Author Jessica Fern joins us to discuss non-monogamy, polyamory, and the self-love journey of finding secure attachment.
Author Jessica Fern joins us to discuss non-monogamy, polyamory, and the self-love journey of finding secure attachment.
Jessica's Website - www.jessicafern.com
Eva's instagram: @iamevaliao
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Kyley's Instagram: @kyleycaldwell
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E155
Kyley: [00:00:00] Hello. Hello. Welcome to Hello Universe. It's Kyley with a solo intro and this conversation was such a treat. Um, but before I tell you all the juicy details about our guest Jessica Fern today, um, I wanna let you know about two very cool things. One, Your beloved Pal Evil has an offer right now with Federico, who has been a guest on our show a handful of times now.
I think three times. Um, each one matters on the last, and they have a group program right now. Doors are [00:01:00] open club loving selves into power, and I cannot speak more emphatically about how much I think this program is going to blow everybody's minds. Um, Every time I am lucky enough to be in a virtual room with Eva and Fede, I cry.
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The answer is self love. And um, these two humans have. More wisdom than I can count in this area. And, um, uh, I just, I'm just madly in love with both of them. So, um, if you're in a place of longing and that kind of quiet dissatisfaction where you know things could be better and you don't quite know where to turn, I would invite you to step into this program and watch your whole life change.
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And a lot of people can teach you some strategy and they can teach you some mindset. But this is a program that really weaves the two together so that. You can step into a strategy and use sales skills that don't feel icky, that actually feel really fucking good for you and your body and your signature magic in the world.
Um, and I got three spots left as a time of recording this for this current cohort. So if you want one of those three spots, shoot me a message. Um, It's big magic. It's a really great program. So if you, one of my clients said to me the other day, your tagline should just be, um, business coaching people who just want their [00:04:00] businesses to fucking work already.
So if that's you, you just want your business to fucking work already. I am your girl and the business incubator is a truly tremendous program, and I can't wait to have you in it. Are you one of my three? Okay. Now without further ado, Jessica Fern. Ugh. This conversation was so much fun. So Jessica is an author.
Um, she has written a beautiful book about poly being called Poly Secure. It's about polyamory and attachment styles, and she has another book coming out in the fall. Her story and her wisdom here is so fascinating. Whether you are mono monogamous, whether you are single, whether you are in relationship, whether you are poly curious, wherever you are on the spectrum, um, this is a really beautiful conversation about what it means to be intimate and in relationship and the incredible [00:05:00] vulnerability of love and self-love and, um, The journey in so that we can have deeper relationships with people and also the project of disentangling yourselves from the kind of indoctrination of the way things have to be and who you have to be and what the rules are supposed to be.
Um, I love this conversation so much and I have no doubt that you will as well. So jump on in.
Eva: Hello Jessica. Welcome to Hello E155 Universe. We are so excited to have you.
Jessica: Thank you. I'm excited to be here.
Eva: Um, so as you know, the first question that we ask all of our guests is, what's one thing life is teaching you at the moment?
Jessica: Yeah. It's teaching me how to assert myself. Not that I didn't before, but it's like, you know, up the spiral, the new level of [00:06:00] Right. Cuz um, my pattern is being an amazing partner who partners with people who have very legitimate needs. And so it's a great excuse to put my needs in the background. Um, and it's not working.
So I'm really learning what it is to like, Hold my needs in the relationship just as important as my partners and making sure I'm advocating for that.
Eva: Mm.
Jessica: Yeah. Yeah. And so it, yeah,
Eva: gonna say, that doesn't sound like fun. I mean, I'm sure it's great,
Jessica: it's, as I, well, it, it's making me, I'm having to really learn how to like, um, undo the withdraw, like the tendency to pull back and wanna flight, even just internally, right?
Like, Ooh, I'm just gonna like, withdraw for a day
Eva: mm-hmm.
Kyley: Hmm.
Jessica: speak up. Right. I'm having to go, oh, shit, I've really gotta, like, lean in and speak up. Mm-hmm. Right?
Kyley: Yeah.
Jessica: Yeah. Yeah. [00:07:00] So that's
Kyley: I love that you're, I love that you're pointing to the internal moment, right? That the withdrawal role can be totally internal and then can, like, therefore we can overlook it, right? Because you're present
Jessica: Oh yeah. I, I'm, So I'm so here, I'm so there for you.
Kyley: Mm-hmm.
Jessica: I'm so right. But the internal, I'm, oh, I'm starting to, to contain, I'm starting to like churn in a way internally that's actually a withdrawing. Yeah. And to just not do that anymore,
Kyley: Can I ask how you like, what are your tells? How do you notice when you're starting to do the withdrawal? Because I feel like PO breaking that habit must start with the witnessing.
Jessica: Yeah. Um, that's a great question. It's some of, it's like very somatic, you know, like I actually feel like a somatic sort of contraction that starts to happen, you know, and like, oh, I'm feeling a pulling back. Um, but [00:08:00] usually it's like there's getting triggered in a certain way, like feeling the emotional triggered ness, you know, feeling that like, oh, there's something that's up.
And I, the back and forth, oh, I wanna come to you up. I don't up on this, up from that, you know? Yeah.
Eva: Yeah.
Jessica: a combination of those things.
Eva: Yeah.
Jessica: Yeah. Yeah. Or last night, this actually came up last night. My cat like, woke me up, made a noise at like 11, and then there was like, the part of me just was like screaming, you know?
And I was like, shit, I can't go back to sleep there. It's Yeah. Yeah.
Kyley: I think the other thing I love about what you're speaking to is the phrase you said, making my needs as important as my partners or my cats because I feel like it's so, cause I'm a mom of two small kids, so that's probably where this shows up loudest for me, although I do it many places. But, um, it's so easy to [00:09:00] gaslight ourselves our own needs because the other person's needs are really legitimate, right?
Like, oh, my partner's really tired, or, oh, my kids need to eat. Or, oh, like your need is valid, therefore I must make my needs smaller. Right? Because someone's has to be big and someone has to be small. And I feel like what you're speaking to, part of the tremendous complexity of it is what I hear you speaking to is a space in which both needs are valid.
And then there's some real, like, new territory that has to be created.
Jessica: Yeah, exactly.
Eva: Ooh. I love that. The new territory though though. I feel like oftentimes when we can get there, it's a beautiful space. I think it's possible. Right? So we just have to remember that actually it's possible and it can be really beautiful. I think it's the getting there that actually feels uncomfortable.
Jessica: Yeah. Yeah. Well, I think, you know, I've had two relationships this last year where one of them, I'm started to bring my needs more and they couldn't hold it.
Eva: Mm.
Jessica: they didn't like it. I mean, and they loved me and, and [00:10:00] theoretically wanted my needs there, but when it actually, I was like, Here's my, and not even sometimes needs, here's my feelings.
I'm not even like, right. I'm just sharing feelings. No blame, no criticism, um, or here are some of my needs. They couldn't hold it and they couldn't like course. Correct. Right. And then they started to dismiss or attack or minimize, right? And it's like, oh, that is the risk, right? I brought my needs. Now the relationship's over.
It's true. Right? Whereas I have this other relationship where it's like I'm bringing my needs and they're responding so kindly and lovingly and with curiosity. And not that they don't get reactive, but there's that openness to me and my needs, and it's like, yeah. So then every time it comes up it's like, oh, we go deeper.
We get closer.
Eva: Hmm.
Jessica: So it's.
Eva: I, I feel like this might be a good segue into talking about attachment. And before we do that, I just need to spend a couple minutes to fan girl out. So I have your book here, [00:11:00] poly
Jessica: Oh, with With little things.
Eva: like, with a little bookmark things and, okay. I just wanna give a little bit of background for.
For listeners and for you, first of all, I think I, I just love it when I go into bookstores and just see this on the shelf. I, I've seen this in the big bookshelves at Strand in Portland and here in Austin too. Um, and I just moved from Portland to Austin and I could only bring a couple of things. And I think I brought six books with me.
And your book was one of them because
Jessica: made the cut.
Eva: Yeah, you made, you made the cut. I mean, you know, it's, it's because I, I think it's a wonderful book on polyamory, but really it's a wonderful book on attachment styles, which like, it's, it's both and I actually recommend it to people, to my clients who necess, who aren't necessarily interested in polyamory, but who wanna understand attachment theory.
You explain it so well and I think. For our listeners, I would imagine that we probably have the gamut, which is like, we have people who are familiar with attachment styles, maybe like [00:12:00] in the pop culture, like meme Instagram world where it, it might not go very deep. And then we have probably have people on the other end who are
Jessica: You really
Eva: yeah, who are like, who've done the work, you know, they've researched.
Um, so I do wonder if you can spend some time maybe just giving, I don't know, Cliff's notes version of,
Jessica: Yeah. Yeah.
Eva: attachment. And I will say since learning about this, my whole life has like, just understanding myself has been like, like I finally, you gave me words to things that I didn't understand about myself previously.
So thank you.
Jessica: Thank you. Yeah, thank you. So yeah, I'll give Oh yeah.
Kyley: Just before Jessica answers this question, I just have to pause and say that Eva, the one moment in which I have most hated the idea of your move across country is this idea of only bringing six books like I'm some Part of me is shriveling up and dying inside and having a total panic
Eva: Girl. It was hard. It's not fun. It's so, it's so hard.
Kyley: I was along with a whole journey [00:13:00] and all of a sudden that statement just made it so real that I was like, oh, I would just die.
I could never do that. Okay, carry on. Please answer this real, an important and interesting
Jessica: Can I tell you a story? Actually, can we tangent for a moment? A few years ago we, um, good, my family removed from Colorado to Costa Rica and so we paired our life down. I had like two suitcases, like right, and then like a friend had a box of some like, you know, statues and ornamental things and I was like, you'll mail this to me one day.
So, I mean, I might have had like, yeah, a dozen books or something like that, that I was like, this is it. And then we got to Costa Rica and where we specifically lived there was so moldy that within days, like half of what we bought, brought with us. That was already paired down, so it was the most special, valuable things like were ruined and all of the books had to go.
Eva: Oh my God.
