, in order to have my need met, someone has to pay the price.
And I think that causes so much suffering,
Eva: Yes. Oh my God,
Kyley: right? Cause it's like, well, if I need this thing, someone's gonna have to pay for it. It's gonna come out of cost. And like, am I willing, Like who gives right? Who gives and who takes and. I only had so much giving that I'm allowed to, because otherwise I'm just a taker. And the reality is like when the need comes from that place, we were calling truth, it is in service of everybody.
I really fucking believe that when the, when the need, the hunger, the want, the knowing shows [00:52:00] up and it comes from like deep inside of you. It is for everyone's growth.
Eva: I'm just silent right now because I'm just like, Oh, like I am floored by again, it is dropping in deeper of like, Just seeing my indoctrination a little bit of how, like my story was that if I do this thing that I need to do for myself, that I, my story, my like, core story is that I'm a bad person, right?
So it's like that somehow it, it, it just feels like it's been ingrained into me that if I need to get my needs met, I'm a bad person. And that was the very, and then, and then, and then see and then like to see how that cascaded out into, um, be then I didn't live my truth. And that, how that actually negatively impacted our relationship and it caused us to like, drag things out for maybe it needed to be because we were both just trying so hard to, we were both trying so hard to do the right thing for the other person instead of what was right for ourselves.
And see how, um, unaligned and unaligned and [00:53:00] inefficient that was.
Kyley: Yeah.
Eva: Again, this Melanie BD conversation that we had about codependency, it hasn't come out yet, but that conversation was like, just came at the perfect time for me cuz she was, That's codependency. It's like we are loving someone else more than we love ourselves.
And so that's what was happening with my relationship with Adam. Cause I kept being like, cuz it's hard, especially when someone is sick. Like, you have this, this is a story that I had about him that like, he was so, uh, like there was a little bit of like, uh, I don't know if infantalizing is the right word, but like, he's a, he didn't actually ever want that from me.
He's like, I'm a grown fucking adult. Like, don't, you don't need to treat me like I'm fragile and like tip toe around me and all. See, you're just noticing it now. Like all how all of that was just inefficient energy . And now, and it just seems like a really, Oh, like I just want This lesson to be like seared into my bones that like I can trust that if I do what it's good for me, it's good for other people, but [00:54:00] it's, um, I don't know.
I feel like it's gonna take, Take me, this could be a life, a lesson that
Kyley: This feels like the one that you're like, Oh, we're here again. , right? Like,
Eva: Yeah.
Kyley: Yeah. Yeah. Um, I mean, it's funny cause we joke about that sometimes if like, you know, I need to, one of us need to reschedule the podcast, and the person's like, Oh, thank God that actually works out way better for me. Right? Like that we, we have like these, which again, it's like, like these small moments of practice.
And I do think that's something really like, I appreciate when we witness together like, Oh, look, this was a moment where my need benefited somebody else, because that's for me, also part of the ability I was talking about trusting truth in small moments, so I can trust it in big moments and witnessing it when it's a teeny, tiny thing about like scheduling a Hello Universe business meeting.
Right. That, um, but witnessing that, it's like, just like a drop in the bucket so that when I have like a really big thing, I'm like, Oh, right. But it worked all those other times. So, um, yeah, [00:55:00] that, that, uh, Oh, I, I'm so, I'm so happy to hear that that is the Adam's experience. I'm not surprised and also like, based on everything that I know about both of you, but also my heart is just so happy because, I mean, Adam's an important person to me by nature of him being an important person too, Right.
I only met him once in person, but like, just, that's like, that's how it works.
Eva: Totally. And I feel that way about Nick. I totally get that. Yeah.
Kyley: And also, um, I love, I really, really, really, really love, um, the gift that that is for you, right? It's like, um, you know, we've talked before of like this, there's a way in which this echos, you know, patterns you've had to experience as a kid with your mom and like the, all the trappings of guilt that come with, you know, being a kid with, you know, complicated parental figures that you have to take care of.
