In this episode of Hello Universe, Kyley and Eva wade unpack how victim consciousness can form as a protective response to real harm, heartbreak, overwhelm, and unmet needs and how it can quietly harden into an identity that keeps us stuck, depleted, and disconnected from our power.
In this episode of Hello Universe, Kyley and Eva wade unpack how victim consciousness can form as a protective response to real harm, heartbreak, overwhelm, and unmet needs and how it can quietly harden into an identity that keeps us stuck, depleted, and disconnected from our power.
This conversation is not about bypassing pain, minimizing trauma, or pretending hard things didn’t happen. Quite the opposite. Kyley and Eva explore how victim consciousness often arises when pain hasn’t been fully felt, witnessed, or metabolized. They talk candidly about resentment, self-pity, martyrdom, righteous anger, and the strange comfort that can come from staying “right” and wronged.
This is a conversation for anyone who has ever felt stuck in resentment, helplessness, or “why me?” energy, and also for anyone who is afraid to fully feel their anger, grief, or longing.
What we cover in this episode:
🌀 What victim consciousness actually is and how it differs from experiencing real harm
🧠 How victim identity can form as a protective response to unwitnessed pain
🔥 The difference between liberating anger and anger that keeps us stuck
💔 Self-pity, martyrdom, resentment, and the “I’ve done everything right” trap
🧍♀️ How victim consciousness feels in the body and why somatic awareness matters
🛁 The “warm bath” of victimhood and why it can feel so hard to leave
👶 Parenting, inner children, and the role of allowed emotional expression
🌱 Reclaiming power without bypassing grief, vulnerability, or reality
💫 Connect with Eva & Kyley
Sign up for Awakening with Eva for FREE
https://dogged-trailblazer-8821.kit.com/756fe8553d
Torchbearer Workshop with Kyley
https://portal.kyleycaldwell.com/torchbearer-workshop
Eva's instagram: @iamevaliao
Book a discovery call with Eva
Kyley's Instagram: @kyleycaldwell
Kyley's free mini-course
"Victim Consciousness with Kyley and Eva"
Kyley: [00:00:00] Hey everyone, it's Kylie.
Eva: And it's Eva.
Kyley: Welcome to Hello Universe.
Eva: Okay. Today we are going to unpack the sticky, delicious, sometimes icky experience of being the victim. Or what I really call often when I'm working with people is like being in victim consciousness, like you're just in the consciousness of being a victim, which is to me, I, I can't believe we haven't had this conversation before because I feel like it's been a.
Big awakening, seeing how there are times in my life where I've really been [00:01:00] the victim and how it's, how harmful it is, not just to me, but to other people. And then also how fucking delicious it, delicious it's been to, to unravel for, you know, free myself from that and see it really clearly. But it shows up in these tricky ways sometimes.
Yeah. And also I feel like sometimes it's like, what do we do when we, when how, how do we get out of it? And. I think I'm still learning, but you know, we always bring what we're learning to the podcast and I think we are, we have probably some helpful things to share because the truth is, whether you know it or not, chances are if you're a human being, you've been a victim or in victim consciousness, I actually think, honestly, much more than you even know, unless you're like intentionally tracking.
And so my hope is that this conversation will help people Yeah. Free themselves from this. It's, it's a, it's a gross feeling, you know, when
Kyley: Yeah. Well, and it's interesting because, um, uh. We'll preface at the top of the show. [00:02:00] Obviously in life things happen in which you are harmed and that matters. And like, and in fact, I often find the answer to the releasing my attachment to being the victim looks like really? And actually being really honest and feeling the depths of like, oh man, that shit happened.
I got really hurt. Um, so this is. And I think listeners know that this is not an episode about like bypassing, um, our own wounds, but noticing where our identity is. Like really just like wrapped up snugged and tied to like being the victim and, and like attachment to that which can create this feeling of being experienced more weird than stuck.
Right? Then when we're really attached to being the victim, then we're stuck in that role. We're stuck experiencing that over like.
Eva: helpless sort of like for me. Yeah. Woe is me, unempowered. Yeah. That, that sort of place, but. Yes. Thank you for speaking to that. Like at [00:03:00] the very top of the show, this isn't about bypassing when real harm has been caused and experienced, but I, I also think I wanna be careful about that and be explicit about that because I think sometimes we can also do the thing where we're like, oh, I don't wanna be a victim.
So then so
Kyley: Yes.
Eva: so then let me like, pull myself up, up by the bootstraps and then we don't feel our feelings. And again, we're not, we're not, that's not what we're talking
Kyley: yes. Act. Yeah. Actually a good point of, in trying to like, quote unquote, not be the victim, we can actually try, like, make it worse because we're escaping. And I, I shared this offline that I had this interesting moment in therapy months ago where I said something of like, well, not to be self pitying.
