Kyley and Eva sit down to talk about what has been happening in North America around ICE, immigration enforcement, and the wave of fear, grief, rage, confusion, and moral distress many people are carrying in their bodies right now.
Kyley and Eva sit down to talk about what has been happening in North America around ICE, immigration enforcement, and the wave of fear, grief, rage, confusion, and moral distress many people are carrying in their bodies right now.
They explore what happens when institutions dehumanize people, how fear spreads through communities, and why numbness can start to feel like a survival strategy. At the same time, they reflect on the quiet, often unglamorous work of staying human: letting grief be present, allowing anger without letting it harden into hatred, and remembering that compassion does not require self-destruction.
This is a conversation for anyone who feels torn between caring deeply and needing to protect their own mental and emotional health.
What we cover
🧠 How the nervous system responds to ongoing political and social threat
💔 The emotional impact of ICE enforcement on individuals and communities
🧍♀️ Why numbness, shutdown, and overwhelm are understandable responses
🔥 Making space for anger without letting it turn into dehumanization
🌊 Grief as a natural response to witnessing harm and loss of safety
🧭 The difference between staying informed and being constantly flooded
🛑 Boundaries as a form of care, not avoidance
🤝 How to hold compassion without collapsing into helplessness
Eva's instagram: @iamevaliao
Book a discovery call with Eva
Kyley's Instagram: @kyleycaldwell
Kyley's free mini-course
Kyley: [00:00:00] Hey everyone, it's Kyley.
Eva: and it's, Eva,
Kyley: Welcome to Hello Universe.
Eva: this is the conversation that I think we need to have, the conversation I want to have about what the f is going on in North America, America right now with ICE and all the big emotions that are coming with it. And I feel like we haven't really had one of these conversations in a long time.
I, I think it's a little bit overdue.
Kyley: Yeah.
Eva: I've been wanting to jump on the podcast with you, Kyley, and be like, let's talk, let's talk about it
because, um, there's been a lot going on in the world [00:01:00] recently and. I do, oftentimes they'll feel like even if I don't have the answer, I think we have conversations that, you know, help me and therefore I think help other people with, like dealing with the emotions of it, the confusion, the what the fuck do we do,
the insanity that also ultimately bring us back to a place of hope and empowerment.
And that's what I'm hoping we can do today from a Yeah, I'm thinking, I'm reading like a lot of political news. I need some like deep rich, you know, spiritual, emotional conversation about this.
Kyley: Let's do it.
Eva: I think We're in the right We're in the right place.
Kyley: Uh,
Eva: How's your heart been? How you've been feeling?
How have you been holding all of this? I mean, do we need to give a recap for people in case people are coming back to this? No. I mean, yeah. Does the world know,
I
Kyley: you need a recap, if you need a recap, go subscribe to a whole bunch of black and [00:02:00] brown women writers and speakers, and then like, then come back. Um, I, my heart is heavy and the sense of purpose is strong. That's what I, that that's the, that's the place that I have been existing in. Um, you know, I mean, I think obviously as a time of we're recording this, you know, Minnesota has been very hot.
There's been, you know, multiple murders by ICE agents. Um, and I think one of the things for me is, um. By being like, not surprised. I think that's been like a huge feeling for me is like, yeah, this is, this [00:03:00] is the inevitable outcome of these like choices that have been made around, you know, who has agency and what their motivations are.
And um, and so I think there, I know there's some people who are like feeling like some shock of like, oh my gosh, how is this our country? And I feel like, yeah, this is our country. Like, yeah.
Eva: after the past few years, we've had the shock conversation. Like, I remember when Trump was elected the first time, which
was, I guess it's amazing to think how long ago that was,
but there was some genuine shock I remember.
Um, yeah, And, and unfortunately it's just been, uh, you know, that really woke us up to, I think, the truth of what's, what's, what's happening and
has been happening for a long time.
Kyley: Yeah. And I think, um, so I think my, I feel in this moment, like [00:04:00] I have this feeling of like the veil being ripped from our collective eyes, right? Because I think there are, there are some people who I think are like realizing with like fresh eyes. You've even seen a lot of people who voted for Trump being like, oh, I fucked up.
You know? So I think I just have this feeling of this like collective veil coming off of people's eyes and some people really needing to like grapple with some level of like grief and shock. And I have a lot of grief and some fear for sure. In this moment right now, I also have this like sense of purpose.
If we had this conversation two weeks ago, I think I was much more in the like fear and
Eva: Mm-hmm.
Kyley: stage. And now I feel like, okay, fucking lock in. What's the assignment? Um, but um, how is your heart,
Eva: Well, I think it's interesting that you said if you had mentioned this, you know, if you had, [00:05:00] if you had talked, we have, if we had checked in two, two weeks ago, you might've been in a more overwhelmed state. And I think, I'm just finding that I'm, I'm vacillating all the time and I wonder if I'm just going to continue to vacillate,
especially depending on how things go.
Like if there's another murder, which I wouldn't be surprised if there was, like, if something else contin, if the, if catastrophic things continue to happen. My nervous system is continuously gonna be like, uh, going through these heavy phases of despair, it feels like despair and overwhelm and anger and like rage.
And there's, and sometimes the range and the anger is good, but to the point where it's
um,
Kyley: Like a reactive version
Eva: yes, yes, yes, disempowered. Um, and it, it's still a pendulum swing depending, and I think. That's okay.
I think part a lot of it is like I'm just feeling my feelings. Um, obviously I prefer it when I feel more empowered and there are moments of that [00:06:00] too. And I actually think that's the work. I think that's a lot of the work for me actually is how, and I think for many of us is to not, I mean, I think that's what a lot of this episode might be is like, remember like how it, it's mm. That is like the kryptonite, the hopelessness and the powerlessness and the, and the despairing and the cynicism and all of that.
And I really, I, I know that that is the kryptonite that they, whoever they are, you know, The they
Kyley: system as actually like, like fascism, like it is fueled by our despair, right? Like, it, it generates I've been thinking about this. Sorry, I'm interrupting you.
Eva: Yeah. No, but I'm, yeah. Well, well go ahead.
Kyley: Well, I've just been thinking about this, like, there's three ways that fascism like consumes you. One is you hook, line and sinker by the bullshit, and then you're out there, you know, like a, an [00:07:00] ice agent or you're an apologist for it because, you know, somehow you're benefiting from the system of it and you don't want to poke the bear, or you see it for what it is, and then they drown.
You get drowned in despair, right? Just like, like seeing the violence and the horror of it with open eyes. You know, much like watching everything that's happened in Palestine, it's like it just. You just drown in despair. And so it's this feeling of like he, no matter which, what, you know, what you're willing to see about the truth of humanity, we're gonna get you either way.
And so I've just been thinking about how like despair is like food for fascism and how, and, and, and also how my despair is like for me then my despair is actually that I haven't let myself feel my anger or my grief or both. And so I just try to keep coming back to [00:08:00] like, like the system runs off of my despair.
And so I like, I'm not fucking giving it, I'm not feeding my despair. I'm not like, I'm not giving, you don't, you don't get my despair. Because that's one thing I actually do have some agency over, um. Which isn't to say I don't slip into despair, I've, but I 100% do. But then I feel like I, I just, I feel like, okay, but we can't stay here because if I stay here, then like that's what this whole system is wants me to
Eva: Yeah, exactly. Then, yeah, then I'm, then they sort of got me. I
almost feel like that's what it feels like, you know? And I feel like. That is, who does that serve? And also then how am I helping at all?
Um, and it's like the opposite of what I believe, which is like love, you know? Like I really believe in this love that I think is what I think is like running the whole show.
And I, and I miss it, all of it. And it's still around us [00:09:00] all the time, but I just forget because that's what despair is and cynicism is, it's like, you just think it's a whole, it's a black hole.
Kyley: Mm-hmm.
Eva: And that being said, I think what I struggle with is like, I don't want to be despairing, and I feel like sometimes because I don't wanna be despairing, I end up closing my heart because I think that's, I'm trying to protect myself or avoid feeling despairing.
So that means like, so then I'm like, okay, then don't take any of it in because like it's too much. My little sensitive, you know, heart can't take all of this. So I need to just like, shut it down a little bit and like avoid. That also doesn't, that also, that that is a different kind of hell
that also feels really, really shitty.
Like I, I can speak from firsthand, I speak there's, and it's tricky. It's like that balance. So that's a different kind of hell. The, the, the avoidance that I know is also there. And then there's the, okay, so then actually let it all in, which is, I think what you're speaking to, like really feel the feelings really be with the grief and all of it without it being [00:10:00] despairing.
And that's like an interesting dance, you know, it's like a nuanced dance. And also just as much as I think like this, there is a dance for me of like staying in informed, and I don't wanna look away, you know, I don't wanna look away. But also if I look too much, then I'm in despair again and
I'm, you know, I'm like in social media and it's fucking three o'clock in the morning and I'm in a fucking rabbit hole and then I'm
despairing. So it's like trying to find all of these different ways to balance it,
Kyley: Okay. I had one really powerful mo teaching moment that taught me something really big, which is like we, I don't think, I don't think we can get ourselves out of despair alone, like we need each other. Like this moment I think is like highlighting so powerfully that we need community, that we need each other, that we have to like build community on all sorts of different ways and different levels.
And so a couple weeks ago, it was like two weeks ago, anyway, there was a point that I was like really deep in despair and I [00:11:00] felt really scared and I just felt like. I just like, I could feel this like hopelessness in on, like sitting on my chest and a lot of fear that was like a panicky kind of fear
and, and I was making me bitchy with my kids. Um, 'cause you're like trying to like present, right? There's this like false veneer thing that's happening. Right. And finally I just like sobbed to my husband in the kitchen. I just was like, I, I just have to unload about all of these things that I am feeling.
