Simona Irwin is a Toronto-based mindfulness teacher, somatic practitioner and family constellation facilitator who weaves nervous system tending, deep ecology, and embodied movement into spaces of belonging and aliveness.
Simona Irwin is a Toronto-based mindfulness teacher, somatic practitioner and family constellation facilitator who weaves nervous system tending, deep ecology, and embodied movement into spaces of belonging and aliveness.
This is a conversation about healing, but not in a neat or prescriptive way. It’s about what it means to live through something difficult, to change because of it, and to keep meeting yourself as that change continues.
What we cover in this episode:
🌊 The practice of letting life change you (instead of trying to control every outcome)
🧠 Chronic illness, fear, and the surprising role of the nervous system in healing
🔥 The exhausting loop of trying everything—and what happens when you stop
💔 Mother wounds, grief, and the complexity of showing up at the end of a life
🪶 What “willingness” actually looks like in real time (not the Instagram version)
🌀 The tension between mystical experiences and being a grounded, practical human
🌱 How giving others grace can quietly open the door to giving it to yourself
🧍🏻♀️ The parts of us that resist healing—and why they might not be wrong
Contact Simona -
https://turningtowards.me/
https://www.instagram.com/turningtowards/
Eva's instagram: @iamevaliao
Book a discovery call with Eva
Kyley's Instagram: @kyleycaldwell
Kyley's free mini-course
Simona + 2
Eva: [00:00:00] hi. Welcome to Hello Universe. I am Eva and so excited for this week's episode because we have my dear friend, uh, she's a mindfulness teacher, somatic practitioner, and all around just badass woman Simona Irwin is here today as our guest and I'm so excited to talk about all the things that we relate to related to chronic health or chronic chronic illness and family mother wounds.
And I would love to hear more you share about your. What sounds like adventurous life that I've had a chance to peek into every now and then when we meet. Um, so welcome Simona.
Simona: Thank you [00:01:00] so much. I'm so happy to be here with you both.
Eva: Yay. Okay. So, as you know, the question we'd like to start off with is, what's something that life is teaching you right now?
Simona: Mm. I was thinking about this just like right before we hopped on, and the big theme in my life right now is allowing change really, um, this practice like daily ongoing practice of how do I let life change me, um, without control and gripping and grasping and I'm, I'm, I don't have the answer yet,
Kyley: Well shit.
Simona: coming.
Eva: Wait, can you say more about letting life change you though? What, what do you mean by that specifically? What and, and what it. And if, if you're open to saying more about what's brought that on this lesson of yours.
Simona: Yeah. Yeah. So I think it, you know, I'm 45 now and I feel like I've lived [00:02:00] some life and, and I've really recognized throughout my life that there's been this desire, you know, every, every time something is changing, I. Kind of dig my heels in or grasp or try to, um, shape the change. And what I've learned in the past few years is that the change is happening so I can brace against it or I can soften to it.
And I had this like beautiful image come to mind. Um, one time when I was in the middle, actually in the middle of my mom's death, and it was this like surrender and actually letting change, change the shape of me, like how it actually changes our fascia and our tissues and how we look and how we show up in the world.
And, and allowing myself to, to give myself to change instead of thinking that I'm the change maker.
Kyley: Mm.
Simona: Mm-hmm.
Eva: Yeah. My [00:03:00] ego doesn't like that very much. 'cause I want, I'm like, I, I wanna be in control. Um, yet, you know, I. I think especially, you know, 'cause you had shared with me a little bit about your mom's death, but even in, especially in moments like that where you really get to see that you, you have no choice.
Surrender is the only,
and then that's what makes it actually really beautiful sometimes when we can actually do the big letting go.
Simona: Yes.
Yeah.
Kyley: Can I ask then? This is literally the whole lesson of my meditation. The other day I drove to the ocean and like sat there and burned in sense and had a whole moment, and this was the whole theme. So I'm very excited. This is where we're starting. Um, how do you experience letting life change you? And, and I think also to like pull back the curtain, I think there are these moments that are like really big and kind of dramatic in the way that they're [00:04:00] changing us, right?
The loss of a parent for sure. Like, you know, loss, like these kinda big things where it's like, duh, you're being changed whether you want it or not. And of course we like grip, but, um, but then they, I think there's also these moments where the, the change is subtle, right? Or like life, like the invitation to be changed by life is, is really subtle. Um, and, and so I'm curious to know like how we navigate the, when, when it's not as all, when, like there's these moments where it's like, let go or be dragged.
Simona: Yes.
Kyley: And then there's these moments where it's like, well, you could stay here and kind of refuse change. You'll suffer for it, but technically. Do you get what I'm trying to point to?
Simona: Yes. Yeah. Yeah. That's such a good question. And, and I think I've, I agree with you that I, I think we notice more of those big moments of change where it's like we're in the washing machine of life and it's like, okay, I need to [00:05:00] surrender and let this happen. And still sometimes we don't. And then sometimes there's these slow, subtle changes and, you know, the image that I have is like a soup, you know, kind of coming to cook and, and we're in it and we don't know we're in it.
And, um, and I think it's harder to recognize that and harder to, you know, and still for me, I guess what I've figured out is that there's cues in my body and. When I feel my like control turn on, that usually is a good sign that life is changing and I'm struggling with it. And so when I feel that like control or that tension in my body or that tightness, now I've started to ask like, what am I bracing against?
What do I think is even happening here? What am I bracing against And is it possible for me to let go? And sometimes it's not, but I'm trying more and more to, [00:06:00] to imagine that it could be.
Kyley: Uh, I really love this question. What am I bracing against? Because I think one of the things that I have been watching lately is like, basically life's trying to get really good, and the change that I've been dragging my feet around is like, I mean, if it's mid, I'm a little more comfortable. Right? Um, and, um, and so I really like this question of like, what am I bracing against?
Because it feels like an invitation to be cur, like, to like be curious about. The resistance to change instead of making it wrong, which of course is
we know is the answer.
Simona: Yeah, yeah, absolutely. Yeah. I had a, something come up just in the past week. Or so, and then I had this like, incredible kind of dream, um, and I was being held up by these, like two little strings, these two like golden strings. [00:07:00] And then my body was being totally like dismembered in this way and I really recognized it as change and this and, and that peak moment of change where.
We feel like there's no ground underneath us and, and that we have to trust on some level or we don't have to, but we could trust on some level and like really, um, disorganize and then let it organize again and let something new emerge from it. And I feel like the older I get, the more I'm willing to let something new happen or be curious about like, oh, if I let this happen, could it be that something like beautiful will come out of this?
And I feel I'm more connected to that than, than when I was younger.
Eva: Mm-hmm.
Kyley: Can I ask one more question? Um, what have you found when you've asked this question? What am I bracing against? What have you found as an [00:08:00] answer
Eva: Oh, that's a good one. Kyley.
Simona: Yeah.
Eva: Let's dig deep.
Kyley: Maybe you'll tell me and then I don't have to go find the answer myself. I'll just take yours.
Simona: Yeah, it's, it's a great question. I think so like the, the mini answer would be like, my thoughts, my thoughts about the future for sure. So it's always, I find, you know, again and again, it's like, what am I bracing against? Well, there's an image in my head of how this is gonna turn out and my body is like, you know, doubling down on that.
Um, but for me, that image is usually has a core theme. And so for me it's like, I'm gonna do it wrong. It's gonna turn out badly, it's going to harm my kids in some way, or I'm gonna fail. And so whatever version my mind comes up that day with the image, then it's like, oh, well I can't change. I have to. I have to do something here because I have [00:09:00] to make sure that that imagination doesn't happen, and I'm slowly learning that that's an imagination and that I don't have to stop it.
Kyley: Mm mm
Eva: Thoughts Kyley?
Kyley: I mean, I have a million, but I feel like I'm, I, I wanna give you space for.
Eva: Well, I mean, okay. I'm gonna like veer off a little bit, so if you have other questions related to this, I would say shoot your shot. Now before I rewind a little bit.
