Eva is in Taiwan, caring for aging parents and caught in the intensity of loving them, loving herself, sorting out the care they need while trying to figure out what the hell she needs, too. In Eva fashion, she comes to this pressure-cooker of a situation and asks "what the hell even IS love, really?" Spolier alert: Kyley & Eva both cry by the end.
Eva is in Taiwan, caring for aging parents and caught in the intensity of loving them, loving herself, sorting out the care they need while trying to figure out what the hell she needs, too. In Eva fashion, she comes to this pressure-cooker of a situation and asks "what the hell even IS love, really?"
Spoiler alert: Kyley & Eva both cry by the end.
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[00:00:00]
Eva: Kylie, my dear, I need your help. I've been wanting to have this conversation with you for a while. The question that I've brought to the table is what even is love really? And it's a big question. And for listeners, I want, to you to know the context is like, I'm coming at this really from a spiritual lens.
Eva: I'm not talking about, I think there's different flavors of love, which we'll discuss friendship and romantic and familiar, you know, and, and then, but I think I'm really talking about like [00:01:00] capital L universal love, like, what does it mean to like, really love? And This is really alive for me right now because I am back in Taiwan and for people who've been, for people who've been listening for a long time, you know, but also for new people, I will, the context is that, um, my mom has basically been sick my entire life.
Eva: She's also an alcoholic, mentally ill, like all of these things. Um, and my dad is now also in the hospital. So there's just like a lot of health stuff going on. Um, And I'm having a really hard time. Like, that's what's happening. I'm having a hard time
Eva: specifically, specifically around my mom. Like, what does it mean to love somebody who is, um, Like, really fucking challenging. Like, basically, my mom is like my origin story. You know what I mean? Like, she's the reason I'm into spirituality. Like, she's the person who's my greatest teacher, as you might, you know, some might say.[00:02:00]
Eva: And, it's, we have this really ridiculous situation of, like, push pull. Like, I love her to a million fucking pieces. Like, I love her so much. In some ways, she's the person I love the most, in some ways. And then she, no one else drives me as fucking crazy. freakishly insane and triggers me more than her. And it's like, it's hard cause she is a difficult, difficult person.
Eva: And she's also sick. Like she's not able to, you know, she's disabled. She's got all this stuff going on. And on top of this is that I think this came up really loud for me when last year I moved to Brazil and I entered into what some might, what I would describe as possibly the most idyllic. scenario that ever existed beyond my wildest dreams.
Eva: And, and, um, I think I, the topic came up that I was contending with is like, [00:03:00] I'm in this place where now I really have to think about parental care. It's like a new, it's like the most common thing. Everyone reaches it at some point, but it's new for me. And I think it's new for maybe, I think I'm also reaching it earlier than most of my friends.
Eva: And so there's this, I'm contending with. How do I hold all of this, like? Does I've just created a life now I've set up myself a life where like, I have this beautiful life in Brazil that I love more than anything. And also I have family who are sick, who are literally across the world. It's a 42 hour fucking plane ride to Taiwan from Brazil.
Kyley: Two hours, 14 hours. I remember the last time from Taiwan to Brazil and it was like, yeah, it was nuts.
Eva: Nuts. And also just like, yeah. And just trying to understand what does it mean? to love? Is it sacrifice? Is it being a dutiful, there's, for me, there's a lot of Asian cultural things, you know, like, is it, I don't know, familial [00:04:00] piety and being a dutiful daughter and, and I was meditating one day in Brazil and suddenly for some reason, it was very quick, but it was very poignant.
Eva: I was just meditating and I just realized like, I don't think I have any idea what love really is. Like, I think I've been taught. what love is through culture and what my parents said it was. And then also let's not even, and then I can't even get us started on what, how we're confused about what romantic love is, is because I think what we see in pop culture and the movies.
Eva: And I was like, I don't know if I know what love is, which was great because it was an, I don't know. And I don't know to me is always like the most open place, right? Open and creative and available place. And it's like, so it's been, so just open this whole thing for me where I'm just like, more of an exploration.
Eva: Like, what is really love? One last thing I'll add about all this is this also came up really loudly while I was on retreats over the summer,
Eva: you know, because I want to give examples of, I [00:05:00] think, how we get distorted, like what love is. And, you know, there's all this stuff that comes up about the suffering that's going on in the world and like what's happening in Palestine and like what happens when there's like, you know, terrible shit happening in the world and people are truly suffering.
Eva: And this topic, what I saw really clearly is like, Oh, we, It's like, if we don't suffer with other people who are suffering, it's like we think that we're bad, or somehow that's wrong. we have to show that we love people by suffering with them. And that's how we show love. And I was like, and I think we're just different from empathy.
Eva: I think you can be empathetic, but I actually think a lot of us are feeling, I feel bad. They're like, if I'm not suffering with you, I feel bad. I feel like I'm not in it with you. And that's how I'm supposed to express love. And that's why a lot of us, I think, are also afraid of being free. Or like this, like being really un, you know, like [00:06:00] unfilterly joyful, joyful, because then I'm not suffering with people.
Eva: And so those are all different ways in which, you know, I'm questioning love, looking at love. And I just said a lot and I passed the baton to you.
Kyley: I take it willingly like Snoop Dogg and that Olympic torch.
Eva: Nice.
Kyley: Um, I mean, what is like rich tapestry of kind of like, what the fuck are we even doing? Kind of questions that you're asking.
Kyley: I love everything you're posing. Posing. Um, and.
Kyley: I want to acknowledge a couple of things like I want to start like sorting like, like my kids get really excited to sort their candy, right?
Eva: Yes, please help me sort because I literally just dropped like five different things,
Kyley: like put things into piles and then be like, okay, now let's look first. Let's look at the skittles [00:07:00] and then we'll go over to the like M& M packets.
Kyley: Um, because he was so cute the other day. He literally was like, I was like, yeah, He he'd sorted a bunch of candy and I was like, okay, time to clean up for dinner and he goes, can we leave this here? I'm really proud of it.
Eva: Oh, cute.
Kyley: Um, so I think there's the question of, like, basically, like, what does loving look like and feel like?
Kyley: With your parents and yourself right now, I, and I, you know, you're asking with this spiritual lens, but I think there's also a real material aspect to this question, right? It's like, how do I feel? How do I act during the day? If I'm in integrity with love, right? Yes. Um, and. And I think the, I think in there is this question of like, how do I stand?
Kyley: How can I be in integrity with love towards myself, towards my parents, towards each of my parents? Yes,
Eva: yes.
Kyley: Okay.
Eva: Well, I think that, [00:08:00] yes. So, so yes, I love that you're pointing to like, the real everyday aspect of this, like with my parents and material, but the, the also bigger, it's not an existential question.
Eva: I think it's more of like a social question that we can all relate to because I do want, I, you know, I mean, I love making things relatable. And I think the question here is, what does love look like? I think, I think that question of what does love look like or what is love is particularly loud or it's going to be loud for each and every single one of us when it comes to loving people who are challenging specifically.
Eva: Because we don't tend to ask this question when it's easy to love somebody. It's like, I don't even have to like, it's not that we don't ask it, but it's more, it's not a challenge. There's no challenge there. But I even think like parenthood is like a really good example. Like I keep relating my experience to parenthood because I think there's also something that happens here with parents that I want to hear more about from you.
Eva: Like, I think, I think parenthood, Probably does teach people something about [00:09:00] like some type of big, ultimate love. And also that can be really challenging too, about what that fucking looks like. Oh
Kyley: yeah, right. If anyone who tells you that parenting isn't challenging, it's a fucking liar. No one says
Eva: parenting isn't challenging.
Eva: Yeah.
Kyley: Right. I mean, like, right. So to tie it back to your point about like, um, challenge, you're talking about challenging people, but then I was like looking off into the distance.
Eva: Or challenging situations. Yeah.
Kyley: Yeah. But I was thinking like, You know, okay, so my husband and I have been together for 20 years, and he, I don't find him a challenging person at all.
Kyley: I'm a big fan,
Kyley: but I, I do ask myself, like, what is love? Like, to really
Eva: be
Kyley: my best self in the relationship, there is a constant invitation to return to, like, what is love here? And. It is, it's easy. It is an, it is a relationship with a lot [00:10:00] of ease, but there's also all sorts of ways in which I'm not actually in integrity with love
Eva: in any of
Kyley: my relationships, even if they're, like, more easy, really easy.
Kyley: So. Anyway, pardon me, I to go down that whole rabbit hole, particularly, but
Eva: No, I think you're, I think you're making a good point. Yeah, I think, because I do want to say, like, even with Tom, someone who I love infinitely, I'm being challenged in the best way, actually, to, to, to explore what even really is love.
Eva: Like, it's a big question. And like, some of my,
Kyley: and some of the, like, challenge, I actually think I talked about this on an earlier episode this season, some of, some of the challenge of my marriage recently has been Will you let yourself receive how much your husband really fucking loves you?
Eva: Like just
Kyley: emotionally in your heart, will you let it all the way in that he really, really, really, really loves you?
Kyley: And my heart has been like, uh, a little bit, just a little bit. Yeah. So I don't want to take away from your [00:11:00] question. Cause I think it's really rich. And I think a lot of people can relate to this question of like, how do you show up in love to people who are challenging? But I do think even in quote unquote, easier relationships, they're still rich.
Kyley: That's not unrelated to what we'll talk about here.
Eva: Yeah. Thank you for that clarification. I agree.
Kyley: And I kind of want to take all the other questions that you brought up, which are beautiful and rich and could each be their own podcast and just shove them all the way to the side for a minute.
Eva: Love it.
Eva: Thank you.
