Abigail Rose Clarke is a somatic teacher and author whose work invites people back into honest relationship with their bodies, and the world around them. Abigail speaks about somatics in a way that’s refreshingly un-branded. She reminds us that the body isn’t a self-improvement project but a whole ecosystem that includes our relationships, histories, communities, and the ground beneath our feet.
Abigail Rose Clarke is a somatic teacher and author whose work invites people back into honest relationship with their bodies, and the world around them.
Abigail speaks about somatics in a way that’s refreshingly un-branded. She reminds us that the body isn’t a self-improvement project but a whole ecosystem that includes our relationships, histories, communities, and the ground beneath our feet.
🌿 What We Talk About
🌱 Living in the Ecotone
Abigail’s discovery of the term ecotone—the meeting place between ecosystems—and how it mirrors the emotional edge where grief and joy can exist side by side.
💫 What Somatics Actually Means
Tracing the roots of the word “somatic” to its original sense of the whole body, and why reducing it to nervous-system regulation misses the point.
🌍 Gravity, Ease, and the Body’s Relationship to Earth
Abigail reframes gravity as an ongoing relationship rather than a force to resist, describing the relief that comes when we let ourselves be held.
🔥 When Wellness Becomes Another Job
A grounded critique of how capitalism turns embodiment into a product to be bought and sold—and what it might look like to reclaim our practices from that system.
💔 Grief, Pain, and the Ground That Holds Us
How the death of her longtime dog brought Abigail back to the simplest somatic truth: that the earth underneath us offers unconditional support when nothing else can.
🌸 G R O W L: A Simple Somatic Framework
Abigail’s approachable method—Ground (or Gravity), Relate, Observe, Widen, Love—offering a way to meet the body with curiosity rather than correction.
💍 Commitment Without Constriction
Reflections on her recent engagement and the ongoing experiment of how two people can choose each other while still allowing change, space, and evolution.
🌕 The Shape of Long-Term Love and Friendship
A re-imagining of commitment that values honesty and aliveness over longevity, and how the health of any bond depends on letting each person keep becoming.
💬 Connect with Abigail
💫 Connect with Eva & Kyley
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Eva: [00:00:00] Hello, listeners. Today we have a very special guest, Abigail Rose Clarke, who's an author and somatic facilitator. You may know her from her book. Returning Home To Our Bodies, Abigail, thank you so much for joining us.
On Hell Universe. We're so excited to have you.
Abigail: Yeah, I'm really excited to be here. Thank you.
Eva: Yeah. So, as you know, uh, our first question to our guest is, what is something life is teaching you right now in this moment?
Abigail: It is such a good question. Um, so life is teaching me about what I'm gonna call the ecotone of joy and grief, fear and hope.
Um, so an ecotone [00:01:00] in the language of ecology is a place where two different biomes meet. So, uh, like a riparian edge. So the edge of a river, uh, is called an ecotone 'cause it has both the qualities of the river and qualities of the land. Um, where the ocean meets a bay is an ecotone, um, where different types of hardwood forests meet.
Those are ecotone. It's like the spot in the middle of the Venn diagram where it overlaps. Um, it has qualities of both. So it's therefore different than both, and some species really need that. Um, specialization of the ecotone, like a frog, for example, needs an ecotone because the amphibian lives in the shallow edge of the water, or the tadpole, sorry, lives in the shallow edge of the water.
And then the frog moves between water and, and land. Um, so as we've been, you know, being worked through our collective grief and this, and these collective traumas that [00:02:00] we've been living through, um, that we are living through, for me, it, it feels really important to hold my life as being in that ecotone because my personal life has a lot of joy to it, a lot of beauty, um, and it's easy to be pulled into this sort of starkness.
Um, which ultimately isn't fair to anyone involved because it makes a caricature of, of even the people most affected by the grief, right? Like, something that's been so powerful for so many of us is seeing how people in Gaza, for example, still celebrate and live and love even as they are living through, like what is truly a hellscape, right?
So if I let myself be pulled only into one thing, I'm actually, um, doing a disservice to life and life as a whole. But if I also turn away from what is ugly and try and just focus on my beautiful pretty thing over here, it's equally a disservice or [00:03:00] maybe even worse of one. So, um, yeah, I've been trying to hold that and it also, it helps me not feel like I have to somehow get through this and rather find what lives here now in this, in this place and sort of.
Become an inhabitant of this edge place rather than trying to Yeah, like be the frog. Yeah, exactly. Be the frog. Yeah, exactly. Yeah. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
Kyley: Perhaps someone in an inflatable in Portland, Oregon,
Abigail: perhaps one in inflatable in Portland, Oregon. I love those people. I think that it's just so good and brilliant.
I saw one person who was just like, well, this is like the silliest timeline, so I decided to just be silly.
Eva: Mm-hmm. I was like,
Abigail: yeah, that's one word for it. Yeah.
Eva: I'm so excited. I'm like hanging on every word that you're saying already. 'cause I'm just like, this is just like the analogy of the ecotone as like whenever a nature is brought in as an example, you know, for [00:04:00] teaching as what exists.
I'm always like, yes, I'm so here for it. You know? 'cause instead of it being wrong, I'm like, wait a second, this is like normal. This is, mm-hmm. We're all feeling it. Right? Like in some ways, and I particularly anyway, in my own personal life, this has been. It's very alive for me. And so I just wanna start by saying thank you for this framework of ego tone.
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
Abigail: Yeah. Yeah. There's actually a whole chapter of it in returning home to our bodies. It's like, I play, it plays a central role because as soon as I discovered it, years and years ago, I don't even remember why I first heard it. I was just like, oh, mm-hmm. This helps me. I think it was probably in like ecological studies about, you know, riparian zones of the river.
Um, but it just helped me understand how I could live in this sort of messy middle place, right. Rather than try and pull myself. You know, I mean, a lot of what I talk about and think about and write about is also like, how do we get away from these binary types of thinking and live in full spectrum reality?
And the ecotone helps me with [00:05:00] that too. 'cause it's, mm-hmm. It just, it, it expects the overlay and the messiness and the sort of nuance rather than trying to. Push it into category, like categorize groups,
Eva: such good medicine. I'm sorry, I'm gonna interject again and just share about my, you can't see,
Abigail: listeners can't hear.
I can't see the like gripping of fingers. Yes, yes. It's like,
Eva: just for listeners who know who've been listening to the show, I'm about to head to Taiwan for my season of Taiwan, where my family is, which is oftentimes a very stressful time in my life. But I also have this beautiful life that I have in Brazil, and it's like oftentimes, yes, it's this, I go into like black and white thinking, which is never helpful.
You know, it's very stressful. It's not in line with reality and it's already, and I've been struggling with like, oh, like, you know how to hold these two. And there's something about remembering that it's, it's, it's always, and whenever I can come into both and my whole body just relaxes essentially is what I'm gaining from what you're sharing with us.
So, thank you.
Kyley: Mm-hmm. Yeah, that's what, [00:06:00] that's, I was thinking as you were just speaking to that, um, how. We are actually all frogs. Right? Like, we actually thrive in the Yes, and in the messy middle of it. We don't actually, it's, it's artificial or hollow or like somehow just, uh, the wrong environment for us when we try to just be in all of one or all of the other.
Eva: Mm-hmm. Um,
Kyley: and I think I was curious if you could speak to how, how your work with the body has helped you to inhabit this messiness of grief and joy at the same time.
Abigail: Mm. Okay. Well, so I think before I jump into that, I wanna describe how I define somatics because mm-hmm. I've been doing this for long enough that, um, I've been doing it for long enough that when I first started describing somatics, people were like, what are you talking about?
And now everyone's just like, oh [00:07:00] yeah, like this thing and that thing and this thing. It's all somatic, right? It's definitely a buzzword. Um, for listeners who might not have no idea what it means, it's always going to refer to something related to the body. But more and more lately it seems to be being used almost like as a, as a synonym for mindfulness, or it used to be yoga, then it was embodiment, now it's somatic, et cetera.
