After years of unravelling inherited belief systems, questioning authority, and prying spirituality out of the grip of shame, she finds herself back in conversation with Catholicism.
After years of unravelling inherited belief systems, questioning authority, and prying spirituality out of the grip of shame, she finds herself back in conversation with Catholicism.
What we cover in this episode:
✝️ Kyley’s complicated return to Catholicism and what “return” actually means here
🕯️ Ritual, repetition, and why the body remembers faith even when the mind resists it
🌀 Leaving a religion without leaving the parts that shaped you
🔥 Spiritual rebellion, authority wounds, and the long shadow of shame
🤍 Grief, belonging, and the tenderness of being spiritually homeless
🗝️ Letting spirituality be messy, unresolved, and deeply personal
If you’ve ever felt spiritually in-between or you’ve ever missed something you thought you were done with, this one's for you!
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Eva and Kyley-1
Eva: [00:00:00] , hey everyone, it's Eva.
Kyley: and it's Kylie
Eva: Welcome back to Hello Universe and Happy 2 20 26.
Kyley: is off to a rousing start.
Eva: Yeah. I know. Woo. Yep. I, I can't say, I can't say I'm feeling the best based on what's going on in this world, but I'm really happy to be here with you and with all. of everybody here in our little community. So there's that.
Kyley: you all.
Eva: Well, why don't you share with our group, like what's been going on in your life? This thing that I, I have found to be pretty shocking and I'm sure you, it's been a surprise to you as well. [00:01:00]
Kyley: Uh, yeah, everybody, uh, I started going to, I'm Catholic again.
Um,
Eva: more. Because when Kylie told me that she started going to mass, I literally was like, my head just like could not, um. Still understand, 'cause I didn't, there's, there's a lot, there's a lot of history there for you with, with religion and then coming into spirituality and, um, for a lot of people of our guests who come onto the show, you know, this, this is the thematic theme of how religion has often fucked us up in some way, or it's been really confusing and some people have found their way back.
And, um, Yeah.
I'm curious to know what's been your path.
Kyley: Okay, so for context, I grew up Catholic. Uh, my grandmother was very Catholic, like had 10 kids. My mom's youngest of the 10 kids, and so.
I grew up like it was [00:02:00] a, I, you know, I went through the whole baptism confirmation thing and we went to church a lot as a kid. Like my mom was not Catholic the way that my grandmother was, but I went to church very frequently. Um, and
Eva: was it a part of your life? It, what would you say?
Kyley: yes, absolutely.
Eva: like church community. Like how much of a part of your life? And this is very foreign to me by the way. 'cause as you know, and I don't know if listeners know, I don't know Jack shit about church. Like, it just was like so far from my own reality and I'm very, I feel like grateful
Kyley: about before, how Yeah, we've talked before. It's interesting. We're both these super spiritual people and I grew up like pretty steeped in, in religion, and you grew up with like no religion.
Eva: Zero to the point where I feel very ignorant actually about things that are said in the Bible and like quotes and people, people reference, people who like that I feel like I should know, but I don't know anything about. So yeah, how, how much of a part of a life,
Kyley: Yeah, I mean, like, it, it, it would ebb and flow, like, you know, there were seasons where we went, like [00:03:00] every single Sunday we would go to mass, and then there were seasons where we, it wasn't, you know, we didn't go. But I spent a, it was a pretty, it was a pretty solid staple of my childhood. Um, and like my grandmother, you know, I'm like.
Post statues and pictures and um,
Eva: Mm-hmm.
Kyley: and the thing about being Catholic, and I've heard people who are Jewish say this way too, say this too. There's, there's, there's an element of it that's very cultural. So like, even if you're not going, even if you don't actually go to church very often, it's like, is a very cultural experience.
And so I have always felt very culturally Catholic. Because I was kind of steeped in it. And also it was like the culture of my whole family. Even though of, of my 10, of my 10 aunts and uncles, nobody stuck around in the church, my poor grandmother. But what I have also come to realize as I've gotten older is like my grandmother was also a mystic.
Meaning she had like very profound found experiences of [00:04:00] connection and connectivity.
So what I've come to recognize is that my grandmother was also a mystic, which is to say that she had very profound experiences and I think my aunts and uncles largely didn't have that experience. So they were like, what the hell?
This place is just like super toxic and dark and creepy and like, well, you know, they like never really, they like kind of made fun of my grandmother a lot for her being so religious. Um, but I know from conversations that we've had both before she died and after she died, um, like that, she. Like myself has, like, it's a very experiential thing to be, you know, like for her, right?
It wasn't intellectual, it was very experiential. And um, and she was very devoted to the blessed mother in particular, um, Jesus' mom. And, um, anyways, so like that was my background. I grew up that way. My mom did this really, really cool thing where every time we would leave church, she would like always ask my brother and I, what did you think of the sermon?[00:05:00]
in Catholic mass, the whole thing is like, kind of like the Vatican tells you what's gonna happen in every part of church, but the sermon is where the priest like does his own thing. And my mom would always ask us, what did you think of the sermon on the drive home? Which was like 10 minute, 15 minute drive home.
And my brother has no recollection of this, but it was really, really formative for me because I was this like intensely like little witchy spiritual kid. And so these, when she would ask it, like gave me permission. To make it my own, which was my mom. The thing my mom hated about church growing up was that she just, she didn't feel like she had any ownership of it.
Eva: Yeah. Doctrine, yeah. Is how it's how it goes. Yeah. Mm-hmm.
Kyley: so she invited us into like, having these conversations and they were just really like, you know, did you like it? Did you disagree? Would you agree? Did you disagree? So that was super cool. Um, and like formative. Anyway, long story short, I go very, very Catholic when I was in high school, like.
To the point that my, like I joked, like that was my teenage rebellion, was that I went to church all the [00:06:00] time and my family was like, do we need to stage an intervention?
Eva: Wait, wait, wait, wait. You got more Catholic in high school? I do think I remember hearing about this, but now that I'm hearing about it again, I'm like, wait, how what? Like
Kyley: by myself, by myself as a teenager, I went to church every single Sunday. My family was like, what the fuck is going on?
