We’re back in the chaos and liberation of meaninglessness, and this time we dive into some vulnerable shares about the stories we really don’t want to give up. It’s a juicy one!
We’re back in the chaos and liberation of meaninglessness, and this time we dive into some vulnerable shares about the stories we really don’t want to give up. It’s a juicy one!
[00:00:00]
Eva: Hello. Hello, Universe family. It's Eva here.
Kyley: And it's Kyley
Eva: And we're back with part two of meaninglessness, which is, I think, such a juicy topic that, uh, still makes me a little bit uncomfortable, just how we know it's something that we want to dive into.
Kyley: Yes. And in particular, that's the last, last episode. If you haven't listened to it, you don't have to do it in sequential order. But the last one was about how meaninglessness is, how much freedom and joy there is. If we can slip into meaninglessness or embrace it. [00:01:00] And in this episode, we want to talk about all the ways in which it's scary and uncomfortable and what we think we might lose and,
Eva: Mm hmm.
Kyley: And, and I think we also want to look at some of the stories that we have, and perhaps hold very tender, very
Eva: Yes.
Kyley: Um, but before we do that, Eva, what's cooking in your corner of the world that people should know about?
Eva: Well, we've got LOIP going on, which is short for Loving Yourself Into Power, Loving Ourselves Into Power, which is my six week self love course that I'm doing with my dear friend Federico. And, um, I mean, this course is basically so much of my life's work poured into six weeks. And what I mean by life's work is taking my own journey, Of transformation from being like, I mean, you guys should have seen me.
you know, before. I don't think I would be recognizable to so many people. I was [00:02:00] so freaking insecure, so self conscious. I was so vicious to myself. Like, mean is, doesn't even cut it. It was, you know, I've, I've said, I've said on the podcast many times before that, like, it was through this, through my own, like, experiences of unfurling my stories that I, I saw that my standard story to myself was that I was a piece of shit, which is, and it was just like on the background, in the background that I had this dialogue of like a belief.
It was just, I was, it was like the water that I was swimming in, like, Oh Eva, you are a piece of shit. And then, and I didn't even know that was the water I was swimming in. And therefore, um, That was like what was causing so much of, of my suffering and that's actually really common with, um, people who grew up with like big trauma, you know, big capital T trauma, which is, I don't know, most of us, like many of us, maybe.
Kyley: If you're listening to this podcast, probably you. Yes. The, the moment where you. Well, you realize, I mean, I [00:03:00] remember the first time, like way back when we first met, when you were my meditation coach, a thousand years ago. And you said something like, well, most of my clients come to me for self love. And I remember I was like, Oh no, no, I'm good there.
Eva: Yes.
Kyley: Like just didn't, it was just like, no, no, no. Like I, I like whatever box I thought I needed to check. I had checked like, no, no, no, no. I love myself. We're good. And. Um, I, I think that's one of my favorite things now, and maybe this in some way sets us up for the conversation for the episode, because I think we don't know the water that we're swimming in.
Eva: Mm hmm. Yeah.
Kyley: And then we, and self love is always like, it's infinite. It's always the answer. We always can have more of it. We always need and deserve more of it. And there's always some opportunity to see. a place where we are practicing unkindness towards ourselves without even knowing it.
Eva: Yeah. Mm hmm. And holding something against ourselves. And, and really, honestly, like when I talk about self, I [00:04:00] mean, first of all, thank you for bringing that up because I think that's a really important point of like, yeah, self love is something that we talk about so often, but like, do you know how deep you can really go?
Like, because what I'm, the kind of self love like we're talking about is the kind of self love where you know that there is no separation between you and life. Until we really know that and live from that space and there is like zero self condemnation, like there is a deeper place that we can go with our experience of self love.
And it's beautiful. Like it's, and I'm still learning. It's forever this process and it's, and every time I up level my stories of. Well, like then my stories come up, right? Every time we up a level, it shows us where we are not yet free. And so that's why another reason that I think this work is always so relevant.
And what I think is possible at the other side is. this love that I, and I [00:05:00] think this is a big theme for both of us, me and Federico this time, because particularly because of like what's going on in Palestine and Israel is this idea of like, what's possible when we love ourselves is that this love radiates out to the world.
And, and that's always been true, but that's just, there's more of an emphasis on that. I think this time around, because it's like, wait, let's, let's do this for ourselves. And let's do this for each other. You know, yeah, so I'm really excited about the second run of loving ourselves into power. And if you or someone you know struggles with, you know, the guilt, the shame, feeling like, um, you're hiding or you're fawning and like, again, the self condemnation and you really want to, like, I think this is so much about self trust, like just really trust yourself so deeply.
Um, I, we would love for you To join and you can find that information link in the bio or link in the show [00:06:00] notes or on Instagram and we can chat to see if this is a good fit for you.
Kyley: it is. The answer is yes, it is. It is a good fit for you.
Eva: Thanks, Kyley. All right. Okay. What about you, Kyley? What would you like to share with our beautiful audience?
Kyley: So I have a couple of things coming up that I'm really excited about. Um, one is if the listeners remember last year, I ran a course called enter your villain era, which is like the most fucking fun course ever. And, um, It's coming. So I have a wait list now. If you are a people pleaser or a couple people pleaser, if you are someone who has codependent patterns, if you, you know, easily fall into the trap of the good, you know, gender neutral, good girl, and you want to just like, have some more fucking fun, come sign, get on the wait list for Entry of Villanera. That's coming soon.
Eva: I love when you do this work because you're like your sassiness comes out and your sassiness is so fun.
Kyley: Yes. Yes. I'm really trying to like lean into my [00:07:00] Disney villain Maleficent, you know, um, vibes even more. And part of why I love this course is because the whole way that I sell this course is just like memes. Like, just
Eva: Yes, and your account is so saucy and it's fun.
Kyley: I have been prepping for this launch for a fucking year guys, the things that I have saved and like ready to like a roll out.
So if no one, if nothing else, if you don't follow me on Instagram, come, come join for the month of delicious memes. So I'm really, really like, just, I can't wait for that. I, that feels, and it feels very alive for me in my life right now. So I'm very excited about that. And in the same spirit, I have a workshop, free workshop, money workshop coming up called, um, the rich bitch era. And I'm really, this will be very fun. The, um, the origin of it, which if you're on my mailing list, you got this story today, um, is that.
I, someone that I follow that I kind of judge and critique and think I'm better than [00:08:00] in all sorts of, you know, egotistical ways announced that they had like a multi million dollar sales day. And we started like somewhat close to each other and then multi million sales day. Okay. Multi million sales day.
Eva: that's crazy. Actually, I read your email and it was so good, guys. Just by the way, Kyley's email list is just great. Highly recommend that you join.
Kyley: I will never email you consistently, but when I do, I
Eva: Oh, yeah. Same. Same.
Kyley: And I had so many feelings about this person's, you know, astronomical success. And, you know, in the spirit of Villanera, I was just curious. I was very intrigued by my response. And when I sat with my, you know, judgment and jealousy and all of that, what I came down to underneath all the layers, I landed in this place where I was just like, Oh, I am terrified that if I were to let myself have that kind of money, I would just be a terrible person.
And the only thing standing between me and being a terrible person is that I have less. And [00:09:00] who knew that was the fucking operating system, man? Um,
Eva: I think it's so good that you're pointing to that because I think you're speaking to a story that so, like, it is the limiting story that we create that block art that block us from money. And I think a lot of people have it and we don't necessarily always see it as, you know, to your point. Yeah. Mm
Kyley: no. I mean, I'm like it's and it's protection, right? If I'm not trustworthy, if I'm a dangerous, unkind person and the only thing standing between me and destroying everything. Oh, like just being an asshole is that I have limited, you know, resources, um, then great. I'm going to keep trying to protect everybody from me by continuing to limit my resources, but I could also just get rid of that story,
Eva: Yes.
Kyley: right?
I could also just, and so this is what we're going to do in this workshop is really spend some time looking at and sitting with who are you or what, who are you afraid of being and becoming if you let yourself actually have everything that you want. [00:10:00] And there's a lot of work that I do that's about like, you know, unraveling, you don't think you're worthy and this receiving this doesn't feel safe.
And all of that is really important work. And also this is a little bit different. It's looking at like, why do you think you are dangerous? Why do you think you are the villain and need to be protected by having less? Um, And so you can have enter your own rich bitch arrow. So I'm really excited. This is gonna be very fun.
So sign up for that. It'll be free. Yes. There's a replay, but you'll probably only half of you will actually watch the replay. So come live.
Eva: I'm already thinking about it. I'm like, Oh, I think I really need this. Like, yes. Like I can, I know that there are blocks, you know, for me and your workshops are always so rich. I just think it's so amazing. And fun that you do these really like helpful workshops for free and people just get this, like they get so much value out of it.
And then if they want to, they can move on and, you know, work with you and all these other ways. But, um, yeah. [00:11:00] It's
Kyley: Yeah. Last time, the last workshop that I did for context, I mean, I will toot my own horn because I had two P each day of the last workshop was a two day workshop, a different person each day burst into tears and said, this is the breakthrough that I've been waiting for, for years in my free workshop. And that happens every single time I run a workshop because.
I don't, I don't, I don't give a shit. I don't give a shit about playing right. I'm not playing some game where I'm like, let me just tell you all about me for an hour and then convince you and manipulate. No, I'm just going to like, I'm here to make big fucking magic and change the world and blow shit up.
That isn't serving any of us. And I want you to come on the party and, um, and we're gonna fucking fun. So come be in this workshop and then come join what comes next.
Eva: Woohoo! Yes, baby! On fire! Okay, so are we ready to dive into Meaninglessness Part 2?
Kyley: Yes.
Eva: but can I start for just context [00:12:00] again? I highly recommend that you go back and listen to part one, but the point is, is like meaninglessness is we give meaning to everything, especially in the spiritual world. I think there's this idea of like, things are happening for us, and
Kyley: Everything happens for a reason,
Eva: happens for a reason, which is actually really interesting that I'm saying noticing right now is like, I think.
There's, there's a point in our journey where in our spiritual path, I would say maybe if I were to divide it into like, I don't know, I don't like these words, like the beginning, like, or, or more advanced. I don't love these words, but just, you know, bear with me. I think we make meaning in the beginning.
