Bestselling author Melody Beattie comes on the show to teach us about codependency, loving yourself more than others, setting limits, and generally being a badass.
Bestselling author Melody Beattie comes on the show to teach us about codependency, loving yourself more than others, setting limits, and generally being a badass.
Connect with her here:
https://melodybeattie.com/
https://www.facebook.com/writermelodybeattie/
Twitter: @MelodyBeattie
Insta: @authormelodybeattie
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📍 Hey, hello Universe fans. It's Eva here, and this episode is one that feels so near and dear to my heart. We have an amazing guest that feels like kind of a big deal. Um, Melanie Beatie, some of you may already be familiar with her work. She is the author of the quintessential book on Codependency.
Codependency. No More. , it's been re-released with some updates that she talks about in the show. And, um, when her team reached out to us to have her be on the show, I was freaking out. . I like immediately messaged check Kylie. And I was like, oh my god. Melanie PD wants to be on our show because, um, this work on co-dependency.
I, I, I, I, I own her a book and I, you know, reference. and then what I've learned from it often in my own life because co-dependency is a really big deal amongst, um, people whose lives have been affected by alcoholism and addiction. Um, which if you've been listening to the show for a while, you know that that is my experience.
Um, but also co-dependency is a word and a, and a, and. Topic. I think that has become really prevalent. So it's not just within the circle of people who are struggling with, um, addiction or people whose loved ones are struggling with addiction. It's, you know, toxic relationships. It's toxic friendships. It's, it can happen in work.
Um, And yet it's also one of those phrases that I feel like is overused to the point where in some ways it's lost its meaning . Um, so that's one of the things I was really excited to sit down with Melody to ta speak about was to have her sort of break it down for us. Like, how, what is codependency exactly.
Um, can you, can she clarify? Us and she did in a way that just kind of blew my mind with its simplicity that cut through all the bullshit. And I was like, and it really was so helpful to see, to point out, um, how I was, you know, experiencing or practicing codependency in my own life. and, um, it was just a conversation that in big and small ways has really left an impression on me.
And also, can I just say, it was such a joy to have melody on the show because she's such a badass. I mean, she's been doing this work for a really long time, so it was really great to just have the energy of someone who , I think like now in her seventies, it's just, um, really fully embodied and kind. goals for me, just this idea of being a total, um, I'm gonna do whatever the fuck I want.
Uh, crone energy , which is really what I aspire for here, even in my late thirties. Um, so I hope that you guys will enjoy the episode as much as Kylie and I did.
Before we start the show, I want to give a shout out to Kylie's 2023 New Year program that she's offering called Limitless. Um, this is the kind of thing that you probably wanna jump on if you wanna have your pants knocked off in an incredible way. Your a around, um, starting your year off in alignment in a really empowered sort of way.
What I love about this program is it's, it's a week long. It's totally affordable. I think there's something very, um, accessible to me about a week of just being in community with people being guided through Kylie's brilliant leadership, um, and her magic without feeling like this is gonna be, you know, some really in depth.
Uh, longer program cuz sometimes I think we just need a little jolt, right? And to get clarity on what it is exactly that we want. Um, Kylie and I are big, both fans of New York Energy. I'm a Capricorn in many ways, through and through. And I just think there's something really, um, inspiring about, uh, utilizing this energy.
So, uh, if you are interested. She's promoting that now and I think it starts sometime in the, in beginning of January. Uh, you can find that at her website@kyliecaldwell.com. And if you like this episode, please subscribe, share it with your people. That always helps. We love hearing from you. Tag us on all the things leaving your review.
We really appreciate y'all. Appreciate we really appreciate you all and we'll see you next week. Enjoy.
hello Melody. Welcome to Hello Universe. We're so excited to have you
Hello, universe
Love it. Smart.
Well done. Well done.
Ah, we are curious, what is life teaching you right now?
cur. First of all, curiosity is one of the greatest gifts we've been given because it will inevitably guide us along our path. What I'm learning. Intensely right now is to love myself at a depth and degree. I never thought possible to meditate daily, to stay on track and to learn the power of saying I don't know, and being comfortable with that.
I mean, the only thing I really truly know is right now and everything else is up for grams.
Yeah, as you're saying that it's, you know, I, I agree wholeheartedly. I also understand it can, that feels like that's a terrifying feeling. The, I don't know. And it's also simultaneously liberating
Mm-hmm.
I think it's about trying to find that balance.
Yeah. My whole body softened. When you said, talked about the, the power of, I don't know, and I'm kind of curious if, um, yeah, if you could speak a little more specifically about how that, that might be showing up for you right now. Is there a particular yeah. A particular way that's showing up?
Well, I, I can tell you when I was first introduced to the concept and I had started a three month tour of China and Tibet, and it started with my hiking partner and I standing in a cave in the absolute dark, we couldn't see where we were. We couldn't see a thing around us. I started to panic and then from being in such a strict Buddhist, strictly Buddhist society, I went, oh, I don't know.
That's okay. I don't know where I am. I don't know what's gonna happen. And I relaxed and it became, So magical.
Hmm.
And so there's a, I learned back then there was a payoff for me when I could release my need to control the present moment and to know everything that was going to happen next and how it was gonna happen and how it was gonna unfold.
Because that it continues to help me slide into the magic of the universe, and that's what I miss most when I don't have it, is the magic.
Yeah.
Can I ask another question?
You can't
Um, , how would you describe the magic of the universe? Right? Because I, I instantly have my own sense of that, but I'm curious what, what that means or looks like or feels like for you.
When I have to know or think I know everything that's gonna happen, my mind isn't open, my heart isn't open, and I'm filtering everything through. Well, it should. I think it's, uh, what if it was this instead? And when I get into the magic, it's, it's truly like becoming one with the universe. I can watch life unfold and I can become part of that unfolding.
Hmm.
And that's, that's when we find the magic that Hello Universe is all about, at least
for me.
I mean, just hearing you talk about, I don't know. It's such a delicious reminder because. as you were saying that I am, I was reminded like, oh, not knowing is fabulous. Like, it's wonderful. It feels so good to not have to feel like you have to know because the suffering comes from, I think the suffering comes from, uh, having to know, feeling like an attachment to that.
You have to know how things go, but that's the very thing that drives me the most bonkers. Like, I get into this frenetic mess and what if, and you know, it's like I, I know this, but I basically forget every day. But wait, wait, wait. If I don't have to know and if I really don't know, I can just relax and I can enjoy myself and there's actually very little I have control over and that feels really good.
Anytime you're really stressed out,
so liberating.
Yeah.
Well, and, and, and there's no sense. Why would we have to know? And I mean, no. In our hearts and our minds, anything we don't really know when we're supposed to know, we'll know. And it'll be a moment of enlightenment. And until then, we can just go with the flow.
Yeah. Yeah, I, I agree.
yeah. Yeah. It's funny sometimes I watch, I have um, I have a five and a three-year-old, and so they're my best. You can see the Halloween decorations behind me. They are of course, my best teachers, but they, um, my five-year-old is so funny because he will like, he wants to know like, what are, you know, I'll try to, he wants to know what we're gonna do or what the answer is to the plan or whatever.
