Courtney Smith, executive coach and co-author of Choosing Wholeness Over Goodness, joins us this week and we are so excited to talk to her about what it looks like to loosen our grip on being “good,” and instead allow for wholeness.
Courtney Smith, executive coach and co-author of Choosing Wholeness Over Goodness, joins us this week and we are so excited to talk to her about what it looks like to loosen our grip on being “good,” and instead allow for wholeness.
This conversation also opens up a deeper framework through the Enneagram and the original roots of the “seven deadly sins” not as moral failings, but as patterns that once helped us feel safe, alive, or connected… and eventually became limiting.
What we cover in this episode:
🔥 The “skillful practice of anger” and what it means to feel it without directing or suppressing it
😬 Why anger is so often followed by fear—and how those two get intertwined in the body
🧠 The subtle ways we avoid anger (including disassociation, fatigue, and “not knowing” we’re angry)
✋🏽 How anger can function as a clean signal: “this isn’t working”
🌊 Why anger doesn’t come with a roadmap—and what it asks of us instead
🌀 The original meaning of the “seven deadly sins” and how they’ve been misunderstood over time
🧭 How patterns that once protected us can become the very things that keep us stuck
💔 The cost of trying to be “good” and how it can lead to self-abandonment
🌿 What it means to choose wholeness instead—and why that can feel disorienting
🎭 Using parts work and playfulness (yes, including your inner “traffic cop”) to relate to yourself differently
⚡ The connection between anger, aliveness, and life force in the body
Courtney Smith is an executive coach who helps her clients see the world more clearly and live in greater resonance with their values, potential, and purpose.
Website: www.courtneysmithconsulting
Substack: https://courtneycsmith.substack.com/
Connect with us:
Eva's instagram: @iamevaliao
Eva's Free course on spiritual AWAKENING
Kyley's Instagram: @kyleycaldwell
Kyley's free mini-course
Eva: [00:00:00] [00:01:00] Hello. Hello, universe listeners, we're so excited to introduce you to Courtney Smith today. She is an executive coach and also the co-author of the book Change Choosing Wholeness Over Goodness, which is such a good title by the way. And she's also very passionate about using the Enneagram for as a tool for spiritual exploration, which I'm really excited to learn [00:02:00] about.
Welcome, Courtney. We're so happy to have you.
Courtney: Thank you so much for having me. I'm thrilled to be here.
Eva: Yay. So, as you know, we like to start every episode with the question, what is something life is teaching you in the moment?
Courtney: So I thought this was a great question. I'm glad you gave it to me ahead of time so I could think about it a little bit. Um, I am learning the skillful practice of anger.
Kyley: Ooh.
Eva: Mm-hmm.
Courtney: about you
Eva: say more about, you know, can you say more about that? Because we've talked a bit about anger on this show, but I still struggle with, um, how to actually, uh, let myself feel as angry as I want to feel. And I'm curious if you have any tips.
Courtney: the club.
Um,
Kyley: Have you been socialized a woman?
Courtney: I mean, I, I notice over here, you know, I ping pong back and forth between, you know, letting it rip and, um, then, then having to [00:03:00] clean up a mess. In terms of things that I've said to my kids or whomever, um, or I go the other direction and whether it's because of gender or me wanting to appear like a mature, civilized, evolved person, um, you know, I, I stuff it down and I do all kinds of tricks to make sure it says stuff down.
And so I go back and forth between being reactive where it's too much and it's not skillful, or I'm reactive in my suppression of it and which is its own form of reactivity, right? Um, and so one thing for me that I'm learning is, first of all, can I just be with the bodily experience of anger and the sensations of anger and it be its own experience of the now [00:04:00] moment.
Without it needing to be directed at anyone needing to change the world in any way. It just being what's here now in this body and would I be willing to let the body have its experience?
Eva: Mm-hmm.
Kyley: Oh,
you're speaking our love language here on so many levels.
Eva: Yes. This
Kyley: Can I
Eva: question.
Kyley: oh, sorry, love.
Eva: No, we're, we're both like trying to jump in here 'cause it's so good. But I'm, I'm gonna jump in first, and this is maybe a question for, for both of you. Like, this is a long time practice, I think for me of just, you know, feeling my feelings and the sensations of, of my feelings. What is it about the sensations of anger that, um, well actually I have found that if I can let it in, then it's actually really nice. You know, it's like this, it can transform or I can just be with it, or the grief comes and the tears and that can be very healing. But sometimes there's this [00:05:00] resistance, like it's scary to feel the anger.
And I'm curious, a question for both of you. What, where do you think that fear comes from and do you experience that? You know, just not wanting to feel the sensations.
Courtney: Do you want me to go Kyley or do what?
Kyley: you go first.
Courtney: I mean, I'd be curious to hear Kylie's experience. Um, but, and this is explored actually in the book, um, for me, one thing that happens is the moment I feel anger rising in the body, really right on its heels, is fear about what might happen if I were to really be with that anger.
And some of those fears are, you know, will people still be with me?
Eva: Mm-hmm.
Courtney: Um, will I do something I regret? Will it take me in a direction that then I backtrack or I come back a month later and go, whoa.
So there's really like a, a [00:06:00] fear and a lack of trust with the anger over here that I think sometimes gets in the way of me just being with it.
Eva: Yeah. Yeah. The indoctrinated sense of, like, for me, what I'm hearing when you say that is like, it's unacceptable. Like I'm afraid of what my anger will do and how it'll affect people, or also that it's so monstrous. 'cause it's so huge. 'cause it's been repressed for so long that I'm just gonna, you know, I'm just gonna wanna kill some motherfuckers.
Like, it's just gonna be ugly, you know?
So, but it's helpful for me to hear that that is, yeah. That's your experience as well.
Courtney: And fear of people leaving, but also just fear of judgment. You know, what might they think of me? What might they call me?
Eva: Mm-hmm.
Courtney: Um, and so, and that, that that reaction, that fear on the back of anger is they're so interwoven that, I mean, it's kind of almost instantaneous and over here and [00:07:00] impossible to, to pick apart.
Um, so that just full. Experience of anger, which is ultimately when anger is not interwoven with fear and when anger is not about trying to suppress another emotion, which is another common thing that some people do. Um, anger is really here to help us make decisions about what serves us and what doesn't serve us.
Eva: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
Kyley: Yeah.
Courtney: and clean anger. Like when I work with my clients and when I work with myself, like I have a prop of like, um, you know, movie directors where it's like they like cut the scene
Kyley: Mm-hmm.
Courtney: and when a movie director cuts the scene, he's not, he or she is not pointing to one actor and saying, you made a mistake, you fucked it up.
Now we gotta redo it. They're just saying, this scene isn't working,
Kyley: Yeah.
Courtney: we need to start over. [00:08:00] And for me, the, the gift and intelligence of anger, it doesn't have a directional component to it. It has a just stop the scene
Kyley: Mm.
