Making friends as an adult does not need to feel hard! Eva and Kyley talk the practical and emotional journey of making friends as you age, including Eva's recent efforts to put down roots in a new city and Kyley's attemps to make some cool local mom friends.
Making friends as an adult does not need to feel hard! Eva and Kyley talk the practical and emotional journey of making friends as you age, including Eva's recent efforts to put down roots in a new city and Kyley's attempts to make some cool local mom friends.
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Eva: [00:00:00] Hey everyone, it's Eva.
Kyley: And it's Kylie.
Eva: Welcome back to another episode. I'm excited about this one, so I'm, I hope that comes through.
Kyley: Yeah, when we were like just in jamming about, is this our, is this the topic we wanna take? We got so amped we had to like cut ourselves off. Like, wait, no, we haven't recorded yet. So that's always a good sign.
Eva: Yeah. Um, okay, we're gonna talk about making friends as adults. I feel like there's a lot that we can say. I feel guarantee there are people out there listening who are like, oh, this is something I, that I think is hard, that I struggle with, that I would like to have more of in my [00:01:00] life. Um, and I think Kylie and I are like, we just wanna share our experience and I think we have some pretty good success stories.
So before we jump into all of that, what would you like to share with our beautiful listeners today?
Kyley: Doors are officially open on Alchemy, which is the money course that I run.
I run it with my dear Palace Simpson, who will be on the show, I think next week to talk more about it. Um,
Eva: we loved Liz, so she'll be back.
Kyley: I mean, I'm biased because Eva and Liz are my two closest friends, and so like, we're all just gonna jam out on the show together. Um,
Eva: is always a good time.
Kyley: yeah. Um, there are a lot, there is a lot of advice about Bunny in the world.
There is an avalanche of information and ideas and opinions and rules and suggestions about money, and there is also a tremendous amount of emotional anguish about money. And there's nowhere to go with that emotional, an anguish everywhere [00:02:00] that you go is just another like person standing on the stage hollering what you should do differently or what you should do better, or what you need to fix.
And meanwhile, there's this like real tender fear and worry, and I think a lot of shame and anxiety and um, and hunger for something new and different. Right? Um, and, and there are not a lot of spaces to help you process the ways in which money is emotionally complicated, right? Really basically have made it the, the, the linchpins for survival in our society.
And then are also like, all right, fucking figure it out. We're not gonna teach you anything about it. Right? You don't learn anything about it in
Eva: Ugh. Yes, totally. That's which is like, yeah. Bonkers.
Kyley: need it. Uh,
Eva: You need it for your survival. Our whole all life is dependent on it, but no one tells you shit about how to have a he, how to like, have a healthy relationship. How to, how to relate to money in a, in a sane way.
Kyley: Yes, [00:03:00] exactly. And so, um, there's just like, no, there's no space anywhere other than this idea that you need to like fix it and figure it out and hurry up while you're at it. And there are certainly some spaces that talk about like re like, you know, money blocks and money healing. And also, um, you know, in my experience, some of those are tremendous and some of those also have a real lot of pressure to like, Fix yourself, right?
Like this whole idea of like, be grateful for money when like maybe you're actually scared and resentful and you don't have access to that gratitude because there's real pain there, right? So, so this is a course about looking at what your actual emotional relationship to and with and around money is.
I'll speak to this more in the podcast next week, next week. But, um, there's also a way in which we are projecting untold numbers of things onto money that, that also like, need space to be processed. Um, but you know, [00:04:00] the thing that I, a thing that I am really powerful at helping people with is understanding the core issue in whatever it is that you're trying to navigate, right?
Like patterns and like, and, and like diving into the deep core of the wound is the space that I am interested in holding. And so if you. Have a conflicted relationship with money, aka, I suppose if you're a human being
Eva: Mm-hmm.
Kyley: and you want to experience something new and different and you don't want to feel like you're fucking wrong all the time and you want to be able to hold yourself tenderly, um, I don't know anything else like alchemy.
So come sign up.
Eva: I mean, really what you're speaking to is like, you know, the goal as you know, for me around all things is like liberation. I just wanna feel. Liberated by the, the things that are chains for me. So like I'm hearing you say like, if, if money is a chain for you, and like, you know, if you're listening to [00:05:00] this, you know who you are
Kyley: yeah.
Eva: for some people money is like the big life lesson, right?
And so if that's you, I, I, I know that like you crave liberation around that and I know that's something that you really help people with beyond just the, the strategic tactics that sometimes Yeah. Actually that are like useless if you don't do like the healing of the core wounding.
Kyley: Right. Because like a, a huge aha moment for me was when I was, um, when I was first graduated from college, I had a job, I was an editorial assistant and I made $28,500 a year. And then many, many years later, I was a sales director and I made $120,000 a year. And the, um, that the stories around money
Eva: Yeah. Or the same.
Kyley: were a lot more similar than you would think, right?
Like in one, I was literally struggling to like, like, like I had creditors calling me or when I was in Col, [00:06:00] right? Right. That like EEA editorial assistant job. I had creditors calling me like I had, I couldn't make ends meet. And also, The other situation, like I had a house and I had like nicer clothes and for sure I do not wanna dismiss like a different kind of actual physical safety.
Absolutely. And also my body couldn't process that. I was in a physically different and emotionally safe place
Eva: Yeah. Which is, yeah,
Kyley: Yeah.
Eva: this is really common. I think there's like, and, and maybe you've talked about this before too, but like a lot of people get money and then like, somehow it's gone right away because like you can get a shit ton of money and then it's like gone because you don't know how to hold it,
Kyley: it's dangerous to hold it, right? Yeah. The cycle of boom and bust and then people feel tremendous shame around cycles of boom and bust. But like you're just literally trying to regulate your own nervous system when you do, or you're just trying to create safety. Every single thing you do with money is you trying to create safety, even if it's the unsafety of not having your needs met.
Because on some deep right, again, within, and this [00:07:00] is not victim blaming, this is like all of this is happening within. Racist patriarchy, late stage capitalism, right? You are existing within a toxic system that is built on extraction and making your survival vulnerable. And also at the same time, you're expected to just be grateful about money all the
Eva: Yeah. Yeah.
Kyley: a fucked up, that that is an emotionally abusive relationship.
Eva: To, to, I mean, capitalism is an emotionally abusive relationship. It definitely
Kyley: Yeah. Yeah. See, okay, sorry, I can't even talk about this without like, is this supposed to be my like quick five minute, like your five second drop about
Eva: I mean, yeah. But you and I love, love talking about just like, fuck capitalism in the system. So like, yeah, I get it. We, that's like one
Kyley: and I, I think, I also think we all carry such tremendous pain and shame and grief about money that it's one of those things, like you have an injury and the injury starts to heal, and you're like, oh, I actually didn't know it was possible to feel good.
Eva: Mm-hmm. Yeah. Yeah.
Kyley: I mean, also, I haven't even gotten to the point that like, I also think this is a path to making more money, [00:08:00] right?
It's a yes. And but, but it's, if we, it's a yes. And, um, but to your point of liberation, like I want us all to unhook from the, I want us all to unhook from the shit that's being us, feel sick and miserable. I want us to feel safe, and I want you to be able to kind of, to create the wealth that you are genuinely hungry for in your life.
Um, and that's what Alchemy is.
Eva: Ugh. And this is your medicine and I know you're very good at it and I love talking to you about money stuff cuz you're always ha here to like, help me unhook. So yeah, everybody get on that shit if. If money, if you want money to be your medicine rather than your nemesis.
Kyley: Yes, yes, yes. Money is teacher in Alchemy, so, yeah. All right. Thanks for letting me soapbox
Eva: Yeah. Well, we're the, we're so
Kyley: Oh.
Eva: dm, DM U Instagram.
Kyley: DM me. Uh, you can also, the website. I actually, well, the website will be in the, in the [00:09:00] bio, um, in the show notes here. And also come to find me on TikTok or Facebook or um, Instagram, and it'll be there.
Or you can DM me and we can chat. Um, and the other thing I will say too is we're doing, um, we're asking folks who are interested to come and book a call with us because we are also really wanna make sure that like, fit is really important for, for this and for this container. Um, so we're super jazzed to have these conversations with folks to, to find out if this is the space that makes sense for you in this moment in your journey.
So come book a call, let's.
Eva: Awesome. I love it. Yay. Cool. I'm excited for you guys. I'm excited for your future people who are gonna be in the program. Um, okay. Well, so interestingly enough, you're talking about safety, and I think the truth is, um, that is, you know, it's Maslow's hierarchy of needs. Like what we're all looking for really is safety, but it's looking at the trauma, the traumatic thing in your life that happened that made you feel unsafe.
That's the thing that we're [00:10:00] constantly trying to like, repair or figure out. So Fittingly, um, I'm here to promote my program safe and secure. Um, a program for people whose lives have been impacted by a loved one's addiction. If you currently loved someone who struggles with addiction or maybe in the past, this program is for you and the name is, the program is Safe and Secure, actually suggested by a client, my participant, from the first round, which I loved so much.
It made me like just feel so
Kyley: Hmm.
