This episode is special. It felt like equal parts conversation and divine transmission; we *felt* different on the other side. We discuss what it means to belong, to live in true relationship to life, to embrace the paradox of interconnectedness and differentiation. To listen, deeply, to things unknowable. Dive on in, loves!
This episode is special. It felt like equal parts conversation and divine transmission; we *felt* different on the other side.
We discuss what it means to belong, to live in true relationship to life, to embrace the paradox of interconnectedness and differentiation. To listen, deeply, to things unknowable. Dive on in, loves!
Diana -
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Retreat information - https://www.theworkwithtom.com/9-16-march-brazil.html
Eva's instagram: @iamevaliao
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Kyley's Instagram: @kyleycaldwell
Kyley's free mini-course
Eva: [00:00:00] Hello, Diana. Welcome to Hello Universe. We are so
Diana: excited to have you here. Hi, Kylie. Hi, Eva. It's great to be here.
Eva: So we want to know what's something that life is teaching you at this moment.
Diana: So this was a really interesting question for me to think about because over the years it's become important for me to, um, Access, more specificity, and nuance. And [00:01:00] so, you know, for me, I feel less of an immediate relationship with the concept of life, and instead more of a relationship with the beings that I share life with, if that makes sense.
And so, um, you know, one of the interesting things that I've held for a few years now is a definition of healing that is increasing the ability to be in relationship. And so for me, I think one of the things that I'm really exploring and getting curious about is, um, how have these, you know, years spent in exploration of, uh, self and being and world and cosmos, like, how is that actually showing up in my relationships?
So, there's an increased curiosity as well as an increased, um, [00:02:00] expansion into what my relationships teach me and how I contribute to those relationships in turn.
Kyley: I had to write it down. Healing is increasing the ability to be in relationship.
Eva: Same. Same. This is actually blowing my mind a little bit.
Kyley: I felt my body like exhale. You know, in, in, in hearing that. So I kind of want to just ask you to elaborate on such a
Diana: beautiful ethos.
Yeah. So this is something that came to me. This was the, the specific phrasing, the specific depth defining of it, um, came to me when I was on a little bit of an accidental desert retreat. I was spending a few months, um, out east of Joshua tree and. Um, doing some really deep work while I was out there and that's, I don't know, [00:03:00] uh, there's, there's something about defining healing as wholeness, right?
Or defining healing as returning to a state of being prior to the injury, the harm, the harm state or whatever. And, um, depending on your lived experiences. There is no before. There is just entering into contexts and situations, um, you know, family situations, social situations, um, economic situations that are not conducive.
To becoming one's whole self and humans are social creatures, humans are deeply social creatures. We need each other. We cannot, uh, we cannot exist with any level of happiness without each other. Right. And beyond that, um, you know, I think a lot about, [00:04:00] uh, ecological issues. I think a lot about economic issues and social issues.
Um, and the insufficiencies that I feel like exist, at least in the culture that I grew up in. I grew up in the Midwest of the so called United States of America, um, Nebraska and Missouri primarily. And there's. Such disconnection. And when people are born into disconnection, healing is not returning to like who you were when you were three, because if you were, when you were three, you were surrounded by disconnection.
There is no going back, but there is moving towards and there is moving towards connection and. In my imaginary, I'm writing and how I see things, um, I would say most, if not all of those significant issues that we [00:05:00] are facing today, uh, are rooted in disconnection are rooted in an inability to relate with whether that's relationship with other humans, relationship with ourselves, relationship with our immediate, uh, like, you know, Bio regions, um, relationships with people who come from different places, relationships with the other than human people who share these places with us, plant, animal, and otherwise.
If there were a connection, if there were relationship, there would be health. So healing is moving towards the ability to be in relationship with which. That includes removing a lot of, uh, a lot of blockages of all different kinds. But it also means creating avenues of connection that might not have existed for you previously.
Um, and I think it's a lot easier to destroy stuff than it is to make stuff, right? It's a lot easier to be [00:06:00] like, I'm, you know, removing as much as I can the impacts of my childhood trauma or whatever. But if that's not balanced by creating what you wish to be there instead. You know, you're putting, you're maybe making yourself into a little bit of an island when there are, you know, boating channels or isthmuses or peninsulas or whatever that you could make as well.
Kyley: Oh my God. I'm bursting. Sorry, Eva. I'm not even
Eva: a
Kyley: positive. I I just, I'm so in love with everything you're saying. It's bringing some resonance to one of the, one of the reasons sometimes I have a, I do a lot of work personally and with clients around, like, for example, childhood trauma. I mean, I think any of us in this space do, but I always have a really frustrating relationship to when people talk about like reconnect to your inner child, right?
Because as with this idea [00:07:00] of her being always this like joyful, she knew how to play. Cause I'm like. She did not. Did she? She did not. Mine?
Diana: Was she allowed to?
Kyley: She was very good at reading and she was very good at planning, right? Like we're almost 40 and we're starting to figure out how to play. Um, uh, so that's one thing is, is I always love a good reminder that there is no return.
It's always like, it's always an invitation to build something new. Um, and the other thing that I want to speak to is, um, this is reminding me very much of a conversation I had with an incredibly dear and brilliant friend of mine. She's an activist and a, and a, and a researcher and an artist and, um, and she's not particularly spiritual.
And we were having this really beautiful conversation. I'm looking at my couch because that's where we had it about, um, her disappointment in the way so many spiritual conversations are about the eye writer about this, like, kind of obsessive, um, [00:08:00] to, to the self in a way that she sees as really, um, harmful because to your point, you Um, there's nothing without community, right?
And there's no future without us figuring out how to build something together. And we just had this really beautiful conversation that I have been thinking about, you know, for six weeks now, um, and, um, because on some level I personally think about how much the deeper I return to myself, the better I am in community, right?
Um, and also. I think there is a real absence of conversation in spiritual circles about the centering of, of what you are speaking, which is relationship and community. And I think a follow up question that I have is, um, I think one of the tensions for a lot of us is how to be in community without being self sacrificing.
Because I, [00:09:00] and, and I think there's this model that's like of extraction, right, where it's like capitalism is extracting and, you know, toxic people are extracting, but then we do this thing where we make ourselves extracted from. And so I'm wondering if you can, um, speak to how to engage with this relational community oriented notion of healing and how we specifically engage with that without being self
Diana: sacrificing.
Self sacrificing. So it's just, my brain is also going, yeah, I know. So you can pick, I gave you like
Kyley: seven different things. So you could pick any one of them that's fun and interesting.
Diana: Um, first I want to point out the fact that we don't have to figure out how to build things with each other. Cause we're always already doing it.
Like, even just thinking about the ways that our bodies are made of a combination of all of the ancestral DNA that has ever contributed to the evolution of, you know, our species, but then also [00:10:00] the direct evolutions of our lineages. And then, you know, like the other day I ate a really delicious pear and that pear is now one of my ancestors because it's some portion of its constituents are literally now my physical form.
Um, So we are
Kyley: always, we asked my grandma, sorry, go ahead. Interrupting you like a real rude jerk. But, um, my grandmother, uh, is obsessed with pears, and whenever I'm cutting pears, she like pops in to be like, Mm-Hmm. Hi. I love these. Give bigger. I love peas, love pea. So like, pears and ancestry have actually like a very specific Mm-hmm.
Place in my
Diana: heart. So yeah, shout out n. This is but this is one of the important things that I think is part of this relational orientation for me. It's not just relationships with other humans. It's not just community with other humans. Like, you know, what is it like some 60 percent of our body mass is like bacteria that aren't.
Us, but are very necessary for us to operate. Like all of us are cosmoses from that perspective. [00:11:00] Um, you know, like every single thing I've ever eaten is one of my ancestors on some level, every single song I've heard, every single book I've read, every single beautiful sunset that I have seen, um, every single fly that I have ushered out the front door, um, every single bumblebee that I have rescued from a sidewalk, like all of these have affected who I am on some level.