Jessica: Yeah. Like the paper, like it all curled and like musty, [00:14:00] moldy. Yeah. So know,
Eva: that's a heartbreaking story for your books, but also I cannot believe that you would get to Costa. I mean, that just sounds so, that's a story for sure. Getting
Jessica: It's a whole, right. Maybe it'll come up again. Yeah. Yes. Okay. But in terms of the overview of attachment, right, it's, um, the basic overview of attachment theory is that, you know, we're born into this world and we have, we need to attach right away to people who were, take care of us in order to survive. And that's not just a physical needs of, you know, Being safe and fed and changed and warm.
But it's the emotional, biological, psychological needs of having caretakers who are attuned to us, who are available, and who are responsive enough of the time. And if we get that enough of the time, we feel safe with them, we feel secure within ourself, right? We know when I need something, I can reach out and you'll be there most of the time, [00:15:00] right?
And, and then our whole nervous system is primed to then actually explore the world and feel safe to explore the world and feel safe to explore ourselves and relationships, right? Secure attachment. But over 50% of the time, it doesn't happen, right? And for many reasons, that could be our parents' fault and not our parents' fault at all.
Right? Cultural issues, societal issues, right? Challenges that people have that are not just the blame of the parents, but make it so the parent and child do not get, the child doesn't get their attachment needs met, right? People are just not there at all or they're not available or they're only available in certain ways.
Um, or they're inconsistent, right? Sometimes I'm very predictable, sometimes I'm not. Um, um, or they're scary, they're abusive, they're neglectful, right? So when that happens, we tend to have insecure attachment. And our [00:16:00] nervous system works basically kind of on this spectrum of two ways where we either will deactivate our attachment needs and like kind of shut it down, which is usually cuz we realize, oh, I can't rely on the people around me.
So I have to become more self-reliant and I have to deactivate my attachment needs. Um, and.
Eva: Guilty over here.
Jessica: Yes. Right, exactly. That was also my strategy, right? Of oh, I don't even have needs, right?
Eva: right. Which is like the avoidant avoidance style of
Jessica: the avoidant, dismissive style or like the withdrawing, right? The deactivating of attachment needs. So then I'm not picking up my own cues of what I need, and then I am not as well picking maybe up on the cues of others, right?
Um, and then the other end is, oh, I learned that I have to hyper activate my attachment needs. I have to get louder, bigger, you know, clinging, right? Become preoccupied. And that usually is becoming really hyper focused on the other and not so much on the cell. What are [00:17:00] they doing? Where are they? Do they love me?
Do they love me enough? Oh, they love me today. Will they love me tomorrow? We had great sex today. Are we gonna have sex tomorrow? You know, like there's all this anxious, preoccupied energy, right? Um, and then disorganized attachment or fearful avoidant is sort of the one that vacillates between the two.
Right. Um, and usually that's because there's been the Right, right. Dinging, there's been the presence of, you know, more overt trauma, complex trauma, um, you know, neglect, abandonment, things like that. And, you know, these can, these ruptures, attachment ruptures can happen in childhood, but they can also happen in adulthood.
Eva: Mm-hmm.
Jessica: style is not faded into one style. Right. Um, we could go from secure to insecure, and the best news is that we can go from an insecure attachment style to having, you know, gained and earned our secure attachment.
Eva: Mm-hmm.
Jessica: So that's the, the, the general [00:18:00] overview.
Eva: Love it.
Jessica: Yeah.
Eva: And I will say, you know, I'm, I, I'm only understanding now, and I'd be curious to get your opinion, Jessica's like, how, like I'm, I feel like I'm only understanding now that this is actually incredibly critical, like in our development as a, as a human being. It's, that's the foundation I think for how we move through the world.
This, you know, whether or not we feel safe in, in a way. Um, and you know, it's similarly to like, you know, our spiritual folks out there. Like when you get a good astrology reading or like a human design thing or something, you, you, you get a piece of information that helps you, um, understand yourself. I feel that's the same thing about attachment styles.
It's like, it gives you an understanding and context for why you behave the way that you do. And also not just context, but, um, Val in a way, validation. Like, it just makes sense and, you know, like we say, you make sense. There's, you're not, there's nothing really wrong with you. You're not [00:19:00] broken, but like, you totally make sense.
Kyley: Mm.
Jessica: Yeah, exactly. Like whenever I, you know, dive into someone in their attachment history, it's like, oh, of course. This is how you're showing up or experiencing relationships as an adult. Like it all makes sense, right? Like we can point to very valid reasons why you feel this way, why you act this way. Yeah.
Or why you have these certain fears.
Kyley: I also wanna thank you because, um, I had never heard before about the, like basically the combo effect,
Jessica: Yeah, you're right.
Kyley: been like, and I, one of the things in to you's point of like trying to like, make yourself make sense, having mostly like, you know, pop psychology references or like Instagram, whatever, um, have been like, it's almost like sometimes I've felt like I was trying to like figure out, like figure out my own pattern of like, okay, well sometimes I do this, this and sometimes I do that.
And it is kind of a, a real, I shows up a lot in friendships in particular where I'm like all one or all the other. Right. Um, and it's been something I've [00:20:00] been really trying to intentionally unhook from like, you know, shift for a while now. Um, and I just really appreciate the context of like, yeah, being both is actually a real thing.
Jessica: It is a real thing. Yeah. And with different people being different things,
Kyley: Mm,
Jessica: you know? Yeah, yeah. And, and friendships is a great place to explore this and like look at how we show up, you know, with friendships, with different friendships.
Eva: Mm-hmm.
Jessica: This isn't just, you know, that's one of the criticisms of attachment theory in general, is it focus too much on the parent and child is the only, and really mother and child is the only attachment figures not that simple.
Right. And then same thing that in adulthood it's just your romantic relationships where it's like, no, we're, we have many attachment figures, you know?
Kyley: It's interesting too about the childhood. Like I watched this with my, so my, my kids are six and four and the other day my husband and I were chatting and my [00:21:00] husband and was, had, was uncharacteristically kind of. Stressed out. And so we were talking about whatever, like whatever work stuff was really like weighing on him and he was just kind of like, just processing and venting.
Um, and in the beginning stages of that, so like just enough venting that like the steam's coming out, you know what I mean? My son comes in and basically just was like being a whiny six year old and was like, mom said I could have ice cream or whatever, and my husband like, got super un again, uncarrier got super annoyed at Desi and I, we, it was this really interesting moment because Desi crumpled and then we all like rallied, right?
We all like saw what was happening and it was telling for me because, you know, and my husband was like, you know, they worked it out perfectly. They worked through it. Um, but it was a telling moment for me because I was thinking this is what happens to so many of us is that our parents are understandably in their own world and they snap, but they don't have the resources to come around and be like, oh, hey, [00:22:00] whoops.
That, like you could see how that would've been like, Like a splinter that got stuck versus something that we like processed together. And it just felt really just illuminating to me how these like micro moments can actually have a really big impact. Um,
Jessica: Absolutely. Yeah. And that's a perfect example of like insecure functioning. It's not that there aren't ruptures, it's not that we don't lose our shit sometimes or make a mistake, you know, but it's that we repair it really quickly,
Kyley: Yeah.
Jessica: you know, that's sort of, and there's a willingness to repair it.
Eva: Yeah. And I, and I do, I think it's such an important piece of the conversation that we talked about how then to create, come back to, you know, that the repair and the secure attachment. But I do, I love bringing things from like the intellectual down to the practical and being like, well, how does this actually show up in our, at real liberty life?
And so generally I'm airing my dirty laundry. And so I will say like [00:23:00] it, I was so, I mean, I'm def definitely disorganized, but I was so avoidant. I have such an avoidant tendency that even when I learned the term secure attachment, that was a revelation to me because I was like, oh, we're supposed to be attached.
We are just supposed to be securely attached. But in my mind I was like, attached is bad. Attached is bad. Like, no, no, no. Like that's a weakness, that's a flaw. Like we need to be like fiercely independent. That even the word, you know, just the idea of like, oh, attachment is okay and we do that in a secure way was just such a welcomed, um, nourishing revelation for me.
Um,
Jessica: yes. And then, and then the spiritual concept of non-attachment gets really confused cuz it's different than. What we're talking about, right? So we go into spiritual communities or like we're, you know, spiritually inclined, and then you learn about this whole non-attachment thing and you're like, right, right, right.
Don't attach, stay autonomous, stay individual.[00:24:00]
Eva: oh, that's so interesting. Yeah, it gets really distorted and I think people can use that
Jessica: Yeah. Yeah.
Eva: so interesting.
Jessica: so my sense is that we can't even truly explore what non-attachment means spiritually until we have healed our like psychological attachment and created a more secure attachment internally.
Eva: Ugh. That is so beautiful. I feel like that's something that Kylie and I talk about often, this idea of, I think one of my teachers had said something about like, you experience limitlessness through limit meaning. Yeah. You have to feel safe in order to actually go and explore the deeper things like non-attachment.
Jessica: Yeah.
Eva: Well, that makes so much sense. Rather than bypassing, which I
Jessica: Exactly right.
Eva: can do unintentionally.
Jessica: Yes. There's a lot of great spiritual principles that help us bypass our stuff.
Eva: So true. Yeah. And I [00:25:00] just, um, I don't know, Kylie, I don't know if you would be open talking about what, where you think you might fall, but I again, about dur airing dirty laundry is like, um, yeah, maybe you can speak to this too, Jessica, this idea of, I used to think people who were anxiously attached, meaning like, again, use the word clingy or like n i a needy, like people who are needy make my skin like crawl a little bit.
I'm like, oh, no, no, no. Like, and this is a lot to do with like, needing to take care of my mother when she was ye when I
Jessica: Mm-hmm.
Eva: and, and, yeah. I think there was a such a lack of compassion actually, because I was like, oh, you guys are just clingy and there's such a negative connotation. I think for, at least for me, clingy until I realized, no, no, no.
Like I see what you're doing. This isn't like, I. You know, again, you make sense. And now that I have a better understanding of what's going on in your internal world and also what's going on in my internal world, cuz I have to take responsibility too for my response to you. It just opens up so much [00:26:00] understanding within all kinds of relationships.
Not just romantic, but family and friendship and even like, you know, work all of it. Yeah.
Jessica: Yes.