Kyley: And in part because there's a million different things we could, a million paths to go down, but also because sometimes I think when we're trying to grapple with something that's like really emotionally messy and maybe makes us feel like we're 16 again, one of the ways that we, but we're also trying to be our like best selves, I think there's sometimes this way in which we like cast out into the like wider collective cultural narratives.
Kyley: That's a, a slight [00:12:00] way of like disassociating or disconnecting, like you're trying, it's like a way of trying to engage with the material while kind of also stepping back from the material. Do you understand what I'm speaking to?
Eva: Yes, I do. I do. And I have. Yes. Um, and
Kyley: I don't think you're doing it in like a super, like avoided
Eva: type of way.
Eva: Yeah, yeah. No. Yeah. I think, well, it's like. To add to that, I think I agree. And I, it's not that I don't, cause like all the reason I do that is because there's like genuine interest there for me, you know, it's like, I do this thing where I'm like, what am I experiencing? And then what does this mean about the world and all that stuff?
Eva: But what I'm hearing you say, which I do think is happening is like, then I intellectualize it rather than go to like, where's the real pain here? Like, what is like, what is really happening? And what's happening is that I am having a really fucking hard time because I'm entering a new phase of my life where I am needing to figure out parental care for a very tricky situation because, um, [00:13:00] yeah, for all, for all, for all this context that I haven't even mentioned yet, like my, like the fact that my parents are separated, recently got separated last, they got separated last year at the age of like 70.
Eva: So if you were to
Kyley: like, if you were to like unroll, I just got the mental image of like the town friar with the like bulletin and the like reasons why Eva's Parental situation, parental care situation in Taiwan is complicated and the bottom of the scroll just like drops and like rolls across the town.
Kyley: It's a long list, is what I'm trying to say, right?
Eva: Yes, yes,
Kyley: yes. Um, so, okay, so if we've kind of boundaried, like put a spotlight on the like hottest piece,
Kyley: I want to ask you to speak to what feels hard.
Eva: Oh my god. Yes. [00:14:00] Okay. What feels hard? Where do I even begin? One thing that feels really hard is watching my mother suffer and the discomfort that that brings me. Um, and not like feeling genuine confusion about what my role is in this. Like meaning, My mother has a tendency to be a user.
Eva: I mean, she's an addict, right? So she will just like take and take and take and take and take. And so I think part of my, yeah, also what's hard is like, I don't really know what my lesson is here. Like part of my lesson is like, has been my entire life of like having boundaries. Um, but sometimes I think I create boundaries that are so rigid that It creates this disconnection.
Eva: It's also like, it's almost like my heart is cold because I need to protect myself, but it don't, I don't think it's giving me the desired result that I want. You know [00:15:00] what I mean?
Kyley: I do. And as someone who's done a lot of work with her Boundary to heart, you can't turn it off. You can't just say this isn't serving me.
Kyley: So boundaries like go away. Like you, you,
Kyley: You obviously can, like, heal the boundariness, but it's serving a purpose, even if it's not giving you the desired result, like, I guess I'm trying to speak to is the part of you that sees that it's inconvenient and causing suffering can't override, isn't like a system override button, right? That there is a protective mechanism in place and the cold, but the, what you described as coldness or this boundariness, it is causing suffering and also some part of you really fucking think she needs it.
Kyley: Y
Eva: you mean the boundary? Some part of me thinks that boundary
Kyley: or
Eva: I think that I need it.
Kyley: Yeah. Yeah. That's, oh yeah.
Eva: Yes. Yeah, yeah, yeah. For, yes. Yes. But I think there are, this is an ever learning ongoing process for me. Like there are, [00:16:00] um,
Eva: ' cause I think the point of a, a good boundary is it actually creates space for you to then act, show up. Like that's the whole point. It's like, so then, so that you can show up the way that you want to, and I don't know. if these boundaries are doing that for me. I mean, there's a lot of different things.
Eva: It's like, it's like protection, but you know what I mean? It's kind of like, if I put distance between someone who's really toxic, maybe not talk to someone who is challenging for me, but I still want to be their friend, that distance actually makes it so like, I don't, I may not talk to you every day, but because there's distance, then I can show up for you, like once a month.
Eva: Do you know what I mean?
Kyley: Yes, I do. I absolutely do.
Eva: And I don't, yeah. Anyway, so. I'm sure there's more that we can say about this, but I want to, like, continue answering your questions. So, um, and what's hard is, yeah, the part about, like, watching people that you love suffer and trying to discern, um, [00:17:00] If that is actually love.
Eva: And I have, and again, I'm doing the intellectualizing universal thing, but I'm gonna do it anyway. Cause I think it's helpful. This comes up a lot in like Al Anon, AA, like alcohol, you know, whatever groups. It's like so common. Like the parent will have a child who's an addict. And they have to like totally cut them off and let them live on the street and like not welcome them back into the house because otherwise you're enabling them.
Eva: And the parent has to do this like really wretchedly hard thing of like the child who you brought into the world. Like I, you know, I've met, you know, I have friends who have had this experience. Like they have to allow their kids to be homeless and choose if they're going to live or die. Like that's gotta be one of the hardest fucking situations in the world.
Eva: And it's like, is that love? Because, because I don't think love is enabling, you know what I mean?
Kyley: Okay. I'm gonna pause you. I don't think that was a, oh, I just got some kind of tears. I don't think that was an arbitrary example, because I think that's a little bit of what these things feel like for you with your mom.
Kyley: Oh, no,
Eva: no, no. That is also 100 percent what I have [00:18:00] had experienced before my life. Like she's threatened suicide and I've had to just be like, okay, I can't, like, I've had to just be like, Multiple times be like, if you're going to kill yourself, like, sorry, suicide warning, but like, if that's your choice, yeah, yeah, that's your choice.
Eva: And I have had to do the very, it's so hard. One of the hardest things I've ever done in my life to be walk away from that situation and be and, and, and recognize that, like, I'm not responsible for that. And which is really fucking hard because had she actually done it, who knows, I might be in therapy for 10 years being like, Oh, it was my fault because I, you know, so yes, I've had very much personal experience with that, but, but I just want to give all these examples of how, it's like a tricky question of like, what is love in that situation?
Kyley: Okay. I know you've had a lot, you've had experiences with that in the past and. I think that's actually very alive right now.
Eva: Right.
Kyley: And, and I, I think maybe some of even the like part of you who's doing a great [00:19:00] job at intellectualizing, which you're all like, you're not only intellectualizing, right. But actually might be dancing around.
Kyley: The memory of that, and also the way in which that is actually very alive right now, perhaps not because your mom is threatening her life in the same way, but in other ways, because she's maybe rejecting care or is like,
Eva: yes, the kind
Kyley: of inherent instability to her and, and, um, and so this, the stakes are high.
Eva: Yeah. Yes. And I,
Kyley: and I, I think, I think you don't feel safe.
Kyley: Not, I mean, the part, like, obviously parts of you do, but I think there's a part of you who is unsafe because of this, like, you know, on one level, there's instability around your mother's, like, survival, which is an old wound and also, [00:20:00] like, new and fresh. And the reason I'm putting my finger on this is because There, I think there's this part of you who's like, really afraid, afraid of what would happen, afraid of the way that you, like you said, I'd be, how long would I have to be in therapy processing if it was my fault?
Kyley: This is not, this is also like,
Eva: Now,
Kyley: even if he goes back to Brazil and her mom falls down this right, like, yes, this is the even now who's also,
Eva: that is, that is essentially the situation that I am contending with and, and for background, um, yeah, we've, we've tried to get my mother care in all sorts of ways.
Eva: And she is, uh, rejected it. And also so challenging that most of the people she's go, she goes through people in her life, like Kleenex, it's like, it's really hard for people to stick around. Um, even when you throw like money at the situation. People are like, you can't pay me enough to do this shit. So, [00:21:00] um, yeah, that is what I'm contending with.
Eva: Like if I, if I leave,
Eva: uh, yeah, if I leave, um, what, what makes, what feels safe, what feels unsafe is that this terrible thing might happen to this person that I love. and I will feel responsible. But there's this tricky thing that's happening. And I'm really curious to know what you think about this, because
Eva: I think there's almost something, I don't want to like put myself down or like make my feelings small. I don't want to trivialize what I'm experiencing, but I also want to speak to how I think there is something selfish about the fact that I want my mom to have care, not so that she can feel better, but so that I can feel better.
Eva: And I think there's something,
Eva: I don't know if I'm like using that against myself, but yes, but it's [00:22:00] also true. Like if I just let her live her life and be fucking free, maybe that's love. Okay.
Kyley: I think,
Kyley: I think you, Hold on, let me collect my thoughts. I know there's so much going on here.
Eva: I keep coming at you with just more shit. Okay,
Kyley: I think you're. model of love that's getting activated right now. Cause I also think we all have lots of different models of love, right?
Kyley: So the, and so the model of love is getting activated right now, especially about as it relates to your relationship with you and your mom does not have room for you. Because you're essentially to use this just moment, just now as an example, you're essentially being really hard on yourself for being selfish.
Kyley: Like. Oh, I want my mom to have care because I don't want her to be in suffering and I want her to [00:23:00] be safe and also because I don't want to fucking worry about her. And then immediately, but that's like, but you're like, I have this terrible confession to make. And I thought you were going to say a really different thing.
Kyley: And your terrible confession was it's I'm kind of selfish because I want it for me. Like, no, she want it for you. Like, why does any parent want a babysitter for fucking the right for the parent? Like,
Eva: yeah, but, but okay, good. Go ahead. I'll let you finish.
Kyley: Jump in.
Eva: I actually, like, think that's a fucked up way to live life.
