In this episode, we sit down with Susan V, Eva's dear friend and facilitator of The Work of Byron Katie, to discuss how to stay connected to yourself — in conflict, in love, and when you’re single.
In this episode, we sit down with Susan V, Eva's dear friend and facilitator of The Work of Byron Katie, to discuss how to stay connected to yourself — in conflict, in love, and when you’re single.
They unpack how shame turns into perfectionism, how to take responsibility without collapsing into guilt, and making peace with being single. Susan shares how she released the idea that love would “save” her, and how that shift made space for her to stay connected to herself when she found herself in a loving relationship.
This episode is for anyone who’s ever over-apologized, abandoned themselves for love, or struggled to stay true to themselves when things get messy.
We discuss:
Being whole in relationship — How to be yourself while staying connected to others.
Accountability vs. shame — Taking responsibility for your impact without turning it into self-blame.
Perfectionism trap — How trying to “get it right” keeps you from experiencing fulfillment and safety
Singlehood & self-worth — Letting go of the idea that being single means you're unlovable
Real love — Why healthy relationships come from wholeness, not from finally being “healed enough.”
About Susan:
Susan Vielguth is a Facilitator of The Work of Byron Katie, whose work is rooted in the liberation that comes from questioning our painful beliefs. You can learn more about Susan at theworkwithsusan.com.
Susan
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www.instagram.com/reclaimyourlight/
Eva
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Kyley
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Eva: [00:00:00] Hi, Susan. Welcome to Hell Universe. I am so, so, so, so, so excited to have you here.
Susan: Thank you. So happy to be here.
Eva: Okay. So as you know, we like to start off this episode asking what's life teaching you at the moment?
Susan: Life at the moment is teaching me to be in the gray area around conflict. Um, I have a tendency to go black or white. You know, if I'm hurt, it's either all my fault that I'm hurt or it's all your fault that I'm hurt. [00:01:00] And what this can look like is, you know, with the initial hurt, it's definitely all your fault. and then when I begin to have the conversation and I, I hear the context and I, you know, if I am to hear what was running inside the other. Oftentimes I can find where it was completely understandable that they ended up behaving that way. I see their innocence and, um, and in that there's so much relief. And so then often, um, in that state, I will just excuse the behavior since it didn't mean what I thought it did. And then it's all my fault for taking it personally.
Kyley: Mm.
Susan: And then I become this, this project in that particular way. And this came up recently with a friend where, um, she was sharing an insight, a realization with me, and I didn't quite understand what she was saying.
And so I, I was like, oh, is this what you mean? No, it's not what I mean, is this what you mean? And then at [00:02:00] some point she was just like, no, that's not it. And she turned away from me. And wasn't available anymore to have a conversation about it with me. And it was so painful for me. I was so hurt. And, um, when we talked about it later, what I heard was that in her experience, the more she was talking about it, the less access she was having to the insight and that, um, she was beginning to attack herself.
Like, why am I so quick to share these realizations I have when they're so fresh in me? Like, why don't I just protect them a little bit while they're, you know, nourish them while they're living in me. So as I'm hearing this, I'm realizing like, she didn't come from judgment. It didn't come from condemnation of me.
It was really about protecting what was precious to her. And, and again, like historically, I would just, I would just be like, oh good, okay, we're good. And this time it was like coming into a bit more balance where I could completely see where she was coming from. And I said, and do you [00:03:00] see how you did turn away from me?
It took so much courage for me to say that because I can see how when I make it all my fault, then I can keep the connection. And here it's like, I see your innocence. And when you turned away and when you were no longer available to me, that was really painful for me and scary for me. And when she saw that and she apologized, like it was so healing for me, and I realized that I, I don't often give that to myself.
Kyley: Hmm.
Susan: quick to just turn it on me. Um, so that feels like, that feels definitely like something that I'm, I'm growing into more consciously. Mm-hmm.
Eva: Mm-hmm. I think you described that dynamic so well and I felt actually a little bit emotional as you were speaking to it for a couple of reasons. Yeah. I think it's because I could see how I do that in myself. I, I've actually, you know, knowing you so well, Susan, I think I've [00:04:00] seen how you do that. You know, like how sometimes it's just easier to stay in love with that or what we think is love and so they're like, oh yeah, yeah, it's good.
Then I don't have to bring up anything that I felt like was uncomfortable for me,
Susan: Mm-hmm.
Eva: and I think. have talked a lot often about how actually, and our journeys or my, and what I can relate to is like, my journey is like no, but the second half of also kinda standing up for myself and speaking what I feel is totally true.
And I think the emotional part was seeing how, like when I don't, seeing that, I don't do that often and it feels like a, a betrayal of myself and that that's painful, but also feels so much easier sometimes,
Susan: Totally.
Eva: so much easier. And I think maybe the question is like, for those of us who feel like you'd just be easier to stay in the, in the love part of like, oh, it's okay, like, I totally understand.
And [00:05:00] being so, um, compassionate, what for you, do you think is the benefit of bringing in, you know, the part where
Kyley: So, yeah, what do we get out? Why is the risk worth it?
Susan: That's nice. That's a cool way to look at it. Well, Kay, I wanna say two things. I wanna answer that question, but the first thing I wanna say is I think what I've come to see, or one aspect that I've come to see, is that the reason why I don't do it, so this is like the, the answer to the opposite of your question is that I get to be completely in control.
You know, like if it's all on me, it gives me this idea of like, I'm in control. I'll just fix myself, then I can prevent this from happening again. And it's like that illusion of safety. Um, but that in that, it also shows me it costs me, which is that, um, now it's all on me. So now it's like there is a separation in that.
[00:06:00] And, and also it was really powerful when I, like, when I went to my friend and I acknowledged that I can see my part. I mean, I definitely have a part that, and it's bigger than hers, I would say in that situation. Like the conclusions I came to were the majority of my pain in that moment. Um, but acknowledging that her behavior was also painful when she saw that, that felt so connecting and it felt like trust was built in that moment. She understood why that was hard for me, and, and so it, it allowed a shared language. In that also, it dispelled a lot of my own shame around taking it personally. It was like not only is it understandable that she turned away, but it's also understandable why I took it personally. [00:07:00] Both became included in it.
Eva: Mm-hmm.
Susan: Yeah.
Eva: Which I see as like an opportunity of a deepening of a relationship. You know, like there's, there's intimacy and like you said, there's trust being built there, which ultimately I think for, if we want like relationships to have longevity that's needed.
Susan: Mm-hmm.
Kyley: I think it, I think another piece of this that's interesting is that like your story is really beautiful of like when you say the thing of then you. You open yourself up to receiving what you really need. There's deeper connection. Like the relationship is even more solid than before. But I'm thinking of this question of like, what's like, why is the risk worth it?
Because, or or like what do you get out of it? Or what's the benefit per Eva's question knowing that sometimes you, the opposite happens, right? Sometimes you do the thing and you say, can't you see that I have been hurt here [00:08:00] and the other person can't? Right. And I have had a couple of those experiences, um, in recent memory, like in pretty big painful ways where I have been like, I'm, I'm hurt too.
And the other person just like, cannot let that be part of their truth. And so that's kind almost, that's kind of, and like relationships have ended over this for
Susan: Yeah.
Kyley: and, uh, in the somewhat recent past. Um, and I think I share that specifically because even though that's a worst case scenario. God, I'm glad I'm not in relationship with someone who couldn't have, couldn't hold my, couldn't hold the truth of you, hurt me too, right?
Like even in the worst case scenario, it's actually still connection in the sense that it's a deeper connection to yourself. The cost of love isn't self abandonment. Like you're, um, removed from a relationship that maybe had some false right in this, [00:09:00] these instances where the relationship ended like, or that had some like false, uh, or like unsustainable cracks in the foundation or whatever.
Um, and then there's, that's a spectrum here, right? Like I'm talking about examples where relationships ended and you're speaking to this really beautiful resolution, but there's also all sorts of moments in the in-between. But I just, just wanna speak to like, even when it sucks, even when it doesn't go the way that you want it to, like it's still worth it to not betray yourself.
Eva: Mm-hmm.
