Love is the power, Brazil
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200
Eva: [00:00:00] Kylie, it's so good to be back with you! Yay!
Kyley: Hello, my love!
Eva: And for our 200th episode, no less! Woop woop woop woop woop woop woop! We, I can't believe we're here. It's quite a feat, I would say.
Kyley: 200 episodes, like, holy shit.
Eva: I was actually just remembering before we recorded like how nervous I used to be when we first started and I would actually do like all of this preparation and, and I would have to like, uh, yeah, it was just so much more of an [00:01:00] ordeal because we were sweet and new and little baby podcasters and, and, and new in our friendship and, Um, no, it's just like, as listeners know, because we gush about all the time, one of my favorite things on earth.
Eva: And I'm so happy that I get to meet with you and everybody and all the listeners every week. And, um,
Kyley: You know what's the thing? Yeah.
Eva: started
Kyley: We're just getting started, you know, uh, we have not really, we were speaking with us offline the other day, but like when we first started this show, I don't know how much listeners realize this, but like, we weren't besties. We like only kind of, sort of knew each other. Like it was like,
Eva: Well, we really liked each other, but we didn't have, yeah, we didn't
Kyley: I was gonna say, it's like if you're in, if you, if you, if you went to college and like, see someone cool across the quad and you're like, that girl, I want to be friends with that girl. It was like, we were at that stage, you know,
Eva: Yes.
Kyley: and then decided to just make a podcast together. Um, and, and so there's [00:02:00] a way that these 200 episodes are also, um, like, they're also the story of two women becoming best friends.
Eva: Yeah. It's so sweet. It's so cute. We're so cute.
Kyley: Yes. I have a, I have a very sweet client who recently started listening to the podcast and she's like, I'm starting with the beginning. And I was like, Oh, dear God. Interesting. Bold move.
Eva: Yeah, bold move. Um, because we've gone through so much. We've learned a lot. We've gone through different iterations of our life. We've shed a gazillion costumes, you know, like death and rebirth. I mean, children have been like raised and relationships have started and ended and moves across country and country.
Eva: It's just so
Kyley: I know you've lived on like, in like six different places while we've recorded the show. I've been in the same place. I've been in the same place, uh, physically. Yeah.
Eva: So anyway, thank you so
Kyley: I got fired on the show.
Eva: yeah. You got fired on the show. Uh huh. Yeah. [00:03:00] Yeah. You were starting your business essentially like me. It was had already started, but you know, it was like you.
Kyley: It had it though. I think I literally think I'd made like 300, but when we started the show,
Eva: Yeah.
Kyley: yeah,
Eva: and now, since now you've, and since then you've launched 50 different programs.
Kyley: It's true.
Eva: Anyway,
Kyley: Yeah, wild, wild. Speaking of different programs, uh, Eva, what do you got for the people? What do you want to share with them?
Eva: yes. Well, in a short couple of weeks, the next Brazil loves the power retreat is happening on March 9th. And, um, I mean, this is my favorite thing in the whole fucking world. It's such a powerful event. It's like the energy of the mountain and all these people gathering from literally across the globe, doing Byron Katie's The Work and dissecting all the unconscious subliminal thoughts that bring us suffering.
Eva: And then like the crazy releases that we do like in a [00:04:00] group. I don't know, these retreats are just, they are a pressure cooker. In, in, but they're a pressure cooker, I will say. But. I think that's what makes them so, and they can also be really gentle and loving and kind, but I think that's what makes them so transformative.
Eva: So if you were like devastated by the state of the world and feeling hopeless and you're like, just want out and you're like, you know, why am I, why am I on planet earth? It's because you probably came here. To, um, transcend your own suffering and be a source and to remember actually that you're a source of love and possibility for this world, which I think can be hard to remember when we're so bogged down by our everyday life and responsibilities and it's hard to put on pants and it's hard just to take care of ourselves.
Eva: And sometimes we just need a moment away, away. Sometimes we just need a moment away. And I've, in my experience, you know, when I first started joining these retreats, um, I always joined because I was going through some sort of trend. [00:05:00] transition or I just knew I needed some clarity or a boost and a lot of times people come because they're also experiencing something, um, big in their life.
Eva: And we all come together and it's just so intimate and like lifelong friendships are made and you get to come and hang out with me in Brazil in this beautiful environment with my amazing partner who I'm madly in love with and um we'll dance and we'll sing and we'll cry and there's an optional ayahuasca ceremony at the end and it's also super ridiculously affordable because that's just like really Important to Tom and how he runs things and I, and I really honor and, you know, sort of respect that so it's only a few weeks away, but we just had two other people sign up earlier this week.
Eva: So it's not too late. You can still join us if you are looking for the inner and outer adventure of a lifetime. Um,
Kyley: gosh, I love listening to you just gush about how excited you are about this. A listener could see [00:06:00] Razeeva is like grinning from ear to ear, like your cheeks are all scrunched up. You're grinning so much as you're talking about this, like, I'm sure people can hear it in your voice, but just watching your energy as you gush about how excited you are about this retreat just made my morning.
Eva: No, thank you. I mean, words cannot express how fucking cool it is here, guys. Like, and Kylie will come one day and she'll tell you in person, but it's like, it is so, you know what, you just got to get here and experience yourself. It's like, it's like magical. And the energy is like strong and it's mystical.
Eva: It's this jungle. It's this Brazil vibe. It's how friendly and supportive everybody is, though. And um, yeah, Where you get to hang out in the Lua Encantado, which is this crazy dome in the, on this mountain, you know, just Surrounded by butterflies and cows and frogs and crickets and there's the ocean that you'll be staying by the ocean is where you'll be and all of that is just [00:07:00] support, support, support, support, support here to help you in your liberation.
Eva: So yes, I'm very excited. I'm glad that you can see that. And, um, if you have any questions about it, just DM me. I'm happy to support you. And we'll talk. Yay.
Kyley: Yay!
Eva: All right. Kylie, what about you? What would you like to share with our beautiful podcast?
Kyley: Any longtime listener knows, or anyone following me on social media knows, last year I went through a heart, total heartbreak, total devastation. I've shared pretty publicly about it. Um, and the thing that got me through it, is Villanera. Right, like the essence of this program that I run called Injury of Villanera that ironically my friend and I ran together the first time around. That is the program, that is the like medicine that got me through heartbreak and helped [00:08:00] that, helped heartbreak turn into something that was healing instead of exclusively devastating. And specifically what I mean is that one of the big things that instead of exclusively devastating. Heartbreak. That the particular way in which that friendship exploded and, you know, the way I was treated at the end taught me is just how deeply my core programming was fawn mode.
Kyley: You know, just how deeply my like core way of being was like, I am in service of everybody around me being happy and taking care of them. Um, and, um, Um, unlearning that is like a thing that I just keep coming back to, and it's like a deeper, deeper service of like being free. And um, that's what Villainer is about, you know?
Kyley: And so Entry to Villainer, which is to say, Entry to Villainer is open now, and I love this [00:09:00] course because it's, because it's held me when I needed to be held, you know? And so I put this little six week journey for us together because I think A lot of the people who tend to come into my spaces also are the kind of people whose primary mode of being is fawn mode, right?
Kyley: It's like my, my life is to fawn over you, be in devotion to you. Whatever you need is what I need. And, um, and we put up with a lot of bad treatment. We don't advocate for ourselves. We don't even know that we want to advocate for ourselves. Um, and It's not, it's not fair to our little tender hearts. We deserve better.
Kyley: So, Until Your Villainery is open. And it's, it's my favorite. And it, and I love it, because it's loved me. And I want us all to feel, so I want you to have it too. So come be a villain with me.
Eva: Mm. Yes. [00:10:00] Okay. I love this. I think this program is super important. I mean, I know it can apply to me, especially when I'm going through something really hard. It's actually when I'm like, the trauma has kicked up again. I revert back to my fawning or freezing, uh, tendencies, but I think the medicine offered in this program is incredibly, it's It's like about stepping into your own power and being able like to take up space and I think that's hard for a lot of us, especially as we like maybe up level and or shed old skin and come into a new we go through these uncomfortable.
Eva: phases of transformation. And enter your villain era. I mean, you're speaking it from such a tender place, but it also has like a very fierce energy about that. And you're oftentimes helping me with that, you know, by coming in, being, coming into my boldness and my like, or, well, I'm already irreverent, but you know, being even [00:11:00] more, more.
Eva: More myself and,
Kyley: Because, yes, because,
Eva: friendship.
Kyley: uh, a friend of mine was actually helping, was reminding me just the other day of how much this like, Thread runs through everything I do that is like nothing's impossible. What do you want? Yeah, it's fucking possible which both from like a mystical standpoint, but also just practically nothing is impossible.
Kyley: What do you want? Like let's let's make let's make the path to it But that kind of like bold sexy magnetic charismatic nothing is impossible kind of way of being that I think a lot of us yearn for It comes from permission to be tender and messy and scared. Like, the way that we get that is to love the shit out of the parts of ourselves that we think are the problem.
Kyley: Right? That we think are standing in the way. Like, the messy, too much, vulnerable, chaotic, scared. Like, those monstrous villainous parts. [00:12:00] are the key to the sexy, bold, invincible version of you. They're not in the way. They are the fucking answer.
Eva: yeah.
Kyley: yeah. Come be tender, messy, sexy, fucking badass bitches with me.