Eva: Like, this is what I mean when I ask the question of, like, what is actually love? I think love is what if I just let people be exactly as they are, whoever they are, however they are, without trying to change them for my comfort. Like, unconditional love. Even if that means she dies early, because Because that's just, [00:24:00] that was her choice, essentially.
Eva: And because death is a living problem. Death is not, you know what I mean? Like, it sucks. This is also brought up, like, this whole conversation could lead to a whole other episode about mortality because I've been thinking so much about life and death. Yeah. But But life is, it's, it's, it's, by the way, let me just be clear.
Eva: It's okay that I want her to be safe for me. I get that. I really get that. But I think there's something deeper here that I'm questioning of like, her life is not my business. Her life is God's business. And if her and God decide that she needs to exit at some early time or that she needs to fall down and knock her head and whatever, and then like be paralyzed or whatever, that's like, it's almost Who am I to control that because I don't want to be left with my own suffering around that.
Kyley: Yes. I feel a little vicious. [00:25:00] Be vicious. Because I, what I want to say is I think you're being a liar. Oh, all right. Let's go. Um, obviously said was the ultimate adoration and love in the world because If that was really okay, you would be in Brazil with your cutie pie boyfriend, right? If that was, if what was okay.
Kyley: It was really okay that it wasn't your job to take care of your mom. You weren't actually her caretaker. If you really truly believed it is not my job. I, she is free to live her life as she wants to live it. And I don't actually need to like, try to manage all this care. Um, I'm going to let her do her own thing.
Kyley: You would be in Brazil right now,
Eva: right? Well, technically I am going back to Brazil. But I think what you're asking is like, why am I even here? But anyways, actually, that's not even what you're asking. No, no, no, sorry. I hear what you're saying. You're saying if that was true. And I think that's what I'm exploring.
Eva: Like, could that be true for me? [00:26:00] Like, that's what I'm, that's like, that's what I'm asking. Like, that's like, yeah, I think it might be true. And that's what I'm contending with and I keep going back and forth and back and forth But I come back to this place of the caretaker caretaker caretaker because that's what i've been told is right And if I didn't do that, I almost feel like all of society also would be like, whoa That's real fucked up eva Like you're just gonna let your mom like leave and you know and so i've also been contending with like so much of like So much of also my relationship, especially in Taiwan, is caring about what people think.
Eva: Because, because I'm like, there's a lot of input from people all around me about what, like, my mother can be difficult for everybody. And I think people have thoughts, I'll just say, about what, what I should be doing and what, what care she needs. And if I was just like, nope, I'm not, I'm just gonna let this go the way.
Eva: that life wants it to go. And I'm going to go back to Brazil. Like, can I, it's almost like, can [00:27:00] I get myself there? Not from a place of force or farce. It's like, can I actually, that's almost something it feels like. I know it sounds ass backwards, but it's almost like I want to experience that degree of love.
Eva: That's what that feels like.
Kyley: Yes. I love all of this. I love what you're saying. And I love that you're grappling with this.
Kyley: And I think the thing that I keep wanting to poke at
Kyley: is what I said a moment ago. I think that there isn't enough love for you in this model, right? Cause like we're talking a lot about like your mom's free to like, what if loving her was that she was free? Like, but then I'm, but it's selfish. Like, right. And even though you held that self just with compassion, you're like, Oh, well, my motivation is selfish.
Kyley: And, and even the model of freedom is about like, I'm gonna love you enough to set yourself free, there's, and in that you're actually kind of like, denigrating isn't the right word, but you're like, you're letting go of [00:28:00] and, and, and letting not be prioritized your desire for her safety.
Eva: But you're also not
Kyley: giving yourself the same space to like.
Kyley: Okay, you know what? Like, basically, there's a model here that you could be like, we are both so, these beautiful women who are free to live our lives on our own terms. Yours is here in Taiwan, where you burn through caretakers. Mine is in Brazil with my cutie pie boyfriend. I love you, mom. Right? But, or, or there's something else, right?
Kyley: Or it's like, your safety is really important to me. And And I don't want to live in a world where I have to grapple with the guilt and shame and worry and fear, and so I am going to prioritize your safety as a way of loving you and as a way for loving me. Again, that also is a censoring of, like, you and her.
Kyley: And what I'm hearing is a lot of, like, centering of your mom's safety and like kind of putting your need for her safety a little bit down again [00:29:00] with compassion but still a little bit down and elevating her deservedness for freedom without really letting your
Eva: deservedness for freedom be equally important
Kyley: be equally important
Eva: okay so good kaylee wow you did that was amazing i'm
Kyley: doing
Eva: a little i'm doing a little shimmy dance
Kyley: yeah you're shaking
Eva: your shoulders yeah exactly i'm like wow you just like Yeah, really took everything that I said and somehow, sometimes you just really are able to, I don't know, boil things down into very clear.
Kyley: I told a client the other day, if anyone who knows me knows that I am not an organized person, and I was like, oh, the only thing I actually care about organizing is ideas. Like that's my, all of my organization ability goes to like creating maps.
Eva: Yes.
Kyley: And you're very good at
Eva: it. You're very good at it.
Kyley: Okay.
Kyley: That's why my house is a mess. Okay. So,
Eva: but, so I think, I think you're right. Like all of this focus is about what is love for my mom. [00:30:00] Because again, I think that is kind of like what the question was. I think what you're also asking is okay, but what's also love for myself. And I actually think that the same fucking thing, the solution is the same fucking thing.
Eva: And that's why what you're pointing to is like, I also, so. What I just said, all of the stuff I just said, I don't know, five minutes ago about how maybe love for her is just like letting her live her life however she chooses to. Um, even if it means that she might get hurt and then I will suffer. I think what if love for me is also letting her live her life however the fuck she wants to and also me learning to tend to that suffering because I actually think it is driving me fucking bananas and bonkers.
Eva: It's unkind to me to be like, let me try and figure out a situation where my mom will never get hurt or never die and never, nothing bad will ever happen to her. Like, I think that's what's, that's what I'm contending with. I'm coming up against a wall. I keep thinking the good thing for me to [00:31:00] do is to protect the shit out of her, or whatever, get her care, whatever, so that nothing bad happens to her.
Eva: But I'm like, that's what I mean when I say it's unkind to her and to me, because I am trying to protect her. Force and manipulate and control something. It's like, almost I want to put her in a little cage. Okay, let me make sure that you're in this cage so like, I never, I never have to worry. And that sucks for me.
Eva: That sucks for me too. And maybe love for myself is the same thing where I go to Brazil and I will have to contend with the fear that something terrible will happen to her. And, Maybe love is actually tending to that part, not the part about being like, let me just make sure that nothing ever happens to you.
Eva: And that is like, that's what I mean is so fucking scary. And it's not different from parenthood.
Kyley: No, it's not. I mean, I'm thinking about parenthood as you're giving this example. I think one of the things that's hard that a lot of people talk about in caretaking is like, My kids get more and more independent, generally speaking.
Kyley: Right. And, and your mom and dad are going to get less and less [00:32:00] independent. So there's an, there's an inverse. Yeah, that's true. Right. That's true. Um, and that my job as a mother is like, yeah, like, you know, my kids have, have a lot of big feelings. They've had a recording this at the end of October. Like they've had a lot of feelings about school, both of them.
Kyley: And there's been a lot of like, yeah. Holding space and managing and processing that transition and also my job is to like help them be out in the world. So even though they're out there like, facing discomfort, you know, part of it's advocating for them, part of it's making sure they're in the right school, but part of it is also helping them essentially figure out how to love themselves when things hurt,
Eva: which,
Kyley: uh,
Eva: the worst.
Kyley: And so that makes me think about how
Kyley: it is unrealistic. It is unkind because it's unrealistic that to think that your job is [00:33:00] in any way about like kind of preventing bad things from happening to her.
Eva: Yeah, but it's also more unrealistic to actually prevent bad things to happen for her. And that's what, yeah.
Kyley: And maybe your mom as a particular figure makes this extra challenging,
Kyley: but I think like if someone's in hospice, that level of care is like my, you know, the love that's about managing someone's comfort, right? When someone enters hospice, it's like, you're not trying to cure them. You're like, you're not going to do surgery. It's just like, let's just manage your comfort.
Eva: Mm hmm.
Kyley: And. And I think one of the things that might be Tricky for you, and part of this process feels like it's maybe about figuring out, like, what is the intent, like, what is, yes, you can't keep her in a cage, it's actually, it's not possible, there is a kind of manipulation to it that you're recognizing, it's unkind to both of you, because it's not fucking possible, [00:34:00] and so there is one option to do, like, a hands off, like, I'm not in charge here, which is totally a valid choice, and you might come to that, but I also wonder if there's something here, which is probably why you're asking this question, and what you're grappling with is, like, What is the intention of care?
Kyley: Should care be provided? Right? Like, is it prevent, is it like, is it just managing comfort? Is it preventing disaster? Is it like, you know, like when all the power goes down and you like just keep the low, like somehow the generator turns on just the low lights so you don't slam into the door, right? It's like that level of like, we're just trying to avoid catastrophe, like.
Eva: Yeah. So that is such a good question because that's where the mortality stuff comes in because I've been like, And this is going to feel really hard for me to talk about on the podcast because I'm like, maybe I feel sensitive about it. And maybe it's one of those things where I feel sounds really bad and people, other people won't bat an eye.
Eva: But this is the bigger, also societal question of [00:35:00] like, what does care look like for our elderly elders, essentially for our elders? And I'm like, what really is the point of extending her life at this point? Like, I, cause like, I had this conversation with my cousin and she was like, what's your goal here?
