Hello Universe

Living in the In-Between & Tarot with Meg Jones-Wall

Episode Summary

Meg Jones-Wall comes on the show to discuss the liminal space after the birth of a big project — namely her new book on Tarot, Finding the Fool.

Episode Notes

Meg Jones-Wall comes on the show to discuss the liminal space after the birth of a big project — namely her new book on Tarot, Finding the Fool.

Meg’s website: 3amtarot.com
Meg’s Instagram: @3am.tarot

Safe and Secure: https://www.evaliao.com/safeandsecure
Money Magic Workshop: https://portal.ravenandmerope.com/money-magic

Join the FLOW waitlist to get early bird pricing

Eva's instagram: @iamevaliao

Book a discovery call with Eva

Kyley's Instagram: @kyleycaldwell

Join Kyley’s Facebook group: Monsters & Magic

Grab your ticket for Magic Circle

Episode Transcription


Kyley: [00:00:00] Hello. Hello. Welcome back to Hello Universe. Uh, this is Kyley with a solo intro and I am so jazzed about today's episode. It's one of my dear, dear personal friends and a really excellent conversation. But before I introduce our guest, I have a bit of promo to share with you. Um, two very cool things. One in the world of Eva, her program Safe and Secure, uh, doors are open.

And this is her program for, uh, meditation and spiritual support specifically for those who, [00:01:00] um, have been impacted by addiction. In particular, those of you who have, who love or have loved someone with an addiction. So if your parents were addicts, if your partner is or was an addict, um, Ex relationships, right?

Like if, if addiction has been part of your life, it has, um, woven its way through your heart and subconscious. And when we love people who are addicts, um, we, you know, contort and perform and sacrifice ourselves in all sorts of ways in order to maintain that relationship or kind of eek out what we need from.

And, um, that can have a lasting impact. And, uh, as listeners know, Eva has her own personal journey of that with her mom, and, uh, is an exceptional meditation teacher. Um, because I also think meditation, [00:02:00] that seems really scary to a lot of us. Like it's, it's really rooted in like there's a right way and there's a wrong way, and like you're doing it wrong.

And so then you don't do it because it doesn't feel good to think you're doing it wrong all the time. Right. and, and so I think that the intersection of these spaces is like just pretty fucking baller. And, um, if you are someone who has been impacted by addiction, and if you are someone who is looking for a spiritual way to like move through some of the either heartache or just learned patterns and behaviors around that, um, This program's for you and I, I have a good friend who took this program in the past and spoke very highly of it, obviously, cuz it's Eva who is better than Eva.

Um, so go sign up for Safe and Secure and then when you're done with that, oops, you can go to eva.com to do that. And then when you are done signing up for Safe and Secure, go sign up for my brand new workshop that is [00:03:00] free. Um, Liz Simpson. Podcast guest, my business partner. Um, we are, um, running a free workshop called Money Magic.

Um, I have run this workshop a couple of times. I've had actually, Not to sound like a big deal, but I've had hundreds of people register for this workshop, which feels pretty fucking cool to realize, um, uh, in the past. Um, and it's always really potent. Liz and I are running it tog together this time. Uh, it's two days, it's gonna fucking knock your socks off.

Um, this space that we're holding is specifically about looking at money. From a place of deep compassion for all of the emotional entanglements that show up in money. You know, we expect ourselves to, um, perform perfectly in order to receive money and we expect ourselves to, um, have an emotionally [00:04:00] simple relationship with money.

And neither of those are true. And there are. Such few places that can actually give you space to look at the anxiety and the shame and the wordy and the self-protection and the quote unquote self-sabotage and, um, the stories of value and, um, you know, personal value and worth that we have wrapped up in money.

Um, they're deep and they have a huge impact. Everywhere I look, there's tools about budgeting and hustle and there's a lot of stuff about money blocks and like kind of manifestation quick fixes, but I find there to be a very limited amount of space to look at. The really deep emotional complexity that is money.

And so that's what Money Magic is. It's a two day workshop. It is completely free and um, it's a really big deal. So come sign up for that [00:05:00] and enjoy this episode, which is with the. Beautiful, exquisite, brilliant. Meg Jones wall. Uh, they're a dear fortune friend of mine and also the author of a brand new book called Finding the Fool, which is a.

Really, really, really great book about tarot. Um, as we discussed in the episode, Meg's perspective on tarot is very much rooted in giving you permission and you the power and allowing the tarot to be a tool to ree you to your own inner knowing and your own intuition, while also having access to this really beautiful, complex web of meaning, um, and meaning making tools.

Um, and. I have been reading her book. I really, really, really love it. I wish if I had had this book when I was first becoming a witch, I think it would have a really different relation. I know I would've a really different relationship [00:06:00] to tarot than I do now, which for me personally is like, okay, it's kind of cool.

I like when smart people talk about it, but I don't practice it myself. Um, in part because it felt too rooted and right and wrong, and I kind of left it, left it behind earlier. Um, And of all people, Meg always makes me like, love it and fall back in love with it. Um, and this episode is a really great conversation about tarot and, and all of the topics I was just mentioning, but it's also a really great episode about, um, liminal space and transformation.

We talk about like, what the hell happens when you birth something huge like a book, and then figure out who you are on the other side. So, I love this episode. I love Meg. I love finding the fool. Go buy five copies right now and enjoy the episode.

We're so excited. Welcome back. Me?

Meg: Thank you. Thank you for having me,

Kyley: [00:07:00] Yeah. I've been so jazzed. Um, I've been like eagerly reading your book and anticipation

Meg: Oh, yay.

Kyley: Yes. Um, so yeah, so you know the drill cuz you've been on the show before. But, um, let's jump right into it. Tell us what life is teaching you right now.

My dear friend.

Meg: what life is teaching me. Um, well, I am in a very weird, like, post pub liminal messy space of like, now what, what, what, um, which is fun and totally chill. And I don't mind that at all. . I'm very comfortable to be in the, what the fuck is up with this space. Um, so

Kyley: Was that in earnest or was that sarcasm? I,

Meg: Both

Kyley: yeah. Okay. That's what I

Meg: Yes, . It started as sarcastic, but it was also Ernest, but it was also definitely sarcastic.

That's where I am right now. Um, yeah, I think I'm really like learning a lot about like, internal narratives and thinking about like truth and authenticity and like what transformation looks like and feels [00:08:00] like and accomplishes and doesn't accomplish. And, um, yeah, thinking a lot about what I want my next projects to be and where I wanna put time and energy and creativity, but also like reflecting a lot in like who I am as a person and like what feeds me and like what perhaps I've done that I like, don't feel great about and what I've done that I do feel great about.

So it's a big like end of cycle kind of waiting to see what the next. Cycle becomes like hermit moon number nine sort of energy over here. So yeah, it's a, it's a place.

Eva: It's a place for sure.

Meg: it's a place, yeah.

Kyley: can I, can I ask what feel? Cause I feel like this is something a lot of us can relate to, right? These moments where you. , like in some kind of transition, or even more like in the, like the part of transition, that's the pause, right? Because there's a transition that's like, oh, you know, Eva, I'm moving across the [00:09:00] country.

But there's a moment beforehand that's like, I know things are like in flux and there's nothing, there's no action for me to take. I just like, all I can do is like be in the, in between, um, or liminal spaces you called it. And then maybe like worried

Meg: Yeah. try to trust, but you're also like what ? Yeah.

Kyley: And then I, I'm curious to know what, well, first just acknowledging that, that that place of like the pause before action and transition, but then also what has felt helpful for you as you float around in your discomfort and possib.

Eva: Wait,

Meg: I think.

Eva: we, before you answer that question, I wanna take a pause just for context. So, are you taught, are you, and for our listeners, this liminal space that you're in, is this in relation to your book? Like having it be sort of like out, like where you are right now, it's out, and then now you're like, what's next?

Is that the

Meg: That's part of it. Yeah. I think I'm also just like in the grander scheme of things, like who am I and what am I doing? And like, what, what is my [00:10:00] purpose? And like, you know, I, this book has been, uh, the book has definitely a big piece of it, I think because it's been something like, I conceived of this in 2019, you know, and I've been working towards it and on it and around it for such a long time, and now it's out and it's sort of, I guess I have to do something else now, huh?

like, or do I? Yeah. And like, what do I want that to be? Am I staying in tarot? Am I doing something completely different? Am I doing something related? Am I, you know, can I afford to like, take another four years to write a book? Do I have to like, get another job? Like, you know, it's like, there's just like a lot of like moving pieces.

Um, and it's given a lot of opportunity for also like personal reflection and like, what feeds my creativity, what feels true to me, um, reflecting on choices I've made and relationships I've created and like communities I've invested in. It's just, it's like a huge reckoning. Um, thinking about, you know, things I've done that I regret and things I've done that I would've done [00:11:00] differently and things that I've done that were painful, but I learned a lot from, you know, there's just like, there's so many things to look at.

And because I don't have this. I don't know. I have like five or six, maybe seven, like things simmering and I'm trying to kind of decide which pot to stir very seven of cups, like what am I doing? Um, and so it, yeah, it feels like a really good opportunity to look at everything. But that is also like, I don't know, it can be, I think for some people it can be a really comfortable fluid space.

And for me, I think having been in a space of I know what my goal is and I know what I'm working towards for such a long time, for so many years, it's a little uncomfortable. Like I'm a little, like, I gotta get, I gotta figure out what I'm doing so I can fucking do it. You know?

Eva: you are like, this is crazy to me. Before I got onto this podcast, I was writing a newsletter and also my joy today was gonna be about. The, the liminal space. So this is like, so

Meg: Oh, I love it. I love it.

Eva: I saw this post that like sort of really gay language to where I am as well, which is like [00:12:00] the time between, um, like, oh God, I can't remember the quote.

It was from a, from spring wash who was this wonderful meditation teacher who's also been on our podcast. Something like the ending and also the not yet like that is a sacred space. And I was like, oh my God. That's what I'm in right now. I'm in a sacred, I'm, I'm in the sacred space and it's fucking terrifying sometimes , like, I think it does depend on your personality.

I'm with you, Meg. Like I, you know, I like having goals and I can be a very focused person, but I think it's actually because that's my norm. It's really helpful for me to be in the liminal space because it's my, my uncomfortable zone and it's challenging me. And, and also every, like when I look back in hindsight, every time I've been in the liminal space in the, like what was, and not yet, those have been the most.

Beautiful, like messy shore, but also like transformative and flowery times. Like it's this weird ass space that's like, [00:13:00] um, that is where the transformation happens, I think. And just for context, so I broke up with my partner and I moved to Austin and I'm Don't, yeah, just like there's a lot of change and, and that's ending and I don't know what's up yet either.