Kyley: is why we became friends when we became friends, because my twenties. Your twenties, you were an avoidant asshole. In my twenties, I was like, hi, I'm Miss Pleaser. How can I make you love me? Please validate me.
Eva: Oh, interesting. I mean, and, and I think you even said something in your book, Jessica, about how like, sometimes the opposites will attract.
Jessica: They absolutely
Eva: Can you please speak, speak to that? Because I don't understand, it just boggles my mind because part of me is like, why?
Jessica: Right. Why
Eva: I'm sure there's
Jessica: right, right. So, right. It's classically known as like the distancer and pursuer dance as well as like one person pulls away and distances, then the other one becomes more pursuing, you know, and then that makes the ER go further away. Um, but if,
Eva: my whole dating life in my twenties. Me being the distancer.
Jessica: Exactly right. But then if the pursuer starts to become the distancer, [00:27:00] right, the original ER's like, wait, where'd you go?
And then they start to get anxious and like, you know, pull in and pursue. Um, so that's sort of this classic, you know, dance that shows up. But I think why they're so drawn to each other is because it's like the, what's been exiled in one is so obvious in the other, and vice versa. You know, so the avoidance is exiled that I have needs, but that doesn't mean you don't have needs, right?
So here you're like, oh, there's a person, they get to have all the needs. Perfect. I can still maintain that. I don't have needs, or I can need to be self-reliant cuz this person's ama or because they're very neat, whatever labels we wanna put on them, right? That. And so they're like, they get to act out what I don't wanna act out.
Eva: Hmm.
Jessica: Right? And I get to actually have closeness to it without claiming it as mine. Yeah. And the other, I think the preoccupied [00:28:00] anxious, right? They're not claiming their independence autonomy, right? They're so focused on the other and not on the self. Right? And so they're drawn like, ooh, that person knows how to do what I actually need for my healing.
Right? Um, but when we're stuck in it, we're acting it out instead of sort of, you know, healing through it. So,
Kyley: I've been thinking lately about, I love, I love this idea of like proximity. I've also been thinking a lot lately about this idea that there's things that we want, but we actually want them to be just in the future,
Jessica: Hello?
Kyley: if you, right, if you're like say, you know, if you're an ancient anxious kind of clingy, people, pleaser type, you wanna feel like loved and chosen and taken care of, but more than that, you want to want it, right?
It's like, it's like once it actually. Whatever the thing is, like pick the thing that is your most kind of the loudest hunger that you have. I [00:29:00] feel like once it actually starts to approach most of us kind of panic, even if it's just on a somatic level.
Jessica: Oh, absolutely.
Kyley: the gift of being in a relationship with someone who basically doesn't give you the thing, is that right?
That's actually you. You are hooked in. I mean,
Jessica: Yes.
Kyley: a way in which not getting it is actually the thing you want.
Jessica: Yes. Right. That we're kind of addicted or just so accustomed to the complaint of the absence of what we want
Kyley: Yeah.
Jessica: or the too muchness of the other that we're like want, you know, to get away from Yeah.
Eva: Yeah.
Kyley: Can I ask your personal how you got into this work?
Eva: Yeah, I'm curious too.
Jessica: Yeah. Into this specific, cuz it's sort of like, you know, psychology in general or non-monogamy specifically.
Kyley: Well dealer's choice, you can answer whatever version of that feels most interesting, but perhaps the intersection of like attachment [00:30:00] within polyamory.
Jessica: yeah. Yeah. I mean, I think I, I remember in 10th grade I took, um, like I did well in school, but I didn't. Love school. And I knew how to like, play the rules of school and like take tests and perform well, but like didn't really learn much, you know? And it wasn't until 10th grade I had a psychology elective and it felt like I came online and I was like, what is this?
Now I'm paying attention. Like now I'm actually interested. And so I think that sort of really changed the direction or forged a direction for my interests, you know? And, um, went to college undergrad knowing I am studying psychology that is like, you know what I'm doing? Yeah. So that track was there. Um, but the non-monogamy piece came to me where it was, um, one summer, one week in the summer that I was working with couples and all my couples in that week brought up [00:31:00] non monogamy.
And I was like, what? Right? Like, what is happening? And I knew I had practiced non-monogamy personally. I knew about it. Um, but professionally I was like, I don't know what to do here at all. You know, how do I support these people? And, and okay, I'm gonna start reading books really fast. And at that time, just googling like certificates or trainings in it, there was nothing.
Um, but thankfully I was really rooted at that time in narrative therapy, which is all about let's look at dis discourses and deconstruct them and reconstruct our preferred identities and our preferred experiences. And so I was like, great. I know, let's just, you know, deconstruct monogamy together. Um, so I was able, you know, and then I have mediation, conflict resolution background, so I was able to go, great, um, let's negotiate agreements and, and you know, do all those things.
But yeah, I really feel like it just, Plopped in my lap, but I responded to it cuz I quickly [00:32:00] saw, oh, there's like not much out there on this. Even I was living in Boulder, Colorado, you know, like very progressive place, right? Polyamory was happening and you know, and yet still, um, I put up this sign at the library and you know, like, um, when you go into a store it's like, come in, we're open.
And so it was one of those with a question mark, come in, we're open. Like, and then I was like, are you, are you interested? And you know, like, are you exploring polyamory? And, and um, yeah, people just started showing up and showing up and showing up and they all have the same complaints. My therapist doesn't know anything about this or they pathologize me about this or,
Kyley: mm.
Jessica: so yeah, I love filling in.
Eva: to double back again, but you're saying also in your personal life you had experienced polyamory as well. Okay. So
Jessica: Yeah. Yeah. Well, and I, I've experienced non monogamy and I didn't really have words for it, and I didn't, um, ha It wasn't like, oh, this [00:33:00] is my full on identity, you know? I mean, most things that I like practice or am I rarely take on as an identity anyway, you know? Um, but it wasn't until then, and I was like, as I started to read, I was like, oh, I'm actually very polyamorous.
And that sort of shifted my non-monogamy into more polyamory. So there was like a confluence effect there. That was
Kyley: Can you speak to the difference? I mean, I think I have a, I have a general sense, but, but you know, with the spectrum of non-monogamy to
Jessica: yeah, non-monogamy is the umbrella term basically for all the different ways people can, you know, practice being either emotionally or sexually, not exclusive, right? More than one sexual or romantic partner. And everyone's consenting. That's the key. It's not cheating.
Kyley: Right.
Jessica: Right. So, you know, just experiences of group kissing in high school or you know, just in college and, you know, those kind of things.
Or Ooh, great, your roommate wants to make out [00:34:00] with me and my boyfriend. Great. You know, we have those play experiences. Or even, um, being in an emotional triad had no language for that, but like realized, oh, the three of us are like a throuple, even though we're not always, we're not sexual. But, you know, there just, that was a part of my experience.
Um, yeah. Yeah. And yet there was a point where I was like, oh, someone, you know, we're in a serious relationship and this monogamy was kind of assumed to some degree, right. Um, yeah. So,
Kyley: Can I ask, in the journey of deconstructing monogamy, what are some of the biggest like topics or lessons or kind of ideas that show up to crumble?
Jessica: Yeah, that's a great question. I should, we should define the polyamory just so I, I realize Oh, done. Right. No, no, no. I, I stopped too. Right. Um, right. And polyamory would be, I'm really pursuing multiple in love [00:35:00] relationships, right? Yeah. Versus maybe, um, casual or it's more sexual play based or, yeah. It's really in love partnerships.
Yeah.
Eva: Oh, so that, so that's how you would define the difference? Oh, that's
Jessica: Of polyamory. Yeah. I think multiple love Yeah. That I'm actually pursuing. Uh, in many ways it's, I'm pursuing more than one attachment based relationship.
Eva: oh. And then obvious, obviously, in which everyone is consenting. And that could mean, that could mean that one person, because does it mean that the, like let's just say with, if it's with three people, that they're all in a relationship together, or that could mean one person is ethical, no monogamy, and the other person chooses not to.
Jessica: Yeah, that can happen. I mean, the, the combination of all of this, you know, is quite flexible and really different for every, you know, multiple people. Right. That we can have one style with one partner and they might practice non-monogamy very differently. And then I might have a different style with someone else.
Eva: [00:36:00] Mm-hmm. Yeah.
Jessica: Yeah. Yeah. So, right.
Eva: yeah, I would love for you to answer this Kylie question.
Jessica: Can you repeat it, Kylie?
Kyley: Yeah, I was just wondering for folks who show up, like, okay, let's deconstruct monogamy, um, which like really deconstructing any kind of institutionalized mo of thought. I'm very jazzed for. Um, and I'm curious kind of what are the, what are the most common themes or topics or things that come up that have to be, or that asked to be dis deconstructed?
Jessica: Yeah, that's a great question. Um, that loving someone else means there's less love for me, right? That's one. Um, being attracted to someone else is dangerous. Um, you know, in monogamy, most of us have not just this like cognitive, I mean conceptual idea, but the like wired in emotional reactivity that my partner with someone else is the worst thing that could happen, right?
Like it's cheating, right? So that is the biggest betrayal in a relationship many people [00:37:00] have. That's what it is. So then you're like, whoa, wait a minute. My partner with someone else is beautiful
Eva: Mm-hmm.
Jessica: it's okay, right? Like, it's not a problem or a threat or the worst betrayal that I can go through. So that's often something.
Um, just the expectations of the couple. Like how invisible and omnipresent the couple and, you know, couple privileged is at all these different levels. Like, you know, within the people in our family, with our friends, you know, that, um, within society, legally, you know, culturally, all of those things have to be deconstructed. Yeah. That's just to name a few.
Eva: I am loving this conversation. So Kylie and I are, you know, best friends and I'm, and it's also interesting to me that I don't think we've ever had a conversation about our, about monogamy and like the deconstruction of monogamy. And I think that's because, and I think that's interesting because the truth is, is I [00:38:00] feel like, like non-monogamy has always just made sense to me.
It, it's, I'm a very practical person, so I, I feel like it's a practical thing, like of course as a human being, it, it, it, I would understand if my partner was attracted to somebody else or had or had feelings for someone, is that just to me seems so logical.
Jessica: Right.
