Rainbow Winnike joins the show to talk about thriving as a neurodivergent person, altar work & connecting with your ancestors, navigating the nuanced and profound journey of gender transition.
Rainbow Winnike joins the show to talk about thriving as a neurodivergent person, altar work & connecting with your ancestors, navigating the nuanced and profound journey of gender transition.
Bowie's Website - rainbowchrysaliscoaching.com
Bowie's Instagram - https://www.instagram.com/rainbowchrysaliscoaching/
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Eva's instagram: @iamevaliao
Book a discovery call with Eva
Kyley's Instagram: @kyleycaldwell
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Kyley: [00:00:00]
Hello, my loves. Welcome to hello universe. This is Kylie. And you've got a solo interview from me, uh, to kick off a really beautiful interview that we did actually recorded before our summer break. So I've been eagerly awaiting our moment to release this. Uh, but before I tell you about our guests this week, I want to, first of all, give a plug to my girl Eva.
I mean, y'all know at this point, I could just wax poetic about how much I love this woman for two hours, like a whole episode could just be me telling you how great she is. Um, but in particular, I really want to highlight [00:01:00] how talented Eva is at helping us make peace With our mind. I think a lot of us feel pretty trapped by the looping thoughts and the dissonant relationship that we have with ourself and the different ways that we relate to ourself in our mind and it has a real gift for helping your mind Be a peaceful place a place that you actually might want to be and she blends really spiritual work with really with a practical lens and She'll change your life if you let her so if you have been feeling like you would appreciate a little more peace and a little bit of a
quieter mind or [00:02:00] just a mind that was a happier place to exist within. Eva's your girl, my friend. Eva is your girl. And as for me, um, Alchemy is coming up. It's not open yet. I'm just still teasing alchemy, which long time listeners might know is my signature program that is a money transformation, life transformation course.
And so this is a program that's going to completely transform the way that you Relate to money, the way that money shows up in your life. The other end of the course, money's going to show up for you in big and generous ways, and you will be different. Love will show up for you in big and generous ways.
Your sovereignty with your body will show up for you in big and generous ways. Um, we use money as the portal, create new opportunities and wealth with money, but we also create new opportunities with our whole fucking lives. Um, and that's coming. So get excited. If you want to jump start on that, let me [00:03:00] know as I might have a spot opening up for one on one.
Uh, it's a bit of a question mark at the moment. Um, and in the spirit of teasing, I will be dropping a. Really, really, really jam packed free resource next week, it won't stay free, but it will start out for free. Um, and it's coming next week. So get yourself excited cause it's going to be really juicy, really rich, a really fun way to get excited about the Alchemy Magic that's coming.
So reach out to Eva. If you would like your life to be a more pleasurable place to be, um, and hit me up if you want some money magic now onto our guest Rambo Winnick or Bowie for short is a gender doula. A neurodivergent coach and just an all around [00:04:00] magical human being. And this episode was a lot of fun for court because we go all over the place.
It's one of those episodes where we talk about 500 different things in one. Um, but there's some really juicy material here about ancestor work, which is. extra delicious because we're releasing this on all souls day, right? We're releasing it. We recorded this months ago and yet it's coming out on this day that is all about really connecting with your ancestors.
And we spent a ton of time in the meeting, the show talking about ancestor work. So just, you know, love a good synchronicity there. Um, There's also a really rich conversation that happens here about neurodivergence that weaves back and forth throughout many pockets and how to really love yourself as a neurodivergent person.
Um, and then some just really gorgeous wisdom about gender and gender play and gender expression and what it means to, um, Let go of the constraints of [00:05:00] the way the world has taught you that you should be and really lean into fucking choosing yourself. Um, and that applies to folks who are trans and that applies to folks who are, you know, more quote unquote gender normative.
Um, and so there's a really beautiful multi layered wisdom that shows up in this episode. So I can't wait for you to listen.
Eva: Hi rainbow. Welcome to hello universe. We're so excited to have you.
Bowie: Hi! Thank you for having me here.
Eva: So, as you know, the question that we start off our show with is, um, what's something life is teaching you right now?
Bowie: Yeah. Um, well, I guess me being here is part of it. Um, I've been learning a lot about stepping into visibility. Um, I mean, I feel like I've always been fairly visible with like my identity and who I am, but just like, I feel like I'm like stepping into an even greater level of visibility [00:06:00] right now. And, um, it is kind of scary cause it's kind of a scary time to be visibly trans, um, among other identities.
Um, but. I don't know. I was recently reading Audre Lorde, getting some support from her and just like, you know what, trying to take care of myself and give myself what I need and still have the courage to like do the things that feel scary. So
leaning into that.
Eva: I mean, Kylie, I wonder if you have thoughts on this. I feel like you recently said something similar about wanting to be more seen, but I think what I'm curious about, Rainbow, is what do you think, um, where do you think the desire to be more visible? Is coming from like what motivates that and I asked because I think I have the same desire and I think in some way we probably all do.[00:07:00]
Um, but it's something that I wonder about like what is it that fuels me about being visible in a bigger way.
Kyley: I ask a question of your question? Do you like real on brand,
you know, trippy from the beginning, but like, are you in your question? Are you sort of asking like, what, like, okay, what I'm hearing you ask is like, what is it that I even want in my desire to be more visible? Like, why do I want to be more
visible?
Is that kind of the question you Eva are asking of Eva?
Eva: I, yeah. Or, or even the human desire, it's like, right. This universal human desire that I think we have. And I just kinda wanna, I don't really know what the question is. I think, I'm just wondering if you wanna speak on that
Bowie: Wow, that feels big.
Kyley: That's all we do. Sorry.
Bowie: uh,
Kyley: You can also
Bowie: the nature of human existence.
Kyley: we've also had guests before really beautifully be like, that's a great question. Why don't you [00:08:00] answer the bomb you just threw at me and give me a minute to think.
Bowie: Um, yeah, I don't, I don't really know, but I, I, guess for myself, um, I think it's a balance of like, I do like being seen, and I like being, um, seen as someone who is like, visibly trans, and who is kind of disrupting gender norms, and Confusing people, also like being someone that I needed to see when I was younger.
And, um, yeah, I think that, um, I think the next level that I'm going through is because I have been starting working for myself and it's just like, now I have to go through the self promotion and putting myself out there, but there is kind of an excitement in it of like, Ooh, [00:09:00] like, even if I try to like. Do this work because I love it.
So I'm like, even if the other things I'm trying to do don't work out, like, it's really fun to just like, talk about the way I view the world. And there's so much hatred out there right now. So I guess I just want to counter that as much as I can, knowing I'm imperfect.
Eva: Yeah.
Kyley: I really love. What you speak to of the delight in confusing people. I just, I, I relish that with you. Like, um,
Eva: And being disruptive.
Kyley: yeah, yeah, yeah. Um, also I just want to, I think it's really interesting. You said like, you know, I think I am really, you know, visible and speaking to all these ways in which it, you know, from the. Five minutes. I've been lucky enough to know you like visibility is, is a part, is a part of been a part of your journey. And [00:10:00] so of course, here it is again. Right. Cause I just, one of the things I say on that, we talk about on the podcast all the time is like, we kind of all have like five things we're just looping through over and over and over again, you know, so like, yeah, of course visibility is like, oh, you want to, you're calling him next, like bigger version of you.
Here's the same exact lesson all over again, but deeper.
Bowie: I was literally thinking about that when I was reading your question about what are you learning right now? And I was like, nothing necessarily new, just a deeper level of all the same things I'm always learning.
Eva: Yeah. Or a bigger up leveling. Um. Kylie, what if, I mean, I'm interested in this, in this topic of wanting to be seen and I want to kind of throw it to you, Kylie. Um, you had kind of said something offline to me about like wanting to be more visible. Can you speak to that?
Kyley: Did I, I mean, that might've been like seven [00:11:00] lifetimes ago, as in three days ago. So, um, I mean, I think. Yes, that does feel like in some ways there's always a part of me that's like, could you all pay attention? Cause I'm really great. And also wanting to not be seen, right? Like that's, that's the, the push and pull. Um, oh, that's not true. I, my personal conflict is a deep desire to be seen coupled with, um, a fear that. Once the spotlight's on me, I'll fuck up and we'll be found out to have been
unworthy. That's really what it is for me. Uh, I like the big eyes that rainbow's going to go. Yeah, it's a real, yeah. Yeah. Um, and, and I would say, actually, I'm watching in this moment that being reflected back to me in visibility, like there's the obvious visibility say in business or platform or growth, but I think it [00:12:00] also shows up for me in. Visibility of friendships and like how much I allow myself to be vulnerable and present and committed in friendship, which is also a part of just answering your desire to be seen and also how much I might hide because I'm actually afraid. Like if I show up enough, you're all going to realize that I'm a huge pain in the ass and you've made a mistake.
Right. So, so I think, I think I'm really watching that push and pull of like wanting to be seen. And being afraid of fucking it up. And then I also think there's something about wanting to be seen for who I actually am. Right. And, and, and like that layer of the, who I think I have to be. Versus who I actually am and that push and pull.
And then in some ways I would throw that back to you, rainbow. Cause I feel like that's probably a lot of your magic is what is, what the process looks like. a world that is perhaps [00:13:00] actively unsafe, um, or, or wants to create that for you. How do you, how do you make the path of allowing yourself to be seen for exactly who you are, as opposed to who, you know, other people might think you're supposed to be.