Eva: Is it to take care of her health? Is it to like have your relationship be good? Like, or there was something else too, but it's like looking at like, what really are the priorities here? And my priority, totally honestly is not about like health, Uh, prolonging health. Like to me, there's literally no point, not because like she needs to die right now, but like,
Eva: I don't know. I'm actually really curious, but what I'm actually also really curious what you think about this just in terms too, of like elderly people, like at one point, because like, we are living so much longer now. And I think for a lot of us, like those last 10 years, like, [00:36:00] don't look great. Like, you know, even if you have really great lifespan, like a health span, health span, some people are kicking all the way until they die.
Eva: But a lot of people, you know what I mean, are kind of in the shit over the last 10 years. And I'm just like, what is the point? Please tell me what my grandmother, she's in the hospital right now. She's 93 years old. has Alzheimer's. I love her to fucking death. I saw her in an ayahuasca ceremony. She's doing great in the other dimension, by the way.
Eva: She's so fucking happy, but in her human 3D life here, she is by herself because she's by herself with a caretaker at home with dementia. Um, not really mobile. She fell, had to go to the hospital. She did, they did surgery on this 93 year old woman to heal her hip. And I was just like, no one wants to see her go because she's grandma.
Eva: And I, and I feel so it's, it feels sacrilegious to say this, but I'm also like, but what is, I don't really, I truly don't know if I understand the point.
Kyley: [00:37:00] Uh, okay. There's so much we could say here. Uh, I feel like part of this, part of the answer to this question feels very tied to like the person. And I think to bring it back to your mom, that also makes it tricky because.
Kyley: What your mom wants or what your mom says she wants and then like how she acts like right She might say like I want everyone to like pay attention and take care of me and then she like fires the caretakers, right? So there's like some kind of disconnect that I mean, I do feel like adds an extra layer of, of challenge, whereas like someone else with their elderly parents might be like, no, I know that my parent has always wanted X, Y, and Z or wouldn't want X, Y and Z.
Kyley: Mm-Hmm. .
Eva: Mm-Hmm. and like Mm-Hmm. .
Kyley: We, we made a plan when they first started to get sick or, right. There's some, there's other dynamics where you might have more clarity of what the desires are. Um, Mm-Hmm. .
Eva: But that he looks good because my dad's been very clear to me about, he's like, I never wanna be like that.
Eva: Like if I get to that age and I'm doing that just like. Let me go. But [00:38:00] the thing is, how do we do that? Because there's no such thing as, this is such a dark conversation. We talk about this a lot in Taiwan because Taiwan has a huge elderly population. Lowest birth rate, one of the lowest birth rates in the world.
Eva: So I come here and it's just like a lot of old people. So this is like, as you can tell, this is a very loud conversation in my mind. I go around and I just see, And I'm contending. We also have a family that's got like some serious longevity, like. Yes. All of my grandparents have been alive until this past, these past six months.
Eva: I'm 40 years old and, and also Chinese, Asian people live till fucking forever. So like, this is a societal issue that we're dealing with, but euthanasia does not yet exist. And that's something that people talk about here because it was just like, so, so anyway, my point is, there's some people who have plans, but you, But I don't want to be like that.
Kyley: Plans are not accepted. Right. Yeah, I don't think plans is ever helpful. But I do think, I think navigating these complicated decisions that you're having to make, I suspect, having only seen this, you know, one generation removed, but like watching with my grandparents and stuff, [00:39:00] I, I think, I think it's a little, the decision making process, Is at least a little bit easier when you have some access to, like, what the person wants and also can trust that they won't sabotage whatever you do,
Eva: you know, um,
Kyley: so that I think adds a lot of, yeah, I think that, yeah,
Eva: yes, yeah, yeah, yeah,
Kyley: and
Eva: Yeah, I think where we left off was this idea of like, what is it that I really, what does care look like? What's the point of care? You know, what is it that I really want? Like good relationship with my mom or to take care of her health, you know, like that's how I think we got started on that.
Kyley: So we went on that great morbid sidetrack thinking about like, what is the, What are the different options of intent? What is the intention of the care? Right? And what is your desired intent?
Kyley: Because as your cousin pointed out, like [00:40:00] maybe prolonging your years and having the best relationship are at odds, and you really have to pick one or prioritize one. But again, and I'm gonna sound like a broken record, I also think in here it's like, what do you want? Mm-Hmm? Like for
Eva: you? Mm-Hmm. . Mm-Hmm. .
Kyley: And, and I think that this is a complicated thing for caretakers.
Kyley: And I also think it's probably complicated for your history with your mom. You're getting a two for one where it's, there's so many ways. And then the cultural, like Asian daughter, this is your job thing. Like there's so many different layers where that are like reinforcing. I almost want to say backslide.
Kyley: That sounds like an unkind word, but it does feel like a retreat into like a position you've actually like left in some ways of like, my desires are less important. You know, where it's just less important than what you want.
Eva: Oh, okay. What you are helping me see, it's been so helpful, is like, what's so interesting is I came to you, [00:41:00] a very specific question, which is, what is love?
Eva: And I think I've been trying to understand what it means to love other people. And that is the lens in which I was looking at this through when I came to you, like, that was my intention. I was like, how do we love other people? But I almost, but I think you're pointing to like something, Very significant, which is in there somewhere in the answer of what it means to love other people.
Eva: I think also means we have to look at what it means to love ourselves. Like maybe they're not, maybe they're not disconnected or maybe they're connected.
Kyley: Yeah.
Eva: Yeah.
Kyley: Because if you're trying, if you, I mean, there, there's a lot of reasons why I, my best friendship of last year blew up, but one of them was definitely, Way in which I loved that person more than I love myself without realizing that that was that I am, which made it inherently unsustainable.
Kyley: Right?
Eva: Wow. [00:42:00] Wow.
Kyley: So yeah. What is love? The answer can't be. That other people are more important than you, nor can it be that you're more important than them. Hmm. But you're less likely to do the latter than the
Eva: former. Well, I'm so afraid that I'm going to do the latter. I'm so afraid that I'm going to be like, I'm more important than you are.
Eva: And that makes me feel so bad. And I'm so overwhelmed with guilt and shame that I think I overcompensate. And I do the thing where it's like, you're more important than me. But also my question is, can't I do that? Can't I be more important than the other person in my own life? I have like, you put your own oxygen mask on first, that kind of thing.
Kyley: Yes. Yeah. I mean, from an, from an ego place, it doesn't serve us. But I do think we could follow the thread where the most loving thing we can do for other people is to love ourselves.
Eva: Fuck, dude. It's like, I mean, that's so good. That is so good. And [00:43:00] I think for, oh my God, Kylie, this is so good. This is so good because I'm like, Oh, I'm here again.
Eva: I know. I remember I've had this conversation with you on the podcast before, like, I'm I'm just, but when I'm put in challenging situations, I always forget. And, and I think my challenge, I've been challenged and this has been a theme of my life. And again, when I was dating Adam and he was struggling with depression, like it's a theme of my life of like, like, you know, I guess I look at it through the lens of like having people, it's really, it's just, it's particularly hard.
Eva: It's not hard for me with certain people, but it's really hard for me when that person is what I label as sick. Or, you know, it's like not their fault or they can't help themselves, like mental illness or, you know, like, that's, that's where my 100 percent wrong story comes from. I'm like, I'm bad, like I'm bad.
Eva: I see, I've seen so clearly on this trip, like, oh, I know I have a story of badness and it comes because, [00:44:00] you know, my mom was sick. And so it wasn't her fault. And so it's my fault. And I have to take responsibility. She can't do anything. You know, like, oh, whatever I can get in. Anyway, I'm just saying, I'm just, you're just pointing out to me again, something that like is somehow obvious.
Eva: And also, you know, I totally missed it. But it's also like really fucking hard. I think when, you know, Put in like these circumstances and you have the saying, I don't know if it came from you and Liz or I don't know where it came from, you know, the saying like what's good for me is good for everybody else.
Kyley: What's good for you is good for me or good for me is good for you. Yeah,
Eva: okay. Yeah, what's good for me? What's good for you? I also like what's good for me is good for everybody else. Like Yeah,
Kyley: I like that one. I like that also. My needs are generous is another way that I say that my
Eva: needs are generous
Kyley: That's actually my favorite that one That's
Eva: new.
Eva: I really like that But I think there's something really profound about that. Like that's something that like on the surface is like, okay, like I [00:45:00] just think that can go so deep. Like when you're
Kyley: really,
Eva: when like you're pushed up against the wall and you have to make like a really tough decision, like again, the one that I have to make, or like, I keep going back to for some reason, like the parent who has to, um, cut out their addict child from their life.
Eva: Like what's good for me is what's good for you. Like almost like that.
Eva: I don't know if I'd call it tough love. It is, I think tough love, but it's also just like harmful. I think sometimes when we keep, um, It is harmful. It's harmful when we, I want to say, I was gonna say it's harmful when we sacrifice ourselves for other people. But at the same time, even as I say that isn't parenthood all about fucking sacrifice, you know, like, I don't want that to be the story.
Eva: But that is what parents do over and over and over again. And it's lauded as the most selfless thing.
Kyley: Yeah, I think that's why parents are fucking miserable all the time.
Eva: Okay, so are you, do you, do [00:46:00] you, do you feel like it should be done in a different way?
Kyley: Well, I think, I think that the model of love as sacrifice, specifically as it's given to mothers and parents, fucks us all up and I think it's bad for everybody.
Kyley: I think it's terrible, because it tells the story that, that love is too self abandoned. And then I'm showing, I, the ultimate original story of model of love for my children, I am showing them, you want to know the purest form of love? It's to abandon yourself. That's not, that's, no.
Eva: No, yeah, you're right. No, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no.