And so all of them are. of my community. And I think whenever we're trying to define community or like, whenever we're trying to talk about community, it's important to have a definition of what that means. Like, what are we trying to build? What do we need to build? And it's like, well, what has, what already exists?
What has already been built? Who are you already in relationship with? Whether or not you have ever intentionally engaged that relationship. I didn't choose. My next door neighbor, but she's part of my immediate physical community. I wouldn't say that she's part of my community from a level of shared values because we've never had a conversation about shared values, but she's my neighbor [00:12:00] in the same way that the, you know, the spiders who make their home in my hedge.
are my neighbors and are part of my community. Um, so I think to understand that you are already part of community, you are already participating in and being participated with, that can really help to turn down the volume on the fear that you will lose yourself in community. And the fear of losing yourself in community is the same as the fear of losing yourself in a one on one relationship.
If you know how to maintain a sense of your center when you're in a romantic relationship, a friendship, a parenthood ship, a boss ship, a co workership, then you already know how to remain yourself in larger community.
Eva: Dana, I feel like you are literally I mean, I, this is a real time moment of like, I think you are changing something, an understanding [00:13:00] of something for me that it's going to just last and last and last, because, you know, there's a lot of dialogue out there about how spiritual work we've, we've had this conversation on the podcast before the thing about spirituality or like, you know, spiritual healing is that it, uh, it can be overly self focused so much that we forget, you know, that it's actually about the all.
And the community and not to be done in isolation, not to be like the monk in a cave where you're just doing your own thing. And you're actually more disconnected. Even
Diana: the monk in a cave though is not actually isolated because the monk in a cave is in a cave. And if we can understand, if we can alter our perception of personhood and community to be inclusive of other than human beings, we are never alone.
We are never doing any of this alone. And one of the greatest lies I would say of supremacy culture is that you do anything. Alone.[00:14:00]
Eva: I, I really, I'm going to like, I need like a long pause. I need this to like,
like this is not good podcast material because I need this to like process and sink into my body and absorb because this,
Diana: this takes time. I mean, I will just say like my, I've had several significant spiritual experiences throughout my life. Um, there was one that really knocked my socks off. Um, Transcribed I was praying at my altar, um, as you do.
Prayer is a huge part of my practice. Um, and, um, I could feel all of my people, like all of my ancestors, like, in the room with me in a way that I'd never felt before. And the, it was, um, you know, almost like an echo chamber, um, like, I don't [00:15:00] know, surround sound IMAX experience of you've never been alone, even in those moments when you thought that you were the only speck of dirt.
in the entire universe. You've never actually been alone. And, you know, I don't remember that all the time. Right. It's something I'm training into remembering all the time, but that's that holding that inescapable withness is, I think one of the most cherished shifts in my worldview that I've experienced.
And also one of the things that I. I think it's very important to assist others in finding. There are things that you do when you think it's only you versus the world that would be unthinkable if you understood that it was [00:16:00] never only you. Yeah,
Eva: I think the world would be perceived. I mean, we just change everything.
The world is not as much of a threat, which is, I think, why we go around feeling, you know, reacting the way that we do. But what I love about all of this is like this, this just more deeply confirms something that I often intellectually understand. And in my more quiet moments, it's like, Oh, yeah, physically understand in my body, this understanding of like, there is no separation, like non duality there is no separation.
And so, therefore I think for me, when you speak to this, what I start to think about is going back to this idea of healing. Basically what happened when you were talking is like, I saw my family, like I saw my, like, I saw like the acute version of where this happens. It's like, okay, I have seen this happen in my own life when I have healed something within me, my immediate, and I think about my family [00:17:00] mostly because that's where a lot of like the friction can happen.
And I'm like, okay, that's so true. Like things have changed with my parents. And then, yeah. And I like moved outward and I'm like, yes, being more available for all of life. So like, not having to like draw all these, build all these walls and have all these boundaries all the time, but actually like, I can be available for this, for this confrontation, for this discomfort with this person who disagrees with me, blah, blah, blah.
And then it like moved out. And then I saw nature and then I saw Adams and I was like, and I was like, it's all it's it's, it's, I can be available. Everything, which is not separate also for me, as you speak to being, if I were a monk in a cave, none of it's, none of it's separate. It's, it's, and so therefore, you know, this idea, the overused, but also very true, uh, statement of like, you know, we are actually all one, which I do believe is like, Uh, yeah, just talking [00:18:00] about like, in terms of like contextualizing my healing experience.
It's not just so that I can find inner peace, or it is that I can find inner peace, but the I is not separate from the rock in the cave.
Diana: Right. I mean, and like, as you're speaking, there's also something about, um, you know, being all one, does it mean we're all the same? So to go back to like the body metaphor, I don't want the cells in the, in my patella of my kneecap to try to do the things that my heart muscles do.
Like that would be the wrong task, right? I would have a pulsing in my knee and that's a bad sign, right? You know, so even within, uh, levels of unity, there, there are levels of differentiation. And I think differentiation is different than separation. And I think this is one of those areas where there's a lot more, um, juicy exploration available of being able to be like, cool, I'm Diana, you're Eva, you're Kylie, like All of us are one man.
And also like, [00:19:00] none of us are the same. We have all differentiated. We, and as differentiated beings, we also all have very different, but also harmonious, uh, roles within the like ecological and spiritual ecosystems that we wander through. Right. So. You know, it's like all of us here. It's like, we're three cells like buddying up to like, have a collaborative yada, yada, blah, blah, blah, to nourish people in their minds and hearts and souls.
And then we're going to go our separate ways and have different conversations with people that we have differentiatedly. I mean, when
Eva: that's just, I mean, you know, we're all about paradox here and that's just what the paradox is. It's, it's, I mean, it's that beautiful balance of how we're all one man, as you say, but also like completely different, but that's anyway, a necessity and, and the beauty of it.
Diana: Yeah.
Kyley: Yeah. This is bringing me to something that happened earlier today. You know, I feel like this probably happens to both of you where some part of your brain is [00:20:00] like, You know, chopping up an onion and some other part of your brain is like, you know, just like, you know, some wise thing drops in by surprise, right?
Cause you're just distracted enough to be open to it. And I don't even fully remember the context, but it was this appreciation for how efficient everything is when we don't muddle with it to your point of, um, differentiation versus separation. Right. And it was this, this, this. It was like a, some part of me was watching cyclicality and the way that like death nourishes life.
Um, and how, and how things move, how things move effortlessly in all of these different ecosystems until we slot in separation, right. Until we try to like,
Diana: um, Demarcate or compartmentalize.
Kyley: Yes, Thank you. I was doing hand motions. Diana read the hand motions.
Um, [00:21:00] and, um, yeah, and I'm just having this feeling of, um, basically the efficiency of all of us being not the same, right. One but not the same. Right. Because there's a kind of. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. In a way that we can actually understand, but there's some specific efficiency to each one of our individual magic that weaves together.
That's also not the same. Um, I'm also, I'm also in this kind of trippy way appreciating that the universe was talking to me about our podcast two hours ago.
Diana: Okay. Can I ask a question? All
Eva: right. Here we go. So, um, would you, so understanding this, I'm curious how this influences how you move through the world. This, this. This, um, never being aloneness, you know, meaning like, again, even I keep going back to this, [00:22:00] the example of the monk in the cave and you being like, but also in there, you're not alone.
Like there's your anyway. And I just love that so much. So yeah. Would you mind speaking to
Diana: that a little bit more? Yeah. Um, so this is, you know, another kind of cosmology and worldview thing, right? So. For example, people are like, Oh, how do I contact my ancestors? They're literally in your bones, right? Like their DNA is your DNA.
So they're there all the time. Um, and one way that shows up for me is like, uh, for some reason this happens the most when I'm in the car. Um, but in the car, I'll like have full conversations with my ancestors, right? Like sitting in LA traffic, just like blah, blah, blah, blah. Right. Um, you know, I think. One huge way this affects, um, affects things is how, um, how do I put this?