Bowie: Yeah, Um, I think it's a balancing act of okay. I feel like I need to, like, go back and then
tell a little bit my story to explain. So I think when I first started. Transitioning my gender transition about 10 years ago, um, there was, I knew some non binary people, but it was, there was less awareness of it. And it was very, it felt very binary and very like, um, a lot of emphasis on passing or, you know, fitting in as the gender, um, as a binary gender
Kyley: Like the goal is to fit in.
Bowie: [00:14:00] yeah, and to not be noticed
as different. Um, and I get that that is like a survival strategy. Um, and at the same time, it's a lot of pressure because then it feels like, Oh, if I'm not. Passing as, so I was, um, like, oh my God, how much do I want to share talking about visibility? How much do I want to share? So I, yeah, at the time I was like living as a trans man, so I was like trying to pass as a man, even though I didn't really believe in it, but it also did feel safer.
Um, so. Yeah, it felt like a lot of pressure because then I was like, Oh, if I don't speak in a certain way, or if I move in a certain way or whatever, and someone catches me, or if they misgender me, then it felt like it was my fault. So over the years, I've worked through a lot of that. I mean, so that was about 10 years ago.
And now I [00:15:00] Um, pretty solidly in my non binary era. Um, I don't know what the future will hold, but so here I am. And I think that I still do have a little bit of that, but for the most part, I have shifted more to being like, well, if someone perceives me one way or the other, that has. nothing to do with me.
It's more about their own assumptions. Um, so there's the level of constantly being gendered in a way that rarely is accurate. Um, and then there's the question of, do I correct them? How do I respond? Um, and for me, usually it's related to my relationship with the person. So if it's someone I feel close with, I want to have an intimate relationship with, then I will tell them, um, [00:16:00] if it's someone that I feel like I'm going to see once, I'm never going to see again.
I usually don't say anything cause it's just, I don't have the energy. Uh, it depends on the day though.
Kyley: I'm, I'm curious if you feel comfortable that this. Chapter you're speaking about, about shifting from, um, you know, concern about, you know, being read as, as a man to your non binary era. And in particular, what you said about having access to the space of like, if you, if you have issue that's on you. Because I think that's so fucking gorgeous and also so fucking hard. And so I'm curious if you could speak to some of the things that helped you have access to that place.
Eva: Yeah, deeper and deeper, because I think a lot of us can say that on an intellectual level and we get it, but then, [00:17:00] you know, and then, but sometimes something will happen that it just, uh, or maybe someone we really care, you know, it's like if the stakes feel higher, maybe it's something we really care about, then it's harder to have that separation.
And so that's just like a lesson I'm constantly learning, but like, what's mine. What's other people's, you know, getting rid of that codependent, like the codependent need of being like, you know, where it's all really messy. And yeah, I guess I, so yeah, just to echo the question of like, how can we continue to practice that more deeply?
Bowie: Yeah, yeah, that's a good question. Um, yeah, because that's a good point because sometimes people will say things and it's like, well, but how, how do you do that? Um, so for me, a big part of my journey has been doing inner, inner child parts work, emotional clearing, um, with the parts of me that [00:18:00] get really triggered when someone misgenders me and it's not to say that, I guess I also need to clarify that it's I don't want to say that it's like, Oh, I've reached this point of healing where I'm like unaffected by the world.
And
none of
Eva: right. Exactly.
Bowie: that's
Eva: you mean you're, you're not enlightened yet.
Kyley: Yeah.
Eva: So
Bowie: but
Eva: forget you're a human, yeah.
Bowie: yeah, it just, it just doesn't affect me as much as it used to. And I have more of a tolerance for it. And, but yeah, like a big part of it has been doing the inner child work with the parts of me that take that personally of, Oh, someone misgendered me. I'm bad. I'm standing out. I'm wrong. And. Going inward and meeting with those parts and giving them what they need and telling them you're not wrong You didn't do anything wrong The things that other people think about you are weird are actually the most beautiful parts of you [00:19:00] So a lot of deep child healing a lot of working with my queer and trans Ancestors, I have an ancestor ulcer that I work with every day and I have my queer and trans ancestors on there, um, I'm selective about calling in my healed ancestors because I've had some experiences with like, unwell, dead people, so I, I make, I have boundaries.
Eva: Yeah, it's really important to have boundaries actually with our ancestors for sure.
Bowie: Yeah, um, so yeah, my queer and trans ancestors, that's why I was saying before like, reading Audre Lorde and being like, wait, I'm not the only person who's experienced something like this, um, and finding community is another big one,
Kyley: When I speak to the ancestor piece, because the other thing that I'm, I'm hearing you say in that too, is like, [00:20:00] I am part of a rich fucking legacy, right? Like my story and my struggle and my joy is. Is not singular. And in fact is like tied to all of these people behind me. And also to your point of like being the person that you wanted to see when you were younger, right?
Like that you are. Um, yeah, just like in a lineage of, you know, disrupting bullshit gender norms among other things. And, uh, that's the, as you were speaking to that, like I, it just feels so, so nourishing, right. And, and isn't that exactly what. You know, what we seek to, like, you know, when I tap into ancestry work, right.
That's the thing I am in some ways hungry for is like, okay, this has been, this has been actually a long time coming and I have some momentum at my back and I am to your point, like, yeah, not this like [00:21:00] lone wolves, you know, fighting against the whole world. I have, I have support, even if the world is actually sometimes tremendous.
Yeah.
Eva: Yeah. And, and to add to that, when I, when I hear you talking about rainbow is, um, this may seem obvious, obvious, but it's like this idea of like, oh, what you, what you believe about. Me says everything about you, right? Like that's the saying, but what I'm hearing you say is like, well, how do we, how do we embody that, that sort of confidence and self trust and self worth?
And it's not some intellectual thing where we just say like, Oh, well, you know, like says more about you than it says about me, but if we don't feel that it means that there's still wounding there and that then it's our responsibility to go and actually. Be soft and gentle and investigate because there is the thing that we quote unquote do is to [00:22:00] go and tend to the parts that are essentially feeling ashamed or broken or bad.
And so it's just very, um, I don't know. It's very. I like that because it's like, there is a thing that we can do and also it's very on brand with where I am right now in terms of like hosting this self love course and thinking about, oh yeah, it really does all come back to how deeply can we love ourselves.
It's not a rejection of someone else. It's like an acceptance of ourselves that crowds that makes other people's bullshit essentially kind of fall away, which is great.
Bowie: Yeah.
Eva: Does that make sense?
Bowie: It does. Yeah. And I do feel like community can be a really important part of that too is I just want all of us to have communal care and people who love us for who we are. And I know that can also be hard. I know there's a lot of people who feel like they don't have that. So even working your way up to [00:23:00] building community can be a process.
Um, I do think it's possible and Um, you know, it takes steps of learning about boundaries and learning about leaning into putting yourself out there and meeting people who are on the same page and all of that. But yeah, I think that community has been a big part of that too is like, because sometimes we need other people to reflect that back to us that you didn't do anything wrong.
Eva: Yeah. Yeah. It's a both and situation. It's like we tend to ourselves. And also sometimes we can't see ourselves clearly because we have like repeat like stories. And so it's so helpful when someone else can come in and give us a more accurate read people that we trust anyway.
Bowie: Yeah.
Kyley: by how, uh, cyclical or like infinite loop, infinity loop, this all is because I also think, you know, to go back to what we're saying about visibility, the [00:24:00] like genuine community requires vulnerability, right? And, and, and real vulnerability, I think requires some amount of self love, right? And so it's like, okay, community. You know, whether it's connection to ancestral lineage or, you know, embodied, uh, community, like gifts us deeper self love and the ability to kind of let ourselves be seen. And then that is the thing that. Require that, that is the essential component to building community.
Right. And so they just feed into one another and, um, yeah, I'm just, I'm just struck by how interconnected it all is. Which I think also, to be perfectly clear, I think it can sometimes also make it feel really overwhelming because if you're in a place of like real self loathing or like real kind of Emotional crisis, it's like, of course, community feels impossible, right?
Because, because, uh, [00:25:00] there's this, I guess there's this way in which I think sometimes the thing we need the most can feel hardest to grasp, right. Because of where we might be. Um,
Eva: That's interesting because I had a different read on that, which is my read is, and I think they're both true, but my read was like, that's very good news because it means you don't have to work on all three together. It's like, if you, if you focus on one, the others will also kind of, it supports the other two.
So they click into place. So that's like a more. I, I feel you girl, like on the fact that like, sometimes it can feel like, oh, well then where do I start? Or I, it's hopeless, but a more, another optimistic way of looking at it. It's like focus on one of those things and the other things will benefit.
Kyley: I love that. Okay. That's a much more generous. Hey, everyone take Eva's read on the situation.
Eva: And
Bowie: I like that.
Eva: oh, sorry, go ahead.
Bowie: Oh, yeah, I was just gonna say it feels like you just have to take the next right step.
Kyley: Oh,
Bowie: And I feel like for me, my work [00:26:00] with ancestors did help me to build relationships that helped me to build relationships with humans and and then also the land to like Just sitting outside with the trees, talking to the trees. Sometimes it's easier to start there.
Eva: Wait, can you speak on that a little bit more? Like, what do you, in, in, in, I'm really interested in this idea of like working with your ancestors has helped you work with more people in the 3D. How does, how does that connect?
