In this heart-opening conversation, we sit down with Shahem - Black queer therapist, content creator, and community organizer whose work bridges grief, joy, and resistance.
In this heart-opening conversation, we sit down with Shahem - Black queer therapist, content creator, and community organizer whose work bridges grief, joy, and resistance.
Together we explore how to grieve in a culture that doesn’t make space for loss, how joy can be a radical practice of survival, and how resistance can look like choosing authenticity when the world wants you numb. This episode is a reminder that balance is about staying connected to ourselves and each other through it all.
In this episode we explore:
✨ Grief as more than death—why losing a job, identity, or sense of autonomy deserves to be honored as loss
🌀 The three pillars of balance: grief, joy, and resistance—and how each keeps the others alive
❤️ How to actually grieve
💬 Men and emotional disconnection—what patriarchy steals from everyone, and why reclaiming tenderness is liberation
🔥 Resistance as the everyday practice of showing up authentically”
🌈 Community as the antidote to despair—why healing, grieving, and joy all require other people
💡 “Not enoughness” as a tool of oppression—and how reclaiming your own enoughness becomes an act of defiance
🌻 Finding your role in the revolution—why balance means giving what you can, in the ways that are true to you
If you’ve been feeling overwhelmed, cynical, or unsure how to stay tender in the face of so much collective pain, let this conversation be a place to land.
Connect with Shahem -
https://links.5hahem.com/
A Gentle & Fierce Path Forward: A Workbook for Staying Present, Committed and Resourced in Times of Crisis
https://portal.kyleycaldwell.com/gentle-fierce-workbook
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Eva's instagram: @iamevaliao
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Kyley's Instagram: @kyleycaldwell
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Eva: [00:00:00] Hey everyone. Welcome back to Hello Universe. Today we're so excited to have Shaheem who is a black queer therapist and content creator, currently stationed in Brooklyn, New York. Shaheem assists, marginalized patriarchy and impacted people and coping with the stress and trauma of it all.
And we are really, really just, um, honored to see what we're gonna get into today. 'cause I think you're gonna have some really helpful, uh, support. And I just wanna add something that I think is so special about the flavor of work that you do is that you really bring therapy to people in a non-conventional way that is accessible and I think gets [00:01:00] people to listen if, you know, 'cause it's not like psychobabble.
And I really like that.
Shahem: You. I received that. I appreciate it too.
Eva: So welcome to the show.
Shahem: Thank you for having me. I'm so excited to be here.
Eva: Oh, yay.
Kyley: W just, we were chatting just briefly before we hit record, and you were speaking really beautifully about the intersection of balance between grief and joy and resistance, and I don't know, we don't have listeners for whom that is not also an live topic. And, um, I would love to give you the floor and share what is alive in your life and how you are, how you are you are, how you are processing, how you are holding up the intersection of grief and joy and resistance in this complicated moment.
Eva: Yeah, especially in like the work that you do, because what you do is that you support other people as well, which is a complicated like line to tote, you know?
Shahem: Yeah, uh, for sure. And [00:02:00] what I'll say first is that a lot of people rightfully have. Really scathing criticisms towards like the utility of therapy in this moment. Uh, the reality is that therapy is not a solved capitalism in any of the other institutions that we, in, systems we exist within. And I want to just note that first because I get that that pushback a lot when I start talking about how we can resist through finding joy and balancing ourselves between resisting and like connecting with others and grieving all at the same time because it keeps us going.
Um, I'm in no way, shape or form dismissing the, the throes of these systems that like keep all of us under its boot every day. Uh, some of us to different extents. That's just a disclaimer I like to give before I jump into it. But yeah, it's super difficult right now in this moment [00:03:00] trying to balance everything out.
It's so, it's also super easy to burn out. Um, I'm not sure if y'all are familiar with how bad the job market is right now, for example. So many people are just overworked or not worked at all and completely underpaid. Struggling to get from one end of the week to the next. And I'm someone who firmly believes that the antithesis to a lot of the issues we have as a society lies in connecting with other people in our society.
And what that means is community is the key for me. And I think grief work happens best in community. I think joy happens best in community, and I think resistance happens best in community. And that is something that, that I try to embody in the work that I do and how I show up to the online and digital space, how I show up in real life as much as I can.
