Ciao! Kyley and Eva discuss Kyley’s recent Italian journey into existential nihilism and pasta-induced bliss.
Ciao! Kyley and Eva discuss Kyley’s recent Italian journey into existential nihilism and pasta-induced bliss.
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Eva: [00:00:00] hey everyone, it's Eva here.
Kyley: and it's Kylie.
Eva: back to Hello Universe.
Kyley: Hello?
Eva: Um, Bojo, how do you say? I don't wanna speak Italian. Yeah. Bojo, no me, that annoying person who comes back from Italy and is just like, oh yeah, I just came back from Italy. I'm gonna speak some Italian.
Kyley: Um, my favorite was Birdie was Great flourish. Uh, some listeners who don't know, she's four years old. Her favorite thing to say was, and she would say it like [00:01:00] that.
Eva: Oh, that's amazing.
Kyley: This is very
Eva: They're all the sass.
Kyley: Yeah. So listeners, I am now back from my two week journey in Italy. Uh, and so that is what we were referencing if you didn't already know. That's what this, this will be the episode of which Kylie discusses her plans to move to Italy.
Eva: I mean, honestly. So I just wanna hear everything. I missed you so much. I thought about you a thousand times. I was really just wishing you like the most joyful, replenishing, nourishing, you know, vacation ever. Cause I think it's so well deserved and yeah, I just wanna know. Spill, I guess spill the beans on how it all went.
Like I, any takeaways, all that stuff.
Kyley: Um, yeah, it was amazing. I highly recommend, um, [00:02:00] so to catch anyone up who doesn't already know. Um, but you can all go on Instagram and look at all the cute pictures of my family cuz I did post a bunch. Highly recommend. Um, we went, we took my kids, my husband and my two kids, we all went to Italy for just shy of two weeks.
We were there for 12 days and I'd never been to Italy. My husband had never been to Europe. Obviously my kids had never been. And the backstory is that my son one day was like, dad, can we go to Italy? And he was basically like, you know what son
Eva: Oh my God,
Kyley: And
Eva: that's awesome.
Kyley: yeah. And Nick never got to travel when he was growing up that just like wasn't part of his like, you know, his family financially and, and, um, and we traveled a lot, but like, we were super broken.
We just went camping all the time, which was great. But um, and it was a moment of like, Wait. Yeah. I really can give, this is an experience that I actually can give my kid, right? And, and, and like experience, like, [00:03:00] you know, we have wanted individually. So anyways, that was the backstory. And so that in and of itself just felt really meaningful and really cool to be like, Hey, we're so, first of all, to be like lucky enough to be in a position that our parents weren't right to like, take our kids on this really like big trip.
And then also, you know, before you have kids, you have all sorts of ideas what you're gonna do. Then the kids show up and you're like, only remind everyone's in my bed, bed forever. Or like, whatever the thing is, right?
Eva: Yeah. Or you can't pee alone, that kind of
Kyley: yeah, no, never, never, never. Um, the number of times, guys, I have shouted, can I just poop in privacy?
Eva: Yeah. You whenever Mom
Kyley: Yeah. It is not a small number. So we have all these ideas about like what uh, you're gonna do when your kids arrive. And then, and one of ours was definitely that we wanted to be a family that traveled with our kids and that we wanted to like go out to restaurants with our kids and we wanted to like [00:04:00] have a life that felt adventurous and where our kids, you know, rolled with things.
Um, you know, then we had a two year pandemic. Obviously that didn't happen and it just felt really, really amazing to like actually get to live this thing that we set as an intention, right? And have it be really how we're like walking through the world with our kids. Um, and you are so great, Eva. They were so, like Nick and I both had a bunch of shocks before we went.
It was like, there's gonna be jet lag, there's gonna be like language stuff. Birdie sometimes gets kind of anxiety about like she's a little bit of a homebody. Desi's a really high energy kid. Like everyone was gonna have a reasoning why way. This was like, you know, intense and, we were really committed to just like, we're gonna roll with it, we're gonna be flexible.
We're gonna have like, not have two [00:05:00] specific of expectations. They were so great. It was so much fun. It was like so great to be in Italy. And also it was like just genuinely so great to all be together and like as a family.
Eva: Yeah. And explore together. And I mean, so when you say they're so great, I mean, I'm assuming you mean like. There's a word in Chinese that's so funny. That's no English equivalent of it, but it's like in Chinese you say which means like you are really well behaved, like really good. But I feel like that sounds, I don't know, that doesn't sound
Kyley: Yeah, it, it was I think less that they were well behaved, although they were, but more like, more like they were just down for the experience
Eva: Yeah. Yeah.
Kyley: like when we had to rally as a family, like they rallied. There was one point, the flight home was just like a complete disaster. Like one, it was shitty thing after another, and I got, I was just like furious.
It was also like I was leaving and I was like really sad to [00:06:00] be leaving and so I was like extra pissed at Air Lingus, and, and, and Desi goes, Mom and I was like, I said one more like, cause like I was, guys, I'm really sorry. Like I'm just being really bitchy or I didn't say bitchy, but I was just like, I'm really sorry, I'm like being really cranky and, and like, you know, blah blah.
And he goes, oh mom, usually you're the one who's saying enjoy the little thanks.
Eva: Oh
Kyley: And it was like this, just this like sweet little woman of like, yes, that, yes, thank you. Thank you for that reminder. Right. So it was like, it was like,
Eva: really sweet.
Kyley: it was really sweet and I was like, okay, I'm not totally screaming them up.
But it was so, it was like, they were really well behaved in terms of like, we could go out to eat and they, we had like coloring books for them and they were just like down to have conversations with us and they got along really well together and they rallied when we needed them to rally. But they also just like, were adaptable and were team players and I don't know, it just felt like we were,
Eva: I curious, what do you think that was about? Because I'm wondering if that was because [00:07:00] of the, because this, because this experience was special, you know, is like, they could sense that, I don't know. It's like this idea of like my, I guess my questions are one, it sounds like.
They had fun. Like, I went on, did they have fun? Did they, was this cool for them? Were they like, oh, like I
Kyley: Oh my God. They loved it. They
Eva: this is new. Like all everything's new. Right. And then also just a sense of like, there's something about it. I mean, family vacations can be a fucking disaster. Like they can be hell on earth, but there's also sometimes what's really great where, yeah, like you said, like, I don't mean like they're on their best behavior, but it is like, Hey, we're doing this special thing together.
So, and I, and there's an appreciation of that.
Kyley: Yes, I think so. Nick has introduced this language to our family. And even when it was just the two of us, about us being on the same team, right? And when, when, when we were younger, we would get in a fight. Nick would be like, remember that I'm on your team. It would be [00:08:00] like a thing that he would say to me, which is,
Eva: so sweet.
Kyley: I know.
And so we use that. I use that language a lot now. And I constantly say like to Nick, like, I'm so glad you gave our family this language. Because to me, being on, like being on a team means like we look at the problem together, right? And so I gave our, our kids a lot of pep talks that were like, we, there are gonna be days where we, one of us is hungry or tired or doesn't feel good and like we're gonna have to be on, on a team because we can fix the problem together much easier if we're all on the same team.
But if we turn on each other and just start fighting cuz we're hungry, like it's gonna suck. And so we have to be on the same team. And um, that is just like really helpful framing. Um, and. And, um, so I think we like really employed that a bunch of times. Cause it was not like there were to, there were meltdowns, right?
Like, don't get me wrong, there were plenty. But it was like we kept [00:09:00] coming back to this place of like, no, but we're gonna, what does it look like in this moment for us to be on the same team? Which sometimes at one point looked like everyone went upstairs on the balcony and I sat downstairs by myself for 20 minutes,
Eva: Uhhuh. Uhhuh.
Kyley: right?
Um, but also when you are a little kid, like four and six, all you really want is your parents to just like, play with you all the time.
Eva: Yeah,
Kyley: You know? Like that's like really, like they were so jazzed to be in a new country, being in this like, new adventure and like, they love pasta and we had gelato every day, right?
Like, so there was like tons of like fun things for them. And also all you want when you're a kid is that you get to be like in the like, In your parents' loving energy as much as possible. And because we were on vacation, we were in a great mood, right? So we didn't have that like cranky, overstimulated thing the same way that you get at home.
And so I think there [00:10:00] were, there's one moment. The very last day of vacation we're in this town called Amalfi of the Amalfi Coast. And, um, and we're in this little gift shop, and it's, it's even, we've already had our dinner. We're on the way to get gelato, and we're talking to the shopkeeper. And Desi has put on these like sunglasses.