Um, but somatic at, at the root level of the word means of the whole body or of the body soma. Um, so in comparison to say the word anatomy, which means literally to cut up into pieces and atia to cut up into parts. So anatomy looks at the parts somatic, and then the somatic would be looking at the whole, which you wouldn't necessarily know if you're listening to people talk about somatics online because they're all almost always talking about the nervous system, right?
Eva: Mm-hmm.
Abigail: So. And that's not to say that the, I mean, I love anatomy books. I love the study of anatomy. We, I need the study of [00:08:00] anatomy to understand the whole, but somatic, a somatic worldview. And that's where I take it out of just the one physical human body, but into an actual worldview. The somatic worldview will always have the hole as a set point, whereas an anatomical worldview will bifurcate into parts, parts, parts, parts, parts.
And so, um, and I mean that in terms of my own personal body, like it's not just about the nervous system, it's actually about the nervous system. Its relationship to the organs and its relationship to the fluids and its relationship to the breath and its relationship to my actual whole body. But then, and this becomes really apparent when we start even thinking about it, it's like, it's also related to the space I'm in, the people I'm having conversations with, my closest relationships, my, my greater community, the food I eat.
The air I breathe, all of this has to do with my personal body. So of course, in order to [00:09:00] understand this whole, I have to understand the whole, which means studying the parts, how race, uh, gender, uh, you know, governmental, um, freedoms or non freedoms. How that all interacts with each of us as individuals.
How the history of colonization, for example, interacts with all of us as a, as individuals. How different countries might seem like they're operating differently, but they're actually all in this kind of matrix because it's not just about the parts, it's about returning to the whole. And it's also about my whole natural body as part of a whole natural world.
So that's one part of how being in the body, setting the body has helped me kind of. It's sort of, it's like helps make, there's that ecotone analogy through all these different things, right? But also, and really fundamentally by [00:10:00] finding that deep ease of being in my body as it is, which is really different than how a lot of the wellness world approaches the body, which is always as some sort of aspirational goal, I'll like my body when, and then depending on the room that you're in, that fill in the blank at the end could be different.
Right? So it's like, I'll, like my body when it's more flexible, when it's thinner, when it has younger biomarkers, when it blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. There's always something, right? When there's
Eva: no more pain, that's when there's no more pain,
Abigail: which is really understandable. Mm-hmm. Like truly understandable.
'cause pain is very hard to live with.
Eva: Mm-hmm.
Abigail: And what I found over the, you know, it's almost been two decades of teaching. Is that there is act and practice of course. So in my own body when I've had pain, but then also working with people who have like true chronic, this is gonna be with them for the rest of their lives.
Pain is that finding the ease of just our body's relationship with [00:11:00] gravity and how I am here. 'cause the earth is pulling me here, like mine. This is mine that says the, says the earth. This body's mine. She's down here with me all the time. I can effort to pull myself away from it, but really Earth says no, I got you.
So when I release the resistance to that and I let gravity hold me, which I can do even as I just talked to you, like drop into the chair even a bit more, there's ease under whatever pain is there, chronic or acute, emotional or physical, and that lets me meet what's here, whether that's in my own body or out in the world.
With more space, not because it doesn't magically, like nothing magically changes the world. Isn't now, now magically easy to live in, but there's more ease as I live within a world that is really hard, right? Just full stop. Unless you're just, you know, [00:12:00] in this magical confluence of privileges and that it doesn't affect you, the world's a hard place to live in, especially right now.
So can I find ease in that intrinsic, inescapable relationship of a body made of earth, living, talking, moving, feeling, breathing earth. That's what we are on earth. Can I find that ease to then move with more ease within, uh, created systems that are really hard to live within. So the body helps me do all that.
And then it also means that if I ever need something to think about. The body gives me things that I can think about and feel and explore that aren't pulling me towards despair, that are pulling me into awe, awe and relationship and curiosity.
Kyley: Okay. I wanna ask questions about awe and curiosity, but first I have to just say this idea of gravity as the earth claiming us, like with this, like, love and belong.
I mean, I'm teared up thinking about it. Mm-hmm. Just like [00:13:00] what an exquisite image that I, I'm tucking in because I think that I'm, I'm taking that one with me, so thank you. Yeah. Yeah.
Abigail: You're still welcome.
Kyley: Here's the cool thing about
Abigail: gravity too. So let me just keep on blowing your mind a little bit. Please.
So, so gravity, it's, it's a downward pull, right? The earth's mass is so much bigger than us that it pulls us down and then the at it's also pulling on the atmosphere. So like, there's like a blanket of sky that covers this. But what's also really cool and really helpful to remember is that. The earth doesn't just pull down.
There's also this equal and opposite push back up. So every action has an equal and opposite reaction in Newtonian physics. So like my cup on my desk, right? There's a certain weight to it. I put it on the table. It doesn't fall through the table because the table is now exerting the equal amount of force as the cup so it matches, right?
An elephant would break the table, but a cup won't. Right. But the earth is so [00:14:00] massive that no matter what I, what amount of me I give to the earth, the earth is gonna be able to receive me fully and offer support in that same equal amount that moves up through me. So as I, you know, as I sit here, I can give myself into the earth and sometimes I can just collapse and just drop, right?
But I can also, if we're thinking about like a relational approach to alignment, I can also use what I know about the structure of the body, the bones, the muscles, the tendon, et cetera, to find a relationship with gravity where now that push, that pull down from sky and Earth is moving down through me, and then that push back up from Earth into the sky moves up through me.
And it's a relationship with gravity that doesn't have me going through a laundry list of like, okay, roll my shoulder back. And it's a. A fluid dance that's always with me, whatever I'm doing. It doesn't have to, it's [00:15:00] not positional, it's relational.
Eva: That's,
Abigail: that's gravity. Oh my God.
Eva: I have, oh, this is just magic.
I, I'm very close to. Yes. And I'm also, I mean, this could be because I'm close to starting my bleed, but it also could just because it's so beautiful. But I was tearing up as I was, as you were speaking to that, I was like really struck by, uh, like feeling humbled by like, oh my God, how generous, how supportive like the earth is and nature and whatever this is, you know, that is nameless, that we can't explain, but just that I love your, your ability to explain it because of the, the specific knowledge that you have, you know, from the science and from the body and all of that.
It's just like, it's, it's. I just kinda wonder how do you move through the world? You know what I
Abigail: mean? Like clumsy often. I mean, I run into stuff all the time.
Eva: No, I know. I don't mean just physically, but just like that's the [00:16:00] beauty of, I think, um, when we can, you know, there's like a, there's a pros and cons to knowledge, I think, but having, having knowledge that can imbue how we experience life with this richness, I think must just be a pretty fun, awesome experience.
I don't know if I'm projecting. I mean, yeah, I think so. I think so.
Abigail: Um, and I'm also, you know, there's, there's different facets to me as there is to everyone, right? So there's like, you know, there's parts of me where this is really clear. There's parts of me where I have to kind of, you know, muddle through it a little bit more.
Eva: Mm-hmm.
Abigail: As I age into this work, you know, now that it's. It's definitely my career, right? It's no longer just like a thing I'm doing on the side. It's like, this is, I'm doing this.
Eva: Mm-hmm. And
Abigail: there is, and especially because of, because of my book, I've been able to be in rooms with a lot of people all over the world talking about, you know, especially 'cause of [00:17:00] being able to do it digitally.
Like online conversations with people from all over the world about this stuff have really helped it take deeper root in me. Um, and I will say that, you know, it makes me an easier person to live in relationship with. I think even as some relationships have fallen away over past years, other relationships that have taken their place or just grown into that space, created have, like, honestly, they knock my socks off.
Like, I'm just, I'm in awe of the, um, of the relationships that I, and the quality of relationships that I have in my life. Um, and, uh. It's, it's how, and then I also have a great therapist, right? Like a really great one, thank God. And I have lots of friends who are therapists who can kind of toggle between that space of like, I'm gonna listen and just like, shoot the shit and be catty.
And then also like, and now I'm curious about [00:18:00] maybe how this is, you know, like, oh my god, those my favorite relationships. Oh, they're so good. I was just on the phone with my bro, Josh. He's just like, shout out Josh. 'cause he is like so good at that, at being like, oh, this is interesting. Like, I remember you said this thing a few months ago and like, now I'm hearing it in this way.