Eva: What was going on?
Kyley: I mean, it was like, it was me being me, right? Which is just like, I have this like. You know, I have, I have this thing where I experienced our connectedness and I could feel it there, right?
Eva: So you felt, so you experienced it there. even? Yeah. Even. Mm-hmm.
Kyley: Um, and I was like part of this like youth group community that was like very vibrant and um, and I think. I have memories of being like eight years old laying in my bed and talking to the Virgin Mayor and being like, okay, I'm gonna ask you some questions and if the answer's yes, make my left foot tingle.
And if the answer's no, make my right
Eva: Yes. Oh my God, yes. Yes, yes. I, I know exactly what you mean. Yes.
Kyley: Yeah. [00:07:00] Yeah. So, um, anyways. Fast forward, you know, I was like, very like, and the thing about, you know, the thing about Catholicism where that could just true most, most religions is there's like a couple sections of it. There's the experience of like, you know, being, you know, in deep connection to source.
There's the intellectual, like these are the rules that we believe, and then there's like the political stuff, you know, like Catholics being pro, uh, you know, anti-choice pro-life and like. We glom all those together because they are glommed together, right? And, and there's like tons of toxic, painful shit that comes along with that.
And also that seed of experiential was like always true for me. And so when I was a teenager. I was like, oh, like this. Like being against gay marriage thing. Like fuck off. 'cause I'm having this like really like, I just was like, I don't agree with that. Obviously women could be priests. You're a bunch of idiots, but I'm having this profound connection and experience and it's worth [00:08:00] it for that.
And then when I was in college and in my twenties, it stopped being like, that just stopped working for me. Right? Like it was like the political. Gender aspects were too acute for me to feel. And also this whole sin conversation was like too acute and like fucked up for me to feel it. Like how, you know, it got in the way.
So then I was like, okay, I church started to feel like kinda a dead place and I was like, okay, thanks. It's been real. Bye. It's
Eva: Yep. Mm-hmm. Yep.
Kyley: um, and.
Eva: And I, and.
I've also heard you reference before, um, you know, this whole sin thing, but I think this comes with religion, Catholicism, also maybe just culture, even just being Asian. This, the, the toxic, um, things that you internalized also from your experience of growing
Kyley: Yeah,
Eva: Right. Which I, I'm assuming that became clear to you as you maybe as you got to college. Like when, when did, when were you starting to see through it and you were like, this is actually really. Um, painful.
Kyley: [00:09:00] Here's the thing that's funny is like because of the way my mom gave me access to this, which was like steeped in like ask questions, be curious. I don't think that I internalized as much bullshit as like there isn't, I think there is an ancestral baggage that comes with being Irish Catholic and I certainly have my flavor of that, but I.
I didn't take hook, line and sinker the things that church was telling me were true to be true. And that's to my mom's credit. So I got to have this like profound sense of like experience and connection. But then I also had, like, I had a sense of agency within it that I think a lot of, especially kids who grew up religious, don't get.
Eva: Mm-hmm.
Kyley: So for example, there's this line in Catholic mass. That says, um, Lord, I am not worthy to re, this is like part of Catholic mass. Is this like part where you say certain things out loud and one is, Lord, I am not worthy to receive. You only say the word and I shall be healed. And I was like nine years old and I [00:10:00] was like, you, you made me.
So if I'm not worthy, that sounds like a you problem. And I'm not saying that.
Eva: Yes, I love little 9-year-old rebellious Kylie, but like, but, but even then, were you like, I don't agree with that, but did it piss you off? You know, like were there things about the experience that.
that pissed you off because you're like, I just don't think this is right.
Kyley: Yes, but also because my mom like encouraged critical thinking. I felt really proud of myself. So that moment where I was like, this is dumb and I'm not saying it, I remember feeling like, and this is to my credit, right? So I didn't feel like, and fuck you, I hate this whole system because I could go tell my mom like, Hey, guess what?
How cool am I? I'm not gonna say the dumb part. And she was
Eva: Yeah. You were, yeah. You weren't like, a victim to Yeah. To the system. Yeah. And, and in fact, you found like empowerment in it, it sounds like, which is going back to what You were saying, like the formative, why it was so formative,
Kyley: Yes. Yeah. Yeah. And so like this, you know, there's tons of [00:11:00] like, I mean, I think, but that's not to say that there weren't things that I subconsciously absorbed, but I just think I had a lot more autonomy. In the experience of it, 'cause of the way that my mom raised me in it. And so when I got to co and so when I got to college and it just like started to feel hollow, it was just like all the like sin stuff and all the political stuff.
And at the time also I was like the, the um, like sex abuse crisis was like a very big part of the news cycle around Catholicism, right? And I was in Boston, like, I just was like, I can't, I can't with
Eva: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
Kyley: And so it was just time to be done. Um, and I have not. I, I, and, and for most of my experience, if I've gone back into a mass, like for someone's wedding, or mostly for weddings, occasionally for funerals, I'm just like, oh, this place is fucking weird.
Like, when I have to go to like weddings that are a mass, I'm just like, oh, oh God, everybody, I hate all of you. You know? Like, I hate this stuff. Um.
Eva: Mm-hmm. [00:12:00]
Kyley: I have maintained, I have like six statues of the Virgin Mary of my house, and I always have, so like we've, we've stayed tight. She's, she's my, she's
Eva: She's your homie. Yep.
Kyley: Um, well then all of a sudden in, so, okay, so that's the context, that's the backstory. And I have like, not looked back, right? Like, I like going every once in a while I'd go like, sit in like an empty church because like there's no, you know, that's just you. But generally
Eva: Not only have you not looked back, but then you took a deep fucking dive into the whole like being a fucking witch and like be a cult and like whatever you wanna call it. Just like becoming the
Kyley: Hanging out with like pantheons of dark pantheon of dark goddesses.
Eva: exactly. And one of the most embodied spiritual people who I know who also fucks with magic on the regular, you know.
