Eva arrives back from Taiwan and prepares for her solo cross country trip while Kyley unpacks her desire to work more and parent less (without feeling shame about it)
Eva arrives back from Taiwan and prepares for her solo cross country trip while Kyley unpacks her desire to work more and parent less (without feeling shame about it)
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📍 hi, it's Kylie.
And it's Eva
to Hello Universe. Oh, I am impressed that Jet lagged Eva still busted out with the
I know. And hand motions. I was doing an air horn for people who
I was gonna give you the path. I was gonna let you off the hook cuz you are very jet lagged and used to, still rallied for, for our listeners.
is how much I love the show all.
Oh, oh, me too. My heart is like already, um, oh, my heart is already just feeling so warm.
Yes. It's been a minute friend, so Hi. Um, this will be Kylie and I have already predetermined this might be a sleepy episode because we've just been, we're both . Kylie is at the end or at the beginning of a launch. I have jet lag cuz I just got back to the states. Uh, and we've both been yawning, but we are also both so excited to be here because we have a lot of catching up to do.
Yeah.
right. Because there were a bunch of times when you were away between, I got sick, you got covid. That was, there was like a million times that we had to cancel. So I feel like even, like normally I talk to you for like three hours every
Yeah.
I feel like it's been much less frequent.
And, uh, my heart is, uh, very happy to be sitting
Yeah. And I think I'm just going through a huge transition, like it's been ongoing, but I feel like it's a lot of change happening and routine. and it's just like, not my game right now. So Yeah. And I'm sure we'll dig into that. But before we do that, uh, because I have all this transitioning, I don't have anything.
Mo I wanna hand the mic to you so you can share with our amazing audience.
I do have something very cool. It doesn't have a date yet, although by the time this airs, perhaps it will, which is, um, I'm doing a, I'm posting a workshop called Entering Your Villain Era
Yes.
And I am so jazz guys. I have been collecting memes to promote this workshop for a
Oh, I'm sure there's so many good memes
It is. The only thing on my computer organized is the enter your villain error meme promotion folder,
Oh my God's so good. I mean, you should throw, you should like do the workshop just for the memes really, because that's
Truly, truly. Maybe that's the pro that's like the real, like, yes, I am so jazz. Like, they literally are like collect, I'm not even lying. They're like collected by like subtheme within this,
Oh, I know. I get it.
um, Yeah, I'm super jazzed. I'm doing it with my Palace Simpson. And, uh, the whole idea is just, um, yeah, wouldn't it be nice to just like shed off the good girl skin? You know, all the ways in which we feel pressure to perform, pressure to be good. The kind of worrying sense of like, is this the right choice or is that the right choice?
Right? Like a lot of it comes from this fear of being wrong or bad or perceived as bad. And so like she's fucking through a party and like be a villain, so we're all gonna enter a villain ever together.
the title really says it all. Like, I get it. I, when the minute you said it, I was like, oh, like,
Yeah, yeah.
th this is gonna be so great. And you and Liz, like, I feel like this is kind of like your wheel of your wheelhouse.
Yeah.
It, it, it's a version. I think of also so much of what we talk about, which. uh, gosh, what is it?
You can't do it right, because there's always gonna be some other version, right. That could be better. And also the monster, like, you know, the monster stuff.
Yeah. That, exactly, exactly. It's a, it's, it's all in the same thing. But, uh, there's a bunch of great songs we can also play that are about the villain era
I'm,
just really in it for the social media at this point. I'll be wearing my Disney villain pants when I host it.
uh, no. I can feel the energy of this. It's like, it feels very liberating, very fun, very badass.
Yeah, which is what all of us are. So we, I just, you know, this is like a little dose to of remembering that, so I'm very, very excited about that. Um, if I don't, you might have, there might be a date. So click, look at the, check out the show notes or like, check out my social media. Just message me. Just see man, Instagram and I will give you the information.
That's the tight
straight to the source folks. Yeah. I love it. I can, there's no depth to like how much we can go into our villain era, and that's something that I'm cont it's like the skin that we are always shedding, so I just love it
yeah, I'm, I'm, I am super jazz. I, I am super jazz. So, um, come join us for that. Um, and I don't know, I have other big things coming down the pike, but that's, that's the main thing for right now that I'm excited about.
I can't wait to see all the memes.
Yes, I'll just tag you in all of
Yeah.
Um, yeah, and other than that, I'm just pumped to be in your space and see you and.
Yeah. Well, why don't we give the folks an update? Um, I, I actually, I'm often concerned that like, uh, the Chronicle, the chronological order of our podcast make no fucking sense because we record in this weird way we're.
isn't real and we're reinforcing it. But that's true because we dropped the Kylie and Eva episodes like basically within a week of recording them. But the guest episodes are sometimes months later. So if you are ever confused, the Kylie and Eve episodes are like Cannon Time and the guest episodes are like, you know, have like leapt back and back to the
Ex. Exactly, yes. So right now, um, you know, I'll, I'm going through this journey of like a breakup, moving all my shit into storage, going to Taiwan, come on. Now I'm back in Portland. Now I'm going on this road trip. Um, and then like, I'm gonna be talking about that. And then next week we're probably gonna have an episode from like the summer in which I was actually like just going through my breakup.
So if that's confusing to anybody, uh, you should be confused. That's why.
Oh my God, that's great. I had never, I hadn't thought of that because uh, you know, up until recently it's like relatively static. But yeah, now your life is in so much transition. That's all. Extra dose of nonsense. I kind of love it.
Yeah. I think it's hilarious. Um,
So right now you are in Portland. You were in Portland.
yes, I'm currently, yes, I'm, I'm in Portland. I have some dear friends that I'm staying with who are just been so gracious because I've had to like repack all my sh I've like, it's just been repacking all my shit. Like I'm packing up all my whole life into my like car, which means there's just a bunch of stuff just like exploded all over their basement and they've just been so cool about it, which is like, ugh. Good
feel like you would be a very good house guest. I'm just gonna go ahead and guess
I do try to be, I do, I do, I do actually. I would say that the bigger problem is I think I sometimes be too polite. I don't know if you've ever played that game of. And I know that's actually not helpful, but it's like, anyway, it's something that I've been thinking about. Sometimes it's just easier to speak, to direct and be like, Hey, I need this.
Can you gimme this? Or, I
Mm-hmm.
instead, but instead I go like, no, no, no. I'm like, so sorry. I'm so sorry. Try to like, make myself as invisible as possible. Cause I don't wanna be in the way.
Yes. Yes. Which, yeah, it is. I mean, I remember when my college Rumi Ray came and stayed with us essentially for a month. They had turned their car into a little like cozy bed nook. And so they were here for a month, but also had their own place to sleep. And, uh, part of the reason why, which worked spectacularly and part of that was cuz Nick and Ray are good friends.
But part of that was also because Ray was, in the beginning, was just like very, very, we're we're both really straightforward people and they were like, okay, tell me if I do something in like, I won't notice, for example, you will notice first if your husband is annoyed , right? Like, so there was just a lot of like explicit invitation to be frank in the beginning that I think, I just think, I think that's the best way to be
Yeah, yeah,
or friends
Yeah, exactly. Or a human. Yeah.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Right, right, right. Um, and so when you leave for your big driving escapade es escapade, escapade
Um, today is, what day is it today? We Thursday. Today's Thursday, yes. Today's Thursday. I'm leaving on Saturday, so the day after tomorrow. So I still have like a bunch of stuff to pack.
driving a U-Haul? Are you dragging a U-Haul or are you
no U-haul. It's all, so, cuz once I get to Texas, I'm living in this Airstream trailer. So a lot of this is about like, simplifying my life cuz it's gonna be a much smaller space.
Um,
what are you doing with all your
I still think I have too much shit by the way. So it's gonna be interesting to see like, , that's why. Oh yeah. That's why I wanna do an episode about stuff at some point, because it is, I'm always just thinking about my relationship to stuff. But, um, well, like a psycho plant lady, I'm bringing more of my plants to, to Austin
I mean, I, yeah, that's what I would expect. But do they all fit?
No, I've had to, like, I've had to, I had to sell a whole bunch of them when I was packing up or when I was like, or, you know, putting all myself into storage. That whole process of like breaking up and then like putting everything in storage was so fucking grueling. And I just, I was like so rushed and I had to like, just give some a, a away.
It was such a, so willy-nilly and I wanted to like, find them all a good home, but it was just all such a cluster fuck by the end that like, it was real, real messy. So like they did eventually all find homes. Uh, and yeah, I kind of, it. Yeah, I'm happy to bring some of my plans. I just need to figure out how to keep them alive in the winter, in the car overnight when it's really moving cold.
Oh
Yeah, I didn't think about that actually until, until recently. Um, so I'm leaving on Saturday and I'm really excited. I feel surprisingly ready,
Yeah.
even though I also have all these nerves about driving, which I think I've talked about before. Um, might, and you know what, you know, whatever. This is what I would say to you, so I'll just say to the podcast and just be open about it.