Eva: s. Grateful, but she was like, I feel like this program gave me the experience of feeling safe and secure. So why don't you call it that? So if you, so, okay, this is, I'm talking to a very, to you specific people out there who, you know, like that complicated relationship with the person that you love who's struggling with addiction.
Like chances are in that relationship you did not feel safe and you did not feel secure. You felt insecure either because you were like, for gazillion reasons, you maybe you couldn't trust [00:11:00] this person. Maybe, um, they were always like lying or maybe you were second guessing them, or maybe you were being gaslit.
Like there's all these
Kyley: just wildly unreliable. You didn't know which version of them you were gonna get.
Eva: Yes. Oh my God, yes. That like, all tho those are ways in which you're like, wait, is it me? Like you're just feeling completely insecure about your own self. And then you, what I hear from so many people is that like, that's the hangup that's created is that you're, um, Kind of constantly checking yourself because your reality is just kind of warped or you feel unsafe, which is, you know, parallel to being insecure.
But in some situations, like, like actually so physically unsafe. Or financially unsafe, that's another huge one. That's a financial burden of like maybe being in a partnership with someone who has a gambling addiction. Like all these ways that this can show up. Um, you don't feel safe because like you're out in public and maybe this person is like embarrassing you, you know, like you don't feel safe around your family because like, you know, the, your kids aren't [00:12:00] safe.
Like, there's so many ways in which this shows up. And so if you, if you know these hangups really what I wanna offer, because this was my story. I mean, honestly, my relationship with my mother being an alcoholic is the reason I'm a coach. Like 100 fucking 50%. Like that's, that connection has always been very clear to me.
It's because, oh, I was so, um, I mean, you've heard me talk about this. I was really fucked up. I was like, just like, uh, reckless living, also just completely insecure, like, just kind of a messy person for a lot of my life. And that was a result of like, not like knowing safety and security when I was younger.
And so that like came out in a lot of different ways. And I know that suffering like firsthand, it, it's just, um, I have a lot of compassion for it. It's, so, it feels really important to me that I get to offer a space for other humans who've had this experience that's confusing. So we can come together and like, share about our experience [00:13:00] without shame.
Because I think oftentimes shame is like really tied into this without needing to protect the person that we love over our own wellbeing, um, without judgment and like do this healing together as a, as a group, um, while also learning like. All the fucking badass skills that I think are truly helpful for like, rewiring your brain and like rewiring your body, um, and coming into a place of like safety and security so that in your current life, in your relationships, like in your job, in, in all the areas where maybe, um, the safe, the sense of safety in, in and or un unsafety and insecurity has creeped into your life can start to get resolved.
And, um, that's been my experience firsthand. I really believe in this. So if, if you are someone who, um, are like new to this work, or even if you've done Alanon for like a million years, this program is still for you. Or if you're [00:14:00] like alanon adjacent, that's another thing I hear a lot is like people are like, I tried Alan Al-Anon and I don't really, it's not really, didn't feel like it was for me.
I'm looking for something different. Like this is very much a spiritual program. So, um,
Kyley: Yeah. Everybody get in there. Get in there.
Eva: get it. Yeah. Get in here. Come join this community. Um, we start April 13th, so that's next week. After next week I think. Um, you can DM me, go to my website, um, and I hope to see you there.
Kyley: Yeah. I mean, I'm just super jazzed for, I think one of the things about, you know, loving someone with, with, you know, substance abuse issues is one of the, like most common things is all the ways in which you sacrifice yourself. In order to, in order to try to create the illusion of safety or security.
Right. And I think, um, I can just feel the potency of this program gives people [00:15:00] permission to like, choose themselves and feel safe choosing themselves and come back to themselves and come home to themselves. And, um, I think in like big and also just really little ways, there's just like a, there's a million, you know, I think when we've been baked in these kind of experiences, there's like a million small ways all day that we don't even realize that are coming from these old patterns.
And
Eva: Hmm.
Kyley: feel really jazzed for the exhale that's gets to happen for all the people who step
Eva: Yeah. For this like really just like particular demographic of people that I have so much love for, I'm just like, come to mama. Like I got you. Like I get it. I fucking see you. And like it's so important that we do this work together. Yeah.
Kyley: Yeah. Yeah, cuz then you don't feel like alone or like broken or you know, it's just like,
Eva: Yeah. A lot of times people have a hard time talking about this, which I did for a very long time. Um, so yeah, I get it. Okay. [00:16:00] Anyway, now that was a very, now that we've come to our very
Kyley: I have an important transition item, which is that while we were talking I found a one inch chin hair.
Eva: One inch. That is impressive.
Kyley: I know. Like that baby has been hiding out, waiting for prime time. And prime time was while we were recording and as I found it, I was like, if this is what I think it is, Eva is going to fucking love this
Eva: I am Exactly. Because I've told you before, like, yeah. Just like, oh, and then, and then once I like touch, I can't see it or like touch it. I can't un touch
Kyley: Yeah, no, absolutely. Have I told you this story? Uh, I have a hilarious story, but we were, so, Nick and I were at a wedding from a college friend that we hadn't seen in years cuz they, the couple had moved to Hawaii, so we hadn't seen them in a super, super long time. And we're at this wedding and so it's like dear people, but people we haven't seen in like, maybe five years, right?
And we're standing in the buffet line with another good friend that we hadn't seen in a really long time and we're all catching up and Nick leans over and he thinks, he's like moving a [00:17:00] piece of hair off of my face. And then he realizes, he pulls it out and it is like, it is like three or four guys. I am not a, I'm just not a woman who has a lot of like facial hair.
I've ne I've literally never plucked a single thing off my eyebrow. Like it's just not the way
Eva: Oh wow. I was gonna say like you skipped the two thousands, like that trend.
Kyley: And, and so, um, and so like, it makes it even more impressive, like, where the fuck did this come from? It literally, he like goes to move it. And then again, talking to a friend I haven't seen in five years
Eva: Oh my God.
Kyley: out and it is like four inches long.
Eva: Wow. That is amazing.
Kyley: Where have you been hid?
Eva: Wait, so what, how was that per, how was that received by everybody
Kyley: my, we were laughing
Eva: Oh, okay. Good.
Kyley: Yeah, we were peeing our pants laughing. Um,
Eva: Oh, that's
Kyley: so anyway, so this is like a baby compared to that one.
Eva: Yeah, I mean, this is what good friendship is about guys being able to share your [00:18:00] chin hair stories,
Kyley: Yeah, right. This is, see that's why it was a perfect segue. Yeah. Come for the deep meaningful talk. Stay for the chin hair
Eva: Yeah. Um, okay. Let's talk about adult friendship because, um, it's a thread that's been weaved throughout our time together, but I don't think we've officially talked about it. And it's very alive in my life right now, and I think it's been alive for both of us really since we started this podcast. Because actually part of the reason we started this podcast was we were like, oh, I want a space where I can talk about my weird shit and like, it, like, and I don't have people in my immediate surroundings that can, that I can do that with, right?
Kyley: Yeah, I mean I think one of the reasons I emailed you cuz it, so for, if the listeners don't know, Eva was my meditation coach a long time ago, and then a pack of time went by and then I kind of reached out to you and turned out we both had the same idea for this podcast. But one of the [00:19:00] reasons I reached out to you is cause I was like, so something spiritual is happening and I might be losing my mind.
And there's this one woman who was really cool that one time, a long time ago and maybe she, she seemed normal.
Eva: I mean, such a, such a huge compliment because it's like, yeah, can't I hold the space for like, you know, com witchy, but also like my, you know, my, I have my shit together cause I have two feet planted on the floor. Um, but that's so funny. This woman that you met a couple years ago, cause I always just like loved you, you know what I mean?
Like, you have clients who you just like adore. And I just, that's why when you reached out I was like, fuck yeah. Like let's do this. Um, I. But it's been come up a lot because, like, even during the pandemic, I know we had like conversations about being lonely. That was like a big thing. And, um, I think, I wanna bust the myth that making friends as an adult is hard.
Like I hear that so often. It's like a fucking, like, [00:20:00] weird like quote that people just say like, oh, it's just, you know how like it's, I hate it when people say things as if it's just true and mm-hmm. Like, they're just like, it's, it's like this thing that you say and you're like, yeah, everyone knows it's obvious.
Like, you know, it's, it like, yeah, of course. It's, we all, we all know it's hard to make friends as an adult. And I'm like, is that true? Like, I wanna just blow through what I think is that is a form of kind of a limiting belief.
Kyley: yeah, it's funny that you say that because that, like when you say that, I'm like, oh, yeah, I guess people do say that, but it, that's, I don't remember the last time I heard someone say that. So like, it just doesn't feel like it's in my, in, in, yeah.
Eva: which is good. I mean, I think that speaks volumes because what is in your psyche, I think is what your reality is.
Kyley: Right, right, right. Yeah. Um, well, and I, I'm, I'm, I think this is a very timely, I'm glad we're having this topic now because, [00:21:00] um, Well, we also, we started this season by having a whole con episode about community, so this also seems like a reoccurring theme of
Eva: Mm-hmm.
