This week, dharma teacher Cara Lai joins us on the show to explore the misunderstood power of yin (or feminine) energy—and what it really means to do less without abandoning yourself. We cover rest, rage, spiritual bypassing, chronic illness, and the sacred art of screaming in the woods and putting our boulders down. Also: why Ali Wong is the medicine for us all.
This week, dharma teacher Cara Lai joins us on the show to explore the misunderstood power of yin (or feminine) energy—and what it really means to do less without abandoning yourself.
We cover rest, rage, spiritual bypassing, chronic illness, and the sacred art of screaming in the woods and putting our boulders down.
Also: why Ali Wong is the medicine for us all.
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Eva - Okay. Hello, universe Familia. It's Eva here and we have a treat for you this week. This conversation with Carly was one of those conversations that reminded me. What it is to be connected to myself and my humanity and my body as a woman. And by the end of the conversation, Kylie and I were just so lit up.
Um, there's so many things I wanna say about Cara to introduce you to this episode. I'll start by saying that she's a Dharma teacher. Um, and I think just from her life experience and from her experiences as through, you know, self-inquiry and meditation, she has a way of about speaking about the human experience.
That is so relatable and so humbling. And she's funny, like she's funny and, and goofy and but also so thoughtful and articulate about, about like the ridiculous things that we experience as a human and the difficult things that we experience as a human. Um, in this episode where we kind of went, 'cause what felt alive for us at the time was, um, diving into.
Feminine energy. But I think, you know, that's oftentimes explored. But I feel like, again, Kara has a way of talking about things that helps, I will say me anyway, understand things from a different angle or in a more in depth kind of way. We talk about, you know, being a, what it is to feel rage as a woman and, and if you ever have anger stuck in your belly or in your throat, um.
Which is something I relate to that comes up in the show and we talk about, you know, what it means to really be what strength really looks like, which I think is often misinterpreted and, uh, so many more things. Well, you'll have to listen. It doesn't even really matter what we talked about, I think. I think it's really just about the experience of being, um, in the space of people who are so.
Passionate about exploring the human experience and wanting to offer perspective that brings us back to ourselves and back to peace and back to the truth. So I. That's this week episode. But before we start, I also want to just give a little shout out to some other episodes that Kara has been on, um, on different podcasts, because that's how I had originally found her.
She was on the 10% Happier Podcast, which some of you may know. You know, it's a pretty big. Meditation sports, like, I don't know if they'd call it a spirituality podcast, but definitely, you know, focused on meditation. And Cara was on that show talking about getting ready to go on a one year solo silent meditation retreat by herself.
And as a meditator myself, I was like, whoa, that is super badass. I was very. Impressed and enamored with that idea. But she was so funny talking about it. I was just like, this girl is super down to earth and really silly. And um, I got really curious about her journey. I mean, a year long by yourself, you know, like, that's huge.
And I was like, anyone who's willing to do that is really, I think, brave enough to be with themselves. And well, that's what I think Cara discovered for herself because then afterwards she went on the show, after the year long retreat, she went back on the 10% hello, uh, on the 10% Happier podcast, and shared that experience.
And it was just like such a raw, intimate, honest conversation about that whole thing. And that was just such a good listen. That when I had heard it, I, I messaged Kara, I was like, I would love to have you on the show. Just 'cause I loved the way that she spoke about her experience and how funny she was. I really gravitated towards that.
And then, you know, we never heard from her because, you know, people be busy. And then out of the blue, like years later, I think I messaged her like maybe two years ago, and out of the blue she comes back in and she's like, yes, I'd love to be on your podcast. And I was so thrilled, so surprised, so pleasantly surprised.
And then. We were able to record this conversation. So, um, as you can tell, I am just really excited and it was just as wonderful as I thought it was gonna be, and I hope you all really enjoy. I.
Kyley: [00:00:00] Cara, we are so excited to have you on the show. Thank you so much for being here. Thanks for having me.
Kyley: It's delightful. Yeah. So before we officially started recording, we talked about all the different ways we could go today and there's a, a rich menu, but it, what we can, what we're talking about a lot before we hit record is this theme of the power of the feminine and what it means and what it means to settle into it.
Kyley: And before we go deeper into how we can have more access to this idea of the power of the feminine, I would love it if you could actually explain a little bit about what it is so then we can start thinking about how to live, live within it and live within it.
Cara: Yeah. Thanks. That's a really important question.
Cara: I think it's important, first of all to say that it's not about like if you're a woman or you identify as a woman, then you understand this or that you have this. And if you're a man that you don't, it's, [00:01:00] and it's just a yin y yang thing. And everybody has both yin and yang. And one metaphor I like to use to explain what I think about when I think about masculine and feminine is a hand.
Cara: And so a hand has a quality of yang and yin, so it can, the yang side would be like, it can do things and manipulate things and poke and prod and, um. That's, that's more of the doing yang masculine manipulation. Not manipulation in a negative way, but just it can do stuff in the world and make things happen, uh, in a overt way.
Cara: But a hand can also simply feel and receive and get soft and hold. And that's more of the feminine side of the hand. And you can't have one without the other. They're both coexisting within the one hand. They're just [00:02:00] two different qualities that actually need each other. 'cause you can't do anything if you can't feel anything with your hand, you know?
Cara: So it's, there are these two different energies that are part of everything. Every being, every life. Every non-living thing has both of these qualities and the feminine, what, what I'm calling the feminine. We don't have to call it that. It could be just, we could just call it Ian if feminine feels too charged.
Cara: But that side of things tends to just be more, um, passive and still and receptive. At least those are the words that I would use to describe it versus the yang that is more active doing. Um. Maybe actively creative or, [00:03:00] uh, addressing problems in an overt way or just addressing creativity in an overt way.
Cara: Mm-hmm.
Eva: Well, I think something that we had discussed earlier is that how the masculine or the yang is an energy that I think is just, uh, in our society, in our culture, more dominant, more celebrated, more considered bright, or, you know, becomes integrated in us. I think very much through education and work that, that, that, that yang energy is, um, just so dominant.
Eva: And I'm curious to know, 'cause your journey, I think you're saying, has been coming back into more of the yin and the feminine. And I'm curious what parts of your life have taught you that or maybe currently teaching you that? Yeah.
Cara: Well, you know, I grew up [00:04:00] with an older brother and a younger brother, so I was sandwiched between the masculine.
Cara: Um, and I also grew up with a mother who was really, uh, I guess you would call her a feminist, and just had a, had a lot of, um, back story in her life where. Some of the men in her life, her dad and probably her dad's dad, were just, um, violent and maybe not so much physically violent, but problematic for the family in a lot of ways that, um, really impacted her and then impacted her view of the world, of the whole world.
Cara: And, um, so she kind of taught me [00:05:00] how to stand up for myself and, and pointed out the injustices that women have to face in the world.
Eva: Mm-hmm.
Cara: And, uh, I have had to work with some of the pain that she's carried in my own life, in my own relationship with my husband. Um, and when I started meditating, I, it became abundantly taken on a lot of masculine values unwittingly and had been living my life in a way that, uh, was really forceful and pushy towards myself and, um, outta balance and not respecting my own feminine side.
Cara: And I think the technique that my mom and a lot of women [00:06:00] have used to get out of a situation where their feminine side has been suppressed or they've been suppressed in a, in a patriarchal world, has been to like, use masculine energy to get out of that situation. Mm-hmm. And, and prioritize like the anger that they feel over, for example, like the grief or the feeling of helplessness that, that they might feel.
Cara: And, and I offer compassion, which I think just sitting and offering one self-compassion is a healing thing that doesn't get prioritized in a world that's really patriarchal. And the, the move is more, the move that's more encouraged is to get mad ex at someone outside of you and the, and that get mad at the world for being the way it is when what's really needed to move [00:07:00] forward is coming in and listening to ourselves and grieving what isn't the way we want it to be, and holding ourselves in the pain that we're in.
Cara: And that's a much more feminine approach. Mm-hmm. Yeah.
Kyley: Can I ask a que Oh, were you gonna say something Eva? Go ahead. Go ahead. Okay. So I just wrote down this line, compassion doesn't get prioritized in a world that's patriarchal. I just love that. That's a really profound line. Uh, I wanted to, I wanted to ask you a question about the intersection here of, of power, because one of the things that I observe is how many women especially really struggle with, like, taking powerful action, right?
Kyley: Taking up space, like being impactful, letting their voice be heard. And, and, and I think there's this like, twisted version of passivity that's [00:08:00] associated with femininity. That's like you, you used the word, when you're talking about yin feminine energy, you used the word passive and, and I felt the resonance of the way that you mean it, which is different than the way I am also using.
Kyley: Right? Same word. But I think it means two different things. And I think there's this way that I think a lot of women, like, you know, a lot of my clients, for example, are these brilliant women who have these incredible gifts and um, uh, they're struggling to like say what they have to say and invite people to hire them and like actually take up space with their sacred work, right?
Kyley: And, and there's this power that eventually they feel coming in that allows them to, to.
Kyley: To be big and to be powerful in a way that is an answer to that kind of small twist that I just, I don't have any agency here. I'm just kind of the victim I don't have. So this kind of like feminine passivity that's [00:09:00] small and painful. And so could you kind of elaborate on, I think there are two part question here actually what you mean when you speak to passive.
Kyley: 'cause I do think there's a different resonance there. And then also what does it mean to be full of power and to like make an impact and allow impact to come through you with, with this more yin energy? Do those two questions make sense? Can you say the second part of that question? Yeah, and maybe I could ask them one at a time, but I like to just, you know, you can do it all.