Eva: and at the same time, it's also interesting to see how, you know, this isn't self blame, but the, the indoctrination that I have about monogamy, about how that is still, there's like a puritanical, you know, we all know this.
The puritanical sense of
Jessica: exactly,
Eva: the way,
Jessica: right. It's what's natural.
Eva: what's moral.
Jessica: Right. Exactly. All of those things are still ingrained enough. Yeah.
Eva: Ver very much so.
Jessica: I think women too have some extra deconstruction that we get to do cuz Monogamy's really been imposed on our sexuality and so many women think that they don't [00:39:00] have a high sexuality or high sex drive, or a much sexual interest, or would want more than one person.
And is that their truth or is that the structure of monogamy sort of capping that connection? You know, and so a lot of women, um, they have quite like a sexual liberation as they explore non-monogamy. Cause they're like, oh wait. Right. I want more. I want difference. And that's okay. You know, so just this idea that men are sexual beings and women aren't as sexual.
And a lot of women are like, wait a minute, fuck that. You know, I'm highly sexual too. Right. And many men too are not actually high sexual, so, you know. Yeah, yeah,
Eva: And of course, even as you're talking about this, I'm like, Ugh, of course. I could see why having secure attachment is so important, all of this, because I can see how it could get really, really messy and
Jessica: yeah, yeah.
Eva: you know, for not thoughtful or well-equipped. It can be. Painful,[00:40:00]
Jessica: Yeah.
Eva: because of some of this, um, some of our beliefs about monogamy, but also because yeah, of our attachment stuff about feeling.
It's all about, like, what I think we all want at the end of the day is to feel safe and secure,
Jessica: Yeah,
Kyley: Yeah.
Eva: and non-monogamy can threaten that in all sorts of
Jessica: Yeah. Or what we need to be safe and secure changes than when we're in monogamous relationships.
Eva: Can you speak on that a little bit more?
Jessica: yeah, like often we can just rely on the structure of monogamy to feel safe and secure. There's nobody, or there just is nobody else. So like, I just, it's easier to maybe trust or feel safety and security, you know?
But when there are other people in the picture, it's like we need more, usually more attunement, more reassurance, more that sense of like, I really wanna know why I'm special, why you're with me, why I'm valuable in your life. Yeah,
Eva: Mm-hmm.
Jessica: yeah, yeah.
Kyley: also, oh, sorry. Go ahead.
Jessica: and just that there is more, like more people. So there's more.
[00:41:00] Potential complications, you know? So to feel like we can navigate this together is important. And someone's like, we're looking out for each other through this, even though it's not gonna be perfect.
Kyley: it also seems to me that, uh, No monogamy. Asks for, asks. A lot of self invites. A lot of self-awareness. Right. So I, I have actually, I met my husband when I was 18. We've been together for 20 years now. Um, and one of my, one of my best friends, like all through college and all, all through our twenties, was in varying, you know, different polymer relationships.
So it would be like visiting, I'd be like visiting her and she'd be like, okay, I gotta go have like a phone date with, you know, the couple to, you know, all of us to, I was so grateful for, um, I don't know. I was very grateful for like being the fly on the wall. Um, and uh, and also one of, I can, I know that one of my biggest like monogamy [00:42:00] deconstruction things is like, that seems like a lot of work,
Jessica: Yeah, totally.
Kyley: right?
Because you have to be really self-aware. It strikes me that for it to like, Really thrive. The other people, you benefit from being in relationship with other people that are self-aware, um, because you're gonna get triggered just like any other relationship. And then you have to understand the trigger, right?
You have to understand the trigger.
Eva: It's also just more cooks in the kitchen, you know, you have more feelings and dynamics to work with.
Jessica: absolutely right. And the truth is monogamy takes a lot of work too. But we can get, we can go into default mode a lot easier
Kyley: Yeah.
Jessica: and like get complacent. And take each other for granted. Um, whereas y you are not gonna last very long in polyamory, non monogamy if you're doing that. Yeah. So it keeps us on our toes.
It keeps us having to be present. Yeah. But the, the, it seems like a lot of work. Yeah. When I first told my sister, I was like, okay, I'm [00:43:00] like gonna be like polyamorous and polyamorous. She was like, I can't imagine one more person need something from me.
Eva: Which is totally valid too. Right? Totally valid.
Jessica: Valid. I was like, yes. You do not need one more person making any requests of you.
Kyley: yeah, twenties, Kylie was like, I dunno, this seems interesting, and maybe like 50 year old Kylie when her kids are growing up, but like late thirties, two small kids. Kylie is like, I'm good, I'm good.
Eva: Yeah, it's like I'm, I'm tired, you know, like I'm, I get it. Um, however, I will say you are speaking to something that I think is like, um, just so interesting to me cuz I was, question that I often have is I, my, I am, I guess you could say guilty of, or maybe this is just normal, but being, when I'm in a monogamous relationship, that whole complacency thing does happen and I've chalked it up to being like, that's just a natural part of being [00:44:00] really comfortable with somebody.
And maybe it's true, but the truth is I don't like it. In fact, I hate it. I hate it a lot. And I've often wondered how does that not, how, how does that not happen? And I'm sure there's various ways we can get to that, but I do, I'm just very, um, I caught by this idea that actually, that's one thing that probably wouldn't happen is, or ne like easily in a polyamorous relationship.
Jessica: Yeah, I mean, this makes me think of the first question of what are the lessons? Like I'm really exploring this lesson of like, can I actually live with a partner and still have romance and like the sex I want,
Eva: Mm-hmm.
Jessica: like the polarity, you know, the spark,
Eva: You mean as opposed to maybe leav leaving separately.
Jessica: mm-hmm.
Eva: Oh my god, Jessica, you're speaking my language. Like,
Jessica: yeah. Opposed,
Kyley: this is the whole thing for you, so.
Jessica: Opposed to living separately.
Yeah. Um, because, and, and [00:45:00] what matters, right? Because there's such beauty in living with somebody in having that kind of domestic intimacy, but, Personally, I find that that often then depolarizes the romance and the sexuality and that part of the relationship becomes a lot harder. You know? Whereas living separately, it's like you don't have to try as hard cuz it's like, yeah, if I'm seeing you two or three times a week, you know, it's the longing, the desire is just really accessible and the way we even, you know, the time together has, it's more valuable cuz I don't see you all the time.
I, I can't automate you. Whereas when we live with someone, unfortunately we can automate them and we can take them for granted, right? So, so that's been something that I have really been, you know, wondering what is, what is my answer? Can you know, is it just finding the right person and then we can live together and still have hot facts in life?
Or is it better to have, you know, I have my domestic partner and we're not in a romantic relationship, but we're raising our son and it's like, this [00:46:00] is great. I want a domestic partner, but you know, Weighing out can both actually coexist. And I think that it does for some people. But like, I wanna do a study on why,
Kyley: Um,
Jessica: like what makes people who've had kids and lived together still have the sex that they wanna be having.
Eva: Oh my God, I, if you come up, if you come up with some answers, I would read, I would read that, read that book. Because, um, yeah, so Kylie knows I've always, it's, it's kind of an internal dilemma of being like, I actually think I thrive best when I live alone. And I, but I, but I, but I, and also, but you know, having a partner who also lives alone, and I feel like that should be perfectly fine.
But the truth is what I, I, you know, I, I, I do, I hate to admit this, I guess I hate to admit the fact that there's a part of me that's like, no. If there's something wrong with that, I just feel like I'm cons, all of this feels like a constant need of, of de um, [00:47:00] struc deconstructing all of my beliefs. Cuz I think there is, again, this idea of like my parents or whoever being like, well that's impractical or no, if you're, if you're moving on with your life and you're like, you know, where you're supposed to be at some certain milestone, like this is what it should look like.
And intellectually I can be like, no, that's stupid. Like, fuck that. But, know, nervous system wise, I'm still like, uh, uh, something feels wrong and it's kind of exhausting to have to continue to do all the deconstructing if I'm being totally honest.
Jessica: Yeah.
Eva: like that's the same way about monogamy, like monogamy and, and polyamory makes so much sense to me.
But I'm like, that's a lot of.
Jessica: It's a lot. Yeah.
Eva: Yeah. And I'm curious if you have any thoughts for people who want to enter into polyamory because on a value level, they believe that they, you know, that's, they agree with it, but the stories are maybe what get in the way. And Kylie?
Kyley: Eva, before we answer that question, I just wanna interject because, uh, [00:48:00] you were speaking to the study you wanna do Jessica, about like monogamous relationships that are having great sex and I just offline volunteered to be a study,
Jessica: Yay.
Kyley: be a participant in this study. And I think for me the answer has to do with what you're saying, Eva, about like the fucking work of deconstruction. So this is funny that earlier I was like, oh no, no, monogamy seems like so much work. And also like I have been on a fucking journey for the past, really loudly for the past Mm, yeah. For the past four years around sexual trauma.
And, and, and it has obviously had a huge impact on my relation, you know, on my, on my sex life for a little while to the volume, all the way down direction and now to the volume all the way up direction. And, um, and also just like genuinely really proud of us that I'm like, look at us celebrating our 20 year anniversary, like having built this really beautiful way of, um, connecting with each other.
But I think it has to do, I, I think has the answer's like the same all over the place, right? [00:49:00] It's the willingness to be like, oh, did something just, did something uncomfortable happen? Did you, to the very beginning of the topic, like notice a somatic withdrawal, like don't ignore it. Like what is it, what is it offering you?
How, what is it a window into and how can you, how can you let yourself lovingly tend to that? Um, I mean, I think
Jessica: you mean like not letting resentment accumulate?
Kyley: not letting resentments accumulate, but also for me it was a lot. Mm. I would say two big things for me. One was like, Just listening to my body, which was saying like, you have some shit to process, right?
Like there was some, some stuff stored in these muscles that need to be kind of processed and not ignoring that. But then I also think like, uh, making space for resentments actually to be valid.
Jessica: Yeah,
Kyley: the which, because I think sometimes the desire to not let resentments accumulate can turn into actually ignoring them.
You know, like, right. [00:50:00] I don't wanna be resentful, so I like bury the resentment. And so I think some, like counterintuitively, like actually allowing resentments to be valid has been the thing that, that, that made, that has made space. Um, and then just like, yeah, the more, yeah, the more we have made space for like saying the fucking thing, the more, uh, yeah, the more it gets better.