And this is [00:56:00] like a, I don't know, like this, like refreshing reset and maybe that sounds like trite language, but it's like, like, oh, how many times in your life did you take care of what you needed? And it came at a
Eva: mm-hmm.
Kyley: And here you have this experience of taking care of what you needed and realizing how much like everyone is taken care of by that.
And I just feel really. Happy for you to like have that new story and experience to tuck into your heart because, uh, I don't know, you've been through the old one, a bunch of
Eva: Yeah. Yes, yes, yes. But it's interesting that you bring up, so like my fam my family stuff, because I do wanna make one caveat, which is like, I think the reason this separation with Adam has been, has been able to be like life giving and, and eye opening and Amy capable and [00:57:00] all these ways is because one thing that I realized about Adam is like, yes, he's been diagnosed with like, you know, resistant treatment treat or treatment resistant depression.
So like that's the diagnosis that he has, but he's not a toxic person, which I think is very, I think that is different. Cause I was actually in my, one of my group classes recently, I had some person talking about like, the person that they were with, like, she separated with him and they came back in and they were just like, not, it wasn't healthy, it was like kind of abusive and like, and really, and that's kind of like how my mom was.
And so, I don't know. I think, uh, I don't know. I guess I'm just trying to make the differentiation of like, everything that I'm saying is like you, if you are with someone who's maybe struggles with some, some, like, some type of like physical illness or something like that might be true, but that doesn't mean that they're toxic or that they're not an adult and that they can't take care of themselves of, for divisions, of course, because, but also, and also to make the separation of like, but also noticing if you [00:58:00] are with someone who actually is toxic, then a whole different set of rules applies, I
Kyley: Right. . Right. And it also is making me think of like, , You know, we're just saying like, what serves you, serves everybody. And I do really believe that it's true, but sometimes the way that it's right, Like, like Adam is a self-aware, like compassionate, like adult human being, right? And so, um, and so he can receive this and, and move and integrate it in a way that, like someone who's kind of a toxic person, right?
The way that, the way that your breakup might serve them is that like it stirs up a bunch of shit that they are continuing to not tend to. Right? So, so it's not like when you take care of yourself, it's always smooth sailing. It's just that I really believe that this, like refreshing reset and maybe that sounds like trite language, but it's like, like, oh, how many times in your life did you take care of what you needed? And it came at a
Eva: mm-hmm.
Kyley: And here you have this experience of taking care of what you [00:59:00] needed and realizing how much like everyone is taken care of by that.
And I just feel really. Happy for you to like have that new story and experience to tuck into your heart because, uh, I don't know, you've been through the old one, a bunch of
Eva: Yeah. Yes, yes, yes. But it's interesting that you bring up, so like my fam my family stuff, because I do wanna make one caveat, which is like, I think the reason this separation with Adam has been, has been able to be like life giving and, and eye opening and Amy capable and all these ways is because one thing that I realized about Adam is like, yes, he's been diagnosed with like, you know, resistant treatment treat or treatment resistant depression.
So like that's the diagnosis that he has, but he's not a toxic person, which I think is very, I think that is different. Cause I was actually in my, one of my group classes recently, I had some person talking [01:00:00] about like, the person that they were with, like, she separated with him and they came back in and they were just like, not, it wasn't healthy, it was like kind of abusive and like, and really, and that's kind of like how my mom was.
And so, I don't know. I think, uh, I don't know. I guess I'm just trying to make the differentiation of like, everything that I'm saying is like you, if you are with someone who's maybe struggles with some, some, like, some type of like physical illness or something like that might be true, but that doesn't mean that they're toxic or that they're not an adult and that they can't take care of themselves of, for divisions, of course, because, but also, and also to make the separation of like, but also noticing if you are with someone who actually is toxic, then a whole different set of rules applies, I
Kyley: Right. . Right. And it also is making me think of like, , You know, we're just saying like, what serves you, serves everybody. And I do really believe that it's true, but sometimes the way that it's right, Like, like Adam is a self-aware, like compassionate, [01:01:00] like adult human being, right? And so, um, and so he can receive this and, and move and integrate it in a way that, like someone who's kind of a toxic person, right?
