In this episode, Eva shares a recent mushroom journey that unearthed big emotions around family, responsibility, and the unresolved. Kyley and Eva dive into the tension between wanting answers and finding peace in uncertainty, exploring themes of guilt, freedom, and the paradox of holding both joy and suffering. Together, they ask: Can we be truly happy even when the world is not?
In this episode, Eva shares a recent mushroom journey that unearthed big emotions around family, responsibility, and the unresolved. Kyley and Eva dive into the tension between wanting answers and finding peace in uncertainty, exploring themes of guilt, freedom, and the paradox of holding both joy and suffering. Together, they ask: Can we be truly happy even when the world is not?
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Eva: [00:00:00] Hey everyone, it's Eva.
Kyley: And it's Kyley.
Eva: Welcome back to Hello Universe, a continuation, a continuation of last week's episode. Last week, we thought we were going to talk about finding peace in the unresolved. We ended up having this really gorgeous conversation about I don't even know how love burns everything that we're not, how love burns the ego up, and highly recommend that listen, but I wanted to come back and, and finish the conversation about finding peace in the unresolved.
Eva: So, and [00:01:00] also a lot of this is going to be me sharing a bit of my, um, mushroom journey and then wanting, of course, sage advice and guidance of my dear friend Kyley Caldwell.
Kyley: And I think in some ways, during the episode, we actually did answer this question, right? Of like, how, um, how do you let go and create comfort in the unresolved? And I think so much of what we talked about is like, is the how, um, and so we were answering the question with answering the question without knowing it, but I am really excited to hear more about your journey.
Kyley: You're making a face like something's already dropping in.
Eva: No, I'm no, I mean, no, that faces you're reading around the faces. Oh, I'm annoyed.
Kyley: Oh, great. Even better. More fun. Say more,
Eva: because I feel like you're probably right. Like we already, I already know the answer, but I'm [00:02:00] resisting it because I'm like, no, I want it to be a different way. So,
Kyley: something. Important. Maybe there's something important and unresolved in the, in the wanting it to be a different way. Like, and when I say unresolved this time, I'm meaning maybe there's something you need that, uh, is unmet.
Eva: yes, and that's why I want to bring it to you, my friend, because I have a feeling you'll be able to point some shit out to me that might be helpful. Okay, for contExt, let's just give you a little bit of background information. For my experience, I was doing mushrooms. I consider You know, all mushroom trips at this point ceremonial and it felt fun, but also very ceremonial and I there was a point where I was just everything was fine was having a good time.
Eva: You know, there's like, I think there's different energies that [00:03:00] move in and out, you know, these experiences and then all of a sudden I got really fucking nauseous. And, uh, which happens sometimes, but this was nausea that ended up lasting throughout the entire trip. Usually you get nauseous and it passes.
Eva: This was, this didn't just, this didn't even get, go away in, even when I was sober, even I sobered up, I was, I was sobered up and I was still nauseous like the whole time. And so I was like, okay, this is very telling. My body's trying to tell me something, what, you know, I felt into it and without getting lost in too much of the detail, basically. All of a sudden, all this shit about my family and my parents came up, and it was, and again, for more context, for some listeners may know, some listeners may not, but, but a lot of my story, I guess you could say, is this complicated situation I have with my parents in which my mother is mentally ill, she's been sick my entire life, my dad has been her caretaker, I don't even know if I've said this [00:04:00] on the podcast, actually.
Eva: My dad was her caretaker. I publicly talked about how my dad, and then now at 70, how he's, he's taking care of her for a lot of his life. They has, they've decided to split and get, you know, not a divorce, but a separation in their seventies. And that's just been like a crazy fucking ride because my mom, it's up for debate whether or not she can really take care of herself. Um, I mean, she's also, you Like, you take out the physical sickness and the mental sickness, she's still 70 years old, she's living by herself, and she's never lived by herself, ever, before, in this way. And, um, and it's just been this complicated thing of, okay, how, you know, it's brought up a lot of my codependent stuff, and also my Asian, like, cultural stuff of like, where am I responsible? Where do I pick it up? Blah, blah, blah. But basically what happened is on my trip, just like all this like anger and frustration and rage came up. And I just [00:05:00] saw my whole parents lives, like how it all played out and how tragic it all was and how fucked up it all was. And like, I saw it was so painful, Kyley.
Eva: It was actually like so sad. I really relived all these traumatizing moments that I hadn't really thought about in a really long time. And it was like, It was, it was, I don't know, it was, I haven't talked about it yet, so I'm still kind of gathering my thoughts, but I'm just really happy for the, for, I was with my, with Tom and he just like held space so well. And there was like crying, but I guess it was just like the heaviness of these emotions just felt really big, you know? And as just a side. Point like that's the thing about this medicine like all plant medicine is like because I was feeling really nervous before I always feel nervous before doing any kind of psychedelics because I think it's a healthy respect of the plant, but I also felt like, oh, [00:06:00] I know why I'm nervous because it causes us to see what lives inside of us. And. I guess maybe I had some feeling that there was going to be something I didn't want to see. Because I think sometimes people go into these experiences and it's just like all happy and great and loving and we're all one with the universe. But recently that has not been my experience. I haven't been feeling that.
Eva: I've been feeling like really nervous every fucking time and just, and even like second guessing and being like, I don't know if I want to do this shit anymore because this stuff is really hard. It's hard.
Kyley: Uh, yeah, yeah,
Eva: Yeah.