Kyley: So the second question is really thinking about, you know, I find again and again like. This well of power that lives in me and the more I trust this, what we're calling feminine kind of yian energy, the deeper that power is. And it's different than the kind of graspy yang. I, I gotta, I gotta go push, push, push energy.
Kyley: But it's not [00:10:00] small, it's not meek, it's big, but it does have a different resonance to it than what we might think of as like, I have an action plan and I'm gonna execute. Right. And so I think I'm,
Eva: I mean, I, I'm just gonna interrupt 'cause I think like a really simple way of putting it. You, and I love this question, Kylie, is like, what does it mean to be powerful in yin energy?
Eva: 'cause I don't Does that Thank you. Yeah. What does it mean? Thank you for taking my
Kyley: five minute marathon
Eva: memo. And I think that's a very valid question. 'cause I think sometimes to what you are speaking to Cara is that people assume that yin energy is isn't powerful and that it's weak somehow. And that, and that's a distortion I think that you're speaking to.
Cara: Yeah, yeah. Well, so the first image that comes to mind with both of these questions is a tree, like maybe a big tree. And a tree has to move when it blow, when the wind blows, because that's. You know, if it does, if it's just [00:11:00] totally not moving, it could break or something. I don't know what would happen. But they, they've evolved to be able to move with the wind, and that's sort of their yin ness, is they, they move and yet they are very deeply rooted and they're not actually gonna like, you know, be blown over because of how deep their roots are.
Cara: And to me, that is the balance of yin and yang. You know, there's like this deeply rooted strength there that's paired with this ability to move with things, um, that are not in the tree's control. And that's kind of what we are going for. W with the, the word pa, what's, that's what I think about with the word passive is we are not fighting with the things that we cannot control.
Cara: And we're aware we're, we're more attuned to what we can and cannot do something [00:12:00] about. It's not that we're never doing anything, it's that we are more attuned to what something is that could be, sorry, let me start that sentence over. It's that we're more attuned to what's within our scope of control and what is needed.
Cara: To be done something about. And with the things that we can't control, we don't tune out or just let ourselves be bowled over. We let it be felt completely and we, we stay present and we learn whatever there is to be learned from that experience as it moves through us and it impacts us. So we're fully present for all of it.
Cara: And as a result of that, we're actually more capable of doing something when the time comes because we haven't been [00:13:00] expending a lot of energy towards trying to change and constantly do something about things that we cannot change or do anything about. Mm-hmm.
Kyley: I am obsessed with this language and, um, I did this really beautiful image as you were speaking.
Kyley: I kept thinking about water and I was thinking about how like water flows through the path of least resistance, right? So there's a giant boulder in the middle of the stream. The water's gonna just flow, gonna like, just inherently flow around it, rather than try to just hammer away. And I just like, I can't, the wall whole water, all the water has to stop 'cause we have to move this boulder.
Kyley: No, the water just goes around it, right? So that the water gets to keep being in flow and also. When you were speaking to like, if something can't be moved, what we do is we have to feel it fully. And I was just thinking about the caress of the water against the rock and how over time, sometimes in big ways and sometimes in subtle ways, the [00:14:00] rock changes shape the rock.
Kyley: Eventually the rock will be gone because the water just keeps gently letting itself feel the edge of the rock. Feel the edge of the rock.
Cara: Yeah. And the, actually, I'm really glad that you talked about that metaphor because there's another boulder metaphor, not to confuse people, but this is like my favorite.
Cara: This has been my favorite and most valuable teaching that I've heard in my practice. It came from, um, a Thai forest master named Aja Cha, who lived not, not that long ago, I think he died maybe a couple decades ago, but he was walking with some of his monks and they passed a big boulder and he asked his monks, um, is that boulder heavy?
Cara: And they said, uh, yeah, that's a heavy boulder. And Aja Cha said, well, not if you don't try to pick it up.[00:15:00]
Eva: Wow. I just had an image of all the boulders I've tried to pick up in my life thinking that that was like strength and trying to like force it and be like, oh, I'm just gonna pick up this big boulder and see how tough I am. And I was like, well, I could also just. Not pick it up. Right,
Cara: right. Yeah. And then, and then when we don't pick the boulder up, there's, there's just stuff that we usually encounter that we've been avoiding by trying to pick up a lot of boulders.
Cara: You know, it's like, okay, well what happens if I don't try to fight with this thing that I've been trying to get rid of or trying to change for so long? What, what even is it, what even is this thing? Because there's something happening right now that I don't want to feel that maybe I don't think that I can handle, and that feels intolerable for me to, to coexist with.
Cara: But, um, I've been trying to do stuff [00:16:00] either in myself or in the world, which has all been coming from this place of not trusting myself to be able to handle life or handle the world. And what if actually I could just be with this feeling?
Eva: Mm-hmm.
Kyley: Mm-hmm. Yes. Always. Yes. I, I have a question. Can I ask a question of the group, which is, what are the boulders that you have a tendency to pick up and then find her heavy?
Kyley: Like, what have you been finding yourself like? Yeah. Oh, it's this boulder. I picked it up again. It's still fucking heavy.
Eva: Oh my God. That I love that question.,
Cara: Uh, the two things that. Feel predominant for me with this one are physical feelings in my body because I am always working with having Lyme disease and it's usually pretty [00:17:00] uncomfortable to be in my body and I can watch my mind just trying to fight with it and how much worse that makes it.
Cara: Hmm. And if I can just open to stuff in my body feeling twisted or outta place or just not, well, it's so much easier. It's just immediately easier. Hmm. And such a relief too that it's not my job to try to fix this, you know? And that's what my mind is always trying to do. It's like trying to work on it.
Cara: It's so, it's so much work. Mm-hmm. Um, and that goes along with, I do a similar thing with my own emotions, especially if I'm feeling a strong emotion. The impulse when I first see a strong difficult emotion is like, how do I get this the fuck outta here? Yeah. How do I pick up this big ass boulder and just hurl it, [00:18:00] eat it, maybe on somebody else.
Cara: Yeah. Um, and when I've had the capacity to just feel that emotion. Uh, I've learned a ton, but I do wanna make the caveat here that sometimes what I, I really do need to work on is not just sitting and feeling the emotion, but actually saying the thing that needs to be said. Hmm. Because there's a fine line between just, just working with something internally and like suppression and, and like judging yourself for, uh, having a strong feeling when actually something needs to be said or done and you deserve some airtime with your, your feeling.
Cara: So that's a complicated one.
Eva: Oh my God. We could do a whole episode on that where I've, I take spiritual concepts and learnings and realizations, and I turn them in on myself. And I think, [00:19:00] not necessarily for everybody, but meditation has been a place where, um, I'll speak for myself as someone who is, is naturally just more self, self deprecating.
Eva: I think you can come into the practice maybe more arrogant or more self-deprecating, which they're kind of the same thing, but, you know, if you're constantly invalidating yourself and, and judging yourself, then meditation is a practice of like, oh, well it must be me. It's always me. I'm the, I'm the problem.
Eva: So let me just like see if I can meditate it or alize it away, you know, so that I can be at peace so that I don't have to deal with the problem or, or express that I'm angry. And this. It's so tricky, like you were saying, Cara, because, um, sometimes I can catch it and sometimes I'm still really unaware and I need friends like Kylie to like point it out to me.
Eva: Be like, you're allowed to be angry about this. So that's a, that's a fine line that I'm always struggling with
Cara: and [00:20:00] I think you're just, you're naming a piece of it that's really useful, which is talking to other people and having friends who can help you with this stuff is so important. Mm-hmm. And it's just another way, like we tend to think, maybe this is another patriarchal thing, but like, we tend to think we have to do it by ourselves and like figure our shit out on our own.
Cara: Mm-hmm. And we, we don't why, you know,
Eva: why? Well, because we're supposed to suck it up. That's very much the colonial patriarchal view. Like, yeah. That's how we get through. We suck it up
Cara: and don't be dependent on anyone else. Uhhuh. Yeah. Yeah.
Kyley: Well, I will share what came up for me then because it's actually thematically related to where we are.
Kyley: And I, you know, when you, you ask people a question and then you really hate the answer that comes up for you, I was like, oh, shit. Because what I immediately saw is that the, the, the Boulder, like, it's like almost like wearing different, like fake mustaches, you know, it keeps [00:21:00] being different things, but it's essentially, um, trying to manage other people's perception of me.
Kyley: You know, like once, like, oh, am I thinking about a work thing? Oh, am I thinking about a family thing? Oh, am I thinking it's like over and over again. I'm just like, how can I make sure that everybody thinks that I'm great and they're not upset with me and they don't make me feel the shame of disappointed, being disappointed in me.
Kyley: So,
Eva: mm-hmm.
Kyley: Um, and then, and for me it's just like always coming back to, again, it's, you know, slightly different iterations, but it's like often coming back to like, it's okay to disappoint people write the reminder like, it's okay to disappoint people. Turns out you're not Yeah. And
Eva: you're not responsible for how other people feel about you.
Eva: Like that's the waters kind of going across. I mean, going over. Yeah.
Kyley: Yeah. Right, right. It's like not, it's not, it's not your job.
Cara: Uhhuh, dude, I, there was like a month in my life, maybe 10 years ago or something where I was really working on this and I made it, it was like disappointing people month. And I was like, [00:22:00] I'm just gonna disappoint as many people as possible this month.