And my therapist was like, well, what if you are self videoing? Like. And I was just like, what? And I might even shared this on the podcast before, but it blew my mind because, you know, I'm the queen of like, feel your feelings. No, all feelings are valid. But self pity for me feels [00:04:00] so attached to that. Like, woe is me, I am the victim thing, which it doesn't feel good.
And it feels very much like when I'm paying attention to it, I can see the places where it's like, of my own making. And so I, it's, it's an emotion that I like. Unintentionally. I'm like, oh, that's, that's gross. That's bad. And it does, again, it does feel gross. But this idea that my therapist was like, okay, but what if you were like having a pity party?
And like, would that, wouldn't that be fine? Was just like,
Eva: Mind blowing 'cause Exactly. 'cause I think we're so often taught that like it's gross and that we have to be, that's, we need to like be strong. And that being, having being self pitting is weak. And so it's, we're trying to do the exact opposite. So I just think it's really interesting 'cause I think ultimately this always comes down to the same thing, which is like knowing thy self and letting yourself.
Like giving yourself what you need in the moment. 'cause sometimes it's great to have a fucking pity party and sometimes that's actually what we need and we want to kick and scream and be a petulant child, and that's incredibly [00:05:00] cathartic, you know? Um, but other times I can name some very close dear ones in my life who have been stuck, stuck in victim mode.
Like it's just kind of their default, um, their whole life. And it's
Kyley: can I ask a question?
Eva: Sad to experience, I think. Yeah. Yes, please ask.
Kyley: How, let's define the terms, like how do you know, like. What is being in victim mode and like what, how can you recognize or how have you recognized when you have been there?
Eva: Okay. Oh my God. It, it definitely is a feeling of like helplessness
Kyley: Mm-hmm.
Eva: and also I. My, one of my go-to quotes about victimhood is a Byron Katie quote, and her quote is like, victims are violent people. And I have noticed that when I go within myself, I notice that I'm being a victim because I'm like, fuck you and the rest of the world, or you know, whoever's [00:06:00] wronged me, whoever has wronged me, I go into a righteous state.
I'm so righteous. And there's a strong sense of like separation that's like I'm the one who's the victim here and whether it's um, like shared out loud or not, but there's this like resentfulness that's just been building it like me and the world or me and the situation or me, and. This relationship where I'm acting as if I don't have any power or say, or agency in it.
And that's why I feel, and that's why I feel resentful, because I'm really believing in my victim consciousness that I'm, yeah, that it's almost like I've been, I've been wronged and maybe even tricked or duped or something. And. And I'm like, not at fault at all. I don't know. I mean, there's so many different flavors of it, but it it's this, this helpless feeling mixed with I think a sense of [00:07:00] fuck you is, a sense, is is how I experience victim consciousness sometimes.
And I'm sure as we talk actually more will be revealed. But I'm curious for you, I wanna ask the same question. How do you
Kyley: Oh, that's really interesting. I think. Um. When I'm in victim consciousness about, uh, like there's, there's a couple different modes of it. When I'm in victim consciousness where I feel like I've been wronged by someone and I'm like, like there is a, there is, um, there's like a bitterness to my anger. know? Like there's, and, and for me, bitterness and resentment are always, I think it all comes back to attachment, but bitterness and resentment. Like the flavor of anger, that's the part of me that like wants to stay mad, right? My bitter self is not interested in feeling better. She wants to like ride the [00:08:00] bitter train till the fucking end.
And that like that is a helpful tell for me if I'm being in victim consciousness because there's times where like people have hurt. I have been very hurt. By actions of other people. You know, you can go listen to when friends break up part one and two for a good story and like part of that journey was like, yeah, I had to get really fucking pissed and I had actually like feel a lot of anger.
I was my way of getting out of victim consciousness, but it was an anger that like had the energy of movement and release behind it. It was an anger that was, that was like, wanted to move, whereas like the bitter part of me wants to just be like, and I will hate you forever
Eva: Yes.
Kyley: have been so wronged.
Eva: Mm-hmm.
Kyley: then that's, that's an anger where I, that's, that's what I'm like, I'm the one who's suffering. And then there's also this flavor where I'm like. Woe is me. This is one. This is definitely one that [00:09:00] comes up. I think even more than like the fuck you resentment One. I think one shows up for me a lot is like woe is me.
I have done everything right. I have been the goodest girl. I have done all the things and like, is my cake?
Eva: Yes. Oh. Oh, that's so good. I'm so happy that you're pointing it out right where you're, and I wonder if you could speak to this more. Is it like where you're like, I've. Oh, what is that? When we do that, when we're like, I, it's like the should, like I've done everything right and I haven't got my comeuppance.
It is like this victim, like almost like a demandingness that I think lacks well, it's interesting. I was gonna say it lacks humility, but I don't wanna make it sound like also sometimes
Kyley: Yeah. Well,
Eva: allowed to be angry about you not getting what you think you deserve, you know?