Eva: Anyway, where am I going with this? I guess I just was like in such deep. Frustration and sadness over the tragedy of their lives without even going into all the drama and the trauma and all of that shit. And I was looking, there was no resolution to the end of this. It [00:07:00] was like, Hey, mushrooms. Okay. I thought you were going to like, bring me back to a place of love where by resolution, I mean perspective, you know, it doesn't mean the problem is fixed, but I find a perspective that brings peace to my heart. where I'm, you know, in acceptance of the unresolved where, and it was, and I kept being like, I don't know what to, that's what it was. I was like, I don't know what to do. I don't know what to do. Do I like leave my beautiful life in Taiwan or in Brazil and go back, take care of my mom in Taiwan? Uh, do I not go do that?
Eva: Because I'm not trying to like, I could see there's, there's a part of me that also was just like kind of picking up exactly where my dad left off and reliving in an unconscious way. Like, Uh, unhealthy behaviors, you know, and I don't wanna do that either. And I just felt like I had had this image of like, my baggage.
Eva: I was like, baggage. There's a, there's a bag here right here that my dad is, has left. He's just like, I, I don't, I'm 75 and I can't even take [00:08:00] care of myself. How can I take care of myself and your mom? Like, I can't do it. So here's this bag and I'm just gonna leave it here. That's it. I'm just leaving it here.
Eva: And then I saw, and I was like, okay, I don't know what I'm supposed to do with it. Do I pick it up? Do I leave it there? I was like, picking it up doesn't seem right, but leaving it there also doesn't seem right. And I was just, but, and then there was, it was just like such an interesting experience, but then I like started throwing a tantrum and it was really good. It was actually like very adorable, but I was like marching around the house being like, I'm stuck, stuck, stuck, stuck, stuck, stuck, like don't know what to do.
Eva: Stuck, stuck, stuck, stuck, stuck. It was actually like really funny.
Eva: But,
Kyley: You just.
Eva: uh, thoughts so far on my story? You seem very quiet.
Kyley: Receiving everything. And,
Kyley: uh,
Kyley: mostly my feeling is I'm like really glad for you.
Eva: Of course. Yeah,
Kyley: Of course. Um,
Eva: the painful part is
Kyley: I remember once when I was going through [00:09:00] the shit and I said, I, I like wrote some email about being angry to Liz and I told a friend of mine and my friend was like, I was waiting for when the big mad was going to show up. I remember that. I would remember that line, like, you know, like I was just waiting.
Kyley: I knew it was there. And. I feel a little bit like that for you in a way that, like, I mean, you have had done a tremendous amount of release and healing around your parents well before I even got to know you. And also you have such deep compassion for them and yourself and such a, just a tremendous ability to be in this place of like, um, I mean, I've said this to you off the air, but I consistently am, I'm moved by how Not from a place of gaslighting, you're like, okay, like, yeah, this situation is fucked up.
Kyley: And also I am okay. And it is [00:10:00] okay in the sense that it is right. And, and I, and I consistently observe how that is not self rejection. It could be someone could be doing it that way. That's not what you're doing and. Especially after like your dad needed to leave your mom and then also the way in which not only are you like having to look at this bag of like, do I take it up or not?
Kyley: But like, your mom's a pain in the ass about the bag, right? Like, there are plenty of times in which you like line everything up so that she's taken care of and then she finds a way to like blow it all up, right? And, and so, um,
Eva: Uh, and I, uh, like I want, like this has been such a big life lesson for me is like you can lead a horse to water, but you can't force it to drink. Like prior to coming to Brazil, we had lined up all of this shit for her to have all the care that she needed. And like within a week or two of me leaving, she blew all of it up.
Eva: Very dramatically, very [00:11:00] dramatically, like blew it the fuck up. And I was like, all right, this is just out of my hands
Kyley: yes.
Eva: and it's painful because then what if she dies? You know? It's painful.
Kyley: Right, the stakes are, the stakes are not small. And I, so when I say I feel glad for you, I feel glad because to our reoccurring theme of paradox,
Kyley: I am okay and this is okay in that it is, um, I have consistently observed as true and also how can this tremendous just like grief and pain not also be true. And I am, I am glad for you to have a moment with it,
Kyley: even I'm sure it's not especially fun.
Eva: Oof! Wow. I'm really glad you said that. Um, yeah, this is like the gift of having a friend who just sees you and knows you so [00:12:00] well. Because I think you're right. The reason it probably came up was because there are a lot of big feelings around it that I don't always let myself feel. Or, like, I don't let myself throw a tantrum.
Eva: You know? like, like, I'm annoyed. And upset, but I don't ever let myself just be like, you know what I mean?
Kyley: Yeah.
Eva: sometimes, like just going into woods and yelling because you're in an impossible fucking situation. And I, and when I say impossible, I just, it really brought up because what it brought up this theme of like, when I was telling Tom the story of my family, it was just so clear.
Eva: Like, Oh, like, My parents are so wise and they have all this experience, but also they're really fucked up, like, they're really fucked up and, um, and it was like, I guess the theme that came through this conversation that we had that was so beautiful was like, yeah, the world's fucked [00:13:00] up, dude, like, the world is not a pretty place in a lot of ways, and there's a lot of suffering, and this is just one microscopic piece, not as in small, as in I'm making my problem small, but it's a piece of
Eva: all of those things, suffering in the world.
Eva: It's like, you have, essentially, with my mother, it's this feeling of like, she's mentally ill. And no matter what I do, I can't change that. I can't. And she's, and she's, and she's an addict and she's an alcoholic. So like, I can't, I cannot change that. And I just saw, Oh, actually, yeah. So then were you going to say something and then I'm going to,
Kyley: what I was going to say something because I think you said, oh, it's an impossible situation. And I actually want to, I want to underscore that. I actually think it is. There are [00:14:00] moments where there's an easy answer, or there's a clear truth, or we settle down deep enough and we can see, oh, this is the way to, you know, resolution or balance, or
Kyley: there, that to me, feels, feels right. Seems like a huge part of the pain and, and frustration and anguish is that it actually, there is a, there is an impossibility here, right? Because these people that you love are not 75 years old with all of their various maladies, like going to have some huge seismic shifts tomorrow and make this different or easier and, and it is impossible.