The way that, the way that your breakup might serve them is that like it stirs up a bunch of shit that they are continuing to not tend to. Right? So, so it's not like when you take care of yourself, it's always smooth sailing. It's just that I really believe that when you take care of yourself, it
Eva: be the
Kyley: it is for everybody else.
Even if the way it's for them is that they have to have a like little rag and rock
Eva: Right? Yes. Thank you. Thank you for making that distinction. Cause I think that's really important. Yes. That it, Yeah. But, or maybe the way that it serves is that you're no longer, um, what's the word? When you're, uh, there's a word for it. Enabling. Yes. You're no longer enabling.
someone. So yeah. Maybe they do have to have some rock bottom experience of their life, but like, they need
Kyley: I, Maybe they need that.
Eva: they need that. cuz they can't be ha like someone who can't be holding your hand, you know, [01:02:00] for the rest of their life.
So. Yes. Um, anyway. Yeah, I mean, uh, I feel like, yeah, like, uh, I was, I feel like the segue that I wanna take this in is like, yeah,
so all these like really loving, beautiful, happy things have happened and Adam and I are doing really well right now. And actually, like I say, in some ways better than even when we were like, have this idea of that we were gonna be together forever
Kyley: yeah,
Eva: cuz that pressure is removed and also my future is fucking unknown.
Kyley: yeah. Yeah.
Eva: and I don't know, we don't have, I honestly, I think we could say that for like another time, but just for listeners, uh, I don't know where I stand now is that, Yeah. I mean I, it was a scary decision cuz when I decided to break up with Adam, I kind of blew up my life and where I felt, and I, I felt really displaced because I didn't have [01:03:00] just all these things and I didn't know where I was gonna live.
We would have to, like, we were gonna move back to Phoenix. To be closer to his family. I'm not doing that now anymore. And so I think my journey will, I will be unfolding it with listeners week by week as we go because, um, it's just kinda a blank slate right now.
Kyley: Yeah. You're like standing on the edge of the abyss, you know?
Eva: Mm-hmm.
Kyley: Or like, uh, Yeah, like , this is kinda a sweet image, but it's like, like, like some movie, like the Lord of the Rings, like some big adventure movie and you're in like the beginning, right? Where like the scene zooms out and you've like just left the Shire and you like have your like little satchel and you're like, you know, the scene zooms out and it's just like, here's the mountain range and the, you know, ocean and the, you know, epic landscape.
You're about
Eva: That's totally what it feels like. Kylie, great visual coming through for you. But like, like [01:04:00] I don't, you know, I'm over here being like, Oh, it's all these wonderful, beautiful things happen. and I'm mindful of like, but also I have a whole nother adventure in front of me that I imagine will entail both, you know, release steep mountains to climb, and then some really gorgeous rivers that I just get to float down.
I
Kyley: Mm.
Eva: But, um, I don't know. I kind of wanna take everyone on this adventure with me because I don't know to, I don't know why that, it feels important to be like, I don't have it fucking figured out
Kyley: Yeah.
Eva: and I think that's okay.
Kyley: Yeah, yeah,
Eva: at 38 years old, I am once again in a place where I thought I had things figured out and I, and I don't. And that's, uh, in the beginning, that's always like a, To my system, and then it's always like a place in which I'm like, I get to fill my cup again
Kyley: yeah,
Eva: to be reborn. It really does [01:05:00] feel like, you know, death and rebirth.
Kyley: Yeah. And also, um,
yeah, what a, um, don't know. I'm constantly coming back to this idea of like, I don't know fucking anything. I mean like, and like I feel like the more, this was another thing that comes up in the Melanie b uh, podcast, so we were really doing a great job of getting people excited for that one. But, um, like the more I can sit in not knowing the more, like the more fucking liberated we are.
You know, like the more alive I can feel myself being when I can sit in not knowing. Um, yeah. Okay. This, we, this is a whole podcast cause there's this, now I'm like, there's something that I've been moving through that I hadn't been ready to like even speak to you about. But I can see now that it's actually the same exact thing around like, [01:06:00] surrender and like, Looping back through, not embodying, not knowing.