And um, and I constantly have to like, I will constantly watch myself in those moments and think, oh, this is just me in the universe, right? This is me constantly. Like, I gotta know the answer. I gotta know the answer. And I will turn to my son and say like, don't you like surprises? Cuz he really, really loves surprises.
Yeah. Hey, can you just trust me for a minute? He's like, okay. And I, it makes me laugh every time because I can feel that I do the exact same cycle. Right. And that, uh, I do like being surprised and delighted. And I do like when I'm not in charge and, and yet, like my son, I'm like, tell me the plan. Tell me the plan.
Yeah,
Well, luckily when we get highly obsessive, we now have YouTube
Yeah.
and we could, we could scroll on there until we pass out.
Yeah.
Oh my God, that is hilarious. It's, it's a, you know, for as an information junkie, it's both a blessing and a curse. It's like, it's such a high, you just binge on all this stuff, but doesn't actually make the, I don't know if I would say the, it makes the needing to know the urge to know any less Great.
Yeah, it's not completely fulfilling, but it will distract us
Exactly.
when you eat a, like a entire bag of popcorn and you're like, oh, well that seemed like a good idea of the time.
Yeah.
Oh yeah.
Um, I wanna transition into talking about your book Melody, because I mean, I'm holding it up here. I, I mentioned before we started podcasting, I have, this is the copy that I've been carrying around with me from state to da state as I have moved around in so many places. Co-dependent no more.
Um, I mean, what can I even say about it? It's so, so a little bit of background. My mother is an alcoholic and so I think this book is particularly common around amongst the, uh, Al-Anon community, AA community. So that's why I think I had such a huge impact on me. And that being said, I read it a long time ago.
And full transparency. I still think I have a hard time defining what co-dependency really means. And
does every
yeah. And I, and, and now, I mean, I basically am sitting here with, I feel like the living legend who like, you know, you wrote the book on Co-Dependent No More, and I would really love to hear from you.
How do you define co-dependency?
Well in, in, in its way of unfolding.
I.
I believe that the simplest definition is I'm codependent. When I start loving someone more than I love myself, I start being codependent when I care more. I'm not talking about if we have a young child, we need to protect or someone we love in a moment I'm talking about on a regular basis that does not work for them and doesn't work for us.
And, and, and again, I'm talking about characteristics, but to me, I'm not into self-love when I'm looking for a home in everyone else, but I don't feel at home in myself. And so that pretty much defines our recovery, doesn't it?
Uh, I'm groaning though cause it's so hard. like, as, as someone who, I think it's complicated because I think, uh, I guess I wanna ask. How do you draw that line? So again, so I'll use my mother as the perfect example. It's complicated because I think I want to love her, you know, she's my mother. We have this like really, and I do love her.
And I and, and also Dick, you're saying it's hard or I ask if this is what I'm saying. It's hard to draw that line sometimes because you love this person so much
Mm-hmm.
and I mean, I don't know if we can fit it all into a podcast cuz you wrote a whole book about it. But like, if you were to sort of give us a breakdown on, um, if you can succinctly.
I'm asking you a really big question here. Like what helps
I cannot set a boundary for any other. because I don't know when it's too much. I don't know when they've reached their limit. That's what we need to learn about ourselves. What do we like? What do we dislike? Where is it okay to, you know, placate our mom because she's our mom,
Mm-hmm.
and when do we need to say something?
I believe that the better we become at setting boundaries, the less we have to do this. I'm setting a boundary because you're an ass, you know, and it can just, we can just, because really we're not setting a boundary for the other person. We're setting a boundary for ourself. And so we need to be able to answer, how far am I comfortable going?
What do I like? What do I not like? And then correct our own behavior accordingly. We don't ever have to put it on the other human.
I really love this reminder that we're setting the boundary for ourself, right? Because it's like, where's the line of what I am willing to tolerate and what I am willing to experience? Uh, yeah. It's not about the other person.
No, it's
Mm-hmm. . Yeah.
ever.
Yeah.
I mean, I think you took something really complicated right now and, and really just explain it to me in a way that I'm understanding in a, in a, in a more, in a deeper way. This idea of I get to decide, I get to decide what the boundary is, and I think that's part of the lesson. Like there's a skillfulness there that we have to go.
We go through life and we don't know what our boundary is when we're fresh and new, but that's something that we get to learn about ourselves after some trial and error and error.
It's part of this journey we're on of discovering who we are. And that's never a static thing. It can change moment to moment. Being codependency in its essence isn't being dysfunctional. It's being a human and needing to sort through what we need to do next to get on in life.
Hmm. Yeah.
so much compassion in that, right? In recognizing, uh, like a phrase I use for myself. Sometimes it's like perfection not required, right? Like,
could we be perfect and learn anything?
yeah, perfect is like plastic, right? It's not real, it's not alive. , but I really love the reminder that like, yeah, co-dependency doesn't, it feels icky. And also it is a deeply human experience that you can, you know, I'm, I'm getting the, I'm, I'm thinking of like when you meditate and you just keep coming back to center, right?
Center is like, you know,
That's home. It's home.
Yeah. And so like, oh, did I slip into co-dependency again? Okay, well, I know how to come back home. Um, uh, and that the, like, the space to just exist when it's a flowing in and out as opposed to a static place, you must arrive and then never leave.
That, that doesn't exist. At least I'm, I'm not part of anything that exists like that. It's, um, we're, we're here to be on this journey, not to be objects of perfection. We're here to be on this just messy, complicated, annoying, anger producing, fear producing, loving spiritual journey that we're on.
Mm-hmm.
It's not for the fainthearted, especially of late.
It's, it's truly not. We need, um, We need good, strong fortified souls.
Well that actually brings me to one of the questions that I had, which is, um, you know, as Eva mentioned, this book is an important book that's, you know, helped a lot of people for a long time. And, uh, it's now out in a new edition. And so I'm curious to know what has inspired you to, um, to bring it forth now in this particular moment?
Have you ever, um, picked up a yearbook from when you were a freshman or sophomore in high school?
Yeah. Yeah. You look back and it's like, yeah, sometimes it's cringey, sometimes it's, uh, very nostalgic. Sometimes you don't recognize the person anymore.
Yeah.
I tried to take two of those things out of there. I mean it, the book reflected it was the way our society was that then, I mean, when that book was written, Women weren't that far off from just being chattel.
Mm-hmm.
we tend to see things in the moment, but if we look, if we stand back a bit and look at history, change happened slowly.
It really does in on a collective level. So there was a cringing that went on and some of my significant triggers when I wrote the book were still alive and still very triggering . And so I, I did a lot of disguising their identity disguising and, you know, while it was a valiant effort on my part, unless we see action, reaction in, in its true home base, we don't really get it.
So I went back in and everyone, all my significant triggers have now passed. So I told the truth.