Kyley: Um, I just wanna, I just wanna name when you mentioned like the fear of something happening to your kids, I just, I just wanna name how much I think every single person I know who is a mother. Uh, I have the tears in my eyes that aren't just from allergies. Um, is like, is this such a like, huge way with reason for the why we resist change because like our orientation is around taking care of our children [00:10:00] regardless of their age, right?
Like, I'm sure my mother does the same thing and I'm 40. Um, but I think, um, I just appreciate you naming that. And I also, one of the things that I am constantly discovering, and I wonder how this shows up for you too, but like the, the things that I'm imagining, right? So if I'm like, resistant of change, 'cause I'm gonna go, well, I don't wanna disappoint anybody.
That's a big one for me. But then all the ways in which I enact control to maintain, like to resist the change are always the things that cause people to be disappointed in me. Right? Whatever the thing
is, all the ways in which I'm resisting change are creating the very thing that I supposedly don't want.
Eva: Yes,
Simona: Yes, every time ev like, I can't think of a time when that's not true. And, and still it takes decades to learn this lesson and to stop bracing and, you know, realize that it's usually the exact [00:11:00] opposite is true
Kyley: Yeah.
Simona: and move forward. But I think the hard part, like we said, is, you know, part of change is that it feels like there's no ground underneath us.
So we're taking a step on a fresh page that hasn't been written in my case, feels like it hasn't been written in my family or my lineage. You know, it's how I normally walk is you know, what they've taught me. And then in these new moments it's like, oh, I'm taking a step, but actually there's no image of how this could turn out because my mind doesn't have the data for this version of life.
Eva: Mm-hmm.
Simona: I think that continues to be the hardest part for me is just like, trust that you can put a foot out and that life will like, oop, come up and meet it.
Kyley: Yeah. Or that you'll put a foot out and you'll just keep fucking going and tumbling. But the tumbling will be for you. So either way, take the step.
Simona: Yeah. I love that. I think that's like [00:12:00] really true and it's like, and does the tumble need to be like catastrophic and awful, or can we be like, curl up and like, you know, be like, okay, I'm just, this is what we're doing now too. Yeah.
Eva: Or I feel like if someone more up your alley is like, or is it a tumble that turns into a dance? You know
what I mean? And then you just start shaking your body in all these fun, fun, weird ways. And then you're just like, well, actually that was unexpected, but wonderful
in, in an unexpected way.
If we can like, you know, learn to go with the waves, you know, they say like, you can either learn, you know, you can,
Simona: Yes.
Eva: yeah.
Learn to surf the waves.
Simona: Yeah.
Eva: Okay. So what I'm seeing here though is really like a theme around safety. Actually, everything that you mentioned, you know, like, you know, I'm gonna do it wrong, Kyley, about disappointing people, your, you know, wanting to protect your kids.
Simona: Yeah.
Eva: Um, for me, I keep wanting to bring it back to Somatics because it's like, you know, you could even say part of like the, the, the foundation of [00:13:00] my spiritual practice is like, can I trust life?
You know,
can I trust life? And that's a very spiritual practice for me. But I also find that it's really hard for me to trust life when I have all this fucking trauma stored in my body
and it's like a somatic thing. And so, you know, you talked about how like it's taken you years to sort of learn how to let go and let life change you.
But I also wonder if you can maybe we can Yeah. Start to talk about and dissect how the Somatic healing has been a part of that. 'cause I actually think they go hand in hand. Like if you're not. At home in your body and feeling safe, then why would you ever be like, alright, let life change me. You know, you're gonna hold onto dear life.
And, um, yeah, I, I get a sense that, yeah. Uh, yeah. I don't even know where to start. I mean, if you, if you wanna talk a little bit more about maybe your origin stories and how, how,
those fears got placed in your body.
Um, we can, we can go from there.
Simona: yeah, for sure. Yeah. [00:14:00] So, um, as you mentioned, I've had a bit of a wild life ride and some of the highlights slash lowlights of that, um, have been, um, like a lot of trauma when I was growing up. So I had, um, I had like a. Semi-regular start to my life. And, um, but with like young parents who were really busy and, and you know, an older brother who's just two years older who took care of me a lot when we were really young, we were left alone quite a lot.
And then my parents got divorced and it was this really big moment where something had happened with my dad and then like immediately my mom was like, okay, we're packing up. Like, get in the car, we're we're leaving. And so it was like a very fast turnaround from. Just like waking up one day and thinking life looked like this.
And then all of a sudden life looked [00:15:00] totally different. And I, there was so much in that moment that I didn't feel like, I remember being, I think I was like eight and someone was, you know, how do you feel about, you know, that you're leaving and you're not really saying bye to any of your friends? And, and I was just like, I feel great.
And like I had this smile and I think it's gonna be really fun. You know, and just really, um, being numb already at that age. And then as we ended up landing, my mom, you know, took the, uh, the situation that happened with my dad. was partial, partially like infidelity. And that had happened to her mom and that had happened to her mom.
And so there was like this huge wound that happened and right away my mom turned to alcohol. And then, you know, there's like lots of InBetween. But the short story is that she really [00:16:00] veered that direction. And then I had an older brother who eventually was diagnosed as schizophrenic, but had like a very, a very challenging time and was quite, um, you know, loving in some ways and also very abusive in a lot of ways.
So I lived in this family house and this household that was. Truly dangerous all the time, whether it was neglect and not having enough food or someone in like violent outbursts or, um, you know, bottles all over the house or car accidents or someone going to jail. Like all of these, all of these things.
And so when I was 13, I, I was partially, my mom locked me out of the house one day. Um, but then I also decided to not go back. And so I lived on the streets and I lived at my friend's houses for, um, almost 10 years until I was 21 or so. I was just like a, a [00:17:00] traveler of the world and also, um, you know, unhoused and slept in parks and, um, and it's, you know, it's, it's an interesting thing to reflect back on because there was so much.
Difficulty and there was like trauma and, um, pain and so many things I wish I would've had. And I also ended up meeting these incredible healers and these, you know, shamans that like, took me under their wing and were like, oh, you're gonna be our apprentice now. And, you know, hitchhiked to Joshua Tree and to Sedona and all of these places.
So it was this birth of, um, a part of me that I had always had, but it really was born out of this, um, you know, mixed with this terror. Like this. Beauty and terror have been a theme in my life from the time I can remember.
Eva: [00:18:00] Mm.
Yeah.
Well, I can really relate to that. The, the beauty and terror. I think, um, I find it very cathartic actually, to hear other people's stories of having grown up with like, you know, parents with addicts and mental health issues.
Um, and, but it's because, and I, and I often find that push pull too, because I, in some ways I had this like, beautiful childhood, you know, and also it was completely fucked up.
And it's like, and I, it's so, I mean, this is the spiritual practice as well, but living with both and it's always like, how well can we hold two opposing things together? And they were both true and one doesn't negate the other. And that's been kind of hard for me to, I am still learning that. But, um,
Simona: Yeah.
Eva: yeah, it can do a number on you too, though.
It's very
Simona: Yeah. And especially I find after too, like there's a, there's something too about, you know, it's one thing to grow up in it and just live it as your lived experience. And actually it's pretty normal and it was difficult and scary [00:19:00] and hard. But there's also something as you get older and you hear other people reflect, and then you start to be like, oh, well my life was not like that.
And then you learn more about trauma, and there's this interesting interplay of also like this shame that arises where it's like, oh, I, I wasn't taken care of, or I didn't, you know, we didn't have enough food in the fridge, or I didn't get to, you know, a lot of my birthdays were missed. And, and these things that were painful in the moment, but almost become more painful when you tell people about it and then you're
Eva: because then there's like a label that goes on it, you know, there's almost like, it's almost like you experienced it already the first time, but, and you experienced it and it was, the experience in itself came with all of the sensations of good or bad or pain, or not pain, but then there's like a story that goes on top of it and a label, you know, and then the comparison, and then you, it solidifies this idea.