Eva: Wait, wait, wait. I have to, sorry, I have to, I have to ask. So when you say, the more it gets better, what gets better, so the more you're open and having the dialogue. Right. But, so, but what do you, what, what do you think the connection is? Like, why, why is that?
Kyley: Well, I think, uh, because there's not, because Willow with then there's not resentment and when there's not, right. Like the tricky thing in a relationship, social. Me, you have two kids. I work a lot in the evening. Right? It's just very easy for like, to not
Jessica: no time.
Kyley: no time and it's really easy to be like, I'm tired, I don't have time.
And, and then also it turns into like obligation and or resentment, right? [00:51:00] But, um, but I have observed like, you know, if one of us is, is too tired to be able to just say like, I'm not, like, I'm not interested. And that just being o like totally Okay. Um, Part of it being totally okay. Also it means it, it has been born because of a total willingness to be like, oh, my feelings are hurt.
Or like, right. I feel a certain kind of way, even though what you are experiencing is totally valid. Right. It goes back to the thing you were saying in the beginning of like both needs being valid instead of one, just one set being valid. Right. So like the per, cuz I think often it's like either it's either whoever does want sex or doesn't want sex is more valid, but it's like how do they both get to be valid has been the portal to more sex and also better sex.
Jessica: I like it. Yeah. Like what's occurring to me is you can actually say no. I think when people can't say no, like the consequences of saying no are worse than like pushing through to say yes to sex. You don't want, like, that's [00:52:00] gonna be a damager, right?
Kyley: But I also think people can say no and have a partner who's like, okay, cool. But there's so much guilt about the saying no. So even though like you can say no, and your partner's like, okay, cool, love
Jessica: but can, right?
Kyley: and you, but you don't actually give yourself the relief of the like of the no because you're feeling guilty.
So then the next day is like a debt to repay, which is not, debt is not sexy
Jessica: Yeah.
Kyley: opposed to like, that was Thursday. Now it's Friday. Like a totally new clean day. What's my energy and interest now? And that's internal work, right? That's like, and that we can project onto our partner, but that's internal work.
Yeah. Okay. Anyway, that concludes my, but also, and I also, I will say like, Actually doing the somatic work is no, like I just is like, this is the most overshare podcast episodes, but I constantly am like, oh, I've been doing pelvic floor PT for a year, and I'm constantly like, [00:53:00] this is what sex gets to feel like.
Like I thought it was great before. Holy shit. Like every, if you have a pelvic floor, go do pelvic floor PT and then send me the thank you message, right? Like,
Jessica: Amazing. Yes.
Eva: Whew. Okay. Uh, did you, I feel like, sorry, you're our guest and we keep like cutting you off, Jessica. So was there something that she wanted to
Jessica: great. I wanted to go back to what you were saying about is it okay to not live with partners? Right. So that sort of ideal that, and it's so funny, we romanticize like it's so romantic to move in together and then I'm like, that usually really like changes the romance, right?
Yeah. So is it okay to wanna live separately? And I'm like, there's, I think historically, like there were, and there are cultures that, like partners didn't live together, they didn't sleep in the same place, you know, and it worked, right? Or like houses where they didn't sleep in the same [00:54:00] room. So
Eva: Mm-hmm.
Jessica: I just wanna give you permission to,
Eva: Yeah.
Jessica: to construct your relationships in the way that works.
Eva: Yeah, because the truth is obviously there's like on a, on a, on a, in reality, there's absolutely nothing wrong with the idea of two people sleeping in a separate bed. It's just the story that we put on it. How, like that's if you're not sleeping, like people think there's something wrong. Like bad if two people are, a, couple's not sleep, aren't sleeping in the same bed, but I'm like, I get way better sleep when I'm not next to a person who's snoring or something.
Do you know what I mean? Yeah. And it says nothing about our, about our love. But, um, going back to attachment theory, which is why I think this is so interesting, is I've had to analyze, and I, to be honest, I'm not sure I completely am clear on this yet, is do I wanna live alone from a securely attached place, or do I wanna live alone from an avoidant place?
Jessica: Yes. That's a great question.
Eva: You know, like this is where I think the attachment stuff is also so helpful because then [00:55:00] I can make sure that the decisions that I'm making are coming from a healthy place rather than an unhealthy place.
Jessica: right. And the same behavior from the outside. Right? It can look the same, but the intention or which style it's coming from can be totally different.
Eva: Well, do you have any thoughts on that? Of how One discerns?
Jessica: How one discerned, yeah. I would tune into like, oh, am I living alone? Cuz this is what feels like I know myself, I know the time of like how much space I need to feel like I am.
Healthy, full, loving in relationship, you know, taking care of myself in the way that I need. And so it feels like it's your a present moment, adult decision.
Eva: Mm. Mm-hmm.
Jessica: Whereas if it's the strategy, it's just, you'll feel probably even on different levels or hear the storylines of the avoidant strategy
Eva: Mm
Jessica: like things you just don't wanna deal with or things that I don't wanna have to look at or I don't want them to see this or, right.[00:56:00]
Eva: mm.
Jessica: It'll be more of this like pushing away of things versus an embracing of yourself. That
Eva: Yeah. That, that makes, I love this. Yeah. The pushing away versus the embracing of the self. That makes so much sense. Yeah,
Kyley: Can I add a thought that I have too? Just knowing you, Eva, um, I think permission to get it quote unquote wrong.
Jessica: Ooh, good one.
Eva: Yes.
Kyley: know, like maybe you decide to like, live apart because it feels authentic, and then six months in you're like, oh, this is me being an avoided weirdo. I actually totally wanna live it. Right?
And like, cool. Or vice versa. You move in and you're like, oh, actually wait, no, I need my Lucy and Ricky bed. So like, we gotta find something, figure out something. That's my, that's what my family calls two
Jessica: I, I knew
Kyley: yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
Eva: Yeah. I mean, you're absolutely, I think the first one sounds easier, the second one sounds harder. This idea of moving in together and then being like, oh, nope, I wanna,
Jessica: we need to move apart. Right. Cause it Yeah. It's a harder disentangling to do.
Eva: mm-hmm.
Kyley: [00:57:00] But also potentially if it's front-loaded with like, this is an experiment and I'm giving myself permission from the outset that I get to check in and see if this is what I continue to want that,
Jessica: Yeah.
Kyley: that can build in a little bit of, Space to ask those questions or
Eva: And I, I will say that was kind of the intention of my last partner who I moved in with. And we were always like, if this isn't working, we'll just live separately. And again, I'm like, I can see that there was a part of me that was like, oh, but if we move in together and then we like move out and we're not living together, I was, I hate to admit it, but like concerned with like the optics of that, of like, oh, something must be wrong.
Like if you, you know, you're essentially backtracking, I'm putting, using quotations here. And that gets into, I think my, my question earlier about deconstructing our indoctrination in our beliefs. I feel like that must come up a lot in polyamory, um, and. [00:58:00] I'm curious if you have just any thoughts on that and, you know, the fact that it is a lot of wo it's probably, it's, hmm.
It's a lot of work in a different way. And how do, how do you, um, advise or support people to contend with that?
Jessica: Yeah. I mean, right. It's like pulling back the curtain or like becoming aware of the water that we're swimming in. Right? And with non monogamy, it's, it's deconstructing relationship. It's deconstructing monogamy, it's deconstructing family sex partnership, right? Like all these, all those things get deconstructed.
So it's just a lot. It is a lot to look at. So my next, uh, book coming out in August, I have a chapter actually on this of like, how do you, like, what supports do you need in the paradigm shift? You know, and sometimes it's just as simple as doing exercises where it's like, write out all of your beliefs in this paradigm, right?
And they might not even be your full [00:59:00] beliefs, but like the beliefs that you know, impact you. Right. Even if you're like, I don't really believe that, but yet I'm concerned about the optics, like you said. Right. Um, and then sort of really defining the new paradigm, you know, that you're wanting to function from and what you actually believe.
What are your desires and wants and values. Yeah. So that's sort of how I usually support people. Yeah. And then, you know, there's often a lot of, there can be a lot of trauma that people have to look at in this process. You know, parents that cheated on each other, parents that left and went to other families that, like in non-monogamy, all of that gets reactivated.
You know, or certain kinds of sexual trauma that just didn't get as triggered in monogamy with one person. But they get activated in multiple partnerships,
Eva: Mm.
Jessica: know, or seeing, knowing our partners with others. So usually there's a lot of [01:00:00] good trauma healing work that needs to happen too.
Eva: Mm-hmm. So when we originally reached out to you, you know, to invite you on the show and we had to explain like, you know, this is a spiritual podcast. I think what I remember, this was a while ago already, but I think what I remember was you responding with like, You know, you do believe that this work is spiritual in some way, and I feel like that maybe you're starting to touch on that a little bit.
I'm wondering if you can speak to the connection that you think there is between all of this and being a spiritual being in the world.
Jessica: Yeah, totally. I think in a few different ways, um, to stay with the deconstruction thread, you know, when we start to deconstruct our identities. And our experiences, we start to go, well, who am I? What am I? Right? And you know, hopefully it's not just a realistic, uh, conclusion, right? Um, you start to, oh, there's some awareness or consciousness that's beyond these identities, [01:01:00] you know, that's beyond these constructs and the social experiences.
So there's this, I think that deconstructing process can really bring us to an experience of like capital S self. That's pretty awesome, right? And to be like connecting to that, living from that place so that totally any paradigm that you're deconstructing, I think could lead that could be an entry point and some more spiritual, um, experiences of the self.
Yeah. And then for many of us, our spiritual path is through relationship, you know, and, and for some people that's through parenting or through their work, right? Through devotion in other ways. Um, but through the, the growth that happens, the awakening that happens only through a certain kind of intimacy that, you know, romantic sexual relationships kind of brings to our table, so to speak.[01:02:00]
So I think people take this on as, as really a path of love, right? And then looking at like, well, what is love? Right? And what does it mean to embrace love? Yeah. And especially non possessive love. It's really hard, you know, so to experience, um, transcendent love or, or, uh, transpersonal love, right? And we can have that in monogamy too.