Oh wow.
can I ask you to just dig right in there and share something that
You're in the hot seat, essentially.
Um, well, no, I mean, I had a very dicey mother-daughter relationship. I was born in 1948, so being abused like by the husbands. I babysat for, um, anyone, any male running around the neighborhood older than I was. And then a mom. I think my mom missed the boat. I think she would have been her primetime if she was born now and could be a lesbian.
Hmm.
Yeah.
She was very innovative. I mean, there were good things from her. She's, she was also a path pathological liar, so I don't know if this is true or not, but I would guess it very well could be. She was the first woman in Minnesota. to be allowed to have a mortgage in her own name because women were not allowed to have that kind of credit and to buy homes.
So she taught me a lot about how I could push on forward, but she was just a very unpleasant, angry woman. I got, I'm sure I got treated the best. I, I had, uh, three half siblings. We didn't have, we didn't share the same father. I'm sure I got better treatment from her. I know I did, because I saw the way she physically abused him.
I was sickly as a child, so I didn't have the physical abuse as much, but I mean, and I'm not doing it to, you know, talk badly about her. But it was very formative, extremely formative, um, challenges. And yet we were at peace in, in her old age. I'm the one that drove to Minnesota. I set up, she had dementia, and I set up Karen, her home.
I mean, I, I was very good and very loving, and it's the first time she and I ever had any intimate contact. Um, she was fading in and out of her dementia and she walked over to me and she put her arm around me and she said, melody, you've helped so many people. Now you're helping me.
Uh,
she hugged me and that was the first moment, probably the only moment of connection we'd ever had.
Wow.
oh
then she died some months later. But no, I mean, it was a con, very complicated relationship. And it was a beginning of my engaging in love hate relationships, not knowing clearly how to define love, what does it mean to be loved? Because I had had to convince myself that all the abuse was love. I mean, we have so many challenges when we grow up in alcoholic families, don't we?
Mm-hmm. . Yeah.
But that's what we're here for.
Yeah.
To sort it.
I mean, it's also been, if we're lucky enough, I have found that it, if we let it , that ex, this experience also can be the thing that cracks us wide open. Right.
Oh, abso absolutely nothing is by accident. We are right where we're meant to be. We were where we're meant to be. Our job isn't to plaster over our past. It's to make peace with our past
Hmm.
and drop the entire victim self.
Mm-hmm. , yeah.
Just, which is very hard to do because many of us were victims legitimately. But if we have that as a self-image, we're gonna keep drawing it to us.
We need to let it go. The this, and I don't remember who said this, but someone recently said, someone on the internet, life doesn't happen to us. It happens for
us.
Yeah.
When I mentioned that probably the most helpful thing I can do right now to stop me slipping into any kind of a victim's story is to reframe how I perceive difficult events in my life.
mm-hmm.
my housekeeper not being able to come to work, that's a Malibu problem. Um, Or a relationship not working or someone disappointing me, and it can be anything.
When I stop looking at those as events happening to me and start approaching them as my next challenge in my spiritual growth, it's much better for me. I have this beautiful tree across from my house, and it's been shaped by the winds. You know, it's branches are all you. You could just tell the, the wind has taken its hand and shaped that tree, and I believe our challenges to that, to us, the ones we rise to, they shape us.
They determine our next course of growth. They determine, well, the most important thing too, we can do when we're challenged is to figure out what we're learning. And then put it in our pack of superpowers. You know, I have had this very naive response to life's challenges. I would say the first 10 or 15 years of my learning to acquire these skills.
It's like, all right, I learned letting go. Now I've done that. I don't have to do it again.
Oh, I re,
We've all, yeah. We know this one really
Yeah,
I,
I remember the moment that I was sitting in therapy and I was like, oh, I thought I was gonna like trade in these issues and get new. I'm just stuck with these.
Yeah.
Yeah, we are pretty much, and I, I never outgrow the need to remember what I've learned from my lessons because they will reappear and my first reaction could easily be, oh, I don't know what to do. I'm stuck. Oh, poor me. But. It's about reframing our approach to our lives, and that helps me a lot. And the other, the other thing, and I probably should say this for the end of this show, is remember to laugh every day.
Life is very intense right now, and if we don't lighten the load for ourselves, nobody else will.
Yeah, that's medicine. And I think having good friends that can help you laugh at the, at, take a serious situation and help you laugh at it. I'm really talking about Kylie cuz we talk about serious stuff all the time and giggle kind of throughout
Yeah.
Um, melody, I have another question for you. Mm. About, okay.
So in, in relation to co-dependency, I think what's so hard about drawing boundaries sometimes for people who have maybe co-dependent tendencies is that it actually doesn't feel. Safe or dangerous? I mean, it doesn't feel safe or it feels dangerous because, okay, I'll just continue to use my mom as, as the example for our listeners so that they can have something concrete to understand.
But so if I draw a boundary with my mother and, and you know, these are all things that I've been learning, but I feel like again, I will learn forever. Um, sometimes I feel the, the, the challenge is, it could be different for everyone, but maybe it's this idea of like, well, it's a loss of security. It's a loss of love.
It's a loss of we're just afraid we're gonna lose something. It actually feels like sometimes it fries our nervous system more to say no, and cuz it doesn't feel safe. I, I'm wondering if you have any thoughts on how to, how to b balance that and manage that so that we can practice saying no and having boundaries without totally freaking out
Well, good luck. I mean, we all Nobody ever said it was going to be easy. No. It's the reason we don't set boundaries in the first place is. Usually our fear of rejection or loss of someone important in our lives.
right?
And we don't ever have to be cra or mostly ever have to be crass or rude or mean or obnoxious to set a boundary. I mean, we can get so skilled at boundaries when we set one.
Someone might not even know. We've just set a boundary.
Hmm mm-hmm. . Yeah.
One of one of the things I do is if I know when I'm around a particular person or talk to 'em on the phone for any length of time, I'm gonna get really annoyed and ticked off and upset. So I don't have to tell this person, you know, you're, you're a real dick on the phone.
I don't wanna talk to you. I can just either do very brief texts or just talk for 30 seconds now and again, I can withdraw without making a big scene.
From something that's uncomfortable to me. Some people might call that passive, but there's another rule at play too, and that's for every action there's an equal and opposite reaction.
Uh, so when people make this big drum banging boundary setting event, it usually does tick people off. I mean, it pisses me off.
Yeah. But I do have to say though, I mean, I also wanna add that, you know, the, i, the ability to set a boundary and, and the receiving person not knowing it's a boundary, I think is. It takes a degree of practice and skillfulness. I really resonate with what you said in the beginning where you were just like, well, good luck.
Because I feel like there's permission there sometimes that it's gonna be messy. Like sometimes if you don't, if it's hard, it's not gonna look all graceful and it's not gonna look super spiritual sometimes it's just gonna be kind of sloppy. Yeah, it's gonna suck and it's gonna be sloppy, and I think that's okay too.
because
Well, I know it's another experience we're going through. We don't have to lock ourselves in to such rigid expectations on anything. And it, it does, you're right. It takes a while. It takes practice and it takes practice even with my friends to say, uh, no, I can't do that
today. And I don't have to explain.