Courtney: and then I can get clear eyed about if I wanted to stop this scene and make a new one, what is mine to do?
Kyley: Yeah. Oh, I love that. And I think to riff off of that, my answer to your question, Eva, of like, where does that fear come from? Which is a really juicy question, um, is that I think anger demands change. And to your point, Courtney, the discernment is it, is, is something internally that needs to change? Is it something for me to change?
Is it something that, you know, a boundary that I need to set out in the world? Um, but I think part of the reason that anger is really scary is because. When you admit that you're fucking pissed about something, then [00:09:00] you anger asks you to do something about it. Right. And, and I think sometimes, like a lot of the work that I do, sometimes I, I work with a lot of people, um, uh, who are like recovery people pleasers, and we talk about anger a lot because, you know, if you have a strong fond response, anger is like the ultimate threat because it's so destabilizing to this programming of like, I must be palatable and make nice. um, and um, and I think about how like grief to be with our grief is to like be in the acceptance of what is right.
And, and that is uncomfortable. But I think a lot of us. Especially like if you're listening to this podcast, if we're like, spiritual seekers are often actually get quite good at that. But then anger is, its companion because anger is to accept that something has to change
right?
And that change is inherently disruptive and it might, it's gonna upset the apple cart in one way or another. Um, [00:10:00] and I think we're, we're scared of actually engaging with change, right? We like our little cozy, uncomfortable room that we know very well.
Eva: Yeah. That feels you. That's giving us the illusion of safety. Yeah.
Kyley: yeah.
Courtney: And you know. Just to build on what you're saying, and this is my experience. It may not be others, but, and this is some about my own Enneagram typing. Um, you know, I like to like have a guarantee it's gonna work out right? It's gonna be okay. Like this is gonna happen and then this is gonna happen and then this is gonna happen.
And anger is not that kind of emotion. It is about stop now, go this direction, stop now go this. And it's one step at a time without knowing like, this is gonna lead to this, this is gonna lead to that. So it really is asking to confront in a very meaningful way. [00:11:00] What does it mean to act with uncertainty
about what's gonna happen after that point.
Kyley: Mm. That's a really good point. And to trust, like to trust that the need to stop matters, even if you don't know what direction you're gonna, but just to trust the stop.
Courtney: Yeah, exactly. Exactly.
Eva: Hmm.
Kyley: Oh, I'm just relishing in this. Um.
Courtney: Eva, was there something you wanted to say, like, to answer your own question?
Kyley: Ooh. thank you for asking. Honestly, I all I, to keep it short, I would say, I would say no, but all I could feel when you were talking about how anger doesn't like to give us a, you know, a five step plan, my whole body was like, well, uncomfortable. You know? It was like, I was like, because I am such, you know, I find such safety in, I'm a Capricorn.
Eva: I'm, I'm very type A. I'm like, I love logistics, I love planning, and so [00:12:00] yeah, anger, just like disrupts all of that. That's, it's a beautiful thing, and so I'm just, I'm just noticing like the discomfort moving through my body, but me being able to but hold it in a, in a beautiful way.
Courtney: Mm-hmm.
Mm-hmm.
Eva: Like that is the, the power and the, and the magic and the demand of anger, which is ultimately a blessing.
Kyley: Uh, you are for sure the planner of our duo. And I, I think one of the things that I struggle with, with Anchor, and I'm curious how this shows up for you too, is, um. Is when I don't know that I'm angry, right? So there's the like, anger that comes roaring out of me and vomited onto my children, and then I have to like repair.
And then there's the anger that, you know, where it's like creeps up and we swallow it back down or, or this, you know, we're actually are able to sit with it. But there's this other thing that I think is really common, um, where I just don't know that I'm angry or I intellectually know that I'm angry, but it's like an echo of, it's like I, I've [00:13:00] so disassociated from that fragment or that part or that experience that, um, it's only a knowing.
It's like it's only a intellectual experience. And I'm curious if that shows up from some iteration of that shows up for you two and what you do about it, how you move with that.
Courtney: I mean, I think this is a really interesting point that because many of us have been conditioned to be scared of experiencing anger, we've got all these sophisticated ways of disassociating, pretending, suppressing, repressing, that anger is in the body in the first place. And so, um, that's part of what creates that backlog, right, of then when it comes out, it's quite explosive because I, I didn't even know I was angry in the first place.
'cause this system of organization over here has gotten so skillful at keeping it tucked away so that I don't have to live [00:14:00] with the terror of feeling angry. And for me, there's so much work around complaining judgment, criticism, resentment. Impatient, sarcasm. All of those are cues that there is some anger over here that hasn't been owned,
Eva: Mm-hmm.
Courtney: but for other beings it could be things like, um, lazy, like sleepiness,
Eva: Mm-hmm.
Courtney: uh, like disinterest fatigue.
Eva: Fatigue and chronic illness. I think for, I, I've been able to track that because I, I have chronic fatigue and I've been able to track how my suppression of my anger is a direct link to, uh, feeling tired.
It's, yeah. Mm-hmm.
Courtney: You know, jaw tension a lot. I mean, a lot of the gender conditioning is turning in anger inward, which causes, you know, depression and shame. And so, [00:15:00] and in what ways is, do we prefer actually being depressed or being self-critical than being with anger? Um, so I think there are a lot of really, that are very specific to each person.
Eva: mm-hmm. Have you found that in your practice of, of, you know, welcoming in your anger that it's gotten, you've become more skillful?
Courtney: I think I've got, I mean, there's always room to grow on this one, and I, you know, I, I peel off a layer and I give myself like a huge pat on the back, and then I find another layer of like, oh fuck, here it is again.
Eva: Mm-hmm.
Yeah,
Kyley: yes. think it's an interesting topic. 'cause there's a lot to be angry about right now.
Courtney: yes. Yeah.
Eva: like you're bringing up a topic that I think a lot of people are resonant with and also don't know what to do with these overwhelming emotions. And then, like you said, they, they turn inwards.
Courtney: Yeah.
Eva: I'm happy you're bringing it up.
Kyley: I, this morning I have been, [00:16:00] um, very sleepy in the morning for a while now, and this morning I was like. What is this all about? Like, 'cause sometimes it's anemia for me. I know, I know that. So I was like, I don't, I don't, did it get that bad again? What is that all about? And now, 'cause life sometimes answers your question immediately.
Now you're talking about anger and suppressing anger and being tired and I am very uncomfortable and I'm gonna have to go sit with that later. Maybe throw some rocks in the water.
Eva: Yeah.
Kyley: We'll report back a leap out of bed with, uh, vigor after I, I dunno, break some things.
Courtney: Yeah, I think, um, you know, one way we can talk about the Enneagram is there are these, you know, nine types and you can talk about people having a personality that's identified with one of those nine types. But you can also look at like what are the universal lessons in each of them. And there are, everyone feels anger.