Honestly, my biggest concern right now is that I was supposed to start my bleed. Earlier this week, and it hasn't started yet. And I'm, that's like the thing that's most stressful because I do day one and two of my period, I'm basically
you're outta commission.
super outta commission and like driving. I would do, I feel like I will not be a safe driver on the road
That's how bad it gets. So, but you know what? I'm just gonna let my body, maybe my body has some sort of higher intelligence than me and let it do its thing. But honestly that could like fuck everything up. It's just gonna suck that my, if my, I'm on my period the whole time I'm on this road trip.
um, I don't know if this is helpful, but, uh, Liz once said something really great to me, which was, um, she was like, I decided a while ago that I bleed when I'm ready to release, like when I'm ready to release my body, process it through, you know, my bleed. And so I don't, um, and so like, I'm not, I'm not concerned about being attached to like, linear time.
And ever since then, I have watched. I kind of observed that cycle from me. I'm still pretty, like 28 days give or, you know, give or take with a few kind of notable exceptions. But I have actually watched that happen. And maybe it's the power of like that magic being invited in and me being like, oh yeah, that sounds fun.
I want that more than I want anyway. But if, if that is also a kind of truth for you, it feels like it would make a certain kind of sense that like upon moving your body would be like, oh, okay. Like we're, we're in transition. We're like, or, or we've arrived and like now we can shed whatever.
I love this.
that beautiful? Yeah.
I mean, you are gifting me and Liz, you know, both of you together gifting me something really great because. Yeah, you know what, I, I don't like, I often talk about my period, like it's this burdensome thing and I know I, I would like to change my narrative around that just because I have like, um, challenging bleeds.
But I, and I also, I think because I get so tired and it just knocks me out, I always, um, meet them so trepidatious like, oh, like, ah, you know, like, this is gonna be awful. I
Hmm.
just this really like, um, what do you call that in therapy? Where it's like, this catastrophic or there's like,
Oh, catastrophizing.
yes, exactly, yes.
Catastrophizing about like, oh, it's gonna be like terrible. I'm gonna be on the road. But I think there is something there about, like maybe, yeah, my body is just intelligent and it knows something that I don't, and maybe it's all for the better best. And I could see myself releasing something I think when I have a hard time. coming, like bringing it together then is like, okay, so what do I do when I feel like shit though , like, physically feel like fucking shit. And I,
yeah, yeah,
and I have to like, do shit. Just,
yeah. I mean, can, do you, can you, I'm sure there's cost involved in this, but could, like, could you delay your start or could you just hold up at a hotel room a couple extra days or,
Um, I, that's the whole thing. I cou I could, but I, so I'm meeting people all along the way. I'm staying at people's houses. Yeah. I've already booked a bunch of, like, a bunch of places that I'm staying, so I really, like, I have a friend who's driving out to meet me and, and
mm-hmm.
and you know, I just don't wanna fuck with other people's schedule, so it kind of doesn't feel like an option.
I would just offer one thing.
As someone who wishes, I live geographically close enough to be like, you know, a drive-by visitor of your road trip. No one is gonna be inconvenienced if your plans change, like everyone is a point on your trip because they want to, oh, getting emotional. They want to celebrate you.
They want you to feel loved. They, they want this to feel more like a victory lap and less like a trying and exhausting, you know, hall across the country. And so if you need to change your plans for what's best for you, I know I could, I speak with total confidence. All of the people who are planning to meet you, that they will not be upset cuz they just want you to feel that they.
Oh my gosh.
That was so beautiful. Beautiful. And again, you're giving me something that I just realized as you were saying that, that I was like, oh my God, I've been like so stressed about this timeline. It's been, I've been like really methodical and structured about this whole thing and. Just you saying that right now, released something huge where I was like, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait.
Like
mm
I can flow through this. Like if I'm tired, I can, yeah. I mean, yes, will I lose some money? Yeah. But I think there's something bigger here, which is like, if I need to take care of myself, I can give do that. I can give myself permission to do that.
yeah. And of, of all the people, your friends won't be upset.
honestly, I dunno if this is crazy, I wouldn't be, I wouldn't be surprised if like I get my period like tonight or tomorrow. Like I
I was just thinking that. I was like, oh, this might be the thing that your body was like holding onto you to see
because I just felt like literally just this whole, like, I can't even explain it. Something just like moved through my whole body when you said that. Um, and again, so simple like in, so in a way obvious. , uh, maybe to, to the outside person's like, yeah, of course you can just change your stuff. But it's interesting to see how tightly I hold onto things sometimes.
Yeah, I mean, for sure, especially with so much transition and so much kind of evolving and changing, of course you are gonna
Yeah. I think,
something for structure and.
I think it just feels like there's so many moving pieces that it's like Yeah, exactly. That I was feeling like I needed to have a hold all of that on hold on that, so it didn't all just like come crumbling down, but there is no
I also have a practical tip for you as someone who, um, when I was in sales in particular, there was one job where I would just like, like travel. Like I would go to Iowa and Alabama and Arkansas. Like I went to, like all these random places in America. And I would sometimes have these like really long drives.
Um, and sometimes I'd just be too tired to make it to the hotel that I thought I was gonna make it to. And, um, what I have found is, . Like, say, say you had reserved like a Marriott, a courtyard Marriott in one town that's two hours away and you're like, I can't make, I guess I can't drive that far. If you book a different, if you, if you like some somehow by, by, like if you book a courtyard Marriott near you, like Right.
If you book the same hotel chain, they often will be like, oh, that's fine. We won't, we won't charge you the cancellation fee.
We'll just like transfer it.
because Yeah. Cuz they're um, so if you just like call the Marriott line and you're like, Hey, I need to like stop driving, but I don't, I still wanna stay with your company or whatever.
Anyway,
my God. Yeah. Hot,
of the time I didn't get charged.
hot tip. Yes. I mean, I really enjoy learning about these little things. I've been learning so much just about like little travel things. Like, I dunno, it's interesting to see like there's, there's a lot of people who will spend their life living on the road, like by choice, you know?
And like, it's like that movie, um, Noman Land, is that what it was with Francis McDermott? Do you remember? It was recent. She has got her like, living out of her rv
Ah,
anyway, I'm just like, yeah, it's cool. There's like this whole culture of stuff and like little hot tips that people do and I learned how to like jump a car, which is
Oh, very
Yeah. It's very cool.
Very cool.
Um, so yes, I am, I'm looking forward to this big adventure.
I'm glad.
Mm.
And also I look forward to updates and we'll be sending you like lots
Yeah. You know that if I freak out, I'm sure.
Also just for the record now, I'm feeling like both Witchy and Catholic at the same time, which is fun. But St. Christopher is like, he's the patron saint of like driving and cars and like lots of Catholic people will like give you a St.
Christopher medal to put in your car. So as we're having this conversation, I was about to say something about driving and I just really felt like Christopher being like, I'm in, I'm on it. So just know that you've got like co-pilot with St. Chris
Oh, awesome.
Christopher. I don't know what he prefers, like, feel like he like Christopher.
So you
yeah. Good. I got a driving homey.
you got the hookup.
Yeah.
yeah, yeah.
That's good to know. Yeah. If I'm, if I need, I can have a conversation with him
Yeah. Yeah, he's very, uh, he's offering that He's very good at road trips. Uh, great companion,
Cool. Yeah, it's exciting. I just, yeah, I feel like I wanna say more about it, but I don't know what I wanna say yet. Maybe I'll probably have more to say about it afterwards,
Yeah, that makes sense. It's like all just anticipation
Mm-hmm. . Yeah,
I'm glad we gave you a little bit of, you know, I feel like we like shook out the, you know,
exactly that. Yeah, exactly. Yeah. I just am so excited to be in nature. Um,
Mm,
in desert again. Oh, okay. Anyway, what about you?
Oh my
You're also going through something really huge
But I didn't expect to be huge. So, um, listeners might know, uh, if you follow me on social media, I had this really big summit, uh, 21st, 22nd, 23rd, 24th of January. And Eva couldn't be part of it cuz she was flying home from Taiwan then. But it was three days and I interviewed a whole bunch of really brilliant people who I consider.
Uh, leader like thought leaders in business, right? People who see business a little bit differently. And you know, like we had, oh, Nike, Nike Aurelia. From our um, podcast talk, we talked about how to build an anti-racist business. We had a guest, uh, com talk about, um, like deconstruction and how to like slow down your business and breaking up with hustle culture.
Um, we also had some folks coming talking about branding and anyway, copywriting. Um, but then I also had a healer come each day. So we did like epic magic at the same time and I was very excited about it and I knew that it would be very, I knew it would be tired
Wait, can I, can I just like interrupt and say, I just love again how you're really, you're, you know, this is you, the intersection of like, the business with like the mystical, which is you just doing the damn thing, which
Yeah. It felt fun.
yeah. Mm-hmm.
Yeah, to be like, yes, we're gonna talk about copywriting for an hour, and then we're gonna like just literally drop, kick you into the void and like talk about witch wounds. So it, it felt really fun, um, in that regard. And, and I knew I would be really tired because like, you know, like there's just a lot of intensity in getting something like that, you know, getting that ready in terms of like the inviting people holding space.