Cara: I ended up backing out of a job that I was supposed to start the next day and it was like kind of an important job. And I was like, this job is just gonna be soul sucking for me. And I'm just realizing it now. So normally I would just suck it up and do it. But in the spirit of disappointing as many people as possible, this is gonna really take the cake.
Cara: I'm disappointing a ton of people. Yeah. But it was so freeing to do that. 'cause you can see how limiting it is to feel like I. It's so much work to just try to be pleasing other people. And then the loss of attunement to yourself and your own needs and on your own desires is yes. Is like devastating and you end up having no idea what you want or what you're needing.
Cara: Mm-hmm.
Eva: Yes. Yes. Oh my God, I love that so much. I have to try a disappointment week because as you were saying that, I was also like [00:23:00] so good, but also that took Kanes like to, to, to do that a day before you're getting the job. And part of me is like, yay, that's so scary. And also I'm in awe. Yeah. You don't have to do that, but you could just like, you know, cancel coffee with someone.
Eva: Yeah. My personality is, I tend to go extreme, so Yeah. Yeah. I think, yeah.
Kyley: Uh, my body hates the idea, by the way, of disappointment week. Like, like an intentional challenge, right. I, at this stage in my life, I am, if there's like a feeling that arises that's like, hmm, that's self abandonment, that's self betrayal.
Kyley: And then as soon as I know that, like I, I'm like, oh fuck. 'cause I ha I am too far in to not to like, not choose myself. So I also could see myself not doing the job the day before and it would be misery, but I would like have, like I know this feeling, this feeling means like, you can't go in that room, you know, you can't go over that threshold.
Kyley: But that also feels, that feels like the energy in my body is basically like, if I have [00:24:00] to, I will disappoint people. But there's something different in what. What I think I'm getting out of, even just the way you were phrasing, like disappointment month is like, there's a little invitation that's like, what if it wasn't like, oh fine, if I really have to, I will.
Kyley: But just like, uh, completely neutral. Like, do I want chocolate ice cream? Or if no ice cream, like, do I wanna disappoint people or not? Like there's a kind of neutrality that I feel like you're inviting it to be charged with that it doesn't have right now. And my body really hates that. So I'm it with that.
Cara: And just as a follow up to the story, the results of me backing out of that job, were epicly good.
Kyley: Of course. Every fucking time.
Cara: Yeah.
Eva: Every time. Yeah.
Kyley: Yeah,
Eva: yeah. We're believers. I mean, truly like, yeah, I, you know, Kylie has a saying that I love that she's like, your, your needs are generous or, or I've, you know, like, what's good for you?
Eva: What's good for other people ultimately in the long run, you know? And I really believe that that to be true. Yeah. We get ourselves in a [00:25:00] and other people in a lot of trouble when we're not being honest, essentially.
Kyley: Eva, I know that we haven't actually got to your answer the question. Mm-hmm. And I don't wanna skip over you, but this is all, get there.
Kyley: We'll, making me, but I'm gonna talk anyway, but this is all making me think about, um, you know, if the umbrella of this conversation is about this like feminine or yin energy, what I'm thinking about in our conversation right now is that the feminine isn't sacrificial. Right? Meaning to truly be in your feminine, to truly be in receiving energy is also.
Kyley: To, it's the opposite of abandonment or self abandonment or self betrayal, right? Like when I, which is interesting because obviously feminine is associated with motherhood and you know, Kara, I know you're also a mom. Like there's some element of like, my kid's crying at two in the morning, someone's getting up and it's right.
Kyley: And, and so there is some element of choosing to put your children before you, right? Like, I would rather [00:26:00] sleep, but my kid needs me. So we could Yeah, like sacrificing, we could call that sacrifice. But there's this other, this other layer of how we experience that we like selfa abandon, right? Because sacrifice is an actual, sacrifice is choice, right?
Kyley: I'm going to choose that my kid needs me and so I'm going to choose to forego sleep because I want to take care of my kid more than I want to sleep. There's choice there versus this like con um, conscripted, selfa abandonment, right? Which is like, I don't wanna do this job. My whole body's telling me that it's wrong, but I already said yes.
Kyley: So I just have to contort and squeeze myself into this space. And that's the kind of feminine passivity that I was trying to point to in the beginning that I think is really harmful. And I think it's like a, like an, like a misappropriation or misunderstanding of what is actually this really powerful, I have choice and uh, and I don't have to do anything.
Kyley: I don't fucking want to. [00:27:00] Yeah.
Cara: The word, like the words should mm-hmm. Versus want. Mm-hmm. Feel really important here. And I don't even know if it's like when we're not in touch with our feminine side or whatever we wanna call it, but I think it's just when there's no, uh, there's, there's no balance when it comes to the masculine, feminine energies.
Cara: There's just a lack of wisdom and, and presence and honoring of what's happening. What happens is everything starts to become a should, and there's no real inclusion or attunement or respect for what we are feeling and wanting.
Eva: Mm-hmm.
Cara: And feelings and desires are often associated with that feminine [00:28:00] energy.
Cara: It's like, oh, well what, what do I feel and what do I want and what do I feel passionate about? And how can I include that in the scope of what matters? And when that's not included, all that's left is, what should I do? What are other people saying that I should do? What's the right thing to do on paper?
Cara: And when we go by that we become miserable because none of the things that we want or care about are involved.
Eva: Mm-hmm. So. My guess, though is that you're learning from experience, right? Like, I think, I'm curious, going back to maybe previous phases of this conversation or like, um, you've, how long have you been a Dharma teacher?
Eva: Um, maybe about like eight or 10 years, something like that. Okay. Yeah. So I mean, I think, I'm curious, where in your journey has, did this become more alive for you? [00:29:00] And I think what's so fascinating about it as well is that it seems like it's also co, I'm answering a question here of my own, but like, it seems like it's probably constantly alive.
Eva: Like, does it ever go away where you're like, okay, I got it. And then, and then we're good. Um, because I, I, um, I could be wrong, but I just assume through your practice there's so much self-awareness, you know, and I don't know what the question, there's so much self-awareness, so it's like you notice it, but also I am understanding that there's, there's been challenges in your life that have sort of forced you into learning this, and I'm wondering if you could talk more about that.
Cara: Yeah. Well, you mean just talk about the path of the dis the discovery path of this for me over all? Yes, yes.
Eva: Like, you know, with your Lyme disease and in motherhood and, you know, different facets of your life.
Cara: Yeah. Um. I'm a little hung up on the fact that you, did you get to go, Eva? [00:30:00]
Eva: Oh, no. I mean, I'm ha Okay.
Eva: That's so thoughtful of you, Kara. What a, what a sweet guest. I was just like, so into the conversation that I was like, I wanted more, but I'm, I'm very happy to ask, answer, answer the question. Um, and I will say they're kind of similar to both of yours, is that what I was actually noticing? Like the boulder that I'm picking up doesn't seem like it's necessarily a circumstance.
Eva: It's very much a habit pattern of my mind. Mm-hmm. And so it's perfectionism basically, anytime that I'm like, I have to get this right and really right, which like, what the fuck does that even mean? Right. Because that's just not, it's just a concept. But I almost get so hung up on that perfectionism because I'm probably not wanting to feel shame that that's a fucking heavy boulder.
Eva: And it's one also laced with like crazy, um, neurotic tendencies, you know? And so I think that's also just very [00:31:00] energetically expensive. And then the other one, and you
Cara: never get there. You can never get to perfect. Ever. You might, you might have the semblance of perfection for a second, and
Kyley: then it just all falls
Cara: apart.
Eva: Totally.
Kyley: And what's really tricky is how your perfectionism is like, well, we'll just be perfect at not being perfect. That's fine.
Eva: Oh my God. Exactly. The mine is so tricky and I'm so good at doing, I don't know, backward back ass shit back. Yeah. Yes. You were gonna say something else. Yeah. The second thing I wanna speak to is, um, also in relation to my health.
Eva: I mean, you know, with chronic fatigue, it's like, it's similar to what you were saying Cara, about not basically really wanting it to be different from how it is and finding myself using force or even like subtle acts of violence to change that. But it's like, [00:32:00] I have been dealing with this for so long, 10 years and I still catch myself being like, like a vice grip on like, oh, like, okay, how can I change this?
Eva: How can I, I get really anxious. I think what happens is that once, if I have a flare up, I get anxious and then that anxiety takes over where I'm not in, I think, feminine energy at all. And it's all about masculine, about like just really, um, strategic things that are almost coming from a place of like desperation and grasping and.
Eva: It is a, it's a boulder because I actually see the, how that's harming me more than it's helping me if I'm not doing it from a place of love. But doing it from a place of like, like, um, treading water. It Yeah. It feels like a boulder.
Cara: This is so, so alive for me and so interesting. Especially 'cause I just like, I don't know, a month ago or something, I just [00:33:00] finished first trimester of her pregnancy and I felt it was kind of like having the flu for like 17 weeks or something.
Cara: It was terrible. Um, and I was watching my mind while I was like lying on the couch watching Netflix and just letting my son watch way more TV than I normally let him watch. And uh, I was like, this is only a problem because I'm beating myself up for not doing something right now. And it's kind of like when you go to, when you start falling asleep in a meditation, the actual experience of getting sleepy is quite pleasant.
Cara: Yeah. You know, it's like, it's really nice and cozy.