Kyley: Right, right. Um, which I will say Catholicism set me up for, because.
Eva: Yeah.
Kyley: The transition from a pantheon of saints to a pantheon of dark goddesses is like not [00:13:00] that far of a
Eva: Yeah, yeah,
Kyley: like Catholic mass is so ritualized that like, it's just witchcraft. It's just fucking witchcraft. Right. And so
Eva: I love that
Kyley: it's again,
Eva: I, I don't, I don't hear people speak about Catholicism like that but I, but I, I absolutely see and hear what you mean.
Kyley: yeah. Right. It's like, it's not a, it's, it trained me well for who I was. You know, who I have become.
Eva: Mm-hmm.
Kyley: And so, um, yeah, so I have not, I have, I have, I love my Catholic identity. Like I love my identity as someone who grew up Catholic because it does just inform and I am very much a product of like Irish American Catholic experience.
And so I feel a connection to it because I feel how much it has informed me. But I have had no, had not even thought to like return at all. And then I started feeling this like real itch to start. I started getting those hits to pray the rosary, and I was like, nuh, nope, [00:14:00] Nope. Like I just was like, I was talking to my grandmother in particular who died a long time ago, and I was like, Nana, back off.
You know?
Eva: I remember when this started happening and you were like, what is going on? It was just like this weird, like it, it was, you were very surprised by it.
Kyley: He was surprised by it. And so there was one night that I just, it just kept like coming, like gently coming in and um, and I was like, okay, well, you know, what, if I, if you want me to pray the rosary, if I find a pair of rosary beads in my house, I'll pray the rosaries, because that's the kind of former Catholic that I am, that there's just loose rosary beads in the house, you know?
Eva: Mm-hmm.
Kyley: And sure enough, that night I put Desi to bed and what is sitting on the fucking floor next to his bed, but this like shitty little pair of plastic rosary beads that they sometimes give away for free at the church. And I was like, okay.
Eva: Wow.
Kyley: All right.
Eva: Yeah. But I also love, sorry, I just, the reminder of like the magic of that or the [00:15:00] Roman of like, yeah. If you show me that that's what you want, Jen, just let me know. Yeah.
I, I thank you for that reminder too of just allowing yourself to be shown.
Kyley: Yes. Right. And also, I mean, I do love, I also love a religion with source that like has room for the saltiness. You know, that's like, oh my God, for real. This is, this is, this is the journey everybody. And so, as I put Desi to bed that night, like as I was like sitting there waiting for him to fall asleep, um, like just pray the rosary on these silly little plastic beads and around this same time.
I was reading a book that I liked, um, called I think Take Back the Magic. Anyways, it's a great book, um, called by Purita Finn. And then I saw that she had written a book about the Rosary, and she is not Catholic. She's like, it's this like, um, she's actually Sophie Strand's mother, which I found out after I'd read the book.
Our former podcast guest. Amazing, brilliant Sophie Strand. Anyway, it's her mom wrote this, wrote [00:16:00] this book,
Eva: Oh, wow.
Kyley: her, her and her, actually both her parents, her mom and her dad. And it's called like the way of the rosary or something. They are not Catholic. It's this like ecofeminist dialogue about their relationship with like stumbling into praying the rosary.
And uh, and I saw that they'd written this book and I was like, okay, I, I just could feel the ping. I'm like, okay, I'm curious. I'll read. And it's not even necessarily like a great book. I think Take Back The Magic is a Better book, which is the other pretty Finn book. I read the whole, I read like devoured this
Eva: Mm-hmm.
Kyley: way.
That was like, you know, like if you are low on iron and someone feeds you a steak, there was just like something I like and then I was like waking up in the middle of the night at like two o'clock in the morning and just being like, oh, I gotta pray the rosary. Like it was, it was like, just felt so like, so strong of just like, and I should also say.
But nobody's listening to this. So the, the rosary is like a set of prayers that you say [00:17:00] on certain beads and diff, each bead has a different prayer. There's kind of three main ones, but the main prayer that you say is the Hail Mary, which, um, I, when I was a kid, when I would be, whenever I would get scared, like, you know, you're a kid at night and you can't fall asleep.
I would just say the Hail Mary over and over and over again. Like, that's like always been, it's always been my back, even when I was like 35.
Eva: what? What's the prayer?
Kyley: So the prayer is, uh, uh, hail Mary, full of grace. The Lord is with thee. Blessed art thou among women, and blessed is the fruit of thy womb Jesus. Holy Mary, mother of God, pray for us.
This is where the Catholic church has inserted sinners. I just don't say that word 'cause
Eva: Mm. Mm-hmm.
Kyley: pray for us now and at the hour of our death.
Eva: Mm-hmm.
Kyley: And so you like say it 10 times, you say that prayer 10 times in a row and then you say a different one, then you say it 10 times in a row and the whole thing takes, you know, I don't know, 15 minutes or something.
Um, uh, maybe a little longer, but, um, I, yeah, I did wanna name, I [00:18:00] don't say the word, I don't have, I haven't said sinners in a prayer for a long time.
Eva: Yeah. Mm-hmm.
Kyley: and.
Eva: do love that the reminder of like, this is how it works. You get to make it yours.
Kyley: Yes, yes. So, um, but yeah, it was like, it was like, I haven't had an experience that intense in a while where it was just like. I it that my intellect was very confused by right where I, yeah. Again, I'm like waking up at two in the morning. I was like, oh, I just have to pray the rosary. And then I would go back to sleep and I was like, and I was feeling this like sense of like intense calm and like rightness in, in it.
And part of, part of it, part of this book in particular talks about, which I fully agree, is that like the figure of the Virgin Mary. Is just like one figment of like the divine goddess that is like all that is source, right? And that they're, they're, what they talk about in this, in this [00:19:00] book, which I think is very liberating for me, is like praying the rosary is just like one way to reconnect with like Goddess source and like, you know, sourced as goddess energy.