Bowie: Well, because I felt like I could just go there and, um, Okay, maybe I'll explain how I work with them. So I have my little altar, and it has doors on it, so I can close it at night and open it during the day, and then I'll put candles on there. So usually, like, once a day, In the morning and at night and then just throughout the day, whenever I'll go and talk to them. So, I would just go and I'd light the candle and I would just talk to them about my day. So it was a space where I felt like I could say whatever I wanted to say and I didn't have to [00:27:00] worry about being judged. So I think it helped me to practice just speaking what was on my mind and opening up, I guess, in that way.
Eva: Yeah, that's really beautiful.
Kyley: I love the idea of creating a space where you can just fucking say what's on your mind. Like,
Eva: Yeah, it's like so simple, but how come I'm like, wait, but it's so simple. Yeah, it's not. I don't know if I have any practice like that. I speak with God. , but I don't think it's quite the same as what you're talking about, rainbow, which is almost like this tangible place that you go back to again and again.
I'm like, oh, I, it's like I could really use that
Kyley: and, and like the, also what I'm receiving in this too, is the medicine of unfiltered, right? Because we all have a tendency to filter [00:28:00] or mask or perform for whatever combination of reasons. And yeah, I'm just struck by. Yeah. This, we love simple that's profound around here. That's like, right. It's like, this is a real thing you could do.
You could sit down and just fucking say what you need to say to yourself and spirit and your ancestors and let that take shape for you. Um, yeah, it feels like a beautiful little practice. I also might steal that.
Eva: So is that actually, do you have any guidance on how people can sort of cultivate this as a practice, especially like with your clients? Is this something that you, um, encourage your clients to do as well? Mm-Hmm.
Bowie: Yeah, um, I always feel like I have experience with this and then there's always that part of me that's like, well, there's so much more to learn. So I'm not like certified and a lineage of [00:29:00] teaching ancestral practices, you know, like, and I can point people to people who have way more experience than me, but I do think I know enough, like. So, yeah, I mean, I think, I think, there is a lot of power in having well, for me, that's a big part of my practice is having alters. So I have my ancestor alter. I have just different ones that I work with. Um, so there's something about just, I feel like mentally and physically, it's like when you're in that space looking there, it's like you're connecting and sometimes it's like, yeah, that's what I'm doing. I'll get really deep, profound downloads or like very clear messages. And then other times I'll just speak what I want to say. And then I'm like, I don't really know what you're trying to tell me, but going to try to try to open up to receive maybe throughout my day or whatever. Guidance. Um, so yeah, I, I do feel like when starting to work with ancestors, [00:30:00] I like to have some type of doors or some type of way to like close it at night. Which just feels very clean to me and then open it during the day. That's something I learned from one of my old teachers, Christina Pratt. Um, and I also like to be selective about calling in. I've heard different phrases. Like I've heard calling in your healed ancestors, your benevolent ancestors, your bright and well ancestors, your good, true, beautiful and wise ancestors.
So in some way, I feel like it can help to just. I mean, and again, like this is how I do it. I'm not speaking for everyone else, but it can help to have some way of like clearly stating that you're calling in people who are resolved in some way. Because from my perspective, I feel like we do have a lot of unresolved dead floating around and that's one of the problems of today. Um, [00:31:00] and yeah, just being clear about who you're reaching out to. And it doesn't have to be people that you know, which is, I think. liberating. Um, it can be helpful to reach out to people. Like, I like to connect with these just like energies. And I'm like, you, I feel like you were from way back in the day, like, you know, living off the land, like Christianity is what, like, no idea of like any of that, you know?
So,
um, just like before.
Kyley: I'm sorry. I'm sorry. Do you work with ancestors? Like, do
you have a practice
Eva: no, well, I, uh, no, not occasionally I'll be called to like, that's not true. Like, uh, it's not a formal practice, but sometimes I will call in my benevolent ancestors. Sometimes I will like, in a way. Like if there's like a presence there and I'm like, Oh yeah, they're watching me or they're rooting for me or like, there's that sense.
Um, [00:32:00] but there's no formal ritual. And I just, and I don't know if there will ever be, but I also can see how I think that would be so healing and valuable, but I will say. And yet at the same time there's a way in which it's very much built into my culture because it's very common in like Taiwanese homes that you just have like a little altar with like the gods and and like the pictures of people who've passed and my Grandparents had an altar in their house in Taiwan.
And so some of my favorite memories are, um, times when we would go like, where you buy a pie, which means like you light the incense and you bring them all this food and you like pray and you say thanks and you leave the food there so like they have a chance to eat it first and then like, and it's like, everyone's hungry and everyone's so excited and then you get to eat and there's like this big family feast.
So in a way it's also like not new or weird to me.
Kyley: [00:33:00] right, right.
Eva: And
Kyley: Yeah, that's,
Eva: I love that part about our culture, my culture.
Kyley: yeah. Oh, it was part of my question was also wondering like if it's a, if it's something that shows up in your daily practice too, like, 'cause I know you Yeah.
Eva: Yeah. I mean, Rainbow, you're, I mean, I, I do feel like sometimes I'm like, I have this weird, weird fear also, though, of like, maybe some not so great ancestors too. And so I'm very Conscientious, but the thing about fear, I think that's very interesting. It's like, um, one of my teachers, Pilar Lesko said once, like fear isn't, can't be cultivated.
It's only infiltrated meaning. like it builds, if you have a fear, like that darkness will just build off of that, that on your own fear. But if you are like embodied in a sense of love, fear can't get in as much. And that always really resonated with me.
Kyley: Hmm.
Bowie: I
Kyley: That's interesting. Oh, sorry. Go [00:34:00] ahead. Rainbow.
Bowie: I was just saying I love
Kyley: I, um, I, I'm not a like formal anything person, but I, so I'm Irish American. Um. And, um, and I have been feeling my, and so I just like, and I feel close, like my culturally, my family was pretty like Irish Catholic, like, you know, it's not, um, it was present, right? Like in America, you can be like whatever ancestry, and it might not be actually like culturally relevant to your experience, but it was very culturally relevant when I was growing up. And so I do feel connected to it. And lately I have felt my ancestors really loud, but I feel my ancestors a lot to speak specifically to this, like healed and whole thing. I feel my ancestors a lot kind of almost showing me like. Yeah, sorry about [00:35:00] that. Here's where that baggage comes from, right? Like there was one time I might've told the story on the podcast before, but there was one time that I was, I don't know, going through some experience and the advice that I kept getting from a good friend of mine, when she would like her tap in and give me magical guidance was like, you really have to practice gratitude.
And I was like, okay, like I'm going to be good. Like my, like, you know, my, you know. Gratitude was like coming in from all angles. And every time I would sit down to feel practice gratitude, it felt so performative. Like it felt so forced. It was like, I want to feel grateful. And also I'm, it's like hollow.
Like I I'm, I'm, I'm just playing a game of gratitude. Right. And then finally one day I like kind of dropped in deeper and I just saw this long ass line of my Irish ancestors being like, well, you're so fucking tired. Like we have worked so hard and we never get what we need. And we're hungry and we're tired.
And these dumb British came and stole our land. Right? Like just this, like, um, like, uh, [00:36:00] It's just this like grievance and this grief and this, and like this real kind of and resentment that was like, stop asking me to be tired. I'm, I'm all these other things. And it was really beautiful. Cause it was like, I saw the like lineage of that pain. So it's not hold inhaled energy. Right. But also like showing up really with a tremendous love that was like, here you go, here's what's going on. And then. I was like, okay, cool. Also, we don't actually need to carry that anymore. Like we get to move on. We have like, you know, that's not actually our reality anymore.
And like, I love you and thank you for persevering through that. And also like, let's let go of the baggage that, that, that gifted us. Um, and I, that's to me, the way answer sheet work shows up the loudest is that they just kind of come on in and they're like, Hey, here's, here's where that came from.
Eva: That's interesting. I mean, I think that's a helpful gift too, right? Cause you, yeah. You gotta be like, why should I shit fucked up the way that it is? [00:37:00] Yeah.
Kyley: And it always feels like love, right? It doesn't, I think sometimes people feel maybe like the burden of their, it's just being like, fix this. Where for me, it's like, it feels just like them kind of explaining like, Oh yeah, here, here's why you are the way you are,
but now you can do different if you want.
Eva: Yeah.
Kyley: just as an example of not healed in whole, but still love.
Bowie: Yeah, it, it sounds like it's working, so
it
Kyley: Yeah.
Bowie: sounds like it's working. That's how I because I have had some teachers that are very like, everything has to follow this exact protocol. And I respect that. But I also I'm like, well, You know, we're all so different. So I think there is a way of, if you are in tune with yourself enough, you can tell like something's off or like, this is working for me, so let's go.
Kyley: Yeah. Yeah.
Eva: I mean, I'm sure we haven't even gotten to this yet, but I know that part of your work. Rainbow is about supporting people who are neuro divergent, which I also know [00:38:00] is something Kylie's really interested in. And so anyway, I just think it's, I don't know, it's a bit of a tangent, but just the respect of like, all of our brains work differently.
And so there's no, so yes, we're not all going to be able to follow like a really strict protocol. So, and I'm sure we can get into that in a bit, but sorry, I, I'm really. Focused on this on this altar thing and then we can like move on but I am curious like what's on your altar though. Are you open to speaking about that.
