This week's guest is Kaelan Strouse, Ecstatic Spirituality coach, author, speaker, & spirit guide. This is a good one — we’re talking about sex! The alive, erotic, and spirituality of it — and what prevents us from seeing the sacredness of sex.
This week's guest is Kaelan Strouse, Ecstatic Spirituality coach, author, speaker, & spirit guide.
This is a good one — we’re talking about sex! The alive, erotic, and spirituality of it — and what prevents us from seeing the sacredness of sex.
Follow Kaelan here -
Ecstaticself.com
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twitter.com/ecstaticself
instagram.com/kaelanecstaticself
ALCHEMY - https://www.kyleycaldwell.com/alchemy
Eva's instagram: @iamevaliao
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[00:00:00]
Kyley: All right. All right. Kaelan, welcome to the show. We are so jazzed to have you here.
Kaelan: I am very jazzed to be here with you.
Kyley: So we'll just jump in with our first question that we always ask, which is what is something that life is teaching you right now?
Kaelan: A couple of weeks ago, somebody introduced me to this blogger, a podcaster, YouTuber, writers work called the nap ministry, and I Her book is called Rest is Resistance. Yes, Tricia Hersey, I believe you say her name. And so rest is a big thing that I've been kind of mulling [00:01:00] over and reclaiming that. And especially for those of us who grew up being told your worth is tied to how much you produce, and always being working and contributing and growing to say rest can be spiritual, rest can be meaningful, rest can be enlightening, healing, joyful, all of that.
Kyley: Oh, yes. And not only The, uh, one of the things that I'm constantly learning is that rest doesn't need isn't a reward, right? It's just a way of being. It's not dessert. It's, it's, it's the required ingredient as, as, as, as humans. Um,
Eva: Yeah. And I would say a birthright, you know what I mean? I mean, which is different from what we are conditioned to believe, but I really do think, and therefore that's why I think it is a birthright. Resistance, rest is resistance in a beautiful way, resistance to the societal norms that keep us in suffering.
But also I love what you said about it is [00:02:00] definitely a spiritual practice, I think, for those of us who are so, um, tied, you know, tied into the capitalistic grind.
Kaelan: I think why it hit me so hard personally is I spent seven years living in an ashram and really diving deep deep into meditation spirituality, really trying to grow as a human being. And there was this really intense message around not resting, like you were supposed to be sleep deprived. Not supposed to take breaks.
You're not supposed to ever nap. And that was seen as like wasteful, that you've been given this gift of this human life, that you should be working and growing and napping, resting, sleep, even is for lack of a better term, sacrilegious. And to reclaim it as a spiritual tool has been, I hadn't ever heard anyone articulate it quite that way.
And I was pretty blown away.
Kyley: Oh.
Eva: Yeah.
Kyley: have so many questions. One is I'm [00:03:00] curious to know, maybe we'll get to this. I mean, I'm just, I'm putting this in the future parking lot of that experience of, um, uh, like the aesthetic life versus the spiritual practice of like, In like, what's the word I'm looking for? I want to say indulgence and that has, you know, seven sins vibe, but like the spiritual path of like soaking up life as, as deeply as possible, which is a little different than the path of the kind of aesthetic.
And obviously that feels very connected to sex and sexuality. Um, But then I also, the other piece that's coming alive for me is thinking about how when your work, your like means of being productive and earning a living are tied to the creative work of your heart and soul. There's a, there's a, and even if it's a bunch of, there's this complicated dissonance that can show up.
Because one of the things I say to, I have a five and a seven year old and my five year old is like always like, play with me, play with me. And I, and [00:04:00] I often, you know, I'm very intentional about like closing my computer and playing with her. And also like, Sometimes my work, I have to say to her, this is part of my play, right?
Sometimes this is actually more fun than Barbies and, and that is its own really insidious thing when, when being productive is also, uh, it can, it can warp. And so I guess the question that I wanted to ask you is how you're finding the balance of rest, even as your work is maybe playful and, and your, and your sacred work.
Kaelan: I love both of those. For the first one, and again, we can come back to this later, but just as kind of like I'm reclaiming rest as a positive thing, I would encourage us to maybe change the language instead of indulgence to maybe embodied. I think a lot of people in their spiritual path of you spirituality is something outside of themselves that they have to aspire to, and it's this tension between spirits and flash [00:05:00] and reclaiming that idea of spirit.
is here. Our spiritual path is being embodied, being fully in this human life and not trying to escape it, but seeing it as a gift. So I'd love to talk more about that. And then regarding your second point, first off, kudos to you for being a parent and also doing creative, self generated work. I know how all consuming my work is and I'm just a pet dad and I'm also, I'm also a husband.
So that relationship takes up a significant amount of time, But me and my husband frequently comment, if we also had a small human who is so dependent on us for nourishment, physically, emotionally, spiritually, mentally needs, our time needs, our focus, like, how would we get anything done? And so kudos to you and
Kyley: that's the answer. You wouldn't.
Kaelan: So I am, I'm amazed. And I think that actually does bring up a thing that a lot of spirit traditions often talk about that tension between [00:06:00] being a householder and being a quote unquote renunciate. Because if you are really investing in your family, do you have quote unquote time for spiritual work?
And I've seen people, of course, who can do it and do it absolutely beautifully, but it's not just like a little added challenge. It's a whole mountain of extra stuff that gets added to your daily plate. So kudos to you.
Eva: Yes. Can I just interject and say what one of my friends has said to me, which I really love is like the most, and I've said this to you Kylie before, but as a helpful reminder to maybe anyone else who's listening who is a parent is like, you talked about how becoming a parent was the most spiritual like exercise that you could possibly have as a human because it challenges you in all facets.
So just, you know, everything is spirituality on this podcast. And I'm sure Kaelan, you would agree with that. So it's like, and again, it's not, it's going back to the theme of like, it's not separate. It's actually like, what's right here is exactly the spiritual practice. And sometimes I'm like, mean, not, not really, I joke, but I'm like, I, if I was a parent, would I [00:07:00] be enlightened faster?
Like sometimes I do wonder that, cause it would just fucking jab at all of my things, right? You
Kyley: this goes back to the point you just made, Kaylin, right, that, that, that there's a really rich way that we can walk through our spiritual, our experience of being a human and spiritual being. You know, spiritual person to, to see our humanness and our body and the mess of our life as the gift, or we can see it as the distraction.
And it's, it goes either way, you know, with my kids sometimes, but, but when I have. When I can feel how the mess of it, the angst of it, the, there's not enough time in the day of it. When I see that as the gift and as the richness and as like the place where the living is happening, then it's a really rich, spiritual experience.
Um, and the falling away from that is also rich. Cause then I get to come back to it.
Kaelan: I know you said I can swear, so I'm gonna say fuck yeah. [00:08:00] I, I so love how you put this, both of you, like so beautifully, I, what you just said. Many people were like, oh what's my path, where, where are my search lessons? Well it's right here, what's being presented to you today, you're already on the path, and y'all put that so beautifully.
Eva: Thank you. And I, and I want to come back to this topic of, oh my God, can I just feel there's so much richness here? What you had brought up about how, how do I want to word this? Sometimes we can take in spirituality, like with rest and with sex and sexuality, in some schools of spiritual thought, these things are considered things that take you away from your spiritual practice and you need to renounce these things, the whole thing about like the ashram life, there is a rigidity to that, especially in Eastern, yes, like meditation culture.
When I, you know, when I go to these retreats, it's like, There's a lot of, it's intense, you know, it's this intense rigidity, [00:09:00] which I think can serve sometimes, but then it gets so distorted, so distorted that I think we end up having a really negative association with that. And so, and with sex, especially too, it's like, I think sex is also a spiritual experience and it, it's meant to be, I think I just feel saddened by this fact that it's become, it can be this thing that, Is separate from our spiritual lives and not only separate, but like really, really, um, demonized.
And so I think, I don't know if I have a question in there. I think I just want to talk about those polarities, um, and the integration of each.
Kaelan: Yes to all of that.
Eva: We're really coming at your heart with just
Kaelan: Oh,
Eva: big ideas,
Kaelan: this is what gets my skin tingling, I love all these kinds of topics, so yes. I think there's a time and place for all And [00:10:00] I'm a big believer. Use the word polarity. I love the word polarity because for me, it's this idea of not either or, but and. Light and dark. Masculine and feminine. High and low.
Yes and no. And I truly find that the further I go along my path, it's not one is true and the other is not. It's both are true, and they can be in direct opposition, and that does not mitigate their independent truths. In fact, I think the ability to hold conflicting truths is a sign of personal maturation and growth.
So yes, there are times where rigid discipline, renunciation, focusing on something more constructive may be beneficial for your path. One of the things I really try to hold a lot of grace for is seeing the truth, and I know this sounds trite because everybody says it, but seeing the truth in all spiritual paths, all religions, all journeys, because we are at all at different stages in our development and our exploration of These bodies, these [00:11:00] lifetimes, and we may need different things at different times.
And a metaphor that I often use is if you give the same rules that a graduate student is expected to follow to first graders, it would be disaster. And conversely, if you gave the rules that first graders are expected to follow to people in their mid twenties and thirties, it would be an absolute disaster.