It's just no. I mean, I do, if the friend is important, you know, I'll say, you know, I can't, I, I rescheduled and I've got two appointments. I'm really sorry. But we can still say whatever it is we need to say to take care of ourselves with other humans. We don't have to cons, we all have to do things we don't like from time to time, but we don't have to live our entire lives that way.
Doing things that are uncomfortable. And the biggest way to check that out is who are we? Who are we resenting?
Hmm.
Ooh. Can you say more about that? What do you What? What do you mean by that?
I mean, if we tune into ourselves after an interaction with another human, listen, listen to what's going on up here. Are we? Oh God, I'm so angry. She always does that. He always does that. Ugh, I'm not gonna do that anymore. Then we do it some more
Mm-hmm. . Mm-hmm.
Um, but we need, we're really good listeners. need to learn to listen to our.
Some, because you were saying like, sometimes we get annoyed and we're like, oh, this person annoys me. But I actually have seen a lot of codependent behaviors. Like we care so much about what someone else thinks. It's this. Um, I see this actually with my clients sometimes this idea of like, they're, so, I mean that is, I think some of, so much of the suffering with codependency is that you're, so, you care so much about what someone else thinks, that you're not even comfortable in your own skin.
And I'm, and so you were going, can you talk a little bit more about what you were saying about who are you resenting, like in those moments? How does that question help? If you're thinking about who are you resenting?
Are you speaking? Can I jump in and ask something too? Sorry. Are, are you think speaking to like sometimes we're so uncomfortable in our own skin that we don't realize we're feeling resentful, that we're just like super focused on the other
responding positively. People pleasing with the other person. We're not authentically being who we are, and when the interaction is over or and they leave, we're, oh God, I did it again. Why do I always get sucked in and
Yes. That, that's it. Which to me, I think actually really comes back to the thing that you said at the very top of this conversation, which is like, you know, even now you're lear learning self-love even more deeply. And I think there is an element of self-love that comes from, or I think that the idea of self-love is actually incredibly important if we are going to um,
love ourselves?
Yeah.
Which is essential,
yeah, if we're gonna have these hard conversations that are gonna feel gross sometimes, and, you know, we have to learn to really honor ourselves.
right? Go ahead,
sorry, . I'm having a real time. Aha. So I'm jazzed to share it, even though I've been chatting with her this week. This has just been one of those weeks where parenting has been, it, it's been big and intense. Um, and I have been really resentful of my kids, right? I hadn't didn't have that language until just now, but I have just been annoyed like, oh my God, you need me so much. right? I mean, like, part of its cause like I literally have to wipe my three year old's bum, right? Like, you know, um, there is, but, but what I'm, what, what I'm realizing and, and it doesn't feel good, right? Like, I genuinely like them and it doesn't feel good to be fucking annoyed at them all the time, which is the how I have felt most of this week.
At one point, my son goes, I don't want a day like this I was like, I know bud. I know me either. Let's start, let's start over. But what I'm, what's what I'm realizing right now, again, in the theme of relearning things is like, The question I'm asking myself is like, where am I overgiving in ways that my kids are not asking me to overgive because like there's a boundary that I need to be setting for myself.
and for their own wellbeing.
for their wellbeing. Cuz I'm kind of not being the most fun mom this week by far. Because I'm resentful. Because I'm overgiving. But they didn't ask for the overgiving, right? So this idea of like the boundary is for me, uh, is just making me think about like, they're just being kids. They're just being, they are like totally neutral in this situation, but I'm giving something that I don't want to give and it's mixing up the whole scenario.
And so where, what do I need to, like, where do I need to set a boundary for myself so that I can have more fun with them?
Yeah.
It, um, it will keep us on our toes. First of all, with kids, I need to say this. The relationship with our children from the time they're inside our bodies, as long, as long as they love that relationship, will tend to be the most natural, healthy, codependent one we have because they are totally dependent on us when they're babies.
Uh, they can't do anything for survival. We need to love them and put them first more than we love ourselves. , but if we keep doing that, we're gonna create monsters.
Yeah, yeah, yeah. It's interesting too cuz like I as a mom am really big on like, like, yeah, go do. You do, right. There's a lot of ways that I foster independence and also. Clearly a P, like, I don't, I can't even la label exactly what it is, but it's, I can feel in my body, like, clearly there's something off here where the synchronicity of this particular week being so, um, trying and then this conversation, I'm like, okay, universe, like you've hit it on the nose.
I'm listening. So, um, uh, yeah, which is again, also just the like, delicious paradox of the ways in which we can set the intention to foster something and then also be mired in the very thing we think we're not, we think we're separating ourselves from, if that makes sense.
Yeah, it, um, you know, many religions have ceremonies that take place when a child turns like 12 or becomes of age. And the purpose of that is to teach them about cause and effect, which is what we call karma.
Hmm.
Uh, and it's considered in these religions that after a certain age, children are responsible for their own karmic creation.
But that doesn't just go from, oh, no, no responsibilities when you're born to 12 and all right, everything's in your hands. It's a process like everything else in life. And then sorting what we're teaching our children, because in the end, in the very end, we teach people how to treat us.
mm-hmm.
Yeah.
It's a dance that it takes two people to.
Yeah.
So then the question would be for each of us to do, go on this soul searching mission and find out, right. First of all, I would always suggest start with what's most annoying. Uh, one, one woman talks about how her teenage son, probably Noah, Jan hat Hatmaker, how she got up every day to get him out of bed and get to school that time, and he kept going back to sleep and her, her entire morning was devoted to waking him up and getting him to school until finally she went, no, he's old enough. He needs to learn to do that for himself. And her fear, of course, was that she'd end up with a son with no g e d or high school diploma, but she put the responsibility squarely. and her son's lap, and I just re, I applaud her for that. Um, it can be grueling setting boundaries with our kids, especially as they get older and more demanding.
And the culture right now is very demanding. It's almost telling us we have to over-indulge our children to be good parents. And if it's not telling us that, our kids will tell us that. Yeah.
Yeah, that's actually, that's really interesting. Yeah. I think with the advent of Covid, what I noticed with my nephews is that they were so used to having their parents around that they just became so needy and now they're, they expect their parents to be their friend and always play with them. And it's like, no, you need to just go, be like, go do the thing that you're supposed to do when you're a kid, which is like, use your imagination and be by yourself.
Right. And that's actually exactly what has been tough for me personally this week. Right. Their behavior has actually been like just normal kid behavior. Right? There haven't been issues of like,
Misbehaving
Misbehaving or like, I keep telling you not to do X and you keep, it's not that, it's just literally like, I'm craving space and they're just, I'm, but I'm not actually setting the boundary for the space.