Bowie: Um, yeah,
Kyley: You never know where we're going to go. No one knows where we're going when they come on this show.
Bowie: I'm here. I'm strapped in here for the ride.
Eva: like how does one develop more of a, know, tangible practical practice. And again, it's not about like, I think I'm just curious how you do it, you know,
Bowie: Mm hmm. Mm hmm. Yeah. Yeah. Just speaking for myself. I have, um, yeah, so [00:39:00] I have some like things that I got from my grandmother. Um, I have a picture of a couple ancestors that I did know that I feel good about having on there. It feels right. Um, I haven't put everyone up there yet. I still feel like I need at some point, hopefully I'll get to the point where they're all up there.
But, um, and then I have, I have some pictures of my queer and trans ancestors, I have Marsha P. Johnson, Audre Lorde, Lou Sullivan, Leslie Feinberg, um, and then I have some like art sculptures that I've made that represent like energies or entities I've connected with, um, in like an ancestral healing class that I don't like know the names of I've never met
Eva: This
Bowie: and
then I also leave like food offerings
Eva: Mm. Yeah. This makes so much more sense to me. I think I could. Like, I, I [00:40:00] get this, like, it would be much easier for me to speak. Like if there are photos involved, I can go and, and I would, that would be a ritual that I think I'd be really enjoy the, like, that was the missing thing that I was like, I was like, Oh yeah.
As long as there's photos, I feel like I'm talking to somebody and then I could really let loose.
Bowie: Yeah, the photos help.
Eva: Yeah.
Kyley: and knowing you, Eva, that's like making it material, right? It's like bringing, making it practical and making it tangible, which is so much of your, your
Eva: Yeah. My, my thing.
Kyley: jam.
Eva: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Okay. So I'm actually really curious, Rainbow, about your work at, as a gender doula. That was really, I think, um, that just really spoke to both Kylie and I, um, when you reached out
Kyley: what happened is we got your email being like, Hey, I'd love to be on your show. And I forwarded gender doula, fuck yeah. To the rest of the team. Yeah. [00:41:00] Yeah.
Eva: Um, yeah, just whatever you want to share about it, but I think we're fascinated about and actually stoked that someone is doing this work.
Bowie: Yeah Yeah it's kind of like I feel like as a term it's new but it's an action That's been done for probably a really long time
but so there's a little bit of me like explaining to people what it is, but I Think of it as, you know, we have birth doulas, we have death doulas. So I see the work of a doula is tending these transitions. And I kind of feel like we need people to help tend all of our life transitions. Like I feel like in, you know, white supremacist culture, it's very like endless growth and it's not, we don't tend the cycles,
Kyley: Yeah. Yeah. Yes. Yes.
Bowie: it's just. Yeah, so that could be a whole nother tangent,
but [00:42:00] So for me, it's kind of something I've been doing since I came out as trans and people just come to me Like I joke with some of my friends like I've been out as trans for 10 years I'm an elder which is kind of fun, but it's also like I wish I knew more people who were Doing this longer than me, you know, I'm only in my mid 30s like so but um at the same time Yeah, it's something I've been doing for a while people have just come to me naturally, like I would like either in person or to have people reach out to me online and just like When people are going through especially when people are going through like a big gender transition starting identifying as trans, but at the same time, I think that Everyone could benefit from questioning the gender norms that they were raised with and reevaluating them because the gender norms. And, you know, are so rooted in white supremacist [00:43:00] culture, um, and the patriarchy. So, I think that it's a part of unraveling oppression. It's one of the many parts of unraveling oppression. So, um, yeah, so some of what I do is just providing education, or I'll sit with people and, like, work through things with them.
Like, I do a lot of, like, asking questions and just helping them. Being people to figure out like what resonates for them, um, and like finding their way, their path. Um, it also can look like support with just the steps of going through a gender transition for people who do want to change their name or get hormones or whatever.
There's a lot of little steps that can feel really overwhelming. So it can help to have someone be there with you while you're doing that.
And then alongside coming out to family and it's, I see it as. It can [00:44:00] be a really powerful and potent time to step into your power, and it can also be really overwhelming.
So I think having support, whether that's from a gender doula or community or going to groups or whatever, can be really important.
Kyley: Yeah.
Yeah.
I mean, I think everything you're saying, I love, I mean, really, anytime anyone wants to like fuck with gender, I'm just like, yes, please. So it's just, I want to soak up the conversation, but I think, um, I think one of the things I'm hearing you speak to is like these two equally beautiful, but distinct components, right.
Which is like is Inner this like emotional space of maybe just fucking asking questions, right? And, and, and asking questions that you don't have to immediately answer, right? I feel like that can be a big part of, um, just from friends I've, I've observed, um, is like. The tenderness of the space where you just have a lot of questions, you know, and where do you go with them?
Because the world wants answers, [00:45:00] right? Um, and a finite thing and a label. And, um, and I think I'm loving what you're speaking to about, like, the emotional space of. Discovery and questions and then also someone to hold your hand with like, Hey, here's the steps involved or like, this will make this step easier.
Or like, here's a script for your shitty uncle or like, whatever the thing is. Right. Um, and I just am loving the, the. The way you are acknowledging that they are different spaces because I think because we like labels and because we like fixity and we like action. Um, we sometimes I think, ask ourselves to do that place of. Inner questioning alone, you know, and it's like, then once you figured yourself out, then you can come and take action and be in community and, and, and, and so, um, yeah, I'm just relishing the way you're speaking to these as two parallel spaces.
Eva: Yeah. Yeah. And just the fact that [00:46:00] I mean being a gender doula, that's what I love about this is like, it really, to me, it harkens to this idea of death and rebirth, because I think you know when we think of doulas it's like bringing new life into, and I think that's what I, like, as you were saying just that big transitions in general like even like becoming a parent, all of a sudden your old life is.
Dying and you are birthing a new life. Right? And so, you know, it's almost as if to hold this, I mean, to acknowledge like the pain of the death, but also the celebration of the rebirth, um, just sounds like a really beautiful medicine that, um, yeah, I don't know that, I wonder if a lot of people aren't getting that support, you know?
Or could use more of it, rather.
Bowie: Yeah. Yeah, I do wish we had, I mean, I always dream of a world where everyone gets what they [00:47:00] need and we have communal care and all of that. And, um, yeah, it is, I think it's also, it ties into, um, the neurodivergent thing too, because I know a lot of people are coming into understanding their, themselves through ADHD or autism or neurodivergence.
And I think in both cases, there can be an ego death of, I thought, I was this one way or, or even like, uh, you know, masking or a persona that you created to fit in and realizing that that's not really it anymore. That's not going to come with you to the next stage of your journey. And. It can be really scary and vulnerable to release that.
And then there also can be the questions of, okay, if I don't do things that way anymore, how do I do things differently? What like is authentic for me? What do I actually want[00:48:00]
when I spent my whole life doing things I didn't want to do? And now I'm trying to figure out what I do want to do. What is my. unique medicine for the world. Um, so that's a little bit of where I see the parallels with the gender neurodivergence thing, especially because there are a lot of people who are both, there's like such a huge overlap.
Kyley: Yeah. I love what you're saying because there's just like, yeah, you peel off the layer of, of like the mask or the, you know, Required way of being and then there's just this like cavernous void of like, what the fuck am I going to, like, what am I going to create? And that can be so terrifying.
Right. And I have observed for myself, um, with, I have, I have ADHD and I was watching some woman's like snippet from her, like TED talk the other day.
And she was talking about how. She was like, you know, ambitious, high achieving woman who hit motherhood and all of her coping [00:49:00] mechanisms fell apart. And her, that was when she was diagnosed with ADHD. And I was like, Oh, interesting. This is an interesting story. Hmm. Um. And, um, and one of the things that I have watched, that's actually honestly been really uncomfortable for me is that I use shame and anxiety and like self critique as my motivators for so fucking long. And that was how I corralled my ADD, right. It was like, yeah, well, we're just going to be an asshole to ourself. And that's how we're going to get through this to do list. And so as I have learned to be compassionate and actually love myself, those tools didn't work anymore. And then it would create this, and it still does create it as this like new layer of rupture because I'm like, well, now I actually don't understand how to get these, these things still feel important.
Right. And, and also I am at a loss to how to how, because my old tools were punishment and if I'm not bringing them with me or they just don't even [00:50:00] work, even if I try them, I love myself enough that I reject them. But, um. I don't know, that's coming up for me as you're speaking of the, like, things falling off and then this just, like. Question fucking question mark,
Eva: Yeah.
Kyley: do you, do you find that just to like, be like, please just coach me on my show. But like, do you find that for other people, right? This moment of, or I guess how, what are some of the things that you find help folks either in gender or neurodivergence or at the intersection as they peel off layers and have to step into that, like, what the fuck is in this cavern?
Eva: In the unknown into the blank page.
Kyley: Into the unknown.
Okay. Sorry.
Bowie: I love that movie.
Kyley: Same.
Bowie: Um, yeah, that's so real. There's definitely not, not one answer, but there's multiple things coming to mind. So, [00:51:00] and then also getting my thoughts together as a neurodivergent person. Sometimes it's like taking.
What I'm feeling and translating it into words.