And I try to encourage other people to do the same. I think grief right now is super complicated. My goal, one [00:04:00] of my goals. Is to provide people with the framework for how to grieve properly or how to grieve not quickly. 'cause quickly isn't the right language I would use, but how to grieve and allow themselves the space to do so.
So it can form faster than it would if you ignored or tried to avoid grief. Uh, a lot of the education that I provide online, for example, is geared towards helping people improve, like their emotional intelligence, how to improve their emotion, emotion processing speeds, um, how we can connect with other people, how to humanize each other, like professions, especially helping professionals, like how to humanize like even therapy.
Uh, there's this beautiful. Uh, count on, uh, Instagram and also a book that that that, uh, the author who runs that account wrote called Decolonizing Therapy. And that is like central in a lot of the ways that I approach what I do. I don't believe in [00:05:00] the stale, uh, monotonous, like talkie talkie therapy as much as I believe and truly helping people get in their bodies and helping people to connect to like their trauma grieve.
And also at the same time finding connections with other people, practicing joy, because joy is a practice, uh, doing things that contribute to their overall wellbeing while simultaneously showing up in the world authentically, uh, challenging a lot of the pre pre scripts that we've been taught in, uh, indoctrinated into as people operating in this society.
And I think it's just. So important to find a balance between the, uh, uh, those three things. Uh, I always say my favorite B word is balance because it, it, it genuinely is. And I like a lot of other B words. Um, but I genuinely think that that's the way that we're gonna get to the future. And that is like finding balance between those three things.
Because one of the ways that [00:06:00] we get burnt out by these. And should I say the opposition? And the opposition could be whatever it is to you, right? It could be capitalism, it could be white supremacy, white supremacist. It could be the current administration. Whatever you feel like you're resisting in this lifetime.
The larger machines that we are up against often burn us out and burn us down by dwindling away at our authenticity, our true senses of selves taken away from my ability to connect to other people and ultimately stopping us from being able to resist. Uh, so my, my goal is to try and combat that in my little corner of the world as much as I possibly can.
And I'm hoping I'm doing a good job. I'm here, so hopefully somebody sees me. Um,
Eva: Okay, wait, let me, let me recap the three things that you think are the, the things we wanna balance. You, you were saying processing grief, practicing joy, and the third one is a community.
Shahem: Well, uh, grief, authenticity, it's, the words change a lot if you [00:07:00] listen to what I say, but they are, sometimes they are interchangeable, but grief, uh, resistance and, um, joy.
Eva: Okay. Okay. Okay.
Kyley: We, oh, sorry. Go ahead. Go
Eva: No, I have so many questions, Kyley, but I think you, you look like you're locked and loaded.
Kyley: Well, I was gonna, I was wondering if we could do like a little tour, a pit stop on each of these three. Right. So you mentioned have like a framework of, of grief and Yeah. Walk us through grief. Like what is it that we most, what are we missing? What are we in need of when it comes to grief, when it comes to really being in intimacy with our grief and, and, and grieving community.
Shahem: Um, I think one of the main. that people run into when it comes to grief work is not being able to identify when they are grieving. I find that we're so accustomed to grief only looking like, uh, when people physically die, for example, and not when you're struggling really hard to find a [00:08:00] job in a job market that is really bad and you are, you're losing your sense of autonomy, you're grieving that.
Like, that's not as simple as like just a hard time. So one.
Eva: my God, that is so good. Sorry, I just, I love how we're starting at the basics because I oftentimes jump all the way to be like, okay, how can I be with my feelings and stop the resistance, but. It always starts with awareness. And I completely think you, I mean, I'm guilty of that, of just like moving it along, you know?
And I'm, I consider myself really self-aware and even just hearing you say that, I'm like, oh, I can see how there is grief and I'm not calling it that, and I'm just kind of moving on to the next thing.
Kyley: I had my own experience with this just yesterday. Right. And again, you know, we like to think we're self-aware over here, but sometimes when you think you're self-aware it's, it's actually like its own very sneaky way to that you, you know, um, of avoidance. But yeah, I like, I just had this moment where I have an 8-year-old and a 6-year-old and my 6-year-old did something that hurt my feelings [00:09:00] and, um, and.