Kyley: but you know, you've just moved to Austin where you have, don't have a ton of roots yet, and so I think I'm kind of just curious to throw it right in your lap to begin kind of what your experience has been like so far with
Eva: Yeah. Okay. I'd be happy, I'd be happy to dish, but to, to rewind to, even before getting to Austin, like I felt in my body, that community was so important to me that I was trying to join a commune. Like that's how this Austin trip started. I was like, I actually wanna join an in an intentional community and see if living in community with others in this way is at, is for real, if it's sustainable, if it's not just like a cult, you know?
So, because I have said my main pillars right now, and this will, will probably change, but like, when I think about what's important to me now, it's like connecting to the earth, [00:22:00] uh, building community. I think, and there was one more thing like, oh, doing, just doing things that I love. And so like community is like a huge piece of that.
And I don't know if this is, Sophia Adler former, um, guest and also your current client, she's amazing. She does astrology reading. So I went to her and she was like, she explained to me that this might just be like a cancer thing cause I'm a cancer rising, which like, which like or was, yeah. And so, you know, it's, I don't really, I'm not actually that astrology illiterate, but this idea that like in my older age I'm gonna wanna move towards like being very close with people and building some type of community.
So I was like, maybe this is why, cuz the urge is just so strong. Um, maybe, oh, actually I know why. Sorry. This is very important for you. Other introverts out there. It's important to me because I'm such a fucking introvert that I know that if I don't make an effort, I will literally be one of those people who just dies alone in my apartment because I'm [00:23:00] so happy being by myself.
Like they're gonna smell my body after seven days. Like that's how much I like, love being alone, that I think I have to balance it out a little bit cuz I want someone to find my body.
Kyley: Okay. That's my, if we were still doing audio clips, that's the audio clip right there.
Eva: Yeah. So I think it's, anyway, so, and then, so the reason I came to Austin was cause I got this opportunity to do this, um, apprenticeship where we're creating a community space. And in the interim what I've been doing is my, to go back to your question about, so what's my experience been? My experience has been that, um, energetically I've just been much more open to making friends.
Because what the truth is, and I hate admitting this, but this happens and I think I feel a little bit of shame around this, but when I get into a relationship, And things are just copacetic. I [00:24:00] just don't even, I wanted to make friends even when I was with Adam, but it was just so easy not to, like, you just get so comfortable.
Right? It's like I just want, I get to just like Netflix and chill. I don't have to make an effort.
Kyley: I think it's interesting that you mentioned feeling shame, um, because it feels to me so natural. Like that's one of the, that's one of the things that's beautiful about partnership, right? Is that it's like a. It's a built-in person. So, you know, it feels like the very reason for it is that you just then, um,
Eva: a, yeah, there's like a, a beautiful side to it and a, and a not great side to it,
Kyley: yeah.
Eva: Yeah. And by the way though, I will say I am very proud of myself. It's what I'm talking about. It, it isn't like where I used to do this actually, I think when I was like in my teenage years where I would like get so into my relationship that I was like, n not present for my friends.
Like that's, and I didn't like [00:25:00] that either. I don't, I don't think that's cool. Do you know what I mean? You get just so like involved. Um, so I'm still like close with the people that I'm close with. But even when I was with Adam, I was like, I'm, I'm, I want community. And I kept saying it, but I was doing nothing about it.
Kyley: yeah, yeah. Well, it's a big, I mean, it can fe, it can feel like a lot of effort and it can feel. I think confusing about where to start and it's like, okay, well I could go to this Meetup bowling game or bowling alley event with people I don't know, or I could sit here with my partner and we could watch the Mandalorian
Eva: exactly. And that's like, exactly. And so I, I mean, you're actually helping me with something because I think I need to have some compassion for myself like that if that just happens. But I also, I guess I wanna make sure that like, if I get into another relationship, because I don't want the, I don't want, I don't like the message to be that [00:26:00] like you have to go through upheaval in your life and break up with your partner in, in order to make new friends.
Like, I don't, I think knowing what I know now, I would tell my old self is that it's actually not gonna be as hard as you think it is. Like, Like that's what it was, is I didn't make the effort because like you said, it feels hard esp and it feels hard because you have this nice, comfortable other couch option over here.
But like, it's really, if you're, I think it is about being energetically open to it and also believing that it's not gonna be this h uphill climb. And then, I don't know, I just feel like my experience in Austin has been, things have just been coming to me, and the difference is before when I would like, uh, kind of drag my ass, I, the difference, the only difference is now I'm saying yes, I'm like open now.
Kyley: Yeah. Um, what has made it feel easy? Because I, I think that that makes a lot of sense. And also, you know, I think, I'm just thinking of me in middle [00:27:00] school, right? Who did not, friendship was not her strong suit. I had one friend,
Eva: Really? Yes. I wanted to talk about, yeah, I wanted to talk about this. Can we go back to like childhood and talk about how our, what our experiences are with making friends?
Kyley: Sure. You wanna go first? You want me to
Eva: I want you to go, I love this. I wanna go back to what you said. Like what elementary school, Kylie.
Kyley: Yeah. Okay. Well, elementary school, Kylie, we moved a lot when I was in elementary school. So I, I will say this, I consistently like being older, that has been the through line of my life, meaning, yes.
Eva: Oh, you mean, oh, you like getting older? Yeah. Okay.
Kyley: Um, like when I was in elementary school, we moved a, we moved a bunch of times in elementary school, and so I never, I just always felt like an out.
I, yeah, just always felt like, I don't know, we didn't really have friends. I remember having like one school, there was like a lot of mean girl stuff, which I think was just girls being girls, but I had just moved there and was very confused by it. And other schools, I [00:28:00] just remember feeling like, I was like always confused and as an and an outsider, like I didn't get the rules.
I didn't get how to like be friends. Other people had already made their friends. And school felt easy. I'm like, I get homework, I get the rules here. I know how to talk to adults. Um, like at one point in, I mean, yeah, in El Elementary school, I mostly, like in fifth grade, I just remember crying in recess a lot because I just felt like
Eva: Aw,
Kyley: devastatingly lonely.
Eva: I didn't know this about
Kyley: oh. Yeah. I used to, I like volunteered to do like extra math credit in recess in part cause I wanted to like be in the smart kids math and I wasn't at the time, but also because I just didn't want to go to recess.
Eva: Wait, hold on. I think the reason I'm surprised by this is because it's understandable if this would be like a traumatizing thing, cuz I think this is a lot of people's trauma when they like. Have, you know, experience of like, and I've had clients come to me with this too, this idea of like, no, I know some [00:29:00] version of like, peop people don't choose me, or I've never fit in, you know, or all of, all of that stuff that unfortunately we deal with like little kids and it's so heartbreaking.
But that doesn't seem to come through with you,
Kyley: No, I mean, I, I do have, definitely have some baggage around being chosen, but it's, it's not, it's older than elementary school. But, um, but I think, well, I'm grateful for my experience because then I got to sick. I got to elementary, I got to middle school, and I had my first like real true, best friend. Her name is Megan.
She's still my oldest friend, still my best friend. And, um, and we were like, didn't know how to be friends with anybody else, but we were friends with each other, thick as Thie and. By the end of eighth grade, I started to have like, I mean, I'm, I had, I started to have more friends in middle school, and by the end of eighth grade I started to feel like, okay, I think I have a couple friends.
And then, but I always had Megan, and then we got to high school and then like, and it was like another, each, each like, um, [00:30:00] and then I was like, I had more friends in high school. Um, so there was this sense of like, it kept getting a little bit easier. Um, so I think that helped. And then, but then I moved in high school again, and so then I had to start.
That sucked. But it, it also sucked in a way that was like,
Eva: Oh, you moved in high school. That's a hard one.
Kyley: yeah, it is,
Eva: So wait, what grade?
Kyley: Uh, I went to 11th and 12th grade in Maine.
Eva: Damn, that's hard.
Kyley: Yeah, it was, it was hard. Um, I had a really cool job working at this like vegetarian coffee restaurant and coffee shop, and I. Like, well, I really liked being there. Like I didn't really feel like I fit in in high school, but these, like, you know, chefs and fellow coffee shop workers in their, like early twen, like, they felt more like I understood them and they understood me.
I wasn't like friends with 'em, I didn't hang out with them outside of being at work. It wasn't like I was way too much of a goodie touches for that, but it was just like, it [00:31:00] was a place where I felt at home, but it wasn't, I didn't feel at home in high school, um, after college and I was like, oh, these are my people.
Eva: Uh, yeah, that's, that's the experience for some too, right? Oh, I think, yeah. I'm glad to hear
Kyley: Mm-hmm. And so, um, yeah, I had had a tremendous, like, I had a ton of friends in and at college I met Nick and, um, yeah, I, I don't know. It just, and it has, it is, that has been my consistent experiences, like every iteration of like older.
Eva: Mm-hmm.
Kyley: And maybe it's just the process of me becoming more of myself.
I don't, I don't know how, I don't have an explanation for it, but I just always, like, I keep finding friendship easier as I get older in a lot of
Eva: So I love that. So I wanna point out something now, and then we'll come back to it later because I think it'll fit more into like where we are now. But I just wanna say where you are now, what I've [00:32:00] observed, which I've said to you, like in passing, is that I feel like you make friends really well.