Um, you know, to consider that the earth herself is a being who was always with us and always with all of us who live on earth. Right. [00:23:00] And so the importance of just being like, I am held all the time. Like I'm not flying off into space. Like Earth loves me so much that her gravity is keeping me close to her.
And that's something that's accessible at every single moment, anywhere, all the time, even in a plane, right? Like, you know, there's, there's still like the, the, the flight of the plane is dependent on the balance of gravity with Earth below. Um, so that's, that's one expression. Um, you know, another expression.
So like, I call myself a relational astrologer and. Um, part of my practice is, um, consistently perceiving the planets and their expressions just throughout the day, right? Throughout my life. And so to be able to, you know, say, chop an onion like Kylie was talking about and be like, Oh yeah, onions, Mars, knives, Mars, I'm hanging out with Mars while I chop this onion and cry about it.
You know, um, [00:24:00] like that, that kind of thing of just being like, there's expressions and presence of, um, these. incredible spiritual entities around us at all, at all times, right? All the time. Um, yeah, I, I think there's also something to, like, I've always, like, I'm an only child. So playing by myself is like NBD, right?
I don't really, I do get the experience of certain kinds of loneliness, but it like takes a lot for me to get there. Um, but even within that, I'm just like, okay, am I, what is it that I'm actually craving? Like, I feel like having an understanding that I'm never alone. prompts me very quickly to more clearly identify what I feel like is missing because it's not presence because presence is always present.
If presence is always present, then loneliness might actually be a desire to have, I don't [00:25:00] know, a long conversation with a friend. It might be, um, you know, mammalian co regulation with a fellow human being. Um, it might be, um, holding hands. Right. Something as sweet and simple as I just want to hold hands,
but it's not just about, Oh, I'm all alone in the universe. It's like, honey, we've been over this. You're not still
Eva: listeners. If you hear long pauses, it's just processing it all in. Okay.
Diana: Oh,
Eva: go ahead. Love. I, I just, I think this framework though, I mean, is just really, I'm kind of going back into it. Something we were speaking to previously, but, but what this framework is also [00:26:00] helping me see is, what am I trying to say here?
I might need to take a long pause. Something about how, um, moving through the world through this framework, but understanding that healing is being able to be, how did you put it? In relation to our inability to be in relationship, um, I guess it's just, it also is pointing to me and this is not new, but.
All the ways in which, uh, I mean, I'm saying something so trite, but just like how much healing, how much more healing there can be done because what's happened in terms of like all the separation that I think, you know, basically the harm that's to Mother Earth and to Pachimama and harm against, you know, animals and each and each other and humans.
And it's like, oh, that's happening because we are still really. in [00:27:00] some ways struggling with our ability to be in relationship with one another. Anyway, this is not, this is not, this is not new, but I don't know. I feel like I'm trying to, I think it's my brain is still catching up with some of what you're saying.
And so it's coming in slow, but you have anything to add to that?
Diana: Well, I just want
Kyley: to like affirm your, uh, wooziness because I can feel how much my Like I can feel how much what you are actually speaking transmission because my body is like having responses. And there was actually one brief moment where I had like completely lost the thread of conversation because my body was just so like, yes,
Diana: coming
Kyley: online. Um, uh, which, which happens when, um, which is like a really beautiful thing that happens when someone's Frequency and words is, is waking something up for me. Um, so just to validate, um, I think both. The embodiment and scope of what you're sharing [00:28:00] Diana. Um, and also I think maybe why you feel like wobbly on, on words.
Eva: Well, yeah, it's like, I'm trying to intellectualize something right now that my body's just like, just.
Diana: Yeah. I mean, it's like what you're saying too, it's, it's, um, like to increase ability to be in relationship with is not the same as fixing. What's already happened necessarily, it's creating avenues of repair, but it's not the same as like, okay, in order to be in relationship first, I have to make amends with, you know, there's no, this isn't, you don't have to go to confession before you get.
Um, communion with something like this, you get communion and it's communion that actually allows you to do reparations work, right? So even just thinking about, um, you know, I have been living here in this neighborhood [00:29:00] for, uh, like two. Almost three years now, um, which is the longest I've lived in a single neighborhood conse, like just in consecutive time since I became an adult.
Um, like I've moved a lot in my adult life. And so living in this neighborhood for this long and going for lots of walks in this neighborhood, I'm moved to this neighborhood in LA County specifically because it's very walk walkable and like there's lots of good yards and like excellent plants. And, you know, all that kind of good stuff.
I'm from
Eva: California and there's some, some, some neighborhoods where it's just artwork to walk around and look at the foliage.
Diana: Yeah. Yeah, exactly. And there are some neighborhoods where it's like, uh, did I just find like the ninth circle of hell? This is terrible. Please get me away from the highway. Um, this one is not a ninth circle of hell, but, um, you know, just like being here for almost three years now, it'll be three years in April.
You know, I have a different [00:30:00] relationship with the plants. I have relationships with my neighbors and their dogs, especially their dogs. Love me. Um, dog magnet, my nickname, Diana dogmatic magnet Harper. Um, but, um, you know, also just like relationship with the mountains. Like I see the mountains from where I am and they are so beautiful and having seen them through multiple seasons.
And, you know, like last winter we got snow on them. I like broke my toe and it got snow on the mountains. And so I like hobbled outside on my broken toe just to see the snow on the mountains, you know, and, um, I would have to be here for much longer to really do deep reparation work with the spirits of place here.
Three years isn't enough time to do the repair work, but it is enough time to come into friendly [00:31:00] neighborliness. With, you know, all of the beautiful coast live oaks and the silly little palm trees and, you know, the lemon trees and the rosemary bushes and the, you know, California buckwheat and the black sage and the white sage and the California poppies.
And, you know, there's so many olives. There's so many beautiful olive trees here too. Right. Um, and. I can, I can get to know them. I can say hi to the tobacco and the dhatra and, um, you know, the glorious fiery hedge of nasturtium that a neighbor has planted. Like I can, I can say hi to them over time. And if I were blessed enough to, uh, buy a house here, then maybe I could really root in and do some additional layers of that repair work.
But you don't have to start [00:32:00] With fixing, especially when what needs fixing is older and bigger than you.
Kyley: As you're having, as you're saying all this, I'm thinking, so I, where I live, there's a ton of granite and my backyard in particular is exceptional with the granite. Like there's this giant boulder that's so high that my, the neighbor that abuts me is like literally like.
Um, like, it's like we're down in this little, this little bubble where it's like a fortress wall of granite. My son climbs it in the summer and reads books up there. Um, and that granite has shown up for me many times. And there was actually one point where a dear friend of mine was like, Yeah. These rocks knew what you were going to move through, lived in this house.
Like these rocks have like, they've been cradling you since before you even got here. Ooh, I kind of have tears in my eyes as I'm saying this. And as you're speaking to this about like [00:33:00] being in relationship and also like the not needing to fix, I can feel, I can feel the granite in particular being like, yeah.
It's almost like, it's almost like kind of being made fun of a little bit. That's like, yeah, we need, like, we need to help you more than you need to help us. I don't know what you think the order of things is, what is more
Diana: human. And this actually reminds me of, um, there's, there are a couple of different origin stories that are along these lines, but I know that it is, um, Oh man, I am spacing so hard.
Robin Wall Kimmerer talks about it in Braiding Sweetgrass. Um, the Pottawatomie creation story, which, you know, includes like the stone peoples came first and then, you know, everyone else is made [00:34:00] or the stone people, the water people, the plant people, all of these other animal people. And then the human people are the little brothers of creation.
We're the youngest siblings and everyone who came before us is committed to helping us become what we need to be.
And, you know, as you were speaking, Kylie, I was also being reminded, like one of my favorite prayers, it's the simplest one, it's thank you. Like thank you said with sincerity, like genuine gratitude and appreciation is so intensely medicinal. It's so intensely connective, right? Even in something as simple as like sending an email that's late.