It's totally open and so it is like, okay, I think I have a choice of like, am I gonna be scared or am I going to use the tools that I have to feel safe in my body so that I can actually enjoy it?

Meg: Mm. Does it feel like an either or to you? Like does it can, do those things feel like they can take up space simultaneously or does it feel like it has to be one road or the other? Do you know what I mean?

Eva: do, which things feel like they can take up space

Meg: Like, like that you have to know what you're doing or that you can like exist in this like not sure space, like does it feel like there has to be a choice or does it feel like you can like start to move down one road while keeping pieces of

Eva: yeah, I think it, I think you can, oh, I would like to do both, I

Meg: Yeah. I feel like that's the ideal, right?

Eva: Yeah.

Meg: [00:14:00] Yeah.

Kyley: I also wanna add, you both pointed out like, oh, depending on your temperament, like this is, I think people who say that that place is easier either full of shit or they've been through it so many times that they have created for them a sense of safety in the inherent discomfort of being unmoored.

You know, like we,

Meg: of their routine or something. So it's

Kyley: like we, we, or like, like we spend, or like they've built a kind of like resilience around, Safety in the surrender of the liminal space, right? Because we spend our entire entirety of existence, like pulling in markers of identity and like these like touchpoints of stasis and stability, even though they're all kind of illusions and none of it's real.

And all of us are just floating in a tornado chaos all the time in actuality, right? And then we have these moments where we pop into these, into this liminal space and it becomes like, we can't hide from the fact that like, our plans are meaningless, right? And sometimes these, these liminal spaces have, are like [00:15:00] full of, you know, like somebody dies or like, you know, these like huge life events can happen that are maybe unpleasant.

But then there are also these moments like a child is born or a book is born, or you move across country that are like full of pope and possibility, but they're, they're just as full of grief. And I think a certain kind of, I don't know. Like there's something, uh, what's the word? There's like a density to it.

There's like real grief of like, okay, something was lost. And also, I don't know what the fuck, like, I, I am unmoored again. And also, and I think that, that I, I do think that that unmoored feeling, part of its discomfort is that some part of us is like, and this is the always case.

Eva: Yes.

Kyley: you know what I mean?

Meg: Like this is the whole, my whole reality right now, it's always a piece of it, but when I'm busy with the other things or I

Kyley: I can like be distracted from the fact that Yes,

Meg: I don't have to hold it all the time. I can kind of set it on a shelf and be like, yeah, yeah. I know you're there, but like, I'm gonna do [00:16:00] this right now.

Kyley: You Right, right, right. Exactly. Exactly. Yeah. Yeah. So I, I think like everyone, if you, if I think everyone has a hard it, it's inherently a hard place to be.

Eva: Yeah. Yeah. I mean, yeah. Um, I mean, I think that's nice to hear because I think I have this illusion that some people are really like playful and like, oh, they're really good in this space. But yeah, maybe this is just the human con, like, you know, the human response. But I was

Kyley: I interrupt you? Sorry. Because if I were to pick someone who I think is good in this space, it's you. Like, just to point, just to point to how much, like, I think what you're doing, it's like the time we were talking on the phone and I was like, I think this is love, right? Like, like this is, this is the, um, like, like

Eva: Yeah. It's being with the messiness, it's like, it's gonna be fucking messy and it's been messy and then, but like, can I, you know, be with that instead of trying to make it something else. Yeah. So Thank you Kylie. [00:17:00] That's like, so kind. Um, . That means a lot to me. But I was talking to my teacher Tom, and he was like,

He said something that I thought was hilarious cuz he was like, I've never arrived at anywhere but the beginning. And he was talking about, because that's, and I was like, wait, what? Like he says these things, he'll just drop these things that like blow my mind. And I'm like, oh Mike. And then I got all philosophical about it, but I was like, it's because it's true.

Like every time you're done with something, you're just starting something new. It's like you finish this book and so you're, you're like, there's no place to get to cuz you're only, anytime you finish something, you're just at the beginning again. So you're just like, you're like, oh, here I am again. I'm at the beginning.

I'm at the beginning. I'm like, oh, that was actually really liberating for me cuz I have this illusion that like some, that I'm getting somewhere or that like that, that this is like done. But you're not done. You just start again, again and again and again and your whole life is just a series of beginnings and that was just, I dunno, it was hilarious to me.

Cause I was like, that is I track my life. If that's just been true, I've never gotten [00:18:00] anywhere but. Here, , which always feels like the beginning of something else.

Meg: Yeah, and I mean, I think it always is, it's a matter of what that beginning is and like starting that generative process and like planting a bunch of seeds and kind of figuring out what grows and what, you know, your energy wants to go towards and where you feel like supported and like. Yeah, and I always think about too, like, especially when I'm in a place that's so liminal and so formless and like uncertain, um, of how many other cycles have been going simultaneously and that I'm not in the beginning of every single cycle, you know, there are other things that have been growing that have been established or that might be in a fallow period.

Still exists, you know, it's like, it's, everything doesn't have to be at the zero place . You know, like some things are, are farther along or are wrapping up. But yeah, when it, when it feels like one of the biggest cycles you're in, it's that in between, not quite started yet place. It can feel really destabilizing I think, cuz you're like, okay, this was the, this felt like a foundation cycle.[00:19:00]

Um, and now I have to make a new one.

Eva: Yeah. Yeah.

Kyley: And I also feel like more we are willing to let things like, well, you know, some, one of, you know, someone wrote this really great book about featuring the Fool, right? In the title.

Meg: Yeah.

Kyley: And like, I think that the more, when we're in these liminal spaces, don't you love how we just have to like give ourselves our own fucking medicine all the time?

We're like, oh, I'm learning the same lesson

Meg: I know. I'm like, my book is about transformation. It's so loud right now. I'm like, I can't even look at it. I'm like, I turned all the covers upside down. I'm like, please don't. Please just leave me alone. Like I just

Eva: That is hilarious.

Kyley: Sometimes I'll, sometimes I'll just send Liz, um, My business partner of Voice note and just be like, why the fuck did we pick shadow work and walking into the fire as our medicine? That was a fun game. Like, what? Why didn't we pick like Daisy in a field? What the hell is wrong with that?

Meg: because we like doing the hard stuff, but then we have to do the [00:20:00] hard stuff.

Eva: Yeah.

Kyley: Actually, I had a conversation with, um, with my friend, um, Liz Dubois, who different Liz, but who was an early guest on our show earlier today, and our specific conversation was actually about the hard stuff and about like our, like love and dreaming of it, but she was basically challenging me to unhook struggle from hard

Eva: Mm mm-hmm.

Kyley: right.

for listeners. Meg just made a face of like, she made the exploding head emoji face

Meg: can we just pause for like five minutes? Watch your process.

Kyley: Literally, literally. She was like, how attached are you to how much, what did that, what was the question? She was basically, How much of your identity is wrapped up in your ability to do hard things?

Eva: Mm-hmm.

Kyley: I was like, okay, well I hate you forever and I'm hanging up now . That's my answer,

Meg: Friendship over

Kyley: But I love this

Meg: That's a great question though. Yeah.

Kyley: like, cuz the, for the, those of us who like, [00:21:00] you know, even uses the phrase like, type be fun, who like, liked the challenge, can we give ourselves permission to like, do the challenge without bringing along all the ways in which it comes with like struggle and suffering?

Eva: Mm-hmm. . Well, I think so going back to what she asked you, did you, I heard you say, can you detach struggle from being hard? Is that what you said?

Kyley: Well, like the idea, I'm gonna kind of the, yeah. I forget exactly what she worded it, but it was basically like, you like challenges but you're making a condition of it being challenging, that it's like unpleasant and full of

Eva: Right, right. Yeah.

Kyley: can you give yourself permission? actually have a lot of fun in the fact that you're pursuing something really challenging.

Eva: Uhhuh . Yeah. Yeah, I

Meg: Like finding joy in that challenging condition versus like making these two things inextricably linked or something

Kyley: yeah, yeah. And this question was asked of me like three hours ago, so I have no answers.

Eva: [00:22:00] Well, I mean I, so, okay, so something that when I got Covid earlier, a couple, like a couple months ago, and this happens all the time, I don't know if you have this experience when you get sick and you realize like, oh my God, how much health is like amazing, and how like you're so sick and you don't realize that actually when you're not sick, that's actually just already, life is already great when you're just not sick.

And I just had this like, Covid induced profound like realization where I was like, oh, when, when there's no huge problem in my life, like there's not a death or like a tragedy or, or a sickness. And everyone's like, okay, so like, basically like a general normal day. I'm like, that is a blessing. Like that in itself is, is a gift.

But I have all these like, little problems, like I'm trying to figure out my finances or I'm trying to like, whatever, have a dispute with this person. Like these little everyday things, I'm like, those aren't problems. I'm here because my soul is like, oh, that's fun for me. Like my soul's like, I actually wants to figure things out because the figuring [00:23:00] out, like you're saying Kelly, it's a challenge.

It's like it's, it's stimulating, it's engaging and I'm like, oh, I realize like when I'm not sick and I'm just like living my life, I actually kind of, yeah, like those things. Not in a, I'm a glutton for pain kind of way. It's like these things, it's exciting for me to figure out a problem. basically, and I mean, I'll, I'm speaking for myself, but I'm sure a lot of people in business for themselves can relate.

Your business is a problem. It's a, it is like, is a thing that you're trying, like a puzzle that you're trying to work out. Right. And it can be a huge fucking pain in the ass or it can be a game that's kind of exciting.

Kyley: Um,

Meg: Yeah. Well, cuz we need friction to move forward, right? If we don't have, if we, it's just slippery. If there's no like tension, if there's nothing we can push against, we can't go anywhere. We just stay stagnant. But we need that friction to create heat and to create movement and to create momentum so we can actually get somewhere, even if it's not where we thought we were going, like friction does that for us.

You know? It's those [00:24:00] pivot points that like really make things happen.

Eva: yeah,

Kyley: Yes. And how do we play with, how do we engage with that friction without, immediately on some level, like reading it as a sign of something being wrong.

Eva: yeah, yeah. Like we're in danger

Kyley: working through with my six year old, right? It's like he's, he knows this thing now where he's like, that show is stupid. Or like, that thing is bad.

And it will, it'll be because like, he didn't like it. Do you know what I mean? And I'm like, Like, no, no, you didn't like that. You get to not like things, but then you're making, he like makes it a problem. Right. In the big, because his discomfort with like, the way the show made him feel, like, it's like, oh, well I can't sit in Pisces Moon Baby.