There's these like lime green women's sunglasses, and he's standing in the dressing room, like dancing by himself for like seven minutes the whole time we talked to the shopkeeper, and Birdie has bought, we bought birdie, this stuffed mermaid. And so she's telling the shopkeeper everything about this mermaid that she possibly could.
And Desi is just literally for like seven minutes, just like dancing, dancing, dancing, dancing, watching himself in the mirror,
Eva: Yes.
Kyley: poses.
Eva: Oh my God.
Kyley: And the secret that I know watching this is that he often feels insecure dancing.
Eva: Oh.
Kyley: He regularly has experiences, especially we're like out in public where he's like, he has that sense of like, I don't, I [00:11:00] don't like look at me.
Right. Like, and, and, um, and we don't, I don't like make a big deal about it. Right. Because that's just like a, like my husband's like that, right? Like, he's not, like, he's not gonna be the first person on the dance floor, but he'll get on the dance floor and then we'll have a great time. Right? and there was something about like, yeah, we have all been on vacation for two weeks and we have all been like loving each other and like playing and relaxing and taking care of each other.
And so there's not a care in the world. And so yeah, you're just dancing and dancing. Like, it just, I just, it was like, it's just like something, it was this moment. It was this example of how like something peeled off of all of us. You know what I mean?
Eva: It's like what? It's like what I'm hearing you say is like, oh, this is what is possible when you are like in a good mood and you're. You're relaxed and you're happy and you're joyful. It's like there's a little bit more ease and lightness and you're just [00:12:00] fun. I'm like, your whole, ugh. I mean, it kind of makes me, it's not sad, but it's like, oh yeah, people need to go on vacation more.
And also, it's such a thing in our culture to just n normalize, yeah. Work and being overworked and all that stuff, but
Kyley: And then we go on vacation so
Eva: could we all be if we were all on vacation mode all the time? We'd be amazing. We'd be awesome. Yeah.
Kyley: And, and, and then because we go on vacation infrequently. Then it can, there can be so much expectation and pressure on it to like be good to Right. And that was, that I think is one of the things that I'm most proud of for myself, because I totally could have gone into this.
And I am someone who struggles sometimes with like, too high of expectations and or, or, or just very specific expectations. And I, and I feel like I, um, yeah, just like I'm really proud of myself and I was like, I don't know what it's gonna be and that, and it's, but it's gonna be great.
Eva: Yeah. Yeah, yeah.
Kyley: So, [00:13:00] um, yeah.
Eva: Okay. So that's cool. Wait, hold on. Can I just ask, this is like, I mean, people were venting a little bit. It doesn't really matter, but like, you know, I wanna ask just about basic Italy stuff. Like what was your favorite thing about
Kyley: Uhhuh.
Eva: Um, what did you eat? Like Yeah,
Kyley: did you eat? Yes.
Eva: So,
Kyley: Oh my God. Des he said the cutest thing earlier on the trip. He goes, don't think it's possible to have a bad meal in Italy.
Eva: oh my God, what a smart kid.
Kyley: I know, I know.
Eva: yeah, for, for podcast listeners, I should say. So I spent like, I don't know, like 10 months in Europe. I did a study abroad in, in Italy, in Rome. And then I like traveled and did whiffing and worked on farms for months after that. Um, And so I know that I love Italy, but I was so drunk basically the whole time on drinking.
I think I basically drank two ball. I remember drinking two balls of wine a night and we would just like drink wine and walk around these like gorgeous, ridiculous [00:14:00] fountains. And I gained like 20 pounds or something cause I just like ate and ate like the cheese and the bread and all of that was so good.
But the thing is, I don't actually remember a lot of Italy. That's a lie. I'm like, tell me what your perspective of Italy is.
Kyley: Slightly different perspective. Um, although also yes to the cheese and bread and, um, Yeah, we, and my husband loves food and like, loves like, like he's just really great at researching restaurants. Like, that instantly overwhelms me, but he's like really good at like, no, we're gonna go and we're gonna have like great fucking food.
And so he had thoroughly researched all options the whole time we went out. We had,
Eva: That's my boy. That's like what I would do too.
Kyley: had one bad meal and Nick was like, I'm not gonna, you know, not to say anything, but this was the only restaurant that I didn't research beforehand.
Eva: oh God. A guy of my own heart. That's how I,
Kyley: yes. Well, as I said, many times you and Nick share many, many things. So, um, okay. So we [00:15:00] went to three times, we went to Sorento, we went to, uh, pesto and we went to pre, so in and around the Amalfi coast. Um, which is like for listeners who don't know, like along the Mediterranean Sea. Um,
Eva: very beautiful, picturesque like town
Kyley: those.
Eva: along the, the mountain, ocean side.
Kyley: Right, right. So there's like pictures you've seen of like cliffs, like, like, like town, like beachside towns built into the side of cliffs. Like that's the Aul coast and it isn't wild. It's so incredibly gorgeous. Did you go down that way when you were there?
Eva: Yes, I did. And again, it's also fuzzy, but like I think I have a memory of an old Italian because there's all these stairs, right. And I think, I just remember an old Italian woman in high heels walking up these stairs and me being like, what the fuck? Like I, I was like backpacking and exhausted and she's like, beating me up this.
I'm like, okay, lady.
Kyley: Yeah. For context, like we walked [00:16:00] probably on average like seven miles a day. Cause we like, you know, your Nick's phone like kept track, which a plus to birdie.
Eva: Yeah, I was gonna say that's a, she walked or
Kyley: she did, she did. She was a champ. And also, In, in particularly in the town pre, which is like one of the town we stayed in that is the most like, built into the side of a cliff.
Like we walked on average 30 flights of stairs a day when we
Eva: my God. Oh my God.
Kyley: And there was one, there was one set of stairs in particular. There was like so steep, like I was tired going up it right and, and, and birdie's holding Nick's hand. And she gets like five steps up and she's just like, no, I'm done. And so we basically like Rocky chanting her up. We were like, birdie, birdie.
And there was this like moment, it was so cute. So we were like standing at the top of the steps and I'm, and I'm Desing, I were at the top like chanting, cheering her on. And I see the moment that she decides like I'm gonna do this. And she like, loves [00:17:00] that we're all cheering her on and she gets this like aor of a little smile and starts like four year old style hopping it up.
Eva: That's really cool.
Kyley: It was really cool. It was really cool. Um, the thing that I love the most was just fucking relaxing. Like really? Like there was this one moment that I think honestly feels like spiritually seared into my heart. Like it feels like, like I imagine like movie style, like at the end of your life you get like a, like, you know, flashback, like a sea, like a montage of flashbacks.
Like this is in the montage right this moment. think about that a lot. Do you ever think
Eva: No, I don't actually.
Kyley: Oh, okay. Yeah. Yeah. Like I'm like, is I, I'm like, will this be in the
Eva: Yeah. I love that. I just think I have such a terrible memory that I can't imagine, like, I just assume that I'm not gonna remember, but I know that that's not true
Kyley: Sometimes I just, oh, go ahead. I'm interrupting you. Sorry.
Eva: well, I, meditation has showed me that you're, you fucking remember [00:18:00] everything. Like it's in just like the memories that you think that are not there.
Like, they're there. They're definitely there. They're just, you can't necessarily always access them.
Kyley: Oh, can you say more of thought? That's so fascinating.
Eva: Oh yeah. Just that, like when I go to these like, you know, meditation retreats, um, I'll have like, I'll sit there for a long time and I'll have like a very detailed memory of like the lyrics of a song that I didn't even know. I knew, like, like just you, you remember everything. It's insane. Your brain and your body, I guess whatever your cells like.
You just know, so like you can remember the dialogue from like a Saved by the Bell episode that you have no conscious recollection of. You'll remember a conversation that you had with like some teacher that you didn't even know you remembered. You know what I mean? Like it's all there.
Kyley: That is, and when you're in a meditation, will this just like float
Eva: It just fucking comes in and you're like, yep. And you're like, what the heck? And it's really, it's like watching TV sometimes. And then you kinda just let it be there and then you like go back to focusing on your breath.
Kyley: Oh, that is so fucking cool.
Eva: It can be really [00:19:00] annoying
Kyley: Yeah. I mean, I'm
Eva: distracting.
Kyley: yes, but I like have no idea. That's fascinating. Yeah. I will sometimes. I, I basically said there's, there's just, so, okay. When I was getting married, my dad very sweetly, we were like standing at the end of like my ro a row of people about to like walk down the aisle and my dad turned to me and basically said like, like, I, I want you to step aside a couple of times tonight and just like, observe and like, like soak in this experience and like, like basically like what, what, what I took from that advice, which is really, really
Eva: I was gonna say like, go dad. Good
Kyley: Yeah. Like, was basically like give yourself moments where you decide to make a memory. And I did, and I can like would, there's like a couple of modes where I would just like put my hand, I would just like stop and soak and almost like, almost like take a like mini video. I was like, okay, this, this I've like cataloged.[00:20:00]
Eva: I need to, I'm writing this down because I think I could do more of that. I think there's some, there's something so beautiful about the intentionality of that. I mean, in a way it's about like being present, but also it's like being present and also being like, I'm going to set the intention to really remember this.