Thank you for your patience. Thank you for your understanding. [00:35:00] Like, when you tell someone thank you, when you start a conversation with thank you, you are calling up in that other person the part of them that understands they deserve to be appreciated. Same thing with your granite just to go out there and be like, yo bro. Thanks.
Kyley: Right? I can feel my granite being like we know
Diana: It's reminding me so one of the most influential films on me I've been my favorite Film since I was like four, um, and it's the point never heard of it, which it's, it's based on a concept album that Harry Nilsson put together when he was super high on acid. Um, and I love it already. Yeah. Right. Um, this, uh, I, I had an ex once tell me that it explains me 95%.
This single animated children's film. Um, [00:36:00] and the version that I like, there's two versions. I don't remember what the other one is, but the one that I prefer is the one that's narrated by Ringo Starr. You can watch it for free on YouTube, but you can also acquire like the DVD or whatever. Um, it's so good.
But one of my favorite characters from the point is the rock man. And he's a man made out of rocks and there's like a jazzy background. And he's just like, cool, man, be cool. You just gotta be cool. He's, he's incredible. But you know, it's also like translates pretty strongly to how I interact with, especially rocks that are in place.
They're like, You have the lifespan of a gnat. Why are you worrying?
Kyley: Mm hmm.
Eva: Yeah. Like, you can chill. That is always the message that I am getting
Diana: in nature. It's like, please slow down. Why are you, where are you going? On those like, you know, rocket
Eva: fuel shoes of yours. Like, every, it's not. It's like, it's like, have you
Diana: considered laughing at yourself?
Eva: Exactly. Hilarious. I'm always [00:37:00] laughing. That's where I go to laugh. Nature. I'm just like, I just start cackling. Cause I'm like, Oh, the absurdity of how I thought everything's so big when it's actually
Kyley: teeny,
Diana: tiny, it's all so teeny, tiny. I mean, even as swirling around in space on this like hunk of space rock that we're on, I'm always reminded of Horton.
Here's a who. And the little dust moat that has Whoville on it. I'm just like, we're on a dust moat and like, maybe we're on some elephants, you know, eyelash right now. Oh my gosh. I think
Kyley: about that. You know, that final scene in Men in Black where like the galaxy zooms out and it's like the marbles that they're like two aliens are playing.
I think about that all the time because I, my version of it is that I will think I pay no attention to the cells inside my body. I am essentially a cell inside, like, or like the, not even this, like the, like the teeny tiny parts. Oh, inside of the
Diana: body. Like barely even a mitochondria. It's like mitochondria are factories.
Right. Like are they unionized? Okay. Oh,
Kyley: yes. Oh, I have, um, [00:38:00] something interesting is showing up for me in this conversation. So I am, as I mentioned, having like very somatic. response and all these really beautiful and soft and delicious ways. And also I keep having these waves of anger showing up, not at our conversation, but it's, we were in an angry spell over here.
So it's like in keeping, but it's really interesting watching. That it just feels like there's this, like, like, um,
Diana: Because our baseline connection has been stolen from us and it's fucked up. Like how we live as humans in our climate controlled squared 90 degree angle boxes separate. From the ecologies that surround us separate from the interweavings and interreliances that surround us.
And then when we, you layer on, um, you know, capitalism's additional layer of like, we have to work for money to live instead of like building ecological housing [00:39:00] alongside the natural spaces that exist here. It's like, how much of human history do we not know about? Because they built things with biodegradable materials.
Right. And here we are literally pulling the blood of earth out of her in order to like, do what have 1 million Stanley cups.
Kyley: Yeah. Stanley
Diana: cups are no, are not even close to a fair exchange to the interweaving that is our birthright as animals on planet earth.
Kyley: I forgot for a minute about this whole obsession with the, like, Stanley Cup.
So I thought you were talking about hockey for a second. Oh, also that, but sure. For anyone who doesn't know, there was like a collection of American humans who are obsessed with this particular kind of, like, water cup. And they're like, Hackling each other and target over it. My husband is like, it's like his hyperfication of the
Diana: moment.
Extremely [00:40:00] fascinating. It's such a great example of conspicuous consumption, especially because ostensibly it's a great reusable cup. You have it instead of throwing out, you know, a dozen plastic cups every week. You have one Stanley cup. But then there are people who have 50 Stanley Cups because they want to have one in a color that will match all of their outfits.
And then we are getting really like Hunger Games the capital about it.
Kyley: I am so in love with what you just said. And I'm so glad I spoke to my anger because one of the things I am constantly reminded of, and I don't know if this happens, I'm curious if this happens to you too as well, where Wisdom drops in and, and it's always like, it's never what you think it is, is a phrase that I hear I'm reminded of often.
Right. I will think that I'm tending to a certain kind of wound or I'm seeking a certain kind of resolution or I'm, I'm, and then when the wisdom actually comes in, it's like, you were, that's cute that you were looking here. It was over, you know? And so when [00:41:00] you just now spoke to, um, you know, our connection has been stolen from us.
I could feel that anger, like, It's like, it was like this, this like kind of howling feeling of like, we don't even know what we're supposed to howl about. And I could feel this kind of like settled up experience like, Oh yes, that you gave us voice. So, um, fucking thank you. We'll report back. Yeah.
Eva: Well, so I have a follow up question about that.
And I want to say what's so interesting for me is that I'm actually feeling so. So emotional, like very sad, very, very, like, it's a, I can feel like a heartbreak happening. And I have wanted to even earlier, like I just felt tears in my eyes and I didn't understand really like why. And so, and. Again, I'm just at a loss for words for this whole podcast.
I'm doing so much feeling, but I will try and formulate a question, which is that, [00:42:00] um,
this is such a general question, but what are your thoughts on what we can do about this?
Diana: What we can do about it? I mean, can I
Kyley: ask a second question so you can answer you? We do this sometimes. You can have a two for one. Yeah. Yeah. Um, does this happen to you often where you talk and everyone just. Like falls apart in emotions or even I just like really locked in tonight
Eva: because I feel like you were speaking to something in my body.
That's like, I'm sad. You're, you're, I'm sad. I'm grief. I'm there's grief, you know, and, and you're, and you're speaking to this, this inherent intuitive grief that's been there. And anyway, it's being tended to in a way in this conversation. And also now I'm kind of pissed and I'm like, okay,
Diana: so what now? Grief, grief is evidence of love.
Grief is evidence of loss. Even if you don't know what you lost, the fact that it's there means there's something that's been lost. Um, anger is evidence of something worth protecting, which is [00:43:00] also evidence of love. Right. And so when it, when we're talking about belonging here on earth and with the others who share this planet with us and with the others who might not be technically on earth, but are invested in earth, like the stars and planets who without whom there's so much meaning, we wouldn't be discernible.
We wouldn't be able to discern. Right. Like, um, You know, what we're talking about, like, no, actually, we should feel like we belong here. We should feel differentiated, not separated. Like, that is, like, such a deep and profound Wound, right? Separation as a wound is not a default to human experience in my opinion.
Right. Um, differentiation. Yes. Separation separation, as in there is no connection. [00:44:00] Differentiation. You still have connection. Separation is like, how do I ever connect again? There can be a finality to the sensation of separation. Right. And. Um, you know, a lot of this for me is, I've, this is stuff that I have felt for my entire life.
Right? Like trying to like seeing how I've been trying to, how do I put this? Seeing the ways I've been trained into being human and then like actually feeling how I feel in my own self and where I feel like myself and why I don't feel like myself. I'm like, ah, the ways that we're trained to be human is not how to be human.
Right. Right. The ways we're trained to be human are how we continue to participate in a system that divorces us from our humanness and our humanity. And over the years, as I've read and talked [00:45:00] more, um, especially when I've been in connection with Indigenous teachers like, um, Paddy Crowick or Jack Forbes or, um, Uh, Robin Wall Kimmerer, or, um, Four Arrows, who is a contributor to a book called, um, Restoring the Kinship Worldview that I just started reading recently.