Kyley: Yeah. Or even, not even that you think you deserve, but like that you want. Right. And that it's, it's like, um, it, it is, it's an anger [00:10:00] that is about like. It's the woe is me energy that I, that is my tell that I am in victim mode because that, for me, again, yeah, I didn't realize this before, but it is all about attachment. It's about like I, when I'm in victim mode. I want to stay the victim, like my identity feels like safe or comfortable or soothed in some way by being the wronged party.
And so, or like being aggrieved. And so like when I'm having this, like I have been the goodest girl and what the fuck, where's my cake? Like is, it feels the energy of like, in that. If I were to like fully release to those feelings, I might cry. I might be angry, I might stomp my feet. I might like feel betrayal or like abandoned.
Abandoned by life, but I'm actually like holding all of those more intense, truer feelings away by just being like [00:11:00] pouty. There's like a
Eva: It's like, yeah, yeah. Kylie's like crossing her lips, like, and your, your bottom lips is puffed out. You know, you're just like, oh, huh.
Kyley: Yeah. Like, why can't I have it and what do I need to do?
Eva: I feel like you're doing an invitation of Jesse because I'm, I'm not, he's not that I'm saying he's a victim all the time, but I've heard you say, you know, like when he's upset, that's what he sounds like. You know, when we're, when we are five or when we're nine or 10, like that's how we express the anger because I feel like victimhood sometimes is, is going back to like this little kid energy, which I actually think is an interesting thing too.
'cause it's like that's actually not even the problem. I actually think sometimes it's helpful to let ourselves. Get that out of the system, but as long as it's about, uh, with the intention of moving through it and like you're saying, not holding on to it. Yeah.
Kyley: and this is what was Yes, I'm glad you mentioned that because an, uh, like aha for this episode was actually a moment of parenting that I had recently. Where does he [00:12:00] come home from school? And he was like, in a fucking mood. Like we've all had those days where like shit goes wrong and like, you know, the last.
40 minutes of the day are bad and you're just like pissed. And he was in a mood and it was annoying to be around because like the mood that he was in was like a looping, right? It was like, I like want to stay. He like, I could feel how much he just wanted to stay in his bad mood. And, and I, I was annoyed by that probably 'cause it felt a little too close to home what I was feeling that day too.
Right. But I was also trying to help him and. Eventually, like I could see him being mad, but then I could also see him just being like, eh, that like pouty thing. And so eventually I was like, okay, this is what we're gonna do. Come on. And you know, we talked, we did all the things and I was like, come in the living room.
And he did not want to. And I was like, stop your feet. And he's like, I don't want to. And I was like, stop your feet. And I basically like forced him to do this whole somatic extras of like stomping his feet. [00:13:00] Growling and throwing pillows, which is when I realized like, oh, mom also needed to growl and throw some fucking pillows.
Um, but it was really interesting watching the like shift that happened for both of us from this like, stagnant, ugh, this is hard and I don't like it. And why isn't it working out for me to like, oh. I feel better now because we like actually stomped our feet and threw all the pillows and growled and then we were like cracking up as we were throwing these pillows around.
Um,
Eva: Yeah. To like let yourself have like the full experience of it rather
Kyley: yeah.
Eva: I think some version, I don't know. I do wonder, like I do wonder if sometimes when we're in that pouty, woe is me, do we also not let ourselves have the full version of it and so therefore we don't get to move through it?
Kyley: I feel that I can, I can come, I feel that a lot I like can come up to the place where like, that's where anger for me, it's often anger. Like anger is often actually the release. Valve for the, like the the victim thing for [00:14:00] me. And it's like I tiptoe up to where actually I would feel angry, which would probably then leave to grief, but instead I collapse back into this like despairing pity because there's something that's like, I don't know, my ego feels safer in the despairing pity than if I were to tip into the like anger and grief.
That's the true, that's truer.
Eva: Yeah. I mean, I will say, and it makes me sad, but the person who comes to mind the most when I think about someone who's like a victim or in victim consciousness is my my mother. And um, and I've seen how it just keeps her so stuck. But I also think or act, if I had to guess, and I think this is a very good guess, it's like.
It's a buffer, you know, it's just, it's another form of a buffering so that she doesn't have to feel all the other things that are underneath that, which I think is a combination of like incredible fucking grief and [00:15:00] anger. And I don't think she's comfortable with anger, like true anger. But also I think she'd also have to deal with some like, um, regret in her own life or, or.
Needing to take responsibility for certain things that I
Kyley: Yeah.
Eva: would be so painful for her to do or just needing to like be with all of it. Because I think she has a lot of, yeah, I don't know. So, so I do. I think that's a really helpful takeaway. You know, like if we're noticing that, if we're in that like pouty victim consciousness mode.
It's an opportunity for us to be like, okay, maybe there's something here that I need to be feeling that I'm not allowing myself to do,
Kyley: Yeah.
Eva: too scary. And like you said, there is a comfort like, oh my God, it's so, the thing that Tom, my partner says about Victimness is like, he always calls it the warm bath.