It's a fundamental human emotion. So it's, it's up for grabs for all of us, but there are three [00:17:00] types. Um. That really kind of, that's their primary thing they're grappling with. And one of those types gets like really big in the anger and like, really? And I was just my, I was just playing a game with my daughter last night.
Um, it's a game called Priorities where you have to, like, you get five cards and you have to like put them in order of least favorite to most favorite. And then the other person has to try to guess and then you match up. And hers had like moralizing, um, drama and I like a couple more. And like, she was like, moralizing number one for me.
I love it. Like it feels so good, like.
Eva: A woman knows herself.
Courtney: Yeah. Yeah. I love like drama. Bring it on like, oh, so good for me. So there's, there's, there's a part of us that loves the fe, like can feel the fire and the power and the, um, actually dialing up anger rather than being with sadness or fear.
Um, and then there's another Enneagram type that was, [00:18:00] is called like really, um, makes themselves sleepy rather than be with their own life force and anger.
Um, and so that's I'm gonna hang up. This has a great podcast. Thanks so much. Good.
and, and when I work with those kinds of people, it's about like, can I just like get anger turned on without it even having a cause? Can I just feel that there's an under, like, as, as Eva was saying, there's so much to be angry about. I don't, I can just, can I just find it in the body
without needing a story?
Eva: Ooh, I like that practice. Ooh, I like that.
Courtney: so then I don't have to blame anyone. I don't have to find a villain. I can just like get with like there's a room over here
that's ready to go at any moment.
Kyley: Because our bodies don't give a shit about the story. Right. Our body just wants to feel and then move, especially 'cause anger [00:19:00] is such an, a free, an energy of like movement and momentum. Like it wants to move. Right.
Um, which I think is also why sometimes I know I can be disassociated with it because there's a lot of me that's like, but we could stay.
Eva: Mm-hmm.
Kyley: Um, yeah. I, I, I, I love, I love and I love the somatic response I'm having to this conversation. It is very useful.
Eva: Okay.
Courtney: I work with women and I like their husbands sometimes are like, I'm wearing women's scripts in here in Santa Barbara. And like so many of the men have been like, Courtney, what are you doing? Like, ah, like. I'm like, just trust me that like, you know, like if your partner can be with anger, she can also be with desire.
Kyley: Mm-hmm.
Courtney: Um, and so that's another sort of like big cue I think is like, is your sexual energy down. Um, because that's often a, a leaky indication that there's anger that's being suppressed, um, [00:20:00] because they run pretty closely together in the body.
And so I I say to some of the men of women that I'm working with, that I'm close with, like, hang on.
like, like Yeah. promise you like, if we can just like get through this, You're gonna love this. like the anger, is tricky to be with, but don't you wanna turned on wife?
Like, would you be willing Mm. with her anger so that you can feel her full aliveness?
Kyley: Mm.
Eva: Mm-hmm.
Kyley: Now that we're talking about sex, well, first of all, a part of me has to be like, everybody, please know that I am very, I am, I'm very healthy in that area. I just have more suppressed anger anyways, which is very funny to notice. There's like a, like,
I just need everyone to know I'm having great sex. you have a rocking sex life. Sorry.
yes. But perhaps if I let myself get angry, it could get even better, which I've totally down for.
Um, but also now that we're talking about sex, this feels like an amazing place for us to pivot to the seven deadly sins,
um, which I know is like a cornerstone of this gorgeous book that you [00:21:00] wrote. And if you could just like open up this worldview for us around the seven deadly sins and the, and the, and the work that you wrote, co-wrote.
Courtney: I mean, I love talking about this, so thank you for this question. I, I wanna take us back in time a little bit to, um, where the seven deadly sins come from, and then I can walk you through where it shows up in the book and then where it shows up more broadly in the Enneagram itself, because it, that's, um, the seven deadly sins is like a, like a trunk of a tree that supports a lot of the different branches of my work.
Um, the Seven Deadly Sins originate from a monk named EVAs Ticus, was an early Christian monk who lived in Egypt, and he had a monastery that was accepting like early Christian acolytes. And they would travel to the Egyptian desert and then they would show up at the monastery and pledge themselves to God.[00:22:00]
And he started tracking. In what ways did these human beings get in their own way of their commitment to being one with God? They would show up with the best of intentions here. They would've traveled all this way, and then various things would happen. And some of them would get greedy and, you know, over consume.
And some of them would get homesick and cry and some of them would be scared. And they started, they, they had reactions that got in their way of their commitment and he wrote, started tracking them and he started for the very first time, which is a very Western tradition, categorizing these different ways human beings self-sabotaged.
And we call them the sevenly dead seven deadly sins now, but the original word was logis [00:23:00] mo, which is missing the mark that is the Greek meaning of that word. And what it means is have acquired habits over here that ultimately started with a seed of wanting to take care of myself and actually wanting to have a spiritual experience here on this material plane.
But then as I've habituated myself to that pattern and come to identify myself with it, and it's become an automated thing rather than an intentional way of showing up, it's now kind of off to the races and it's gotten perverted and I'm overdoing it. And when I overdo it. This original set of behaviors that was about taking care of myself in both a material way and in a spiritual way.
It now is a cage [00:24:00] that's keeping me locked in a way of being that ultimately backfires. And so the sins originally were not things about being bad or something wrong with us. They were about this very human urge to have a spiritual experience that then because of the way human beings work with personality and automation in the brain and identity and blind spots, then becomes so calcified that it no longer serves us.
And the original seven there, there were originally started out, um, there were originally eight.
Eva: Hmm.
Courtney: I'll just use lust as an example to give some meat to what I'm talking about.
Eva: you remind me of what the seventh Deadly sins are and also what, I guess eight was just 'cause I think it'll be a helpful refresher.
Courtney: yeah. Okay. So, um, I'm gonna talk [00:25:00] the, I'll give the English word 'cause this is how we know them, but they, like, you wanna be technical, like they actually have, um, more nuanced meaning, um, that gives some color to it. But I'll start out with lust, sloth wrath, pride, the original one that got dropped, uh, vain Glory or Vanity
Eva: Mm-hmm.
Courtney: Envy, avarice, which is another, it's, we think of greed, but it, it really is about stinginess and gluttony.
And so just to use an example, lust. And so anyway, so that he publishes this book, it kind of has these like more beautiful and more humane and more human ways of understanding the human condition. And then it takes seven or 800 years, but it gets then consolidated in Catholic doctrine and then [00:26:00] gets associated with sins or corruption.
Um, and, and then there's an association with Mary Magdalene and so specifically sins that women or um, have their own relationship to. And so now fast forward 2000 years. Um, we now have a very secular understanding of these, what I would call fundamental like human conditions that is about good, bad behavior or moralizing go this direction, don't go this direction.
Um, and the book Choosing Wholeness Over Goodness is about that secular understanding of good, bad behavior. What we've inherited
Kyley: Hmm.
Courtney: through that 2000 year plus translation of what was originally a very beautiful concept and the way that hurts and harms women, but then the story of the Enneagram and how you work with these aspects of what it means to be human that is sort of more faithful to the original [00:27:00] construct.