And I think as we continue to move, evolve in deeper into spiritual, spiritual understanding, we actually this, then we begin to actually play more with meaninglessness.
Kyley: I think we, I think you and I, I think that has been the journey for you and I. Don't [00:13:00] know that that is the journey.
Eva: yeah, yeah, yeah
Kyley: Um,
Eva: that makes sense. Okay. And, so, but, but again, because that has been my experience of like, meaning has actually been really helpful for me, or at least I think it's been helpful, which is partly what I want to dissect in this episode. It's really scary for me to let go of meaning.
Kyley: yeah. And so again, just to give context, what we're talking about today here is this idea that our stories and our attachment to story and our need for our story, which can be story can be our identity, right? Story can be the stories we tell ourselves about people in the world or why things happen. Um, All of these, all of these ways that we make meaning that we cling to story, what Eve and I are playing with is the way in which that also is actually a tremendous cause of our suffering.
And that [00:14:00] for all that meaninglessness seems like dangerous and cynical and,
Eva: Neolistic
Kyley: and nihilist,
Eva: like, it doesn't, you know, nothing matters. Like, if there's no story, then like, what's the fucking point? Yeah. Mm
Kyley: That, and, and we're playing with this idea that. That is actually, that's actually its own story, and its own, and, and that there's real freedom and joy that happens when we just, like, surrender to the is ness without needing our story, while in the energy of paradox also acknowledging, like, we are creatures of story, right?
We don't, and so, and so So that's the, that's, that's our backdrop.
Eva: Wait, can I, can I add something to that that I think is interesting? Yeah. While also allowing there to be room for story, because I could also see immediately how, um, rejection of story is Also suffering, being like, oh wait, well now I get it, like Ornstein's story, like meaning, everything's supposed to be meaninglessness.
And then, and then you, you're trying to build a world where you're not putting meaning to [00:15:00] anything. That's just as much of a, of like a trap or, or you're still stuck in this loop. Right. Yeah.
Kyley: , I was talking about this with a client actually just the other, just yesterday that, you know, she was saying, well, I know this is just story. Because a big part of the course I teach, Surrender Magic course is about this practice, right?
Of like how we can fall beneath our stories. And she's like, I know this is just a story. And I was like, hold up. To reject your story is also story, right? To like the, the, the, it's subtle, but it, but it's about sinking. For me, it's always energy of sinking beneath, or maybe like loosening your hold on, but to reject your story, It's just you creating the story, the story is bad, that meaning is bad, that you're not allowed it, that you're doing it wrong, if you're meaning making right, and then that just becomes its own kind of weird gaslighting self rejection thing that doesn't help anybody either, so.
Um, this might be why sometimes people say that our podcast is like, what did, what did someone, Melissa, one said? It's like a [00:16:00] PhD.
Eva: Oh, yeah. She said our podcast is PhD level spiritual podcast. You know, we love that.
Kyley: You love that. I think it's cause we do shit like this. That's like, you know, how nuanced can we get in? Uh,
Eva: Yeah.
Kyley: so I think there are two main places that we were thinking about talking about today. One is. Is the end of the last podcast you were talking about how like, well, story, my meaning making is good and it's helped me in all these ways. And I asked the question without, you know, I asked the question without an answer of like, is it good?
Is it helpful? And then, um, because we were just, we were differentiating between like kind of helpful stories and unhelpful stories. Right. Cause an unhelpful story is like, I'm alone because everybody hates me and I'm the worst. And a helpful story is like, maybe, you know, My suffering has given me X, Y, and Z or this painful thing happened because it gave me X, Y, and Z.
And so I think one place we want to talk about is like [00:17:00] how those stories feel helpful and then question whether or not they really are.
Eva: Helpful. Yes. Okay. So, so can I give you an example of one of my favorite stories?
Kyley: Yes. Mm hmm.
Eva: And basically what I mean by stories is again, meaning, like the meaning that I place on life as to like, oftentimes for me, my meaning is around like, why did something happen? And so a story that I think has served me greatly is that Um, my mother's like growing up in a really difficult like childhood situation with my mother who was an alcoholic and she was mentally ill and you know, like all this stuff.
It was so painful back then and even when I was a kid, I remember praying to God and being like, why? Like, I didn't understand like, why is this happening? Like it was so terrifying and none of it made any fucking sense. It was complete chaos. Anyway, that's just interesting to [00:18:00] note because I'm like, oh, no wonder I love asking why these days, you know, it's like wired into my system.
But anyway, but my, the meaning I've made out of this really painful situation was that, oh, my mother is, is the one who set me on this track of being really living, living in devotion to understand, like, to truth and to my spirituality and to God and to life. And it's like, I'm so curious, you know, I'm so curious.
And I, and I'm so curious about people and, you know, Anyway, as you can see, I feel very passionate about this story and I'm like, and why it served me is because I'm so grateful to, to my experience now, you know, it's like, it's the common story that we all have of like, it's your, it's your, the hardest things in life that actually turn out to be.
the catalyst for the biggest change, right? You know what I mean? And so I do feel really grateful to my mother. And I used to feel like a victim. [00:19:00] I used to be like, oh, and I used to be really resentful towards her. I'd be like, you, you know, whatever. There's all this shit that I would throw at her. And now I see her and I'm like, wow, I got to make something really beautiful out of something that was really
Kyley: hmm.
Eva: difficult.
So, um, It's, it's, well, I can see where making meaning of certain things, oh, I can also give you, I would love to give you example later, also a story that has not helped me of like why something happened. And, but, but in this instance, I think I just want to look at like, so what happens if a story like this is serving us?
Like, do we just keep it? Uh
Kyley: Well, okay. I love this example because I think a lot of people, like you said, can relate to, you know, in, in. of asking the why question is mostly we ask the why question where we're like screaming up at heaven, like why, right? And then there's, there can be this moment that, um, of like relief and security and [00:20:00] blessing that's like, Oh, I can, I can see why this happened.
Right. I can see why this, my heart was broken in this particular way. And,
Eva: huh. Uh
Kyley: and I think there's something really beautiful in that, but I, you like holes, I want to poke. One is. story is not available until it's available. And you couldn't have the story that you have now. And the, and actually even deep in the story, I think the genuine gratitude and compassion and love you have, I mean, I'm constantly in awe.
You know, this, I said this before of like the depth of how much you hold your mom with like real genuine compassion is in part available because. You did feel resentful and you, you, you witnessed all of those other pieces. Like you didn't get to the depth of your, I don't think you have a story so much as you have a feeling of truth of like, this is my arc, right?
This is what has happened. And, [00:21:00] and. At least that's what I hear you speaking to, and part of the way you arrived there is because you let yourself be at each place along the way, and you, and part of, I think, at least in my own experience, the suffering in story is when I try to get to the place you're at faster than I'm able to, right?
So, in the last episode, And I've been sharing a little bit here and there about how, you know, been going through this big friendship heartbreak, um, with Liz's abrupt departure. And and I, I keep creating suffering for myself every time I, I need this, why, right? I want it, I want it to make some kind of sense.
I want it to have been for something. I want to get to the place of like, see, it's all worthwhile. This was for me because I can check the, right. And I, um. Every time I get caught up in that, I end up experiencing a lot of suffering. And every time I drop the need [00:22:00] for that, it's actually the thing that, right.
Cause so I know I can already see it. And so I know, especially another six months from now, I'm going to look back and I'm also going to have a story of like, this is how that, this is how that was a gift for me and how I use that for my benefit and how I am grateful for it, even as it fucking sucked.
But the story is suffering is our need for it when there isn't, when it's not available yet.
Eva: I feel like you said something so intelligent and I'm still actually trying to wrap my mind around this, this idea of like, Oh, you know what I just, what I just shared about my mom wasn't a story as much as it was about, what did you say? Like me just clocking my experience, you
Kyley: Yeah. It's like you're, that's your arc. That's the experience that you've moved through and the place you've arrived.
Eva: And you're talking about, and that's. different from when we feel like we have to make sense of something. We need a story. We need to be like, why did this happen? We have to have a meaning. And then if we don't have it, that's when it causes suffering. [00:23:00] And that's when it's not helpful. Is that what you're saying?
Kyley: Yes.
Eva: But, and, and I, I completely agree. Like, I think my question still is, Isn't, so are you saying like that my whole, you know, everything that I just shared about my mother is not me making meaning? I mean, it's still meaning making, isn't it? Yeah.
Kyley: this is the second hole is that I also think it has to do with how tightly we're holding onto the meaning that you've made. So for example, if you were using, it's, it's like basically when and where we're using meaning as a bandaid. So if you have a moment of rupture where you're like, Fucking pissed at your mom or this huge new wave of resentment or this quiet little wave of resentment comes in and you push it back down with a story that's like, Nope, now we're grateful.
We've reached grateful. My narrative arc is that my mother gave me mean to get this kind. And I said, No, we're not. Then you then your meaning is making [00:24:00] as actually making suffering. But one of the things I know about you is that you hold that that story. Has room for all of you. And so when you have moments of uncomfortable emotions, I watch you like stretch the story so that there's room for like anger or frustration or grief. And so I watch you. Yeah. I watch you use it to love both yourself and your mother instead of. push things away and pretend they're not there.
Eva: Yeah. Oh, that's so good, Kyley. Thank you for, oh, for your kind words, but also for just making that delineation because basically what I'm, what you're helping me see is like, um, yeah, uh, It's, it's, you're just helping me see where story, where it is actually problematic. Like another example of that could be like, if I suddenly wasn't on my spiritual path [00:25:00] anymore for whatever reason, and I like didn't want to do this work and I didn't want to help people or whatever.
And I, and I felt like, oh, but I have to, because, because I had, I don't know, some obligation because of my story of like, oh, this, you know, to help my past suffering make me. Meaning, to be meaningful. And if I didn't, if I was holding on to it, needing to be meaningful in some way, um, that would also cause suffering.
Does that make
Kyley: Yeah. I'm thinking about like, what's coming to my mind is like, do our one is like, how tightly are we holding our stories? And then also how fluid do we let them, like, is there a fluidity versus a rigidity, right? Because the story of, and to keep using your mom as an example of like, no, I am grateful. And therefore I must be grateful.