Like, I felt this cavern open inside of me that I was like, oh, this is like, what a, what a blessing. That this little thing interaction hurt my feelings because there was this thing underneath that I immediately could see. I've been like tap dancing on the top of for months that has nothing to do with my daughter.
And mostly to do with the existential, I think, moment that we're in. Um, uh, but um, yeah, it was like, oh, that's, it's grief. And then I just laid on the couch and was really sad in my very attu, intuitive. 8-year-old was like, are you okay mom? Because I was just like, I wasn't crying. I just, he's really tapped.
But I was just like, I could feel the grief and I could feel the relief. I was like, oh yeah, that's what this has been. I jumped, we jumped in to interrupt you. Carry on. We do that. We get excited.
Eva: yeah, we get excited and we like to dialogue, but can you talk more about like, how do.
Shahem: Yeah. Um, [00:10:00] I look pretty much every client that I have, um, that I work with will tell you they eventually get sat down and we have the grief conversation, and I walk them through the different stages of grief and we pretty much go through and talk about like, what each stage can look like when someone, like, in the ways that we're accustomed to processing grief, like physical death.
We'll go through that first and then we'll start back like, and it's like, okay, but what does this look like when people are grieving things that aren't Things like physical death, things that are not obviously grief, right? Sometimes denial, for example, can sound like I'm okay or everything's fine. Uh, when it's not.
Uh, sometimes we trick ourselves into thinking that we've accepted things and we haven't because we're still in denial. We're just like starting the cycle back over again and. Grief each stage. I use the Kular Ross model because it's just like for simplicity. But there are so many different models that [00:11:00] go into so many different, uh, facets of grief, for example.
Denial can be broken down into things like shock, um, and things along those lines. But for simplicity, yeah, I go through the five stages and like to break down like what it could really look like when you're trying to make sense of loss. Uh, and loss could be anything. Loss could be your autonomy, your sense of self, your country.
It could be anything. And I think I like to walk people through it and specifically through situations that they encounter in their own lives. But when I do community work, I like to walk through group, group grief. Like what are we missing as a group? What do we feel like we're losing as a group? Who needs to be heard, who feels like they're not heard?
And when we go through that, what does that look like when we put it in a framework of grief? Uh, so identifying grief is. It is a lengthy conversation if y'all wanna have that conversation. But each stage looks differently. Like a lot of people don't understand bargaining, uh, can often [00:12:00] look like ruminating on the past or would've, could've, should've, if only I did this.
If this didn't happen, then this wouldn't have happened. Reflecting back and feeling stuck in that past, even though there's nothing you could do to change the past, 'cause the past has been done, it's already over. Um, and it's okay that we find ourselves there too. And I wanna highlight that grief serves a really important purpose, and each stage is important.
Sometimes we're in denial because we're not ready to face emotional pain. Sometimes we need to bargain with the past so we can make sense of it, so we can understand what transpired fully before we move on to. A future where there's hopefully hope all of these stages. Um, and they're not, they're not as neat and in order as, you know, it may seem.
But all of these stages serve a really important purpose and function. But I find that people get stuck when they can't identify what these stages look like. And they can often look one way for one person in a completely different way for [00:13:00] the next. But being able to identify some telltale signs and understand what the stages represent and what they, what they're there for, helps people to get back in touch with that inner compass, right when you can.
And I like I emotion serves such an important biological function. So when you go through the grieving process, you're allowing yourself to clear up space for you to get in touch with that compass that can guide you through like. Life and connecting with others, connecting with yourself, getting things done, being passionate about restorative work, uh, connecting with community resistance, you know, joy, it clears the space for that.
So grief is really important in that triangle because without that, it's really hard to connect with the others. And the compass is the thing that guides all of it, if you ask me. That makes any lick of sense, because sometimes I speak in like I'm accused often by my clients of speaking in metaphor a lot.
Kyley: Oh, you.