Kyley: And, and it's not, it's not a, it's not about like clinging and like the pressure to be like, I have to remember this, which I've also done, but it's more about just like, like settling in and Yeah. It's like this intention of like, I'm, I'm holding. I'm like, I, I don't, I can't really describe it in language fully, but it is about this intentionality of like, I'm implanting this in.
Eva: mm. Yeah. And you're, and you're like pointing at your heart for
Kyley: yeah. I, yeah. Implanting her.
Eva: But I will also say, there's also something that I'm hearing you say, like also just enjoying it. It's like you're stepping back and you're like, oh, I'm going to just like take it in and enjoy this.
Kyley: yeah, yeah. It's like, it's like, it's like moments where like, for. 10 seconds, I [00:21:00] step to the side and observe my own experience and kind of like I'm intentional about savoring it. And it's, it's that, it's like I've become the watcher for a second. Right? And, and then that also helps me savor it and implant it a little bit.
This is funny. I've never spoken this out loud.
Eva: Yeah, but I'm, I'm actually really, I am like writing this down because I think this is what's beautiful about this is like, it can be done at the most, you know, crucial times. Not crucial, but the big moments, like a wedding. And, but you could say you could do this for a lot of life, you know,
Kyley: Yeah.
Eva: because I've been thinking a lot about how, like, you know, when I'm 60 I'm gonna wish I was here now at 39 at 40, and I could, I could, yeah.
I, there's part of me that like wants to step back and be like, oh, just savor this right
Kyley: Yeah. Yeah. I had this like really, um, I had this like big moment that I was sharing with my therapist a couple months ago and [00:22:00] he like reflected this back to me again, was like, savor this, like this, this, this moment of like relief. And I was like really proud of myself about something. And he was just like, SI like savor this.
Like, right. Like basically like don't get off the call and go like, you know, pick up your phone. Like, let yourself soak this up. And I, um, and um, and so there was this one moment on vacation where in this time called Pesa, which I will talk about more on the show because I had actually like this like crazy spiritual experience all the way there, which you got a little bit of a voice note about.
Eva: Yes. Yes. That's what I wanna hear about. Yes. But it's, sorry. Mm-hmm.
Kyley: But before that happened, You were in this town, so this is this like sleepy, it's like the town is, um, was this a very sleepy town? It has like, kinda like wine country vibes. Like it's not wine country, but it just has that kind of like, uh, like it's just sleepy. I don't know how else to describe it, but, and that the, the, um, the, the, the, and maybe I should say that the place we were staying, the, like [00:23:00] the hotel had wine country vibes.
So it was like this old Dukes hunting lodge that now is a hotel. I basically felt like I was living inside a Jane Austin novel, which we all know I loved. And, um, there was this, the, the only thing to do there, the beach is like 20 minutes away and then we were walking distance. You walked down this little street and they were like, Seven or eight restaurants all next to each other, all really little, all with their outdoor patios and then their, like indoor seating.
And then on the opposite of the street is just like this growth. There's an old, old, old, old wall, like thousands of years old and like grass and trees and shit going all over it. And then you go around the corner and you, and it, like, it's a pretty touristy street. Um, and on that street, you, there's all of these, um, temple, there's like Greek grins, ancient Greek grins, and there's um, or Roman, there's these like three giant temples that were to Athena and two that they think were tahara.[00:24:00]
And, um, And that's like the main thing to do there. So people come like, there was like a field trip there one day, you know what I mean? It's like that kind of a place, right? And so people come for like a day, but we stayed there for, we actually stayed there for four days because we just, I don't know, it felt the, it just felt like it called to us.
And also it was one of when somebody's our favorite place to stay because it was just so chill and the grounds were beautiful and my kids just like, honestly like played Legos on the, like on the table outside in the yard all day, right? It was just like, I read my book,
Eva: Yeah. So you, you were, it's like actual vacation, like restful, which is, cause I think there's very, there's, there's traveling and then there's a vacation. And it sounds like you did a little bit of both. But I think there's, when I think of traveling, it's like, sometimes it's fucking exhausting. It's like you're like backpacking from one seat to the other, or, or you know, you just got this itinerary where you're, you're not actually resting and you're sightseeing and you're doing all the touristy [00:25:00] things and blah, blah, blah, blah, blah.
And so, I. Um, yeah. Anyway, and I think sometimes it's good to know what you're really going for because sometimes you won't just wanna go and rest.
Kyley: Oh yeah. Nick and I always have a conversation before any trip where we say like, what is our intention? Like, we have, we actually explicitly discuss like, what are the vibes that we're seeking on this trip? Um, but also your girl is, is a tourist. Like I don't want a vacation where I am not resting. I am not, I went on one trip once to Ireland where we went to a different city or town every single day and I was so fucking exhausted and like fried at the end that I was like, never again.
Like, take me to one place only if that's what I have to do. But I am not here for like, the mad. And I was like 23 when that happened. So like by the time now that I'm 38, I am like, oh no, we are only here for slow.
Eva: Yeah. I think I'm a mix. I'm a mixture. Sometimes I'm like, I can't miss the thing. Like I feel like I have to see all the things and I, that can [00:26:00] be exhausting. I do things and, and also, but I also just like wanna go to the beach and lie down and do nothing for day. Yeah.
Kyley: I mean, I wanna see things like, for me it's like I, when I travel, I wanna experience, like this is for me, I wanna, I want an experience and I know that if I'm too caught up in trying to see all the things, I won't actually have an experience. But also if I'm like in total sloth mode, That's a different kind of, I mean, right.
Like you go to like an all-inclusive whatever, that can be really fun. But like, I'm not having a cultural experience and so my, like, ideal is a cultural experience, but it has, it has to be, I have to be able to be present and so I, it has to be restful.
Eva: love that. Yeah. Yeah, yeah,
Kyley: Um, okay. So anyways, at this moment I'm sitting in Pem and the restaurants aren't open yet.
Cause the restaurants went home until seven, which we had a few hangry moments with my kids
Eva: Of course.
Kyley: where we're sitting in the, sitting in this wine bar outside and my kids are both like very intently coloring, like so happy. And they're, they don't even need to [00:27:00] talk to us. We have this delicious cheeseboard where the guy brought it out and he was like, start, he like, we got instructions like, you know, it's a good cheeseboard when they give you instructions on where to start and where to end.
Eva: yeah.
Kyley: And I have a glass of wine and my husband has his drink and like the sun is setting. And I just, was like, this is the most perfect. This is, this is the most, this is perfection.
Eva: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
Kyley: There isn't this there, this is peak existing right here, right now. There is nothing better than this.
Eva: It's, yeah. One say it's, it's one form, one way in which it peak existence, and I think a lot of those exist in all it, like that kind of experience exists in so many different ways.
Kyley: Mm,
Eva: Would you not agree?
Kyley: Yes. I think that's true. I think, I think specifically what I was receiving in that moment is like I am, I am constantly chasing, right? Like that is just in my nature to be like [00:28:00] ambitious and a seeker. If for any use astrology, I have an Aries moon, so for all that I'm like slow Taurus. I have this like fiery like drive and it's allowed me to do and create and experience a lot of things and it helps me be like bold and adventurous and take risks that don't feel like risks. And also it can be really fucking exhausting because it gi I constantly am plagued by this sense of like getting, of, like getting somewhere, meaning I constantly have this sense of not being there yet.
Eva: what you're saying. Yeah.
Kyley: And it was this moment of like, you're fucking here
Eva: yeah. And content contentness is what I'm hearing. Yeah. And then, you know, there's a good content and bad content, like I'm talking good content.
Kyley: Is there a bad content?
Eva: Well, I think sometimes it can have the meaning of like, oh, you're, um, uh, what's the word? I'm pla No, not placating. You're where you're, uh, [00:29:00] yeah. Isn't there bad content where you're like, I'm just content there, but like, you're, you're not like status quo, like you're not going for more because you're kind of, what is the word for it?
Kyley: Oh, like a, like kind of a settling,
Eva: Yes.
Kyley: like a smallness.
Eva: Yes. Yeah, yeah.
Kyley: Yes. Yeah, yeah. Yeah. That's fair. I, to me, content is like a very rich. Content and like peace are so connected for me. Um, yeah. And it's like inte, I have intellectually had a lot of like a lot of intellectual moments of like, you're here pal. Like there's nowhere else to go.