And therefore there's no room for anything other than Um, specific kind of gratitude that's very rigid and sim, and similarly, if you had a story that was like, no, I [00:26:00] am a spiritual coach. And so I must be, I must do this work. Um, that would be rigid. But if the story, but when our stories have, when we hold them loosely, they are inherently fluid maybe.
Eva: Yeah. Okay.
Kyley: Yeah.
Eva: That makes a lot of sense. All right. I think we're done. Just kidding. Okay.
Okay. No, but did you have any stories that you wanted to share? Cause I think we had each sort of maybe clocked a few before we started recording.
Kyley: Yeah. Well, I was thinking, I was thinking of a couple different stories. so, okay. I've shared this briefly on the podcast before, I think, but. One of the things I think about as a mom a lot is how much my kids are just like constantly evolving and change. Like literally yesterday I was looking at Desi and I was like, you, did you grow or did you grow a foot overnight?
Like all of a sudden he just, it's happens all the, just, it's just, he's just [00:27:00] bigger. He's just bigger in all sorts of ways. And um, And also like very sweetly. So cute. Like if this little boy, he's seven years old and is a giant and also like curled up in my lap, like a, like, you know, he's like that classic, like giant Labrador that doesn't realize he's not a lap dog kind of kid anyway.
And like, he loves, and this is, I couldn't relate to the example I wanted to give. And he like, he loves Winnie the Pooh. He loves literally he came home the other day and his kid, he was like, so and so and so and so in school are watching and then named a horror movie, like a PG 13 horror movie that I, I mean, I don't like horror, but I was like, and he was like, he's like, Meanwhile, he always wants to read Winnie the Pooh before bed, you know, like
Eva: So sensitive and sweet. Yeah.
Kyley: Yeah. And, um, And anyway, side note, also my rule, I wouldn't let him watch a horror movie because that he just, he just, that would not go well. But my rule is [00:28:00] if, if you want to watch something, I will watch it with you. Right. We don't have a, like, that's not allowed. I have a, like, I might heavily discourage.
And then also, but like, you know, there's some Spider Man movie and I was like, I will watch it with you. If your friends are watching and you want to watch it, I will watch it with you. And he's like, no, it's okay. Anyway.
Eva: meaning because that was like he wasn't interested?
Kyley: well, cause he, I, he's, he's, he's sensitive and get scared easily, you know, he'll get there.
But anyway, I don't, I don't have, I say that cause I don't have, um, I don't have like, that's not allowed rules,
Eva: Gotcha, gotcha.
Kyley: from like horror murder, but anyway,
Eva: hmm. Mm
Kyley: I constantly with my kids, I'm trying to hold loosely the story of who they are because like someday Desi's not going to want to read Winnie the Pooh anymore. Ooh, I just got. A little choked up over that and, [00:29:00] and, and also it won't be cut and dry, right? He'll like want to watch a bunch of Spider Man movies and then one day he'll want to go back to reading Winnie the Pooh for a night and then, right? And it's going to happen gradually and it's also going to happen all of a sudden.
And if I hold too tightly the story of who I think he is, I'm not letting him show me who he is. And I'm not giving him space, like I'm not supporting who he, I'm not supporting his becoming, right? I'm just writing a script based on maybe some intuition, but also some projection. And also like, you know, we all, I mean, who, everyone has some experience with their family, right?
Where they're like, Oh my God, my family still sees me as like the 12 year old who, you know, whatever. And so I think this is more of an intention, but it's like, I'm, I, you know, And I know like, I, I know there will be moments where this will be hard that like, you know, probably teenagers are a big year for this where it's like, but you've always been.
And then they just, you know, [00:30:00] maybe one day Brady will just hate art and, you know, and,
Eva: Yeah. It's like that common saying where the parents like, but you love you, but you love dancing or, but you love soccer, you know, and then, and then the teenager is like, uh, not anymore. You
Kyley: yeah, like mom get with the program.
Eva: Mm
Kyley: So, and so anyways, that's, that, that's one like awareness of. It feels like a pitfall. It seems like an easy place for where I will like bump, bump into stories of who they were versus who they are, who they are. Um, and so that was one.. So, okay. I have another story. That's one that seems like a good story. Until I clocked how it was causing all sorts of problems, which is the story that I'm really resilient and that I'm really tough and that I can get through anything.
Right. Which is true. Like I've been through some shit and you put some shit in front of me and I'm like, okay, let's all right. We ride it on, you know, like I, I, it's a thing [00:31:00] that I really love about myself. And all of a sudden one day I saw how in which that story was like a protective blanket.
And as a result, I was creating hard so that I could keep giving myself the validation that, see, we can do hard things. Right? You want validation. You want to believe in yourself. This is the place you you've decided you get value out of doing hard things. So we'll just keep giving you hard. Sure.
Absolutely.
Eva: Yep. Mm hmm. Yep. That's a really, that's a, I'm glad you clocked that. Cause that's a common one too. It's like, wait, you're saying essentially setting yourself up for living a hard life The meaning that you're making is, oh, if you can get, well, cause that was your story and then the meaning, cause I think we're getting kind of lost.
There's story and then there's meaning. Like I want to
Kyley: I like this distinction. Okay.
Eva: that's that's like, and I could see us, I mean, real time audience listeners, if you're listening, like I'm, I'm realizing in real time, like, oh wait, I think we're getting something a [00:32:00] little bit convoluted or, uh, or conflating something, the two things.
Cause like your story is that like, you can do hard things and then the meaning behind that is like, and like. I don't know, like, like,
Kyley: therefore that's where my value comes
Eva: Yes, you're like a really tough person. And yeah, exactly. That's then you're valuable in this way. Yeah. Mm hmm.
Kyley: Oh, that's an interesting distinction, Because story In and of itself is like, you know, chatter or right. Like story doesn't have to, we don't have to, story is like our passing thoughts, right? They just, it just shows up. But meaning is when the passing thought floats by and we're like, yes, that one.
And we just like pull it down.
Eva: we're so identified with it. It gives us some type of like, It makes things make sense, like, story happens, but I think what I [00:33:00] love about meaning is that it helps me make sense. And we all know that I love to make things make sense because I love fucking control. And that's why this is so difficult for me, which is so ironic because, you know, the work that we do, you and I, in this spiritual world, the whole thing is about, like, the illusion of control and how actually that is like the grasping for control is, is where suffering is, what causes suffering.
And so, um, yeah, it's like, it's helpful at least that I can name. that, oh, I know what I'm doing. I want the meaning because it gives me a sense of safety. Basically what it says to me, and I think a lot of people on the show listening to the show can relate, relate, is that like, oh, God is like, this is for me.
Like God is doing something like when something difficult happens, um, it's because it's an initiation. Like how often have you and I said this, right? Like, oh, it's an initiation because God is saying, oh, it's [00:34:00] time for you to learn this. And also. She trusts you that you're ready that you could do this. And so therefore I'm like, okay.
Yeah, uh, You know, let's like saddle up.
Kyley: And that's, and to your point of like helpful meaning there it, cause everything's paradox, there is something really helpful, right? Like,
Eva: Oh, there's something so helpful about it. Like that's the other thing. That's so
Kyley: God, when I. When the shit first hit the fan in December, I would not, I don't, I don't know how I would have gotten through it without making the meaning that like, this is fucking for me. But I think what I think, especially your distinction of like story versus meaning, right? So story is the thought, passing thoughts, the passing narrative, and then meaning is the ones that we just like cling on to like a life raft.
What I want to offer. Is that when we see that, when we see that meaning is [00:35:00] choice and not truth, then we have some power and some agency, right? Like, I actively chose the story that that happened with Liz is for me, right? I'm, I chose that fucking meaning. And so I put my feet on the floor every day and was like, all right.
I, I, and my intention for a really long time was like, show me how much this can be for me. Like, I, I, I, I surrender, I'm, I'm on, I'm on the fucking ride because the rollercoaster has already left. I can't actually get off yet. And the meaning that I am choosing is this is for me, so show me how. And I think there's a, there's, there's something really fun.
I mean, that did not feel fun, but powerful in realizing that you are the one who gets to set the meaning. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.
Eva: okay, okay first of all Kylie [00:36:00] Caldwell just coming in with the wisdom. I love what you said. Meaning is choice and not truth. I like, I'm underlining that because I thought that was so beautiful. But, um, and I just want to, uh, echo that living my life in this way, like if it were a friendly universe, how is this actually for me has changed?
It's just, to me, that's a kindness. It's so loving. And it's, it's, it, it actually For me, legit, 100 percent life more fun. It's fun when I'm like, oh, this like kind of difficult thing happened. How is this for me? I'm like, oh, I get it. I'm in this. I don't know. I kind of like. There's this, this, I think when I'm feeling like a sense of self efficacy, like confidence in myself, I'm like, okay, let's go.
Let's do this. You know, it's like, I'm, I've often said like, [00:37:00] okay, right now I am in self love boot camp. Like, so this really challenging thing has happened for me and I'm like really embarrassed and I'm feeling a lot of shame. What's happening? Oh, I know. I'm in self love boot camp. I'm in this boot camp to love myself even more deeply.
And I feel like lit up, lit up by that because it feels like love. And so that is meaning. That I'm making, and I think, yeah, maybe you just said it, it's that like, get to choose when it's serving us, and, but also, along the way, we might realize that actually it's not serving us anymore. It's that thing that you were talking about earlier on in the conversation, where it's like we, we're grasping onto it so tight, like it has to mean this, it has to mean this, you know?
And then when we can't, when it, yeah, when we can't let that go, that's when it's, it's Um, more harmful than it is helpful.
Kyley: Yeah, and there might be [00:38:00] something like training wheels that is a really helpful meaning until it's not a helpful meaning anymore right like the the story and the identity that I was that I am someone who can do hard things I Got me through some really big shit in my life, right? And and I don't I don't want to make that wrong But I don't want to need it.
Maybe that maybe that's also part of this, right? It's like, I still consider myself someone who can do hard things, but I don't want to need that as like an identity top up. Right?
Eva: yes, yes. Hmm. Okay. I'm going to talk about two things. One, I'd love to share another story and meaning that I had that I think would be interesting. And then also, I just want to talk about like chaos a little bit because always, yes, Kylie always, Kylie is
Kyley: You guys, I
Eva: queen.