Kyley: Some of the best naps of my life have happened during meditation. Yeah,
Cara: me too. Uh, but if we think we're not supposed to be doing it, then it's very painful. You [00:34:00] know, and we fight it. And it's the same thing with something like having chronic fatigue or being sick, or not having the capacity to do things in the world the way we think we're supposed to, and be efficient and accomplish a lot of stuff.
Cara: And, uh, just be out there making shit happen. That's the fact that we are not doing that is only a problem because we think we should be, but if we have complete permission to just be tired and to lay around, that's kind of awesome actually.
Eva: Yeah. And it's actually way better for my nervous system, right?
Eva: Because, and then I get to finally relax and I think there's benefit to that. But, but what happens is, I mean, I think what you're speaking to is like the simplicity of acceptance of basically not resisting what is, but I think with something specifically like health, I'm sure a [00:35:00] lot of things you could say this about finances, anything that really gets you in, like fight or flight mode where you're kind of freaked out or, um, it really exacerbates that.
Eva: Like, I need to do something or I need to fix something. And actually, so my Dharma teacher, Amma, she was on the show, Kylie, she had, she's, she was diagnosed with cancer. And I just, the way that she explained it was like, it's this tricky balance of like surrendering completely while also doing everything that you can to stay alive.
Eva: I. I'm like, what is that balance man? Like? It's true. Like I don't, I don't like, it's a tight rope, like Yeah, okay. Especially
Cara: when you're dealing with something that like, the, like doctors don't really know quite what to do about Exactly. And you feel like you're kind of on your own with trying to figure out how to heal.
Eva: Mm-hmm. Yeah. Were you gonna say something Kylie?
Kyley: Well, it, I'm just, I mean, I love, first of all, I just love magic because all of this, everything we're talking about is what I woke up thinking about. [00:36:00] So I was having this conversation in my head by myself, was much less fun. But, uh, you know, just a couple hours earlier, well also Kylie's totally 100% psychic.
Kyley: So there's, there's that,
Cara: um, makes sense.
Kyley: Uh, but I, so, you know, I, so I, I don't have chronic health issues like both of you do. So this is a much smaller scale thing, but I do have this left hip who has a lot to say, especially because my mattress sucks. Um, and, um, and I have like, just like tension in my feet and I have some, like my muscles have, and anyways, the whole details are important.
Kyley: But what's interesting is I woke up this morning and was like, oh yeah, this is the morning where my hip doesn't feel great. My, the soles of my feet are really tight. And, um. And one of the first thoughts while I was still laying in bed with my eyes closed was like, you know, you could do something about that.
Kyley: Meaning like, I'm really great about, like, oh, let's have a conversation with my [00:37:00] hip. Like, oh, let's go to the emotions from, you know, 38 years ago that are living there. That part of it, that like feminine part of it I'm really good at. But as I was laying in bed, my body was like, you know, you could like stretch.
Kyley: Yeah. You could take action, you could do something. And it was like this, like total light bulb went off that was like, yeah, girl. Like you've done all of this, like pretty intense stuff to take care of these feet in this hip. And also like you could just stretch, you know? Um, and that's what, that's what's interesting to me too is like this permission to like feel deeply and just like be in, and the number of times that I too have like thought that something was hurting physical pain and then I soften into it and there's like this relief and there's something beautiful in the discomfort.
Kyley: And also holding that, being in that while also taking action or allowing action that isn't scratchy [00:38:00] and scrambly but is like really powerful is like just such a fine tuned balance.
Cara: Well I think they, they so go hand in hand because when you're not directing so much energy into. Not accepting something that just is, you're not directing so much energy into trying to pick up the boulder that you can't pick up.
Cara: Then all of a sudden, all this energy and, and clarity and mental energy gets freed up to attune to what can be done about something. I have this story about, I went on this solo hiking trip when I was in a very stressful time in my life, and I was like, I'm just gonna be in the woods by myself for days.
Cara: And then I bumped into this guy who like, I didn't really like very much, no. And yeah, and he was like, oh, Cara, like, I'm so glad you're here. I just went through this really [00:39:00] bad breakup and like, I really need someone to talk to about it. And like my whole thing at the time was like, I just need space from other people's problems.
Kyley: Yeah,
Cara: they found you in the fucking, fucking found me in the woods. And I kept on trying to lose him, you know, and he just kept on showing up like five times over the course of several days. He just kept on finding me
Kyley: like some kids cartoon, like,
Cara: yeah, yeah. And, and I was, afterwards I was telling another Dharma teacher about the experience and he was like, well, yeah, at that point you just gotta accept that this is what's happening.
Cara: And then I talked to, I have like an intuitive therapist who her, she's incredible, Karen Benevento, but she was like. I'm getting that you were supposed to be on that trip by yourself. And I was like, I know. And, uh, it occurred to me, well, many things. One, like the message that I was getting as like in a dharma [00:40:00] world was like, that's your practice.
Cara: You just gotta accept that things are the way they are and not do anything about it. Um, but also I had never actually told this guy flat out that I wanted to be my by self, and I couldn't. Yes. I was spending so much energy just being like judging myself for not being cool with the situation and like wondering what to do about it and trying to just practice with it internally.
Cara: And if I had honored all of what was happening for me and included what I wanted and needed, then it, I would've had some energy to that was free and not resisting the situation to just be like, Hey, huh, you know, actually I know you're struggling with something, but I'm struggling with something too, so I need some space right now.
Cara: Like, I think, and then that would've solved a problem. It would've been really easy. Yeah. And he would've been like, oh, okay. And left me alone because I mean, that's what any reasonable person would do.
Eva: [00:41:00] Yes. And I feel like that's powerful. Like that's the answer to the question of like, what does powerful yin energy looks like look like?
Eva: It's like you're so attuned with yourself and you're not wasting the energy that then you can. You know what? I don't know what, what You can just, there's so many words you can call it. You can be big, you can be honest, but you're just clear. Like, it just feels like such a clear energy to me. Yeah. And that feels very powerful.
Cara: Yes. Yeah. There's a clarity that comes from honoring all of your feelings and letting them be part of what's important and a release from fighting with, with things as they are. And we do so much, we're so hellbent on doing something to fix a problem that we don't have any space to, uh, let answers come from outside of ourselves.
Eva: Mm-hmm.
Cara: And, and tune it to both. It's not that like [00:42:00] our logic isn't useful or the things that we like are reasonable to do, aren't useful, it's just that they're usually not paired with a receptivity to other information, other kinds of wisdom coming to us, not just from us.
Eva: Mm-hmm.
Kyley: I, uh, wish that people had video for this one in particular because everyone's made really great facial expressions.
Kyley: And also I just, as we were having that conversation, had the strongest need to light. I have this one candle that's essentially like. Uh, my, uh, my like goddess self, you know, dark feminine energy candle. And then the second you said like, or I could have just told this guy to fuck off. I mean, you said it nicer than that, right?
Kyley: I was like, oh, I gotta light my candle, which I haven't lit in, in a minute. Um, and like, I couldn't not, it was like urgent, urgent need. Because I think that to just [00:43:00] keep coming back to this question of like the feminine power, it's like, it's knowing what you need and when you know what you need, you allow yourself to receive it.
Kyley: And then also you're willing to disrupt the status quo in order to allow yourself to receive it, right? So it's, you're still in that instance. You're not, you running away from him and like trying to lose him in the woods. Was was, was that passive? Sorry, I'm, apparently, I'm hung up on this idea, but was that like twisted passive thing, right?
Kyley: Because you're, you're doing a lot of effort, but it's like, well, I can't disrupt anything as opposed to when we just say what we need, it is disruptive, but it's receiving energy because you're not, you're still not actually forcing him to go away. You're just telling him like, I don't really want you here.
Kyley: And then you get to find out what's gonna happen. So you're still in receiving energy. But there's something here that's very intriguing to me about how. A willingness to be [00:44:00] disruptive is actually like a required part of receiving energy.
Cara: I really like that. And if you're gonna change thing, the status quo, if you're gonna change your own habits of mind that are not helpful, you're probably gonna have to interrupt things and do something that feels risky and is gonna create some uncertainty.
Cara: And doing that felt risky and uncertain. And maybe could have had a consequence where like, my, my relationship with this guy was like more uncomfortable or awkward, but maybe not. And may, that's just another
Kyley: thing that I'm gonna learn from, you know? And maybe that would've, maybe that would've been awesome.
Kyley: I mean, in the right and just like letting go, not taking the job the day before opened up amazing things. Maybe you said, uh, like, Hey, I don't actually want you here. And he stormed off in a huff and was like, it was super uncomfortable. And somehow that created [00:45:00] something even better that hadn't been there before.
Eva: Totally. Yeah. Maybe he met some girl on the hike and got a new girlfriend.
Cara: Oh my God. I prevented him from getting a new girlfriend because I didn't,
Eva: oh my God. It's pretty hilarious.
Kyley: Oh, okay. And I, I'm, I really love this piece that we're speaking to, which is that it's, it's really tempting in spiritual language, I think, especially to like, let me learn from this. And like, what is, what if it's meant to be, it will be. And there's just this kind of like, um, uh, discomfort.
Kyley: Well, I think probably it's discomfort with desire, right? And I know like a lot of a, there's a lot of spiritual schools of thought that are like, well, desire is a thing we need to separate ourselves from or whatever. But I think what, on some level what I'm thinking about is we're having this conversation is like, we [00:46:00] can't, we can't let desire be another boulder that we pick up, but we also can't pretend it's not there.