Kyley: Yeah, my clients all know the point where I get like so jazzed and I'm having like seven different ideas coming in at the same time. And
my words just short circuit and everyone,
I'm just like, I'll just give, just give me, just give me. And then
I, then I catch up. So,
Bowie: Okay. So let's see. I think that one of the themes that's coming up, you're talking about shame, being motivated by shame. Yeah. So I think that there's a piece of, okay, now I'm having two thoughts at once. There's okay. There's one piece of shifting to being motivated from a place of self love and self care. Um, I think Casey Davis talks about this in their book. Um, I forget the name struggle,
Eva: I don't know who that is.
Bowie: how to keep house when drowning. I think that's what
Kyley: my friend just recommended this to me.[00:52:00]
Eva: Wait, what's it called?
Bowie: Yeah. to keep house when drowning, I think,
Eva: Oh, interesting. Okay, okay.
Bowie: but it talks a lot about this, like motivating yourself from a place of self love and self compassion and viewing, shifting from a place of like, Oh, like my house looks terrible, like dah, dah, dah, dah, dah, to being like, okay, well, what's functional in my space? What, um, like how can I love myself by maybe cleaning off a corner of the counter? You know, I don't have, I don't have the energy to do everything, but I can clean off enough that I can cook. Or clean off a walkway to, you know, just depending on, like, the level of what you're working with, um, just shifting to motivating yourself from a place of self love, um, and a process for that.
I think a big thing is noticing when there's all or nothing thinking, which I think is an aspect of our culture. [00:53:00] by often social media too. And also is like associated with neurodivergence. So noticing when it feels like I need to be, do everything perfectly, or it's like not worth it at all.
And it kind of ties back into what you were saying before about, um, the baby steps, like, like when we're talking about building community and self love, it's like,
okay, how can I break this down? And this. Some of the things I might ask someone I'm working with is like, okay, so we have this big goal. How can we together break it down into manageable steps, you know, that you can take and viewing. Shifting from so focused on like everything needs to look this way or like the outcomes to shifting towards like what is a process, what is something you can do every day for people with ADHD, it can be really helpful to have things that you cycle through, because if you don't like to do the same thing every day to have some way where there's a level of structure, but then also [00:54:00] a level of like options or flexibility.
So maybe you have like five different ways you might respond in a moment and then you can like cycle through them or like. Yeah. You know, it's like you're really excited about this thing and it works for two weeks, like take note of it because once it falls off, then maybe two months later, you'll be like, oh, wait, this thing and then it'll work again for two weeks.
So you can like have things you can cycle through.
Kyley: Instead of it being the thing that's like, Oh, you weren't consistent. It was like, no, that was just like, I, I made myself a little chart. I'm doing healing some, um, leg and hip stuff. And I made myself this chart and I texted a friend. I was like, I will be obsessed with this for the next five days. And then you'll never hear me mention it again.
Right. And an old me would have been like, see, you're not consistent. And instead of like, this gave me exactly what it needed. Another thing that I have found really. Like house domesticity is like a real. Edge place. It's, it's tricky for me. Um, but I make a list. I've started making a list on my whiteboard of like [00:55:00] four chores and it's like, pick one today. Right. But to your point of variety, right. It's it's what's been interesting is. The list has been really important because it's like, if I just have to do the dishes, then I'm mad and rebellious Kylie comes out and she's like, fuck the dishes. Right. But if it's like, I could do dishes or laundry or whatever, then, then I get to pick, um, and, um, The whiteboard is so, it's just funny because it's so simple.
It's the kind of thing that I would previously be like, you don't like just do it. Like, why do you need a, why do you need, it was like, I was really cruel to myself for like needing these crutches, like other, you shouldn't need this. Right. And this is such a silly thing. Sometimes I also write what leftovers are in my fridge.
Cause once they go in the fridge, they're never, they never existed.
And so I will sometimes come down to be like, why why does it just say like. Chicken and black beans and I'm like, cause otherwise they're gone [00:56:00] forever. So, um, yeah, I just, I, I, I, I'm, I love what you're saying about variety, but also, and also like, let yourself use the stupid, like, however stupid and simple it needs to be like, Great.
Bowie: Yes. If it works for you, then it works. Period. Like,
and another thing I was thinking about was, like, changing the perspective shift of, like, what does success look like? What does, like, shifting away our expectations? I think this ties into both the gender stuff and the neurodivergent stuff, because I know with, like, gender norms, like, there's these life stages that we're taught, like, you need to achieve, like, you need to, like, Where everyone's might be different, but it may be like your family expects you to like go to college and get married, then have babies and dah, dah, dah, dah. And like, there's nothing wrong with that. But then for people who don't do those steps, it's like, well, or like the [00:57:00] steps don't go as planned or whatever. It's like, Oh, am I succeeding in these goals? So I think a lot of queer and trans people have to come up with like, different set of expectations and being like, wait, like, I don't even believe that this is the best or only way.
So why am I beating myself up for not living up to these standards? Um, so I think that can take a level of like getting real about these expectations you have of yourself. And that can also apply to like neurodivergent stuff. Like where are these places that you're like holding yourself to these standards? And then you can think about, like, do I even believe in this?
Kyley: Yeah. Yeah.
Bowie: And instead, what is a belief that I like something that I actually do want to hold myself up to? Um,
Kyley: And to go back to the like yawning void of our creation, it's. I think sometimes we've been so, we've been so inundated with what we are supposed to want or [00:58:00] supposed to be or supposed to accomplish that I think it can be, sometimes we are, we can be disconnected from, I think the answer to, right. We feel trapped by the, by the, by the timeline or the list because we haven't actually had space to even. Drop into what ours might be.
Eva: hmm.
Kyley: And then there's the, again, there's this moment of like, well, I've let something go, but I haven't caught on something new yet.
So we're just free falling,
Eva: Yeah. I mean, and
Kyley: where it feels like it would be great to have a gender doula
Eva: right, exactly, yeah. Yes, exactly. But I would say, and this is interesting because this goes back to like the self love tending to the self piece is that in my experience every time I've had to like disrupt or a better way of saying it like, um, dispute some belief that I've had.
Even if I don't believe it, like, let's just say marriage, [00:59:00] like, I don't, I think it's wonderful, but also I don't think everyone needs to get married. You know what I mean? So it's like, there's that work of dislodging these beliefs, bring up grief in some way, or they bring up, um, they bring up stuff, they bring up emotions.
And so then, or, or maybe it's like this othering, it could be a bunch of things. For me, it's like this othering of like, oh, yeah. That I don't believe this, but if I, if I separate myself from this tradition, it makes me feel isolated or it makes me feel broken or like I'm wrong or I'm a weirdo or whatever the story might be.
And then it's like, okay, go back to my tools. And what really is at the center of all of this is like noticing my stories of where I don't belong or where I'm disconnected from people, right? So much of this is about if I'm broken, it means I'm disconnected, which is not. The truth of our reality, because in reality we are all connected.
And so, yeah, just comes back to that tending to the inner child, like self love piece.[01:00:00]
Bowie: Yeah, absolutely. Yeah, I'm had. You're talking about the whiteboard. I pulled mine out too. I was like, I need to take notes so I can remember what I'm going to say. Um
Eva: Oh yeah, we should have warned you. Sorry. We are, we go, we go all over the place. So I, yeah, I always have notes because I'm like, wait, we got to go back. We got to go back.
Bowie: like, wait. Oh yeah, this is the only thing. Oh yeah, this. I love it. Um yeah, I feel like there's two themes coming up as you both were talking is the curious mind. And like. You were talking about how we can have these expectations that can prevent us from seeing the solution that might be right in front of our face because we're like, we have to do it this way. So like, that's part of what I try to do when I'm asking questions is like get people into a place of like interested curiosity and being like, well, what? what? about this? What about that? Like, let's explore. Let's start brainstorming. Play. Let's play. Like, how we can think, we can learn more quickly through play.
So getting into a place of, like, curiosity and, [01:01:00] like, exploring different options can really help. And then, yes, I love what you're saying. It's so relevant about how, when we start to deconstruct these beliefs, there can be a lot of emotions that come up there. And, um. There can also be a lot of anger for all the times that you've, when you look back at your life and you see, wait, like, That wasn't okay, you know, but that time that adult told me to do things this way or that I was bullied in school or whatever, that can be challenging is dealing with all the anger that can come up with, um, looking back in your life and reevaluating these things.
So, which also is reminding me to say, be patient with yourself. Like for anyone who's listening that's going through this, please. As much as you're able. I know being patient can be hard to like be patient with yourself. It is a big process and it is no [01:02:00] small feat to go through a transformation like this of becoming more authentic. Um, and it's okay to ask for help and to reach out for support and to need whatever accommodations or crutches you need. Um, and those are the things that we may not see. You know, you may see someone you online and see all the beautiful things that they're doing, but you may not see the work that they've gone through or the times they've had like a really hard night or year or whatever.
Kyley: All the, all the ugly crying that they did to their beloveds to be at the moment where they're like sharing their story with grace and power and strength. Yeah. Yeah.
Yeah.
Ugly crying is also grace and power and strength to be clear,
but
Eva: Yeah. Yeah. Preach.
Kyley: can I ask you to, um, speak to [01:03:00] if, I guess, to return to someone who might be listening, right? Who might be. in some place of, of transition and maybe a particular feeling vulnerable in the process and what you, what you would offer as essential ways to navigate and love yourself through it.