Eva: Yes, that is the vibe and that is something that I think you do very well. So, Villanera folks, get on it.
Kyley: Yes. Doors close at the end of, uh, March, March 3rd. So. Giddy up.
Kyley: All right, Kyley, why don't you explain to our beautiful audience what the topic is today? If you can. It's kind of, it's, it's a work in progress. We're figuring it out.
So I have like the, I have an observation that feels really big in my life recently, and I want to unpack it and try to like live it more deeply. And it starts with the thread of this idea that people talk about all the time, that fear and [00:13:00] excitement are the same thing, right? They're two sides of the same coin.
Kyley: It's actually people say it's like same frequency or same energy. And, and I think there's, there's some truth in that. And if we take that idea, which we can unpack a little bit more, and then we. Bring it over to this new awareness is that I realized being overwhelmed, which I've been talking about on the show quite a bit this season and experiencing overflow, like a bun, like the abundance are also actually the same thing.
Kyley: And it's a matter of like perspective or nervous system or mindset. There are also two sides of the same coin, which means. There's a little bit of agency when you're like basically when I'm feeling overwhelmed There's a way that I actually just shift and real experience it as overwhelmed or sorry overflow and abundance in a way That's similar to fear has the potential to just shift and be excitement if we let it and part of [00:14:00] what I want to unpack on the show is how What the, yeah, how to actually live in that
Eva: How to do that. Yeah. So in order to do that, I think we need to rewind a little bit and talk about this idea Fear and excitement. Fear is actually just excitement, or they're the same energy, because whenever people say that, like, that's never really resonated with me. I'm like, how is it the same? I don't, I don't experience them as the same, so I'm wondering if you could talk a little bit more about that.
Eva: Mm-hmm
Kyley: This is interesting to me too because I don't think I have always experienced them the same in large part because, uh, I am like the, often the kind of person who just takes a leap out into thin air and trust that I'll figure out how to fly. Like that's kind of my MO, right? It's like, I am a, I am a. I had, I had a bolt of inspiration and now I'm selling a six month program and I'll figure it out as I go, kind of person.
Kyley: Um, and [00:15:00] Uh, and so I have, I have intellectually understood that, but not experienced it that much until recently because as I have been more, more recently, I've been watching, like, just like, okay, I've done a ton of healing from my heartbreak and I was really open and vulnerable and I got really hurt. And my heart is like, Hey, so we're scared.
Kyley: Right. And I've been watching a lot of like, Oh, I'm so excited to go out in the world and share vulnerably. And my heart is like, But are we last time that hurt? You want us to do what you want us to be vulnerable out, out, out there again. And so I've been watching this, like, I'll give an example actually.
Kyley: So for villain era, I don't think I've ever been so excited and proud of the like series of emails that I have written for this program. So not to like hype up my email list, but y'all, I just wrote a whole bunch of sexy stories about being a villain and, and like. They're, they're vulnerable, they're honest, they're raw, [00:16:00] they're juicy, like it feels more like a manifesto than a sales campaign, you know?
Kyley: And uh, and then, so I was like very excited to like, write them, and then the idea of actually sharing them made me, I was like, oh, no, they could just sit, they could just sit. They were great, they were so much fun to write. I don't need to share them with anyone because the fun part was just writing. And I just wanted to, like, let them sit in a folder for three weeks.
Kyley: I mean, I didn't. They are out. They're in your inbox.
Eva: But there was a, would you mean there was an element of hiding? Like you were like, okay, like I don't wanna have to be, go and share this and be vulnerable again.
Kyley: yeah, and it was, and, and, it was just, I could feel that I felt afraid. I could feel how, like, what was, it was, like, the, making them was exciting. And then sharing them was really fucking scary.
Eva: being
Kyley: Um, being seen, right? So, like, uh, and then I also sometimes experience it. Yeah, I can give a couple more examples, but it's that.
Kyley: It's [00:17:00] like, it's like the very thing that is exciting is also the thing that's scary. And that's part of why it's exciting, because it's really cool to share your vulnerable self with the world. Like, that's such a sexy experience. And also, it's fucking terrible and awful and terrifying. And it's both.
Kyley: Listeners, I'm moving my, my body back and forth
Eva: Yeah.
Kyley: from one side of the stage to the other. Because it's like, it's both. It is both like to, to, to be, to share your art with the world or your truth with the world. Like it is really exciting. And it's also awful and scary.
Eva: Yes. Okay. This reminds me of one of my favorite quotes that I'm going to butcher. Um, something about how like the thing that we're most afraid of is actually the thing that we want more than anything else. There's it's, it's much more, it's beautiful. It's written much more beautifully than that by this author named Vernon Howard.
Eva: But I have often, I [00:18:00] feel like what you're speaking to is that is that I've often found times found myself being like, The thing that I want the most is actually also the most terrifying thing, and this thing that I'm actually terrified of is actually also the thing that I want. And how they kind of, there is that sort of push, pull
Kyley: Yeah.
Eva: relationship.
Kyley: Yes. Yes. And, and sometimes for me that, that excitement fear dynamics, like I talked about it. About like the writing was exciting and the sharing was scary, but sometimes actually the writing itself sometimes it sometimes that moment the split happens earlier where like I'll have the idea and the idea is exciting and then I go to write it and I can literally feel my body like start to like seize up my ADHD gets all distracted and I have a hard time concentrating and actually writing the thing which is a lovely little protection.
Kyley: Um, But, um, but so like sometimes it's, it's not always about, Oh, and now I had to share it. Sometimes it's like, it has to go from idea to word. And I just, that, that, that part [00:19:00] starts to feel really scary. And so that's a moment where writing is very exciting and fun for me. It's also really terrible and terrifying.
Kyley: And in that moment. I have to like, well, what can, what sometimes serves me best is just sitting in how much my body's seizing up with a little bit of anxiety and fear about the fact that we're gonna go to this place where we look at ourselves truthfully and then put it into words. Like that, that, and I've heard lots of writers speak to this, but that moment happens sometimes earlier and it's similar.
Kyley: Like I have to sit in the edge between it being exciting and scary and maybe in some ways I kind of like, let it be both. so that I can actually write. Because otherwise I'll just stay locked in the fear part and I just kick it down the road and never get to it. Does this, do you relate to this?
Eva: Yes.
Kyley: not writing specifically, but
Eva: Well, I'm thinking of [00:20:00] different examples in my life, and it's like, as you were speaking, what came to me was actually how I feel about almost every plant medicine journey or any kind of like ceremony where it's like. It's exciting, but it's terrifying and, and just sort of sitting on the edge of that and being like, Oh, and I want this, but also, and I, there's like a pull towards it, but it's also like, there's also simultaneously a part of me going like, no, no, no, you know, like,
Kyley: yeah, yeah,
Eva: yeah, that's one example, but another example, I think what you're really speaking to is the universality of like, It is what I'm calling push pull, which, which is something I've actually been thinking about a lot.
Eva: Maybe we'll, I'm not going to be able to get into in this episode, but the universality of like, What is it with us humans as we are experiencing like, um, why the thing that [00:21:00] we, yeah, I mean, it makes sense the thing that is that we love the most is so scary because if we love it, then we're very vulnerable and we're exposed and it means potential risk of loss or grief or humiliation or something.
Eva: Um, and I think people can probably I don't really relate to that, people who are listening, but what I want to bring this back to is, okay, so how is fear actually excitement? Are we speaking to that right now? Are we saying that, like, let's take my plant, going, doing ayahuasca ceremony or something, um, or I'm about to do another, like, mushroom ceremony this weekend.
Eva: It's like, Am I scared or am I excited? It's like, it's like, I can't, it's like, that's kind of like the question. I'm like, am I, and is it both? Or is this, is this an example of like, where it's like, this, this is the same thing. And more importantly, sorry, another question for you, Kylie, is I think like a lot of times bring up, people will bring up this topic of like, [00:22:00] Fear is actually excitement.
Eva: It's because what they're trying to do is they're trying to use this as a way to psych themselves up to get out of fear. It's almost like a tool. This is how I've, I've heard people speak about it. It's like a tool that people do to be like, let me just shift my perspective so that I can move through this situation differently, maybe more, more positively.
Eva: It's trying to be like, it's almost like you're giving yourself a pep talk and being like, okay, yeah, I'm noticing fear in my body, but that doesn't have to be bad because actually fear is also adjacent to anxiety. And so maybe this is a good thing. It's like, it really does feel,
Kyley: to, that was interesting, you said adjacent to anxiety, but you actually meant yeah, adjacent to
Eva: To excitement. Yeah. Mm-hmm . Well, 'cause I've also heard people say anxiety is also excite excitement. Or excitement. Like those two energies are the same. And I,
Kyley: I don't agree with. Sorry. I think, sorry, [00:23:00] yeah, I think anxiety is a buffer emotion. I think anxiety is like protector energy. It's like whatever is living under the anxiety is a thing you are afraid to feel. So anxiety can be a buffer that's protecting you from feeling joy. It can be a buffer that's protecting you from feeling pleasure, just as much as it can protect you from feeling fear or shame.
Kyley: I don't know if it's shame or anger, but I just think it's like static. It's trying to run interference so you don't have to feel. So it could be protecting you from excitement if excitement doesn't feel safe in your nervous system. But I don't think it, it can, it can cover anything.
Eva: I can cover lots of things. Okay. So going back to the, so the fear is like excitement. Yeah. And I also think
Kyley: let me ask you, let me ask you this. Let me ask you this way. Sorry.