And this is just like one portal in and, um. I like felt the truth. I, I've always felt the truth of that. That's, that's why I love, um, Mary. Anyway, so then I was like, okay, I guess I pray the rosary. I bought a pair that wasn't stupid in plastic.
Eva: Yeah.
Kyley: I started like carrying my pocket like all the time and the whole time I'm like, is this really happening?
Like, am I really like, okay, so then,
Eva: Wait, I'm sorry. Another question. So as you were doing this, did you feel more connected to your grandmother?
Kyley: Um, yes,
Eva: Because I, I guess I al I got, I, I, my assumption was like the nudge was coming from her in some way.
Kyley: It, it, you would think that, but it actually didn't feel like it was coming from her. It felt like, 'cause I always feel pretty connected to her. It
Eva: Yeah, I ask because I know [00:20:00] she has a strong presence in your life still, you know?
Kyley: Yeah, it felt more like, it was like goddess, you know, goddess Mama being like, um, hi, tap, tap.
Eva: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
Kyley: we need, we need a stronger channel and this is how, this is how you have access to it.
Um, and then I could just kind of feel my grandmother being like, uh, present and very happy about it.
Eva: Mm-hmm.
Kyley: Right. Um. So anyway, then, so, so that was interesting and, and surprising and but also could be, it was like secret, right? Like, I mean, I told people, but there's a way that it's just like me before I go to bed saying these little old lady prayers.
And then I started feeling this urge to go to church and I was like,
Eva: Well, you're like, what the fuck? I mean, when's the last time you've been to church? Like, like like [00:21:00] sincerely?
Kyley: like not because it was like a mass or a fu, like a wedding or a funeral. 24.
Eva: Yeah. And you're, yeah. So 20 like, yeah.
18 years. Like, it's just interesting because, [00:22:00] um. That's like a weird thing, like a desire to wanna go back to church. I don't, I what I mean is like, that's not insignificant suddenly. Yeah.
That, that's just, I mean, it's, it's, or I don't think anything is any sort of like, pull towards something that we thought was lost in our lives or was no longer is insignificant.
There's, I think it's a, it can be like a sacred and um, surprising experience.
Kyley: Well, and especially when it's something that like, like I haven't. Thought about, I haven't. Right. It's not like I've been like, Ooh, I wonder if I'll ever become Catholic again. You know? So, um, it almost felt like a betrayal when I started feeling I was supposed to go to church. Like, I was like, What?
what?
Eva: Mm-hmm. Oh, that's interesting. Yeah. Mm-hmm.
Kyley: that's not the, that's not the storyline. I'm cool and different, and I have tattoos now.
Eva: [00:23:00] Oh, wait, okay. Wait. Can we talk about this? Because this is what I, this is, I think, to me like the real, I don't know what's the word I'm looking for? Like uplevel or like, when you've really come full circle, because there's no like story. It's like when, there have been so many times in my life where I've become the th where I am now.
The thing that. I thought I would dread or that like my 20-year-old self would like scoff at and instead I think it feeling shame in it. Actually. What I feel is the sense of. with myself, like I'm so comfortable with myself that I'm, it's not a betrayal of like my 20-year-old self. It's almost like my 20-year-old self didn't get it, and she needed to rebel because she was still finding herself, and I don't need to rebel anymore because rebellion, as you know, we've talked about before as just as much of a cage as you know.
As, as whatever the opposite of rebellion is, and it's like [00:24:00] there's a humility in this where I actually see now that I didn't, the younger me didn't get it, and now it's like coming into womanhood or like adulthood or whatever it is, and it's like, do you know what I'm saying?
Kyley: Yes, yes. I really love what you're saying. And my betrayal feeling wasn't that I was like betraying a younger version of me. I was actually feeling like betrayed by source. Not, not in a very acute way, but I was feeling betrayed by source that I was like, this is where you're taking me next, like. I've seen that show before.
Thank you very much. You know, we're here for like uncharted territory and spiritual adventures, like I don't wanna go to fucking church.
Eva: that's what I mean, like the humility of it. You know, there's like a, there's like a beautiful humility in that.
Kyley: Yes,
Eva: we don't resist it, and then we see like, oh, ha ha, the joke was on us. Like life had it figured out all along. Way better than our ego did.
Kyley: [00:25:00] Yes. A thousand percent. Yes,
Eva: Yeah. Mm-hmm.
Kyley: And I think, um, which is also, and like. You know how much I love to, like, laugh about all of this stuff. And so there also was even in the like, oh, come on guys. That's not where I go next. There was also something like very, like, I get the joke, you know what I mean? Like I, I'm, I'm in on the joke, you know, I, I,
Eva: Yeah, yeah.
Kyley: um,
Eva: Oh, I'm sure I could just see you chuckling the whole time.
Kyley: And so, so I kept feeling it and I lived like, you can walk to a church from my house. Like, it's like a three minute walk. And I could feel my grandmother being like, yeah, I know. You know, where she's like, I knew
Eva: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
Kyley: so I kept feeling to go to church could, and I was just like, mm-hmm.
No thanks, but no thanks. And there was even one day that I was like, I'm gonna go to, and then I was like. No, nevermind. Just kidding. I'm gonna go, you know, drink some coffee. And then, uh, we had a death in the family and the mass was Catholic. And, um, and my, and my son was [00:26:00] really into it. Like, he was like, he was like, I don't mean really into it.
Like it was obviously it was a funeral. He was sad, but I could see that he was like, he was curious and he was. He was having an experience being there. And um, and
Eva: that's interesting.
Kyley: yeah, and he was like asking me a lot of questions and, um, and then, so then the next week it came back and I was like, okay, okay, but you know, fine, I'll go.
And um, and I said to my son, I was like, Hey, do you, I'm gonna, I'm gonna, I'm gonna go to church. Do you wanna come with me? And he was like. Okay. And so the two of us walked down. He colors the whole time,
Eva: Mm-hmm.
Kyley: and
I thought it was gonna be a one time thing, right? I thought it was like, oh, I have to go to church. Like, like, like check.
Eva: Yeah. Mm-hmm.
Kyley: then I was like, oh, I go to church now.