He's like, it is so comfortable. Like we just wanna stay in there forever, like.
Kyley: Mm.
Eva: It's good to notice that there's something [00:16:00] absolutely fucking delicious about it. Like I think the ego loves victim consciousness. Yes.
Kyley: Yes, absolutely, because, and I think, I think. I think we, all of us, all of us who are humans have had like hard and scary and sad and heartbreaking things happen to us. And to some extent they probably all have not been, like all of us have experiences of heartbreak or pain that hasn't been adequately witnessed.
I think that's like something that's all, if not, you know, potentially all of us carry. Um, and, um. And the victim is the part who's like, well, I'll just hold this. Like, I will hold this because it did happen to you. You, you were hurt and it does matter. And no one else, you know, the feeling is like maybe no one else sees, but the victim part [00:17:00] is like, but I see it.
I'll like, I'll hold this. And there's actually something very like loving and like, I will hold this and I'll hold this through the fucking end of time. You know, like, I'll hold this until the end of time
Eva: Until I get what I need, I think is
Kyley: Yes. Yes, because like what we need is either ourself or we need, we need, I find we need witness in the, like, pain, we need witness in the pain.
And sometimes that pain is too great for us to see, like, to be our own witness, right? Sometimes we need a, a bystander or a friend or a therapist to like go in with us to do the witnessing with us so that we feel safe enough to do it. Sometimes the witnessing is, you know, it's like, can be like yucky stuff, but I think the witness is definitely a buffer.
The victim is definitely a buffer. Um, and, and on doing this really loving service that's like, that did happen. It did matter. You were hurt. And like, yeah, I always feel her [00:18:00] when I'm like clear about it. I can feel her just being like, loving me lovingly, just like. Supporting my wounds.
Eva: Mm-hmm.
Kyley: like she's like a collector.
She's got them like all in their like mint collection boxes up
Eva: Yes. Yeah. Like American girl dolls or whatever,
Kyley: Yes,
Eva: Labu boos. Um, [00:19:00] [00:20:00] I think, okay. I. I think you're touching on something really important because what I have also found for myself when I'm feeling like the victim, it's usually because I need something and I need to, I. It's really, it's actually really helpful because like how you pointed out that sometimes it's like love if we can see it as love and we interact with it as love, really what I'm hearing, what I see myself loving about this is like I'm want to be in this victimhood right now because I need attention and I need acknowledgement and I need someone to come and put their arms around me and go, Hey baby girl.
Like I see when I know you're really scared and that sucks and this sucks and blah, blah, blah, blah. And I think. I'm in victim consciousness, chances are I'm probably not [00:21:00] giving that to myself enough. Actually, like one a hundred percent of the time, I'm not giving that myself that enough. And sometimes yes, it comes from other people, but I, I have found it really helpful.
Just be like, oh, that's what I need. Like let me just see and acknowledge and like love myself and validate my own experience. And in fact, I think it just points to how often. How I need a lot of that actually, and I think that that's okay.
Kyley: Can I, can I ask, how do you tell the, I think this is like. It can be like a tricky balance. Like how do you tell the difference between when you are, um, like being maybe pitying and like reinforcing the victim and when you are feeling like the two true grief that allows it to move. When, what's the difference between how can we know when we are being self righteously angry in a way that's [00:22:00] reinforcing our victim or when we're being like, like that, like liberatory kind of anger that's actually allowing something to move.
Eva: Mm. Yeah. Oh, Bravo. Shep kept Shep's kiss in the way you like asked that question even. Um, and I'd be curious to know what you'd have to say, but I think. There. I don't know. Isn't it? I, I wonder if there's, I don't know if there's anything else I would add that we haven't already spoken about, where the, where it's the, the sort of like, uh, not helpful victimness is we can tell that it's that when it is that sort of like, we wanna stay in it forever.
It's blaming, it's resentful, it's violent. It's like, fuck you 'cause it. Yeah. I don't know. Would you add anything else to that?
Kyley: But I think, okay, I'm gonna use Liz as an example, but, uh, if, uh, which is, if listeners don't know. I had this huge friendship breakup two years ago that fucked me up [00:23:00] and like it was very cathartic and like essential for my healing to like stomp around the woods and scream, fuck you a bunch of times. Like, like the girl who's standing before you does not feel whole without that.
Like, fuck you on repeat for a little while. And, and I can feel, and I can even like still remember how much that the flavor of that was not. Self pitying. So much of like, this is like, this is like a vital part of the process, right? Like you are angry and you are angry at a person for like how shit went down.
And so, um. So again, I'm trying to parse like what the line is because I think I absolutely did have to go through that phase. And I actually talked way back on the episode about how important it was to go through the, the how, how scary it was for me to let myself feel that anger. Um, but also, um, I'm trying, I'm like trying to [00:24:00] parse where the line is, like goes when that like. Fuck you. It's just like, it's just the truth. That's just the fire that's gotta come out versus when it's like, um, a kind of thing that's making us feel sick and suffering.