And so, for people
Kyley: maybe all of our 20 year olds, I mean, 20 year old Kylie could have used some freedom to act like a seven year old. She was very uptight.
Kaelan: Maybe not the hall pass and permission to go to the bathroom.
Kyley: Right. Right, right, right, right, right. The more of this, like dig in the dirt and like make weird noises when you want to, you know,
Kaelan: Oh, that, absolutely, yeah. One of my favorite ideas. This is ideas to be innocent, wise, and 95. That we bring our child likeness. Into our adulthood, so play and silliness and everybody being an artist. Yes, absolutely all that. [00:12:00] Being told when I can pee or not,
Kyley: you're right.
Kaelan: Um, so I never, I never begrudge when people need something that feels in opposition to my truth.
And. I think we as a culture, and I know many people say this, but we as a culture have been evolving, and we have been moving away from more rigid, dogmatic ideas, and I do feel like we are going through growing pains, why it's so difficult in our world right now, but ideally could emerge into the space that is more free, maybe a little less rule bound, like middle school, elementary school, where we realize that Divinity is not out there.
It has always been here. And so realizing the sanctity of the human experience, I shudder when I think about how a lot of faith traditions view the body as something to be suppressed or escaped. We see in medieval times mortification of the [00:13:00] flesh as an extreme example of that, but that has continued in many ways in current times.
We certainly see it with the oppression of women's bodies and. Current times as well. But instead of saying this body is something that has to be transcended, we see you may be, depending on your vantage, worked many lifetimes to be given the gift of a human body. And your goal isn't to try and escape it, it's to realize that this is the most magical place you get to be, because you can experience so many things.
In many different faith traditions, they talk about the human incarnation being in the middle, not in the heavenly realm or the more earthy or darker realms, but being in the middle and you can experience it all. And in that middle place is where liberation occurs. So I don't want to escape my humanity, although I did when I was younger, very much.
Now I want to be fully human and I want to say yes to everything that it involves. And that means deconstructing some of the rules, many of the rules, because [00:14:00] society overall is still caught up in this dogmatic black or white, yes or no, right or wrong sort of vantage.
Kyley: I'm getting goosebumps as we're talking about this. Go ahead. Well,
Eva: Well, okay. I'm like, I have like a one, one focus mind right now, which is like all about sex. Cause I'm like, okay, let's talk about what the, what that's like, um, in terms of, People's experience with sex and sexuality, because I just want to make a note, Kaelan, and also for our listeners that Kylie and I have been doing this podcast for four years.
And I don't think we've had any podcasts that just focused like on sex before, which is mind blowing and wild to me because I love talking about sex, but it's come up, right? Would you say like here and there, Kylie, we make, we make jokes.
Kyley: It's come up, it's been like a sub, it's been a topic that's come up organically in conversations, but you made, we set our intentions at the beginning of this season, we did this lovely like ritual, we set intentions, and Eva was like, this is the season where we start talking about sex. Why is it not front and center?
So you made this happen, my friend.[00:15:00]
Eva: Yes. Thank you. Thank you for being the initiator. And, and because also again, making that connection with how sex, sex and spirituality. Yeah. And I would, I guess I just want to know, I don't know, do I, do I, do you have a question in there, Kylie? Maybe
Kyley: Yeah, I think, um, I'm really curious to, to talk a little bit more, a couple of things that are coming to my mind, but one is like, what is the process look like of, of the unraveling so that we can drop into, I don't know, a more sacred relationship with, with sex. I don't know if that's the word that you would use, but, um, but if someone, if someone is, Okay, actually two different things that are coming in and I think they probably meet in the middle.
I think that there's sometimes an experience where we might be someone who really loves sex, but it doesn't feel spiritual, right? It's somehow like there's a [00:16:00] wall up where like, this is the fun thing I get to do, but it, but, but it's somehow separate than like your meditation practice. And then I also think there are a lot of people who are deeply spiritual and maybe have a very.
A complicated relationship with sex and maybe don't enjoy it or don't enjoy as much as they want to. There's probably more of a Venn diagram and these probably are not actually polarities also. And so I think I'm curious to know what that kind of pathway in. Is looks like if you either enjoy, but don't have a lot of spiritual associations with it, or if you are spiritual, but are not sure how much you like sex,
Kaelan: I love all this. I'd love to start answering this question by sharing a little bit of my journey coming to terms with that. So a little bit more about my background. I was very sex negative when I was younger. I grew up in a household where sex was Not something comfortable, and growing up being queer, um, I'm [00:17:00] married to a man I identify as being somewhere in the bisexual spectrum.
It didn't feel like a safe space for me, and I grew up being very bullied and very socially ostracized, so I didn't have an opportunity to engage romantically, sexually with people. I just didn't feel welcomed in that space. So I was a virgin until I was 25. Didn't even kiss anyone until I was 25. I got involved in yoga and meditation while in college and moved into the ashram right after graduating, so around age 22, right before I turned 22.
And while that yogic tradition identified as being tantric, it identified as being classically tantric, which meant they said, all those sexual things, no, no, we don't do them. We like visualize them in our meditation practice, but you don't actually do it. And then when I left this community and started exploring on my own, I started to do more research and reading and listening to other very cool people.
And along that exploration came [00:18:00] across the Vajrayana Buddhists, which had always been a little bit part of my practice, but they were basically doing the same thing as the tradition I was a part of, which was Kashmir Shaivite, but on the other side of the Himalayas. And the Vajrayana Buddhists had a more unbroken spiritual tradition
Kyley: did you say that word again? Cause I already want to go read about it later. Can you the, what kind of Buddhist?
Kaelan: Vajrayana.
Kyley: Vajra. Okay. Thank you.
Kaelan: And the, the, the Indians had a lot of colonialism, a lot of suppression of their spiritual traditions by the Brits and other groups where the Tibetans didn't have so much. And so you look at their unbroken tradition and you see that the sexual practices actually still are very much a part and parcel of the work that they do. There's a wonderful author, Dr. Nita, he's written a couple. Wonderful books. I attended one of his workshops and he is a true wisdom holder in that specific tradition. And so it started
Eva: I interject already and ask, what do you [00:19:00] mean when you say it was part of their, uh, the part of their practice? Like it sounds like it was alive within
Kaelan: yeah. So if you read his books, he talks about one using visualization in your meditation where you're having sex with a bikini or a bodhisattva that you would engaged in partnered sexual experiences and Feeling yourself being the embodiment of an enlightened being or your partner being an embodiment, certain sexual techniques to cultivate energy, working with different energy centers, exchanging your energy centers.
Working in the energy flow between the two of you and so on and so forth.
Eva: Wow, I, I've never heard of this before. Wow.
Kaelan: Yeah, I don't think it's typically a widespread idea in the West, probably not even in most of the world. But encountering that started to open my eyes of like, oh, all this stuff that I've kind of heard isn't just theoretical, it can also be very practical. And then during that process, I also had [00:20:00] Done my coming out, I ended up into meaningful relationships, eventually met my husband, and have been together now for nine years, which has been wonderful.
But I moved from being in the space that was very sex phobic, viewing it as not being spiritual, viewing myself as a little righteous because I, you know, didn't indulge or I didn't permit myself to go into those spaces. And not to say you can't be celibate and not be righteous, I believe that is Entirely possible.
Wasn't for me at that
Kyley: is such a great indicator that we're defending something, right? That like, there's a, there's like a little monster in the background, a little gremlin when we're, that righteousness is such a great tell.
Kaelan: Oh, yeah. Oh, yeah. And so that began to kind of crack the nut for me and start to expose what was with inside. Fundamentally, I believe that the spiritual journey that we all go on is one from contraction to expansion. And in that process of moving from contraction to expansion, we have to break through the barriers, the walls that keep us [00:21:00] enclosed.
Those things that maybe make us feel safe, but eventually start to feel like a prison. And that means dismantling our reality. Often, many times as we continue to grow and expand, and one of those realities for me was around sex and sexuality. What is right? What is wrong? What is proper? What is improper?
What is holy? What is sinful? And I started to realize that, as I've now said a couple of times, I think this body is a gift. It's meant to be enjoyed. One of my favorite things to say is even in the West, in Abrahamic traditions, we hear people say you're made in God's image. Well, if you're made in God's image, that means that God has sexual organs.
That means that God enjoys pleasure, or procreates. There are traditions that say the universe is spawned from God making love to itself. And that has been very much my experience. As I've worked on this expansion and dismantling my beliefs and what do I feel is right versus what a society told me is right, a big thing for me is around my body.[00:22:00]
I understand why we wear clothes. I understand why we keep our bodies covered. But I also look around and see that it's created an element of disconnection. In most traditional cultures, you would have times and places where you would gather with your community members naked. And connect in that way. In fact, when I was 23 or 24, I went with one of my friends I'd been close with for years, since we were freshmen in high school, and we got naked together at a Korean spa.
And even though we had known each other for years, and it wasn't sexual, just baring our bodies to each other, we left feeling more deeply connected than we had ever been. And I started to, you know, Explore this line of thinking and saying, I look around this world and we're disconnected. We're addicted to technology because it's filling a void.