Susan: happy you said that. That really resonates and, and how can we know that we are aligned unless we take these risks?
Kyley: Yeah. Yeah.
Eva: Yeah. Yeah. 'cause honestly, it is kind of like our worst fear, right? It's some version of being cast out of love or having love end, but that's like really good information to have.
Susan: Mm-hmm.
Eva: It's good information to have. And I think there [00:10:00] is a com, there's a part of us that like, wants to be comfortable in the, like, I just don't, there's some comfort in not knowing, in like the ignorance of not knowing, you know?
It's like, uh, of not needing to find out if this person's gonna hold me or not. I, I, some of it's like, it's just like, and it's scary. It's scary, but also. That's information you wanna have that if you basically approach someone and say, I'm also hurt. And they're like, well, sorry. Like that's your problem.
That's not a relationship that we wanna be in. And it's painful, but it's good information to have.
Susan: I was also seeing, when you were talking Kylie, I was thinking about how, you know, sometimes I've been on the other side of it where someone's sharing a hurt with me, and I'm so busy defending why I didn't mean to do that, that I'm not able to hear the effect that my behavior had on them. And so it's, it feels like a.
A twofer for me, it's almost like I'm learning how to see that someone else [00:11:00] can be innocent and accountable. And then when you were saying that too, I was realizing like I'm also learning how to hold myself as good. Like I did not mean to hurt them. And I did do that action and it did have that impact on them.
And how when I'm so busy defending myself, there's no room for their hurt and I'm basically invalidating them feeling the way that they're feeling. Um,
Kyley: yeah. Like when you're, when someone that you love. You know, when you're hurt by someone that you love and they go quick to say, I didn't mean it that way, or I didn't mean that, or, I would never mean to hurt you. I'm always so fucking pissed in those moments. Not because the person's being disingenuous, like the people I'm thinking of, like they're not being disingenuous.
But because like, I don't give, I know you didn't mean to, like, I know you well enough and I like that. I know you didn't mean to, but that doesn't change the fact that I just got [00:12:00] hurt. Right? Like intention, intent and impact are not the same thing. And in that moment I'm like, I don't actually give a shit that you didn't mean to
Susan: Yeah.
Kyley: I need you to see that you, I, I need you to see that I'm hurt and then you can tell me that you didn't mean to, but I already knew that part.
Right? I think what you're speaking to is like just how much we long to be witnessed, you know, and how much some of our conflict is like, I don't know, like this, like primal screaming out. Like, don't you see me? Don't you
Susan: Mm-hmm.
Eva: Mm-hmm.
Susan: Totally. A good friend of mine and mentor Roxanne Burrows, who I think you know, Eva, um, she talks about it in the form of like a pie chart. And so I'll put it in my own words. I hope I'm doing her justice. But it's almost like every conflict is, is its own pie chart where I have my part and you have your part.
And you know, sometimes the intention is like, there's like no ill intent whatsoever, you know, but they, they took it a certain way, but I still [00:13:00] have my part in whatever the action was. And I think sometimes for me, what gets in the way of me just saying like, I see you, I hear you and I'm sorry, is when I imagine that they're putting it all on me. And sometimes I have the fear, and I've talked about this with my boyfriend. Like, I'm afraid that if you, if you heard something I said or you imagined that something I did meant X, Y, z, if I say I'm sorry that there's such a fear that I'm validating his story, his painful story,
Eva: Mm.
Susan: um, but I'm also just like, really. about that, because I think too, um, and, we'll, I'm sure we'll get into this at some point in this conversation today, but, um, I really grew up, like, I would say the, the emotion that I struggled with most as a child was shame from about like seven to 16 years old. And then, um, like most people who experience shame, which we all do at [00:14:00] some point, but like a pretty common shift from shame is to go into this perfectionism cycle where now I'll compensate for being bad by being perfect.
And, um, and so it's such a threat. Anytime, anytime I'm seen as hurting someone, it's like, oh my God. It's like my whole, my whole fear that I'm bad is being exposed. And, um, and so coming back into seeing the innocence of it all, it's. It's, it's messy, you know, like learn. I'm really, I feel like I'm really learning how to get more and more comfortable with the mess.
I mean, I think that's my learning in life, but definitely as of late as well. Yeah.
Kyley: I just almost start to cry.
Susan: Oh,
Eva: I think it's gonna be one of those episodes.
Kyley: cry.
Eva: Yeah. [00:15:00] Hmm.
Kyley: You know, people are transmissions, right? Like we are our medicine. And so I think I'm like, literally just like, like those words you just said about shame and perfection. Like, you know, that's the shit I teach. I teach it 'cause it's like born out of my, you know, bloody heart. But like meaning, like, I've thought many of these things myself, but somehow you, you saying them.
Yeah, made me cry. So thank you for, uh, we don't have to put this part in the podcast. This might be, oh.
Eva: Well, I think it's probably touching on some things that are personally alive for you right now, Kylie. I think there's like a couple things going on and also Kylie, you are just like a very sensitive person who picks up a lot of things. And I think Susan, you were like very embodied in this work and I think Kylie's just, and I think that can be [00:16:00] felt and can be sensed and even, even as like, you know, we're friends and I've heard you speak on these things just in your personal life, but hearing you now, I'm like, this shit is like well explored territory for you.
Like you, you really, this does feels like your flavor of medicine. It's the relationships stuff like, but how who we are and, and how we show up in relationship feels like, oh, you are like actively living and exploring this. So in your every day
Kyley: Yeah.
Eva: who you are. It's.
Susan: Yeah.
Kyley: Yeah. There is something, there's something about the way you just said, like, of course perfectionism is like, it's like, like the straight shot from shame to perfectionism Again, it's like. I know that, but some things somehow, the way you said that, like I just, oh, I could cry again. Like there's so much compassion for this little girl.[00:17:00]
Susan: Yeah,
Kyley: Oh my gosh.
Eva: Yeah, you should let that in.
Kyley: Oh.
Susan: it's so easy to be hard on ourselves. Like I know for me, it's so easy to go to a place of, um, judging myself when I catch that perfectionism running in me. Um. To be so impatient with it. what I'm really feeling as I'm witnessing you, Kylie, is like, you know, to see where it comes from, it's like, whew.
Kyley: I'm like overwhelmed with compassion for like, you just didn't have that many tools.
Susan: yeah.
Kyley: Like, oh.
Susan: And of course, like if I think I'm bad, you know, if I'm really believing that, of course I'm the best shot I have at Connection, love, belonging is [00:18:00] to mimic being good. And of course good to the one who's bad is perfect. You know, it's not like imperfectly. It's not like humanly good,
Kyley: Right, right, right. Oh
Susan: It's like no one, everyone has to like me. No one can reject me. You know? I have to be completely. An outta 10 in everything.
Kyley: Oh
Eva: Yeah, it's, I mean, as you speak to that, I can, I, I, I know where that is alive in me. It's like, it's such a harsh way to live and it's, it shows up in me as like incredibly hypervigilant
Susan: Mm-hmm.
Eva: and, and clenched. It's like there, it's like I can't relax. I'm constantly on guard. And I've seen more and more actually through the work and spiritual practices of like, it's actually interesting.
I actually feel like the more, the more free I become. [00:19:00] The more, um, the subtle gets loud because like I, I noticed these patterns in me and they used to just be loud and then I would go to like a su more subtle layer and seeing like, wow, that's still existing in me. And I'm calling it subtle, but as my, I think sensory, it's like I've become more, my senses are more refined.
I can like,
Kyley: Yeah.
Eva: catch it more. And so it actually, the subtle is no, it comes up to the la the surface and it's no longer subtle. It's still, it's just as big. So it's really interesting. And I see I keep going down in layers and layers and layers and I think I've released something and I probably have, then I go back down like, wait, but that flavor is still there.
And I go down layer, well, it's still there and I keep going down what's, ah, it's still there.
Kyley: And, and I think this is part of why I just cried so much too, is like, it's not actually subtle, right? Like we are, you, we, we think perhaps we think it's subtle because it used to be really loud, but like, like [00:20:00] there's for, so for part of the aliveness, for of this particular thing that you're talking about in this moment is, um, some relational stuff.