Shout out to Katherine, Doris, my right hand woman, who literally, none of this would ever happen without her. Um,
It's a lot. It's so, I don't think people, like do people, I guess, you know, if you don't run a business, you don't understand like how much goes on in the background
yeah. Especially,
happen.
and then like, and then it's the week and it's the, like the moment of it, right? So then it's like, you know, four, all these like 12 conversations and, um, and they. So great. I mean, after the first day I was cracking up cause I was just like, I love interviewing people. That's why I love our podcast.
Like I just love being like, yes, smart person. Like I wanna learn from these cool, interesting people all the time. Um, and uh, and then also because I'm bonkers. So that was its own big thing and I was proud of myself cause I had like messaged all my clients and was like, I'm gonna be at a commission. Like I I, um, I actually took the week off from client calls cuz I just knew it was gonna be big.
It was bigger than I expected
So,
Which is great.
yeah. So also, I mean like energy, energy-wise. So, so also, um, also my class Sovereign Sales, which you've heard me talk about on the show that also started the same weekend, which later made sense when I learned that it was like a, apparently a bonkers astrology weekend.
And I was like, oh, that's why I picked everything too. anyway. Um, and then I also have a corporate client. And the corporate client also all of a sudden was like, had a ton to do that week, and I was like, oh my God. It was just like, so there were so many things that happened at the same time. So there's just the shit hit the fan of like, oh my God, there's so much that I want to do, so much that I feel, feel like not like I need to do.
Um, the corporate thing feels harder, right? Because it's less for me. It's, I'm definitely having a harder time with Should is dead with this corporate client, right? Versus in my own business, I'm like, yeah, whatever. We don't do that. So, um, so some of that and just like actual hours in the day and then the intensity of this summit.
And then my friend Vanessa, who was one of the, and also by the way, all these replays are available in my Facebook group. You can message me and I'll give you ac like give you access to all of them. They're there in perpetuity. They're
so.
I'm glad because I wanted to, and I, you know, I, I knew I want, I know. I wanna listen to some of the conversations, so,
Yeah. Especially you will really love the Kelly Mahalick. I wanna invite her to be on our,
on our, on the show. Actually, that was the hustle culture one. I was like, oh, Eva and Kelly will love each other.
Yes.
Um, but, um, what was I gonna say? Oh, so there was like, oh, so Vanessa, who did the wrap up session, which was just bonkers energy work and everyone should go tune into this, it was super intense and really beautiful.
Um, she pointed out afterwards that I basically, she's like, I think you kind of got a dose of everyone's medicine. Like she, I think she's like, by even, even the sessions that weren't magic sessions, like you were like receiving some of their particular kind of magic and so you were just like receiving, I was thinking a lot about like output, but she was also saying which, but she was also saying like, but you were also receiving a lot.
And I was like, oh, that was an interesting, and that really tracked. So, so, uh, I have the summit. I'm tired. I, um, but I'm like jazzed and excited and I had planned to be tired, so I was like, fu I was on board with it all and then it was over and I crumbled into a pile of dust.
Hmm. Tell me what, tell me more about that. What do you, what does that, what does that mean emotionally, physically,
both, I was like so tired that I was like, I don't remember the last time I've been this tired.
And also I just spent hours. Podcast, you get the unfiltered version of me. I spent hours one night crying. Wednesday night, I spent hours crying. Like I just couldn't stop crying. And I was like, and I had, and the thing that was, it was interesting is that it was like on some level there was some story involved, which I'm happy to like get into and speak to, but also it just felt, it also felt like the story was, it just felt like this.
I needed to cry. Do you ever have those moments where it's like something happens that gives you space to cry and then you're crying and it's you, it's like no longer about the thing you were initially crying about.
hold on. Let me think. Cause I think this is actually a really important question. It's like a great question. I'm just, sorry. I just really love this because I think crying feels so fucking good. Like, okay. It depends. Let me, you know, I mean, it's subjective, I guess. Like there's sometimes we're crying, you know, does not feel
I mean, crying itself I think always feels good, but the circumstances around it might not
Yeah. But like, it's like, if I, like, I know this sounds weird. I was actually thinking about this recently. As much as I like, struggle with the physical aspects of my period, um, what happens on my period is like I get very emotional or I, I just, my and, and I was like, and I was like, I like PMs. I like was thinking about, I was in it the other day and I was like, what does this feel like?
And I was like, I just feel like I'm feeling everything so much. And I, it actually feels kind of awesome cause I feel so alive. Like everything is just so fucking rich. And people talk about being emotional. It's like, it's a bad thing. Like, oh, I'm sorry I'm so emotional. Or Oh, she's an emotional, you know, all that stuff.
But like, I don't know. I think, yeah, I don't know. I think we're really lucky actually, if we can have that kind of emotional range.
Yes. Uh uh. So that was, yes. So that was also, that was also one part of me was like, I'm totally disintegrating and then, and like why and what is happening. And also like, this is kind of like we're in it. We're like really living life right now.
Yeah. Well cause it's, it's really not, like if you're not scared of it, then that's, What makes it so kind of cool, but
And also, I don't know about you, but that feeling where I know that I'm grieving or like, or I feel like I can feel like the emotions building up and they're not pleasant, but I can't cry. That kind of like emotional constipation is so much worse than
Totally. Totally. Yeah. So that's what I was trying to say is like, you know, I, I know what it's like to feel emotional and sometimes then, but I can't cry and then, but like something will just like be an impetus for crying and I don't know what it is. Maybe it's like watching some, it could be totally unrelated, you know what I mean?
And then it just like opens up the flood gates and if I let myself, it feels really good if I let myself cry. Yeah.
that's like kind of what was happening. So it was this weird soup of like, it was just very intense and I, and what my most of my grief was about, which kind of was like most, most of the emotions were around this topic of the conflict of motherhood really. And specifically this tension of like, I am really ambitious and I can't find time in the day because I make all my time before my kids.
And I don't always really enjoy giving them as much time as they do. But I have created a logic that like to do otherwise is, you know, like it would be abandoning them. Right? I have like definitely like, It's a rich field of mom guilt, right around like, um, um, and, and this kind of catch 22 of like, you have to, anyway, just this, like this sense of like having this big vision, right?
Because basically I had this summit and it was amazing. And then I came out of it and then felt like there's still more, like, there's still more that I want to do, and I didn't feel like I could rest the way I wanted to or like come back and do all the things I wanna do and also be mom. Like, I was like the, the, they don't all, they just don't all fit, right?
Like it's, and we, I keep talking about this on the show, right? It's just this reoccurring topic. Um, but it's like, it doesn't all fit like we were talking about last time, about like the tu pies instead of , you know? So it was like the, it was like the. , that very thing we talked about. If you guys listened a couple weeks ago, even, I had a conversation where I realized like, oh, I don't want one pie split down the middle between motherhood and business.
Like, I want, I want them actually to be, I want a hundred percent of
both anyway. Um, there was, it was like, almost like, I don't know about you, but I see patterns in my life as like, it's like I'm moving through a chap. I'm like moving through something big. And so there's all these like little lessons and little and big breakthroughs and ahas and insights, and they're all, I'm doing a big, um, hill motion with my hand.
Everybody, they're like, I got all kind of on the same theme and they cluster together. So it definitely feels like everything right now is around this like, uh, like this pressure around, like, you can't act. I can't actually do it. All
right. Something has to give and. realizing that on some level what I want to give is actually I wanna give less time.
I want, I want to work more. And that being , financially complicated. Right. Um, which then makes me resentful of everyone who's like 28 and like, you know, whatever. But, um,
Wait, wait. What do you mean? Why?
oh, just, there's like what I, this, this is petty everybody,
Oh, good. I, I love
I'm sobbing on the podcast and now I mean petty. There are occasionally when I
give us petty. Okay. And there's no, a single person out here listening who's never been, who's not ever been petty.
true. Um, if you would like, if you would like pettiness with your spiritu un varnished with your spirituality podcast, um, yeah. No apparent. Sometimes I feel, um, bitter about, um, people who. bajillion dollar businesses and they're like 28 and have no obligations. And, and I'm like, well, yeah, I could do that too.
I didn't, so, right. That's why I'm really bitter. It's cuz like, oh, I just wor, I just like slept at some corporate thing when I was 28 and now that I have, but there's this story in my head. It's like, oh, but if I had all the time in the world, then I would like, then I would
Be able to do
on social, then I would have a huge audience or
Right, right,
that. right,
right. Of course. Of course. I hear what you're saying. But does it make a difference if the person's like, not 30? I guess I'm wondering if age is, is, is
is somehow for some reason and I some reason, yeah. Cuz if someone like, like,
Exactly. I, I don't have kids and I'm almost 40 and I'm like, I, I do what I want with my time, and I'm like, does
and I have no bitterness about
that's
Um, it is definitely, it is definitely for some reason an age
Well, I think I get it because it's probably some story about how like, oh, well if you did it that way back then, it's like a, I don't know if this is true, correct me if I'm wrong, but projection of like, oh, well, I, um, you know how you could have done it before?