Eva: No. Yeah. Go ahead.
Kyley: Can you, is it possible, because this, I think this might help, because I think, I can see how they're still two separate things for you. You're like, yeah, yeah, they're adjacent, right? But let me ask you this. [00:24:00] Can you imagine anything that you're excited about?
Eva: hmm. Mm hmm.
Kyley: And can you imagine that there's no, there's always fear there?
Eva: See, that's so interesting to me. Okay, let me try to imagine something, and maybe listeners, you guys can all follow along, like, try and think of something that you're really excited about, like, so excited about. And how I experienced that, I was thinking about the excitement of, like, the possibilities of, like, what could happen on this mountain that I live on in Brazil.
Eva: Like, we want to turn this into, like, a communal, like, space where people could come and live, and really just expand this, and, Do some really fucking cool things with it. Be a place where people come and like, experience true freedom. And live that as a community. Um, and in that moment, all I [00:25:00] experience is excitement.
Kyley: hmm.
Eva: The fear is an afterthought. It's an afterwards. They don't, they're not existing at the same time. It's like pure excitement. It's joy. It's like, it's only, I only feel fear when I feel like, like, oh, it's not gonna happen. Or this is, you know, unrealistic. Or, or this could turn into a nightmare. Blah, blah, blah, blah.
Kyley: Okay, I just did a little dance. I had to do it silently because I didn't want to hurt Eva, but because you are excited when you imagine What you could do on this mountain because you're excited about the unknown possibility
Eva: Or no, I'm excited about the, is it unknown? I think it's more like, I'm excited about the, is it unknown?
Kyley: it's, well, it's inherently unknown because it's not now, right? It's like you're excited about, you're excited about like what could happen, right? You're excited about the unwritten possibility, right? You're excited about, you're excited about, uh, you're excited about possibility that's not yet known, that's not yet like nailed down, right?
Kyley: When [00:26:00] you're scared, you are scared of possibility and outcome. It's your, it's, that's what it means, but it's the same thing. It's. Either you're excited, because I don't know what's going to happen, but it could be great. Or you're scared, because I don't know what's going to happen, but it could be awful.
Kyley: But it's the same, it's two sides of the same coin, because it's an energetic engagement with What's about to come one has the lens of bad and one has the lens of
Eva: Good,
Kyley: positive possibility. Right. But they're the same because either it's either way, you're just energetically engaging with.
Kyley: Possibility. Mm hmm.
Eva: I could see my brain going into like different configurations of like how that feels true or not true for me a lot. But I think my bigger question is like, so why is this important?
Kyley: Mm
Eva: How is this like helpful, right? Because I [00:27:00] think that's also what you are kind of want to get to is also when we understand that these two are, you know, two sides of the same coin, same as like how overwhelm is actually just overflow.
Eva: Um, why is that? important to you, I
Kyley: I want to go back to the overwhelm overflow piece to answer this question because that's where this is like most alive for me right now. And I think there's, listeners, I've tried to say this part on the show. This is my third try because everything keeps coming in at once in terms of energy and ideas that I want to say, which is very indicative of the very thing I'm speaking to.
Kyley: Right. But I, I can sense. That there's a way for me to opt out of the overwhelmed paradigm that I've been living in for decades, really, right? I've like lovingly, like a little like mouse style, like chewed away the edges of it. It doesn't take up as much space as it wants to, but it's still a pretty prominent [00:28:00] place of suffering for me.
Kyley: And, and there's a way that I can. I can feel the possibility kind of like when, when you're in like a plant medicine journey where you're like, wait, the whole, I could just turn the whole thing upside down and then it would be different, right? It's like, it's this feeling that I can kind of slip out beneath and into a new way of being where overwhelm just dissolves instead of being overwhelmed being a thing that I have to like,
Eva: Continuously manage and take care of and yeah, and that takes over your life.
Kyley: Right. Um, and, and something about this overwhelm is overflow feels like it's this little whisper of come on in here. There's something there's something for you. So to answer your question of why it's that it's like that whisper and I want it and I want to follow it and I want you to be my guide.
Eva: Awesome.
Kyley: lantern next to
Eva: Totally here for it. I, I mean, 'cause this is, I understand the, the significance of this, 'cause that sounds [00:29:00] huge. It is a different paradigm is what you're speaking to. It's like, yeah, we can totally shift how we move through the world. Mm-hmm
Kyley: And I'm going to give a tent. I'm going to give an example that I think will anchor it and make it tangible and Long time listeners know because I've shared quite often that I have had a long history, especially since COVID and having two kids, I've really believed myself to be a shitty friend, right?
Kyley: And having a lot of like guilt and story and overwhelm about like, I'm a bad friend because I don't message people back enough and I don't listen to messages often enough and I don't make plans with people back. It's all about like being overwhelmed by maintaining all these relationships with people.
Kyley: And then the story that I make that overwhelmed mean is like, see, here's all the like data input of like ways you are a bad friend. And it's That self judgment has, I mean I can see it clearly for self judgment, like intellectually I know that that's not, that that's an unkindness and not true, but, and it's come a [00:30:00] long way, and also it's still not gone, right? And the other day, as I was starting to see this overwhelm overflow piece, I started like laughing out loud in my car because I was like, the quote unquote problem, the reason you're overwhelmed around the management of all these relationships is because you have a lot of fucking friends. Like, you have a overflow, a true, genuine abundance of friends.
Kyley: Like, People talk all the time about how hard it is to make friends when you're older, and like, I collect people, like, all the fucking time, and they're like, true, deep, joyful relationships.
Eva: yes. You make a, you, you can make a new friend a week if you wanted to.
Kyley: if I wanted to, and they're like, it's not, it's not a like, they're not even superficial. They're like, rich and beautiful, and, and so I am overwhelmed.
Eva: sorry, I don't, and I think this will get into like the overflow, but this speaks to, I think the. speaks to something really [00:31:00] amazing and rich about your personality. It's like, this is, this is a gift and this is a wonderful thing. And maybe that will relate to how that's actually overflow.
Eva: But what you're speaking to is that you At the current moment, you experience it as overwhelm.
Kyley: I often experience it as overwhelm because it's like you're bad at managing all this. Why do I have so many reasons? Because I'm a good fucking friend. People like me. Turns out I'm fun to be friends with. I collect people, not just because I take care of them and like do the right, actually not because I take care of them and do the right things, but just because like, I'm likable, you know, like, like,
Eva: Okay. And you're like, and as a good friend of yours, I will also add, it's, it's more than that. It's like you're genuine and you're just sincere and you're really thoughtful and caring. And there's all these other things that go into it too, but, but, but it's interesting because it's like, this is all dependent on what you call being a good friend.
Eva: Like what is your definition of a good friend? Yeah.
Kyley: Right. Yeah. And I, and I think what I'm trying to point to is like, [00:32:00] the thing that made me start laughing was like the over, the overwhelm is actually the very evidence I, one could take it as the evidence of you are a good friend. You're overwhelmed because you're a good, you're such a good friend. You've got a ton of them.
Kyley: Right. And so there's a way that the overwhelm is a story of badness. But it is just, I could literally take the exact same story of overwhelm and let it be, Oh look, this is the evidence that you're in overflow and abundance because you're a good friend. So now you could just enjoy it instead of think that you're bad all the time.
Eva: Okay, so this is really interesting, because um, there's this like exercise that, uh, that Tom will do sometimes, and this we'll do on retreat sometimes, where he goes like, what's your proof? Like, we will look for proof of a belief that we what I'm kind of [00:33:00] hearing you say is that your proof That previously your proof that you were a bad friend was that, uh, was kind of the same proof that you're a good friend.
Eva: It's like you have all of these text messages to respond to and birthdays that you need to call people on and blah, blah, blah. And yeah, I guess you take that, it's the meaning, I guess, that you put behind it. Whereas your proof that you're a good friend could also be the same. It's like, look at all these people who, like, I have in my life and they're there because I'm a good friend.
Eva: And, you know. And, and I mean, is it as simple as a perspective shift? Is it like a perspective shift, a story shift, a not even okay, actually, but it's more than that is what I'm hearing you say. It's not just like changing perspective. It's like, I think there's something significant about proof being like, this is showing this is this, how do I want to experience this?
Eva: Like, this is [00:34:00] actually showing me something and how. Yeah, do you know? I feel like there's something there. How do I want to
Kyley: and I can give another example, too, which is that, as you know, and as listeners have gathered, like, I'm a friggin idea machine, you know, like, I could have five new ideas before breakfast of, like, a project I want to make, whether it's a free thing, whether it's a paid course, whether it's a retreat, like, I have ideas all the time, and I will get overwhelmed This is, this has less sting because I have less story of badness attached to this, but it still shows up, it shows up in a smaller amount, but I will have story of like, Oh my God, I'm so overwhelmed because I have to do this and this and this, right?
Kyley: I have to act on all these ideas and the, the, the, the, the, overflow version, the abundant version is like, I don't have to act on any of these because I will have infinite ideas. Like the, I, like there is an infinite flow of [00:35:00] ideas that move through me. And so I will act on the ones that are alive when I have the space and capacity to act on them.
Kyley: And the others will either stick around or go away, depending on like what, what I most want to do with them. And I don't have to hold or manage the ideas vis a vis my productivity and time because. I am in perpetual idea overflow.
