Our beloved Federico Petrelli is back—this time to talk about self-love, power, and the journey to creating a life of joy and hope. Plus, we dive into the absolutely gorgeous new program Fede & Eva are launching on how to do just this.
Our beloved repeat guest, Federico Petrelli is back—this time to talk about self-love, power, and the journey to creating a life of joy and hope. Plus, we dive into the absolutely gorgeous new program Fede & Eva are launching on how to do just this.
Enroll in the program https://www.evaliao.com/lovingourselves and stream the episode wherever you listen to podcasts.
Connect with Federico -
www.federicopetrelli.com
www.hopefordystonia.com/
Eva's instagram: @iamevaliao
Book a discovery call with Eva
Kyley's Instagram: @kyleycaldwell
Enroll in The Business Incubator
Federico
Eva: [00:00:00] Hi, Federico. Welcome back to Hello Universe. Uh, I think it's safe to say that we are both very excited to have you back.
Federico: Thank you so, so much for having me. It's such a joy to be here with you guys. I really, uh, can't even describe how happy it makes me.
Eva: Yeah. You're, you're showing up at your bedtime. This is that time you usually go to bed, so that's you. You must love us.
Federico: you're airing the dirty laundry here, but yes,
Eva: Um,
Federico: very, very happy to be here.
Eva: Cool. So, you know, um, the first question is, what's something that life is teaching you at the [00:01:00] moment?
Federico: many things actually. Um, one is courage and authenticity and showing up fully. In the world as you know, all of myself and trusting that, um, this serves. And yeah, I think that's a pretty big one.
Eva: Yeah. Do you wanna talk about how that's showing up in your life?
Federico: Yeah. Well, I guess part of it is what we are, um, perhaps going to talk about during, uh, this podcast, which is, uh, our partnership, um, Eva and, uh,
Eva: Woo. Woo.
Federico: the beautiful things that we're working on. Yes. And this partnership feels very special and the project that we're, uh, we're going to be talking about feels very special [00:02:00] because it is so personal and it is so, um, it feels so vulnerable to share, um, you know, these very intimate parts of us.
And yet sharing these, um, parts of us, this vulnerability, the lessons that we've learned from our journeys and our suffering and um, and how we've handled it, that is what's needed. That is some of what's most, um, precious, I guess. Um, Um, and, and what is most important, um, out of what we have to offer. I think the more authentic and vulnerable it is, um, the more precious it is as well.
I think. What, what are your thoughts on this? I.
Eva: Yeah, I mean, so to, you know, give [00:03:00] some context to our listeners. Um, this episode, we, I wanted to invite Federico on so that we could have a chance to talk about the topic of self-love. Um, which is all about, you know, in celebration of our program and our partnership together, um, loving ourselves into power, which is a six month.
Six month or six week, uh, program that we've created at really, you know, through the friendship and the relationship that we've cultivated, um, in the past two years in our meditation and teachers program. So yeah, I really wanted to be like, Hey, let's go on here and talk about self love and like really talk about it because, um, I don't know, it's just this weird thing where I'm like, it's a big topic, but also it's kind of in my mind.
I'd be curious, this is like gonna be one of my questions for the both of you. Like, part of me is also like, I feel like it's kind of played out, like, or it's this thing that's very, like, everybody knows that it's important, but there's also this, this way [00:04:00] that it shows up, I think in like pop culture that
Kyley: Hmm.
Eva: like, sometimes people roll their eyes at it and so, yeah.
I just, I I, I wanna get a sense of what do you guys think, like the sentiments are around self, self-love in this current site, like zeitgeist.
Kyley: Oh, okay. I love this question, but can I ask Fede a question about his answer before
Eva: Oh, of course. Yeah.
Kyley: can I just like, weave us back for a minute? Um, so I really, really, really love that you're speaking to like this trio of things that are important, being authentic and courage. Because I think it's like, as someone who's very ambitious, right?
Like I am, I want to, um, like take space up. I wanna like take off space in the world in a way that has an impact, right? [00:05:00] And what I am, like, once again, receiving from what you're saying is just the, the, the reminder of how much courage is actually really vulnerable. You know, like authenticity is the thing that is like the driver or the marker of something that's quote unquote important.
And, and to be authentic is like I committing the image of like a cat on its belt and its back like exposing its belly. Right? And that like, that is courage to create. Yeah. That has courage. And I think I'm curious, which feels deeply tied to self love, but I think I'm curious for each of you, like how you walk to a place or how you cultivate the courage that allows you to be authentic and vulnerable.
Federico: Well, I'll, yeah, that's an amazing question, and thank you for, for, uh, making those, those connections. Um, [00:06:00] in, in what I said, I think self-love is what allows, um, that courage really. Um, I find that the insecurity that I have struggled with for most of my life was mostly tied to a lack of connection with myself. And the deeper I'm able to love myself, all parts of me integrate, you know, the good, the bad, and the ugly. Um, and, you know, Trust that, um, that all of it is an expression of my intrinsic and inalienable goodness, right? The more I can connect to this, the more I can show up in the world with that [00:07:00] confidence, with that trust that says nothing that I do or don't do is ever going to that fundamental goodness.
And so I can allow myself to take risks, I can allow myself to, um, to try new things. And yeah, which is why I think our course on loving ourselves into power is so transformative because it tells us, and this kind of ties, uh, a little bit to, um, what Eva was saying, um, because we are cultivating courage, not by suppressing the parts of us that feel vulnerable, that feel insecure, that feel wounded, but by [00:08:00] them as deeply, um, as we can, and.
Again, finding that they are an expression of that inalienable goodness. And then from there, going out into the world. And I think that this is very different from what a lot of, um, the culture around us tells us about courage and showing up in the world and building confidence. You know, I see a lot of people, you know, practicing all kinds of affirmations and, um, kind of without really tying those affirmations to a deeper sense of self-love.
And so it ends up being a of just a, a patch that gets put on top of, um, of the wound, uh, without really allowing it to heal. And, uh, it ends up perhaps being a little bit narcissistic sometimes. Yeah.
Eva: or I think this is like, I mean, I love what you're speaking to [00:09:00] Kylie, which is that like courage is, I think we have the image of like, what a brave hero looks like, and you like forge ahead and there's almost like no acknowledgement that actually sometimes the whole time that you're forging ahead, you're just like an open wound.
Like, like, like in terms of being vulnerable, like it's, you're sensitive and it's, and you're tender, you know what? I, you're soft, it's not just like, you're like a Marvel action hero and, and there's no a sign of, you know, the, that, all that other soft gushy stuff.
Kyley: Oh yes. This has been, I have been really, um, like sitting with perfection and perfectionism that's been like, it's funny the things that you like, kind of thought you like, had tended to, you know, and then they come back and they're like, I didn't go anywhere. What are you, whatcha you on?
Eva: Oh, I wanna speak to that too. I wanna come back to that too. Okay. But yes, please continue.
Kyley: But, um, [00:10:00] that has been one of the things I've been witnessing is like, once again, the way that I have a story of the me who's like, who's good to your point. Right. I have the story of the me who's like got her shit figured out. Like has everything you know, has, has everything that is important to me somehow accomplished.
And she's always flawless, right? Even as I'm, I'm the one like standing up singing about monsters. I con, I continue to see that the, that the self who I am projecting into the future, who has her shit figured out. It doesn't have any of these like messy bits. And so, and then I think what happens is that then when we're in it, when we're like doing like brave and beautiful and courageous and alive things to what you guys are saying, like we can carry so much self-loathing through those
Eva: Or we think we're doing it wrong. Yeah, we, we think like, oh, I must not actually [00:11:00] be doing it right because I'm not supposed to feel these things.
Kyley: Like if I may used an example, wouldn't we, I dunno if you remember, but when you were like at some point in the like cross country move settling into Austin, there was this conversation of like, you know, this was supposed to be my big adventure. And I was like, I'm pretty sure this is what the adventure, right?
Like it includes the day of like, oh, and I am like crying a
Eva: Yeah, yeah,
Kyley: which is I think what we all do right, is like, have the story of like, I know. Yeah.
Eva: Yeah, just cuz it's quote unquote messy doesn't mean you're doing it wrong. And, and I don't even know if messy is the right word, because there's a connotation there that's, that means like somehow it's, it's not n neat, but like, actually maybe that's exactly how it's supposed to be. You know what I mean? Um, so many places we can go. But I, I actually want to con like answer your question [00:12:00] Kylie, your original question, which is this idea of like, so how do we cultivate that, that courage? Was that kind of like your question and so, or how do, and even like how do we show up really, I think is, and um, you know, Federico you're talking about, well, self-love is the, the key and I 100% agree with you.
And I think what that looks like though, in terms of like, okay, so you know, I'm gonna do the practical Capricorn thing where I break this down into like, um, actionable things. It really is a combination of like nervous system work. Because essentially when you are fucking freaking out and you feel like a piece of shit, or you feel self-conscious, you have to know how to find safety in your body.
Um, I think it's, I mean it's, it's so, it's so many things, but it's, and Federer, Rico, you could probably speak to this too, cuz these are the things that we're teaching in the course. It's like, um, Knowing, I mean, knowing how to be with your emotions, like shame and guilt and badness [00:13:00] and, um, you know, because every time you step up courageously, what's happening is you're upleveling and there's no, every up level there's discomfort.
So you're gonna feel these big emotions. And so part of it is like, so how can we learn to be with them so that they don't swallow as whole?
