Meaninglessness seems cynical and full of despair — but is it? This week we discuss how it might *actually* be the key to joy and liberation.
Meaninglessness seems cynical and full of despair — but is it? This week we discuss how it might *actually* be the key to joy and liberation.
ALCHEMY - https://www.kyleycaldwell.com/alchemy
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Kyley's Instagram: @kyleycaldwell
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Eva and Kyley
[00:00:00]
Kyley: Hey, it's Kyley
Eva: and it's Eva.
Kyley: Welcome back to Hello Universe.
Eva: We got another good one for you guys lined up. We don't know how it's going to unfold, but we know it's going to be good.
Kyley: Also, you can't see us, but we showed up to this call in matching green, oversized, soft, fluffy sweaters. So, you know, that's
Eva: Not just green, like neon green. Like, what are the chances that both of us have
Kyley: Ridiculous sweaters. Yes. So we're bringing all the magic, you know, to, um, to today's call. And I have been, I have been [00:01:00] asking to have this conversation. I've been excited to have this conversation for a while now. And I think it's going to make us all uncomfortable and also be fun. And I can't wait, but before we get into it, um, I'm comfortable in a good way, I don't know.
Eva: Well, I don't know. It's going to make me, it's going to make me uncomfortable and all in all the different ways because
Kyley: This is me trying to like get everyone excited to like stick around and listen to the episode is by saying you're going to be uncomfortable. Learn marketing from me.
Eva: Oh my God, the woman who has 10 plus years of sales experience.
Kyley: Um, okay. Uh, before we jump in though, what do you have going on for like business work magic shit?
Eva: Oh, oh my goodness. Okay. Um, Loip, we are relaunching Loip. Loip is our program. We're loving ourselves into power. When I say we, I'm running it with my dear friend Federico, who has been on the show and every time he's on, it's amazing. Oh my goodness. I mean, I really just [00:02:00] believe that we are all come into this lifetime to learn how to love ourselves.
And I think the journey, I mean, I feel like it's a topic that, um, can get overplayed or, or maybe people don't exactly know what that really means. And I have found that there is no end to the depth of this journey of how much we can be connected to ourselves and trust ourselves and love ourselves. And it's huge.
It's like, I honestly, some of my biggest fucking medicine because I've struggled with self love, um, in all sorts of kind of ways. And so that's why this program is so near and dear to my heart and so personal.
Kyley: Can I jump in?
Eva: mm hmm.
Kyley: I took this program last time, Eva and Federico ran it, and like, run, do not walk if you sign up. Because, full transparency, I signed up because I was like, I love Eva and Fetty, this, I just want to be [00:03:00] with you, right? Like, I just want to be in your energy, like, please, yes, please, this sounds fun.
And it was just the most profound and beautiful shedding of suffering that I didn't even know I was carrying, right? I was kind of like, Oh, I'm pretty good with self love, but like, I'll do this. This sounds cool. And it was like, to your point of this, it's kind of infinite, endless opportunity to like, love ourselves deeper was just immediately this really potent experience.
And, and I just want to offer that I think everyone and their mother should take this course. And it really, Had a profound impact in a gentle way, in an intense way, in an incredibly compassionate way. And I still think about things that unearthed and moved. I still think about moments of like relief and love that came through the program.
And so if you are human, [00:04:00] sign up for the program, you will be very grateful that you did. Yes.
Eva: thank you so much for those kind words. It really means a lot to me because it was our first experience running it and so we didn't know how it was going to unfold and it was amazing to see. See how it unfolded so beautifully and a lot of it, folks, by the way, like love the self love thing actually happens in community.
So I think that's one thing I really love about the program that you were like held in this space with other people who, who. Get it. And then there's just like this alchemy and this transmutation that happens when we're releasing our shame and our stories of badness together. Because I think we need to be seen in all of those things.
And so, yeah, I think every human needs this course because of this idea of like, that's what we came here to learn. And also most of us, I think the majority of us, whether we know it or not, Struggle with it in some form and because I mean, I can go on and on about why, but also if you struggle with shame, [00:05:00] guilt, self condemnation, judgment, overthinking, like not feeling confident, feeling insecure, not feeling you have the ability to do things that you want to do.
Like all of those things. That's that. I think is where self love is like big, big, big medicine. So anyway, yes, if you're interested, there's a link in the bio. And if you have questions, um, you know, find me on Instagram, that was going to be an early bird price. So get on it. Yay. Thanks, Kyley. And what about you?
What would you like to share with our beautiful audience? Oh,
Kyley: tell you all about. Um, I won't, but, um, uh, Doors are, Alchemy is still enrolling. If you're ready to just like blow shit up about money and all of the places in which you feel tired, sick and tired of feeling under resourced, like come get in Alchemy, it's, it's, it's the best and it's going to be the best [00:06:00] and, uh, like get in here.
Um, and then the other thing that I have, if you, the other thing that I'm really excited about is, um, you want like a sample size of alchemy, right? If you've done my free workshops, if you know you like me, but you're a little bit afraid still, that's okay. Um, or like a little bit like in the in between.
I have made something that I'm so freaking excited about. And it's a combo of. So context, I don't always love doing single sessions. I don't promote them a lot. I don't do them a lot because they often feel like we've just cracked something open and now you're off on your own, right? They just feel under baked for me.
Most of the time, even if I enjoy very much the 90 minutes of holding the person as a whole, it feels like. It feels like I'm under, I feel under resourced in some way. Um, and so I have fixed the problem by creating a digestible short, uh, self [00:07:00] study program, that's like. Five short, like 15 minute audios or journeys.
So you can do it in the course of a week, coupled with a single session with me. So you can do the mini course before our session, or you can do it afterwards, or you can just go through the set course a whole bunch of times, because it's actually set up to be like a, Hey, do you feel blocked about something?
Walk through this journey and this process.
Eva: so good.
Kyley: And I'm so excited and like, I can feel that it's great because it's making me excited to do single sessions, whereas, again, often they're like a, Oh, it's been a while. Let's throw it out there. And now it's like, Oh, no, no, no, I can't wait. Let's go do a single session because then we're just going to like, rack something open.
And then you're going to have the tools on the runway to like, make something big and delicious out of it. Um, yeah. And then you can come sign up for Alchemy afterwards because you'll realize even the, like,
Eva: going to feel, you're going to feel the
Kyley: enough.
Eva: you know, you're just like going to feel the magic and be like, I need more because this is where this is where all the juices. I [00:08:00] love this offer. I think it's really cool. I love that it's accessible. Like you said, giving people a taste if they're, um, not yet ready to fully commit, but also like, they still want support.
Kyley: Yes.
Eva: They need, they want support around money, which again is another one of those topics that's like never, you know, like it's an infinite place of discovery and
Kyley: Yes. And, I mean, It's also not uncommon that someone's like, I want to say the problem. I don't have the money. It's like, great. We'll do this. We'll do this. Crack something open. Ideally, that creates some space for you to then resource you to take alchemy or, you know, pay your rent, whatever it is that it is that you are in need of in this moment.