Eva: Yeah, I can actually see how, like, because you don't have a story that, like, this is a problem, you're actually just really relaxed about it, the whole thing, and then you're like, okay, cool, like, I can, it's, it's, you have a relaxed relationship around this, and then you can have fun, and then you're gonna have fun with, like, your ideas.
Eva: Whereas, Someone else could turn that into a problem.
Kyley: Absolutely. And I, and I have at points too, right? Where it's like, Oh my God, I said I was going to do it. I said this to myself that I was going to do this and I haven't done it yet. And like, and I get all like stressed out about where it fits in the time. Then it's like, and that's when I have to be like, you know, Oh, I was going to do this.
Kyley: And then the idea isn't alive anymore. [00:36:00] That used to be something that I would be upset about was like, I hold something. It's a lot of holding. That's where some of the suffering comes in is like holding and managing. I like hold the idea. And then a month goes by and I'm not interested anymore, but then I would, I used to judge it or, but right, it's like when you let, when I just let go I'm in flow, you know, like without judgment, then it's just abundance and pleasure and joy and the fun of creating.
Eva: hmm.
Kyley: Um,
Eva: Okay.
Kyley: but I have a harder time doing that in other areas. Can
Eva: So, the question that I was going to ask you is like, okay, so then like, what's stopping you from just In this example of friendship, for example, um, stopping you from just being like, Oh, now it's almost like you see, you can see more clearly. That's what I would call it. It's like clear seeing, seeing the truth of it.
Eva: And you decide what truth is for you. But like, and oftentimes it's like, and I feel like it's a truth when we have like integrated it into [00:37:00] our bodies. So I'm like, what's stopping you from seeing? Again, this is just an example. Your, your, um, friendships instead of as like deficit or being a bad friend as being You're just a really good friend, and you can answer that, but I do want to offer one thing, because it sounds like what's coming up is like, it's really just our stories, our stories around it, and actually, which can oftentimes be tied to, um, I don't know, like our triggers, or I think it's tied to our stories, and also, like, how we identify our identities. All right, that's, that's what I'm, well I think that, okay, so for example, the reason I think you struggle with this like bad friend thing is because you kind of identify, like, this is a story that you've had about yourself, you identify like highly as somebody and you've said it consciously and unconsciously a gazillion [00:38:00] times, you know, you're almost 40 years of life, um,
Kyley: But also, side note, only from 2020. It's like, that's all, that's the thing, it's like, it's, it's, I've said it many times but in a concentrated four and a half year
Eva: Okay. Yeah. Okay. Actually, I didn't know that. So that's good to know. But anyway.
Kyley: no, but this is, I actually think this is why, just side note, I think this is why the friend, the bad friend struggle is actually so acute.
Kyley: because I have lots of memories of it not being there. So it's a, it's a weird, it's not, it's, some of, some of our stories we have been identified with for so long that we don't even see that it's a story. This Bad Friend one is interesting because it plays on all of the stories I've had forever that I can't see.
Kyley: And it's also a story that is really fresh and has only been around for four years. So it's this weird, I think one of the reasons it's really rich. And I talk about it a lot is because there's a way that I can see it clearly and that and also then that helps me see the other stories [00:39:00] that are, that are living in it that I can't see clearly in other areas.
Kyley: Right? Does that make sense?
Eva: Yeah. Well, that's a doozy. That's fun.
Kyley: hmm. Mm hmm.
Eva: So, but going back to this idea of like, it's like, and I think you even said this before the show. I think you're just, I don't know how else to explain it. You're just identified as that, that one who, um, is a bad friend. And therefore, if you're identified, if you have that identity, then.
Eva: you will, how you relate to the situation will be from a place of deficit. It will be like, okay, so therefore it's not going to, you're not going to have access to the overflow because it's personal. Like it feels so personal is what, that's kind of what I mean by like, it's, it's, you're identified with it.
Eva: Like it says something about you, it's personal, but it's like, but for me, what I'm trying to say is I don't have. those same, it's not, I don't have those same stories. And, um, for, or, or, for [00:40:00] example, take, take me out of the equation. There are so many people out there who Never respond to text messages who will like take forever and that's just like they don't check their phone And and I don't think and because they're not identified with like oh that like I have they have no it's almost like thought doesn't Exist in their consciousness.
Eva: They're not insecure about it. It's it was never introduced to them I don't think that they would have a story that they're a bad friend and maybe, and, and, and they're probably a really good friend in other ways, in such, in scenarios where they're so caring. I, I, I mean, I know people like this, you know what I mean?
Eva: They're the best people. They're so kind, so present, so generous. They just like, don't answer their phone and don't remember my birthday, but do you know? Do you know what I mean? But, but it's just, it's not an issue for them.
Kyley: Yes. And yes. And, and you're a thousand percent right. And about like, it's so clear to me. How much it's just [00:41:00] story, right? It's so clear to me that it's like, this is not based in, especially because the more I dissolve this story and the more I watch the story dissolve, like the more, you know, this, I have this because I collect friends all the time.
Kyley: I have this new, amazing, amazing group of women. There's these five women that live somewhere near me. We're all mothers. We're all up. There's like brilliant, funny women. And like, I just said at the beginning, like, y'all, I'm going to get overwhelmed by the group chat. I will like, I will disappear for a week and I'll come back in and I won't.
Kyley: catch up. I'll just start talking again. You know what I mean? Like, and I just, I didn't, I didn't come in with story. Like I didn't come into that relationship with story about like a good friend messages people all the time. And as a result, like I'll just, you know, like there's 800 unread messages from the past five days that I'm just going to go in tomorrow and be like, can someone give me the cliff notes?
Kyley: I don't know what's happening anymore, but here's a book that I'm reading. That's great. Or whatever. Um, And so I am very conscious of how it's story and I'm very conscious of how like the more I dissolve the edge of the story, the more [00:42:00] it just stops, it just stops showing up. And I think the thing that is interesting to me about this overwhelm into overflow piece to zoom, you know, we can keep using the friendship piece as an example, or we can talk about another area is it's the management.
Kyley: So like the, the, the, there is, so there's a layer of like, why, okay. I experienced. and abundance as stress, because I think it's my job to like manage, like. How do I put this into words? The story of badness, how I try to manage the story of badness is that I try to manage my badness. So I have like a list of things that are like actions that are bad, right? Like taking too long to send a client a file [00:43:00] or being late to something or, you know, I mean, we can see how all of this is just ADHD, but whatever, right?
Kyley: But like, I have like a list of proof, to use Tom's word, of badness. And then I make it my job to just like constantly manage my own badness
Eva: Which keeps the badness alive.
Kyley: which keeps the badness alive and also is a losing battle because the things that I am trying to manage are also kind of true to just the way that I live in the world, right?
Kyley: So there it's like, I'm trying to, I'm trying to basically trying to manage my own monsters and villains into submission, which is why I'm exhausted and overwhelmed instead of. In Overflow, right? Is this making sense?
Eva: Can I just add to that, and I also, what I'm hearing you say is like you're trying to man your, what, what you called your monsters, but basically you're trying to mold yourself into being, to doing things the way that the world does them when you don't naturally do them that way, which is [00:44:00] also exhausting.
Eva: I mean, that's also very common in like being, you know, neurodivergent and all of these things. It's like, well, there's a proper way to do things, but, and , but I don't naturally do them that way, and so therefore it's a problem.
Kyley: Yes, and intellectually, obviously, I can see, like, there's literally a proper way to do things. And listeners, like, this is what I teach. This is literally what I teach in Villanera, in my business programs, is like, and this is how fucking pervasive this shit is. It's like, I live in devotion to unpacking these stories, and they're like, Oh, here we,
Eva: Yeah. Well, mm-hmm . We also
Kyley: which I, I,
Eva: Mm-hmm
Kyley: We teach and we know, and I also say that because I want to bring, I want to just offer us all compassion, like, if this shit is hard, it's because it's hard, you know?
Kyley: Um, and if you feel like, oh my god, I thought I learned this one already, and it comes back, it's like, that's just, that's, that's the sign that you're alive and in it. Um, but, uh, Like the, the, [00:45:00] I, I, I can see that the way that overflow gets to be experienced or sorry, overwhelmed gets to experience this overflow is that I stopped trying to manage myself.
Kyley: The story of badness causes me to manage myself. And then I am exhausted. Like, that's why I'm burnt out because it's like, because what happens in my brain, for example, is like, I will to send a handful of clients. guided meditation that I made. And then I like, and then I will forget to do it. And then I will like hold the debt of having forgotten to do it.
Kyley: And then the debt grows and grows interest. And then it's in my head of like a thing I wanted to do. I didn't, I didn't do it quote unquote properly, but my own made up standards. And then. It's like a, it's like a snowball grows, right? And so then I'm like managing this like mounting thing, but I think there was obviously nothing to begin with, but if you multiply that by like all the essentially like [00:46:00] tasks and ideas and agendas, it's like, takes up a ton of space in my body.
Kyley: Yes.
Eva: Okay, ah, so much to say about this, because what you're saying is it's not sending the meditation that is overwhelmed, it's all of that other baggage that's coming afterwards of like, then you didn't send it, and then you forgot, and then you feel shame, and then you have to like, remind yourself, and it's like, that when you're even speaking, I could feel like the heaviness of that.