Kyley: I ask a question? Um, how would you guys define self-love? Because I think that you made a really good point, Eva, when you were saying like that self-love in some ways is this, like, is so, it's like so common as a, as a term that we don't take it seriously in some ways. And I actually remember, I don't know if you remember this, but back when even I first met, if you don't know, the way, the way even I met is that Eva was my coach, um, many lifetimes ago.
A k a six years ago.
Eva: Yeah.
Kyley: And, and I remember you said something at the time, so like, so at this point I w well, [00:14:00] you know, I was had like, I had so much, the, the inner critic was so loud I couldn't differentiate that that wasn't my voice. Right. Just to give you, to place the, that me in context and uh, I remember you saying something about like, yeah, well all of my clients, um, tend to be people who are on a journey about self-love.
And I was like, psh. Well I guess I'm the outlier cause I'm fine with self love. on me. Um, and, but I think about that often because of course your medicine is self-love among other things. And of course I then was so hungry and desperate for that. And also I still am and forever will be. But I think, I think I'm curious to give a moment to like actually, like, let you peel off the layers of what we think self-love is and allow it to show, to see what, how you really see it.
Eva: Thank you for this [00:15:00] question, Kylie. Such a good one. And I know Federico, you have a lot to say on this cuz we've talked about this a lot. But before we get into this, I just wanna add one more thing about like the how. Um, I will say, and this is something that Federer Rico has taught me, which has been really interesting to watch, is also this what, you know, i p F, which is idealized parent pro, uh, idealized parent.
Federico: Figure protocol.
Eva: protocol. Yes. And it's like, have, you know, it's, it's a little bit like inner child work, but it really is. I mean, you can, here, maybe you can explain it better ego, because, um, I think the people with like a lot of trauma, this can be really helpful.
Federico: Yeah. So in a nutshell, it's about devising, uh, idealized parent figures who are ideally suited for us, who are just right to help us feel. The five key components of [00:16:00] secure attachment. Attachment is our ability to bond with, you know, our caregivers early on in life and to form relationships, um, you know, as adults.
And, and so there are five things that we need to feel in childhood in order to, you know, really be healthy, um, as adults in more than one way, right? Not just psychologically healthy, but even physically healthy. Um, these things tie together. And so the ideal parent figure protocol is, um, something that was devised among others by, um, someone called, uh, Dan Brown, um, who really inspired himself also, um, from Tibetan Buddhism and Deity practice.
So, you know, having figures onto which you can project all the qualities that, that are needed. And so with I P F, we can bring love to the wounds that our inner child [00:17:00] carries, and it's one of the most transformative practices that I have ever come across. And I have learned it from our mentor. Um, Amma Santi, Eva,
Eva: Who's gonna, she's gonna be on the podcast.
Federico: oh, amazing.
I can't wait to listen to that
one.
Yeah, I p f is what has allowed me to on some really deep seated trauma that I was carrying around, um, since childhood. And that was preventing me from showing up authentically in the world. And that was preventing me from being courageous and uh, and all of that. so I think when it comes to the how of self-love, this is a.
Revolutionary tool, um, in, in my experience with myself and with clients that I have shared this with. Um, and Eva, you obviously have had your experience [00:18:00] with, uh, with I P F, and it's been quite powerful for you as well, right?
Eva: Yeah. Yeah. I mean, particularly because a lot of my trauma is parent trauma. It's like, it's the, you know, it's the, you know, the childhood trauma from growing up in an alcoholic household. Yeah.
Kyley: You know, I don't, I don't know about this other than what you've mentioned, but, um, it occurs to me that one of the things that can be really hard is how quick we are to discredit what we need. Right? It's like, oh, I want comfort. I shouldn't want that comfort. Right? And what I. Love about what you're speaking to is, it feels like a way to honor that.
Of course, you want, hun. Of course you want comfort or of course you want care. Or of course you want validation, right? I was just talking about this with someone just the other day, right? It's like I can feel how much I want validation, and we know that like I quote unquote shouldn't need validation. And so the knee jerk reaction is to like talk ourselves out of [00:19:00] it.
And I love that what you're speaking to feels like some, like a practice for unearthing and then honoring this hunger for things like, you know, love, care, validation, approval, you know, the whole gamut. And so I love that.
Eva: Yeah. And really just getting, I think what we didn't get when, you know, unless, here's the thing, like I believe anyway, even if you have like perfect parents, quote unquote perfect parents, there's always, I don't know, maybe it's because
Kyley: Oh, I am actively screwing my kids up and I think I'm a really great mom, right? Like.
Eva: yeah, yeah, yeah. And maybe because that's, there's no such thing as per, it's not, yeah, there's no such thing as perfection, whatever, and it's not supposed to be that way, but therefore, the point being that there's something.
To be gained about being able to, you know, imagine your idealized parents to, in giving you what it is that you need and that, that you didn't get as a child, so that you can feel that safety [00:20:00] to forge ahead. Yeah.
Federico: And I'll add that, you know, to our brain, something that we have actually experienced and something that we imagine in the present, they are not that different, right? So we can actually create new pathways in our brains that allow us to have a secure base, a secure emotional home within us, and we're able to create it even if we didn't actually experience it.
And then, you know, what is it like to feel seen? What is it like to feel valued? What is it like to be encouraged to be your best self out there in the world? What is it like to feel soothed when you are having a hard time, even if you didn't experience these things with some guidance, with some support and so on, you can develop. These pathways, create them within you so that when [00:21:00] you're having a hard time, you can come back to this secure home and say, okay, how would I react in this situation? How would I respond if I was coming from this place, from this secure home?
Eva: Yeah. And I think that's a really big deal because, um, if you grew up in a household where your parents were, or you know, or caretakers or maybe were absent or unavailable or could not provide what you needed to develop, Um, fully, a lot of people start off like they don't know how to respond to themselves, and that's why they have these like really intense negative relationships with themselves of, of like self-hate, like, and self-deprecation and self-doubt.
It's like you just don't know how to respond because it was never showed, you were never shown how, and a lot of that is just about you can practice and reprogram. Um, yeah. But I do wanna get back to your second really good [00:22:00] question, Kylie, which is like, how would you describe self-love? Right? So,
Kyley: What is it?
Eva: and I would, oh, I'd love to hear your answer too, Kylie, but we'll have our guest maybe go first.
Federico: Sure. Um, so maybe I'll start with what I think self-love is not. Um, so self-love is not, you know what we. Call self-care these days of like, oh, okay, I'm just gonna go for, uh, you know, something fun. Okay, nothing wrong with something fun, but we're talking about something deeper here, right? It's, we're not talking about going for a manicure or going for pizza and a beer or like, you know, the, that kind of thing.
It ha all of those things have their place. But what we're talking about here, I think starts with self-compassion, which I think is our willingness to open up to our own suffering, to let our hearts be touched by our own suffering. And that takes some courage, right? [00:23:00] It takes some honesty and it takes some, uh, determination and and so on.
And it takes, um, you know, being connected to, um, to our own hearts and, and let them feel, um, their way, uh, through the suffering, right? And, and so self-love is really about can I be so committed to myself that I choose to face things about myself that are difficult, right? And that I choose to bring soothing and love and compassion to things that normally I would rather look away from.
Does that resonate? Yeah.
Eva: Yeah. Yes. Um, and to add to that, I'm really drawn to, you know, when we were creating this program, what came up a lot was this idea of like, [00:24:00] you know, there are different parts of the course, and I think each part really speaks to helping people develop either a sense of self-esteem, self-worth and self-efficacy.
Like those three parts. To me, I'm like, okay, those make up a huge part of, I think, what self-love
Kyley: Can you say those three again?
Eva: Yeah. Self-worth, self-esteem and self-efficacy when there's like some crossover with these things, right? But like self-efficacy being, which is the one I probably struggle with most, which is interesting.
I don't think I have a lack of self-worth. I don't have a, a feeling of like, oh, I don't deserve to take up space in the world because I think I get myself worth from a sense of like, I'm, I exist. And so I don't decide if I'm worthy or not. It's already been decided by my, by nature. And to be clear, even as I say that, I'm like, I'm sure self-worth shows up in other ways, but like self-efficacy, for me, this idea that I can do it, that I'm capable is like the [00:25:00] core, one of the core woundings of my, of, of my, of my life.
And it's just a repeating pattern, speaking to what you were talking about earlier, Kylie, too. It's like, oh, you know, we, we think we get something. Like, I cannot believe the self-love, um, stories or lack of self-love stories that were coming up as I was creating this course because I was like, oh, I thought I had it all figured out.
And, but the truth is, it's like, and as they've come out, come back again. What I realized was, I'm relating to it differently now though. It's like, I can just see that this is just what happens every now and again. Like, I think it's nice to be like, oh, there was a, for a while I was like, oh no, this is a huge problem.
Like something's wrong. And within the past week or so, I've been seeing like, oh, I know I've been here before. And there was a relaxation, which was kind of nice. Cause I'm like, oh yeah, I've been here before and I get it. I don't have to take it so personally. But anyway, that's what it said. So then
Kyley: love those three. Can you, can you, so, so self-worth is like, I, I'm [00:26:00] worthy of existing self-efficacy is like confidence that like, I can actually execute on the thing, I can do the things that I want. What, what, how would you define self-esteem?
Eva: I think self-esteem and, and Federico you're nodding. I'm wondering if you have more to add, but I feel self-esteem is like how you perceive yourself. Um, yeah. Your, your own impression of the self. Like, am I, how do
Kyley: your self narrative.
Eva: Yes. Like, and also me measured, I think by, um,
I don't know, like, do you, like, do you like yourself?
Kyley: Mm-hmm. Mm.