So, great. Now we know what we're talking about next. Kylie . So
Eva: yep, yep. I love it.
Kyley: Thanks. Um, should we do join?
Eva: Yeah.
Kyley: Okay. Um, well first of all, before we segue to Joy, I wanna say, I wanna say two things. First, I just wanna say thank you. Thank you for, I mean, just per use. Thanks for being my friend. I will never stop being in awe and lucky about that. But also thank you for being willing to show up.
So, With so much love and compassion and honesty in this space because I have no doubt that your willingness to speak to the whole range of experiences, um, is medicine for a lot of us. So thank you for always being teacher. Um, and the other thing I wanted to speak to you about Joy, it's actually just about joy in general.
[01:07:00] So I got the most beautiful message on Instagram the other day from one of our listeners, and she was, um, she had listened to our recent episode about kind of community and loneliness. And when we got to Joy, um, she shared like, you know, I started crying because I realized like I don't actually have access to joy the way I would like to.
Um, and she was saying it as like a cathartic experience. And it ties into another conversation I had recently with a couple of friends where we were also asking this question like, what brings you, what's bring you joy lately? And um, and one woman shared like, Joy feels really comp like a joy. And this is someone who I think of as very joyful, but she was saying like, Joy feels like it lives up on a pedestal.
So I like, that. Feels kind of like a reach or complicated. Do I have joy all the time? I don't know. And so she was, we were like throwing different words around that she could use instead. And we talked about satisfaction and we settled on wonder as a really delicious option. Um, but I kind of wanted to like just [01:08:00] offer all that forward.
And maybe that's a future episode too, is like unpacking what the fuck joy even means that, um, like, I don't know, I guess just like normalizing. Cause sometimes you don't have joy , right? Sometimes joy feels really far away or complicated or something that does live on a pedestal. And then we can get really graspy about it.
And, um, I think I just, I really love our ritual of speaking to joy, um, in this, in the show. And I really love the way it helps me like pluck out shiny bits from my day. Like, kind of like a. Like a raven would find like a little shiny bobble, you know? Um, and I also really wanna make space for like, wherever you are is where you are, and it's a great place to be.
And maybe it is a place of grief, in which case your grief is alive, and that's its own kind of transcendent experience, even as it may be uncomfortable. [01:09:00] Um, and I just, I just wanted to speak
Eva: Yeah. No, I'm so glad you mentioned, I think that's really important. Uh, I don't know if you remember, but, so a couple weeks ago when I was kind of like in the
Kyley: Mm-hmm.
Eva: out, like you asked me what was bringing me joy, and I was like, uh, I like checked in with myself and I was like, I don't think I feel anything that was being me.
Joy. And that felt like a really jarring response because immediately my mind went to like, Oh, no. Like, Well, what does that.
mean? Like, like,
Kyley: Are you being ungrateful? Like you can't find anything? Yeah.
Eva: or like, like you said, because we put it up on a pedestal. Like, Oh, if I don't feel joy, does that mean that my life is like a mess and I'm in route?
And it, and it's, it's not, and. I don't know. And then I said at the end, I was like, maybe, maybe I'll say that more often. If that is the case, if that ever comes up again, instead of feeling like it means instead that the feeling of like, it's okay. I think, I guess is what I'm trying to say.
Kyley: yeah, yeah, yeah. Absolutely. Absolutely. I really loved that, but I was really grateful for that. When you, when you, Another example of you being wise, embodied [01:10:00] teacher in all ways. Um, yeah. So all that being said, is there a joy you'd like to share?
Eva: Um, okay. Well, okay. Wait, well if you're gonna give thanks, I feel like I wanna give thanks Too because, and I know that we do this a lot on the podcast, so maybe listeners are like, sick of our love fest, but, um,
Kyley: Too
Eva: Yeah, too bad. Um,
Kyley: in our mutual obsession with each other are definitely not going anywhere.
Eva: yes. I, I mean, I, I guess I, I, I want to be better at receiving compliments and so I will receive.