Right. Whether it's just because there's literally nowhere else to go. Or also because like, this is what you want, you're living what you want. Right. And also that moment, honestly, that moment feels like some kind of profound, like brutal opening turning point type thing because that moment felt like my body felt,
Eva: Mm.
Kyley: we're here.
[00:30:00] There's nowhere else to go. Right? Or like, I don't know. But with some, so I'm just like in some deep way all of a sudden I like could feel the truth of like, this is it, man.
Eva: Mm. Yeah.
Kyley: Um,
Eva: Oh, so beautiful. Yeah. And yes, and also I think like that's the gift of rest too. Like I feel like it's all connected, you know, like it was. Yes, the circumstance that you were under, but I also think it, I don't know. I'm, I'm feeling all these feelings right now, unexpectedly, this feeling of like, I, I wish for everybody deep rest because I think when we're like rested, that's when we can actually, um, access and be available for that sense of contentment that you're talking about.
It's like, I'm safe and it's all good, and our perspective changes, you know, it's, we're not like so narrowed in our thinking, and I think that's like I, a, a human right, that I [00:31:00] would, you know, that I want for everybody, myself included.
Kyley: yes. Uh, yes. I'm so glad you're saying that because like, so a couple of things. One, this moment, halfway through my vacation. Right. So it's like the first, like the first half, like the first half of the vacation. Like, I had like very specific moments of like being like agitated and stressed and anxious.
Right. Like still having a great time and being present. Right. But like, it's like, it was like a, it, it's like I had to like soften into this moment and it was a week in. Right. That was the incredible thing of being able to go away for so long, which is like such a fucking luxury is like, normally that would be the point that I would be leaving to go back home.
Eva: love you. Oh yeah. Mm-hmm.
Kyley: And this was the moment of like, oh, this is actually like, this is actually when the rest [00:32:00] begins.
Eva: Yeah. And that's cool cuz that's how long your body needed and someone else, someone else's body might need two weeks before they like, or three weeks or a fucking month, you know, like depending on where they're coming from until they can finally like relax. So I think you're making a really good point though.
It's like it takes time sometimes and
Kyley: Yeah, because
Eva: Yeah.
Kyley: yeah, like I have a good friend who has taken the, like, leave from work and I was checking in on her and, and she was like, I'm trying to learn how to rest. It turns out it's hard, right. Um, and I think one of the things that I feel like really, really, really grateful about and I like keep getting kind of emotional about, it's like, as listeners know, you know, I, I have been on, I feel like I have found this like really, really, really huge journey for a while now around this like deep work of like safety and, um, [00:33:00] you just, I, I have been on a journey of excavating and tending to deep inner wounds for a hot second and. It has all been in service. I mean, it's been in service of lots of things, but it's like, um, and it was kicked off after Desi was born and then it was kicked off louder, um, after Birdie was born, like right. My kids have been this huge driver in like, there's a different way that you can be existing Kylie.
So like, I don't, it's like, it's like the way that you seek something that you don't know and you know, at the same time. Right? And so this isn't this like driver to like do this deep inner work and, and tend to these gremlins and figure out how the hell to love myself and figure out how the hell to slow down.
And, and, and I, for a while now, like maybe even since the fall, I've had this feeling of being on the precipice of some [00:34:00] kind of breakthrough, right? Of like feeling like there's some. There's some like point of arrival, there's some, like, there's some breakthrough, there's some, this all feels like hard to fully describe, but I, I feel basically like I have been on this long, long journey of rewiring my insides and this vacation was the point of like, yeah, you did it.
You know, not that like, not like quote unquote, the work is done. Right. Not that there's not like continual, but like this kind of,
Eva: Like completion.
Kyley: yeah, like a, it felt like a, like, like some kind of, um, like graduation, you know, into a new cycle, into a new chapter in which I will continue to evolve and continue to evolve all the things, but like this thing, this like seeking of. Basically an ability to trust that I'm [00:35:00] safe and taken care of in life and by the universe, and therefore can actually fucking like, and enjoy and be present in my life.
Like, Hey, you, you, you got it. You're here so you can be present. And, and I, this feels really like, in some ways deep in under language. And so I don't know how much this will totally make sense, but, um, but I have had this feeling for a while of being like, like I said, like on the precipice of something and also been like mad that I'm like, I can feel this like emotional and spiritual kind of quote unquote break and where, and like, what am I missing?
Right? And what I was quote unquote missing was like that I needed to just stop
Eva: Hmm. Well that's so interesting. That's so interesting. Like, of course that was a fucking answer, which is also annoying. Not annoying, but it's like, that's probably not the first thing we would've, well actually, part of me is like, that's of course the first thing we should have gone [00:36:00] to because like stillness or pause or presence or stress, like is usually like a big piece of the medicine.
But at the same time our brain goes, no, no, no, but like, Like, was there something else I was supposed to do or learn or experience? I don't know. You know?
Kyley: Also, really, we went for that 30 minute walk in the woods. Wasn't that, wasn't that enough
Eva: Yeah.
Kyley: right? Like, are we done? We got to do, have you seen the size of this laundry pile? You know,
Eva: Yeah.
Kyley: you know.
Eva: I mean, I'm not gonna, it's really interesting hearing you talk about, this is making me think about vacation. Like, it makes me wanna go on vacation and, and it's making me think about the, I think I travel a fair bit. I go back home to Taiwan, I just like, you know, like whatever, like I take time off, but I hear you're talking about something different, which is
Kyley: Hmm.
Eva: I'm going somewhere and then I'm still busy and it's not a pause, it's not a stop.
It's just a different version of my life. [00:37:00] Um, and you're talking about like, oh, taking time. Like really signing off, kind of, you know, I. Yeah. And
Kyley: making the whole, go
Eva: no, no, go ahead. Yeah. What you were saying.
Kyley: Take, really taking time off and making the whole point of the time off. Pleasure.
Eva: Yeah. Yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes. Oh, pleasure. And also, but I'm also like, there's, there's, there's different kinds of medicine. There's, there's a slowdown medicine, so it's like taking time off and also slowing down and a pleasure cuz I could easily be like, I'm gonna go to New York and, and turn off.
And, but I could still that be spending that time, like running around doing a 50 million things because I love, because I love going to the museums and then I wanna go to the film form and then I wanna go like, to this park and, you know, it's like, it is a. I'm not saying all vacations need to be this week, but I'm hearing that [00:38:00] that was very be beneficial for you, and I'm sure it's very beneficial for a lot of people.
And also, how rare is that? Because, because sometimes we go on vacation and we're not even resting. Or like you said, before we even get to rest, we have to go home.
Kyley: yeah, yeah. Um,
Eva: we're not even talking about vacation, we're talking about rest now. I'm just talking about rest. It's like I
Kyley: do you create, right? Yeah. And how do you create, like, like I, I wouldn't, I, how do you create rest in your regular everyday life that's like really deep? Like, you, you, you, maybe you can't, you know what I mean? Like, my, my feeling, I like come back, I was like joking. I sent a message to Liz and I was like, my, I, I only wanna read my book for like, that's, I have no motivation to do anything other than reading my book.
It's kinda causing a problem because I, I feel, still feel like I'm in like southern Italy vibes, you know? But like, it's like how do you create that you [00:39:00] like? Cause it to me feels like very like somatic, right? It feels like I in my own body didn't know how to slow down. Like, I need it. I mean, like, what a.
What an incredible luxury. I feel. I feel like two things. I feel like this incredible gift of this space to be like, this is the slowdown that you have been seeking. And also my ability to actually slow down and be so present and sink so deeply into the vacation was be, was because of everything that happened leading up to it.
Right. The years of like really tending to these deeper, right. Because just listeners are like, that is like my, I have never been someone who can be slow. Right. Like, that's always a thing that's actually really hard for me. Um,
Eva: So you're saying because of all, like the quote unquote work or whatever we wanna call it, like, uh, Healing. There's another word which is, uh,
Kyley: Like the journey.
Eva: Yeah. The journey and like, yeah. Yeah. The journey. [00:40:00] Um, it allowed you to, to fall deep into rest this time is what you mean.
Kyley: Yeah. So it's like, it's like, It was like a, like almost like a capstone of all of the past time ever, many years. And also like the very thing I needed to actually like integrate and realize the work that I've been doing for all these years.
Eva: Ugh. Yeah. But I mean, I think you're asking a very big question and I'm like, I'm really stuck on this. I'm like, I don't know. Cause it's like I could take time off and go on, like, whatever, an ayahuasca retreat or something. I've never done ayahuasca, but Sure. That's on my, like, that's on my
Kyley: That's on the bucket list? Yeah.
Eva: day.