Eva: Yeah, and I can, and I've seen that happen, you know, just like. Asian parents across the, I don't know, but I just wanted to speak to Asian culture. It's like, there is [00:47:00] a story. It's like, I've done, I've done all this stuff for you. And I, and I, and then, uh, you know, I sacrificed so much for you and now it just, it's so messy.
Eva: And then, and then
Kyley: there's just like weird resentment death, but I didn't ask you to make those sacrifices. Now I owe you.
Eva: Yes, totally. Totally. And so, okay. So then as a parent, How does, how you, how you do it, because you do sacrifice, right? Do you not?
Kyley: Yes. So I'll speak to that in a second because the one other thing I will say is that the thing that I see over and over and over and over again is like, when I,
Kyley: when I self abandon, my kids get a shittier version of me, right? When I self abandon to, to mother, they get a me who's resentful, who loses her patience, who's unkind, who, Like, yells at them for things that are not their fucking fault, who doesn't want to play with them because she's so dysregulated and exhausted and burnt [00:48:00] out.
Kyley: Like, they don't, like, when I'm my best self, the other day, I can't remember what it was, but my Desi, who will be eight, did something he wasn't supposed to be doing that I'd asked him not to do a bunch of times. And I was, like, my cup was very full. And you know what I did? I made a joke about it. And we laughed and he cut the shit.
Kyley: Right? But the me who is totally in self sacrifice mode does not have the bandwidth. To like, make a joke about, right? It just snaps. It's like,
Eva: you think
Kyley: I'm going to do that already? That
Eva: sucks! Totally, totally.
Kyley: Oh my
Eva: god, that's totally what's been happening here with me. It's like, everything feels so personal and high stakes, and I'm just like, my fuse is so short because, yeah.
Kyley: You know, a couple of like, parent related One time my husband, Said something which actually came from the therapist he was seeing at the time and it was this like brilliant line, which was, you always have the choice to do nothing. [00:49:00] And that's like a line we offer each other as a reminder, which is like there's sometimes that your kid is like, You know, jumping on the, because your kid is doing something that you're like, don't want them, you know, whatever, whatever it is.
Kyley: And the, the, the thing is, you always have the option to do nothing, right? You don't, like, unless someone's like about to set the house on fire, there's always the choice to be like, I'm going to let this situation play out and I'm going to remove myself until I can get my shit together. Like, you made it there, like, giant Lego, all the Legos in the whole house are in the middle of the floor and everyone has to leave for school in five minutes.
Kyley: I have the choice to do nothing. And, um, and
Kyley: that for me, this is like a random thing to be saying about the like self venting, but that for me is like, gives me permission to get out of the, I have to fix all the problems, overly responsible mode, which is one of the big aspects that I get into. Like self sacrifice mode is like, I have to fix everything all the time.
Kyley: And so that line, I'm like, I have the [00:50:00] choice to do nothing. It's just very helpful. Um, but yeah, I definitely sacrifice for my kids. All the time.
Eva: And,
Kyley: uh, sometimes I do it in a sovereign way and sometimes I do it in, out of like guilt or resentment or my own, you know, bullshit programming. And one of those feels good and one of those doesn't.
Eva: I think, you know, like the other night. Yeah.
Kyley: The other night. One of my kids was like, you know, we went to bed started at bedtime and pretty quickly I could see that they had a lot of really big feelings and that they needed to actually stay up and have a conversation with me and my plan had been to be a quick bedtime because I'm excited to go read my book.
Kyley: I have a brand new book. I can't wait. And I get in there and I'm like, Oh, no, this, this tiny human needs to talk to me for a long time about the things that they are feeling and I was in there for like the point that Nick came in. It was like everything. Okay. Yeah.
Eva: And.
Kyley: That was definitely a sacrifice. I wanted [00:51:00] to be reading my book, but the difference was Again, to the like, always have the choice to do nothing.
Kyley: I didn't I wanted to be there. I wanted to give up my book. Yes, it was a sacrifice, but it was a choice.
Eva: Yes. Yes. Yes. So that I think is it, it, that is the thing that makes all the difference in the world, which we talk about here on the podcast, you know, like It's never what we do. It's how we do it. It's like who and or who or what in us, you know, um, creates the action and or how are you relating to the action?
Eva: It's all the internal stuff. And so I think there's nothing like sacrifice isn't good or bad or it's not right or wrong. But, but I do think it's like, are we doing it from a place? Yeah, basically a place of guilt or is it a genuine desire? And I [00:52:00] think
Eva: that to me actually feels big. It's like, I, yeah. I need to, I think it's really hard for, and then I also think it's really hard for me to hear my genuine desire when I'm in a constant place of should and guilt and lack. It's like, basically that's where I've been these past two weeks. It's like, all of it is all self condemnation that I can't, that I feel so much resentment that I can't even hear what the true desire is.
Eva: And I, and I am, and I just know actually from experience that if I removed the shoulds and the self condemnation, I might find out I actually do want to do this or don't want to do this. And it would be. a choice. I think what I'm really scared, scared of finding out is that what if I don't want to do any of it?
Kyley: I think you, okay. I think you are hearing what you want, not maybe not big picture, but I think you are hearing what you want. And your resentment is telling you very loudly what you want, which is that you want to be doing a lot less than you're doing. [00:53:00] Right. And, or at the very least you want to feel access to more choice.
Kyley: Yeah. And I, I, I think you want to want to be a kind of daughter for your mother right
Eva: now. Totally.
Kyley: And that's, and we could call that should, but should, should to me feels like the external programming. Should feels like other people's voices. So that's there. I feel like you can see that a little bit more clearly.
Kyley: I think the thing that's confusing is, The want to want to be a certain kind of daughter is a genuine desire. Yes,
Eva: yes, because I love her. And sometimes we have a great time together, right?
Kyley: And and as a result then you want the resentment to like just shut the fuck up.
Eva: Yes. Mm hmm. Mm hmm
Eva: Yeah,
Eva: like yeah, I'm just your [00:54:00]
Kyley: your resentment is the fast tracked gratitude
Eva: My resentment is a fast tracked gratitude.
Kyley: Yeah, have you not heard? This is like my favorite little like mini Ted Talks Have I not given this on the show before? No. Oh, oh, oh
Kyley: Resentment is like, you know, if we're gonna work with binaries resentment is the inverse of gratitude, right? You want to like be joyfully great? You want to be joyfully me grateful or able to appreciate your mom a gratitude appreciation all that energy and resentment feels like it's the roadblock To appreciation.
Kyley: the thing that's in the way, but you always say, like, what's in the way is the way. So there's a part of you who's like, I want to want to be a certain kind of daughter. The problem is the fucking resentment. So the resentment's got to go away. And all the whole wild resentment sitting there being like, but I'm the shortcut, whatever's in here, got to open the lid and find out.
Kyley: But like, I'm the shortcut to the appreciation and freedom for everybody. But you got to [00:55:00] go into the ugliness. I think you're trying to like a little bit spiritual gap. It's like a very high level sophisticated. Oh, I'm so
Eva: fucking good at that. It's the worst. You're
Kyley: so nuanced. You're like, you're like so close to the water that it almost, you're almost It's
Eva: treacherous.
Eva: It's fucking treacherous, dude.
Kyley: But I think I, I mean, like, I don't, I don't love this for you, but I think you got to like Hold on your little like, um, like miner's hat with a light on the front and you got to go down to the reception and like swim in it.
Eva: I'm not sure I, like, even clock what you're saying.
Eva: What do you mean by go down into resentment? Like, yes, please say more. I mean, I'm just fast. I'm like floored by the way, this idea of like, yes, of course, of course. Of course, resentment is the inverse of gratitude. And I hear just, just to like, organize this a little [00:56:00] bit. And then, and then I, for me, for my own brain, it's like, I hear what you're saying.
Eva: It's like, I see this. It's like, my resentment is actually like, how I'm hearing this is that my resentment is actually the thing that's getting in the way of me understanding what it is that I really want. Cause I do like the, the desire to be close and like, and have, and be, uh, to just love my mom. How about that?
Eva: The desire to love my mom is so genuine. Like, that's the most genuine thing at the core, but I can't. It's like, I feel like I don't know how to do that because the resentment is just blinding me. Yes, you're like, okay, she's bursting. I know, I'm making so many faces. She's bursting, yes, let's go. I
Kyley: wish you all could see my face.
Kyley: Because you just, you just gave it away. The most genuine desire is to love your mom. Where is Eva in that poor, most genuine desire? She's a side character. Right. The most genuine [00:57:00] desire for all of us at all times should be that we love ourselves. So I actually think that's, Oh, I am like, I do feel like I'm being kind of vicious, but I actually think it's a lie that your most genuine desire is to love your mom.
Kyley: I think your most genuine desire is to love yourself. And you have a secondary desire to love your mom and they are close, but your resentment is pissed because it's saying, why are you pretending that this is our core desire? It's not. You're a liar. Go down one more layer. Because of programming and pain and trauma, like, that layer feels dangerous, right?
Kyley: If like, if, if the center of everything is that Eva loves Eva, obviously that is very, that's a very disruptive, right? That's inherently disruptive. So it's, that feels dangerous. Or you're reserving it as a gift, because they won't let you off the hook.
Eva: Listeners, are you guys taking fucking notes here? Like, is [00:58:00] this It's good for me.
Eva: I don't know if other people are in this situation. But you know what? Save this episode because I don't mean this in a cynical way. You will be. You will be in this situation one day where it's this contending of like, what is love? And loving other people, especially people who are challenging and loving yourself.
Eva: And just fucking bookmark this.
Kyley: Everyone has someone, everyone has at least one person that they love dearly that is difficult. So you know, like, I mean, I feel confident that we can all relate to
Eva: this or, and also what you're saying, maybe Disney about difficulties, like maybe someone that you love so much, but taking care of them has just gotten difficult because of mortality.