Like I've seen you, oh, first of all, I think this, this is true for both of us, but like so many of our friends are like online friends that have become like really, really, really me and you are online friends. Like, you know, like I trust you with my life and you're my, I see you primarily online.
Kyley: Yeah. We do have that. One time we met in
Eva: we, we, yes we have met in person before, but like, but you know, yeah.
Anyway, but um, but yes, I will, and I wanna come back to this cuz like, what I have seen is like folks who are listening, Kylie's really good at making friends and I think it's cool. I even asked you about it. I was like, how are you doing that? So let's come back to that in a second. Um, okay. I'm gonna tell you my history.
This is funny for me to like, go back and, and try and reflect. It's actually giving me a lot of appreciation because I'm realizing like I had a short bout of being a huge loser up until third [00:33:00] grade. I mean like, popularity was already a thing and I was like so insecure and just a total fucking dork. And. I remember feeling like a loser. Isn't that actually, sorry, can we just talk about that for a second? Being a kid and that feeling of being a loser,
Kyley: Oh,
Eva: like isn't it sad that, you know what that feels like even without language? Oh, I'm sorry. My heart is just like breaking.
Kyley: know I'm back in middle school gym class. That was the, that was the most painful of my social experiences I think of my whole life was middle school gym. Ugh.
Eva: I know. Middle Jim is, I mean, Jim is just bad territory, you know,
Kyley: It is bad. I can see right now the like oversized, I had this like giant
Eva: Oversized. I was gonna say I wore oversized. Yes.
Kyley: gra masks on.
Eva: I was literally, I even remember, like, I, I didn't have the language for it, but I was trying to hide my body. I was like trying to hide myself because I was so, I just didn't like myself and I was just trying to like, kind of hide myself. It was, [00:34:00] it was weird that I had that instinct to do that.
Yeah.
Kyley: I think my mom was the, my mom. Like my mom had a lot of pressure in, in her life about like body image in the sense of, my mom's very, very beautiful and always has been. And people kind of only saw her as that. And so when she was raising us, I think she took great pains to like, not emphasize that, but occasionally that meant like, like, like I, there were times and eventually I would speak up and then she like helped.
But there were times where she would like not be like, oh, you want cute clothes for Jim? Like, duh. Right? Because I think she wanted to not make that important for us. And so I would have these like dumb, dumpy, boring clothes and it also didn't have any fucking money. But, um, but yeah, I don't even, like, I remember wanting like Jim clothes that didn't feel so stupid, but also being like, I don't get help.
Like I don't get what they're doing that's different, but it's not this giant Monica t-shirt. Like where [00:35:00] did it come from? I dunno. Anyone who's ever been to Monica,
Eva: I mean, prob secondhand, you know, like, I don't know. The rift maybe. Yeah.
Kyley: Yeah, exactly. Exactly.
Eva: that's hilarious. Yeah, I don't know, man. I just, I just like had big like hearts out to all of us, all, everybody listening who had the, that like loser phase. I just wanna remember like, wanting to be popular. And then I don't know, like what happened.
I mean, I could probably point to a couple of things that are too long to explain here, but like, basically overnight I became popular and I like, well, I made, I had these close friends and then I actually, I made close friends and then I got popular and that was like a whole weird thing. But basically I, I, if I'm being totally honest, I've always thought that it was God's way of helping me out because my home situation was so fucked up and was so dire that God was like, okay, well let me balance this out for you because like that situation's all sorts of messed up.
So it was, it did feel like a sense of balance [00:36:00] and honestly from. Like junior high all the way to college, passed college to living in New York, living in Japan for a hot second. I've just realized, like I've always made friends. Um, so God, I'm just like feeling very fortunate and I think what's helping me, what I'm like, what's landing for me right now is I think, if I'm being really honest, starting this business and working for myself, like, you know, having my own place for the first time in Arizona.
Then the pandemic really turned on this story for me, that I'm an introvert and you hear me say that all the time, and I also think getting older, you like kind of grow into certain things and I think I am, but looking back historically, like, I don't know, I've always made friends and maybe I don't need to hold onto that story as like tightly as I do, I wonder.
Kyley: that makes, I can totally see that. And also that like, The introvert. I, I think if you're someone who, [00:37:00] you know, your, your story that you shared is like your twenties were like out every night in New York City. And so I can see how the, in like the introvert identity is actually something precious, right?
Because it is in some ways symbolic of your ability to be alone with yourself, which wasn't always available to you. So I can see that and um, yeah. Can also see, um, yeah cuz you also do strike me as like incredibly social person, which I know introvert and being social are not mutually exclusive, but, um
Eva: So I share all that to say though, that I did notice, like, so I'm 38. 39 right now. Somewhere like in my thirties though, I started to feel like, wait, it does feel like it's harder to make friends as an adult. I was like, again, I do think like running your own business, if you're a business, if you're an entrepreneur and you're listening to this, you know that it can be a very isolating experience, right?
And so yeah, you don't have a job where you go hang out with your colleagues and [00:38:00] well, all these things. So I think this is where this topic of like making friends maybe has like been born is that like noticing that it did start to feel hard and then me being like, wait, but I don't want that to be true.
True.
Kyley: I also wanna reflect, like, since like you had relatively recently moved to Phoenix when we first started recording the
Eva: Mm-hmm. Yeah.
Kyley: then you moved to Portland and now you're in Austin. Like that's also, those are the, like if a lot of our friendships when they're rooted in being in person, you've been through like pretty significant shifts in that.
And you didn't have a much people in Phoenix, right? It was, it was, it was Adam, right? Did you have no other people when you moved?
Eva: Yeah. No, I didn't know anyone else. Yeah.
Kyley: Yeah. So it makes a shitload of sense that this would be a chapter where you're like, oh, friendships feels harder, because
Eva: Mm-hmm.
Kyley: like, you don't have an like, right. Like I have, um, I have, uh, a mom friend.
I have, I've, I have, I have a [00:39:00] couple of mom friends, guys. It's very exciting. I'll get to that later. But like, like one of these women I've known for almost two years and we've hung out twice. Do you know what I mean? Like, I think in-person friendships sometimes, um, they don't have to move slow, but they can move slow.
And then here you are, like in this p season of moving.
Eva: Yeah. Yeah, yeah. Yes. So again, you asked this question like early on in the show when I think it's an important one to answer. It's like, okay, so like what's happening now, because this is really what I wanna share with people is that I said, I started saying yes, meaning, Couple, like they've just, people have just been coming in different ways. One way is really just people on Instagram seeing that I'm moving to Austin, being like, Hey, I'm in Austin. Like, do you wanna hang out? And old, me being like, n kinda like, no, for whatever reason, cause I was lazy or didn't wanna make the effort.
Now it's like, or, or, or whatever. Maybe I didn't what for so many reasons right now I'm like, yes. Like I'm just saying [00:40:00] yes.
Kyley: Hmm.
Eva: The other way is like, um, yeah, I told you, I mentioned like my client introduced me to like my, it's people introducing me to their people and that always feels like such an honor.
But you know, I really do think if you're someone who's like trying to make friends as an adult, especially if you move to a new city, you can be like, Hey, who, who do you know? Like, hook me up with your people. Meaning, what I'm saying is you kinda have to put yourself out there. Like you really have to be intentional about putting yourself out there.
Um, which I think can feel again, like a lot of terrifying or like a lot of w work when I think what I wanna say to you is like, it's not gonna be as much work as you think that it is.
Kyley: What I also love is you saying there's something too about you speaking to what you are hungry for,
Eva: Yeah.
Kyley: Like cuz you could, we all do this where we want something but we don't ask for it. And so I think there's a way that also you saying like, okay, who do you know? And do you know people who knows people in Austin, I [00:41:00] wanna meet them, which is its own vulnerable thing.
And also, um, Because I'm sure that there are people who would've been like, oh, well I know someone, but that would be presumptuous to try to introduce these people. But because you asked, then the invitation is there and, um,
Eva: yeah, yeah. Um, and I wanna be very clear, I'm very early on in my process. Friendship takes time. You know, I think like it's just developing trust. So like, I don't wanna speak pre prematurely because I'm still getting to know these women who have come into my life recently and I'm just starting to build relationships and, um, but I just feel actually much more confident like that, even if maybe I'm not, I end up not being compatible with these people for whatever reason, that I'm like, oh, if I like say yes and have like the courage to put myself out there, it's totally possible.
Kyley: hmm. Yeah. How do you feel [00:42:00] about, so when you're saying say Yes, I'm also thinking. Why it would be stressful for me to say yes, which in part is cuz like I, I have like 20 minutes to myself a day, right? So it's like, but I also think that there's something about, there have been chapters in my life where I have been hesitant to say yes to like meeting someone in person when I had more time, because I basically didn't trust my ability to say no later. So it's like if you meet someone new and then you're like, oh, this isn't really a friendship, I'm like, no, no, no, no issue, no problem. But like this isn't actually a friendship that I really wanna continue.
Eva: I mean that's really interesting. I don't wanna like put my foot in my mouth because I feel like once I say something, the universe might be like, well, haha, let's see if this is true. But like, I think it's actually easier to end a new friendship because you have every ex like reason. Cuz you're like, oh, it's harder to end an old friendship.