Eva: And also I can really, really, I was making all these faces as you were talking, because I was like, uh. This is a bit of a tangent, but I'll share it anyway. It's like I, I have this realization about my fatigue all the time is that I actually feel fatigued. But then I have all of this baggage afterwards that comes with my fatigue, which I'm worried about my body.
Eva: I feel like I can't keep up. I'm like, there's all this just stuff that's taking up space that that's actually the thing that's making me so tired. Not just the fatigue itself. It's everything that follows.
Kyley: Yes.[00:47:00]
Eva: I think my question is, it's like, so what can you do instead
Kyley: I add one more piece to it? Sorry, can I add one more thing? Because I think also in there, in the way we talk about like, our spiritual practices are sometimes also insidiously weave themselves back into our like, suffering. Because part of the management, and this in some ways ties to Our conversation, what you were experiencing last week, part of the management is also like, how do I?
Kyley: Oh, I'm feeling shame. I'm feeling a story. How do I manage myself through this? Right? How do I? So it's like managing of, I don't know, a project, a task, an activity that I want to do, or, you know, thing I want to do, and then managing the follow it if I do or don't do it. And then, Managing my, like, emotional response around the thing when I, when I observe suffering, right?
Kyley: So it's like, even, even when I, my tools of how I love [00:48:00] myself through suffering, when this part of my brain is activated, just becomes, like, feeds the, like, management overwhelm
Eva: Yeah. Everything is about management and none of it is about just being a free fucking person who's just like living like you're saying and like in flow, spontaneously, like in the moment. Um, yeah, it all feels about control rather than letting go.
Kyley: Yes. Yes.
Eva: So cool. Then I think the very simple question is, what can you do instead of needing to be in management phase?
Kyley: I don't know. That's why I'm talking to you.
Eva: But I don't actually think that that's true. When you,
Eva: when you don't send the meditation to these five clients. And it doesn't happen. Like what would
Eva: overflow look like and what would not just overflow, but what would, um, I [00:49:00] really want to ask this question. It's like, what would overflow look like? What would completely letting go look like actually to the point where another theme that's coming in, which I've been saying, you know, these past few months, it's like, what would almost like letting things be out of control
Kyley: yeah, yes, yes, yes. And I think that the out of control thing is really a big, is really a big part of it. And I think part of what's interesting about this dynamic is like. As I am describing this with vim and vigor, because when I experience it, it can, you know, it can be loud. I also have so much space and compassion, and it's, and so it's interesting how the like, the duality of that.
Kyley: So for example, yesterday, I was like in the middle of the workday, and I have a long list of things that feel quite important, and I want to, and I want to have done, and I finished a client call. And I checked in with myself and I really wanted to go sit in a coffee shop and have a cup of coffee. And so [00:50:00] that's what I did.
Kyley: And I spent the two hours that I could have done managing any project or managing my, by like having a healing meditation or whatever, like, I literally was like, Oh, I'm going to go get coffee. And I sat there for two and a half hours and like chatted with some friends and read my book and drank coffee and then drove home and had another client call.
Kyley: And it's, and I share that because it's interesting. It's like, I have these pockets of just like, I have these pockets where it feels, um, very available to just drop out of the overflow, overwhelmed machine. Right. It's just like, there's just no managing, or there's just, I'm just not engaging with it.
Eva: Oh, wait, can I? Okay. Mm hmm.
Kyley: No, go ahead.
Eva: I want to interject because I think this is really important. I get that. I get how you can have Uh, the array of experiences where you can let go and you don't always feel that way and I think that's like really great and important but I actually think that can be [00:51:00] really confusing sometimes because then you go but look in this area or on this day it was fine.
Eva: I don't give a fuck about that like really I think what's so important right now is to look like laser at the moments of focus of focus into the moments of suffering because it doesn't. Like, yeah, we know that this isn't how you are 24 seven, but this is a gift that you're having right now. In those moments where you're like, your brain is so caught and you're like, it's a, it's a portal, like a tunnel into looking at like, what's really there, you know, and not
Kyley: And, and, and the, this management thing is the operating system. I think that's the other, the other piece of it is like, I have these pockets of real spaciousness, but if I'm honest with myself, it's like the management. It's, it's basically like management learned that I do better if I have pockets where I fuck around and read my book, but she's still the operating system.
Kyley: So you're right to bring me back there and I, and I don't share that to be like, see, it's not [00:52:00] true. It's, it's actually, I'm fascinated by the way it's like, I, even then where I was like truly in an embodied relief, if I took the time, I would feel management Kylie running, sitting at her little clackety clack keyboard, right?
Eva: Like she's still the default. And then you take a vacation every once in a while.
Kyley: yeah, she, exactly. She's like, Oh, here's, here's your PTO. Enjoy. You know?
Eva: yeah, exactly, exactly, which I so understand, by the way. And I think sometimes when I do that, I get confused and I'm like, but, but, but it's not always like this. And I go in and sometimes I'm really, you know, great and wonderful and, and things are all really working.
Kyley: And I think that that's true. They both can exist, but actually it doesn't matter in this example, it doesn't matter because we're like, but we're, cause we're asking, okay, but what do we do about the times when you are in the churn?
What's interesting, what I'm interested in is like, yes to the places when I'm in the churn. But it's, okay, there's almost like there's three stages. There's the places where I'm in the tumor, I'm in like active [00:53:00] suffering, where I can like watch my mind making stories about like, you said, you told yourself you were going to do X and you didn't do it.
Kyley: Then there's the times where I like, you know, have my PTO and I'm not, I'm not being overly managed. But actually what is the most insidious is this in between. Because I can, I can, I can like suffering when it's really loud, when the story is really loud, I see it for what it is. And, and, and then when I'm on vacation, I'm on vacation, but there's probably 80 percent of the time I'm actually in this in between where I'm in low key management mode, but I don't even see it.
Eva: Mhm.
Kyley: that's the part, because the suffering when it's really acute is actually like helpful because it's like, Oh, see what you do. But it's the thing that I'm like. Yes,
Eva: That's when it's most dangerous.
Kyley: yes, yes, and that, [00:54:00] that, that's, I think this chronic overwhelm that I've known for so long, like that's where it lives is in the way that I just unconsciously, I'm just managing myself, managing myself, lists, lists, lists, and I, and, and I'm not, because it's mostly unconscious.
Kyley: And just so much the way of being that I've had for so long, that's why it's unconscious, right, it's just like, it's the lens I've been looking through, that I think I'm not sure how to shift out of it. I mean, it's becoming conscious, right, because I'm talking to it now, I'm seeing it, but I'm seeing what's causing the overwhelm that I've been speaking to for a while now, but, but I'm not totally, I'm not totally sure.
Eva: Yeah.
Eva: My, this is what's coming to me. I have a hunch that it starts with actually the moments that are [00:55:00] obvious of like, and usually that's going to show up as like suffering, you're going to, it's going to be more noticeable. Starting there, and that is going to like, kick up the unconscious stuff and make it more, um, like available to you.
Eva: But what I mean when I say start with the parts that are very obvious is like, going back to the part earlier where I said like, letting things be out of control. So, what I mean is, when you have a, when something happens, I'm gonna go back to this meditation example. You don't send the, you don't send the meditation and then you're just like tough stories about that and how you should have done it and then you try and manage it and blah, blah, blah.
Eva: What I mean when I say let things be completely out of control, what I mean is to be like, to let yourself be exactly as you are
Eva: without needing, I don't even know how to, it's like, it's like, what I'm speaking to is actually complete letting go, complete freedom, being like, [00:56:00] and letting yourself be exactly as you are, full acceptance. Okay. I feel like I'm trying to say something important, but it's going to sound so obvious. To like, let yourself be that way.
Kyley: what it is. I
Eva: Just let yourself be that way and actually accept, like, can you actually accept and be like, and this is how I am in this moment to like, really accept that without actually needing to manage and also without needing to explain to yourself or to others or to be like, okay, but you know, and then I can come back in and try and do it later.
Eva: It's like,
Kyley: have a really dumb question.
Eva: Mm hmm.
Kyley: What am I accepting? Literally what my brain is like, be what way?
Eva: So that's a really good question. It's like haha. I didn't it's like oh look at me. I didn't send I didn't send The meditation that I said I was going to send, ha ha, look at me. Okay, I didn't do it. [00:57:00] I know. I think this is like really important, even though it sounds so simple.
Kyley: Well, and here's what's also interesting about this, right? It's like at this point should is dead has been a pillar for a long enough time. Like I don't, things don't arrive on my like Things I want to do that then lead to overwhelm, unless I fucking want to do them, right? Like 90 percent of the time, like it doesn't, it doesn't, right?
Kyley: I don't, I just don't live from a luxury. So if I'm sending someone a meditation, it's because I want them to have it. It's because I think they're gonna really like it and it was fun to record and whatever, right? If I'm thinking I should call someone for their birthday, it's because I love them and I think it would be nice to talk to them, right?
Kyley: So when I say that, because part of what's happening in that moment is like, I, I want to do, I want, I want it, I want it done. I want it to be a thing that I get to experience doing [00:58:00] and also it's not happening or won't happen. And so when you say like, let yourself be, I'm literally like, this is, I think this goes to strong, how strong that management identity is, is that I'm like, I don't understand what I am in that moment other than management.