Um, and also, I mean, last night I was just been trying, I was trying to write a sales page for something and I love to write. And I like that is like the, such a huge place where my perfectionism comes out. And so it's just like Gru particularly just like. It's just like the, it's a whole fucking process, right?
It's like all these theatrics because it, like, the perfection is just like, has like a firm grip on the steering wheel.
Eva: Which is why writing a book for you is just gonna be huge medicine. Kylie
Kyley: gonna, it's a very,
Eva: and in my mind I'm like, that sounds like fucking hell. I don't know why anyone would ever wanna do that. But also for you, Kylie, I think you'll actually be able to move through that. You know, like
Kyley: Like it's gotta, it's gotta, I did this, I did last night. Think like I, I'm, I'm drowning in this like, not actually important sales page. Uh, so the, a book is an interesting challenge, but, [00:21:00] but I think the point that I wanna make is like, it's not actually subtle. Like, it's not subtle how much this like, shame, perfectionism, super highway is just like zooming along.
Um, it's just that maybe it used to be worse, but like,
Susan: Mm-hmm.
Kyley: you know.
Eva: Well, actually, so I'm, so I'm curious, Susan, how you experience it, because yeah, I'm curious how you experience your relationship with this perfectionism. The shame be as someone who I think I perceive to, you know, have it be a really big part of your experience and then also have it whittle down over the years.
So I'm curious, how does it show up for you?
Susan: [00:22:00] Yeah, it's a good question. I mean, the first thing that comes to mind is, um, I can still relate to what you were saying, Eva, of like how it is getting better, but it can still feel really big. And it's not until I remember and I consciously think about what it used to be like that that's when I really realized how far I've come.
Kyley: Hmm.
Susan: Um, 'cause something that I've noticed is it's like, you know, maybe I used to believe I'm bad 50 times a [00:23:00] day. You know, let's just say, and now it comes up five times a day, right? We'll just say that. Um, it's like 10, but no, but uh, but when I'm in the belief of I'm bad, I'm back in it.
Kyley: Yeah.
Susan: I'm not like 10%, like when I'm in that belief and it doesn't last as long and I don't hang out there as often.
And of course circumstances can shift that. I mean, I made a lot of progress. And then a couple years ago I went through a breakup that rocked me and I got to touch, like, it felt like I touched the bottom of shame again, and I got to see what's left. And it was very humbling. Um, but that's something that I really notice is like anytime I, I enter into that, into that space, like anytime I go under that spell where I'm like back in the world of I'm bad, it feels just like it felt back [00:24:00] then. And, um, I think the, the biggest shift that I've noticed over time is that because I've spent so much time getting to know this part of me and the way that it operates and the mechanism inside of me. Now when it comes over me, I can't deny that. I know it will pass. And always the flavor of suffering. I mean, I think that's how I relate to the idea of hell.
Like suffering always feels eternal when I'm in the middle of it. That's just how it feels. I'm fucked. I've always been fucked. I'll always be fucked. You know? It's like any goodness I ever felt, any like confidence, any, you know, that was all. I was just fool myself. I was completely delusional. This is real.
This
Kyley: I literally had to pep talk myself through that. The other day I was feeling some misery and I was just like, this is, this is forever. And I had to be like, this is always how it feels.
Susan: Yes,
Kyley: gonna, it's the, the cloud is temporarily over the sun [00:25:00] and it's a windy day. Like, have a snack and wait 20 minutes.
But,
Susan: totally.
Kyley: it did not, yeah.
Susan: And so now like. 'cause I tried the thing, you know, where you have like an insight and then you're back in the same place. And then, you know, I've tried the thing where I like tell myself, you know, this isn't gonna last forever. You know, it's like another condemning voice coming and doesn't help.
So now something that really supports me is like, you know, could it be, could it be that this isn't gonna last forever? You know, just as like a slight opening. And then oftentimes for me, like I'll just say to myself, it could be that it's safe to feel this, it could be that it's safe to feel this shame right now if it's shame coming up or whatever it is. Um, but more and more what I've noticed is that my curiosity is growing around it. So rather than being completely dictated by it, there's like a curiosity. So one [00:26:00] of like, my main shames I would say that I've worked through and worked through in my life is this identity of I'm unlovable. That was really what I had made, what happened to me as a child mean about me.
That was like one of the main ones. And, um, I'm still fully capable of going into that identity at times. You know, different things trigger it. And um, and what I've noticed is that there's more and more, like when I'm in it, I'm like, oh, here's that familiar friend, you know, it's like, oh, I know this one. more and more the curiosity. So it's like a different flavor than fixing, it's a different flavor than like asking questions to get rid of it, but like genuinely like, okay, you know, the last time it really came over me or the last time I can remember, I remember thinking to myself like, okay, well what is lovable?
What does that even mean? What is lovable? And I was seeing images of people in my life and I started to notice the [00:27:00] qualities and, and then it was undeniable that I have those qualities in me. Like I couldn't. I couldn't not see those qualities in me, but it still felt true. And so then that was such an indicator for me, like, oh, this is, you know, like so many people talk about it as a habit, you know, I'm in that like habituated familiar place.
And then for me, it's not like all the alarm bells are going off that I need to fix it. It's more like, you know, Byron Katie sometimes describes it as like a seizure, you know, just like time it, it, it, you know, eventually it does move through and it's just like, whoa, man, that felt so real. then, and then for me, my work is to, and like my interest is to just see what was I believing that led it to feel so real.
Kyley: Um.
Susan: Um, but more and more I would say the, the biggest thing is more and more I'm not afraid of it, and there's a freedom to feel it, [00:28:00] you know, like before when it would come up, it was like more evidence that I'm bad. Whereas now it's, it's like more to understand, more to explore. And sometimes, like the way that you were talking, Eva, that, you know, I often think of the analogy of, um, when people are testing for what foods they're allergic to, and then you take out all these foods in your diet for whatever, three, six weeks, and then you slowly reintroduce them.
I had a friend who took eggs out of her diet at some point, and, you know, she had like, she fatigue, you know, kind of like the, the typical signs. But when she reintroduced it, she got so sick, just a little bit of egg made her so sick because all the numbness was gone to it. And I often think about that with this.
It's almost like the healthier we get, the greater we can feel when something is so painful. And so in a weird way, sometimes you are moving forward even when you feel like you're moving [00:29:00] backward.
Kyley: Um.
Eva: Oh, I love that analogy. Yes, that's exactly what I was trying to say. It's like the egg analogy of like she was actually just more sensitive to something that was harmful for her. And I think I could take that and mean, yeah, this is actually really helpful for me because I can see how my critical mind will take that and say, well, oh no, it just, that sensitivity means that I am, haven't improved at all, that I'm right back where I started.
That, you know, nothing's changed when in fact it could be the opposite. It's that like. Yeah, it's the opposite. My, my sense, my like senses has just become more refined and I can see when something is not in alignment or just feels off and it and it gets louder.
Susan: Mm-hmm.
Eva: Yeah. And I also love that both of you are, we're just speaking to like the humanness of like, when you're in it, you're in it 100%.
So it doesn't matter if you're feeling it, you know, 10 [00:30:00] times or five times or one time a day. That's actually a really helpful explanation. 'cause I think I get really down on myself for being so in it. I'll come out and I'll be like, how was I like so in it? Shouldn't, I like know better by now? Or whatever.
And I'm like, oh, actually no, when you're, it doesn't matter. When you're in it, you're in it. And
Susan: Yeah.
Kyley: Yeah.
Eva: you're 100% in it.
Kyley: Um, and I feel like the best we can do, or a generous thing we can do is like be the watcher of ourselves in it. You know, like to let ourselves really be in it. Like this morning I like did like, I dunno, like two minutes of just like sobbing and then I was like totally different, right? Like this huge energy fell off in that, like weight fell off in that moment.
Um. Uh, but even as I was crying, it's like, what's the, this is it, what's the meaning we're making about being in it? Right? Because I think that's what you're speaking to, Eva is like when the meaning we're making is I'm in it and it's more evidence that [00:31:00] I'm bad and it's more blah, blah, blah. Then there's like all this suffering.