And I'm just like, yeah. Thanks dude. Thank you so much. Um, yeah, so being able, but being able to find softness and center even in hard things or to, you know, misstep and then come back into self, it's, it's a transformational thing in my life, that's for sure. I don't know who I'd be. This work and the teachers who, who offered it to me first, Patty Townsend and Bonnie Bainbridge Cohen are highest among them.
Um, Bonnie Bainbridge Cohen developed body Mind centering, if you like what I'm talking about in terms of somatics, like Google her. Mm-hmm. She's phenomenal. I think she's 84 and, uh, actually right after this interview, I'll, I'm taking an online [00:19:00] class with her and it is so amazing to watch this woman move because she's just, she's 84 and she's just like, so fluid and beautiful and just, you know, and unattached to being right and just gorgeous.
And then Patty's in her, gosh, I don't wanna get it wrong, but I think she's in her seventies and equally just like vibrant and humble and also just exquisitely masterful teacher. So I feel really fortunate that I got, I somehow found two women who just really know what they're talking about and are living their.
Living what they're talking about in such fullness.
Kyley: That was actually one of the questions that I was curious to know more of, because as you mentioned, you've been doing this work now for 20, 20 years and uh, yeah. Somatics is for sure a buzzword now, and I can only imagine that it was not 20 years ago.
And so, uh, what, [00:20:00] what, what brought you to this work?
Abigail: Mm-hmm. Um, well, I will say, um, I am a child of the nineties and two thousands where shout out. Yep. Hey, um, nothing tastes as good as skinny feels, right? Mm-hmm. And I have a body that has been committed to curves from middle school. Right. So, what honestly brought me to this work was yoga seemed like a, like a great way to control my curves into straight lines.
Eva: Hmm.
Abigail: And then after years of doing yoga, 'cause I felt like I should. And kind of hating it honestly, but just being like, this is, I have to do it. Um, I found somebody was teaching a class and I really liked it and I kept on going and I was just like, this feels different. This feels cool. And then eventually she was just like, if you like my class, you gotta go like half an hour down the road.
My teacher teaches. And at from that first class, just first one, I was just like, what is this? Like that was Patty. [00:21:00] Um, so that was, that was in, I guess 20, 27. The tail end of 2027 is when I met her. I started a teacher training with her in 2020, 2007.
Kyley: 2007.
Abigail: That's what I meant. Yeah. I was like, we're jumping into the future
Eva: now.
Abigail: I we're very skilled. Thank you so much. Mm-hmm. Tail end of 2007 is when I met her. Started a teacher training with her in 2008. Um, got into a really bad car accident at the tail end of the teacher training. Um, got hit by a giant truck in my tiny little car. Doctors are like, surgery to walk again and you'll have cor, you'll need to have cortisone shots for the rest of your life.
And I was like, I'm in my early twenties, I don't think I wanna try this first. Like this feels really intense. And so that was, it was really helpful to have. That was when I got to meet Bonnie and work more deeply with Patty. Three months in, after like three, I was living with my mom, thank goodness, because I just had to basically lay on the floor.
Um, [00:22:00] and after three months of that, I was starting to be able to move again and walk again. And after six months I had no pain, no lingering pain, more flexibility and integration than before the accident. And the doctors were like, you must have faked your MRI or the insurance company rather was like, you must have faked your MRI for this to be true.
I know. I was like, if I could fake an MR, I think I would try and get more money than like what I'm trying to get, which is just to pay for my totaled car. Right. Um. Wow. But I'd rather have my leg. So, uh, so that just was this like real eye-opening experience into what bodies are capable of. I've also feel really fortunate happened when I was young, I had resources, I was able to rest and heal and, you know, do all the things.
Um, but then after that I was like, all right, this, I guess this is my life's work because what else am I gonna do at this point? Uh, so little by little started doing that and started teaching online back [00:23:00] in, gosh, I think it was like. 2013. So back in the age of Skype, because I moved to Mexico thinking it was just gonna be temporary, but then my car broke down.
I was kind of stuck there and I was like, oh, how do I figure this out? And, um, and I'm shortening the story, but basically I was like, oh, well it seems like people are teaching stuff online and there's this whole thing called coaching. And I, I've never vibed with being a coach. It's outright.
Eva: Mm-hmm.
Abigail: That's why I don't call myself a somatic coach.
I'd rather call myself a somatic facilitator. Fast, easy. I try and make somatics easy, right?
Eva: Mm-hmm.
Abigail: Um, but I started teaching this stuff online and nobody knew what Zoom was. Yeah, totally. But then when the quarantine said, I was just like, well, nothing's changing. Like everything's, and people, uh, some people I was working with were really grateful to already have to know that zoom could be connective right.
When it started to be the only way we could connect. So, um. Yeah, that's like the,
Eva: yeah,
Abigail: the [00:24:00] short. Okay.
Kyley: Yeah. Postcard version. Yeah.
Abigail: Somewhat.
Eva: I wanna jump in with questions. So as someone who's been doing this since, you know, long before it was popular or trendy mm-hmm. I think, okay. I have multiple questions here.
It's like I almost wanna blend two things and apologies upfront if this question is a little bit convoluted, I'm gonna just hand it to you and see what you do with it. See if we can parse it out together maybe. But something that I see you do on social media is, I feel like you sort of debunk a lot of things about somatics, you know, so.
Mm-hmm. Really, like I what, and I appreciate your takes about like, you know, there's just a lot of stuff out there about somatics that I think. You know, I'm not, I'm not very, uh, it's not my like, zone of expertise, but I just get a sense that like, people get wrong 'cause it's just super generalized. And I think what you'd really do really well is like you break things down and you open things up, right?
Where things feel really like, um, rigid. You open things up and then where things are like really broad, you like, are really able to explain them [00:25:00] really well. So I'm wondering like, yeah, what are some things that people get wrong about somatics? Whether or not you wanna talk shit about it. You can be nice and graceful about it, or you can talk shit about it.
Either are welcome, but also bringing in this flavor of like, wanting to make somatics easy for people. That's, I love that. And I'm wondering Yeah, for our listeners, you know, like, how do we make this easy?
Abigail: Yeah. Thank you. Thank you so much. Um, I'll try and gracefully talk shit. That'll be my, oh, that's, that's the ecotone right there.
The egot tone. Um, okay. So a primary thing that does really grind my gears is the mistake in assumption that somatics is nervous system regulation. Um. That is, there's a part of it there, but to, to be talking about the body as a whole, but constantly talking about regulating the nervous system, regulating the nervous system, both overly simplifies and then ignores a lot of really important nuance in the conversation.
[00:26:00] Like regulated according to what and who according to whose terms. Right. Because a lot of this is tone policing. Actually, a lot of this is like, like one of the things that we need to consider calm and Headspace. Two apps that teach meditation and now are teaching like somatic meditation. There they are billion dollar apps.
If something is valued in the billion in the, the somatics industry, the wellness and somatics industry is a trillion dollar industry. Once something is that tied into capitalism, you have to wonder what's really, what's, who's benefiting. Right? And a lot of this stuff continues the, it just makes the body into a project.
And so it's like. When the pain goes away, when your nervous system is regulated, when you lose all that weight, when you have better orgasms, when you have a better relationship, when you make more money, when you do all this and everyone's selling everything all and commes
Kyley: and docile to the capitalist state.
Yes, yes.
Abigail: When you can just sit at your desk and do stuff for longer and you know, just suck it up. Basically [00:27:00] like, yuck. I just wave my hand in front of my face. Lizzo, there was a big stinky fart because it just feels so gross, right? Because it's like, well actually, I mean, somatics, one thing that is unfortunately horrifyingly apparent is that somatics ties really easily into eugenics.
Maha in the states, and honestly, globally is reviving something that was already ready. Right? The book Doppelganger by Naomi Klein does a really great job of breaking that down. Folks should definitely read it. I listen to it and she reads it and I. That was a great way to engage with it. Um, but if you're curious about that, sort of like where did all this weird sort of obsession with health come from?