Kyley: And, and it would be an unkindness to yourself to pretend otherwise. So no wonder you're constantly like, I don't know what to do because. [00:15:00] There is no, there actually is no solution. I
Eva: yeah. And I, yes, there is no solution. I have so much to say about that because one, I just want to share also that like, The silver lining was just like, so apparent to me that moment of like, Oh, I, and I've said this before, but like, this is an issue I've lived with my entire life. Like, even as a kid, I didn't understand.
Eva: I didn't understand the dysfunction in my home and I wanted to understand and it really set me on this course. I am the way that I am because of all of that, because my whole Searching for meaning and answers that has led me to the cosmic mystery and unknown is because stems from this like little kid Eva being like, I don't understand why my mom is sick and why there's violence in my house and why they're fighting all the fucking time.
Eva: It just doesn't make any sense. Like, why, why, why, why, why? It's just, it's created like who I am. So that's like [00:16:00] interesting to see. But also, yeah. Yeah, and then I just, uh, and then I just saw this image of like, so much heartfelt compassion for, I don't know why this one wasn't one came up, but like people, other kinds of sickness, like cancer is like, you know, like when someone has cancer and there's no fucking solution to that. Like it just is how it is and you can't change that. And then, and that's really scary. And I, and then the. The wisdom that came in when I was like, I'm trying to figure this out. I want this. I want a solution. I, I so badly just want my parents to live like the rest of their lives having, being happy. It's really just that.
Eva: I just want them to be happy. And I was like, um, what came through? Oh yeah. It was this feeling of like, I think, and I don't know how that's going to happen. And the wisdom that came through was like, I think, It's about not [00:17:00] needing to know, not needing to know. And I just like couldn't accept that. So in, so what's interesting is that's the contradiction from our last conversation last week was like, you know, this whole big piece about living in the, I don't know, and how liberating that is, but for some reason, this piece here, I just like, can't let it go.
Eva: It's like, I have to fucking know. Okay. So wait, I want to talk. I want to share that.
Kyley: have thoughts. I have immediate thoughts. Can I, can I just,
Eva: Yes, please. Please give me your seer. You know, 411
Kyley: because you just said a lie.
Eva: I love it when you call me on my bullshit.
Kyley: Cause you said, I just want them to live in big happiness. And it's the just that's a lie because you want them to be happy and content and safe, and you fucking want to be happy. And part of the thing that's driving you insane is [00:18:00] that it seems to you that the only solution is that you fucking sacrifice yourself and live in Taiwan and do the job that your dad didn't want to do and that the only like stop gap, you know, like patch in the barrier is that you throw yourself down as sacrifice and you don't want to do that and you aren't willing to do that to tremendous credit and so you're stuck because you don't understand how they get happy or safe or content without your sacrifice.
Kyley: You don't want to sacrifice. You think you might have to sacrifice. And so you're looping, looping, looping there. And so the lie is that you just want them to be happy.
Eva: Yes. Well, I want to point out yes to all of those things, but I think like a small shift in that is I think what you said, like, I think I'm unwilling to take up that role. I just don't think I could. I just, I [00:19:00] can't, I just cannot see myself like sacrificing myself. So I've already made the decision probably in some ways that I can't.
Eva: And so it's about living with the guilt of that or the, which is a conversation you and I've had on podcast before. Do you remember where you were like, I was like, we had this conversation about how like, you're kind of, you have a way, I think that at the time you're feeling maybe like questioning your way of being like, you see shit and you can just be really direct with people.
Eva: And sometimes like people may not like it. Do you remember that conversation? Or was it that conversation? Anyway, you were, you were, we came to this conclusion about you where you're like, Oh, my problem. Isn't that I have a problem saying no, like, you'll say no. But then it's the aftermath of like, but then I feel really bad about it afterwards so that's my that's the predicament I mean, it's like I've internally already decided no, it's already happened. And then it's about, can I make that decision with peace, rather than feeling [00:20:00] like I've somehow abandoned or where I'm somehow responsible or I'm a bad person.
Kyley: And so you're asking life to tell you, promise me that they will be safe. Promise me that I won't be punished for my decision to choose myself. Promise me that this won't bite me in the ass. And life is saying, you just can't know.
Eva: Yeah, but not only that, like, isn't it so it's it's I'm doing that thing that we talked about in the last episode, too, where I think I'm asking them, I'm looking for something outside of myself to give me something, like what am I, I'm asking my parents to not have their bullshit so that I can be happy, so that I can feel safe, so that I can feel like a good person.
Kyley: Hmm.
Eva: Do you know what I'm trying to say? Like, there's, and I don't mean this in a, in a, I think it's, I don't mean this in a self deprecating way. I think I have every right to want these things, but I can also see there's a, [00:21:00] There's a, I don't know if I'd call it selfishness in there, but there's a, a little bit of a selfish sort of Manipulative thing of being like I need you guys to be happy so that I can be happy
Eva: Like figure your shit out so that I can be happy and there's something kind of ungenerous about being like What if I just let them have their fucking experience and it didn't need to depend on them to do something for me That honestly they couldn't do for me.
Eva: Anyway
Kyley: Can I tweak your language a little bit, which is I think you're asking them to have their shit together so that you can be safe in your happiness. It's like a
Eva: Yes.
Kyley: codependency because you are already happy. You've already chosen it. You live it. You are happy. So you don't need them to have their shit.