Kyley: you can't see. I literally just like, [00:39:00] like, I was like leaning back. And as soon as you said that, I like lead all the way in. Like,
Eva: She's oh
Kyley: you, you summoned me.
Eva: Yes. Yes. Yes. If you guys don't know, Kylie is the chaos queen and we have a whole episode on that. You can go back and like search for, because again, chaos is, it's the same thing for me. Meaninglessness to me is parallel to chaos. It's like, oh my God. If it doesn't mean anything, then like, oh, why are we here?
And, and you're so good at helping me embrace like totally embrace. chaos, which I love so much because you were the one who pointed out to me, Oh, you think you're afraid of losing your mind, but you actually love it. You love losing your mind. And I was like, Oh yeah, ha. Like you're right. Okay. So another example of story and meaning that I had was like, okay, so my ex partner, Adam, if you've been listening to the show for a long time, then you, you know, probably more about.
You know, the history of like, I was, I was with, um, this, this guy named [00:40:00] Adam who I adore. Like, we're still really good friends. We've been friends for, I don't know, 17 years or something. Um, but when we started dating, I don't know if I ever shared this on the podcast, but what happened was I saw us together.
I was at a 10 day meditation retreat and I was, you know, full deeply in meditation and I had a vision. and Adam together in a relationship. And at the time we hadn't, we weren't dating. We were just friends. And I was like, Oh my God, I had a vision! I had a vision that actually I'm meant to be with Adam.
And I like totally floored me and it came out of nowhere. And I like, you know, I, it wasn't anything I was planning because of that vision. That felt so real. like strong in my body. And it felt like a spiritual experience, you know, because of that, that's what set our relationship in motion. Cause then I like reached out to him and when we started hanging out and then we started dating and then we both had the story of like, when we first got together, the story of like, Oh, we're meant to be together.
Like, You had this, you had this vision [00:41:00] and and he had the story of actually that he was, he was like ready for a relationship and he was looking for a relationship and I just like came in at the right time and we just basically had the story of like, oh, we're meant to be like this was meant to be. And so, and this is a perfect example of the trajectory of a story.
So. At first, when our relationship started and we were in that honeymoon phase, the story really served us. It was like a happy story. And then as things, our relationship started to evolve and, and we, you know, we were together for five years and obviously we ended up splitting up because we're no longer together.
So, but like by the end of those five years, what happened was both of us were kind of like, but we always thought we were like meant to be, we thought this was it, you know, like we would even refer back to the vision sometimes and be like, you know, like you had that vision and. And, and then the story no longer served us because it actually felt like confusion and we were holding on so tightly to the story that we were trying to make ourselves be together because of the story.
Do you know what I mean? We're like, [00:42:00] no, no, no, but we can't break up because we have to like have trust in this, in this like spiritual thing that happened. And it actually, I mean, I don't know how much it affected us, but it affected us a little bit in which we were, I think we stayed in the relationship longer for, actually for many reasons, as you know, people tend to do, but one of them was also like, oh, we had story, we had, we had this This, we made this meaning, the story was like, Oh, I had this vision and the meaning was, Oh, we're meant for each other.
We're like here to like teach each other or something or something like that. And so that's a perfect example of like a story that like we hold on longer, like we can't let it go.
Kyley: Uh,
Eva: And that's a perfect example of how a story can serve or it can be the illusion of serving, but actually can be harmful when you can't let it go.
Kyley: I mean, yes, everything you're saying here, I mean, this was also, this was a big part of, um, these meaningless episodes might actually be the, like the, the low, the low key Kylie's
Eva: [00:43:00] Oh, this is, this is the, this is the low key, but we're gonna have a big old blowout
Kyley: have the real one, but we went, but, um, but the, um, Cause that was a big part of, um, my like devastation when the shit hit the fan was like, Liz showed up in my life, like on a silver platter from the universe.
It was like, here's your new best friend do everything together. And so I felt betrayed, not just by her, but by like my whole spirit crew. I mean, it's
Eva: Oh. And also let's just Can, yeah. Can we also talk about being mad at God? Like, that's, that's also a really important part of this process is like, oh, when, when the meaning goes away, we're, we're fucking pissed at God. And that can also be like a really scary place to be.
Kyley: Well, and I think part of why meaningless can be really liberating is because if our meaning is, this is for me, everything is for me, everything happens for a reason. We often use that to reject [00:44:00] the ways in which we might actually be fucking pissed at God. So that's one of the reasons I hate that line.
Everything happens for a reason. Because. People, I watch people use it all the time to self reject, right? And like, yeah, in order to get to this point in the like, you know, breakup process, I have been fucking livid at God. I once had a journey early on. I was in a, A really beautiful group container that my friend Jesse Rolkel runs called The Clearing, which if you are, if you do a lot of energy work and you want some support on, on just receiving, she's incredible.
I highly recommend. Anyway, early on she had everyone like, take us on this guided journey, and you walk through a portal, and there's a guide for you, and it was Loki, god of chaos, uh, who, I hang out with all the time and I just immediately shoved him into the snow and started punching him in the face. And he was like, yeah, that's fine.
I deserve it. Go ahead. You're done. You got to get some more out, you know? [00:45:00] Um, and, and I think, yeah, so I think, okay, so a couple of things. One is I can, so I think, um, When we make our meaning, this is for me. We can use that to just like strip away our access to being pissed that something has happened. But then also to your point of like, we can hold onto things longer than we should, and this is a line that I was kind of given years ago, which is.
It's never what it seems and actually in particular, it's a guy in the low has Loki has said many times it's never what it seems and it's almost always moments like that. Like you had this vision, that vision is with a true experience, right? My experience of Liz being someone who is hand delivered by the universe of like, here you go.
She's for you. That is, that was, that was a truth. That was a true experience. And also, then we make the meaning that, and therefore, this is my [00:46:00] person for all time and all ways and, and then we, and then we cling to that meaning. And this line, this line, it's never what it seems. It's always so liberating for me because it's the reminder that, You only ever have a tiny fragment of the puzzle.
And so sure. Tell your story, make your meaning, but be willing to like crumple it up and write a new one at a moment's notice. Because. You are, you, you can't actually possibly see it all. Yeah.
Eva: Oh, that's so good. I'm actually writing that. I'll crumple it up and write a new one because I could see already in many areas of my life where I have these really precious stories right now that are bringing me happiness. And then as you were talking, I was like, Oh, but like, should I not? But am I just doing the thing that I did with Adam making all this meaning?
And then I was like, Oh, but I go, okay, whatever. I can make this meaning as long as I'm willing to crumple it up and rewrite the meaning as on a moment by moment [00:47:00] basis. Or there's also a way when I want to like talk about chaos, which is like, well, what if also we just like didn't put meaning on anything?
Like what if everything really just is like, talk about sayings that are annoying. Like you brought up the one that was like, um, everything happens for a reason, which is like a tricky one. Right. It's something that I've said many, many times. And also I get, it can be like very, yeah,
Kyley: I hate that phrase. It makes my
Eva: like very annoying.
Yes. Yes.
Kyley: I, that's, sorry. Apparently, I find, I'm realizing right now, I don't find any value in that phrase. I think that's, yeah, I'm, I'm actually like, I'm getting hot and red at how much I hate that phrase. Fascinating to watch. You can carry on, but I'm just clocking how much I, that rate, that statement fills me with rage.
Eva: Yes, but and and understandably so and also and also like how often does it do we say this right like oh It's so interesting like like anyway, sorry I don't want I want to move ahead because otherwise I mean it lost to the weeds But the other saying that used to really drive me crazy Not because it was wrong But just because like when people [00:48:00] said it like people I was around people who said it so often but the saying of like it Is what it is, you know, like it is what it is, but that's actually accurate That's the more accurate one.
Like, it is what it is.
Kyley: But I hate them for the same reason because anytime I have never heard somebody say it is what it is with a, without actually completely rejecting themselves. There is. It's,
Eva: for sure. Or of someone else or of life or of emotions. Yeah.
Kyley: always, it's always devoid of like a deeper compassion and a deeper it's always like, well, I don't actually deserve someone to take good care of me and love me. It is what it is. Right.
Eva: can't, or I can't do anything about it. Fuck it. Or I guess, you know, like, this is just how life is.
Kyley: right. And, and, and there's not a, it's not, there's a, it's very, and I find this, it's this, I found the same energy and people say when people say everything happens for a reason. Um, And I think actually one of the reasons I hate everything happens for a reason is because also, yeah, the [00:49:00] reason is whatever you make, you get to pick the reason you've picked, like, so that statement irritates me because I'm like, you you're the reason what's what is the reason that you're making right to the point of this conversation, but I really hate the it is what it is because it never actually feels like acceptance it always feels like resignation.
Eva: Yeah.
Kyley: And those are not the same
Eva: Yes. Yes. But, but the truth of it, like if you were to the, like the words itself, actually, I think there's more truth in that. It's like, everything is Basically, it's a saying, it's a way of saying everything just is, it's isness. Yes. Okay, but before we go into that segment of this, of this conversation, and then I want to talk about chaos, one last thing I want to share about the liberation that comes when we don't have meaning is, is going back to this Adam story.
So, you know, Adam, I then broke up and even though it was like, you know, by choice and it was mutual and it was beautiful. It was also painful. And there were months afterwards where I was going through this inward journey [00:50:00] of, you know, this, you know, driving solo across country and living in an airstream and like just doing all this soul searching.
And I was so, there were, there were a couple of months where I was really, um, resentful. And I had the story of like, I wasted time. Like we were in this relationship for five years and Uh, you know, I had stories of like I wasted time and also whatever, all the stories that come together, they come when like a relationship doesn't work out.
And I saw, it was so beautiful when it happened. I let go of my story of like, I think I asked myself like, what would happen if I didn't make our breakup mean anything? What if our breakup didn't mean anything? anything. Like I let go of all meaning. And what came through was all of the, an experiential memory place of like, our relationship was so [00:51:00] beautiful.
And again, I'm getting like getting emotional about that too. It's like, I love this human being. I love, I love this human. And it was beautiful for in the time, like it was a gift. It was such a gift. It doesn't like, if you know this idea of like, I think it was the story of like, I let go of the story of like, it had to like work out.
It had to work out. Like, and once I let go of that, I was like, I saw that that story and these meanings were robbing me of the experience that I actually had, which was like a really beautiful experience of friendship and intimacy and fun with somebody for a period of time. And then that period of time ended.