Um, she does a really great job of breaking down how the COVID quarantines sort of a reignited tinder that was already there. Um, so that's one. So that's a, that's a one part of like what really [00:28:00] bothers me about somatics and it, and it's all fed into this reality that I can have a lot of compassion for that everyone's trying to hustle something 'cause.
Everyone's gotta have like four or five jobs to make basic income, right? And social media has made us all into products and it's, you know, we gotta stay relevant. So we start parrot, often start parroting things that we are, we call it trends, right? On TikTok, there's always these trends, but it often ends up people parroting things or it's like, you know, someone read a part of the body, keeps the score, which is a questionable book at best, and then starts talking about it as though they know stuff.
Right. Um, do you know, do either of you follow, I forget her name right now, but she's a Ukrainian, uh, professor of psychology and her thing is that she just breaks down people's claims. No, I know there's
Eva: some, some listener out there right now who's like speaks, hear name out loud. Yeah. Know Joey's wears
Abigail: like really funky, almost like Miss Frizzle outfits.
She's got [00:29:00] these, like these glasses and this really adorable accent. She's just like, you are wrong. It's just like, it's, I freaking love her. Um, yeah, I can't remember her name. But anyway, um, so all of that makes somatics into this, like, both overly simplified, but you know, like 10 steps. Two and then fill in the blank depending on whatever your goal market wants to fix.
Right? Name the problem, provide the solution. Marketing 1 0 1, but then it's like overly simplified and unnecessarily complex because in order to make you wanna buy my thing, I have to make sure that my thing seems really different than all these other things. And I have to like build myself up into this pedestal of like, I am.
The one who knows, right?
Eva: Mm-hmm.
Abigail: Pay me and entrance. Right. Versus, you know, creating relationships, having community offering our, like, individual perspective. You know, it's like, I mean, I'm saying all this, I sell [00:30:00] stuff on Instagram, but I'm, I'm always trying to sell perspective and relationship and, you know, the, the effect of, you know, hanging out with somebody who spent 20 years obsessively studying something is that you get to glean a lot of stuff from them.
That's what I'm trying to sell. Not like a, you know, do these 10 things and I promise you these things will happen. Mm-hmm. But like, do these, do these things, follow this method? That seems to work pretty damn well. I laid out in the book. But also I'll tell it to you all here. I call it the growl method. We can talk about it, but, um, an ease.
Ease is the result. Not easy, but ease. And in that simplifying of what we're trying to get. More nuance is able to arise. Mm-hmm. That makes sense. Mm-hmm.
Kyley: [00:31:00] All the snaps. Okay, great. Awesome. Yes, yes. So, uh, you probably don't know, but I'm a, um, my work is about money healing and business coaching, and specifically like anti-capitalist business coaching.
Awesome. Um, which I was just laughing the other day that I was like, for a long time marketing, anti-capitalist business coaching was confusing for people. And now it's like, now it's a, it is trendy. [00:32:00] Um, uh, but the, the point that I, I say that because I really, really deeply love what you were speaking to, which is that these, these healing modalities or these tools or these ways of being like, is this, the systemic oppression is always looking to co-opt.
Mm-hmm. And so whatever, something starts working or starts getting traction, it's like, oh, great, we can use that to prop back up the, the, this, you know, toxic systems. Mm-hmm.
Abigail: Um, you said to buy it.
Kyley: Yeah. Right. And I really, really love what you're saying about the result is ease. 'cause that brings me back to your beautiful image about gravity, which is for me, like when resistance fates.
Eva: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Right.
Kyley: Then we can like be in what is, I feel like I had a question and it has disappeared from my head. And so maybe Eva had the question.
Eva: [00:33:00] Well, so then I think, so that's going to the part two of the question, which is like, so then how can we make somatics easy? Easeful. Peaceful, ease.
Abigail: Useful.
Yeah. Okay. Well this is where I will share that acronym. I just, I just dropped, which is growl. It's like, it's what the book is framed around, um, ground or gravity, relate, observe, widen. So that makes grow. And then as I was writing the book, I was like, what is all this, if not love? Mm-hmm. And then it started as like a little joke with my editor.
I was like, I'm gonna call it growl. And she was like, yeah, maybe that's a little cheesy. And then eventually we were like, no, it actually is necessary. Growl. Mm-hmm. It's,
Eva: I love it. It's observes tone to it too. What's that? It's got a badass tone to it. Well, yeah.
Abigail: Thank you. And also it's like, love is a, this is about ferocity.
It's not about just like, the thing about, um, that I, you know, ease does not equate to easy. And it doesn't mean that I just like sit back and let the, let life happen. And it's just like, [00:34:00] well,
Eva: mm-hmm. I'm just
Abigail: letting go. I'm letting go of all resistance to whatever it is. It's like, fuck that. There's stuff here that requires a lot of resistance.
And also if we think of conflict as an ecotone where it's like, here's what you think, here's what I think and I'm gonna see what lives between, well, that doesn't happen. If one person is like, yeah, but I'm gonna just completely destroy you and your entire way of life. Then it's like, oh, well I guess we just have to learn how to get along.
It's like, no, some things need to be actually eradicated from the root. If they mean like the behavior, not the people.
Eva: Mm-hmm. But
Abigail: these takeover systems, they can't just be like allowed to do what they're gonna do, right? Mm-hmm. That, that to me is like trying to find the easy way out. Mm-hmm. Whereas ease an inner ease and an inner relationship with Earth, so you can like feel how your body's pulse is mirroring earth pulse, right?
Means [00:35:00] that now there's. I have force that's not just my own individual body to move through to move into these issues with, and that feels really important. But to make somatics easy, to not get too distracted from your question, gravity to me is, that's where I always start. Even in practices that I'm doing with people who've been studying with me for years, we're always gonna start, at least at the very beginning with just that.
Like, can you move into your own comfort? Let your body drop into gravity and feel how, okay, I'm, I'm here now.
Eva: Mm-hmm.
Abigail: And then we move into relationships relate. So it's like, okay, I'm having, I am actually always having a relationship with the space around me and my body is an ecosystem of relationships.
It's not even just human cells. There's eukaryotic, prokaryotic cells. I'm literally a multicellular, multispecies organism. So there's relationships within me and without me all the time. So can I. Meet those [00:36:00] relationships and be in a relational state before trying to observe stuff and get into my mind about stuff.
Being in just the ground and relate part of that. That's an easy somatic practice that can have radical shifts in just how the brain feels, how the mind feels, which are D two different things. How the heart feels, how the breath moves through the body. It's profound. Then once we move into that, we can get into the widen, which is where we start widening out and seeing, okay, well how do these pieces all inter interrelate?
It's not just about me and my one little life here on the cushion. It's a whole world that I'm trying to engage with and then understand how that leads us to a really different definition of love that is not proprietary. It's not hierarchical, it's it's essence. Right. So. I hope that made it sound easy.
Like if listeners, if all you can, if all you wanna do right now [00:37:00] is just see if you can let go of any resistance your body might have to the support that's underneath you and actually drop into it. Whether that's your car chair, whether you're driving or lying down or doing the dishes, there's something underneath you and you can drop into it.
Eva: Mm-hmm.
Abigail: And you can feel how that starts to change how you breathe and how you're, you know, you can even let the actual physical structure of your brain drop into the cave of your own skull. It's not about breathing in any kind of technique. Let the breath do what it needs to do. It's gonna get as, it's gonna be as long as it needs to be.
If you give it, if you give it time. And then it's not about counting or changing or trying to cr create a certain experience through manipulating the breath. It's about letting it be what? Letting it be what's there, right. Mm-hmm. And that's. It's simple, which means it's not very sellable. I basically just gave you the core of what I [00:38:00] do with people.
Some people have been with me for years because it's a practice that expands as you do it. Mm-hmm. But I guess I just gave you everything I do. You don't need to pay me anything. Right. It's like's just there. The trick is that layers and layers and layers of subtlety come forward as you do it over, over and over and over, long amounts of time, and you layer in an understanding of different ligaments, different muscles, different organs.
It's like it starts to just kaleidoscope out. Right. But at its core, super simple. Mm-hmm.