And I was like, and you will want to fix this and you can't fix this right now. Like Right. Like, I need you to be in this with me. I need you to not be like the lovable fixer that you are very capable of being, but I need you to like be in this with me and then together we can, you know, we can make a plan or Right.
Yeah. And he did beautifully. And almost immediately I started to have access to possibility and hope and action.
Eva: Ugh.
Kyley: And I had, you know, I'm [00:12:00] like, I have all these tools. I know all this emotional regulation. And it's like, no, actually I was just fucking stewing until I like in community with my husband, like shared, and we were vulnerable together.
And then that's where possibility came in.
Eva: It's so true. I had the same experience with Tom, you know, talking with Tom about it and expressing like, I think a lot of the fears that I was feeling inside with me, and I'm sure, um, yeah, I think that's like such a help. It's such a small thing and maybe I wonder if some people are al already doing it.
Maybe they have these communities set up already where they're really talking about it and like being, and, and feel comfortable grieving in front of other people. And then, and, and, together actually this power comes about where you're actually like, no, actually we can like figure this out. We can feel these feelings.
Or these are things we can do these things that work and like whatever. You know, there's something that comes from, from that and so it's a helpful reminder to not to actually sit down and talk to people about it. Not just like being with [00:13:00] people where you're like both. Were like, well, we we're just trying to like get our, get through our day.
You know? It's like actually having these conversations. But I will also say. It's interesting because, you know, I hear you on like being bitchy with your kids, like the veneer thing, that's a painful experience. You
know, I hate that. I was also having the same thing with my, with, with my parents from like, 'cause I've been caretaking for them and feeling like I saw this thing on social media of this woman, like her, like talking about her or she was sharing her inner dialogue. She's like, as a mother who's also trying to deal with like a Fascist America. And it was just like, the dialogue is like you're getting lunch ready and you're trying to do laundry and you're taking 'em to school while also wondering like, you know, all of these fearful thoughts that are coming in and contending with this.
And it's just like this really wild, chaotic internal experience. And I was, I was just laughing 'cause I kind of felt like that's how it was
going with my parents. Like I
was just like, I was just trying to get through the day and do all these things with them. They get them to the doctor, but inside there was all this worry. [00:14:00] And then I realized, and then there was something else that shifted to me where I was like, oh wait, but like part of like the resistance is to. Be like, in this loving presence with the people who I wanna hold onto so dearly, you know? And it was a shift in my own energy instead of like trying to pretend that I didn't feel this way.
It was like this love came in and they was, and I was, and I wasn't speaking to my parents about what was going on. They have, my dad knows, my mom has no idea. Um, but it was just like, wait, this is what it's all about. It's like this love here and this like this. I, I feel so this privilege that I have to be with these people who I love and who I cherish very much.
And all this like, warmth came into my heart. And that was also a source of, I think, community that came through that got me out of like the cynicism where I was like, wait a second. I think the world is like, when I'm in that place, I'm like, oh, the world is dark and people are fucked up. And then I'm like, wait, no, but there's love all around me, [00:15:00] all the, all the time.
You know? That's not like taking, like, not like not taking everything I see on social media. As like fact and like looking at my own reality and my own experience, which is that like people are good.
Kyley: Yeah. Yeah. Oh, that's really beautiful. I mean, sim similar for me. It was like once I like let the damn burst, like I let myself be really fucking sad. Then I just like the, the bitchiness around my kids just like dissolved, you know, like the bitchiness and what's really interesting is that once I actually like, let myself feel the like really tremendous grief, I just wasn't bitchy with my kids anymore.
'cause the veneer was actually with me, right? Mm-hmm. Um, the veneer was like me trying to pretend to me that every, that I was fine. And so then admitting, no, I actually have similar to you, [00:16:00] like the softness came in that was just like, oh, there is room for all of this. There is room for like how sweet and tender and silly this is.
And there is room for how horrifying this is. And in allowing it, yeah, there was just like a softness.
Eva: Yeah. Well, I mean, I, I, I think I'm happy that we're sharing this 'cause I know we're not alone in this experience. You know, I think this is like the internal landscape of a lot of us right now. And I would just wanna speak it out into existence to let other people know that you're not crazy, you're not alone.
And this is like a weird dance that we're all doing. But I also think there are actual, like down to earth practical things we can do to keep ourselves in grounded in truth and love and reality.
Kyley: And
Eva: those things.
Kyley: Yes. Yes. And we, I think we have an obligation to do those things because like this fight, so to speak, is I think is material. It's like [00:17:00] for our bodies and our spirits. Right. And I think that like we are, we take more powerful action when we are like not reactive or not filled with despair. So like, if you wanna take like, I think.
I think we have a responsibility in this moment to take this like material action and also like own our shit emotionally, spiritually, you know, it's a yes. And, and I think sometimes we can feel like this, like almost like panicky pressure to do. And I think we just have to remember it's, it's both because the actions that we take, if we are reactive or we are like despairing, like we don't see opportunity where we can help if we're drowning in despair, right?
And we, and so, um, and so I think tending to our emotional state, like is meaningful, important [00:18:00] work, especially when we allow it to be coupled with actual action, whatever that action may be. And, and I wanna name that because I think when it feels like there's crisis. It can, and the stakes feel really high.
It can seem like navel gazing to like, tend to your emotional state. Right. And it, and it is like, if yes, we can do this enabling coddling thing where it's just like, oh, well I can't because I have to like regulate my, that's not what I'm talking about. But I do think, like, I think that's toxic fascist bullshit, that our soft emotions are weaknesses and need to just be ignored, right?
Like they're an integral part of, of, of this journey. Especially when we engage with them in a way that then guides us towards like, what is my action? What is my role? What is my, what is the opportunity here for me to act? Um,
Eva: I mean, wait one like 100%. By the way though, let me just say [00:19:00] that you're naming, uh, like something that I am contending with all the time, which is the story of it. It is a very like, self-critical story of like, and this like, you know, internal, um, spiritual work that I do. I do actually think. Is like part of the Rev.
I think it's like, it is the revolution. Do you know what I mean? Like, and, and also there's a voice in me that goes, but that is naval gazing. Like it's not, you know, I'm not doing like enough of the other thing. I'm so focused on myself. And it is, again, it's back to this dance that I feel like, that I'm kind of figuring out and doing all the time because I truly believe that it does begin, like the freedom begins within each of us.
And that can be, I mean, one person's freedom. I think the ripple of that is everything it, cause it's, it's everything. But at the same time, I think we, I think just [00:20:00] everybody comes to this work differently and everyone has their part. And I think that's, for me, that does feel like part of my own part, but also like, I don't want, when it becomes too insular,
you know, and I'm, and.
Kyley: Yeah.
Eva: It's kinda like blocking me out from the world. That's
where I feel like then it does become, um, and it's not just navel gazing, but it's almost like I've, there could just be like too much
Kyley: like an avoidance.
Eva: anything. Yes. Yes. Too much of anything, I think is like anything out of balance, right. I think is like not great.
And so again, also like finding the balance with that, but, and also wanting to respect, like, I think I have a really negative internal critic when it comes to this stuff. Like you, you and I talk, have these conversations all the time. I'm always like, I'm not doing enough and I feel really guilty and I feel bad about my privilege and I'm worried and blah, blah, blah.
All that's a constant thing that's in my mind. And again, the practice for me is like, and also, but I think it's, it's [00:21:00] honoring anything that I think brings me back to like my soul and nature that I think colonialism wants to tell me like is. Of less value, you know? And I'm like, wait, and I just, yeah. I can see myself feeling like confused at times.
Does that make sense of like, what, what is, yeah. trying trying to figure out my part I think is a big question that I have.
Kyley: Well, and I've been thinking for you, like you have, you're the daughter of immigrants in this like, horrible, you know, kidnapping of immigrants and you live in Brazil and Taiwan. You don't live here in America. And I have been particularly, we haven't actually had a chance to talk about this off air, but I've just been thinking of how this must be such an in like, like intense and als the intense experience for you in a particular kind of way that also has this weird, like, [00:22:00] you're not here, right?
So that part of you that's like, okay, there's work to do, is like, you can't, like you're not here, right?
Eva: Yeah.
So,
Kyley: my heart for that.
Eva: yeah, I mean, first of all, let me just tell you, it is a very, I guess for lack of a better word, weird experience for me to be like, I don't, I'm like nervous about getting on a plane and going back to America because it's just a different America now. I'm like, I don't actually think anything's gonna happen, but I'm a person of color.
So, I don't know, it just kinda feels like anybody who's a person of color isn't safe. Like that's actually what it feels like. And I'm going back to la you know, I'm going back to LA to pass. So I'm like, I don't know, LA is safe. But still, like, these are things that I, that any person of color is contending with now.
Um, which is just, I don't know. And I, if I'm being totally honest, I feel like I feel these weird feelings and I'm like, okay, so, but this is how people feel all the time. You know, like I don't [00:23:00] always feel this way. I live in a very safe Asian enclave, you know, of California where there's a bunch of Asian people.
And I feel, and I, and I love that I grew up with Asian people and you know, it's just, and I've always felt safe in that. And also I'm like, but it's wake waking me up to the fact of like, this is people's reality, you know, all the time all over the world. You know what I mean? I don't just mean like America.
And so that's interesting to look at. It's also, I'm like, but it's also like heartbreaking. 'cause when I see images of people, you know, being detained, I'm like, those are my parents
and those are my parents. Like, and, and I could have been that kid who was, who like was separated and came, you know, like came home, my parents were gone.
Like, that is fucking, it's fucking insane. And it's, it's, that's where like a lot of the, the heartbreak comes from as well. And then feeling like far away from it, which is disorienting. Because
like part of me wishes that I was there more. 'cause I feel like I would be there [00:24:00] like with my people and then like maybe more, um, there would be like more, uh, what's the word I'm looking for?