And it didn't end. And, and it was just very liberating. Like I think we talked about how like letting go of meaning and story is liberating. It was exactly that because I was like, Oh, look at how I'm completely robbing myself of this thing that could have, that could have been, yeah, that was like, why would I do that to myself? [00:52:00] Like, why would I do that to myself? And that, and I can't tell you, like, it just, I think that's actually what has prepared me. And then I think that just opened up my whole world for new relationships, because when I was still in the story of like, oh, whatever, like, it didn't work out or we're supposed to be together.
It was time like all of the negative stories. Um, my heart was still like closed in some way, or it was just, you know, living in limited, limited stories. So,
Kyley: yes, I, I really appreciate you sharing that in all sorts of different ways. And. And I think what's interesting is as you said it, I could feel the parts of my heart that were like, well, that's not for her, but we are, we are still invested in the meaning of our breakup. Thank you very much.
Eva: Mm
Kyley: And, and it's not, I'm so I'm literally recording this brought this episode because I wanted to talk about meaninglessness because it has been such a like bomb in my own, like getting, you know, my own breakup [00:53:00] and I'm watching how I can feel as you said that I can feel the parts of me that were like, We're not, we're not ready for that yet.
Right. There's a, there's a part of me. It's like, basically I have the meaning of when we get to that place, that thing that you're describing, I will be able to close the chapter. I will no longer be upset. I will no longer cry about what happened. Like, and, um, you know, if you've ever been left in particular, like you want to just, you want so bad to get to the place where you're like, It doesn't matter anymore that you hurt me, you know, and I'm not there yet. The meaning of like this, which is why, which I mean like my need for like, I can feel the part of that's just still churning on some story about like in this moment where we're on the betrayal chapter, there's been different chapters. That's the churn that's happening now is about the feeling of, you know, having been betrayed and, and, um, And [00:54:00] it's funny because, um, one of the other lines people have said, this one is true and I don't hate it the same way, but people always say they're like, it takes the time it takes.
Right. And
Eva: I actually love that saying because I'm like, it's like, yes, like, yes, like, cause there's no way to know. It just
Kyley: Yeah, and I, I watched, I watched how that phrase makes me angry, not because, or frustrated or angry, not because I don't like the phrase, but because it's like, I basically, I've been watching how I can feel. There's just two parts inside of me right now, the two wolves, if you will. Um, and one is like really sad and hurt.
Right. I didn't like. And a little embarrassed that she's still hurt, right? And, um, [00:55:00] and also this, like, this soft love. It's like, and also, like, and also I still love you, right? And so all of that is, like, there's this soft sadness. There's this, um, love. Um, there's this, like, yearning to love. There's this embarrassment for yearning to love, right?
There's all of this, like, soft, and then there's this, like, Outreach, right? The like, this protector that's like slash and burn, fuck it all, like, you know, be mad, like, you know, have a vendetta, be vengeful, like, they're like, however you're I'm feeling like there's like this other part of it. It's like, just angry.
And I'm watching so much. And I don't know how this relates to meaninglessness. But, um, you know, but I'm watching so much of the journey is like, It's like these two parts started really far away and they're just like coming closer and closer and closer to [00:56:00] coexisting. And, and I think I, I, I can't, those are the, those parts of those parts of me and the way in which they're not.
Yet fully settled in the center are why I need the story of, and why I'm, why the part of me that's seeking meaning and seeking why and seeking validation and seeking narrative and seeking control, ultimately it's, it's in this tension of those two energies feel like a push and pull when ultimately there are, they're just two, they're just
Eva: two parts
Kyley: two halves of a whole.
Eva: Can you say more about that last part? 'cause I'm not sure I understand about these two parts.
Yeah.
Kyley: Yeah, so one of the things I've been watching, you know, Surrender Magic came out of, in some ways came out of this, this experience
Eva: Surrender Magic is a course that
Kyley: is, is a course that
Eva: the way. Mm-Hmm?
Kyley: and, um, and meaning [00:57:00] and control and are clinging to story. Or the things that pull us out of surrender. Right. And so we could talk about like, surrender and is ness and like being with the is ness of what it is.
And just like this beautiful story you said about like, what if everything that happened to me, Adam had no story and it was just, we loved each other. And then it was, and then it was done. Um, and how beautiful and freeing that was. And then I was watching my own, like the places where I was like, I don't want to let that in.
Right. So you're offering like a real lived experience of Kylie. You would love to not be in suffering about your own breakup. You also love meaninglessness. You're making us talk about it for four hours and. And so here's the antidote and immediately, or not antidote, but like here is, here's a, here's a gift, right?
This is available. And immediately I just felt where all the resistance to actually just accepting and therefore letting go of what has happened, [00:58:00] where all that resistance is living. And I just watched it like, wow. rear up inside of me. And, and so that's part of the context. And then what I have watched is good.
Eva: Can I just say this? 'cause I, I want say, let interject really quickly just to, I think it's a really important to note while what I shared might be helpful in some way or might be an offering, I think it's also really, um, important to note that. I think, like, the way through this is to completely allow yourself to not want to, whatever it is that you're experiencing, to not want to let that in, if that's what that's your experience is.
You know what I mean? Yeah. Like,
Kyley: Yeah. You can't force it
Eva: mm hmm. And also you're, and you're completely allowed to be like, I don't, I don't want to do that right now.
Kyley: yes, yes, yes. I, I, I know that to be true. [00:59:00] Um, The part of me that knows that she's better than the bullshit is like, yeah, but also we could just be over it. Right? So so that's where so I know that that's true But that's where I was saying these two these two parts that are intentioned. It's like very tender Vulnerable sad.
I love this person How could you do this to me? Right? Like all of all of that is just this like sad softness. And then there's this like angry protector part who's like, and also I should say that angry protector part also alternates between being like, fuck God, fuck this person who hurt me. Also, and then as soon as I do that, then the sad me is like, but also we love her.
Don't be mad. Right? So, you know, And then also that gets really weaponized, right? I've just like, it's just like being mad at me for still being sad. Right. And, and, and one of the things I know about my own journey. Is that I can feel these two, like they're on a little, they're on a, they're on a, [01:00:00] they're on a journey and they feel like enemies right now, right?
The angry me is mad at the sad me. The sad me is scared of the angry me.
Eva: hmm. Mm hmm.
Kyley: so much of this journey, these past six months has been these two parts walking, uh, walking to each other. And I just know that when they make peace with these two parts of me, make peace with each other and they live in a settled way.
Then I won't need the story anymore. Then I won't need the suffering. Then I won't need to make meaning that place that you're speaking to my own version of it will just arrive. And when these two parts decide that they love each other,
Eva: Yeah. Yeah. Well, that's beautiful. I think, have you, have, are you, is this the first time that you're becoming like this clearly cognizant of that?
Kyley: I think I've seen it. I've seen many iterations of it, many different times. This is a particular kind of [01:01:00] clarity because also I think I've only recently reached the place of. Wanting to be over it, right? Like anyone who's been through a breakup knows that for a long time, you don't actually want, like,
Eva: Oh, totally. You don't want to go, yes. Mm
Kyley: you want to be sad and angry and like, talk about it endlessly.
And I think I've only recently reached the place of like, actually wanting
Eva: hmm. Mm hmm.
Kyley: be over it. And, right. And I've had to do some real intentional, like spellcasting of like, okay, I, I want to want to get over it, right. Um, So there is, there's some, there is some real clarity that, you know, I mean, also another thing that what I'm offering is like, the only answer is self love, right? But this particular, and I also think there's, there's some interesting clarity coming in, in the spirit of meaninglessness. I often teach and think about how when I'm churning on story, it means there's a [01:02:00] deeper feeling that needs to be felt, right? That's an indicator when we're churning on story. But I think what I'm actually also receiving is the gift, this is what's happening right now is I'm seeing the gift that is story and meaning making because it's giving me the material to let these two parts of me walk towards each other. They don't know how to get, they don't know how to get to a place where these two parts of me love each other equally and in balance. And so the story. And the, and the ruminating and the churn and the suffering ultimately that I don't enjoy is also like, the material that these parts of me are using to find each other.
Eva: Yeah,
Kyley: never seen that before.
Eva: Yeah, it's actually really beautiful.
Kyley: I have a question for us to talk about.
Eva: Okay. And then [01:03:00] also, sorry, before we dive in, at some point I want to lead us back to chaos.
Kyley: Okay. This question might maybe get to that,
Eva: Yeah. Okay. So yeah, let's, let's start from here. Okay.
Kyley: okay. Also I like, these are moments where I feel really loved and taken care of because I like that you introduced chaos. You didn't talk about chaos, but I did just have a very beautiful
Eva: Mm hmm.
Kyley: and I can feel my favorite little God of chaos being like,
Eva: Oh, that's interesting.
Kyley: yeah, like, Oh, I was summoned. I delivered, sprinkled a little fairy dust, gave you what you needed.
Eva: And it's also never what it seems, like,
Kyley: it's never what it seems.
Eva: yes, yes. Ha ha ha. Okay.
Kyley: So I have a story. I have a question and I think they might actually, it might weave with your, with, with your, where you want to talk about it with what chaos, which is, [01:04:00] what is it that we're afraid that we're going to lose if we lose meaning?
Eva: Oh, yeah, this is exactly this. This definitely leads into chaos.
Kyley: Here's my question. And I think it might lead us back to chaos. Also. Um, what is it that we're afraid that we'll lose if we let go of meaning I
Eva: I love this question so much because I think I know, I know exactly what it is that I'm afraid that I'm going to lose, which is that to me, I'm like, if there is no meaning, um, Life, there'd be a sense of like pointlessness and also like no motivation and no reason and no meaning To do anything which I can see as I say that loud is that's an illusion, right?
But it is a little bit of like, you know, it's like it's like in some way I don't think I'm searching for the meaning of life. But you know, this topic is [01:05:00] alive for a lot of people. It's like, why are we here? Um, it's not at all the same as like, what's your purpose? Because that question annoys me. I don't, I think your purpose is just to be in existence, you know, just to exist.