So, um, anyway, I am super, super jazzed about, about all of those things. So come hang out with me.
Eva: Yeah. Yeah. It sounds fun. Honestly. Okay. So y'all
Kyley: Drum roll, please.
Eva: Yes. Kyley messaged me and she's like, can we have a conversation about meaninglessness? And I was like, no, [00:09:00] because I was like, because I love. Making meaning out of things like what we mean by meaninglessness. And actually, Kyley, I'll pass the baton to you in a second 'cause you can probably speak to this more, but for me, um, you know, I have a desire I think because it makes me feel safe.
And also it also comes from love sometimes. And it comes and it helps people desire for, but this desire to be like, when something happens, it me, I make, I make it mean something. Usually I wanna have a put a positive spin on it, right? Like. This idea of, oh, if this tragic, difficult thing happened, it was because I was meant to learn how to love myself, like ABC, whatever.
Right. And you're, I mean, there's definitely different, maybe we should unpack that a little bit later. Like all the different ways in which we make meaning out of things. But anyway, you're coming, then you come through and you're like, yeah, but what if that's what if it doesn't mean any of that? What if nothing means anything and there is no like positive spin on [00:10:00] things.
And this reminds me a little bit of a conversation we had about chaos before I think we did we record a whole episode on chaos. I think, yeah, you guys can go back and listen to that where I'm just like, it's all out of control. Right. Which, by the way, I just want to preface by saying, I also know is the truth.
Like, of course, there's no meaning, of course, like, of course, there's no, you know, like, yes and no, like, I can see both. And so I share all that just to say, like, this conversation, that's why it makes me uncomfortable is because I think it challenges something deep within me that I also know to be true.
Kyley: Yeah. Oh, I love, I love everything you're saying. I mean, uh, I know I, I bring this topic because it's a place that I keep finding really tremendous and surprising relief and the relief that's coming when the energy of what I'm meaninglessness, which I will unpack a little bit more about, you know, comes [00:11:00] in the relief that it brings surprises me.
Is, is consistently really monumental and, and is not what I previously had made meaninglessness to mean. Right. So, um, and so I wanted to, I wanted to talk about it on the podcast in large part because I want support integrating. Like, I can feel that this is, that this is beautiful and nourishing if I let it in. It is also uncomfortable for the, some of the reasons that you started to lay out and so I basically was like, well, what do I do with these sorts of things? I bring them to Eva and she,
Eva: them together. I love it.
Kyley: So,
Eva: And you dear audience are here to just, you know, join the ride and watch us, like, you know, figure it out,
Kyley: yeah, and I think one of the things that we, we started We, we've, we've touched on this topic a little bit before. I actually think it's interesting because I just came back from Paris for two weeks, [00:12:00] which was amazing. And last year I went to Italy for two weeks and I came back from Italy and I, I don't know if you remember, but I had this actually like insane mystical experiences with the, which I think we recorded a, an episode about where the ruins, these ancient ruins in Italy were like, nothing means anything.
And it was super, super intense. And so listeners, apparently we're making a, apparently Kyley goes to Europe and comes back and is like, Hey guys, everything's new. I
Eva: Yeah, so that's what I was gonna ask you. I do remember that, that you had a profound experience of meaninglessness that was liberating by the way. It's like
Kyley: mean, that experience was terrifying.
Eva: Oh, was it?
Kyley: yes, I mean, go back and listen to the whole episode, but it was both. It was like, it was like a mushroom trip, right? It was like the kind of experience that was like, you're teetering on the edge of like, there's freedom here. And also, Oh, whoa, whoa, whoa. Whoa, there's a lot.
It keeps going,
Eva: Yes. Oh my God. Yeah. Sorry. That's that is. [00:13:00] When you speak to that, I feel like that is the journey of self realization in someone. So that's like a profound thing where you realize that there are, yeah, there are no boundaries. There are no limits. Everything that you thought was, isn't. And it's, it's liberating, yes, but terrifying because in some ways it's letting go of everything that we know.
Totally. Yeah.
Kyley: and like, there's these moments, I think, where you like tiptoe up to the edge of the void and you're like, I've gone far enough for today. Thank you very much. Right. So, so one of the big things around, around, so when I'm saying meaninglessness, what do I mean? I'm, which is in and of itself ironic, like the whole construct of like, let's talk about meaninglessness is interesting, right?
But we make. Story and meaning out of every single thing that happens to us. We narrate and. think arguably by extension [00:14:00] trap our experiences in some element of control. We are constantly attempting to like control our experiences or control how we understand or move through what happens to us by making meaning.
Like story is, I talk to you about this all the time, the way story is this place in which we're acting out control or seeking to. Um, and I often talk about that in terms of like, Oh, the story. The story versus experience, right? This is a like a reoccurring thing in my teaching is that there's the story that you have about what it what has happened or what is happening and underneath that your body and your heart have an experience they want you to be in.
And when we're in story, which is the he said, she said, we're not actually in the experience, which is in our heart and our body.
Eva: Mm hmm. We are in our mind. Would you say we're not in our hearts, our bodies were in our minds or so?
Kyley: yeah, yeah, because you could say that. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Um, and I think [00:15:00] if you, if you take that, which I think a lot of people can get behind right there, but if you take that, if that is true, and then you like zoom that out, there's a way that we are constantly narrating and making meaning out of every single thing that we do and therefore trapped into trying to make things make sense.
Maybe they don't fucking make sense.
Eva: Mm hmm.
Kyley: And I'm trapped into creating, like, forcing ourselves to create a narrative where if this happens, then that has to happen, or in order to arrive at this place, I have to be this person. There's this way that we are constantly, like, disallowing things. I'm watching how this feels really hard to, like, put into words because of our need to make meaning.
Maybe this will make more sense if I give an example, but, um,[00:16:00]
Eva: But I think you're doing a great job, by the way. I'm right there with you.
Kyley: great, great, great. But I think one of the big things that we often talk about is like, oh, and this is, we actually talk about on the show Emily McDowell, you made a comment that was like, oh, meaninglessness can be cynical or it can be liberating.
And I dunno if it was on the show or after the show. It was after the show
Eva: the show. Yeah.
Kyley: that I was like. Meaninglessness is only cynical if that's the meaning that we make about meaninglessness.
Eva: Okay. Wait, hold on. Let me think about this. Meaninglessness is only cynical. That's the meaning that we make. And I think, yes. Okay. So another way of saying that is meaningless is only cynical. Cause when I think about it, okay, oh my God, this is going to get, all right, this is,
Kyley: Buckle up, everybody!
Eva: might get a little swirly guys. What, okay. Let's just say, for example, I hear about meaninglessness and I have a reaction to it, how I respond, meaning what action, like physical action and how I live, move through the world based on this idea of [00:17:00] meaninglessness that I think is kind of what determines, how it landed for me, right? So if I'm experiencing meaninglessness and it doesn't, let's just say, I don't even have like a story.