Eva: Like, that's awesome. Yeah. Right. You know, I think this is the human experience. Oh my God. Okay. So my core desire is to love myself. And because that is not happening and because yeah, it's a lot, you know, like, or, you know, I'm, I'm, I'm not seeing that clearly. It's actually getting, that's, that's so, that's what you're [00:59:00] pointing out to me.
Eva: This is the theme is like, when I don't love myself, it just gets all fucking messy. Like I think my core desire is to love my mom, but I can see like, wait, that's actually not working. Like there's all this resentment coming up and the resentment is so loud. I don't even get to clearly see how I want to show up for my mom.
Eva: If I just let myself. If, if my core desire is to love myself, I, I don't know, I, I think I have to like, really I want to say like, Oh, this is what would happen and blah, blah, blah. And like, but the truth is, you don't know. I don't know. Like, there's only one way to fucking find out baby. There's one way to
Kyley: really go all the way down into loving yourself.
Kyley: You might come up and say, Oh, I do love my mom, but I have to leave and let her sink or swim. And right. Or some other thing could come up, but you go all the way down. Okay. You don't, you don't, you don't know. You could, I think we can trust that it will be.
Eva: Well, I think I'm so scared to find [01:00:00] out because I think I have such a strong programming of like, I'm bad.
Eva: Like, I'm already convinced that whatever it is that I find underneath, like, what it means to like, to love myself is going to be, and I can tell cause I'm getting like, emotional. Like I can, it's this core programming of like, yeah, my desires and my wants. Like, can't, you know, aren't gonna hurt other people, or I'm selfish, or I'm bad, and yeah, you know.
Eva: And it's like so good to see, you know, I'm crying, but it's like, but meaning like, it's also, it's so good to see. It's just the noticing of like, Oh, that's,
Eva: that's what I'm carrying right now. That's what lives inside of me. And I can begin to really question that. Like, even if I did choose to do something that was solely for me, whatever that even looks like, or even means, like, there's something there too, about loving that, you know, like, could I love [01:01:00] myself, even if I, it's just, it's like, it's like I could choose myself.
Eva: And then like, but not fully enjoy it, you know, because I would just be in so many riddled with so much guilt or I could choose myself. And it's like really love myself through that. And I think that's like the hardest thing, you know, it's like being a, it's like, cause like what I wanted to ask you, it's like, well, how do you sacrifice, you know, or it's like, um, as parents, like parents are always sacrificing and, um, And then what if one day you choose not to, and you choose to choose yourself over your kids?
Eva: I think the piece that we have to contend with is like, what we make that mean about ourselves. You know, like, the guilt that we might, that we might, that we might, um, run up against. And I think that guilt is just a way that we punish ourselves as a way to show love. [01:02:00] It's like, wait, I've chosen myself, but let me just feel guilty this whole fucking time because I don't actually deserve this happiness.
Eva: And so like, So, so, so I'll just either feel guilty and it's like, no, what if I did it?
Kyley: And like, cause then you're not really choosing it, right? It's like a way of like having, you're not like starting to choose yourself and then pushing it back. Yeah. It's like
Eva: a good start. It's a good start. But it's not all the way freedom.
Eva: Yeah. Not all the way love. And it actually kind of sucks.
Kyley: I mean, it's someone who's like, Oh, you know, mom guilt of like, You know, taking time for myself. There's ways in which I'm really, really good at it. Like, I've traveled by myself away from my kids many, many, many times, even when they were young and, you know, there's ways in which I'm really good at it.
Kyley: And there's other ways, which is total, like, total, it's, it's, I have a hard time with it. And I had a really interesting conversation with Birdie the other day, who's 5 and like, [01:03:00] very much, like, wants, like, really loves to, like, be with me and, like, have my attention. And sometimes I'm, and she's like the sweetest, coolest kid in the whole show.
Kyley: She goes up to me, she's like, mama, do you want to play with me?
Eva: So sweet and innocent and full of love, you know?
Kyley: And I'm sitting there like, I mean, there's like, there's so many moments where she comes up with the sweetest little girl in the entire world. It's mama, you want to play with me? And my honest answer in my heart is no, I don't want to.
Kyley: I want to be with you. Like I'll sit on the couch next to you or like, you can play and we'll be together. Right. But I'm like, And then I have to grapple with like, and what I, to the point of resentment, what I, the reason I can start to hear the no is because I used to do it and then I would just be annoyed, right?
Kyley: I would be annoyed at her or I would be annoyed at everybody else 15 minutes later, or I would get up and I would walk away and then I would be really mad at myself for being like, why aren't you playing with her? You said you would. You're in the kitchen. Like, what are you [01:04:00] doing? I didn't want to be there in the first place, right?
Kyley: Um, and so I have, you know, that she's old enough now that I can do this, but I had a cool, really cool conversation the other day where I was like, we were just getting ready for bed and she referenced something about mom needing alone time or wanting alone time. And I was like, yeah, I was, you know, basically could say like, I love spending time with you.
Kyley: Like, you're one of my favorite people in the whole world, but sometimes I just really also love to be alone. And she looks at me, she goes, bye. Yeah, I like alone time too. Oh, it's so cool. Like,
Eva: okay, great. Totally. Just like being, and that's, that's a funny thing is like, I get into these like tiffs or arguments with my mom or whatever.
Eva: Cause my fuse is short. And it's, but it's like you were saying, it's the laughter thing. It's like, it's the, actually, if my resentment wasn't there, my fuse was, I could have, I could just have a conversation with her. And actually, I think it would be a much more productive conversation. Um,
Kyley: even if the conversation is, I have to walk out of this room right now before I scream at you and I'm going to [01:05:00] be alone for 50, right?
Kyley: Like, even, even if that's the conversation, because I think that's the, like, that feels like the slippery slope for you is that like, there's a part of you. You know, you use that phrase doing to get and I feel like there's a part of you who will want to choose yourself just long enough to like go back to being in service of your mom.
Eva: Right.
Kyley: I do as a parent all the time. I have to watch this myself. That's why I recognize it. Okay. Great. If I, I chose myself just enough, so now I can like, I can go back to making her a priority,
Kyley: I think the other thing that can happen with resentment. Is when we're doing this like self abandonment thing, the cues up resentment, it can also make it really hard to see the help that is available. Like when I'm really turned up in like guilt and shame and resentment and then guilty for resentment.
Kyley: I just don't let myself even see that there's help or, and I definitely don't let myself ask for [01:06:00] it. So like a small example is that, um, birdies in this dance class Wednesdays at four and. I like occasionally have work things. What is it for that? It's like, I've had some things pop up. Like I, anyways, and I like recently got invited to join this really cool mastermind that's going to meet at that time.
Kyley: And my initial response was like, but like Bertie's dance class and like Bertie loves seeing me. She loves like coming up to me and smiling. And like, if I joined this mastermind, then I won't be able to like be her mother, who's there for, and I like started to get all like, you know, twisted up and contorting.
Kyley: And then I was like, okay. Okay. Like, I could feel the churn of like, I don't know what my options are. And then I could also feel the part of me when I'm in that, like. Self abandonment as love thing. I also start to just take on too much responsibility. Like, that's just, I don't know if that's everyone's go to.
Kyley: That's definitely mine. It's just like, I'll just, I'll just figure it out. I'll just, I'll just put everything on my shoulders. Right. Yeah. So I could see myself like, okay, maybe I could do this. Maybe [01:07:00] I could take it from the car. Like I was just doing this whole crazy thing. And then I was just like, okay, stop.
Kyley: What is the actual desire? Cause maybe the desire is that dance is more important. Like maybe it is really, really means a lot to me. I love taking her to dance. That feels like our special thing. Or maybe the most important thing, the real desire is like, yeah, I want to doing this mastermind with all these really cool, smart women.
Kyley: Like, of course we can imagine that the mastermind won. And so. Like, but the first thing for me in that moment was just like, okay, which one of these is, which one is the like, is the truer desire or like the deeper desire? And there is some grief in that because I do love bringing her to dance class, right?
Kyley: So it's not like a black and white. There's like, it's so sweet. It's like love holding her little hand, helping her get drastic. It's a very sweet thing. And that is the true desires to join this mastermind. And then, and so then it was like, okay, well, then what am I going to do about it? Because if my needs are generous and I want to do this mastermind [01:08:00] and Birdie has dance that she loves and is really important.
Kyley: And I looked up and I was like, oh, my mother in law loves, like loves to come and help and is amazing. And I texted her and every other Wednesday now she's going to come and take Birdie to
Eva: dance.
Kyley: And like, If I didn't, for me, if I didn't take the minute to, like, notice the churn and then get clear about, um, what the real desire was, I either wouldn't have seen that I could just ask for help because I would have felt too guilty to ask for help, but I also wouldn't have, um, even if I'd asked for help, I would have felt like shit about it.
Kyley: Like I would have beat myself up for asking for help because I wouldn't have grappled with the part of me who's like, but you should be there. Does that make sense? Yeah. Um, yeah.
Eva: Resentment's a bitch. It's like, uh, the resentment, the overwhelm. It's not a creative space. One is what I'm hearing you say. And it's also not a [01:09:00] kind space.
Eva: It just, it just basically says you're not allowed to join, enjoy any of it. And it
Kyley: like, just can't, by definition, it's an energy that like, doesn't believe solutions exist.
Eva: Oh my God. I had to write that down. Yeah. Resentment. Yeah. Um,
Eva: all right. That's a journey. Okay. I think what to tie things like we're coming towards the end and this might be an ongoing conversation exploration. I mean, it already has been, you know, this is a theme that's come up on our podcast. Over the years. Um, and I want to see a conversation that I'm so happy that we're having in like a very real way because I know that when I'm in these situations, I feel so isolated.