Um, you know, what I've come to under and then, you know, also being in deep relationship with my own ancestors, which is, like, all of us are supposed to be Indigenous. Like, all of us have Indigenous ancestry. It might not be Indigenous from the perspective of, like, current extant Indigenous peoples and their cultures, um, and, you know, their, um, needs for sovereignty, their needs for respect.
Right? But to be removed from Indigeneity is the fundamental wound. That in my opinion that brings us [00:46:00] into what we're experiencing now, right? Like, so, um, actually one book series that deeply contributed to, like, my physical sense of this is actually, uh, historical fiction by Amanda Scott. It's the Boudicca series.
It's a four book series. Um, uh, fictionalizing, like telling through historical fiction story, the, um, Roman conquest of what gets eventually called Britannia. Um, and the story follows some of the, um, pre Roman, like Celtic tribes in Britannia, as well as, um, there's one character who ends up kidnapped and then joins the Roman army.
Um, and that's extraordinarily fascinating. It's brutal. But it really highlighted for me the, um, you know, so it's like I am multiracial [00:47:00] and my, um, European family left Europe to escape the wars of the Kaiser. And even prior to that, they had endured Christianization, um, which no shade on Christ and Christ's teachings, um, but more so the wielding of, um, supposedly religious doctrine to Sever people from themselves and from the land, um, you know, prior to Christianization demons didn't exist in Europe because demons are actually local spirits who were categorized as demons as other than Christian as part of the conquest process.
Um. You know, but to like really feel into like that immense wounding of oppression, violent oppression and extraction and, [00:48:00] um, severance from ancient life ways alongside the specificities of land and season and place, um, that, that's separation.
Everything else, all of these other things that I think often get called separation are actually processes of differentiation. You're not separated from your mom at birth. You're differentiated from her. You don't separate from your family of origin when you're an angsty teenager. You're in your process of differentiation.
And depending on who you are and how intensely conditioned your circumstances are, that differentiation might be really extreme and functionally end up being a separation. But I would say all of the traumas that look like separations are [00:49:00] repetitions on a small scale of what has happened in terms of removing people from right relationship with this planet we live on.
Kyley: You are taking us to fucking church, my friend.
Diana: This is not where I thought this conversation was going to go, but here we are. Yes, this is
Kyley: one of my favorite things about our show is like, we just, we, we have the conversation. This is probably why we had to reschedule. We had the conversation we need to have.
Um. When you spoke to, um, uh, Christianization, that howling rage, which had kind of settled, like reared its head back up like that, which is really interesting. I have, I am, it's funny, I recently did one of those like DNA, or actually I did a while ago, but DNA, uh, ancestry and it's like, no, no, you are actually a hundred percent Irish.
Yeah. Which just makes me laugh how much everyone [00:50:00] gets the answers and it's like, I'm all the, it's like, no bitch. You are. I
Diana: am. Okay. obsessed with Ireland. Um, I went there for the first time last September and I have never in my life felt as home as I felt the three days that I was in Dublin. I was only there for three days, right?
And we won't go into my own ancestral melange, but, um, like, um, Ireland is The only country populated by people we would call white that understands in like a living memory way, the consequences of colonization.
Kyley: Yeah. Yeah. My, um, my ancestors are very delighted by this conversation.
Diana: Yeah. Uh, hi grannies.
Hello. Yeah.
Kyley: Seriously. They're like, she's getting it, which is amazing. Um, and actually kind of related to [00:51:00] ancestry, but looking forward. Um, what you're speaking to is one of the, one of, um, Oh, I just felt my chest tighten. One of the like really big struggles for me in motherhood because, um, my kids are school age now.
Right. My son is seventh. He's in first grade. It's his first year in traditional school. My daughter's not, not, she'll be in kindergarten next year.
You know, every, so every, everything in our like wider culture is, is to your point, like separation, like teaching separation, right? And my husband and I are doing our best to, um, to create a different experience for our kids while being like fully flawed and screwing it up in a million ways. And, um, it, it like kind of breaks my heart how much there are no good options.
Right? When [00:52:00] it comes to things like you can, you can create your, you know, own little ecosystem as a family of four and you can get grandparents that are amazing and on board and, you know, and then they have to go out into the world, right? And if you are, if you are of the persuasion, like if it suits your temperament to homeschool, you have, that's one choice.
We tried it once. That was good. One year. Uh, it does not, you know, it was a great year. And also like, nah, that's not, that's not for us. Yeah. Um, and, and robbed my son of things that, that he needs. And also. And also I fully think that his teacher and his principal and the school is doing the very best job that they can and I.
And he's happy. He thinks school is great. The other day, he gave it a 7 out of 10, like, or like a 17 out of 20. That was it. He said on a scale of 10 to 20, it's a [00:53:00] 17. And I fucking hate it. You know, like it's like, like there's all these things that I am like my whole adult life and profession and like spiritual undertaking is unlearning these things and I am watching you.
Like, walk into them. And And I, yeah, and, and I, I don't have a, I don't have a clear, easy answer, right? Because we don't have the finances to go to a private school, and private schools are maybe really shitty in different ways, right? Mm-Hmm. . Mm-Hmm. . Um, I mean,
Eva: if you live, yeah. It's, it's, I mean you're talking about the education system, but really what you're talking about is we all have to be in the world.
Kyley: Yes. To be in the world. Mm-Hmm. . Yeah. Right? Mm-Hmm. . Right. And, um, and yeah. And the world that I want to exist doesn't exist. For my
Diana: kids. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, so when I think about this kind of stuff, I think about scale. And, you know, scale of power, scale of [00:54:00] influence, scale of access, scale of agency, all of this kind of stuff.
You know, it's like we live in a day and age where we have high scale access to how other people are doing it or how things could be done, which is great for our imaginations and terrible for our self critique about doing enough. Right. Um, you know, like also this is the kind of thing where. All right, so in order to, you know, not be arrested or have your children taken away by CPS or something, you have to make sure that your kids are in school.
Cool. Great. Amazing. What can you do? Like, you know, you're already doing what you can as an atomized family. What Um, what additional resourcing would help you connect with other families who are maybe on the same page? Right. Um, what, you know, it's like when I was a kid in the summers when I visited my grandparents, they would make sure I did like enriching classes, like going and digging lots of [00:55:00] fossils and learning how to spin pottery.
Um, but also like Girl Scout camp, which involved a lot of like being out in the woods, um, trying not to get eaten by ticks and mosquitoes and, you know, identifying poisonous things and you know, all of this kind of thing. It's like, and I know there are more and more like kind of unschooling blah, blah, blahs and stuff like that.
It's like, what can you, what can you do to mitigate? I don't love looking at screens all the time. And also my job is on the internet. Um, so what do I do? It's like, I have hobbies that aren't. On the internet. Yeah. Right. I go for walks. It's like not perfect. Like I would rather have like the cute little picture as cottage hut situation with like a gnarly rose garden that people like have to like somehow get through without scraping their legs.
And then we sit down and we look at star charts and we have big conversations about meaning and maybe I [00:56:00] actually get to do a little bit of body work to help them with their energetic digestion and like all that kind of stuff. That'd be great. I don't have that yet. I'm on the internet. And so I drink tea and as I drink tea, I'm like, this, this tea is warming me, but it's also warming my client.
I wear fuzzy slippers. I don't, I can't invite people to put on a pair of the fuzzy slippers that I have arrayed by my door and all of the sizes so that anybody who comes to my cottage can have fuzzy slippers, but I'm wearing the fuzzy slippers and that translates to the experience in some way. Like you do what you can with what you have.
And one of the most powerful things that we have available to us is refusing to fall into despair and powerlessness and finding even the tiniest thing that we can do. Right? Like cool. Other kids are all getting these stupid plastic things. Get your kids something cooler that's not made out of plastic.
[00:57:00] Translate, translate to your kid that He's the one that's being futuristic. He's the one that's like trend setting. Right. All of the, all of the coolest kids in Berlin, uh, capsule wardrobes.
Eva: Okay. Wait. So is this, is this, my question would be similar, which is that, you know, when you were talking about the wounding of being separated from our indigenous nature, I was like, like my whole body just went.