And so that's really interesting. 'cause I remember when you had shared with me some of your story, that was exactly what you explained to me. I was like, [00:20:00] I was like, you were like, I was just living my life, you know? Back then I was just living life and you weren't, you hadn't categorized it as anything else than that.
Simona: Yeah. And it's like the grief, I didn't even understand the grief of it until later. And, and you know, as timelines go, it's, you know, we, yeah, we look back and it's like, oh, right, I didn't, I didn't have that. Or Oh, you didn't have, you know, your mom come in and yell crazy things when your friends were over.
Like, oh, okay.
Eva: Yeah, exactly. Yeah, you, yeah, exactly. I have so many crazy stories about my mom. You mean you guys didn't regularly get into car accidents and then have to like talk to the police? I just thought that was like an everyday Thursday thing.
Simona: Yeah, exactly. Right. And then it's like, oh, how am I gonna take this and what's the meaning I'm gonna make about this for me and, and what is true and what's gaslighting myself. And I think one of the interesting things that comes from childhood trauma is both what happened and Yeah. That's stored in the body.
Then [00:21:00] so much is like the meaning we made out of it in the moment about whether we're loved or not. But then later when we tell people, there's like another layer of like, oh, what are they thinking? And what does this mean about me and my value as a person? Which I thought about a little bit when I was younger, but not, not so much until I was older.
And, and then I was like, oh, right. Like, oh yeah, you have this, or you have a house, or you have these things and, and I don't have these. And, and then of course the mind is, you know, wants to make a meaning out of that. And
for me, that's been, I mean, all of it had ups and downs, but I still feel in my body somatically the most painful parts for me still are like the meaning, the all the different meanings that I've made out of it.
Kyley: To tie this into our conversation about change too, I think one of the things that I've been watching, especially this past year is like letting my experience, like [00:22:00] the story of my life also be something that changes. Because I think, like, I also had like a very, like my mother's like very charismatic and was 18 years old when I was born and
you know, has been, has been sober for a really long time, but wasn't when I was growing up.
And so like, I also had this childhood that was like, like there was like really high highs and really low lows, right? And. And I think there was a period where like I was like the ultimate defender of my FA family, right? It was like, Nope, this is the best thing ever. And then of course I had the moments of like the moment of like, oh wait, no, actually this has been really awful. And then that story of the like awfulness of it is really important. And I
think in some ways we like go through, you know, it like it's constantly evolving. But lately I have been like just really feeling like this space inside of me and a desire to keep making the space inside of me just for the richness of all of it, right?
Like it was high highs and low lows [00:23:00] and like what does it mean to like, let this experience not have story, right? But neither be good nor bad without like with seeing all the ways I needed it to be different things. And I needed those stories at different moments. Like, what does it mean to let my own experience?
It's like it's a static thing. It happened.
But also to let it keep changing in terms of like how I experience it and what it means and how it lives inside me.
Eva: [00:24:00] Mm-hmm.
Simona: Yeah. I love that so much. It, it really reminds me, um, of when my mom was dying and we had been estranged for so long, and then I saw her, you know, once in a while and then when she was much closer to death, I saw her more often and I went into her hospital room one time. I was so beautiful and she was like, so like, lit up from the inside.
It was just this moment and she looked at me and she said, I've been having all these memories, like move through my mind. And she was talking about herself in, in third person and she was like, I don't understand what that lady was doing with you. And like, how could she have been so cruel? Like you were [00:25:00] just a little girl.
It was. So, yeah. And it was, so this, you know, again, it was like added her layer into the change story and the change perspective, but also this like deeply powerful moment of like, oh wow, I never thought that you would see that. Um, and she was so, uh, confused by it. Like she really was, the, the, the story was one time when my brother was in psychosis and he like ran out into the night and she said that I turned and looked at her for like, you know, we have to do something.
Someone needs to chase him or we need to help him. And she said, and she was like, and I said, nothing to you. I didn't even look at you. I went up and, and ended up drinking for like three days and didn't say one word to you. And then her reflection was like, how could someone ever do that? And it
Eva: genuine, like it sounds like a
really [00:26:00] genuine sense of like confusion and like
under and compassion
Simona: Yeah, yeah. Like this, like life review almost, but before, before the death. And then that moment created a change where it was like, oh, I can soften to you now and I can see you. And it led us into the change of, you know, in six months our relationship of all of the ups and downs changed into like, oh, I see you and I see you excited to, you know, get these pain medications and actually I don't judge you anymore.
Like, I love you
and I actually see that you're a beautiful human. And I couldn't get there before because I was so braced against even letting her change, um, because I had such a, a story about her. Yeah.
Eva: Yeah. Well you have both of us in tears.
Kyley: I.
I'm [00:27:00] so struck by that moment. I'm gonna just cry on, on, a recording of, um, how could I even do that? Because I feel like, um, I have been having a bunch of con conversations with my clients lately about our inner children and specifically this part of ourselves who's like, don't you see me? Don't you see me?
Simona: Yes.
Kyley: And how much longing I can, like a mess y'all. How much longing we all have just to have these people that we, these grownups in our life, just see us, you know? And, and I'm just thinking about the times that I lose my shit on my kids and I'm pretty good at like coming back and being like, that wasn't okay.
You know? Um, but like I'm just so struck by how much all of us have this little kid who's like, don't you see me? Don't you see me? And how much each of us deserve that. Like really, really, really deserve that. And um, I love that your mom could give you that.
Simona: Yeah, it was a huge, it was like a [00:28:00] miracle. It was so unexpected and one of those, those pieces where I was like, I'm so glad. I was willing. To show up for this because it gave me, again, it was that idea of like, okay, everything in my mind says my mom is a narcissist and an addict and is harmful, and I can believe and, and, you know, follow that line and not talk to her at all before she dies.
Or I can be open and have a beginner's mind and like put a foot out. And I'm so grateful that I did. And I know it doesn't work like that for everyone in the moment. Everyone's experience is different, but I was so glad that, um, I trusted that impulse of like, let's just see what happens, which is like a timeline
Eva: Mm-hmm.
Simona: of like, let's see, you know, and to follow it and get that deepened, uh, like the trust that you're [00:29:00] talking about.
It's like, right. I can't, like life does meet me.
Eva: Yeah. And, and the part of the story that that caught my attention was how you talked about how you could soften to her. Like, you know, you, you, you noticed in her genuine compassion or genuine, maybe even like an innocence, you know, as she's talking in third person, seeing herself, there's this innocence of like, then you could see that innocence in her, not that she didn't cause harm, but you know, what there, and you could note, notice that, which then allowed you to soften to her, which is like so wonderful for her.
But it's also so wonderful for you to be able to soften to these people who we've been so guarded or, you know, guarded against our entire lives. It's a gift, you know,
and it's just interesting because, but it, but it's. I don't know. What's coming up for me is this idea, this sense of like, I dunno how this is gonna sound, but Byron Katie has a story about how [00:30:00] she walked her mother to death.
And it was like this really beautiful experience, you know, and hearing about your experience was also like, this had an opportunity for a beautiful experience. And I often, I, I often wor worry or wonder, like, I don't know what my mom's death is gonna be like, like I, I can see myself wanting to spiritualize it.
I can see I do it all the time. I'm like, I'm gonna be by Katie and I'm gonna be so loving and I'm gonna be so open and so kind. And anything that she does, like, I will just under, you know, like, I have, I, I put this like this, it's, it's, it's, it's ridiculous, but it's also definitely there and it's holier than a fucking bow.
And I just need to
be like the, you know, like, and, and I'm gonna walk her to death and just be, and I don't, and I also wanna give myself grace if like, that doesn't happen, you know? Um, but I guess, but when I. But I, when you shared with me about your mother's death, even before this podcast, I was really moved by the fact that it took courage for you to take that step because of all the shit that had happened.
And I really, I saw you, even [00:31:00] though from afar
just I had gotten tidbits enough to be like, wow, you're really willing, you're, you're the willingness to move forward I thought was like really courageous.