I'm just like, okay, meaninglessness. Then I, and then I feel open and my body's open and I'm like moving through the world. I'm not attached to anything and I'm like alive. And that's like really awesome. But what if then I experienced meaninglessness and again, maybe there are no words to it, but then my reaction is actually more like it's meaningless.
Like I feel a sense of meaningless that actually makes me like. I mean, this is really dark, but maybe suicidal or something, because I'm like, what is the fucking point? So, there's two different extremes here that we can go in. But what causes those, what determines the differentiation in how someone responds?
Is that story? I think that's what I'm trying to understand. Is that, is that what you're saying story is? That, that, or
Kyley: yeah, because I think this idea of like, I think this idea of like, well, what's the fucking [00:18:00] point? Which can cause the kind of cynical, like, well, screw everybody, because what's the point? Or a kind of like, isolation and despair. I would offer that that's not true. Like, that's not actually meaninglessness. That's the, that's, that's, that's us.
Eva: Interpreting?
Kyley: That's us needing meaning, right? That's us like, that's, that's us in relationship to the absence of meaning or the perceived absence of meaning, meaning, okay,
Eva: Oh, I see. No, I think I understand what you're saying. So, you're saying if there was no story about it. It wouldn't affect you one way or the other.
Kyley: that's freedom, right? Freedom, if we don't have our stories, then we're free, but your story could be, what's the point? I hate everybody. But then that's not actually meaninglessness. That's the story of
Eva: On, on top of it. Yes. Okay. So this, okay. I'm, I'm, I'm picking up where you're putting down [00:19:00] and oh my God, this is like huge then like now I'm understanding the scope of like what this really means. And just to put it into like, like some Buddhist perspective, because I think, you know, that's some of my, and just background and how I understand things.
This is, I think, why this is why I think what some of the great stages of our, you know, of all time are talking about in terms of like an And, and in Buddhism, this idea of being in, being the observer, like you just, you're just, and then that's what also happens to me when I spend long moments in meditation where I can see the story in my mind and it's all unfolding and there's, and sometimes it's like a really great dramatic, like, you know, tell a novella story and it's like so juicy and I get hooked in, but, but when I'm not in story, what that really, my experience of that is, is like, I'm, I'm not my thoughts, but I'm the awareness beyond my thoughts and I'm just watching everything.
I'm just the observer of this, [00:20:00] of the story, but there is literally no meaning. It's not good. It's not bad. I'm not attached. I'm not avoidant. It's just like pure. awareness, pure awareness. And so as I'm really excited about this, because I think,
Kyley: Oh, I love that. We got you to excitement in like 15 minutes.
Eva: I know. I thought I was going to be like, well, by the way, no, no, no, no, let's not get ahead of ourselves. I get to easily go. I could easily go back into like, no, but I love meaning. But what is exciting to me is I think I'm better understanding what you're talking about. And I think we're touching on like meaninglessness is another pathway or way to explain or.
what
a form of enlightenment is, which is to be pure awareness.
Kyley: Yes. Yeah. Which, and the example that you're talking about there, your stories and your thoughts, they're not wrong. They just, like you're pointing out, they're just kind [00:21:00] of not real, right? They're just like, not by not really. I mean, they're like, kind of like. Immaterial are you when you're when you're when you're in the place of a of a of awareness or observance.
There's just this distance and you can see that the thoughts are just like. Dandelion fluff or like clouds floating by
Eva: Well, I
Kyley: versus. Okay,
Eva: No, go ahead. Go ahead. Versus
Kyley: I don't know where I was going to go,
Eva: Okay. Well, I was going to say, yeah, you're right. There is no, they're not right or wrong and also right and wrong is just another story that, that hooks us back into meaning and story,
what I heard you say was you were talking about, like, it creates a sense of separation when there is meaning. And I think that's exactly it. Because actually, in reality, There is no separation. Like, you were saying your thoughts aren't right or wrong, but also they're not, I would actually say they're not true
Kyley: That's maybe better. They're not real. They're not true.
Eva: they're just not, it's true that they're not true because like, there's, I don't know how to, I don't [00:22:00] know how else to explain that besides that, but like
not, you know,
Kyley: They're meaningless. Your thoughts are meaningless. They, right, they don't mean anything. They're just the random fucking chatter. Chatter. You know, it's the
Eva: is actually a separation from like us from beingness, from being, from beingness, which is another parallel experience word for awareness. For me. For me. Yes.
Kyley: yes, yes, yes. And, and I'm like all hopped up on this. And also this is like hard and I'm bringing this in my excitement. I'm, I, I, this is also like a place I want to spend more time. This is not a place that I have camped out in, you know? Um, but I think, so I keep having these experiences. Okay, so listeners might know, and we keep promising GEP is going to come, but, you know, my business partner and former best friend very dramatically and [00:23:00] suddenly exited the business, exited the friendship, didn't stop talking to me without really giving me any fucking meaning, right?
Eva: Mm hmm.
Kyley: it's been rough, um, and And one of the, and also it's been incredible and blah, blah, blah. We'll do the whole episode on, but one of the things, one of the places where I kept like slamming into things and like getting caught was this doesn't make sense. Like I just kept watching how much, like none of it, like trying to make it make sense was making me feel completely insane and really like hooked in and, and hooked in in a way that was like, You know, there's been lots of moments of being really, really sad, and that being liberating.
There's been lots of moments of being really fucking pissed, and that being liberating. And then there have been these moments where it's like, I can't do either, I'm just buffering in story. And one of the things I have consistently seen in that, is that those are the places where I'm trying to make it make sense.
Eva: [00:24:00] Mm
Kyley: And I'm trying to, like, I'm trying to craft the, craft the script. Of what happened, which typically has involved either making me the villain or her the villain, right? Either making me the victim or her the victim, right? Somehow, like, assigning roles, scripting, and creating kind of this, like, tidy little story of A plus B equals C.
And I couldn't do it it wasn't true.
Eva: Yeah.
Kyley: And, and I could, I had these moments where I could see like, Oh, I could put each one of us, I could put her in that box and I could put me in this box. And that could be my story that I used to kind of lay this to rep quote, unquote, lay it to rest and keep us in these like cute little boxes packed in the back of the closet and walk forward.
But it would still be packed up in baggage because I would have, I would have used meaning to like tidy up what had happened as opposed to allow experience to move me through [00:25:00] something. And so real tremendous amount of relief in this experience has happened again and again around it doesn't, there is nothing that it doesn't, it doesn't, it doesn't make sense.
That's why it doesn't make sense because it doesn't fucking make sense. And, and your attempts to make it make sense is because you, for me, it's like, I want the meaning of, well, this is my identity, right? My identity is always victim or my identity is always villain, right? And, uh, and I use those terms loosely, but, um, my identity is always the one who's left.
My identity is always the one who's too much. My identity, whatever it is, all of those are meanings that I have, right? My identity is always the one who perseveres, right? All of those are meanings. That I grasp onto and they're actually the fucking source of my suffering
Eva: Mm hmm.