Yeah. One day. But that's not a vaca, you know, that's still different. It's like you're,
Kyley: That is not a vacation.
Eva: a, it's not a vacation. And I think what this is, you know, it just makes me what, why I'm so like, Worked up about this is because it's so hard to take that time off in our lives. Like our society isn't built for that.
So that's why we have all these memes, right? That are [00:41:00] like, you know, I'm not, you know, the memes about how, how we're not supposed to be at work. We're actually supposed to be like, melting into the soil with, with the, so with the, with the mushrooms. Like there's something about that, that we're all seeking and it's hard to, I don't know.
Your question is how do we f I think it's a good question. How do you find rest if in your everyday life, if you can't do the thing where you're removing yourself from your everyday situation for weeks at a time so that you can rest and, and so that, you know, to enjoy that pleasure filled rest that you're talking about, you know?
Kyley: Yeah. Yes. And you can't just scoop yourself out of your everyday life and expect to change everything. Right? Because it's like, if you are, it, it because the, the, it can, the, it can only reflect what's already in. Do you know what I'm trying to
Eva: Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. That's, yes, that too. Yes. It's not gonna, yep, I to agreed because Yeah, cuz you could also be, this is unfortunately [00:42:00] the plight of so many people is that they go on vacation, like you're saying, they can't even fucking chill out and relax. It's really hard for them, understandably. Um, and yeah, I remember Conan O'Brien talking about this, like, you know, Conan O'Brien's, super successful, smart guy.
He's like, I can't fucking go on vacation. I hate going on vacation cuz it makes me anxious because I just cannot, I just freak out like, cuz it's too still and I have to like, keep going, you know, cuz he's so successful. And I think that's the story of like a lot of probably, you know, hard whatever, hardworking or workaholics or whatever.
And so there's also an inner journey of bringing yourself from that indoctrination so that you can. Experience the gifts of what ha like who, who you are and how you are when you're rested. Yeah.
Kyley: Yeah. Yeah. I feel like I've, like, like I use, keep using the chapter metaphor. Like I feel like that's the i, the page I turned over. Right. This [00:43:00] chapter was like, what if we rested
Eva: hmm. That's huge.
Kyley: I think that's really new. Like, that is new energy for me. Right? That is not a thing that I, that's really new energy for me.
So,
Eva: As a Taurus who just had your birthday a couple days ago, maybe this is like you diving deeper into this luxurious Taurus energy.
Kyley: That's, I mean, really, I, I remember we had a guest early in the podcast, Colin Bidell, who's, this is one of my favorite episodes. Y'all should go back and listen to it. Um, who is also a big deal and was like our biggest deal guest at the time for a long time. And I didn't know that when I invited him on the show cuz I was just casually Ha DMing. I invited him on our show.
Eva: awesome. Yeah. Go back and he's, he's just like a fun, he's
Kyley: Ah,
Eva: the way that he talks, I don't know how he does
Kyley: great. He's the queer, queer Cosmos is his Instagram h handle. Anyway, he said something on that show that I've always [00:44:00] appreciated, which is that he offered this perspective that like, Like about growing into becoming your sun sign. Right. Because I was sharing, like, I've always felt like I resonated more with being an Aries moon than with being a Taurus Sun for this very reason of like slow is painful, has has historically been the thing that I avoided at all costs.
And I remember him speaking to like, yeah, you, you grow into it, right? The being of your sunshine, um, as you like, become more fully yourself basically. And that always landed with me and I, I thought of that conversation on this vacation and
Eva: Oh wow.
Kyley: this is my tourist queen era everybody. So watch out.
Eva: Yeah. Yeah. And you know, like that's a good thing for all of us, you know, when you can share that Taurus energy.
Kyley: Yeah.
Eva: Okay, so we've been talking for a while now. Do we have time to talk about these ruins or is that
Kyley: Yes,
Eva: Let's get into that.
Kyley: yes. I know this is like, this is actually the thing that I was [00:45:00] most excited in some ways to come back to you about. Okay, so Eva gets a voice note for me on the minimum of vacation. I'm actually dying to know what you thought about it, cause I didn't get to listen to your response yet. As we discussed, it's basically me being like, oh hey, so vacation is awesome and also everything is meaningless and I'm having a minor existential crisis, but the food's great. Talk to you later. Bye.
Eva: Yeah. Yeah. But, well, I will say, my takeaway from your message is that it's a beautiful existential crisis. It was like, it wasn't like, oh, I'm panicking. It's like, oh, I'm seeing the truth. Reality.
Kyley: Yeah, it was many things. It kind of took a dark turn at one point, but we recovered
Eva: Ok. Ok.
Kyley: actually like right after I say you, that voice. Okay. So for context for everybody, so this town pest. Uh, was, uh, where these ancient ruins are, right? When my husband was telling me different, he, basically what we planned on this trip is that he was like, okay, here's a couple towns.
Pick one [00:46:00] was basically the vibe. So he gave, he was like, we go to this town, Peston, or a couple others. And as soon as he mentioned this town, Peston, I had this like full body reaction. And I was like, that one, I don't know anything about it, but that one. And I trust that shit as you all know. And so pesto is, um, uh, it's one of these ancient ruins, right?
And so I at the time thought like, okay, these goddesses have something to say to me. Cool hair. I always have kind of had a grudge against you for some domesticity related. So like, let's do it. Let's hang out with Harold. What do you got for me? That's kind of what I thought. Get there. And I have this beautiful experience that I shared earlier of like, you're here, there's nowhere else to go.
You've arrived. And then the next morning we wake up and we walk. We like actually go for a walk to these ruins. And they're obviously super, oh, the day before we went to Pompe too, which was also really cool. So we've been in the, like, you know, when we stood in, in, um, in Pompe, we stood in the ruins of a temple to [00:47:00] Apollo.
That was a 6,000 year old temple, right? So that was like the day before. So we're in a lot of these like ancient temple vibes. And obviously like I'm an American. I have lived in America my whole life. Like I live in the old part of America, right? Things are like 300 years,
Eva: Yeah. Yeah.
Kyley: you know what I mean? Like, um, so, um, we, I can't even explain how or when this arrived, but at some point it was like the temples were like, yeah, here's our medicine.
And it's not from the, like there's, this is not the goddess medicine, it's the temple medicine. And the temple medicine is, look at how grand we were. People came in here and worshiped. For thousands of years, and we are turning into rubble, beautiful rubble, right? Like we are exquisite and excellent and mighty.
And also we are nothing. You are nothing. [00:48:00] Everything is nothing. There is no meaning. Like, and it was, there is it was this, like I will have, I will have this experience sometimes of like, like a, like a, like, like a receiving or an activation or like a wisdom that just kinda like shows up from like bubbles up within.
I can't fully describe it, but I don't, I'm curious if, uh, listeners have this experience, if you have this experience, but it's like, it's like, This new way of being or knowing. Just I'm doing a lot of moving my hand upwards toward like, like,
Eva: Into your stomach. Yeah. Mm-hmm.
Kyley: my heart. Like something just like rises up and it's like, you know this now, right?
Like a flower kind of blossoming inside of me. This is like, this is the truth. This is, this is your truth. Now you, this is a thing that you now know to be true and therefore you move according to knowing this. And I've had this experience a couple of other times, and it was one of those, it was like, oh, like [00:49:00] everything, everything just turns to dust and, and like, not everything is meaningless.
And it was, when I sent you the message, a lot of it was like, was like this incredible sense of like, it was this really ex, there was an exquisite nature to it, right? Which is like, how fucking liberating is
Eva: Mm-hmm.
Kyley: Right. Everything's meaningless, right? Like, who fucking cares if 10,000 people or 10 people listen to a podcast?
Because none of it matters, right? Like, like, like who fucking cares what your boss thinks of you? Because he's also just gonna turn into dust. Like none of this matters
Eva: that we think is so big and important and urgent or, and scary doesn't like literally
Kyley: literally is completely fucking insignificant. And this like, like this big drive, you know, going to being an ambitious person, like, oh, you wanna write a book? Fuck. Oh, who cares, right? Like, which is not to say don't write the book, right? But it's just like, it doesn't [00:50:00] matter. It doesn't prove anything. It doesn't make anything.
There is no me, there is no like, and now you are important, right? Because it doesn't matter because your book could be, you could, it could be Oprah's fucking best loved book for forever. And also who the fuck knows who Oprah is 300 years
Eva: Yeah, yeah,
Kyley: And also like, Zoom out to the cosmos. Like, they're like, it, it, it, it just doesn't, it just is nothing.