Kyley: I am so struck as a, you know, former Catholic, always culturally Catholic. Um, like that this is the origin story of the seven deadly sins is blowing my mind. Like, oh, this sounds beautiful and, and, um,
curious and not drowning, entrenched in shame. What?
Eva: Yeah.
Kyley: Wow, What would it like to be, and what would it be like to really see these parts of the human condition without that layer of shame on top of it?
Yeah, Just to see it.
Courtney: And so to give an example for lust, just 'cause that's what we were talking about, sex. And I think
it'll it'll have more meaning what I just said, just to use one example.
So, um, lust, when you kind of get back to what lust really is, lust is like a zest [00:28:00] for life.
Kyley: Yeah.
Courtney: Like a zest for feeling fully alive and reverberating with
just like how, like what does it feel like to have a body that's got like, that, like has energetic potential and vibrates and like, I just like to be on this planet and to just like really get with life force coursing through you, like in your cells, in your blood, in the, um, the churn of your digestion, the, your heartbeat, the breath, the respiratory rate, the of your cells.
Like what would it be like to really just feel into the pulsation that is happening at an elemental level in the body and that is aliveness.
It's actually a quality [00:29:00] that when I really tune into the present moment through Body Sensation as the portal into presence, I can feel it
inside me.
Kyley: Yeah.
Courtney: And then what happens is shit happens and I don't always feel that and I disassociate or something bad happens. Or actually, if I were to really get with the present moment, someone's hurting me, someone's not being nice to me, I gotta figure out now, like the present moment doesn't just contain that reverberation, it contains a bunch of other things.
And so then as a human being, I check out. From the present moment. 'cause I can't, it's got a fuller experience
that I can't be with. And so I check out in various ways really intelligently because it's overwhelming me. But when I check out, I lose that connection to [00:30:00] fundamental aliveness in a way that's actually devastating.
Kyley: Yeah.
Courtney: And so lust then is about a set of behaviors that we all do, but through the lens of the Enneagram. Some people do more than others, that is about behaviors that are like an artificial construct for trying to get me back to that experience of life force in the body.
Eva: Mm-hmm.
Courtney: And so lust, which we understand in the modern LE setting and modern English is about like, you know, wanting to have sex too much.
Um, you know. Like a sexual energy and being wanton about it. That is an element of one way we try to feel and manufacture life force in the body, but actually it's a broader set of behaviors that's about like disproportionate [00:31:00] force control, um, uh, artificial intensity.
Kyley: Mm-hmm.
Courtney: That's all what lust originally starts as.
It's like a poor man's proxy for the natural experience of full aliveness in the body.
Eva: Wow. That's
beautiful. [00:32:00] [00:33:00]
Kyley: I am getting like, so excited to go nerd out with like old Catherine Doctrine shit. Like, there's a, a lot of like percolating little explosions that are happening in my brain around this. And I am appreciating this particular facet of the conversation because I've been thinking a lot about wildness lately, and I've been thinking about, you know, uh, cultivating like, and like reconnecting with my own wildness and kind of recognizing where I have kind of like, I, I stepped into a kind of tame way of existing 'cause I needed to, right?
I was, I was, uh, [00:34:00] recovering from something and life is happening and blah, blah, blah. Anyway. Point being, I've just been noticing lately this thing that you're calling lust and this like aliveness I'm thinking about of wildness and of like, what does it look like to like, like reconnect and deepen that connection and sustain that connection, right.
Instead of the, like, we touch into it and then we run away.
Courtney: Yeah.
Kyley: Right. But like, let ourselves live there, but without being consumed by it.
Courtney: Mm-hmm.
Kyley: it is, it also can be, um, consuming. So I don't have a particularly astute observation other than an appreciation of like, you're giving another, uh, like lexicon for a question I've been living in.
And I, I like that up.
Eva: Yes.
Courtney: Well, and I know this is a concept of, you know, returning to the wild or my wild nature. I mean it's, there's a lot of books that are written about it and I, I think that's a really interesting question. And then it's always, well, how do I do that?
Kyley: Mm-hmm.
Courtney: And you know, for me it would be, it would start with can I touch into [00:35:00] the bodily sensations of aliveness and can I, and life force, and do I know what those feel like and can I get comfortable with them and can I find it without trying to manufacture it?
Eva: Mm-hmm.
Mm-hmm.
Courtney: But then what would it be like to really trust, there's an intelligence to win that life force rises and falls.
Eva: Hmm. Wow. I think what I'm really curious about is like, so you have this beautiful framework, it sounds like, you know, using the, this, you know, the seven deadly sins and, and and, and seeing how it's been co-opted and misinterpreted. And I think what I'm mostly curious about is, and this is for personal selfish reasons of like, what have you learned about this that can help particularly women choose wholeness over goodness? Because I think that's ultimately what you're speaking to is like, uh, like I am, I am, I, I fret [00:36:00] over how often consciously or unconsciously I move towards goodness because it's like I've, you know, as I continue to continue to explore myself and decondition myself, it's like my, my main. I can, I, I have pinpointed how everything, all of my, so much of my suffering comes from feeling like it's wrong to be bad and I have the story, and, and that I am bad, you know? And how I've just tried to do as much as I can to be good, and as a result I disappear myself. You know, like it's this, like desperate need for safety
and belonging.
And it's like, I can feel the desperation of, okay, I just need to be good. I just need to be good. And it feels like, okay, as long as I'm good, then I'll be o then I'll be okay.
And it probably has a lot to do, like, you know, trauma, past traumas and all of that. And so what you're offering, I think is like, okay, choose, uh, like such a delicious premise for me, like choosing a wholeness over goodness. And I'm assuming that it's all, you know, you use [00:37:00] this framework of the seven deadly sins and it sounds like the Enneagram as well to help women do that, because
this is a very broad question, but what can you share to help. Women like me,
uh, who are desperate to choose wholeness over goodness,
Courtney: Uhhuh.
Women like me, women like me too,
Eva: women, like us. Yes. People yeah.
Courtney: Yeah. Um, I mean, I, I think the first thing I'll say is the, there's a Carl Jung quote, I'd rather be whole than good. That's at the beginning of the book that my, my co-author Elise, uh, remembered. And that's where we got the title.
And I do think it is such a beautiful aspirational destination. And
what you are speaking to, which is what the book is about, is we have preconceived notions about good or bad behavior that some of them are temperamental, some of those are a function of our [00:38:00] family, our community, our culture, gender, et cetera. And then what happens is the minute I have pre preconceived notions about what good, what is good, and what is bad, by definition, I am limiting my contact with presence.
Because I already have an agenda or like I can, I'm comfortable going this direction, but I'm not comfortable going this direction. It's opposite. And when I come to the present moment with a preconceived notion about what I'm willing to do and what I'm not willing to do, I am already disassociating from what's one way.