Just more people to connect with on, on this, you know? And more, ah, what's the word? Where you like pick up steam and you like roll within
my more stuff. Momentum Momentum, yes.
Um, and so all of that's a little bit disorienting, but also I'm also grateful that I'm actually far away from it, honestly.
And also I don't, the thing that's okay about being far away from it is I'm like, this is not new.
This has been happening, um, for a lot longer than since the dawn of time.
Since the dawn of time. Shit's like this just has been happening throughout humanity. And so it doesn't matter where I am. Like this is, this is like the work that we need to do in our lifetime. Always. Yeah,
but it's always a both and, you know, it's like, it's, it's [00:25:00] all of these conflicting things all at once, but, um, it, that feeling of like not feeling safe to go back to California is like, what America are we living in? That's what's really, uh, scary and heartbreaking to me.
Mm-hmm.
Kyley: have anything wise to say because I'm just like, fuck yeah.
Eva: Mm-hmm.
Kyley: yeah. and.
Eva: You know, I, I do miss, I miss the America that I feel like it's, it's interesting because I wanna say like, I miss the America that I feel like I grew up with, you know, like in the eighties and the nineties. And it was like, and, and um, especially in la you know, it's like so diverse. You have your Mexicans, you have your Asians, you have your black people, your white people.
It's like this beautiful soup. And then I, and then I'm also like, I go back and forth and I'm like, but it was that all an illusion. I was a kid. And so it was much more idealized and people were dying all the fucking time. [00:26:00] You know what I mean? Like, so I don't know when, when I say
that, what
Kyley: at least in the nineties, we like all, were on the same page that Nazis were fucking bad. You know? Like, like yes. Like yes. This is, um, like. This is a homegrown problem. You know, this is one of the things that I think I, I've been really appreciating people speaking to is like the model here, ICE's model is not Nazis, it's slave catchers.
Like this is, this is, this is rot that has been in the fabric of America for like the whole fucking time.
Eva: Yeah. It's what Bay America's based on.
Kyley: Right.
Eva: to be. Yeah.
Kyley: And, and so like I see what you're saying of like, was that an illusion? Because like of course, right? Like this rot has been there the whole time and, and also, and that was a true experience of your childhood of like, look at how beautiful it is to be in a world where like everybody is not like me.
And also [00:27:00] like people are people, I mean like Right. That is also true. Like the yes and ness of that is, you know, like,
Eva: Yes and yes.
Yeah,
Kyley: is I think also part of what's heartbreaking, like. Underneath that, or alongside that, there was also this rot, but your experience was also true.
Eva: yeah, yeah. It's just wild. I'm like, 'cause there, there are a lot of stories of like Americans, right? Like getting stopped in the street and having, being assaulted essentially. Like even if you're Americans, even if you have your papers, even have all, you have all your shit, you have your driver's license.
It's like they're just targeting people based on how you look.
And how you speak and where you're located, you know, it's fucking insane. Yeah. So this is the world that we, it feels like, well this is what I mean, like when I say like, I make these statements, like this is the world that we're living in. You know, I wanna say that's the America that we're living in.
But the truth is, I don't actually think that's true at the same time, because I actually think most people [00:28:00] don't want this. I actually think this idea of like, oh, the Republicans want this and the Democrats don't. I think that's a fucking lie. I think that is this division that is working really well for the people who want to like, cause this mess and take power.
I, I actually think, and I've actually been reading and it's, and it's interesting because it's all about what news you take in, but I've been reading news that's been telling me that the polls are saying, most people think ice is a mess. Even Republicans, you know? And they're like, this has just gone overboard and we're ready to like, you know, defund ice.
That's what
I am reading. And I think it's just, it's also just tricky though, because your reality these days is just like, what information are you taking in? And I don't know what, sometimes I'm like, I don't know, even know what's like, what's true and not true.
Kyley: Well, okay. This is where I think we should talk about social media for a minute
Eva: Yes, please. 'cause it's, plays a huge role in all of this.
Kyley: [00:29:00] [00:30:00] and it's like, like I have been, I have been following a bunch of people who are like sharing on the ground things in Minnesota or they are on the ground in Minnesota, and I have found that the most helpful, or there's also a couple of people who I follow.
This is my [00:31:00] friend's, very brilliant advice. She was like. Pick like six people that you really trust, sign up to their substack, pay them $5 to support them. And then she was like, and then don't listen to anybody else. And I haven't quite committed to that, but I really liked that idea of like, commit to voices that you trust and then be boundaried about it.
Eva: Mm-hmm.
Kyley: I, um, I, so I feel like we need, like, we need news and conversation about these things. And also I watched, so earlier in the summer, towards the end of the summer, I put on strong, um, like boundaries on my social media. Like I've downloaded, I paid for an app so that I could like schedule. So from like 9:00 PM to 10:00 AM I like, can't go on social media.
And I watched my mental health immediately get way better immediately. And then when all this started happening in Min, in Minnesota in particular, I just started, I kept bypassing. I just kept bypassing. 'cause I'd be like, oh, like, well, I need to like watch for like five more minutes [00:32:00] or whatever. Right.
Then I immediately watched my mental health just fucking take a nose dive
Eva: Yes. and
also my productivity. 'cause then I'm just like, I'm deprived of energy and I just feel so shitty afterwards. My and my brain is just rotting, but yeah. Mm-hmm.
Kyley: yes. And so then, and then I, and then I was like, I gotta recommit to these like blocks. And then my mental health immediately started to stabilize. And I just think it's so vital that we recognize like, yes, you know, I've been hearing when people talk about how like social media is our town square for better or worse.
And so like it is an important place for us to have these conversations and be part of these conversations. And also like get the fuck off of these apps because they are a tool for the empire. Like they are not your friend. And it will fuck you up. It is designed to suck you in and suck you dry. And we are all vulnerable to it.
And I am saying this to myself
Eva: Yes.
Kyley: for myself.[00:33:00]
Get off the fucking apps.
Eva: I, I completely agree. Like that's what's so fascinating to me about this experience is that. What did you say? It's a tool for the Empire. Is that what you said? Because I actually think, I'm noticing that that tend, that seems to be like what's happening for me. Like if I would just check in with my own experience that all the negative things that I'm feeling and talking about are like, yeah, lead. It's like the empire wins essentially when I'm, when I'm in the social media world. Even when I'm reading things that seemingly are helpful. Like, like that's why it's so confusing. 'cause it's like I'm reading, I'm from people who, you know, I really admire and, and they're talking about, I don't even, I can't think of an example Things, I dunno things that I could do, you know, helpful things that you can do or, um, I don't, I don't, I don't know, but I think it's just, even if it's like. Packaged [00:34:00] as helpful, positive information. It's still information overload somehow that is not serving me. So I really like this idea of like, yeah, pick like your five people and then really see if you can commit to not going, you know, too much outside all over the place because, uh, I don't know, because I think I can really deceive myself and be like, I need to be informed a lot is like what I'm, what I tell myself, you know, I wanna be informed, but there's, it just, there's a, um, what do you call when you hit like a wall when it just like doesn't, it's just like not helpful anymore.
It's, I don't know, it's tricky. This is like the dance that I'm talking about, you know?
Kyley: Well, I'm also feeling like, again, because you're far away, I feel like some of that pressure to be informed. I wonder if some of that is like, because this is the thing I can do,
Eva: That's true. And it feels, I mean, it helps me feel like connected actually to like what's, to what's going on? Yeah.
Kyley: Weirdly, I keep thinking about this. The, the image that keeps coming to my mind is like, I remember when I was in London and my grandmother died, and I
Eva: Mm
Kyley: [00:35:00] just this like.
Weird grieving disconnection where I'm like walking around a city where like no one else,
Eva: Yeah.
Kyley: my family's all at the funeral and like, I decided not to go back for, you know, whatever. So I like stayed for this trip. 'cause my grandmother like really super loved to travel, and it felt like, it felt like what she would want me to do.
But I just keep thinking of that for you is like, there's this like grief that's happening, but then you're in this weird disconnect because like, it's, it's
Eva: kinda isolated here, you know, like it's a,
Kyley: Yeah. You're removed from it. And like,
Eva: Yeah.
Kyley: at least, like my, my neighbor and I are both like, okay, like, you know, what's the neighborhood plan?
You know, like, it's like, it's a different, the, there's, there's something, there's, there, there is a way that I can, my grief can like, I can like make something material with my grief that in a way that, you
Eva: yeah. Yes. And coming back. Yeah, so, so that's not helping. And that's why I'm like, I can, I can [00:36:00] feel all like the, I can feel the experience I'm having with social media and I, so I probably feel like, I wonder if I'm in it in social media even more than some other people. Some people might be really good about being bounded about that, you know, and they're just
like, Nope, I'm shutting, shutting it down. But social media is an interesting thing because, I don't know, I just don't know if it's like a helpful or dangerous tool these days, to be honest. And I, because my algorithm is probably, you know, set up in a way that's designed, you know, it, that probably it is designed to hook me in even more. And it's perpetuating these stories I think of like good and bad, you know, us versus, I don't, it's subtle, but there is
like a. I'm reading all the comments, you know, and
like the ridiculous people, people were saying. Then I'm getting like,
like
Kyley: know, I know. What is it about gonna read comments? It's just like, it's like, I think it's the part of me that like, wants to be mad. You know? It's like, like, like the part of me that.
Eva: I wanna know what the people are saying. For me, it's genuine curiosity. I wanna know.
'cause I was, the [00:37:00] comment section I remember 'cause I won't talk about this.
Okay.
The comment section, and you were saying like, what's up with the positive comment section?
So I just wanna say, I wanna know what the people are saying. Like that's why I go to the, I'm not trying, like I'm genuinely curious. I thought that's why people went to the conference section.