Eva: a little bit different from being like, am I worthy of taking up space or having this position, this, this job or this privilege,
Kyley: Okay. So you're actively blowing my mind, which I fully knew was gonna happen today between the two of you. But, uh, I, I'm also like seeing a link now also between the me from like five years ago who was like, shut [00:27:00] up a self-love problem. Um, because I think I do have a lot of confidence in my, in the, in self-efficacy, right?
Like, I am a very competent person. I trust my abilities. I
Eva: I love about you, Kylie. Like it is so refreshing to be partnered with someone who's just like, yeah. Uh, it's, it's, it's so lovely of someone who, as someone who struggles with self-efficacy to witness, so just
Kyley: you. I mean, it's also to be clear when it comes to like executive function things, the, that's a whole nother bucket. But like, you know, can I do this? I mean, that's like such an A D H D thing. Like, oh, can I sign up for a half marathon and trust myself to do it even though I've only ever run a mile?
Yes. Can I regularly do my dishes? Very suspect, right? But anyway, but I, um, but yeah, anyways, I have, like, I have. Pretty good. Well, of self-efficacy. And I think my, like, narrative of myself is like, no, like I'm a pretty cool person, right? Like I think my self-esteem is, um, like I think of a pretty good self-esteem, but it is the self-worth bucket, [00:28:00] right?
It's like, okay, like I'm cool and I can do great things, but will it be, will it ever be enough? Is basically the loop that I fall into again and again. So, um, yeah, I, I just feel like you're helping me hone in on something that I am really grateful to see clearly. So thanks a bunch.
Eva: Beka, do you wanna add to that?
Federico: just quickly that, um, yes, it, your sense of self-efficacy, uh, really transpires Kylie. Uh, and I, I sense it and, uh, and love that. Um, and when it comes to the self-worth, it's, to me it's really also about I matter, right? My needs matter. I am important. And what I need is important. It matters. And it belongs not only up here in my mind, but out there as something that I communicate, right?[00:29:00]
So if somebody is violating my boundaries, my boundaries are important, my integrity, my wellbeing matters enough for me to actually say something and communicate that. Um, and I think what a lot of us struggle with, um, when we are told to, you know, communicate our boundaries or to be more assertive or, um, you know, to change our communication style, all of these things, we can't just force ourselves to do these things. we develop a sense of self-worth. And many of us never developed it because we lived in dysfunctional homes with, for example, parents who had big emotional swings. And so in order to keep the peace, what do you do? You erase yourself, right? You say, oh no, I don't have needs. I don't need anything just for the love of God, just calm down [00:30:00] and I'm just gonna do anything.
I'm gonna go along with anything. Right?
Eva: I'll make myself small. I'll make my needs small. Yeah.
Federico: and then as an adult, you're like, who, who am I, right? Um, what do I actually want and need? And so on. And then, you know, that, um, has its own evolution, um, you know, with the people that you attract and so on. But that's a whole other discussion.
Eva: Oh yeah. That's interesting. Sorry.
Kyley: I just need, I, I just need to interject to hype you guys up for a second, because this is what I love about you. I was, I've already had like teared up twice so far, so great work, everybody. Um, but this is one of the things that I, I'm so, I feel so grateful for like, humanity, that you guys are teaming up and that this exists in the world because self-love is a topic that can be delivered with a lot of fluff, right?
It is this hugely important thing, [00:31:00] and it is something that you can like, slap on a couple mantras and like, you know, Write a new, pretend you're gonna do a new morning routine for five days until your, you know, willpower burns out. And um, and I think what I'm receiving is just in your like, breakdown of the very term of self-love is just how embodied this work is for both of you.
Right? This wisdom is hard earned and, and, and, and so there's just this depth of compassion and embodiment. And also then this like really incredible ability to take something like self-love that seems almost like kind of vague, right? And like
Eva: Or nebulous.
Kyley: these re nebulous. Yeah. And like slice it into these like very specific things that each of their own deep portal and well, um, yeah man, you two are like fucking good at what you do.
Eva: Oh,
Kyley: So everybody just [00:32:00] hit pause, hit pause right now, go sign up for the course and then come back and listen to the rest of the interview.
Eva: Kylie. Uh, the ultimate hype girl. I love you.
Federico: Thank you, Kylie.
Eva: Um, can we also talk about, okay, so yeah, and there's all these different ways in which like, our self, we ha we, so like, you know, if we can feel like self like efficacy, like we got this and that I am worthy of being here and I'm worthy, and my needs are worthy and also I like myself, like that's a great combination of like self-love and yeah, there's all these ways in which, uh, you know, these stories or, you know, we don't develop these things.
I think when we're younger. Um, I can name so many like, yes, it, yeah, there's so many ways. And listeners, you probably know your own story, but. Going along with this idea of self-esteem. I think one way that something I just wanna, uh, talk in detail more about is about the story of badness. And cuz this has showed up for Fedco and I a lot, and I think this relates to our [00:33:00] sense of self-esteem.
Like, it's not just like, do I like myself of a person, but like, do I trust that I'm a good person? And, um, you know, that's the weird thing is like, intellectually I can believe that I'm a good person, but, and, but that's the other core story and core wounding that shows up for me all the time is like, I, you know, I, I feel bad or I am bad.
I really just this belief of like, I am bad. Like intellectually, I'm like, okay, I'm a good person, I have a strong moral compass, blah, blah, blah. But at the same time, every time I come back to a sense of smallest smallness and fear, it's because I'm like, oh, I'm a shitty person. Or like, if I do, if I choose myself, I'm gonna hurt someone else and therefore I am bad.
And that's, I think, a huge piece of the self-love thing too. Cause I think in so many ways we all have a story. Not, not everybody, I think there's some well-adjusted folks out there. Lucky you guys who don't have a story of badness. But it also shows up, you know, we've talked about this on the podcast before, [00:34:00] church trauma, uh, sexual assault, sexual abuse, like, yeah, like when, yeah, just so many different ways in which we internalize badness.
And it's really heartbreaking.
Federico: Yeah. Um, I would love to jump in and, um, you know, illustrate one way in which we develop this idea of badness and how it kind of shows up. There's this idea of object relations, which is something that refers to what we do as very young children and babies where we can't differentiate between ourselves and mom or dad or you know, the, the person that's taking care of us.
And so when our caregiver is having a hard time and you know, is disregulated, we can't distinguish that the other person is having a hard time and we're [00:35:00] okay. We assume that are bad and that is why the person in front of us is having a hard time and. Understanding that, that there is a deep, deep part of me that, you know, is, is almost, or not almost, it's, it's a preverbal kind of feeling that I developed back then.
Um, understanding that that sense of badness is a story, it's a construct, it's something that can be dismantled. That has been one of the most liberating things ever because so many of us, and I was, you know, and still am, um, to a certain degree, but so many of us walk around with an idea that, you know, if we put ourselves out there at a certain point, we're gonna be found out for just how shitty, you know we are and the [00:36:00] imposters that we are.
Kyley: was literally witnessing this yesterday. Carry on.
Eva: Oh, that's so interesting. Cause I was actually gonna ask Kylie if you, if this is something that shows up for, for you.
Kyley: Oh, yeah. I don't wanna, I don't mean to like, like segue the, I just, what you're
speaking to is so fucking relatable,
Eva: yeah, I genuinely, genuinely wanted to know because sometimes I'm like, dude, sometimes I'm like, does everyone feel this way? I don't know. I, I, it's such a strong story for me that I'm like, I just assume everyone feels this way. But I also know that not everyone has the same trauma, so, you know, some people don't.
Kyley: so I actually was just like, I actually think everyone has some level of this story because our world is ordered on separation other, right? Like our, our language is rooted in this like
Federico: I'm clapping.
Kyley: capitalism,
Eva: Yeah. Colonialism is Exactly, yeah.
Federico: preach.
Kyley: your like nuclear family manages to like be this like perfect little bubble of, you know, [00:37:00] love, you exist in a world that is rooted in like, creating these narratives and experiences of badness and trauma and shame.
So I think some, some of us got a bigger doth than others, but I don't, I don't think that it's a, yeah, I don't think it's a thing that's like, oh, I had a happy childhood, therefore this doesn't affect me. And I think that that's actually a myth I watch sometimes. Some people that are, are dear to me who had the kind of childhood that was like, fine, right?
Like, you know, that kind of childhood that's like, there's no explosion, there's no, like, you know, there's nothing dramatic happening. And also no one's actually paying attention to anyone's feelings, right?
That's its own really complicated. That was not my childhood. There was a lot of tension to feelings and also lots of explosions. But, um, but like I I, people who are dear to me who come from that background, I've watched them really struggle to even like, [00:38:00] let their struggle with this badness story be legitimate, right? Because it's like, I was fine. I got what I needed. Even as like, did you,
Eva: Mm-hmm. Yeah. Yeah. Such a good point.
Kyley: that's a little bit of a,
Eva: yeah. No, but yes, but I, but, but also I agree. Capitalism, colonialism, the patriarchy, the system, it's like, yes, religion, it just enforces, badness. And so, but I will say maybe, so for some people, it may not be the word badness. I think I had very, someone, someone very close to me who I actually didn't, they, they didn't feel that they related to the story of badness, but their story was like, there's something wrong with me.
Which is kind of the same thing. Yeah. Um, anyway, sorry, Federico, were you saying something?
Federico: No, that, that, that's, that's it really. I love that you guys, you know, uh, have broken down so many different facets of this and Yeah. To, for a lot of people, I think there's that feeling of something is wrong with me. There's something defective [00:39:00] that is irreparable that just cannot be fixed, and there's no hope for me.