Uh, and one active definition of presence for a body that actually makes decisions like human beings is like being receptive to what is real and what is being asked of us. What would it, what would it actually mean to be responsible, which is responsive
Kyley: Mm-hmm.[00:39:00]
Courtney: rather than responsible being good.
Eva: Mm-hmm.
Courtney: And so one way that I think of wholeness is, do I give myself the full plane of reality and behavior?
The full range to respond, trusting that when I give myself that full range, I'm actually increasing my responsiveness and receptivity to what's real. And then while the book is about gender constructs that create these notions of good, bad, that are often, as I said, inherited, the Enneagram is really about at a personality level, one of us has a particular quality of the present moment that [00:40:00] feels extra yummy to us.
And so we talked about aliveness as one example of that. So that's one particular Enneagram type who has a bias towards experiencing aliveness. And we all have those, there's
Eva: Yeah. What are the other biases? I'm curious.
Courtney: Um, it, it would take me like a, a while to go through them, but like, but you know, like, like another one might be, um, like harmony, like the type sitting right next to the one that wants to feel aliveness type is called type nine the peacemaker.
And this is about what does it re harmony is the, um, experience of multiple notes being played at the same time to create one sound.
And so what does it feel like to actually be in harmony with the whole unfolding of this [00:41:00] universe? I am both one sound ringing my little bell. And at the same time that Bell is ringing with everything else and making one sound, one sons beautiful noise.
Eva: Mm-hmm.
Courtney: And so that type is going to condition themselves to lean into behaviors that are in service of harmony.
And then begins to create like a poor man's version of harmony, which is about like false peace, comfort, soothing, like spiritual bypass,
suppression of anger.
All is well here, don't look too close under the covers, like all is well,
Eva: Mm-hmm.
Courtney: and it's a totally different way of operating and showing up in the [00:42:00] world that originates from.
Some types are tuned to aliveness. Some types are tuned to harmony. Some types are tuned to love. Some types are tuned to freedom.
Eva: Mm-hmm.
Courtney: Some types are, oh, go ahead.
Eva: to say, I've just never really been too that drawn to the Enneagram, but the way that you speak about it, I'm like, the next, the immediately after I get off this call, like I wanna go and I don't, you know, that might be the, like, the, like the beginner's version of, you know, taking a test online and seeing what your
Enneagram is, but like, you know, but there's a richness in the way that you speak about each, you know, each type anyway.
And so I'm, I'm like,
so enchant enchanted with this, the way that you interact with the Enneagram.
Courtney: Thank you.
Kyley: the perfect word. I was feeling the exact, I, it's, it's, it's been on my awareness before and I've never, you know, it, it never like sang the song to pull me that far in. And as you're talking about it, I'm like, oh God, I just wanna swim around in this.
So Yes,
it
is, it, [00:43:00] I I underscore what Eva
Eva: yes. But I'm sorry, I interrupted you. So you were talking about how we each are attuned to a certain
Courtney: yeah, and I think it really piggybacks on what you're speaking to, which is, you know, sort of the superficial way of, um, diving into the Enneagram is to like, I'm gonna figure out what type and I I am, and I'm gonna figure out what type you are, and I'm gonna type everybody and I'm gonna put people in these like little boxes of what types they are.
And there's a usefulness to that. Like in terms of, um, corporate environments when we're working in teams or like in marriages or with children. Like there's, there's plenty good to be had from understanding, um, people through the lens of what their habits and automated behaviors are and what mine are.
So I don't wanna dismiss that, but. And to me, the larger opportunity, which relates to your question of wholeness rather than goodness, is that, and I think is what you're sort of, um, intuitively having a whole body kind of like, I don't know if I like the Enneagram. Is, is because [00:44:00] when we identify with type, like I'm I, I'm type nine, I'm identified with harmony, what we're doing is we are saying, look, I prefer this, I prefer harmony.
And I've overindexed that aspect of being human at the expense of being in touch with all these other aspects of what it means to be human. And so to me, one of the broader opportunities when we study the Enneagram is not just to understand at a type level who I am and who you are, but to really see that when I over identify with one way of being in the world, I'm really denying I have to therefore also deny then other ways of being in the world.
And I have to under index
Kyley: Okay.
Courtney: would it be like to, rather than be tuned into harmony, to be tuned into aliveness or [00:45:00] tuned into freedom, or tuned into mental clarity. And so part of, I was sort of talking about wholeness in an action oriented way, which is being receptive and responsive to what the moment requires.
But another version of wholeness is I am listening. To whatever is both in presence inside myself and in presence outside myself, which are really the same thing. It's an artificial distinction. And if I were to really get tuned into what, what is the delicious, maybe painful, but ultimately also delicious experience of the present moment.
Right now, I might feel freedom. I might feel harmony, I might feel love. And what would it be like to just let whatever aspect of the human experience is coming through me, [00:46:00] just really, you know, kind of deliciously relish in it like I was just doing around aliveness and harmony and can I do that for all of the qualities?
And the Enneagram really is like a map that helps provide some language
around what those different things to tune into might be.
Eva: Mm-hmm.
Courtney: And to me that would be one definition of wholeness is I, I, I have given myself permission
Eva: Mm-hmm.
Courtney: to have the full range of a human experience arise through me in the now moment
[00:47:00] I.
Eva: I, for me, what I love about this is it's really coming full circle back to our original topic on anger. 'cause we had already explored like, what does it mean to feel, I, I think what you're talking about is like giving ourselves the, the freedom to feel the full range of our human experience. Anger is a perfect example of that, which we talked about.
It's like, okay, well you to feel the sensations. Like, you know, 'cause was like, that's great, and then how do we do that? And it's like, I think we are, we already talk, like we have a framework for that. We go in and we feel the emotions and the [00:48:00] sensations of it. And then also we be with the fears that come right on.
Its coattails, right? Any, any resistance that comes up afterwards. And so yeah. What, when as you speak, I'm just in inspired to let you know, even without having the framework of Enneagram, but just really what I'm taking away is like being a present person, which is to be, with whatever's coming up in my experience, whether that's excitement or existential dread or boredom, you know, it, it could be, it could be something dull and it could be something bright,
but to, to be with it all and then to notice whatever stories come up on its coattails that say, no, no, no, no, no, that's not okay.
Or, or that's scary or that's bad and, and what a fun experiment. What a fun way to just be. Myself and with life. And again, no sep, no separation, right? So
Courtney: Yeah.
Eva: yeah.
Courtney: Like kind of makes you like, like, oh, it's pretty cool to be human, actually,
like.
Eva: Mm-hmm.
Kyley: Yeah. I'm also, um, I feel like you're giving us a ma a model around [00:49:00] like a curiously exploring wholeness. Right. The, the thing that's so insidious about this like perfectionist arrival state narrative that we have been cooked in is that it pop, you know, it pops up. And so something like a spiritual journey or wholeness becomes a state of arrival, right?