It's, it's giving us candy when we're hungry or when we're looking for meaningful connection. And how do we reconnect? And while yes, clothes are necessary to keep us warm, to keep us protected. There are moments where we don't want attention on our body, of [00:23:00] course, but it's also a barrier. And when I allow myself to be truly seen, because I, I believe being seen Is one of the joys and one of the needs in this human life to see another person and to be seen yourself, I feel more valuable.
I feel more respected. I feel more loved. I feel more honoring of that other person. Let's look back at the ancient Greeks. It was totally appropriate to walk out of your house naked except for a cloth of piece of fabric over your arm because you felt beautiful walking out that way. Like how would our society be different if we respected each other enough that you were allowed to walk out embodied, embracing your physical body, knowing that you would be treated well and respected, that you weren't worried about being objectified or molested or treated discerningly, but respected and seen, how much more would we feel connected as a society?
How much more, in a good way, vulnerable would we feel with each other? [00:24:00] And then when we take it a step beyond bodies and start to move it into intimacy and connection and touch, I believe that is, again, a profound need. that we have, not just as humans, but as life forms. The so many spiritual traditions talk about this idea that when the world was created, the very first thing that cosmic consciousness did was divide into two halves.
And that two halves then created the manifold universe. And so we can see from Plato, through many different traditions, this idea of there being this origin of love, this origin of connection, this origin of seeking our mirror, seeking our other. And so, when we get vulnerable, and we engage with another person, There is magic there, there is divinity there, there is soul there, there is reconnection there.
When I make love, it's not just a physical act, but it's a touching of souls. And I feel like what, why sex is so difficult, [00:25:00] and why it's such a bad rap, is people are largely unaware of the energetics around sex. Or largely have not been on their own healing journeys to the extent that they need to. And they approach sex with a lot of need, a lot of desire, or a lot of fear.
And then that prevents the connection from happening. One of the things I see very, very common in the gay community in particular is so many men hungering for connection, desiring real intimacy. And at the same time being so afraid of it and being unwilling to let it in. And so what do they do? They have a fucking lot of sex, or a lot of fucking.
And it's that, it's that bid for connection. But when you're both fearing and desiring the same thing, you can't pull it in. Because honestly, sex is the most intimate thing we can do. It is physically allowing another person's body inside your own, or yours inside another person's body. And so that [00:26:00] is meaningful.
And when we aren't getting our connection needs met. On a social level, we're going to try and fill it, proverbially or literally, as best we can. And so people will jump to the most extreme thing, which is sexual connection. And that's where I think we get the idea of sex being unfulfilling. Because when you're guarded and you're trying to be intimate with another person, how is it ever going to be deeply meaningful?
But if we can work to strip away our own blocks, our own fears, our own tensions, and approach someone in a raw way. vulnerable, meaningful, desiring of connection way, then it is one of the most transportive, euphoric, integrating, healing experiences. I know I have been healed so much from the good lovemaking I've had in my life.
And I also have been injured by the not good lovemaking in my life. It is powerful. And [00:27:00] I think so many people are Longing for it but don't know how to do it. I just hosted a retreat in February where intimacy and connection was a part of the work we were doing over the five days we were together. But I didn't let anyone in the room take off their clothes because I knew if I said, hey, get naked and start fondling each other's bits, people probably wouldn't have any issue with that.
But they would skip over all the meaty work in between. And what was so interesting to me is we'd be in this group where maybe the exercise was I'll have someone to truly hold you. You know? Like, just allow them to embrace you and relax into their embrace and allow yourself to be held. And I've got people who are 52 years old, breaking into tears and sobbing because they, they can do it, but it's so meaningful, it's so impactful. But if I had asked them, you know, like, Hey, get this guy off. They would have no issue. There would have been no emotional release because they skip over that, those intermediary steps [00:28:00] and jump right into the sexual. And so I believe that this is where the spirituality lies. It's not about fucking or being fucked.
It's not about the act of sex itself. It's about what you both said so beautifully is the sacredness is here. The work is here, right where you are. And so when you make a good for connection with another person, are you willing to connect with your most? Healed, most enlightened, most open, most expansive self that is willing to see and be seen, willing to touch and be touched, not just physically, but on a soul level, be willing to be vulnerable, be willing to be intimate and to treat each other like the embodiment of the divine that they are.
And that doesn't mean you can't be Ralph. It doesn't mean you can't be wild. You absolutely can, but can you see the divinity here and now and use that as a tool for joy, love, growth, healing. Peace, because I think we've all had the experience where [00:29:00] really good lovemaking leaves us better. It leaves us kinder, more relaxed, more open, more trusting, more loving.
And those are the qualities I want to see more of in the world.
Kyley: mm.
Eva: my goodness. So beautiful. I'm actually like getting emotional hearing you speak of this because. I just, I know what it's like to, I think I'm really recently been thinking about the topic of intimacy and I know how important it is to feel fully fulfilled as a human being. Like intimacy is so powerful and intimacy, I don't necessarily mean sex.
It's like, The seeing of somebody clearly, and then also letting yourself, someone else see you. It is so vulnerable and it is so powerful. It is like, is, and I think you've alluded to this Kaylin, but this is what we're all really craving. That sort of [00:30:00] deep connection. And it's, and I feel saddened when I also know that not everyone has access to this kind of intimacy. And then, and then I'm additionally moved by how I have also experienced how sex is. just be such a beautiful portal to that level of intimacy, the kind of intimacy that I think can, can change you in the way that you've talked about, where you feel held and safe and open and trusting and playful.
It's like, it's so,
Kyley: Euphoric, right? Like the Yeah. Yeah.
Eva: Yeah. And it's just, it's just really lovely to hear somebody talk about sex in this way. Um, I think even this is healing for many of us.
Kaelan: And then I want to reflect on something you just said. And I want to do it by asking the question, what is sex?
Kyley: Mm.
Kaelan: And that might sound like a really simple question, but I actually think [00:31:00] it's a very difficult thing to answer, because I think, let's go back a few years, traditionally, sex would have been defined as penile vaginal intercourse.
And I think we've grown as a society enough to say, well, it encompasses quite a bit more than that, and depending on your body, depending on your orientation, that may never be something you do in your sexual life. So where do we draw the line of what is sex? Is mutual masturbation sex? Is Uh, naked massage sex is intimate eye gazing where you're being fully vulnerable sex.
Because as you just alluded to, it can feel more intimate to sit across the table from somebody and let your guard down, let your walls down, and allow yourself to be seen and to see them. And that can feel more intimate than being fucked, depending on the situation. So what are we qualifying as sex as being?[00:32:00]
Eva: Mm. Interesting. Do you have an answer to that for yourself?
Kyley: You asking
Kaelan: I say all of it.
Eva: Oh, I think Okay. Calin, I don't, I don't have an answer. I was, I was, yeah.
Kaelan: I say all of it. So, probably TMI, but we'll talk a little bit about
Eva: Oh, good. We love TMI. Yes. Give us all the
Kyley: worry, we're all just, I'm just warming up for the TMI chapter. Don't worry.
Kaelan: So, both me and my husband identify as tops. And both of us are absolutely terrible bottoms, and he physically cannot, he has some health issues where it's just painful and sometimes bloody, so we just don't go there. So, for many people, they'd say, well, how do you make your sex life work then? That just sounds like an impossible situation.
I've even had people say, Say, I wouldn't even have said yes to the first date if I knew that that person
Eva: Mm
Kaelan: that quote unquote incompatible sexually to me. But I will tell you, I have had the best sex of my life with my husband, and routinely do, [00:33:00] because sex for us isn't about fucking. Though it can be, it can be sometimes.
It isn't even necessarily about cumming, it isn't necessarily about getting off in that of times sex for us could be Amir, I want to hold you, and I want to touch you, and I want to feel you breathe with me. It might mean sitting at dinner and making eye contact with each other and it feeling so erotic that it feels inappropriate that we're looking at each other in a restaurant. We have sex. multiple times a day, but rarely does it look like insert penis here and go to town. It can be a much more expansive definition of sex. And so me and my husband like to say, yeah, we make love all day. It just doesn't mean we have our pants down and are doing the deed as
Eva: Yes.
Kyley: Well, the thing that's beautiful about that, too, is it's also more fun that way. Right. Like when someone with a busy schedule and like, [00:34:00] you know, got to wait till bedtime or whatever. Right. Uh, you know, or like blue is up really loud. Like you gotta, like
Eva: Mm-Hmm.
Kyley: you. There's, there's, I mean, okay, so now I'll share some TMI, which is like, there's an element of like scheduling this shit in our life, right?
Because that's the reality of like having a busy schedule. If it's a thing you care to prioritize and there's a way that can be really dry, right? There's a way that it can be like, all right, this is on the calendar now. Okay. Or there's a way that that can be like so delicious and playful when you can let it be what you're speaking to, which is like, like, This, this game of a day or a couple of days of, of intimacy and of making love without the, like, you know, peak act that also then brings so much richness and presence and, um, [00:35:00] and care to that moment.
Um, And, uh, I guess I'm, I'm loving, and that has been very much for over the past for years now, that's very much been the, the journey I've actually been with my husband since I was 18 years old. Uh, yeah, so, uh, we, we laugh all the time. Like we dated for a decade and we're like, I guess we're, I guess we should have a party.