Eva: And then I also do the thing where I'm like, but this is so common like mental illness, age, aging, death, like
Eva: difficult [01:10:00] people like this is This is universal. And I feel like, you know, where are the conversations about these, you know, and I, and I think this is it. These are the conversations.
Kyley: Can I ask you a question? In that these are universal, does it feel like because it's universal, you shouldn't be so upset or feel so isolated about it?
Kyley: No,
Eva: no, no, no. It's more like a, it's more like a power thing. Like it comes feeling like power rather than victimhood. It's like, I want to change the fucking dialogue because, and offer like a service to people because this, this is. is really common and let's make this, it's like, you know how I love talking about my period.
Eva: Like I'll go into a room with a bunch of guys and tell everyone I'm on my period and I just love it. Cause I'm like, let's change, let's make this universal. You know, let's, let's make this the thing to me, this feels like a societal issue. You know, like who was saying this the other day? It's like, it's like, it's like, it's like being a mother.
Eva: It's like, um, It's like postpartum. It's like the [01:11:00] most common fucking thing in the world because everyone has been born and yet like still somehow we
Kyley: don't actually,
Eva: there's, yeah, it's so isolating, right? As a new mother, blah, blah, blah. Like these somehow they're still not just woven into the text or the dialogue of our everyday life.
Eva: That's kind of what I mean. Um, but I came to you with the question of like, what is love even really? And again, this question is still interesting to me because I think there's still more here. Like. There's some juiciness, you know, but I will say that I think I was brought up thinking that love is about what you can do for people.
Eva: Like how much, not even like not from a, like a, um, like, you know how there's like five love languages or whatever. I think, um, for my mother, her love language is like acts of service. Um, yeah. And maybe like quality time. Or something like that. [01:12:00] And those things are like, real. Anyway, but I don't know, for some reason, one of the big takeaways for me here is like, I don't actually think love is about what I can do for people.
Eva: It's not about what I, it's not about acts of service. Like, it's, it's not about what I do. It's, it's, I still don't know really what it is. It's about, but I know I feel like I need to start with first. What does love for myself look like? I'm like, even just there, even just that is a great fucking beginning, which is an insane thing because my whole thing is self love, you know?
Eva: So it's like, I could be discovering this forever. Oh, it's like, I don't know. It's almost like if there was a, um, a chart, it's like, yes, love could be acts of service and quality of time and gifts. And what's the other one? Words of affirmation. And, uh, uh, oh, yeah, physical touch. Those are just some examples about how people like to be loved.
Eva: But those are still at the bottom of the [01:13:00] graph, like, at the top, universally, there's still something bigger here that I think you and I, or that I want, you know, that we're grappling with and questioning. And I think there's, like, love for self, and then also God comes in here somewhere, you know, like, life, the
Kyley: mystery.
Kyley: I said this when you and I were just chatting the other day, we weren't on the podcast, but I want to say it again, cause it feels so relevant to this, this, this realization that I had a while ago that we don't love things about people, we just love people. Right. And we tell the story, we, the way we tend to talk about it is like, Oh, like I love Eva because she's smart and funny and generous and, you know, Talks about poop, like whatever the like, whatever the like list is, right?
Kyley: But that's not why I love you. That's like that, that, that language actually like misses the whole point. I [01:14:00] just love you. It's just, it's just in the fabric of my experience in the world. And in loving you, I get the delightful experience of like learning and observing and absorbing all these things about you, which that I love.
Kyley: Because I love you. Right?
Eva: And we make
Kyley: that
Eva: meaning out of it. Sometimes we go, Oh, I love her because of this, but actually, no, it's like, sometimes we just love.
Kyley: And a really, really great example of to like, to really bring this home is like the people who are your favorite people that do things, I don't know if anyone else has this experience, but I have this with like my closest family members, my husband, my kids, like parents, like they do things that drive me nuts because they're my closest people, like just insane, weird quirks and idiosyncrasies.
Kyley: And I fucking love that about them. Like this thing that is like so annoying is also a thing that I'm like, oh, that's the thing you do. I hate it. I love it. Like,
Eva: yes,
Kyley: you know what I'm talking about [01:15:00] that like, yeah, yes.
Eva: So I, it's also the thing I imagine people end up laughing about when people die and you'd be like, you remember that one with so and so who did that really annoying thing and everyone hated it and then you're just like, aw, like, that was so her.
Eva: Yes, at my,
Kyley: at my funeral, everyone would be like, remember how she never texted back? Yeah, yeah. And then she'd come in with like 40 voice notes in a row. Oh, Kylie. Um, but I think that relates to what you're saying here, which is like, Our love is not, love is not actions and it's not tangible things. It's just like a state of being in the fabric of, of our existence.
Kyley: Yeah. But it's like, I think that's why in the beginning I was using this phrase about like being in integrity with love, right? Cause it's like, I don't, I [01:16:00] don't know what the, I don't know the answer, but that framing popped in and I liked it, which is like, Am I in integrity with the energy of loving me and loving you and, um, or am I out of integrity?
Kyley: In which case, how do I return to the thing that already is, which is love?
Eva: Yeah. I mean, that's, that's part two, three, four, five, six, seven of this conversation. Cause it's like, that's how, that's actually the conversation that I, that I kind of thought we were going to have. Cause I was sort of in this intellectual place of like, let's talk about the spiritual capital L love version of love.
Eva: And that was not the conversation I needed. You know, this was the conversation that I needed, but there's still something there for me where I'm still asking myself, like, um, I don't even know. It's an, it's an, I don't know. I don't know if I know what love is. And I love being in this place of, I don't know, it doesn't feel, it's not like a diss.
Eva: It's like an openness, like [01:17:00] to share another story of what I mean by this is like, and I've shared this with you, but to share with everybody, it was just like such a sweet moment of like, when I fell in love with Tom and it happened very, it was just like this very profound and intense experience where I just felt this overwhelming sense of love, but it wasn't like, I don't even know, still to this day, I don't know how to explain it.
Eva: It wasn't like I love, it was almost like a soul falling in love with a soul. It is what it felt like. Like, like life, you know, language falls short and it was like, I can't possibly know that I, it wasn't like, I love these qualities about you because you're Tom. It was like, and I was trying to say to Tom, like, I just love you.
Eva: And he was like, yes, like you love me without a story. It's love without a story. And I will always remember that because I was like, He just was able to verbalize the [01:18:00] experience that I was having. It's like, we don't, I don't need to have a story as to like a descriptive of like what it is. It's, it feels like the purest love, love without a story of like why or what you did for me or who you are and these qualities.
Eva: It's like that to me is I think the kind of love that I was imagining that we might talk about today on this conversation again, you know, to be continued, but I am interested in continuing to explore what love without a story looks and feels like.
Kyley: Can I ask you one last question? Based on what we've talked about today, can you imagine what love without a story looks like either for yourself or for your mother going forward?
Kyley: And maybe you don't have an answer yet.
Eva: Thank you for asking this question. It's so good. [01:19:00] My initial reaction was like, I have no fucking clue. So that was interesting to notice. Because I'm still in this, I think it's just pointing to how I still feel just like in the grapple. But actually, more quietly on the coattails of that what came through was like, I already know I love her without a story.
Eva: Like, I love her, like, so much. And we haven't even gotten into the story yet. Like, I was crying over coffee the other day with my cousin because we were talking about like the power of like the mother daughter relationship because she was talking about how like the people who love my mom the most in this world are like my grandmother, so like her mom, and then it's my mom, and then me.
Eva: And there's just this really beautiful, powerful, but terrifying thing that happens I think between the love of like a mother and a daughter. Which isn't to say like, you know, mothers and sons also have their own thing and fathers and daughters have their own thing. Yeah.
Kyley: Yeah. Yeah.
Eva: But to me, there's like something very spiritual here about like, [01:20:00] I don't know, this tie that I have with my mom and who she probably was to me in like all these past lives.
Eva: Um, so it's like, I already know that I love her without a story. And I think what I'm contending with is like, is that enough? You know, like, I, I think the, I think I, basically the answer is like, that is enough. Like, to love someone without a story is enough, and I think, like, I'm saying this to myself now, is like, I have to learn, or I want to learn, and like, what I want to step into is like, that is enough, and it has nothing to do with how much I do for her, but like, I think that's, yeah, that's what I was touching into when I asked you this question of like, it's, it's so enough,
Eva: and maybe that's just like an emotion, you know, it's like a feeling, like, what if that's [01:21:00] what love is? I don't, I don't know.
Kyley: I I'm also tearing up and what strikes me is
Kyley: I receive all the time how much you love me without a story. Like it's such a blessing in my life how many times you've shown up to love me without a story and times when I really needed it and you love Tom without a story and you love your mom without a and maybe you just gotta love Eva without a story.
Eva: Podcast listeners, like real time experiencing of like a big release, like laughing [01:22:00] sometimes, you know, it was like, like, I'm losing it in the best way. It's like such a release. Like this happens to me sometimes when I'm, when I have like, anyway, you get it. Like, yeah, I think purging and releasing comes in all different forms and sometimes it's laughter.
Eva: I'm like, Oh my God. Like, I see it. Oh my god, it's so funny. You're so fucking right. Like, it's that simple, like, in this moment and then later it might get complicated, but, um, sorry, it's like, duh.
Eva: Yeah, like, to really love myself without a story, like, that is ultimate love. Like no good or bad, no good, no bad, no right, no wrong. Not because I do this, not because of how perfectly or imperfectly I do. Like no story, like zero story. Because I just am, because it just is, because everything just [01:23:00] is. That's like reality, man.