But if you're, whether you're an with a new person, you're like, Hey, you know what? I kind of realized, like, I don't know exactly how I would word it, [00:43:00] but I would actually feel like, I think I'd be like, I wouldn't. Like, sorry. And I mean that in a good way. I wouldn't be like, oh my God, I'm like so bad. I feel like I'm just do being honest and doing this person a favor because they don't, if I don't wanna be their friend, then they shouldn't be mine either.
Kyley: Yes. This is one of the things I love about you. This is like your Capricorn like Yeah, it just, you just, you just say the thing and it's fine. But I think like the me who is a recovering, people pleaser would feel like, because there's not like a common script for like, oh, I went on a few dates and this isn't working out for me.
Right. Like a few friend, like friendship inherently has a murky territory to it in a way that, like dating for example, because you're basically talking about like dating for
Eva: But you actually could just say exactly that meaning, and I know that because, so when I say it's, I have broken up more long-term friendships. I've actually like written an email to someone before that was just like, I just can't, couldn't do this relationship anymore. [00:44:00] And it was a breakup email.
Kyley: Mm-hmm.
Eva: And I was like, at that one I did feel really bad about because I was like, oh, that, that far felt hearted, but it actually also felt like the most just kind thing, like honest thing.
And so, um, I know it's strange, but I Yeah, you're, you're right. I think it might be hard, but, and that would be a kind of hard, that might be good for you to practice. Like maybe you have to write the breakup email.
Kyley: I mean, I, I, I have, I have done, I have done that before, but I actually specifically wanted to mention it because, I'm thinking, I'm thinking of listeners, right? And I'm thinking of like, what are the reasons, like what are the reasons why you might not want to say yes or you might not want to put yourself out.
And I think one of them is fear of rejection. But then I also think another one of them is like, oh, but then am I gonna be fucking stuck being this person's friend? Cause I had one coffee date. Because you don't actually, there, you don't trust your own ability to say, [00:45:00] oh hey, like for what, whatever friendship script there is for like, this was a few thanks for these few dates, but I'm good.
Um, that if you don't trust your ability to do that, it would definitely feel safer to just not,
Eva: Right. Yeah. And I think, so like a way to just approach that differently is to say, Hey, like I know, like essentially you turn not, you don't turn into a game. I mean, you kind of do like, this is how I feel about, I think both of us feel about life is that we're like, okay, well then I guess this is, this is the assignment I'm signing, signing up for.
It's not just like making friends. I'm signing up for the like boundaries lesson.
Kyley: Yes,
Eva: And you go into it with that intention of like, well, this is what I'm learning now.
Kyley: Yeah,
Eva: Yeah. But I just wanna drop one more thing. A practical tip is Bumble, b f, f. Have you, have, we talked about this,
Kyley: No.
Eva: Bumble is that dating app.
Apparently they have a version just for friends, and there are like women on there who are also trying to make friends. And I, I haven't successfully, I, I haven't used it [00:46:00] very much because I just know my parameters. I'm just trying to focus on the friendships that I have now rather than like, but anyway, it's like a very, I think it's totally possible to make friends on Bumble v fff.
Kyley: I love that. I, once, when Desi was really little, I found that there was this app called Peanut that's about, it's the same idea of like, like about to try to connect mom friends. And I got very excited and I like, especially because y'all, I met my husband in 2004.
Eva: Mm-hmm.
Kyley: been on a dating app before, so I was like, oh, I'm gonna play this game.
But then it was immediately clear to me that. All these women had also made a profile once and then never gone back. Like Right. It was like people, they just weren't, no one was actually active on it. And so, um,
Eva: about your experience, because my experience is very different from your experience. I have more time. And you are very, you have very little time, and yet somehow you have all these new friends. So like, how the hell did you make that work? Like, that's, that's probably what some people wanna
Kyley: all of the, yes. I think well Covid helped, right? That like starting a business and [00:47:00] uh,
Eva: for some people that would hurt. But you, it helped you. So like I want you to talk about
Kyley: yeah. Well, you know what's interesting? As we were talking, I was realized I was kind of remembering something, which is when I was talking about how it keeps getting easier, oh, this actually feels uncomfortable to say, wow. Aside from maybe elementary school and middle school, I think I have always been liked.
I think people like, But I didn't know that. And as I get older, I realize that people like me, and it is a lot easier to make friends when you realize that the person talking to you actually wants to be your friend and isn't just like passing the time.
Eva: Okay, so I'm 39 years old and I feel like I'm, I was just having that realization just now as I was talking about my friend experience. I didn't have, I didn't have the, I'm glad you said it out loud cuz I was like, oh, I don't think I can say this out loud, but what I realized when I was like, oh, well somehow I've always just managed to have friends, I was like, [00:48:00] maybe I am likable.
Like I will, like, I like really had to have that thought in my head. I was like, oh, maybe like, the reason that was possible was cuz I am like an, you know, an o an okay person and I'm like, anyway, so.
Kyley: to be clear, I don't mean if you're listening to this and you're like, well, I don't have friends, I must not be likable. That's not what I mean. What I mean is like I can, I can look back on moments in my life. Like for example, I moved in Maine. I moved to Maine in high school, and my, my, I was fine, but my, like, I didn't feel like I had f really had friends.
And also I gave a graduation speech. I'd been there for two fucking years and I read like a, I read like a, I got to pick my own poem to read on the stage, right? Like, like my story is that I was kind of a loner, but I was clearly having some kind of a, you know, connection. And similarly, I had this neighbor, we've lived in this house for six years and I had this neighbor [00:49:00] and she was really cool and she like clearly wanted to be my friend.
Like, she would like invite me to do things and I could not like, I couldn't even actually see it as such until she was moving and I was like, oh, you were trying to be my friend, and I couldn't,
Eva: See it. You didn't get,
Kyley: actually even receive it. And so I'm sure that there's also plenty of moments that I felt alone or, or like, or felt fine, but there were people who were like, sh interested in being friends with me, and I just actually couldn't see it as
Eva: that is such a good point. Yeah. Like I think, yeah, like for you listeners out there who are like, I also wanna make new friends. There's probably opportunities out there, but if you don't think, yeah, I don't know, for whatever reason, either you think you're not likable or you can't imagine that someone would wanna like make that effort or you know, you just can't see it.
I think this is the invitation to like, look around your, check out your surroundings and be like, wait, are there actually opportunities here that I'm pushing away somehow? You know, or, [00:50:00] or, or opportunities that I can be more open to, again, coming back to that openness.
Kyley: Yes. Yes, exactly. And it's almost like I've talked about on the show a lot how a, a big part of my journey around safety was asking myself this question, like, what if I were safe? And I feel like another version, I'm just like, what if people liked me?
Eva: Hmm.
Kyley: Right. Just like, again, just entertaining the possibility, not forcing yourself to believe something or because I think when you are lonely, it can, it can feel really hard to imagine that you are liked when you feel lonely.
Eva: Totally, totally. Ugh. So good. Okay, so let's talk about you making friends online, I guess. Like, like, who did, wasn't someone joked, like Kylie's friends with everyone on the, in, on the internet? I didn't someone say that?
Kyley: Yes. Someone has said, I forget who. Yes. Um,
Eva: And like for your birthday you had like this, we had this like gathering of people or just like a collection of like awesome women that were just like, you know, all from the interwebs.[00:51:00]
And it was like really cool to see.
Kyley: Yeah, what she's referring to is that Eva and Catherine. Catherine is
Eva: Catherine led, led the spear on that. Yeah,
Kyley: Catherine and Eva, like coordinated on my birthday one year in Covid. This like Zoom. It was supposed to be like a business meeting for me. Catherine is my, um, shes me, the organizational stuff, the, uh, operation stuff in my business and in my business with Liz.
And, uh, they organized a whole like Zoom call that was like, so a surprise birthday party over Zoom. Like what, what,
Eva: yeah.
Kyley: um,
Eva: it was cool cause it was just like a cool collection of badass women, you know? Yeah.
Kyley: it was. Yes. Yes. Um, I mean, I will be transparent. It's a funny thing because I also, I, I struggle, so, okay. I do. Um, one thing about me is I. Always had a really clear like, sense of connection. [00:52:00] Like there's people that I just feel close to instantly and I have always trusted that. So I might not like know that much about you, but there's a kind of like, like spark that I feel with certain people.
And every single, every single time I have felt that that person, you are one of those people, like that person has turned out to be someone who I feel very close to. Right? And the friendship might be, um, you, you know, it might, it might have a season, it might not be a like long lifelong friendship, but there is a particular kind of like, like spark that I can, that I feel and I'm like, okay, this is my person and I just trust that.
And then there are people who are like, oh, like you're, I work with you and we're, you're also cool and let's get coffee every day cuz this job sucks. Right? Those friends are also great, but it's like a different kind of friendship. Um, and I think. Truthfully, when Covid hit, uh, [00:53:00] I was early in starting this business, I was also deep in the middle of like, you know, pretty intense like inner healing journey. And so, and we were, every, the whole world was online and so I was making relationships with people online, but also like, there wasn't, there was a, there was a lot of me in that because I was like really in on building my business and being on this healing journey. And so I feel like I would show up to interactions with people just with like a lot of my heart.