But if we're like, if, if our story is like whatever other gener more generous story we're having and we're in it, then it just can has, I think I experienced that it passes faster, which I do appreciate, but also like it's just less painful
Eva: Yeah.
Kyley: I had this really interesting, I'm just so, I'm so touched by the magic of the universe because I woke up this morning just like in it, I, this morning I woke up and I was in it and I was kind of judging the in it.
'cause I was like, didn't you deal with this like four days ago? What the fuck? So that was interesting that we're having this conversation and then like, every single thing this day has been like such beautiful care. Almost like I had a, I'm taking a group program that was all about this topic of like, what are the stories that we're attached to in a particular, particular way.
I had a healing session in which the thing that we touched into was, um, my attachment to the [00:32:00] story of I'm unlovable. And then here you're on the podcast and you're like talking about the attachment to the story of I'm unlovable and I'm just like cracking up. Like, how could we believe that we're unlovable and unloved when the universe is like perfectly casting the spell and the movie scenes of our life?
Like, you can't make this shit up, you know?
Eva: Yes.
Kyley: Um.
Eva: yeah, well, I think what you're speaking to is like, uh, the. Um, I mean the beauty of the opening, 'cause I of like, so then, because then we see it, but oftentimes when we're in it, we completely miss it. Like, life is completely supporting us in every way. Right. And it's like so bountiful and we're in the dark, like we completely miss it.
And that's why, to go back to what you're saying, Susan is like, I love your analogy of like, what, when you were talking about being curious, you know, now you can be curious. What I felt was at first was like when I'm really in my story, whatever your story is, like you have, everyone's got some stories. Top, top favorite tunes.
It's like, it felt like a fucking brick, you know? It's just like [00:33:00] solid. It's here and it's heavy. But then what I saw you do is like, with your curiosity of like asking these questions of like, you were dialoguing with it. I, I saw it like, like go into putty and it's like you could like play with it and mold it a little bit where it wasn't this like just immovable thing.
And so I also love the idea of just like. Yeah, it's like if I can remember anyway. 'cause again, sometimes when I'm in it, I don't remember shit. I'm one in it 100%. But there is grace sometimes that comes in where it's like, wait, can I be curious about this? And really dialogue with it rather than just believing it completely.
Kyley: is coming into my mind right now is, um, like if you, if you are having like a big feast, you wanna go hungry, like it's a bummer if you show truth to feast and you're like,
Susan: Totally.
Kyley: like all, all you have capacity for is to snack. And there's this way that like, we experience being in it as this like terrible, painful thing, right?
But in this moment I'm also seeing the, the reverse, which is [00:34:00] okay, I have like the, what is my, like greatest desire in life, but to experience and like experience that I'm loved. And then look at how this day has like been this like one after the other opportunity of, of getting to experience that I am loved and I got to show up to the feast hungry. so the being
Susan: Oh.
Kyley: like facilitated a kind of space to receive love, that would've been a different experience if I didn't wake up in it. And
Susan: Mm-hmm.
Kyley: that feels like very, I don't know. I, I had never thought of it in that particular way before, but I
Susan: That is so beautiful.
Eva: Mm-hmm. Yeah.
Susan: I also really appreciated what you said about being a witness to it and also just letting yourself cry. 'cause like you were saying, Eva, I think that there is a spectrum of like being in it. You know, like when I'm in it all the way, like there's no coming back from it, right?
That's like, that's how I know I'm in it all the way. I'm [00:35:00] never coming back from this, you know? But then there's like, there's like the midway point where I'm in it, but there's an awareness that I'm in it and it's like, how can I, how can I safely express and let this live? You know? Like that last weekend, I was just screaming into a pillow, like I have not screamed that loud into a pillow for a long time it was great.
People used to drive
Eva: Dude, I was screaming into a pillow. Was that also last, I wonder if you were screaming into pillows at the same time? I think
Kyley: I really love that.
Susan: PM
Eva: Wait, hold on. Yeah, it was Saturday for me too. Wow. That's so.
Susan: it. We'll look at our calendars later. The time difference.
Kyley: Oh, that's amazing. Forget sinking cycles. Sink your pillow screams.
Susan: All right ladies, it's pillow
Eva: Yes. Honestly, I also, I think it's much needed by women people, but
Kyley: This is the divine feminine rage. I'm here for
Susan: Yes. [00:36:00] Because when I'm in it, I don't always have access to the curiosity. You know, I think the curiosity is like when I'm a little bit higher on the spectrum, um, sometimes it takes time. That takes time to kind of feel my way through before I'm even available for that. 'cause you know, it's kind of like, you know, the question can come in that sounds curious, but it is not curious.
Like why can sound like, oh, why, what's going on? Or it can be like, why? Why, what's going on? You know? And so the, it can come in and it can appear innocuous, but it's really just another shame with a different mask coming in. And that's typically like when I'm really in it. Um, even the approach that I use, which is the work of Byron Katie, you know, is it true?
Is like so fucking cynical,
Kyley: Mm.
Susan: know? And so then for me it really is. It's like, okay, I'm in it. And then like you said, Kylie, you know, just to witness it. [00:37:00] Yeah. Get a snack.
Kyley: it's on my mind. Especially because last night my kids, my, my kids were, my daughter in particular was like so hangry. She, like, we went to this after school end of year party, and like all her friends were there and she had ice cream and hadn't eaten since, like lunchtime, whatever. It was just like a conference of things and she was just like, like meltdown city.
And, but she kept going, I'm not hungry
Eva: Yep.
Kyley: because like, I, God bless her. I really love this kid. 'cause she was just like, you will not invalidate my emotions. And I was just like, yes baby girl, but can you eat this peanut butter cracker and also cry into it? Like, yes. And
Eva: Oh my goodness. Yeah,
Susan: good.
Kyley: yeah.
Eva: I think, okay. I wanna move into talking about, Hmm. I think Susan, your [00:38:00] experience of, um. Actually, I just wanna say a plug really quick for both of you women. What I was clocking and tracking as you were both speaking is that like your two women who are so important to me in my life, and you have different flavors of doing so, but both of you, your medicine is really about like this sort of like coming back into your authentic truth and being like powerful in it.
And it's, that's been really helpful for me because I see all the ways that I think I make myself small and repress and both of you like your magic is like this, it's fiery, but in different flavors. But it's always, it's like coming back to the same thing like truth, truth, truth. Like self, self, self.
Kyley: That's because it's your magic too.
Eva: Oh yeah. Well it's so nice having like other women hold my hand through it. I gotta
Kyley: Yes, [00:39:00] for sure.
Eva: And so I say that because when I think of you, Susan, something that you, whether you know it or not, so, so I'll share this with the audience. Susan came to visit me and Tom in Brazil two weeks after I came to Brazil.
And I didn't know it, but I needed a, like you were my Sherpa at that time. 'cause I was coming into this new relationship. I had just moved my life here to Brazil. It was all of this change. It was like so much excitement. Um, but also, you know, new relationships. Like, it's such a tender, vulnerable space. And, and for me it's like new relationships with this person who I'm like madly in love with.
You know, like goo goo gaga head over heels. And your presence was just a reminder of like, come back to myself, come back to my truth. Like, don't do the thing that I think we can sometimes do in new relationships where it's like. [00:40:00] Um, well, I'll just speak for myself, like wanting it, I mean, again, it's an unconscious, but like wanting it to work and so just seeing ways where I was like maybe fawning or, or pretending, you know, so, so that everything would seem like it was, I just wanted it to be perfect, you know?
And I was afraid of being seen. That's what it is. It's like so vulnerable. It's so vulnerable when you love that deeply and it's so new. And that's what what I was feeling was like this vulnerability and when I feel vulnerable, I wanna contort, so to protect myself or so that I don't get hurt. And I, and then you came into the picture and you were like, so someone who I think modeled for me what it was to like live in my truth while also being so transparent and real and honest about areas in which that was also a place where you ha have been learning and practicing and continue to learn in practice.
So I think [00:41:00] there's a question in there. I think something about like your experience with how you found yourself through, I would say relationship, but actually maybe how you, how you found yourself through maybe not being in a relationship with people. Because I think that's also been your experience and I'm
wondering if you're open to speaking to that.