Kyley: But I know when the comments are gonna be trash, and I still sometimes go there. Like I don't, I don't always go to comments that I know will be trashed, but when I do, I'm like, why are you, why are you doing like, this is, you're not doing this.
Eva: Oh, that's interesting. Now you're giving me this whole like more nuanced, in depth psychological as viewpoint of like, oh wait, maybe there's something going on here. It's like the drama of it. You know, like maybe we're attracted to the tea. We're like, oh, well
let's just see what trash is here.
But I've never thought about
Kyley: mad about this like, bullshit in my country and like I wanna read, you know, like Karen's, you know, Maga, Karen's bullshit. So I can just be like, ah, you are the problem,
Eva: Yes. Okay. [00:38:00] See, this is what I'm talking about. Like, this is where I think social media is, is, uh, a dangerous tool for festering. Just more cynicism, more division, more hate. It's like, I want someone to blame. I don't, I see that sometimes. And it's also like there's this almost like righteous, egotistical ness in me that I can notice sometimes where I'm just like, I'm right.
You're, I don't know. So there's something there, you know,
I'm getting something out of it. Like, I'm right, you're wrong. Or like, what are these assholes up to? Or
like, and I, anyway, and so, yes, you're right. And I think we could spend a whole episode, I guess, you know, dissecting the psychological, um, like nuances behind all of that.
But I think what I really wanna speak to is this point. Of like social media being really damaging because I do actually think it's creating more divide or, or, and also making it seem like there's more divide than I think there actually is.
Kyley: I think it's [00:39:00] interesting, my perspective, my experience is less about divide as, as in like the media that I'm consuming is making me feel less about division and more about like, um, like how do I put this into words? Hmm. My experience is just more like, oh, there are like actual evil villains in charge
Eva: Mm-hmm.
Kyley: and, um, they will manipulate all of us and it fucking sucks.
And so it's interesting. I, I personally experience less. Of like weight or pain around the division because it's like the division's fucking manufactured and it's manufactured by the like emperor palpatine sitting at the top. Um,
Eva: Well then in that case, I think then I think I, I would agree. I think you're like, you're focusing on the right thing. Because I actually think my like, um, sort of, do you call it [00:40:00] conspiracy theory? What's not isn't really a conspiracy theory is that like there is this manufactured division happening and that takes up a lot of our time and our
energy and also gives people a place to blame and it's just a distraction.
It's like a focus. It's like, it's like taking away our focus from what you are speaking to, which is like just really looking at, I agree. I actually do believe that there are just like a. A few actually like a v some, a few villainous people up top who are just really ha are like playing some, some really sick, cynical game who are really happy to just, I don't know, fuck the world over, you know, for their game. And I feel like this, the division that you know, that I do think some of us really get caught up in like this reup Republicans and Democrats or whatever they and us and whatever. I think it is a way that help, that takes away from like doing the actual work.
But
Kyley: Yeah. Yeah. I mean
Eva: I do think that that's a real thing that's happening, you know?
Kyley: I think so too. I mean, there's tons of [00:41:00] research about it too, right? And I think, um, I think. To go back to the point about like, this is a homegrown problem. Like the fab in the soil of what we call America is the blood of indigenous people, the blood of enslaved people taken from their homeland.
Like, and you know, like is the blood of people who have been used and misused. And so in addition to, there's some evil villains at the top of the, you know, at the top of all this, the system that we have created in this country breeds that, right? Like the system, it's like our, our ecosystem in America like creates evil villains at the top.
Right? And I think the reason I think that that's important is because I think this is where we have our, this is our [00:42:00] like individual accountability piece is like. You know, like I, my job is to unlearn where white, white, white privilege and white supremacy like lives inside of me because like, that's what I have.
Like, that's what I have been grown in, right? And like it is, um, it's in me and I have a responsibility to like see it and extricate myself from it. And, um, and when we don't, then that's when we are like, subject to our role in this really toxic, painful system that again, like creates these evil feelings at the top.
But I think it's really easy to point a finger and be like, you know, people have, people are like, you know, there's a funny meme, right? Where people are just like, is he dead yet? Is he dead yet? And it's also like, but it's, Trump is just a figurehead of a thing that has existed for so much longer. And like we.
Like it is these [00:43:00] evil, almost like cartoon characters in their like villainy. And also it's the like soil and our lack of account and unwillingness to be accountable to our own culture and like what it has created, like the monsters that it has created. And I think that's just really important because it's not just like, oh, we'll cut the head off the monster and then we're safe.
It's like, no, it's, it's an inside
Eva: root. That's a Yeah, exactly. No, it's an inside game. And it's also this, it's, it's much deeper than that. Like exactly. Like whatever we, well, I think you're, when you say cut off the monster, I don't think you're literally talking about like getting a new president. 'cause I don't think, I don't think.
Kyley: Yeah.
Eva: I, I don't know how listeners, I don't think a lot of people here are like, okay, yeah, like I trust the government. Like, let me just get a new president. Like, and everything's gonna be fine. Let's just elect a Democrat and then every and there are problems will be solved. You know, like, I don't think, uh, yeah, most people are not, you know, in it putting their trust in the [00:44:00] government, I would say. Or, or I don't know. What do you think? Do you think people are,
I think it depends on who you're speaking to, right?
Kyley: Well, like that's what we did. You're like, when you're talking about like the nineties, right? Like as another child as a nineties, like, I was like, oh yeah, like the government's good. Like, right. Like, I mean, not perfect, right? But like, that's the story that I think we, that's part of what's crumbling right now, right?
Is this like, like, oh no, this, like this line. People keep saying like, no one's coming to save. Like we are the ones
Eva: Mm-hmm. Yes, yes, yes. Yes.
Kyley: like, because I think we were grown on this idea of like, like, I always laugh, it was like taught like, well Martin Luther King came and racism and like he, he ended racism
Eva: Yeah, total. Exactly. And now Exactly. Yeah.
Kyley: and now, uh, and now we can trust the government. It was like.
Eva: okay. So think, okay, I'm really happy that we're here because this is the part that I'm getting excited about. You're right. I do think my younger self was like, yeah, like this is a democracy and I believe in democracy, and then that's [00:45:00] beautiful. And look at this beautiful democracy that we have in America and we just vote and use, use our voting power and then everything will be fine and whatever.
But really now, one thing that Trump is doing actually, which is kind of fucking awesome, is that he's made the government such a fucking shit show that it, there is this sense now of like, oh wait, I don't trust the fucking, I mean, I don't trust the fucking, I mean this has been a long time
coming, you know, so it's not new, but it's also like it is getting, I think more and more and more and more people are like, this whole thing is all fucked up.
And speaking to what you were saying earlier, like there's a root problem here actually that like. Can get addressed. And I think that's what I'm excited about. And it's not, and the government is, are not the people who are gonna save us. And I love this rhetoric of like, it is the people and the community. And that's like the revolution that I am excited about that I think we might like, there's the poss, there's the possibility for that. You know, people waking up to the fact of like not putting the power outside of ourselves
and almost not depending on other [00:46:00] people to save our ass.
Kyley: yeah, yeah.
Eva: I'm excited about that.
Kyley: Well, you know what's the funny image came to my head as you were talking, you know how the, think of the job that you had, where you had the fucking worst boss, like, just like a total micromanaging
Eva: Mm-hmm.
Kyley: I guarantee you really loved your coworkers there.
Eva: Oh my. Yeah. Oh, that's so interesting. You had
Kyley: And there's actual like studies that show that like basically like shitty bosses, like super bind people like you like become this like really intense team in part because you're having to deal with the like fuckery of this micromanaging shitty boss. And I just have that image like on the like Amer, like the like countrywide scale of like Trump is our like terrible boss and we're all just like, well fuck you.
I'm taking an extra long cigarette break and we're plotting your downfall.
Eva: Yes. Well, that's actually really heartening because again, this is like one of, it might be one of the gifts [00:47:00] of this administration and all of this, you know, but I do think one of the gifts for sure is just like this bail that you're speaking about being like lifted, is that, um, I really, the the things that I love most, I think that I see on social media are the people, or are the comments about, like, it's not the Republicans or the Democrats, you know, it's not this system.
We need a whole nother fucking system. And it may not. Happen in our lifetime. And, and I think that's also a really helpful reminder for me. 'cause I'm like, wait a second, this stuff takes a lot of time. And if it doesn't, if I'm expecting it to happen in my lifetime, then I might be disappointed and then I might fall back into like hopelessness.
But I mean, we are in such a different place than we were, you know? We are, there has been a lot of progress made. I mean, there's still a lot of fuckery, but you, I actually do feel like, I mean, come on, there were lynchings, there were like public lynchings back in the day where people would gather around in town squares and somehow enjoyed watching [00:48:00] people die.
Like that's just,
that's an in,
Kyley: Eva like, oh boy, was lynched on a college campus this 2025 and it didn't even make the news and it was like pretended,
Eva: I saw. No, but what I mean by like, I mean by like, our psyches are like, people used to watch that for sport, like lynchings, you know, like people like, and that was something that they did like the, that the community came together and just like. That I, I like to be able to witness violence like that in your
Kyley: But isn't that what we're doing with these videos of Renee Goode and Alex Prety? I've been thinking about this. I'm not like, this is a genuine question, right? But like, like, like I'm, I think it's really, really important that these videos exist and I am like so grateful to the people who like,
Eva: Mm-hmm.
Kyley: in, who took these videos, and also like, we are just circulating and we have been right from like George Floyd, right?
Like, we have been circulating videos of murder and then like watching them and then like putting our phone down and [00:49:00] fucking doing laundry. like,
Eva: Yeah. Yeah. That's interesting. I mean, I think,
I don't
Kyley: like I get what you're saying is like, it used to be like a let's all go have a picnic and watch someone get hanged.