It's not that we don't, right. Um, but I think people that are pursuing multiple relationships, At the same time are really in a relationship bootcamp. Right. And as you were alluding to before, like the skills that you need to maintain, you know, it's like you're, you're an athlete here, right? Or this is grad school, this is relationship grad school for sure.
And of course people in monogamy can have that too. It's just usually is they're more intentional about it, you know, and it's already in their value system. Um, but monogamy itself usually doesn't push you into that. You as an [01:03:00] individual have to want to do that, whereas polyamory will start to push you into that.
Kyley: Yeah. It seems to me, again, having, you know, been in the same relationship for so long, like there's, there's, there's basically ways in which my husband and I have like kept. Not particularly functional ways of relating that we've been like just limping along with for a decade, right. Until all of a sudden, like one of us will like, um, one of us will like grow, go through like some sort of inner transformation and look up, like I remember I had this aha that I was like, oh, I'm doing this really shitty thing too that I've been doing for like eight years and I'm sorry.
I'm gonna stop now. Right? But, um, uh, or sometimes it will be like something comes to a break point or whatever, but, but the point is I think that there's a way that you can, you can continue to have, like, perhaps it can be an, it can be an enabling relationship if you're not interested in like looking to the triggers and personal [01:04:00] growth in a way that it seems like there's the, the concentration of pressure on in polyamory just show the fractures. It's, it, it appears to me that the fractures show up quicker.
Jessica: Yeah, I think so. Yeah.
Kyley: um, yeah, that's really messed on. It's really beautiful if
Jessica: Right, right. Yeah. Exactly. Yeah.
Eva: really love what you said. I, I wrote down yes. The spiritual path is through relationships. Um, and, you know, you, you, you mentioned not necessarily romantic, you know, including romantic ones, but also maybe all relationships. Yes. Others. Others, you know, and, I just want to emphasize that because much of, I think the spiritual path can seem like it's a solo thing.
Like it's, it's an internal process and we are responsible for ourselves and it's a lot of like self-help and personal development and, you know, as a [01:05:00] meditation teacher, I remember when I started teaching, my practice was so solitary and I like, loved that. But then I like meditated in sango with community and I was like, oh, this is a whole different kind of experience.
And yeah, it's true that what the fuck is the point of our spiritual practice if it's not about how we can be in the world in relation to others, right? Like it's not a spiritual practice if it's, if it's not helping you relate to other people and strengthen people, your relationships with people.
Jessica: Yeah,
Eva: I don't know.
I'm just really touched by that.
Jessica: yeah, yeah. I think like my studies of yoga years ago helped me to understand that there's like, oh, it's not just a sauna. The physical postures of doing the physical yoga. Like there's Raja Yoga, which is the path of like studying the scripture, the texts, you know, there's devotional yoga, which is like being in service to the community or the guru, right?
There was all these waves that one could be practicing [01:06:00] yoga. Um, and that really helped me, like, all right, of course, multiple pounds,
Eva: Mm-hmm. Right, right.
Jessica: know?
Eva: And and what, and even as you were saying, like some people find spirituality through relationships, there are multiple paths. And once, for some people, that path is like, you know, I think I, I don't, I don't really follow any, but I have this image of like a relationship coach or like a sex coach where like their whole, um, art is about how they can find liberation through. Romantic relationships and I'm like, oh wow. That's like a, that's something not probably anything that I would like, you know, that doesn't seem like my zone of expertise, but I'm like, oh, that's interesting. That's another
Jessica: Yeah, yeah. And there's people that are exploring that kink is a spiritual path,
Kyley: Mm.
Jessica: you know? And sort of the levels of like surrender and transpersonal experiences that happen through kink play [01:07:00] is incredible.
Eva: Oh my God, I love
Jessica: know. Yeah.
Eva: Um, um, how are you feeling, Kylie?
Kyley: Oh, I'm just, this is just delightful. I'm just thinking about how we should talk about sex more often on the podcast.
Jessica: Oh, fun.
Kyley: I don't know how we got this far in without talking about it more.
Eva: Yes.
Kyley: Um,
Jessica: awesome.
Kyley: yeah. Yeah. I mean, I, I think also one of the like, big takeaways that, or like reminders that I feel like I hear you speaking to is just, um, like permission to do it your fucking way,
Jessica: Yeah,
Kyley: right?
Whether it's like, you know, hurricane Lucy beds or whether it's like the spiritual practice of kink, like whatever, like. What lights you up and didn't do more of that,
Jessica: yeah. And like, guess what? There's other people that wanna do that with you, you know? Cause I think we can have this efficiency or this [01:08:00] fear of like, oh, I wanna do that, but I'll never find anyone who wants to do
Kyley: Mm.
Eva: Yeah.
Jessica: like, guess what? You know there are more than one person that will wanna do this with you.
Trust me.
Eva: Yeah. I mean, I feel that way about the living alone thing. I'm
Jessica: Yeah.
Eva: I'm like, oh, this is so like, Niche. Like who the fuck is gonna like, I don't know, like I, I have a limiting, it's the limiting belief of
Jessica: Mm-hmm.
Eva: this is, it's not even that weird by the way. I can recognize that it's not that weird, but there's that like fearful thought that's like, this is so weird.
No one's ever gonna wanna like do this. And, um,
Jessica: Yeah.
Eva: I'm hearing you.
Jessica: I'm like, oh, are you serious? There's so many people that would be so thrilled to find someone else who wants to do this, cuz they wanna do it that way too. Yeah.
Eva: Yeah.
Kyley: Also, sometimes I think it's not, correct me if I'm wrong, I don't mean to project, but sometimes I think it's not that we think it's weird, that's the cover for the fact that it's actually kind of precious to us.
Jessica: Hmm.
Eva: Mm-hmm.[01:09:00]
Jessica: Yeah.
Eva: Can you, okay. So I think for me it's very much this idea that, it's weird because I remember voicing this to my friends when I was like, I. Not that, you know, not that even long ago, five years ago. And they were like, oh my God, that sounds like impossible, impractical. That would never happen. Like literally multiple people told me to my face of like,
Jessica: Interesting.
Eva: that they were like, that's just, they said it's not sustainable.
And so, so I really got the message of like, Nope, that's just like, can't happen. But, but I hear you speaking to something else
Kyley: I feel angry for you. I just so you know,
Jessica: I know. I'm like,
Kyley: physical anger right now.
Eva: I mean, you know how that Yeah. Well, thank you. I appreciate that. Yes. I should be like, I should be angry about this, but you know how some, someone, sometimes just like one moment someone can like say something and it'll like really stick with you,
Jessica: yeah, it really sticks. It sounds like it's stuck. Yeah. And yet the irony, like the sustainability of monogamy is, or marriage is like, not the, the stats aren't that great, so,
Kyley: I'm pretty sure my husband would like me a lot more if he didn't have to live with his [01:10:00] slob of a wife 80% of the time. He's on a work trip right now and I am like obsessively committed to like not having the house look like 8,000 times worse than when he left. And I'm like, you can do a cold. You can do it.
Eva: Yeah. Thank you. Practical, practical feedback. I really appreciate that. Um, but Kylie, you were talking about the preciousness of something.
Jessica: Mm-hmm.
Kyley: Oh yeah. Just like, okay. So imagine thought, experiment, this idea of like being able to be an intimate relationship. With somebody and also have the freedom of your own space. Like the, like the freedom of your own space is, I think, really precious to you because it's something that you've spoken to in many ways over the years.
And so if it's precious, then I think we're more afraid of what people like
Jessica: Mm.
Kyley: afraid of it not working out. Versus if it wasn't that important to you, you would've been like, oh, guess what? It is weird, whatever. And you would, it wouldn't, it wouldn't have mattered, right? It wouldn't have been [01:11:00] sticky
Eva: Yeah.
Kyley: because it, you could take or leave it.
Jessica: Yeah. Yeah. I mean, at the very least, if you don't live with someone, you don't have to groom as much. Just really think about that.
Eva: Yeah. Yeah,
Kyley: I mean, I don't know. Y'all are making some assumptions about grooming.
Jessica: No, it's, of course, some people don't care. They live together. It doesn't matter. Yeah.
Kyley: Yeah, sometimes. So again, this is, but sometimes I'll be having sex and I'll be like, Wow. I don't think, I don't remember last time I shaved my legs like, you're really doing a great job, husband. Like, thanks for like not caring. So,
Eva: yeah,
Jessica: yeah. If you grew, right?
Eva: yeah. If you agree.
Jessica: Yeah.
Eva: Um, Jessica, is there anything that we didn't ask you that we should have asked or that you would like to speak? Speak on?
Jessica: Oh, that's, Initially, I don't think so. I love where this has gone.
Kyley: what's the name of your book that's coming out in August?
Jessica: Poly wise.
Kyley: Holly Wise?[01:12:00]
Jessica: Yeah.
Eva: Okay. I mean, I will, uh, if I may, I'm not even sure what the question is that I'm asking you, so I'll just say something and see what it, what, where it goes. But, um, to whatever we, however, com to whatever degree you feel comfortable speaking about, I think I'd be curious if about where you are right now with your own relationships in your life, practicing monogamy or polyamory.
Jessica: Yeah. I'm sort of in a poly family situation, like a hybrid situation, which is great. Yeah. Me and my partner, we've been in each other's lives for 20 years. And we, we were married for 10. We got divorced, but we lived together. We still co-parent. Um, but we're not like exes, like people wanna impose that.
It's so interesting. They wanna be like, oh, [01:13:00] your exes. Were like, we're freaking like living life together daily. Like we're not, you know, and we just co-authored the next book Poly Wise Together, which felt like an amazing creative project to do. So we're human partners, like we're attachment partners, you know, and, um, we had one of my partners that was living with us for a while, um, he left a few months ago, and now him and I each have partners that are outside of the house.
Eva: Okay.
Jessica: Um, and they have kids as well and sort of have their family situation. And so it's a current sweet spot. I'm sure it's gonna change.
Eva: Mm-hmm.
Jessica: ebb and flow right next year. Someone will ask me and it'll be different. Um, but this is a really sweet moment where like we have devoted time with the other partners, um, that's just really beautiful and committed.