Simona: Mm, thank you. Yeah, I love the word willingness and it's something, you know, through my, you know, chronic, uh, health issues and through my complex trauma willingness has been this idea that really has saved my life, where, you know, mind screams danger. And then, you know, some like embodied presence says like, uh, I'm actually willing to check this out for myself and see what happens.
And I'm, so, yeah, I'm just, you know, I can't get over how, how much that changed my life. And then, and then how it allowed me to be, you know, I think really the person in my mom's death that was able to be there in that way. And I think, [00:32:00] you know, I like what you said because I, I don't know, like there's.
Sometimes we are the person, sometimes we're not the person. And you know, sometimes the person who with is open, you know, is someone different in the family that walks them to it and sometimes we're like the disgruntled one or, or whatever. And it's kind of like a family constellation, right? It's like we're all holding one role and you know, maybe there's no hierarchy in roles and, and this time I got to be the open-hearted one and, and you know, maybe with my other parent or in another time I might be, I might show up in a different way.
Um, and that they
Eva: The protected one. Well, the one who needs to protect themselves, and I think that's valid too.
Yeah.
Simona: Yeah.
Eva: Yeah.
Kyley: Also when you were talking about your mom, Eva, I had a little bit of like a flip, like a, like a little bit of like an irreverent thought, which was like you're, and your mother's relationship has been so richly populated with like fighting and yelling and crying [00:33:00] and loving that like, like why would you rob yourself of that richness when she's dying?
Eva: yeah, totally. Let's go with the bang. You know? That's what we know. That's what we,
Kyley: all.
Eva: I mean the, the great thing is like hopeful. I don't, I don't know if it's I, it would be this way, but if I am, if I'm willing, honestly, and if it is messy and we're fighting, I think. The gift of death is that if I'm willing, it can be really funny afterwards, you know, 'cause I'd be like, well of course it was that way.
You know? And just, I do think that there is a gift in death if we're willing anyway, you know, to not have it be so serious or, or punish ourselves for not grieving enough or whatever. Um, that could be a wonderful gift that my mom would give me.
Kyley: And I think in the, like the willingness and the change, and we've talking about this one foot out and I keep thinking of the fool card and tarot. If
anyone is a tarot card player, like or tarot card reader, like all of it is to say like, we have to [00:34:00] be, when we're in that space, that's where the actual miracles show up.
Right. Because I imagine Simona, if you were to like have scripted what could have been the best thing that happened if, if you went to go see your mom, I bet you wouldn't have have even imagined what happened.
Right. And like how many times are we like, you know, okay I have my like little teeny box of like script of what it is that I want and here's my, here's my order life and please give me exactly this back.
Right? And life laughs and is like baby girl, it's so much bigger and better and different and weirder than you could imagine,
Eva: Yeah.
Kyley: you gotta let go to find out.
Eva: Uh.
Simona: I love that. And I love, like, I love what you said too to Eva, like about each of our individual relationships with our moms, and then as we get older too, this like being able to see them as people, like when we can walk from that blank page and like, look again and it's like, [00:35:00] wow, who is this like wild person that just like exists in my life.
Um, one of the most potent, uh, inquiries like the Byron Katie inquiries that I. Did was around just the concept of mother. You know, who would I be if I had never even heard of the concept or this word? And then like, look at my mom from that blank page. And I was like so fascinated. I, you know, without this idea that like, she should be this, she should be nurturing, she should, she shouldn't have been an alcoholic.
Like all of that. And it was just like, who is this person? I found her aliveness and her beauty and how mischievous she was and troublesome and like a troublemaker
and, and there was so much to her. And without the concept of mother, you know, this isn't for everyone, but in my work, it, it was interesting for me.
I was like, oh, I can [00:36:00] love you so much in
Eva: Mm-hmm.
Simona: And that for me, uh, that was part of like the portal that opened where I was like, okay, now I can, I can do this death with you and I can, I can hold you as you die. And it can feel true and not, um, not like something I'm just doing for the relationship in some way.
Eva: Mm-hmm.
yeah. Wow.
Kyley: For there was a period. You know, in becoming a mother, it's, I called my mom when my son, he's my oldest, was like, and hit his first real temper tantrum. You know, like he was like on the ground, 18 months old or whatever, like having a temper tantrum. And I, I called my mom. I remember, I just remember like seeing, it was like that was this moment where I could like, have so much compassion for my own mother, right?
Who was not great at like, being patient with us when we were having big emotions. Um, and was like, oh God, you [00:37:00] were 19 years old. Like, you know, like I just had this moment of being, it was like, I think it wasn't until I became a mother and spent some time as a mother that I could see my mother as not mother.
Like I could see her as a person, right? That was like, but in order to get there, I had to like be mad at her about how she was, how I experienced and what I had my little box around mother and then. I feel like more and more these days I just have this sense of like her as mother, yes. But also just this richness of like her as a human and just being able to like adore and admire and experience that
Eva: Yeah. And also not take everything so personally. I mean that's, that's my experience when I see how I think my mother is. Supposed to be. And when she's not, it's like, anyway, I just make it about, I do. And that isn't like a slant against myself, but I do make it about me because I'm like, my mother should be this way towards me.
And then when she's human, it's like all of that. Yeah. Uh, [00:38:00] I wanna say expectation falls away. That doesn't mean that I don't hold her responsible at the same time, you know what I mean? But anyway, mother, mother relationships are, they're, they're a special kind. They really are. Yeah. And they can shape your, um, perceived reality, whether they're in your life or not in your life.
Yeah. Really
interesting.
Kyley: Can I ask Simona, how this experience with your mother's death shaped your experience as as mother to your own children?
Simona: Yeah. That's a great question. Yeah. So one thing, you know, as, as we were talking now too, it, it, it floated to mind was also this idea of like, our mothers were shaped, of course, by their, their own parents, but then by like the systems. Like the patriarchy, like all of these things. [00:39:00] Um, the way that it, it worked back then to have children, what it meant to be a woman, how you were left on your own in some ways.
And, and even, you know, when I think of my mom and her generation, it's like there was some freedom or they were like, okay, you can also go to university. And you know, my mom was in university when she had me. You, you know, but yet there still wasn't really any of this. Like, and there's like a village and you're gonna have help and, and let's, you know, there's all this trauma stuff and it's like they were just in this limbo place where they actually Yeah.
Didn't have any of that. And, and so, and so for me, part of the journey too is like both my mom and then it's like, yeah, these systems that we all live under and the oppression and different ways that we've all experienced and of course that they experienced. And like how, how could this pressure cooker have popped out anything different than my mom?
And, and for me that, that was [00:40:00] helpful. And then it also helped me, like you asked to look at my own role of like, okay, well what has happened in me and. And I think, you know, giving my mom Grace allowed me to give myself some grace for the missteps that I for sure have made. Whether they're known or unknown yet.
I'm sure my kids will tell me in the coming decades. Um. So for me it also was like I'm a person and, you know, and when I did that inquiry around Mother, I also recognized how much tension that concept created in my own body. And actually it didn't allow me to connect with my kids how I want to. It made me take a pretend archetypal role and that I hated, and then actually I would be resentful of my kids as opposed to, again, like the fool starting on the fresh page.
And it's like, let me look at these beautiful faces and like, [00:41:00] let me feel my own impulses and like, you know, let me know what I want to do and let's find our way through this in a new way. And, um, that's been really, really important for me.
Kyley: Yeah. I love this idea of like, liberating ourselves from the archetype and then what becomes
possible for our kids, for us, for our own mothers. I'm also making me think of, so my 6-year-old, she'll be seven actually, like next week. Um, and she, uh, I joke sometimes that hers is a possessive love. Like she just wants, like all, all the, all all of me, right?
Like she was at the playground yesterday and she kept like, mom, mom, look at me, look at me, look at me. Right? Um, and that is, I got, that is a, a that I have tension with sometimes, right?
So she came over to me and, and I have a lot of guilt. It's like, yeah, I should be looking at you all this. That's what you want.