I can't sit with . My discomfort of how that show may feel. So the show is just bad and it's, I'm not giving great examples, but I can just watch how like

Meg: No, I'm just like, so the entire Republican [00:25:00] party, like, so anytime anyone sees anything they don't understand or like, and they're like, let's make laws about

Eva: Oh my God. That's so, that is on

Meg: but isn't that it? Right? Like, I've gotta, I've gotta legislate this, I've gotta destroy it simply because it's not for me, or I don't understand it, or like, it doesn't

Kyley: It makes me uncomfortable and therefore I need to make

Meg: Therefore, it must be bad not to group your child in with the conservative party. I'm so sorry. You know, I love your

Eva: No, but I mean, I, I, I think it makes sense. Like a lot of the Republican party is very childish and, uh, you know, ha, maybe Yeah.

Meg: also it's that, it's that a hundred percent, like this isn't for me and I don't understand it, so it must not just be bad. It must be evil. And we have to make it against a law. Like we have to like fully disengage with it and like exercise it from society because it, because simply because I don't understand

Kyley: And because I can't sit with, I can't handle the discomfort that it makes me feel.

Meg: Yeah. And I can't find any value in the discomfort, or I can't find any, what is it Elizabeth Gilbert says, like strange jewels. Like, like the little things that you're [00:26:00] like, I don't know what this is, but I like it, or I wanna investigate it, or I wanna understand it, or I wanna make magic out of it. Like,

Yeah. Oh, and unwillingness to do that is, yeah, I think is a specific kind of thing. And I mean it's something to unpack and like play with and explore for sure. And how lucky that he gets to learn that lesson So early

Kyley: I mean, I don't know. Cause cuz sometimes I'm really compassionate. Sometimes I'm like, oh my God, can you really stop complaining? Like, it's, it's not, it's not a problem actually. Just stop

Meg: like the show is fine, we just don't have to watch it.

Eva: Yeah,

Kyley: yeah, yeah. Or I'll do this thing where I'm like, that's judgment Desi. That's because part of it is he doesn't understand. So I'm like, sometimes I'm very compassionately like, so like your feeling is very valid, but then you're adding in this layer of judgment. And then other times I'm like, that's judgment des.

And I'm just, me being really judgmental of his judgment. It's a mind fuck, it's a total mind fuck And then to make matters worse, just in this little like side gent about, uh, side John, about Desi, he has started doing this really cute thing where if he thinks I'm stressed out, he strokes the back of my [00:27:00] neck.

He did it once during dinner and was like, does that make you feel better? And I was like, I didn't know I needed that, but that's very sweet.

Eva: Oh, and also very intuitive how

Meg: Yeah, like I wanna soothe You like

Kyley: So now if I snap at him for being a judgmental little twrp of a six year old stretch,

Meg: Oh my God.

Eva: Oh, what a cutie

Kyley: Which is extra funny because I really need a haircut, so I kind of have a mullet. So there's like so many layers going on

Eva: Oh my God. But you know what's interesting is that like to bring these two conversations together, this idea of the liminal space and not making things bad, I think. , what kind of, what I was trying to speak to earlier, and I think, you know, I'm always trying to figure it out, is like, that's what I've found is that I'm un, I'm in the liminal space, so it's like unknown.

I'm untethered a little bit and then I [00:28:00] get fear comes in and my fear tells me that this is bad. Like this is the problem I have to solve. And like it's like, like I'm not safe or something. And so reframing this is as like this is a sacred space. And luckily I've had experience enough to show me like, wait, this is actually a really transformational, beautiful time.

I can go, wait, this isn't a bad thing, it's unknown and it's uncomfortable, but it's not bad.

Meg: Yeah. I was just thinking like, is it uncomfortable or is it unknown? Like, and it could be both, but like, does it have to be both? Like, could it be one or the other? Like, yeah. Sorry, not to cut you

Eva: No. And then I mean, to end it, just say that. Then when I get, when I like chill out a little bit or I'm not like in a fight or flight stage, I can like surf the wave and then I can enjoy a little bit more. And I think from that space it's like, well, I don't know, I think magical things kinda happen cause I'm like more open, you know?

And then things kind of, I don't know, align in unexpected ways.

Meg: Yeah. No, it's like fighting against a current versus just like letting yourself be carried off to wherever you're gonna end up and like seeing what you find when you get there.

Eva: Yeah. Yeah. [00:29:00] So tell us more about your liminal space. I mean, it sounds, essentially you're like, you're like, this is what I heard you say is like, I think Kylie and I had this joke, like we, we've both been having existential crisises since we came out of the womb . So like, so I feel like, you know, this is existential ness going on and I'm curious what parts are like you contending.

Meg: Yeah. I mean, the personal parts are very personal, so I'll keep those out of it. But like in terms of like professionally, it's very strange to have finished a giant project like this and to have it. , you know, uh, like I, I know I've talked about this with other writers and with my partner whose memoir came out like six months ago and she's been on here as well.

But like, you know, there's something so strange about like crafting this thing and being like, I think I know what this thing is. But then you just sorta let it go out into the world and it takes on a life of its own and it, and people build their own relationship with the object and. Yeah, I mean, a lot of people [00:30:00] call it like having a baby, you know, like your book baby.

And it's more like a teenager or something because it goes off and has its own personality. You know, you think you know what you made, you think you know what you have. And then it goes out into the world and builds its own relationships and has its own life. And it's, it's a thing that came from me, but it's not really mine anymore.

You know, like, like people are gonna build their own relationship with the book. People are gonna DM me the errors that they find in the book. Thank you so much. Please don't DM me. I know. Um, but like, bless. Thank you. I promise I can't fix it. It's just gonna make me cry. Um, but like, you know, it's like, it, it's just, it's its own entity now.

You know, it's its own thing. And I'm just kinda watching people engage with it, with like awe and terror and it's wonderful and totally bizarre. And, and I've kind of just been watching this thing go off into the horizon and now I'm standing here without it and I'm like, oh. Uh, I should give notes on

Like, it's not coming back. Like, you know, like it's not a boomerang. Like it's not coming back. Like, I gotta, [00:31:00] I guess I should do something else. Um, and so, yeah, I have like some book ideas. I have an anthology idea. I have some classes I wanna write, like I have some collaborations I wanna do. But yeah, it's very like, who do I wanna be now?

Like now I'm an author, you know, I've been working towards being an author and now I am an author. And so like, okay,

Kyley: and I, I think that to like the thing about the, the birth metaphor, like Gina, Gina Caddick, Meg's partner, previous guest, um,

Meg: Fire. It's very good.

Kyley: yes. um, uh, basically by all of your friends finding the fool and heretic, that's all, they're the

Meg: Yes, they're a little set. They look really cute

Kyley: They do look very cute together. Um, they're like, even in like the, like they're even in your colors in this really great

Meg: And Gina is this taller. It's very cute.

Kyley: Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Um, but like Gina would always kind of push back against the, like the, the, the, the, the [00:32:00] book baby metaphor. Especially talking to, you know me cuz I, I have a kid, but I actually think it's really apt in a lot of ways. In particular after your kid is born, like the person you were before has died.

Right? Like they know you are now, you are now new and you have to figure out who the fuck you are. It's confusing cuz you have to, at the same time you have to figure out how to, like maybe nurse a baby

Meg: person. Yeah.

Kyley: Right.

Meg: Yeah.

Kyley: But, um, but I think what I hear about this moment that feels both exciting and terrifying is like a kind of death of you has occurred.

Right? And the other example that's coming to my mind, which is hilarious and like the most heteronormative example of all time, um, uh, who is, um, when I was planning my wedding, I had left grad school and then very quickly got engaged and dealt with my, I'm not gonna get a, become a professor angst by just like getting really into planning a wedding

Meg: Yeah. . That's real

Kyley: And then our wedding was over and I [00:33:00] was like, what the fuck do I do now? Right? Because I had punted like this, like life. I had punted that the like morning of becoming a professor and then also had distracted myself with a, for a year by like planning this very expensive, very fun party. And then was like, Mother, the fuck, what do I do with my time?

What do I do with my creative energy? Who am I? And it was like,

Eva: am I? That's,

Kyley: it was a little

Meg: Because you're like, I've been, uh, I've been engaged or I've been a fiance or I've been writing this book book. Or I've been planning the marketing for this book or whatever. Yeah. Or planning a move or like, you know, like whatever the thing that you've been doing becomes your identity sometimes. And then when that thing is completed, you're like, wait, who was I before?

Am I'm not that person anymore? Who am I now?

Kyley: yeah. And

Meg: do I identify myself after that? Yeah,

Kyley: Yeah, yeah. Yeah. I feel very jazzed about this. Like the fertile, creative territory of this space for you.

Meg: Yeah. I'm kind of waiting to get energy. I still feel so like depleted, which is [00:34:00] wild cuz the book has been done for an extremely long time. , you know, and there's so many months of just waiting for it to show up in the world, but,

Eva: exhausting too. Waiting is

Meg: waiting is tiring. Yeah.

Eva: of energetic stuff going on. Like, I don't, I don't care how long ago the book came out, they're also like, contending with like Yeah. The, just all the different pieces of like Yeah. A big release like that. Um, but I'm curious if writing this book informs you in any way about, I think, what were you saying earlier?

Like, uh, yeah, I, I guess, I guess what you wanna do next.

Meg: Yeah, it's interesting cuz I've been thinking about like, you know, people have asked me like what I've learned from writing the book or like, what, what, like a big discovery that happened during the book was, and, and I think for me writing the book, it, it really became clear how much I think in narrative terms and in like, cyclical terms.

Um, [00:35:00] like even just say like, you asked me how I was and I'm like, well, I'm in the nine space. You know, like just the way that my brain likes narrative. Um, which makes sense. You know, I've always loved stories. I've been reading since I was a child. Uh, like I read every single day of my life. I, I was a theater major.

Like, I, I love story, I love music. I love, I love, uh, a defined

Eva: Oh, good for you. Wait, so you read, when you say you read every single day, like you read a book,

Meg: Not like a full

Eva: not in

Meg: But yeah, I read, I read for pleasure every single day.

Eva: okay, hold on. I just wanna take a moment. Cause I think that's,

Meg: I mean, just so that, yeah, just so that no one feels bad. I'm also a idiopathic insomniac. I, if I don't take meds, I will just be awake. So like reading for pleasure, especially like reading the same books, um, as I'm, as I've taken my sleeping pills and I'm waiting to go to sleep is like part of my therapeutic going to bed ritual.