Eva: yeah. Yeah. I mean, this idea of like, everything turns to dust. Like we literally turn to dust, like we will decay and our bones will turn to dust, and Yeah. When I hear you talk about it, I'm like, this is liberating. It's like, You know, nothing has to be as heavy or serious as it is. But I'm hearing you also add this layer of like, oh, maybe this is just my takeaway.
Like this is like what you're always saying, this is it like with your kids, like this is it, this, it it, there's no [00:51:00] measurement of value or quality or, or like goodness or success. It's like that is a con, that's a made up concept in the mind of a human being. Like this, this existing just as we are is the only thing we actually like have, and then it's gone.
Kyley: Yeah. And, and this is like intellectually, again, this is the thing that's beautiful about this experience is like, intellectually, yeah, I could have had this conversation two weeks ago, right? But there it was like, it literally felt like the temples were just like weaving, like, like weaving through me.
Like, no, like it's not what you think it is. Like we are just like, I felt like I was just getting sucked into this, like deeper and deeper. Um, shed like, yeah, like knowing, or maybe it's not even, it was more like, like these, like veils getting pulled away from your eyes that are like, [00:52:00] you keep making meaning you keep stacking up these things to make meaning, and they're not real because there's no meaning.
Eva: Yeah. Yeah. Okay. So, okay. And then I, okay. A couple, uh, I have a couple questions. I think my next one's gonna be, so talk about, do you wanna talk about the existential part? Like the part that you said that, like, you got dark there for a second and then you like recovered. Do you want
Kyley: Yeah. Yeah. So, okay, so, so
Eva: Like, how did you receive this, I guess, you know.
Kyley: in the beginning it, so it's, it came in like very, like, well it was interesting cuz I had an expectation, right? That I was like, these temples have been calling me, like, some strings gonna happen. Like, I heard it, like had this expectations and I'm like, walk in the, even Nick knew, like, I don't know why these were a big deal for Kylie, but like, he is like, like meaning, like, he knew like, I'll be a parent and you can be the B parent, right?
And like, really like, take your time with these samples. And I'm basically like walking around being like, [00:53:00] all right temples, you called me her. What you got? Rather like, what? Like almost like waiting for like
Eva: Yeah.
Kyley: this transcendent experience.
Eva: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.
Kyley: Which is alleged, and not being like too graspy about it, but just sort of like, okay, what you got?
And I was like, oh, these are just some cool temples. Okay. Right? Like, history is neat. Alrighty. You know, uh, let's get a cappuccino. And, um, and, and then it was just like this, like quiet, like unfurling, like throughout the afternoon and the evening of just like, like it was like, yeah. And then, and it, it first came through and it felt very like, oh yeah, that's interesting.
Right? Of course you're just gonna disappear. Everything disappears. And then it became this like really like kind of liberating feeling of like, God, why do I care about anything in a like, really beautiful way, right? Like, why would I care? Like I don't need to care. And then, uh, And this is like weaving in between like me, like reading my book all [00:54:00] day, whatever else.
And then we wake up in the morning and this is when I, and it was just kept getting louder. Basically the volume just kept getting turned on. And so then I sent you this voice note. I like what upstair to go to the bathroom. And I was like, I gotta, I gotta share this with somebody. I gotta share this with you, Eva.
And so we send you a voice's like, by the way, everything is meaningless. Talk to you later.
Eva: Which I loved. Of course.
Kyley: Of course. Yeah. I, I was like, if there's one person in the world that needs this Italy message, right? And then, and then this is the wild part. Almost instantly, almost as soon as I let like sent you that message, I started to get sick, like sick to my stomach and spent the next, we were immediately going to this like buffalo mozzarella farm, which turns out is actually made by real buffalo.
Not, I did not know that. I like. I just thought it was like a cool name. Buffalo Mozzarella made by Buffalos.
Eva: Which is the best, by the way,
Kyley: Oh my God.
Eva: so good.[00:55:00]
Kyley: Soo Buffalo Mo Mozzarella farm that had like a big playground and like whatever else. And we arrived by the time we arrived, like, I actually think I'm gonna throw up
Eva: Hmm.
Kyley: like out of nowhere.
And I was like, so sick. Like the whole time we're at this Buffalo Metro Republic, which like the buffalo smell is not helping this situation.
Eva: was this even delicious to you, or were you like
Kyley: I did not eat anything. I was like, Nope, nope, nope, nope. Um, but I mean, I made up for it. I had plenty of other, but, but I was like, so sick. Like I had like, was like sitting on this bench with like my head and my hands.
Like I was just like super, super did not like, felt like I was gonna throw up. We weren't, we left. I was like, I have to go take a nap. I fell like asleep. So deep asleep. Like I was like gone from the world for three hours and in the midst of this period of feeling really sick and then going to sleep, I was also in this very dark part of this essential, no, this I had, I hadn't gotten very dark yet.
I was just like, I was mostly just like very uncomfortable. I woke up so the whole thing lasted five hours and [00:56:00] it was like nothing had happened. It was completely normal and fine. Which I share this because that is a thing my body has done before. Not that particular thing, but I will experience like magic, like integrate, like something big has shifted and my body will show me, right?
Like I once had this, like I've shared it on the podcast before. I had this like huge breakthrough about safety and then made my mom pull over cuz I almost immediately vomited on the three minute road. So like these really huge things, my body will process by being like, yeah, something big just happened.
Eva: Yeah. I mean that's, I mean, I love that because the body is so intelligent and so it's doing something, even if your mind doesn't ne necessarily know, but
Kyley: And it felt like validation of like, yes, this feels like a big shedding. And so the body al also feels like this because, you know, sometimes things big happens, some big spiritual thing happens and there's some part of that was like, but did anything really
Eva: yes. [00:57:00] Yeah, totally. Oh my God, yes. I'm so glad you're speaking to that. That happens a lot. Yeah.
Kyley: Yeah. So I really love my body being like, yeah, no, we'll give you some evidence. Do you wanna feel like shit for four hours? Fine. That's fine.
Eva: I love that. But yeah, it's so funny that I do have that doubt of like, wait, was that a real thing or was that just like,
Kyley: I just make that up?
Eva: exactly. Mm-hmm.
Kyley: yeah. Um, I mean, truthfully it doesn't matter because everything's meaningless. But anyways, so then, then that evening it did kind of take a dark turn and I was like, in particular about my kids and was like kind of in this like, Like scared and sad place of like, even if you're like in a trip or like, like you just like zoom out so big that you're like the whole cosmos and you're like, but I, I like being with, I like, I like that my kids exist for me.
Like Right. I, I, uh, and so there was like some, there was like, so then I had this experience of the darkness was like just this [00:58:00] grief of like, I love my kids. I love the meaning that I make in motherhood and this game that we play. And, um, and I don't like, yeah. And, and yeah, and just like grief there and like actually sitting, we have a guest coming on the show probably next season whose whole work is about you're going to die.
And it was like a lot of that, it was like, no, but actually everything is meaningless. And also you're gonna die. Right? You're gonna die. That's what happens here. And like, um, and just the. the discomfort of, um, not being able to look away from that
Eva: Hmm.
Kyley: for a couple of hours, even as I'm also in the middle of having this beautiful vacation and like reading my book and drinking.
Great. What? Right. So that was also interesting. Um,
Eva: Well, which I think is totally understandable. I think it's actually okay, by the way, to enjoy the meaning that we make [00:59:00] if you. Choose to, like, it can be a conscious choice to be like, I'm okay. I, I see the big picture, but also like, I don't, you know, like it's, it's, I think if it's a choice, then it's not like you're a victim to it, you're just playing along.
Kyley: yes, yes. Right. That is the whole thing of like, oh, if writing a book is meaningless, you are only doing it because you fucking want to, right? Not because you think it's gonna prove that you're finally actually worth something. Right? It's like it's just a thing that you think is fun to do. And if you are.
This, this. So this has been part of this gift of like this slow down trip, this like nervous system reset this experience that in some ways I think I'm still like letting itself unfurl within me of like, everything's meaningless. Therefore, what do you like just pick? Right? So maybe what you actually wanna do is just [01:00:00] fucking read books about fairy tales all day long, right?
Like, maybe what you actually wanna do is just sleep twi. I don't know. But it doesn't, it doesn't matter. So if it doesn't matter, you can put your joy in the center.
Eva: Mm-hmm. Yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yes, yes. Well, and also by the way, the grief, I just wanna go back to the grief for a second. I think that's a healthy, to me, that seems like a healthy experience to have because, you know, the, the ego or whatever, like, it seems to me just like a really healthy way of actually actually letting go and saying goodbye because it's sad because the ego's like, oh, but this is how, you know, like the ego likes to know and be like, this is how it is.
And, and there's a sense of safety in that. And of course, I know. And if you're actually feeling grief, that to me seems positive cuz you're actually saying like, no, like I can [01:01:00] let go of this a little bit.