But actually that's not far off from the truth of like, also, yeah, the, the meaning of life, the meaning, if you don't have meaning, like, But then the meaning is just, just to exist. I think there's some feeling of like, if I, if it doesn't mean anything to me, like basically my meaning of life, we can all, we're all free to choose our own meaning. And I think my meaning is, I just said to exist, to, to be a soul, having a human experience, the experiential, um, the experience of life, which is like so beautiful, right?
That is my meaning. But if I don't have that meaning, I think I'd be like, A little bit like that to me is like a North Star or a compass of sorts. And so I [01:06:00] have this fear of like, Oh, if it's meaningless, if there is no meaning, I keep equating it with chaos and nihilism. Like why would we ever do anything?
And that's just interesting because intellectually I can see that that's not true. But uh, on my day to day level, that's not how I live, you know?
Kyley: got to close the door.
I love this answer because it made me realize that my answer is completely different.
Eva: Oh, do
Kyley: I'm I'm really curious about. So I'm curious about the pointlessness fear. Um, because I, I wonder in some ways if that points to, like I shared at the top of the episode, my realization that I'm afraid that if I had, you know, 5 million sales [01:07:00] day, the truth would be revealed that I would just be a terrible human being, the fear of pointlessness, like the why would I do anything if there's no point to it makes me wonder.
Like, what is it? Like, who is it that you think you are underneath meaning?
Eva: Wait, sorry. Is that a question or is that a thought?
Kyley: It's bolts. You don't have to answer it now, but there's a part of me that's like,
Eva: Well, because every all of its meaning, because I know my answer, who am I underneath is
Kyley: who are you afraid that you are underneath
Eva: who am I afraid that I am underneath meaning? Oh, wait, who am I? I don't understand that question. Who am I
Kyley: Because so my, okay, I'm gonna use the one to one parallel. My fear is that without scarcity, like if I, if I had bajillions of dollars a day, I would be a totally terrible person. And, and so. Limited flow of [01:08:00] resources is reigning in the me who's just an unrepentant
Eva: Exactly. Like you can't be trusted. Mm hmm. Mm
Kyley: So I'm really struck that part of what feels scary about losing meaning is that there's no point. If there's no point, why would I do anything?
Eva: hmm.
Kyley: It makes me think that meaning is like, like a brace that's holding you upright, making you like a productive member of society or, or, or acceptable in some way.
And that underneath that is some fear that without meaning, there's a
Eva: Oh, I see what you're saying. Yeah, that's it.
Kyley: be revealed
Eva: Yeah. And what would, um, and what would be revealed? I think your question is what would be revealed? Um, yeah, I think what would be revealed, but I just immediately saw this image of like a really. depressed Eva, like, like without me, which is interesting because that's not like something I [01:09:00] really like identify with, you know, like depression isn't, oh, anyway, I can go on.
Anyway, whatever. I won't go down that wormhole. Um, but it's this, it's this, yeah, I had this It wasn't so much that like, oh, I'm lazy and that I need to be a productive member of society. It was that it reveals like, oh, wait, if I don't have meaning, yeah, that's really interesting. That's so interesting.
That's like, what would be the like, what is the fucking point? But sorry. And then sorry, I think I'm just having my own. I just answered my own question because I had, um, you know, I, I think I've referenced, I did a ayahuasca ceremony recently. And, and. I had a clarifying moment that answered this question, and it was so clear to me in that moment when I was like dancing with life that I was like, Oh, I know [01:10:00] the point is to have fun.
Like, like, what's the fucking point? I'm like, It's just, I just, I just had this full circle experience. I'm like, yes, that is true. Like, I think there is a fear underneath there of like, without meaning. It's like, what's the fucking point of all of this, dude? Like, please, seriously, someone tell me, because there's a lot going on and sometimes a lot of it is hard and terrible and nasty and awful and blah, blah, blah, like, why?
Like why? Why the fuck am I here? You know, I can even feel myself getting angry, like resentful, God, like, what is the fucking point? And then I was like, there's only. One point, for me, everyone, I think everyone, you can come up with your own answer, but when I like, looked within, or even looked without, like with, I was dialoguing with life, I was like, Oh, the point is to have fun. Which is interesting because, but again, isn't that kind of just more meaning making?
Kyley: maybe, but again, we're, do we know, do we, do we see that we're choosing the meaning
Eva: Yeah. Like we get to
Kyley: are we, or are we [01:11:00] feeling that, you know, the, the meanings chosen for us? I'm really, so, okay. So what came up for me is. Um, totally unconcerned about what's the point, which is just interesting to note. Uh, my immediate sense is who's going to, who's going to take care of me.
Eva: Oh,
Kyley: a reason and meaning and everything happens for a reason, this is probably why that line makes me so mad is because there's a part of me that actually really needs that and wants that. And without meaning that I'm like alone in the wilderness.
Eva: wow. I want to point out just everybody that I think this is like a really, um, powerful question that, you know, each person can ask themselves, because I think what it reveals is really fascinating, because I think it'll give you the answer, like, even because Like, an answer that maybe you don't expect, like, or [01:12:00] maybe the answer, if there is such a thing.
Because immediately as you say that, I'm like, okay, first, I just want to acknowledge that I totally can relate to that. The depression piece is a little bit similar. This idea of like, well, then, like, we're not gonna, no one's in charge, like, who's gonna do anything, you know?
Kyley: Yeah.
Eva: then so the question that I want to ask you in response is, so who is going to take care of you?
Kyley: It's me and I don't want to do it. I want someone else to do it. I mean, it's life, right? It's I mean, I can pick, I guess, I guess I could pick if we're making our meeting. Um,
Eva: Yeah. That's what I'm asking. What do you pick? What feels true to you and you may not have an answer right now, but
Kyley: I mean, I think that's, what's interesting, right? Is like, I find, and I feel, and I experienced the rhythms of life itself taking care of me [01:13:00] all of the time. Oh, and this is interesting. I mean, like this heartbreak has shown me that. Perhaps most profoundly because it's been so grueling and so sad and also so clearly for me again Perhaps because I chose that and also Okay, let me see if I can put this into words the me who needs to be taken care of Is the one who thinks she needs meaning right? And it's like the it's like the fabric of life and the rhythm of life is taking care of me But I think my job is to do the weaving which is meaning making I can feel You Life and chaos and chuckling at me right now
Eva: I can, I can feel it too.
Kyley: right?
Like you are, you are, you're asking who's going to take care of you and you're tired of taking care of yourself. And then they're just showing me how the weaving that I'm [01:14:00] doing is just like, there's like busted up basket weaving from like middle school art class. It's got like a thousand. It's like the thing that like your, your kid brings home and you're like, great job.
What is
Eva: in, when in fact the weaving that life does for you is like immaculate beyond your imagination. It is so, it's just intricately perfect. I
Kyley: And so they're like, what if you just put down the basket? They're like, you're not even a basket weaver. Like go be a singer and a dancer.
Eva: love this so much. Like that's,
Kyley: that's good.
Eva: no, you go, you go.
Kyley: Well, then, so immediately I asked the question again, Okay, well, then what am I afraid I'm going to lose if I let go of the basket weaving, if I let go of the meaning making? And then the answer is much more clear and it's control.
Eva: Yeah.
Kyley: Right? That's it. It's like, okay, true. So I can put down the basket weaving.
Life will take care of me. It will do a much better job. It's what I [01:15:00] fucking want. And also, then I have to let go of control.
Eva: And I think this is the dance of like, It's a lot easier to let go of control when we actually trust life, like when we like actually see that they're weaving this immaculate basket in perfection and that life always shows up as perfection.
Kyley: Yeah.
Eva: Like, can we actually trust life? And then there's other things too.
It's like, yes, of course, control, you know, I love control. And it's like, well, for me, if I don't have control, I don't feel safe. And so then it's like, what is it that I really need? Like, what can I give myself? And it's oftentimes like, what do I need to give myself to feel safe? And then on, and it just goes, you know, it's this ongoing unfolding of things that we're always talking about.
Well, for me, how, how do I feel safe? I need to know how to feel my emotions, like I need to not reject any part of me.
Kyley: Yeah. It's funny. The image is coming into my mind now is the idea of like substitution. [01:16:00] If you're trying to break it, you know, if you're trying to quit smoking and you start chewing gum, like I'm almost asking, okay, if what I think I need is control, is there, is there a sub, is there some sugar free gum a girl can get as a control substitute? You know, cause I don't think I know how to cut it. I don't think I know how to quit control. Hard, cold Turkey.
Eva: Well, I mean, I think you're being a little hard on yourself. I don't think, I
Kyley: myself.
Eva: mean, I think this is what we're all learning. Like, like, Um, essentially what you're speaking to. I don't, I know, I know one person in my life who knows how to not control things. And that person is someone who I consider enlightened.
You know what I mean? So, so yeah, I'm like, yeah, you don't know how yet, but actually that's also not true because think of all the ways that you've already let go of control, you know, in comparison to how you used to live. It's an ongoing adventure, I would say.[01:17:00]
Kyley: this is, this is juicy. This is a good. I hope anyone, I hope at least one person out there is getting something out of this, but this episode is entirely for me.
Eva: Oh, I mean, I'm getting something out of it. So I hope so. I trust that people are because I think this is such a juicy topic, but sorry. And, and, and I just can't let go of this because it's like running in my head. I was also thinking about my answer about depression being like, what's the point? Like, I'm afraid I just be like, I saw a vision of me just being a blob on the floor.
Like really just like, not just like depressed, but like, like gross, you know, like she hasn't brushed her teeth in days. Like she's in like Gross sweatpants or hairs matted all over her face like like there's no joy in life All the joy has been sucked out because of them because I'm like, what's the point and then I was like And then what's coming up for me is like, oh, I'm sorry It's going deeper because I think I I had this full circle moment where I was like, what's the point?
It's it's for fun and that's great. But I think I've robbed myself of going deeper into what I'm really afraid of [01:18:00] And I think what I'm afraid of is if there's no point, I was like, okay, so what if I experimented with living as if life had no point? And then what I saw was, oh, then I would be chaotic.
Like I can't be trusted. Like I would be, um, an anarchist, you know, I'd be an anarchist and I'd be selfish and I'd be disgusted and I would just fuck everyone over and I'd be like, you know, it goes back to what you're saying. I can't be trusted. That's, that's what it's revealing to me again. My story of badness. Which is what LOIP is all about y'all. Loving ourselves and devour is about Remembering our innate goodness and really trusting that but but and that starts with seeing where we don't trust that we're good
Kyley: Yeah.