To your point about open, like I think I was just really open in a lot of those interactions because I don't know, I was just really open in general in that's, does that make
Eva: yeah. It's okay. So, two things that I wanna speak to. One, what you're speaking to right now is, I think this is, we talked about this in the last week's episode with Meg. Uh, we, we were talking about the liminal space, where for you, you're in that space of like, no longer and not yet like, [00:54:00] and that's a sacred, transformative time.
And I think that's a really open time. And I think that's where I am right now too. It's like, you just, like, this is why like when your life is suddenly you're in transition. You know, if you can get, get safe and see that this isn't a problem, then you can actually use this openness as a time to like, create a lot of beautiful things.
Um, so that's the first thing I'll say. And the second thing I'll say is I don't to re just so to remind you what you had told me. Cause I asked you, I straight up asked you, I was like, like, you know, What's your, I didn't say like this, but like, what's your secret, essentially, and you were like, well, I just, I'm in this phase of my life where I'm building my business and and you were like, and I want to, I don't You said, basically you said, being intentional about it, I think is what you said.
You were like, I wanna meet new people who are into what I'm into. So I'm being really intentional about it and I'm like, oh yeah. Like I really, that's really struck me. Cause I'm like, yeah, that's what it is. It's just about being intentional.[00:55:00]
Kyley: yeah. That's, yeah, I remember, I remember that conversation now. Yeah, because I was like, this whole world just feels very lonely and confusing and overwhelming and I will not get through this if I'm actually alone. So, um, but I will also say in the spirit of transparency, at the same time, I actually have a really hard time maintaining friendships in.
Eva: Hmm.
Kyley: Um, time is really complicated for me. And so, um, like staying up to date on me, like staying in regular contact and like up to date on messages with friends is really hard. Like I am All those memes that you see of like my favorite one was one of this, um, raccoon who's like coming out of a trash can that's like that one friend on the group chat
Eva: Yeah, yeah,
Kyley: reemerges.
And I'm like, like the number of people who sent that to me.
Eva: yeah, yeah. Okay. So advice y'all. If you have someone who you adore and you feel a spark with, just go record a podcast with them [00:56:00] then. Then you'll be friends because you'll, it's built
Kyley: get yourself into their calendar every week and Yes, exactly. And um, and so, and that's something that I have been like, um, uh, like trying basically to like work on for a while. I also, you know, Um, have been trying to be really compassionate with myself about that. Cause I'm like, well also if I have two small kids and I'm running a business and I don't, I have built my life with not as much time as I would like.
And so of course I sometimes get, and my business, I love the work that I do so much, it makes me cry. And also it's emotional holding. And so sometimes if I like the thought of like, plopping down at the end of the day and like having deep emotional conversations with like, like doing all the, like men, like the emotional management of like, okay, how are all my friends doing?
Which is a co-dependent behavior. They're not asking me to do that, but that can feel tiring and then I scroll or whatever. So, um, um, because when I was in, when I [00:57:00] was younger and I lived in the city, I would just like go get dinner with these friends.
Eva: right. But what I am hearing though is that, I mean, I don't, I feel like on the spectrum of busy. Of like, oh, maybe our listeners who are also busy, cuz they're, I think the, the combination of like, the people who I know who are the busiest are like moms who are like, are single parents actually, and then also like trying to run a bi, like trying to run a business.
Kyley: Shout out to my friend Vanessa Love, who is a single mom who owns her own business.
Eva: Yeah. Like, yeah. That's kind of like it as busy as you. Well, there, I mean she was very, there's different iterations of this, but what I'm trying to say is like, you're busy, but what I've seen you do is you've, you've weaved in like spaces in your life where you can connect your business with friendship and like, so therefore, even in your busiest moments, you have friends.
So for, if you were like a busy [00:58:00] mom, your thing may not be running your own business, but like Yeah, it's like making the connections in the areas where you have to show up anyway. Like at that, at your, like kids, I don't know, thing that you go to every week, maybe you take them to soccer, like, Make friends with that other soccer mom so that you know you're gonna see them every week.
You know? And like put yourself out there and say, Hey, this is awkward, but like, I wanna be friends. Like, you seem cool. Can we get coffee? You know, like,
Kyley: yes.
Eva: and I feel like a lot of people, you talked about fear of rejection earlier. I think a lot of people wanna make friends.
Kyley: Oh, I'm so glad you said that because, so my kids, my kids have been going to the, well, my kids have been gonna the same school for two years. Desi, for, this is his second year, first year for Birdie. And there's another mom who I think from the very beginning I was like, this woman is very funny and cool, and I would like to be her friend.
Right. And we like bumped onto each other in the coffee line, the, the, like, first week. And I was like, would you be my friend? All right. And, and, And then I like [00:59:00] made over. She was like, oh, we should like get, you know, hang out sometime while the kids are at school. And she would like be friendly but then like, never take me up on it.
And an old me would have totally been like, oh, she's gonna be your friend, that's fine. No big deal. But I have evolved, again, this story of like realizing like, oh, I am actually fundamentally likable and therefore I don't need to internalize interactions. And so there was kind of just an openness there.
And, um, we're totally friends now. And, um,
Eva: was it like you reached out again in the
Kyley: no, just like every once in a while, like every once in a while it's like, not like very, but like, like months would pass and be like, oh, like by the way, let me know if you wanna go for a walk or whatever. We still have never done that. But, uh, Desi's birthday, she brought her two kids.
We talked the whole time. Then she messaged me and was like, oh, hey, do I'm, I'm doing this thing with my kids next weekend. Do you wanna come? And like, anyways, so now we have this friendship, but it's clear that like, Part of like the way that she wants to be friends is that we hang out [01:00:00] with our kids together, which is great.
Eva: what you wanted. At some point you had talked about like, I'm like, did you call this in because we had a whole podcast episode about how you wanted more local mom friends, you
Kyley: exactly. Because like when you take your kids to the tra trampoline park, then you're just standing there, right? Maybe you're jumping, but then other than that, you're just standing there. Right. Or you taking 'em to the playground. So, so basically like, yeah, when her kids are in school, I suspect we haven't discussed this, but like maybe she's just jagged for her two hours by herself and doesn't wanna talk to anybody, but, um, but yeah, by the like openness and not internalizing it and just like, we just kept chit-chatting and then Yeah, like ge very genuinely feel like, oh, like you're my friend and this is fun and I like hanging out with you.
And, um, And, and also like I understand the rhythm, the way in which you wanna be friends, and I'm on board with that, right. Which is like, yeah, we hang out with our kids like mom and each of their two kids. And that's a, you said that's, I, I want that. So, [01:01:00] um, yeah. So yes. To like, don't be afraid.
Eva: Yeah. Don't be afraid. I love the idea of like, not internalizing, you don't have to force either, but this sounded like there was just. You know, an inherent piece of self-love for yourself where you're like, you know, yeah. Like, I'm, I like myself. And so it's not gonna feel awkward to continue to, you know, make a little bit of effort with this
Kyley: Right, right.
Eva: and like, and the openness and also, yeah, the way, if you are limited on, on time, what are you spending your time doing? Even if that's like, I don't know, this is a really morbid example, but, but maybe you have to take like your mom to the hospital every day. Like maybe there's someone who you like, end up sparking a friendship with who's also taking someone else to the hospital.
Every, you know, it's like in, in your environment, look towards your environment to see other people who like are probably longing for connection as well.
Kyley: I think what I'm also hearing you saying is like, make it easy.
Eva: Yeah. Yeah. I'm making
Kyley: it easy, right? Like you're already at the soccer game or you're like, you're already, you know, so I, I like [01:02:00] that. I really like that.
Eva: Um, one more like practical piece of advice that I have for all our dear listeners. Cause I'm sure you've had
Kyley: best. Making it so that we can actually live better lives and not just think about better lives.
Eva: Um, oh, actually, well this is, okay. So Kylie and I are always selling programs and courses, so you should just sign up for our programs and courses because programs and courses are actually another really great way to meet people, which is how you and I became friends, like,
Kyley: Oh my God, I'm so glad you said that because yeah, especially like if it's like a group program, especially if it's led by someone, there's some group programs where the person just like talks at you and that's great. No shade. But if it's a group program that's like built about, it's around community, like safe and secure or alchemy, then um, you'll feel close to those people because you're showing up and being like open-hearted.
And so there's to the point of let it be easy, like roll on into these containers that are [01:03:00] about, like, that are about connection with
Eva: yeah. Totally. So,
Kyley: Also, I would add, sorry, but if your, if your goal is that you want friends, pick a program that's gonna have like around like eight to 12 people don't go, don't go sign up for a program.
I mean, you can, it worked for us. There were like hundreds of
Eva: Well, actually, I don't know because I, so another really good friend of mine now who's gonna be on the podcast in a couple weeks is Victoria Jane, and we were in a program together with like 30 to 40 people. Yeah. But
Kyley: back. I stand
Eva: yeah. But, but, but I will say the, so this is a com, like don't combine in advice here.