Eva: Hmm. Well I, that's really interesting that I wonder if it is. In your wording of it, like is it making us feel sick? Or if it, is it making us feel? Is it making us feel like liberated? You know, like, 'cause I actually That's okay. And thank you for asking this question. 'cause I think it's helping me get more clear too, is that like my victimhood does kind of make me feel sick.
Like it feels like this thing that just is like leaching all of my energy out where it's like, um. Kryptonite to kryptonite to to Superman, where I just become weaker and weaker and I'm so weak because I can't do anything. And I'm so helpless. Like that is victim like hood in, in a nutshell, it's like
Kyley: Mm-hmm.
Eva: Like you, you have no [00:25:00] power and you're stuck here forever and it's like, oh, it's just draining me of all of my energy. And then the next thing I know, I'm just a puddle of depression, like laying on the couch. You know what I mean? But I wonder if like that sort of fuck you energy where you're moving it 'cause you feel this rage that's pulsing through your body.
I don't know. That doesn't, I don't know. I think there's a, there that experience doesn't make us feel sick. It makes us feel relieved and connected to ourselves and honest, you know?
Kyley: Yeah,
Eva: Yeah. I, I think the problem with And alive. Yeah. And I think the issue with Victimness, I think it's like inherently in the. The word is like, we feel like we can't do anything. And I feel like in that other experience of like where you're actively feeling like the anchor and fuck you, it's like you're, you're kind of actively taking your power back a little bit.
Kyley: Yeah, that was definitely how I experienced that. In particular, I'm also thinking about. The [00:26:00] difference between story and feeling, which is
Eva: Hmm.
Kyley: think I come back to a lot because I think my, like when I'm in victim mode, I'm very attached to the story that like. You have wronged me or, right, or, or I've been the goodest girl and where is my right?
Like, whatever it is, like I'm very attached to the story of like, um, the particulars of what happened and when I'm like, just feeling the feeling, which might be an uncomfortable anger or like a really deep grief fight, it might be a feeling I don't like love necessarily. It's more about like I'm in the emotion of it and I might be using words to feel the emotion.
But I'm not as attached to the story.
Eva: Yes. Yeah, well
Kyley: make sense?
Eva: because the victim. Love story. It's like we just repeat it, repeat it, repeat it over and over again, because again, it's that ego feeding that we get to do. Which I also wanna point out, going back to your first question of like, how do we know when we're in victim mode is that I know I'm in it when it's [00:27:00] my whole mo is me, me, me.
It's me, me, me, me, me. My whole, like every, like my story, my consciousness is, is just taking up. By me thinking about myself, which I have also found like doesn't actually feel good when you're in that obsessive state where I think that's actually very painful. You know, when we think that we are like the center of the universe and we forget, we feel like it's a complete sense of separation.
We're like disconnected from, you know, all that is. And I think the victim is also very self-focused
Kyley: oh for sure.
Eva: yeah. And again, which is also why. Which is can be helpful because when I'm seeing and I'm like that, I'm like, oh, I just need to give myself like a lot of love and attention right now. And I think there's something different between being like, me, me, me, me, me, and like, oh, and I, and I love you.
You know? Does, does that feel different to you?
Kyley: Um, and I'm also thinking about like the sneakiness of the victim consciousness because a [00:28:00] mom. I can be in victim consciousness, but thinking, think that I'm thinking about everybody else, right? I can think that I'm thinking about like Desi in school, birdie in school else, Nick. Like I can think that I'm thinking about everybody else, but what I'm actually doing when I'm in victim consciousness is like looping on how I'm not enough and like how like I'm letting them down or
Eva: Or they've wronged me and they don't appreciate.
Kyley: Yes, like there's some, like there's some. It's like it's self-seeking in that like, I'm just basically like using them as props for my own story.
Eva: Mm-hmm.
Kyley: Right. Um, um, and that again can feel like sneaky. Right. Um, because also we didn't talk about this one, but I think this is related. I think like another victim thing is the murder. Like, I've done everything for everybody and this one isn't like.
Super alive for me. But I think that's another big way we will feel, martyr, feel is like the martyrdom of like, don't you [00:29:00] see, oh, I've done this for you and like,
Eva: That's a huge part of it.
Kyley: else. And um, um, I also hilariously, as soon as I just said, that sounds super alive for me. I could feel spirit being like, is that true?
Should.
Eva: Yeah, I mean, I will really, it's just really interesting 'cause I, when we thought about, when we were talking about having this conversation, the part of my life where I felt huge victim energy was, um, last year. When I was here in Taiwan and my par, both of my parents were sick. My dad was almost dying and there was just like a lot going on and it was a very stressful time.
And that has been, and, and this year has, I'm back again and it's been completely different. Both my parents are doing so much better and I noticed that last year I was feeling very victimy and it was tricky because I was holding a lot and a lot of it was really challenging, [00:30:00] but it was like. I think I was overwhelmed actually, and because I was overwhelmed.