Susan: [00:42:00] [00:43:00] Um, I can still relate to everything that you're saying and, um, I mean, I shared with you and Kylie a little bit before we jumped on today that I went through a period where I was single for many years in my twenties I dated, but I, I didn't meet anyone that I, um, wanted to be with truly, and, and I had a lot of shame about that.
In my, in my twenties, I, my sisters, I have three sisters. They were all married, you know, my extended family, the vast majority coupled, um, my friends, the vast majority, [00:44:00] you know, in relationships. And, um, and I think also from this childhood of shame, you know, I think, I don't know, for some reason, the way that my mind was wired, like love was gonna save me, you know?
So it was like a lot of pressure also.
Eva: Oh, and you are such a romantic though, which I love.
Susan: I'm such a romantic.
Eva: you love, love unapologetically. Which is also, this is also radical to me in some ways because there's, I'm part of this like I'm too cool. Like I have this cool girl persona that I put on sometimes and you're just coming in like, I love, love.
And I'm like, whoa.
Susan: cool. Like I'm, I mean, I try to play cool, but like people can see that too, which is like extra not cool, you know?
Kyley: You are for sure, for sure.
Eva: And I'm also just so happy that you're speaking up for the single girlies actually is what I wanna speak to. 'cause I think this is a huge area of shame for a lot of people. This idea of like, oh, if we're not coupled that we make it mean a lot of things. Mm-hmm.
Susan: [00:45:00] Yeah. And I know that even for, for years, I would use my interpretation of like the manifestation world. Um, like, you attract what you are. I mean, I used all of that against myself. Um,
Eva: speak to that one a little bit more? Meaning like Yeah. Can you
Susan: well, as you know, I have this prior wound of being unlovable, right? So now I'm not, I'm not meeting someone I wanna be with.
I'm not falling in love. And so then, um, I was making that mean, you know, in this manifestation world of like, you attract what you are or this type of thing. Like, oh, I must really not be lovable, or like, I really must be broken, or I must not love myself enough. Or, you know, like this type of thing, which I, I doubt that's what they mean when they're saying these things.
But this can so be how the mind hears it in fear or definitely my mind. And Please come in.
Kyley: 'cause I have so much fire and [00:46:00] strong opinions on this topic, but I also think that whatever is unconscious, like all of our unconscious. Unprocessed beliefs get like poured into the things that we teach, right? This is why it's so moving to learn from someone who's really embodied.
Because if you haven't unlearned all of the places that you think, like I've caused my, I, I've, if I'm, if I got hurt, it's because I caused it and I'm unlovable. Right? Then you will weave that into the way that you teach about the unknowable laws of the universe. Right?
Susan: Oh, so true.
Kyley: 'cause I think so much of manifestation culture is, yes, I think I watched people process it in really painful ways, but I also think it's taught in really painful ways, right?
It's like control your thoughts. Like this is a test. What are you doing to cause this? Like, why are you attracting this to yourself? Like there's such unkind language, but also like the whole paradigm. I feel like it's so rooted in this very idea that like, you know, that goes back to like the little three-year-old kid [00:47:00] that's like, I must have caused this right.
And, um, so anyways, I don't think it's just a you problem,
Susan: And what I noticed too is that with that whole manifestation world, then when I do have thoughts like I'm unlovable or these like negative self-talk thoughts, then that becomes even scarier. 'cause now that's what I'm gonna bring about. And so there's this fear of self, which leads to less trust in self.
And um, so I did that really well. I know, I know that, I
Eva: You aced it? Yep.
Susan: I aced it. I experimented with that way and, um. And, you know, as I was learning more about the work of Byron Katie, I began to apply this approach to that shame. And so I, I wrote this log for the single ladies, quote unquote.
It was for any, um, gender or non-binary, but it was really about like, you know, it was called We Be Crazy. And it was, we believe crazy things. [00:48:00] And it was really exploring, um, my own fears around it, which of course, um, there's a lot in the collective. There are so many people that resonated with that. Um, so one example is I remember, uh, bumping into someone the sky that I had a huge crush on.
And we had met in where I live, Calgary, and then here we are bumping into each other in California. We get talking, I learn about his wife and their soon to be newborn. At some point it comes up that I'm single. And he said to me, well, just be happy till you get there. I was so insulted. I was so insulted.
Be happy till you get there. And so this is like one of the things that I would've explored on my blog, you know, why was that so offensive to me? And what I realized was that I was applying that to myself without him. I mean, that showed me, but I was really like feeling like life was a dress rehearsal, waiting for this [00:49:00] man to step in.
And then finally my life will start. You know, it was like I was living a half life. That was the story that I was living out of. And, um, through doing my own work on being single, like I ended up. Really making peace with the possibility that I may never meet a life partner and I may, you know, yeah.
Getting in relationships and then not working out. I mean, it's so fascinating to me. I mean, I enjoy the process of falling in love. I love learning. I love learning the hard way. You know, like I really like, I really like really getting what doesn't work to my bones, you know? So I was, I was really, I, I really did get to a place where, and I mean, there's so many benefits to being single and, um, there's so much beauty and you're just like, everyone's fun friend, you know, because you're just available.
You're just way more available. And, and now shifting into, you know, I've been in a relationship for seven months now, and it is the healthiest and most secure relationship I've [00:50:00] ever been in. And um, and what's so cool about that for me at this time in my life is. Whatever, the one who was afraid of not being in a relationship that, oh, I need to love myself perfectly, or X, y, Z.
It was, it's so cool to find myself in the middle of a relationship that I feel so solid in and I don't feel like I love myself perfectly. You know? I don't think that I achieved some great success and then that allowed this. Yes. I think that the work that I've done on myself does make a difference. And you know, it's, again, that thing that we are talking about, like, if it's all on me, it's all my fault.
You know, there's also such a thing as timing. There's also such a thing as other people's unresolved baggage. There's also such a thing, as you know, and, and so yeah, like, I wanna do my part, but then, then just trust life to see what happens. Um.
Eva: Can we back up a little bit though, because I think I wanna speak to the [00:51:00] listener who is single, who might also be struggling with some of these. Well, I might be struggling with that experience, right? Wherever they are in their life, whether they're 20 or 70 years old, the stories that come with that.
And then you had said like you had made peace with possibly never being in a relationship. I think that like, taking outta context, someone could hear that and be like, well, fuck that. Like, how I don't want that. You know, it's like that, how is that supposed to be helpful? Or, or they may see that as being resigned or that might just seem like so sad.
And I'm curious if you can speak to your experience of what that means to come, to come into acceptance of that. Because I actually think there's also a little bit of the work in there. Like Byron Katie's the work, you know, this idea of, um, one of the, you know, whatever the number six is, like, I'm willing, I look forward to you.
Insert the thing that you're like the most
Susan: Never falling in love. Yeah, never finding a life [00:52:00] partner.
Eva: Yeah. Can you just speak to like, what does that, why would you do that? Why would you wanna find peace in never finding a life partner?
Susan: Well, for me, I was already terrified that that would be the case for me. And so,
Eva: worst fear, right?
Susan: it was my worst fear, you know? 'cause of course, from being little, that was like, oh, that'll save me. So my worst fear was that I would never experience that. And, um, now here I am, like at that time in my life and I'm living with this image of a future where it never happens and I'm bombarded by, like I'm looking at that future image of myself, never falling in love.
And I was feeling miserable in the moment. I hadn't even lived my life. You know, I was in my twenties, I was in my thirties when this would arise in me and I was already living it out as if it was happening. And so [00:53:00] beginning to look at why I'm afraid of that, beginning to look at what do I believe it means about me if I don't find a life partner, beginning to look at all of the painful conclusions I had come to around this fear of it not happening and working with those and, and becoming curious about them. That did begin to open me to seeing how beautiful life is with or without a partner. It wasn't about denying how beautiful it can be with a partner. It was more about, or where I ended up as I sat in my work, was really beginning to let in and receive the richness and abundance of life without that particular flavor of life.
Partner.
Eva: Hmm.