Again, it was like, yes, but also anger and sadness. And it was like, just, and there was a little, well, despair, but also hope and beauty, anyway, all these emotions. So my question is, I think in a similar vein, how does, how does one connect more with their
Diana: indigenous nature? So indigeneity, as I understand it as somebody who is not currently, [00:58:00] um, or who is not associated with.
You know, in an immediate sense, any people who currently get to be indigenous, um, in whatever ways are made available to them by the tyrannical governments that control such things. Right. Um, but indigeneity is about trying to be in relationship, right. Relationship with the land and the place and the people who live there with you.
Right. So you, it's not about like, I'm going to make myself indigenous to Brazil, right? It's like, well, where are you? Like, where, where are you in the world? Who grows there? Who's been growing there since before the city you are in was there? What are the stories of that place as they can be found, right?
And like, this gets really hard in super urban spaces and places, but urbanity is humans being ants, right? So [00:59:00] spirits of cities are just as important as spirits of mountains. Right? Like, say hello. Acknowledge. Um, I think one thing is also, you know, this has been important for me. Um, all of those feelings that come up about this stuff, you have to feel them. If you pretend they're not there, if you're just like, I'm going to put those in a box and now I'm just going to go like with my like bird guide and I'm going to learn all the native birds of my area, but I'm not going to feel any of my anger or sadness.
Like that's an option. This is fine. This is fine. This is totally fine. Like that's an option you can take, but it won't make you feel connected. Right? Like, go cry on the dirt in the park. Go cry in the bus shelter, right? Go cry on the [01:00:00] steps of City Hall on the train. Cry on the bus. Cry on the freeway. Cry at the beach.
Yeah. See that amazing sunset that for whatever reason looks so amazing from the grocery store but doesn't look like anything by the time you get home, right? Like stand in the grocery store parking lot and recognize that that beautiful sunset written by the sky is a poem to all of earth. Ugly parking lot at the grocery store included.
Kyley: You're making me think about a moment I had. The ocean is like, she's my, that's my spiritual home in so many ways. And you're making me think of this really profound experience I had once where the ocean offered to me, like, make your grief, An offering. Yes. And like, I don't, the ocean was like, I don't need you to come with roses and joy and this like kind of perfect sense of [01:01:00] being grateful.
Like give me your grief, your anger, give me all of you. Um, and I, I just, that phrase is coming back to me, like make your grief my offering.
Diana: And you know, the water that comes out of the tap into our tub is also the water of the ocean. So even if you can't get to the ocean, you can make your bath water salty.
All water is the same water. It all connects,
right? You might not have the, like, you know, sublime, awe inducing experience of, like, standing on rocky cliffs as the waves are crashing against them and you're having this, like, cathartic, screaming, crying match with the wind, right? Like, that's nice and romantic and lovely. And also the water that's in your tap is the water of the world.
That's so funny though,
Eva: because I just have to interrupt and say that that image right there [01:02:00] is exactly standing on a cliff. Were you there watching her?
Kyley: Word for word I said, even all these like pictures of me, like when I went like pitch black, I was like, literally before I went to bed. I like my, my. You know, ancestors and spirit crew were like, you're going to wake up at five o'clock in the morning and drive to the beach and you're going to go be fucking pissed.
And that's what I did. And it was, it was just like, it was such a, the weather was so bad that day that like the towns were flooded. And like, that was the day that they were like, this is the day you're going to the beach at five o'clock in the morning. Yeah. You
Diana: have to grieve with the waters because this is the thing, all of these water events that have been happening over the world, like.
Sure. We can call it climate change, but we can also, also call it the waters are angry because they've been disrespected for a really long time.
Kyley: And grief demands to be like our grief and our rage demands to be witnessed, right? That's your point of like, you won't feel connected if you don't feel [01:03:00] what exists.
Like, and the more we push away our own and the earth's, you know, grief and rage. It just, it just doubles back, right? Because it, it requires
Diana: the witnessing. The standard American funeral, it is considered, um, a faux pas to actually wail, but in ancient and in some extant grieving rituals, there are professionals whose job it is.
To wail and tear at their hair and to tear at their clothes in part because it lets everyone else who wants to do the same have permission to do so. Yeah, we have that in Taiwanese culture.
Eva: Do you? Mm hmm. Yeah. Um, okay, I need to speak to something. For selfish reasons, just simply just so that maybe you can give me some guidance.
So I am actually moving to Brazil
Diana: and oh, that's funny that I just randomly pulled this quote. Yes. Yes. Yes.
Eva: I know. [01:04:00] And I'm moving for anyway, all these reasons. I feel like I can feel that there's going to be some huge initiation that's going to come with nature. I can, I can just, I can like see the land and I can feel the land and I'm going for other reasons and I have a feeling that my relationship with nature is just going to take over the whole fucking thing.
Like it's just going to be, um, and I'm. And I am simultaneously, I'm not gonna have a mailing address. Okay. So when I found that out, I started to freak out because I was like, I get everything through mail. And so, um, what I'm speaking to is like my relationship. With stuff and the land and, and what I'm nervous about them being very honest is like, am I going to be able to have all my future comforts and all my stuff?
Like I'm going to go with like two suitcases and in my brain, I'm like, okay, like, what are the [01:05:00] things that I'm going to, I can, it's, it's, it's already, I'm confronting my relationship with stuff. And, and I think there's judgment about that. And there's a lot of shame around that. And I'm, and I want to know how do I balance.
Being, and I think there's going to be a reckoning of areas where I've seen I've been the perpetrator and I, and I think that's actually incredibly healing, like that's, I'm not afraid of that, but I want to be able to do that without letting shame be the main story, because as we know, shame is, is, is, is not actually helpful.
It's just going to keep me stuck in a place where I'm not actually going to connect more
Diana: so. Any thoughts on that? Yeah, so there are a couple of things. One, when it comes to the relationship with the land, you didn't ask about this, but I could hear that there was a question in there. I'm like,
Eva: I'm living in the jungle.
I will be in
Diana: the jungle off grid. Respect, respect, respect, respect, respect. Which [01:06:00] includes understanding that there are intelligences in that place that you cannot understand. Right? Like one of the other perils of this day and age is this idea that humans are top of the heap when it comes to intelligence.
That's so cute. It's not true. Well, you know what? I'm actually
Eva: really like when you said that I was like, Oh, thank fucking God. Because my, you know, my default is I want to fucking understand everything because it gives me a sense of control. But the truth is usually when I get there, I'm like, Oh, I don't have to understand.
I get to the place where I don't have to understand.
Diana: It is there. This isn't just about not have to like literally impossible. Yeah. And, but that, to me,
Eva: that feels liberating
Diana: because I'm like, yeah, there, it means you get to be as a tiny child instead of as the one who knows, right? Like relinquishing the one who knows it's like the most, it's like taking off a too small bra and an itchy sweater at the same time.
I love being [01:07:00] the one
Eva: who doesn't
Diana: know. It is. Yeah. It's so freeing. So, uh, respect. Capital R E S P E C T. When
Kyley: you're talking about not being the one who knows, I immediately seemingly randomly started to get anxious about my children and then my jaw hurt. So cool. That was
Diana: interesting data. Yeah. I mean, the more your kids get to see you as human, when they are the less angry they will be when they are teenagers.
It, it had the
Kyley: response and I wanted to, I'm more interested in Eva's story, so I don't want to go too far. But, um, it's, it's less that like, I don't want my kids to see me. It's more like, if I am not the one who knows who will shepherd them and keep them safe, right? It's one thing for me to surrender to the insane whims of the universe, but I have to like, then like, package it all back They will.
Diana: You, you teach them how to trust themselves. Yeah.
Kyley: I, I'm, I'm, I'm mostly I'm in the, I'm in the moment of like, in those moments you, you watch, you watch a [01:08:00] programming that you didn't know was there. Mm. Mm. Yeah. That's what's happening right now.