Bowie: For someone who's new to a transition, like some steps through, okay, okay. I think we talked about some already, but one thing that I'm thinking about is kind of coming back to being patient, um, remembering, trying to take steps to look at your situation from the long view
and that [01:04:00] change and transformation doesn't happen overnight and you don't have to learn. everything right away. There's so much information out there. We are in this technological age, and there's so much to learn.
And sometimes when we start to figure something out, we want to like learn every single thing about About it, which I get, especially when you have hyper fixations and you get excited, but there can also be the level of feeling pressure to figure it all out and to have all the labels and the words and to have it be very clear. And like, this is what it is. And one thing that I always say is that. Labels are helpful until they aren't. So yes, it can be really, really liberating to say I'm non binary and I'm not alone in this and I can find community and there's so much there. And [01:05:00] also it, if you're not careful, the other side of it can be, Oh, can I wear this if I'm non binary or if I'm a trans woman or whatever you're identifying as. If we get too stuck on the identity, it can start to limit us
and. You know, we're living in this culture and this colonial language and like, the language that we use to describe ourselves is so limited already. So trying to fit into that language can sometimes feel like we're trying to like squeeze ourselves into a box that doesn't fully fit, like it mostly fits, but doesn't fully fit. So I guess there's like the two halves of that, of you don't have to learn it all right now. And also like, it might, it might be controversial, but I'm like, it's not as important as you might think to have a label.
Kyley: Yeah.
Eva: No, I mean, you're absolutely right. That's, that's, you're, you're right in that it's helpful until it's [01:06:00] not like with all things. Um, there's like a shadow side to it, I guess, is one way you could say it's like, it's, It's helpful, but with all things, once you take it to the extreme. then it's actually toxic.
And that's true of basically everything, right? It's like you could get really into your health, but you take that to the extreme and you become hyper focused and then it's toxic. You are so spiritual and you take that to the extreme and you're like disconnected from reality, you know? So I think that It's both and but, um, I think it depends on where you are on your journey.
If you are, okay, I mean, let's take this into like race or something. Like, if I'm in, if I'm in my, like, claiming my race and being Asian phase, someone telling me that my race Is a label that doesn't matter is going to piss me the fuck off because I'd be like, you're not respecting my [01:07:00] journey right now.
But the truth is, if I only saw myself as just an Asian person, that is very limiting and I don't want to have to live my life through my race. And so I think eventually, once I graduate out of this phase, I could hear that person more clearly and I could be like, oh, I see what you're saying. Like, I don't have to be so offended anymore.
Does that make sense?
Bowie: Yeah, I appreciate that. Yeah, because yeah, I'm not I'm not trying to say that you shouldn't identify with whatever resonates with you. But yeah, I like exactly what you're saying. It's like to the extreme, it can be harmful, especially when I think, yeah, especially what I'm trying to feel into is like when people feel pressure to pick a box and to choose. Sometimes you need to step away from it for a minute and Focus on other things and just play and experiment and, you know, do things that bring you joy and like make art. And, you know, I think we don't have to figure it all out in our minds [01:08:00] right away and yeah, and there's, there's levels. Cause sometimes you do need that label and you have to identify with it very strongly and that's like the stage that you're in.
And I totally respect that.
Kyley: I'm also thinking about how, um, the, um, like we're, we're, we're freedom seeking beings, right? This is something you speak about really beautifully, but right? Like, we are, we're seeking freedom. And that's why we undertake these big trend, big transitions in life often, right. Is like seeking the thing that is on the other side or, or, or seeking the like deeper version of ourselves that gets to live on that other side. But, but the through line, I think for so many of us, it's like, we just want to be fucking free to be ourselves. Right. And what I'm hearing both of you speak to is the way. Labels when we hold on to them too tightly can become their own prison, which then is actually [01:09:00] working against the very thing that you're pursuing and, and sometimes very, very boldly and bravely.
And so, yeah, I'm the, the, the phrase is coming to my mind is like, is this. Is this label helping me feel free, or is this like, is this, is, is is this like, and I think about this, for example, with like how I relate to ADD as like one example. Because I can see the times where I'm like using it as like, um, I'm like, victim me about it.
Like, I'm like, I'm just bad at all these things because Right. Or I can see the times where I can be really compassionate with myself. And then it's a place where like freedom is showing up. But I think of it as, um. Listeners, I'm opening and closing my hand a lot because the phrase that I always think of is like, like holding it tight, like holding it loosely, right?
Like, am I, am I holding it loosely? And then the other questions coming to my mind, as I'm asking this question is like, what are the identities that I hold very tightly and that is motherhood. And we're not getting into that right now. So, [01:10:00] um,
Eva: Yeah, yeah,
I just like, sorry. Another way I see this playing out. It's just, it's just funny how. Yeah, we can take something we take anything and distort it. And just 1 more example of that, because I remember working with someone getting on a call with someone not that long ago, who really identified as being like a social justice warrior.
And that was like their whole life. And then, and feeling. Actually trapped by that and the irony of how, and like the rules that they felt like they had to follow because if they weren't following all these rules and if they bought something from Amazon, then it meant that they were like a monster. You know what I mean?
And now it's just another example of like, they're fighting for freedom and yet this thing is like, you're not free here. So it's just a helpful question and lens I think to work through. Yeah.
Bowie: I had a similar moment, actually, because I, for a long time, really identified as an activist and [01:11:00] I was doing a ritual with Loki and was like, what do I need to give up to be more authentic? And the answer was your identity as an activist. And I was like, what?
Eva: Oh, that must, that must've like, yeah, that must've hurt.
Kyley: You know, okay. I don't know if you've listened to podcasts where you've heard me reference that I hang out with Loki all the time. And do you know how much shit I have got from when he first showed up? He was like, Oh, you have your reusable straw with you. Really good job. That's really good. I got. So much shit. I'm really glad I'm not the only one, but it was exactly this. It was like, you're performing and trapped by this, right? It is not, it's not coming from this place of it's like, it's a proving to yourself that you're good. That was a lot of it for me. And, uh, and it's, uh, and it's, it's not coming from, it's not a sovereign action. Um, I, I also love low key being like, okay, y'all have been hanging out long enough. I would like to be part of this [01:12:00] conversation.
Eva: So how did that, how did, yeah. How did you respond to that, uh,
Bowie: Well, for first, I was like, kind of pissed off and surprised. I was shocked. I was like, what? This is like the best part of me, which is probably the problem. You know,
Eva: Right.
Kyley: Exactly. Exactly.
Bowie: like there was a way where. Yeah, it kind of ties, I think, back to what you were even talking about with like your journey with your racial identity and like, I think for me also identifying like as trans and I was like, I only wanted to hang out with like queer and trans people, which I still mostly do, but I think there was a way where I was really like seeing everything in a binary, in a black and white, like there's these people and then these people, there's the good people and the bad people.
And it's like, wait, it's actually a lot more nuanced. Then that and being able to hold the [01:13:00] nuance of it, um, has been a journey, but I mean, and like, yeah, there is still space and room for like me wanting to hang out with other people who are politically minded, that are abolitionists, you know, like, I love that it's nourishing for me. And I think there is a level of, if I cut people off instantly and don't give them a chance, then we're never going to have that conversation about. The carceral system, like,
like then I'm not even opening up to a relationship with them that might change both of us in the process. Yeah. And there was the hierarchy supremacy, like all of that.
I needed to let it all go.
Kyley: There's also, I'm thinking too about going back to this thing of like freedom and sovereignty. I think there is so often there is a phase where it's like, this is new enough that I, I need, I need to be like bolstered by. Um, you know, I need to be [01:14:00] bolstered by people who are maybe like minded or have done this before, right?
Like, you know, you're speaking to being in a phase of like, I just want to be with queer people, right? Like, because, you know, and I, I felt that so many times in my life about different things of like, This place that I'm in is fragile and new in a, in a way, maybe not always new, but there's something fragile about it.
It's like, I need to be around people who can make me feel safe in this identity. Right. And then we get to step into a phase where we can loosen up like then, right. Then it's safe to loosen the grip on it. But I do think there, there can be, maybe this is just my hyper fixation, but I do think there can be this phase where it's so fucking generative to just be like, here's a whole bunch of people who are a lot like you.
And they are just like, Pouring their love down on you and saying like, it is safe to be you as you are. And that's such a fucking gift. And also there's a special kind of freedom when you [01:15:00] can see that you get to like that, that love lives inside of you. And so you can then like go out into the bigger, wider world, continuing to be that version who knows themselves to be beloved.
Eva: Yeah.
Bowie: Yeah.
Eva: I mean, I love this conversation because ultimately this comes down to like, you know, the spiritual shit, which is that we're not any of this stuff. We're not any of this, you know, like, let's just get like the, the capital T truth is like, whatever we are, it's both, you know, it's paradox. It's, it's rainbow what you're saying.
It is really holding space for the nuances. It's like, um, we are this human body, but also we're like, we're not, we're not. Not any of this. And so it's holding space for, for both things to both conflicting things to exist at the same time, which, you know, can be like a mindfuck. But, um, and also none of it's wrong.
Like [01:16:00] none of it's wrong. It's like, you want your community and you really want to identify with something at a point because that's actually safer and it helps you. Like, that's not wrong. And then you want to let go of the identity and be like, Oh, I don't want to care about that anymore.
Kyley: And then it's also
a cycle, right? Like the numbers is linear. That's capitalism. That thinks things are linear, right? Like then it's just like spring again. And you're like, Oh, give me my people. Fuck everybody else. You
Eva: yeah.