Susan: And um, and I was still dating, you know, I was still, I was still, you know, going through that type of thing. And it just, what I noticed is that the [00:54:00] moment that I was like, okay, if that's my life path, like when I would hit that genuine willingness, like I'm willing to meet it, then I no longer had to play out the terrifying future. And I was actually way more present and engaged in my life. And, um, you know, the funny thing is, is when I'm out for coffee with a girlfriend who's in a relationship, in that moment, neither of us are in relationship.
We're out for coffee together at a cafe, you know, but I would bring this identity with me everywhere. But the moment that it was no longer defined 'cause of course being single wasn't just being single. Being single is not painful in and of itself. It's just like an objective fact. You could say. Um. All the meanings I had on it of what it meant about me.
It means I'm unlovable. It means I'll never find it. It means that people look at me like I'm weird, which I do think that the younger generation has, is a little bit freer from, like, if I look at the older generations, it's a little bit more entrenched. Whereas [00:55:00] I look at the younger generations, they're like, what is relationship?
You
Eva: Yeah, exactly.
Susan: they just have this freedom around it, you know?
Eva: Oh, that's actually nice to point out.
Susan: time.
Eva: Yeah, that's nice to point out though. Yeah. Way to go Gen Z. But
Susan: Yeah.
Eva: um, but what I wanna speak to is basically this idea of like, what I see you do often and. Is this idea of like, let's just go into, and I think this is also part of like what the work can help us with is like, go, what's your greatest fear?
Okay, let's go into it completely.
Susan: Mm-hmm.
Eva: And 'cause what I'm hearing you say is like, and then we can explore that. And I think what I have seen with some of my friends is an intellectual exploration of it and being like, okay, yeah. Like I could see that I could be happy forever, but, but there's something that you're speaking to I that I think is like richer and deeper when what you called like the genuine willingness, like the, it's such an o like it's [00:56:00] true. Like un it's just, it's like not, it's true, it's real. It's like this, you're genuinely really, really willing to experience that. And it takes, at first glance, I think a lot of courage. 'cause it's like, no, we're, we're like, no to go into the place that we're like the most afraid of, but. I think that there's something in the work of Byron Katie that actually holds us.
And for me, it makes me feel safe that I can go in there. 'cause I, I get to see reality. I see in reality, like I experience in reality actually that Yeah, it's an experiential thing of like, life can be beautiful if I am, you know, if I've never partnered with somebody. And to really feel that, to be able to get there, I think is like, so transformative.
Susan: Mm-hmm.
Eva: it's freedom essentially. It's like [00:57:00] true, genuine freedom.
Susan: Yeah. And I find it such a relief not to run away anymore, you know? 'cause we can run for a while and some people can run for a long time. I'm not that good at running, you know, run, running or numbing or denying like, you know, it can appear to work for a time and, and it's so understandable and we don't know.
Another way, I found is like, it's such a relief to turn towards, you know, like the running away from actually makes it so much scarier.
Eva: Mm-hmm.
Susan: That's just what I've noticed, but the turning towards, and like really sitting down with the fear and, and genuinely taking a look at it, you know, it is so different than what you said, Eva.
It's not just like, oh, I'll be fine. You know, you can kind of feel it like where you're like stuffing it, stuffing the fear with like, I'll be fine, I'll be fine if I don't, you know, but you can feel it. There's just like, it's like you've just put a cap on the tension, the stress, um, whereas with, with this approach or any [00:58:00] approach, that's a turn towards, you know, it's, it's like it is the first step into safety.
Eva: Mm-hmm.
Kyley: I love this so much. Um. And I love that you're, the way you're speaking about it to like this, like really big huge fear. And I also think we can do this in such small ways on such a regular basis. Like one of the things that will happen a lot is a client will come to me and they'll be like, okay, I wanna do this, but I'm really afraid that no one will sign up or whatever.
Let's just imagine it. I really wanna put out this offer, but I'm afraid that no one will sign up. And I'll often say, oh, I have all sorts of data where I could tell you why your great different will sign up. But I'm actually completely understood that, let's imagine that nobody does sign up. Like let's actually sit in the no one signing up for a second.
Because I think what you're saying is exactly right. Like we, we when when we can't face it, we have to run from it and that means we're tired and that means that we are like experience that like never settled, never safe [00:59:00] pursuit kind of feeling that so many of us have. I think it's because we're just running from our own monsters all the time.
And I don't know, I have not found any. Actual relief that's like lasting other than turning towards our monsters, you know, maybe having a pal to go and face them with you. But, um, I, I just don't think there's any other way.
Susan: Mm-hmm.
Eva: Yeah.
Susan: found another way.
Eva: That's interesting though, because like for whatever reason, my reaction to like, oh, I could be single forever, maybe because I've like worked through that or something. I was like, okay, yeah, like I can feel safe in that, but this idea of I'm gonna sign, I'm gonna like put something out there and no one's gonna sign up.
I'm like, no,
Susan: So
Eva: I, I got like, yeah. It's like, it's a good litmus test, right? Like for anybody listening too, it's like the litmus test is like, how much are you in resistance to a thing of like going all the way [01:00:00] in. It's showing you, I think you're not yet free or believing Some stories are like just not true or something, you know, like there's some sort of like block
Susan: Mm-hmm.
Kyley: And, and if you are believing that you are unlovable, let's use that one. And you're, if you believe something like that, then you're also really attached to it. There's a re there's a really good chance if, like, the experience of shame or unlovability or worthlessness, like, um. Eva's lying, like I'm a piece of shit.
That part of you who says like, thinks she is a piece of shit, like if that is like, when that's loud, wherever that's existing, not only does it exist, but you're attached to it, right? Like, and I imagine it like this, like ratty old security blanket. So like for myself, it's morning when I like woke up and was just like feeling sad about this like, interpersonal situation.
And I watched how like it [01:01:00] was, I was like, there was a part of me that was like, ah, we get to get out the sad blanket. You know? Like I watched, it was like, it was like, like an inside, uh, inside out. And this sadnesses turned to shine, right? It was just like, oh, we get to wrap ourselves up in on lovability.
We've known this one for so long. This is our coziest pair of PJs, right? Like, and I'm not even judging myself for that. It's like there's like a real genuine, like this is familiar, this is safe. We know this one. And I think what's interesting is, um, is in our attachment to it, so like to build a map, if we, we have, we have our own lovability belief that we're attached to and then we cast outside for rescue and we can pick anything, right?
So younger you took, picked romantic love. Like I've picked everything from like money to, you know, my kids being a certain way to my clothes being a certain way. Like it doesn't fucking matter, right? We just pick a new thing [01:02:00] every
Eva: Yeah, you could pick anything.
Yep.
Kyley: and then, and then how great we have a measuring stick of just how unworthy we are, right?
We, the part of us that wants that, like loves this ratty ass blanket, doesn't want the love. Right? The part of us that like loves this ratty ass blanket is like, yes, let's be broke forever. 'cause then we get to keep wearing this blanket. And I, I think we just have to see with so much compassion that like on some level we're doing our best to just keep walling around in that unlovability.
'cause we know it.
Susan: Totally. And I love that you called it a ratty security blanket, but it really, it's a, it's really the perfect metaphor because it is a security blanket. 'cause when I look at why am I afraid of dropping, I'm unlovable in those moments. Like, look at me single and in shame and believing I'm unlovable. If I was to drop it, my fear was that I would open [01:03:00] myself up to really painful rejection.
Kyley: Yeah.
Susan: Believing I'm unlovable stopped me from opening my heart too wide. It stopped me from making the first move over someone I actually was genuinely attracted to, you know, and so it, it comes with this promise of security
Eva: Mm-hmm.
Susan: and to see that also really helps me have compassion or, oh, of course it's not so easy just to put it aside, you know?
'cause it is, it is vulnerable to live without those identities. It's unfamiliar.
Kyley: who will I be without this security blanket? You know? Um, and maybe we don't wanna find out.
Eva: Yeah, I feel la la la. I feel conflicted about this because what I agree with everything you're saying. Both of you. I experienced that the comfort of my favorite story, which is that I'm bad, or it used to be I'm a piece of shit now it's just I'm bad [01:04:00] and I know, again, when I do the work, one of the questions in the work is like, what do you like about this story?