It's like, only combined device here is like, sign up for programs if you love to learn anyway, and you're like, okay, whatever. And then when you get into that program, that's again where you were like being intentional and being open. Because the reason I think I'm friends with Victoria is because I just really liked her and I liked her vibe.
And then I mess, like went outta my way to message her and I was like, Hey, like, we just started chatting and then chatting became, you know, Vox Ring. And then Vox Ring became like, we met in real life and we met, we've met in real life a [01:04:00] couple of times, so it's, yeah, courses. I think it's just like, it's just like practical thing.
But um, What else is I gonna say about courses? Oh no, I guess that's it. Yeah, so sign up for our courses because Kylie and I are both about like trying, you know, about creating community in a lot of our work. Yeah.
Kyley: Yes. Yes. That is really important. Um, there
Eva: I know what I was gonna say. Sorry. Sorry. Can I, so the thing I was gonna say is that there's a story around how like, oh, it's so much hard to make friends in a, as an adult. Cause you're not like in college or high school where you're like, whatever you had all that social system built in, but like an adult class is, I think that version of that.
Kyley: Yes,
Eva: Yeah. Okay. That was my point. Sorry, you were gonna say
Kyley: Yeah, I think I also just wanna come back to this myth that you pointed out around like, it's hard to make friends when you're older because I think if you're listening to this podcast, I'm willing to bet that you are someone who is like committed to the process of evolution, in [01:05:00] which case, like you are constantly becoming more of yourself. And why was it so fucking hard to make friends in middle school? Because you were terrified of who, like, of who you were. And you were like, that's like the ultimate period in which we all like are full of self-loathing, right? And so the idea that it's harder, maybe if you're someone who's lived, who is like really committed to self-rejection essentially.
Right? But if you are, um, I don't know. I was reflecting as we were chatting about recording this topic. I was reflecting about how you and Liz Simpson are two of the most important people in my entire world, right? Like, uh, I can't even put into words how much each of you have held space for me in really, really, really profound ways.
And, um, I didn't know either of you, [01:06:00] not that, not that long ago, right? Like, these are like technically new friendships and also they're really fucking old, you know, in the sense of feeling like known and safe and loved and, and I think part of
Eva: in a previous life. Yeah.
Kyley: Yeah, for sure. Um, and I think there's a way that you use the word open a lot, and I think there's a way that, um, Owning who you are and being willing to, I don't know. There's something about like, the more I know myself and the more I know that I am, I don't know how to put this into words. I don't wanna make it trite. I don't think I could have had exactly the kind of friendship that I have with you. Um, and with Liz, when I was 22, I would like would've, I'm sure Ben [01:07:00] Pals, but the particular kind of like. And I had lots and I have had, had been blessed to have many deep and intimate friendships that have lasted decades.
And also there is something particular to me that's like, well, of course I know you now, because now I like am rooted into myself enough to hold the like depth of this friendship, which is just to say, I think friends that you make when you're older have the potential to be a lot fucking a different kind of richness because you are in a richer relationship with yourself.
Eva: oh, oh my God. I'm so happy you're speaking to this 100%. Yeah, like what I'm hearing you say is like, oh, to be a woman who's almost 40, it's like there's a great joy in that like to, to be older and to know yourself than, and then with other women who like are, who know themselves in a way, it's easier, like, It's easier and yeah, it's, I think you use the word [01:08:00] depth it, they just feel more deep cuz you just like get straight to it.
I also think there's something about, you know, it's different when you're a younger woman, unfortunately. It's like, especially like young girl stuff is like, there's like this competition that's like weaved whatever through culture. But now it's like women are just women love women, you know? And like women are supporting women or hopefully you're around women who are all so supportive and if you're not, maybe this is the time to like change all that.
But yeah, I think this is one of the beautiful things about I think getting older too, is like women are just like we've, you and I have talked about this, like we have our friend Rebecca, who she's going through something and, and you know, we kind of just met her and we were there to like support her and she was like, I just love how women come together and just like get each other's backs.
And I'm like, fuck yeah. And I love for that reason. I love being a woman.
Kyley: A and Rebecca's another great example. So Rebecca is Rebecca Altman. Excellent episode. You all definitely would love to go back and listen to that. And Rebecca's another person who like, instantly, I just felt like, oh, I'd fucking [01:09:00] love her. And, and again, it's a thing that, and then I trust that.
And so then, like, I actually have, like, we've had Zoom coffee dates multiple times. Like she's become someone who like, I really love being friends with. And so, yeah, part of it is trusting that, um, yeah. One thing I just like trusting that tug towards someone without, to the point of my mom friend, without putting too much pressure on it or making it mean anything.
Eva: yeah. Yep, yep, yep. One more thing I wanna add that came to me that I think it's an important point as you were speaking about, you know, getting older and evolving, is that if you were someone who's listening to podcasts, like you said, you're, you were like interested or dedicated to your evolution, you're gonna need new friends, like,
Kyley: Oh
Eva: Every, every like different iteration of you with the death and rebirth, a new phase of your life.
Like, you're gonna need new friends, even with motherhood. Like if you are a
Kyley: Oh, especially with motherhood. I, yeah. Or cause another death and iteration. Yeah.
Eva: Yeah, [01:10:00] exactly. Just, or, or you know, when you get into spiritual shit, you're gonna need, you're gonna want some spiritual friends. If you get into cryptocurrency, I don't know, you're gonna want crypto friends.
Right. Like, like, so
Kyley: I really don't wanna see the hell of universe, cryptocurrency, crossover.
Eva: just saying whatever it's, that you're into and you're, whatever you're ev evolving into whether, yeah. Um, it's normal. It's normal. Like, I think that's, sometimes people forget that like, you're gonna, it's, you're gonna have the iterations of yourself and you're gonna sometimes shed some friends.
And so in the process it's helpful to know how to make new friends.
Kyley: You know, I'm mindful of time, but I wonder if we record a part two. That's about like the death of friendships.
Eva: Whoa. Yeah. Okay.
Kyley: I mean, that doesn't feel like, that feels, I, I, I think maybe not, maybe not [01:11:00] exclusively death, but like, but like evolution, right? Because there's so many things. Sometimes there's people that we have loved for a long time and, uh, That friendships like as Right to meet someone when you're five and to still know them.
Like my husband just went and had dinner tonight with a friend that literally, they have been friends since they were like, I don't know, in first grade. Right. Um, and also I've watched their friendship go through all sorts of shifts and shapes and um, um, I did a like movement of like being closer and further apart for anyone who's listening.
Right. Um, and I certainly have a bunch of relationships like those and I think it's,
Eva: Yeah. So I love
Kyley: it's, it's hard. I think it's hard to navigate cause it's so tender.
Eva: Okay. I'm so happy you brought this up. I mean, the way that it's making me feel, my body is like, I'm like, Ooh. But it also makes me feel like this is an important conversation. Yeah. And even [01:12:00] just maybe talking about things that aren't often talked about, but you're right. Like the different iterations of friendships, the past, the ending of some friendships and, um Yes, yes.
100%. Let's, let's, let's do
Kyley: Yeah, cuz I also think one thing I wanna speak to is, you know, people will say like, oh, as you change and you'll, you'll have to shed people. There can be a kind of like, like, um, they're not good enough for you. You're on the ascension. And like, leave those suck sad ss behind
Eva: Yeah, totally. Yeah. Leave them in your dust. Yeah.
Kyley: serves you. Like, okay, no, no shade. But also there's a, I think there's a different thing that can happen that's like, I have tremendous tenderness for this person and also this is not the relationship that. this relationship as it currently stands, isn't serving either of us. And so how do we either figure out together how to make a change or let it go?
Like there's a, I guess kind of like the way you and Adam like really lovingly [01:13:00] had to navigate like, what is this and what is it becoming? And um, and I don't think, I don't know, I don't think there's a lot of conversations about the, like grief and confusion in, um, in friendship. Especially if it's not a like big theatric, well, like you slept with.
Eva: Yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Totally. Because what if it's just people growing apart? You know? It's like I do think about that. I don't know about, well maybe it was different for you in high school, cuz I know you were only, you graduated from high school that you were there for two years but maybe not even high school, college.
Like, you know, we're so young and we are like, we're gonna be friends forever. Do you ever have like, and then, and you think you're gonna be friends forever? You actually think you're gonna be friends forever and then that doesn't happen because life comes in and I remember people telling me that when I was a kid and I was like, that's so depressing.
That's not gonna happen to me. But it's the natural ebb and flow of life like that sometimes you just lose touch with people, I guess is
Kyley: Yes. Right. There's the losing touch, and then there's also, I think, something really, really beautiful about figuring out how to be like, oh, if we met today, we [01:14:00] would not be friends, and yet we are figuring out how to continue to be friends. Right?
Eva: So that's really interesting cuz I'm going on a, on a reunion trip with my girlfriends from back home. Uh, I don't think I mentioned this. We're going, we're going to Malibu and that's just gonna be amazing cuz I've known like these girls since I was in fifth grade.
Kyley: Hmm.
Eva: it's, and our, I think our, definitely our relationships have, has, has ebbed and flowed, but it's just, yeah, it's perfect timing cuz it's, um, me experiencing that now in real time is like keeping up these friendships that have evolved over and over again.