Like, if that's what you want, whatever it is, I should be able to do it a hundred percent of the time. Right. And so yesterday she came running [00:42:00] up at the playground and I was reading a book that I was really into and she was like, mom, mom, will you play with me? And I just said, no. Like I didn't, there was like, it was like a, I've, I've, I was,
you know, I say no to her, but it was like probably the most lip free and liberated.
No, I have ever delivered to her. Right? I was just like, no, I won't play with you,
but you can go like, and you can do with that whatever you want. Right? 'cause I have also been working on like, and she can be disappointed, right? Codependent mother stuff. And, um, anyway, I just thought of that as you were talking about like being out of the archetypal role and like what becomes possible.
It's just this like totally liberated, like, no, I won't play
with you and I'm not even gonna tell you what to do with that. I'm just. No, I'm
gonna read my book.
Eva: Yes. And having it be a callback to what we were saying earlier, like when we. We think living in this mother role, this archetype is actually helpful, but that it does the exact opposite of what we actually want you, it is giving us, it's always giving us the [00:43:00] opposite effect. Like, and then, and then when we let ourselves be free, ultimately usually the outcomes are better, like a lot better.
So anyway, that's just how the mind tends to, you know, get in there and trick us.
Okay. Um, before I wanna move on to, again, I'm gonna bring us back to Somatics
because this is like, this is like, I'm here to learn. I'm here to learn. But is there anything else you guys wanna say about that before we transition about motherhood?
'cause this is all, we could talk about this forever, I'm sure. Okay. So then Simona, well, and this is like the crux of what you, of what you, of what you do for your work. And also, you know, you're someone who I think is so passionate about learning about somatics and, and, and also five rhythms. So
Simona actually gets, she leads us at the retreats in, in that we, um. That we do in aorn. You've led us for two years in a row, and that's always been like so fun. And I just love seeing the way that you move and how you direct us to move. But, um, I think my question is if you're, I wanna hear about your experience [00:44:00] with chronic illness and how you, would you, I mean, your healing journey, I suppose, and where you feel like you're, you've landed so far.
Simona: [00:45:00] [00:46:00] Yeah. Yeah. So my journey with chronic illness, of course, like is so closely coupled with the trauma journey and, and also I didn't even know that I had, I, I had different chronic illnesses when I was younger, but now looking back, I can see like right after that big blow blowup of my parents and everything that happened, um, I was experiencing symptoms of chronic fatigue.
I was experiencing symptoms of pots that I had, that I had again later. Um, but I didn't know and I was just so in survival. It was just, you know, I just kept going with my little life as it was. And then as I got older, I had two really significant periods of illness. So one in my early twenties, as soon as I got a house, as soon as I settled into feeling safe, it was like my body and my [00:47:00] nervous system just exploded.
Like everything from pain to vertigo, to tinnitus, to, um, again, the pot symptoms, which is like the fainting and the dizziness and like the blood pooling in my legs. And, um, just all those different things that you could imagine they erupted at once. Um, but really heightened by insomnia and like the most severe anxiety that I could, that I could imagine exists in the world.
Eva: Mm.
Simona: And, um, so when I was 21 I had that, uh, three year period of that and I really had no idea how I was gonna get out of it. I was like very much on death's door. I remember going to a doctor and they were like, every one of your organs is, you know, inflamed and, but no one could really find what
Eva: Yes. Welcome to chronic illness. You know, it's like, ugh, this is for the [00:48:00] chronic I illness girlies and boys. But like, it is the fucking, it is the fucking, it's, it's part of the journey. You know, you gotta go to someone who's gonna be like, sorry, I don't know. I can't help you. Or like, or all, every, this looks fine.
You know? It's, it's,
it's it's maddening really.
Simona: Is maddening. And I remember also going, so that was like a regular doctor I went to. So many different, so many different places. And at one point I went to this chiropractor. And he was like doing this like teaching moment. And I was in there, you know, I'm like 20 something. Have lived through so much trauma, obviously I didn't share my trauma with them.
And he was like, you know, if this, he was talking about me in front of me and he was like, if this person really wanted to heal, they would be healed.
Eva: Oh my God.
Simona: and I remember just being like, he's like, when you really choose it, it like, it will happen. And I was like, oh, I, I really [00:49:00] choose it. Like I.
Eva: Choosing, trust me, motherfucker.
It.
Simona: Yeah, I was like, I like want to die. I'm like, I, I am choosing it every morning when I wake up and I remember being so offended. But interestingly, as I look back, it was a real fire for me to be like, fuck you.
Eva: Mm-hmm.
Simona: like, I'm getting better. And shortly, like probably eight months after that, I did get better
and, but still with this like, you know, this spite piece.
Um, but yeah. So
Kyley: can I, can I jump in? Just say, the other thing about it that pisses me off is like, what we are, like, we're made of so many parts and like, what if there was some part of you who didn't wanna get better?
That part of you deserves love. That third of you deserves care. Right? Like, like there, there there are resistant parts of us and they're not fucking [00:50:00] wrong and they have been believed to be wrong forever. That's why they're resistant parts, right? So it also like that, that, that logic, we split a lot in manifestation culture and it makes me so fucking mad because it's
like. Maybe some part of you isn't, is choosing some amount of suffering and like let's figure out what they need and
like how much they are not wrong.
Okay. I'll get off my Ted
Eva: Mimi. No. Well, I will,
Kyley: me.
Eva: I mean, I will say, and I have no doubt you must come across this in your teaching, Simona, but like there's the blessing of chronic illness is that it gets you angry and I think in a good way because you're just, you're seeing through all the fucking bullshit. And it's like there's all these different reasons to be angry.
And I was just talking to another friend of mine who recently got diagnosed with Parkinson's, but prior to that, again, no one could figure it out. And you know, she had gone to so many doctors and two of the doctors, well, I'll just think I remember once one specifically, but one of them was just like, I see a lot of women like you. And it was very much like a, he made it a woman [00:51:00] thing who like, come in here and just. Essentially saying that like she's making up these problems because it, like, you know, she, she's kind of hysterical, essentially is what he accused her of.
Simona: Yes.
Eva: And I was like, it's 2026, like, nothing's changed. Like it's, that shit is still happening.
It's, it's, and it, and it, and it is a wake up. It is. And I guess this is, you know, what you were, you know, what you were saying about this is just one, one sliver of it, but the awakening too, in some ways, liberation of not necessarily just, uh, yeah. Seeing through I think a lot of the, the veil and the bullshit and then learning how to come back into your own body and trust your own self.
Simona: Yeah, absolutely. Yeah. That, that is so true. And I think it's so interesting as you were saying that too, what I realized just in this moment, like live here together
was like, oh, like he activated my anger. [00:52:00] And, you know, both times actually what has brought me out is, um, beginning to feel my anger and my rage and all of that suppressed, uh, emotion that I had in my body for so long.
And it was, it, you know, I, the first time I went like the root of like full natural, you know, it's like I got every cavity change, like filling change from like the metal to the,
Eva: yes.
Simona: I did like a hundred parasite cleanse, the master cleanse every fast, like every candida diet, like I did three years of.
Uh, you know, every special snowflake thing that could happen to me, and I'm sure there was lots of benefits of it, and there was also a lot more control and a lot more fear that comes in when you go that route. Um, but then eventually
Eva: exhausting, like also when you have chronic fatigue, you're just ex exerting all of this energy and, and you become obsessive and hyper-focused and it's,
it can go, [00:53:00] it's uh, it can go downhill real quick.
Simona: yes. And expensive. And I, in that moment, you know, I had, I had been unhoused and then, and then I had a job, and then I got sick. And so I ended up being on, um, like social assistance when I was sick. And so I also didn't have any money, but somehow I, I can't really remember like how I made it all work in these different ways.
But yeah, it was, it was, it was very tricky. And then near the end of it, this guy, and then this other work started to bubble up. So I was in this. Again, this like shamanic school doing this apprenticeship. And I started to have these memories of my past and um, like physical abuse and sexual abuse and, and that was a big part too, of not so much the memory, but the somatic flashback of it.