Diana: Yum. Yum. Okay. Okay. Respect. Respect the land. Respect the place.
Don't, don't come in with the white man. I know, I know this already. I understand this already, which you're not going to do, but just, you know, um, Oh, I mean, I, I. Okay.
Eva: Anyway, that's, that's an interesting statement because sure, there's many ways I will not. And then there'll be ways that I, that I do that I am not yet conscientious of and all of that will be valuable.
Diana: Yeah. Yeah, absolutely. Um, and then when it comes to stuff we hear in, uh, the quote unquote developed world, all of us live like royalty. And so whenever we, uh, live in circumstances where we don't. We're not straight up royalty. Um, we actually get to connect with the majority of our ancestors who are not.
royalty. Um, [01:09:00] and you know, one of the words that you brought up is shame. And I recently there's this person, Ashley Stinson, who does a form of energy work. That's extremely, um, anatomical. Like she works a lot with bones, um, and stuff like that. And so we were having a conversation on threads about shame and she described shame.
Energetically. Um, like the sensation is like an oil slick, like shame itself is not an emotion. It's like a greasy barrier to what the actual emotion is. Right. And, um, you know, it's like, whatever you were on a podcast about spirituality. And I like, you know, I was listening to an episode earlier today, the one with Amma, um, you know, it's like, I know you've been through, uh, your own, um, Intense self analyses could be one way of putting it.
Um, so it's like, what does it mean to like have spiritual dawn soap with you? So that [01:10:00] whenever shame arises, you can break apart that greasy shellac and let yourself experience the emotion that's underneath. Right. It might be grief that you've gotten so much. That wasn't actually what you needed. It might be rage that, um, you know, your creature comforts have obfuscated the ways in which you need certain levels of toughness to exist alongside, um, less human developed space, right?
Um, it might be, um, I don't know, that sort of. innocent guilt of, I'm sorry, I didn't already know, right? Like that can very easily turn into the greasy slick of shame. I should have known, but really it's, I'm so sorry, I didn't already know. I'm so sorry that I'm having to learn this and [01:11:00] I'm an adult instead of a child.
Yeah. I mean,
Eva: I just, I'm, what I'm hearing you say is, I mean, and this isn't, it's the reminder of letting Shane being
Diana: a portal for exploration of something. It's an indicator that there's something that needs seeing, but is afraid of being seen that needs seeing, but is afraid it will be judged if it's seen.
Right. But all of it is lovable, even if not all of it is what you want to take with you. All of it can be seen with love. Yeah.
Eva: I will say, I think that's going to be. A huge part of the practice, which you speak to often here, but also I think more opportunity to practice that deep radical compassion.
There's no get, it's the, it's the thing that gets through the sleeky, the, the, the stuck oiliness that you were speaking to.
Kyley: Yeah. I'm also [01:12:00] thinking about how much shame carries the certainty that we can't belong. Right. And that when you're talking about, and in some ways I can like feel I can feel the like jungle of Brazil, like already like prepping you.
Right. That's what it feels like truly. Yeah, that's totally what it feels like to me too. And, um, and, and, and I.
I'm wondering how much part of the wisdom of the jungle is like this depth of belonging and how much shame is, you know, it presents as the voice that is terrified that we can't belong, but it's also, of course, the voice that's afraid to belong. Right. And, um. And so, yeah, I wonder if your kind of shame about some of these things that wants to show up if underneath the story is just this deep fear [01:13:00] about, can this, can, can this also be, can this depth of belonging also be for me?
Diana: Yeah. Mm hmm. Also, you know, as Kylie is speaking, I'm also thinking about, um, all of these ways, like, like on some level, some of our creature comforts, like, um, I don't know, shaving our legs or, um, stain removal. Yeah.
Eva: I'm trying to think like, yeah, what am I afraid I'm not going to have? I'm afraid I'm not going to have like my favorite herbal teas, honestly.
That's like a big
Diana: one. I love herbal teas. I love that one because that has nothing to do with like how you're constructing yourself to be acceptable to other people. Mm. Right. Right. But I think there are a lot of comforts that are like. Costuming, on some level. Right. And then even thinking about, you know, favorite herbal teas, like favorite things to eat.
It's like, you know, what, like, I know [01:14:00] that when I have access to this, I feel comfortable in my body. And when I'm comfortable in my body, I can show up in ways that I trust that I will be a good person to other people. Right. So if I don't have what I'm used to having that makes me feel comfortable in my body, will I be the version of myself that I'm proud to be around other people?
Oh my God.
Eva: Thank you so much for speaking to this. I really, the question that's going through is like, what am I afraid of? Like what am I afraid of? And that is going to be the ongoing exploration and, and basically, yes, I mean, and, um, I mean, fuck girl, you just, you just like nailed
Diana: it. Well, it's like those multiple layers of questions, right?
It's like, okay, herbal tea. What is good about herbal tea? What will I not have if I don't have my herbal tea? It's like, well, it's a flavor that I really like. Okay. Why do you need that? Why do you need that? Why do you
Eva: need that? It's 100 percent a comfort thing. Like basically you just fucking unfurl the whole thing.
I mean, I could see it's like what I'm afraid of not being comfortable. And then I'm afraid of what's going to, how I'm going to be like, who am I when I'm [01:15:00] uncomfortable essentially.
Diana: Right. And then there's a question of like, what kinds of comfort can you access that aren't dependent on externals? Mm hmm.
Right? Like, you know, don't put me in an itchy wool sweater. I will figure out how to not be a bitch while wearing the itchy wool sweater, but I'm probably going to be a little, like, really easy to irritate because I'm already literally physically irritated. Um, and what plants exist in the jungle that are going to mirror the experiences you're used to with the herbal teas you're used to?
Because there's so much medicine there too, right? Can you ask someone like, okay, I love. Oatstraw tea. What is the, what is the Brazilian jungle version of Oatstraw tea? Right, right, right. Which, you know, between now and then you can be like, cool, well, Oatstraw is, um, calming and it has a lot of nutrients in it, so my body feels really fed by it.
Also, it's really cheap and it has this like really light [01:16:00] flavor.
Eva: I do love oat straw and that is actually in my, in my blend of which is coming to mind when I say that I love
Diana: it. Yeah. You know, so like, like actually though, there's probably something there that will give you a version of what you need, but that is from there.
It's like, you know, if you are in a place long enough to have more than one menstrual cycle, that place's water is in your blood fully.
Eva: Medicine, medicine. I'm just receiving all of this. It's just like running through my system. I feel like we were, I was meant to have this conversation. I'm so grateful.
Diana: I'm excited for you. Thank you. It's going to be beautiful. I think it's going to be beautiful too.
Eva: And, and it's going to just be a whole. Unmasking, I think, of a lot of things.
Diana: Uncovering, yeah. [01:17:00] Kylie. Yeah. Did you have any other questions? No, I was
Kyley: just thinking about how lucky I am that I get to, like, proxy observe and learn from and receive the wisdom of your experience while still having my favorite fucking tease.
Eva: I
Kyley: really am getting the best deal out of this situation.
Eva: I love
Diana: that. Nothing like successful vicarious living, right? Right. Okay. Shall we
Kyley: do a round of
Eva: joy? Yeah. I've lost track of all time and space. Like I have no idea where we are to be honest. I'm like, how long have we been talking?
Kyley: Well, actually we, we do a round of joy.
Is there. Do you want to share with our listeners how they can work with you? We didn't even actually talk about like the specific work that you offer, how they can work with you, what you have that's, you know, in the works right now that they might be interested in.
Diana: Yeah. Um, so we didn't talk that much about astrology, but my [01:18:00] primary, uh, modality at these days is astrology.
And I call it relational astrology because I'm all about the relations between things, not relational as in a sinister or romantic relationship, but like. whatever romantic relationships or like I fall in love with the mountains every day. Um, but relational as in coming into relationship with yourself, coming into relationship with the cosmos, coming into relationship with your chart, that kind of stuff.