I think that's probably there. And then I don't wanna admit that. So instead I'm just like, oh, whatever. They're not, so then what I say is like, you don't know what you're talking about when you're 28,
so, which is also not true.
yeah. Yeah. Which is true and not true. Yeah.
right, right, right. I mean, you also know you 38 like none of
That's, that's true. That's so facts.
Um, , no. Anyway, I really do love, um,
I mean, I have to say though, yeah, this has been a theme for a, a w this like, not, not a theme of like the, like that you can't have all the pies, but like, I know you wanna work more. Like that's you, you know, you like it.
I do, I do really like it. I do. I mean, that's like the, Nick and I went away on vacation a couple weekends ago, um, just locally for his birthday, which was really, really, really great. And we were, um, having actual adult conversations for a change. And one of them was like, we drove by some like, billboard for like mega million.
Interesting. And we were always like, what would you do? Like if we won that tomorrow, what would you do? And we were both having that conversation and I realized, which I already knew, that I would a thousand percent keep
do the same thing. Exactly.
like how, maybe how much or like, you know, maybe that it's more things that I would outsource or whatever, but a thousand percent I would continue doing with that, what I'm doing right now
Yeah, that's I,
a better ward.
Adam asked exactly. Yeah. Adam asked me the same question, exact question, and I was like, he's like, is there another profession you would choose? And I like really had to think about it. I was like, no. Like there's, like, this is exactly what I would wanna do. I do think I'd wanna get into more like humanitarian, um, I.
this is a whole thing for another episode, but I do want to like, use my energy and my time for, to contribute to a really specific cause. Like I want to pick a cause and I don't know, that feels really important to me.
hmm.
um, anyway, but that's, that's, yeah. That's the only thing that I would change, but I was still like focused.
This is like the work I wanna do.
Yeah. Even if, like, if I didn't, if somehow we had enough money that I didn't want need to work, I would, I would still wanna do this,
I know how
is
Yeah. Yeah. It's gotta, yeah, exactly. We, I feel very fortunate.
Yeah. Same. Um, so. Yeah. So it's this like ongoing thing of like, I think, and I appreciate you reflecting back, like, I know you wanna work more. Like Liz is the safe. Everyone's like, yeah, we, we, we, we know. We're glad you're catching on. You know? Um, and I was talking to a friend of mine today about it and uh, and like almost started laughing to myself because I was like, I have ca created a story of like this, like catch 22, like impossibility specifically around like the cost of childcare.
I don't know why I had a nanny when I, like, I myself had childcare when I first started this business for a year. So it's like, cuz this is my friend was like, well, do you know anyone who's like self-employed? Pays for childcare, like through their, through being self-employed, like you need an expander.
And I was like, I don't know anyone. I was like, me. I might own money expander,
yeah.
But it's like, for some, I don't know why our brains are so, but the, but this is why one of the things I always say about money is like, money isn't often not about the money, right? My story of like, oh, it's too expensive for childcare is actually how I'm protecting myself
from. It's like, ma, I make it impossible. So I don't have to look at the fact that I would actually prefer to emotionally choose more time for myself than with my kids. And that feels like a betrayal. So instead I spin a story of like, oh, well we can't afford it. Or like, um, or I make it some impossible catch 22 of like, well, I need more time and I can't have, right?
I can't, and I can't have more time until I have blah, blah, blah. So I'll just sit here and be unhappy about this impossible situation. All of which is protecting me from actually feeling the fact that. . I would like less time with my children, and that also means that this is the end of a chapter. So I have to grieve this chapter of motherhood cuz you don't go backwards.
And also like sit in the fact that some part of me thinks that, oh, this makes me a terrible mother. So that's why I was a crying pile of goof for, you know.
Yeah. So, which is really interesting because I mean, you were just, okay, I have so many thoughts about this. I just wanna like witness that that's like what you're experiencing, which is so beautiful and complicated because this is the, like, this is the, um, I think so many parents feel this way.
Mm.
It's tough.
It's fucking hard. Like, I don't know, and I, mothers and fathers, but like it's you. I think sometimes in our capitalistic world, we feel like we have to choose. Like I don't, I know my brother was like in a really similar situation, like, I don't know, I don't know the exact details, but like something about like maybe getting a raise or like taking a different position, but then that would meant, that would've meant like less time with his family.
And how did he make that choice is like, fucking sucks. It just sucks. It is
And you know, what's,
parenthood.
do you know what's bonkers? Is somehow, this is what's really bonkers. Wow. I'm like, I could kind of see this, but it's clarifying as we're talking. My, the notion of, I'm gonna speak specifically about motherhood, although I think this is probably true for parents of all genders, but, um, motherhood and sacrifice are so intimately connected. if you need, if I, when I have needed full-time childcare because I had a job that I more or less liked, but also was kind of begrudging, I didn't feel guilty about, I didn't feel overwhelming guilt about the childcare, but somehow and like if tomorrow I had to get a job, like I wouldn't, I wouldn't feel guilty about the childcare.
It's like somehow the fact that I love this work so much and I am basic, I, it's hard to describe, but it's basically the fucked up thing about motherhood, at least as it lives in my body, is like,
you're supposed to love your children more than anything else.
How dare you enjoy anything more than your children? And so if you're going to work and you low-key hate your job, well that's fine because you're making sacrifices for your family.
But if you're choosing to work because you actually just fucking love to work and therefore are like more fun when you're home with your kids, then you are a selfish
Yep. Yep, yep. I mean, yeah. So, oh, and, and it's just so much that goes into this, there's so much things into this. I mean, we could like spend a whole episode unpacking like capitalism and the patriarchy and like, and motherhood, just like how it's seen in general. I don't know, there's just so much that goes into that, but I don't think we have time for that.
But I will say,
also, that's what I'm making you all do with me on the podcast over the course of three and a half years. So,
Uh, yeah, I do think listeners who are listening to that, they, they have their own version of this kind of story. You know, it may not be exactly that, but it's a flavor of that. Um, the other thing that I wanted to say is like, well, it's so perfect then that you are running a workshop on entering your villain error.
I know that I picked before I, before I even stepped into this, I picked that we were gonna be doing this Future pa, past me was looking out for future
yeah, exactly. Like there's just, there's, there's, you know, this is what you always help me with is like, what if, what if you, you know, my big fear is like, I'm crazy and you're like, whoa. What if you are crazy or whatever. And I'm like, what if you are a bad mom?
Ooh.
What if you just, what I'm not
No, I appreciate this. I appreciate this. Yeah.
like that's, this is, goes back to like Byron Katie stuff, who listeners, and she's like, this mini listeners may already know, but know of her work. But if you aren. , uh, anyway, she's like a, I guess you could call her spiritual teacher whose work I really appreciate, but she'll have you take a thought and she'll be, and one of the things that she does is she'll say, like, she'll say like, I am ready and willing to be ex or, I'm ready.
Like, the, your biggest fear, like me getting in a car accident, I'm ready and willing to get into a car accident and just like fucking sit in that. And, you know, it's not different from the work that we do, but yeah. I'm, I'm ready and willing and
mom.
Oh, right.
has a feeling about
I'm not even a mom. And I feel that way because the stories of like what you're, like, there's the pressure and the expectation and the shame that comes along with not being a good fucking mom.
Like here's the other crazy thing is like, I like, you know, being a bad dad isn't great either, but there's so much more acceptance I think for a father who's like busy at work and like not around.
Well, because that's the model we've given dads, right? Like I have a friend who's a stay-at-home dad, and like that's its own like complicated baggage,
right?
Yes. Yes, exactly. Uh, so yeah, are you ready and willing to be a bad mom? I, and I don't know, this is really interesting. I have an aunt, actually, who is a billionaire in Taiwan, which is different than being in a billionaire in America. But she's fucking loaded and uh, she has straight up. I remember asking her like, what was her secret to success?
Actually, I don't know if I like where this story's going cuz I don't wanna make it seem like you have to choose. But basically,
Well, it's her story, right? I And she, so you can tell her story
yeah, it's her story, I guess. I was just, she's great. She's the badass. I love her. She's like funny and she's just, I don't know. She, I have, I admire her and I respect her, but I, I did ask her like, how do you do it? And she's like, I am not a great mom. that's like straight up what she said and she. with like, not really so much shame.
Yeah, that's, I actually kind of love that,
yeah, it was
Because there's lots of terrible moms who like really insist that they're great , right?
yeah. And there's also something of like, I don't know, it wasn't, I, was it, I think it takes courage to say that, to be like, yeah, but, but what I don't like is this idea that it has to be a sacrifice or that like you have to choose. But there was something, I don't know, kind of like I didn't, I heard that I didn't judge her and I wasn't like, but also like she's not a bad mom.
That's the other, that's
right, right, right, right. Um, but I mean, but I do think there is some, some truth. That's my resentment of these of 20, you know, single 28 year olds, um, with, who have like already figured out their business, um, which I also recognize. Anyway, I am aware of the ridiculousness of that judgment, just know it.