Kyley: And when we let it be, be the water and let it let it be part of the process. A it will be disruptive, but also it's powerful. I mean, maybe I'm even thinking about how maybe the water itself is desire and I'm gonna have to meditate on that later. But, um, but how important it is to know what we need to honor, what we need to see our desires as a part of an internal thing that matters just as much as all these other inputs do.
Kyley: Um,
Cara: yeah. And it matters maybe just as much as all other. Influences matter, like the way anger matters and the way all of our emotions matter. But there's something noteworthy about how we have societally a very complicated relationship with [00:47:00] desire. Mm-hmm. And we tend to, uh, dismiss or suppress our desires to the point where we don't get any information from them when they do have something really valuable to offer.
Cara: It's, it's just that desire is really strong and we have this, this crazy love he relationship with it where it convinces us that the object of desire is gonna do it for us.
Eva: Mm-hmm.
Cara: Uh, and we get tantalized by that. And as a result, we don't get the deeper message behind the desire, which is like, it's usually something about, I really want to be free.
Cara: I really wanna be happy. Maybe this cookie will make me happy forever. Right. And we get tantalized by the cookie and we lose the message there that's like, there's actually something really good behind the desire for the cookie. It's like, I really want to just [00:48:00] feel okay and be well, and feel safe, and I need a hug.
Cara: And all of that is very important information that we don't get if we're either suppressing our desire or just lost in the cookie.
Kyley: Yes. Right, right. If we make it about the cookie, then we miss something. And if we pretend it's not there, we miss something. Exactly. Can I ask a question that's maybe too philosophical?
Kyley: I mean, but you can ring me
Eva: in. Okay. I don't think there's anything too philosophical for this show, but let's go.
Kyley: But, uh, isn't anger also just desire, like, isn't everything desire? Because if I, if anger's coming up, isn't the desire to feel and be in intimacy with my anger not attached to it, but like, isn't basically isn't desire the thing under the thing for everything?
Kyley: 'cause if I'm angry, I wanna be angry and I wanna not be angry. Right. Well, if
Cara: I'm a, yeah. If I'm [00:49:00] angry, I want to be treated a certain way. Mm-hmm. And I, I want, uh, to be safe. Mm-hmm. And I don't wanna be harmed. Mm-hmm. And so maybe we could frame everything as being about the desire to be safe and happy and free.
Cara: Mm-hmm. And every emotion comes from that deep, deep wish. I think there's maybe some nuance we can pull apart around the word desire and kind of tease out the difference. In Buddhism, at least one would talk about the difference between greed, which is, which is the type of desire that's like. Diluted. You know, it's the type of desire that we think that this object outside of myself is gonna make me free and safe and happy.
Cara: Mm. Mm-hmm. Um, so greed versus, uh, a more, [00:50:00] uh, a desire that's more infused with wisdom, which is like just the desire to be free purely and to, and to have an understanding about where that kind of freedom and happiness and safety that lasts actually comes from, which is more of an inside job. Turns out turns.
Cara: Yeah.
Eva: Turns out I love that differentiation though. Yes. Because I think that's where things get distorted, where people have a discomfort with desire because they're, um, associating it with what maybe we would call greed and Buddhism. But I do also, I don't know if, I do also think, wonder, think that all desire really stems from what you said, Kara, the like, I think coming home to something that we know is true, which is like we, that it's, that we wanna be, and that's possible to be free, joyful, and loving.
Eva: I think like that is the root of all desire.
Cara: Mm-hmm. Yeah. And, and if you [00:51:00] get, if you start paying really close attention, like some nerdy Buddhists like I do, you can start to see that every single. Time you move every single time your brain tries to think about anything. It's all about that. It's every time you move your body, it's 'cause you're trying to get more comfortable because you wanna feel okay.
Cara: Every time you think a thought, it's because you're trying to get more comfortable in some way, either long term or short term. So it's interesting. Do you think there's no neutral thoughts? I think even neutral thoughts are about that. Oh, I mean there, there are thoughts that can appear to be pretty trivial.
Cara: Mm-hmm. But sometimes the mind just generates stuff because it's a way of, [00:52:00] it's just used to trying to grope for something other than this moment as a way to find that okayness. And so it's like, well, why don't I just do this? Because happiness is somewhere other than just attuning to the present moment and feeling this.
Cara: Mm-hmm.
Eva: Yeah. That's interesting. I'm thinking about that. I'm thinking about my neutral thoughts, like, I'm hungry. That's not that neutral. That's a, that's me trying to get to comfort through, you know, feeding myself or like maybe people watching it. Even people watching is like, even though it's very enjoyable for me, it's always like an assessment.
Eva: I'm constantly. In assessment mode. And that is the habit of my mind of like, I think trying to keep myself safe, you know, like constantly looking for danger. I'm just not finding any, instead I'm finding someone wearing a cute outfit, you know? Or what something, but, but yeah. Yeah. But I actually think that's like, so helpful.
Eva: I see this is a conversation that comes up with my clients a lot as well, is that like they have [00:53:00] all of these ambitions or goals or things that they're doing and they're not seeing, sometimes it's, it's just not obvious at first that, well, why do you want that? It's because you just really want to be happy, peaceful, and, and loving.
Eva: And we forget that that is actually that the core desire.
Cara: Yeah. And I think the reason that this matters, that pointing this out matters is because it's a way that we can really start to honor and value our desires and not dismiss them entirely. Because it points to our goodness there's something really good and and beautiful about everything that we want and how we're just trying to feel okay, in a world that's out of our control and we don't know how.
Cara: And that's what all desire is about. And so if we can understand that we're not just broken and horrible because we have wants, then we can start to respect ourselves or approach our experience from a place of kind regard.
Eva: [00:54:00] Yeah.
Cara: Mm-hmm.
Kyley: And I think when we can start to separate. Or we can start to see that we both want a thing, we want a material thing or like some external place of arrival because we want some emotional state.
Kyley: And, and we start to see, first of all, that we want both of those things, right? Like, I want the cookie 'cause I actually want, feel really like sweet and like nourished for a minute, right? Like, like a, like life's a treat or whatever, whatever the thing is. And then if you can let them separate, you also start to be able to give yourself access to that experience independent of the thing, right?
Kyley: Like one of the things I talk with my clients a lot is like, okay, well I wanna do this big launch because I wanna rest. And it's like, okay, well you can't then build this launch from this place of hustle and strife and working 40 hours a week with the idea that then you will get rest on the other side.
Kyley: Yeah. Like, first of all, it doesn't work that way, but also how shitty and unkind is that to yourself? Like what is the, if what you want, [00:55:00] if you're a desired outcome is rest, how much rest can we give you right now? How can we build like the most luxuriously, restful process of sharing your work in the world so that you don't have to keep chasing this thing?
Kyley: You could have it right now. Let's figure out, let, let's stop putting these conditions on it. And I feel like that's the thing that the, when we fuse the desired emotional state with the desired thing, we actually are just placing conditions like, well I can't have that. Rest until I have the success or I can't have that feeling of satisfaction until I get the cookie.
Kyley: It's like they're not actually related. You just fuse them, you can unuse them.
Cara: Yeah. And mm-hmm. The word that is coming to mind is worthiness. Mm-hmm. And how we feel like we have to earn everything. Yeah. Mm-hmm. And we we're not supposed to just like watch Netflix all day on the couch [00:56:00] unless we burned it, you know, unless we've spent the past two months working our asses off.
Eva: Right? Mm-hmm.
Cara: And then we might feel okay about doing that for a little while, but then we have to go back to work so that we can earn it again.
Eva: Right, right, right. I think I was really touched by when we were talking about desire, you said that Cara, you had said that it points to our goodness, right?
Eva: Because it's just mm-hmm. And I just felt a wave of compassion, I think, for myself. And also then, which I felt like was a ripple for other people too, of like, that means all of these things that we judge ourselves for, like our neurotic tendencies are like bad habits. The things that we think that we should be changed, we should be over now, but aren't art like, it, it, there's an innocence really in all of that.
Eva: And it, that just feels like such coming back into the yin energy, like this compassion [00:57:00] of like. And then once you take away the judgment and there's just love there and you cut yourself some slack, you're kind of off the hook. You have so much more energy to take wise action, whatever that might look like for you in that situation.
Eva: But I think I really needed to hear that because the, the emotional experience that I had when you said that, I was like, oh my God, it's okay. Like all these things that I'm, so, you know, coming back to the, the perfectionism, it's okay. All these things that I feel like I'm, I'm doing wrong or I haven't gotten yet.
Eva: Like Yeah. Just to point me back to my goodness. So thank you for saying that.
Cara: Yeah. I'm really happy to hear that. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, we're all just trying our best and we, we live in bodies and in a world that we can't control and we, we can't predict what will happen and we're all trying to be good and trying to be okay in the world, and we just don't know how.
Cara: Yeah. That's always something that makes, well, that's really
Eva: interesting. Yeah. Go ahead. Mm-hmm. [00:58:00] Well, I was gonna say the interest, the topics that you had brought to the show to potentially discuss were like areas around motherhood, politics and body and image body. And I'm like, well those are three places ripe with all the fuckery of like, um, I dunno, the perfectionism, but also stories where we're not, or areas where we're, we forget, I think it's easier to forget the feminine energy in these areas because there's so much dialogue around how.
Eva: Pressure, but pressure and dialogue of like, how we're supposed to do it, right. How our body is supposed to look and feel, how motherhood is supposed to look and feel, and like what it means to be a moral person in society who is contributing to the suffering of the world. You know, there's just so much morality in all of those, in each one of those, um, areas of life.