Bowie: Yes, it's true.
Kyley: Yeah.
Bowie: Yeah, even with like, Uh, neurodivergence, like for me, like, I feel like my most recent identity is like autism, like identifying with autism through conversations with my therapist and all of that. And it has been so liberating because it's like, Oh, like, Oh, this is why like, I'm learning about my sensory needs.
Like, Oh, I'm overwhelmed in the grocery store because the lights are so bright and the music. And like, Oh, like if I wear a hat and earplugs, like there's things I can do to feel better. Like, this is great. Um, And I [01:17:00] feel like there's always that, I don't know, there's always that part of me that always wants to trouble everything and like, make, that's always questioning everything, but it's like, okay, well, this is the word that we have in this culture at this time that was created by the DSM and I, you know, as someone who Has a master's in social work, like I know there's a lot of power in mental health healing and the profession, and I also know there's a lot of fucked up stuff there too. It's both. Um, so, yeah, I,
Kyley: can I
Bowie: yeah, go ahead.
Kyley: label in case you want one? Because as you were just sharing, like About the delight of the self care that comes when we, you know, with the, with a quote unquote diagnosis and also the part of you that like has all these like, but, but I got to poke at this. I just heard the phrase sacred rebel, and that I just I want to offer that because that feels actually very true to like [01:18:00] all of these threads right like. You're a sacred rebel. That's what you're here to do is like come in and fuck shit up and ruffle some feathers and, and, and invite us into our kind of sacred act of rebellion. So if you'd like that one, you can have that one.
Eva: Yeah.
Bowie: Yeah, it's fine. I like, yeah, I like it. And it also makes me think about just like, trickster energy and Loki
Kyley: Yeah. Yeah, no, he's like, that was my suggestion. We all know that, right? She's pretending it's her idea.
Eva: I'm
Bowie: it's like why,
Eva: yeah, go ahead.
Bowie: oh, yeah, it just makes me think like, well, why is It's like this way of thinking and being divergent, like divergent from what, like,
Kyley: Yes.
Bowie: like, why is being trans such a big deal? Like as long as we have recorded human history, there've been people who've lived outside of a gender binary, like, [01:19:00] so somewhere along the way, people decided that this wasn't cool anymore and tried to either make us fit in or eradicate us.
And it's like, but we're still here. We've always been here.
Kyley: And maybe the reason it's so threatening is because the whole illusion of gender is total bullshit and people who come along and insist that they cannot and will not abide by it threaten to expose that the whole thing's fucking made up and bullshit.
Eva: Yeah.
Kyley: to my talk about gender. Look, I paid a lot of money for that master's in gender studies. I gotta give out. I gotta give that one line every once in a while to make grad school. Kylie Felix. She got her a time. Well spent.
Eva: I'm sorry. I'm actually hanging on this thing this thing from like completely irrelevant, but I'm going to try wearing. Your plugs in a hat next time I go to the supermarket because I get so overstimulated by the supermarket specifically. I don't know what it is, but, uh, I mean, when you said that, I was like, I, [01:20:00] that's genius.
Like I need to try. I'm like exhausted by the time I get home from the supermarket. And so anyway, sorry, you guys are talking about something else. And I was just like tucking this little piece of advice into my, into my pocket.
Bowie: No, it's real. Well, I mean, they I've heard, I mean, I haven't studied this myself, but I've heard that they actually intentionally make it kind of overstimulating. So you'll just impulse buy more, um, which is like even harder for people who have like heightened sensitivity. But I also have this whole. Theory about, and I'm not alone in this, but like, why do we make things that are so dysregulating for humans? And I feel like it's so interconnected with the ways that we extract from the land and from human bodies and like from each other. And I do believe that like, we could like create technology. in a way that is nourishing for both ourselves and the land. [01:21:00] So that's just something I think
Eva: Wait, can you, can you speak about that more? Like, can you give an example?
Bowie: Okay. Yeah. So like, I mean, just, okay. Just thinking about like, what's coming to mind is like, I live in a city and I love living here, but then also like, it's a lot, like there's a lot of. Loud beeping sounds. There's a lot of paved roads. There's a lot of plants here that aren't from here. Um, like someone was telling me about how, you know, a lot of the native Californian plants go, um, or at least in the area, I'm in go dormant in the summertime, but we've brought in a lot of like Mediterranean plants and other plants.
So it like looks like. You know, people talk about how there's no seasons out here, even though there are, but the seasons are different, but, like, we've just created this almost, like, Disneyland world, and, um, and just, like, I'm thinking about, like, being in an office space where you're in a [01:22:00] cubicle with fluorescent lights and how, like, that impacts your state, like, your mental, emotional state, and I've, I've done that, and it's, like, why do we create this way?
Why do we have life? like companies where like the places where the customers come in are beautiful, but the places where the workers are are ugly. Um,
Eva: Yeah.
Bowie: to me, I'm like that feels connected to like extract, like viewing workers as resources to be extracted from. And it also feels like it's related to viewing the land as a resource to be extracted from because I do believe that if we create it. In ways that we're in more right relationship with the land. Um, we probably would be less like have less dysregulating spaces.
Kyley: Yeah.
Eva: Oh my god, I think that is so interesting and so On point. And oh my God, that could be [01:23:00] like a whole nother podcast episode. But I think what I'm hearing you say is like, we will, what, what I'm here, what, like, what's arising in me is like, we are the land, like we are the earth and how we treat the earth is how we treat ourselves and how we treat ourselves is how we treat the land.
And so it's like, oh, fuck, no doubt. Like, yeah, it is true. There is a huge correlation between. Um, I mean, I guess we just all treat it all the, all the shitty behaviors are just applied to all different areas of life. And so, yeah, that's really actually really interesting to see it from that perspective.
Kyley: reminder of like, we could build anything, but none of this is required. None of this is the required exam. I mean, that's one of the things I think, you know, one of the, you know, COVID is many things, but something I think beautiful in that experience is the reminder of like, no one needs to be in an office, right?
Like, like we can build, [01:24:00] we could actually just completely upend the system and build something new. Um, this is like. As opposed to like, well, this is just the way things are.
Eva: Yeah. Hmm.
Bowie: Yeah, yeah, I think 1, I remember when I was reading braiding sweetgrass, there was a chapter where she was talking about. Yeah, she's talking about, um, and I forget. The details of it, but I just remember the part of. People were making baskets and they were, I believe they were like hammering the wood with a stone and it created this like thudding rhythmic sound and just like, Oh, like, imagine how regulating that would be. Or at least that's what I think when I hear that like or what if we had like communal practices that like regulated and soothes our nervous system. And that's one thing like. Uh, I've been learning a lot with autism is [01:25:00] often what we really need is like physical practices, and I think all of us need that, um, like practices to help us get into our body through either like deep pressure, um, regulation, um, Like listening to things that are soothing, um, like balancing exercises, all these things.
And I'm like, well, all of these things are found in different cultures throughout the world. It makes sense to me that people would have practices of like singing and dancing and like communal rituals to like move through things. So I just think like the science now is just a new way of describing like things that people have always known.
Kyley: yeah,
yeah.
Bowie: but yeah, and then I'm also like, well, okay, so how can I. In my own world, in my own community, create that as much as I have the power to do so.
Eva: Yeah.
Kyley: That's a pretty fucking great intention.
Eva: Yeah. And I really think it's, [01:26:00] we're not powerless because I think a lot of it is.
Like, uh, Really starts with questioning our own beliefs. Basically, a lot of the work that I think we're all shepherding other people through. But, um, Oh, God, what's the word? I keep forgetting the word. When you pull something apart, you undo something.
Kyley: unravel, dissect,
Eva: Um, gosh. Um, um, oh, gosh, Rainbow, you said it earlier.
Bowie: Are we pulling apart a knot? What are we pulling apart?
Kyley: capitalism, racist,
Eva: Okay. I think it's just, I don't know. I think I'm just having a brain fart, but anyway, um, I'm doing the stories that we have and I think, and getting out of the, you know, the binary and like the, the way that things are supposed to be and like the milestones that we're supposed to reach. It's like, we have to start, um, [01:27:00] disrupting these stories in ourselves.
I think that's kind of where it starts from and then it spreads. Yeah. There's a better word for what I'm trying to say. And I mean, there's one listener out there who's like, I know what she's trying to say, but I can't think of the word right now. Okay.
Kyley: to your DM, where you give us
Eva: Yes. Okay.
we feeling?
Kyley: should we do Joy?
Eva: Yeah. Let's do a round of joy.
Kyley: Rainbow?
Eva: Yeah.
Kyley: That's something that's bringing you joy right now.
Bowie: Yeah. We're ready to the joy. Okay. This has been so lovely. Um, something that's bringing me joy currently is platonic cuddling.
Kyley: Mmm. Mm hmm.
Bowie: really lovely, um,
which I feel like ties, it ties back into just like co regulation, um, like physical, taking care of our physical bodies, um, and then also like [01:28:00] disrupting the idea of where we need to get support from.
It's like community friendship can be so fruitful. So yeah.
Kyley: Yeah. I mean, as a mom of two small kids, cuddling is the jam. Like I think about that all the time. Like, like it just, it, it like touch just like settles our body. It's touch that is like, you know, safe is just such a incredible tool for your whole body, just feeling safe, like just soft. Yeah.