I guess this, I guess this is gonna, I guess we're sticking around. Um, and. One of my favorite things about us and one of the things that I am like, honestly, so fucking proud of us for is that, like, we just had the best sex I've ever had last week. Right? Like, there's no, What a, what a, what a convenient story, right? That like long monogamous relationships can turn stale and dry. And, and I think there's many layers to, to how we have accomplished that, but a big part of it is the thing that you're speaking to, which is like [00:36:00] letting, letting intimacy and romance and. And, um, connection through the physical, just extend beyond this one moment in the bedroom of, you know, P and the V,
Eva: Yeah.
Kyley: right.
And I just think it's so important, but it's not, but it's a thing that we don't, um, We don't center or we talk about as like foreplay, right. Which is just another way of like, it can, even the conversation about it can sometimes be like a box that you check instead of like, no, how is your life and your relationship, a game of like intimacy and vulnerability and, and touch.
I don't know. I don't have a convenient way to wrap this up, but I'm just really relishing what you're speaking to.
Kaelan: I would love to reflect back to something you said earlier, which is this idea that many people don't view their sex life as something spiritual. And then you also brought up this [00:37:00] idea of Spiritual life happens where you are. And so if we start to change the paradigm in our mind to say, I can choose to see literally everything in my day and in my life as being a spiritual act, treat it as an act of devotion, treat it as an act of self realization, treat it as an act of connection with the world around me in a meaningful way, then why should it stop at the bedroom door?
When I take care of my dogs and I take them for a walk, that isn't a spiritual act. When I am editing a YouTube video. That can be a spiritual act. When I masturbate, that can and ideally should be a spiritual act, that I do everything in my life as for my betterment. And I think when you adopt that mindset, you, one of you were saying this earlier, this idea of seeing even the painful stuff in your life as being a gift, and to say, thank you universe.
And that's frankly something I do. Every time, I have a sexual experience too. When I'm done, if I'm by myself, I say, thank you body, thank you [00:38:00] universe for this joy, for this pleasure. Every time me and my husband make love, we always end by saying thank you to each other. Like, why not? Why do we contain spirituality to just the bounds of certain activities or certain locations or certain aspects of our life, instead of, if we're going to talk the talk, then walk the walk and say, I am.
An aspect of God incarnate. I am divine that every aspect of this creation is divine. And last thing I had to go back, toss it back to you, but we already dove into this idea of polarity and nothing is good or bad. All everything is one and everything is part of. The creation that we're exploring, if we start to dismantle this, this idea of rightness and wrongness, dirty or spiritual, and we extend it to every aspect of life to see there, there is nothing on this planet, nothing creation that isn't spiritual.
And even the most terrible things [00:39:00] that I hope that or Hein or anyone has to ever experience. That too is spiritual, even the people who hurt each other as much as I think hurting another living being is so wrong. There is an aspect of spirituality in that, to see that we are all souls on this adventure we signed up for to explore this reality that we are co creators in. And it may not be a type of reality that I choose to engage in, but if I can see the divinity in all aspects of life, then it gives me permission to see divinity in all aspects of me and all the things I do. It's not about right or wrong, it's about where you're looking from and where your perspective is.
That's what defines right or wrong.
Kyley: There's this quote quote roomy quote about the keep showing up. I just read on the podcast like last week about, um, uh, out beyond right or wrong. There is a field I'll meet you there. So I'm loving this theme is coming back in. And that actually brings me to one of the topics that I wanted to discuss, which [00:40:00] I think when we make some, because we have this, you know, uh, division of right and wrong and good and bad.
We, If we want, so we put, you know, sex in the dirty category and then spirituality over here in the light category. So then I think sometimes we have this experience like, okay, well, you know what? Yeah, sex can be spiritual. I'm going to let it come over here. And then I think there's a temptation sometimes to like scrub it clean, right?
That you can, spiritual sex is making love. You can't fuck and be spiritual, right? And you already said that that's not true, but I would really, as someone who loves to fuck, I would just love to like, Uh, make some space around how we can really allow for, um,
Eva: Fucking, fucking to be spiritual.
Kyley: and like really, and also I think specifically giving ourselves space if that feels uncomfortable and how we might like let more of it in, if that makes sense.
Kaelan: Yeah, I think [00:41:00] it goes down to this idea of mutual agreement with whoever is co creating reality with, because if you were somebody who hears you articulate what you just said so beautifully and was like, well, that's a bunch of bullshit. I'm just here to get pounded. You're, you're, you're going to probably struggle to find,
Kyley: Um,
Kaelan: find that in it.
And honestly, that's part of the reason that me and my husband are mostly monogamous. Like, we opened up our relationship a couple years ago, but we basically only have sex with each other just because it's the biggest reason is it's challenging to find people who are willing to see it in that way.
Right. And, As somebody who identifies as an empath and a highly sensitive individual, I struggle in physical contact, not even necessarily psychological contact, with people who aren't doing a lot of internal housekeeping. Like, it just doesn't, doesn't feel like a good experience. Like, I can see somebody and say, Wow, your body is beautiful.
Like, Cover model. Yeah, girl, get it. Beautiful. But once I get into intimate interaction with you, which may just be a conversation, and I just notice how my body's starting to feel, [00:42:00] I'm like, Mmmmm. Yeah, you were cuter when you were standing over there.
Eva: Uh,
Kaelan: And, and to have that presence, and that's a hard thing to learn, I have that presence to discern what my lusty, aroused, attracted self is feeling.
Mmm. Versus what the rest of thing is feeling because yeah, I could part of me can be turned on, but if energetically internally I'm just feeling like crap as I continue to move towards greater intimacy with you and I don't like how this is feeling to say you just are not the right person for me right now.
Maybe it's where I'm at, maybe it's where you're at, I don't need to judge, but just asserting that you're co creating together, and you're inviting an experience of someone else's energy. You're inviting them to experience your energy and having respect to say, yeah, I can, I can go and have a raunchy time.
I can go and just fuck like animals, but are they in a place where they can actually nourish me? And am I in a [00:43:00] place where they can accept my nourishment? And it'd be okay to say, you know what, this just isn't right for me because ideally I want to leave every sexual experience feeling bettered. And a lot of times when I've pushed myself into experiences because of expectations, or I thought I wanted this, so you might as well just go through with it, and I get into it, and I'm like, ugh, I'm not enjoying this as much as I thought.
And then I'm like, why did I do it? Why did I do this? And my husband laughs at me because he's seen me actually in the middle of something being like, I'm good, you guys have some fun, I'm gonna, I'm gonna go. And Um, I, you know, I never want to make anyone feel rejected, like I'm very sensitive to that, especially somebody who's experienced a lot of rejection in this younger life.
Um, I don't ever want someone to feel belittled or wrong, but I also want to take care of me and respect me enough [00:44:00] to say I am responsible for my actions, I'm responsible for my choices, and I have the authority to say no. I also have the authority to say yes. And to really constantly check in with myself about those things.
Kyley: I have a question. I'm, I think I'm monopolizing the questions, Eva, but I'm gonna explore because this is a big
Eva: I'll come after you.
Kyley: Okay. Um, so I think a lot of people who, and I think I can speak specifically for the experience of, of, of being a woman I'm, you know, by, um, but, um, but I know that this is not universal to, to women that if you have An experience of trauma around sex that there and you are, you have been conditioned to be people pleasing to say yes to things there can be this really coercive.
Thing that can happen in your own psyche, even in safe, intimate relationships, right? So not even as the other part, but where, where [00:45:00] the pressure of should and the expectation to, um, to say yes, um, can, um, really kill your libido. And I actually think that I have a personal theory that I think a lot of women who struggle with libido and like in relationships, sometimes it's about like how much space you really, how deeply do you, how deeply do you have access to know?
Because if you had really, really, really profound access to know, would that open? Yes. Back up for you. Um, and. And I am wondering how for the person who might be in an, like, you know, in the warm up right in the moment of like some amount of yes has happened and, and it might again, it might be with someone who is an emotionally safe person, or it might not be it depends.
And there's that sense of like, one, how can you maybe identify that like. Oh, I might be acting out of should or expectation or some kind of like people pleasing [00:46:00] behavior. How might you recognize that in the moment? And how might you give yourself permission to actually really drop your sacred no into the middle of the space?
Kaelan: That is such a beautiful reflection and question. So thank you for bringing that up. I'd like to start with this idea that self knowing, especially when we're talking about in regards to our sexuality, It is never just one thing. It is layered. It is deep. I often experience my sexual center as being like a series of underground caves filled with water.
And they're continually unfolding to me. They're continually different, depending on how the light hits them. And it's always flowing and changing. I'm discovering new rooms. And just when I think I've mapped out my sexuality, I discover a new level and it starts to change. And so first is Do you think [00:47:00] ourselves have permission to say what I'm in search of knowing?
In some respects, it's not entirely knowable. I will never know the totality of me. Especially in regards to sexuality, because if you believe in reincarnation, this extends past our current lifetime, but even just within our current lifetime. All of the interactions we've had, which were not even necessarily sexual, but that played on gender roles.
That played on how you're supposed to behave. What does a good boy or a good girl do? It plays on attraction. That I felt attracted to this person or they felt attracted to me in some way. All of that has added layers and curves to our sexual center. And so all of that comes into play when we, Step into connection with another person, and it's going to be ever evolving and ever changing.