Kyley: This is the thing of like things blow up and you're like, no, I am okay. Right. And I watch this in you all the time, things blow up with them. And you're like, yeah, I am. Oh, you know, you feel the feelings that rise up. And also there is this. [00:22:00] There's this okayness. Your happiness isn't dependent on their actions.
Kyley: It's like a, can I, there's a trust and safety thing. Like basically like, will the rug get pulled up from underneath me? Can I be safe and trust this happiness?
Eva: Yeah. Or also, yes, also, but I'm going to be punished going back to our last episode too, because we had this whole conversation of how we feel like if we're bad, we deserve to be punished. Yeah. Or I don't, I don't deserve this goodness and also, therefore, I deserve to be punished.
Kyley: The way you'll be punished is like, see, you are off gallivanting by having a happy life and
Eva: my mom will f Ball living by herself when she's drunk and on a crazy medication and split her fucking head open I have this image all the time bleeding all over the floor by her side This is so grim and dark, but like she'll just be in her apartment Bleeding for days and no one will have known that she died a week ago and and and then I'll get a phone call They'll find her rotting body. Whoa, [00:23:00] that is bleak and dark, but also like that is Cause that's like, really possible.
Kyley: That's the thing I wanna offer too, is like, sometimes we come up with these like really melodramatic stories that are like, okay, but that's not
Eva: not gonna happen.
Kyley: that actually could happen. Like that. That actually could happen. So you're, you're, you're, and I know you know this, but I, I, I think it's like this is part of the impossibility of the situation, right?
Kyley: Like, is that your fears? Aren't insane,
Eva: Mm hmm. Mm hmm. Yes. And so, so therefore, and because they're not insane, it's easier for me to be like, okay, like it's proof that something like bad is going to happen and whatever. Okay. Wait.
Eva: So then let
Kyley: you can't just tell yourself like, no, no, no. Like you can't bring in logic. Like that doesn't make sense. That's not going to happen much. It's like, yeah, but actually, right. So fear and logic
Eva: Okay. And then I want to tell you about the [00:24:00] next phase of this trip, because again, I always feel like there's these little phases and, and like, it was, and I want to share this with you specifically, Kyley, just as a, I just was like so amused by this. This is more just like a story I would want to tell a friend, which is, I guess this whole podcast, but so I was in this phase of feeling stuck Transcribed And Tom was like, and I was just like, fuck. And he was just like, all right, say that louder. And I was like, fuck, and he's like, louder. And I was like, so we got to the point where I was just screaming, like, fuck, and like, letting out this release. And then he goes, okay, now scream out five. And I was like, why? He was like, apparently five is the word that we can scream the loudest in all of, all of English vocabulary. And, it just, the reason that tickled me so much was because I could just tell how not serious Tom was taking this [00:25:00] whole thing. He was like, he was like, fuck, cool, cool, cool, and he's like, now try five. I just like started cracking the fuck up at the ridiculousness of this, and we were both on mushrooms. Screaming five out loud as loud as possible and it was just like such good medicine because it shifted it from this like very heavy thing to this just it felt all of a sudden like goofy and and ridiculous and playful
Kyley: I love that.
Eva: and it was so hilarious that we started just like cracking up which also happens to me often in Mushrooms like just side splitting humor and he played this song for me um Monty Python, which I'll have to play for you sometime because it was just so fucking hilarious. [00:26:00] And it just turned into like, I saw at the time I was feeling, still feeling nauseous.
Eva: And I tried to go to the bathroom to throw the fuck up because I was like, maybe I need to release something I couldn't throw up. And so I feel like the release came through laughter. And it was just like, you know, hysterical. Oh, I'm literally rolling on the ground, tears bursting out of my eyes, laughing, laughing, laughing. And then the lesson was like, The world is fucked up. Like there's a lot of pain and suffering in the world. There's a lot of unanswerable questions, Eva. Like you're not going to get you dear one who was always looking for fucking answers are not going to get answers sometimes. And can you just be happy in your little corner of the universe was like, what was coming through in this hysterical laughter? And it was like kind of creepy actually, because I was like, I saw this image of the world is on fucking fire. And Tom and I are just too, [00:27:00] I saw him as like the Mad Hatter and I
Kyley: Oh, I am totally getting Manhattan or vibes as you're telling the story. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, now you'll five. Yeah, right.
Eva: yes, like a mad hatter, like crazy fucking hair. And I was like, I don't know if I can trust this dude. Like he's totally fucking mad. Like the world is on fire and we're here just in hysterics laughing because sometimes like that's all you can really do. And I was like, I don't know how I feel about that.
Eva: Like, I feel kind of like, I don't know how I feel about that. I guess I'm curious. What you think
Eva: of that?
Kyley: I mean, I'm, I, I love the vision and the invitation and also the acknowledgement of like, That feels uncomfortable and weird. I mean, right, because, oh, yes, because one of the things that's been showing up a lot for me and is like some of the subtext of what I was talking about last episode or some of what some of what in last episode I talked about [00:28:00] releasing that I am deserving of punishment and pain and, and then all this other baggage that has glommed onto that.
Kyley: And worry is like the number one. Right? If like, if like the, the, the ride or die with I deserve punishment and pain is fucking worry. And I, I mean, we all know, like, intellectually, worry doesn't do anything, you know, blah, blah. Like, I mean, how often have I gotten, you know, invitations to not worry from life and also.
Kyley: So.
Kyley: It doesn't fucking do anything. just like, it's, it's just noise and separation. And
Kyley: what I love about your trip is like. You were, you had a temper tantrum and then you had a laughing fit and there [00:29:00] was no, you weren't, uh, like we don't, we, we have, we, we, it's almost like we are afraid of either one and so we just stay in worry until life proves that it's okay to pick one of those two, you know what I mean?