Kyley: active crisis. Yeah.
Eva: Yeah. I was in active crisis and I think, and I think that's why it's okay sometimes if we're in victim hood, whatever, throw a fucking pity party, whatever, do it quote unquote wrong or whatever. But it was like the active crisis set off a sense of like, oh, and I'm doing all these things and like I don't wanna be doing them and blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah.
And I, in comparison to this year, what I'm seeing is like, how. Stuck actually it how stuck I was in my victim consciousness because like when you are a victim, I, it's like you'll just stay there forever in whatever difficult situation that you're in until you're willing to say, Hey, like I have power in this, or I can do things differently, or I can treat myself differently.
You know what I'm trying to say, like what I'm thinking of specifically is like I think about my mom and my dad who both have had I think, very challenging lives in some ways. And I was just thinking about this last night [00:31:00] and my dad, the difference between my mom and my dad is like, he doesn't really see himself as a victim and I don't think he complains a lot.
And I think he just kinda like moves on and my mom is stuck in the same stories over and over and over and over and over again. And in her, she's lived her life in this sort of martyr story of like, look at all the things that I've done and look at all these ways that I've wr been wronged and she can't move on.
And I think it's a really, really painful way to live. And I, this is more of just like a, I dunno if I'm going off course here. It's more of like, um. Uh, what do you call, like a warning tale where you just, uh, where you're just sort of outlining, like, we don't, you pay the price being stuck in like, victim hood.
It's, yeah.
Kyley: [00:32:00] Yeah. And, and also I think, um, what I'm thinking about is like when you're in active moments of crisis or when, or when you're like tending to old wounds or just like in the experience of living your fucking life and shit happens and it hurts, like maybe it's okay to be a victim. It sucks when we stay there.
Like if it's just a great, I think that was the gift of my therapist being like, what if you are during a pity party was like, [00:33:00] oh, what if this was just a fa, like a a one phase that has useful information, right? That's telling me like, oh, I am like buffering. Oh, I am like feeling some unwitnessed wound, right?
Like, something's going on here. And like what if it's actually fine? As long as we let it be like a loving, informative experience, and it's like it just causes suffering when we get stuck there.
Eva: Yes. Yeah, and I think I, I wanna be so careful that when we have these conversations like that, we don't like create this paradigm of like right or wrong or good or bad. And you, you know, don't ever be in victim hood because you, it's like, I think maybe there's a time for it, you know? And it's like the permission, you know, like the permission that your therapist gave you, I'm like, oh, that's really helpful for reminder for me that sometimes I get to just fucking be.
A total fucking victim if I wanna be, and just let it all out. And then, and I think there's like probably a time and [00:34:00] a place for that, which I'm always go back, goes back to like the top of our episode where we were like, you know, we're, I think like a time and a place for everything. We don't wanna make any of it wrong, you know?
Kyley: Well, and also the times that I have like moved through victim consciousness like, or like walked other people through it. It's always actually like, okay, let it out. Right? Like, yeah, tell me all the bad shit that's happened. You know? Like that's actually, ironically, the victim like wraps themselves up in the story of like how they've been wronged, but also like the, it's, it's like paradoxical because the release is like actually just being like, yeah, you know what?
All of this sucks. Or all of this sucked, or all of this hurts or fuck you. But like, um, it's like being with it enough to let it go is the, is the shift. But you [00:35:00] can't, I think specifically I'm thinking about like how you can't, you can't deny the victim away. Like I'm thinking about people. And I've been guilty of this before and I know plenty of people who do this also, where they're like, well, like, you know.
That's just the way it is. You know, like that life's hard or like, you know, it is what it is. And like our telling a surface level story of like, shit just happens. You move on. But their inner experience is like very invested in victim. 'cause there's so much self denial that's happening, right? It's like, oh well, like everyone has a hard life.
And so they're using, they're, there's the, the story is like, I'm not a victim, I don't wanna be a victim. But actually in denying the fact that like. There's some real, they're like, they like actually like reinvesting in their own. Woe is me
Eva: Yes. Yeah. Yes. Oh, that's so interesting. 'cause yeah, by not being a victim, by not letting ourselves be a victim sometimes then we don't get to like, feel our feelings and have the [00:36:00] full experience. Which is so funny 'cause I just talked about my dad and I was like, oh, he's probably more on that and he probably just has a bunch of repressed feelings too, you know?
So it's, I don't know, it's, I, I think it really all comes down to either way though, like feeling your fucking feelings, which surprise, surprise is what we always come back down to. But like, if you're feeling like a victim, feel your fucking feelings. And if you're like avoiding feeling like a victim, feel your fucking feelings.
Kyley: Right. And if you're not sure, feel your fucking
Eva: Yeah, exactly. Yeah. ,
Kyley: Okay. I have a question for you. I, for some reason, I'm really interested in being able to help discern, like when victim consciousness is showing up. Um. I think 'cause for me sometimes it's, it's sneaky and I wanna like then know how to help myself. OKay. Here's the question I have. How does victim consciousness feel in your body?