And this leads me to another idea, which is at the end of the day, we have to take responsibility [00:48:00] for our own feeling and how we show up. And I'm going to share a quick little anecdote. When I was in my early 20s, I had studied acting in college, and I was working at this really big equity theater, and I was really excited to be there.
It was like, quote unquote, like a big break of sorts. And at this point, I was still fully celibate. I hadn't even made out with anyone yet, and I had noticed that one of the people in charge of this Uh, who was directing the show, kept treating me really poorly and like in a very demonstrative way where it felt very intentional and I hadn't done anything wrong.
And I started to suspect, or at least in hindsight, realize that there was some sexual dynamics in play around domination. And then shortly before opening, this person pulled me aside and said, I just want to let you know, I didn't hire you because I thought you were talented or thought you were good for this role.
I hired you because, and then leered [00:49:00] at me. And my whole body began to shake and quiver. Years later, this person ended up getting removed from this theater because of all these sexual, uh, unfortunate happenings. And I had several people who had been close to me who heard this story call me and say, this must be really traumatizing for you to see all this coming into the news, because this really affected you at that time when you were a young man.
And it was very empowering for me to get to say, actually, no, I'm totally fine. I've totally. I've forgiven this person, I've moved on, I'm, I'm really very healed in this area. And a big part of that is, along my spiritual journey, I've learned that the mantle of victim never served me. Like, in the moment, it felt very empowering to say, well, I didn't do anything wrong, it was all them.
But what is challenging about adopting the mantle of the victim is you then have to, by the very nature of the role, give away all of your power. They had all the power, I had none. And [00:50:00] in order for me to reclaim my power, then I have to let go of the name of the victim. And I believe at the end of the day, I am responsible for my own healing.
These friends were calling me, were like, did he ever apologize? Did he ever do something? I was like, no, and frankly, it doesn't matter because it wasn't about me. And as personal as I felt in that moment, this was done to lots of people. What was personal to me is it was my experience. I don't want to give him the right and the power to give me my healing.
I want to claim my healing for myself. And it was a really nice moment of reflection for myself to say. You're now able to show up as a better person for your partners, for your sexual experiences, for life in general. And so why I bring this up is this idea of If you know for yourself that you're walking into a sexual dynamic, and there's all these myriad of voices, and you're not sure where something is coming from, you have to [00:51:00] claim responsibility for your healing journey.
Realizing that it is ongoing will never reach a point of perfect healing. It is always ongoing. And one of the ways I do that, when you ask about how do you give yourself permission, is I envision inside of myself as an internal committee. Kind of like that Pixar film, Inside Out, where, you know, there's all the little aspects of identity sitting around a control center. And I will ask, okay, how many on the committee want to say yes? And maybe it's, Five people on the committee. How many on the committee want to say no? Five people say no. And how many are abstaining? Another five are abstaining. Let's say, okay, we're not in consensus here, so maybe at this moment I should say no.
Because I can always re approach this later when we're all in consensus. And this idea of agreement internally, for me it's not just about sex, it's about how I try to do everything in life. When I see people saying, oh, I really want to make I really want to start hitting the gym more. I want to diet. I want to achieve this goal in my career.
And then they fail at it [00:52:00] time and time again. One of the things I often say is, okay, well, clearly a part of you really wants this. Why don't you sit with your internal committee and ask, does everybody want it? Because if I've, Parts of you are pulling this way, and five parts of you are pulling this way, you're not going to move.
If you've got ten parts of you pulling this way and one person pulling this way, you might be moving, but it's really hard. How do you develop consensus internally? And once you have that consensus, change is so much easier. Then things start to flow, which is a word I think we all love, like entering that state of flow.
But if I enter a space, let's say, and I can give you a good example of this. I remember when I was Dating, and still wasn't really into hooking up, I went on a date with this guy who clearly wanted to hook up, and he was beautiful. Like one of the most physically stunning guys I had been out with at that time.
He was smart, he was rich, he was polite. [00:53:00] Like it was like everything externally. Was like, yes, yes, yes, yeah. And there was a big part of me who was like, flattered and turned on, like, yes! But there was a big part of me when I was interacting with this person, which was just a hard no. And I allowed myself to be taken into his bedroom and I allowed myself to get naked.
And it was the first time I ever couldn't get an erection. And I took a breath and I sat with myself and I said, Not all of you wants to be here right now, I doubt that. And my internal self said, no.
Kyley: No.
Kaelan: And then the other part where it's like, but he's so attractive, you should be so flattered that he wants you.
It's like, part of me is,
Kyley: Um. Um.
Kaelan: And so after making out with this guy for a couple months, I said, you know what? All I really want to do right now is just give you a massage, would that be okay?
Kyley: Um.
Kaelan: think we need to call it a day. And, in hindsight, I'm really glad I made that decision.
In hindsight, [00:54:00] afterwards, I think I spent some time, like, doing some Google search, and I was like, hmm, part of you was picking up on something. Part of you was, in fact, right, you did not want to be there. And so, if everyone, if anyone ever gives you this ultimatum of like, oh, you need to have sex with me now or the door is closed, it's better to let that door close.
Because if it's somebody who is really going to see you and appreciate you and love you and value you, even if it's love you and value you for one night. That's fine. If you see them like, hey, I'm just having some internal conflict, and I really want to come from a place where I can say enthusiastically yes to this experience, and it's just not yes right now, do you mind, can we check in later?
If they're unwilling to say no, it's either now or not, then that is somebody you should definitely be saying no to because they're not respecting and honoring you. And so that's something I'm trying to give myself grace for is to say, if my internal committee is not reaching consensus, then I need to wait until consensus is reached.
And then I find if I'm all on [00:55:00] board about a decision, whatever it is, where to go on holiday, where to travel to, Once I'm fully on board with that consensus, then things flow effortlessly and easily. I have a great time. I feel enthusiastic about it, but when there is doubt internally, as best I can, I try to do nothing and wait until clarity is reached.
Kyley: And okay, I love your story. And I think what happens, I mean, your whole thing about the committee, it's like you're speaking my love language here. Uh, when You know, if you have some parts of yourself that are, are offering some kind of resistance and you really, often that is a part of you to the point of like the victim experience.
Often that is a part of you who has at some point not had access to a note, right? It might be like some intuition, like this person's not actually a good deal. Or if it's in a moment where you're like, I know this is a safe person for me. And then no, still showing up it, it, it. It might be this part of you who, who felt like they [00:56:00] lost access to know at some critical moment and when you center your nose, but I have found again and again, when, when that, like, lack of consensus shows up and I really lovingly clear the deck for it. She's on board the next time. Right. It's like, she, she has been waiting maybe for decades for a moment of like, finally, I've just been screaming no into the, into the abyss for all this time and you're, and you're listening. And, and I think often in this, this can be in sex, but this is so, this is helping your friend move when you don't want to do it, right.
It's like so many times we, we, we push past the no because it feels inconvenient or we're afraid of hurting people's feelings or we want to want it. And when we. Really honor the sacredness of that, of that part of us who is saying, no, I often find that there's just so much space for yes, that shows up from that action.
Eva: Yeah. Well, I think
Kaelan: that even to[00:57:00]
Eva: oh, I just want to say, I think that's because there's an element of like developing self trust and self love there and you're safe, you're safe to be able to make the decisions that you want. And so when there's no, you know, when there's force, there's resistance, right? Like that's something that we can all track in our, in ourselves.
And so once the force is released, then you get to see what your actual natural inclination is. But I will also say this, I think is what this brings up is how much I think, like, the type of, the type of sex that we've been talking about, the sort of intimate, delicious, deep, profound, joyful, spiritual sex, I think is so much dependent on, like, a lot of self trust.
It is a beautiful area, I think, in which we can develop self trust. And that's, I don't, I just, I find that To be a wonderful way of looking at sex, it's like, this is an area where I can turn into my, turn, tune into my nose and yeses and ask, ask for what I want. I mean, communicate. I mean, sex is a huge playground, initiating, initiatory, like, like trust of [00:58:00] self and trust of others.
And that can be big medicine, you know? Yes.
Kaelan: that you said that. It's feedback my husband gives me, which I so appreciate. He's like, I so appreciate, in life and in sex, how free you are to just say, could you do this for me right now? Because of course this response is like, yes, I would love to do that for you. Thank you for just telling me.
But how often in life we're told, no, that's selfish. Or, you know, keep that to yourself. They should figure it out. If they really love me, they just know. Which is bullshit.
Kyley: Or perform, sorry, this is like a parenting thing that's been coming up. So my daughter, who's five is going through, she's been going through stage for a little while where she like really loves getting help. Right. I think she's having a little bit of anxiety about getting older. And so she's appreciating like pretending to be younger and.
She is ferocious human being and I have so much admiration for her. And I was starting to watch, she was doing this thing where she was like, basically performing ineptness [00:59:00] so that we would help her. And she would like, pretend that she didn't know how, and I was getting mad because I was like, you cannot be a woman in the world who like walks around.