Kyley: All right. I have a question, which is mm-hmm. I'm gonna just use myself as an example. Coach me. No,
Abigail: you're asking for, but now I'm not just gonna like blunt force into it.
Kyley: One of the. I always remembered, uh, to me hilariously defining moment, which was when I was in yoga teacher training, which was when I was pregnant with my daughter.
She's six and a half now. Um, and I said to [00:39:00] my amazing, uh, teacher that I was like, I would prefer to be a head in a jar. It was so clear to me in yoga teacher training, how much my body was an uncomfortable
Eva: place to
Kyley: be. And one of the things that I watch a lot when I, you know, when I, and I'm a, I love everything you said about like being with what is right.
We're not breathing to change something. We're not. Anyways, I fucking love that. One of the things that I often experience, um, it's better than six and a half years ago, but um, is this, this sensation that rises up that's like, mm, the body's not a safe place to be.
Eva: Mm. Mm-hmm. And,
Kyley: and when I sit with what is, and you know, again, that's my practice then, right?
Is to sit in that and like, love what feels like unsafety. Um, and also it's not very pleasant. [00:40:00] And so I'm curious, um, and I don't think, I don't think that's a unique experience, right? Mm-hmm. I think I'm really aware of it and I can watch it, but I don't think it's unique. And so I'm curious if you have support or framing or something for that.
Abigail: Yeah. No, I mean, I really appreciate you bringing this up because it, it is, um, it's not a unique experience. It's really, uh, it's really common. And I actually think that this is another thing that bothers me about the somatics industry is this assumption and, and it, and. So I'm really grateful that you're giving me the opportunity to make sure that I'm clear that that's not what I'm trying to do is assume that everyone should or wants to be deeply aware of their own body, especially at first and even all the time.
Like, who's to say that dissociation isn't sometimes a really great thing, right? Like just to like expand out and leave it and then be, but then [00:41:00] hopefully be able to come back. But this is again, why I think starting with Gravity is so helpful because the gravity's gonna be constant. It's not going to suddenly change the rules on you.
And it's neutral, relatively neutral. Neutral. Like, neutral good, right? Like it's, it's calling you home and it's saying, okay, you belong here. But it's not trying to get into a conversation of why you don't have to defend yourself or earn it or, you know, worry that maybe tomorrow the rules are gonna change.
Or that like with even our most loving and wonderful relationships that maybe they, you know, people die. Like, you know, my beloved dog died who loved me unconditionally for 18 years. And I was destroyed even though, like logically, of course a dog 18, you know, like who died happily at home. It's not a tragedy.
But I was destroyed because there was this, where's that unconditional love? Well, it, it [00:42:00] reinforced, this was two years ago. It reinforced that I have to find it from gravity. I can't, I can't rely on it outside of that relationship. I also don't have to rely on it inside of myself. 'cause when, when my dog died, I, I was like, I don't know if I actually know how to do any of this stuff.
I've done only done it with her. Maybe she knew how to do it. And I just was like, you know, or I only knew how to do it because I had this awesome, you know, extra heart that lived outside of me. And so I remember lying in bed a few weeks, it was probably like two years ago, probably this week or something.
'cause she died in September. Um, of, yeah, two years ago. And I remember just being just, oh, it was just awful. And like, going back over every little time that I wasn't the perfect human for her and just, just missing her so much. Even, even though mentally I knew like, you know, she'd been in a lot of pain and now it was gone and everything.
And as I was just so wrecked by it [00:43:00] and feeling that like, like I think people, anyone who's gone through a significant loss knows that stage of grief where it's just like the guilt is just ripping at you. You know? It meant that my body was actually not a very comfortable or safe place to be because guilt lived there so strongly.
Oh. That time that I didn't take her on that walk. Instead, I went and did this thing, or like, she was having a great time and I was like, all right, I wanna go home 'cause I wanna go do my own thing. Or like, I lost, you know, I like. Raised my voice at her because she was being annoying for something. You know what I mean?
Like, I was a, I, like listeners don't know me, I was a really good dog parent to her, but I was like, but yes, when you're in it, it's like all I was just, all the stories are gonna come up. Yeah, exactly. Exactly. I know that's not unique to me because thankfully other people share about their grieving processes.
It's like a part, right? So I remember lying in bed and just being wrecked by it and feeling the bed underneath me and remembering like, oh, right. 'cause she, I, she died as I was recording [00:44:00] the audio version of the book. So I had finished the book and it was now in, in the year between finishing and then publication.
And I was like, okay, fuck. All right. Can I find the ground underneath me and drop into it? It suddenly really isn't about my body anymore. It's not about what has happened to me or is inside of me. It's about finding that underneath that I can rest into later then. I can follow the breath and feel for that undulation of the breathing diaphragm and the expansion of my lungs and all of that stuff later.
But in that first wave, or even just sometimes when it comes again and is required something much simpler than that, and it's not me, it's, I'm being held by some, by, I'll call it someone Mother Earth, but I'll just like, it's not, uh, it's not nearly as complicated as another human or even [00:45:00] a beloved pet.
It's this unconditional, inescapable relationship. So that I think is where we can go when the body doesn't feel safe or, or is like, you know, you're deep in an illness or an injury or something and you just can't be in the, can't be there right now. That's a way to find it without having to go in.
Kyley: [00:46:00] [00:47:00] Oh, you just gave words to something that.
Um, emotionally and spiritually I've experienced many times,
Eva: but,
Kyley: but often as an emotional journey, right? Like that, like emotional alchemy often feels emotions and body anyways, obviously very intimately linked, but you just gave me language around our bodies that's like, oh yeah, I do know that journey, right?
Mm-hmm. My body also knows that journey and, um, I'm struck by the way we can like buffer on the surface of something.
Eva: Mm-hmm. And,
Kyley: and sometimes it's really beautiful to like be with the buffering on the surface. Mm-hmm. But there is the reminder that you're [00:48:00] giving us gravity and there's a, oh, there is this thing that is holding us up and pulling us down into belonging always.
And we just Yeah. Sink down into that. So thank you. Thank you. Mm-hmm. And. I wanna, I, when you were sharing a story about your dog, it was making me think about when, um, I was, uh, engaged to my husband. We've, we've been together for, for a really long time. I met when I was 18 years old. That was not the plan.
Wow. Right. People are like, that was not the plan at all. But after a decade, we were like, I guess we should like, have a party and like, you know, make this official. Um, and now we've been married for, I dunno, 12 years. Um, when we were engaged, I remember realizing with horror that the commitment that we were making.
Was that one of us was gonna die. Like it was like, I remember like laying in bed and just like sobbing to him that I was like, this promise that we [00:49:00] made, like best case scenario is that one of us fucking leaves and the other one is stuck being really sad. Um,
Abigail: yeah. Mm-hmm. Yes.
Kyley: And I know you shared before we record, that you are engaged yourself and like in this moment of commitment.
So I was struck by, I was struck by the pairing of those moments, right? Yeah. That like to, to like open yourself up to love, like the open yourself up to loving your dog and experiencing that unconditional love is also to open yourself up to like the inevitability of just Yeah. Excruciating
Abigail: pain and grief, which is, yeah, because then what's the alternative?
You close yourself off to it and then you have the excruciating pain of loneliness and you still die.
Eva: Yeah.
Abigail: Yes. But it's, it's also like, that's a cute way of saying it, but it's also, it's true. It's like it's, mm-hmm. It's really quite something that we just keep on doing this, [00:50:00] you know, and like, wanting to do this.
Eva: I mean, that's why I think it's so brave to live with an open heart, because you know it's gonna get fucking shattered. Your heart is gonna get broken into a million pieces, and it takes courage. 'cause, I mean, I've been there, I've shut it down before, you know, I could just shut it down. I, I still do it in unconscious ways where I'm like, well, I'll just protect myself, but
mm-hmm.
That is, that's all, I mean, ultimately the, the, you know, the, the, the pain that comes with the good outweighs the pain of just shutting down. But, um, yeah. But being a human is fucking crazy. I mean, let's just be real.
Abigail: Yeah. It's a wild ride. It's true.
Eva: Yeah.
Abigail: Yeah.
Eva: Yep. So is this, is this a good time to transition into this conversation about commitment?