And then we constantly measure ourselves as not having arrived, and we can go back to, you know, being mean to ourselves or, um, being dissatisfied. And I, I appreciate there's something in the way that you're speaking to this map of Enneagram and the play between Enneagram and the seven deadly sins that feels just like this curious exploration, like, of like almost dabbling, but in a really lovely way.
And I am, I, I like that. I like that a lot.
Courtney: Yeah, I re um, I had the same thought just as you were speaking that. Choosing wholeness of our goodness. It's such a profound, as I said, aspiration and it, and it isn't a destina like there actually is no, like wholeness by definition is an [00:50:00] emergent experience. Um, because it has to include, always has to include whatever is arising,
right? The wholeness always has, is constantly expanding, constantly, um, needing to change shape if it's truly whole.
Kyley: You know, we were talking about the discomfort of anger earlier, right? And, and why we might be uncomfortable with it. And I think when I, I would love to ask you guys a question. Why do you think we find wholeness so uncomfortable, right? From this, this example of wholeness, right? Which is that it's this, it is, which is also presence, which is this like moment, uh, in time that is always shifting and evolving.
But we know what it feels like, right? When you're experiencing, when you're having a taste of that wholeness and then, you know, we run away or we get distracted or, or, or, um, which then gives us an opportunity to go back, right? So it's, that's its own beautiful, delicious thing. Um, [00:51:00] but why, where do you think that. Your, that fear come from, at least in your own personal experience.
Eva: I have some thoughts that Courtney, I would love to hear what you wanna share first.
Courtney: Are you sure?
Eva: Yeah.
Courtney: mean, I'll do it. I, I mean I, my head is going to the Enneagram, so I'm gonna maybe just talk for a minute about that. Um, you know, so the first thing I would say is, um, you know, we talked about, um, aliveness and then it's um, it's poor cousin lust, which is for type eight, the challenger. We talked about type ninex very briefly, the peacemaker, um, who's overly indexed on harmony.
And then, um, its poor cousin, comfort, soothing, disassociation those behaviors. False peace, I might say. But it's really interesting that this conversation, 'cause we started with [00:52:00] anger and now we're the next type is type one, the reformer and, um, what this type, their fundamental, yummy. Experience is what does it feel like to be vertically integrated and to feel an alignment with some higher ideal, whether it's divine, or it could just be like a platonic ideal of a beautiful podcast or a beautiful haircut or you know, a beautiful meal that there is this idealized notion of what that could be.
And I feel my body, my whole being, everything that is material about me is in alignment with that.
And so wholeness is both [00:53:00] welcoming of everything that's on the vertical dimension, but then a welcoming of everything that's on the horizontal dimension as well.
And what happens for type one, this feeling of alignment in the body, like I stand up straighter, like I feel organized on purpose. I feel fundamentally good actually because I trust that if I'm in connection to an ideal and I'm in alignment with it, then what's coming through me is, is reverberating with the divine
and that has to be good. And so that's the what I'm attached to. And then. I begin to notice all of the [00:54:00] ways I lose alignment and anger comes on the scene to bring me back into alignment, I think. And so anger is about, as we said, like what is serving me? What is not serving me? So the clean expression of anger would be, I have an idealized notion or I have a set of values or I like, and things are not
back into alignment, but then I begin to mistake rigidity and anger and control for what alignment feels like.
Eva: Oh my God. I'm feeling a little bit called out right now. Like, I'm like, am I a one? Okay.
Courtney: And so, and so, to me, that's, that's what the dilemma of wholeness is about is I [00:55:00] have to let go of rigid notions of good, bad, and the familiarity of I know what to do. I know how to organize, I know how to, like, I know because that's that emergent definition of wholeness. It goes very much back to the, what we were talking about.
Like if I were to trust anger, it is about this is not serving me and I don't know what comes next, but this is not serving me. Stop.
And there is an, the unknown is baked into that in a way that is asking us to trust that we can experience alignment. Without knowing how or what it looks like.
Eva: Interesting. So wait to make sure I understand. Essentially, to kind of question you, what about un wholeness or wholeness can make us feel uncomfortable? And you're saying that [00:56:00] Wholeness asks of us and requires us to expand into different parts of ourselves that we are maybe aren't used to. Right. It's like. We have our guiding light, but wholeness means that we have to, um, expand beyond that and let all of it in, all of it in, and of course, that's gonna feel really uncomfortable. Maybe dysregulating or, or we might, yeah. Uh, be hard to let that in for various reasons,
Courtney: Yeah. We might be, we'll be over, we, we could be overwhelmed by the sensations of all that. We're not gonna have a fixed set of identity of like, who, who is Courtney? Who is Kyley? Who is Evo? We won't know.
Eva: Mm-hmm.
Courtney: We won't have a rigid plan of safety or certainty, familiarity. So we're gonna have to trust moment to moment unfolding.
Eva: Mm-hmm.
Courtney: And you know, there's this knife edge of like wholeness. I both [00:57:00] wanna be expanded into everything, but I also don't wanna lose myself. And that's what identity is about, right? Is like, but I like my own little island over here. And so, you know.
Eva: Yes.
I, to share my answer, I, I'm just laughing because I think I, there's a crossover in our answers where I, I, I think you're, I, I'll say something similar, I think, but in a different way. But, you know, to Kylie's question, why is wholeness uncomfortable or scary? Is it's because I, I feel like when I've touched into it, mm. Like my partner likes to say like, love kills everything, but it's not, and so we are love when, or wholeness. You could even say that it's the same thing. And so that wholeness or that kill or that love kills everything that's false. Which is separate, which is, which is my identity, Eva. If I think I'm an Eva, I'm immediately separate from the world. And so the wholeness and the love just [00:58:00] shatters that. And it's terrifying, but it's also so beautiful because it's just killing, you know, the false parts of myself. But, but there needs to be a willingness to let go, to let go, you know, of, of this cherished identity that I love so much. And, and I say that without any self condemnation, you know?
Like I, yeah, I can, I understand why I hold onto my identity, but in moments where I have felt wholeness, like real pure wholeness and love, I, I just cry. I, I am crying because I'm overwhelmed with like, the generosity of love and beauty and, and, and coherence in the world. And it's like, oh, it's, it's actually been this beautiful this whole time. And, you know, and I just, and it's, it's, and it can be overwhelming for the system, but it's very humbling. It's like tears of humility, you know?
Courtney: Mm-hmm.
Eva: Um, you know, it's like, and again, my partner will say, just, just let it kill you. Like, just let the love kill you. And it, and it can be like a burning, it can be [00:59:00] overwhelming, but it ultimately feels like being reborn, honestly, to
use, to use that language.
Yeah. So it's scary and beautiful.
Courtney: I'm really, I'm tuning into you. I really appreciate you sharing that.
Eva: Oh, thank you.
Kyley: Yeah. I love that
answer.
Eva: because I imagine as you're working with clients and people and women, you know, you had mentioned like in your book or just in your work, are there tools that you offer for when people, when people run into roadblocks, which is what we're bringing to, you know, we're bringing to you our roadblocks or things that, um, we imagine people struggle with.