Like that is so dangerous, right? To think that you have to be inept to get what you need. Like, no. And I was to the point of where there's forces resistance. I was like getting like. angry and agitated and like anxious about it, right? Because I was projecting into the future. And finally, I like paused like, okay, her need is not like to be pretend to be a bimbo when she's a brilliant and when she's 23, because the world told her that's the only way to be safe.
Her need is like that her mom opens a toothpaste for her. Okay. So let's bring it back in. But one of the things that we had, like, so we had this kind of ongoing conversation where I had been practicing with her. You can just ask for help because you want to help you don't have to pretend that you can and it doesn't have to be you don't you don't get help because you can't you get help because people in your life love you and want to help you and so now she comes like running into the toothpaste and she's I [01:00:00] tried and I want your help and it's been so sweet and um, Anyway, and it just popped in as you were sharing that story of how important it is to like be sovereign with your needs and then have the space to just say, you know what?
I want help, or I want you to move this way, or I want this thing instead of that thing. And, um, and I love, I love how important that is in all of this.
Kaelan: It's giving yourself permission to be all things
Kyley: Yeah.
Kaelan: at times. Yes, I can be the caregiver and at times I can be the care recipient. I can be a strong and powerful woman. And there may be times where I want to feel like, oh, I dropped my keys. Can someone please help me pick them up? For myself, even, like, you used the word bimbo, uh, there's the male version, the himbo, right?
And like, clearly, I'm somebody who gets a lot of validation for his mind and his spirituality, but there's times where I love being treated by, like, a himbo, like, yes, I'm just this dumb, big muscle boy, just come and use me, like, ooh, yeah. Like, that's fun,
Kyley: Mm
Eva: Yeah.[01:01:00]
Kaelan: and, and, for women to give themselves permission, right, it doesn't take away your power that there may be a moment in a time where, yeah, you want to be objectified.
Okay, cool, we all want. Um, I do want to go back to use this term that I love, which whenever there is force, there's resistance. I think that is such a profound spiritual truth and very central to my ideology. And then tying that back to this idea around allowing yourself to say no, giving yourself the permission to articulate what you're feeling.
Yes to that. And I feel like that is probably one of the most central ideas I explore with my clients one on one. And In everything in life, because when I have, like, I have a good client I've been working with for quite some time now who experiences anxiety tremendously. And one of his big revelations has been, it's never been about trying to keep the anxiety at bay.
It's been [01:02:00] about saying, yes, I'm feeling anxious, allowing that feeling to be present, and then moving with it. And when we give ourself the permission to say yes to whatever wants to be voiced, even if it feels wrong, even if it feels scary, even if it feels like I'm a good person, so I shouldn't think, or I shouldn't say this, or I shouldn't do this, or I'm a powerful woman, or I'm a people pleaser, or I'm a blank.
Don't do this if you allow yourself to just say, okay, well, let me do it. It may just flow right through you may just do it and be like, Oh, I don't need to do that anymore. Or it might integrate into identity and that becomes something you do sometimes or becomes part of something. But there's something to be learned there.
That is your lesson, but that's showing up right now. And by saying no to it, you're missing the spiritual growth, you're missing the opportunity.
Eva: Yeah, yeah. I love that. That's a huge part, I think, of, you know, the whole universe and what we're about. We talk, spend a, Kylie and I spend a lot of time talking about that as a spiritual practice. Um, I'm noticing time and I've noticed that before, you know, we're, we're Getting into the [01:03:00] wind up zone a little bit.
Um, and before we get there, I still have some big questions. So maybe I want to turn the conversation more towards something that you said earlier, Kylie, your question you had about how to make room for, I don't know how you said it, and you were talking about, like, the act of fucking and Um, and how to make room for more acceptance of that.
And I think, I'm not saying that question right, but hopefully listeners can track what I'm saying and we're on the same page. I think I want to turn the conversation to the concept of eroticism. And that's also what I heard you talk about when you were talking, I loved by the way what you were saying about like opening up the definition of sex and how it is so boring and so narrow when we just think about like even penetration, right?
Like it, it, it, it's, it, it is also. There's a vanilla boringness to that because sex is so, so much more and so it can be so much more playful. And then I think about how a lot of that is eroticism, [01:04:00] eroticism, right? You're talking about being at a restaurant or being out in public with your husband and that can just be, and how that can just already be such a turn on.
But I think eroticism specifically, like we can talk about how sex between two people who are loving and kind, that's spiritual. That I think a lot of people can get on board with, but what about eroticism? I think that is my question. It's like, where I think eroticism is the part that's made wrong.
Because it is this like, how I experience eroticism is like, this It's almost like animalistic, non thinking, like I'm not, it's not my mind. It is pure passion and energy and like horniness. It's all these things that's like alive. And I think that's oftentimes what people think is wrong or actually where people feel a lot of shame.
That's, I think, really interesting, is the connection for sh between sex and shame for so many people. And that's the other thing that I feel really, I keep [01:05:00] going back to the word sad, which I don't want to sound patronizing, but I, I know that I didn't grow up with a religious background. And I, for, and I know that I feel very fortunate for that reason, because I don't have a lot of the same stories that I know a lot of people who grew up with religion have about sex.
And so, and I, what I see often is how people feel shameful about their erotic desires. And And I'm wondering if you can speak to that.
Kaelan: I love this. And I would love to just maybe amend or add to something I said earlier, which is when I talk about finding the people that you feel connected to and are ready to have experience with. so much. That doesn't necessarily mean it's somebody you No, well, it doesn't necessarily mean it's somebody that you've sat down and had a conversation and gone through your checklist with.
It's just somebody where you internally are feeling right about it. Now, maybe you are at a point where you're like, yeah, I can just make eye contact with that person across the room in a sex club and that's all I need and that's good for me. Then beautiful. [01:06:00] It's just having that internal discernment to know, where am I right now?
And I totally agree. I'm on board with you with this idea of destigmatizing eroticism and destigmatizing our bodies too. So this idea that sex is something that is shameful and should be hidden or secret or private, we don't talk about it. I think it's very important to destigmatize that. Now, one of the, one of the things that I do is like, people will come across naked photos or naked videos of me online.
Part of that is to start breaking through that taboo of just being like, So what? I've got a body. I enjoy sex. I enjoy masturbation. Chances are pretty good, you also have a body. You probably enjoy sex. You, good chance, enjoy masturbation. Why do we need to pretend that we don't? Why do we have to act as if that, oh no, that's secret, that needs to be hidden.
Your body is something that needs to be kept behind doors. But why? Can you tell me the why about that? Oh, because it's dangerous. What's dangerous about it? [01:07:00] You know, one of the things that I do that I get a little giggle out of is I often reject the idea of underwear. It's this idea of like, well, why am I supposed to keep my body hidden fully?
Why is it inappropriate for me to show my anatomy? Why is that supposed to be totally inappropriate? Well, it's scandalous. Why is it scandalous? What makes people uncomfortable? Why does it make people uncomfortable? Am I infringing on their personal space? Am I, am I, am I sexualizing them? Well, it makes them think impure thoughts. Do they like impure thoughts? Are they having fun with that?
Eva: Wait, can I,
Kaelan: Like starting to,
Eva: pause you there? And are you specifically talking about your, like, when you're saying it makes people uncomfortable for you, is it your practice of, because I know that, you know, when I check out your YouTube, which I recommend everybody does, it's that you're not clothed in your YouTube.
Is that the context in which you're speaking about when you're saying, like, people are like, well, or, or does, or how else do you practice nakedness in your life? [01:08:00] Hmm.
Kaelan: I wear my little, my little gym shorts and a free ball and people notice. You know, I wear a little stringer tank top. I'm practically naked working out. As much as I can be.
Eva: I love this. Okay. Gotcha. Gotcha. Okay. That's helpful. I think for, for the audience to also know like what context, yeah, you're speaking about. Hmm.
Kaelan: I go into the locker room, most of the time I don't use a towel. I'll just walk around naked. Maybe that makes people uncomfortable.
Eva: you make, help me through this then? Because I will, I don't know if this is, yeah, I don't, I don't know what my internal story is. So maybe both of you can help me work through this, but I will say that if I'm at a gym, I probably don't want to see a man's balls as I'm. doing my workout.
So thoughts on that?
Kaelan: Well, first, mine aren't hanging that low, so chances are good you will not actually see them. Uh,[01:09:00]
Eva: I didn't know how, how, I didn't know how, I didn't know, I didn't know how free balling you're talking about. Right. Right.
Kaelan: comment, and I would also ask you to sit with the question of why. So I'm going to give a parallel example, um, and this is going to be a little bit race related, but I remember walking down the street, and I live right next to an arena in D. C., so there's lots of concerts. So you'll see different groups of people coming for different concerts.
And I remember watching this. This older white gentleman commenting on the largely black audience attending, and a lot of the women were very voluptuous and wearing skin tight clothing, and usually not bras or undergarments, so you could see their whole bodies. And this older gentleman made a very not so nice comment to the person he was walking with about just how disgusting that is, and [01:10:00] why do they need to dress that way, and this is so inappropriate. And in the salon, where is he? Why? That's their body. Why is their body wrong or sinful? I might not feel like, oh, I'm titillated by this experience, but why should this person not be allowed to show the curvature of their body? Why is it that men are allowed to go shirtless in public but women not? Why is, why are our bodies being so, frankly, oppressed?