Eva: Yeah.
Kyley: Okay. In an effort to bring this like beautiful, meandering, philosophical conversation into something a little bit tangible, [00:59:00] can we think through, I would love to hear from you a little bit about how this, these things that we're discussing might show up for us specifically in our bodies and in our relationship to our bodies.
Kyley: So the first time that,
Cara: uh, all of this. Kind of flooded in for me as new insight around how I judged myself and how I, um, kind of excluded parts of myself, both in meditation practice and just in life was when, um, I started feeling I was, I had been doing a, a lot of meditation and so I was starting to get more attuned to my body and I started noticing where I held tension in my body.
Cara: And some really major places of tension for me were my throat, uh, where I, [01:00:00] it feels like what's happening there is there's, that's the place where I feel like I can control my self-expression and my emotions. Um, and then the other place is my belly and a lot of self-judgment around my belly and the way it looks and how it should or shouldn't stick out.
Cara: And, um, also a lot of emotion in my belly that is kind of like ready to flow and wants to come up maybe up through my throat and all over the place. And, um. I hold tension in my belly as a way of mitigating that and preventing the fullest expression of who I am. And when I started to notice that and how uncomfortable it is to be holding those places all the time, and I bet you a lot of us are like [01:01:00] always sucking our bellies in all, and, and your places might be different from my places.
Cara: You know, you might have other places that you clamp down around as a way of, uh, containing or suppressing parts of yourself. But those were my trigger points and those were places that when I started to tune into them more, there was a lot, there was a growing unwillingness to continue to hold tension there.
Cara: And because of how unpleasant it felt and the, a growing sense of rebellion against how society had encouraged me to like hold my belly in. Mm-hmm. And like a little bit of like, wait a second, why can't my belly be big?
Eva: Why can't I
Cara: just like, have a, have abs of jello?
Eva: Yeah. Let it all hang it out and be loosey goosey.
Cara: Yeah. And also my [01:02:00] face was another place I noticed that I was kind of always trying to plaster on some. Thing on my face to appear a certain way mm-hmm. To the world around me. And there was, I remember distinctly this moment when I was on a meditation retreat where my face just like melted and I was like, I don't have to care what other people think that I look like, and I'm just gonna have resting bitch face for the rest of my life.
Cara: This is awesome. And, uh, just things started to really flow more. And what happened was, I felt a lot of rage at first actually, because that was part of what was being suppressed. And, uh, and also just opened up to a lot of intuition and, um, which, which kind [01:03:00] of seemed like it came in the form of, up in the form of wanting like, oh, I really, really want, uh, I just really want to be messy and free and weird and not perfect.
Cara: And there was just this kind of rippling of ease that, that washed through me as a result of those places kind of coming open. But then I also had to deal with. The judgment that had been kind of holding those places to begin with.
Eva: Mm-hmm.
Cara: And work with whatever this new version of me was as I started to integrate it into the world.
Cara: And yeah.
Eva: Before we, we get to that part of the journey, I think I'd love to know more about how [01:04:00] you, did you find helpful ways of releasing the tension in your throat? And if so, yeah. I'm asking selfishly for myself,
Kyley: like asking for a friend. Yeah.
Cara: Well, this is actually, this has been such a long and ongoing thing for me is it's kind of like what my whole practice is right now actually, is just noticing the physical discomfort of tension and, um, bringing my attention to it and learning what it might look like to simply open to that feeling and 'cause at first what the impulses is to try to like pry it open, you know?
Cara: Mm. And I kind of compare that to like prying a flower open before it's ready to bloom. [01:05:00] I'm like, I should just be open. I should just be relaxed. And that energy of forceful opening is actually the opposite of natural opening. You know what, what natural opening comes from is trust and ease. And trust and ease come more from bearing witness to an experience and recognizing that we can handle it and mm-hmm.
Cara: Something in there is acceptance that allows us to relax around the experience and then true opening happens or it doesn't, but we're okay with it. Mm-hmm. Yeah. And we don't need it to open anymore. And so the process of turning toward, I turn towards the discomfort that I'm experiencing, the tension, the pain, and um, I'm with it until it reaches a point where I'm starting to get really [01:06:00] mentally out of balance.
Cara: The mind is just struggling with it, starting to grapple with it. Um, very unhappy. And then I shift the attention away to something that actually I can accept much more easily. Like I open to sounds or I feel my feet, or I feel my breath, or just something that doesn't feel so charged. And then the mind starts to come back into balance and, and remember what it feels like to allow something.
Cara: And then maybe I can turn back to the tension in my throat or wherever it is that I'm experiencing something that is hard. Yeah. And so that's this titration that one can do between, um, being in your window of tolerance and out of your window of tolerance that starts to open your window of tolerance.
Cara: Mm-hmm.
Eva: Yes. Oh, such a beautiful, you've done a wonderful job describing a beautiful practice. Yeah. Okay. So then,[01:07:00]
Eva: you know, having done that, you then, you were talking about needing to face, like, I don't know if you'd call it consequences. I'm not sure what the languages you used, but basically shit came up and or there were repercussions of that. And what were those repercussions maybe, I don't know, you know, that's a better word for the repercussions, but what, you know, what happened basically?
Eva: And how did you move through that part?
Cara: I mean, I think the reason that I had been suppressing these parts of myself was because I was afraid of them and who, who, who I might be if I allowed myself to be angry or expressive. Uh, because I'm pretty used to being perceived as someone who's like really got their shit together and is like, you know, kind of
Eva: stoic.
Eva: Yeah. I'm like, is this an Asian thing? 'cause I'm like, you really are just, just like, I feel like naming how I feel to a t in many ways. But, and that's why Asian [01:08:00] people love Ali
Cara: Wong. Because she's like, she's fucking like pregnant and like swearing unfiltered. Yeah. Totally unfiltered The wall. Shown her underwear on stage that like Yeah.
Cara: Like pretending to give birth and have sex on stage and
Eva: eat s Yeah. On stage. That's
Cara: maybe, yeah. I think there's, there's something in there about the conditioning of Asian women. Mm-hmm. Um, but actually I, it was around this time in my practice that I saw her first Netflix special and I was like, oh, that's what it might look like to be proud of these parts of myself that I've been suppressing.
Cara: Like there are models out there mm-hmm. For this. And you're like, and actually it's
Eva: awesome.
Cara: It's fucking awesome. Yeah. And it looks so free. Yeah. And people love it because it's uncomfortable for other people to feel my self suppression. [01:09:00] And there's a way in which when I trust myself, other people trust me too because they know I'm being honest.
Cara: Even if what I'm expressing is like, fuck you right now. Um, at least they know that they can trust that I'm gonna say what I'm feeling and not pretend that I like them when I don't. Yes. So there's, I think I was, I had been dismissing the entire experience of my self-expression and my anger or whatever it was.
Cara: I was feeling as feeling unsafe for other people when actually it could help people feel safer around me because we can now have a honest conversation and trust that I can hang and, and be real with them. Mm-hmm. Yeah. Yes.
Eva: Yeah. I recently had a, um, an experience where I noticed that I'm so much safer for other people when [01:10:00] I feel safe within myself.
Eva: And I was like, wow, that's, I've been trying to do the reverse. I've been trying to, when people
Kyley: that I, oh, sorry. Love. No, that was when people that I love, like, tell me they're upset, my first response is almost always, thank you. Like, like the people that are my real people and they're like, Hey, this thing bothered me.
Kyley: I'm just always like, thank you. Like, thank you. Even as I might feel like shit about it. Right? I'm just like, thank you for being honest. Right. Because now we can navigate and thank you for trusting me enough. Um, and I also think people who are really triggered by you being honest or people who can't do, they can't, they can't do it themselves.
Kyley: Right. Like whenever I've been really honest with someone and they, not in a reactionary way, just like said the thing and they freaked out, it's like, okay, well I just touched on something that you can't. You in yourself can't feel. Right. So even that is like not my [01:11:00] job. Right. Um, but I also will share about Ali Wong, the first time I watched her stand up, I think I had like a one and a half or a 2-year-old.
Kyley: So Desi, like Desi was my only kid and he was little and I started to cry and I like couldn't finish it because like Nick was, my husband was like laughing about how great and funny she's, and I literally started like, I, I had to stop because it was just making me, not in a sad way, but it was like so emotional, uh, watching this like, amazing woman do all these things that you're talking about in this way that I obviously really needed to see.
Kyley: And I was just like, I can't, I can't process this any other way than just tears.
Eva: Wow. Yeah.
Kyley: And I had to shut it off because it was like, it, it was like the intent, it was like, okay, this was intense enough. I had this 15 minutes undid me and I need to integrate that before I can watch more. Oh my God.
Eva: So
Cara: yeah, I mean, I think [01:12:00] she did something to shake the foundation of stuckness and with, and like women in our society and to show the world that it's possible to be proud of all things feminine.
Cara: Hmm. Yeah. And like
Kyley: unapologetic. Yeah. I feel like that's the word that comes up to me is that she's just like, I'm not apo, I'm not apologizing.
Eva: Yeah. Yeah. And that you won't get cast out of love. Like, could it be that you're, you could be yourself and you're not gonna get burned at the stake, you know? Yeah,
Cara: yeah.
Cara: Quite the opposite, in fact. Yeah. Yeah, yeah. Yeah.