Eva: yeah, you, you two will be in good company here, but that makes [00:14:00] so much sense. And I am actually, I'm also just really struck by like. What I'm sensing from you is just, there's so much compassion there for people's experience of being like, and sometimes it's okay that we have to bargain because that's just where we're at and we can't move past our evolution.
You know? We just have to be with exactly where we are. But, and I'm, I'm personally grateful for this framework 'cause I can be like, you know, I can go and do, do some research and learn more about the stages of grief and see if I can identify. And that's great. And also, I'm a big proponent, I mean, anyone, anyone on the show knows of like, you know, no one can do your work for you and you don't do it alone.
And what I'm seeing here is like also the value of having like healing spaces, whether it's like therapy, which I'm a big, big fan of, or you know, working with healers, whatever, to help, to help you, to help reflect back to you what you are, what you can't see. 'cause I can sense that that's also what you're pointing to is like.
We don't know that bargaining is grief and that we don't know that when we're [00:15:00] doing that thing where we're ruminating in the past, that that's also, you know, that's just kind of blowing my mind a little bit, to be honest.
Shahem: I do wanna, uh, even thank you. That's a really amazing, like, point. And I wanna also highlight that my favorite author, Pete Walker, um, he's one of my favorite authors. He wrote the book Complex, PTSD, from Surviving to Thriving. If you haven't read it, please read it. It's such an amazing book. But in that book, he talks about, uh, the components necessary to grief, right?
A lot of the times we even talk about like the stages of grief, and I was just talking about this, mind you, but we talk about the stages of grief, but we don't give people the tools necessary to grieve. Like, what do you need to do in order to get through these stages when you find yourself stuck? And Pete Walker talks about four essential components with the, the baseline being that you have to start with feeling your feelings.
Which is hard for some people, but there are many resources like widely available and free on the internet. [00:16:00] And I always try to connect people to free resources because a lot of us think that these, these things that could help us heal ourselves are always behind a paywall. And the reality is this, they are not.
And if I do anything with my time here on this, on this, uh, big ball of rock floating through the sky, I hope that I can help people be more resourceful and find these resources on their own and know that you do not have to, I'm trying to say this in a way that won't get my board, uh, on my neck. You don't have to buy into.
Every system in order for you to access healing. Um, and we have tools, and those tools are amazing. But the second you can find like something that can help you get in touch with your emotions better, and you can feel those feelings, there are four things that you have to do in order to grieve properly, that's verbally ventilate with people that you feel safe with and that [00:17:00] you can trust.
That is anger. It's okay for you to be angry. It's okay for you to blame. It's okay for you to storm and be mad, uh, just so long as you get to the point where you feel what's underneath of that, that anger. Uh, you can cry. That's the third thing. You have to cry. But ultimately, the fourth thing is gonna be you have to be compassionate with yourself while you're going through the process.
And with that, I like to say, oh, how, how much can I curse here?
Kyley: As much as you want. My favorite review of all time is we have, we have one, one star review and they said the show's great, but why do they have to swear so much?
Eva: I'm like, the more the better. You
Kyley: sure is directed at me. Eva's like more moderate. I have a
Shahem: So, uh, I always, when I'm explaining why it's important to be compassionate with yourself, I tell people, like, imagine a kid who grew up in a household where every time they expressed themselves, their pa, their family, or their parents told them that they were a piece of shit for having feelings versus someone who grew up in a household where they were able to express themselves and they [00:18:00] were met with compassion, uh, understanding and nurturance.
Which of those kids do you think will grow up to have a better sense of self and a higher self-esteem? And everybody's always like, yeah, the person who didn't grow up in a household, being told that they're a piece of shit every day. And it's like, okay, then why would you think that you can successfully grieve if you talk to yourself in a way that is degrading, belittling, berating, or any of those things align with that.
It's not really conducive to, to your growth. So self-compassion is. One that I like to emphasize the most, you have to learn how to talk to yourself. We are all conditioned growing up in a society that's super harsh and judgmental, and again, we're all indoctrinated into ideas about who we need to be, how we need to wake up in the morning, who we need to align ourselves with, what we should be doing, what our identity should be, how we should live.