Eva: Hmm. Okay. I think so. And what I want you to try on is like, um, what was it? It was like, I hear what you're saying when you're like, okay, I, I wanted to send my friend a message on her birthday, but it didn't happen. It didn't happen like for a reason, right? Like maybe because you forgot your kids came in and said they needed lunch and it just like flew out. Flew out of the brain, whatever, um, because most of the time you're, it's not, like, you're not, most of the time you're, it's not because you're avoiding, oh, it's not, most of the time you're not,
Kyley: to the initial, the initial not doing is an avoidance and because it gets to avoidance because the [00:59:00] story snowballs, but the initial, right, the initial, okay, I'm getting some clarity,
Eva: but wait, can I finish my thought though, so like,
Kyley: yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah,
Eva: so what if you, like, just didn't text your friend and you forgot and you're like, oh, I didn't text my friend, like, so, without a story, I guess is what I'm trying to say, it's like, haha, it's, it's like, you're so not identified with this person who fucks up or who forgets or whatever, that it's not personal at, Like, Oh, and it's too, and you can tell it's really not that person when you can laugh at it, but you're like, Oh, that's funny.
Eva: Like I forgot. Yes. Yes.
Kyley: when I was saying like, I don't know who I am in that moment, except for the management. The answer is to be with the management. Which is not the same thing as identifying with the management. It's in that moment. What I have to do because I can't do that. I'm trying to manage my way into that, which isn't working because it's [01:00:00] just more managing, but I actually have, right, because I'm like, like, I have the moment of story and suffering.
Kyley: And I have like, oh, you didn't send the email. And so I either like, I like ping pong around between like, okay, whatever, fuck it. I'll get to it. That's the vacation mode. Or I pop into like, ah, you piece of shit. Like this person's going to be disappointed in you. Or I go into like, no, you're not. And then I try to like rewrite the story, but it's all of that is like, there's a lot of efforting and managing happening there.
Kyley: That is the very, which is actually the very thing that's toxic to begin with. So what's coming to me as we're talking through this is actually. What I have to do is observe the manager, like, and observe how it feels to be in management mode and observe, like, yeah, it's a lot to hold all this, like, you know, like it's, it's a lot to, to do this ping ponging and to try to decide if we're on vacation mode or if we're on beat [01:01:00] ourselves up mode or we're on healing mode,
Eva: Yeah.
Kyley: yeah, I get that. She's the one I have to watch. I've been being her, but I have to
Eva: watch her. Yeah. Or, yeah, no, notice. Yeah. And the, like, the, the noticing, I think, without, yeah, being her, you're the observer, you're outside, there's like a little bit one removed, like, you're actually loving awareness, as they would say, you know, not, not the manager. You're the loving awareness, like, like, just observing the manager.
Eva: Yeah, holding. Um, but I think To me, that's just like another version of, like, I guess what I would call being, like just being in that moment and being like, okay, like, what is It's, it's not management, it's not managing, it's not going and using all our tools, you know, you're like, okay, it's more like, whoa, like, what is, what is my experience right now?
Eva: And just to notice, like, the [01:02:00] whole experience and, and that to me feels like, it is noticing, but it's also just being, it's like, you're letting go, in a way, you're like, okay, I'm letting go of all of my tools and my management and also, like, my, uh, critical thinking skills about how I can, like, you know, get myself out of this or whatever, it's just like, And part of the being is, and I guess, in a way, I think it's kind of like what you're saying is just to be with it too.
Eva: You're being with the, almost the physical sensations also that come with like the, the manager. And
Kyley: and.
Eva: what you're saying, it was hard for you to like, but some of it's unconscious, you know, so you don't know when. But I actually think that, and I, I agree, and I'm so with you, by the way, like, so much of my behavior is still unconscious, obviously, you know, whatever.
Eva: I'm not. Uh, I'm not totally enlightened yet if you haven't noticed but like, um, but I think it's like the, I don't know, I do think it's like, I'm seeing it as like rocks, like, like breaking up these [01:03:00] big rocks that are really obvious will kick up the dust well on all the other things that are unconscious and make them like much more noticeable.
Eva: Mm-hmm
Kyley: and I think the thing that I'm marveling, a thousand percent, and I think what I'm, what I'm just marveling at too is how when you were saying like, when you're talking about like being, and when you were saying like, you know, just let yourself be how you are at that moment. And my question of like.
Kyley: I don't know. I don't know who I am or I don't know how to do that, which surprised me. It surprised me as an answer, but I think that comes back to like how much we are making something our identity, right? Or like, which is also how unconscious something is, right? So like, when I do talk about like the sacred rage workshop, I have a lot of capacity, hold my anger, but not believe that I am my
Eva: Mm-hmm
Kyley: right?
Kyley: There's a, there's, there's some like spaciousness [01:04:00] there so that I can really love it and then I can let it show me what it needs. What might be to have a temper tantrum, which might be to set a clear boundary, right? Which might be you're running from shame and there's some accountability to be had, right?
Kyley: But I get to hear the wisdom of it because I'm not completely identified with it. Most of the time. I mean, I'm like, you know, again, human. I still have fights with my husband in which I'm an asshole.
Eva: Mm
Kyley: Right. And I'm just struck by how we can't do that when we fully think when we think we, when we just like fully enmesh ourselves with the experience.
Kyley: So like literally here I am on the eve of turning 40 and I'm like. Oh wait, I'm not management? That's not, that's not me. That's just a, Oh, I'm like watching it almost like this, like, it's like this like kind of sticky, like, like separation that [01:05:00] I have like, Oh, I'm conscious awareness of management because the fucked up thing that's in there is that that all, Oh, Oh, this is going to feel trippy.
Kyley: And I don't know if this will fully make sense to people, but if I'm trying to be conscious awareness. But I'm merged with management, even when I'm consciously observing other parts of me, I'm doing it through the lens, like I'm making God management,
Eva: Mm hmm.
Kyley: right? All of that management energy, which is like kind of just a slightly softer version of the inner critic, all of that management energy, I'm making the energy of God.
Eva: Okay, hold on. Yes, okay.
Kyley: Do you get what I'm trying to
Eva: We're still doing all of this, like trying to figure out, you know, how to get out of management is still another form of management. Like if we want to get really trippy, like we can say, like all of it is like management, like it's, [01:06:00] and the only way out is like to accept exact things exactly as they are.
Eva: What I'm noticing is that it could all really be management. I think what makes the difference is whether or not We are willing to let something be like this for as long as it needs to be like this, meaning we're not trying to change it.
Kyley: Yes.
Eva: the intention behind why, how and why we are doing something I actually think is the thing that makes the difference between whether or not it is management, actual just living and being.
Kyley: Yes. Yes. Yes. And. I was talking to a client recently about anger and we were talking about, like, this feeling of how do I, she was basically saying like, I don't know how to be with my anger without just like erupting into being an asshole, right? It's like there, it's like there wasn't enough space to see it without it just like [01:07:00] setting her on fire, right? I think the same exact thing has been happening here, which is that I have not been able to engage with this management part without engaging with it as management. Right. . I've done, whether it's engaging with this part or even other parts, has a tinge of like, fixing, a tinge of like, not a rival, a tinge of like, make sure you don't fuck it up kind of energy, cause that's her, she's just like a non stop chattering to do list kind of vibe, and and so that's what I mean also about like, that making God management, because then you just, anything, I guess what it's landing for me, it's like anything that you are unconsciously identified with comes with you, even in your moments of conscious awareness to some small extent. And so [01:08:00] that's just feels really illuminating to see. Um, and I'm really, I mean, I'm rubbing my heart listeners as we're talking about this, which I've been doing a ton, like the past like week, I'm like, I don't know what is happening, but I just like, can't stop just like massaging my heart for the past week and a half. Um, but I feel very liberated because I can, I, I can feel the space that I've been seeking, which is. Oh, I'm not trying to manage my way now beneath to anything other than the management. I just, just to observe her and how she is and how, and love her and just like watch her and learn her instead of being her
Eva: Mm hmm. Yeah.
Kyley: the thing that I've been hungry for because that's what creates space,
Eva: Yeah.
Kyley: is where possibility lives.
Eva: And, I would add to that, going back to this point about, like, [01:09:00] never, like, truly in your heart, like, never needing it to change, or never needing management to change, is like, Then if you, if you can like really be with that, then there will be no agenda. I think the agenda drops. So that's where I think like, like when you were talking about how, like even, even the manager is like, even God becomes manager.
Eva: It's like, no, when you, there's something really. Um, powerful. Like for me, a lot of times when I'm in my own like work, I'm like, and I see myself in the churn about something and I get to this point where I have to be like, wait, I, I'm willing to have this. It's like the thing that I want more and more of.
Eva: I need to also at the same time be like, and I'm also willing to like never.
Eva: The thing that I'm trying to change in myself, I need, in order for me to [01:10:00] change, I've often experienced it as like, and also I need to, uh, be open to the fact that this will never change. Like I don't need to get rid of it.
Kyley: Yes. I mean, yeah, there was a huge moment in the, like, get, you know, moving through my breakup last year was the moment that I saw, oh, some part of me will never want to be over this. Right? Some part of me will always want to be sad about what happened. Also, some part of me will always be madly in love with this person, despite what happened.
Kyley: And some part of me will fucking hate her guts for the rest of time. And all of those are true. And actually, they'll never go away. But the moment with each of those, the moment that I like really let myself accept the truth of that, they just got like cozy and comfy and stopped like causing all, they're just, they're just there, right?