Courtney: Yeah. I mean, it's like, um. Each person has got a his or her own path. Their own path. But then some of the tools that we can use to work with it are the same regardless of what the path is. And some of what we've been talking about is just, you know, really expanding capacity to be with [01:00:00] sensation. And that's a fundamental core thing that I do, no matter what your issue is or what your type is, or what I'm grappling with over here in my own being is can I be with, can I ever expand my, my capacity to be with sensation?
Um, the second thing is, um, really practicing. There's not just a being with like at a bodily level, but there's fundamental compassion or self-acceptance for whatever is arising. And so that's work around shame and layers of, can I just, can I unconditionally accept in the heart?
Eva: Mm-hmm.
Courtney: Whatever is arising in me.
And so that's work that I, I in lots of different ways of doing that. Um, and then the third component is really like trying to have like a good time and be kind of funny about this. And so there's a lot of different work around the different parts and the different selves. And some [01:01:00] of that can be like IFS looking, but some of that can be like what we call persona play or persona work, which is just about naming like what, what's the, what's the version of self that's arising right now?
And can I be really curious about him or her and like what she looks like, what she cares about, how she holds herself, what she believes, how she got here, what her superpower is,
and can I really just like give her life
Eva: Mm-hmm.
Courtney: for a few moments? What.
Eva: don't wanna tell listeners, like, you've just got this big, beautiful smile on your face and the energy. I'm just so appreciate you bringing this energy in because sometimes like, it just feels so serious. You know,
when you're talking about the seven deadly sins, it's like so serious and it's a reminder of like, it can be not that serious.
It can be playful and goofy and silly and,
and fun.
Kyley: I
had the most delicious experience that feels very related to this. Just the other day I was, um, receiving a really beautiful session and we were talking a little bit about like self-censorship and like [01:02:00] what a, you know, um, uh, and, and we, we stumbled upon the part that is my, like micro, the micromanager of my voice and, um. As soon as we started talking about it. 'cause I often describe how much I want to say I'm feeling like a traffic jam that's like, been a regular occurrence for me. There's so much that I wanna say that it feels like a traffic jam and I say less than I want. Um, um, and we were tapped into the traffic cop and she immediately looked exactly like the fucking busy body traffic cop at my kid's school, who is just like such a pain in the ass, but in this way that I adore her.
Like I a, 'cause she's just like a character from a sitcom, you know? Or like, she like stepped right out of the Dublins if it was set in South Shore, Massachusetts. You know, just like, ugh. She's deliciously annoying. And so her name is, her real name I don't think is Barb, but we named her Barb. And now every time I pick up my kids from school, I just see her and I just start cracking up because I can [01:03:00] like. Well, that's like, Hey Barb, you're just like managing, managing my voice. And like, you know, you do, you we're gonna work on getting you in early retirement, but keep up the good work,
Courtney: I mean, I love Barb already. I
mean, and like the analogy of the traffic jam, right, is like, I mean, Barb is here to keep everybody safe.
I mean, Barb is here to make sure no one, like there's no accidents. Like there's, I mean like shit does not go down. And so where would we be without
Kyley: and if she's a self-important pain in the butt, like she thinks she's earned fat, you know?
Courtney: Yeah.
Kyley: Yeah.
And it does make it So much more fun. Yes.
Courtney: Yeah. And it really is like a, it is, it is wholeness in practice,
which is this part of me that has a genius that I bow to. What she's done for me
Kyley: Mm-hmm.
Courtney: and now she's like a little overactive and doesn't know that there's other tools and other parts like, and other things available to Kyley.
You know, she [01:04:00] like, can we introduce her to all the other kids in the bus?
Kyley: Yes.
Courtney: And we do not wanna get rid of her. We love her.
Kyley: yeah, yeah,
Courtney: We just want like her to be, have context for, there's many, many other ways of doing and being that Kyley knows at this point.
And so can we love on her, can we find her hilarious and adorable and like, can we actually intentionally bring her out at times when she is of service?
Kyley: Yes. And in the meantime, like I've set her up with a little lawn chair and a dunk at ICE Dunking Donuts, and she's like watching the traffic. You know, she's
not managing it, but she's, she's there if she needs to be called in, you know?
Courtney: Yeah. Yeah.
Yeah.
So that persona work, which I learned, um, at Conscious Leadership Group, and it's originally originated by Katie Hendricks, is it's like a very playful way of doing IFS. Um, and a playfulness is [01:05:00] like one of the core values of one of the Enneagram types that I personally under index
Eva: Mm-hmm.
Courtney: and have really learned that, like what would it be like to commit to playfulness
Eva: Mm-hmm.
Courtney: as a quality of presence
and how does, and like immediately what we're, and like it just changes the whole way
Kyley: Yeah.
Courtney: we relate to ourselves and makes it so much more fun.
But also like, actually it helps us in this, all these other values around aliveness, around harmony, around wholeness. Like they are not inconsistent.
Kyley: it's interesting that you mentioned playfulness being something you under index. Obviously this is our first interaction, but you have such a like. Sprightly playful energy to you.
Um, and so I would offer, I suspect your efforts to like bring it online have been successful.
Eva: I would. I would agree. [01:06:00] Yes. I
just, again, that the word de delightful just is top of
Courtney: Aw,
thank you.
Well, I mean, it's true that I, I do have a, you know, maybe it is part of my core being to be playful 'cause it's the core being of all of us. And I got a, I got a Barb and I got lots of other versions of Barb who thinks play is
super serious. Like, this is really serious, this thing that we're doing here.
And um,
Eva: Yeah. Yeah. Oh man.
Kyley: Yep, yep, yep.
I'm deeply familiar with that
one.
Courtney: Yeah.
Oscar Wild has a great line that like some things are too serious to be taken seriously.
Kyley: Oh yeah. That's good. That's
Eva: say probably most things,
Courtney: Yeah. Yeah.
Eva: um, Courtney,
I feel like we could talk to you forever. You're just like this Well, of wisdom that I would just, and, and as you speak, I feel this medicine just flowing through my body and so I just wanna say thank you, but I'm also conscious of time and so, [01:07:00] um, well, we wanna do well, is there anything else that you'd like to share before we do our, um, before you share where people work, can find you When we do our, uh, round of joy.
Kyley: Nice. See you tomorrow.
Courtney: Yeah, I mean, if people are intrigued by the Enneagram as you were, no pressure. But if that's something that, um, a listener finds themselves experiencing, they can find me on my website. But also, um, the test I recommend is on the Enneagram Institute's website. And I, I think, um, online tests are, are largely, they're not super accurate.
Um, and so any test you take, whether it's that one or some of the other ones out there, i, I really would take with a huge grain of salt,
um, really consider it like an opening. It's like table stakes. It. Using the Enneagram as a process for inquiry and growth and really relate to the test, not through like, I gotta get my type right, but this is [01:08:00] just my first step towards engaging with what I think is a really beautiful, deep, rich, and powerful tool.