Like, what's the benefit? And I can see like, it's what, you know what Tom, my partner will say it's a warm bath. You know, you're just, I just, it's so cozy and comfortable and I can see that. But there's also a part of me that is so. Fucking sick of the story.
Kyley: Oh yeah.
Eva: And it, it's confusing 'cause I'm sick of it and it's like, that's real.
But there's also, when I spoken to you about this, Kylie, like a masochistic side of me where I can see sometimes I really like the pain. I like, it's like this weird s and m type shit or something that I also don't completely understand, but I like punishing myself and then it feels good. And I think that's just probably like some toxic behavior that needs to get rewired where I'm confusing like that pain for love or something. So I, I have more that I wanna share on about that, but anything that you guys wanna speak to that, that, that, that contention [01:05:00] between those things of where you're like, I know it's really comfortable, but also I'm really fucking tired of the story, you know.
Susan: Well, for me it's to, for me, seeing why I'm holding onto it gives some compassion to the why, and then it also allows me to begin to check that out, like. So, you know, look at me single at that time, feeling ashamed of it. And this fear that if, if I no longer believe that I'm unlovable, this fear that I'm going to expose myself and be vulnerable to rejection. Well, underneath that fear is this idea that a, I would be rejected, which I could really take a look at. You know, is that true? But also that if I was, I couldn't handle it. And three, like, what am I making rejection mean? You know, it's like rejection will be the ultimate reinforcement of you being unlovable.
Now, if I'm [01:06:00] living with those things, and if I'm believing that those are true, it's very intelligent to believe I'm unlovable. That's a lot of pain I'm saving myself from. So as soon as I get in touch with the fears or the reason why I like it, then I can begin to explore that. Like, huh, does rejection mean I'm bad?
You know, is that true? Um, if I was rejected, I wouldn't be able to handle it. I would never be accepted if I put myself out there. Is that true? So that can begin to kind of like direct what to work with, you know, in these areas that we think we wanna be free of. But we can see we're still holding on.
Eva: Yeah. Yeah. I think I, yeah, I think that's spot on. It's, it's so tricky because holding onto the story doesn't let me go to the root of it. Like what's underneath? It's just, it just shuts, shuts out. It's like lack of curiosity, like we were talking about earlier. It shuts down any exploration of like what's really under there.
And I think there's definitely still more for me to explore. I wanted to share an antidote about an [01:07:00] experience that I had, but Kylie, did you wanna say
Kyley: Yeah, I do have something. 'cause I think it actually ties back to what we were saying about perfectionism, because what I hear is in those two parts is the like sad Linus blanket of like, and then the part, the, the part who's like, get the fuck over yourself. This story sucks. I think that's your perfectionist, right? And so it's just like where, you know, so it's just these same old parts duking it out of like one being like, no one's ever gonna love us. We'll just stay here at the bottom of the, well, forever and ever. And then the perfectionist is like, yeah, you piece of shit.
Eva: Yeah. Oh my God. It's such a deadly trap. Like it's a vicious fucking cycle. Yeah. Mm-hmm.
Kyley: the other thing that I was thinking of. Is about how like they're actually both about control, right? Like shame is so unbelievably painful to feel right? And, and [01:08:00] so we just have 1,000,001 coping mechanisms to avoid feeling it. And the perfectionist is all about control. We will earn love and we are in charge of exactly how much we get.
'cause we just have to be good enough, right? Which protection is all about controlling how much we get. And then the sad, you know, security blanket won't be self is also controlled. 'cause it's just like none. That's the answer. I'm in control. The answer is none.
Susan: Exactly.
Kyley: like still, either way, it's just like, and now we don't have to feel shame because
Eva: Mm-hmm. So what's your entry point if you have one? Kylie? I mean, 'cause Susan talked about compassion to get and, and I have some thoughts on that that I can share if you want, as you're
Kyley: I mean, I think for me. For me, which is related to compassion, but like really just every time, anytime I can see the different parts of myself and like the play that they're like the, you know, the three act planning that they're acting out,
Susan: I really saw it theatrical when you were doing it.
Kyley: like, it just [01:09:00] feels so helpful and it does help.
Like I, it, you know, like, it, it does help me like laugh about, I feel like whenever I can have a sense it can, especially because shame is so fucking painful when I can have genuine humor about it. It is just really helps, you know? And so like, I'm being kind of irreverent and silly, but I actually think that's my answer to your question is like seeing the math but also like laughing about the ridiculous of not to dismiss it, not to make it wrong, but because like we're so fucking weird and hilarious.
Eva: No, totally. No. I think you're speaking to something. Both things are, are medicine for softening. Like again, it's that brick that I was talking about earlier, and then like the compassion and the humor. And I think humor is like,
Susan: Mm-hmm.
Eva: like, like authentic humor is so intelligent and it's such good medicine, and it's just like, it's like a way that I don't, don't take it all so seriously.
Do you know what I mean? And then I can do some more of that exploring and it softens it and it's, yeah. [01:10:00] Mm-hmm. But,
Kyley: have, um, I have like a very somatic experience of shame often in my stomach. And like when I was in my twenties, it was just this like very intense chronic stomach ache. I don't get it like that anymore, but when it shows up, like that's usually the first place I notice it. And so I call it my shame snakes and I will say, hi shames snakes. And there's just like, there's just something in that that like just one little breath of space, you know.
Eva: Yeah. Yeah. But I did wanna share with. Both of you. An experience that I had in ceremony recently that, you know, the story of I'm bad is my favorite story and I've been working through it and with it for years now. And I got to a place in my ceremony where I was still getting so fucking frustrated because I was like, it's still here.
I've done all the things and it, and it just continues to rear its ugly head. And I could laugh at that too, which was helpful. And I eventually got to a point where I was like, I'm so sick of trying to get rid of the story of [01:11:00] that I'm bad that I landed on, okay. So I went into being bad. Which is what you were speaking to.
We, what we were speaking to earlier, Susan, about like, okay, go into my biggest fear. What if my biggest fear is that I'm bad? And I just went into it and I was like experienced like, okay, I'm fuck it. Like I'm bad. And just like really genuinely as you spoke to, like. A genuine willingness to just be bad.
And that was, I think it's something that I'm continuing to play with, but it was like, I saw that me trying to get rid of the story was the thing that was keeping it alive. And instead of just, you know, doing the opposite, this is a wonderful example of like, okay, well, so you've tried everything Eva, let's try just being with your bad.
Okay, you're a piece of shit. So what? Like, so what? So now what? Now what? Like, you know, truly I could see the freedom and like, okay, I'm gonna hurt people, so what? Like, I'm gonna disappoint people. [01:12:00] Like, so what? Like I could just see myself really living my life with the story of like really allowing myself to be bad.
And that feels maybe. Obvious to some people, but revolutionary to me, is why, and then you sent me something Susan, about like leaning into your ness, and I was like, perfect timing. Yeah. I just think we need different, different things for different times, you know?
Susan: Mm-hmm.
Eva: Yeah.
Susan: Can I just circle back on one thing you said earlier also about, I'm bad.
Eva: Mm-hmm.
Susan: You were saying how you, you don't know if it's like a masochistic part of you that likes believing it. Like there's something that feels good about saying I'm bad. And something that I've noticed about that story in me is that when I believe I'm bad, like if I'm actually bad, right?
Which is what we think when we're believing it. If I'm actually bad and I know that I'm bad. [01:13:00] There's something about it that like proves I'm good. Like at least I'm good enough to know I'm bad. And so that's, I just wanted to offer that. I don't know if it resonates with you, but it's, um, it's less like masochistic and more like, oh, like something really thinks that that is good.
Like, being able to tell the difference between what's good and bad. Like there's nothing
Eva: yeah. Like
Susan: who murders someone who thinks that they're innocent. You know? It's like, well, I know I'm bad, so that makes me good. You know?
Kyley: that's a really good observation. Like, that's the sa, that's the, that's the like saving grace of it. All right.
Susan: Right,
Kyley: if you stop, if you stop thinking that you're bad, then like there's nothing saving you, there's no, there's no shred of goodness left, right?