Uh, I didn't understand it at the time, but now looking back, I'm like, oh, that level of terror that was coming up. Was the somatic flashback, and that [00:54:00] not knowing if my mom is alive or dead or that, that humiliation that was always brought on with her antics. Um, it was like all of that was trying to kind of flow through the river and I didn't understand it.
My mind was like super, um, you know, sticking to everything and trying to make meaning. And, and so I got so deeply entangled in it until enough was kind of let out that I was able to, to, you know, live my life. And then 20 years later I had like the life that, you know, I thought, I was like, okay, I made it.
I'm not, you know, the homeless person anymore. I'm like the CEO of an infant formula company. I'm married, I have these kids. Um, you know, I'm living this life that I want. And COVID hit and I likely got COID and I had this eye infection. I took an antibiotic. And then just the next day, it was like my brain [00:55:00] had just exploded and I stopped sleeping.
My body completely stopped working. It was like excruciating pain. Um, I slept for like 30 minutes a night for months. Um, it was just, and like every system of my body just, just broke. Um, and then it started that journey again of not choosing not to go and do all these like natural fixes and get all these tests.
Um, I was really lucky that someone pointed me in this direction of neuroplasticity and working with the nervous system. And so I started that journey.
Eva: Wow.
Kyley: And how was that? How has that journey? Been different, like what's been possible for you in
this other iteration.
Eva: Yeah.
that's, yeah, that's that's, that's the meat of the question.
Simona: That is. Yeah. So this journey was the most healing journey of my life. [00:56:00] It's, it, it brought, I think what I was like born into, um, which is, you know, a lot of like a devoted spiritual connected person right from the start. I kind of like lost that through the way always. I always had it, but I just, it wasn't, it wasn't the core center of my life.
And then when I got sick, um, I was like very, very unwell. And not sleeping creates a lot of unwellness in your body and in your brain. And so a big part of my journey was really learning that I am not my body and, um, and yet I'm completely my body. And so it was really this like double piece. But for me, I ended up at one point having had this really bad reaction to a sleep medication and I developed, um, like a type of [00:57:00] OCD where you have these really horrendous, violent, intrusive images come into your head.
And you're so like fragile in this state where it's like, oh my God, like is this part of me? Could I do that? And you get in this loop of like, um, you're like basically afraid of yourself. It happens actually a lot with like postpartum moms.
Kyley: I was gonna say I not, not perhaps to the intensity you're describing, but I had all a plethora of intrusive thoughts postpartum.
Simona: Yeah, so it's like that. But it was like, IM like, it was like very graphic and in images and it was all the time. And then with all the chronic pain and, and everything. And it was so awful. Like, you know, when I have clients who have this, my heart goes out to them. Like, I remember I was just like, how is this even inside of me?
Like, what is this? Like, is there like a mo? Am I possessed? Like, you know, you just have all of these, like how is it [00:58:00] possible that this lives in me, along with all this other stuff? And, um. What it led me to is really understanding like my mind, um, and really, um, like you said also with like allowing and including everything.
So the neuroplasticity work took me to the nervous system work and the somatic work, you know, and there's like so many stories within that, but the. Bigger piece was that I learned how to really allow all of it. And to start to understand that, you know, those thoughts have really nothing to do with me.
But there was an energy to them that actually was true, which was, I was full of rage
Eva: Hmm.
Simona: full of unexpressed rage and I had like a, you know, a huge amount of trauma. And of course I was, you know, people didn't take care of me. I was harmed. No one [00:59:00] stood up for me. Um, you know, I was, um, abused in a lot of different ways as a teenager when I had to like stay at people's houses.
And it was just that like, well, I need a place to stay, so I'm gonna be quiet. I'm gonna be quiet. And so eventually this like eruption happened and. Through time, you know, as I was able to dial down the fear and stop associating it with food and mold and environment,
then I was able to listen more deeply and start to feel like, oh, there's some emotion in here.
And then there's a shit ton of beliefs in here too that are a part of this. And then through the work, um, of Byron Katie and partially the work with Tom, I was really able to also just like start to understand, yeah, like what, what is making me, me, and what is keeping me hooked in this illness? And [01:00:00] one by one I started to kind of unhook.
Um, and through that, like I've shared with Eva, there was this huge, um, awakening that happened as I started to live my days. You know, what would it be like if I didn't believe any, not even one thing that's in my head today. And I, I just started to live this way and then I had this like big spiritual experience that I can share a bit about, and then this like piece came into my body that hasn't left and just changed everything and kind of brought me through that final, that final piece for me of illness.
Kyley: Wow.
I would love to hear more about this
Eva: Mm-hmm. Yes.
Kyley: experience.
Yes.
please.
Simona: Yeah, so. Yeah, so something, I mean, like we were talking about earlier, um, before we jumped on, it's, you know, there's so much that we don't [01:01:00] share about our lives and who we are. One, it feels like not relevant and I don't know, it's like timing. But for me, when I was six, I had my first like, spiritual experience and I had this, something happen at night, whether it was a dream or whatever it was.
And you know, in the way that I recalled it or how I understood it was like I met God and I had this like huge, like what I would now call like a, a, an awakening, but not, not in like the lame, cheesy version
Kyley: Yeah.
Eva: Mm-hmm.
Simona: of that word,
but more in the like, oh my gosh, everything is love. Uh, everything is happening right now and like I am.
M and um, and like everything is generative goodness. And it just keeps getting [01:02:00] more and more beautiful. I don't know. That's like, that's, so, I had this moment, I was six. I was like, I remember waking up, I was like looking around and I was like, does everyone know this? And, and so I went on this quest and that I, my parents were atheists and I asked them to take me to church and, or take me anywhere.
I was like, there's a synagogue over there, there's like a church over there. There's like, you know, can, like, I need you to take me because I, and I didn't tell them why in my own head. I was like, because this is gonna be my person. Like, I'm gonna meet someone there and they're gonna see me and like, we're gonna be able to talk about God.
And so they ended up allowing me to go to church.
Eva: Wow, this is wild. And you were six, you said?
Simona: I was six. And then I was like sitting this, so I didn't go to like the Sunday school. I was like sitting in the thing, I don't know anything about church or like this version of God because my parents don't believe God. [01:03:00] And so I'm like sitting there and the priest starts to do his thing and I'm like sitting so tall and like with my like
Eva: You're like so excited.
Bright eyes and just looking up like, I'm so excited to
Simona: like when
Eva: to people about God. Yeah.
Simona: Yeah, like when he's gonna see me and he's gonna see that like, I know.
And we're gonna like, we're going to, you know. And I remember him looking at me and he was saying all this stuff that I was like, this guy's doesn't even know what he is talking about. He, he's like talking about like all the separation, right? And he looked at me and I like did my moment and then he just like moved on and I was so like a, like my heart was just broken.
I was like, this guy, like, I was like, he's fake. It's like Tex laws.
Eva: Yeah. Yeah.
Simona: Like, I was like, he doesn't get it. And so that became like a formative piece. And then, you know, I had a lot of these experiences [01:04:00] through my life. Another one when I was 15 and kind of went into this space of just like being in this void again, in like this like big sense of oneness. And I was, uh, I was staying at someone's house at the time.
It was like, so, um, yeah, and I just ended up again, being in this thing that I didn't understand, but I wasn't scared of it, but it was just like, oh, I'm just in this like black void and like everything is everything and it all happens at once and my heart is full and, you know, and, and there was this message of like, you know, just keep going in your life because it was a hard life in that moment.
Um, so then again, when I was really sick and had all this shit going on, there was a night. And I was just awake, of course. 'cause I hadn't. So yeah. And I was sitting there and I was just doing one of my practices and then all of a sudden I like turned something in me, like turned [01:05:00] around and was like, looking in at myself.
And I just saw my mind and it was just like throwing thoughts. Like, it was just oop, like just like a baseball, you know? And, and it, and all of a sudden I was like, oh, it's like, it's all made up. Like
it just like landed and then, and then again, like this huge heart opening piece and like I can, I can feel the.