But again, if my, if, look, here's the thing, if my com, if my, I really, if my spiritual practice is. Like witnessing my monsters, I'm not gonna not witness them in public
Yeah, totally. Of course.
um,
Also, who cares? That's such a, I feel like that's a very, um, not timid. It's a very, it's not that petty, I guess is what I'm saying. That's a very mild,
feels a little bit like, it also, it does feel also like cliche. Like, oh really? Like you're in your late thirties and you're like jealous of someone to deck. You know what I mean? There just is a little bit of like, couldn't you have like more interesting resentments? Oh, someone younger than you
is successful and you're like upset about it.
How original
so hilarious. That's, I mean, we've all been there. I, trust me, I have, I have plenty of unoriginal pettiness that I could share with
Yes. Yes. I know. I know. Um, uh, Yeah. So it's been, it's been like a really intense couple. It's been a really intense couple of days because I worked on Saturday, which I don't usually do to like get everything ready. Sundays is a workday for me, but I was like, you know, it was, it was the Summit Monday. I got up at like the crack of dawn to do this corporate paperwork, this corporate stuff.
Um, and then it was just so, it was just like all these long days, long days, long days, amazing conversations, magic intensity, like, and then I got to the other side of it and I, again, I knew I would be tired, but I was not, I just wasn't expecting that I would collapse into a, under the weight of my own
Mm-hmm.
inflicted feelings about motherhood and uh, like just need to cry.
And it
was, um, it's been an, it's been.
It's interesting cuz now I think I'm in the phase. So basically I think a lot of our, I think a lot of our suffering comes from not acknowledging and resisting what it is that we actually desire, right? And so the more I can acknowledge, like, okay, what I actually want is less time with my kids and more time to work, which still feels very icky in my body to say out loud just for context.
So don't anyone expect me to have a nanny tomorrow. . Um, uh, and now I'm like in the process of like, there's all this like witnessing, like today I picked them up from school and they just, they're three and six, you know, they're just like instantly bitching at each other in the back seat. They're just doing what kids do.
And I was just like, and like the noises are loud.
Yep. Mm-hmm.
And when I'm overstimulated I have, I have learned, I'm very, very sensitive noise to like, so Desi had like two quarters that he was like holding together in his hand and I was like, oh my, I am going to, oh my, oh my God, oh my god, I have 20 minutes in the car in those fucking quarters.
you know? Um, and then just being like, and then this other voice that's like, yeah, cuz this isn't what you want to be doing.
Mm,
You know, like, you, you don't have the patience for this because it's not what you want.
yep, yep.
Um,
Yes.
being complicated to just witness, you know, like talk about like being a bad mom is, it's like trying to just hold myself in the witnessing of like, oh yeah, I am actively annoyed at you because I actively don't want this, which, none of which is your fault.
And also I have, I have to. to be in integrity, I have to hold this whole soup of things while also like kind of trying to protect you from me cuz I'm about to yell at you for the quarters. It's like
layered and complicated. And then there's like shame or guilt or whatever. And then, and then that's the weird thing about shame, then it's like, then you're like, trying not to feel that, but all the oppression of how you're really feeling makes you like, um, more reactionary.
yes, yes. Right. You're trying so hard not to feel the like shame or
yeah.
that you then get more upset about the noise in the
Yep. Yep, yep, yep, yep.
Yes. Yeah. And I will say one of the things I know that I'm actually very good at about as a mom is, um, actually I think I've said it in the podcast before, but I am very quick to.
Just acknowledge when I'm wrong and when I like yell at them and I shouldn't have, or when I lose my temper or whatever, um, to the point that sometimes two things have happened. One, I think I've shared this on the show before, Desi will be like, don't you wanna apologize,
yeah.
I'm like, not yet
Oh my God. , yes. You have shared that before, but still just like,
It's just, yeah, like, no, I will call, not yet,
yes. I get to decide. Damn it.
But also he, less so with Bernie, but she's younger. He will come and actually, like, he will do the same thing. He will come, uh, totally unprompted cuz I don't, we don't do forced apologies, um,
well it's cuz you're modeling it for him, right? So like he
exact. And so I'm like, oh, this is
yeah.
he has come, been like, I'm sorry, I, you know,
Yeah. Yeah, yeah. Which is great. I mean, that's such a fucking good skill to instill into your kid and like that's gonna carry over into adulthood. Good. Lucky for his, whoever partner he has, is like a partner who can like, apologize when you've, you know, been a dick
So I note he did, uh, actually cry two weeks ago because he found out that he can't marry his sister.
Oh, interesting. Wow. That is,
actually Nick was putting him to bed and somehow it came up and he, Desi
oh my God, that is like so sweet. I mean, that's like, not talk like that incest thing aside, but like
Right, right, right, right, right.
but like the thought that like all
I know. Isn't so cute.
that is so cute. Wow.
And then today Birdie told us that she was gonna marry Gigi. And I was like, there's a lot of reasons why that doesn't work.
Gigi, you mean your gra her grandma, right? Yeah, yeah, yeah. I don't think you're a parent. Your kids understand what marriage is,
No. Nope, nope. Definitely not
Yeah. At three and six. You know, that makes sense.
Uh, um, so anyways, that's where I am. I am actively, you know, mid, um, disillusion Dissolvement. Um, and to the point that I just were listeners, I texted Eva earlier the day and was like, I don't, I, I, I don't know what's going on. I don't know what, what I'm gonna be able to record cuz I, it was just, it felt so raw, right?
And we've talked about before how we have this intention of sharing vulnerably and in process, but not necessarily like the overexposed, right? There's a way in which something feels, there's like a point in which it feels processed enough that it feels safe to share. And there's also a point where like, you know, you're crying in your bed for hours and you're like, I'm not, that's not podcast ready.
So, um, . Yeah. So anyways, I'm in this weird place, pat, guys.
Well, I'm glad that you're bringing it out into the open because I think it then means that you are, um, essentially, What's the word I'm looking for?
It's moving.
Yeah. And I also think there's no, not addressing this.
Yeah, yeah,
Yeah. It's. Yeah. And it's moving. Um, yeah. And I do believe in like, speaking things into existence, but sometimes that requires first like acknowledging and your being aware, like awareness of like what's actually happening and acknowledging where it's painful and difficult.
the question that I kept a hearing in my head from like Spirit was like, what do you want? That's the question. That it's, that question has been loud for a while, but then. Throughout the whole summit. And then like these couple days afterwards, I have just kept hearing like, what do you want? What do you want?
And that, and, and that what's interesting is, and I think maybe this is why I felt ready to speak about all the podcasts, is because I feel like, oh, I know the answer. But for a while there I could hear that question when I was like, I don't know, not this, not this impossible balance and juggling and like spinning of plates, but also like, I don't know.
And the true, and I think this is true for a lot of us, where situations just feel impossible and shitty and overwhelming. Um, not like, it doesn't mean to imply that like motherhood felt shitty all the time, but like this particular, like the issue of balance felt really overwhelming, has felt overwhelming for a while.
And, and just confusing and, um, and like on the spectrum from like mildly frustrating to overwhelming and, uh, . And part of the problem is that I didn't know what I wanted because I was unwilling. I wasn't yet ready to admit to myself what I wanted was
Yeah.
childcare.
yeah. Totally. I think, I mean, this is a little bit of an aside, but I do wonder if, um, you could do like you just did a summit on business. You could do a summit on like, speaking specifically about motherhood and business. I think that would be, or we could have more guests on the
So do you remember Emily? Uh,
Yeah.
yeah. So she has a, um, a membership on this called The Mother Mind. Um, and I was telling her recently that I was like, you should do a summit about mother and business. So I would like to go be a speaker at Emily's Summit. I think I'm cooked on summits for a minute, but I, me, Emily might do one in a couple
Yeah. Cuz I think there's just such power and I think and yeah, and gathering and with people and that like, what do you call it? What do you call it when a bunch of people get together and share their idea? the beat, like, oh my god. Sorry guys hitting a wall.
is the, this is the jet lag version of
totally is.
Hi, mind The hive mind. Yes, the hive mind. Um, uh, and just have more conversations. And then, yeah, just seeing how other people do it too, I think's always
yeah. Well, and I think, oh, sorry. Go ahead. Love.
well, I'm, I was gonna pivot so you continue your thought.
Oh, no, I, I was, I think I was just really, I think I wanna just underscore that a big takeaway for me is if things feel like that, like just like. I keep bumping up against this wall. I keep bumping up against this wall. I keep bumping up against this wall. It probably is because you don't know what you want because you're actually hiding.
F you're hiding from yourself what you want because for some reason it doesn't feel safe. Maybe cuz it seems impossible or dangerous or like it will hurt someone. But I think that feeling of like just continuing to bump into the same thing sometimes is about a lack of clarity
Or honesty or
or honesty around, there's like some, there's like some buffering that's happening for self-preservation around what you really
Yeah. I'm gonna tuck that into my back pocket cuz uh, I think that'll, next time that happens to me, I can come back and be like, and check, check and be like, is this it? Um, I was gonna pivot and talk about what's so interesting is like, huh, I do find it fascinating the obligation that we feel towards family.