Like everything, like we're judged by like what we wear, like what we like, every single thing we are judged, uh, for in this society it is so [00:19:00] important for you to be able to break out of that and to be compassionate with yourself. That's the main component if you ask me to. Grief and grieving, and it helps you through the process.
Once you master the elements to grieving, when you find yourself stuck, it's easier to get unstuck is my point.
Eva: Oh my God. I just, I love, I love a, like a practical plan. I have to say, my Capricorn mind is very satisfied. I'm like, Ooh, this is like this very, I mean, obviously it's nuanced and, and it can go and, you know, there's practice here, but I also feel like this is so applicable and down to earth. I wanna ask, this is just a very, um, it's, I don't wanna get too much into this, but I'm really curious about this crying piece.
You had mentioned like, you have to cry. Did you mean that literally, because I'm, I'm really curious about people who, I mean, I'm a crier, so that's, but I, I am curious, like, do you think that if you're not able to release that from your body, that you're not having the full grieving experience? And I, and I ask this because I'm actually particularly thinking [00:20:00] about the men in my life who, um, you know.
Shahem: much longer conversation. Uh, which answer do you want? Do you want the therapy answer or do you want the Shaheem answer?
Eva: Oh,
Kyley: want the Shaheem
Eva: answer.
Shahem: I will say the therapy answer is grief looks different for everybody, and I do believe that like crying is not gonna be necessary. Crying is about letting your body release, like crying is a physical release of grief. Um, the shaheem answer is, uh, men are from the moment they are sent out into the world often when they are in the home.
Thankfully, for some homes, not when they're in the home, disconnected from the most important part of their humanity, which is their emotions, they are often taught that expressing themselves is weak. And in doing that, they often find themselves having to [00:21:00] stick to some of the more so societally acceptable components of grief like angering.
But they find, I'm like, how much of a shaheem answer can I give?
Eva: Like we want
Kyley: I, well, I really, I'm speeding this up. Yes, yes, yes.
Eva: Don't hold back. Don't hold back. This is what we came for.
Kyley: Yeah,
Shahem: a lot of men are like, uh, robbed, I will say, of having the ability to experience the full range of humanity and human emotion. And I think that's a huge reflection of where we are as a society. Uh, if you look at everything near everything, because I know how people get near everything wrong in our society.
It can be traced back to a man. And I think that is for a very particular reason. The patriarchy has conditioned a lot of men to be violent and to aggress anyone who does express themselves emotionally, because again, it's viewed as weak and I don't think that could be any further from the truth.
Eva: [00:22:00] Mm-hmm.
Kyley: one of the. Um, times that I saw this really clearly was when I was buying baby clothes for my now 8-year-old. And you walk through the clothing section and girls, everything obviously has like pink and frills on it, but there's a explosion of color and you walk into the boys section and everything is Black Navy and Neon.
Like from the very beginning you are like, you are told boys, like, get this like gray scale of experience, right? And women can have lots, but you know, we get, but also it's all like, you know, there's a silly superfluous new it, but you, you can have depth, but you're silly and hysterical, which I'll take any day.
Um, and um, and I, I just couldn't agree more with this. Like real, I think real violence that's done against men, which then turns into violence against everybody else.
Shahem: Yeah. Not to be even super spiritual about it, but like, you know, color is, [00:23:00] even the example you're giving is a beautiful one because color is so important to a child's, like mental and emotional development and a lot of people discount things like that. And I think a lot of men wind up not only stunted emotionally and uh, mentally, but also spiritually, like it is a certain degree of pH.
Misalignment with spiritual evolution when you are incapable of getting in tune with your, your feelings, your inner compass, that inability to empathize with other people, that inability to be compassionate with yourself and others. That stunts a person's growth, both spiritually, emotionally, and mentally.
If you ask me, and I think a lot of men are conditioned to experience life that way, and I do hope also through my work, that I can lead to a reduction in that over time.
Eva: Yeah. Can you just, I mean, I was like, speak to this more, you know, on your platform. 'cause I feel like I have, I just have this complicated relationship with like, feeling genuine [00:24:00] compassion for the men in my life because I used to be more like, I don't know, blamey and, and, and resentful. And I was like, wait, actually, like, it's like this because they're in a system that is all fucked up.