Eva: Uhhuh,
Kyley: Um, and I don't know, I think, I think the answer might be more of like, Yeah, have the fucking temper tantrum, and also roll on the floor laughing, and also, it isn't terrible, it is so terrible in the world, like, you, you, you actually can't say otherwise,
Kyley: and now I'm crying, right? And it's exceptional,
Kyley: and it's just everything at the same fucking time.
Eva: Yeah. That actually feels more true [00:30:00] actually. Like there is a way in which we can overfocus on and I can focus on the world's fucked up, the world's burning, blah, blah, blah, blah. but but that's, if that is true, it has to be equally as true that it's. I don't know. Anyway, it has to be equally true that actually things are fucking beautiful. Like just, that kind of horror does not exist alone.
Eva: Like it needs, you know, cause things, well, I don't know, I wouldn't say like duality, but, but I don't know, I almost feel like that kind of pain can only be born from also having equal measures of beauty and pleasure and love. Like one doesn't exist without the other.
Kyley: Yeah,
Kyley: I think one of the things that was really rich and beautiful in the months of intense heartbreak from this past year is how frequently [00:31:00] I was simultaneously devastated and really beautifully Experiencing love sometimes just because I was in my own interior, right? There was so much love that was showing up for me, either from life or people or from my own self around the pain that it was like pain and love, you know, we're just really beautifully happening at the same time.
Kyley: But then also. I experienced the more and more I have internal capacity to feel deeply emotions that we tend to find uncomfortable without story having to. Be at the top, the more I can have two things happening at once. And so there were so many moments in the intensity of heartbreak where I would just be devastated and I would be so sad that this person that I love and miss.
Kyley: And then at [00:32:00] the exact same time, I would just be so present and content to be with my children. And like genuinely loving, it wasn't the like, shove it away. So you can be, it was just both at the exact same time. And my heart was And I was so in love with the things that were right in front of me,
Kyley: and it was really rich, like, like a really good, sweet and savory fucking dessert. You know, it was just like,
Eva: Perfect. like.
Eva: chef's kiss perfection.
Kyley: like, like, you know, I mean, it was, it was, it was so hard, but it was so, so fucking rich.
Eva: Yeah,
Eva: Yeah. Yeah. So once again, we come back to this theme that we come back to often, which is like, can we choose that can two things exist at the same time and can we hold it all, you know, even if it feels really confusing and complex. [00:33:00] Um, and I think that's like what I'm, I think what we're all practicing, you know, And yet the existential question that I'm left with is also a continual like, okay, so, um, there was actually, and then this is where I don't know kind of came in where it did feel liberating of like, yeah, there's a lot of pain in the world. And I don't, if I don't have to know. how it all works. Like, if I don't know, if I don't have to know what the solution is, I don't know, in a weird way, it felt safer.
Eva: Cause when I was like, I have to know, but I don't, it was like a grasping, grasping, grasping, grasping. And then, and then I don't know, and then it's unsafe and I'm freaked out. You know, like even this energy that I'm feeling right now talking about it feels frenetic. There was a point where I came into like, and what if I don't have to know?
Eva: The difference isn't that I know it's that I don't have to know. [00:34:00] And there was an opening there a little bit of like, okay. Can I just be with like this unknown, which seems scarier in some way, but it's actually less scary than having to know, like I have to know. So there was that piece, but then there's also this piece of like, okay, so both things can exist at once.
Eva: But what if the problem is I'm experiencing a lot of joy and happiness in my life and the world is not. So the two things that are happening at once aren't in me, but like I'm living a really beautiful life. Um. But there's war and famine and genocide happening, right? This again, this comes up on the podcast quite often. And it's this feeling of like, is it okay for me to be really fucking happy when the world's stuff? This is not new, Kyley. This is the same shit I come back to all the time. Is it okay for me to be really happy if like, Other people are suffering and it felt like a [00:35:00] leaving people, you know, like, like I'm abandoning people and I guess I'm just kind of sitting with this again then going back to this visual of me cracking up the kitchen, feeling like a mad person where that could also easily shift to like feeling.
Eva: And also I was finally sane because. I was enjoying, I was enjoying my life, not, no longer willing for the world to become sane until I could enjoy it. Like on one hand, there was like this abandonment and then on the other hand being like, but what am I going to do? Am I going to wait for the whole world to be peaceful until I feel peaceful? And I used to think that's how it was. I was like, we're not, we're not free until everyone is free. And now I'm like, that's a trap, dude. I'm out. That's a fucking trap. That's, not only is that a trap, but that's fucking insane. I'm gonna [00:36:00] wait for the whole world to be free until I am free. Fuck that. No fucking way, dude. No way. Like, I just, such an adamant feeling of like, this is why we're crazy. Like, again, coming back to this quote of, Rumi quote, Why do you stay in prison when the door is so wide open? Because I'm waiting for everyone else to get free so that I can justify my own freedom because I need to like wait for everybody.
Eva: And now, and then there was this whole moment on that trip of like, no, no, no, girl. Like, you be free. You be free, you be happy. And then live from there and see what happens. And I don't know what's gonna happen, but hopefully with, you know, the, going back to your mantra, which I love so much, is what's good for me. It's good for everyone else. But that can be really scary.
Kyley: um,
Kyley: what is it that you [00:37:00] think will happen? The part of you who's really afraid? That because I feel like this comes up a lot for you in different ways, in different angles, this idea of like, essentially, I can't be too happy because someone, someone else will suffer or be hurt by my hat. There's like, there's, it shows up in different ways, but it's a reoccurring version of basically like, I can't be too happy or too free because someone else will pay the price of this.
Kyley: And I'm curious. What's the fear? What's the thing that you think will happen if you were just like, really fucking happy?