Because something that I left with, I just, I left Taiwan with was this idea of also like, what is my responsibility to my parents? Something that I am
That's also reoccurring.
also reoccurring also a theme. Um, It's just interesting. Yeah. I think I feel a lot of guilt, actually. Not different. I mean, it's, it's very different, but also not different.
This idea of like, it is about obligation to family and then guilt when we maybe can't, um, deliver or don't want to deliver or whatever, whatever. And I think because I don't have, it's really interesting. I don't think my brother feels the same way because he has kids. So in his mind it's very clear, like, I have a priority.
Kids are number one, sorry, and I, I don't have the password. You take care. And like, that's kind of, I wouldn't say acceptable.
Yeah. I think especially because your parents live so far away from your brother. Right. It's like maybe if your parents still lived in LA it would be like, okay, you have, I have the ki I ha like I have kids and so I have to include my grandparent, I have to include the grandparents. And so I think it, that can go either way, but especially when it's such a bar geography, it's like, yeah, I, my, my kids are in school.
I
yeah.
be here for them.
yes, exactly. Oh man. There was some family drama. This, this, this trip. It wouldn't be a family trip without some drama. But, um, uh, yeah, I mean, I think I, I kinda wanna pose a question to you, which is like, what, I don't know how to decide what is my responsibility and what is my responsibility and obligation and what is not?
And that's like just a question of, of like where, how does one decipher? So that's like something I've been thinking about. But I will say something that was really interesting to me was that my cousin who same age as me, who I'm very close to, I was just, you know, we were just catching up. I'm like, how you doing?
She's like, you. I'm just kind of dealing with like the stuff that is normal to deal with at our age, which is like, which is thinking about my parents' health. Like that's, that's like, she said it as if that was like, you know, it's a, it's a, it's a, it's, you reach a certain phase and age in your life where that's something that you, that everyone's just considering.
Mm-hmm.
And that was really interesting to me because I've spent my entire life worrying and also caring at some point and, or, or being the adult in my parents' relationship. Like that was like my childhood and that was inappropriate because that was not my job.
yeah.
But now that I'm, I've turned 39 this year, I'm just, you know, basically I've already in my mind, rounded up to 40.
I'm like, oh, this feels different actually. Like, I felt resentful of that in the past. , but now it actually feels like it's just the circle of life. Like now there isn't resentment. Now it's like, oh yeah, this is what happens. Your parents give you, give you life and at some point they get old and they truly are innocently incapable of, they'll have to take care of themselves in some way.
Like their, their, their capacities are aren't changing and failing. And so I don't know. In a way it was just like, I've been holding onto this resentment thinking like, oh, well I'm still doing what I've been doing. But there was something really that shifted in this idea of like, oh, actually no, this is the Europe now I'm at the age where this is the appropriate response to like, take care of my parents.
Well, what I'm hearing is like, interestingly what I'm hearing is like permission to be invested in your parents' health, which I know sounds like kind of weird, but it's
that's exactly
long you had to have, be really protective about how much you allow yourself to care, because the tendency was to over overextend yourself. And so it sounds like your cousin gave you a sense of, what I'm hearing is like trusting your own boundaries that you've already learned to set over all these years, and then the permission to be like, oh yeah, it's actually okay that I.
Care about this. It's not a sign of anything other
It's not a sign of like cross boundaries of being taken advantage of, of like, uh, whatever, whatever. Yeah. That's exactly what it is. It's like this permission also, like once the resentment's gone, I may like, this is what sovereignty feels like. It's like once the story or the resentment is gone, what I was left with was, was this realization of like, oh, I want to care for my parents, like
hmm.
So, uh, but also,
Can I actually speak to something on that quick? Because I think that's so important that when, when thi when we are motivated by obligation, then resentment shows up.
Mm-hmm.
And even if some part of us might want to do the thing, resentment gets in the way. Because that was also something I noticed yesterday as I was like a weepy mess of like, oh, I don't, you know, whatever, all the things I've already been talking about.
There was one point where I like pulled both kids onto the couch and like started reading this chapter book to them and I could already feel how different that felt because it felt more sovereign and it felt more like motivated by choice and less obligation, which of course then is also way better for them.
So I just, I think that this thing you're speaking to of like unhooking from resentment, which sometimes is to feel the resentment and sometimes is to just be like, no, I don't need it anymore. Is such a, can be such a powerful way of realizing it. Just giving you space to actually do the very thing that you think you have to do anyway.
Totally. Exactly. Yeah. And this is like, this is, yeah, this is, it's huge. It, it, it, to me, it's like an energetic shift in, in, of like sovereignty. It's like, um, it's subtle but also huge. And I think we've talked about this on the show before, I've re re referenced this book that I have not completely read about power versus force.
It's called like, it's like power versus force. So like, when you're doing something out of force, it, it covers up your, even if you really do wanna do, do the, do the damn thing, it but that feeling of meaning to force to do it. You don't feel the need, like the true desire that's actually there, because all you can think about is like the force.
But once you remove the force, then your true desire will show itself. And oftentimes you'll be pleasantly surprised to be like, oh, actually, I, I do wanna do this. I do wanna write the paper. I do wanna call my, uh, grandma who's sick. I didn't think I, I, you know, but you was covered up by force or like obligation or whatever.
So anyway, the whole book, the premise of the book is like, just noticing energetically in your body is this coming from a place of power or force? And, and when you remove the force, oftentimes what's left is power. And I think about that in my business a lot. Is that like, what is the energetic quality of what, how I'm doing this is, am I, is this coming from a place of power or, or force?
And it's, I can oftentimes it's very feel it very clearly.
Yeah, yeah. I really like that language because I know what you're, I know what you're
Yeah. Yeah. Because the, the irony is that sometimes the action is exactly the same Damn action.
Abso, let's always say the thing is not the thing. It's a thousand percent. Yes.
yes. So, um, gosh, where were we, where, where were we with this whole parental thing? Um, oh, right. This is what I wanted to a, it was, this was just kinda like a, a life advice thing. It's like my dad, so my parents are in their seventies. My dad's pretty unhealthy, and every time I bring up his health, he, um, he says, he just shuts me down. He says, oh, you worry too much, are you, or, or, or he will just get annoyed and like, grumpy old man and be like, you worry too much. Or he, he, it's like just bringing up the topic makes him kind of shut, shut you out.
It's like, if you're gonna talk to me about this, I'm not gonna talk to you.
Mm.
So I feel, so my whole, I I, I'm dancing between this thing of like, learning. Cause I think with my parents, a lot of it has been learning. Like they're adults, they make their own decisions. I can't change them. Um, they need to like learn for themselves, you know, I can't enable them, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah.
But also, and then if he doesn't wanna hear it, right, like, maybe I can't force it. You, you can't change someone who isn't ready to hear
right, right.
Um, but then the
Can I ask, are you trying to ask him like, what's the deal with your health, or are you trying to have conversations about like, please drink water.
both, both. It's like, if he has, I mean, it's like if he's staying up until six in the morning and then like sleeping all day, which he does often. , I will ask like, what's up? And he'll be like, nothing, nothing. Like, you worry too much like Ed, blah, blah, blah, blah. Like, he just tries to really play it off. And the, it's like it, and it, yeah, it sucks.
It sucks because it means that if I wanna have a conversation with my dad, I can't talk to him about his health
Yeah.
which is like the main thing that I'm talking about. And also, sometimes it'll be like, Hey, um, I'm concerned that like maybe you're eating like way too much sugar or something or like, too, and, um, that also is annoying.
Hmm. I wanna give you permission to not have to be the one to tell him what to eat or like things that would make his life better, because,
Well, I wouldn't say that, that any permission for that. If anything, I'm probably a nag because
well, yeah. No, I mean, I, I'm sorry, what? I, go ahead. You, I mean, interrupt you. Go ahead. See what you saying.
Oh, just that like, being nagged is never fun, and I know I can't help myself sometimes. Like that's how I come in. I'm just like, dad, like,
Oh, yeah, yeah,
need to knock, get the fuck up. I don't say it like that, but I, I'm definitely nagging him sometimes and, and I almost sometimes can't help it.
yeah. Especially because he's like walking you up from the bigger conversation, right? It's like, I wanna have this actual conversation about your health and you're not letting me, so the least I can do is be like, come in with these quick jabs of like, okay, but at least stop, like if you're not gonna sleep, right?
Or like, if you're, you're not talking about your mental health or what, like at least then like, drink some water or have a plant
right. Exactly.
so yeah, I, I think that, I mean, uh, I just think it makes sense because he's locking you out and so you're just trying to like find a like sneaky way to like,
Yeah.
it's almost like the image I have as like what a parent like puts like broccoli in the um,
in. In the like pancake or something, you know, like you're like trying, there's like this big elephant in the room that he won't let you talk about. So you're trying to like
sneak it in. Yeah. Trick them in. Yeah. I, I don't know if I'm gonna like, find any solutions in, in, you know, this, this episode of the podcast, but I think really what I'm interested in is also just like observing from afar the cycle of life, which is that,
Hmm.
um, our parents end up being like children
Yeah.
which is, I, I mean, especially in my grandparents, they're like, really like children now. So they're all like in their nineties. I don't, I don't know what feels important to me about this, but it's like, maybe it's about like humility because your parents take care of you all your life and then like that moment when they're unable to, and you have to take care of them, there's this feeling of. um, maybe even gratitude in some way in a weird way because you're like, oh, this is what you did for me when I was shitting in my diapers,
Yeah.