And how sad is it that they don't get to have this emotionally rich experience that I get to have. And, and it's just, it's beautiful because that's what makes me so human and so alive. But I also recognize that it's that stuntedness that like that is causing so much of the chaos in the world. And I can see that that's a lot of where the healing is.
And also I'm not, I don't know. Do you think we have a role in, in helping what, where, what, what can I do in that department with like with the men in my life?
Shahem: That's a complicated question. Do we have a role in helping? I think I have more of a role than you do. I don't think it's fair to request of women and people who are afab to like clean up the mess that men have made. I think someone like me who is a male who is a [00:25:00] little aware of like the nonsense that men have contributed to in this society, have more of a responsibility to address this issue.
I think men overall are responsible for fixing this issue because it impacts men just as much. Men are hurting just as much. I don't know if y'all are aware of the suicide rates, but men are hurting just as much. Unfortunately, we exist in a world where men are also being radicalized and conditioned to believe that women are at the root of their sufferings.
And that couldn't be further from the truth. Um, in fact, the more they blame women and the more they try to go back in time to a, a, a reality that just doesn't, it can't exist anymore. Where women have to be subservient and dependent on men, the more they try to go back to that. I'm, I'm, I'm realizing the more that they're hurting.
And I think it is not your responsibility, but I do think we all owe each other, uh, each other everything. I think we exist in a society where we've been taught that we owe each other nothing. And [00:26:00] back to what I said before, that couldn't be any further from the truth. I think we owe each other everything, and I think we should help out as much as we can, but without compromising ourselves and like.
Having to sacrifice like our dignity, right? Because I do think there's a certain dignity loss when someone who is marginalized has to, uh, coddle their oppressor. And I just, that's not, I think in, in any way, shape or form on the duty of women, uh, to, to address these larger issues around patriarch.
Kyley: [00:27:00] [00:28:00] have a thought of one thing that I actually do think is, maybe responsibility isn't the right word, but is an opportunity from a like spiritual energetics perspective, which is the more deeply. Like, Eva, you or me internalize that our depth of emotion and our willingness to feel our emotions is actually really strong.
Right? And the more like you just think of like if you think of the energetics of the more I allow my wild range of emotions to exist and be, and see that as strength and see that as wisdom. It's [00:29:00] like a pulling back from a kind of pa like right, just like unhooking from some layer of that patriarchy.
And I really do feel like on this subtle level, the more we unhook from where we are, what, where am I plugged into this system and then I pull my own energy back and then eventually there's just not enough shit propping it up. I think I also personally have responsibility to, I got a son, so I have one, one opportunity there.
But I, I feel like for you, Eva, it's like, and you already view this so beautifully, but it's like even more, where can I call back the places where I am believing that? My softness or my feelings are weak and how can I like really celebrate them as strength and then therefore unhook from something that eventually then, then I'm not feeding it, and then it will crumble bit by bit.
Eva: That's beautiful. I love that. And I, yeah, I think that's a, yeah, that's super helpful in terms of like what my contribution can be and you know, it starts with the self. Um, and though I'm gonna continue asking questions because I'm curious. [00:30:00] I so appreciate you talking about like, you know, it's not my job or our job to clean up the, you know, I get that, I get that to take on more responsibility, but also like, actually Kyley, I'm kind of thinking about you.
Like where, so then where was, I'm gonna give Kyley as an example, her husband. So Capricorn like him and I are very alike in a lot of ways. But like, what's the role of say like in partnership? When, when, when? Yeah. What's the role in partnership and also, and then you also have a son and I just see that you mothering so beautifully and you're like, there's a lot you can do there, you know, in terms of just
Kyley: mean, I just call him on his shit just like he calls me on my shit. Right. But like, you know, I mean, first of all, just one of the most, um, I mean, I could cry. One of the most amazing things ever I might cry is seeing my husband be so gentle with our, we have a, our son is very sensitive, right? Like, one time I was like, Desi, when you walk into a classroom, do you feel everyone else's emotions?
And he is like, oh yeah. And he starts rattling off where [00:31:00] everyone in the classroom is feeling. I was like, just so you know, that's not what everyone else is experiencing, you know? And, um, and like when, and he, he is eight years old, he told me recently that, uh, the Sharks really ruined finding Nemo. Like he's just the most tenderhearted kid.