Because this seems like it's something that's alive in your life. Yeah. Can you share with our audience, you said you, you shared that you had recently gotten. Well, Kyley, before we move on, do you have any other questions that you wanted? Okay. No,
Kyley: I was, I was excited to create the transition into our commitment.
Yeah. Great job chat.
Eva: So you recent or how long have you been [00:51:00] engaged? You're engaged now? It's been just about a month. Oh wow. Was what's super doing a season because
Abigail: he said that that eclipses bring the truth to light. Oh,
he's really the best. I love him so much.
Eva: So, and you had mentioned that, you know, as you're now navigating then what it means to be in commitment, the two of you are exploring like, um, yeah. Yeah. Can you speak a little bit more about that and
Abigail: Yeah. It's, it's an, it's a really, I mean, it's a really beautiful ride.
Our, our relationship is, um, I mean, I like, it's one of the ones I pinch myself about where I'm just like, wow, this is really, this is really beautiful. It's really easy. It's really deep. It's really fun. It's really like he listens and supports me in ways that just blow, blow me away. Um, and so our conversations about commitment, follow that pattern where it's like, it's really, it's easeful, it's [00:52:00] fun, it's deep.
Um, we're both really listening to each other and, and, um, and enjoying the sort of dance around what, what it means. Mm-hmm. Um, we, we plan to get married sometime next fall, early September. So, you know, we have this time to sort of explore and question. Um, but yeah, it's like. And also, you know, we, both of us have been mostly single.
Like even when we've been partnered, our partnerships were more kind of like much more dating than like partnerships. Mm-hmm. So we're also exploring what it means to like, you know, we have to kind of remind ourselves sometimes like, oh, right, I don't have to do this alone. Like, I get to lean on you in this way.
Two, two minds are holding this question, not just one. Right? Mm-hmm. Whatever that's about. Whether it's about whether it seems like it's our own personal, like now that our lives are, you know, over the past month since we crossed over that threshold of being engaged, which I didn't expect to [00:53:00] be as profound as it's been, but it's like, oh, it really is this, we're like, it's no longer like, oh yeah, I really love how our lives are kind of like moving along together.
It's like, oh, we're, we're creating our own ecosystem here. This is something that's going to. You know, hopefully last until death, which fucking sucks. But also is hopefully really beautiful. Sorry if I've introduced to that. No, no, you don't. I haven't. And also he's got Scorpio Moon. He is like, this is, oh yeah, he is.
This is his cup of tea. But, um, I got him a bumper sticker for his birthday. It says we all die with flowers. And he is like, I love it.
Oh my God. So, um, yeah, like how to make, like what does it mean to commit to someone or also something, um, in ways that allow for growth and change and unexpectedness and doesn't just follow into [00:54:00] the colonial settler mentality of monogamous marriage. Dr. Kim Tall Bear is an amazing scholar to check out if you're.
However you feel, unless, unless you're just like, monogamy is a thing and I just wanna follow my traditional values. Um, any other relationship style from that would probably really benefit from listening to what she has to say about monogamy as a, as a, as a tool of colonialism. It's pretty, it's pretty dope.
And so how do we explore deep committed relationships from outside of the framework of, it has to be your mine and I'm yours, while also holding that depth of Yeah, like, just like the earth says, okay, you're mine, you belong here. How is it like that? Rather than like, oh, but you're mine and I'm also gonna like, hold your arms down and keep you right here just like this.
[00:55:00] Right. So in my personal, really in my most intimate relationship, that's really alive. But I'm also thinking about like, well, how do I commit to. My work in that way so that the work gets to stay alive and grow and shift with me. How do I commit to, you know, anything in a way that allows for growth and change and surprise.
It's mm-hmm. A question that's, yeah, it's really alive for me right now, but
Eva: like what, what have you learned so far? And I'm kind of like putting you on the spot I learned so far.
Abigail: Well, one person, I was recently at this kind of like, it was like part retreat, part conference, um, and there was a person there who's a chaplain and they were talking about how, and I was talking about this is like, they were like, what's the questions most live for you?
And I was like, ah, this. Um, and they were talking about how uh, they do so many ceremonies of vow renewals that they've started to really feel into the importance of like, including that in, from, from jump. That this is going to be [00:56:00] something that we revisit and hone and say, is this still, does this still feel true to you?
And then holding space for the ways that then, if the commitment is to the relationship, not even the form of the relationship, but just this relationship that you're having with this other person. And then you can question and hone and sort of redefine, you know, every year or however long, however, however many intervals you wanna do it, and be like, does this still feel true?
Does this still feel right? Or do we need to adjust? Mm-hmm. And I thought that was a really cool way to think about it.
Eva: Mm-hmm.
Abigail: My partner's Libra, he was like, yeah, that sounds great.
Eva: Well, I just, yeah. I just wonder, wow, that just sounds amazing. Like if that were implemented in all, you know, all
Abigail: right, long
Eva: term, 'cause we're always changing,
Abigail: we're always changing.
And
Eva: to expect that we're not is like suicide, you know? Because then like resentment happens. Well, it's also just. [00:57:00]
Abigail: So it just flattens everything down.
Eva: Yeah. Right. Yeah. Rather
Abigail: than being like, okay, which, like, how, who is this person in front of me every day? Right. Friendships and, and, you know, communities and jobs and all of it.
If it's like, I think it's a real bummer to use a flat word for it, that we, um, define success by longevity only. Mm. Right. It's a fundamental flaw in the framework because mm-hmm. If the goal is always to just stay together
Eva: mm-hmm.
Abigail: To stay at the job, to stay in the relationship, to stay friends. 'cause we've been friends forever to, you know, whatever it is.
Well, I've, I'm missing the mark on, on how to define growth and. Yeah, it's a
Eva: measuring stick that isn't really necessarily measuring the quality of something, you know?
Abigail: Yeah, exactly. It's like a measuring stick when really it's like, it's a sphere, [00:58:00] so you're trying to like, you know
Eva: mm-hmm.
Abigail: Calculus throwback.
Kyley: One of the things I think about a lot is, um, so I have a 6-year-old and I have an 8-year-old, um, who's very keen on telling everybody he's almost nine. That was a really big difference. Yeah. And, um, um, and one of my mantras as a mother, which I think applies here, is that I don't know my kids. Mm. And what I mean by that is like.
Just because my son loved something or showed up a certain kind of way when he was three, like almost 9-year-old. ISN is not like he gets to change. He's constantly evolving. And we all know the pain of like with our like family of origin where God, you always see me in this fucking role. And that was 30 years ago, right?
And so I don't always do this expertly, but it is like just one of my truths as a mother. It's like I don't actually know my kids. Mm-hmm. And so my, like, my job is to be in like awe and delight and curiosity as they [00:59:00] reveal themselves be and gain, they need to be that version of themselves knowing they could be a new version of themselves tomorrow.
And I think that that same philosophy applies to like long-term partnership too, right? Mm-hmm. And that's actually one of my favorite things about, I think with my husband for so long is. Seeing how we're so fucking different than we were obviously 22 years. And also the ways in which we are, we are, we are very much the same, right?
Mm-hmm. But, um, but I, as you're talking, as you're asking this question about commitment, that's what I'm thinking about is like commitment that allows us to hold really loosely who the person is and be in curiosity and awe about who they wanna be and who they are becoming. And like, being in the reverence of like, I get to, I get to know who you are.
I get to learn you, I get to discover you, and it's, and, and you are, and you are [01:00:00] not static. And the more space I give you to be this like evolving unknown being with, by natural extension, there's more space for me to also be that evolving, unknown being.
Abigail: Yeah, yeah, yeah. And then there's also the tension of like.
When you know a place or a person over a long time, you know, things about that place or that person, like thinking about it, like, you know, the woods where I grew up, it's like, well, I know those woods in a way that, I don't know, a, a new place. Right? Yeah. Um, and there's that comfort and familiarity there.
And, you know, that's the thing about a long-term committed relationship is like, oh yeah, I, I do know you, but I also don't need to hold you to what I know of you. Mm-hmm. Right? Mm-hmm. There's like a mm-hmm. Yes. De there's a good way to put it. Yes. Yeah. Yes. Yeah.