Kyley: and so to your point of like trying to put a positive spin on it or a negative spin on it like what I started to see is like there's [00:26:00] less It's definitely better to make, if we're doing meaning making, it definitely helps us more to do positive spin than negative spin.
And also, that's still not actually the liberation that I think we want. And that whenever I have allowed myself to like fall into the place of like, it just doesn't, maybe it just doesn't need to make any fucking sense at all. we, the, the liberation that I have found in this particular experience has come from surrendering the need for meaning.
And just letting the experience move through me and letting the experience move me and almost like the, like a, like a wave that picks you up and just like carries you gently versus the meaning making is me like scrambling against the current and, and then the wave just deposits me somewhere. And, and then I feel free.
And, um, And there's a kind of wisdom that keeps showing up, right? We could talk about, like, meaning versus wisdom might be [00:27:00] an interesting place to go, but the relief has come not from trying to make a tidy story of, like, how I was hurt, and what happened, and what I could have done, or she should have done, or fill in the fucking blank.
The relief has come from, like, surrendering meaning.
Eva: Yep, I have one. Okay, I love this. So you're painting a picture that I think I can really relate to. And I actually think you're speaking to something very universal, um, that happens when we are in great suffering. So, meaning, like, when someone, okay, for me, the immediate example that came up was war, and so, like, everything that's going on in Palestine, and, you know, all the things, and, and I can get so much in despair, because I'm just like, I don't understand, like, why is the world like this?
Why the fuck is this happening? It's, it's war. It's like, there's just these big things in life that you're just like, I don't understand. This [00:28:00] doesn't make any fucking sense. Like, how are things this bad? Like scary and awful and sad and heartbreaking and like children are dying and like and it doesn't fucking make any sense Like, you know, it's just and it's infuriating and then or you know anything I think tragedy like especially tragedy that strikes like out of the blue when people are like and it's totally unexpected and you're just Like wait, wait, wait, I don't understand.
Why how is this happening? Why is this happening? Why did I get so sick? Why did this person get cancer? Why did I get so sick? Why did I have all these things and And what you're what you're pointing to is What happens when we are desperate for meaning and there is none, like we can't find it because sometimes, I don't know if it's like a chaos thing, but it's more of just like, life is just life, like life is life and, and, and to think that we can explain it is incredibly, I don't want to say arrogant, because that sounds harsh, but it's just [00:29:00] silly.
It's silly. We don't know. We have no fucking clue. We don't even know what we're spinning and we're spinning on this fucking globe, out in this universe. You know, like, no, none, none of this. We don't know we that is the truth of our reality. Just that we don't know. Mm-Hmm?
Kyley: we don't know and, and I think I've been sitting with how I think why is actually a fundamentally unkind question because what I watched in, you know, my grief is that when I was asking why, what I was trying to do was justifying whose pain mattered because if the why was. Something I had done well then she was right and I was wrong and she deserved and so, and so.
She, so I deserved the pain and I deserved to, I, I I deserved this kind of punishment. That's the logic of it. Right? Quote unquote punishment. And, but if, if the why is that she was wrong, then my suffering is valid and her actions are invalid. I was trying to like. Basically [00:30:00] decide who got to be right and decide who it's back to this roomy quote that I keep talking about, right?
Of like, there is a field beyond right and wrong. I'll meet you there. Um, and, and, and what I was trying to do was pick who got, pick who mattered, essentially. and, and I, I think, I guess what I'm trying to offer is like, so this is an extreme example, and I think your point of war is another perfect, why, why are, why are we letting children fucking die?
It does not make sense. And it should not make sense. It does not make sense, right? And, um, and I think the, the why. Just is it to your point earlier? It's just separation. It's just separating us from the, from, from our experience, from our hearts, from the, from, from the actual truth, right? Why isn't truth?
The experience is truth. The automatic heartbreak of what we're letting happen in Gaza. That's true. The why is entirely irrelevant,[00:31:00]
Eva: Yes, the why for me, I can speak to is me trying to have control and also like through understanding, which I want to talk more about, but okay, but control through understanding. And also it is a buffering being like, wait, wait, like if I get this, if I understand, if I can like make sense of this, then, then.
I can like process my feelings or like, then something, then something else. But the, but the buffering that you've spoken to is like actually no, the, the why is just, is a, is. Almost, I don't know if it's, if it's unconscious or whatever, but there is a way in which it's a buffering to just, doesn't matter fucking why, just feel the feelings, you know, like just to go, just to go there.
And I feel like I can see how the why is, yeah, just preventing me in some weird sneaky kind of way to be like, okay, then you don't have to go there.
Kyley: and also I think it's like, I think you're right. That is control. And I think [00:32:00] it's also the control of like, well, if I understand the why, then I can keep it from happening again.
Eva: Uh huh.
Kyley: Right. Whatever, whatever hurt you're experiencing. It's like, if I can understand why, then I can just. Fix it and then it won't happen again,
Eva: I know what to do. For me, my favorite question is like, wait, what do I do? What do I do? I mean, I'm in doing mode rather than being mode, you know, it's about, it's a valid question. Sometimes it's like, wait, what action do I take? But that is, that is like when we've had various conversations about this too, in terms of like our relationship to, um, the painfulness of, of, of feeling like the answers come in productivity and doing rather when it's like, no, no, no.
Like it's not about doing, it's about being first and then from that place wise action may arise, but it's Yeah. Always gonna be in the beingness. Mm-Hmm.
Kyley: So I just everyone I just like leaned in I got all excited because I think Probably everyone can get on board to some extent with the like meaninglessness of like shit just happens [00:33:00] and it hurts and like you got To just be in it. I want to push the envelope Because I think that everything, I think there is liberation in letting everything be meaningless.
And I am, I am physically uncomfortable as I am saying that. And also, I don't think this is a tool just for hard times. So for example, I'm going to use a business example. We make meaning out of money or clients or success, right? We say, okay, clients will mean that fill in the fucking blank, right? And then We keep that shit out because we think we're not that thing that we've made the meaning of, right?
True love will arrive in my life. True love will mean that I am worthy of love. That's our like, you know, maybe little story. I don't yet believe I am worthy of love. Therefore, I can't have true love yet. If true love doesn't mean True love is meaningless. Then you don't have to stop it. You can have it right [00:34:00] now.
Eva: Oh my god, yes! I love this conversation so much because, ah, I don't even have the, I don't think I have the depth of brain, brain capacity or wisdom to speak to this very clearly, so apologies if this is like so choppy, but like that, when you say that again, all I can think, what I just feel is a sense of separation.
The theme of separation yet again comes up. It's this idea of, it's actually like a thought that separates us from what already is. And, and it's so, the water that we're, like, swimming in, it's just totally normal that we don't even know that we are doing it. And I might just need to take a long pause to, like, process this= my mind is literally just like doing record skips right now because I am, I think what you're saying is so important, but all I can sum it up as is like, yeah, having a story blocks you from having what [00:35:00] you want. It's really that simple.