Eva: right, like.
Kyley: still
Eva: entertainment. I, yeah. I mean I think so. I think what you're speaking to is really interesting, like. This is a modern day version of people seeing death. And I don't think that, and that's what social and social media is interesting too, because I don't think we were seeing it as much in the nineties.
We were like, unless you were like watching the news,
but now it's like in your face in the same way that I think it used to be when people used to go watch public lynchings. So
that's interest. That's an
Kyley: between fucking cat videos, right?
Eva: and that's also another, oh my God, it's just so fucking, it's so weird. Like I can tell my body is just doing weird things when I'm like laughing and then crying and like, it's disorienting.
It's really
Kyley: Yeah.
Eva: Um, but I do think, I just mean we have become more progressive over time and I think we've had more emotional [00:50:00] intelligence and we have more empathy. And all of, I do think that we've evolved as a
human race. And so going back to this idea of like. It's, it, it's probably not gonna happen.
It may not happen. Hey, it would be great if it happened in our lifetime. I would love that. I think some, I'm still an optimist. I think a lot of things can happen, can change in our lifetime for the good, but also like this utopia that I actually think is possible on earth, because I do think I'm, I'm ous. I, I actually think it's possible anyway to have like heaven on earth. If we, you know, like then that would be really interesting. But, um, and it may not happen in my lifetime, but I think I'm okay with that. You know, just remembering that it's gonna take a long, long, long, long, long, long time. And I find that to be somehow heartening. I dunno
why, because I think my actions still make, you know, they still have an impact that I had to remember. My actions have an [00:51:00] impact that I may not see now, but it's for, you know. Future generations to come, which is the same way that we, you and I get to benefit from all of these things because of all these other people who, you know, lived differently and, and, bravely way before we were ever, we ever came along.
Kyley: you know, there's this really beautiful creator, um, their handle is possibility Maven, and they talk about this a lot. Like, you can't create a future that you don't, that you can't imagine. Like if you don't, I can't imagine it. Right? You can't create it. And that she, they talk a lot about the, the, we have a responsibility to imagine the future that we want to live in and then act accordingly.
And, um, and that like imagining is liberatory work anyway. I really highly recommend that
Eva: Mm-hmm.
Kyley: follow this creator. There's just like really a really powerful source of, um, wisdom. And that's what I was
Eva: it called again?
Kyley: Possibility Maven is their handle. And I was thinking about [00:52:00] that as you were talking about like heaven on Earth is like, that's the possibility that you imagine, like you, right?
You believe in that and then you seed that belief. And then, I mean, like, this is, this is manifestation not for the toxic manifestation girly culture, right? Like this is like right, like let's, like collectively manifest some shit, right? Like that's what you're talking about is like, and I'm getting all of lit up because it's like you believe that something's possible and your belief in that seeds its possibility.
And
Eva: Yeah.
Kyley: what a generous gift that you give us that you're like, no, I, I know this thing is possible and I'm gonna live according to it and I'm gonna feed that. I'm gonna nourish the seed of this possibility. And again, maybe I won't see it in my lifetime, but I'll see glimmers of it and I will have like left this possibility.
Like, I will have nurtured this possibility and then I will pass it on to the next generation. Like it will, maybe it'll be a [00:53:00] sapling instead of a little seed. And,
Eva: Yeah.
Yeah. But also because I feel like I, my life is so minuscule, like to the timeline of us being here on, we're so teeny, we're teeny, [00:54:00] we're so teeny, teeny, teeny tiny. Not even like the head of a pin. Do you know what I mean? In like, if we don't extinct ourselves, then, you know, essentially we are like, the possibilities, like of how long this whole ride to potential, like in like, I don't awakening of all, you know, that could take millions of years and, and so to expect that like it would happen now, you know, it just, it's, I'm, I'm so okay with it not happening now.
'cause I think I just love the spirit of humans, you know? I'm like, what is possible? I think we can all truly fucking awaken and like. Turn into even aliens or something and you fall into like aliens and like, I live this like really beautiful life that's so different. We'll look back on the past and be like, oh man, look at how barbaric that was.
You know, in 2026 when people were
Kyley: Yeah.
Eva: with guns. You know? I just think, anyway, I just
think there's a lot of
possibility.
Kyley: cracking out because I also have been like really reveling in [00:55:00] the past couple of weeks. How like tiny and insignificant I am in a way that I'm laughing that you and I are both like fucking weirdos giggling about how teeny tiny and in insignificant we are. But I have been feeling it from this place of like, well, to the point of like unlearning where white supremacy lives like.
White supremacy inside me wants me to be the fucking hero, right? Like my internalized white supremacy is like, move over everybody. I'm here to, like, Indiana Jones is here to solve the problem, right?
Eva: Yep. Yep. Yep.
Kyley: And like, no, I'm so tiny. I'm so tiny and I have something to contribute. And it's like my job to like give everything I've got to the thing that I have to contribute.
And also it's laughable that I would think it's like, you know, my destiny to change the course of the world. And also like it's my fucking job to give everything I've got to. It's like the, the deliciousness of both of those things. I have been feeling like really like liberating and I'm laughing that you are [00:56:00] also laughing about it.
Eva: Yes, yes, yes, yes. And also speaking again to like, it is the both and you know, it's both. And because at the same time it's what I'm also often contending with is like, uh, the feeling of like my insignificance and therefore, like understanding that time is infinite. Even like, it, it infinite. And so, you know, my, my, my brain can't even wrap my mind
around what that really means
while also feeling like. There like, well also there's urgency. There's
urgency at the same time, because people are fucking dying and crazy shit's happening. People can hear and also like what the things are with government are changing like so fucking fast. So it feels really urgent.
And again, the the both and.
Kyley: It's, and it's both and. Yes, exactly. It's like this has been going on forever and it's fucking go time, you know? Like you are, you are not the, you're not, you couldn't possibly solve this on your own. And also it can't get solved if you don't show [00:57:00] up,
Eva: Yeah. Yeah, exactly. And that's how important we are. At the same time, we're both, we're so insignificant and also that's how important we are. Like we all just do, we all just show up and do our part that creates this huge cataclysmic change that that changes everything. We all show up and do our part and it's, it's crazy.
It's wild. 'cause it's, it's like, well my brain's doing like the, like the weird
thing. 'cause it's like w wow, wow. It's both. It's both. And like our insignificant actions are actually so powerful. That's
Kyley: Yes,
Eva: I feel.
Yeah.
Kyley: yes, yes. And okay. Can we talk for a minute about magic for the collective?
Eva: Yes. Always.
Yes. I love it when Kyley wants to bring in magic.
Kyley: Because this has been like screaming through me lately, which is just like. We have been, I think there's a certain like cohort of humans who over the past, I don't know, 10 years or so, have [00:58:00] been like, fine tuning their magical spiritual gifts.
And, and I think a lot of that has been through the iteration of like personal healing, right? And like, or like, you know, facilitating individual healing for somebody else. And you know, we have like supercharged magic gifts and we have not yet. Except for maybe dabbling, but we have not yet, for the most part.
I know some people who do this and do this with great intention, but we have not yet like turned the full force of our like, magical spiritual gifts on the collective to create possibility for the collective. And it's like all of this personal healing has just been like the fucking, like warmup act. You know?
Like that's been the practice arena of like, oh, I can extract shame and like self-loathing from my own body. Great. Now do it for the body of the earth. Right? Like, oh, I can extract, like, you know, I can, I can heal the lineage of abuse that lives inside of me. Okay, great. Like, now do it [00:59:00] for like, you know, like the, the ancestral branch of American politics.
Like, I don't fucking know. Right. But it's like, it has been so. Strong for me in a way that it's like just getting stronger and stronger and stronger. So I wanna offer something that's just hit me as you were talking. It's like, oh, I think your job should you choose to accept, but like, I think your job, Eva, is what?
What if? What if instead of the doom scrolling or alongside it, you spend 15 minutes every day just like imagining the possibility of what you want and what you know is possible. But if that was your gift or you just like poured all of the supercharge power of your heart and your meditation practice and your connection to the earth and you just like poured that like into America right now and into like the possibility of what this land could become and [01:00:00] that was your gift.
Eva: I am, um, very moved. I am getting teared up for multiple reasons because I, I, I'm, I'm struck by how much, right in this moment I'm feeling like I, I I believe that that makes an impact. And also how I've forgotten,
you know, also, so multiple things are happening, which is like, let's just, just talking about the practice for a moment.
Like what a beautiful practice and to not, um, minimize that, you know, and say. You know, whatever. 'cause there's many ways that I might minimize that, but actually, like I could feel it, as you were saying, you know, the gift of this magic and act and that, that how powerful that is.
So I'm, and just like such a helpful reminder for me. And then also I think what I'm touched by and what I like so grateful for is like, then the magic that you are bringing. 'cause like this is also what you do is like you help remind people of their [01:01:00] magic and also what's possible and like different ways that we use our heart and our skills together to heal. It's like, and, and remembering that it's not all, I don't know it, it's the both and you know, it can be like sure, like call your senators, you know,
Kyley: Yeah.
Eva: and but also. Turn on your magic, turn
on your fucking magic is what I felt as you were speaking
that we're like, wait, it, it's like new technology. You know,
people talk about this. Yes. It's like this, you know, people talk. It's like there's this whole other branch of technology out here that like, I think is ready to get turned the fuck up, and, and I think I'm really excited about that, but I've also forgotten about it, and I'm also excited because I think this is also so much of what you bring to the table.
Kyley: Thank you.
Eva: Mm-hmm.
Kyley: you know, that line, you can't tear down the house, the master's house with the master's tools. I just all of a sudden saw that line in a [01:02:00] whole new way, which is like, yeah, because like, because you have all this new technology that has been not, has not been unleashed. Like I can feel, I can feel the energy of that being like, you haven't even understood that line until, you know, until now.