Eva: I think separation. Yeah. Like I'm, the way that I connect with people, the way how is that I need to [00:38:00] be with people suffering and right. And that's almost like, almost what like, It's, it's, it's tricky because that's what compassion is, you know, we're taught that like being compassionate is really good. I'm also like, and I think naturally many of us are compassionate by nature. Um, so, and maybe I'm distorting that like getting confused what compassion really is, but actually I think what's really happening is it's a higher, like this type of compassion is I think it's actually very like, for lack of a better word, like very high level. It's like, can you hold the suffering of people in your heart, but not
Eva: also not Take it in.
Eva: at the same time?
Eva: Like it's not,
Eva: and also not suffer, like not suffer. Like, and it's really trippy because I see Tom do this all the time. It's like, he will cry the drop of the hat of like people suffering. And it's like, he lets it in also is [00:39:00] like totally fucking happy. All the time. And I'm like, this is so weird. Like, it's kind of like, I don't know.
Eva: It's, it's weird.
Kyley: So I think you could easily get lost in a delicious way and do a lot of healing around. Like I'm not responsible for other people suffering and all of those things. And I think the more telling piece is that it's the fear of separation, because what you're actually afraid of is. Isolation, rejection, abandonment.
Kyley: And so the loyalty to other people's suffering is actually kind of a distraction, right? It's like, that's a coping mechanism. And so you could resolve the coping mechanism, but the thing under the thin, the fat, the shortcut would be really sitting with, is it true that my happiness [00:40:00] would result in isolation, abandonment, isolation, abandonment, separation.
Eva: Yeah, and from, I mean, from a very logical standpoint right now, and I don't think this is a bad thing, but I think I need to actually like let it in because I can intellectually feel it. But like the letting, the part that I want to let in is like, I also can see like, actually, you know, my happiness is what's going to lead to connection, empathy, like all the good things that I want.
Kyley: and I really feel there is fear and there is some real fear matters in the same way that last episode you shared such a great story about like this part of you that you were letting fear go. Thank you so much for taking care of me. I love you. You know, there was some real heavy duty protective loving fear that is [00:41:00] convinced that your happiness leads to separation somehow.
Kyley: I want to kind of like push you into really feeling tenderly where that fear is and
Eva: Mm hmm.
Kyley: of how many times in your life you have felt afraid that your happiness will cause pain essentially
Eva: Mm hmm. Mm
Kyley: almost as a as a means of letting it go really just Yeah. I just like really want to like push you gently into feeling a long life of fear that your happiness causes pain.
Eva: Wait, you want to push me into a long life of?
Kyley: no, no, no. I want to, I want to push you into like just feeling how like that, like how long that has been with you,
Kyley: this feeling that my happiness will somehow cause pain and[00:42:00]
Eva: hmm. Mm hmm. I want to like take that in and then not also like continue into
Eva: a new, a new phase. Okay. So yeah, I definitely think I want to sit with that more. As we wrap up, do you have any, I'm putting you in the hot seat, succinct thoughts on takeaways about finding peace in the unresolved? Because I really do
Eva: think that that's what so much life is about. You know, coming back to the theme of like, there's a lot of fucked up shit going on out there, and we're not, not going to know the solution. It doesn't mean that it can't be solved. It doesn't mean that conscious, and really what I think, What solves it all isn't going to, you know, it's going to be something, a power greater than us is going to come in and I don't, you know, we don't know that this is not all part of the grand plan, you know, we've been on earth for so little time, like, we don't know what the, like, this could all be divinely orchestrated, [00:43:00] but we don't know that.
Eva: So, Okay, but in
Kyley: to
Kyley: make space. There's often a specific or particular or sometimes many, many. Points of friction in the unknown or The unresolved and when we struggling to accept it, because that's what we're really talking about is like really just profound acceptance. Someone shot off the press of a profound acceptance journey.
Kyley: What are you making it mean? Either outcome, you know, in the in this unresolved thing, what are you making it mean?
Kyley: And what does it either? I mean, saying either is if there's two, there's usually more, but like either. Yeah. What is it that either outcome you [00:44:00] think asks of you, right? So going back to your story about your parents, like, the, the, the, the belief has been the only op, the only solution is I sacrifice myself and I don't want to, and so I'm stuck, like, getting clear on what is it, what is it that you think you have to give or give up or be or become on either of these paths that potentially you don't want to or are resisting or are afraid of?
Kyley: For better or worse, and what is it that you think the outcome will mean about you and your identity and your value?
Kyley: And basically, like, let the circumstance off the fucking hook of answering any of those questions or proving any of those things.
Eva: short, what I hear you say, basically, is using the situation, When we come, I'm coming from a [00:45:00] very practical standpoint, like for anybody listening, right, if you're ever in a place where you're feeling like there's no conclusion, we will all find ourselves stuck in some point in our lives where there's not a resolution to a problem that feels really painful for us. And so what you're offering is, it just becomes, an opportunity, a place where we can, yeah, unpack and like discover basically everything you just said, all the meaning behind that we put behind all of this stuff. Like, it doesn't mean that we're, it's going to give us a resolution, or maybe it will, but um, it's not about finding, if there is no resolution, what is there for us is, Yeah, like looking, asking, like, it might be, the questions might be different for everybody, but like asking these sorts of questions to figure out what it is that, um, the meaning behind all of it.
Eva: Does that make sense?
Kyley: Yeah, yeah, I think, um,
Kyley: let me think for a [00:46:00] second.
Kyley: Unresolved things or issues without experiences without closure, part of why they don't fit comfortably inside of us, part of why we experienced the like banging our head against them isn't necessarily because like the situation with your parents sucks, right? And we've spoken before about the difference between suffering and pain, right?