And, and for me that's capacity right now.
Eva: Yeah.
Jessica: know, like my heart could love more people. Um, but I don't have a [01:14:00] timer availability to actually show up in relationship cause I don't do casual very well. Cause it's like, you know, if, if, if we're gonna be in each other's lives, I just can't help it. We're gonna go deep and we're gonna be involved,
Eva: Mm-hmm. Yeah.
Jessica: Yeah. So, so this is, that's the current setup, kind of this poly family-ish. Yeah.
Eva: I mean that I think goes back to, relates back to this idea of deconstructing, um, I don't wanna impose this label on you if it doesn't feel accurate, because I can see this could be great, or it could be annoying. But, you know, I feel like anybody who's embracing relation polyamory in this way is a, a trailblazer of sorts
Jessica: Hmm.
Eva: you're going against, you know, the status quo.
And so how do you f do you see yourself that way? And, you know, is it difficult? You know, going back to this idea of like, obviously I'm someone who has a lot of stories about how I think, you know, things should be, and I'm, how do you contend with that?
Jessica: Yeah, it's interesting. It's been a theme in my life in general, not just [01:15:00] this, right? Like I'm an Aries Sun sign, so it's like I'm the pioneer first, and there's a lot of times in my life that I've been what I call the canary in the coal mine, like.
Eva: Mm-hmm.
Jessica: In graduate school and college and certain family relationships, like workshops, like just different communities where it's like, oh, I'm the one who's noticing even the issues and the one who's trying to speak up and like the impact that that has.
You know? Or I'm like in the first wave of a training, so they're just like figuring it all out. And I'm like, this is great and it really sucks. Like, you know, like, like, you know, so those kind of things. I've found myself in that position a lot, you know, um, of sort of pioneering something or that's how people see me.
That's what they reflect back to me. And so it's cool, you know, it's cool to be on the edge. And then also the drawback is like, sometimes I don't feel in the [01:16:00] center, you know? Um, yeah, depending on what it is, right? So it's like, oh, at the edge of all these identities or experiences, um, I can bridge, which is pretty cool.
Yeah. But yeah, anyone who's doing anything outside of the dominant dis discourses or dominant identities, yeah. In many ways we are sort of trailblazing new ways of relating or being.
Eva: So then I guess my question's like, does anyone ever give you shit? Like basically that's what I wanna know, because is there such thing as being a trailblazer without getting pushback? Like, do people ever get mad at you for promoting this thing that they're like, oh, this is against, this is against G God, you know, like,
Jessica: right? And I've had some people, like I've been asked, right? Yeah. I'm still so lucky. No, like majority, no. Like, I did get one or two pieces of like emails when Poly Secure came out that were like, you know, you're killing him outta me or something. I was like, okay. [01:17:00] Um, but no, the majority of what I get is appreciation and.
People really just grateful that like, there's more awareness and you know, another voice at the table, so to speak. I haven't been getting a lot of pushback, you know? And so I feel grateful. Yeah,
Eva: That's amazing.
Jessica: I know. And that reminds me, cuz when I started to just publicly say I was working with non-monogamous couples, so just professionally have my own practice, and I put like a button, you know, like to a page on my website that was like non-monogamy.
And, uh, a colleague and dear friend was just, they were shocked. They were like, I can't believe you're doing that. You know, like, like as if it was this huge risk that I was taking and I was gonna get such pushback. And yet I was like, no, there's such a need for it. It, you know. Yeah.
Eva: Oh my God, I love this.
Jessica: Yeah.
Eva: And not even pushback from, again, I think I'm asking, I'm so [01:18:00] like flabbergasted by this because I come from an Asian culture where I feel like, know, there's, there's a lot of rules and also
Jessica: Yeah.
Eva: family. Family is all up in your business. Like, like
Jessica: yeah, yeah.
Eva: the norm.
And so even from close people, like no one's been threatened or had any stronger
Jessica: I've, oh, yeah. Yeah. So I've had, okay, thank you. Yeah, of course. I've had hardships, like when, um, Dave and I first opened up, like openly as polyamorous, I think I, I lost one or two or three friends. Absolutely. Um, like people that backed away or someone I think, you know, never admitted that that coincidence.
Our friendship, you know, decade long friendship ended within a few months of me and Dave opening up, you know?
Eva: mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
Jessica: so yeah, there have been losses like that, but no one was like, you're a horrible human for doing this. Right. You know, it wasn't like that kind of hate bigotry. Obvious, but, um, yeah, and I'm privileged in that I do work for myself at this point, you [01:19:00] know?
Um, so that I'm not having to deal with many people do lose their jobs, um, or can't be out at work. Or can't be out to their family. Um, my family had so much going on that they're just like, doesn't bother them. I'm sure if I went back though and like saw some of my high school friends, they might think I'm the weirdest person and want nothing to do with me.
Eva: Mm-hmm.
Jessica: You know? And we noticed too, there were certain couples that sort of leaned away from us. Um, cuz I think they were afraid like, oh, now are they gonna wanna date us? Or, or, or are they gonna like, oh, you know, now my husband's gonna wanna do that too because Jeff and Dave were doing that. You know? So yeah, there was some of that for sure.
But publicly, no, I haven't had meeting. Yeah,
Eva: I mean, to me, I feel like that's not. So different from, I think, the spiritual path or I think venturing down any path that is diversion from where you were that feels meaningful to you. Is that
Jessica: [01:20:00] yeah,
Eva: Kylie and I was talking about you have to find your people.
Jessica: yeah, exactly.
Eva: yeah. And if other people, and sometimes you change, there's loss and
Jessica: Yeah. Right. Great.
Kyley: Yeah.
Eva: I think that's just, just part of it.
And, um, I don't think it has to be so, uh, dire. But I do think it's like, well, part of the work, the spiritual work is then contending with loss, like knowing how to hold your grief
Jessica: absolutely right. Yeah. Knowing how to do grief work, knowing how to let go and stays connected to self. Right. Because just that, right. I mean, I grew up sort of Catholic and Jewish, and then at 20 basically was like, Ooh, this whole yoga and Buddhism thing. Like it was so amazing to me. You know? And just that experience, right, of most people thinking it was really cool, but then some people just being insulted by it, or you know, confused by it.
Yeah.
Eva: [01:21:00] Yeah.
Jessica: Yeah.
Kyley: I also think, uh, this is just top of mind cuz of a recent family conversation I had. Those also think sometimes people really have the capacity to surprise us. Like I had heard through the grapevine that, um, I come from a really big family and I heard through the grapevine that some very important close family members were like basically worried about what I was doing professionally
Eva: Wait, was this recent that you heard this?
Kyley: Yeah, yeah, yeah. So I had a, I had a group program a couple months ago called Enter Your Villain Era. And so I think some of my family members had no concept that, like, that's a whole pop culture thing. And then to make matters worse, we priced it at 6 66. So people were like,
Eva: Do they think you're doing Satanic? Like,
Kyley: they were like, they
Jessica: You were doing satanic worship,
Eva: yeah, yeah,
Kyley: and it was in my family, like, is like ca culturally Catholic, right?
Like it wasn't, it wasn't a morality thing. I think so much as a like, um, like an anxious concern of like, like what is happening to Kylie
Eva: Is she in a cult?
Kyley: is she a no call? [01:22:00] Is she like, and so I went out to dinner and I had heard this and it was actually a really cool thing because first of all, when I heard it, I laughed.
And so that was just a really great tell of like, you know, Then it would, it just felt so I didn't have a, I didn't feel reactive about it at all. I just laughed and was like, they'll tell me if they want to tell me. And then I had dinner with my aunt and she basically said like, so what's up with all the witchy stuff?
Jessica: Oh,
Kyley: I had a whole conversation with her about it and it was a really cool moment of like, like she does like, like she does not see the world in witchy ways and all and continues to be someone who's like, but you know, your kids might get made fun of about this kind of thing. And also like, she fucking loves me and therefore she has space for my weird witchy shit.
As long once she realized that I wasn't like, you know, I don't know, not me anymore. Right Then, Then it was, it was a [01:23:00] really great experience for me to realize, like, watch her hold the complexity of like, yeah, I love you. I've always loved you. You're allowed to be a weirdo. I'm all like, it was a moment of like, everyone in my family were like, oh, we got dinner, and everyone was doing their own weird, quirky thing that I was like, oh yeah, we're all insane people together.
That's like the commitment we made. Um,
Jessica: yeah. Yeah. I feel like the pandemic gave us a lot of lessons in that too. You know, what was our stance on social distancing, masks, vaccines, you know, all through these different waves. Right.
Kyley: Yeah,
Jessica: That for some people it really polarized them and broke them apart as families. And some people were like, we can see this differently and, and I'm not letting it get in between us.
Kyley: yeah,
Jessica: Yeah. So it's like anything that we care about, you know, or any way that we are different from the norm.
Kyley: yeah. And can, and can we love people in all their complexity.
Jessica: Yeah, exactly.
Kyley: Yeah.
Eva: [01:24:00] Yeah, I, I mean, and I don't mean this in a defensive sort of way. I mean, this actually is like, I think it feels loving, but the truth is, is if somebody isn't on board with who you're evolving into, I think that says a lot more about them than it does about you. And I don't mean that as in like that's their problem, but it's more like, I think there's a helpful lens in which like, it's not personal.
Like they're allowed to
Jessica: yeah,
Eva: what they value. And that's, that's cool. And also, I'm allowed to value what I value. And it doesn't mean that either of us is bad. It doesn't mean either of us is wrong.
Jessica: yeah, exactly. And sort of this idea that relationships are forever. I mean, it would be nice if they were rich, but they're often not. And you know, especially even this friendships or family of origin, it's like, yeah, we're gonna ebb and flow and come and go and sometimes cross over and sometimes be really divergent.
Kyley: yeah. And even if they're, Even if they are forever. Right. Even if I do stay married to my husband till the day one of [01:25:00] us dies, like it's not a static relationship. Right? Like it's, you were speaking to like this sweet spot for your family right now. And I resonated with that so deeply cuz I feel that way about my fam.