Kyley: Even when, even when it's a, even when it's an empowering story, I mean, we can also make the argument that this right here, what we're doing is its own story, but even
Eva: yeah. So that's, that's where then it goes like really, really trippy because it's all, it's all a story. Meaning. Oh, my God. It's all a story. Um, and I feel like it's all a story.
I think in reality, I think as humans, we can only like, we have like the, what do you call it? The software where like we operate on story. But I think consciousness is something completely different. And I think what you're speaking to is touching into a little bit of the experience of being conscious, like consciousness itself.
Like there. And, and, and like you were saying, having this conversation in itself is ironic [00:36:00] because just even through language, like language is the thing that creates stories. So just by talking about it, we are in story, which is okay. Like it's not good, bad, right or wrong. Because I think what we're touching into cannot be described with words.
Wait,
Kyley: Yes. And, and I think the, the, the sneaky, but I think really kind of potentially exciting thing and uncomfortable thing is that even our quote unquote positive spin stories. are still separation, right? And I had this really profound experience the other night, um, where I had been watching like this place, this, this place in my body that it's in my heart wasn't my heart that I'd known for a long time that I'd felt it. This place in my body that was really afraid of, of, of allowing in the things that I [00:37:00] want, whether they were more clients or closer friendship or whatever the thing was, like the thing, it didn't actually matter what the thing was.
I would feel into my desire. This is a practice I do sometimes. I think I've maybe shared in the podcast. It's a really great practice. Much better than a lot of meditation shit that doesn't work is to imagine what you want and then What then sit in a place in your body sit in your body's response now You don't don't force yourself to feel good about it.
That's Useless. I mean go to the place watch what's actually happening Think about what you want and then watch what your body actually does in response and sit in that I,
Eva: wait, hold on, pause before I move you forward. Because I'm like, I'm having a reaction because I'm like, this is so crazy. This happens sometimes with you. I will have like experienced something big or like. Or like, you know, do ayahuasca or something and they'll have this big realization and then like I'll talk to you a couple days and you'll have had, you'll be saying something exactly
Kyley: I love
Eva: [00:38:00] parallel to that.
Okay, wait, but you're saying, for example, watch what happens in your body, meaning let's say I want like five million dollars. Do you mean notice the resistance that comes up, the stories that come up or the feelings in your body? Like what are you noticing?
Kyley: Okay. So pick a desire that feels, that feels tangible, right? So if 5 million is actually like, so it's like that, if that feels like asking for a flying unicorn, like that doesn't work. It has to be something that you have some sense of like is, is, is real, right. And is, is a real thing that you could let into your life.
Um, and then you just imagine like You know, okay, I, I, I'm creating 4, 000 this week or 4 this week, or, you know, whatever, sit quietly and then just watch your body's response to, you know, if you don't have a strong relationship to your body. Come join alchemy. I have [00:39:00] lots of practices. You can learn how to do this, but, um, watch, just watch your body's response.
Like imagine. Okay. So this is what I would, what I would see was imagining anything that I wanted. It didn't matter what the thing was. And then I would drop into my body and I would feel this place in my heart where immediately upon the desire being acknowledged, my heart started to constrict. I just felt tight in my heart.
I would want something. I would admit to myself that I want something in my heart would go.
Eva: Yes. Okay. So, so I'm just gonna throw my example in that so that you can give me some free coaching. It's like, I want 20 people to sign up for LOIP for Loving Ourselves Into Power, right? And immediately in my body, it's a tightness in my belly, but you're just saying body, just body. You don't want story to
Kyley: Right now I just want to give a story's meaning. We don't care.
Eva: Yeah, okay. So it's just like a tightness in my body or in my, in my, in my
Kyley: so just sit in that tightness.
Eva: I, you know, okay. Like sit with it.
Kyley: Yeah. Sink [00:40:00] into the belly and just be with the experience. If narrating it is useful, that's available. And not just in the belly existing with your body's response to what you want.
Eva: Okay. That was really interesting for
Kyley: Yeah. What happened?
\ So immediately there was a relief, which is often my experience when I'm. just being present with what's showing up
Kyley: Mm-Hmm.
Eva: There was [00:41:00] like a, there was a tightness in my belly and then it was like a release, a relaxing.
And then I could see story coming up, really being like, okay, there was a sense of story. There was a story of like, and it came through as, it wasn't a story, but it was me wanting to make a story. It's like, wait, great. What do I do with this? What do I do with this? Like a little bit of like relaxation that's coming in.
Like I wanted to do something with it. And then underneath that though, A knowing,
Kyley: Mm-Hmm.
Eva: felt to me a little bit more like wisdom, which what you, which is like, uh, differentiation you brought up a second ago, maybe we can explore that later. But the wisdom was like, it wasn't even words, but it was a sense of like, If I had to put it into words, it was sense of just like safety, trust. I got you.
Kyley: Okay. I love this. There's a part of me that feels like you skipped over the icky part. And [00:42:00] I, if we were like doing a full coaching session, I would be like, but what about the part that felt uncomfortable? Right. And I, and I say that specifically because I think you are really well resourced to like, uh, to like fly through anything, right.
Like, or soar or float or be with any and all things that can show up. I think you have a really, really tremendous ability to like be in the presence of love with anything and everything that happened. And, and I, and I, I think there's something interesting about like, so it's like, I got this image of like roots that just go really, really, really deep.
And the roots are so deep that it's like, no matter what happens, I know I'm going to be okay because I know that I am consciousness itself. And then I'm also getting the image of like, okay, but the tree also grows, gets to grow up and, and the, and the, and the thrust of your desire. And your needs and your wants, like that's also, that's also the tree growing up and [00:43:00] out and spreading its branches wide.
And so love that you have a relief and a wisdom and a trust. And for you in particular, I would actually want to like push you into that space where it felt uncomfortable. Because to me that feels like the tree that grows up and out.
Eva: Mm hmm.
Kyley: that make sense?
Eva: Oh, it makes so much sense and it's actually so beautiful. And, uh, I I'm gonna I'm just really gonna write this because I I feel like there's something here for me. So apologies, listeners, you're just going to have to come along with me for the ride, but the uncomfortableness is, I think you're speaking to something really important though.
Like, was there like, yes, I think I have this ability to sit with things and et cetera, but I also wonder, like, was there a skipping over that I wasn't aware of, but I would say like, if there was a discomfort, it was a sense of like,
I think maybe that's why that wisdom came in so quickly. And I don't know if that was meaning, but there was a story, there was a story of like the, the, the, the, the tightness in the belly was [00:44:00] like, Oh, you can't have what you want. And therefore you're not safe
Kyley: hmm. Mm
Eva: and that's why and then immediate, but it was like so immediate.
I don't know if that was like a wisdom coming through or if that was my need to just like a nerd, a knee jerk reaction to
Kyley: Mm hmm. Mm
Eva: me comfort your,
Kyley: hmm. Mm
Eva: but, but it was like, those two things were happening kind of simultaneously. He's like, okay, this is all about safety. Of course. Cause for me so much is about safety.