Kyley: Well, and I think I, every time I have this experience of like some, some layer peeling off, some kind of existential layer peeling off, I. I have this experience of grief that's like, what it always comes back to for me is like, I don't want, I don't wanna lose something, meaning some identity layer or some like meaning layer that will make me love my kids less.
Eva: hmm.
Kyley: That's like always what it comes back to is like, like I don't wanna lose like whatever p whatever gets peeled away. The part of me that like clings to it is like, we can't lose this if it means we lose.
Eva: So many thoughts on this. Yes. Yeah. So on one hand I'm like, [01:02:00] ultimately on the way, on the actual other side of this, you're, I'm, and you, I'm sure you already know this, it doesn't do that. It actually lets you allow, allows you to love your kids even more. But what I will say is that I think the tricky part that we have, the hurdle we have to get over is what our definition of love is.
Because your love may look different, and that can, I think, be scary because for so many reasons of what we think it's supposed to look like, or, um, because that kind of love feels familiar or because it feels like it's right. I don't know. And so, There's no, there's no version in this world where you will love your kids last.
Like I don't actually think that's possible, but I do think it's like, oh, but it means that you have to,
yeah. Something might change and that could be scary.
Kyley: and I think that's the grief, right? [01:03:00] Is that like, yeah, there is change because because. Peeling off any of these layers creates change. And so like, you are then different and therefore you move differently or experience or create differently. And, um, and I think even if it's a quote unquote good change, to your point, like there's still, like grief is part of making that change, right?
It's part of the integrating of that process. It's the grief of,
Eva: the death and the rebirth.
Kyley: yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Um, can confirm, you know, we're a week and a half after my existential crisis continue. Still love my kids, so
Eva: Okay, so can I tell you, I wanna tell you where, where your left message left me, and I still have a question that I wanna
Kyley: great. Great.
Eva: So when I heard your message, it was great to receive because I, I, you [01:04:00] know, I love me. A you are insignificant message like that. The insignificant message has never, it never has done the thing where it makes me feel. S you know, I, I understand that sometimes it can make you feel bad or like panicky, but I'm, my problem is that I'm so fucking thinking about myself all the goddamn time, that it's a nice reprieve to be like, oh, I don't matter.
Do you know what I mean? So,
Kyley: Yes, I do.
Eva: So I always love messages like that, but you happen to have caught me in a moment where I told you like, whatever this eclipse has been going on, lots of stuff has been going on in my personal life, so I've been feeling like triggered and activated and emotional. And so your message caught me in a moment where I was like, oh, I do care.
Everything fucking matters and I'm really fucking stuck or, or attached to whatever problem I am obsessed with right now. Like whatever. Like, and, and so actually your me, your message was a really helpful reminder, but I was in this interest, so, so listeners, you may have heard me [01:05:00] refer to my teacher Tom before, and his whole thing is like, uh, every time I like work with him, I come back to the conclusion of like, oh yeah, it, this conclusion, like, none of this is, is real.
Like, it doesn't, doesn't matter. Not like in a idealistic kind of way, but like,
There's like a, just, just like, it's not that big of a deal. It's not so serious. Like that's his whole, and I remember feeling really mad at him cuz I was like, what if he's wrong? What if it does matter? What if these things do matter? What if these, I was so caught up in the story of like, I don't even know what I was worried about the time.
Like whatever, some trauma I was working through or some stress about my finances or some something, you know, I'm like, but, but what if I'm doing all this spiritual stuff and what if we're wrong? Like, that's how I was a, that's how sucked into
Kyley: Hmm.
Eva: my, [01:06:00] um, like the, my, you know, the, that's how a big these, you know how problems can seem bigger than they are.
That's how sucked in I was. I'm like, what if, oh my God, I've been deceiving myself and like, Tom, every time I get to a place of like, oh, it doesn't, no, nothing matters. That's wrong. And I think my question for you is,
My, like capital S self feels like the capital T truth is that yes, nothing, nothing is what we think it is. And nothing matters as much as we think that it does. But also what if sometimes it does matter? Like that's what I'm trying to figure out. Like, like, you know what I mean? Like what,
um,
when does it matter or does it never matter?
Kyley: So this is what was intense about this experience is that the experience was not like, oh, nothing matters as much as [01:07:00] you think it does. It was like literally, there is no such thing as meaning. Everything is meaningless. Right. It actually was for me, a really nihilistic experience of like, no, no, no.
Everything like the entirety of existence is, is meaningless. And also you can then swoop back in and like create meaning, have fun, play that game, right.
Eva: But do by choice,
Kyley: But it's, but it's not, it's not real. It's just the thing that you're doing basically to pass the fucking time. That was, that was.
Eva: Yes. So that is actually what Tom, like if you and Tom had a conversation like that's his whole fucking mo. And it can be, it's mostly liberating, but sometimes, well, I don't even know if it's frustrating. I feel like, I feel like when we fall into that, to me, that's what I call clear seeing. Cause I feel like that's closer to the truth of reality.
Kyley: Yeah.
Eva: But I don't [01:08:00] know, there's just this anger there of like, but what if sometimes it does matter? Like what? Or, or, or, or what if sometimes this is, what did you say? None. Or what if it there is meaning? Like I just wanted to, I don't know. I don't know what I'm, am I.
Kyley: Uh, yes. Okay. What I hear in what you're saying is like basically this part of you that's crying out to be like, but I matter cuz I'm experienced because like, what I feel matters.
Eva: Yeah, it's almost like, actually, it's interesting to hear you say, it's almost like my fear is saying, no, this matters. It's not even the problem. It's like the experience of like my fear is demanding that I care.
Kyley: Yeah. Well, Anne, like even as I had this like, experience of like, everything's meaningless, like, first of all, a i, I would like meaning, right? I don't want a, I don't feel a couple things. One, I think we, in this moment, [01:09:00] what I received was this, was this ni was this kinda like nihilistic sense of like nothing, everything's meaningless, which can create despair and cynicism, but that's the choice, right?
Because despair and cynicism is its own. Like, um, that's this difference. It's just another meaning, right? And so like, like blank fucking slate. Then you get to pick. Right. So there's one thing there that's about, like, if everything is meaningless, actually like really, really, really true, like big fucking scope picture, then the like ecstasy of choice
Eva: Mm-hmm.
Kyley: felt like, that feels like the, like that feels like the liberation for me and like the gift and the like, like the pleasure of okay, if it doesn't mean it, if it doesn't, if it doesn't matter, then what do you then, like what do you want?
It's the only thing that matters because you have to pick what matters to what. Like that's just if, if we're [01:10:00] picking, cause none of it matters. Just pick the thing that's fun or whatever, or, or good or ecstasy. Um, but then I also think that we can do this thing sometimes where intellectually we, we use what we know intellectually to like cut off our emotions.
Eva: Mm-hmm. Yep. Guilty.
Kyley: Right, which is like, oh, okay, intellectually I have this idea that everything is meaningless or that things don't matter the way I think they do or whatever, and therefore I shouldn't feel
Eva: Right, right, right, right. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
Kyley: And that feels like bullshit to me.
Eva: yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Yep. I totally hear you. 100. Yeah. That's spiritual bypassing. Essentially. You're trying to like, kind of in a way actually intellectualize yourself with disguise of being spiritual out of experiencing what you're experiencing.[01:11:00]
Kyley: yeah. And like when, so when you're speaking to, is hilarious, that that's where I caught you, when I think of that message it's making, it's just making me think of like, um, I don't know. It's just making me think of that part of you calling out to be like, Well that's fucking paradox, right? It's like everything is meaningless and also like I matter cause like what the fuck?
I'm here breathing, feeling really intense things. So of course I matter. And I al I don't think that's okay. That's the thing that, you know, that's the delight of paradox, right? That's the ecstasy of this fucked up thing that like we don't understand and you don't understand shit because of course you also matter because you are the, you are the, you're as far as you know, you are the only thing that actually exist.
Eva: Yes, exactly. Yes.
Kyley: experiencing your experience. So of course it matters cuz it's the only thing that exists.
Eva: Yep. Yeah. Yeah. [01:12:00] Tom will also say like, you are the whole universe essentially, because you can only experience life from your consciousness. So like, for all, you know. Yeah. Like, I don't, for all I know, you don't actually exist. Like it's just what I'm perceiving Right. Through my awareness and consciousness.
Yeah. So it's both kind of,
Kyley: Yes,
Eva: yeah.
Kyley: yes, yes, yes, yes.
Eva: Ah, yeah. That makes a, I don't know if this makes sense. I'm, I don't know if listeners are
Kyley: I was wondering, I am very curious who has gone this far in our journey with us.