And, but really I also, and also, I guess I just feel like, uh, I feel so lucky that I have a space in which I can just be held and you can receive all of this and help me process, and that you don't get bored of my shit. And also , uh, know where I would be in this process without you truly like, and, and it's, and any time, I think anytime anyone ever goes through a [01:11:00] breakup actually is a time when you're reminded of that, like, that you need people and your friends are really fucking important.
And it's so, I feel so happy for like the, um, uh, I don't know. There's like, like, uh, Fri Brown has this thing about friendship, about how like, you're supposed to like, put cookies in the cookie jar. No, you put like, trust into a jar and over time it builds up or something. I'm kind of ruining the analogy, but the point is, is like, um, Yeah, reach out to your people consistently, cuz they will be your lifeline.
And you've been such a lifeline for me, so thank you so much. Just like, and always coming through with the wisdom and the knowledge and the allowing, giving me permission to just be my whole fu human self anyway. Everybody get yourself a friend like Kylie Caldwell. She's mine. So you guys can't have her, but someone else.
Kyley: her dance card's full. Fuck off. No . Okay, thanks making me cause I was crying.
Eva: Okay. Um, okay, so what am I, Well, and then I [01:12:00] guess on the topic of friends, um, I will say, and that's another thing, death and rebirth again, it's just, it's the, I'm experiencing it now. Sometimes I pay lift lip service to it, but I'm really experiencing it now, so it feels very alive. And so like, there's been death, but there's also, like, I got on a call, a zoom call with my high school girlfriends last night just to like, catch up and, and, and people have just been reaching out and.
Checking in and, um, I don't know, there's just, I, I guess the joy is just like being able to reconnect with other loved ones and feeling really held by my girlfriends and knowing that I'm not alone and at this time where I think I can be easy to feel alone. Um, and like the kindness and generosity of other people, really did make me feel joy.
Like, you know, you hear all these stories on the social media about people being assholes, and I think you can like, but like I, I [01:13:00] do believe that people majority, like in our inherently good, there's just goodness out there. And I see that in the people who I know. So that, that brought me joy.
Kyley: I love that. I really love that for you.
Eva: Thanks.
And what about you, Kylie? What's something that's bringing you.
Joy
Kyley: Okay, so you've already got a hint about this one with the video I sent you before recorded. So we made, um, Halloween cookies today and we had like a whole, Desi was calling it a fall festival, . Nick took the kids to pick up pumpkins this morning and we carved pumpkins. I actually am quitting my job and becoming a full time pumpkin carver because mine are so fucking good.
Everybody. Um, I made a snake with like a, I didn't have a stencil, health for the snake, and then I made a wolf howling at the moon. Like
Eva: very
Kyley: they're legit, everybody. Um, and so that was really, And then, uh, I really love baking. I just have al, I baked with my mom when I was a kid. [01:14:00] Like I always love baking. Um, and so I really love making elaborate sugar cookies with my kids.
So the kind of sugar cookies where you have to roll them out are like many step process. So you have to make the dough, but then it has to be cold. So you have to put it in the fridge for at least two hours, but it can't be more than two days. Cause then it starts to go bad and then you roll it out and you get your little like cookie cutters and make all the shapes and then you cook them.
And then I like to make royal icing frosting, which is like that really delicious, like, um, like if you buy a sugar cookie and it has like a, like hard frosting on top, that's royal icing. And then we have like a bajillion. It's a whole fucking thing. It's a whole ordeal. Um, and uh, and I had made cookie dough at her, but then everybody got sick and I was like, We like, like we cannot like the, like, amount of snot that's happening in this house.
So I had to throw that cookie batter away. We made it again. But like, you know, it's a huge mess. The kids eat like way too much sugar. Like Desi's lips were like [01:15:00] black from the frost
Um, but it was just like, it's so much fun. And I just had this really, like, this really beautiful sense today of like, oh, like this is a family tradition. Then we make these cookies and we make them a Christmas, but like, like the tin is Christmas. And so we totally have some, uh, actually I did put a reel. I made a reel today of the cookies so you could all go on my Instagram to check them out with my hilarious commentary.