Right. I, I just can never be good enough. So I might as well just give up on, you know, my dreams or my needs and, and so on, because I don't really deserve it because I, I'm, I'm just not good enough incapable of being good enough. And that's such a destructive story, and we can break free from it, and it can be one of the most life-changing things ever, um, to happen to someone.
Kyley: I'm so glad you're speaking to this, and I think, I think another common response, again, I'm just sharing my own, is like, I'm, I'm never good enough and so I have to keep going. Like I can't, like, it's like the like kind of mad hair. Like I cannot stop, I have to keep going. I have to keep proving, I have to keep earning, I have to keep fixing because if I stop, it will catch up with me that I'm a [00:40:00] fraud, that I'm not good enough, right?
That that's when everyone discovered and I feel like. Those are two common P pathways, right? One is like, I'm just, I'm just gonna give up. And the other is like, don't stop.
Federico: yes.
Kyley: And, and I think one of the things I really love about what you guys are speaking to is that, you know, what I'm hearing you speak to is like, we can dive into these places where we think badness lives and like, almost like rescue these parts of ourselves, right? And I find, and so like that is a tremendous act of self love.
And the only armor you have going into those dark places is self love. The only way I'm ever able to go into these scary places and do this kind of like healing and caretaking is because I've learned to love myself. And so it's like this delicious [00:41:00] cycle that I'm seeing that you're offering us, which is like the, the medicine and the path are the same thing.
Federico: So well put Kylie. Um, so incredible and yes, it, it's, it's one of those things that. Builds on itself, right? Just like there are downward spirals of shame and self-loathing and all of that, and that'll make you sicker and more depressed and less capable of showing up in the world. There's a positive upward spiral that says, I love myself, I love this part of me as well.
And yes, I can show up and, you know, uh, be present with all of my vulnerabilities and, and so on. And look, I just did it. I, I showed up and, you know, I'm still here. Um, I enforced a boundary and I'm still here. I, uh, took a risk and I'm still here. Can I love [00:42:00] myself, uh, even more and use this as a stepping stone and create this virtuous, um, circle.
Um, so love it.
Eva: Yeah. Okay. Well I like where this, the direction that this conversation is going. Cause I feel like we spend a lot of time sort of like outlining what lack of self-love looks like, how painful it is, what the suffering looks like. I kind of wanna spend a little bit ta tough time talking about what does the power part mean?
Right. So what
Kyley: what's the payoff?
Eva: What's the payoff? Like we're loving ourselves into power. So like, what's different? What changes like, I don't know. You know what I mean? Like, I think there's, there's magic in talking about the re the relief and the liberation and the joy and what's possible and what changes.
So
Kyley: Can I layer in a question to that, which is, can I also ask you to, since I'm apparently I'm big on define the term tonight, but then you also like speak to what you mean by power? Cuz that feels like another word that I'm like, oh yeah. And also, oh, that means so many things and I [00:43:00] think it's actually really scary to a lot of us, the whole notion of power.
So yeah. Can I ask you to speak to what the fuck power is?
Eva: Yeah. Do you want me, you, I, I mean, okay. To be honest, like power is something that I am still playing around with and I really think it is Feder, Rico's heard me talk about this. I think everyone has their own definition of, of power, but when I like drop into my body and I feel what power feel feels like for me in an embodied sense, it's like very clear, very simple, very focused.
I just am like, it's, this is gonna, I don't know, I don't know why this analogy is coming up, this is gonna sound very silly, but for Harry Potter fans, for people who listen to Harry Potter or have read Harry Potter, whatever. Um, double Dora, you guys, do you guys know the story right? Do you two? Okay. So there's Dumble dor.
Dumble do is like the greatest wizard of all time. [00:44:00] He's super powerful. But he shows up calm and clear. And yeah, if there was an archetype of powerful, I feel like Dumbledore is this, just like wise, I don't even know his pre presence. He's just super present. And I share this because I think oftentimes we get this story of like what a girl boss looks like, or like, ugh, I don't know, this power thing.
This idea of like, we, we have to be in a power suit or whatever. Or we have to like, I don't know, but that's, that's not my, that's not like what it looks like for me. Um, and also it really is like when I feel like I can do it, I have a sense of self-efficacy that I'm worthy and also that I really like, love and, and appreciate and enjoy myself.
And then I'm a, and I'm a good person. I just feel like love just radiates from me. [00:45:00] And that to me is the most powerful thing in the whole world. It's like I'm available for all of life and I'm available for the people around me. And it's such a joy in comparison to the suffering that I was stuck in for so long.
Federico: I love this so much and what you say, Eva reminds me of the Daoist concept of the Doo right, of there is a way things want to be, and we find our power when we allow ourselves to align with the way things want to be right, with our purpose, with, uh, um, without resisting, without trying to impose things on the world, without trying to force ourselves into a straight jacket.
Um, you know, that might just be that power suit that, that you were talking about. Um, and [00:46:00] so when we are connected, we are powerful. When we are connected with our deepest nature, with our sense of quickness, with the way things want to be, um, and that authenticity within us, that's when we find our power.
And actually, I have a bit of a story, um, that I would love to share. Um, yeah.
Eva: I love a good story story time.
Federico: great. Um, so I was meditating with some psilocybin a while ago. And this vision came to me very clearly, very detailed. And immediately as I was seeing this, I had to draw it, um, because it was that important. And what I saw was that the earth is really a metaphor for reality itself.
So, you know, in, in Buddhism, um, and in [00:47:00] other traditions, there's this concept of, uh, Maya's veil, right? The veil, the barrier between the world that we see, where we see separation and objects that are reified, they're things right that seem separate from us. Um, and, and then underneath the veil, there's the deeper layers of reality, right?
Um, where, you know, the deeper you look, the more you realize that we're actually just one, right? Um, and that space time and, and so on. They're just, you know, manifestations of something that is one and complete. And in this vision, the crust of the earth was, may as veil and. It felt as though I had, and we are all trees in this vision.
Okay? And it felt as [00:48:00] though that day I had grown roots that went all the way down to the core of the earth, um, and the oneness there. And so the oneness spoke to me and it told me, congratulations, you have reached the oneness. You're welcome back anytime you want. But this is not your time yet to just melt into the oneness.
I know you want to, but you have to go back up because you got work to do. And your roots are very deep today. But look at your branches. They're all half broken. You all have all these parasites sucking out, you know, energy from you and fungus growing all over you. And the energy that you're able to draw through your roots right now, your job is now to circulate it through your branches, through your leaves, so that you actually bring the power that [00:49:00] you sense in the deeper dimension, the power of that oneness, the power of God, if you will.
Um, the power of the universe. Bring that into, Your body, the structures of your psychology and your ego and so on. And that is a big part of the work that allowed me to, um, you know, heal so much of the trauma that, uh, that I was carrying. And a big part of the motivation behind this course is finding a way to help people connect with that love and that power and that energy that exists that, you know, is the deepest truth of who we are and circulated through the structures of their egos and personalities and, you know, their self-worth and self-efficacy and, uh, self-esteem and, you know, the way they communicate and, and so on and so forth. So, thoughts, reactions.
Kyley: Oh, friend. I love everything you [00:50:00] spoke to so much. I am such a deep personal relationship to it too, because I have been. Um, uh, listeners know, cause I reference it every once for a while, but I've been on a journey of, of like tending to some stuff that's been going on somatically for a while, and it always comes back to my feet and roots, like it just like again and again and again.
And these really potent ways has been like this, like image, like roots and like the med one, a metaphor that's shown up for me and this like physical healing journey has been, um, uh, like you don't, you're, you're, I've been basically like coiled all my roots into my own feet, right? And I'm, and that the work has been like, what if you didn't coil them up?
Okay, now what if you let them go into the earth? Okay. What if you let them stay in the earth? So, um, I just am really like, relishing. I'm just like, yeah, I'm just [00:51:00] relishing your story because it has many layers that are kind of like swirling through in this moment. So I don't think, I don't know if I have a good question to ask other than just being like, oh damn good mushrooms and.
Eva: I mean, I mean, I'm, you know, Yeah, I, I'm, I'm just, I'm just so touched by what you shared and Yeah. I don't even know if I have a good follow up to that either, because I, I think like, I don't know, I think there's different ways in which power and self-love can show up, and I think there's some very practical important ways, meaning like, it means that we can, like, do the things that we want to do.
And I say that with like such, I don't say that lightly. That's a big deal. I mean, like, you know, as someone who held herself back for so long, or even just like e everything that I wanted to do, it was so I did it, but it was so fucking hard because I fought [00:52:00] myself every step of the way and I doubted myself every step of the way.
So sometimes it can show up as something practical, like, you know, can't I just do this thing? And then I also think there's this, what you're speaking to better ego. It's just like this, I don't, I don't even know how you describe, it's just like this beautifully energetic, you know, as Kylie you would say, uh, beneath language or, you know, sense in which the power, we can feel ex and experience power, I think in our bodies and, and higher levels.
Kyley: Yeah. I think of when I think of power, which really tracks to your your story too, Federico. It's like, when I think of power, power, like rises up from, it does, it does rise up from beneath, right? Like when I am, when I'm grasping and controlling and like kind of masquerading at being powerful, right?
That's [00:53:00] when I like, am reaching out. I'm, I'm, I'm sticking my hand up in the air, everybody, right? And I'm like trying to pull something down on like down to me, this is, this is my own experience, right? Other people might have a different physical experience, but for me, those are the moments where I'm tr I'm like trying to like, like, almost like desperately pull everything around into me.