But I don't know. I
an extra layer of it for you too. Just we've talked about this before, but like, because your parents are so far away and so there's like the intensity of like being there and then being gone and also,
it makes it definitely more, more complicated cuz then I also feel like I'm there for a short time and I'm like, I can't just come in there for, you know, six weeks and then be bossy as fuck. Cuz that's just annoying. Like, it, it's, it's presumptuous and kind of unfair to them.
and also you're also have to be fair to yourself, right? Which is like you're worried or you care, or you wanna like feel comfortable that they have what they need or while you're gone, like. . It's a tough,
Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yes, exactly. And to make this universal for listeners, like I, again, I bring this up because there's a lot of people out there who can relate to your struggle of like being a mom and having other, being ambitious or having other passions, or just not wanting to fucking hang out with your kids all the time.
And then feeling guilty about it, right? Like that's a very real thing. And I think there's another subsection of people, or not even another subsection, but like everyone I think, will go through a phase in their life.
Yeah.
If your parents are young right now, and this doesn't relate to you, cool, but like it's gonna happen , like it's gonna happen.
And assuming you have a caretaker in your life that you, uh, I was gonna say that you are close to, but sometimes you don't gotta be close to 'em. Sometimes you'd be totally estranged from your parent and then you find out they're fucking dying and then you feel like you need to step up.
Right. Or the even. Or, or at the very least, process it, right. It's like even if you're estranged and that's a boundary that you keep, that's still a huge emotional thing to process. Yeah, yeah,
this is, this is like the human experience. Like this comes up a lot and I think it's just a challenging thing. And also I think that's why like health matters to me. So I like, one of my biggest motivating factors for being healthy is because I don't wanna be a burden on anyone.
And I just see like, what a huge difference it makes when a parent. So again, I, I'm like, you know, entering my forties and so a lot of my friends are the same age where um, God, it's just really weird when you get older and like people. Dying
Yeah.
really weird, but like when I was like in my twenties.
Well also, I was gonna say, I think another element of all of this is that all of your grandparents are alive,
Yeah. So
which is bonkers. You know, I mean like amazing, but totally outside the dorm. Like none of my grand, or between Nick and I both, we have, he has one grandmother who's still around and Awesome. We get to see, she hangs up with the kids all the time.
But like, I think that also adds, it's like, I feel like it makes it closer in the sense that when you, like you were talking about like. , they're kind of physical frailties, like, so apparent, right? Whereas like my grandparents are, aren't around to be to, to like have that be a part of. Um, but then also, um, my grandparents, a bunch of my three of my grandparents died in my twenties.
So like, I had this, like, I dealt with some of the, like, um, I had a version like I remember my great-aunt who was really, really, really close to, she died when I was like 24. And I remember it being, it like completely rocked my, I had a grandmother die when I was in middle school. But when my great-aunt died, it really rocked my world because I really was so sad to lose her.
And also I like looked up around me and I was like, oh, you're all gonna die. It was like my grandparents and my aunts and uncle, right? Like, if we follow chronology, I have my mom's one of 10. I have a big, I was like, I'm gonna bury all of
Oh my God,
And it was like,
A crazy
like
existential like crisis moment. Yeah, that's a, that's a lot to take in.
which like, clearly that's how I do it is go straight for the existential crisis. Um, but anyway, so I feel like for you there's this like strange combination of like somehow a delay and also a like greater presence
Yeah. That's a great way of putting it. I think at the end of the day though, what we've we're both struggling with is this idea of like, like our guilt and our shame and feeling like a bad person. That's really all it comes down to. Like that's what it, it's, it always is just like, uh, the original sin shit. Like, you know, I feel like, you know, you feel like a bad mom, I feel like a bad daughter or, you know, I'm not there to like do my part.
Like we feel like there's this not obligation. I don't know if you feel an obligation, but there's this, uh, version of motherhood that you want to aspire to or whatever. And for me it's like, yeah, same thing with being just a.
Well, and I also think there's some confusion, which is like, like what, what is the standard of like best care, right? Either for children or for our, our aging parents, you know, for your aging parents. Um, my mom listens. She's not aging for the record.
I know. I was gonna Yeah, I
a baby
was totally thinking about that. Like, she, I mean that's, and that's the thing about like, your, your mom is like, she's healthy, you know, she's got a to yoga studios, like that's,
I mean, she was super young, so it's like she's got the combo of being, but,
That's a, that's a blessing. Like that's, that's a huge blessing.
Yeah, I mean, I, I, yeah, I feel that a lot. Um,
Well, it's also interesting cuz you could argue that that wasn't a, I mean, she had you when she was, when you, when she was really young. So like, that's it. It's interesting, right? Like, there's that story of like, who's to say what's good or bad? like
right?
you don't know when it's hap we can have a story about, well, you know, it's really bad that, you know, you have a kid when you're young.
But I don't know, it kind of works out later on.
Yes, yes, yes, yes. And that's the thing my mom has talked about before, like, um, for a couple different reasons. But I think, um, I think there's, it's hard, it's hard to know what you want for all the reasons we discussed about guilt and shame, it's hard to know like what you want for yourself, but it's hard to know what you actually think is best.
Right? Because if I, if some part of me wanted to. Have more time to work. But also if I actually genuinely thought that it was best for my kids, like maybe like one of my kids was having like a really difficult experience, then I would be like, okay, I want to work, but I genuinely think it's best for them if I am not working right now and so I'm gonna pause my business to parent full-time, that would be a sacrifice that I would actually be like totally a thousand percent
Yeah. Yeah. Be clear. Yeah.
And so I think that there's also some conflict for both of us, um, around knowing what you want and then also knowing what you think is best. And then for, for your parents or for my kids, and then figuring out the best, the best combo
Yes, that is, I'm like, I was nodding very vigorously guys earlier, because I think it's about not no knowing. I think my story is like, , uh, God, what was my story? I just had a second ago in my head? Um, oh yeah. Like, is it actually best that I step in? Because in the past sometimes that's just been me trying to like, it's been co-dependent, micromanaging, and it actually hasn't been helpful.
And then I'm like, but also, yeah, I don't know. I really don't know what's best. And then I'm like, but also like, um, it seems very unreasonable that I would be there. It might be best if I'm there to go with my dad to his doctoral appointment, you know, and
Well, so maybe a question you could ask yourself is like, is that separation of like, what do you want for yourself? What do you want your, what do you, what do you want? And then also like, what do you think your parents need?
Mm-hmm.
And then maybe in there you try to figure out what's best for everybody, but maybe.
maybe you've already done this, but somehow separating the two questions feels
spacious.
actually gonna write this down. Hold on. what was it? What do I want? And then what do my parents want?
and what do your, what do you think your parents need?
Mm-hmm.
And then seeing them separately and then out of that, what, like if your parents' health, like what do you want, I think is twofold. Cuz on one level it's the question of like, if your parents' health weren't involved at all, what would you want in terms of how often you went
Mm-hmm.
And then also like what do you want in terms of like, I wanna freaking know what's going on with my dad staying up till 6:00 AM Right.
You know what I mean? Like answer it in all the ways that it relates to the
Mm-hmm.
And then also what do you think that they need and what do you think? And then from there, maybe. , because this is the tricky thing about co-dependence, right? Because that's basically the secretly two hours in. This is an episode about co-dependence, right? for both of
Yes. Well, cause I was just about to say like, whatever these questions are, you can flip it and ask that about your kids. What is it that you want? And then what is it that you think your kids need? Because that's in, I think that's very interesting because some of what you want for your, or the stuff that you do for your kids, that's actually, you know, it's comp.
Like you think that that's what they need, but they don't actually need that. You're just worried that if you don't do that
Also, I think there's an even deeper subconscious story that we're like starting to unpack a little, which is that what I, um, which is that whatever I wanted was inherently op oppositional to what my kids need,
oppositional whatever. Well, yes, I have the same story. Same story. Like, because what if, what I, yeah, because
if I want it, it must be somehow damaging to
bad for them,
bad for them.
huh? Yeah. Mm-hmm. . Yeah. Yeah.
that one's not surface level, but I can feel it running the system underneath now that I've been sitting deeper in this question for a little while. Um, but, but also I think that's kind, which makes sense. Cause that's like kind of codependency whole thing, right? It's like the, we wanna, our model of love is to like take care of other people and sacrifice what we want or what we need.
And that's how we establish that we're worthy of love.
Yeah. Yep. I'm thinking about, so listeners, we had Melanie Beatie on the show. She was the amazing author of Co-Dependent No More. You can go back in, check out that episode. Cause I thought it was really great. But her definition that she's of codependency, that she summed up so well, was like, gosh, maybe you can help me remember.