So they're just glomming onto me to be like, entertain me please.
well when your kids, how old did you see? Your
Three and five.
y You can't set space boundaries with three and five
No,
No. You're lucky if you get bathroom time alone with three and five
years
Yeah, that's definitely a rarity. I mean, thankfully there's tv, the TV's a great babysitter, but right? And so perhaps the boundary, you know, involves like a babysitter. Uh, but, um,
Yeah, I mean what, what I'm hearing here is like there's a little bit of like, you can take your power back in some ways, right? Because I think, not to say that, I mean, melody, you were talking about being a victim. And not to say that Kylie, you, I don't hear you being mired in like victim consciousness at all, but there's
I don't either.
but there's something helpful here about being like, okay, like I see what's happening.
Maybe there's an action that I can take to support my boundary rather than feeling like it's all fucked
and I think I'm not in victim consciousness right now because I have this clarity and like these two delicious wise women who are giving me guidance. Yesterday I was totally being a silky baby.
which is totally okay too. I think. Like you need to let yourself have that experience, but it's ultimately not really that help. Like it doesn't, it's not
doesn't change. Yeah, it doesn't change
the problem. And I, I, I think you're right. I mean, the answer to that would be finding little ways to get respite care. You know, little ways you can do something just for yourself that'll fill you up with light so you can come back and love your kids the way you wanna.
Yeah. Oh, thank you. Eva knows I've been talking to her all week about like, I dunno what's going on. I'm gonna pull my hair out. So this is like really, um, very, especially nourishing.
Okay. And then there's something else to keep in mind from now through March too.
Ooh.
The astrology is brutal right now. It's absolutely brutal. Our impulse will be, go faster, go slower. When we feel
Hmm.
our impulse will be to scream, pause, don't react, respond. Um, it's just, it's, it's just gonna be brutal from now to the end of March.
Just the way we feel when we wake up every morning. Life is gonna, it could very well for many of us, feel a little bit more challenging than normal
Can you tell us a little bit more of what's going on in the stars? Like how long from when to when are we expecting this, this intensity to go on for?
from the end of September through the end of March, 2023.
Oh my God, that's a, that's a very long time.
I know, I know. It's gonna be probably one of the most brutal sets of transits we've ever lived through. But we can do it. We can do it. All we have to do is bring ourself our light and our gifts, first of all, to our own lives, and then in the way that seems, seems right to us, to the world,
you know, in spaces where we're invited to do that.
Um, I also just, I do, I will, I will always really welcome the invitation to go slow. You were talking about going slow instead of yelling, maybe pause. Um, I think, yeah, if there's an open invitation to go slow, I'm like, okay, I'm gonna try and let myself go slow.
And with the anxiety being so high with everyone, I know my original impulse and there's a lot going on around me and there's a lot going on in the world is to hurry up, to tense, up, to go faster, to go harder. And that's, um, very counterintuitive.
Yeah.
you mentioned anxiety, so I wanna shift gears back to your book for a second. From my understanding, part of what's new or been added to your book is you've added some chapters on trauma and anxiety. Is that
I, I added one very big chapter. I, I feel very proud of it and very grateful to have written it. And I had to time travel for a while when I did it, uh, because I wanted to go back to my instincts and my, um, intentions at the moment. And I, I could remember looking at the ch what was to be the, the old chapter 20, which would become 21.
And I can remember sitting down to write it and finishing it and going, there's, there's something missing,
Hmm.
Mm.
but I don't know what that is.
You felt that, you mean when you had first written in the
Originally back in 19 85, 86, but it was like, no, just wrap it up and get done and turn it in. And that's because I didn't, I, we weren't even talking about anxiety and trauma that much back in
Hmm.
1986.
And so I just slipped in on a little bit of time travel and, um, it worked out really well. And I, I, words are the most powerful thing we have. We can use 'em as weapons, we can use 'em as instruments of healing. We can use them any way we, we choose to. But I think the chapter on trauma and anxiety is pretty magical.
There's some magic that came through in that, and I feel really good about it and grateful to have been a part of putting it
Yeah, I mean, would you mind talking and sharing a little bit about why you decided to add these chapters or what you feel like is important about them?
Other than to rid myself of the cringe factor from the rest of the book, from, you know, the hairstyles and all the things that were out of date, I, our world has changed a lot. And so my editor bless her soul and I went through every word in that book. We changed. Shes, and hes in some cases to these, we included more, it's more age of Aquarius.
It's
What, what does that mean? Actually, I don't, I don't, I've heard the phrase, age of Aquarius. I never knew what it meant.
it meant, it means we're open to everyone in our world to be here and we accept them and we don't have to live as much under the patriarchy as we did in the past. And women are important and we're like full human beings. We're not shadow and men are, and. The L G B T Q community and the underprivileged in the houseless.
And I mean, we're all in this together. And it means ultimately respecting every human
Hmm.
and letting each human be who they are. I also went through the book and I tried to take out, I mean we've got so many psychological illnesses diagnosed right now, and it's very easy to like, describe people as, oh, she's a codependent or he's a drunk.
And to take all of that out of there and to treat people, we're not labels, okay, we're humans and we have issues we work through. And to just put more respect in the book.
mm.
and stories that reflect it more reflective stories. Um, and, and the resources section
Hmm.
has dramatically improved, um,
Yeah.
because there's more resources accessible now and.
For more people. I feel great about the resource section in that book,
I will have to check out that resource section, , but, but I think I wanna know is like if you, if you'd be willing to talk about it, to give people maybe a glimpse into the, the, this, the book now as it is. I mean, what about trauma was missing from the conversation in your book?
pretty much everything we I mean, after I wrote Codependent No More on his 12th birthday, um, my daughter took my son skiing. We lived in a ski community and I never saw him alive again. Uh, so that kicked. My round with trauma, but I still didn't know. It started as grief and then it melded and meshed into trauma.
That went back and encompassed my entire life pretty much. I mean, I hadn't learned about trauma yet. Not really. I mean, I, and I didn't know about anxiety yet. I'd realized that if I sat at a stop sign, I'd be like, you know, doing something to try and make the light hurry up so I could make my turn and get home quicker.
I realized that there was something buzzing about in me most of the time, but I didn't have the language for it yet and I certainly didn't know what to do to help others with it. Not yet. Oh, so, and timing has a lot to do with the entire, well, part of the, I don't know, would be the correct answer, but it, uh, I had approached it before, it didn't work out. copyrights on books are a little otter than other copyrights. And so the copyright was up for grabs. Again, it was in my name and everything worked out, and it was, it was time for this flower
to grow. Yeah, it was time.
I hope we can get it into the hands of many people because I think, um, I just, anybody who's ever struggled with any, really any codependency shows in so many ways, but for me, it's very apparent in caretaking situations if you ha you feel like you're caring for somebody. Definitely if someone is dealing with someone, a loved one is struggling with addiction.
Those, those things are things I'm very familiar with. And, um, There's a lot of suffering in codependency,
There really is. And, and that leads me to the connection, the ultimate connection I think between trauma, anxiety, and codependency. And that's, The solution to all those issues. Anxiety, trauma, codependency is the same, and it's in our hands, in its extreme. Self-love, acceptance, compassion, and a commitment to walking our path the best we can.