Eva: Wait, what does that even mean? Like what does that even, that is such a [00:27:00] crazy thing to hear.
Kyley: I thought I would just go to church and it would just be like, there's some transmission you need or there's some like healing that would happen, or there'd be some like, yes, I have released any old resentments towards Catal, but I just thought it was just like, it was like a what?
Like a pit stop, you know? And then I went and I was like, oh no. Oh no, I have back.
Eva: Oh my God, it's hilarious. Wait, but tell me like, like what was, what happened between going back the first time and now having gone back a couple of times? Like what is, I mean, simply put, do you like it? I mean, I'm assuming you go back because you like it, you're enjoying it.
Kyley: Well, and I think what is, and I've what, one of the things I think is hard about being spiritual with religious fact, right? Like we just kinda agree the religions fact. But one of the things that I think is hard is about being spiritual but not religious is. You are not always held by anything. Like you are often the one who's doing the [00:28:00] holding, um, or, or you're held like, yeah.
Um, you are like, you are the one who holds your spiritual experiences together in a way,
Eva: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
Kyley: going to sit in church for an hour. I'm not doing any holding. I'm not, I'm not, I don't have to do anything. I just sit here and I feel things. The energy, it does an energy thing and I usually cry a little bit 'cause that doesn't take that much for me to, you know,
Eva: Mm-hmm.
Kyley: And then I go home and I feel, it feels like getting reiki, you know, like it feels like some, some cleansing energy has happened for me and I'm better off for it. And I didn't have to do anything. I didn't have to like.
Eva: Yep.
Kyley: I didn't even have to get myself into a meditative state. I didn't even have to hit, you know, like there's something about
Eva: There's like a container.
Kyley: yeah, it's exactly what I was gonna say.
Like I'm just like pouring myself into this thing for 50 minutes and then I go [00:29:00] home and there's something that feels really, really, really like deeply nourishing
Eva: Mm-hmm.
Kyley: that I didn't know if anything I thought that I would've missed, like. You know, Catholics, we know ritual, like we fucking know ritual, right?
And so, uh, my mom would always, my mom would always say like, Catholics do a nice funeral. That's like always her line, which is like such a funny thing to say. But what she means is just like, it's like deeply ritualized, right? Which. I was also very, that was also part of why I needed to leave because I was like, this is just a script that I'm following.
Right? Like, I'm like, I'm not required. Which is interesting, like 21-year-old Kylie was like, I'm not required for this and so I don't wanna be here anymore. Right? There's no space for me to be like, have agency or like I just sit, stand, Neil, repeat like fuck off. Which is very interesting because that is now the thing that actually feels
Eva: that you want. Yeah. That's supportive and deep. Yeah.
Kyley: Probably 'cause I've [00:30:00] developed these other spaces where I am like, you know, just the other day I was having a meditation and Lilith gave me an apple to eat. You know, like.
Eva: Right. Okay. No, but that's such a, I think to your point, yeah, it's all relative or subjective. It's like, it's like that wasn't the thing that was nur nurturing to you at the time. And then we experience some life and change, and then we find that that things is the thing that we really need right now.
It's just, it's just, it can be really. I'm very fascinated by that piece. I think because, um, I think practices in general are probably all really helpful in some way, but then how we use them and how they come into our, and when they come into our lives dictates a lot of how we relate to them. Does that make sense?
I don't know. I, I, I'm just always think that like there's, going back to this idea of like, there's no prescriptive thing and that's not what you wanted when you were younger. And then now. I can see how that's actually incredibly, deeply supportive for you. [00:31:00] Probably, Yeah.
Kyley: Yeah, I think it amuses me the, like, the arc of it and, you know, I still have a lot of baggage with Catholicism and, and I have also never stopped being fascinated with it. You know, like, um, I, like I've read a bunch of books about like early Christian history, you know, like I've always been really, there's a way that I'm like, oh, this, you never actually went away.
You know, like I can see, oh, you never actually went away. Um, and I think one of the other things that seems really interesting is being there, I think because I have. Been such a, like, devoted, you know, so been so devoted to my spirituality. I know the parts that are for me and I know the parts that aren't right.
Just like the little 9-year-old who's like, I'm not saying that, like, I still don't say that. I actually now say something else, right? I have my own thing that I say at that time. [00:32:00] Um, but like, it's very, very clear to me what parts are for me and what parts are not. And it, and so it also feels, it feels clean, for lack of a better word, even though I think religion is inherently.
You know, messed up in some, in a lot of ways, but it feels very clean because I know where I like, I know where my, well, like my, I know why I am there and what I'm there for and what I'm not interested in. And so instead of like a younger me who would like, wanna rail against something or like had opinions or like maybe was taking something on, it just feels like, Nope, I know what I'm here for and I know what I'm not.
And, and I trust my discernment, like my energetic discernment. Um,
Eva: [00:33:00] [00:34:00] yeah.
I think that speaks a lot about just growing up, like stepping into your own and having, um, it's, Yeah. I think it speaks a lot about you and, and. Also not having, or even either ha not having or having processed some of the trauma that can come from it. You know, because I think that's a lot of times people don't go back to religion or something and then, and then you realize that you've healed or you've moved through something and it doesn't trigger you the same way [00:35:00] anymore, and then you can just enjoy it.
You know?
Kyley: Yeah.
Eva: It's like, um, I actually have a lot of, I, I, I'm deeply, deeply fascinated and also have a lot of reverence for people who can hold. Spirituality and religion simultaneously. It's, it's all of life. And I think of human intelligence and like depth is about how can we hold two things that are true.
You know, two conflicting things are two seemingly opposing things that are um, that are hold them as true at the same time. Like that's all of life like.
Kyley: Well, and it's.
Eva: different things are true at the same time. And I think the more, I think like that nuance, like the more that we can like sit with that, the more we can work skillfully be with life.
And I think I'm very fascinated by that with people who can be with the messiness of religion and but experience it for, I think. Mm. I don't wanna say for what it, um, what it's meant to me. [00:36:00] I think what you're saying, there's three parts to it, right? There's like the political stuff, there's like the doctrine, and then there's the experience of it.