Like, what is wrong with Frankly, and again, this might seem like an extreme question, what is wrong if you did see somebody's naked body at the gym? What about it makes you uncomfortable? And I'm not, and I get we have the history of oppression, we have the gender differences, we have all of these things, but I think there is value in asking the question of what is truly uncomfortable about it.
Eva: And what's actually, yeah, no, I, I, I really appreciate the question. Cause it's so easy for me [01:11:00] to see like women's bodies I love. And I'm like, you know, going back to your example of this concert, no problem with that. Also. Boobies out, no problem with that. I, you know, will, but, but it's interesting to see. I think this is just an opportunity for me to reflect and ask and, uh, you know, we'll see what we come, what I come down to later, but like what my stories about are about men's bodies, because that's the difference for me, you know, and, and also I can easily automatically see how it also affects me.
Like it, there's such a quick reflex to, uh, just associations with unpleasant sexual experiences or men who are, who I, who I associate with being, you know, I have stories about how men are because of past traumatic experiences I've had. So thank you. That's exactly what I wanted. I wanted to be able to have the questions, ask the space to ask and inquire about my stories and associations.
Yeah.
Kaelan: what you [01:12:00] had about the negativity of the bodies, because we live in a culture that is pretty fucked up. Where men have infringed on the privacy and the sanctity of largely female bodies. And penises have been seen as an object of oppression, right? It's a penetrative organ, and we have lived through histories of violence against.
other people. And so a man's body can be seen as an organ of violence. But if we truly want to evolve, we have to realize that is how some people have and to behave. But that is, it's not, it's an objective truth. Penis is not necessarily an object that is going to infringe upon somebody else's space and sanctity.
And if we lived in a world where men did their internal work, treated all beings with respect, we're in a healthy, balanced place. Then all bodies should be an object of celebration and joy and neutrality. And so I totally resonate with your response [01:13:00] and I lovingly challenge to say the why behind that.
Eva: Yeah. I, I, I really, truly appreciate this so much because I've seen so many instances where I have having been perpetrated, I then become the perpetrator, you know? And so basically I'm just continuing the war, like there's a, there's a, there's a, there's an unhealthy cycle there where I'm just like, well, this happened to me.
And so understandably with a lot of compassion for myself and others as well, there's no blame there, but it is. The question of, um, but is this actually helpful and is this actually leading me to the truth? And is this helping me connect or disconnect with people? Is there a separation or am I creating more, uh, separateness?
So anyway,
Kyley: And this feels like it, this was like it goes back to the like board meeting or dinner table. I call it a board meeting of like [01:14:00] the parts that are saying they know the parts are saying yes, right? Because the no is valid. And then because we tend to if we're inconvenienced by the no, we make it wrong. We push it away.
But if so, so the no is valid. But then we lovingly ask like, what is your story? What is your need? Oh, you need to feel safe. Okay. You have a, you have a felt sense that this isn't safe is, you know, then to use a question you ask all the time, like, is that true? But, um, but I'm, I'm just loving the weaving of.
Once again, it comes back to like, Oh, the, the, the big note that I actually wrote down and like cursive colorful letters is my fully embodied, no clear space for my most joyful. Yes. Um, and that feels like 1 of my big takeaways from our call today. It's like, um, yeah, just how can I like, love the shit out of my nose so that I can just keep saying yes, more deeply and with more joy.
Um,
Eva: Mm. I love that. [01:15:00] Yeah.
Kaelan: And as you all, we all know that whenever we have an emotional reaction to something, it's a, it's an indicator that we have our healing work to do. Because ideally, if we're fully in a space of healing, healing, healingness, you'll be able to do this then. We're pretty neutral. Like, whatever somebody does or doesn't do, we're unaffected by it.
It's like, okay, cool, good for them. We have that emotional response. It indicates around work. And then also, just candidly, I want to offer to both of you that most of the people I work with are gay men. There are, of course, exceptions to that, but it's largely the demographic I work with. And I recognize that there is an immense amount of privilege that I get to have of being in a queer masculine space because of the gender.
roles and the gender dichotomy and the history of trauma and all of those things largely get to be sidestepped. I think things become so much more difficult in co ed spaces and I think it becomes so much more difficult when we're [01:16:00] dealing with people who have had very different life experiences because of their gender, because of their bodies, because of historical roles we were supposed to play.
Like I think our challenges for both genders, the roles men were supposed to play the men women are supposed to play. And. I find a certain freedom in being typically more, um, Masculine spaces of not having to deal with that in the same way in the same ones. And this is one way that I think, you know, having more female bodied centric spaces, it feels like it's a healing space where you're able to deal with things without worrying with that extra added level of the gender differences.
And I mean, my husband frequently just comment just in our, in our marriage relationship that you often say. I think it's so much easier being a same sex couple because if, if you were a woman, oh my god, there's so many other things that we'd have to deal with. This is so much easier. I
Kyley: Well, you know what that's making me think of, uh, is how, how much, as we've been talking about the [01:17:00] body and like nakedness, I was thinking of this gym that I was part of for when I was in grad school that I loved, um, that was a women's only gym, um, in Cambridge, Massachusetts, which is, you know, like they call the people's Republic of Cambridge, right?
It's like the hippiest, you know, uh, it's like the Berkeley of, of, of Massachusetts. And, um, And everyone was naked in the locker room all the freaking time at like all ages, right? Like everyone was just like naked and I'd never been, and I grew up in a house. It was actually like pretty neutral about like, it wasn't a super weird, you know, some, some homes are like very closed off about that.
Like my mom would regularly walk around with like a t shirt and her underwear. Um, um, but. So I don't have a lot of like weird family baggage around nakedness, but there was, I had never just been in the space of like, there's 30 women in here and everyone's body is so different. Maybe mine's not so bad.
And, and so one of the things that I'm also thinking about, about this, [01:18:00] like, other people's nakedness potentially being triggering or making you uncomfortable. Well, how comfortable are you with your own, with your own body? And what's your, what's your journey to like really loving? Um, I I've shared about this on the podcast before, I think, but after my couple of years ago, after COVID, after I had two little kids, I realized how much I was just like, not.
Happy with how I was like, you know, I was just in the like, post COVID postpartum leggings phase still. Right. And, um, and I made this really intentional choice to like, start a quote unquote overdressing for my suburban life. And in particular, you know, like, Not hiding my tits and because I was I saw how that was a like, well, that's a special occasion thing, you know And it was like, you know what now I'm going to get coffee and I am wearing the like most boobalicious dress that I have Because it's great.
Oh, did I just get a smiley face on my coffee? Yeah, of course I did [01:19:00] and and and and that idea of like play With our own nakedness or also just with our own, like with our own bodies and with the like, yeah, I'm overdressing for myself or I'm dressing sexy for myself in my frigging office because, 'cause it just feels good and fun and that, I think also then making a lot of space for other people's, various states of undress to be also more playful and fun.
Eva: Mm hmm. Yeah.
Kaelan: love how you came alive when you were saying that, like the smile and the joy and this is the thing, right? Like, you're reclaiming your body. You're reclaiming saying, I'm a spirit having a human experience. I'm grateful for this body. I'm having fun with it. I'm enjoying it. I feel more playful. I feel more joyful.
What a world we would live in. If everybody were able to feel that way, and were respected, and just because you were in that space, you weren't being objectified or treated like a piece of meat, but you were actually respected and celebrated for it, because [01:20:00] everybody were in that space, how healing and cathartic would that be?
Eva: yeah. And I just want to make a plug for, cause, cause like being safe in naked spaces has come up twice now. Like Kailin, you talked about going to Korean spa. Kylie, you talked about girls locker, the locker room. And I will just say, so I'm Taiwanese and Taiwanese culture, not as big as in Japan. I also lived in Japan and in Korea, basically these Asian cultures being naked publicly in spas is like the most normal thing.
And so I highly recommend, I think that really helps me with my body image. I I actually had a friend who was anorexic and she went to Japan to teach for a year able to be comfortable naked with other women. And it was, it like completely helps her with her anorexia, her body image issues. I just think there's something so healing about that.
So big plug for like, if you are in a city where you have access to that, especially if you are uncomfortable or you have something that you want to work through, like go, I think even if it's uncomfortable, like that's, that's the point. It's like, learn to [01:21:00] see what comes up for you in those spaces.
Kaelan: I, I tried to get my two brothers to go with me to the Korean spa, and they were like flabbergasted, like absolutely not, I would never be comfortable being naked with anyone else.
Eva: Yeah.
Kaelan: And to your point, when we start seeing The shapes of the people's bodies, it really helps us reveal our own humanness, our own perfection.
And just like, Oh, you mean not everybody looks like the people on magazines and billboards? Because those are the only people who are usually given permission to be naked. And, and I can cultivate whatever body I want. That's not a comment on that. If you want to go look that way and do whatever it takes to get that, that's, that's fine.
That's your choice. But to realize like, You can show up however you are, and that, too, is beautiful, that, too, is sacred, that, too, is human. It's a playground. You get to play with this life. You get to play with this body however you want to.