Eva: Exactly. Yeah. Huh. So where you had left off though, was about, I think, what was it like the aftermath, I think of, of expressing, or, I don't know, would you say that you expressed the rage that you felt or feeling the rage that you felt like, you know, opening [01:13:00] the 10 places of tension in your body?
Cara: Yeah, I, I, you know, it wasn't that long after I watched that Netflix special that I ended up going on this solo year long meditation retreat and a lot of, yes. Wait,
Eva: switch. I'm gonna talk about in the intro of the show though, because it's just, and I told Kylie about it, but it's just, um, I, I'm gonna maybe direct people to listen to that other episode too, if you're open to that.
Eva: Okay. Because it's just so good.
Cara: Yeah. Okay. But I don't think we included this in. As any of the recordings that we played in that episode. But there are many recordings that I took of myself during that retreat where I was just in a rage and I was screaming. And fortunately I was in a cabin by myself in the middle of nowhere, Colorado.
Cara: So I could do that, but hopefully nobody heard me. But who knows? Uh, but just there was just [01:14:00] so much rage in there that had been suppressed, that needed to come out. And I learned so much about anger from that. And the main thing that I learned that took me quite a while to really pinpoint was I kept noticing it was so painful.
Cara: I, it was so painful to be angry. I hated it. I didn't want it anymore. And I was trapped. It felt like I was trapped in it. But when I started to be able to identify what exactly the pain was, what I discovered was I was really mad at myself for allowing my boundaries to be violated, for getting myself into this situation for not standing up for myself, uh, for not expressing myself.
Cara: And so all of the energy that I had been put putting into suppressing myself, I was mad at that part of myself, the part of myself that was [01:15:00] clamping down, um, for. Being, basically just being so mean to myself.
Kyley: Mm-hmm.
Cara: Um, and when I could see that it was really about me being mad or regretful or disappointed in myself, it was just so much easier to move through that stage of my journey because then I could forgive myself.
Cara: Like I just didn't know what the fuck to do. And I was afraid of that feeling because I've been hurt by other people being angry in my life, who were supposed to be safe people and were really important to me. And I didn't wanna repeat that pattern. And so I had no idea what to do besides suppress it.
Cara: Mm-hmm. And that was really painful for me. And what I could come down to was like, this is just really, that was really hard for me, what I went through. And like, I could grieve something in there that just needed to be [01:16:00] grieved, like the sense of helplessness in the face of an unjust situation. Um, and the pain that I was in and all of the different layers of anger and suppression and anger at myself and anger at other people were there kind of masking this grief and, and helplessness that just really needed to be held with a sense of love and tenderness and compassion.
Cara: And then I could do that. And there was something quite transformative about that.
Eva: That's like so beautiful.
Cara: Yeah. Yeah. And I, and I think there, that's where, that's where we can maybe come back to this receptive compass, yin energy that, uh, [01:17:00] is really, really essential. And the, the doing and the trying to, you know, just blame the world for our problems. It holds us apart from this very healing, receptive listening kind of energy that can really touch into the heart or the core of, um, healing and what's, what's really needed.
Eva: Yeah. I think both Kylie and I seem to be getting teared up. So you've done a great job as a podcast guest.
Kyley: Yeah. My whole body is like, on a journey. Like I, uh, it was just interesting as you were walking through, um, talking about your anger when you were talking about like where we hold tension in our body, right.
Kyley: Some part of me was like, oh, let's just make like, no where are we? And I was thinking about my jaw. [01:18:00] Then I was, and so as you were walking, I was like walking alongside you as you took us on that journey, you know? And, um, it's interesting, I landed in this place as you were sharing that, about this anger, about things that I feel like I haven't been able to say that's old and, and like just an energy, right?
Kyley: It's not even words, it's just like an energy. Um, but then also immediately watching, I'm always so fascinated by how our emotions try to protect us because I'm, as soon as I saw like the littlest sliver at this anger, um, his hopelessness came in and it was like, well, nothing's gonna change, so don't bother being angry.
Kyley: You know? And it was just watched how quickly hopelessness came in to be like, I'll take care of you. You don't have to go feel that anger. 'cause under that anger, eventually we're gonna get down to shame. And we know that one sucks. Let's just feel hopeless, and then we'll just get distracted and forget all about this.
Kyley: And then your jaw will hurt again tomorrow. But that's fine. That's better [01:19:00] than the shame. And then just, I just, some part of me really loves watching how these layers of feelings are just all so lovingly taking care of us, even as they feel like they, they feel painful, but they're all just trying. To just take such good care of us.
Cara: Hmm. And I think that's, so what you're describing is really important because it's too easy, I think, to get the idea, especially with the story I just told, that we have to get through all these layers before we can heal. Mm-hmm. And what your point to is, even in the middle of a layer, whether it's shame or hopelessness or anger, we can immediately identify that there's goodness there and there's, there's like a longing to be free and to not hurt anymore that we can, we can stop with and feel that [01:20:00] in any moment.
Kyley: And the complexity of holding that it is uncomfortable, like each one of these layers there might be really uncomfortable, but they are also like that version, that part of us that's like their best shot at loving us. You know, it's like that saying of like, you do what you can with the tools that you have at the time.
Kyley: Kind of like, so it's like holding the complexity that this is really painful and this is me trying to love me. And so there's like gratitude that doesn't cancel out. That's, that's also for me, this overarching theme of feminine. It's also a lot about like, holding complex truths to be true at the same time, you know?
Kyley: And so we don't have to force to be like, I'm so happy that I am angry. Like, no, it might hurt. And at the same time, just the gratitude of like, thanks anger for loving me. Yeah. Even though I fucking hate you right now. Anger. [01:21:00] Thanks for loving me. All of that can be true.
Eva: Yeah. Yeah. Oh, I'm really touched by how like both of you are really speaking to, in the folk, speaking to different expressions of love.
Eva: Like, even though you're Kylie, you're talking about this experience of all these mixed emotions coming in can be a mind fuck or painful. But really, yeah, coming back to at the root, like there's love there and we're, we're just trying to take care of ourselves. And with you, Kara, when you were talking about, um, how, when you noticed that you were just so angry for the self betrayal, you know, and then, but what, what you described was then like a forgiving of yourself, which I mean, eventually you got to a forgiving of yourself.
Eva: I don't know how long it took you, but that really struck me because I think I've, I've, I've also had similar realizations and I, and eventually I do get to forgiveness, but also it's really tempting to just stay in the anger. Like it's tempting to be like more hard on myself. 'cause I [01:22:00] can just be like, well, 'cause I'm really upset.
Eva: You know? I'm really disappointed that I would. Be so mean to myself. And, but at the end of the day, like what you were calling compassion, what I call love is like, that's the cure. Love, I think is the cure. I mean, that sounds maybe a little cliche or cheesy, but that's how I'm experiencing what both of you're saying.
Cara: Yeah. And, and I think there's something really important too, hear about the, the way that anger can feel good that is, is not to be dismissed because anger actually does, um, have a real important job of protecting us. And we don't only need the, the soft, let's cry with myself energy. We also need the actual boundary.
Cara: And the boundary doesn't have to come from a place of fuck you, you fucking asshole, you suck. It can come from a place of love, there can be [01:23:00] firmness that comes from a place of love. And this is where yang, when it's balanced with yin, is very, very powerful and helpful and, and creates real safety. So when we can heal and respect all of the parts of anger, we can actually benefit from the ener, the, the, the, uh, like the point.
Cara: Of anger, which is the boundary setting. So I can say to that guy in the woods, Hey, I gotta be by myself right now. And it doesn't have to be charged with, fuck you. Mm-hmm. It can just be
Kyley: clear. Clear. Mm-hmm. Yeah. And I think the more we resist the anger or the boundary or, or push past it, I experience that's when my anger actually hurts people.
Kyley: Right? Like with my kids, my, my, when I can recognize when I ignore my own boundaries and I give more than I actually want [01:24:00] to, um, in terms of like energy or letting them be loud and overstimulate the shit out of me or whatever. Like when I ignore my need for a boundary for too long, those are the times that I'm just a total bitch.
Kyley: Those are the times when I just like snap at them and they don't deserve that. And one of the things I've been like really intentional about for a while now, and it's like an ongoing practice, it's like I'll just say to my kids, I'm gonna, I am, I'm gonna get real cranky and it's not your fault, but it's about to happen.
Kyley: We have about five minutes before it happens. I need your help, so let's just all turn the volume down. Right. Um, but I used to not because I used to be like, well, it's not their fault. They're just being kids. They're just laughing. And that's all true. And also I was getting more and more and more wound up and then to all of a sudden I'm screaming at them for being kids and hap like, that's shitty.
Kyley: Yeah. But, but I think. Our anger. It's our anger is hurtful when we, the more we ignore it, [01:25:00] that's when I, I experience, that's when it does the most harm.
Eva: Yeah. Yeah. Oh, that's so good. Okay. I wanna ask a problem, maybe a final question 'cause I think we're gonna get to wrap up time soon, but, um, maybe it's more of a statement, um, in, in your year long meditation retreat, um, you had talked about how yeah, you were screaming a lot and I think in your interview that you did on 10% happier, you had said that you felt like you were experiencing the rage maybe for the collective.
Eva: Did you, do you, did you say something like that?
Cara: Yeah, I did. Can you speak more on that? Well, I am really glad that you asked this because I, I mentioned Karen Benevento earlier in this podcast who is like this incredible intuitive who I've been seeing for years. Like for most of my. You know, practice years.