And I think that's, I, I think the experience I, and I'm, I'm, I'm kind of like mincing my words, but I think the experience of it is seem is what seems to be true anyway. And to hold both things at once, if that makes any sense.
Kyley: Yes, the experience is true and also the experience is not, not fraught or even as I'm having this experience of like, oh, it feels very right to be here, um, and hilarious and I am like very, getting something rich out of this experience. It's a part of the experience is also tending to where there's like resentment or hurt or confusion, for example.
Last time I went, the way my church is set up, see my church, that's what I say now. Anyway, there's like a center part and there's two side parts and then the left hand side part is where there's a statue of the blessed mother. So, you [00:37:00] know, that's always where I naturally, I'm like, so you know, I've gotta go.
I gotta go sit there next to my girl. And like, like the second time I went, I felt pulled to go sit there and I was like, oh yeah, of course. 'cause I wanna go sit next to Mary and I sit down and the way it's angled, as soon as you sit down next to her, you're looking like right at this giant crucifix. And I was like, I'm making a face, everybody.
Like, I was like, uh, no, no, no. And she was just like, and I could feel the blessed mother just being like, no, I piss at you here for a reason. Like the, you know, and I literally heard my son has something for you. And I, even as I'm saying that now, I'm like, oh, fuck off. Like I read, I'm just like, no, no, thank you.
Not interested in that. You know, like, I'm here for Mary. All you, all you, all you men fucked everything up. Jesus. Sorry, two people being terrible in your name. I don't care. Right. And I can feel like, even as I'm saying this, like I get, I feel hot, I feel angry, I feel bitter. Um, and I can feel how the assignment is too, like.
Be with, [00:38:00] to be with that like Right. And let myself bring that forward and let that be part of whatever this chapter is about. Um, and I can feel a lot of self-consciousness. Right? That's like, okay. I also don't want anyone to think that I'm gonna become some like crazy conservative loony bin. Right? Like I don't want anybody to think.
'cause there's also some people who go through this like spiritual experiences and they come back and they're like, jk, it's only Jesus. Everything else is made up in the devil.
Eva: Really
Kyley: yeah. Like that's a whole people who like.
Eva: like deep in the religious world enough to know, but, uh, I didn't know that was a thing to be self-conscious about, you know, like, because that's experience that happens.
Kyley: people, have like, there's people who like made like their entire business out of making like Oracle cards and Tar Tarot cards, and then they like have some conversion and they're like, jk, it's just Jesus. Everything else is terrible. I renounced everything that I made before.
Eva: Wow. Interesting.
Kyley: So that's not what's happening everybody.
I just need you to know.
Eva: Kylie wants you to know.
that she's not renouncing. Everything else is terrible. Um hmm. [00:39:00] Yeah, I mean, hmm.
Kyley: yeah, so anyways, the point that I was making is like to your point of like we get to go have the experience and also the experience is there is something fraught in the experience and that is also for me, and I can feel that that is for me, and I'm just like kind of side eyeing Jesus and just being like, I know it's a lot of fuckery happening in your name right now,
Eva: Uh.
Kyley: you know?
Eva: Yeah. Yep. And I think, uh, yeah, you are pulled toward this path for a reason, and so we'll see what you continue to find out. But I think it sounds like that that's the assignment to be like, look at all the things that are making you uncomfortable or bring up anger or whatever in you. And I feel like I'm kind of curious and excited to see what you're gonna uncover and learn for yourself.
Kyley: It, it also feels like, um. Uh oh, I'm a Catholic witch. That's what I've always been, that there [00:40:00] feels like, you know, obviously you and I both try to hold identity lightly, um, but I can feel this like, oh yeah, that's what I've always been like, I've always been a Catholic witch and now I know that.
Eva: Well, and now you know it and you can own it. You know, and you're comfortable with it and you
Kyley: I dunno how comfortable with it. We're like, we're, we're, we're, that that's the part that we're, we're, we're, we're uncomfortable because Right. I'm like, well then what does that mean? And all sorts of things. But, um, but
Eva: God, religion is just so weird. The identity stuff that comes with it, you know, like yeah.
Because there's just so much baggage around religion,
Kyley: Yeah, So,
Eva: which is why this whole, this whole conversation is about, it's about, 'cause it's like shocking.
Kyley: yeah.
Eva: To go back to these roots that Yeah. Some people, yeah.
I guess can be judgmental about.
Kyley: I mean, I am, I am, you know, I'm judgemental about them. So, uh, we [00:41:00] shall see more to come, but that's my like weird life update.
Eva: Yeah, So wait, what does this mean? I think we're coming to the end of this conversation, but I'm just curious like, what does this mean? Like it's a Sunday thing, like every Sunday, you go.
Kyley: every, I mean, I don't, like, Desi's birthday was on a Sunday and so I didn't, like, I just didn't, I didn't go that day. You know? It's not, but yeah, I basically,
Eva: And you go because you want to not, because you know, you're just like, when you feel called to and you're finding that every Sunday you're feeling pulled to go.
Kyley: yeah. And there's something, but yeah, there is, and I'll even, uh, God, yeah. There is so much in this like that I could keep talking about, but there is. There is also something that feels really nice about like, yeah, you just go every Sunday. It, like last Sunday I was just in a shit mood. Like I was just like, you know, like it was, I was in a rough mood.
Like my son and I were like bickering with each other. Like it was just like a rough, we had a rough moment and I was like, oh yeah, we, well now we go to church. Right? [00:42:00] And I like even said like, oh, you know, 'cause my son has been, and I give him the option every week where I'm like, do you want a gum? And he's always like.
Like, yeah, one week he didn't, 'cause he was having, I was like, you shouldn't come. You're having so much fun playing with your sister. You should keep doing this. Um, and then
Eva: That's so interesting that he really, that he wants to
Kyley: is, I mean, that's a whole nother thing that's very fascinating to me. But he's like, he is very much, and this is a kid who does not stop moving, right?