Like, it was so moving. I can feel that like, tenderness of it. It, yeah, it was so, there's like no words
for it, but it was just that like, oh, everything is made up. And, um, and we're so loved, like, there was such a deep sense of love and it was, and it was a, a little bit religious, like, there was like quite a few of these like visions of, you [01:06:00] know, religious people that I was like also not aligned with.
Um, but it was so moving. And then once I really saw that, that it was just, you know, that the mind just, you know, throws
Eva: yeah, and it's not, it's almost not personal, you know? That's what people, it's, you know, when I finally got what people, what all my meditation teachers were saying, when they're like, it's not personal, it's just doing it. I'm like, whoa. I'm like, whoa. It's not personal. Whoa. Yeah.
Simona: I know, like, how could it be? And it's like, yeah, it just like scoops into the, well of all the information that like ai, like what's what it's been given. And it just randomly, okay, this seems close enough and like it,
Eva: Yeah.
Simona: and like, are you gonna catch it? You know? And I realized like, oh, I don't have to catch any of this.
And then, and then I stopped for a period. And then of course I was like, oh my God. I'm like so peaceful. My body is healing. I'm gonna be like this forever. [01:07:00]
Kyley: Right now I've this, now I've reached the place where change stops happening.
Eva: Yeah. And you're like, and
I've totally figured it out. Yeah.
Simona: Yeah. I was like, I'm having these like wild visions. I feel, you know, I was having these, uh, really interesting, um, experiences through the day where I would like, feel my body, but then I would feel like my leg, and then my leg would feel like an extension genuinely of the earth, and it would feel gigantic.
But, so it was like, there's no separation between my body and the earth body or like, I would be sitting with a tree and then I, it's like hard to explain, but it was like really clear of my body. But then like literally my body was also that body. And then it would be, and or I would be sitting and I'd be myself, but I'd also be like a mountain.
And I was like,
Eva: Hmm. Mm-hmm.
Simona: how is this possible to, you know, for this to exist? Because I [01:08:00] had inquiry, like I wasn't scared of it. I was just, again, I like chose to like let whatever thoughts come up, but like not interested in any of them and just to keep, to keep moving. And so, I mean, there's like so much more that I can say in terms of, you know, how I moved through chronic illness was also doing work with fear and exposure and neuroplasticity.
And there was a lot of action in doing. But the heart of what happened through it was this piece of, of, um, coming to know myself and like reclaiming that like, oh, since I was a little girl, like I'm devoted to the mystery to God, you know, whatever we wanna call it. And, and like that, that is, that's at the heart of my life now forever.
And that to me feels like, yes, that. That's what I've always wanted
and I'm [01:09:00] finally, I'm finally in that role more.
Eva: Hmm. My god's so beautiful. Simona,
Simona: Yeah.
Eva: thank
you.
for sharing. Just like such a deeply intimate, you know, experience with us and hundreds of other people. Maybe.
Simona: Yeah,
Eva: curious if, do you, have you found that experiencing that kind of alignment has informed your or had an impact on your health at all? Do those things
go hand in hand?
Simona: yeah,
for sure. It, it, once I was there and, and then part of it was just like not even being interested in thinking about my health anymore because there was, you know, and I had found Tom around that time and, and so a lot of the way he does the work really helped me with like these bigger picture thoughts and there became just this willingness of.
Like just this trust that was like, if, and I know this sounds like such bullshit, [01:10:00] so it's, it's, I, it is hard to share my story because I'm also such a, like a realist that I'm like, Ugh, don't even like saying these.
Kyley: this deeply.
Eva: in the right place. I mean, this is the problem that we have with our podcast. We're always like, okay, we, we know this is true and these are the things that we feel, but also we're practical people and we're earth science. And so like, does this even make sense? You know?
Simona: Yes,
Kyley: And trying to take these like mystical, like these, like knowings, right? Where just
something like all of a sudden lives in your body that didn't live there before around like how you experienced the world. There's no way to put that into words without it sounding like trite or obnoxious or like,
or just like weird, right?
It's just like, it's, it's an impossible
thing. And also, yeah, so, um.
Eva: So it's like the tension of like. Keeping it close to our heart, you know, because
sometimes sharing it can feel like it makes it less sacred while also, and then wanting to share, but also just letting it be cringe and just let it
fucking burn.
Simona: [01:11:00] Yes. I love that. Yeah. And for me it really was this, like, eventually I was like, if this is what, if life wants, like whatever is happening, I, I really ended up trusting is like exactly what is right for me and life. And, and so if it includes me being sick, great. If it's not great, like truly, um, to trust the change and to trust life exactly as it is.
So then I do think through having that position and the symptoms, you know, and the exposure work and just going out and living life again and not avoiding and restricting and not being caught in the future, thoughts, then all of my symptoms ended up going away. And the, this like steadiness of, you know, somewhere in me, the steadiness of present state, but like, it happens to all of us, you know, it comes and goes and comes and goes and it, it's different.
And then, and then I've had to find [01:12:00] my things that help to reconnect it. So, you know, doing the work of Byron Katie sitting with Tom, who seems to like, have that happening like pretty consistently on some level
in him. And so it was like those things helped for my nervous system and like my resonance to be like, right, like, you know, coming back to that 0.0 where the fool of like, you know, the blank page.
And so it's been, and I've lost that too, you know, sometimes, but even more so in this, in the past few months, I'm like, oh, I actually like. I want this to be the heart of my life, and so therefore I need to put it at the heart of my life in more significant ways. Um, and that's been the gift of the illness for me.
Eva: Mm.
Simona: Yeah.
Eva: Oh my goodness. Okay, we're coming up to our end of time and I still have like a million questions and so [01:13:00] like I am, I'm gonna ask, I do, the question that's coming to mind is, what would you say to people, people being me
Simona: Mm-hmm.
Eva: when you do resist the illness? Meaning you feel the fucking frustration and the, and, um. Yeah. And then, and then having the story of like, oh, but I'm just supposed to let go. And then not being able to let go. And so then you get like angry at, so I, I
think what you're speaking to is actually true. There's something so beautiful about just being with all that is, but also balancing that with not trying to live
beyond our evolution, you know,
before, like trying to do that before we were actually able to do that.
And what advice, or, I don't know, wisdom do you have for, for what happens when we are in resistance?
Simona: Yeah, yeah. I'm such a believer in like the way is the way, so, you know, whatever is in our nervous system is correct and uh, is the next step forward. And for me and everyone that I work [01:14:00] with, a big part of that is both like resistance and rage and frustration, and I think sometimes. The illness is a vehicle for all of the frustration that we have about life and our family and what's happened to us and what's happening in the world.
And I mean, there's so many layers of what I think reverberates through us. Um, I think we also kind of like constellate, like the bigger picture of the world through our bodies. And people are exhausted and angry and frustrated and we're connected to that. I mean, it's not just our body. It's everyone's body.
And so what I tell people that I work with is like, what is here? And that is the heart of it. That is the god of it. We give it our full devotion. So if what is here. Is crazy intrusive thoughts,
then like, okay, like those are, that's our devotional space. We, we believe, we [01:15:00] believe that that's where we can put our focus.
If it's frustration, if it's resistance, if it's exhaustion,
it's like, I'm gonna give you, like, I'm gonna bow, you know, to the feet of that. And then, and then like, just like how we started, it's gonna change, right? If we just fully let ourselves be with it and in it, and like, I'm willing to be frustrated and angry for the rest of my life if that is actually what me and my lineage in this world needs of me.
And like I'm gonna do it and I'm gonna give it a hundred percent. And I find that when we do that. Then it moves down the river, you know, it moves down our river and then change comes and something happens. But we have to keep trusting it. And sometimes it's gross, nasty, crappy things that come down the river.
Eva: Mm-hmm.
Simona: And it's like, okay, can this be my devotion too? Like can [01:16:00] this belong? Can this be love to, um, and it, you know, and that's not a simple practice. And for me it's still a practice. Something bad happens to my kids or whatever. And it's not about not taking action, but it's about, I'm not resisting that this is happening.
I'm gonna feel it fully. And then from that place, is there an impulse for movement?