It's like codependency is when you consistently, yeah. When you consistently choose someone else over yourself.
I mean, you love someone,
you love someone else more, more than you love yourself.
or was it choose, I guess it was choose. I guess it was choose,
Um, yeah. When you, when,
someone else over yourself.
yeah. And I think there's something more to that, but I don't know. Something about that was super helpful,
yeah. And I think it gets confusing when, and she even said this in the show, it gets confusing when you're looking at a dynamic like kids that are like
they, you know, But I think you're, what you're, your, the situation you're seeing with your parents is the same thing. It's like there is a level of dependency that starts to creep in as our parents', um, health fails in the same way that like, birdie cannot wipe her own bump.
Right? , like the girl literally hollers for me
Yeah.
good job going poop, you know,
Yep, yep, yep, yep.
Um, so that is, but that doesn't mean codependency isn't showing up there. It just makes it harder to find because it's like there is dependency. And also we wanna avoid codependency,
There is dependency. Yeah. And also, and also getting a nanny or you know, someone hiring someone to wipe her butt in the hours that you're working . Like, it's totally appropriate, but it can be hard to swallow that. Yeah.
Yeah, absolutely.
Um, yeah.
Should we do joy?
Yes. Let's do it.
All right, my friend.
What's bringing you joy right now?
I already knew my answer actually before I thought. I just felt like it was kind of hard to articulate. Um, and I would like to expand on this more, I think on another episode, but I have really just, um, it's been a, like a whirlwind past couple months and I feel like I've really, um, turned a corner
Mm.
for my breakup and just all the change. And there may be another corner to turn, like it's too early. There's still so much change to come, so who knows? Like there'll be many corners to turn. But like, I don't know if this is a joy. It doesn't feel like exuberant joy. It feels more just like deep humility.
But I now see in retrospect as I've turned this corner, of like being in a really hard place and coming out of it and like being in a pretty pretty okay space of love and possibility. And I don't know, there's all this like good stuff that that's coming and I can feel it that I've been held every fucking step of the way.
And I really mean by like the people in my life and you being one of them. And then my family who received me when I was being a huge cunt because I was like just a, a mess. And like my friends now, Nicole and her amazing partner Will, who are just like housing me as I like, turn their house upside down because I'm have all this shit.
It just like the little and all of so many people and also like covid coming in right at the same time to give me like, like that rest that I needed and just like, um, Yeah. Lots of friends. I think it's, God honestly is like what it feels like. And I think back to this story, and we're gonna reference another episode that I thought was really beautiful.
Cher Arnaud. This was from way Back in the Vault, but she told the story about her daughter getting into a really bad accident, and I'm like, kind of maybe, possibly d almost dying. And she, Cher had to like rush to the hospital to get to her. And she, she said something like, I just, oh God. She said something about being held the whole way through that whole thing.
She's like, she's like, I just floated through the whole process. And she said it probably more eloquently than that. Um, but that really stuck with me. And then she told us this cool story about how that like happened and it stuck with me and I thought about that. I'm like, oh, I was going through this really hard time, but I don't know, maybe I didn't need to be so scared after all because. Like, God, like never let me fall. I don't know how else to say it. Like I don't know else else to say it. And so, yeah. I'm just so grateful.
Oh,
beyond grateful, like very, yeah. Getting choked up and also excited to see what's to come. I mean, and I, and my very cynical mind was like, I wanna say this in case I die in a car accident, on my road trip because I have that fear and at least I have it on
play this at your funeral then if that
I have it on record that I want my people to know. I don't know that I've, like, I'm living a, a, be that I've lived a beautiful life and then I appreciate it. Yeah. So a very cynical thought, but that is where my mind
I love it. And I love you. Ugh. Mm. I'm really, really, really happy that you are feeling, um, a bit of lightness.
Yeah, thanks. Me too. And I could, I dunno, podcast listeners are probably so sick of me and us, like talking about how much we love each other and how, and whatever. But it has to be said like, you have been like just such a, um, do you, what do you call that? Like a steady, consistent presence in all of this That has a huge, played a huge, huge, huge, huge, huge role.
And so thank you
easiest thing in the world. um, my joy is, um, . My joy is silly. So I'm glad that I let you go first because yours was so beautiful and earnest. And my joy is that my kids are fucking bonkers and hilarious. So last night, Birdie has really vivid dream sometimes. And so Birdie and Diddy desie both somehow ended up in our bed at the exact same time, which doesn't usually happen.
And so we had to like get, you know, snug them for a minute and then like drop them back. So I wrote Desie back. Nick brought birdie back, and as I'm tucking in Desie, I hear birdie like sobbing across the hallway, just like hysterical sobbing. So I go over to like, you know, see what's up. And she is beside herself because she's convinced that there's a crab in her bed that is pinching her
uh,
and she just like, is like losing it and to the point, and Nick's like, no, see I got the crab. It's fine. I'll take it downstairs. And she goes, but then the crab, it was this whole thing and to the point that I had to lay down next to her and then, um, tell, and like Nick had to go downstairs to, uh, ferry the crab outside.
And then as I was laying down next to Birdie, I had to like be like, don't worry, dad's setting the crab traps so no more crabs can come inside
She's gonna believe in crab traps. Like into her adulthood, by the
this, this was the best part. Was it? Then she woke up the next morning and like her first question was, can I see the crab
Yep.
And Nick Dad of the year immediately pulls out like, oh, well you have to keep them very hidden or else the squirrels will ruin them. Like, didn't miss a beat.
Yes. He was ready for that.
She was ready. It was really great, and the whole thing to was just like birdie's bedtime antics crack me up. I think I shared in the podcast how the other night she had a crying, Ja, because she couldn't pet Cerus the three-headed guard dog of the underworld. She's just such a hilarious creature, specifically at bedtime.
And um, I, I love it.
I mean,
laughing about the crabs all day because then it came up again at night. Tonight. She had like a bunch of questions at dinner. She was like asking Nick what he did with the crabs and it was something I brought them to the ocean so that they would be with their crabs like,
I mean, this feels like some spiritual shit to me too though. Like, just like the visuals, the like that she said it was like her imagination, like having just like a really open consciousness of being able, like just see
Oh no. Oh, this was the other thing. I'm telling Brady stories. This girl is like bonkers tapped in. She also, this was the day that I cried all day about like grieving this chapter of motherhood and the crab is the whole symbol of the mother. And that was the night that she had the dream about the crab pinching her.
So
Whoa.
yeah. Yeah. And tonight we were at dinner and for some reason I said something about worry and how like worry is, um, is not like, it's a, it's a, it doesn't, we just give and give. It doesn't do anything for us. Um, I don't know why, but it made sense in some context. And Birdie looks up at me and she goes, yeah, the earth game is supposed to be fun.
Oh my God. Oh my. Did you like when she says stuff like that, you like stopping your tracks,
Yes, because she was, first of all, she said it with like a mouthful of shrimp tacos. So I had to like ask her three times. And then the third time I finally heard her, so that also adds to hilarity. She goes, the earth game is supposed to be fun. And I was like, I like got all teared up. It was like, it's supposed to be fun.
I
wanna get that like tattooed on my arm. The earth game
The earth game is supposed to be fun. And then later I asked her, I said, Bernie, who told you to, who told you to say the earth game? Or like, who told you to say that? And she goes The Earth.
Wow.
And I was like, oh, well yeah, dove. Of course the earth is like, Hey dummy, this game's supposed to be fun.
Why are you so stressed out?
dude. Sorry, I'm just like sitting in this Cause it's, that feels like such a wonderful message for all of us. And also like when I meet Bernie in person, I'm gonna like ask her for life advice.
I mean, you could, you might get a poop joke, but also
equally awesome. You know? You know I love a good poop joke,
right. That's true. That's true.
Oh wow. That's really cool.
your game is supposed to be fun.
Yeah.
Maybe that's the name of this episode.
Yeah. Maybe. I don't know. I feel like there's something about the circle of life and parenthood and child. Yeah. I don't know. Parent,
I mean, we had actual topics of discussion,
yeah.
just like that phrase.
Um, all right.
listeners,
Wow. Again, I was so tired. And the fact that we've made it for this amount of time shows just how much I love talking to you. So, um, if you like this episode,
tell your friends about
tell your friends, like, subscribe, leave, leave a review.
I feel like our reviews have been a little bit, it's been a desert recently, so if you like the show, let us know because we love reading about it and it really, um, just like gives me Yeah. Something to look at when I'm in a bad mood.
I mean, if that's not a good reason to leave a
Yeah. Um, all yes. Anything else? Tag us on the social medias. Follow us if you're not already. Is there anything else? Oh, yeah. We wanna be on your podcast. We wanna be on other people's podcast, so I think we make awesome guests. Hook us up if you know of a good connect.
Yeah. And come, uh, come be a villain with me
Oh yes. Go do that. Uh, now I'm thinking I need that too, because like bill and error might include sometimes like I had to apply the same thing to myself. Am I ready to be a bad daughter? Am I willing and ready to
Mm.
daughter? Ooh, yeah.
Yeah.
All right. I love you.
Love you.
Bye.