Not perfectly. If you do it perfectly, we're not gonna catch the lessons.
mm-hmm. . Yeah.
Yeah.
There's no easy way. I wish I could tell you if you do this, it'll be magic and you'll live happily ever after it. But that we can live happily every day.
Hmm.
We can enjoy our lives every day, regardless of what's going on in the collective, what's going on out there. We can monitor what goes on in here and in here in our.
Yeah. Can I ask a question that's a little, a little bit of a detour, but before we, unless you, did you have something specific before I change up? Okay. So before we hit record, uh, you had shared how. You know, you've always been a really spiritual person, but for a long time it wasn't like part of the world that you, you know, uh, that you got to speak.
You know? It was, it was more private. And, um, and I'm curious, uh, I guess I'm just curious to know what your journey is, a big opening question, but what your journey has been as a spiritual person and what you find your, current ways that you enjoy experiencing your spirituality.
You know, I always thought the spiritual journey was just like this freaky stuff that happened to me when I was a kid and a teenager, and it's like, oh, I. I guess I had to do it then. It was an emergency. I mean, these very mystical situations that would come into my life just when I needed a most, and people would say, that's a pretty magical thing.
I'd go home. But then I thought, all right, once I had more time under my belt, I thought, okay, I, now it's, I don't need to rely on that anymore. I could just take care of everything myself, and it got less magical. But I danced on the edge of this. And like, like all of us, we have innate gifts in each of us that we've used before.
If we can relax and, and let them come out and stop judging ourselves for 'em, um, whether it's intuition, whether it's visions, whether it's being healers, what, whatever that is being a creative or a combination, we all. Have these, but we're not going to find them until we can relax and love ourselves, but we have to start somewhere.
You know, self-love is the answer. You know, I, I was almost apologetic about self-love and codependent no more. And I think for many people, and myself included, it was, well, when does it become narcissism? When does it truly become selfish and boorish to be like that? I mean, I had so many boogeyman in my own head about it, and now it's like, no, no.
We just plain need to get over ourselves and love ourselves the way we wish we would've been loved as a kid. Uh, the way we'd like to love our kids. Um, we need to deeply embark on a journey of self-love.
Yeah.
Yeah.
I don't know how else we'll survive. I don't.
I mean, we don't do it well without self, without self-loving. It's not, it's, it's not great without it.
It's gonna hurt so much more and so unnecessarily.
Mm. Yeah. Yeah. I love your point about, um, I don't know the, like, funny, I mean, what I hear that I think is, I, I can personally really relate to is this like journey from these kind of wild, mystical experiences and then landing at a place where you might still have the wild mystical experiences, but it's really like this deep experience of love that you get to keep returning to.
It's a way of life. It's a way of life of being one with the universe that we, we can. Glow up and grow up with, and even give to and share with our children, you know, which is so essential. But it's not bs. We really do live in a magical ever person, ever loving, ever giving universe that does have each of our best interests at heart
Yeah, yeah.
do you, would you, what would you say? What would you say? So as someone who, I mean, like you were said, you were writing about self-love when it was not cool yet. You were walking, you were writing about self-love in the eighties when, and, and you said maybe even a little bit apologetically back then.
Mm-hmm.
What do you think, and now all these years later, you know, you're, it seems like you have this sense of like radical self-love. What do you think has been so the most helpful thing along the way to help you cultivate that?
a lot of pain and really harsh circumstances.
Hmm.
Where there wasn't anyone to love me but me.
Hmm.
then actually when I wrote this chapter, when I felt the presence of my higher power, my guides, my spirit guides, all of it, I knew how much I was loved. And I thought, you know, it's really a time. You know, it's cool.
It's cool to love ourselves, not to be na narcissistic, not to be mean, but it is very cool. And it will turn each of us into brighter stars that have more light to share with
Hmm.
Yeah,
Yeah.
But it, it's what you're talking about in one podcast, I think is a journey of our lifetimes. You know, we, um, There's not pinpoints.
It's a process. It's an ongoing process. It's the way a plant grows, it's the way a family grows. Little by slowly, you know, it,
it comes together. And then we find that, you know, the one thing that we can't watch is a baby or another human grow. We don't see growth. We don't, we can't watch a person age. We can see the way they've aged.
Hmm
One thing that I have to remind myself very loudly to do is to watch for my own growth.
hmm.
It's so easy to see what we don't have and what we're doing wrong, but to watch for those little subtle signs of growth, I forget what it was, but today I was outside and I laughed thinking about how much I had changed in a certain behavior over the last three years.
I didn't see it while it was happening, but I saw the results. So it's okay for us to take notes and, um, compliment ourselves when we do grow and change because if there's no reward for us, you know,
Yeah. I feel like also, um, having people to reflect back at you, your change is so helpful, right? Because it is hard, it can be hard for us to see out to dinner with my husband. A rare occasion with two small kids, just the two of us had to dinner and he said something about like, he recently just reflected back to me how, you know, when I used to work in corporate and before I had kids, I mean, I worked in corporate while I, anyways, it doesn't matter, I, I was much more invested in people's approval, right?
And this like, external authority, like that there was a really big marker of my life for, you know, a long time. And he just reflected back like, you're different now. Like you're. It's not as important to you that these outside influences approve of you and like you, and so you get to show up differently.
And I was so grateful for that reflection because I, I do think that's true, and it's been a big commitment of mine over all these years. And also, see, you can't, we can't always tell for sure, because to your point, we can't always see ourself growing. And so I think it's really, um, important to have people who can, who can, who can, are paying close enough attention and will tell you like, yeah, like, good job.
You, you grew here. You're taller now,
you know?
yeah.
Yeah, it is. And to also take a few moments and be able to tell ourselves that too.
Mm-hmm.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Yeah. Yeah. That, that's what I was thinking. I, I agree. Sometimes you can't see it, but the thing is, I think sometimes the reason we don't see it is because we're not practiced at
Hmm.
intentional. Like, I don't know if I have the time for this, but if, I bet if I made a commitment every week to just write a note down about like, how do I think I've grown, I think I would get really skillful actually of noticing how I've grown.
It's just that I don't take time to do that because most of the time I'm focused on what problem do I need to fix, right? Like, what's still not done. And so I, what I'm getting from this conversation is actually, like if I, if I was. And melody, I think what you're kind of pointing at, which I, I love so much, is like, well, I'm not good at it because I don't fucking practice, but if I practiced , I would get really good at it.
And that is probably a really important skill to have because I mean, I, I see this again with my clients all the time's. Like when we don't, it's, yeah. When we notice that we actually are making change, it actually propels us even faster because we feel more confident, we feel assured, we feel love. Yeah.
And hope. Yeah.
it's another way of loving ourselves, isn't
it? Pointing out, I mean, we do that for our kids. We tell our kids, oh, you're getting so good at that. You're learning to tie your shoe. Oh, you didn't hit your sister today. You know? We get very good at that with people we love, except for ourselves,
Yeah. Yeah.