And then there was just a voice that was just like, you're good girl.
Kyley: Yes. Okay. So, we've gone off the rails, everybody, but
Eva: we've gone off the rails, sorry. But this is so, but this is
Kyley: Do we need to h Do we need to say sorry? I'm not sorry. I'm
Eva: Okay. Well, I also just hope that if you're listening that you can like do this practice because I'm finding it to be so invaluable. Like, like take this y'all and run with it because this is awesome.
Kyley: Yeah, that's why I'm not sorry, right? It's because like, this is a, this is a, this is a real time. Here's a tool you can put in your tool chest. And [00:45:00] because what I think is, I love that. So for you, there was, I'm almost seeing it as like layers of the earth, right? There's the like buffering in story. Then there's the actually sinking down into experience of there's relief.
Then there's, there's this like thin layer of, yeah. Um, look, I can't have what I want. And then under that is just like this infinite well of your consciousness itself, your love, your source, your baby girl, you're fine. And so what I think is, and so in some ways I don't think that was, I don't like, it's not, it's not, it's not gaslighting cause it's not a skip.
It's not a like rejection of, but it's like a quick pass through. And I think what could be a really potentially delicious practice is. Taking that wisdom and bringing it into that thin little crust of fear and sitting like really intentionally being in the discomfort, like cultivating a moment [00:46:00] of asking the discomfort to come forward, right?
Like this is your moment to shine, baby,
Eva: hmm. Mm hmm. Okay.
Kyley: but bringing the wisdom that's underneath it. That that's what's cradling the discomfort. So you're going, it's like, I'm almost seeing this image of like a basin and you are sitting with the, like, you're bringing, inviting in the discomfort. And then you're just sitting with the presence of love with the discomfort.
And then just watching it because, and why I think this is important is because what happens is that the discomfort actually dissolves. It's just when we witness because of all these, these, these are, these are just muscle memories of trauma, right? These are just old stories that we are not, that's not safe to have what we want and all of our trauma doesn't happen because of the traumatic event.
It happens because Like trauma doesn't get trapped because of the traumatic event, it gets trapped because we aren't witnessed, [00:47:00] right? When we like sit, like we just like invite in the discomfort instead of trying to make ourselves feel better, which isn't what you're trying to do, but the, that crust, it just dissolves.
I could, I'm kind of cheering up because. Because I, I just think this works every fucking time.
Eva: Yes. Yes. But I think, yes, and I think this is like the whole jam, right? Like, but, but I think that, I think what you're speaking to is so beautiful and I'm also, yeah, I'm just coming to say what I want to say, which is I feel like that's what I experienced, which is that like, but it happened so quickly, but that's what I mean when I say like, it was the discomfort of tightness and then the moment I gave it space, it dissolved.
Mm hmm. Like that's, that's like, so is that what you're speaking to? And then,
Kyley: So, okay. If you, to do it again, here's a great way to do it again. Like imagine 20 people on the web right [00:48:00] now.
Eva: yeah, I mean, there's like a sense of excitement. There's like a, there's like, um, joy. There's,
I don't know how to explain it. Yeah. Just not as much of a story of like, can't, can't. It's like, love is really what I'm feeling.
Kyley: So that's it. That's the whole, that's it. That's your homework assignment.
Eva: Right. Okay. So, so I could just feel like my type A ness being like, did I get it right? Did I get it right? Did I do it right? Because I think that was my, you know how you were talking about there were layers.
Kyley: Yeah.
Eva: And I feel like the first layer was already it, which was like, I felt the tightness, and then I was with it, and then there was like all this compassion, and then it dissolved.
And that's, but it just happened so quickly, because I think, I think, yes, and also because this is my practice, you know what I mean, and so it happens, yeah, it can happen really fast.
Kyley: It can happen really fast. And also like what's beautiful about this practice. I love this. It ran it up, which is like, it feels like totally left field, but what's really great was practice [00:49:00] is that you do it in an hour and it might be different. Right. Because we have, we have, there are so many layers.
Eva: Oh, I have no doubt that, like, this isn't, like, I could do this. Throughout my whole launch of LoIP, and every day it'll be useful in a new way, because
Kyley: because it's, because
Eva: to have some story, yeah,
Kyley: because it's, because it's not, because what it's giving you is like the weather. It's like you check the weather, right? It's like, how does my, does my body feel safe? And open to the thing that I want today, right now, or does my body need some compassion or holding, like, is my body scared?
Is my body angry? Is my body anxious? Like, Um, and I guess the way this relates to the meaning making in the story stuff is that story keeps us out of any of that and creates this thing of like, like, it's funny because before we were recording, we're like, oh, we still have to do our manifestation episode. And then here we are surprised kind of doing it.
But it's like, story. [00:50:00] Keeps us in this place of, well, I just have to think properly, or I have to make myself feel properly, or I have to, I have to do something, right? I have to be the person that gets, no, just be exactly who you are, and your heart and your body will tell you. Um, anyway, I'm getting all fired up.
Because I, I get fired up because I'm mad, because I just think there's a lot of, um, yeah, that causes so much, that like adds to the already existing pain and suffering.
Eva: course, I mean, that's what so much of this podcast is about, it's like, we're annoyed because it's all, it's, it's, yes, okay, okay, but hold on, let's, let's, because we only have a few minutes left and maybe we'll have to have a part two of this conversation, I don't know, but, um, but where we kind of left off before we totally went on that sort of mini coaching.
Uh, segment is like story blocks us from having what it is that we really want. Oh, right. Because you were talking about how story like, yes, I'm sure we can all understand how painful it is to try [00:51:00] and find meaning when tragedy strikes. And I just want to speak to that really quick as a summary. Basically, what I was hearing you say with like you and you know, your, your, your friend and, and all this stuff is like, it's painful when there's no answer.
That's when it's really fucking painful, is that, and you will drive yourself up a fucking wall if you keep asking why, why, why, why, why, like, why did this happen to me? That, that's, that's a really painful story, that victim story, like, why me? That's, like, I have a lot of compassion for that, but, but also, like, when you see that story and yourself notice, it's painful.
Why, why? You know, like maybe you don't do that to yourself anymore, because there might not actually be a why. And, and that's when it's actually more, what I'm hearing you say is like, it's more compassionate and kind, and it's what you're talking about, the liberation that you experienced when you were like, oh, I stopped trying.
Like I let myself off the fucking hook. I don't need to know why it doesn't matter. Like, it's not even that, it doesn't matter, but maybe there's no reason. Whatever. It's, it's a trap.
Kyley: but it's true. The why doesn't matter because I was only using the why to [00:52:00] try to justify. Well, if I, if I have, if the story lines up, then my feelings are justified. Right. And, and, uh, or that I'm vindicated or that basically the story was giving me an identity that then created a kind of safety for me.