But um, but like, yeah, the idea that we change this current shit storm with exactly the tools that we've used to build it is, it's hilarious. Like, it's like actually laughable and I think seeds, that feeling of powerlessness, right? It's like, yes, like call your senators, right? Like cried on the voice note of both of my senators yesterday.
Like, do do those actions and. Fucking pray, do candle magic. Imagine like whatever your spiritual lineage and practice is, right? Mm-hmm. Like, um, like turn it towards possibility and like yeah. The, like the, the new technology. And it's funny that you're even saying that because I've had this vision for, well, actually probably specifically the [01:03:00] past like eight years, but when I think about like climate collapse, and I get this image of like, people just like sticking their hands in the earth.
And the message that comes through is like, you don't actually know what you're capable of. And so when you look at climate collapse and you think like, we can't save this. It's like, I can feel this almost laughing energy, not in a cruel way, but it's like, you can't save this with the tools that you have now, but you actually have no idea what your tools actually are, and you're all gonna stick your hands in the fucking earth and it's gonna change things.
And um, I have a, I have a good friend who's like. Um, like wildly intuitive and magical, but like just starting to really intentionally work with her gifts. And she shared with me recently that she always has this vision of sticking her hands in the earth. And I'm like, that's the, because you're gonna Yeah.
Yeah. I got, I couldn't even talk. I got like, yeah, I, I, because that's how we fix climate. We just stick our hands in the earth. I dunno what it means, but it's what happens.
Eva: you're like Desi right now. You're like, you're, you're like [01:04:00] 9-year-old. Kidding. So excited about something right now. Yes. Yes.
Kyley: Yeah, yeah,
Eva: Okay, so I'm so happy we're having this conversation. This is why. This is like the gift of, you know, having a spiritual podcast to
be able to bring in this in the midst of, you know, some things that feel completely devoid of spirituality, you know, like in a, in a ecosystem, in this political ecosystem, right.
That feels devoid of spirituality. Um, and I can tell you right now, can we just, can you just do a little bit of coaching for me please. 'cause
immediately what comes up for me is then I hear the red rhetoric of, like, earlier we were talking about the naval gazing piece, right? Like finding, you know, my practice of like really wanting to be the peace and love and whatever, whatever.
And dismantling like the police in myself and, and being afraid that that's too much namal gazing. And then what I'm hearing is like, I'm so moved by you reminding me of like the powers that we have in bringing our, turning the magic on. And then I like [01:05:00] see some, I don't know. Some person on social media poo-pooing, you know, over the new age.
Uh, folks being like, if you think that you're just gonna like, whatever, reiki this shit away. Like,
you know, you're delusional. Like, where are the spirit? You know,
basically some, you know, the
rhetoric about like spiritual people being new agey people, whatever being, um, clueless and avoidant and blah, blah, blah.
You know, it always goes back to my fear of being crazy or whatever. And I have the feeling. Yeah. The answer is like a, it's a both and thing. Right. But I just
wanna hear you
Kyley: many
Eva: something. Yes,
Kyley: of all, on some, it's just two parts. On some level, when I see that comment, I think, oh, you just don't know what magic is like, right? I see that comment and I think, oh, you just don't know what magic is and like no shade on you, like you don't know. Of course it seems fucking bonkers.
And I'm like, you stick your hands of the earth peel climate change, right? Like, of course that sounds fucking nuts. [01:06:00] And, and if you have never experienced magic, you're not in a, like, in a true embodied way. Yeah, that sounds fucking insane. So of course you're gonna stand there and say like, that is not it.
Like that ain't it. Go out and put your boots on the ground.
Eva: Mm-hmm.
Kyley: And, and I think there is some truth in that because we can be avoid, we get Absolutely. It's so delicious to be avoidant. Right. It's so tantalizing to be like, oh, I, you know, like I can't, you know, oh, I can't look 'cause I have to like keep my vibration pure, you know?
Right. Whatever. And like, and, and we've talked before how, like insidious how our spiritual practices can like be harm. Like we, they, they, they can get warped and distorted and easy, easily. So to your point, I think it is a yes and, and what I have found the more intentional I am being about, like, doing magic for a collective like, energy of possibility.
It's like I sit here and do [01:07:00] my practice. I may or may not have made a pact with a, uh, winter fay, uh, uh, a winter ferry to melt some ice. I don't know. No, no commitment on that. And like I do that practice. And then like, I feel like there's more possibility and then I act differently. Right? Like, like I have been like, you know, building like local community, you know, like, like, you know, um, intentionally about like ice and protecting our neighbors.
Like basically, basically a bunch of white moms in my neighbors neighborhood are getting together to be like, okay, what's our job? Right? And like, I come outta my spiritual practice around protecting people and like exercising this like, you know, toxicity from our country and our, and, and then I have more power in me.
I have more feelings of possibility to then go in, go and be like, okay, like who's like, yeah, tell, yeah, sign me up to go lobby my local [01:08:00] government about what their plan is to, right. It's like. The tell is in what comes on the other side, right? It's like the practice is clearly working because if nothing else, even if it's like total fucking Lala, I come out of that practice and then I'm like, yeah, great.
Sign me up to go lobby for
Eva: Yeah. You're like, let's fucking go.
Kyley: let's fucking go. Um, and without that spiritual practice, guess what? I feel fucking despair.
Eva: yeah,
yeah,
Kyley: I feel small and powerless. Um, and no fucking way, if you listen to this podcast, no fucking way you listen to our 90 minute podcast, because you're like plus or minus and whether like spirituality's real, you know, like, so there's also a sense of like, okay, well let's like put our money where our mouth is, right?
Or like, like, like let's put like if this is our value, if our value is in love, if our value is in like possibility and healing and generosity. Then like, [01:09:00] let's double down, let's like commit to like feeding that and nourishing that and not treating spirituality as like this like side project. 'cause you haven't been living it like it's a side project anyway.
So like bring it to the center in whatever way is true for you.
Eva: Yeah.
Kyley: Um, because we're not gonna get out of this mess by calling our senators like we have to call our senators, but like, we're not gonna fundamentally change the fabric of our country by calling our
Eva: The, yeah, I mean calling ma master tools, you know,
like, yes,
Like I love the direction that this, that this conversation is going because it really is like a reminder of like, oh, wait, yes. When we weave spirituality with our activism, you know,
and, and also any wait, I'm really taking away from what you're saying, which is so helpful, Kyley, so thank you so much.
But it's like reminding me of like, if my soul loves this, if I, if this is like, if I'm following my heart [01:10:00] and it just feels good, like true and good in my soul and my heart, like it can't be wrong. You know? Like I, I, I feel like that's, I have to trust love, you know, in this work. When I say trust, love of like what feels true in my heart that I think, uh, yeah, just what feels true in my heart and to not, and again, that's like so interesting because I actually think that's what capitalism does.
It's like it. Squelches and quenches whatever feels like big and alive and soulful in your heart, you know, and, and tells you that it's silly and it's, uh,
weak or whatever.
Kyley: survival. 'cause everything goes into survival and capitalism. Yes.
Eva: Yes. Yeah. Yes. And so it's just, again, a reminder of like, oh, seeing how it's so sneaky, you know, how like, how this tyrannical whatever system gets, like, gets in there and it is like love.
Yeah. Like this is the, the practice of love and belief and trust and magic and, and all of this. That these are the [01:11:00] tools that are actually gonna get us through the revolution. I'm so excited.
Kyley: Yeah. Yeah. And like what if, you know how many times I've shared on the podcast a million times this line that Spirit gives me, which is like, it's never what you think it is. You know, I'll have these big breakthrough moments or this like, you know, arrival at the shore that I was, you know, fairing my little boat tours.
And it always looks different than I thought it did. And it's always like, it's always different than, you know, it's, it's never what you think it is. And what if that is true here, right? We have this feeling of like, revolution and we have this feeling of like, I, I don't know. What if the revolution is not.
I don't want this to sound Pollyanna-ish, but like, what if the revolution is not fought with guns? What if the revolution, what if the, like what if the like seismic shift that's happening is that we remember like there's this like awakening to our fucking power. And part of that awakening to our power is like, wait, our community is strong.
Like when I look at what's happening in Minneapolis, like, I mean, I just bow [01:12:00] down to them because they're just like, fuck no, our community is stronger than you assholes. Right? Like, and so there's this like feeling of remembering how powerful we are and all these different layer layers and, and, and, and I just can't help but feel like that's our job in this moment, you know, is to like remember how powerful we are and if we are spiritual beings and if we are like live our life with the spiritual curiosity, then like that is the seat of our power and, and we like, and what becomes possible when we just like bring that in.
Unlock that even more about like, you know, I've, for me, it's interesting, I've had this feeling come over me multiple times. It happened in COVID, it happened when Roe v Wade was overturned. Like a specific moment where I can remember both times I was actually like doing like a Facebook Live interestingly, or like a, or like a webinar or something.
And I had this, and I, I have been feeling it [01:13:00] lately too, this feeling just like washes over me where there's this crystal clarity that's like, this is why we fucking came here. And I can just feel it in my bones. Like, this is why we fucking came here. And so like, stand up, show up, like whatever that looks like for you.
'cause it's gonna look different for everybody. But like, this is it. Like this is what you came here for. And, and, and I, again, I don't even fully know what that means, right? In the way that you get this like, full body spiritual like experience. It's like I don't even fully know what that means. And also like.
If you are listening to this, like, this is what you fucking came here for, and that means you are an agent of possibility and love, you know?