Eva: Yeah
Kyley: It's been an interesting, um, experience, you know, early, we're talking about like kids as a place of, you know, spiritual lessons, you [01:22:00] know, you have two kids, your belly is different. Right. And I, like many women, like my belly's often been like, was the place that I was most uncomfortable. So I found pregnancy, this incredible experience of like, Oh, my belly's supposed to get giant.
This is really, and I just would lock around, like rubbing it all the time in part. Cause I, you know, yeah. Was like next thing with the baby, but also I think I was really intimately just connecting with my belly, right? Of like, Whoa, you're giant and you're supposed to be giant. And then you afterwards, your belly's a different shape, right?
It's like got all these funny, funky marks and it's, it's, it's not the same and it's not going to be the same. And, and honestly, that was actually complicated for me for a while. Um, and And, you know, kids will poke at anything, right? And they'll be like, what's this? Why is this this way? And it's been really, really cool to watch how, Oh, I just got teared up.
Because I am so interested in loving them and showing for them. That they like the love of [01:23:00] their own body that when they have asked, like, what's this? Why is your belly this way? Or what? Then there's this, this neutrality that comes up with this really compassionate neutrality. That's like, yeah, that's what bodies do, man.
That's what happens. And whereas in my own head space, I might be cruel in, in the light of their questions. It's so available to be really loving and, and then I carry that with me, right? Then next time I'm looking in the mirror, I'm like, Oh yeah, remember what we said to our kids? That is still true. Um, and I am, uh, I'm grateful for that.
So I don't know, maybe if you, if you're up for it, go be naked around, you know, or not naked naked, but like, you know, be subject yourself to kids, weird questions and see if that helps.
Kaelan: Yes. Love it.
Eva: All right, how we feeling guys?
Kyley: Should we do joy?
Eva: Yes. I feel like there were so many questions and we could go on and on forever. I think we've reached that [01:24:00] time in the podcast when we do around joy, does that feel good for y'all?
Kaelan: Beautiful.
Eva: All right. Kaelan, what's something that's bringing you joy right now in your life?
Kaelan: Do I get to say you both? Like, is that a fair answer? Does, does everyone say that?
Eva: we love that answer.
Kaelan: I,
Kyley: We do pride ourselves on trying to be the most fun interview that guests come on. That's really one of our goals. So Yeah,
Kaelan: appreciate about this experience and about you both is your heart, your vulnerability, and you're willing to share yourselves in a meaningful way. And also, I want to say what brings me a lot of joy, too, is getting to talk specifically with people who are like you, because most of the people who want to have conversations with me typically are gay men. And to get to have a conversation with people outside of that experience, and to say, as, as a male bodied individual, I have [01:25:00] typically felt a little not invited to partake in female led spaces, especially in the spiritual context, and especially when we talk about embodiment like that. It's like, oh, no, you're not involved.
And so to get to have this synergy between us to get to have. These giggles and these sparkles and these points of connections. Oh, yeah, me too with you specifically is really for me and bringing me a lot of joy because it's not something I get to have a lot of in my life. And I'll just very quickly share a quick anecdote, which was when I published my second book, which was. a gay fantasy novel largely taken from my own life experiences. I put it on a website where people could download it for free in exchange for a review, and I didn't realize that meant, given the nature of Queer Lit, that would be basically be queer women reading the book. And they [01:26:00] tore me a new asshole.
They read my book and wrote Atrocious things, not just about the character, but about me as the author and telling me they wanted to kill me and only after so much of what was my lived experience. And what was so interesting is after the book came out and my followers read it, which were largely gay men, I had so many men come to me and say, I felt like you were writing my tale.
I'm so glad this book existed. It was so meaningful to me. It was really hard because I felt very rejected by queer feminine space and told me and my experience is wrong and painful and uncomfortable. And so to be in this environment today where I felt like I was valued and to feel seen and to feel heard and to feel held is a very corrective healing experience made me a lot of joy.
So thank you.
Eva: Kaelan, thank you so much. I'm really honored and touched because I. Yeah, I definitely value your experience. I definitely value your words and your wisdom. I think you've [01:27:00] really brought a lot to us as people, as individuals, and to the show. And I'm really grateful. Thank you.
Kaelan: Thank you.
Kyley: I'm also just marveling at the way life just It's generative, like it's always giving us the opportunity to heal, you know, that's what I'm struck by right now is like, you know, we're just forever being given opportunities to receive what we need and I'm really humbled that we got to, we got to, uh, be a version of that for you.
Kaelan: Thank you. Beautiful.
Kyley: How about you, my love? Let's bring in your joy. Hey, I'm
Eva: Well, I was thinking about this other day because I was going for a walk and something, um, that is bringing me joy is all the animals in my neighborhood. So Kaylin, I just moved to Brazil not too long ago, and I live pretty off grid, [01:28:00] but there is this cute little neighborhood around, and it's just amazing the amount of, like, animal life there is around me.
It's, there's cows, everywhere and like they're just so gentle and wise looking and they're the kind they're like white with like the humps and they're just so magical looking but there's some that are like they look like you know they belong to families and some that are just like wild and just like walking around and then there's We've got two cats here who are so sweet and then we have, um, monkeys sometimes and also there's like a pond with geese and like little ducklings around and then a bunch of just like random stray dogs.
Oh, and goats and sheep. And I'm like, what is going on? It's like so much animal life and they're all so cute, but so wise and so gentle. And I feel like I have so much to learn from them. It's been a really, another facet of connecting to nature for me here. So feeling really grateful for that. Bringing me a lot of joy.
Yeah. And what about you, Kylie?[01:29:00]
Kyley: I'm gonna drop to, um, this past weekend, I went to see the eclipse with my kiddos and my parents, my parents live in Maine. And so I texted my mom, like, I know 10 days before it, I was like, Oh, should we do clips? And my mom is so great. Like she, I learned all my best adventure techniques from her within 20 minutes.
She's like, I've ordered the glasses. I found a spot for all right. Like, she's just, so it was like all in immediately. And. They live like 90 minutes from like where that kind of line of totality was and it was a total whirlwind like You know, crazy hours of driving, lots of driving, uh, and no idea what we were getting ourselves into because it was so much of like, this is going to be, you know, main is not set up for like 40, 000 people in these like small little towns, you know?
And, um, Oh my God. It was one of the coolest experiences of my entire, I, I actually can't even fully like [01:30:00] acknowledge like that. I, it's, it's, I was trying to explain it to my husband. Cause he, he didn't come with us and I was trying to explain it. And it was like, it's not. It felt like you were on another planet for three minutes, and it was the three, but the three minutes also felt that they were like five fricking seconds.
I mean, it was unbelievable. I already told him. I was like, there's one in Iceland in two years. We'll be going. Get ready. Um, um, and, um, And my, my son really thought it was amazing. And my daughter was actually like, she's very, very, very, they're both, my kids are very sensitive to energy in slightly different ways and about 20 minutes before the eclipse, my daughter just started to have a full on meltdown and like, wouldn't let anyone touch her, which is unusual when she's upset and was like curled up under a ball and like, wouldn't look at the eclipse.
And then the second it was over, she was fine. It was, that was its own kind of wild, like, Yeah, this is a, this is, you know, as someone who, um, feels deeply the way in which the movements and currents [01:31:00] of the universe are moving us, she was, I felt so potently how she was experiencing that. Um, uh, and you know, and then I got the opportunity to just be like, yeah, however you feel is fine.
Right. Like, okay. It's no pressure kid. Um, and so that was also, I think healing for, for me anyway. So the eclipse was amazing. I could go on and on about it. Um, And, um, and my son was just like, that was the coolest thing I've ever seen. Um, and then as if that wasn't great enough on Saturday, I leave for France for two weeks.
Yeah,
Eva: and I want, I want like a stupid picture of you in a beret and a baguette or something.
Kyley: we're taking our kids, we're going for two weeks. My husband is the most amazing human and he has like researched and like plotted and planned, but we're also a really great team at like, we've got all the research and then you just show up and you're like, who the fuck knows what's going to happen. And [01:32:00] um, we did Italy last year.
Now we're going to France. Uh, I'm, I can't wait for the trip and I also am beyond like beyond overwhelmed and delighted that. That I have a partner in a life and financial means where we can do things like take our kids to Europe for two weeks. And we did not, my husband and I did not grow up with those kinds of opportunities.
And I'm, um, excited both about the trip, but also that, like, this is my life. And, um, yeah, I can't wait to eat all the bread and cheese and drink all the wine.
Eva: Yes. I'm so excited for you. Those are good. Some good joys.
Kaelan: And I love how you're celebrating it. That just makes it so much more meaningful.
Eva: Yes. All right. Kaylin, where can people find you and how can they work with you?
Kaelan: My website is Ecstatic Self, so you can find links to all my socials there, upcoming retreats, my books, working with me one on one. My main platform is [01:33:00] YouTube. YouTube, same thing, Ecstatic Self. I try to post a video a week and do a live meditation every Sunday at six o'clock.
Eva: Oh, cool. Wait, where are you located? I'm just curious.
Kaelan: I am in Washington,
Eva: Oh, right. You said that next to the stadium. Okay. Got it. All right. Well, thank you so much. This was such a wonderful conversation.
Kaelan: Oh, it's been a sincere joy. Thank you for making my week.