Kyley: It's not, they're not, they're not causing suffering or harm or hurt. They're just vibing, right? But when I was trying to make Them go away. When I was trying to be like, [01:11:00] no, I just wanna feel fine about everything that happened. The part of me who will never feel fine about it was like, fuck you. No, this wasn't okay.
Kyley: And, and the moment I let her be exist, let her be okay. It was like, let her exist. And I was like, oh yeah. Okay.
Eva: Mm-hmm . Yeah. And so would you say that's the same part, does that hold true for this management part of yourself as well? Like that, you
Kyley: yeah, I mean, I think what I'm really struck by Yes, exactly that, um, the goal, it feels very clear, but the goal is not to ask her to not be a manager. The goal is just to, I think, I mean, I think what I'm really, and I feel like I'm being redundant, but what I'm really struck by is how much I couldn't accept her or be with her or allow her to just exist because I literally couldn't see her as a part of me.
Kyley: I could only see myself as her.
Eva: mm-hmm . Yeah. Yep,
Kyley: And I know I keep saying that same thing over and over again, it's kind of blowing my mind because I do a lot of parts work, right? Like it's [01:12:00] such a foundation to how I move through the world. And so here is this huge part. That I have just thought was me
Eva: Me, yeah, super identified with, just like over, yeah, super,
Kyley: identified with and so it feels really clear to just keep letting her have a her become a part and then yeah, of course she can have her clipboard and manage the shit out of whatever she wants to do.
Kyley: It's not it's it's like I can actually feel suddenly that it's not a problem. The problem and the suffering in this instance has not been because I was trying to fix her because I just thought I was
Eva: yeah, you thought you were her, yep. I mean, that's huge! Anytime that we can have any space from something, like, where we become, where the, where we become the big awareness. So that's how I kind of see it. Like, we're the big, or, or like, I've heard it explains, like, we're, we're in this, there's a small bubble, and there's a big bubble.
Eva: And we're identified, we're in it, we pop into the small bubble. And we're like, this is, this is our world, our whole consciousness, the whole, whole awareness. And suddenly we sometimes we [01:13:00] pop out and we pop out into the bigger bubble. And we're like, no, I can see, I can see it, I can actually see it. And you can only see it when you are not it, when you realize that you are not it.
Eva: That's big.
Kyley: Yes. Yes. Yes. And because I think, you know, you've been saying this thing of like, let it be out of control. And I've been feeling a lot of energy around, like, you know, to the part point of like my heart, I've been feeling a lot of energy around, like, I just have to be open. Like I, in all sorts of areas of my life, I've been feeling this really deep call to just like, don't turn off the tap, like be in a space, like the call is to just be soft and open.
Kyley: And I've been on board. Um, and also, um, this feels really connected to that because it's a little bit like, um, how, how do I let myself be in an even deeper level of not in control and it's not managing the manager. It's not fixing the manager. It's just space from, it's [01:14:00] just like, it's just like, Oh, being in charge is not my job. right. Um, yeah.
Eva: What do you think, is it time for joy?
Kyley: Hmm. Mm hmm. Yeah.
Eva: Or is there anything else that you want to say, I think, in closing before we move into joy?
Kyley: I do want to bring it back to overflow and abundance just to like thematically connect it.
Eva: Mm
Kyley: Um, because I think listeners might be following along and they're like, okay, I get this. The overthinking and over managing causes suffering, but like, what does that have to do with it?
Eva: hmm. Mm hmm. Yep. Yep.
Kyley: Um, and I think the answer is that abundance is the fucking is ness. Right? Like our lives are really rich and the things that we think are problems are actually a lot [01:15:00] of times evidence of the blessings, you know, to the point of, I think I have, you know, do a bad job keeping in touch with people cause I've got so many fucking amazing, beautiful, brilliant friends.
Kyley: Right? Um,
Eva: wait, can I go ahead? Go
Kyley: good.
Eva: Ah, well, because why do you think there's so many examples of this? There's actually one thing that I thought for sure we were going to get to in this show. But of course we in true Kylie and Eva form went on some spectacular tangents. This is, I think, also what we notice in our mortality, like when death comes, like, you know, I saw a post where my dad was like, you know, in the hospital and like almost dying and blah, blah, blah.
Eva: And I saw a post that it was like, what a privilege it is that I still have so much to do. And And I was like, oh my God, in that moment when death was really present in my life, I was like, oh my God, it is such a privilege. I'm like, oh my God, I'm always complaining about there's so much to do. But I'm like, if I were on my deathbed, when perspective changes, I would be like, oh my [01:16:00] God, I'm so grateful that I still get to, I mean, yeah, I'm not saying anything new because this is what people, this is, we see the truth of things, I think, more clearly and when we are like about to die.
Eva: All the bullshit falls away and what's left over is just what's important, you know, but it's like, oh my god, if I was dying, I would feel so grateful that I still had. Um, I just, I'm trying to think of like all, all these groceries, you know, groceries that I needed to buy and meals that I had to cook and, and, uh,
Kyley: The beautiful poet, Andrea Gibson talks about this. I don't know if listeners know her, but Andrea Gibson is just my, she's up there with Mary Oliver. She's an incredible poet and she has, I think, terminal cancer and she speaks about this all the time. Like the freedom and like beauty, the beauty of being terminally ill is like every fucking day is a blessing.
Kyley: Like, Oh my God. Yeah. I get to go grocery shopping. You know? Yes.
Eva: also, you know, with my [01:17:00] chronic fatigue, another thing, cause I was thinking about a lot yesterday cause I had a flare up and I was like thinking, you know. walking around being all disgruntled about how tired I am. And then there was a point where I turned around and I was like, but also like, and also Andrea Gibson talks about this, it's like, what a privilege it is to have a body that I get to be tired in, you know, and, and, and actually like, uh, the, like the richness of that.
Eva: And so. And I've seen, and I've seen other posts that have actually been very inspiring to me. It's like what a privilege it is that I still have, you know, all of this laundry that I have to do throughout the rest of my life. And what a privilege it is that I, that I need to have, um, I mean, I think parenthood is a good example, like, all of these, like, annoying things that you had to do as parents, but actually, like, are a privilege.
Eva: And so, it is a sign of an abundant life, it is a sign of being alive, it is a sign of privilege, it is a sign of, like, all of these things. But I think my original question about all of this was, like, so isn't this just, like, a [01:18:00] mindset shift? And if so, that's not, like, a problem, you know what I mean? But, like, that's what it is.
Eva: It's, like, just. It's just changing your perspective, how you see something, but I think what's really like more, what's been more profound to me is that when sometimes I can know that intellectually and then sometimes when something happens in life and it goes, boom, and I like know it physically in my body.
Kyley: Well, right. Because mindset shift for me reads as effortful management. Like for me, mindset shift is like a thing that you, and I think this is why I'm so enamored with doing like deeper healing work in the subconscious and somatic because I find when I go there, like this conversation we did, which feels like, you know, tapping into some of my subconscious energies, but I start to shift that.
Kyley: then, then it just rises up and there's nothing to manage. It actually becomes quite effortless. And for me, and I don't know if this is true for everybody, but for [01:19:00] me, when I think about mindset shift, I think about a thing that I have to maintain, a thing that I have to be like, Oh, wait, I started, you know, like Desi woke up this morning and he was just like in a shit mood.
Kyley: It was like, Oh, I'm tired. And I was like, tell me five things you're excited about today. And then he was like, Oh, right. It's going to be a really fun day. And then his mindset shifted. It's like to me, it's like a it's a tool that we use and it's a good one. Um, but it also feeds the addictiveness of this managing thing.
Kyley: Um, and I think, so as I think the other, so you're speaking to perspective shifts and I think that's all really, and I think that's all really true and I think that's really powerful and there's something else here about how like over, well, shifts into overflow, which is like without the management piece running interference, which is I'm thinking about when I'm like sitting on the couch with my kids.
Kyley: And I also have a million ideas of things I want to do for work. And I also have a bunch of friends that I want to message. [01:20:00] When I'm in management mode, I'm overwhelmed because I'm wanting to do all of those things because I think I have to do all those things because I think something bad will happen if I don't. But when the manager goes on, you know, she's like, settles back into her place, or she just settles back energetically, then I'm on the couch and, like, the experience is presence. Presence is inherently abundant. I'm just in the, like, snuggling with my kids while maybe also getting excited about dinner with a friend next week, while also rubbing Birdie's back, while also having some idea pop in of a lesson I want to create.
Kyley: And it's all happening at the same time, and there's nothing to manage, so it's actually just a rich, abundant
Eva: Experience. Yes. That, I think you like really just brought it home in such a In ki in a Kylie way and the way that you so often do it so well, it's like it's not [01:21:00] about something to do. And, and, um, but yeah, what I'm hearing you say is the difference is like, it's, yeah, sure. It can be a perspective shift, but it's about the experience of, uh, what did you, oh, not overflow.
Eva: The experience, your, your experience it and experiencing it. I think the reason, as we all know, experience is so important is that. I mean, nothing's more important than experience. It's experiential. No one can take your experience away from you. It is, it is a felt, lived thing and it's much more valuable.
Eva: Then yeah, just a thought. Anyway, I would love to have another conversation with you about like mindset shifts in the future and like our definitions of, our definitions of that, because I think that's really interesting.
Kyley: Yeah.
Eva: So yeah, the experience of overflow.