Um, but that's, it's like false power or like an illusion of power, right? Um, it could also be an illusion of like love or money or magic, right? Like they're all the same thing. when I think of, when I, when I actually feel like I'm touching into like the, the power that I'm like, oh, right, this is power.
It comes up from beneath and like, and up from up from the inner most parts of me. Um, and also there's no make, there's no like making it happen, [00:54:00] right? To what you just shared fedie about. Like there's a way things want to be, it's like. You, you, you can't, you don't create it. It already exists. You kind of just like stop standing in the way.
Federico: Yes.
Eva: Yes, yes. Like big head nods over here.
Federico: Oh yes. You know, um, I think that goes both for the physical health and for the emotional health and, you know, our relationships and so on. Can we allow this power, this energy to just flow through us and, you know, both within our bodies, but also connecting us to the world. Right? And so the way this, what this looks like in, in practice, I think is exactly what you said, Kylie.
There is a way in which we think that we have to force things that we have to control, and [00:55:00] that is just not how it works. I keep learning this lesson over and over and, you know, I learned it with the body. I thought that I had to force it to do things that it couldn't do. And then when I started just allowing things to flow within me and my body to just reorganize and, you know, with all kinds of practices getting out of the way, as you said, then.
I got better. And we were recently having this conversation with Eva. We compartmentalize and we think, okay, I can allow myself to kind of let things flow and, and, and so on in one domain, but no, when it comes to work and when it comes to money, when it comes to whatever, then I have to, you know, really be controlling and, you know, have a tight grip on things.
And that's just not how it works there either. I keep learning this lesson over and over, and so there's, there's something bigger and that is at play here. And my invitation, [00:56:00] um, to anyone who's listening is if you feel like you have a calling, if you feel like things are meant to go in a certain direction for you, if there's something that you want to accomplish in life, if there's something that is important and you feel like things are just off, the invitation is to practice self-love and see the places in which you might be holding on too tight.
Right? And. In what ways are you perhaps out of fear? Trying to hold onto a story of how you have to control things and how you have to make things happen, and what happens if you actually let yourself trust a little bit more and allow things to happen? And that's a big conversation, but the [00:57:00] invitation is there, I guess.
Eva: Yeah. Wait.
Kyley: I would add the pathway to trust is self-love, right? So if you're a listening listener, if you're like, yes, I will, I'll have what? I'll have what he's having, like the, the, at least for me, the only way, like, like trust just keeps being about love and allowing and loving my, like, allowing love, loving myself, allowing love, love.
But like, that's what, that's the path of trust, at least for me.
Eva: Yeah. I will. I will say though, I'm loving this conversation. There's this whole, I think I brought it up before, there's a book called Force V, power versus Force. Force versus Power, something like that. I have not read the whole thing cuz it's really dense, but one of the big, the whole, a lot of the premises, like, it's, it's actually been really helpful for me to notice and just to track am I doing something out of force or am I doing something from a place of power?
I actually like, I have some sticky notes and one of them on there is like, you know, like, [00:58:00] like move from power, not from force. And then I'll use that as a barometer to check in, to be like, wait, am I doing this? I'm a place of power, a place of force. And so again, another invitation of our listeners is just that, like, you, you can ask yourself this question and, and then feel the answer and just trust your awareness.
Because I think sometimes it'll feel really obvious. Like you're just, you can, because you, we know what force feels like and it's exhausting and it's, ugh. Like it's just, I hate that feeling, you know? It's, it's exhausting. It's scarcity, there's tension, blah, blah, blah, blah. But power when I'm like, oh wait, how can I do this?
From power? It feels like relief. It feels like I'm in my body instead of in my head, it feels like I have my, I can call all my energy back. There's an easefulness there. And then also then how I perceive changes or how I, how I perceive the situation changes too. Um, yeah, it's just really, yeah, it's a little bit of a gift.
It's been a gift [00:59:00] for me, not to say that I don't get caught up in force like all the damn time. Yeah.
Federico: it comes back to fear versus love. Um, am I acting out of fear, uh, or out of love? Or another way that I like to put it is, am I acting out of a sense of deficiency? Like I'm trying to fill a void in my hierarchy of needs, for example, like the self-esteem, right? Am I doing this project because I'm trying to prove to the world that I am good and capable and so on and desperately trying to get people's approval?
And in that way I'm moving out of fear and forcing things to happen and, and so on. Or do I have a solid sense of self-esteem or, you know, do I have the capability to work with my deficiency, right? Uh, and bring love when it's needed so that when I go out into the world, I can act out of a sense of coherence that [01:00:00] I'm doing this project, for example, at work, because.
It is deeply aligned with who I am and with what is important to me and with, again, what is deeply in my nature, the way things want to be for me, right? Or you know, what I am meant to, um, to contribute. And then that's a very different energy you could be doing, you know, something very similar in, in both, um, situations and have a completely different experience and a completely different result.
Eva: Yeah. How you relate to it can be completely different. Um, Kylie, I wanna ask you actually, I mean, uh, again, this might be a hard question to answer off the cuff, but like, do you have, how would you describe power
Kyley: mm. Well, I really, really, really love your force versus power, which you have mentioned in yet mentioned before. And also every time you bring it back up, I'm like, oh yeah, yeah, that's good. Um, and [01:01:00] I actually, as part of this kind of somatic healing I've been doing recently, realized how much I clench my muscles to make things happen, right?
Like my body is like, oh, we want something. Alright, let's get like real tight and real uncomfortable. And then if we're like maximum discomfort and pain, then we'll let go and have like, and then like let, and I'm just, which is bonkers. And no wonder like, you know, no wonder if my body hurts, right? Because I've been doing that for over 30 years.
Um, uh, and so I have been like really trying to like, this is a kind of a newer, newer realization. The extent of it probably even that is like just a tip in the iceberg. Um, you can see Fedie, we was excited to have him on the podcast, so I was like, oh, there, I'm like swimming in his zone of genius, so I need some fedie magic.
So anyway, [01:02:00] um, um, um, what was I gonna say? Oh, so anyways, um, I, I was, I was watching how. Deeply this idea of like force and power feel like, like cross wires, you know what I mean? And I feel like that feels like another thing of like, once again, it's like soft is strong. Like allowing is the shortcut to being power is, is a shortcut to power.
Um, and so yeah, so I, I feel like I'm just really resonating with everything that you're describing about power. And I think I have like a clarity of breath that shows up in my heart center in particular when I feel in a place of power, which is I think really actually just a place of connectivity, like connection and trust, you know, because [01:03:00] I feel connected to the earth beneath me to go back to your story.
And I trust that connection. And so I don't need to force and I'm not in controlling mode, and I can be compassionate to my fear. Um, and so the Mitel is always, is always that like quality of breath and it's, yeah, it feels really connected to connectivity and trust.
Eva: Yeah. Okay. I wanna, I wanna add something to that, cause I think this question has been really helpful for me. You know, allowing me to dive deeper into this concept of power. And something that I realized is, so to contradict what we said at the top of the show, you know, what courageousness is. Sometimes it, you know, courageous means.
Courageousness means that you, you do the thing that you wanna do or the thing that's in integrity with you, and sometimes it's still messy and icky, and uncomfortable, and vulnerable, blah, blah, blah. And that is 100% true. I think sometimes [01:04:00] being in your power means that you have to do the hard thing, which will then ask you, you know, to experience these things. And, and I also feel, what I've been noticing these past few weeks is like when I feel powerful, a different version of this is sometimes it's just the absence of worry. It's the absence, it's the absence of something. And that is, oh, I cannot tell you. So fucking refreshing again. And I'm very like, adamant about this because I'm very, um, just attuned to the fact that that's suffering.
Like the worrying that we do, the doubt that we have the negative self-talk, like that's violence against ourselves. And I, I actually think it takes a certain amount of awareness to notice that, because I, I have talked to so many people, clients who are like, no, I don't experience that as suffering, but I'm like, girl, that's fucking suffering. Like, cause you [01:05:00] can be without it, you don't know yet. Because like when you're without it, then you are like, oh, the comparison you can see.
And so anyway, the worrying, the self-doubt, the. The fear, the judgment, the comparison, blah, blah, the noise, the chatter, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. It's, you know, like, it's so exhausting. And I think when I'm in power, it's just the absence of those things, which is why I go back to the dumble door, like analogy and archetype.
It's like, he's just chilling. He's chilling, he's present, he's not intimidated, you know, he's like focused, clear. And I think that's just, you know, I, I, the, the liberation that I'm always looking for.
Federico: I love what you said, Eva, and I want to add following in that we are all, you know, walking a, um, or maybe that's not the right metaphor, but we are trying to find a balance, I [01:06:00] guess, between fully accepting ourselves just as we are and allowing room for growth, right? And so I was reading in this book about Zen saying that said, you are perfect as you are and you could use some work. And uh, and you know, it's one of those kind of zen paradoxes that, um, I find really, really beautiful. And, and so, you know, there is a way to allow for that growth that doesn't come from a place of self-condemnation and you know, you are defective and you need to fix yourself and so on. But just allowing a bud to flourish really.
Um, and yeah, so I think part of our intention with the course is to allow just that, um, for, for our students. Yeah.
Eva: Yeah.
Kyley: And I feel like actual growth. Needs self-love. Right? [01:07:00] So my son is six and so we're, we're learning to write. He already can read and he's like, reach that stage where he can read enough and he's like, can like lose himself in these graphic novels and we'll like read It's the cutest thing in the world. Um, and um, anyway, so we were, we were practicing writing the other day we do this thing cause he doesn't love it cuz it's really hard for him.