Eva: yes.
Susan: That, that's the fear. That's exactly it. Yeah.
Kyley: Right. Right.
Eva: Oh, that's so interesting. Yeah. 'cause I could see the righteousness in myself in a good way that I love, like yummy, yummy righteousness. You know? Where I'm like, well, yeah, I can discern, like I [01:14:00] can tell, which is very interesting. Yeah. I'll have to, I wanna look at that a
Susan: Which was sweet when I found that because it really showed, um, something in me wants to be good,
Kyley: Yeah,
Susan: and if I was truly bad, why would I wanna be good? You know? I don't think, like, to use a symbolism of like the devil. I was just saying this to a client yesterday, like, I don't think he's like, oh, I forgave someone today. Really good about that. You know, like, it doesn't feel good to be good when you're actually bad.
Kyley: yeah,
Susan: That's how, you know, feels good, you know? Love feels good. It's good.
Eva: Hmm. Okay. I think we're gonna come up to the end
Kyley: yeah. So I have to go rescue kids off a bus. Should we
Eva: Yeah, let's do a round of joy. Well, before we do that, Susan, is there anything else that you wanna speak on maybe really quickly before we wrap up with some joy? And then you can also at the end, share how people can find you.
Susan: I am just so grateful to be here with both of you. It's just been such a lovely [01:15:00] conversation and I mean, Kylie, Eva has talked so highly of you and I'm, it's just such a delight to meet you.
Eva: I would love to have both of you here in Brazil at the same time.
Susan: Let's do it.
Eva: putting that on my Vision. Vision board.
Kyley: Right. Yes, please.
Eva: Okay, Susan, so as our guest, we'll defer to you first. What's one thing that's bringing you Joy?
Susan: So it's like very recent, but I've decided I'm just gonna make bad art. And I'm like, like I just, I got myself a sketchbook and it's like on purpose and it's not, it's okay if it looks nice, but it's just really, I'm so excited to just unplug, get off my phone and to just look at almost like still life and, and just draw poorly and I'm really enjoying it. And, and there's something about also like, I'm really consciously noticing [01:16:00] the addiction to phone and, and really wanting to intentionally make space to be with my surroundings. It's easy when I'm around people, but it's, if I have space and time, you know, on my own, it's like, okay. And there's something about calling it bad art that also just makes it fun.
Eva: Uhhuh.
Susan: So.
Kyley: Yeah.
Eva: Oh, I just love the intentionality. Be behind that though, actually to create, and also because you are naturally quite the creator. So anyway.
Kyley: It's so liberating. My daughter is six and my son's eight, and my daughter is like, really loves art and crafting, and she's always asking me to leave her a like note in her lunchbox, which is very, very, very sweet. And you really can't say no if you get that request. And she always wants me to draw things and I just never really learned how to draw.
So like I maybe could have been a good art, right? But I just don't have the, I just never learned. And so it's hilarious because it's just so sweet like making art with her because it's just so [01:17:00] clear that she's like relish. She's just loves the making of it
Susan: Mm-hmm.
Kyley: be doing the activity with her. Like I just ha like, what good does it mean?
What good does it do me? It's so clear that it would rob me of something by trying to make it good or giving a shit about it being good and like. It's really fun. I'm really excited. I'm excited for your bad art
Eva: Me too. I'm, I'm kind of, I'm inspired actually. I'm like, yeah, I feel like I, I'm always looking for ways to create more and I get stuck and so it's also helpful when you're like, it can just be really shitty.
Susan: Yeah, and just doing it for the sake of doing it.
Eva: Yeah.
Kyley: Yeah.
Eva: What about you, Kylie? What's something that's bringing you
Kyley: I mean, aside from this exquisite conversation in which Susan made me sob, like five minutes into the episode, um, and finally getting to meet you, um, oh, what is me? Joy, right? Oh, we're gonna have summer vacation soon over here. So by the time you guys are listening to this, we'll be back in school because we [01:18:00] are recording this the, at the beginning of summer, I suppose I should have picked more time appropriate joy, but here we are, but like, I just can't fucking wait.
It's like 90 degrees here today. I think I'm gonna go get my kids off the bus and maybe sneak them off to the beach for a few hours. Like I. I am very excited about Summer.
Eva: Woo hoo. I know we're
Susan: That sounds
Eva: summer, and I'm so excited for you.
Kyley: Thank you. Thank
Eva: your jam.
Kyley: you. How about you? My love.
Eva: Um, okay. I wanna share something that is also very new in my life, but. So we'll have to see how it goes, but I'm actually so fucking excited about it. It's ridiculous how excited I am about it. And it's, um, as you know, both of you know, I struggle with chronic fatigue. My health stuff has been like coming up really big, but I've, and I've struggled to exercise, which is a bummer for me because I really love movement and I think it's really important, but not knowing how to incorporate that into my life.
And I just found this woman who has chronic fatigue on YouTube anyway. And it's an [01:19:00] exercise regimen that is just like so simple and it's like arm circles, like do 10 arm circles. You know? It's like, it's um, and like other really, really simple things that I've realized that the reason I always struggled with exercise is 'cause I knew I needed to keep it simple, but I did not have the capacity.
'cause my personality is always like, go hard. And that's probably part of the reason why I have chronic fatigue. And so I've found this thing that I've just started doing only for a couple of weeks. But it's been so helpful. Like I can incorporate movement into my body in a sustainable way, which is like honestly a game changer.
Like I've been wanting to exercise for so long and I didn't have access to it, and it was because I didn't know how to go gentle. That was basically it, because my training and exercise is like very intense. I've always loved very intense exercise and
Kyley: as opposed to all the other things that you don't like to be [01:20:00] intense.
Eva: Exactly, exactly. And even like honestly, even a year ago, I don't think I could have.
Been humble enough to do these exercises. 'cause I would've been like, oh, this is so stupid. It's not doing anything. And I would've just like poo-pooed it. And I think my struggle this year with my health has humbled me enough to be like, oh wait, let me do this exercise that this like 70-year-old grandma is doing.
Like, that's just the level that I'm at right now. But I think that this could actually be the entry, you know, gentle oftentimes is the entry to more. And so it's like, you know, just learning that in a different way.
Kyley: I love that.
Eva: Okay. And Kylie, what's something that's bringing you joy right now?
Kyley: My joy is also about exercise. because I just joined this, I've, I also have been like, okay, girlfriend. It's like, I want, I've been wanting routine and structure around working out, and I just joined the coolest gym ever. And it's this small strength training gym that's, this woman runs, [01:21:00] she's like my age.
She's very cool. It's all these classes have like six to eight people in them. And so you get like cu, they like one-on-one attention on how to do all this strength training shit. And I've always liked the idea of like, I don't know, it's pretty intimidating to like, figure out how you're supposed to lift up some big weight or Right.
Like, I don't, and my brain isn't interested in figuring it out, but I like someone telling me how to do it and she's like super nerdy about the science of it and she kept being like, oh, like I will like give you less information. And I was like, no, no, no, give me more. Like, I love, like I love this, the learning of it.
So anyway, it just feels like, and like when I first walked into my first class, there was like immediately, like lots of different body types. Lots of different ages in this like six person class and like a giant pride flag. Like it just was like, okay, these are my people. Like, you know? Um, and I feel really, I feel super much like you.
It is early in the process, but it feels like it's got staying power [01:22:00] because of both community and also, um, expensive enough that I have to commit.
Susan: Perfect.
Eva: exactly. That's gonna, yeah.
Kyley: So, uh, we'll tune in six months from now and Eva and I are both
Eva: Yeah. We'll report, let's report back.
Kyley: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.
Eva: Okay, cool. Awesome.
Kyley: Thank you so much.
Eva: Susan, how can people find you and work with you? I mean, we didn't even get into the heart of, of the work, and there's so much more we could say, and I would love to have you come back on, but, but I think if people, um, enjoy the flavor of you, how can they find you?
Susan: You can find me on the work with susan.com and on Instagram I am at Reclaim Your Light.
Eva: Awesome. Woo.
Susan: So good to be with you both. Thank you. I.
Eva: Love you.