Um, but really my aim is helping humans, human better. That's the, that's the perpetual through line of all of my work. Um, and I do offer one on one sessions. Those go very quickly to the people who are on my Patreon. Um, my Patreon not only gives you access to my one on one calendar. Um, but we also have monthly live chats and I will share, um, like writings and like kind of mini podcasts on various topics and things like that.
And so there's a pretty deep archive, [01:19:00] um, there, um, I have several workshops and lectures available on my website. Um, and yeah, I'll just, there's a lot of them. Um, yeah. And my next speaking engagements that are on the calendar, I'm going to be presenting at the Northwest Astrological Conference that happens at the end of May in Seattle.
Um, there are obviously in person registration, but online registration is also available for that conference. And you can do that the whole conference, which then means you can watch all of the recordings for like a month or three after the conference, which is fantastic. Um, but you can also just get, you know, register for a single day.
Or whatever. Um, I'm really curious. So what does one talk about at these conferences? There's so many different things. So if you go to the Norwac website, which is Norwac. net, this is one of many, um, astrological conferences. You can see the whole archive. Like they have lots of recordings [01:20:00] available. Um, they also often have sales, but this year I will be presenting, um, one lecture called infinite resourcing, seeing from the second house, which is about the second house of the natal chart, um, and recontextualizing how resourcing is understood.
It's an extension of the workshop that I created. The not last year, but 2022 called fundamental needs required resources, which is quite beginner friendly. Um, if you're astrologically, uh, enthused, um, it's all about the first and second hoses. And then I'll be presenting a keynote lecture on astrological practices, love practice.
I'm very excited. It was my first conference keynote. So that is
Eva: exciting. Exciting. Yeah.
Diana: Oh my God. Well, I have every feeling that you're going to rock it. I hope so. I'm like already, like, whatever. Um, I did speech and debate in high school, so like speaking in public is not the thing I'm scared of, but making sure I'm prepared [01:21:00] is the one I'm more worried about, but we'll be fine.
Well, I
Kyley: would also just like to remind you that like, you are the transmission as our recording tonight is so beautifully demonstrated. So you also could just show up and like, read the phone book and
Diana: right. Well, okay. But I really want to have a really like, slick slideshow. Oh, okay. All right. That's like, I want it to be
Kyley: beautiful.
Yeah. We're here for the aesthetics. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Amazing. Oh, well, thank you. This has just been. Really. Thank you. Yeah.
Diana: Yeah. It's been my pleasure. We still got
Eva: joy to do.
Kyley: Yeah. So I was going to say, so what is, um, what is something that's bringing you joy right now?
Diana: Diana? Oh man. Um, let's see. I'm like trying to choose because there's like many options.
You can have a couple. It's pro multiple joys. Pro multi joys. Um, let's see. One thing that's giving me [01:22:00] quite a lot of joy is last weekend I made a soup with vegetables from the farmer's market, including these very dark purple carrots. And so the entire soup is purple because of these purple carrots. And it is So delightful.
It's like disgusting in photographs, but it's quite lovely and we call ugly
Eva: delicious here in Taiwan.
Diana: Yeah. Oh, I love that phrase. Oh, okay. I love your purple soup. How about you, my love? What's for me? Did you have a
Kyley: second one? Did you have?
Diana: Oh, yeah. Oh, I have. I have. I have so many, but we could like, you know, but go, go for it.
Yeah. All right. Well, I
Eva: mean, mine's well, I have a bit of a story. The mine's longer. I've been wanting to tell Kylie this story, but I haven't had a chance yet. So this is. Uh, and it's actually quite Is this a shoe story? It is a shoe story. Yeah, it's actually quite I might cry because it is so emotional.
But um, the Yeah, I told her I had a shoe story that I had to share with her about my mom. So I'm here in Taiwan. My mother's health is is is not great. And For the [01:23:00] past 10 years, maybe because she's overweight, she's been wearing these shitty 10 cent straw slippers that are just terrible for her feet. And, you know, the doctors have like, are you have knee stuff?
Like you need to get good shoes, like get some sneakers, but, but her like feet are often too waterlogged for her to put on regular size shoes. Anyway, we. The long story is that we, we got her some fucking shoes, um, we tried in the past and couldn't because everything in Taiwan is also small and like, I, I can't find underwear that fits my ass here.
And I'm like, And then, I don't know, this is a joke between me and my cousin. Like I'm like an, an XXXL here when I go to, and it's just crazy. When I go to Brazil, I might be like an extra small or something. Who knows? But anyway, so, so, so we finally got our shoes and, um, as we were leaving. So usually my mom, there's a lot of stairs in Taipei, it's a city.
And usually she, she grabs the handrail with both hands and [01:24:00] walks up the steps, like one by one by one. And she like walked out with these sneakers. And took the stairs like, like how I guess, you know, an able bodied person would and really quickly and I was like, at the end of it, like, I'm going to cry.
She was crying and I was crying and it was like, like, I always thought she couldn't because she had like knee problems, but it was like, no, no, she just didn't have the proper like footwear.
Diana: She didn't have the right support. She didn't have the right
Eva: support. And it was so simple, like shoes, you know? And so to see her like walk and be that comfortable and that agile, it was just like such a huge moment and it just, all these things were coming through about like sadness over her not being able to get the care that she needed.
And anyway, so it was like shoes guys, like shoes is just the little things that can make such a big difference. So I'm very happy. It felt like a true miracle is what it felt
Diana: like. [01:25:00] That's so
Kyley: beautiful. That's my
Diana: joy. Yeah. Thank you for listening. Thank you for sharing. Yeah. It really is such an exquisite example of how exactly the right missing puzzle piece can be as small, quote unquote, as a pair of shoes.
Eva: I mean, that's what, that's what the takeaway was. It was, it's like such a game changer, a game changer. And I, and uh, and I can see how this is parallel to a lot of different
Diana: situations in life. Yeah. Yeah.
Thank you for sharing. Yes. Thank you
Eva: so much for giving me the space to share that story. I'm really so happy about it.
Kyley: I'll give a joy that's also about my mom. So my mom is, um, lives four hours away, but she was, um, somewhat closer to me, like North of Boston. I live South. And anyway, long story short, [01:26:00] she was able to like come for like a impromptu, you know, overnight. She's here tonight. Um. Like totally at the last minute.
And that's the thing that she does, like if she can, she just does in a way that I just really appreciate. Um, and, um, and my kids were obviously so excited. I didn't even tell them she was coming anyway. My mom has a ton of energy. And so as soon as she got in the house, she was like, okay. Let's go for a walk.
And she's like, you know, just like hyper and excited and excitable. And like, immediately I've been trying to get my kids. Cause it's incredibly beautiful out today. And I was trying to get them to go outside with me and they were like, we're tired. Last unicorn or whatever. They're like, you know, actually this is kind of cute.
They have this. Oh, it's. It's a show about a unicorn that's a narwhal and the second season just came out and they're both like, they won't watch it without the other one. And they were like, they were like, we really want to watch the new season of whatever. And I was [01:27:00] like, okay, this is kind of cute anyway.
My mom came in and they just immediately were like, Nana. And it like, you know, it's like three humans with ADHD and then a four and a half year old, like it was just a fucking mess getting out the door. And we eventually went to the park and it's like so muddy because it's like the snow melt. It was just like a fucking mess, but like in a really fun way.
And it was like, the weather was warm and it got dark and there was a dog there. It was just like.
Diana: And it's just
Kyley: like fun to be alive, you know, yeah, it's so
Diana: good. Yeah. I also
Eva: just love your mom energy, your, your grandma's energy coming through like the powerhouse that she is.
Kyley: She's really, she's really, she's really great.
She's the best.
Diana: No, honestly.
Eva: Yes. This was such an amazing conversation. We would love to have you back anytime. And, um,
Diana: [01:28:00] let me know. Yeah. We'll
Eva: be sharing this probably in our top 10 for the year for sure. Yeah.
Diana: Bye. Bye. Well, thank you for inviting me on and for facilitating whatever the heck it was that wanted to come out.