Eva: I feel like there's a way in which these, these, the solid parts, like knowing somebody and having that comfort can actually [01:01:00] are there to support us and actually being more free.
It's like the way that I experienced, like, okay, Kyley, I think you gave me a wonderful analogy once of like with my partner. He's like solid and he's like my tree, and I am like this bird, right? That's just like fluttering around and like doing like exploring and very colorful and kind of like, you know, whatever all over the place.
And he's like this solid base for me to explore myself and be more free. And I actually think you can apply that to the, to a relationship too. Like the relationship can be a solid base where there is security, there is trust, there's openness. But I think what you were sort of speaking to Abigail, like at the top of the show is like, but how?
And so like that's the commitment, but also how does it, how does that commitment, honor both of us so that we can be free at the same time? You know? And I think it is another sort of, I don't know if I'm using this word accurately in this, but like an ecotone of like both.
Abigail: Yeah,
Eva: both.
Abigail: Yeah.
Eva: Or an
Abigail: image that's coming to me that I'm really excited to play with is [01:02:00] like if the relationship becomes the ground and then we have two different trees that are like feeding into the soil.
And then, so receiving nourishment and also feeding into it.
Eva: Mm-hmm.
Abigail: Um, that feels like a beautiful analogy to explore about what commitment is, right? Mm-hmm. Um, and then, yeah, a, a forest eco ecotone or ecosystem is never just two individual trees. There's a whole lot of other things happening around it.
Like when, when we were first, um, you know, getting like deepening together, we talked about like not wanting to just fall into that classic monogamy role of like, okay, well now you're my only relationship that I'm allowed to have like depth and, right. Mm-hmm. Especially being a queer person, it's like, and just not wanting to get boxed into like, oh, well what does that mean?
You know what I mean? Like, 'cause it's not like in the traditional cis het world, it's like, okay, well you're not supposed to have male friends, and then mm-hmm. But then it's like, [01:03:00] you know, but then, but that's not the only gender that I've ever. That I have attraction to, but also it's not about that. It's like there's just a landmine of stuff that I was coming into from relationships that hadn't gone well where I was just like, I don't wanna get, you know?
Yeah. Squeezed in track. Yeah, squeezed in. And then also not wanting to like, have either of us feel like we couldn't have a depth of intimacy with other people while understanding that some relationships pull away from that central relationship or seek to, right? Mm-hmm. And that's where it starts to feel like, okay.
'cause I was, you know, thinking about what Kin Bert talks about. How about these like, kinship, uh, like these kinship circles. It's like, it's not about sex, it's actually just about like love and care and mutual belonging.
Eva: Mm-hmm.
Abigail: Okay. Well I want that, you know, um, I, you know, I rather than like naming something as polyamorous or ethical non-monogamy, which can have all these other overtones or undertones.
[01:04:00] Understanding that, that a relationship thrives within a context of other relationships.
Eva: Mm-hmm. Right.
Abigail: It's like my partner and I are monogamous, but I don't want it to be like monoculture. Right. Yeah. It's like there's, I mean, thank goodness for my friends, like my friend Josh, who I mentioned, like, thank goodness I have him where I can go to him and just be like, I'm working through this thing that I don't want to bring my partner right now because Yes.
Yep. 'cause it's mine right now. I wanna work on it for me.
Kyley: Right, right. And also, just like we have, you know, thinking of like my collection of best friends, uh, uh, there's, there's things that Eva is the person I wanna talk to you about. Mm-hmm. Right? Mm-hmm. And there are things that is like first line of defense, like, this is like hot off the press and I need to process it.
And Eva is the person. And then there's things that are like, oh my God, I gotta go have coffee with Megan. Like Megan is the person, right? Mm-hmm. And Nick. Is like, he is my [01:05:00] person. He is like, we, we are home together. And also he's not the fucking person for everything. He's not. Mm-hmm. Right. Would not, and it's unkind to him to ask him to be Eva 'cause he's not.
Right. Right. It's unkind to
Eva: him and to yourself because then you have this one person that you're relying on and then with their, then, then what happens when they, when they're not here way too much. Yeah. Like putting,
Abigail: it's like building a house on one single peer. It's like it's going to fall over, you know?
Eva: Yeah. Mm-hmm. Yes. So yes. Yeah. You're really good with these analogies and metaphors. Oh yeah. I mean, in good company Kyley, she's giving you run for your money. Yeah. And so,
Abigail: um, thinking about things, you know, thinking about commitment also to a commitment to the health and longevity of this relationship.
Like maybe we can take it out of the realm of romantic relationship with had to what has a lot of layers, but even talk about. Um, like friendships, right? It's like, 'cause in friendships we're already culturally tuned to, we don't just have one.
Eva: Mm-hmm. [01:06:00] Right? Mm-hmm.
Abigail: So, but also I would imagine, just like from my experience of the two of you, that it would be really hard for you if like, either of you had a friend that was constantly trying to undercut your relationship with the other one, right?
Like, oh yeah, Eva, like, she thinks it mm-hmm. Like blah da, whatever. Right? That would be like, okay, I don't think I can be close to you because either we need to talk about this and figure out what's going on or what is going on. 'cause you're trying to sever a connect a connection that nourishes me, right?
Yes. So, thinking about that as a commitment that like, you know, I commit to this connection that nourishes me. I commit to nourishing it and I commit to holding. Clarity around any other thing that tries to come in, whether that's another person or another job or another thing, or another that or my own, because I stuck the connection right out of the room.
Wow.
Eva: I love that. Yeah. I would never put that in there, but you're right. Mm-hmm.
Abigail: Yeah. So I commit to having a healthy relationship [01:07:00] with things that seek, pull connection away.
Eva: Mm-hmm.
Abigail: While also having space and connection with others that allow me to pour even more into our, into our committed connection.
Right. Yeah. That's with my partner or with my friends who are like family.
Eva: Yeah. I'm so happy you made that distinction. 'cause I think that's, yeah. Really helpful. Yeah. Just to clarify. Yeah. Mm-hmm.
Kyley: I'm also thinking, when you were mentioning friendship too, it made me think about, um, how much certain friendships that I have are really, really strong.
In part because I've given myself moments to really ask if I wanna keep the friendship
Eva: right,
Kyley: like long term, important, meaningful friendships where I've given myself permission to be like, okay, are we all in, are we gonna hash this shit out? Or are we gonna like, have, you know, are, are we choosing this together and therefore gonna be honest [01:08:00] with each, you know, whatever that, whatever that looks like, whatever that requires.
Or are we gonna just lovingly like, let this be be the end? Mm-hmm. And being willing to ask that question has been just incredibly potent in strengthening those friendships. Um, and I think that the same thing, I mean, the same thing is, is, is true of romantic relationships, right? There's this way in which, not that I think we wanna constantly be like, do I still wanna be married?
Right. It's not, it's not so much as like. Really seeing that it is a choice that we make over and over again, and that we have agency to make a different choice. And therefore if we are choosing this, like then we, then, then, then we show up. Then there's this kind of integrity about how we're choosing to show up.
Mm-hmm. Um, but commitment and choice feel very intimately connected to one another. Mm-hmm. Definitely. Yeah.
Abigail: Yeah. And it's true. And also having, like with friendships, I think there's also a value in, in letting things have their [01:09:00] own pulse, right? Mm-hmm. Bring it back to the body. The body doesn't just have a heartbeat.
It has all sorts of different pulses, and some of them are really long. Mm-hmm. Um, and so it might mean that, you know, I'm gonna say goodbye, I'm just gonna take some space and see you in a year or two. I don't know, you know? Mm-hmm. And then mm-hmm we come back and yeah, longevity is not the only, does not mean failed, right?
Like mm-hmm. An end is not, an end is not a failure. That's another chapter in my book called, um. Never a failure, always a lesson borrowing from the tattoo Rihanna has around her neck. But, uh, um, that there's, um, in the body, uh, a branching for a branch of the body, like where it bifurcates is actually called a ramification, which in the language of consequences that feels like uhoh, there's ramifications for your actions.