Kyley: Yeah, yeah. So, okay, li listeners, hit us with your friendship, evolution, and breakup questions.
Eva: Yeah. Yeah. Or just like, if you have any more thoughts that you wanna share about making new friends. Yeah. I don't know if you like this episode by the way. Oh wait. Maybe we don't do our joy,
Kyley: Oh yeah. We gotta do our joy.
Eva: Before the draw I'm gonna just do all the plugins. If you like this [01:15:00] episode, if it was helpful in any way, please subscribe.
It really helps. A review helps. A star helps. Or five stars help. Um, yeah.
Kyley: Yeah, don't give us one star unless you're gonna write a really funny review like the, our one star review, which is like, why do these bitches say fuck all the time? That's not what they said, but they didn't complain about the swearing.
Eva: yeah. Um, that really helps. And also, yeah, follow me and Kylie in all the things if you don't
Kyley: You know, bef I wanna also say, sorry I cut you off. Eva is I am Are you, are you? I am Li Eva, and I'm Caldwell on Instagram. Um, I wanna say one more thing before we do joy, which is, if you are lonely, it can feel like you're wrong. If you're lonely, it can feel like you've done something wrong. You are unlovable, you are un like being lonely is a really.
Like many uncomfortable emotions. It's not, it's a, it can be a tricky place to be. [01:16:00] And I
Eva: fucks, it fucks with your perspective.
Kyley: and I just wanna fucking normalize how much like this whole podcast has been, like, one of the themes is like, Kylie makes friends easily. And I have been so fucking lonely the past few years. Like so many moments where I have realized like, oh, I am like heart shatteringly lonely, right?
And so, like, even as I have these incredible and tremendous friendships, right? Like yes, and the world is full, life is full of paradox. And so, um, if you are listening to this and your lonely, I just wanna offer that you don't need to internalize that your loneliness has anything to do with you being wrong or needing to fix anything.
But you're a human coming out of a pandemic
Eva: Yeah. Mm-hmm.
Kyley: in like a very confusing moment in time.
Eva: Or not just the pandemic, but our whole society is really isolating and disconnecting. And my brother was like, yeah, you millennials are so isolated, is what he said. And I was like, damn, I guess we are.
Kyley: [01:17:00] Yeah. Yeah. And like, you know, late stage capitalism, like you get to the end of the day, sometimes you're fucking tired to go like, make a friend. You. All you have is like capacity to scroll and watch a TV show or whatever the case may be. And I just wanna offer like your beautiful point all the time, Eva, about the second arrow.
Like, if you are lonely, you, that is a, there was real tenderness there. And also that doesn't mean that you're wrong or doing anything wrong.
Eva: Yeah. I'm, uh, thank you for speaking to that. I feel like we had been amiss to not to have this whole conversation without speaking to that, because it really is like the society that we're it, that it's the word existing in everything isn't happening on social media, and so it gives us this false sense of being connected when we're not. Yeah,
Kyley: And if you are, again, if you're listening to this show, I'm sure you're someone who's committed to your evolution, which means you're going through phases where you're like willingly waiting into and dredging up some [01:18:00] like complicated emotions. And that might also make you feel lonely in set, right?
If you're like, you know, you might be, um, yeah, you might be feeling some feelings and there might be loneliness in there and like
Eva: Yeah. Yeah,
Kyley: yeah.
Eva: it's totally normal.
Kyley: yeah. Yeah.
Eva: Okay.
Kyley: Um, okay. What's bringing you joy?
Eva: Ooh. Yeah, this was con this conversation was rich. I loved it. Um, what's bringing me joy? Oh yeah. Okay. So, uh, I'll try to keep it short cuz it's already been a long podcast, but it is a good, just a fun story. Uh, what is the story? The story is that I had this whole schedule today of like things and it got interrupted with our neighbor who, um, like basically was doing us a favor, but like didn't tell us that he was coming.
Cause he just totally surprised me and I was like, oh, so this is how I have to, we have to do [01:19:00] this thing now. And I was annoyed because I was. His texting skills weren't great, and he like, didn't really explain to me that he was coming over now. So I just felt like my, my day was hijacked in a way. Um, but earlier I had done this meditation about just like, kind of, kind of this, like this being open and also like just trusting.
Like instead of being, I wrote this thing down, which I thought was inspired on, I talked about how my, I had all these daunting preferences, like preferences feel like they're a good thing, but actually sometimes they just feel so fucking daunting. Cause I'm just like attached to things being a certain way.
And so whatever, I was just like open. I was open. I was like, okay, well I, whenever you just got roll with the go with the flow. And I ended up just having the best conversation with this guy and his friend and I had to give them a ride somewhere. And then we got to this house and it was like this farm and he had a pig and horses and two dogs and it was like this beautiful piece of land.
It was like, it's kinda like these two older hippie guys. And [01:20:00] they were just like, cool. And I, and it just, I, my, my spirit was just lifted immediately. Cause I was like, I was open to this experience and I trusted and what came in, and also I gotta hang out with a pig and I love pigs. And it was just like very joyful.
So that was my joy. Yeah,
Kyley: I love this also because you have set this intention around. Adventure and like the adventure requires us to be like, okay, plans out the window. I'm going to see a pig. You know? And I, so I love you getting
Eva: which is not my natural, like, it's hard. That's hard for me. I'm such a planner and I like gotta give myself grace for like, me being that way, um, because I judge that. But yes, like that's, that's the lesson I'm learning, I guess you could say.
Kyley: Also, I really love your planner ability.
Eva: I like it too, by the, I
Kyley: Oh, okay. All right. All right. Just making sure. I was like, do you need me to list off all the ways in which there's like a real compassionate holding in the way that I don't know.
Eva: Oh, [01:21:00] thank you. I like it too. It's just I don't, you know, everything in moderation, I think. Yeah. Okay.
Kyley: That's fair.
Eva: What is your joy for today?
Kyley: Um, I had the cutest date with my kids today. So I picked them up from school, first of all, I mean, full transparency. Birdie cried the entire way to school because she didn't wanna go to school. Um, so I literally had to put her in the car. You know, my kids go to outdoor school, so I had to put her in the car without any of her gear on and was like, I guess you're putting it in the dri in the parking lot.
And we the driveway and we get there. Um, of course she had a great day at school. It was totally fine.
Eva: but one of those mornings though it sounds like.
Kyley: Yes. Um, uh, but you know, to the point of loneliness, like I don't wanna paint an overly rosy story of like what motherhood, bliss. So it was a rough morning and, and I picked up my kids from school. Of course Birdie was very happy and Desi had this like paper bowl full of moss that he had made that he said was a bird's nest.
And I was like, that's so cool. And then all of a sudden I was like, said something about a terrarium [01:22:00] and I was like, can go home and make terrariums because I had this collection of glass jars, like any good witch that didn't, I hadn't done anything with yet.
Eva: Yeah.
Kyley: And, uh, so we stopped at the, we stopped at the, at like a little flower shop and bought potting soil.
And Desi was like obsessed with this pan, with this plant of panes. I'm showing Eva, everybody.
Eva: Beautiful.
Kyley: And he was like, can we get, he was like, like Carrie did, he carried it in his lap, the whole car ride home. And my grandmother had panties outside of her. They remind me of her. Anyway, we made Terrariums. They were super fun.
Eva: cool.
Kyley: And then
Eva: one. I've always wanted to make one, but that
Kyley: they were, the centerpieces at my wedding were terrariums.
Eva: my God, that's so, I love, that's so
Kyley: Yeah. My aunt was like, she was going through a phase that was like her, like favorite pastime. So I was like, will you? I don't give a shit about [01:23:00] centerpieces, but also tours are very cool.
Eva: But that also sounds like a really awesome, fun like project to have with your kid.
Kyley: It was so fun, and they were super into it. And then we washed our hands very thoroughly. And then we made chocolate chip cookies.
Eva: Oh, yeah. Sounds like a dream
Kyley: was just like, really? And then I had a two hour business meeting with Liz, and now we're recording. Like, I, like, everything has been accomplished that I
Eva: you killed today
Kyley: I did kill
Eva: Yeah. Wow. Even with a rough start, you know?
Kyley: exactly, exactly. So feeling jazzed about, I made it, I set the intention recently to try to like be really, to, to be intentional about like one activity with my kids every day, even if it's like, A 15 minute puzzle, right? Like, cuz I do this thing where I put the stakes to be like too high.
And so I've been having a re a really, really great time. Like, okay, we did that. We, we played [01:24:00] that game for 10 minutes and that was really fun. And that was like our like, kind of quote unquote special moment or whatever. Um, and that has been bringing me, that practice has bring me a lot of joy and then also feels like it gave birth to a day like today that had so many activities.
So, and then tomorrow we'll be back to like a 10 minute puzzle, but
Eva: I mean, it seems to be working. It sounds really nice, and just, yeah, letting yourself off the hook for not having to be like this perfect, you know, whatever two hour thing every day sounds very healthy and because it's sustainable.
Kyley: Yes, yes. All right, listeners, we love you. Thank you.
Eva: Bye.