So just so that people don't, you know, feel bad about that. Like that has been part of my ritual. But I mean, when I was a kid before I knew what my [00:36:00] insomnia was and thought everybody just went and laid in bed all night awake and then got up and went to school. Um, I would just read until five in the morning and then my alarm would go up at six and I'd go to school.

So, um,

Eva: Wow. Okay. There's a,

Meg: a lot of time to read when you don't sleep, but it's not great for your anything.

Kyley: For anything else, it's a screen for your good reads count

Meg: really good for my good reads count. Yeah. I had to stop doing it cuz I was like, this is not necessary. You know what I don't need

Kyley: everybody feel bad

Meg: gamify

Kyley: You know what? I feel

Meg: don't need that.

Kyley: I feel you should just soak up all the perks you can from

Meg: I'm, there's very few perks and breeding is really, is is almost the only one

Kyley: right

Eva: know, but, so wait, I'm also, if I don't know why, I just find all is very fascinating and then we can move on. But do you also, you said you read the same books over, so you mean like you have some books that you love, that you'd like listen, that you read

Meg: I have, uh, yeah, I have a ro. It's mostly romance novels because if there's happily ever after, then you can't, you know, because I've tried to read like new books and like mysteries and thrillers, but then, then I don't wanna go [00:37:00] to sleep and I already have enough trouble running to sleep. So like I have a roster of, I don't know, like 50 romance novels that just live on my Kindle.

I like big, I like a big series with like 20 or 30 books. Like a family or like a group of friends. Um, yeah,

Eva: novel. Cause I like love a good romance novel. I don't read enough. And also I'm just, the reason I'm fascinated by this, like reading something over and over again is because I do the same thing. I think for comfort, I will go to just things that I like.

I'll watch the same movie

Meg: totally.

Eva: if I'm in a bad mood and I don't wanna be like, I don't know, too stimulated, I'll just watch Like Saving or no, what's the one that I love Forgetting? Serve Marshall or like

Meg: Oh yeah. It's great. Clueless is perfect.

Eva: Yeah, exactly.

Kyley: um,

Meg: Yeah, but that's real. There's that familiar like sinking into something, you know, like you can be fully engaged with it or you can like, kind of just like mess around on your phone or like clean or do something. But yeah, it's, it, there's a real comfort in that. Um, yeah.

Sorry, Kai.

Kyley: I can't rewatch or reread books like very, very, very infrequently. [00:38:00] I've reread like maybe three books, and two of them were, because they were assigned again in graduate school.

Meg: Do you get bored? Like, do you find it just can't hold your focus or do you just like actively not enjoy it or?

Kyley: think a lot of it is, I actually have a harder time sinking into it, cuz I kind of know what's happening. And then also, um, I think it brings up my like, like, I don't know if it's like the Aries energy or what, but there's basically this sense of like, I don't know, fucking time for this is 8 million books in the world.

I can reread one

Meg: That's

Eva: right. That I totally, I

Kyley: am gonna die with so many unread books. So like

Eva: I love this. I love the comparing of our different perspectives though, because I think that all of this checks out. Like I get, I totally get that Kylie, and also I totally get the comfort thing too, which is I think, yeah. What, here's

Kyley: I

Meg: yeah. I mean, I'll read, yeah, I mean,

Kyley: oh, sorry, go ahead,

Meg: no, no, no. Go ahead.

Kyley: Oh. Just like if I, if I'm in a, like a really kind of like, there are moments where you're like, I could use a comfort show and I will try to watch something again. [00:39:00] And I, I, I,

Eva: Oh, so you can't even watch the same movies over again or like tv. TV

Kyley: I mean, like, I, I, I can, but it's not like,

Eva: Yeah. It's not your go-to.

Kyley: not, I mean, like there are things like, I'm very excited to watch like Star Wars and Lord of the Rings with my kids.

Right. There's like certain things that I

Meg: We just re-watched the Lord of the Rings.

Kyley: I

Meg: like literally Jet like last week or

Kyley: I, I like cannot wait until Desi is old enough to watch those movies. Uh, cuz Nick does not give a shit. So Um, so there's like a few, but even that is like, cuz I wanna rewatch it with him, like all left to my own devices. I don't know if I would.

Meg: But having the experience of showing someone and experiencing their first time is a different

Kyley: That being said, I've watched in Condo 800 fucking

Meg: I mean that's

Kyley: no

Eva: but that's not, not by choice though,

Kyley: Yeah.

Meg: But also Encanto is also a perfect film. So like if you have to watch something over and over, it's a good choice.

Kyley: Exactly.

Eva: Which reminds me, I should probably watch that again cuz it was

Meg: Oh yeah. And cry like 10 times.

Eva: [00:40:00] Oh my

Kyley: My mom came to visit for this like really, really, really emotional weekend we were having over Mother's Day, and we watched the last 20 minutes of it together. Just like holding hands sobbing on the

Meg: No. Nope.

Kyley: Yep, yep. And kind of delivering a real solid,

Eva: Yeah. They're doing its job Well. I,

Meg: sometimes you need to cry and it's good to have a roster of films that, you know, will accomplish that goal. And Encanto sure will do that.

Eva: Yeah, it's true. Um, okay. Sorry. I feel like I took us down on this

Meg: No, no, no. I think there's, there's something really interesting about like, do you, you know, when you need comfort? Because, because that's the thing for me too.

It's like, I, I read new books during the day. I do research during, I read nonfiction and fiction and like, whatever, whatever I feel like reading. I'll also read during the day. Um, but the, the nighttime books, sometimes I can like cheat a little bit and read a little bit of a new book, but when I start to feel my meds kicking in, I have to switch to something that I've read before because then I won't get too into it.

Like, it really is like a quieting of the mind, like a reading version [00:41:00] of A S M R. Like, it just helps me like kind of fuzz out, you know? Um,

Eva: No, I love, I love that. Um, but I feel like I, we digress. What were we talking about before? Before?

Kyley: Well, well, I have a, I have a question. I, I have a new question for us also. I just feel very happy. I feel like all three of us sounds like we had like kind of hard days and I already feel so much better from our like, little 20 minutes into our little chat. Um, I am curious to know, um, what's the question? What, for listeners who may not have heard your previous e episode on the show, which please go and listen, especially if you're someone who's been interested in tarot, but also like a little intimidated or maybe not had great first experiences. Um, uh, what, what do you think makes your book and your take on tarot singular.

Meg: Um, big

Kyley: Maybe the, if the word singular feels loaded, if the

Meg: It does

Kyley: [00:42:00] feels loaded,

Meg: It does, but that's

Kyley: maybe. I'm basically being

Meg: I'm supposed to be confident, right? This is,

Kyley: Be a big, this is me. This is me making you, asking you to be a big deal. Um, um, yeah.

Eva: an Oprah size quest. This is prepping you for Oprah

Meg: Okay, perfect. I can't wait.

Kyley: we all, we all, we all know

Meg: Call me Oprah. Let's do this. Um, I think that for me, like really what was, what drove like every major decision and every like, pivot point or like point of friction with the publisher or like whatever, was really wanting to make space for people to have their own personal relationship with the cards.

Um, and so what that ended up rippling out into was like, how do we make space for, you know, all different kinds of people, all diffusing any deck they want coming with any level of experience, um, coming with any level of comfort. You know, I, I know there are people that are picking up the book that are like, I've never thought about tarot, but my friend told me I should read this book.

Or This is the one that I found or whatev, like however they managed to get their [00:43:00] hands on it. Um, and I just want it to feel like a welcoming practice for however you wanna use the cards. And I think that feels like a really grand statement. Like, I want this book to be for anyone. Like you can't sell a book doing that.

Like publishers will not take, you have to have an audience, like, and you have to have a very specific, like, subset of your audience to break it down. This is who this book is for. Um, and I know that this book is for those people, like, specifically for like queer folks and Bipo folks, and people that are margin, like live on the margins and like want to feel like, you know, if they've been ostracized or felt like Tara wasn't for them, I know that this book is going to go out of its way to try to be as inclusive for, for those folks as possible.

Um, but I really wanted it to feel like, and. Open door, um, for anyone that was excited to try to walk through it and to kind of offer, not not doing the work for you, because I can't, and I'm not gonna, but like, um, kind of showing you here are a bunch of different paths you can take and whichever one you want this book can [00:44:00] serve as a companion.

Not to lead you, but to walk alongside you and encourage you to find the path that makes sense to you. And if that means you divert off of one of these roads, if that means that you create entirely your own path, all of that is legit. All of that is valid. All of that is wonderful and beautiful and you, um, so it, it felt like a lofty goal, but I feel like that was really kind of the driving force, um, and inspiration behind the book.

Kyley: I mean, I, to, to reflect back, I think, um, there's a really incredible. Permissiveness in all of your writing and like in your approach to tarot, right, is like, um, this gets to be yours on your own terms is woven through everything. And I fucking love that

Meg: Thank you. I'm really glad

Kyley: becau for like a co I mean a couple of reasons.

One, like to just always love that message. But then I also think in particular there can be this way that with any divination tool, we can give the tool the power, right? So we can [00:45:00] make it right and we can make our own interpretations wrong, our own intu intuition wrong and you speak to that. But then I think even deeper than that, we can create these kind of like codependent relationship on the tools as if like, well, the tool has the answer and I'm just the dummy who like shuffled the cards and I really love that you're.

and I, and I think that sometimes people teach like, okay, let's get the basics. Let's like give you the, uh, Raider white, like intro standard definition, and then we can teach you the alternative way that you can trust yourself. And it actually makes me think of some early conversations. You know, in our house we try to explain gender as like how you identify inside.

And we also talk about body parts and we try to make them not, and I remember someone, someone early on was like, well, isn't that kind of confusing? Wouldn't it make more sense to like, explain the like normal way and then give them the ex ex like, you know, the alternative later? And I was like, no, that makes no sense.

Meg: And who's normal? Like [00:46:00] why? Like

Kyley: Right. Like, like everyone, there were these big air quotes that I gave around those words. Um, um, The, the only reason that that feels that way is because you've been given this like, well, this is the rule and this is the, like, alternative. But we don't have to have that logic. We could just have the logic of like, inclusivity from, from the get-go.

And, and there's a way that that is, um, that that kind of logic is just woven through your work in a way that I think, like I wouldn't want anyone to learn to read the tarot from anyone. But you

Meg: That means a lot. Thank you. Like truly. And yeah, I think that there's something there can be, especially like, I don't know, for those of us, like I was raised Evangelical Baptist, Calvinists, like I was raised with nothing but rules, , and the rules were not like, , this is just gonna make your mom love you. It was like, this will send you to hell if you disobey it.