That was all wrapped up in like, that was all just illusion. And underneath it was like, Hey, I had, and then we still have, like, Big fucking feelings about what has happened. Um,
Eva: Yeah.
I had this moment, this is where I started to say the heart constriction. I had this moment. Just the other day, actually, where I have, I've been watching this constriction that I was talking, that I was talking about in my heart for a long time, where I would want something, and I would just watch the place in my body where I wouldn't let it in, right?
Kyley: Or would, would buffer how much of it I would let in, right? This, it was a, it's a control mechanism. It's a, like, the valve on and off switch. [00:53:00] was. Really falling deep into it the other night and the place that I came to, which is really what inspired me to come to like, can we, can we do a meaningless episode?
So I was talking about this heart constriction experience right where I have been for a lot for a while and I had this practice of watching. I want something and I feel my heart at various other places in my body constricting in response and, um, and it's an on off switch, right?
It's a way of limiting what we allow it. Because the allowing doesn't feel safe, right? It's the other important thing. Whatever it is that we want, if we don't have it, it's because it doesn't feel safe to have it. So I was falling really deep into that the other night. And I came to the place of watching how sort of part of my journey was like, what is this?
What am I trying to protect here? And I could feel that like this constriction is a protection of protective energy. What is it that I'm trying to protect? And the place that I landed is This aspect of me that I believe to just, I've been [00:54:00] calling it original sin, right? The part of me that I just believed was like, bad, wrong, there's like real Irish Catholic ancestry that's got to roll on in here.
It was like, this is part of you that's rotten at the core, and specifically, if and when people find out, you'll be punished. So there's lots of ways that our unlovability can show up, but what I was like, what, what that heart protection that like, we can't let things in was because Russian roulette style.
You're just increasing the odds that you will be, that you will be discovered that you're in love. You're rotten at the core. Original sin will be discovered and then you'll be punished. For that, and I don't want to be punished. So the heart was constricting and trying to like, minimize what comes in and I just kept sinking down essentially into the place where I felt like I was underneath looking up at this infrastructure.
And what I saw was the only reason that exists is because I'm making meaning. Out of the things that have happened to me, I have been hurt many times. I'm [00:55:00] human. I've been hurt many, many, many times. And my psyche and trying to make meaning out of it has created this story. Well, like, you know, we must be rotten at the core and therefore we get punished.
But, and so I, I could see, like, I could do all, I could heal that story, right? I could do healing of like, you're not unlovable. I could do all that. I've done that a million times. So what like blew my mind was that I sunk down to the place where I was like, the shortcut. Is that it doesn't mean anything, but the things that happen to you don't mean anything.
And this notion that you're rotten at the core is entirely like smoke. And I literally could see in my mind's eye, like putting my hand through something and watching it just dissolve. Like you thought this was, you thought this was a thing. And it's actually entirely an illusion that has been crafted out of meaning. And if you don't need meaning, you don't need original sin, and if you don't need original sin, you don't need a fucking redemption arc, and you don't need to keep anything out, you can [00:56:00] just have it all now.
Eva: Oh my God. Okay. I'm grabbing my head people because this is another moment where I was just having a similar experience and conversation in my life. And then now you're bringing it up. I've had a similar experience. Like, I feel like your entry point or our entry point now is like looking at things through what happens when you make meaning.
But what I have seen is that sometimes. It's like, I keep the meaning, so then, I don't know how to explain this, I keep the meaning, because if I don't have the meaning, then I'm not going to protect myself. Like, there's nothing to protect anymore. And so therefore, which is ultimately, like, what I want, but it's confusing, because I think I'm doing, like, a good thing, by like, oh, so let's just say, like, you were saying, you can do the work of like, hey, let's heal this story of the, I'm unlovable, and heal it to lovable.
But, but you do that, because at the core, you still have a story of, I'm bad. And
Kyley: it's just that the story may be getting smaller and smaller and smaller, but it's still[00:57:00]
Eva: yes, it's still there. And it's, and it's actually being upheld by the protector. That's what I'm saying is like really fucking crazy to me that I've seen is like, the story doesn't actually need to be there anymore that I'm bad, but it's there because of the thing that I'm doing that I think is actually really helpful, which is me continuously, um, focusing on the story of like how I am lovable.
I am lovable. I am lovable, but it's a story of I'm lovable is actually just upholding the story. In, in the middle. God, I wish you guys could see our
Kyley: Yes! Yes, yes, yes,
Eva: so much more sense if you can see our hands, but there's something at the core, which is the story of like, I'm bad, right? Is that kind of what you're saying?
Kyley: Yes! Yes! Our, the meaning, yes! The meaning, the meaning that I am lovable requires This is exactly what happened. I'm freaking out because I, because I basically, like afterwards, this is the first time I've been able to succinctly say what happened because I was just like, I am high on [00:58:00] mushrooms. I wasn't, but I was, but that's me. Because yes, our, our, in order to have this redemption arc, this story of our lovability, the story of like, I am unconditional love, we feed that story. That's me. With the, the villain that's also us, which is, I'm so animated, my bracelets are dangling like crazy, sorry everybody. With, we need our unlovability story in order to have the redemption arc, but if we don't need the meaning of the redemption arc, then we don't need the fuckin unlovability, and then we just get to be
Eva: Yes! Oh my, it's just a, but, okay, sorry. I don't know if you guys can tell the listeners, but just like here on video, I feel like Kyley and I are just both having like, we're excited, it's that moment of like, aha, Sherlock, like, whatever, like, we got it, we hit it, but like, but also I'm just, my mind is blown is that like, we're both having this simultaneous, like, discovery or whatever, [00:59:00] experience, realization, realization.
So And I mean, we are running out of time, so we might have to do a part two, but just to like, make this even juicier or complicated, like this is where again, the concept of duality comes in, which we've sometimes sort of have touched on in this podcast. And actually, I think I've said this to you, I want to have someone come on here and really talk about duality with us, but that's what we're speaking about is essentially duality.
Meaning if there's a badness and there, if there's a goodness and there has to be a badness and, and meaninglessness is another way of talking about non duality in which there is no such thing as. Separation. Like there's no good, there's no bad, there's no right, there's no wrong, there's no black, there's no white.
Those things are not real. Meaning, and what do you get, which is a parallel to what you're saying, like meaningless, like none of the meaning is real. Oh yeah.
Kyley: and it seems Cynical or terrifying or it's, it's, it's, there's all sorts of ways in which it is perhaps uncomfortable to venture into [01:00:00] and, and we, we crave this. Like, I'm good. You know, we crave it. It requires this obsessive commitment to our badness. for me, at least that is a continual source of suffering. And, uh, and, and I'm also loving that in addition to duality, the paradox of. Both are true, right? We showed up on an episode to talk about everything being meaningless, wearing matching sweaters, having found out that we were having like this parallel mind blowing experience at the same time, right?
There's so much delicious synchronicity and meaning that's happening in our very episode about meaninglessness,
Eva: Mm hmm.