Eva: Like that's where, you know, you've heard me say, and Tom talks about, it's like Byron Katie, like reality is love because it's room for everything. It just is. Is ness is love. And it allows for everything to just be. be and it has no justification, like needs no justification. Yeah. To love myself without a story.
Eva: What a beautiful endeavor.
Kyley: Yeah. Me too. Oh yeah.
Eva: Yeah. Let's do it.
Eva: Wow. Thank you so much. Kylie Caldwell. What a fucking ride. I'm so grateful again. Once again, like we're in this phase of launching season five of this and I'm just like, again, just Being carried [01:24:00] by you and these conversations and genuinely hoping that they, I don't know, serve In some way.
Eva: What do you think? Is it time for joy? Is there anything else you wanted to say?
Kyley: I think loving yourself without a story feels like the ultimate liberation and the ultimate mic drop. I don't know what else there is to even say after that. Like, that's what we're, that's what we're all, that's what we all came here
Eva: to do.
Eva: I can figure out. Yeah, I think that's what we all came here to do. I mean, it's just to me, I think what we're talking about is just, it's just another version of enlightenment. What I call enlightenment. Yeah. Okay. I'm going to grab a tissue before we move to joy. Oh, I feel emptied in a really good way. By the way, thank you so much, Kylie.
Kyley: Same, same, same, same. You want to share your joy?
Eva: Yeah. All right. A
Kyley: minute to [01:25:00] recover.
Eva: Um, okay. Well,
Eva: it just, yeah, it's strange. You know, I'm here in Taiwan. I think one of the things that's bringing me joy, despite it's so weird. In some ways, I feel like. busier, more flustered. And in other ways, I kind of have more time. I can't explain it. It's very odd, but I will say, I think it's more time in comparison to when I was doing that sprint of traveling.
Eva: And I just feel like there's, I've just been doing little self care things that have been bringing me back to feeling by myself, like that tour that we did was amazing. And I don't know if I told you yet, Kylie, but I'm like, I never want to fucking do it like that ever again.
Kyley: I can imagine. You didn't even have to tell me.
Kyley: I can just, I can just imagine. Yeah.
Eva: Yeah. Like never want to do like that again. It was just like so awesome and also perfect once. Yes. And so I don't know. I'll keep it simple. Some type of self care, which I think like being means being in nature for me, [01:26:00] um, and being back in Taiwan nature is so good. But the other thing it's really unrelated.
Eva: Do you, you know that I love, do you know that I love skincare?
Kyley: Yes, but I found this out only when you came to visit me. I didn't know it before then.
Eva: Really? Like I love skincare and I'm only recently getting into like Asian skincare, which is just feels like such a miss because Asian skincare is like so where it's at.
Eva: I was gonna
Kyley: say, I don't
Eva: even know, I don't even know anything about skincare. And I know like, Asian, like, Japanese people, Korean people, like, and, you know, that's closer to Taiwan. And I've just been like, kind of, like, really getting joy out of like, watching people's skincare. Skin, YouTube skincare, Asian videos and being like, Oh, I'm going to like really school myself on this and it doesn't feel like work.
Eva: It feels like just a hobby, like a fun treat, you know, it's like, Oh, let me just learn about Asian skincare and learn like all the, all the good ingredients are and I'm going to get so stocked up on all the best. I always have known that Asian people, cause like, I don't know how much, do you put sunscreen, do you wear sunscreen every day?
Kyley: I do.
Eva: Good. Okay. This, [01:27:00] this,
Kyley: this Irish girly cannot afford not to. Okay.
Eva: Well, yeah, it's just like fun, I guess, getting into sun, sunscreen in Asia has always been superior. Cause I don't know if you know, but in America, we can't have certain ingredients. And so it's just, it's, it's this whole thing, but they're American sunscreens are far less or far, or it's, Asian and Europe, Asian and yes, Asian and, um, European sunscreen has always been superior because of the ingredients that they can have.
Eva: Anyway, I'm going to learn all about it. If I learn anything cool, I'll let you know, or maybe I'll send you some shit.
Kyley: Please, please. Cause it overwhelms me, but I will definitely take the cliff notes.
Eva: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And so that's been really fun for me. And that's my joy.
Kyley: I, I love, I also just love you having the space to do like silly solo time stuff.
Kyley: I feel like for a little while alone, time was so. So few and far between in your mad [01:28:00] travels that like, you had to like, you know, when you don't get that much alone time, you have to like, Oh, I'm going to be really intentional. I'm going to do something really special with this alone time because it's been and then like, it's nice to have a surplus enough alone time.
Eva: Yeah, to even to well, it's
Kyley: been a little bit of a bum around on.
Eva: YouTube,
Kyley: it's a little
Eva: bit, it's been a little bit like a zoning out, just associating thing without judgment, I say that without judgment, like, sometimes I just need that, and so that's where that's coming in, and I'm like, so grateful for it, I'm here for it.
Eva: All right, Kylie, what's bringing you joy right now?
Kyley: Oh my god, I had the best fucking day. Before even this, which is like, really cherry on top, I had the best day. I Started my morning with a client of mine, who's this really incredible woman. Um, her name is Shea Bight. She has like a really, really rich practice of, um, mantra work with Hindu, uh, gods and goddesses.
Kyley: [01:29:00] And. For a while, we, you know, we've become friends, we've been talking for a while, and she was like, I really, can we, let's, we just, she offered to do a Lakshmi Puja with me, which is basically like holding space to do this really beautiful ritual connected to Lakshmi and, and, and Ganesh. Were two deities that I hang out with on the regular and it was just like just so incredible So beautiful.
Kyley: It's a really really really really cool thing Hold someone as they are like Evolving into the the like gifts. They're gonna share right there already their gifts But to like be the one who's like holds them behind the scenes and then have moments where you get to then Receive the thing that they it's like You So humbling, like I already knew that she was just really like so beautiful and humble and she doesn't even offer this as part of a business, although I'm gonna [01:30:00] make her now, but like, but like, anyways, it just was so humbling and so beautiful.
Kyley: And I was like, crying and crying. So that was amazing. So starting your day
Eva: with crying and ending your day with crying, that's a good day.
Kyley: Yes, exactly. And then there was a, there was a middle spell of also good crying because my very, very, very dear friend, Emily Thorner, who's an incredible healer and singer.
Kyley: And, um, it was, it was doesn't, she lives in the UK, but she was here in the state because she was giving a TEDx talk. And wow. We spent the whole day together, her talk was yesterday, we spent the whole day together on Cape Cod, like just sitting on a beach, and drinking beer, and communing with spirit, and she shared this like new music that she's recorded, and as she was sharing with me, she's like, I think you're the first like friend who's not on my like, Production team to actually hear this music.
Kyley: And
Eva: I was like
Kyley: sitting there at the beach with my [01:31:00] friend who like lives across the world, listening to her incredible art and like. God, it was just, yeah, it was just a really like really special day. And then we were talking deeply about something that we were each trying. We like kind of set the intention to release something.
Kyley: And, and I was, I had this moment where I was talking about the thing that I was feeling and I just turned to her and said, I think I need help. Like I had this moment where I could like feel this thing that I've been wanting to release and I could feel how I was like, okay, like, you know, you're a good self healer.
Kyley: We're at the beach, which is like your ultimate like place for release. And I just turned to her and I think I need your help. You know, like, I think I can't do it on my own. Right. All right. And, and she just like leaned in and was like there energetically and with words. And it was like, just this perfect moment of like, Just a reminder, like it's safe to ask for help, you know, it was [01:32:00] just a small moment that was so profound and, um, it just sounds like a really beautiful day of connection.
Kyley: Yeah. And then, and then this podcast episode. So really like peak abundance of like,
Eva: Hmm.
Kyley: And I came home with my husband and kids and made chocolate chip cookies. I mean, yeah, it's just like dream day, dream day of love and connection and, uh, intimacy and
Eva: loved,
Kyley: which has been my curriculum for a minute.
Eva: Yeah. Oh, so good. I love that. And so rich because I know, anyway, just like, this is the stuff, this is the most important stuff, the connection, the intimacy at the end of the day. Yeah. Yeah.
Eva: I love you so much. Kylie Caldwell.
Kyley: I love you. And listeners, thanks for being on this ride with us. Tell us your resentment stories. Tell [01:33:00] us your hair and.
Eva: Yeah, honestly, I just want to hear from you guys. Like, can you relate? Like, part of me is like, I think this is relatable. Like, I'm sharing it because I want it to, like, please, like, I want to know, like, who in your life drives you crazy and, and, and you have a hard time with and where you're contending with, like, meanings of love and how to love somebody.
Eva: Actually, more importantly, how to love yourself. And what does it even mean to love yourself without a story? Like, I know these are big questions, but Kylie and I love, love, love, love, love hearing from you. And if you want to leave it in a review, that'd be great. It's been a while. We need some new reviews.
Eva: Yeah, we've had, we've
Kyley: had some new, like, we haven't had new words to read. People have been reviewing the podcast. We almost have a hundred reviews, I noticed the other day, but we haven't had fresh words and you know, we, yes, but also
Eva: more actions happening over on Spotify these days. Like I usually check Apple podcasts, but I do think more stuff is happening over Spotify.
Eva: Anyway, uh, we love your love. So
Kyley: we do. I also wanted to say if [01:34:00] this topic is alive for you and you want to just like share your messy story with a question, we want to dive into more Q& A episodes this season too. Yes.
Eva: Yes. We want to answer your questions. Yes. Or share this episode with a friend who's struggling with some similar shit.
Eva: Y'all. Okay. We love you. Bye.