And I give that context because like things are big for him. And my husband grew up without. You know, without his father being able to be sensitive, like emotionally present for him, he since has been sober and it's really, really amazing. But my father-in-law grew up without emotion. He's a sensitive person who didn't have that.
And what I get to see is like my husband get down on his knees and like give Izzy a hug when he's just like having big feelings and he just being like, it's okay. It's okay, kid. And like I'm really teared, teared up because I watch how it's like actively breaking a fucking cycle and is like so big. And I also then I'm also scared all the time that it's still not enough for my very tender sun [00:32:00] because I feel like the depth of his tenderness also feels like there's a, it feels like a like higher risk of than like.
It's uncomfortable to feel everything a lot. I know that personally. Right. And so then are you more vulnerable, more susceptible to, like, anger feels safer or, you know, addiction feels safer or, um, whatever the case may be. But that's a ramly answer, but to answer your actual question, yeah. I feel like my job is just to calm my husband on a shit when he forgets.
That's
Eva: Oh, great. Awesome. That's doable.
Shahem: Yeah, it brings me back to that, uh, that, that, that statement that I use a lot, which is my favorite B word, is balance. Like there is a balance between being gentle and calling people on their shit. It. And I think a lot of life comes down to finding balance. Um, we are spiritual on, this is a spiritual podcast, right?
Kyley: mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
Eva: go, we get way out there.
Shahem: Okay.
Kyley: Yes.
Shahem: I will never forget, I'm like this, disregard this. If you're a client of mine listening to this, I'll never forget [00:33:00] one time I tripped acid and I was like literally running through a field barefoot. And I came across this river and I was like, there were jellyfish in the river and it was just all so beautiful.
And I realized in that moment, this is like my third eye waking up. I was just like, oh my God. Everything is cycles. And it's about balance. Like, and it sounds so simple, but when you're high outta your mind, it just really feels so.
Eva: Well, when you feel it, when you like experience it, you know, then it's like in you,
Shahem: Don't abuse psychedelics y'all. I'm not telling.
Eva: that's not what we're promoting here.
Shahem: But I will say that was like one of the markers in my journey where I realized like how important balance is and every, like, I think every, look I'm doing it literally right now. Every major issue can be traced down to black and white thinking. And even that is wrong because that was black and white thinking.
Eva: Exactly.
Shahem: from yourself.
Eva: Exactly.
Shahem: Like, I think finding balance is so important. Um, and being [00:34:00] able to call yourself on your shit too, uh, and having people who will do it around you is so important. That's balance. Um, and not like marrying yourself to anything too specific. Being open, um, to change and. You know, finding love, like letting that be your anchor, letting that be your root, like it sounds like you love your family and cherish them really deeply.
Like to the point where you're emotional, that that means a lot. You know, uh, someone who did family therapy for years, uh, one of the ways that you even like balance that out is through reframing a lot of the tension that we have for what's underneath of it, which is often love. Like you just want to be heard by a person you love and that leads attention.
Things like that. Finding that balance, finding, finding the cycle, breaking those cycles and creating new ones is I think the, the key to the future. And doing that not only on our micro levels, like individually interpersonally, but on a macro level, which is a little harder. Um, yeah.
Kyley: Okay. Can I then ask [00:35:00] you speak to speak a little bit, speaking of like this macro, micro, macro, we talk about resistance? I'm aware that I'm skipping over joy, which is a whole fucking metaphor in and of itself. Our final question is about Joyce, but I'm in the interest of time. Can you talk about the, the third item you gave us in balance is about resistance.
And I know that is like top of mind for so many people and a lot of people are banging against, you know, a lot of the grief I think is wrapped up in futility. What feels fu the feeling of futility. And so I would just love your sermon on resistance and balance and resistance in this moment.
Shahem: Yes. Um, first off, if you're someone who is active in organizing, please take care of yourself. It is so important that you, that you do so, um, that is the balance that you have to deal with and tackle the most. But for all of us, um, and I'll just simply tell a story that my, uh. I had a professor in, uh, when I was in grad school, [00:36:00] every class she would start off, it was my diversity, racism, oppression, and privilege class.