Eva: Yes. Okay. Well, I Snap, snap, snap, snap snaps to all of this. I mean, I think I'm so, again, cannot stress enough how happy I am that we're having this conversation. 'cause it really is shifting me, you know, from a place of like remembering my power. Um, confu, you know, [01:14:00] from confusion and overwhelm, which is like, it's almost like simple, you know, just
remembering my power, but remem and, and I think that is when you're like, I don't know what that even means.
I think that's what we're all here on the journey of also
finding out. But I think it's like for peer are, is the blueprint really that we're laying out already? It's like really like. Trust, whatever it is that your magic is, trust it. Like we come back to this time and time again. And I think that's okay.
'cause I think I need the reminder time and time again. It's like trusting whatever like it is that your soul is it and is, you know, pulling towards and like what you believe in and what lights you up and not, and unsubscribing from the negative scarcity dialogue that I think benefits the system of like, it's not enough or you're, or you're being silly or even what you were saying, you know, you, you saying like, you know, I don't mean to be pollyannish.
Like the fact that we feel like we need to do that because somehow the thing that we believe is, is too silly or [01:15:00] idyllic or not realistic. You know what I mean? And I think there's this like power here that we can all, and I think I'm still figuring out what that means, you know? I am for sure. I'm figuring out what that means and it's.
But I think I am, I'm excited actually. You know, committing, continuing to commit to it instead of like the giving up and
feeling. Yeah. The giving instead of the giving up. Yes.
Kyley: I think when we get, when we give our, when we get like access to this and doses of this, whether it's from like this con 'cause I am also feeling exactly what you're speaking to of like possibility and all these things. It's like, whether it's these conversations or the media that we're listening to or like the community, you know, in person, community that we're forming or whatever it is.
I think it then gives us like a deeper well with which to engage with the horrors, right? Like, you know, like I'm in this moment thinking about like the reports we're getting about the, the detention where these children are being held and like that shit is not good. Like, right. We like that shit is not good.
[01:16:00] And when I don't feel like I have access to power, it's really hard for me to look at that. Right. But when I can touch something that's bigger than me and gives me the sense of possibility and agency, then I can go look at these stories, not for hours and hours to the point that I'm a haha, but I can go like, look at the story and like, like
Eva: Not turn away.
Kyley: and not turn away.
And I think that's what we talk about, like not wanting to turn away, but it's like the difference is like we can do the, not turning away like we're watching a fucking train wreck or like a horror show, you know, clockwork Orange style. Or we can do the not turn away that's like, oh my God, I love you children and you deserve so much more and I am like pouring into you like you deserve more than this.
And then I can call my fucking senators and say that, right? And all of that, like the thing that feeds all that for me is. My like spiritual truth and if I'm disconnected from my spiritual truth, then I like see the [01:17:00] stories and I'm like numb and overwhelmed and then I'm like scared and then I don't make a phone call and then I'm bitchy to my kids and that, you know, it's like,
Eva: Totally. Yes, 100%. I, I wanna keep this line close to my heart. 'cause I think it, it's, this is the work. I think for me, it's like staying connected to my spiritual truths gives me the resources to not look away, you know,
to let the heartbreak happen, to let it in and then be, and then how all of that compliments each other actually.
Because then I can be a force of power. Like, I think being a resource is really, really important. And I agree with you that for me being, I mean, there's a lot of things that resource me, but like at the core, it is really being connected to like my spiritual truths and not for, and for me also, like, not downplaying them or denying them or thinking that they're irrelevant or something.
They're the, they're the everything. They're like the core of it.
So I, 'cause I have, I know, I, 'cause I can tell you I have felt the opposite where I don't feel resourced and then my heart closes.
And that's [01:18:00] also painful. Like,
it's just painful in a different way. It's
shitty. I don't like it. Yeah,
Kyley: yes, yes. A thousand percent. And also you can't collect it selectively numb, right? So your heart closes and
Eva: Yeah,
Kyley: it's clo, it's, it's also closed to like the person working at the corner store
Eva: Totally. Yes. Exactly. Yep.
Kyley: Yes.
Eva: Woo. What a ride. One that I'm so grateful for and, um, yeah, if happy to have, continue this conversation in different ways as, as things continue to unfold, as we have like, what, another three and a half years with this administration. I don't know.
Kyley: Well, I wanna name two. I wanna name two things, um, for listeners. One is, if you are listening to this and you're like, wait, I wanna do magic for the collective, like please just DM me. Like my dms are open for people who wanna like chitchat about how to like do magic in a way that fucks up ice protect [01:19:00] children.
Like whatever the thing is, like, I will help you craft a spell with so much delicious pleasure. So like, please, if you were listening to this and you're like, wait, how, um, I mean, there's a ton of resources, but I just
Eva: is Kyley's Jam.
Kyley: I, my door is open. Someone messaged me the other day and was like, Hey, I have a question for you about which crafts.
I was like, yes,
Eva: I've arrived,
Kyley: yes, yes. And then the second thing that I wanna name is I have this vision and this conversation is really confirming it for me. But I've had this vision of creating a free community for that's essentially, um. A church-like experience for people who are spiritual but not religious because we need fortitude right now and we need an opportunity to, especially like if you were listening, you were probably one of the people who does all the holding in your life.
And so like where are you being held? And in my last, our last episode, like Kyley's Catholic again, question [01:20:00] mark. I talked about the experience of being like going to mass and getting held and how like fortifying that has been. And I just had this really strong vision the other day about creating that for us.
And this is really deepening that. So I don't know that I will have the like sign up,
Eva: love of that
Kyley: I know it's gonna be so great.
Eva: basically like if you find this conversation helpful, you know, I think I'm like, this is, this is like my church
sometimes, you know?
Kyley: Yes,
Eva: And to fortify those spiritual beliefs in these times. 'cause it turns out it's really helpful. I think it's what, if you're listening to this podcast, it's what you need.
Kyley: So we're gonna do readings, we'll do, um, we'll do like, uh, I don't know, I guess I'll give a sermon. We'll do some kind of guided meditation or healing or reiki and I'm, I'm still piecing all, piecing it together and it will shift and evolve and it won't be me doing all the talking. [01:21:00] Um, but e eventually I'd like to do it more when I'm gonna start doing it once a month.
Um, and it's gonna be free. Like we just need, you know, it's like, this is again, this feeling of like, there's things I can do and so I'm gonna do the things I can do. So, um, this release is tomorrow, so I'm not gonna have a signup page for people. But if you're listening and you want, like, just shoot me a DM and I'll get you on the list so that when it's ready you can come join our church experience or spiritual, but not religious.
I need a sexier name for it.
Eva: Well, that could be the tagline, but
yeah, you come up with a name. But I do, you know, I've always, I've always loved the whole, yeah. Anyway, I think there's. A definite need for people who are, you know, spiritual but not religious
Kyley: To be held in community because we do it alone or we do it in places where we like pay for classes, which is amazing. Like where it's fucking great, but there aren't, we don't have a lot of spaces, I think where we can go and just be community. So that's what this will be. So,
Eva: Yeah,
Kyley: um,
Eva: I think that's gonna be so amazing.
Kyley: yeah,
Eva: Yeah. I [01:22:00] mean, if I can sign up, I will. If I'm time zone wise, it all
works out where, depending on where I am in the world.
Kyley: Right. Always the question.
Eva: Yeah. Oh my
Um, I think I would like, okay. So I'm just gonna say, say something that's alive for me. I don't think, I think we're like, I'm happy with where we are in
our episode, so we don't have that on. But I do wanna talk more about like, maybe, I don't know if, where it might show up, but this idea of like the power belonging to the people and also that like, we have the power to change this all, you know, like it's, I really do feel like the, I don't know, whatever, this is just the youth, like the Trumpers are just like, I was really, really small, a small minority and like majority of the people I think are good.
And I think that like there's this revolution that's possible and I just wanna think about like, what. I don't know. I don't know what that looks like, but I like thinking and imagining and playing. You know, it's kind of like that episode that we had once about like the new Earth. You remember we had a whole conversation about like, what does the new earth look
like? Do you remember [01:23:00] that?
Kyley: Yeah. Yeah,
Eva: long time ago. But it was like a really fun conversation, and I remember it being really powerful for the both of us. And something along the lines of like maybe for a future episode of like, you know, what does the new earth look like to us now?
Kyley: Okay. Uh, to the point of people being good, one of the things that I've been thinking about a lot is the fawn response and how much goodness is, like, the power of goodness is minimized because of our internalized, fond response and how much like the systems in power rely on that. Um.
Eva: know what, I'm not sure I understand what you mean. Like
Kyley: Like people are good and, um, the, like we, most of us who are good people have this like, deeply internalized, fond response, right?
That's like on some level, like, oh, don't shake the boat. Or like, you know, like, don't follow the rules 'cause it's the rules, that kind of thing. And like, if you look at what's happening in Minnesota, for [01:24:00] example, like people are like, like actively stepping outside of that and to speak like truth to power requires you, I think actually this is perhaps specifically true of like white people actually.
And like thinking about how like white women in particular have like a very strong fond response, right? Of just like, oh, like I will stay safe by like, going along with this patriarchal authority system. Um, and how like, actually. Actually rupturing this requires us our goodness to be unhooked from like the fawning smallness and like allowing our goodness, allowing ourselves to let our goodness be disruptive.
Eva: Mm. Mm-hmm.
Yes.
Kyley: And like figuring out what that means and what that looks like, and like moving through the edge of how that's uncomfortable or scary. Um,
Eva: that. I mean, yeah. [01:25:00] Allowing your goodness to be disruptive,
I think. Yeah.
Like, even saying that like, it's like, I think we don't, it's a new paradigm. It's like, what does that look like? We how,
'cause for some people, they, yeah, they, they just associate good with, it's
not disruptive.
Kyley: Okay. Should we do joy?
Eva: yes. Now that we've had that beautiful conversation where I am feeling a lot more joy, I think this is a wonderful opportunity to talk about joy, because, oh, I have a fun, I have a few fun things that I wanna share.