Eva: Mm-hmm. [00:37:00] Yeah. Um, I think when I, I don't know if I have a fully formed answer for this, but I know. It feels cons. Like I usually when something feels off, whether it, it could be anger or sadness or overwhelming, it's always like this constricted feeling specifically in my throat and in my middle parts, you know?
Kyley: Mm-hmm.
Eva: Um, but that sort of like. Complaining. Oh yeah. My victim by the way, is a huge complainer. She just loves to complain. And going back to what you were saying, like she's not looking for solutions, you know, like she just, and someone offers her her a solution and she just doesn't wanna hear it. 'cause she wants to complain.
So that, that complaining energy is like this sort of like slack. Like it's the opposite of how I feel when I'm empowered, which is like I'm standing up straight and I feel like strong and, and like I'm taking up space. It's more like this sort of like noodly sort of like, yeah, like, like I'm very. Almost weak and I feel
small, but the feeling actually, and, and there's all that violent feeling [00:38:00] that I was feeling where I'm like mad at everybody.
It's like this, this energy where I almost feel like I wanna shoot daggers outta people where it's like, I don't know how to describe that feeling, but it's like almost like a puffing up in
Kyley: Um.
Eva: Then this other feeling that comes in, which I have no language for, but it is a feeling of separation.
Like, I don't know if, I wish I could describe a feeling, but it's, maybe it's more of a belief. But I do feel like it's a somatic thing too, where I'm believing, like when I'm the victim and I'm powerless and I'm mad at, and I'm righteous because if I'm righteous I am. That essentially means I assume that I'm right and I'm better than everybody else.
So now I'm, you know, that's separation, you know. That. I don't know what that feels like in the body, but it feels like the lack of love, I guess, you know?
Kyley: Oh, I love how you're like, I'm not gonna answer this. Well, then you gave the most fucking exquisite answer imaginable.
Eva: Yeah. But it's just interesting 'cause it's like, it's so hard to put that into language. What does lack of love feel like in the body?
Kyley: Yeah.
Eva: I don't know, but I just know it feels like a lack of love.[00:39:00]
Kyley: The, the, the only thing that I was gonna say is like, for me, I get this like crunchy, it's like this crunchy feeling in my heart and chest. Like, it was just like, almost like the feeling of like, like pla like crunchy plastic getting rubbed together, you know, just like
Eva: Oh, it's so, so good. When we can find fun ways to describe what we're feeling, though, you know
Kyley: you know? I know, but like, that's a good, that's like a
Eva: a good tell. Yeah.
Kyley: Yeah, because I think that's what I'm interested in. Like I, and also specifically, like yesterday, I was writing in my journal. I could feel where I was like wavering between, I didn't have this exact language 'cause I, I'm getting from the podcast, but I could feel where I was like wavering between like victim consciousness and like, um, and, and like actually like the self love of feeling my feelings.
And I could feel myself like teetering back and forth between those, which I think is why I'm really interested in this. Like where's the tell of which, which one I'm [00:40:00] doing? Because when I'm feeling my feelings, like that feels like love, even if they're painful. But when I'm in that, like crunchy, it like, like withdraw from feelings and like reinvest in the story of how wronged I am
Eva: Mm-hmm.
Kyley: is, um. Is the like that, that's for me where the victim like loves to live is like, no, no, no, don't go feel those.
Just come back over here and let's just like tell the story about how hard everything is
Eva: Yeah.
Kyley: how you should have had a better outcome.
Eva: Yes. Yeah. I think I appreciate you asking this question because I think I hear what you're saying. It's like sometimes it's like, what's the hell? I don't know. There's like a, there's like a real desire to want to know like what is the helpful response, you know, and like,
Kyley: Yeah.
Eva: this, when am I responding to this in a helpful way?
Or when am I falling into like a habit of mine that is actually kind of not getting me anywhere or sometimes even like destructive.
You know, and it's [00:41:00] tricky. Yeah. So it's like, can be like a fine line and I can, yeah. I can see why you're asking.
Before we wrap this up though, I think Kylie, you were about to bring something up about power. And again, that could be like a whole nother episode, and Kylie and I both have to go soon. But I do just wanna say something about like, when you are feeling, uh, like a victim, essentially disempowered, like part of the process of beyond just, or in, in addition to like loving yourself and being with your feelings and all that stuff is like. Coming back to like, and questioning and, and um, or even just affirmations or whatever it is that we do to, to regain your power where you can remember like your safety and your power and we are like good in all of this and that you're not at like the mercy of just life and other people. And you know, it's like looking for all the ways and act and actually that you're like a strong sovereign.
Beautiful person who can figure shit out, you know?