Kyley: Like there is real pain there, but the suffering for you comes for some of the reasons we've talked about today. And. When we have that kind of suffering churn experience, when something feels unresolved and, and there's suffering in that, I think we have to seek, I think a source of comfort can be, why do I want this resolution?
Kyley: Like, what do I think this resolution will give [00:47:00] me?
Eva: Mm-hmm
Kyley: Why do I want that? What am I afraid of that?
Kyley: What story about myself am I saying about that?
Eva: Mm-hmm
Kyley: And if you can unhook the situation, right? So basically, I'll use the example of like my friendship breakup when I could unhook, when it was no longer Liz's responsibility to prove to me that I am in fact not deserving of pain, right? And that her leaving was not because I deserved it.
Eva: Mm-hmm
Kyley: When I made it not her job,
Eva: Mm-hmm
Kyley: it didn't suddenly stop hurting that she left.
Kyley: It just stopped being full of suffering
Eva: Mm-hmm.
Kyley: because I didn't, I didn't need something that I wasn't getting. I was just with the pain of having lost a friend instead of the suffering of, I think I'm deserving of pain.
Eva: Yes. Yes. [00:48:00] Yeah. So circling back a little bit to what we had said earlier, this idea of like, I'm looking for my parents. I want my parents to find resolution in their shit. Your question was like, what do I think it's going to give me? Right. And we kind of talked about this. It's like, I want them to be happy so that I can kind of, so I can finally be happy, you know, but anyway, there's definitely more digging to be done, but it's also, you know, anyway, just to offer context in case it's helpful for anyone listening.
Eva: I feel like it has something to do with like, what do I think it's going to Well, actually, I think you had said it's safety in my happiness. I think it's going to give me safety in my happiness, and that's not something that they can give me. That's something that I have to cultivate on my own by, I think, dismantling a lot of my false beliefs, you know, you know, whatever, going into my body and doing the somatic work and blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, et cetera, et cetera, et cetera.
Kyley: If you no longer when you no longer carry the belief that essentially you're going to be punished for pleasure, right? Basically, that's the thing. [00:49:00] You're the thing. And the thing here is perhaps that you will be punished for your pleasure and your happiness. If you no longer carry that belief, then you get to be happy, which you are and are really beautifully living a life of happiness and.
Kyley: Your mom could have a tragic accident and it's not that the accident wouldn't be fucking terrible.
Kyley: It's just that it wouldn't mean, see, you are deserving of
Eva: Yes. Exactly. It wouldn't become a crazy superstitious, like Yeah. Uh, unhealthy negative feedback loop.
Kyley: Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes.
Eva: Yes, yes, yes. Woo. Okay. well, I think we got there.
Kyley: I think we did. I also want to speak just to the bigness of what you are experiencing and what this trip was for you and what all of this is for you. Just before we started recording, just before we started, like, officially recording, I got hit with such an [00:50:00] intense wave of anxiety, Eva. Like, I felt. Really uncomfortable for like the first few minutes of recording just like big anxiety in a way that I haven't felt in a little bit and, uh, And then once we started talking, I was like, Oh, I mean, Oh, this is, this is my body's like energetic response to just because I have my own version of this very conversation.
Kyley: Right. And, and, um, but I also share that because I think my body will do that sometimes. Like, know, shaman style. Like I get the, I get the energetic hit before the conversation happens. And so I just want to reflect back. This is fucking big.
Eva: Mm-hmm Yeah.
Kyley: Well, stuff about your parents, but also I think this thing about like pleasure and pain, punishment for pleasure, like these are, these are [00:51:00] huge seismic things and it
Eva: Yeah. I mean, I felt it because I, I didn't feel like I, I was just processing this for myself. I felt like I was processing it like for the world, like for ancestors, you know? And like for the world. Like, it felt like because one more person goopy, who can be like free in their happiness is like freedom for everybody. I will also say, and it was also weird because I like went to bed that night being like, Oh, this is unresolved and blah, blah, blah. And then woke up the next morning and felt so fucking light. Like immediately my eyes opened and I was like, Like, had taken this huge load off. You know what I mean? And I feel like that also happens. Meaning like, yeah, just like, because that's the other thing. I was so tired. I think I'm like so fucking tired. I thought I was gonna sleep like a million fucking years. [00:52:00] Anyway, and I guess just to say a last minute thing about being really thankful for plants and medicine and this type of medicine that I think is like so life changing and so healing and like wants the best for us and like does a lot of this stuff for us that has nothing to do with the intellectual mind. And it's really beautiful.
Kyley: also a thousand percent, everything you just said, and What if the question you said you used to say, you know, I'm not free until we're off, you know, until we're all free.
Kyley: What if, and now you're in this in between right now. That's not true, but also like, I don't exactly know what, you know, what next. What if, what if you could be so fucking free that you liberated all of us?
Eva: Like, you saying that, I don't know, man. I think that's kind of what this is all about. Yeah. Yeah. Like, it feels [00:53:00] big, but, but what I mean when I say like, Yes, sure. Maybe it's, it's happening through my systems, my body and my consciousness. But, but I think that's like an invitation for everyone. You know what I mean?
Eva: Cause I actually think that's how we help each other.
Kyley: Hmm.
Eva: I think that you're right. I think that that could be what this is about. And that, I think also that's like what invitation is. And that's like the possibility that I hold within myself. I really see that clearly. And. I also think that that is, like, available.
Eva: Obviously, it's available to everybody, and I also think that's the invitation for everybody.
Kyley: I mean, I think this is part of your sacred work. I think that's also why this feels so big because I think this is a deeper iteration of a thing you are forever teaching us. Like, you deserve to be free. You deserve to be free. You fucking deserve to be free. Why do you deserve to be free? Well, on one level, because your freedom sets us all free.