Um,
Eva: Mm-hmm.
Courtney: and then there's lots of books that you can buy, lots of podcasts you can listen to, and I would really keep an open mind, like if you an open mind about what your type might be. But that is the place I send people.
Um, and so I, I say that only because I, I, I just anticipate there might be a few listeners who want that information.
Eva: Mm-hmm.
Kyley: yeah.
Courtney: but
Eva: Okay. So, wait, a follow up question to that though. So once we take the test, is the process, is it a process of, um, you know, we could read the books and maybe even speak with you, but is it that ultimately we decide, you know, through our own internal wisdom where we say, this is what I relate to most?
Yeah. How does one?
Courtney: I mean, this is like an and question where I feel like on the one hand, nobody knows you better than yourself and you know, we are all really com the ego is committed to keeping [01:09:00] our blind spots blind.
Eva: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Yeah. Yeah, yeah. Yeah. So it is, so it can be helpful to speak with someone who,
Courtney: yes. Or if you have a partner, you know, like whether it's a professional or even a, like, like, you know, I really resisted my type for a long time. In fact, sometimes I feel like resisting the type is like with some juice to the resistance is often like a sign like.
Eva: Yeah, Yeah, yeah. Okay.
Yep.
Courtney: Um, so, so even really relying on people that are close to you, and, and this is where a book could be helpful.
Um, you know, like, look, I'm going back and forth between these two types. Um, can you read these paragraphs and, you know, how do you experience me? Um, and I really like people, um, if they're really honest. I like people to be able to recognize themselves in the ba the, the ugly bits. I'm putting in quotation marks, um, around each of the types because, um, we can kind of dilute ourselves and, and, and the, the.
Positive attributes of each of the types begin to [01:10:00] kind of fuzz together a little bit. Um, because the more present we are really the whole, you know, we have the whole palette available to us. Um, so I really like to point people to like, get honest with yourself about what your limitations are and use that to help you figure out which of the types you are.
Because that's where it gets more specific
and that's where like the reckoning of, if I'm really honest with myself, this is where I get in my own way, versus I can really see myself in the beautiful parts of this type.
Um, so that would be, that would be my counsel.
Eva: I love
Kyley: I love this, and
Eva: good. Practical advice.
Kyley: if people wanna work with you in addition to your book Choosing Wholeness Over Goodness, where can they go? How can they find you?
Courtney: So I'm not currently. Yeah. So thank you for asking help asking me to shine and come forward. I appreciate it. My website is courtney smith consulting.com. Um, and you can, um, you know, inquire about [01:11:00] individual sessions, although my, my schedule is pretty limited. Uh, but I'll also be putting out some workshops probably later in the year and we'll continue to do more of that.
Um, and there's a bunch of other podcasts you can find, and then I have a sub stack called what we're really up to. Um, and you can find me there.
Kyley: Amazing. Thank you. What is bringing you joy right now?
Courtney: I love that we're ending on this question because, you know, joy is very connected to playfulness. Um, and what is currently bringing me joy is I have three teenage children and I am just delighting and they're unfolding.
Um, I'm just really, uh, feel such a privilege to get to watch their more mature selves, um, come forward.
Uh, and it's like I'm really committed to seeing them like delighting in the new parts of them that are peaking out, um, in Teenagehood. It is just, it's bringing me so much joy.
Eva: Hmm. [01:12:00] Yeah, it sounds like a different level of fun. I mean, young children are fun, but also teenagers are fun there too. They're smart and they're, they're fast and they're, they got some
Courtney: Oh my God, they're hilarious. And they're like teaching me how to use AI and all kinds of, I mean, it's just like, oh my God, you're funny. Uh, so I'm just the lighting in it.
Kyley: Mine are younger, mine are seven and nine. But I, I, and so I first of all just love when people talk about loving parenting teenagers. 'cause I think it's, it that's not, that's not the story people love to tell. Right. But also, I just love it more and more the older they get, like it just, just gets more And like, it was fun and cute when they were babies, but like, oh, they're, they're just so curious and interesting and like weird in a great way and just like, oh, I just love it as they're just, it's just fun.
So yeah. Thanks for sharing
that Eva. My love was bringing you joy.
Eva: Um, well we were talking about wildness actually, and I was thinking about [01:13:00] the recent, we did a retreat here in Brazil. Um, we have this like dome in the jungle actually. And we had a ceremony where truly like it was a huge celebration of life. And we had some shamans come in. From the Amazon and they were playing like music from their village and people were on the drums.
And it was, mean, I really remember there was a moment where I was like, I want to take a picture of this with my eyes. I never wanna forget this moment. And of course, the moment I started grasping it, like, you know, dissolved, but it was this feeling of like, it was wild and it was free and it was wholesome and it was beautiful.
And we were surrounded by this beautiful jungle. And the, the spirit of nature, I think is very alive for me here. And it was just bare feet, like pounding on the floor and jumping. And it was, it was such a rare moment of like, I don't need to, I don't need anything from this. It wasn't like, uh, this has, something has to come out of [01:14:00] this.
There was also no self-consciousness. It was just being really open and free with another, with a beautiful group of people who were also opening up and. You know, welcoming in freedom. And it was so, it was just
stunning. It was a stunning event. And so, um, I do think there's something about my time here in Brazil that gets me more in touch with my wildness, and I really think that has a lot to do with connecting with nature.
I think nature is a wonderful teacher for being wild, and it's just like, just go spend time in nature and, and it'll, you know, you'll remember your own wildness.
So that, that's my joy.
Kyley: Oh.
Eva: What about you, Kyley?
Kyley: Um, I have been having such a rich, like, ancestor journey lately that I am really, really, I, I feels actually like being on the beginning of like, that feeling of, oh, I just stepped onto a path and I don't know where that's gonna go, but it's gonna be. Real great. Um, [01:15:00] I'm Irish American. I once took a quiz, you know, to be like, maybe I'm other things.
You know, people find out all sorts of, it's like, no, no honey, you are, you are Irish American, the British Isles, uh, and the Celts, uh, it's you. Um, uh, and yeah, there's just been like a bunch of really lovely small and big moments of feeling really like I'm being woven into the fabric of ancestry and ancestral magic, including like Catholic folk magic, including like trees and which I would have very deep, like juridic roots.
Having like just this deep feeling of like feeling, I dunno, the call of my ancestors speaking to me in a way that I feel really like held by. And, um, excited to like find out where we go. They're like Ireland, you go put your feet back on the land. Thank you very much. So,
Eva: [01:16:00] Yeah, I see that in your future, near future, and I'm excited for what you're gonna find. Yeah. Okay. Thank you so much, Courtney. This was such an amazing delight. You're a pleasure.
Courtney: Oh, I had so much fun with you guys. I really appreciate, um, both of your spirits. Um, really thank you for having me.