But in the language of nature and the body, it's actually now, well now there's branching, now there's actually branching options in a [01:10:00] way. Mm-hmm. So if I think of it in terms of like, oh, there's a, there's this consequence for my actions, that means that there's like the failures on the table. That's, uh, that's a way that I would approach any kind of conflict or any kind of commitment.
But if instead it's saying, okay, well every choice makes other branching options. Mm-hmm. Right. Then I'm either going to, and I'll either follow them or I'll. Find my way into another one, but it's not a end. Right? It's like there's a branching quality to it.
Eva: Mm-hmm.
Abigail: Mm-hmm.
Eva: Uh, well first of all Abigail, I just wanna say I applaud you for your versatility 'cause you can really go all over with conversation, which is a super fun.
Um, and this has just been such an amazing conversation. And you have an, I think you said you have an Oracle deck. You have an Oracle deck coming out at some point, and you already have other ones, correct?
Abigail: Yeah, I, so, okay, so I [01:11:00] made a deck called the Somatic Tarot. Mm-hmm. Back in, I first published it in 2019.
Eva: Mm-hmm.
Abigail: Um, but it's now, it's now out of print. Although I do have books still available that are mm-hmm. That are the same size as a regular tarot deck and are meant to be able to go. And so if you bought a tarot deck that has just like the little paper pamphlet and you want something a little bit different, um, it's a really like radical inclusive, body-based approach to the tarot.
Um, and then
Eva: when you have your new deck come out, you can always come back on the show, is what I wanna say. I mean, which is
Abigail: really so fun. Yeah. That deck's called the Body Oracle. It was originally just an 18 card deck that I self-published, but that as like part of the push, like my me, my mind needed another practice when I was working on the.
Manuscript for returning home to our bodies. And then after returning home came out, the publisher was like, we'd really like to expand this, and now it's gonna be 80 cards went 80 and it comes out in August. And I'm so thrilled. So I'll happily come back and talk about it. Yeah, you're a really [01:12:00] fun guest.
Eva: And also how can people work with you? So how can they find you? And I know you have a bunch of courses and workshops too.
Abigail: Yeah, so I've got a lot of stuff on my website. My website is my full name, Abigail Rose clark.com. You can find, um, I'm building an Embodied Anatomy library, so I will do live classes, but then the recordings live on my website.
Uh, those are just $10. So if you're like interested in the lungs or in the pelvis, that's what I've got so far. The next one I'll do is on the spine. Um, and then I have an ongoing somatic learning space called Anchor Community. We, I offer two sessions a week. It's a monthly subscription so people can join for as little or as long as they want.
Um, it's pretty awesome if I do say so myself. It's a really sweet. Connection and, and community of really kind people. And then when people are in anchor community, they can do private sessions, whether tarot readings or somatic sessions with me for half the cost of what I offer them on my website. So if you're looking and you're like, oh, a tarot reading would be really cool.
Well it would, it would [01:13:00] financially, it would just benefit you to join Anchor and then, and then sign up for one, because I want that to be more accessible for people in Anchor. Um, people can buy my book anywhere. Books are sold. It's a available worldwide, and it's in audio, uh, ebook and print. Um, yeah. And then Woo.
Yeah. Mm-hmm. A other things on my website, but that's basically it. And then Instagram is a, that's my social media platform of choice, so you can find me there. And I, I might take a minute to re to respond to dms, but I always do try, so people are welcome to reach out to me there.
Eva: Amazing. Okay. So you guys ready for joy?
For our round of joy? Yeah, let's do it. Joy. Okay. Abigail is our guest. What's one thing that's bringing you joy in this moment? Um, wait,
Abigail: and while we were breaking for a moment, you got to meet her, but my, my dog, Dalia, I mentioned my dog Loie, who passed and then six months later. I did not think I was gonna get another dog, but, or that soon.
But she was a little stray ragamuffin and, um, has [01:14:00] she, we call it the Dahlia Show. She's so silly. I don't know how she is so comedically silly, but she really is. And she just brings us a lot. Like, it's just constant giggles around what she is and who she is and what she does. So it's all, yeah.
Eva: Yeah. Our animal friends are the best.
Abigail: They really are. I know. She's such a goober. Oh my gosh. She's Dahlia tuber. The biggest goober. That's her full name, actually.
Eva: I love it. I gotta get her an
Abigail: Instagram. Yeah. I, I probably should, I probably get a lot more followers. Yeah.
Eva: Um,
Kyley: um, okay, Eva, my love. What's bringing you joy?
Eva: Well, I'm currently, you know, visiting my brother in, in la um, back in my hometown, more like the San Gabriel Valley.
For anybody who knows LA it's like this amazing Asian enclo, which I love. And what's making me joy is the fucking mall, because I can't, it's just, so this is the same mall that I went to when I was like a [01:15:00] little kid, like junior high, high school. I still remember like pagers were a thing and I like, we'd like, you know, look at cute guys from across the mall.
And I don't even think malls are, I don't know, are they in existence anymore in other places? I don't think so. But this mall specifically is like thriving and kicking because Asian people love to shop and I'm in LA and so I've just, I, you know, I'm back in LA and I, I had to like go and I pick up some stuff that I don't, I can't get when I'm living overseas.
And I just, the joy of not having to shop online shopping online drives freaking nuts sometimes because, and then it's like, you don't know if something fits blah, blah, blah, and all the mailing and, and it's just so nice to go to like a store that's also has some sentimental value for me. And like, you go to the food court and it's genuine.
Like, I don't know, there's something, so I would've never thought that this would be like the thing that I, that I love doing, but I, it's like a guilty pleasure of, I don't even know if it's guilty. It's just a pleasure of mine. So them all.
Kyley: I love that [01:16:00] Eva is, back in America Joy's last year your joy was like the abundance of chips in the grocery store or something.
It's like you get a, you get away from the like weirdness of American culture and then you're back and you're just,
Eva: I love, I love light. Yeah. Then I have so much more appreciation, you know, like I fucked up a whole huge thing of Rocky Road ice cream without any like, reservation, like huge because I don't get Rocky Road ice cream, like where I am and it's my favorite flavor.
So, um. Yeah, that's, it's nice. Those things are nice. Kyley, what's bringing you joy right now?
Kyley: Um, okay, two things. One is, uh, my husband, I don't talk about him that often on the show. Uh, mostly 'cause you know, my sweet little Capricorn is private person. But, um, I, yeah man, he's just had my back a lot lately and having two small kids is, I guess maybe not that, not that small anymore, but [01:17:00] it's just easy to be like ships passing in the night.
And I am so grateful for the ways that he has my back and chooses us and is like really fun and silly. And yeah, I just feel really grateful for the way that he holds me and my tender. Messy heart, um, and soup, cooking soup. Oh,
Abigail: soup season is upon us. What's your favorite right now?
Kyley: Uh, and I love, I have an ambivalent relationship to cooking, but I love cooking soup and it's just like so much fun.
The other night the kids were like, hanging out with Nick in the other room and I just had like, music and a glass of wine and made soup and I was just like,
Abigail: ah, so good. So what'd you make? What's your favorite right now?
Kyley: Uh, I, I
Eva: make a mean lentil soup. That is like my most angry go-to. Okay. I, I wanna hear all of our soups.
Do you have a soup? Abigail? The go-to soup. Um,
Abigail: I mean this time of year any kind of squash soup is a phase [01:18:00] because the squashes are coming in and they're just like, soap hum. Mm-hmm. But a go-to soup that I'll make, especially like, I definitely corded my fiance with this soup is, um, it's got sweet potatoes, tomatoes, coconut milk.
Peanut butter and a bunch of like ginger, garlic, cumin, grander, those kinds of spices.
Eva: Yes.
Abigail: Oh my God, yes.
Eva: Yeah. I also love making soups and eating soups, and I have a killer cauliflower soup that I make that's so easy. If you guys want the recipe, I can share it with you so easy. And then also I do. Okay. I can send it to you.
I also just love like a good chili or like a kale. I make a really good kale bean sausage soup also. That one. I want that one. I will be Alright. Thank you so much for being here with us. This was just so much fun.
Abigail: Yeah. Thank you. This was great time. Yeah. Loved it. Okay.