So like there are some stakes at play. And so like if you're like me and you were raised in that kind of environment, having the book hinge on these are the rules and now [00:47:00] we're gonna teach you how to break them, that's not necessarily gonna be super comfortable or like super welcoming or feel very accessible for people.

You know it. And it can feel like you're immediately setting people up for failure. Like, okay, here are the rules, and you get to decide if you're gonna break them or not. Versus, okay, what if we don't talk about things in terms of rules, , and instead we just say, here's some possibilities. What feels good to you?

Play like this or try like this or see how this feels. And if it doesn't feel good, cool. If you don't have to do it, you know, like it's a tool for you and you're the one using the tool, the magic's coming from you, the tool's, just helping you clarify it and like hone that magic. And that's all it is. Like it's just paper, you know, , like you're the magic, like the, the thing just helps to clarify it, you know?

Kyley: Yes.

Eva: That's so beautiful. I, I do remember after our con, our first podcast episode, which again, everyone should go listen to, is that like I walked away with feeling like, I don't know anything about tarot and like kind of intimidated and yeah. Feeling like there was a right way to do it. And then after our conversation I was like, oh, this gets to be fun.

Like this is play, this is like [00:48:00] empowering and yeah, I don't know. That was, yeah, it was just a really eye-opening conversation for me.

Kyley: Yeah.

Meg: glad. Yeah, and thinking about like liminal spaces, like, you know what I mean? If like starting a new tool, starting a new project, starting a new like learning process with something, it can feel really intimidating if there's no guardrails or anything. But like, I think if we start with too many, it can just feel like, well then where am I supposed to go?

you know, versus like, okay, here's a couple things to try. Like here's a few options. And you can see what feels good. It, it can feel a little bit easier to kind of lean into it without feeling like you have to like fully commit and like memorize all of these rules or restrictions.

Kyley: Yes, yes. Yeah. I had a friend cuz any, any like friend or acquaintance that needs something witchy,

Meg: Yeah, you're the witch on call

Kyley: Uh, and so I have a, I have a, I have a friend who was like, actually, actually what's funny is she had just finished reading Gina's book

Meg: Oh, lovely.

Kyley: the next [00:49:00] day she was like, Hey, I like, kind of feel like getting into tarot.

Do you know anything? And I was like, funny you should mention that

Meg: Love it.

Eva: Yeah.

Kyley: So I'm just trying to like, create like a, you know, Gina Meg groupie, but,

Meg: Just the book club.

Kyley: But I, um, but I was just so, I also felt super jazzed cause I was like, oh, in the past you love to ask this question. And I've had this whole long thing about like, well go to the store and pick the card and like, get a book, but don't take it that seriously.

And instead I was like, yes, actually this book, here you go. Go order it right now.

Eva: Mm-hmm.

Kyley: Uh, and that, oh, I was jazzed about, so I'm jazzed for all of us.

Meg: Love it.

Kyley: Can I ask how your, maybe they, maybe you don't have an answer to this, but do you feel your relationship to tarot has changed through the process of writing and completing the book?

Meg: I think that, like, I feel, I just feel so much more confident than when I initially pitched it. You know, I, I bought my first deck in the middle of 2016 and um, and [00:50:00] like a few months after I bought my first Tero deck, I started therapy for the first time and like individual therapy for the first time. And so, like for me, those like kind of growth.

Patterns, trajectories, whatever are very related. I don't talk about that very much, but like it was very much like, okay, I'm doing this on my own. I've left the church, I'm like doing this thing on my own and I'm starting therapy and like these are two kind of modalities, tools that I'm using to try to get my shit together basically.

Um, so that was a mess. Yes,

Eva: I feel like that's beautiful though. I mean,

Meg: It was really helpful. And my therapist has learned so much about tarot and really likes my book and like, isn't that great? She's in the acknowledgements like, cuz it was also concurrent, you know, but, um, . But I think that, you know, when I, so I, I conceived the book in 2019, so I hadn't really been reading for all that long.

But I, the book, the book was never like, I'm an expert and I'm gonna show people how to read tarot because I know everything. It was much more like, okay, I'm still figuring this out, but [00:51:00] these things have helped me and maybe we can all kind of figure this shit out together cause everything's weird and let's just try this.

And so, you know, I came to it from that kind of place of like, I don't know, let's see. Um, and when Wiser bought the book, um, then I was like, oh God, now I have to write this. Um, I mean, I had like 60,000 words already, but I had to like, you know, edit it and put it back together and all of that. But, . But yeah, I think, I think because I wrote the book in this very, here are some different options for every card and like, here are some keywords and some starting places versus like, this is the definitive guide to taro.

Everything you ever need to know is in this book. Um, I think, I think it gave me a lot more confidence to be like, I think this is this, but what do you think? You know? And to have that be part of my journey and my style, because I love asking questions. You know, like I'm a deeply curious seeking kind of person.

I'm not someone that's ever really content [00:52:00] with, like, this is the one answer. I'm like, no, there's gotta be like 10 more layers. Let's keep going. So, you know, for me, like tarot is this lifelong discovery thing, and that's beautiful. I don't, you know, I, I don't feel stressed out by having committed to a definition of a card that's gonna like, haunt me in 10 years.

Like, I think, I think it really gave me a lot of space and courage to be able to be like, , here are some options. Tell me yours. Like what do you think? Like let's, it felt like the opening of a conversation instead of like, this is the Bible . You know, like this is the definitive thing.

Eva: Mm-hmm.

Meg: And I think that's been really good for me cuz I like space , even though like too much space, like liminal space can feel uncomfortable.

Like having space to grow and expand and like carving out an extra large space to begin with instead of feeling that they have to keep pushing against the boundaries. Like, it just feels like a completely different choice and it's felt really nice.

Kyley: Well, and it also feels like a claiming of your, your [00:53:00] gift, right? Which I think like one of your, your gift to tarot among other things, but is, is exactly this, is this like, you know, is this invitation and this conversation and this

Eva: And giving people space.

Meg: Yeah.

Kyley: people space and um, and, and I think I might have even mentioned some in the last podcast, so sorry if this is redundant, but

Meg: It was a while ago. . I haven't gone back. I didn't go back and listen to it before we

Kyley: Anyone who's like, you know, back to back Meg episodes might be like, okay, let's go. One

Meg: so much. Mag,

Kyley: but um, but I, um, you know, one of the things I teach my clients is like, there's kind of I think two models of leadership and one is the expert model, right? Like, I have a PhD in this topic, or I have 20 years of experience and so I will teach you the knowledge.

And then I think that there's this experience-based leadership that's really like wisdom, like rooted in wisdom, right? And because of, you know, racist patriarchy, we have a tendency to val and capitalism, [00:54:00] like we tend to value the, we've been taught to value the expert based leadership, but also are all actually hungry for this wisdom experience-based leadership.

And, um, and what I taught walk through my clients a lot is like giving them permission to like claim, like the thing you think is a weakness. Is your, is actually your strength and the moment of really being able to like embody that mantle just feels, I don't know, it feels really great and I'm really glad gl jazz, that the book gave you permission to like, yeah, of course.

Of course. It's an invitation. Let's go.

Meg: Yeah. Like let's ask some weird questions, like, let's see what we find. You know, like, and as opposed to like, here is the one answer, here's the one key, and if you can't figure it out, or this doesn't resonate for you, you're just like doing it wrong. You know? Like, fuck that forever. Like, I didn't do well in school for that exact reason.

Like this is much more my style.

Eva: I love that. Fuck that forever.

Meg: Fuck that forever. Like, no. I mean, when we were working on the book, [00:55:00] my, my editor Catherine is absolutely brilliant. And, um, and she, and she finally was like, looking at all of my like, tarot card descriptions. Cause I go through, you know, each card and kind of bring in the numerology and the astrology for anyone that hasn't read it.

And there's keywords and, um, and she was finally like, you ask so many questions, like every single paragraph has a question in it. Did you know that? And I was like, yeah, it's sort of my thing. Like, it's for better or worse, like, ask a lot of questions. And she's like, fuck it, we're just gonna break them into journal prompts.

And so like, when you go through like every si like the majors have a lot because I wrote specific journal prompts for, you know, this, the numerology paragraphs and the astrology paragraphs and like the keyword paragraphs and the reading paragraphs and stuff. But like, even with the minors, like every single part has a little breakout text box that's like, here's your journal prompts.

Because like, I can't help it. It's like, it's just like woven into my d n a. Like let's just ask a million questions in my Instagram. Like,

Eva: sounds like a great editor who is just like, let's make this like accessible [00:56:00] and Yeah. I'm

Meg: find out.

Eva: Yeah. Can you give us Yeah, she's, okay. So this audience, she's, she's picking up her book and she's gonna find a question

Meg: here. We were talking about nine, so let's pull out, here's the moon. Perfect. So there's a full Moon and Aries. So yeah, so like for the moon, like, you know, we've got like Pisces nines keywords. Like I, I open each section with like some experiential paragraphs cuz it's, for me, like sensory components are like a really powerful aspect in like, embodying the energy of the card and like being able to connect with the card in a way that feels grounded in experience versus like

Eva: should I try and pull up this card to look at it? Will

Meg: Sure. Yeah. Find the moon. Um, it's, it's major arch kind of archetype number 18. But it, when you do in numerology, you combine digits. So one plus eight puts it in the nine category, which puts it in the same constellation as the hermit, which, um, is in the first section.

Eva: wait. So sorry. You're losing, you're going too fast.

Meg: sorry, I'm so.

Eva: what do I Google?

Meg: Oh, Google. Google the Moon.


Eva: Okay, there we

Meg: Sorry, I thought you had a deck [00:57:00] in your hand so I answered in a different way. My apologies.

Eva: for listeners, if you wanna goo, if you wanna Google along you can.

Meg: Yeah. Google the moon or grab your tarot deck. Um, But yeah. So then, and then the, you know, for each card, there's a few paragraphs talking about, um, kind of how the moon or how each card fits into the bigger narrative of the major arana or of the minor suit that it's in.

Um, and so for the moon, you know, I'd start with the astrological correspondence. The moon is associated with Pisces. You know, we just moved out of PI season and that, um, and that card is anchored by, um, by the moon. Um, and then there's journal prompts. And then we move to, I'm gonna read the Numerological correspondence, which as I said, the moon is, uh, major Archana archetype number 18.

Um, and in numerology we always want it to be a single digit. So we add one plus eight for 18, and we get it distilled down to nine. Um, and so if you. Think about if you're familiar with the tarot, there's gonna be cards in the majors and then cards in the minors that all have that number. So anytime you're working with, you know, you pull [00:58:00] like the nine of one s or something, especially if you're struggling, you can look back at the nine major arcana archetypes of the hermit and the moon and think about how that element might relate to that energy.