And, um, but he does we'll come up with like lists. He like, feels like important and so we'll, so we were writing lists. Everyone picked a thing they wanted to do on Saturday and he was writing them down. Like one was ice cream, one was playing Legends of Zelda. So anyway, he, his sisters was spiders, which was a game made game she'd made out.
So he's going to write an s and he wrote a backwards s and immediately he was just like, no one, no one's gonna be able to read this. I like, I have to start, I don't wanna do this anymore. Which I knew like the, I I, as soon as the s went backwards, I knew what we were in for. Right. [01:08:00] And we like coached him through it and I wanted him to finish it.
Cuz I just want, like, I'm, I have like, I'm a big believer on like, leave on a good note, you know what I mean? Like, I, the letters aren't important, but like, I don't wanna like create a story that you clinging to that like you suck at writing right.
Eva: Wait, this is just, I just have to interject. Are you thinking the same thing? Better go.
Federico: Oh my God. That's crazy. Yeah. You're the, the parent that I needed. Uh, it's, sorry. I'll just say that we had a whole conversation with Eva the other day, um, working on some of my, uh, trauma and I. Was telling her about, um, all the armor that I developed over the years because, uh, my dad is a very impatient person.
God love him. He's amazing on a million fronts, but he gets angry really fast. He has zero patience. And so I was going through some memories, including me at three years [01:09:00] old, writing a backwards e and, um, you know, just fearing the wrath or, or like the lack of patience, right? And later at 18 years old, you know, learning how to drive, um, and you know, not knowing how to balance the clutch and the accelerator and so on.
And so what you just said, I was just coaching him through it, and I was patient and I wanted to leave on a good note and, and all of this, that is exactly what, um, I was doing to kind of reparent myself and say, okay, this is, you know, it's okay to learn. It's okay to draw things backwards. It's so on behalf of, uh, you know, your children.
Um, I feel confident in saying that you're, you're doing such an incredible thing there. So,
Kyley: I'm doing some things right. Other things we're not so sure on. But thank you. I, um, oh. Yeah, man. Well, and I mean, thank you for sharing that. And I, I, [01:10:00] I love you having access to going back to bring kindness to your little three-year-old self because Oh yeah. The vulnerability
Eva: know, and also these things are real, like these little moments you're having, you know, with your kids are just, ugh. So beautiful and impactful.
Kyley: I did have a moment where I was, it just isn't aside, I was, we were flying home. We actually went to Italy and we were flying home from Italy and it was like a, it was a, that, it was a really shitty travel day. And I was like furious cuz it was all the airlines fault. And I was just like, didn't have food, which is like the thing that makes me mad.
And I was just like the, I couldn't get over being in a bad mood and my son and I was like, you know guys, I'm sorry. I know I'm in a terrible mood. Like, I'm sorry. You know, I just was like trying to communicate to them like I know I'm being a grmp. And, um, and my son goes, yeah, mom, usually you're the one who's like, what did he say?
Usually you're the one who's saying enjoy the little things. And I was like, okay, well I love that. That's my [01:11:00] reputation. Great. Okay. Keep it up.
Federico: That's
Kyley: But anyway, the thing I wanted to share was that, um, I watched the second he did the backwards ass, he had no ability to learn anymore, right? Like, like it was all of his.
All of his energy was focused on like, I don't wanna do this anymore. This is hard. I'm bad, this is wrong. Right. And so there was no, like, to your point about growth, right? Like there's nothing wrong with you and you could like use some fixing, right? Or like some growth. Like there was no room for growth until we could like pop him back into the place of feeling loved.
Right? So once again, yes, there's nothing wrong and we can all keep growing and de you have self-love has to be the soil. Otherwise like just, you're just stuck.
Eva: Yeah. Yeah. Which is why, so there's, you know, I wrote about this yesterday, but I, I, I just know from personal experience that you can only love yourself into change. You can only love yourself [01:12:00] into growth and, and liberation. Like, cuz I've tried to do it through self-criticism. Do you know what I mean?
Like, I think that's how we're conditioned to do it. That's how I was conditioned to do it. I, I really tried and it just didn't,
Federico: yes.
Eva: fucking didn't work. If it would've worked, if, yeah, if it would've worked, I'd, you know, we'd all be in, in different places,
Kyley: if it would've worked to order by now.
Eva: Yeah. Exactly. Exactly. Yeah. So love needs to be the base For sure.
For sure.
Kyley: Yeah.
Eva: Um,
Kyley: On that note, I'm having a follow up question unless you looked like you were gonna say something, Eva.
Eva: Oh, no, I was gonna, I was trying to find a, a good way to transition to the follow up question, so you did it better than I did.
Kyley: Great. Okay. So my question is, echoing back to something you said a while ago, which is like, What's the upside? Right? Like what actually becomes possible? Especially because I do think a lot of us walk around not knowing what we don't know. Right? And that's, I feel like I'm constantly have some big breakthrough in life and I'm like, [01:13:00] oh, this was possible.
Like I assume, remember the first time I got glasses and I was like, you can see the leaps. So, so I would love fedie. I'll throw to you first, since you're our guest, if you could share with us a little bit of, obviously it's like a massive story, but like a snippet of your experience in this journey of learning how to love yourself.
Federico: Thank you. Yeah. Um, I would say everything about who I am today was made possible through this kind of self-love. Um, You know, and lots of other things that, that have helped as well and other people that have contributed to my journey. But, uh, my health and the fact that I was able to completely rewire my nervous system after, for years I was unable to speak, to walk that was made possible by self-love, [01:14:00] by self-compassion, by saying yes to my experience, including as much of it as possible, and stopping the war against myself within myself, right?
That was really the first step. I have been in a, um, I was in, in a, a, um, trauma bond, um, an abusive relationship for, uh, close to three years, and it was a very painful chapter in my life. And it was just me reenacting all the ways in which I, throughout childhood learned to, you know, find safety by erasing myself, by submitting to somebody else's whims and wants and needs.
Um, and it was really destructive and happy to report that. Uh, I am [01:15:00] now in a very healthy, loving, supportive relationship with my husband. Because I was able to work through, uh, what needed to be worked through, through self-love, and I could keep going. The fact that I'm here with you guys, the, the work that I do with clients, it is all possible because I was able to work through my trauma, um, hold myself with compassion and kindness, uh, and show up here.
So it, it is what has transformed my life. Yeah. How about you?
Eva: Oh gosh. Um, I, it's so funny. I, I knew that we would maybe talk about this on the podcast and yet I don't have anything prepared. And just hearing you talk was like really harken back a lot of like, stories of my own destructive behavior. and I might get emotional because I'm like, definitely gonna get my period tomorrow, I think, if not tomorrow than the day after.
It's just like a full [01:16:00] on emotional hormonal day. But, um, Yeah, I think the way, okay, I'll say this, A lack of self-love made it so that I was in not good relationships. Cause when you don't love yourself, you know, obviously you're gonna pick people who mirror that back and you what, you know, self-esteem, like, well, all those things, right?
Like, and yeah, I ended up dating this guy who I was like in love with and then he ended up cheating on me with my, like, one of my best friends at the time. Just like a very toxic situation. And that was definitely because I was also a toxic person because I like, didn't love myself anyway. It was just like all this toxicity, um, and also lack of self-love made it so that I just didn't have the confidence to do a lot of the things that I wanted to do in life.
And, um, you [01:17:00] know, showing up, like creating anything. Um, I just really held myself back a a lot because I was afraid of failure because if I failed, it would, it would confirm the story that I couldn't, that I was incapable, right? So like, that's so much of what I see in other people too, is like, the reason we're afraid of failure or the reason we don't try is cause we're afraid.
Afraid of failure because then it confirms our deepest fear. Um, And then also like then kicking myself in the, like, wanting to be like being ambitious and wanting to do things, but then not, not having the courage to, and then, and then berating myself afterwards because I like couldn't do it. And I had these expectations of myself.
But, um, it really, yeah, I don't know. There was something else I was gonna say about like how, how lack of self-love. I mean, there's just so many ways. Um, I just remember finding a journal of mine one time and just the language that I [01:18:00] use to talk to myself. Just being like, you're a fucking idiot. You're a p, like you're a piece of shit is, again, also one of my like, core stories.
And that's, that's a, that's pretty harsh language, but that is definitely like, that's like childhood abuse type, like, okay, you are really unworthy, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. And I just like picked it up and just started crying because it was like that first realization of like, this is such a painful way to live.
And not really having that awareness, but then seeing it on paper being like, oh, I am, this is suffering. Like this is a painful way to live. And then, and you know, as you guys both know, the awareness of something oftentimes is like the catalyst for change. And so that was kind of a big poignant moment for me.
Um, gosh, just, you know, lack of self-love seeps into every aspect of our lives and it just is like not fun being you. And then I think what is possible then, you know, after talking about like, this is bittersweet, like the bitter side, what is the sweet side of this is [01:19:00] like, yeah, once I started loving myself and respecting myself more, just being in healthier relationships, having healthier friendships, you know, um, which is life changing because I think who you are with friends and, and family and partners, like, you know, make a huge, uh, cha drastic change in your life.
And also then finally being able to go for the things that I wanted to do, which, including like leaving my job in New York and getting my license as a, as a, um, life coach. And then, you know, j joining this program, this meditation program, which again, I've talked about five years ago. I was like, oh, I shouldn't, I can't even, I'm gonna apply.