Actually, if I, you don't mind, I'm gonna get
started.
Kyley: Yeah.
Eva: On a more practical note, this is kind of like a joy, but it's also just like a, Hey, if you need this, I just wanna let you guys know that there's this helpful thing called Tangle news. I was talking earlier about how, what's daunting to me sometimes I don't even know what's true anymore, know?
'cause there's so much like fake news and blah, blah, all that stuff and that, and it's like this. Sometimes I feel crazy 'cause I'm like, what the fuck is even reality? And, you know, and anyway, I, I first heard about it on this American life, but it's this guy who has started a newsletter [01:26:00] where he takes both sides. Like the, he's, I think he really tries to just be like, uh, give the facts. Well, to start off with, he tries to give the facts and also tries to be, what do you call it when you're just like more in the middle,
Kyley: Mm-hmm.
Eva: like Impartial.
And he like gets the stories from all like the, you know. Conservative side and like the liberal side and like, you know, he'll about like, let's say this like recent shooting or something, right?
And he'll take what they're saying and like from the newspapers and the news and whatever, and then compile it all together, which is also, which is just so interesting to see them together. And then he sort of gives his take, and this guy is a real journalist. He's been doing this for years, but he just got so sick of like, how, how fucked up I think our new systems are recently, and how everything's really, you know, biased that he wanted to, you know, sort of offer something different.
And then he'll give like his take, which I just find so refreshing [01:27:00] because it's just like a, it feels like a really trusted news source in this insane world right now. And. He says, and I know it's, I think it's good for me because he says things that rub me the wrong way sometimes, which I think is good for me to read, you know, because I don't just like reading like the New York Times where I just feel like I'm just
also getting
Kyley: actually trash now,
Eva: Exactly. It's complete trash, you know what I mean? That's what I mean. Like I hate, I Yeah, exactly. It's complete trash and, but it is just like, anyway, I, this is a very long-winded thing, but I just wanna say for people who are confused about where to get your fucking news, I highly recommend checking out Tangle News.
It's free and you, it's just a newsletter and you, you subscribe to it and it's fucking awesome.
So
Kyley: love that. Okay, great.
Eva: thing. Yeah. The second fun thing is I got my titty pierced, which I have, I have mentioned it to you, but I, I mean, barely talked about it,
Kyley: Yes.
Eva: really fun. Okay, so,
Kyley: Tell a story please.
Eva: okay, I, to be clear, I'm not ever, I'm not like [01:28:00] into titty, pieing actually. Um, but what happened was, I, so I have like an one like nor quote unquote normal nipple and one inverted nipple. And that's always been the case. And it doesn't really, it, it's not, I've always had it, so it isn't, it's not something that's something I really thought about, but my mom, okay, this is like such a long story.
Do we, hold on. Sorry. Um,
Kyley: Yes, we want, we want all the juicy GOs about your nipple.
Eva: it's just like, basically my mom's in this phase where she's like, you know, really wants to take care of herself better, which I actually think props to her because for a long time she really neglected her whole body 'cause of the alcoholism thing.
And so now she's like, I, she wanted me to take her to go get Botox and she has this place where she goes, does like plastic, it's like a plastic surgery place essentially, which is super common in Taiwan. Asia is, you know, all about that plastic surgery life. And so what if she got some like Botox? She did something to her eyes. And as we're there, she's like, oh yeah, you know, this doctor could also do something for your nipple. And she was [01:29:00] like, and then she told me, she's like, oh, I also had an invert inverted nipple when I was younger, but your grandma took me to go like, whatever. She did something to it. And I was like, what? I didn't know.
Like this was a, maybe it was a genetic thing. And she was like, yeah. I was like, super easy. Whatever. Do you wanna get it done? And in Asia, the thing that I love about Asia is the medical systems just a lot more lax. Like in America, you have to like, make appointments. It takes forever. There's all this bureaucracy, whatever.
And this, I was with my mom and the doctor was there and she's like, yeah, do you wanna do it? I can do it for you right now. And, and so, and it's also like affordable, right? So
there, I guess there's like a, like a quick operation type thing that you can do for this nipple. But then she was, she looked at my nip and she was like, actually, I think you would benefit more from getting a piercing because a piercing like. You know, it like basically keep, you wear it for like six months to a year and it just like keeps your nipple in place.
Kyley: Uh huh.
Eva: don't know if this is too much detail,
Kyley: No. No.
Eva: people. And so she's like, you already have a bunch of piercings in your face. Like why don't you just get one more nipple piercing?
And I was [01:30:00] like, so spur of the moment and I was like, okay.
So
Kyley: will you keep it forever or will you just keep it for a year or,
Eva: I'm not sure yet. Actually, I think I can't, I mean, I might come to like love it and then I might not wanna take it out. But I will say the problem with, I'm not a spontaneous decis decision maker. This was like
very out character for me. It was more like my mom was like, just do it. And then the doctor was like, yeah, I'll just do it, you know?
And I was like, okay. He was like, he was like so spontaneous. But this is the problem why my Capricorn self doesn't like spontaneity, because I'm like, oh, I forgot about the fact that piercing snag.
Kyley: Oh,
Eva: Like, and there's aftercare and there's all these fucking things I didn't freaking consider and piercings can kind of be a pain in the ass.
And uh, you know, I never have snagged any of my facial piercings, but my, my
nipple feels a little bit scarier. Like,
I guess I'm just a little bit nervous [01:31:00] about that snagging on something.
So if I were to take it out, it'd be for that reason. But I do think it's really cute. I'm not gonna lie. I like looking at my boobs more now.
Kyley: I love that for you. That's so fun.
Eva: Yeah, so that's my long joy story for this week.
Kyley: I love these.
Eva: I just can't believe I just told the whole internet that I have my view pierced, but
Kyley: I love it.
Eva: fun. Okay. Kyley, what is something that's bringing you joy?
Kyley: Um, okay, two things. Um. I, I will say again, I shared about this book before as a joy, I think, and I'm gonna share it again 'cause it's sitting next to me and Harriet Tubman's yelling at me. But, um, I'm reading this book, the Spirit of Harriet Tubman by Spring Washam and I'm reading it slowly as you can gather.
'cause if you listen to last time I mentioned it was a while ago, but I sometimes do that with like spiritual books. 'cause I feel like each, each bite is like its own like thing to digest Right. But, um, [01:32:00] it's very fortifying for the moment that we're in, you know, and for like, to the point of this conversation, I think that's specifically why I'm bringing it up now is like to the point of this conversation of like our spirituality, like is liberator is like connected to like liberation and liberatory work and this like legacy of, um.
Liberation work that is spiritual and material like nobody nails that better than fucking Harriet Tubman.
Eva: Mm. Mm-hmm.
Kyley: And so this book, spring Washam, who's a guest, oh, guest on our podcast from many years ago, um, wrote this book essentially by like channeling the spirit of Harriet Tubman and having these like really intensive experiences of like trans channeling and writing with Harriet.
And that she writes this book. And so if you need some, first of all, if you just ever felt a connection to Harriet Tubman then on that, this is a good time to like nourish that. And actually just thinking about this moment that we are in and the, and our ancestors, right? [01:33:00] Like, and Harriet Tubman is our, is our American ancestor.
Uh, right? So if you like, think about, you might do ancestor veneration, like Harriet Tubman is our ancestor, and so she's someone we can connect to around like, okay, show me what my role is in this liberation, right? Like, show me how to be connected, show me my assignment, whatever that case may be. Um, and it just feels like very, it feels very fortifying for no.
Like,
Eva: Mm-hmm.
Kyley: I can come up with of just like, yeah, like you, you know, you signed up
Eva: I mean, she, yeah, and
she, yeah. From someone who's shown us how it's done, you know? Yeah.
Kyley: Yeah, exactly. And also like every time I read about her, I'm just like, okay, if Harriet fucking Tubman could do what she did, like we can, we can, we can make fuck, we can make waves. We can fuck it up in a good way, you know? So I love this book and I recommend it, but even broader too, I just wanna like bring like the joy of reading things that give you a sense of possibility right now.
Right? Even like, even if [01:34:00] it's like, you know, girls who fight, you know, with dragons against patriarchy, you know, like whatever it is that gives like reading material that gives you a sense of possibility, like, do that. But then the other, the other joy is snow. We had so much fucking snow right now. My kids had two snow days in a row, which was very exciting for them.
There's so much snow that I can't open my back door.
Eva: Oh, wow. Yeah, there was like a crazy storm that's gone through like
all of the East
Kyley: Yeah. The whole, yeah, the whole East Coast. And
Eva: Oh, so how, yeah. How was that for you?
Kyley: it was so fun. It was so fun. I mean, we just like snuggled up and played games and I did a bunch of baking and, um, you know, yes. Yesterday I got stir crazy and I was like, okay, I'm leaving somebody come leave the house with me 'cause I'm leaving.
'cause I, you know, it's been been four days, but, um, yeah, it was just like, I love, I love, I love a snowy winter day. You [01:35:00] know, my problem with winter is like, I get done with it before it's done with us, but like
Eva: But when it's good like this, when it's cozy and fun and
you get to, yeah, actually enjoy the snow before it gets all slushy
and gross and gray. Yeah. Then it's awesome.
Kyley: And my kids were really like funny in the snow and, um, yeah. So Snow Winter vibes and Harriet Tubman are bringing me joy.
Eva: Woo-hoo. Love it. All right, Kyley, how you feeling?
Kyley: I'm feeling grateful and in love with you. Thank you,
Eva: I love you too, and I love all you listeners. Thank you so much for being here. We hope it's helpful. If this is helpful, we'll share it with a friend. Subscribe. If you're not already subscribing, do all the things and we'll see you next week.