And it can kind of give you a little mental cheat sheet to kind of think about, okay, what might this be communicating to me? Um, so yeah. So like for the moon, you know, the journal prompts, I'm just gonna read it. The number nine is a complex one, balancing internal exploration with external generosity. How do these archetypes empower us to serve?

What do we learn about ourselves from engaging with both the hermit and the moon? How have you experienced each of these archetypes in your own life? And which one were you the most comfortable with? So like, I try to like really tie it back, not just to tarot, but also giving opportunities to really connect archetypes to personal experience and relationships and ideas and, um, emotions.

Because for me that is how you build a personal relationship with the cards. Um, you know, there's keywords if you wanna memorize those, if, you know, for some people that's a really easy place to start. But [00:59:00] memorizing has never been my jam . Like, I wasn't good at memorizing bible verses, and I'm sure not good at memorizing And that's, I think that's part of why I really struggled at first, you know, because I, I couldn't just memorize them all. And then even when I did, I'd pull a card and be like, okay, the moon is dreams. What do I do with that? You know, like there wasn't anything connecting me to that idea. And so I could remember the words, but I, I didn't know what to do with it.

You know? I didn't know, I didn't understand what it was trying to communicate to me. Um, and so I think it takes a lot longer obviously to like, answer prompts like that, or, or think about what personal connection you might have to the moon or what experiences you might have with the Moon card. Um, but ultimately I think it, it creates a much richer foundation to then keep holding up

Kyley: Well, because that's how your intuition works, right? Is like, like you

Meg: Doesn't just come outta nowhere. Like

Kyley: like, you know, as someone who like, you know, someone the other day was like, are you psychic? And I was like, but look. Yes, actually, technically speaking, right?

Meg: yeah.

Kyley: like when images or messages or [01:00:00] metaphors show up for me, it's based on like my reference system, right?

And then I have to do the work of like filtering it for my own, like biases or whatever, right? But it's like, I'm not getting, I'm not gonna see your reference system. I'm gonna see my own and then I. Process it. So understanding what the moon means to you is gonna be way more fucking useful than, uh, you're actually kind of unlocking something for me once again, like you did last time about the tarot, because there are some cards, I think the star card and the moon in particular that I've always just felt this like weird disconnect from a hermit is another one.

There's just some of these that I have like a, like a big, like wall and uh, I think it's exactly this. It's, I haven't, like what does the moon mean to me? I, I don't know. I'm maybe getting on sit with this question. T B D.

Meg: P b d. Well, and yeah, I think some of the cards, especially, especially the ones that are later in the cycle, um, because the, the early, the early numbers in the cycle, the early cards in the cycle, [01:01:00] um, not that they're easier, simpler, but like, uh, if they're often easier to connect with, you know, like initiatory energy, like the magician is like brainstorming and confidence and courage and thinking about everything you want to do, and imagining all the different ways you can do it.

Like, most of us know what that feels like. You know, even if we don't do it on a daily basis, most of us understand that impulse of like, okay, dream big. What can we do? Like I can do anything. I have the resources I need, what do I want to do? Versus the hermit, which is like, Deep personal interrogation and introspection and philosophy and the recognition that we're nearing the end of something and thinking about what is emerging from that experience and what's gonna be left behind.

Like, it's much more vague. And even if we've all experienced it, it might take a little longer to figure out what that energy actually feels like in your body or what it means for you. Or like tapping back to times in your life when you felt that energy and you, and you had that experience. Um, but in doing that, in, in taking the time to do that work, then when those cards come up, you're [01:02:00] like, oh, damn.

Okay. Okay.

Kyley: You're also making me think about how there are also certain, like that en like that, that hermit energy as you just described, it, is not always very comfortable. Like similarly, like the tower card is one that at this point I'm like, oh yeah. Hey, for we're ps. We're ps.

Meg: And it's a tower year. We're in a seven year, so it's chariot and tower. It's a good times.

Kyley: Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. We, we've been ped for a while, but like I, or, but um, like I remember the Devil card used to show up when I was learning tarot.

The devil card would show up and I would feel like really freaked out and I would have a hard time interpreting it because I was like, I don't know, I don't like this card. This seems like, it seems like it's bad and, or I'm bad. Right? And eventually for me, the devil is always like, yeah, you're being in control.

Freak, stop being in

Meg: like, calm down . Yeah.

Kyley: for me, . Um, but, um, but I'm just thinking about how important doing this investigation that you invite us into is because [01:03:00] there are some cards that, that we are actually afraid of the energy, right? And some of them might be obvious, like we're afraid of the tarot for tower, for obvious reasons.

Um, but you can just come hang out with me in Magic Circle and we'll fix that for you. No problem.

Meg: great. Yeah.

Kyley: But,

Meg: it's chill. It's,

Kyley: but then, um, , but then there's others that I think are maybe uncomfortable in subtler ways and that you might not realize that that's where the disconnect is coming from. Unless you walk through Meg's journal prompts and read her

Meg: Yeah. Well, and I think there are cards too that like most people can identify with as I, I really don't buy the like, positive and negative associations, but there's some things like the tower that are like free fall and like the destruction of something that once felt really solid and stuff that, like anyone can look at that and agree, yeah, that's probably pretty destabilizing.

That could feel pretty chaotic. That could even feel dangerous or like really scary. Um, or really activating or really traumatic. Like, and I think, you know, there are certain cards that are kind of, even if you don't know anything about tarot that like live [01:04:00] in that, you know, we've all seen a movie with a terror reader who pulls a tower or pulls death and it's like, oh my god.

You know? And like, okay, sure, whatever. But like, um, please call me if you're making a movie. I would love to be your terror song. Like,

Eva: my God,

Meg: um, let me help.

Kyley: in the luminal space, that's what I'm

Meg: that's what I'm putting, putting out into the universe. Um, call me . You can DM me, but, um, But, um, but yeah, I think there are other cards that like, you know, especially if it's a card that like some people love that card or like the, the, the image of the card on the deck that you have like, looks like positive and happy and you're like, why am I uncomfortable?

I don't. Like, like, it's like you don't feel like you have permission to have it be uncomfortable or like it's activating. Like there was a time in my life when I was really, really lonely and I was like losing some friends. I was going through some stuff and I was having trouble connecting with people.

And I kept pulling the three of cups, which is typically a card of like rich community and like chosen family and feeling really interconnected with people and being able to be your true self. And I felt like the [01:05:00] cards were mocking me because I was so lonely and I felt so scared and disconnected and like no one could see me or wanted to be around me.

And it was terrible. And I'm like, this is this card that's like universally beloved and this card makes me wanna cry every time it comes up, you know? And that's also, you know, things like experiences like that or what also made me wanna look beyond just those like standard straight up, right, or weight experiences.

I'm like, why is this uncomfortable for

Eva: so what was that? What was your, what interpretation did you come to in that situation? As someone

Meg: Oh, I didn't have, I didn't have one at first. I just felt bad . But

Eva: you interpret it now?

Meg: Yeah, now I think about it like, so, so, you know, the, the suit of, of cups is associated with the element of water, which is tied to the heart and it's, it's emotions, it's relationships, um, it's the connections we have, it's vulnerabilities and sensitivities and anything that feels really tender and really internal and really personal.

You know, if you think about water, being able to flow when it's at ease, but also like being really heavy and [01:06:00] dense. Diving deep into something and not necessarily being able to see the bottom or find yourself being swept in currents. You know, the, there's water holds a lot. Um, and it can be really clean and clear and transparent, or it can be really murky or really intense.

Like water can be anything cuz emotions can be literally anything. Um, and the three is, is a, is a digit that's really tied to expression and communication. Um, it's, it's associated with the empress. That's, that's major Archana archetype number three. And the empress is tied to like Venus. And it's this really expressive, connective, generous, abundant.

Like, I want to share something with you. I wanna bring something that feels personal out into the world in a tangible way where other people can connect with it. But there's also this like, rawness to it. You know, this isn't like a refined, perfect creation. It's like the very first, uh, impulsive expression of it.

And it's, it's not finished, you know? And so, um, for me, like the three of cups can mean all [01:07:00] kinds of things, but it can, it can very much mean this like messy desire for connection that maybe isn't actually making the connection that we think it is. Or like, you know, this reaching out for something and not having it come back or be understood because it's not finished.

Um, you know, like that messy expression of emotion that like, people don't get or feels like too much or whatever. I'm depressed. My, my emotions can be really messy, you know, like, um, and so like, it, it eventually became this card of like, okay, like you are vulnerably, vulnerably putting something tender out into the world and.

it might have a place to land or it might not. And like that really depends on where, who you're sharing that with and like what kind of place they are in to receive it. So that even if your words aren't perfect or that like heart expression is not perfectly clear and refined, the people that get it are still gonna get it.

And like who are you sharing that with? And like why are you sharing that? What [01:08:00] impulse is that? And I mean I could go on and on, but like there's so much more to it than just like, this is your chosen family, these are your people.

Eva: Yeah. Wow. That's amazing.

Meg: to go along on the three of cops. Well, like

Kyley: so much. And I love that description of the Empress energy also. Really? My t-shirt is my, em is my, I

Meg: I was trying to figure out what I was like, it looks like a terra

Kyley: yeah, it's the Empress.

Eva: Did you wear that like in celebration

Kyley: is like my bench shirt. I just

Meg: love it. It looks really soft. Like it looks very comfortable.

Kyley: Um, it has, it has a, I cut the, cause I wanna be cool. I cut the neck off of all of my t-shirts, but this one I cut kind of wide,

Meg: No, it looks great. You've got the gold. It's perfect. I can't wear crewneck. Like, I literally can't, they make me feel like I'm being choked. I cut every, I only buy things that have like a big collar, or I cut the collar outta

Kyley: like, you know, I don't wanna like look too buttoned up, like I'm a cool kid,

Eva: Yeah.

Meg: kid. You're cool. Mom.

Eva: yeah.

Kyley: exactly. I'm a cool mom and wears cutoff ta tarot t-shirts to dunk donut[01:09:00]

Meg: Mm-hmm.

Kyley: you just really loved the, like, description of the, the, like the rawness, right? The like the rawness of the creation. I've never, I've heard, ever heard that description where that like actually landed very deep in my heart because I think, um, I often describe myself as like a little bit of a mad scientist.

And I feel like I really, I really lo at this point in my life, I really love my ability to be like new idea, a new idea, a new idea. And in order to be in that, you have to like, you have to let messy, raw, imperfect things out in the world. Um, and um, and that is sometimes attention for me because I also like have this perfect idea as vision of it.