Kyley: because the other thing that's really delicious that I find is that we surrender meaninglessness, that's the word that I'm using, we surrender to meaninglessness. And then we get the answer, right?
With my situation with Liz, every time I have [01:01:00] a surrender, I'm like, I don't need to know the why. That's when I get an answer, right? Some sort of wisdom shows up the moment I no longer need the answer,
Eva: Yeah. Which to me feels like truth.
Kyley: Yeah.
Eva: So maybe this will be a part two. Can we talk about the difference between like wisdom and meaning? And also I just, it doesn't feel complete for me without me being able just to talk about more about my scorniness because I
Kyley: Yes. I want to talk about that too.
Eva: yeah, because I also think that's something that people can relate to.
And I think really if anything, again, I'm just looking for more Kyley wisdom of like
Like, is it bad to want to look for meaning? Like, what happens if it's helpful? You know, that's another question that I have. That's for next time. Because, um,
Kyley: Immediately, I'm like, but is it
Eva: Exactly. That's what I say. And then exactly, I was just about to say the same thing of like, and even as I say that, I'm like, is that an illusion?
You know?
Kyley: And I think one of the things I, if we're writing our agenda for next time, one of the things that I would love is [01:02:00] I find freedom here, I have a hard time getting here, right? Like, it's like, I, I, some, sometimes I tripped and I arrive in this magical place, but, um, but I would love to talk through, and I think talking about our screwiness will help that, but it's.
It's, um, yeah, it's, uh,
Eva: Yeah. Like how do we, how do we exist here? Right. Like, I think what you're saying, I get it. Like you, we trip and, and then the realization comes, but, um, yeah, can, can this be enduring, you know? And, and also I, and then again, more squirminess stuff, which is like, but also like, I just think of people in my life who I, who I know who are like maybe so in meaninglessness that sometimes I'm just like, Annoyed because I'm like, no, I want you to like, live in meaning with me,
Kyley: mm,
Eva: if this means something, you know, like, because again, because I think that's coming from a belief that somehow meaninglessness is actually being nihilistic, which [01:03:00] I'm seeing.
Well, actually, I want to talk about that
Kyley: yeah, let's talk about it.
Eva: I'm not sure where the, where the lines cross, like if there is meaning, if it
Kyley: So, okay, so this episode, so this episode is Meaninglessness, is Liberation, and maybe next one is Meaningless is Terrifying.
Eva: Yeah.
Kyley: I'm also delighted by, and I know I'm gonna rescue you because I took my kids to school, but I'm also delighted by how, don't know if you experienced this, but like, there's a way in which. My own wisdom, I feel like my own medicine keeps revealing itself to me, meaning, like, my retreats are called Monster School, I run a group program called Villain Era that's literally about this good and bad doesn't exist, you're everything, and And I'm having this, this like experience of total freedom of like, Oh, everything's meaningless.
There's no good. There's no bad. Um, which also feels just like one of a hundred million times [01:04:00] that I'll have this realization. And I'm just having this moment of also being struck by how a version of me has set the, set the course a long time before I knew the course that I was on.
Eva: Hmm. Ugh, and you can trust that meaning. Okay, we got to
Kyley: should we do Joy? Rapid Fire Joy?
Eva: you go first.
Kyley: Uh, I was in France for two weeks everybody. I had croissants for breakfast every day for two weeks. I drank all of the coffee imaginable with my kids and my amazing husband who just, uh, is the best. And we just, uh, You know, we just, and I went to art museums with my kids and they were so great and curious and Desi and I sat on the floor for 40 minutes talking about Marc Chagall, like, and he had those, these like amazing, wise insights and, and, and, uh, Bertie kept falling asleep and being tired because she's five and we made her walk.
minimum of seven miles a day. And so I kept having to carry her around the [01:05:00] streets of Paris and she would just like snuggle in and they were so cute together and. the food, being able to speak French for the first time in 15 years, which I can do just a
Eva: Oh, I would love to hear you speak French.
Kyley: I mean, it's not that great, but um, I would get, I did get a lot of people who would answer me in English, which is very, I mean, answer me in French, which is very affirming, except listening is my worst French skill. And so then I was immediately outed as like, uh, I know. I'm sorry. So yeah, that's my joy is France.
Eva: Yeah, that's amazing. I'm so happy for you. And I missed you and uh, croissants, love croissants. Okay. My joy is Gosh, I think it just keeps coming back to the theme of nature, since, you know, I'm living so in nature now, and I think the joy really has something to do with like,
like how, [01:06:00] how I, I feel like I should be more prepared here, but I can't describe it exactly how accessible the nature is, and what I mean by that is then, and then I find creative ways to use nature. It's not just about being in nature. It's like something's happening where I'm I'm using nature in, like, really cool ways of just, like, sustainability and, like, finding pieces in nature that I can bring home and, like, use them as like art pieces or decor or something practical like, like a bird feeder.
It just, it's just like this natural thing that's happening and it's fun and it's creative. That's what it feels like. It's like creativity in nature. I also started, but I do not draw like at all guys. And I started drawing flowers because I'm making flower essences. with the flowers that I'm finding on this property.
It's just, it's like so fun. It's like this new awakening, this aliveness that's open. That's like, you know, awakening within me. It's like, I love making flower essences. And if you guys don't know what that is, it's like channeling the energy of flowers, which to me, I'm [01:07:00] just like, of course, energies are so fucking powerful.
Like they're flowers, flowers are like the most amazing fucking thing that God made. And then, and then you make them into like little medicines. And so I started drawing, have this like little handmade book where I'm drawing the flowers and then writing about their properties and I'm like, wow, what is this?
Who am I? You know, it's so, it's so nice to awaken. I think this part of me that's, that's been dormant that I think is alive in all of us. And, you know, I talk about how I don't really feel like I'm a creative person. And I think it's just because sometimes you don't have, I don't know, space or access. So anyway, yeah, that's really amazing.
Kyley: I, um, half want to ask Jennifer, who listeners don't know is our amazing editor, um, if you have a podcast, hire Jennifer immediately. Um, she, I kind of want to ask her to just do a mashup of Eva's Joy as soon as she arrived in Brazil, which has been about nature every single week. I don't know if you know that.
Every, every, I almost don't want to out it because now you'll know, but every single [01:08:00] joy since the moment you arrived in Brazil, every single
Eva: Oh my gosh. I didn't notice.
Kyley: about nature. But the best part is that everyone's different.
Eva: Hmm.
Kyley: like you're not saying the same joy. You're like, and this facet of the wilderness and this facet of the jungle and this facet of the ocean and this facet of the beach and earth of the
Eva: that makes me really happy. Actually. I'm glad you, I'm glad you pointed that out.
Kyley: Yeah. It's really delightful.
Eva: Okay. I can't wait for part two. We love you guys so much. If you like this episode, share it, review it. It really helps us grow the show. We
Kyley: Tell us what your, tell us your squirminess about meaninglessness
Eva: Yes. Yes. We like, we love hearing from y'all.