Eva: Oh, so good. Wow. Wow, wow, wow. Okay. Uh, Kyley, were you gonna say something?
Kyley: I have to say there's like something real time is a real time revelation and gift that's happening in this conversation that also has the like, flavor of many revelations, which is like, I already knew that. Right. But, um, you know, you were talking about, like you've said that you know. Being devoted to mystery.
Like you've always been someone who's devoted to mystery, which feels very true to me as well. Like I've also had lots of experiences as a kid and, um, and like, oh yeah, this is, this is it this right here? Is it [01:17:00] right? Um, and, and then you said like you've, that's what you've always wanted. And now more than ever, you're in that role.
And, and I really resonated with that. Like, oh yeah, that's, that is me. And then I immediately felt how much fear I have that if I, if I really put that in the center, I will hurt my children.
Like I have
tears in my eyes as I'm saying this, like that. If I were to let myself slip even further into devotion of being in the mystery and in the presence and in the surrender, that I wouldn't pay the price, but my children would.
Eva: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
Kyley: So that feels just really like a. I just have like so much like love to see, like, oh, of course mama. Of course,
you know, of course you would do anything for your children. So of course you will keep yourself out of divine, like radical deprived presence if you think that's the sacrifice your children need.
Of course.
Simona: Yeah.
Kyley: Uh,[01:18:00]
Eva: I mean, seeing that I think itself seeing it is, is is very loving experience and I think there's this compassion coming in and I also think that then, then that becomes an opportunity like, you know, for inquiry to really question like, is that. It's at that thought. It's like going back to exactly where we started, like it, when we, when we hold onto that, it actually causes more confusion and more discord and more just yuckiness.
And then actually when we like, and I think when we let go, but what helps us let go is the inquiry, right, is the questioning, and then we can let go and then you're gonna see how everything actually just falls right into place. But yeah,
Kyley: yeah.
Instead of the que, I think the question that I've been like kind of living in. For a number of months in particular, probably this past year has been this kind of like, why, like why can't you step, like there's a step or you can see the step, why can't you take this step? You know?
And even as I've had tried to have a lot of compassion, there has been some real, like anger and frustration, just like take the fucking step, right? And right now I'm just feeling like so much like [01:19:00] gratitude. Like, oh, of course you're not gonna take a step that you think is gonna hurt your kids. Of course. Like right, I will never take a step that I know is gonna hurt my kids if I can, if I can stop myself. So I just wanna like, swim in that today and watch like what, what becomes possible in the seeing that.
But thank you. I can feel something really beautiful and generous, like wrapping itself around this frustration that I've kind of been sitting with for a minute. So.
Simona: I love that. Yeah. I, that's, I relate to that and I think, you know, so often as we like come into a more of the truth and more of alignment, it, it's, you know, that like softball machine, like digs deep and like find the gem of like, are you sure? You know, and it's like, well what about this one? What if you ruin your kids' life?
What if you, you know, end your marriage? What if you dah, [01:20:00] dah, dah?
Eva: Well,
Simona: Yeah.
Eva: go ahead.
Simona: Yeah. And it's just that, again, that practice of, that, for me, it came back to that willingness. And of course I'm like not interested in ruining my kids' lives, but one of the ways I learned to speak with my mind was like, yeah, I'm, I'm willing.
And like it's, you know, from Tom, it's like, let's see,
let's see if that happens. And what I've noticed in my own life, and, and it's come and gone out of the center of my life and just recently have, I had like a lot of things happen that were changed and chaotic that it, it found its way back into the center and it's, it's only been good for my kids.
But what I will say is that again, we have an idea of like, we need to do something. And now what I'm seeing is like, oh, life put this back in the center for me and I can, you know, we can also just be open and it, it will find its way back in,[01:21:00]
I think.
Eva: Yeah.
Kyley: Right. Yeah. We, once again, we are not actually the doer.
Eva: Yeah.
Kyley: It's So cute that we keep thinking we are
Eva: goodness,
Kyley: like, life is like you're the girl,
Eva: Yeah. Yeah.
Kyley: but it's that you think you have to.
Eva: But I, I wanna add to what you're saying about the softball thing, because I think the other thing that, um. Tom has said, which I have found to be true, is that like the closer we get to freedom, or the closer we get to truth, like the louder the fear is gonna come up. Just like, just to, you know, just be like, it's gonna pick up the thing that you, that is just gonna pull you out of freedom.
You know?
And it's like, and I think it's good to know that that is the dynamic. It's like it's a sign that you're just getting closer and closer to truth. And so it's gonna pick up the bigger and bigger shinier, like stickier baseball to throw at you. And it's like this idea of like, well, there's only one way to find out.
It's, you gotta call the mind's bluff. And I think I've seen you do that, Simon. And I think it takes courage though. It's [01:22:00] like, it can be playful, by the way. It can be really fucking playful once you see the dynamic and you're like, okay, I'm on you. Like, let's just check it out. But there's also an element of courage there.
It'd be like, well, there's only one way to find out. And that is, I think,
the adventurous way,
you
Simona: Mm-hmm.
Yeah.
I so agree with that. And I like that you said that it can be playful and I think that the, I forget that sometimes, and I think that's like the best version of
Eva: Yeah.
Yeah. Yeah.
Okay. Okay. So we are at time. Okay, Simona, we're gonna do like a super quick version of joy, but before we do that, um, how can people find you and work with you? I mean, this is, I just the tip of the iceberg, I feel like, of what you offer in terms of like your somatic practices and your medi being a Yeah, all of it.
Meditation teacher. Um, please.
Simona: Yes. Um, so on Instagram at turning towards and turning towards me, um, and yeah, I offer a whole bunch of, I have an online [01:23:00] community. I have a course called Befriending Fear that really walks people through the steps that I took through my chronic illness journey with fear being at the center of it. Um, and lots more, like you said, can be found there.
Eva: Yay. Okay, so we'll do a quick round of joy. I'm gonna make, I'm gonna start, jump, jump, dive, dive in, make it quick. Um, what's been really me joy is being like a Sherpa for people to get here to this Brazil retreat, which is starting next week, and being of service in a way that also just feels so fun and easy and joyful for me.
I'm like, this is amazing. Um, when you find, you know, those, those how, those things kind of come together in a really nice piece. So that's just bringing me, it's been so fun for me. Yeah. Um, Simona, what about you? Can I throw it to you? Yeah,
Simona: Uh, I feel a lot of joy being here with both of you and also just like hearing Eva talk about the retreat and thinking of, [01:24:00] I haven't gone to that one, but I go to the one in Quebec and just thinking the, of the amount of like love that begins to emerge through the week. It's like we all are like just melted and crying and like open hearted and like.
Eva: yeah.
Simona: Oh my gosh. So thinking of that and having some of that memory, um, is bringing me joy and being able to share some of these, um, like spiritual experiences. I can feel, uh, such joy in this version and, and so happy that I got to, to speak with both of you.
Eva: Yay.
Kyley: Um, what's bringing me joy is that it's feels like spring. I've had to introduce one to my children, the concept of fall, spring. I'm like, look, everybody, you live in New England, so do, you know, prepare yourselves? And this week I've had multiple ice coffees. I've driven with the windows down. I haven't worn a coach. [01:25:00] Um, and every single time this weather comes, I'm like, oh, oh, And there's no problem. In my whole life, everything that I thought was just like, you know, mountains of whatever, emotional slut. Like I just needed sun and warm weather. We're good. Now we're good.
Eva: Yes.
Kyley: So I'm just like, relishing that.
Eva: so happy for you and everyone on the East Coast, man, getting some of that good weather. 'cause it makes a huge difference for my mental health
Kyley: Yeah,
And this winter has not, it's been, it has been wintry.
Simona: Yes.
Eva: Yeah.
Kyley: winter, so I'm really delighted by the warmth and the sun and the birds and the ice coffee.
Eva: You know what
Kyley: Thank you Simona, so much. This is really, really, really a gift.
Eva: Yeah,
Simona: my pleasure. Thank you both. Oh my gosh.