And, um, you know, you know, at this point in my life, that's not how they come out.

Eva: Oh yeah. But that's like what I love most. Sorry, I just have to like

Kyley: no good

Eva: a, a plug for Kylie. Everybody

Meg: Yeah. True. I was gonna say, this is a gift

Eva: Yeah, I know. I love this [01:10:00] about you and it helps with our creations, and I'm not sure in all your creations, but like I get so into perfectionism, which is the number one, like cock block of dreams and like getting shit done.

And so, uh, yeah, you're just like, you know, like I've said to you before, like you throw something, you throw shit against the wall and see if it sticks. And I, and I love that and I think I like learned that from you. So anyway, just, just a

Kyley: Yeah. No, I, it, it is something that I truly, I truly relish. I just, um, the, the, uh, and thank you for saying that. I really appreciate that I received that. I think, um, the idea of the raw, the rawness of like, there's a, there's a power in something's raw form, right? Like it's beautiful when you get a crystal that's been like all like refined and is shiny and is a cool shape.

And also it's really cool when you get the rock that just like, this is just like a hunk of earth . You know what I

Meg: pulled this out. It's right here in your hand,

Kyley: And, and there's a way that, that just gifted me like, um, Oh yeah, I do like [01:11:00] raw earth. Here you go. And, and someone, and someone else does refined and you know, maybe you get yourself a partner who helps you with the refining, not a

Meg: was gonna say like in, you know, in the per, like, there's a reason that the emperor, again, I don't really do like divine feminine, divine masculine. These two are in a relationship, whatever, but like, there's a reason that the

Kyley: have heard my rant about that

Meg: I know, and I'm like, this is a safe space for that. Like, but like, yeah, I think like there's a reason that the empress in the emperor can be their own little mini cycle, because the emperor is this raw expression, this outpouring, this like, generous, abundant, here's a bunch of beautiful raw material that's here, it's out in the world.

And the emperor goes, cool, how do we, what are we gonna build out of this? And like, how can we structure this to like, protect it so that it can keep growing? You know, if the empress is, is the wildflowers, then the emperors like the greenhouse, you know, or the garden, like, it's like protecting it and like empowering it to keep growing in its natural expression, but like safeguarded and like given all the, the resources and you know, [01:12:00] fertilizer and sunlight and water that it needs to actually thrive.

Eva: Oh, that's so

Kyley: You're like planting something deep in my heart.

Meg: Yay. Become a tarot Convert. This is my ministry,

Eva: Yeah. I mean you, it does seem like ministry. You just have such a beautiful way with words. Like it's so obvious that you have such a relationship with this. It's like, it's like poetry the way that you talk about this

Meg: Oh, thank you. That means a lot. Yeah. But it, it just, like, again, when I talk about narratives, like I can't talk about one card on its own. Like for me it's like, it's all so interconnected cuz it is just like this story and it's like this cast of characters, this like series of moments in a journey. And you can't, you can't just rip one out and look at it completely out of context.

Or you can, but like for me, like thinking about what came before and. What is in, what is living in this moment, and then what is it building to like, like when this reaches its pinnacle or its fullness, what is it then transitioning into, or what is it moving into next? Like those are really integral parts of that [01:13:00] story for me.

So like, you know, the empress is coming from the magician and the priestess of like these, you know, this, this brainstorming all of these ideas. And the priestess is kind of like whittling it down and being like, okay, which one of these ideas feels like the most authentic, truthful, powerful expression of what I really wanna do?

And then the emperor is like, got it. I can do that. And gives everything that they have in that form. And then the emperor comes in and is like, cool, like, let's clean this up. Let's polish it. Let's make it so that it can shine and keep growing the way that it was meant to. And like it's all just like this continuous thing.

Kyley: I want, like, Tara, the bedtime story from you. It's just,

Meg: Maybe that that's the next project, . Maybe I could just work on

Kyley: a little ironic from the person who can't sleep, but

Eva: seriously. Could you like do a YouTube or something? Because like, um, yeah. I feel like a lot of people listen to these things like before they go to bed, like you were saying. It's like, yeah, taro. Well, it's not as m r, but anyway. Yeah. People can get

Meg: like that. , I'll think about it. I like that [01:14:00] Yeah. Cuz it is, I mean, it really is just a story, you know, like, I think it being called the Fool's journey is very appropriate. You know, like it's, it's this, it's this figure of possibility and desire and curiosity going out into the world and like transforming over and over and over by their experiences and the things that they learn and try and fail at and discover.

Like it's, it's a story. Um, and so like being able to pull a card and be like, where am I in my story right now? Like, what's, what am I interacting with? What am I living in? What am I moving towards? Like, it can be a really therapeutic practice. Um, and that's not about what keywords it is, but just like, help me anchor in this, in this moment.

Kyley: Yeah. And I also hear you speaking to like, and help me validate to myself my own experience.

Meg: Yeah. Yeah. I, I really resist the positive and negative things, but I get asked all the time about like the scary cards and the negative cards and the bad cards, and like, all that shit because, you know, we're, we're humans and we like to [01:15:00] categorize things and you know, we're really invested in binaries, but, um, like, but um, we sure are.

Um, but yeah, I think, I think there is something just intensely validating about when you're just having the shittiest time and you're just like, I'm really struggling. And having the cards not mock you about it, but like, reflect that back to you, you know, to go back to my, like three of cups, I'm like, like, at the time it felt like mockery cuz I didn't really understand what they were trying to communicate, but then it felt like, yeah, who are you sharing your water with?

Like, what cups are you pouring your cup into? And like, are those cups even open to receiving what you're trying to offer? Like, , like, what are you doing, babe? You know, and like that's really validating like,

Kyley: I also love that story because that story also feels like you birthing yourself as the particular kind of terror reader that you

Meg: I, yeah. I mean, I think it, it was

Kyley: been like a bunch of like, like, uh, what's, what's the, I don't remember, like the eight of cops. Is that the one where he's like sad and walking

Meg: yeah. The [01:16:00] eight of Cups is often read as like, leave something toxic behind, like start a new journey

Kyley: Right. You would've been like, oh, yeah, okay, this tracks, but somehow, like right in getting this like seemingly dissonant card, you also like birthed like, right. So the card, the card was both reflecting something deeper and also like setting you on this journey that was like, we're not mocking you, but we're, we're to go back to the beginning, like, we're challenging in the way that you actually want.

Meg: yes. Like we're, we're gonna create some friction that will help you figure out actually what you needed to learn. And it might take you a while and it super did , but like, uh, this was not, I was not a savan who picked up the cards. It was like, perfect, I got this. Um, but like, yeah, I think, I think that it, it really was setting me up to, to be like, okay, we're gonna push you like you have to, you're gonna have to work for this, but also this is going to transform you like

Kyley: Mm. Okay. I could actually have this conversation all night long cuz you're two of my actual favorite humans and I [01:17:00] am mindful of time and so I'm wondering if we should do a round of joy.

Meg: round of joy. I love that y'all do this. Yes.

Kyley: Yeah. Or you wanna go first? Meg, what's something that's

Meg: Oh sure. I mean we already sort of talked about it, but man, books are really giving me joy right now. I think thinking about if I'm writing something next or I'm doing something next is, is hard. But reading the brilliant words of other people is always easy and feels very.

Familiar, even if the things I'm reading are challenging, are complicated. So, um, I've been reading The Alchemy of Inner Work. I'm apologize in advance if I say this name wrong, but it's by Lori Eve Decar, I believe. Um, I read the first sections of Bittersweet by Susan Kane and I have it ordered from a local bookstore.

I cannot wait for it to come. It's about like melancholy personalities. And I was like, oh my God, I've never felt so seen in my entire life. Um, and then , um, I've been slowly mur my way through this collection of short stories called Fruiting Bodies by Catherine Harlan. Um, and yeah, I think right now Joy, I just feel like, [01:18:00] I just feel like a sponge.

Like I'm not, I'm not ready to be wrung out yet. I'm just like soaking up all these little joyful things. Um, and just letting them kind of simmer and hang out in my brain and seeing what they're gonna turn into. Also, you know, daylight savings time, it's finally getting nicer in New York and I can go outside and sit with trees again.

And boy, that's nice,

Eva: That time on the East Coast I think is so precious

Meg: It's magical. Yeah. And we live in, we live in a neighborhood that doesn't have a lot of parks, so like it's a little bit of a hike to get to one. So when it's cold, it's like, I don't even see trees, you know? And so it's, it's very nice to be able to go sit on a bench and look at grass

Eva: yeah,

Kyley: Mm. Oh, I love that. I

Eva: yeah. And I, it's just about the little, little space though that you, going back to that, I would just say, um, I don't know. Yeah, you were, I think you were asking like, you know, what's next? And I, and I just wanna offer maybe like, you don't gotta figure it out. Like maybe it'll just make itself apparent to you in a way, [01:19:00] or maybe just like, I don't know, just, you just came up with a book, so I'm just like,

Meg: I know

Eva: you know, like, enjoy this

Meg: I know. It's so hard, but I hear

Eva: get into something else again, and that's gonna like totally wrap you up and, um, anyway, but that's,

Meg: No, but I, I hear that. Thank you. And you're not, you're not wrong. And I, I hope you find the same thing. I hope you're able to kind of like, enjoy the unknown instead of feeling pressured by it, to like sort it out immediately. Cuz there, I think there really can be such generative magic and so much freedom in, okay, what's next?

Like, and wandering

Eva: a wonderful segue because that was gonna be my joy

Meg: incredible

Eva: like, what is my joy? Um, and it was just like the, the realization of like, and the appre, I think deep appreciation of that this is a sacred time. Instead of being like, oh, I need, I need like fix something. Cuz I came, I came in hot into Austin and then I was like, here's my to-do list of all the things I need to do to get myself set up and I'm gonna like really slay and I'm gonna [01:20:00] like this idea of like redemption and blah, blah, blah, blah, blah.

After, after a split up, blah, blah, blah. Anyway. And now I'm just like, no, I've been here before and this has been the most transformative time and I don't even have to do shit. I don't even have to do shit because it's already happening. It's just like, just by being in the discomfort and Kylie, this is like a gift that you've given me.

It's like, yeah, you don't. I don't know, like life kind of does it for you. Like I'm already in it, I'm like, I'm showing up and I can just kind of trust and I think I am trusting. So that's, yeah, I'll just, I think that is my joy for this week. And also, I'll, I'll tack one on because this is just something so delightful, but, um, I have been like really putting myself out there and like making friends and I think I talked about this last week, but like, it's just been an ongoing thing and I'm so fucking proud of myself cuz I'm an introvert, but like, I I, my, I've been meeting really fucking awesome women and I'm just like, this is so cool.