Kyley: [00:54:00] Um,
Eva: Well, I'm crying. So, you know, you've hit something when the body has, it's like my body is hearing something that is true, you know? And I honestly feel like, That's part of why I came to Brazil like it all it for me. It just feels like just one continual fucking journey, dude It's been a wild ride and I love you Because you have been here Guiding me as my Sherpa and your guide. Oh Okay, should we do joy? You've got two little kids who are eager to have their summer day Winter things.
Eva: Yeah
Kyley: let's bring you joy, my love.
Eva: Oh, wow. It's so weird being on the opposite side, like we're so opposite. You're celebrating summer. I'm celebrating winter. Um, yeah, I guess that's, that's just been a big theme in my life because [00:55:00] it's very prevalent. Um, I mean, you know, it doesn't, Brazil doesn't get, well, it's been like, it's into the 40s at night, which is really cold when you don't have insulation or heat. So, um, yeah, it's been, I've been making bone broth every week. Which has just been like so sweet. And also, by the way, if anyone drinks bone broth, I highly recommend you add miso into it. It's so effing good. And then like hot water, you know, those like hot water bottles that you fill with hot water and like, but use them for your tummy when you have like cramps.
Eva: I like put them in my bed at night to warm my feet and just like cuddles and like having a fire in the house. Like, yeah, just the comfort of all of life's gifts that make winter cozy, you know? Yeah. And what about you?
Kyley: My truest answer in this moment is this.[00:56:00]
Eva: Mm-hmm
Kyley: I just love being your friend. Oh, I'm going to cry.
Kyley: I'm, I'm in love with our podcast creation as a means to like have this sacred space together and each week and talk to all the cool things that have come out of it. And.
Kyley: Knowing you is one of the greatest blessings in my life, friend.
Kyley: And I didn't know that when we started this show. We were just this girl who seemed really cool. I also wanted to shot talk on a podcast and, uh,
Eva: Yeah. I, I'm so glad that you said that because that was actually what came to me first when I thought about my joy and I was like, oh, listeners are tired of hearing us
Kyley: I know
Eva: we love each other.
Kyley: it's a different [00:57:00] joy for exactly that reason, but I could, I mean, I had, I have many right now, I have some great anecdotes, but the one that was like screaming out was like this,
Eva: I know
Kyley: that is loving you and being loved by you.
Eva: I love you, Kyley, but also, yeah, I love you and I love this space and I love our listeners and thank you for being here. Like, you know, we haven't talked for a few weeks and it feels so good to come back and be like, yeah, we. We get to explore the mystery together. What is better than that?
Kyley: in this long, meandering, exquisite conversation. I feel like there's no clear resolution, this feels as good as any, a place like pause.
Eva: Yes, and
Kyley: Um, and
Eva: and come back to something familiar.
Kyley: a topic really alive for you still in this, that we.
Eva: Yes, I want to explore, um, finding peace in the unresolved, [00:58:00] which we'll talk about more next week. So, so I'm excited about that conversation. You can help walk me through this, like this mushroom medicine journey that I had, but for right now, let's go back to tried and true. What's something that's bringing you joy?
Kyley: Summer vibes. Uh, I am recording this from my backyard so you can probably hear and yesterday in particular I had this little, uh, I have this little patio in my backyard that was just like, you know, full of like, there was a table that we never used and you know, kids shit. And yesterday, my son, who loves to be industrious, and I cleaned all the stuff off, you know, put it in the garage, clean, like actually like got out the mop and cleaned the patio.
Kyley: And I laid out a little inside outside rug. I got a little chair and I actually. Put a little altar down and it, my [00:59:00] intention is, and I used it this morning as a yoga space and, uh, and I haven't had a devotional or regular yoga practice since Desi was a baby, since Desi was like one. Um, but it's been very beautifully calling me back.
Kyley: And, uh, so this morning I woke up before we recorded and said some sat in prayer. And then. Practice yoga and in my beautiful outside space and thought, the hell is better than this?
Eva: Yes. Woohoo! Summer vibes. Yay. Good. Yeah. There's not. There's no way we would ever do joy without mentioning summer at some point because summer is the best. You and I love summer except so now I'm here in winter south of the equator and it is winter here right now, Brazil. And I am the opposite. I'm like cozied up with a hot cup of tea, blankets, [01:00:00] hoodie.
Eva: My joy is that, um, in, you know, for those of you who are human design people, I'm a projector. I love my alone time and solitude probably more than most people that I know. And I'm, I love my life. in Brazil and the people who I'm surrounded by deeply and I had an opportunity to just have a week to myself and totally took it.
Eva: So I'm not now on what I call a solo retreat where, um, yeah, just one going to the, I was supposed to stay with a friend that didn't end up working out. So I just ended up getting an Airbnb and I'm just in this cute little cabin all by myself a week. And it's also very much a period retreat because I planned it around my bleed, which is when I like to be alone the most.
Eva: And I just, uh, I'm just so thankful and so grateful. And it's like such a juicy and delicious time. And I'm just really proud of myself for making it happen because. You know, sometimes we could easily just be like, no, it's [01:01:00] selfish or it's just kind of hard to.
Kyley: We're silly or yeah, superfluous
Eva: Yes. Yes. Or, or like I was so busy and there's all these other things to do. Like I'm not gonna, I can't fit it in, but I managed to do it all. So good for me.
Kyley: I love that. I love that. And, um, anytime I've done a solo like week in the woods or weekend in the woods by myself, it's just the best.
Eva: Yeah. Yeah.
Kyley: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.
Eva: All right, friends. We love you so much. Thank you for always, again, for tuning in and joining us on our podcast. Journeys. Uh, if you like the show, like, subscribe, write a review, share it with your friends. It really, really means the world to us.
Kyley: And we'll see you next week.