Like, I'm just, I was like, I had this story that I just wasn't good enough that I, that I couldn't even consider applying. And so, yeah, it, it, going back to this courage piece is that like you, it feels, it feels like things are possible for you and that you can move ahead. And that doesn't have to be such a [01:20:00] slog.
I mean, sometimes it's still challenging, but I know how to meet those challenges more. And I'm sure I'm forgetting a gazillion different things, but I think that gives you a pretty good idea.
Federico: And I'll say, Eva, that having worked with you, uh, for the past few months, I can attest to just how much that power and that peace and that love transpire through you, uh, and really come across. Um, and it's something that is really rare, and when you do come across it, it touches your heart and is moving deeply, deeply moving.
And that comes from, you know, skillful. And, uh, deeply loving work that, that you have done. And I bow to you, um, for that.
Eva: Okay. That's gonna make me cry, mean I am crying actually.[01:21:00]
Federico: Good. It's welcome.
Eva: um, thank you. And I'm, you know, just another real-time benefit of self-love is like being able to receive that. Like, it takes courage to receive that. I'm being like, Ooh, this feels like a lot. And like, I feel like I'm getting a little flush. Um, and then being like, okay, I'll just sit with this and like let it in, which feels nice instead of, you know, being, I. Yeah, just rejecting it or, or, you know, uh, young, like younger self, real young have been like, oh, they're just saying that to be nice. Do you know what I mean? Like, we, we have all these ways in which we can deflect. So thank you so much, Federico.
Federico: Of course. Yeah.
Eva: Um, what about you, Kylie?
Kyley: yeah. Um, Mm, I,
sorry, I'm taking a long time to answer this question because sometimes [01:22:00] I can't believe who I've let myself become through loving myself, you know? And I sometimes feel up me here, it cheers. I have these moments when I'm, where I feel so fucking proud of my, I like sobbed in people. This, a couple weeks ago that I was like, there was this, there were some really pivotal moments where I decided to do the scary thing and like keep loving myself through some things that felt dark and scary and like, I just like that me didn't know that I would get to feel like this.
Like she just had this like sense of ho like there was like that me didn't know this was possible. And yet she was relentless in pursuit of it. And I feel really humbled by my own willingness to like, keep fumbling towards love. Um, and I feel really grateful that I made all those choices when I [01:23:00] didn't.
And I think I'll sure, I'll look back at this and feel the same way, you know, but it's like, like I, I really love being with my kids and. I get to actually enjoy being with them. And I, I shared this on a recent episode, but we just went to Italy and, um, we were there for two weeks and I was so happy. And I was like, you know, we had, we all had meltdowns except for my husband.
He held it together the whole time. But like, like, you know, I was traveling with two small kids internationally. It was like upheaval. And also like, we had such an incredible time and I felt I had such access to being able to actually find the, I, I could actually like, be in the pleasure of my life. And the me in the past only knew how to seek pleasure, but she could never actually receive it or experience it.
And, uh, now I get [01:24:00] to like absorb some of it.
Eva: Um,
Kyley: I think that's probably a pretty big one.
Eva: yeah.
Federico: So wise, um, Kylie, thank you for, for sharing that and I wanna mirror something back to you that what really transpires um, when I hear you speak is, uh, just how much you inhabit your power. And I wanna. Share that just being around that energy shows the people around you that they can do it too. That they have it within them as well.
And so it is so inspiring to, to hear you share about your journey, uh, with such a sense of sovereignty and, uh, and love. So I'm delighted to be here with, uh, both of you guys. [01:25:00] Thank you.
Eva: Better Rico, you're such an open-hearted soul. Um, I am feeling called to say one more thing that Kylie, you were talking about, you know, being so happy to, just so stoked to be able to like be where you are. I think something that came in when you were talking was like, I think, um, I don't know exactly what I'm trying to say.
This idea of,
I think a lot of my childhood was about like survival. And I think that there's something about this and also the self-love piece. It's like I'm so fucking stoked that I get to be here because I feel like my survival was like, has been like my biggest fucking accomplishment of like all accomplishments in life.
And that could not have happened. And okay, now I'm gonna get emotional here. Cause it's like, [01:26:00] that could not have happened without, you know, our like yeah, just the knowing that our great suffering is a, a portal into deep, deep love.
Federico: Yeah. Thank you Eva. I, I feel you so much on, on this one, and. You know, there's that joy and that happiness that comes from being in right relationship with the suffering, right. To being in loving relationship with the suffering. And when you're able to switch to that, it's like you wake up from a dream, right?
You wake up from, from a nightmare, oh, I was caught up in this reality. And look, there's light, there's openness, there's freedom. Um, and all of that is [01:27:00] possible, you know, for anyone who's, who's hearing your story and tearing up with you because they see themselves in you, um, you know, something radically different is possible.
And that love is is the portal to it.
Eva: Yeah.
Kyley: And that like bright light freedom, exhale feeling is not because you've figured out how to make everything perfect, right? It's not because you've arrived somewhere where every, you have solved all of the problems and you are now flawless and you like, you know, like beyond reproach in your goodness.
Federico: Right?
Kyley: it's that you actually wake up and you're in the exact same place, but it looks totally different.
Eva: Yeah. Yeah. You relate to it differently. Yeah. And just what you're saying, Federico, this idea of it's Paul. Yeah. You know, that's where this passion is. It's like, it's, it's po. It's our, [01:28:00] you know, I wanna say it's our birthright. It's possible, but I also believe like that is our purpose. Like we're here to awaken.
I think to this now we can talk about our purpose as in like, what is it that you do in, in service to other people or what you create in your craft. But like, I mean, Kylie, you knows about me. Like I actually think we're here to like, enjoy. Life. Like we're here to awaken and get out, uh, free ourselves from suffering and, and liberate ourselves.
That's, to me what everyone on this planet was put on to do. Like, it's a, that's a biggest, I feel like I'm being like presumptuous, but I just think that that's true. So, um, sign up for our program.
Federico: Yes,
Eva: a good segue into signing up for loving ourselves in the power.
Kyley: yes, yes, yes. So who, tell me, okay, obviously everyone's cried along this journey, and so they've already all taken out their credit cards and signed up. But for [01:29:00] everyone, anyone else who is who, who do you invite in? Like where might someone be that this is gonna be a particularly potent walk across the bridge?
Federico: Well, You know, this is, um, a broad tent, I would say. Um, and I think both Eva and I have ideas of certain types, perhaps, um, of, of people that, uh, that might particularly benefit. And to me, one type of person that you know is really near and dear to my heart, uh, because it's close to my life story, is the person that has learned to be really nice their whole lives.
And they please everybody. And everybody likes this person. And, uh, they're always smiling and they never have any issues and they're always so emotionally stable and, and inside either their body is [01:30:00] eating itself up or their nervous system is in massive dysregulation, or they have some sort of really bad chronic health issue.
And the mismatch between what's happening inside and what's being shown on the outside is massive. And so I just want to invite this person in and let them know that that misalignment doesn't have to be, that your inside can match your outside, that you can find a way to be in relationship with the people that you love and be authentic. And the journey to get there goes through self-love, getting to know yourself, what you need, what you want, who you are, your intrinsic goodness. And once you have a pathway to these things, you can allow yourself to actually speak up and to actually create a life that doesn't cause you to get sick. So [01:31:00] that's, that's one of many types of people that I think could benefit, uh, from this.
How about you, Eva?
Eva: Oh, I feel like you knocked that out of the park, first of all. And, and second,
Kyley: a recovering people pleaser with, uh,
uh, physical discomfort for the past couple of months, I feel seen, I feel seen.
Eva: I think, um, for me, because Federica and I have talked about this, it's interesting, you know, sharing what I just shared, I think it's become even more clear to me that the person who, again, there are variations of this, but one of the pe one of like the proto, I don't know, the, the person that I might be calling in is someone who can relate to this story that I shared of just the personal suffering that we experienced when we were at war with ourselves.
Like the constant self-doubt, the overthinking, the not trusting yourself, the compare, like all, you know, you know what it is, like if [01:32:00] you, if you're listening to this, you get it cuz you feel it and it fucking sucks and you're like, oh, this is a painful way to live. Like, you are hearing this clearly and you're like, but, and so, and, and that can come from. The reason that you may have these stories and this, and this feeling of badness, you know, could come from loment things, but I will say an attitude that, I don't know, Federico, if you'd agree, I feel like this is where I'm in my, more like strong like energy. But the attitude of this program for me is that like, you're fucking ready.
Like you're stepping, you're, you're joining because you're not, there's, there's, you're not like doubting the value of this. You're like, it, there's an initiation of sorts and you are committing to an initiation when you step into this program. It's like, you're here and it's time and that's who I wanna work with.
Kyley: I also hear you saying in that like, that the people for whom this is for are like, [01:33:00] I'm, I'm done with this chapter. Right? Like, there's this way like, like, like, like, I'm ready for, I'm ready for something to change. I'm ready for a new set of experiences. Like I, I am. Whether you experience it as like anger or frustration or like being fed up or some other, it's just to, I'm
Eva: Or sad sadness.
Kyley: like just this, like this is done.
We're ready for the new, we're ready for the new way to move through things because I'm, I am choosing. That there is a new way, right? That I don't have to stay here, that I, I am not forever locked in suffering. And also you don't have to try to figure it out on your own. This shit is hard. I don't think either one of us did any of it on our own.
And probably our suffering was when we were trying so hard to figure it out on our own, you know?
Eva: Oh, thank you for saying that, Kylie. Yeah. Such, I mean, and that's why, but you, you know, you know this because this is, I feel like you probably, um, this is a value of yours in [01:34:00] your group programs as well, Kylie. But like, this work is meant to done, be done in community, and so that you can be seen, especially when unraveling shame.