Kyley: And who is [00:42:00] like cherished and loved and connected to your point of connection, right? Like, 'cause sometimes what you also need when you is like someone to sit next to you and be like, I know it does feel really confusing and hard and, you know, um, whatever, right? But I think like, knowing that you are, knowing that you are connected, um, I think it, and like held in community, whether it's spiritual or.
Personal or friend or family like that I think is really, I think that's also really important.
Eva: Yeah. Yeah, I think, I think the noticing of when you're just being in a victim. Mindset is like half the battle, maybe even most of the battle. And then everything else, like we that, you know, that we were just speaking to, I think carries you all the way home. Um. But I think maybe that's why it's even trickier for sometimes people prefer to stay in the victim mode because if they realize that they have power, then it's like, fuck, now I actually have to do something. Yeah. You know?
Kyley: Mm-hmm.
Eva: And so anyway, we don't have to go [00:43:00] into that too deeply. We've talked about that in many IT iterations, but I just want to, I hope like what we can leave people with is just a remembering of their own power, you know?
Kyley: And Okay. I couldn't resist. And re sometimes the, sometimes also surrendering to the fact that. We have all this power and also we are powerless. Also, there are these like energies of life that just happen beyond our fucking control, and they're both true at the same time. And like, and, and the sometimes the release of our victim identity comes in, like really saying, yeah, I know.
It's like totally out of our control and it really sucks. Or it really, or like, yeah, that really awful thing really did happen and we can't, you can't go back and change it, you know? And, and I think it's that, it's letting the simultaneous truth of our cosmic power and our, and our total
Eva: Vulnerable human
Kyley: Yeah.
[00:44:00] And like letting the truth of them coexisting in our body is once again. We have to come back. That we come back to.
Eva: Oh, chef's Kiss. I was like nodding and nodding vigorously. Thank you for Yeah. Bringing that together. And I think it, it, yeah, that's, I think the whole thing about feeling our feelings. It's another version of that. Just being with what is, which is like, sometimes shit is hard and it sucks. And when that happens it's like, what can we do just to, to love ourselves even harder?
'cause ultimately that's what we really want.
Kyley: Yeah.
Eva: Ah,
Kyley: A round of
Eva: yay. Yeah, I'll share 'cause I have something that I think I may have shared with you last week. Um, so, you know, it's like around the holidays. I'm in Taiwan. My brother came back while I was here. So it was the first time that my family, my nuclear family was all together really for like this first time in two years because of a lot of family drama that's been happening and, [00:45:00] and there and.
We all, he was only here for a week, but we spent time together and there was no drama and there was no big explosion. And it was Yes. Not to say that, yeah, that it, I'm not, you know, I'm, I'm open to it being there in the future, but it was such a really nice gift to like. I mean, I'm, when I'm with my family, it can be really hard and I'm kind of on guard 'cause I'm like, oh, I'm always waiting for the other shoe to drop and for somebody to have some sort of meltdown or explosion, and I'm not exempt from that.
Sometimes the meltdown has come from me. You know what I mean? And it's just, it was really nice just to be all together and like. I don't know, enjoying each other's company. Like, what a fucking gift, even if it all explodes again, you know, like, it's like I, it just feels cherished that that moment was there.
So feeling really, really, really, really, really, really grateful. Super
Kyley: I love that. I love that. I love that. Um,[00:46:00]
Eva: What about you my dear Kylie?
Kyley: my joy is also family. Um, specifically last weekend, I got to meet up with my parents and my brother and his wife and his baby, and I am an aunt for the first time and she's six months old. And like, oh, that is like, Nick and I were just talking about how like six months is like peak baby age, you know, like
Eva: Yeah. Oh, it's so nice to welcome a new member of the family, you
Kyley: I know and, um, I just got like lots of time with her and like, I obviously met her a bunch of times, but this felt like the trip that I got the most like, like, like moments to really like connect with her and hang out with her and, um.
Eva: Oh, you're an auntie. There's a special joy that comes
Kyley: know,
Eva: auntie. Oh.
Kyley: I know. It's really funny, like I'm like, I have a niece, but I like have, I keep like basically forget that that makes me an [00:47:00] aunt.
I can't explain that part, but it's like. Um, like I think about how special my aunts to me are to me, and I like, it's like a brain. Like there's this skip that's like, oh yeah, like that's my, like, it's not just that I have the, this sweet baby. It's like I have this, I have this job, you know, and it's like a really special, important role in her life.
And like, oh, how cool. So anyway, I just, um, I just love my little baby niece.
Eva: Welcome baby niece. Oh, yay. All it's nice to have nice family things to report.
Kyley: Yeah, I know. I know.
Eva: Yeah. It's like, huh Um. All right. Loves, thank you so much for being here with us. If you like the show, share it with people. If you know someone who is a victim all the time, maybe you can drop a casual hint to be like, Hey, this episode's really good.
Maybe you should check it out.
Kyley: That won't reinforce their victim identity at all. [00:48:00]
Eva: Alright,
Kyley: All right. Love
Eva: love you.