You know, my family in this moment is like, this is a, this is like a golden age, right? Like this moment that we're in because it will shift, it will evolve. I don't know why or what the reason will be, but like this is just a snapshot and I think monogamy, like anything that presents as static can create a story for us of like, of, of stasis and perfection and, and, and, and that masks the fact that it's all fucking fluid and changing.
Jessica: Yeah. As it should be. Yeah.
Kyley: Yeah. Yeah.
Jessica: Yeah. Yay.
Kyley: Thank you so much. This
Jessica: you.
Kyley: a delight.
Jessica: Yeah.
Eva: Yeah. This has been really great. We should do joy.
Kyley: Yeah. Yeah.
Jessica: Yeah,
Eva: Um, well,
Jessica: you wanna, don't you start though.
Eva: yeah. As no, as our guest, we usually have our guests start
Jessica: Okay. Okay. [01:26:00] One thing that's bringing me joy actually, is my meditation. Um, I've been doing these Jo Dispensa meditations and, um, when you really resonate with, so this morning, the one I did was actually resonating with love and joy, and sometimes they're resonating with different things.
So it's literally like the vibration, like abiding and the vibration of joy
Kyley: um,
Jessica: is incredible. Yeah.
Eva: Yeah.
Jessica: Right. And so that's a lot of what those meditations are, like, abiding, you know, in the vibration of abundance or of freedom or health healing, you know, whatever we're trying to kind of experience more of in our life. Um, so yeah, that's been, it's been really wonderful. Bringing me a lot of joy.
Eva: Yeah. I love that. Um, yes, I've heard lots about Jodi Benzo's meditations, and I've never tried them, but people are big fans.
Jessica: I [01:27:00] am a fan. I'm currently a fan.
Eva: Yeah.
Jessica: Yeah.
Eva: Um, Kylie, would you like to go next?
Kyley: No, I need time. You
Eva: Oh, I need time too. We ha we, we have these, we have these podcasts every week and it's like, I forget to think, um,
Kyley: Well, so we had two this week, so I'm like, oh, should I just
Jessica: Oh, more joy.
Kyley: Yeah. I need find an extra joy.
Jessica: yeah,
Eva: me think.
Jessica: Um, I can add more in there if that's helpful. Buy you some time.
Eva: I mean, I'm always open to more joy. And also, you know, we can always edit
Jessica: Yeah. My son had his first like school play yesterday and I just like the minute he was up there, it was just like, I just started crying. He's eight years old
Eva: oh my
Jessica: and like he knew his lines and it was, we practice his lines with him and I just like, It's just so much joy to see him, you know, coming more into his own and his, his, his self and just like how well he did.
And, and it wasn't always easy. He resisted a bunch, you know, but like, [01:28:00] yeah. So just, it was very joyful to see him sort of, he's in a, a Waldorf outdoor nature school, so like thriving.
Kyley: ahead.
Jessica: Yeah. Yeah. Ooh, nice. Yeah. Yeah. Um, really seems like he's thriving in, in that kind of environment, so that brings me a lot of happiness.
Eva: ugh. I love that. I love that because, Yeah. There's also something just so precious about having the kids mute on stage and then
Jessica: It's so
Eva: it's like a, there's an independence there too, like if they've got lines.
Jessica: I know. And they're like, they're like telling each other, they're cues and they're forgetting. I mean, it's just so cute. Like the self-organization of the children, you know? Yeah. Yeah.
Eva: Okay. Um, I thought of mine, Kylie, if you want me. Okay. Um, I think I am finally, I don't wanna speak too soon and maybe this will ebb and flow, but I think I'm finally hitting my, like crish, um, like flowy [01:29:00] clothing aesthetic phase. That's what
Jessica: Ooh,
Eva: Like, I think I've always wanted, do you know what I'm talking about?
It's like
Jessica: yes.
Eva: flowy, just flow silk. Like I'm wearing this silk thing right now. I, I, it's like a two piece pajama scent, but I actually wear it out as just like a regular thing and yeah, just like, You know, I imagine like grandmothers in linen pants, you know, just like flowing in the wind. And I, I ha I just love lowy flowiness.
And in my twenties, I don't know that, that maybe that didn't, that wasn't of interest to me. But now as I'm entering my forties, I'm like, this feels just right. I actually ended up messaging Kylie, you'll get a kick out, kick outta this Beki, who is a past podcast guest of bars, and she's always got like the flowy aesthetic on Instagram.
So I was like, where do you get your clothes? And she
Jessica: Wait, which website can I go to?
Eva: And she sent me a bunch and I was like, done. So
Jessica: Ah, that's fun Yu.
Kyley: for this. Yes, yes, yes, yes. Here for all the [01:30:00] witchy vibes. okay. Mine is, um, It's kind of related to what you shared, and I was punting on it because it feels subtle and therefore hard to fully describe. But there's this, with your kids, they all of a sudden will just like shift and somehow seem old, like overnight, you know, like all of a sudden you'll see their hands and it's like, that is not a little boy's ha.
Like it has a hand. You know what I mean? And I feel like recently both my kids went through this kind of subtle shift into something older. And it is just so cool to like watch them become more of themselves. So like, my daughter is just a real, like, she is such a comedian and she makes these amazing facial expressions.
And so the other day we were like driving in the car and she just was like handing it up. And I don't think she even knows how funny her facial expressions are, but she's like totally handing it up and making all these facial expressions. And we were all like, [01:31:00] legitimately laughing, you know, not the like little kid like, oh, I'm indulging you laugh.
But it was like, no, the whole family was in hysterics at her, like four year old performance. Um, and like similarly, my son has been like reading, like today he got home from school and he's like very, he's very hyperactive. He's like always on the go, but he also loves story. And he got home school and he like immediately climbed into the couch and then like flipped open a book.
And then he is just like reading, like
Jessica: Oh my goodness.
Kyley: like graphic
Jessica: So yeah.
Kyley: And I, was just like so delighted to watch him like, um, It felt like a kind of like self possession of like, like, like knowing what interests him and like, like taking care of himself in this very particular kind of way. I, I can't, I, I can't really describe it, but I just feel like somehow over the past couple of months they both shifted into more of them or an older version of them.
Jessica: Mm,
Kyley: and they're cool. They're cool people and I really like [01:32:00] getting to find out and like be able to be witness who they become. So if that's bringing me a lot of joy.
Eva: I love that too. I mean, that is interesting because you are learning about them. You're learning about who they are, and so, yeah.
Kyley: I have to remind myself this actually, like, cuz there's a parent, you, you can't help but like, worry for various things about your kid. And I had this like thought drop in the other day that was like, you don't know who these people are. Don't hold on to these worries of like, oh, you were once this and therefore I have to worry about this thing for you.
I could feel the energy of that being me, like gluing their feet into something. And there was this, like all of a sudden it was like, you don't know who they are. Like sit back and watch, find, let them show you who they are. Like don't hold on to, um, that's a work in progress. But it felt like a really good little,
Jessica: Yeah.
Kyley: yeah.
Eva: So beautiful. All right.
Jessica: I love you too.
Eva: Jessica,
Jessica: Yeah, this is great.[01:33:00]
Eva: I, um, again, sorry, I don't wanna freak you out, but again, I said I'm such a big fan of this book. I, not only do I have the hard copy that I'm holding up here, I also have the audio book. So I also heard you
Jessica: Oh yeah.
Eva: I, I'm like familiar with your voice and it's, um, it's always just so nice when the author actually reads the book.
I think it makes such a difference. So anyway, highly recommend Polys Secure. Can you share with our audience where else they can find you, how they can work with you, what you have going on?
Jessica: Yeah, just my website, jessica fern.com. People subscribe. I'll let them know when new things are opening up. Actually, this is a great place to say it. So my kind of regular practice is full, but I'm opening up like two or three time slots for Legacy unburdening, which is totally more like a psychological, spiritual, uh, practice from Internal Family Systems.
I don't know if you're familiar with it. Yeah. Okay. Yeah, yeah, yeah. So I, I really want, you know, like I love that work. It's so meaningful and [01:34:00] incredible to do that work with people, um, and work through the lineage. And so I'm sort of shifting into that a bit.
Eva: Wait, it's called Legacy Burning.
Jessica: Legacy, unburdening.
Eva: oh, unburdening. Unburdening. Okay.
Jessica: Yeah. So when we have like legacy or inheritance or cultural burdens that we're carrying in ourself,
Eva: Mm-hmm.
Jessica: right?
It's not just my stuff. This is stuff I inherited. Right? Um, and that can show up in so many ways, like chronic health issues, we just can't get rid of that. You're like, oh yeah, grandfather had that too, or, you know, or certain beliefs that we've inherited, right? Um, so different things. So yeah,
Eva: that. Maybe you should consider calling it legacy burning.
Jessica: legacy burning is great.
Burn that shit. Yeah.
Kyley: oh, that
Eva: cool. Yeah. Is that like a group thing or is that also
Jessica: It'll be one-on-one. Yeah. Yeah. One-on-one. So, so yeah, that's something that I'm excited to be like totally [01:35:00] new that I'll be offering. Yeah, and I think this summer, if I have the space, I wanna offer a few online classes around things like jealousy and co-dependency and all that good stuff. It's kind of in the next book, so it's sort of Yeah,
Eva: And tell us a little bit more about this new book that you have coming out and when it when it will be
Jessica: It'll be coming out, um, the end of August. It's called Poly Wise and I co-authored it with David and I, and so this should have been my first book, right. And I talk about that in the introduction, is that poly wise, I thought was gonna be my first book cuz I came up with a body of work that was like, why is polyamory so hard?
Here's my list of five or six things that are like the root issues, not the surface issues. Right? And if we can work with these issues, we'll find some traction forward. Right. And so attachment was one thing on the list.
Kyley: Mm
Jessica: my publisher was like, can you make a whole book out of attachment? And I was like, I will try and, right.
And so this book is the rest of those things. [01:36:00] So it's how do we make paradigm shifts? Um, how do we troubleshoot when there's a paradigm shift? How making a paradigm shift, you know, really can expose all the cracks in our relationship that we weren't looking at. Right. That are difficult to be dealing with.
Um, working through codependency, um, awakening of the Self is the last chapter. So you all probably will love that one. Right. Yeah. So there's some good stuff in there.
Eva: Yay.
Jessica: Yeah. Yeah. Thank you.