Like, in person. Like in person, right? Cause it's only so much a time, it's like online. And, um, [01:21:00] my, one of my dear clients, former clients introduced me to her best friend, which like, it's just such an honor that someone's gonna be like, Hey, I like you and I like you and I want you, like meet in person. And so, and she was just so awesome.

So that's one of the gifts of this liminal space is that new things are being created. and then they'll become old. You know, these friendships hopefully over time will be old. But now this is the beginning and I just wanna soak that up.

Kyley: Ugh.

Eva: Yeah.

Meg: I just tell you how badass it is that you've done all of this? Like, like truly like it, because that's scary stuff and it's hard. And I'm an introvert too, and like moving to a place by yourself and like starting over on your own terms and having to figure out what that even means for you and like what you need to like, feel safe and secure and like being in that luminal space.

Like that's absolutely badass and like, like just truly straight up

Eva: I feel very, thank you. That's incredibly, I feel very seen and I received that [01:22:00] with gratitude, . Um, all right, Kylie, what about.

Kyley: Um, so Birdie turned four on Friday, which as the time recording was St. Patrick's Day. And, um, I made a, I made a commitment that I don't work on my kids' birthdays. Um, and so we, We took the train into Boston. Birdie wore, we all wore our, we all wore fancy clothes, so it was St. Patrick's Day. So Desi had like full head to toe green

Meg: you went into Boston on St. Patrick's Day, that is also brave in a totally different way.

Kyley: we were, it was like, it was likes, Desi was like, I'm gonna count all the people that I see were in green. And I was like, great. And then it was like 20, I was like, oh, I thought we would see, we were like in the financial district. So, you know, that explains it. But, um, birdie wore this like pink dress that has like sequins all over the top and t on the bottom.

And um, and we went to a fancy [01:23:00] bakery and then we walked to the aquarium. And every single hotel doorman that Birdie walked by Brady was like, we're gonna be like, where are my favorite colors? Pink. And then she, I think she had been to the aquarium when she was like 10 months old. Right. So basically she'd never been to the aquarium before. And um, Desi hadn't been in a long time and they just were so delighted, like, oh my God, the Seals, that bird pretty loved the seals. She like, it was just so great watching her be like both of them, watching them both just be like totally ecstatic.

just seeing their delight at the aquarium was so fucking great, and like being in the city with them that I lived for so long and, um, there's a stingray tank in the aquarium now, and so like they, we, they literally maybe take them back there three times to the

um, [01:24:00] was just best. And then we walked back to, and then Nick took a half day, so he met us there. We walked back to the train and birdie was so tired, her tiny little legs, like she could not make it back to the train and she were taking turns carrying her and she was just going, I'm so tired.

Meg: Little mood.

Kyley: You like, it just made me think of like, I remember when I was a kid and my parents would take me on, like, take me to the city or whatever. And like that, like just exhausted happy feeling of like a good day.

Eva: The best feeling when you're like asleep, asleep in the car and you're like, parents carry you out. And like I would pretend to like kind of be asleep even though I was kind of awake. Cause I didn't like wanna have to walk myself

Kyley: Right, right. Yeah. So Birdie and I

Meg: I was like, I was never asleep, but I would definitely pretend to be

Kyley: right. Fair, fair. Birdie, birdie and I both fell asleep on the train. Um, she, she like fell asleep in my lap and I like, maybe that's what you need. Maybe we need a birdie because she's like a sleep amplifier. Like I [01:25:00] fall asleep with her all the time.

Eva: Yeah. You're also a sleep deprived mother of two young kids though.

Meg: Yeah. Yeah.

Kyley: But it was, um, yeah, it was just like, it was just a perfect, it was a perfect day. It was like the most fun day that I've had in a really, really long time. And then within a couple days that my, everybody got sick and Birdie spent all day today being a sick mess. And that was also very sweet cuz she just asked for snuggles and I, she also fell asleep and, and, um, in my arms and I don't know. I guess motherhood. My kids.

Eva: These days

Meg: That's a good joy.

Eva: Yeah. I mean these, I love that you carve out this time for the birth. It, it, it is bec it becomes this like, um, ritual slash tradition tradition that you're gonna like have with your kids that they'll remember and like that you'll remember and yeah. It's just super

Meg: Yeah, it is really.

Kyley: yeah. It was cute actually. And one more thing about the birthdays in the morning. There was one moment of like high expectations and tears. You know, like high [01:26:00] expectations are a bitch, right? And so everyone's gonna cry. And then I had to like give them this little pep talk that I was like, here's the thing.

Even on birthdays, even on when you're having everything is like great, and it's a great adventure, you're still human. Everyone still gets hungry and cranky, everyone still cries. It doesn't mean it's a bad birthday. And, and then

Eva: teaching moment,

Meg: I was gonna say, you'll probably cry on your birthday again sometime.

Eva: that's true.

Kyley: abs to fucking

Eva: run all your birthdays,

Kyley: Because I have like, actually like a very cyclical thing that happened to me in childhood, even do adulthood if we're honest, where like I would be like really, really excited about something and psych myself out with expectations and then like just end up crying.

Like I fi, I got a tour of the White House when I was in middle school and I like wanted to be president of the United States for a long stretch of elementary school . So this was a big deal and I ended up literally crying. The entire tour of the White House was me just like having a meltdown because I couldn't, I just said like psyched myself out and my parents were [01:27:00] just, you know, doing the best they could, but they were also completely exhausted.

Long story short, I also felt grateful to be able to like maybe help them not make the same mistakes as me.

Eva: Mm. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, that's a good lesson.

Kyley: can make their own.

Eva: like your birth birthdays are weird. Birthdays always have high

Meg: birthdays are weird. Yeah.

Kyley: Yeah.

Eva: Yeah.

Meg: particularly like my birthday, but then it has its own weird expectation. You know what I mean? Like no matter what your relationship is with your birthday,

Eva: when's your birthday?

Meg: November 4th.

Eva: Oh my God, that's my brother's birthday.

Meg: Oh, really?

Eva: But you don't like that birth.

Meg: Oh, no, I, I, I just don't, I don't know. I'm, my birthday's always like a weird day and I've had like weird things happen on it before, so it's not like, just like a generally positive, oh, good.

Things happen on my birthday. It's always kinda like, okay, what are we doing today? Like, , you know, like,

Eva: Yeah. I hear.

Meg: I have to pretend to be happy. Okay, it's gonna be fun. I don't really care. Like I gotta do this thing. And the people like, it's your birthday. And I'm like,

Kyley: I just instituted a new house rule. My [01:28:00] birthday is May 15th, and so sometimes it falls on Mother's Day or else it's like very, very close. And I was like, look, here's the deal. I can manage my expectations around my birthday and I can manage my expectations around Mother's Day. But you combine those two and I basically need the whole day to be plated in fucking gold.

And that is not fair for any of us. And then I end up miserable. So our new rule starting this year is that we celebrate Mother's Day two weeks early than my, than

Eva: my God. I

Meg: It's such an arbitrary day. Plus it's the worst day to go to a restaurant.

Kyley: Oh, for sure.

Meg: It's the worst one. So like you're also can get a good reservation.

Kyley: Yeah. I was like, I don't wanna just

Meg: your

Kyley: at everybody and I don't, and I don't wanna be mad at myself. And also like I'm kind of a diva. I want everyone to make it about me. So,

Eva: But I also love that you can just reclaim it and you can make up your own rules, you know, like I think I've had the idea that I wanted do that for my birthday, because my birthday is January 6th, which is like right after Christmas and New Year's

Kyley: Now it has a whole bunch of association.

Meg: sure does. I'm so

Eva: Oh yeah. And ex. Exactly. Exactly. And, and now all that shit. [01:29:00] And also it's like cold and like no one wants to go. So I'm like, I wanna like, do I wanna like do something like that or I'm gonna celebrate early or late or something, just because, especially when I turn 40, oh my God. The expectations around that I'm gonna wanna maybe get, so I'm gonna figure something out like that.

Maybe Kylie, you can help me think of ideas of like how I can reclaim it.

Kyley: I mean,

Meg: I love that

Kyley: already have ideas, but one is that you have your like 39 and a half or your 40, 40 and a half birthday, and so July 6th at adventure,

Eva: Um.

Meg: that's pretty solid. That's pretty solid.

Eva: that's good. That's good.

Kyley: but that would be too far. You might still want it to be, have some, some proximity to your

Eva: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Anyway, so, t b, D, but thank you for the inspiration.

Kyley: Yeah.

Eva: All right, Meg. Uh, it, we love having you on

Meg: I love being on, y'all are so much fun to talk to. We could be doing this for hours, but we're all exhausted so we're not gonna

Eva: come back. When you have your next thing,

Meg: Yeah. When I figure out whatever I'm doing next, we'll come back and talk about it.

Eva: end and beginning. But, um, what do you, yeah. Is there anything you wanna promote or where can people find you?

How people [01:30:00] work with you? All the

Kyley: Restate the name of the

Meg: Yeah. My book is called Finding the Fool, A Tarot Journey to Radical Transformation. Um, it's out from Weiser books. You can buy it anywhere books are sold, but please support your local indie bookstore because they are the best. , I dunno if you can hear all the sirens going by. I'm so sorry. Um, I don't know if you can hear them or not.

Um, but it was very loud in here, . Um, and then, yeah, like I am, uh, I have a few classes that are available kind of on an evergreen basis. I have other classes I teach at set times. Um, I have digital books you can buy. I have all kinds of things and all of that you can find on my website, 3:00 AM tarot.com.

Um, I also have a newsletter that I run, which you can also find there. It's called Devils and Fools. Um, and that is the best way to support me. Um, I know we're moving into a recession of subscriptions for newsletters to readers and writers that you like are amazing ways to support, um, small businesses and indie creators.

Uh, but yeah, 3:00 AM tara.com is the best place to find all of my shit. [01:31:00] Um, I'm at 3:00 AM dot taro on Instagram, which is weird. Instagram is weird right now. Um, and I'm at Meg Jones wall on Twitter, which is even weirder right now. , so like.

Eva: media is just weird.

Meg: social media's having a time right now, so yeah, really the newsletter and the website are the, the most reliable places to find me these days.

Kyley: Awesome. All right, everyone go by finding the fool. You will not regret it. And then buy a copy for your friend and Meg. We'll, we can't wait till we have you on the show again.

Meg: Thank you so much for having me. You too, are such a delight.