And he's like, yeah, I wanna go, like my, my, my daughter has no interest at all. I made her go one week.
Eva: so fascinating. Maybe he feels a place, a piece, a sense of calm there.
Kyley: I think he's essentially getting the like energy work part of it, right? He's like, there's something that's like, and so that day that we were like, we were bickering with each other and that was the one time I was, you have to go. I was like, you and I are not being nice to each other. Like that says me.
We need to go sit in church and we'll feel better afterwards, which we did. So,
Eva: yeah,
Kyley: um, yeah, but again, to me it's not when I was like, because yeah, they're just, there feels there. That's the, I think that's a big, it [00:43:00] feels like getting reiki for an hour. That's my like best explanation is like, it feels like I'm like getting something, some energy cleansing, reset to set me up for the next week.
So there's something really lovely about like, oh yeah, you go every Sunday. Not because you're gonna burn in hell if you miss one, but because like I also try to brush my teeth every day. It is just like, it feels like that kind of a, almost like a, yeah, like hygiene
Eva: yeah.
Yeah. Well, Kylie, the Catholic Witch, I will say that is a different identity. It's, it's a new, it's a new, so it's newish, so it's always been there, but you haven't claimed it that way. I haven't heard you describe yourself that way anyway. And so, uh, you heard it here first. Folks.
Kyley: Yeah. And I think the thing that feels, and again, who knows none, none of us know anything. But, um, I think what feels interesting is even when you just said, oh, it's new, and I was like, but it's not right. That's what it feels like. A
Eva: Well, the claiming of it, I think is [00:44:00] new or the identifying of It is, is new, and I feel like it's a step, you stepping into this identity or this version of yourself that you didn't have access to before. That was always, there, but you didn't claim it.
Kyley: yeah, like, you know, when you touch something that you're like, oh, this is, this is, this has always been true, but you couldn't see it or couldn't perceive it, or, but that's what it, it feels like, oh, this is what I've been, this is what I've been doing all along. And now I have like, like I have like a clearer picture of,
Eva: Yeah. But that's huge because a year ago you would not have said that. You would've
Kyley: months ago even. Right? Like if you told me in September that in a few months I was gonna be praying the rosary every day and going to church every day, I wish you guys could see my face. It's a real like stink face, you
Eva: Yeah. Stinking confused. Yeah, And surprised.
Kyley: yeah, yeah. So
Eva: Okay. thanks
for taking this on that journey. I'm curious
Kyley: share my [00:45:00] weird story.
Eva: Yeah. I'm curious what other people think, like other listeners who I'm sure have their own. Experience with religion. A lot of people who listen to this podcast come here because they're deeply spiritual, but also some of that comes from their, you know, in devout practices are just being, religion, being a part of their experience.
And so I think some people can relate and maybe are inspired and some people are like, fuck no. You know, you're probably gonna be able to get the range of, of, of, um, some people I think are curious and some people, I dunno who might be offended, who the fuck, who the fuck knows? Because that's what religion can do.
Kyley: Yeah. Yeah. I think one last thing I will say is that I think, I think it felt dangerous before. I can see now that it felt dangerous to engage because I felt like you motherfuckers, meaning like the Vatican are gonna like require me to believe certain things, right? That's the, that's the ass, right?
That like even in Catholic, this is the whole [00:46:00] part where you say we believe and you like breathe this whole thing, right? I don't say that part. Um uh, or I say parts of it. Um, uh, and I think, I think probably up until recently it actually felt. Dangerous to go back because I was, this is I think some unconscious, right, but like it's a power like religion is powerful, right?
It's charisma it like it compel, it asks you to believe and agree with and go along with, and I think, I think there's some level of like inner discernment that's baked enough that it feels like. It does. It feels like I can, I can reengage without the risk of like either being spun up and fucking pissed or like coerced into, well, because I'm moved and I can feel unconditional love at this part of mass.
All the stupid beliefs that you're also telling me I have to accept, right? That I don't feel susceptible to that and I also don't [00:47:00] feel angry about that happening. Maybe a little
Eva: I think that's like, that's the whole. crux of this conversation, what you're, what you've been expressing is essentially is that you have this sovereignty now that you're sovereign and so therefore you can interact with it without either getting swept away or caught up or being resentful or rebellious.
You can like, you might be confused sometimes still, but then you, you can question and, you know, interact with it critically and pick and choose with yours. Like it's all about sovereignty. That's, you know, that's what you're talking about, like being. Coming into your own, getting comfortable in your own skin, having your own life experience.
Like that's, that's what I meant earlier too with like the healing piece. I don't know if that's like the right word for it, but it's like then you're not triggered by like the same things that bothered you. Not even with religion, just in life, you know, like when you've, when you're sovereign, then you can, when's like being around my parents, like some, when I find myself to be more sovereign, I can go back into the same challenging experience and have a completely different reaction to it because I'm not.
Being, you know, tossed and [00:48:00] turned around. And so, Yeah.
I think that's the, the piece of people, uh, are, are interested in coming back into religion. It's, it's probably gonna be, 'cause they have developed some sovereignty if they've left and then they want to come back. And if the feeling in your body is still like a fuck no, that's, that's good information to have.
Completely allowed. And you don't ever have to go. Back if you don't want to, you know? But I think it's the sovereignty that gives you access to all those things.
Kyley: Yes, yes, yes, yes. And I can also feel how, even to the point of sovereignty, when I was like feeling all these pings to go back to mass, I felt how much it was my choice. Right? That's the other thing that's interesting. Like I could feel like I could feel spirit being like, you'd, you'd like this? And me just being like, I don't wanna like it,
Eva: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
Kyley: know?
But I could feel how much it was like. We'll find a way to give you what you need. So if this is a hard, if this is a hard no for you, then we'll give you what you need in, you know, some, [00:49:00] maybe there would've been some reiki circle that, right? Like that's that I, that I, who knows. But it felt like, you know, it didn't feel like, well, if you don't do this, there's some punishment piece.