Eva: Oh, I just love this, but I love the idea of platonic cuddling specifically like that. Why isn't this like a normal, I mean, a normal thing like this should just be, well, I guess, you know, some people are very Private about their personal space, I suppose, but I wish we lived in the world where [01:29:00] this was just like an everyday given.
Um,
Kyley: My college, I'm sorry, Eva, I've interrupted you.
Eva: yeah, well, I, so I went to this like ecstatic dance thing and at the end, I did just like, randomly cuddle with a person and I was like, this is. Like, I feel like this would have been the way in ancient times or something. I don't know when we weren't so like disconnected from each other, but now it's like, you know, it's more like you have to go to Burning Man and be on shrooms.
Bowie: You have to go through all that.
Kyley: Yeah. Yeah, I am. My college roomie and I, whenever we're together, we just spent the whole time. That's our, that's our jam. We just cuddle the whole time, which is hilarious because everywhere we go, people just think we're a couple. And it just, it just cracks us up because it's like, um, Because it's just, because that's always the read, right.
It's like, Oh, I like, like, this is a person that I am [01:30:00] so safe with. Right. That's really what it is. Like, I'm so safe with you. Like all the parts of me are safe with you. And so like, I can just sit here and like drape myself into you and, um, And it's really interesting how much, yeah, we're, we're both always just fascinated to observe how much the world, you know, only can own, that's only legible as like, they must be boning.
Eva: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. You're right though. It does require a level of safety, which I think is why it's not the norm because, you know, Understandably, I can understand why someone, especially, you know, they're like, I don't want to just, I don't know. I don't know you. Like, I don't know if you're safe. And so there's a lot of that too, but I thought of the word I was thinking of earlier, which is deconstruct.
Thank you. Very simple point. Going back to the point that I was trying to make is that I think building this new world that you're talking about, rainbow really starts with us deconstructing our own limiting beliefs or whatever our indoctrinations yada, yada. So there it [01:31:00] is.
Bowie: Okay.
Kyley: okay. I have 2 joys. 1 is, um, today. We went to, um, Plymouth, Massachusetts, um, and then I gave my kids, my like decolonial version of history. I was like, so people here are going to tell you this is the first town. It is not first. Um, but we went into this little shop and they had, do you guys remember, I don't know if you were kids, they had these, um, These, uh, like magic wands that had glitter, I had a glitter inside, glitter and gel.
And so you like tip them and the glitter and the little sparkly stars fall. You tip them
and they go their way.
Eva: Yeah.
Kyley: I had one as a kid. I was obsessed with it. My little brother like whacked it on a pole and it broke like 24 hours in. So I haven't. Extra soft spot for them. Right. And so my daughter picks one up and [01:32:00] she's like, can I have this?
And I was like, yes, of course you need this because we have to repair it in her kid, Kylie. And then so really like paid for them. And I want to just hand them and I was like, wait, I've been thinking about how to like, infuse and infuse more like magic for them. Right. Like in my own spiritual practices, um, because I'm not interested in like, this is the rule and this is the way, but also, and for me, Internal.
I still kind of haven't figured out a way to always incorporate them. Other than when we do candle magic, cause they're like, yes, let's light things on fire. Um, but, but even that's something I do like once a year, I don't do that for it. It's not really my anyways. Um, But I was like, went to just pay and then I was going to just hand it to them.
I was like, wait. And I made a whole like ritual in the store. I was like, these are magic wands. And I like took them out of their plastic. And I was like, put your hands on them. And I made them like envision that they were full of love. And then I made them envision that the [01:33:00] earth was filling their body up with love.
And I was like, now you have to pour that into your magic wand. And they were like, okay,
Eva: Oh my God. I love this.
Kyley: and then I was like, okay. And then I made them. Like set some intention and I was like, okay, this is very powerful. You have to promise. They were only going to use them for love. And they were like, okay. I think my son like immediately forgot about it, but my daughter was like, so in the whole walk back, she's like, can I do magic in the car? And I was like, yeah, of
course we got home and she goes, can we, can we do magic with the magic wand? So we like made up some spell about, um, teddy bears. I do think that her spell is that her teddy bears talk to her like Doc McStuffins. So she, I'm not sure how the whole thing will unravel for her in terms of like, feeling like her prayer was answered, but. It was just so frigging cute and delightful. And I really, really jazzed that I like felt the impulse to like make a ritual instead of just like, Oh yeah, here's a toy. I was like, no way this is now [01:34:00] important and special. And that birdie was like all over it. So, uh, yeah, her cute little, like magic in the car. pretty much joy.
Eva: And you're like, fuck. Yeah. Of course. Do you know who your mom is?
Kyley: Right, right, right.
Eva: Um, but I love that because I think, I don't know, that speaks to how, like, we can make anything special. It's just like, if we remember it, or if we have that association, or if we. Yeah. And anyway, that's like, I hope it inspires other listeners who have kids or who, whatever are around kids to be like, Oh, you can make this sacred.
And you just, how do you make it sacred? You like, you make it sacred. You know, you just pour your attention into it. Yeah.
Kyley: Because I, that's exactly it. I have my, literally my spiritual practice is that there are no fucking rules, right? Like that is, that is the whole thing for me. Like ritual is that there are no rituals unless I make them. I'm the ritual. And so it is really confusing to teach that. I mean, innately, no one understands chaos better than a four year old, right?
But also it feels [01:35:00] sometimes like, yeah. Confusing for me because I'm like, well, it would be helpful if I was just like, this is what we, these are our rituals, this is what our rituals. And these are like, you were talking about your ancestors, like the ancestor ritual, Eva. And so sometimes I long for that, but it also doesn't feel that feels like just a performance.
And I want to show them my real, my real spiritual truth, which is like, yeah, we just made a magic wand. That's supercharged. That's made out of plastic that we paid 5. You know what I mean?
Like now it's real and sacred because we picked it to be sacred. So, yeah.
Bowie: I love how playful it is too. It feels so like my inner child is like, ah, I want a magic wand.
Kyley: Right.
Bowie: That sounds great.
Kyley: Yes. Yes. I hope you see a like goofy kids magic wand in the next couple of days that you can add to your add to your stash,
Eva: Um, lovely. Okay. And I will share my joy for. This week. Well, so actually, [01:36:00] by the time this, this is going to air in the fall. So this isn't when your listeners, when you're listening to this, this will be an outdated joy, but it's a joy right now. So I am house sitting. I'm no longer in the airstream. So for people who've been following along, I've been living in this airstream.
And now, The whole plan was we knew it was going to be too hot in the summer in Austin, Texas for the airstream. But the whole plan was like, Eliza was going to travel. And so I was going to be in the house and it's, I don't know, like, well, on one hand I'm like, Oh, I missed the airstream, which is a good sign to be like, Oh, I actually like really enjoyed living in that.
But also I'm like, Oh my God, it's so nice to have, like, I don't know, I don't even know what it is. Like wood floors, just like little things. And nice to be in a house. And also I have the house all to myself, which as an introvert is a huge delight. So I, I can't even explain the joy. It's just more of this idea of like spaciousness, which, you know, Kylie is something that has always spoken to me.
So yeah, [01:37:00] summer, I, it's like, it's like kind of, I kind of feel like, um, what's his name? Macaulay Culkin in Home Alone. And like the parents are, we're just like, I'm just like running around, like jumping on the bed and like eating gummy bears though. That's not actually happening, but it's that kind of vibe.
So it's nice.
Bowie: But you could, if
Eva: Oh, exactly. But I could if I wanted to. Actually, that's what that, you know, that's what it is. It's that I could do whatever the fuck I want. And not that like, I can't normally, but there are little things like I'm walking around naked all the time now. And you know, you just can't do that when you have a housemate.
So, or I guess you, I mean, I'm sure Eliza like truly wouldn't care, but, um, you know, it's like those
Kyley: a different level of Yes.
Yes.
Eva: Yeah. That's bringing me joy.
Kyley: Love this for you. Rainbow. Can you please tell listeners how they can work with you, how they can find you, who specifically you want to come and slide into your DM so that [01:38:00] you can shepherd them along?
Bowie: Yeah. Um, so I have my one on one offerings. Um, if you're local to Long Beach, California, we could meet in person or we can meet virtually if you're somewhere else. Um, and you can find me at my website, rainbowchrysaliscoaching. com. Unfortunately, I made my website hard to spell, but I think if you get it close enough, Google will help you.
Eva: It'll, it'll be in the show notes, folks.
Kyley: Yeah.
Bowie: Yeah. And then my, uh, I'm on the socials, mostly on Instagram, even though I'm taking a summer solstice social media break
for a couple of weeks. Um, and yeah, I like am interested in working with people really who are Wanting to step into a deeper level of authenticity with their gender expression, with their neuro expression, um, people who are going through transitions [01:39:00] or want to support someone else in their life who's going through a transition like that, or want to learn more about this work, um, or just anyone who really feels like they resonate with anything I said today. Um, and I'm planning on some Me and my co planner, Mixed Lifestyling, are planning an event called Gender Play, where we all get together and play with gender. So, probably will be happening by the time this posts, I don't know. Um, and then I have another person I'm planning a Neurodivergent Affirming Spiritual Practices workshop with.
So, I think if you get on my mailing list, check out my stuff, you can see what's the most up to date.
Kyley: Amazing. Thank you. Thank you.
Eva: Awesome.