But we made like Christmas tree, Halloween style and.
Eva: I mean, they were like epic cookies. You can tell that they were like, there was like love put into them.
Kyley: And also all of the sprinkles in the world.
Eva: Yeah. But I can also just tell from the way that you're talking about this, that there is just so much joy in this and I, and mixed up with also just like this fall, the fall and the tradition. I love that Desi was calling this a fall festival.
Kyley: really love. Yeah, it
Eva: I feel like you create an experience for your kids, you
Kyley: Yeah. And it's funny because I think sometimes what, how we take for granted the things that we do [01:16:00] well, Right? And like, uh, and that was my moment today was like, oh, a family tradition. Like I have, I have made a family tradition, which is that we make these these silly sugar cookies, which take the entire day and make a huge mess and like, are so delicious.
Um,
Eva: and so creative.
Kyley: Yeah, exa and like, and I love that it's messy for everybody. And, and uh, and Birdie said, Bernie goes, I'm gonna remember this day from.
Eva: I know. They are gonna remember this. They're gonna remember like, my mom used to do this thing for us, and Oh, that's so sweet.
Kyley: and also like, uh, you know, without efforting, right? Like, it's not the me who's like, Oh, I gotta like make the memories and do the things and like, cause I, that shows up for me too, for sure. But this is something that's like, I fucking love this. I think it's really fun and ridiculous. And, um, yeah.
And it just like, I don't know, somehow I like zoomed out and saw it as like, [01:17:00] Oh yeah, this, this is what a tradition is. I just made one purely out of my own desire to eat these kind of sugar cookies.
Eva: Which actually makes a lot of sense to me. I, I would wonder, Cause I've often thought like if I had kids, like I'd wanna have traditions, I'm like, But how do you like, keep one up? And then it feels like it's a lot of upkeep
Kyley: Yeah.
Eva: based on what you're saying. What I'm observing is like, they're probably, if it's a good tradition, it probably is born out of like actual genuine excitement and like interest and love and not efforting.
And so like, you, you seem like you genuinely love doing this.
Kyley: Yeah,
Eva: And so it was for everyone.
Kyley: yeah, yeah. Like when I was a kid, we always made our Halloween costumes from scratch. We never bought them a cause my parents couldn't afford, and b cuz like, that's just, I don't know. We liked that creativity. Uh, and uh, I mean, things were staple together. There was no sewing, just be clear. Right. We were at that kind of crafty family one time.
But anyway, but, uh, and so when my kids were little, I, I did have was like, Oh, well that will be our tradition. We'll make [01:18:00] costumes. I don't fucking wanna make costumes. Like it's just way too much work. Maybe when they're older and we can make them together. But like, so that would be an example of a tradition that.
Would have been born out of like some kind of required responsibility. And this feels like you said like really good of like, Oh yeah, this is for me. And also I'm letting everybody else come
Eva: thing. This is your thing. Yeah. Which is how it was created. That's really cool. Yeah. But, and also crc. Go check out that reels cuz like, uh, it, yeah.
just like, it was just like, looked like art . I was cracking up actually when you showed me these, the photos of your cookies.
Kyley: Cause there's also, most of them are, there is a spider don know how it has, but most of them are Christmas themed so that they're like all with orange and black sprinkles, but like a snowman. That's another part of it that I all love. So yeah, that's my, that's my joy is all festival
Eva: love it. love it. Love it. Get some good. Needed fall joy.
Kyley: Yeah, absolutely.
Eva: all right, listeners, we [01:19:00] love you so much. Thanks for coming on this journey with us. Um, if you like the show, we would love it if you subscribed and sent it to your pals. If you know someone who's going through a hard time or a breakup or they had a crossroads, you can share this with them.
Um, like what are all the things. we want them to do? Anything else like, subscribe, share. Oh, oh yeah. Leave a review. Tag us on the gram.
Kyley: Invite, tell us which other podcast you wanna see us on.
Eva: yeah. Cuz we wanna be on other
Kyley: Cause that's our, that's our, that's our big plan. So, um, yeah. We love you.