It just felt like this is for you. And, um, and I am amused. I am really deeply amused at sovereignty. Has led me back to this thing like, right, like in my sovereign state, I would think I would be even less interested. But to your point, it's like in sovereignty there's this like really delicious and amusing and rich exploration of Catholicism again, but on my own terms.
So I am loving it. Surprise.
Eva: That's why I think freedom is so amazing because then you get to be really clear on what your true desire is. Like you would've never, like, once we're free. It's like, anyway, we were talking about this offline earlier. It's like one, once I give my myself the freedom to, to either, I don't know, be messy or the freedom to do, to stay when I don't want or to, to leave when I don't wanna stay or to stay when I actually, whatever.
Like [00:50:00] then I'm, I'm not bound by shoulds or. Um, fear or I'm not in reaction to anything, and then, and then my true desire arises. And sometimes that true and the true desire is really surprising. Yeah, really surprising.
Kyley: really surprising. Yes. Yes.
Eva: Woo. All right. Yes.
Kyley: Okay. My love. What is one thing that's bringing you joy?
Eva: The thing that is bringing me joy?
surprisingly, is my mom, like the sweet time that we're experiencing together. Um, and the reason I'm surprised is because it's also sprinkled with or mixed in with a lot of frustration and. And, and impatience. Um, but you know, I'm in Taiwan. I'm doing, you know, the three months that I. usually do in Taiwan and doing a lot of caretaking, which can sometimes be a.
Fraught and stressful for me, and I was telling Kylie even before we started recording that something about this year has felt different, specifically with [00:51:00] my mother anyway. I think maybe she's just in a better place. Her mental health is better than it's been the last two years, and she's been sweet and kind and patient with me.
Usually I feel like I have I'm the one who has been patient with her, but she's been really, it's been really nice to experience and. We, it's different, and I wish I could say more, but it's surprising and it's a joy and a gift when you have these relationships that you know are historically really difficult and.
When they're not as difficult and not only are they not as difficult, but then there's like enjoyment there, genuine savoring and enjoyment. And I think Kylie knows, like I'm always waiting for the other shoe to drop when it comes to my mom due to her mental health and stuff with my parents. But I don't want that to be a reason to not let myself enjoy it when it's good, you know, the waiting for the other shoe to drop.
So yeah, [00:52:00] the ongoing push pull relationship that I have with my mother, but really what's been arising is even though there's a lot of frustration, just deep love and cuteness and sweetness, I think she's just also getting older. She's just like a someone. She's not being a pain in my ass. She's actually super, super, super cute. so Yeah, that's been gen being bringing me like genuine joy. It, you know, there's different flavors of joy and this one feels very deep. So yeah, feeling that's what's bringing me joy. Ah, yeah. Okay. What's one thing that's bringing you joy,
Kyley: Um,
Eva: Kylie? My love.
Kyley: I have been so into making shit. I've been like, um, sewing a bunch of things and, uh, I busted out, uh, my sewing machine and I made all this bunting for my son's birthday. It was like so [00:53:00] much fun. Like I just mashed up all these fun fabrics and, um, my daughter and I have been making clothes for her little dolls and, um.
Eva: is just good for the soul. I mean, it's also like creativity and making stuff, but I don't craft enough. And so I, I love that I can live vicariously for you. I can just see how It's like lighting you up, you know?
Kyley: It's really, it's funny, like my mom is not at all crafty. Neither of my grandmothers were crafty, so I, I. Like if I, I think if I'd had like a grandmother or a mother who was like really crafty, I would've always been. But I've, I have always been curious about this thing, but kind of, I'm a little, like, I'm self-taught.
I have one aunt who has like later in life got really into sewing and so she teaches me a few things, but, um. But it feels like it's so good to make stuff with your hands. You know? Like if listeners have been listening regularly, like cooking with my joy not that long ago, I think I might have done another joy about crafting, like making stuff with my hands [00:54:00] feels so good for my heart and soul.
And um, for a long time my business was like the place I put all of my creative energy and it feels so good to just be like, oh no, I'm gonna make some. clothes today. Um,
Eva: for fun, you know?
Kyley: just for fun. And I recently was chatting with one of my husband's coworkers who like, he sews and he's like really into fashion and he was showing me all of his, like, projects he's been working on.
And it got me so inspired to be like, wait. 'cause I've kind of intimidated to make like real things, you know, I've been like in intimidated to like, make. Adult clothes. Um, but I was like, wait a minute. I'm just gonna do it. I'm just gonna fucking do it. And so I haven't yet. Um, but I,
Eva: Ugh.
Kyley: I'm really, really excited about fuck it.
Let's just, just find out what happens.
Eva: Yeah. I'm jealous. I wanna be crafty. I wanna be, I have zero craftiness in my family. I don't know. I mean, I mean, grand grandparents, so
[00:55:00] just because out of necessity, like at the time in life, that's what they did. But, um, yeah, I wanna be more crafty and you're inspiring me. I don't think it's gonna happen now, but I hope it's in the cards for me in the future
Kyley: I feel like I
Eva: agree.
Yeah, I think about making things with your hands. I, I don't know for sure, but I, I mean like, there has to be some sort of scientific study out there that shows specifically, like making stuff with your hands is good for you, like your heart And your mental health.
Kyley: And I feel like for your, we can talk about this more, but for your like. Crazy long flight back from like all your travel you do from Taiwan back to Brazil. I feel like if you were doing like an embroidery thing or knitting some small hand project and listening to an audio book, that would make that travel
Eva: that's
Kyley: pleasant.
Eva: I actually already have my whole travel. I'm, I'm really good with travel and I have that game locked in. But Yeah, I do think that that would be, be like a nice thing to do. I, yeah.
Okay. I'll keep that in my back pocket. [00:56:00]
Kyley: Now we have to go. We're at time. But now I'm like, wait, I wanna know all of your epic long travel tips because you are like the master of it. So next time
Eva: Okay. We love you all so much. Thanks for being here with us at He University. If you like the show, share it with people and we'll see you next week. Bye.
Kyley: I.