Eva: if you have gotten this bar, please let us know. Send us a message we love hearing from you. Send us a review. Even if it's a bad one, you're like, I don't, no idea what these bitches are talking about. I, I
Kyley: do love the, like this, like, well, like this was like, we like, um, like a zero entry pool, right? Where we like started by like my kids and like normal things. And then it was like making implanting [01:13:00] memory and then it was like everything's meaningless
Eva: Yes. Well that makes, that's, I feel like pretty, um, on point. Like what is it? Pretty on, on, on par for us. Yeah.
Kyley: yeah, yeah.
Eva: I think I'm trying to slur my words cuz it's getting late and it's late for you.
Kyley: It is. It is. Yes.
Eva: okay. I feel like this is a good time to wrap it up. Well, we should do joy.
Kyley: Oh, yes. Oh, I have a great joy. But you go first.
Eva: Okay. Let me think.
Um, I'm gonna feel into my body what's been bringing me joy. Mm. Okay. I have something. Um, okay. So I will go first. I, I will just say it. I've been really feeling myself.
Kyley: Oh, love this.
Eva: I. I was gonna, yeah, I don't know. I feel self-conscious cause I feel like I wanna preface it with all this explanation or whatever, but I will just say, I think it's coming [01:14:00] from a place of, I'm in that place in my singledom. I think where I knew it would, I don't know. Cause every time I've like gone out of relationship this, this does happen.
There's something nice about being single again when you're single and you're like, there's parts that are not nice too when you're also, I think it's also, I could easily also feel and have felt like, oh, uh, I don't know, whatever. Weird, insecure, like, I don't know. When you get out of relationships, like you're all sad and you're in grief and you're like, well, and you're like in your pajamas and you're gross and you're haven't washed your hair all week.
Like there's that version of the tune. I think I've, anyway, I'm just in this, I think I've graduated from that and I think it's hormones. I think it's Austin. I think it's like this weather. I think it's. Oh, also, I do have to say that conversation that we had with Kelly about like fashion and dressing,
Kyley: Mm.
Eva: I did not expect that to have such a huge impact on me.
But, um, listeners, [01:15:00] if you want to feel inspired about the way that you dress to help you feel more connected to yourself, like that was a really impactful, um, conversation for me. Because, you know, I, I think also as I'm in this stage of like newness, there's, there's reinvention. And dare I say this on the podcast, I know my parents don't listen, so I'll just say it.
There's just like, there's like horniness in the air too. Like there's just that like
Kyley: Yes.
Eva: there. And I, and for me, I also think it's a summer thing, like I don't think I would feel this in a winter mood, but I was journaling the other day. I'm like, oh my God. Like this feels fucking, oh yeah. Also, the other thing is like, okay, I discovered self tanner.
There's like so many things here, but, and all of that is so I've never tried self tanner, but I, I guess it's all just coming into adding into like also self care a little bit more. [01:16:00] And it feels, I, I, I, I, I feel like I could say so much more about this because this is like a delicious place to be in. Um, but I feel so appreciative, actually and grateful that this is something that I can experience because I think it's such a beautiful thing when you can be in a space of like, oh, I'm fucking feeling myself.
You know what I mean? And I, I actually like, would love to have like a longer conversation about this cuz it's like, yeah, there's something, I don't know, like, ugh, there, this is just tied to me for a lot of things about being a woman and also aging and also, but also reminding me of like my youthful self of like, I feel youthful in a way that like, It's weird.
I feel simultaneously older, like older woman and also youthful at the same time. Anyway, it's just, yeah, it's feeling sexy. It's feeling spicy.
Kyley: Fucking love this. I'm here for this. I am here for [01:17:00] an hour and a half episode where we just talked about Eva feeling herself, like, I am here for that. I am here for it.
Eva: Well, thank you for supporting me in that. All right.
Kyley: yes, yes. Also, maybe this very question of like feeling older and youthful, maybe what you're also experiencing is like, you're like, nothing is what we think it is.
Right. And we have some idea of what feeling older feels like. But you've never been 39 before. Right. And perhaps what you're experiencing is like, oh, of course. Of course. To, of course, to become a more mature version of myself also has access to feeling like youthful because like why wouldn't it? Right?
Because I have all of these things and that part of me still like is very much alive. So that actually, and there's like a redefinition that you're getting to write for yourself.
Eva: Yes. And I also, yes to all of those things and what you're, uh, I think something I'd like to explore more. Cause I haven't figured it [01:18:00] all out yet too either. But it's like, I think the truth is, is like I'm taking, like, there's a self-care element. So like, you know, self-care, I feel like it's a overused word and it's like people, you know, whatever is a pedicure, I don't know.
But it's the thing, the positive thing that I think can happen when you become single again, is that like you make more of an effort. So that's with the clothing thing too. Like the thing that you said to me on that episode is like, just wear the thing. It's like I can't, there's something nice about putting effort and it's weird because it's, I don't feel like I like let myself go when I didn't put effort into myself.
But there's this element of like, I'm gonna. Make more of an effort in a good way that feels so loving and feel, and I, and I kind of miss that, I guess so.
Kyley: Oh, I love this. I know what you're speaking to and I really love it. Yeah. Yeah.
Eva: Okay. What about you and Kylie? What's something that's bringing you joy?
Kyley: Oh my [01:19:00] God. Um, maybe my Italian coffee maker.
Eva: Oh wait, did you bring it back from Italy?
Kyley: Yes. We dance, this is the whole time we were in Italy. I was like, I'm gonna, I'm going to just like cry every day when I don't have this coffee. I love, I already love a latte. And like, that is like, been a thing that I'm like, as soon as we have a big kitchen, like I want one of, I've been like, I want one of these like fancy, you know, latte makers or whatever.
And um, and then coffee in Italy is so fucking good. I could cry for how good the coffee is. Oh my God. Oh my God.
Eva: Wait, I don't even remember. Do you think it's like The Bean, I mean, obviously it's, it's Italian coffee or whatever, but like what do you think it is?
Kyley: It's just, I don't even know. I don't even know, but it's everything. I also think like the Italians don't fuck around with their coffee. Right? Like it is strong. Also, I've had a headache for the past, like four days in the morning, and I realized today that it's a, a caffeine withdrawal because I was drinking like [01:20:00] four or more cappuccinos a day.
Eva: Oh my God.
Kyley: And it is so strong. And I was like, and at home I drink like one cup of tea and one cup of coffee. And I've been like, why do I have this? I'm drinking so much water. Water, so headache. It's caffeine withdrawal. That's what's happening. It's caffeine withdrawal. So, but I was like, I'm gonna be so sad when we go home because I, it's not, it's just, it is literally just not the same.
Right. And then the last place we stayed, we stayed in Airbnb. So we'd been staying at hotels and, um, where they would make me all the handmade, delicious cappuccinos that I wanted, whenever I wanted. And also it was like really sad to me when I'd be like, it's two o'clock. I ha I can't, I can't keep drinking them cause I'll be up all night.
I made that mistake once. So we bought, but the place, the last place that we stayed had like a, a like. Little, a little espec a an espresso maker that was like, oh, it's, this is a thing that is small and you could like have in your home. And it is actually pretty easy to use. [01:21:00] And then we like, just like heated up our milk on the stove with a little whisk and we were like, we, we can handle this at home.
And so then we bought one and it's in the Italian colors, it's green and red and this really cute woman bought it, was sold it to us. Like her shop was great anyway. And so like on my birthday, Nick brought me a cappuccino to my bedroom with our Italian coffee maker.
Eva: oh my God, I love it. Ugh. I love it. Uh, honestly, I totally understand like this. Anyway, it's just so weird how, or not weird, but amazing to me how like the morning beverage situation, it can be such a source of joy. It's like, it's like cool. Like, like you're, like Desi was saying after he was quoting you.
It's like the little things, but yeah, it's amazing. So anyway, I'm very happy for you. I'm kind of curious what it looks like anyway. Maybe we'll take a,
Kyley: I will send you a picture. Yes. Or I'll put it on Instagram, whatever. But um, yeah, there were a few things of sacred to me as my morning beverage.
Eva: yeah. I hear you.
Kyley: yeah,
Eva: Ah, okay. [01:22:00] Um, well thanks for joining us everybody and for being with us till the end, if you are still here. Um,
Kyley: yeah. I'm dying to know what people think on this one. So. Yes.
Eva: actually write us review. I've been noticing it's been a minute since we've had any new reviews.
Kyley: It's, I saw that just today. I think our last review was from a year
Eva: Yeah. Friends.
Kyley: you we're hungry for praise.
Eva: Yes, we love praise. If you wanna give us praise, we would be so appreciative. hearing from you.
Kyley: All right. Love y'all.