Kyley: Yes. Yes. And,
Eva: Which I, sorry, let me add to one more thing. And I think that that just like, like, it's just so nourishing for the nervous system, by the way, it's all of a sudden like the nervous system is like, Can relax a little bit and opens up [01:22:00] and I think then that kind of gets us out of like the management phase you know more there's just then if yeah we
Kyley: Yeah. Right. It's self of itself becomes self fulfilling.
Eva: yeah
Kyley: Yes. Yes. Yes. Oh, let's do joy because I have a perfect joy, which will be an example of all of
Eva: okay great why don't you go what's something that's bringing you joy right now Kylie Caldwell?
Kyley: Valentine's Day with my children. So today's recording this. It's Valentine's Day and. We, for whatever reason this year, we just, it was just like craft explosion. So, we, I picked the kids up, we went to Michael's, we bought like all the glitter, and the glue, and the paper, and the whatever the fuck else. And then, they had to make, you know when you're a kid and you have your little box with your name on it.
Kyley: So we like wrapped them up in brown paper and we were decorating them all. And then, we also had, um, Store bought valentines, but then I'd bought these really fun little keychains. And so we were, because you can't give out candy anymore so then we were, they were three [01:23:00] hole punching the Valentine and then we were Tying these cute little keychains onto them all and they had to write, he had to write everyone's name in their class Which is a fucking thing when you're five and eight it took, and like literally like I'm gonna be finding glitter in my kitchen for days Jays.
Kyley: And then we woke up this morning and they also, their school does what they call like party in a bag where they can bring one salty and one sweet snack and they get like extra snack time and they like usually watch a movie or something. And then to decorate the party in a bag. And it was just like a whole thing this morning of like, I made them microwave popcorn.
Kyley: That's like always what I give them for the party in a bag. And so it's just like a whole thing of like going to the Michaels. which was like really fun and also, oh my fucking god, can you stop slamming the cart into everything? And then everyone was so amped about like the glitter and the glue and the stickers that we went to bed like 90 minutes after bedtime.
Kyley: They were so excited it took them like an hour to fall asleep. This morning we had to record the podcast 20 minutes [01:24:00] late because I was so busy like getting everyone to help pick out the perfect red and pink clothes, you know? So
Eva: It was an extravaganza.
Kyley: an extravaganza and to the point of this overwhelm overflow I can a thousand percent see the version of this that is miserable because I am just like oh but it's bedtime oh but like just like just like man just the man that just like thinking and trying to control and trying to make it right and trying to get up like and instead I was just like oh did the glitter just fall all over the floor okay okay we got glitter floor you know I just was like and I had a
Eva: that's like a perfect example of the letting go and like the letting go of control. But also like being, cause you were saying like, I don't know how to do that, but the being like being Kylie as, as you are in that moment, things, letting things be exactly in that moment. Like that sounds to me like you, you were doing it, you were like, okay, I'm just being with how it is.
Eva: And then you get to like experience, yeah, [01:25:00] the abundance of it. Let it in. Mm
Kyley: which also included, like, by the end of Michael's, I was so fucking annoyed at my kids that I literally sent them to the corner of the room and was like, Go look at those stuffed animals, don't talk to me until I ring up this stuff, right? But, the, like, the, the, but then, then I, then that also, I just shook off, right?
Kyley: That also wasn't a thing that I held was like, but I was supposed to have fun and then I was mad and then it was just like, yeah, okay, I sent them away.
Eva: Yes.
Kyley: Fine, right? Um, so yes, I think I appreciate you pointing out. I actually do this. We're just spreading it into more areas and And like, that's the kind of abundance that I have in my life, especially in this chapter, which is like, it is all too much.
Kyley: It all doesn't fit like this literal over the floor. Like I'm in a literal over the floor chapter of my life. It is inherently the kind of abundance that doesn't fit into the party in a bag back [01:26:00] bag, right? Like part of Desi's snack didn't fit in his party in a bag. Like that's the kind of abundance that I'm in right now.
Kyley: And the suffering is when I think That's a problem
Eva: yeah.
Kyley: a thing to be corrected and managed and fixed instead of like, no, actually it doesn't, it doesn't all fit. It just doesn't, the balls are going to keep on, the glitter is going to, it's going to be glitter instead of balls. The glitter is going to keep falling on the floor and it's just supposed to right now.
Kyley: That's just the way it
Eva: It's, that's just the way it is. And then, and these are the moments when you look back and you're like, wow. Like my life was so sweet and abundant in those moments. Yeah, oh,
Kyley: everybody. Thanks for going on this journey with me. This is very
Eva: I thought I thought that was a good like tie up of all of that in the end. Okay, I see what you did there. Nice.
Kyley: yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
Eva: Okay, as
Kyley: my love?
Eva: yeah, says for me, let's see. Um, oh, you know what? Um, I think I had, okay, I think I wrote down two things because I wanted to [01:27:00] remember. Um, actually there are two things that are kind of related. I, something that's been bringing me so much joy recently is cooking and like the joy of cooking. Because you know sometimes cooking can end up being like a drag or at least in, I generally, you know me, I love food.
Eva: I love eating. Generally, food is a joyful thing, but sometimes, you know, you get in a funk and you're like, I don't know what to cook, or it just feels like a chore, and it doesn't, and, and the joy can get sucked out of it, and, you know, it can be, you can feel like, oh, it takes up so much time, but I don't know, I've just fallen into this, maybe because I hadn't had a cook, I didn't get a chance to cook in Taiwan as much, and.
Eva: It is a very joyful, relaxing, abundant thing for me. And I get to like, listen to my music and maybe I'll like have like a beer or something like that, or like, and I love food so much and it's summer here. So like, I love. The seasonal, you know, like the, all the colorful vegetables and all that. So,
Eva: and I love it when I feel really connected with [01:28:00] food and like the ideas come to me really naturally of like creative things that like, I've just been, I've fucking killing it in the kitchen. I think is like what I'm also feeling. I've been killing it in the kitchen. Just like. Sorry, I had to go into detail this morning.
Eva: I made the most bomb ass. I just took some like leftover to me, killing it in the kitchen is when you take like the five random ingredients that you have in your fridge and just make something impromptu. That's like, awesome. I took some cabbage that I like used a, what do you call that? Um,
Kyley: Julian
Eva: in things like, yeah, to make a little fine slices.
Eva: And then we're through using some shiitake mushrooms and, um, shiitake mushrooms and some like finely chopped zucchini. And then. I threw some egg in it and then just put it on my frying pan and it became like this cabbage omelette, like Asian style cabbage omelette, like crisp on both sides with some butter and olive oil and it was just chef's kiss and then on top of that put some like hot chili oil and I was like, it took me [01:29:00] like, it took me like 10 minutes and it was just like, oh my god, chef's kiss.
Eva: This is like such an amazing breakfast. I think you may also know I'm very passionate about breakfast. So, so,
Kyley: also just laughing before we recorded everybody. I was even I were laughing about how much if we live near each other, her and Nick would just be besties. And I would just have to like go entertain myself elsewhere where they talked about food and
Eva: Nick being Kylie's husband, by the way, in case
Kyley: Yes. Thank you. Nick being my husband.
Kyley: And I, this moment I'm like, Oh my God, this is a meal that Nick, like I could see Nick with everything about this is like a Nick Lepre meal. So this is really validating my, you know.
Eva: your suspicion that we'd be good food friends and movie friends and culture friends. Yeah.
Kyley: yes, yes.
Eva: Okay, but to add to this joy is that, um, oh, by the way, the New York Times cooking app is the bomb. If you don't already know, I know a lot of people already know, but. But it's just the best. It's so nice when you have a nice cooking app that supports you and your cooking dreams.
Eva: And I've [01:30:00] been just been cooking for more people. And so with, for Tom and Tom's family that have been here and people have just been like really loving my food. And it's such a good feeling when you cook food and people are like excited about it. And, and, you know, some, some person was like, it feels so luxurious to be cooked for.
Eva: And I was like, I'm so happy that I get to do something joyful. That is then, you know, a gift that can be received by other people and through this thing that I'm so passionate about that's food and it's healthy and it's beautiful and I'm like, you know, food can be art for sure. And I'm just, I'm just in a moment where I'm really inspired by that.
Eva: And sometimes, you know, I ebb and flow out of it because sometimes I'm like, I hate when I get into that rut and I'm like, I don't know what to cook. I'm cooking the same thing all the time. So that's my joy.
Kyley: Destroy. And I want to add one more little bonus joy, which is your earrings.
Eva: Oh,
Kyley: They are so cute. And listeners are these, like they look like they're like crush. Like they're [01:31:00] almost like they're fabric. And then these giant sunflowers that are reddish, orange, and yellow. Girl, every time you wear, like, red or reddish orange or orange, like, it just, especially this kind of, like, red orange, that particular red orange hue, is just, I think, it's your color.
Kyley: It's
Eva: Oh my God,
Kyley: vibrant on you, that, that really rich red orange
Eva: is so sweet. It's so nice when you get a random compliment like that. And I just have to shout out for these earrings. They are beaded, so Yeah, they're beads. Anyway, I'll, I'm, you may have seen me wear on Instagram. They're my absolute favorite. There's like a pop of color, you know, like it's a rainy day here and I like, you know, I just, it and some, it's nice when your jewelry can just bring you a little bit of, you know, extra joy.
Eva: Friends, thank you for joining us on yet another Meandering, crazy like, I don't know, mind, mind bending [01:32:00] conversation. I hope I.
Kyley: We love you all so much.