Eva: Oh, isn't this just like so like it's so this runs so deep for me. That's like that Yeah, we all like we all just at the core [01:19:00] there's that what what what either limits us or scares us into illusions is our story like that we think there's something wrong with us you know or for you is that like you're you're bad what was it if you if you had all the money if you had all the money that you'd be a bad person
Kyley: Yeah. It's just, yeah. An unrepentant asshole. I think
Eva: yeah okay yeah there it is yeah exactly There, me too, that's what I, that's another way, that's a really great way of how, of naming what I think chaos feels like. You're an unrepentant asshole, you're a sociopath, you're like, what, you know?
Kyley: I mean, as someone who hangs out with the God of chaos, he is an unrepentant asshole. Like that's actually true because chaos, there's a couple of different layers here, but like, and also in the spirit of like, enter your villain era, like what good is penance, right? [01:20:00] Like I had this experience when we were in France where I observed.
In Paris, you know, you're like waiting for the bathroom or you like you think you see someone and you're deciding who's going to go first or whatever in America, especially as women, we say, I'm sorry, everybody says, I'm sorry,
Eva: mm
Kyley: but just could just like look two people looking at each other and deciding who's going to go first.
The answer is, I'm sorry, right?
Eva: Mm hmm.
Kyley: No one fucking says, I'm sorry. And in, in French, my experience in French culture. In the, like, navigating the streets, no one says, I'm sorry. They say, excusez moi or pardon, right? Which means excuse me or pardon me, but they don't say sorry. And I was, and I've been struck by that because it's just like, what are all the ways that I am just saying, I'm sorry for existing. And saying that, like, what I need is a thing to apologize for. And, like, maybe I do want to be[01:21:00]
Eva: Oh my God. Well, that's sorry. I just had like a revelation. I agree. I think I, we do. It's just that I've never thought to me, that's like what I call word redemption, you know, or actually it's the one where like, what my clients, want to do. What one of my clients used to say, it's like, oh yeah, that's just like a, a really great different angle of looking at, at the word repent.
Yeah, maybe I don't like, yeah, you're right. Maybe I don't want to do that. Like, because, because I've never saw before how being repentant was actually so toxic. You know, we're, we're, we're raised to believe that that is goodness, actually. Um, and actually what I've been seeing so clearly, oh my God, all of this just lines up with all these like lessons that I've been experiencing in life recently, including the one that you just expressed about like trusting life, like dancing, like life can do it way better than we can.
It's also this idea of like, I have seen so [01:22:00] clearly, so clearly that when I live without self condemnation, my fear was that I would be a sociopath, but I'm actually like, without self condemnation, I am fucking awesome. I am so much more available. I'm so much more generous. I'm so much more loving because the world is not a threat.
And I've been on, when I'm around people. And again, this is very rare who like actually live with zero self condemnation. You think it sounds like they're going to be sociopaths, but actually like there's so much love within them.
Kyley: Because the world is not a threat.
Eva: Yeah. Yeah, the world's not a threat. And therefore, they are like more, instead of separation from people, it's unity. Because there's no story of badness within them. And when we don't have any story of badness within ourselves, we don't see stories of badness within other people. It means [01:23:00] we see that people make mistakes and that we do, we cause harm, but not because like we are inherently bad.
Kyley: Right. Ooh.
Eva: Oh, this conversation is taking us on a journey. I love
Kyley: still didn't actually talk about chaos because I interrupted
Eva: Oh no, I think we did. It's like, what are we afraid of? Like, that's. Right? Like, why is meaninglessness so scary? Because it feels like chaos. That's what I meant when I said I want to talk about chaos anyway.
Kyley: I wasn't sure if you had a specific chaotic question
Eva: No. No. No. Yeah. So. Mm hmm. Mm hmm.
Kyley: Well, I will actually, I will add something about chaos to the mix here. I think the freedom and the terror in chaos Which we've spoken about before a little bit, is that it is everything, right? That control slices things up and says like, this is acceptable, [01:24:00] this isn't, this is in, this is out. Chaos is the truth that everything is everything. And so, like the truth is, I am a terrible monster, right? The truth is, you are an anarchist asshole, right? We are those things, right? And it's only illusion that we tell ourselves we're not those things.
Eva: Mm hmm. Yep.
Kyley: And the more we try to, the more we try to reject them, the also there's like a, they dig their heels in or their claws in. And, and so I think there's a lot of pieces to chaos that make it uncomfortable. And, but, and one aspect of it that is both uncomfortable and liberating is like, you are all of the things.
And so the redemption is not, oh, no, no. See how I am these like nice, tidy, orderly, good things. It's the, the [01:25:00] redemption is. You're fucking everything
Eva: Mm
Kyley: none and all of it belongs because all of it is,
Eva: hmm. Mm Let me sit with this for a little bit. What that is. Hmm. Gosh, there's so many things I want to say about this and I feel like, I don't know if we're going to need a part three of this conversation or what because like where this is leading us is really interesting, but I hear you, right? All of this is. And when I think about consciousness and nature, Like, basically what happens, how I imagine nature exists is that there is no good or bad.
So there's no label of like, okay, so you are a sociopath and that's good or bad. It's just, you just, there's space for all of it. It's a holding. It just is. It's just an is ness. Um, and so I, I, I like, I'm on board with that, but the, [01:26:00] the thing that I, I guess I, on a contrary. On the contrary, there's also a sense of like, and maybe this is just semantics, but when you're saying we are all of those things, I think that's true.
But I think really what I would say is that we can be, we can act like all those things and we can like be all those things at points. But I think that's not actually who we are, meaning I think our, who we are, our essence is actually universal consciousness. Um, and so, and
Kyley: isn't universal
Eva: if we're conscious to this, everything.
Yes. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Universal consciousness, all those things. Yeah. You're right. Okay. There we go. Thank you. That was actually super helpful for me. Cause you're right. Like full circle. Like it's, well, who we are as universal consciousness without a story. So yes, we might like that, that idea of being a sociopath, that's a human story.
Like that's, that's a label, but in, in universal consciousness, [01:27:00] That, that label doesn't exist. There's no judgment of that.
Kyley: And I think what's also coming to me is how one of the other points of suffering and meaning is it is inherently, inherently seeks to exclude things right in like making an arc and making a narrative. It just can't help but leave some things out and, um, and so there's inherent suffering when something's left out,
Eva: Mm hmm. Mm hmm.
Kyley: right? Because we are, because everything is everything and you are everything and again, that's one of the reasons why I've watched as I try to Surrender more deeply and, and, and get to a place of like completion and closure around the situation that happened with Liz.
One of the things that I'm watching is, like, I could be at the place where I say, like, we're good. Like, chapter complete. I have moved on. [01:28:00] Like, I'm fine, and all of that is, all of that is true, and also, I can feel these little, like, splinters and threads that are still longing to be, like, loved into inclusion, and that the chapster still wants to be, chapster In process, in the process of being written because those parts don't want to be left out. And I'm trying to explain how this makes, how this all goes together in my head. And I have watched how incomplete meaning has felt time it's doesn't, every time it's excluding some, some splinter.
Eva: hmm. Mm hmm. Mm
Kyley: And going back to the example about your story about your mom, and I was saying how I watched that you're, the meaning you have about your relationship with, in your history with your mom is this, is this fluid thing that can expand and absorb any [01:29:00] of your experiences with your mom.
And so it's like a generous and generative meaning. And if it ever stopped making space for something, then it would like crack and it would, and then in the crack, it would like, then that's the place where it would expand. And, and I. I have just watched again and again. Like, I will think that I've reached a point of closure and I'm like, okay, good.
We've closed the chapter where we've moved on. And then weeks later, it starts to like, the fissure reveals itself and things start to bubble up because it's like, no, no, no, these were the fragments that you left at that, that meaning that you made left out and they need to be included if you're going to feel the way you actually want to feel.
And so then I have to like, Okay, we're like mucking back up around in there. Um, yeah. And that, that feels important. I've never seen that before. How much, [01:30:00] like, generous meaning. We have to hold it loosely, but also it has to just have room for all of us.
Eva: hmm. Totally. Yes, 100%. Yep. And I, even in that example, I can see how, like, you're talking about my mom. I don't know if this is exactly the same thing, but you're talking about how, you know, my story about my mom, you said that I hold it so well and that it can expand and, you know, with my experience and what I'm feeling.
But the truth is, I can also see times where, like you said, there are cracks where it isn't helpful because, for example, this isn't exactly the same thing, but basically when I treat my mother unkindly or I lose my temper or I'm impatient and I have the story of like, I should, I should be different than this because I'm a spiritual person.
Like, it's so silly that I can, I can see the silliness in that. But I do think that of like, I should know better than this. I should be better than this. [01:31:00] And I use my spirituality like against me. And that's when it's not. That's when it's not expanding to hold everything
Kyley: Hmm.
Eva: it just, when you talked about Liz and your experience of like, yeah, it's, it really is this, I, I don't know.
I'm doing this thing with my hands. It's like a jellyfish, you know? It's like you gotta be able to like it open and close and open and close the story. And it's beautiful when we let it flow like that. Mm-Hmm.
Kyley: Yeah. And, and I think sometimes that fluidity isn't available. And so we have to expect it. So something breaks and
Eva: Yep.
Kyley: breaking is like the past couple of days, just as an example, all of a sudden the past couple of days. Like over the weekend and on Monday, this is a Wednesday when we're recording this, I just was like, all of a sudden, like in my fucking head about it's been, it was just, I was just in my head about what had happened in a way that I hadn't in a really long time.
And I was like, okay, I know some new thing is like trying to [01:32:00] reveal it. And I was like, I was frustrated and I was like, kind of at a loss. It was just this feeling of like, I don't even know what's trying to show up. Like I, I was, I was, I was just annoyed, right? And um, and I was, and I was in my head and then I was like doing a lot of disassociative, like my phone screen, my screen time was like through the roof.
And anyway, then I had like this really beautiful conversation with a friend and, and she took me on this journey. And I realized I needed to, I just needed to be fucking pissed and I still wasn't fully letting like this kind of anger just needed its moment and its visioning of expression. Um, I think specifically because some part of me, some internal part of me needed an energy of like, An internal boundary setting, right, that I needed to have in order to then create safety to then, like, you know, move on.