I'm getting actually really kind of sad cuz I'm like, gosh, like I. I, it's, I, I guess I'm just feeling a sense of heartbreak medicine in a good way of like, God, I bet if I could just give myself a pat on the back every day, life would be so different. I, and,
it would be it.
yeah. And it's so simple and I'm like, you know what?
I wanna fucking give myself a pat on the back every day now because, um, it's sad that I don't live that way. It's sad that none of us live that way. It doesn't, you know, it's,
I know and what's more hellish than having to depend on other people for their approval? I mean, that's, that can be just a nightmare. And about what people think. People think so many different things every day about themselves, about other people, about life. I to hold up any kind of agency over our own self to the light of what other people just as confused as we are, are thinking is really folly.
It's great folly.
Yeah.
It's not just codependent. It's great. Folley.
Especially because then we, we just keep the bad opinions, right? Like when we're, the more invested we are in someone else's opinions, the more we're like, oh, you like me? That doesn't count. Oh, you hate me. That's the important one. I'm gonna pay attention to that
Yep. Yep.
One astrology thing I read, um, I still remember this little bit. It would say, imagine other people saying good things about you.
Hmm.
Yeah.
Yeah.
That would cause a little pain at first probably, but I think we could get through it, right?
Can I ask, because you've mentioned astrology a couple times, can I ask your astrology signs?
I am a Triple Gemini
Oh,
with a Capricorn moon.
Interesting. Yeah. . Yeah. I don't think I've ever met a Triple Gemini
Yeah. Yeah. But you got some Capricorn representation. Eva's. Eva's a Capricorn son, and my husband's a Capricorn son and Moon, so we love Capricorns here.
Yeah. I, I enjoy Capricorns. They're very ground.
Yes,
Aren't they? They're very grounded. My best friend is a Capricorn
I laugh because my whole, like all of my v I p, almost all of my like most important people are Capricorns, or they're January aquariuses, so I'm like, I just, I know it's Christmas. I have funny, and now you're all born so everybody gets, you know, like a pair of socks for their birthdays.
But I gotta, I have, I have a lot of Beloved Capricorns.
Oh goodness. I'm honored to be amongst one of them. I think we're in a choir. Tastes taste that. I will say
I, I The best to the best.
Yeah.
Hmm.
So another thing, and I'll just breadcrumb this a little bit. I won't say I, you're the only ones I'll have told the title to.
Ooh.
It's um, well, I'm doing a work. After I finish this tour, but the next original whole book I'm writing as much as I know right now is Living by Spirit.
Ooh.
I'm writing this down cause I'm making a mental note.
So should probably be out in a couple years and I hope I see you all before then,
Well, when that book comes back, we would love to have you, if you're gonna do another podcast tour, um, and we can talk about that book.
Yeah, I'd like that. I'd like to discussing it with you two.
What's, what's your favorite book that you've written of all the books that you've written? Cause I know there are a handful. Do you have a favorite?
Language of Letting Go.
Okay.
Mm
It's a daily meditation book to fill in all the bits I didn't put into Co-Dependent no more. And it was the last book I feel like I wrote for my heart right before my son's death.
mm.
Hmm.
Yeah.
just, it was such a, you know, I'm envious of you having a three and five year old at home because I'm 74 now.
And if I look back at my life and say, all right, what were the best, happiest times in my life? It's when I had both my kids at home and I was being a mom. Yeah, it was, there was so much deep original joy with that. Um, we, we always think happy is someplace off in the distance.
Yeah.
When we can convince ourselves that happy is right now, we'll probably be happier.
Yeah.
Listeners, there are a lot of tears rolling down my face right now that you can't see, but
Yeah. Yeah.
I mean, it's true, like, yeah. I think that's one of the gifts of kids, right? Is that they're, they're happy now. Right. Like my daughter just like bounds into the room and like throws herself up with a hug and it's like, oh yeah, you're like just really happy right now. And she also cries and cries for like 25 minutes because her stuffed animal was upstairs instead of downstairs But that's one of their gifts.
Yeah, they are great gifts.
Yeah, yeah.
So do you want my happy.
Oh
your joy. Yeah. Yeah. So what, what is one thing that's bringing you joy right now? Melody.
I've had a rabbit for four years, a lionhead rabbit that is so funny and so cute and so lovable
what's your rabbit's name?
her name is Doug. She,
Oh my gosh.
I love that.
she was found in a community garden by a friend of my daughter's who was looking for a home with her. When I just happened to mention, I think I wanna get a rabbit. I've never had a rabbit before, and so I've been on a journey of getting to know this rabbit happened to realize that she was more than a goldfish
Mm mm-hmm.
Hmm.
and then tuning into her consciousness and really getting to know her.
So she does bring me great joy and she does little binky and hops
Oh
when she's happy. She's very,
sounds
gosh. What is she like? What is like, what is her, what is Doug's personality?
Um, she's kind of a bitch She,
better.
she knows how she wants to be treated. She won't accept or stand for anything else, and she's just, um, she's just a wonderful pet. And I think rabbits have as much anxiety as I had. So she teaches me, she reminds me
to stay in my body. To stay in my body. Um, the other things that make me happy, I think I mentioned one earlier, it's YouTube, it's like a cheap thrill.
Yeah.
Wordle,
Oh
absolutely love wordle. Just it's my touch.
every day. Love it. Wait, hold on. I, I actually wanna go back to this YouTube. Do you have any like guilty pleasures? Like what are you watching on YouTube?
there is this, um, true crime guy named Mike. I, I think from Ireland. And I mean, I almost feel like I have a relationship with him now.
when you know when something's good. That's what we're going for with this podcast
Yeah, that's our aim.
yeah.
Yeah. Um, and I, like, I just take great delight in the fact that if I wanna drop in for a Tero reading, I mean, I've spent enough time getting to know who are the good readers and who are I like dropping in for reading now and again, I like some of the predictive specials they have on there. I like some of the movies they have on there.
They, I mean, you can find a whole world on YouTube
Uh huh. Yeah. Yeah. Um, was, was there anything else you wanted to share? Any other joys coming up for you?
being outside.
I do, I don't wanna like push this whole living in Malibu thing, but I am right
no, please push. Like, I wanna, I wanna like hear about this beautiful Malibu life.
Um, I've got a cottage on the beach. It's basically a cottage built in 1969, and it's on the beach and I'm literally right on the beach and I see the ocean. So next to my closet is the rest of the upstairs and it's overlooking the ocean
God. Ugh. A dream,
and it keeps me calm, just listening to the ocean, hearing the ocean, or going out front and watching a tree.
I mean, nature brings me so much joy
I mean, honestly, good for you. I'm, I'm here for your Malibu on the beach life, you and Doug hanging out watching YouTube. It just sounds amazing. Sounds amazing.
loving
ourselves.
loving yourselves. I mean, this was from lots of, from sh you know, your hard work from sharing your soul with your beautiful words, I think it's well deserved.
Just, you know, enjoy it.
Thank you. I will.