Cara: Um, and that [01:26:00] she, she was meeting with me as much as I wanted, uh, when I was on that retreat. And that came from her. She was the one who kept on trying to tell me that this wasn't something that I was doing in isolation, or it wasn't even really something that I was doing to try to like, resolve my personal karma or something.
Cara: It was something that I had tapped into that was a collective experience. And she is, she's very funny. And she had this whole metaphor of me climbing into this hole that everyone knew was there, but nobody wanted to go down. And I went into the hole and everyone was like, Hey, Carl, what's down there? And I was like, shame, unbearable.
Cara: Amounts of shame. And, um, that I, I had gone and done this thing that nobody else wanted to do. 'cause it was way too intense and way too hard. And [01:27:00] it was serving the collective. It was, it was transforming, transmuting, stuck, blocked energy that everybody had, um, for everyone's benefit. And that was so helpful for me to hear and so comforting for me to hear because.
Cara: Maybe another manifestation of living in a society that's really individualistic is to think that we're just on our own personal healing journey. And we especially get that message driven home when we hear that happiness is an inside job and it's, you can't fix yourself through, you know, other people or make getting other people to change.
Cara: But that's not what it means. It doesn't mean that you're alone. Um, we're all connected and we feel other people's [01:28:00] stuff all the time. All the time. So there's nothing that we can point to that's like, that's just yours. That's like your anger pattern. We picked it all up from each other and not just now, but like be from eons ago.
Cara: And it got passed down from generation after generation to us. And so when we work on something for ourselves, we can't help but be working on it for everybody else. And it was abundantly clear to me, um, that I was connecting more deeply with everybody in the world through what I was doing there, because now I was really starting to understand what it is like to be a human and have all these experiences and to hurt and to have compassion and to.
Cara: And to feel stuck. And I came out of the retreat learning something that I wasn't expecting to learn. I think I was expecting to just feel better. [01:29:00] I actually, in some ways felt worse, but I felt okay about feeling worse in a way that I didn't realize that I could. You know, it's like I can just feel more stuff now, like I feel and I feel for all of us in a way that I couldn't before.
Cara: 'cause I didn't have capacity to, and I wasn't expecting that to come out of the retreat and I wouldn't have thought to ask for it. But it's been huge. And so I'm so grateful that I had that experience because now I just feel like I've become more fully landed in my human experience. And I'm not trying to run away from it or escape it or transcend it.
Cara: I'm just committed to being here and being alive. And that might be at the heart of this conversation about masculine and feminine energy is if we're just tipped into the doing and the yang and the trying to problem solve, then we're [01:30:00] actually trying to get away from life. If we're trying to escape it, we're trying to transcend it.
Cara: But if we're really grounded in, uh, wisdom and receptivity and listening and really fully being here, then we can land in our human experience and be more fully alive and committed to ourselves and committed to each other and committed to love.
Eva: Mm. Wow. Be beautifully said. I mean, I think that's a beautiful wind up to this conversation.
Eva: Yeah. And I'm, yeah, just really moved and I'm gonna wanna sit with some of what you've said for quite some time. Yeah. Yeah. Thanks. Is there, is there anything else that you wanna, um, well, a couple things. Is there anything else that we didn't ask you that maybe we thought you think we should have asked you before we do our wrap up of Joy?
Cara: Um, no. I mean, I think I [01:31:00] feel really good about our conversation. It was so fun and interesting and satisfying and especially when we talked about like, you know, giving birth on stage while, while you're spewing bodily fluids. We didn't say that, but I'm saying it now.
Eva: Yeah. Yeah. I will be watching Ali Wong this weekend.
Eva: That feels very much like my assignments. Yeah, that actually sounds like a great idea. That sounds like a great idea. Um, okay. And then before we do joy. Do you wanna share how people can find you and work with you or anything that you wanna promote?
Cara: Yeah. Um, my website is cara lai.org, C-A-R-A-L-A i.org.
Cara: And I have, um, drop-in meditation classes where we have little discussions and I give little teachings and we do some meditation, and those are just donation based, so anyone can come. One of them is specifically for [01:32:00] parents, so if you're a parent that's available and you can see my whole teaching schedule and find out where I'm teaching a retreat and come join me on one of those.
Cara: I also have a little online shop that has like really funny t-shirts that I designed, so that's all there. Amazing.
Eva: I love that. Okay. Awesome. Um, all right, so Joy, what's one thing that's bringing you joy right now, Cara?
Cara: Um, my son, who's two and a half, has gotten really into the F word lately.
Cara: There's a part of me that, that feels embarrassed and hates it, but there's a part of me that fucking loves it. It's just so cute. You know, like, who the F word could be so cute.
Kyley: Oh, I, especially
Cara: when he uses it incorrectly, like he, he. Yeah. Um, like, you know, ho holy fuck says fuck. He doesn't say fuck. He says,
Kyley: fuck.[01:33:00]
Cara: Oh my fuck. Oh my fuck.
Eva: That's so great. Yeah. Is this, is, is he dropping f bombs in public?
Cara: Oh yeah. Yeah. I mean, it was, especially, it was especially noticeable because our, our in-law and my parents were, were both visiting the past couple weeks, so we paid more attention to it and tried to redirect him. But, uh, the redirection only makes it worse.
Kyley: Yes, yes. This is very funny. 'cause I have the opposite end of the spectrum. My 8-year-old gets so, like, I, I swear all the time. Um, my 8-year-old is like, mom, why are you saying that word, mom? Why are you saying the F word?
Eva: Aw Desi. He's such a like little sensitive little soul. He's
Kyley: just a, you know, my, he's like got that split.
Kyley: Like he's one of those kids who's like equal parts rebel and rule follower, which is as one myself. I understand the tension. And so I think he just does, like, doesn't know what to do and he's like, but that's the rule that you're not supposed to break. I don't know how to feel about that because now I wanna [01:34:00] say it.
Kyley: And also I really don't.
Eva: That's great. No, that's a great joy. So cute. Yeah. There's actually nothing cuter than watching kids curse.
Kyley: Yeah.
Eva: Um, Eva, what's bringing you joy?
Kyley: My
Eva: love. Hmm. So, okay. Can I share, I'm gonna share two things. They came to my end on my walk this morning. Um, it's, I'm in Brazil and it's be, it's like becoming winter here, so it's getting colder.
Eva: But they have these flowers here that are kind of in like the Sunflower family and they just, this time of year, even as it becomes winter, it gets what they just burst all throughout, like, uh, the jungle and, and the city. And it's just yellow everywhere. And the name for it, I don't know, I can't remember the exact name of Portuguese, but it's translated to Hand of God, which I just think is such a beautiful name for, you know, like a big large yellow flower.
Eva: So that's really nice. And then the second thing that I wanna share that's joy is like, I think this is this thing I take for granted, but [01:35:00] me and my partner Tom, we spoon every night and we're like packed in like what I call like a Japanese ham sandwich, if you know what a Ja, it's like, everything's like really tightly pressed together.
Eva: And honestly spooning is this thing where it's like, it's always been kind of nice before with other people, but then you get uncomfortable and you're like, it's just, it didn't, doesn't always feel comfortable, but I'm like, with Tom, it is so comfortable and we fall asleep like that every night. It is so cute.
Eva: I'm like, and I just feel so held and safe and I'm like, wow, this is a pretty good life. Aw,
Cara: oh my God, I'm so happy for you right now. Thank you. Me too. Amazing. Yeah.
Eva: That's alright. Thanks. Okay, now I, now
Cara: I want a Japanese ham sandwich.
Eva: Yeah, they're so good. But you can't get them out here in Brazil to wait.
Eva: Do I go to Taiwan? Okay. Kylie, what's springing you joy right now?
Kyley: Um, my, one of my oldest friend's, best friends ever is visiting me. [01:36:00] They live on the side of the country and they're here for, they, they're here for a little over a week and they've done this for three years now, where they come and they, um, my house is too small to have a house guest for like, you know, that long.
Kyley: So they rent a little Airbnb around the corner and my kids are like, like, they just like, and uh, they love video games. And so my kids, and we're like, uh, you know, annoying parents that like, actually, you know, we, we don't have tablets or we're like kind of a little old school. And then Ray comes and they're just like, it's a video game bonanza with our besty ray.
Kyley: And, um, and they are just, it's so cute. It's so sweet how much my kids love this person that I have loved, right? This person, this human has held my heart for 22 years and now they're also just like loving all my kids. And I'm so grateful. I'm so grateful I, I'm here. I'm so [01:37:00] grateful that they come and come for this long.
Kyley: So like, the kids really get to know them well and it's just the sweetest watching your kids form their own bonds with people that you. You love, you know?
Eva: Yeah. Yes. Oh, I'm so happy for this sweetness in our life, in all our lives. Kara,
Kyley: thank you so much. Uh, I will be at one of your drop-in meditation things because literally just to two weeks ago I was like, I would love to go to a drop in meditation.
Kyley: I should find one of those online. So that's awesome. Yeah. I would love to see you there. So, so thanks for, uh, thanks for immediately arriving with the antidote.
Cara: Oh my God. Yeah. I'm so happy to, and it's really fun to hang out with you two. I I didn't, I, I feel like we
Eva: could
Cara: be buddies.
Eva: Oh, for sure. Anytime you wanna come back, if there's something you wanna share, if you have more great stories about screaming into the void, you're so welcome back.[01:38:00]
Eva: Yes. I, I will, I'll come back with more stories about
Cara: screaming to the void and more all
Eva: time favorites. Yeah.