Um, well, actually just to [01:33:00] elaborate on that more because I think it's kind of interesting. Basically, if we don't, we don't trust ourselves to advocate, we don't trust ourselves to set a boundary. We will keep ruminating on a problem because it's like maintain, it's like the guard dog that's maintaining the boundary.
Okay. But if you know that you'll honor whatever your boundaries are, you don't have to maintain it. So you don't have to ruminate you don't have to fixate on it.
Eva: Oh, totally. Yes.
Kyley: So my fixation was coming up because there was this part of me that was like, bitch, we got to let go on a deeper level. And then that like, sad me was like, no, no, we, we, we know all of this is internal, right?
There's no, no external stimuli happening to cause this experience. Um, anyway, the point that I'm trying to make is. It felt more like fracture, right? It was like this, it was a, it wasn't a fluid thing. It was like, I didn't understand what was trying to reveal itself. I didn't understand how to be in the feeling.
I was [01:34:00] confused in part because I wanted to be confused because I didn't like where I had to go. And, and like, I needed the crack of like, ah, what is this? So then, then in, then that gave space to the fluidity.
Eva: Yep. 100%. Yep. I just had a similar experience like that yesterday, actually. And I don't know if it's helpful. I might say this and then we can edit this out because I feel like the podcast, I feel like we're coming to like a close. And so this may not be like relevant, but it's something I do kind of want to ask you was like, I had a very similar experience yesterday. I had this like, and I was like, Oh, I needed the crack.
in order to get me to this next phase of what I was feeling. And then I was like, but is that true? That's just more meaning. It's just story. And I'm like, but the story isn't bad and meaning isn't bad. So it's all good. But, um, it was just interesting. I'm like, I'm making meaning out of
Kyley: clinging, right? It's the clinging to it, right? Because it's the story. Okay. If the story is, I needed that crack in order to get to, because it's basically, [01:35:00] but what we're saying is I need hard to get to ease, right? That's what the crack to fluid transition is. I need hard to get to ease.
And, and. There's one story that is, Oh, what a gift. Hard gave me ease. What a beautiful thing. And then there's another story that is, I need hard in order to
Eva: right, right, right.
Kyley: continue. And so it's like, how tightly are we holding
Eva: yes, yes, because I didn't experience it as I need heart. It was more like, Oh, I saw how kind that was.
Kyley: Yeah.
Eva: Woo. Okay. I feel like we should wind this up because my head is literally going, wah, wah, wah. It's one of those
Kyley: the same. Same.
Eva: which are my favorite conversations, by the way. So. Um, what a joy, Kylie, like, like, thank you to everybody who continues to tune in and for our shenanigans. I think, [01:36:00] uh, we've got some magical shenanigans and it just delights me to be able to share it with other people in the world who feel connected to it.
Kyley: Tell us about your meaninglessness journey.
Eva: Yes, yes. We would love to hear
Kyley: what makes this feel scary and uncomfortable. What are you, what stories, Revealed themselves to you as traps while you were listening to this. Let us know.
Eva: Yes. Okay. Should we do joy? Joy.
Kyley: Oh, yeah. I
Eva: Oh no, we can't forget about Joy.
Kyley: know. I
Eva: Okay, let me actually think for a second. 'cause, um, yeah. Okay. I got mine.
Kyley: You want to go first? Mm.
Eva: Very much. In theme with our conversation today, I had experie, I had experienced this weekend where I, I experienced the no self condemnation thing that we were talking about, and it was only for, um, it wasn't abiding as in, it wasn't [01:37:00] forever. And this is something that I will, that I am continuously working on.
Um, I, there was just a moment of like, no self condemnation. And I really experienced that in that moment. I, you know, so I'm afraid that if there's no self condemnation, like I said, I'm afraid I'm going to be a sociopath or like, There's gonna be something wrong. But I experienced that when I, with no self condemnation, I am such an addition.
Like I got to be my whole fucking self and I brought it all to the table and there was nothing to hide and it was open. I just felt such a deep sense of self love that I was so myself, Kylie. And my being so myself is a gift to this world. that was such an amazing thing to experience. And I think it's so.
obvious maybe in a way, but to really experience it was such a gift. Like, [01:38:00] don't you see, like, don't you see I'm saying this to everybody in the world, you know, like that when we are fully ourselves, we are an addition. It's only when we, when we hide and apologize for who we are, that that actually becomes more, I think, problematic, separate that sense of separation.
Anyway, this is kind of a weird It's a very sort of mystical, metaphysical joy sharing, which I think is very in line with our theme today. But anyway, it was just really beautiful to have that experience. And that is what's informing me as we, as we start LoIP or our marketing LoIP and sharing LoIP. Like I, I feel like every time we have a course, you know, there's, you're, you're deeply in the work as you know, and as you've taught me.
And I am really looking forward to bring this to people who sign up for Loving Ourselves Into Power.
Kyley: Mm. I have
Eva: All right, Kylie. What's your joy for the week?
Kyley: lots of [01:39:00] Joys. And the one that I will share is, I've shared before how Desi and I have our reading dates, right? He, he goes to occupational therapy and about once a month afterwards, I will take him out. And I only do it once a month because we end up staying up till like, he went to bed at 10 o'clock at night on a Tuesday night.
I know. I
Eva: Oh, it sounds so fun though.
Kyley: And we, the place that we always went closed. Um, and so I've been on the hunt for like a new place. Um, because the whole vibe, so for listeners who don't know, basically Desi and I bring our books and we go and we like read our books or like play a little card game. And like hang out after his OT.
So like, you know, it's basically, it starts at his bedtime, basically. And then, um, and then the place we used to go close, it was very quiet. And so then we went to a couple of different restaurants, but it was too like sensory input loud. And it didn't, it didn't, it didn't, it didn't capture the vibe. And so I went to this, there's a, um, a brewery, like a, uh, uh, micro brewery in my town, [01:40:00] and we went there.
And it was the perfect vibe and we had so much. fun. We played cornhole. We didn't know. We call, we still call it our reading date, but like, there was no reading that happened. We played cornhole. They had one of those little mechanical, like claw games that I don't let my kids play because I'm like, those are designed to steal your money and you will be sad.
And then I'm just paying a dollar for you to cry. But this one had, um, had unlimited, like unlimited chances. And so he, like, he, like he, I gave him a 5 bill. He got five rubber duckies. He
Eva: God. That's awesome. See, that's how they should do it. By the way. That's like a metaphor for life. It's like why? Anyway, sorry, go on.
Kyley: Yeah. Actually, there was a very sweet, like everything's working because he was like, I want to get sick so I can have my sister and I can have an equal number.
And I was like, I'm all out of quarters. And then we like scrounged up to find four quarters and it was very fun. And anyways, and we were just like, it's just really fun to be [01:41:00] out and about and exploring life and like being, I've shared him before how much I love this age and how much fun I get to have with each of my kids.
And we were like cracking up playing horn hole and. And then at the end of the night, it was summer night, it felt very summery yesterday, and so all the windows were down and he got, he climbed in, I turn around and he's climbing into the car, like just through the window, like didn't open the door, just climbing in through the window.
And I'm like, and if you're a parent, you know that there are moments where your kids do silly things. And when you're stressed out, you're like, Oh, why are you doing that? And when you're not stressed out, it's just hilarious. And it was, that was a perfect example of like, I just heard cracking up and I was like, Dizzy, what are you doing?
And he goes, I can't stop laughing about this. He goes, that's our thing, mom.
Eva: Wait, what's your thing? Being silly?
Kyley: what I said. And I go, what do you mean? He goes, he goes, I do silly things. And you tell me not to, that's our thing, mom.
Eva: my [01:42:00] god, that is so sweet. But also,
Kyley: like,
Eva: mm.
Kyley: I left free. I was like, do you even know what that phrase needs? I just, I don't know something about that's our thing, mom. I just was like. Dying laughing. And then, and then we, oh, and also there was one moment where it was like, look, it's really late. I was, and I was like, just leveled with him.
I was like, I'm having fun. And so I'm keeping you out too late, but like, we should go like responsible mom brings you home, but like, this is really fun. And so it was like, but we have to go to them. It's like, I call it like wind down mode. So instead of playing a game, there was like a board game. Why don't we like sit, we can like read one of our books.
And I was, and I was like, do you want to, I basically gave him the choice. I was like, do you want to play a game? Do you want to. And he picked, he's like, I just want to read Winnie the Pooh.
Eva: mm hmm, mm hmm, yeah, sensitive little Denzi. Oh, he really is just a sensitive little mush ball. Oh, the sensitive little boy is really just, my nephew is the same way, and they just kind of break your heart in like a different kind of way. It's so sweet. But I [01:43:00] also just want to add like the look on your face, Kylie, like, and the smile, and like this, the brightening of your face as you're talking about this is just really sweet.
Kyley: Thank you. Yeah, it was just, it's fun and it's fun to. Oh, what is, Oh, okay. One more thing. I do this thing, you know, when you get straws, uh, and I have the paper on the straw, I'm sure you've all played the game where you like blow and the paper goes flying. Right. Um, Desi, I, I taught them that. And, um, Desi once did it at a restaurant and the waitress last laughed and then looked, it was like, I'm sorry.
I was like, Oh no, I taught them. It's fine. Cause he like hit me in the face with it. Anyway. I, So, the other thing he said last night that was so cute is he goes, I'm gonna teach that. He goes, he did it, he like blew the straw, then he goes, I'm gonna teach my kids that trick, and then it's gonna remind me of my mom.
Eva: Oh,
uh, when they're
Kyley: If that's my legacy, people, honestly, for someone who like, thinks all the time about the books and whatever bullshit [01:44:00] she wants to write, if that is my legacy,
Eva: yes, no, but also that's just so sweet. And I'm also like, uh, yeah, just this, this age when they're just still so sweet. All right, listeners, we love you so, so, so, so much. If this freewheeling, wild, chaotic, heartfelt conversation resonated with you, please share it with a friend. You think would also like it. Write us a review. The reviews are so helpful. What else, Kylie? Is that it?
Kyley: come join Villanera and Loip and all of our things, because it's just this on, you know, turbo speed.
Eva: We love you.