Yeah, Um,
and not obsessing about anyone else to, it's such a relief for ourselves when we can stop obsessing and worrying.
That's so good. Yeah. It's like, it's a, it's like that's when you're liberated.
Yeah.
Yeah, and it's not that we all go around obsessing about everyone. I think sometimes it's just, well, for me it's more like there's just, they're just, we'll be like one person who just happens to get under your skin more than someone else.
Like that's, that's, that's the work.
What, what sign are you both,
I'm a, I'm a Taurus Sun and an Aries Moon.
oh, wow.
Yeah, it's a real push pull happening over here all the time,
that's a good combo.
I mean, me too. So I'm a Capricorn son and an Aquarius, uh, moon,
Those are all my favorite signs.
That's why we've had such a fun party,
we're fast friends. Um, okay. In tradition of Hello Universe, we'll share, Kylie and I will also share some of our joys. I'm gonna go next because my joy is actually adjacent to yours. Melody, my joy this week is, is my cat Pima, who I, I have mentioned on the show before, but there is definitely something happening here between the two of us where I. You, you gave me language for, it's like, I do really feel like I'm becoming familiar with her consciousness and her soul. I feel like there's just something there when the two of us are, are just laying there together and she's in the sun in her little bed, and I just like put my head down next to her and I just snuggle my face like into her belly.
It's like, oh, I'm sensing your soul . It's not. And
I know it's Hello Universe,
yes, exactly. And it's, and she's the same thing. She's a teacher. She's like, I don't give, I don't care. I do what I want. I treat myself like the queen that I am. And also, I think she's, she begrudgingly, I think she's like slowly over the years just opened her heart to me more and more and more.
And now she's just like a big old softie where she didn't used to be. And so there's something going on here that feels like next to level and I'm really loving that
That's
and aren't we all getting evolved right now? We're not doing this. The universe is evolving, all of us, and it, it can be a little bit painful,
Yeah.
mean, that is a really good reminder because that's true. Like there's some sh there's my life has recently kicked up some new things, and I, I don't think I'm doing it. I think it's being, it's like I'm not, I've said before on the podcast, I'm not breathing. I'm being breathed like and
Yeah. I mean, it's a true essence of your show. We are part of a living universe.
Yeah.
We're our own little part. Yep.
yeah. Yeah. All right, Kylie, that leaves you, what's one thing that's bringing you joy?
Well, I will just share something that's cracking me up is that both of you describe both Doug and Pima as like, uh, this kind of like Queenly. I know what I want and I don't stand for Last Vibes, which is my three year old She's not begrudging in her affection. She's very affectionate, but it is hilarious to the extent to which that she, I just kinda bow down to her like she knows what she wants and it's a good way to be a woman in the world.
Um,
It is
And empress.
Um, and also I will, all of my gra and my friends are constantly like, you're teenager. Her teenagers will be like, right. She's just They'll be, they'll be an adventure for us. Um, but, um, what was I gonna say? Oh, but my joy is, um, I'm actually really excited that it's getting darker. So listeners might remember that in the past I've like kind of had a hard time in like the dark in the winter.
Like I usually get seasonal depression and um, you know, it's, it's, it's never super easy. And I live in New England, so you know, it gets cold. And last year I made a kind of a, I started to like, I took it seriously, right? I was like, I live in New England, it's, oh, we get winter every year. So what if we
It's not like a surprise
right?
Like, what if we, you know, we're really thoughtful about how I might navigate winter and enjoy it more. And one of the things that I realized last year is that I. Just like winter as a whole, I have a hard time being cold, but I actually really have grown to love the darkness. And so one of my rituals, um, is that I wake up really early and I don't turn on any lights in my house.
And so it's still dark outside and I light some candles and I sit in the dark and I drink my tea. And it's not, I'm not, I don't like formally meditate. I don't like, maybe I listen to music. Maybe I like write by candlelight in my journal, what, you know, whatever I end up doing. But there's something I don't, once the, once the like days are longer, I don't wanna do it.
It's like, it's, it's, it's specifically, it started to get dark and like this week was the week that I was like, ah, I'm gonna do my morning ritual. And uh,
I mean, yeah, there's something that sounds sacred about that, you know, a, a candle in the morning, I love that.
it's so, it's so great. I like it. I, I just love it so much and I, I didn't. I think now this is, this is me realizing how much it's really tied to the darkness, right?
Because I kind of fell out of doing it and I thought like, oh, maybe, you know, all habits come and go. Um, at least for me. But, uh, but realizing like, oh, I think this tablet is specifically about these dark early mornings, so I'm psych, I'm, yeah, I'm psyched that, and I'm also, that makes me feel really excited have shifted my relationship to darkness and winter.
So it feels pretty big. Yeah. I'm, I'm pumped for my, my dark, my, my dark corner of my house.
That is big. Being able to shift your relationship like that, I think speaks a lot to your intentionality. Yeah,
yeah, yeah.
don't mind winter anymore, as long as it's not under 70.
Hmm. . I was just gonna say, yeah,
I I'm with you. I'm with, I'm with you, with you on that.
I paid my dues in Minnesota. I paid, I paid my dues.
oh, I'm sure. Yeah. Uh, I'm with you. Melody. I am sunshine all away.
yeah, yeah.
All right.
Beautiful stories. Beautiful. Ladies,
thank you. so much.
Were just great. We love this conversation.
loved it.
can, can you share with our audience how they can find you? Do you have a website and, uh, you know, anything you wanna share or promote that we didn't already talk about?
No, um, I, I do, I do have a website. It's being upgraded. I'm still in a bit of resistance to this whole worldwide web thing. Um, but no, I, I, I have a website@melodybeauty.com. Right now, one of my little projects is trying to learn to make cute little heartfelt videos.
Hmm,
That I could post on Instagram or you know, anywhere because I have some really cute animal stories.
One about Doug and one about App Penguin. I meant,
Awesome. Wait, so wait. Can people find that? Can people, are those
well, I'm, I'm not posting anything on TikTok yet. I'm just on there experimenting while I learn which video editor to use. They can get to me, uh, melody beatie.com, which is a website, and we'll, we'll announce the different podcast and then my web team does something for me, I think, I think on Twitter and Instagram.
But I'm not positive. I
Yeah,
you're gonna be talking to my web team if you're there. Not me. The only place I will be is when I learn how to do these videos.
got it. Awesome.
everyone can go buy your book right now if they haven't already.
Well, yeah, they can, or they should be able to as of the 25th. And that was like the pinpoint date. But
Okay. Yeah, this won't be coming out for a couple more weeks, so by that time the book will be out. Everyone go buy it from your local bookstore. Even better if you can. Um, and Melody, we would love to have you back when in whenever your, well, I was gonna say when your next book comes out, but also anytime
launch a YouTube channel about you and Doug,
Yeah, we are. We are here for it.
you.
Yeah,
Um, all right. Just call me psychically.
Perfect.
psychically when it feels like time
will do.
All right. Good enough. Thank you ladies so much.