Uh, you, I may have, I've probably talked about this before, but like, really you need to be witnessed when you feel like shame and badness. Because essentially what that does is it says you do this practice of like, oh, really releasing this thing that I usually like hoard and like, don't show anyone else because I'm so ashamed.
And like, I'm like, like letting it out of my body and then letting people see it and be like, oh my God, I'm still alive and my whole world didn't crumble and people can hold space for this. And it's, it's, it's scary, but also it confirms that you, I'm not a piece of shit. You know what I mean? That's, there's so much magic that happens I think when we do this work, uh, with other people who had experienced sort of the same things.
And then yeah, just being seen and heard, I think is what most people want at the [01:35:00] end of the day. I need.
Federico: Yeah. And, and what they didn't get often as, as children, right? Which is the reason why you don't know who you are because nobody mirrored it back to you. And so how powerful it is to receive that from like-hearted, like-minded people. Um, And, you know, work through your stuff, uh, in that way. So a hundred percent.
Eva: Yeah.
Kyley: And all, and I, I couldn't think of two people that I would trust more with this journey. So, um,
Eva: Thanks
Kyley: we speak logistics for a second? Like, where do people go to sign up? When does it start? Like when do they gotta make a decision by
Eva: Thanks for asking. All the good que Yeah. Thanks for asking all the good questions, Kylie. Um, Federico, do you wanna share that?
Federico: Yeah. So I guess on both of our websites, um, so, uh, eva.com, uh, and fico pet.com, I know hard to spell, but the link will be in the [01:36:00] description somewhere, uh, where this is posted and, um, slash loving ourselves for both, um, websites. And we have early bird pricing until June 7th. Um, and you'll see all the details about the dates and times and, and so on, um, on our websites.
Kyley: Get on in there. You're ready. You're ready for a change. And you could not step into more capable, compassionate, wise hands. So
Eva: thanks friend. You the best.
Federico: Yeah, you are.
Eva: Um, I think it's time for joy.
Kyley: should we do joy? Yeah.
Eva: All right.
Kyley: Beco. That's bringing you joy.
Federico: You guys are bringing me joy. Um, delicious fruit, um, is bringing me joy that's coming into season. Um, the sunshine is bringing me joy. Living my purpose is bringing me joy. [01:37:00] Um, seeing people transform is bringing me joy.
Kyley: mm
Eva: love that. Um, do you want me to go connect Kylie? I, I mean, I have my answer locked and loaded. I feel like I'm beating a, beating a dead horse, but truly, I mean, it's, it is because it's so alive for me right now. It is. Like, I actually think what's bringing me joy is the under, like the experience and understanding of how much better it is to work in partnership with somebody. So that's very relevant because I work in partnership with both of you guys. And Kylie, you've been, you know, you know this, and you've been talking about this, but like, I actually had someone ask me about business, just like business stuff recently.
And I was like, you know what, like if you can find someone who you can partner with, and, uh, like there's, it's a different ballgame, right? It's like, There's, you just don't have to figure it all out on your own. You have feedback. There's accountability. You know, when you get in your head, you can get out of [01:38:00] your head.
There's just all these things. And I will say, like, when I first started my business, I had just come out of this like office job and like, there was just a lot of like meetings and collaborations, and I think I was really, really enjoying just working by myself for a while. Um, and so understandably, and then, but I think cut myself off from having collaborations until I met you, Kylie, of course, and then h Hello Universe would not exist for almost what, wait, we're in our fourth season or third?
Fourth. Third
Kyley: We're, we're wrapping up our
Eva: third
right. And then we're starting our fourth. Like, that would not happen on my own. Do you know what I mean? So,
Kyley: Yeah.
Eva: but the advice that I gave, the person who was asking me about business, I was like, you know, don't just like partner up with anybody. It's like you, I feel so lucky when you, when you find someone who you really just flow with, that's a gift and that will come, you know, like if you just put it out there and say like, Hey, I'm looking for a collaborator.
I really trust that. Like, if you're in your power, you don't have to force it. You know, you can like [01:39:00] call it in. Um, so yeah, I think it's, it's a humbling experience and that's what's bringing me joy.
Kyley: that was one of my bonus questions that we didn't get to actually was about the interplay between self-love and partnership. Because, you know, I also, between you and, and Liz, like, yeah, I love, I love our working partnership so much and also like, you have to be willing, as you were saying in the, in the beginning, Federico, like, you have to be willing to show up authentically in that partnership, right?
In your collaboration you have to show up as you really are, which means you have to say what you need and you have to listen. Like you have to be willing to like own where you, um, you know, need support or have deficits or have insecurities or triggers coming up. Like you have to like you and you have to also drop the ego to [01:40:00] hear the other person's shit about that, right?
Like, um, I think it is so much richer. And also it, it feels like a really sacred thing to be in a, kind of, in this kind of a partnership.
Eva: Yeah. Yeah. And I mean, I just, I mean, I know this is like a public podcast, but I wouldn't have like ugly, ugly cla cried on this show if it would. I didn't feel so safe with the both of you. Do you know what I mean? And that's, ugh, just that safety of being like, I can just, yeah, that, that I can feel comfortable doing.
That just speaks to the deliciousness of partnerships, like safe partnerships. Yeah.
Okay. And you, Kylie, what's bringing you joy?
Kyley: speaking of wonderful partnerships, my joy is the world's best gift basket that I got in the mail this morning.
Eva: shit.
Kyley: So I actually am saving, I didn't send Eva a like, thank you Telegram message yet because I was naming it for my joy tonight.
Eva: Oh my God, you're [01:41:00] so surprising me. You're surprising. That's so sweet.
Kyley: Eva sent me a, a little box of incredible goodies for my birthday,
Eva: two, three weeks, three weeks late, but
Kyley: which is even better, right? Like you think the world has forgotten you and is back to regular routine and then you get more birthday stuff and uh, there are these like earrings that look like the star, like look like a star in the best possible way.
There's braiding Sweetgrass, a book I have meant to read for ages, and then Eva bookmarked a chapter that she was like, you'll really like this one. So I spent my morning crying reading that one.
Eva: oh my
Kyley: Um, and um, and like face lotion that I love, an incense that I love, I did just like, the whole thing was just like the most beautiful.
And then Eva wrote me a list, my kind of girl. She wrote it on computer printer paper. I was like, this is why we're friends. like
Eva: What other paper would I use?
Kyley: like the backstory to each item and why [01:42:00] that was included, it just is like, ugh, I felt so loved. I feel so absurdly lucky. And I will also share in the theme of self-love.
I feel grateful that I can receive it because in the past, birthdays are usually, I like just, I tend, I really want them. And then people tell me that they love me and I hide and I feel shame. So like the fact that I could receive your gift and then just feel like really loved and happy about feeling loved was its own kind of victory dance.
So, um, yeah. Thanks
Eva: Yay. You're so welcome. So glad you got it. Yeah. Um, yeah, you're, you're, you're blind. Just surprising me. I didn't expect you to get there that early, but, um, I'm happy you brought you joy. Yay.
Kyley: Lots of it.
Federico: Eva, my birthday is March 27th, please, and Thank you.
Eva: Noted. Moed. Oh wait, so are you a, are you Pisces?
Federico: No, I'm Aries actually, but the Jewish sign is Pisces because it works on a different calendar, so, um, [01:43:00] yeah,
Eva: Okay. I'm literally making a note. March 27th.
Federico: no, I'm, I'm joking. Don't,
Eva: No,
Federico: you don't have to.
Eva: no, but it's important that I know your birthday, so then I can also know your astrology. Do you know your human design by any chance? Okay. We'll have to do that after the show.
Federico: Okay. And Jean keys, I've, I've just discovered the jean keys. If you guys haven't a whole universe to. Delve into Super helpful. Yeah,
Kyley: My former client is that, that's her whole thing is Jeany, which she discovered after we were like, I was, but, and so she gave me a reading once and it blew my mind. It's so much fun. Yes, yes. Um, also just a quick bonus joy since we're talking about, since Pisces came up. So my son's a Pisces moon and my daughter's a Pisces son.
So we have a lot of that emotions in our house. And today Bernie was watching a TV show with her brother and we walked into the room and she was, she was [01:44:00] crying and she told us that she was happy crying because she liked the show so much. So whatever was happening on like creature, critter, adventure, she literally, her eyes were like full of, she had like tear stains down her face and she said that she was happy crying.
Federico: I love that.
Kyley: I know. Isn't that so sweet? And we were. She was. And she was. She was like beaming. She was so happy. I just love my little four year old happy crying
Federico: That's
Eva: yeah. Happy crying, but just like that level of intune with like her emotions. Oh, it's so beautiful.
Kyley: it's cause their mom happy cries all the
Eva: Yeah.
Kyley: they used to be really alarmed until I had to explain that it was a good kind of crying. So.
Federico: Great modeling there,
Eva: Yeah. Great
Federico: love it. Yeah.
Eva: Um, Fred Rico, is there anything else that you wanna share with our listeners before, um, we head out? Any other, any other ways that people can work with you?
Federico: Mm. You know, I work on [01:45:00] a broad kind of style of healing. So if you feel that something is off with your body, with your mind, and you're looking for something that is holistic and looks at everything together, if you want to clean out your body, if you want to, um, find that flow of energy, um, both as we were saying in the body and in the psyche, uh, check out federica pat.com.
Um, and if you happen to be suffering from dystonia, dysphonia, um, nervous system disorders, check out hope for dystonia.com and we can do wonderful work together.