She would ask us like, how did you resist the patriarchy today? I mean, I think that that's just such
Kyley: Oh, that's my new dinner conversation. Forget,
Eva: so good.
Kyley: part of school? How did you resist the patriarchy today?
Shahem: No seriously, like questions like that. Um, and, uh, I believe it was Nikki Giovanni who asked, like, who are, who are you outside of your oppression? Like who, who are you? Like, how do you exist as someone outside of just like who you've been marginalized or conditioned to be? Those type of questions have really embedded into my own personal philosophy and how I approach resistance.
And I think resistance can be as simple as showing up authentically as yourself and challenging the ways that we've been indoctrinated to view certain institutions like gender. Like what does it mean to you to be your gender if you're a woman? Like what does it mean to be a woman? Like what do you prescribe that to?
Where do you reduce it [00:37:00] down to, but also resisting the urge to police other people and how they express themselves so long as they aren't hurting anyone. You know what I mean?
Eva: Mm-hmm.
Shahem: It is a balance, of course, but it all comes down to balance. But I think resistance is just simply like challenging the systems that we exist within to the best of our ability in the small ways and the big ways together individually, separately, I think is how, again, this is one of the pathways to the future and yeah.
Eva: Wow.
Kyley: Um, the phrase that dropped into my mind as you were speaking that is like, let your existence itself be the resistance.
Shahem: Mm-hmm.
Kyley: Yeah. Yeah.
Eva: And what I'm taking away from that is also that that's, I think my story is always like, it's not enough. It's not enough. Like I get so stressed out about how like, and that's where I start to feel the hopelessness actually is. Like, I just have really, it's guilt, first of all, just like this [00:38:00] Asian guilt that I, that I have that's very strong and just that it's not enough.
And, but your examples that I, I, I really struggle between the. It's everything like my own, like decolonial, like decolonizing my own dialogue and my own relationship with myself and all of that. And on some sense just feels like everything. And again, this is just more black in the white thinking. And then it goes to, it's everything and then it's nothing.
And then I'm like, it's not enough. And then I have, and it's and, and I get caught in that loop.
Shahem: So two things in response to that, right? One. Thank you for sharing that. Um,
Eva: Just please help.
Shahem: of, a lot of us deal with that, right? And I think it's human to, to get in those moments. Uh, depression, the depressive phase of grief is like noted to be underscored with hopelessness, like feeling like nothing is enough.
Nothing can change. We're not doing enough. There's nothing that can be done.
Eva: Yep.
Shahem: There's no point. Everything is futile. Right? And I [00:39:00] always tell people like the difference between depression and hope is just like, sorry, I messed that one up. The difference between depression and acceptance, it's just hope.
Like with acceptance, you can acknowledge that things aren't necessarily where we want them to be as a whole, as a collective, and hope and still envision a better future and know that there are things we can do to get there. The second we give up, that future doesn't exist anymore. Um, so that's the first thing.
The second thing is, um. Uh, the ability to zoom, to zoom in and out like is really helpful when it comes to processing around those moments where we feel like everything is too big or nothing is enough, right? To like, and for some reason this comes up so much when I work with college students, uh, because they are like so stressed out about school always, which makes.
Sense. But if you find yourself in a situation where, for example, you're doing an assignment and you feel like that assignment is so extremely difficult and you feel like it's gonna be the undoing of you, that's a good [00:40:00] opportunity to zoom out and remind yourself like, what are you doing this for? What is, what are your values?
What is pushing you? What is your why? I always tell people, you have to find your why, your motivation to get to the next phase in your journey or what it is that you want. Why are you doing this? Why is it important for you to get this paper done? And sometimes it's imp important for you to zoom in, like to break something down piece by piece.
It's, we can't look at everything as this big, daunting, like monster that we have to fight against sometimes. And this is the social worker model, uh, model. It's like find your corner of the world and change it. Like that's sometimes. Sometimes that's all you can do. And. I hope that that makes sense in response to feeling like sometimes things are just not enough, because I can guarantee you there's at least one or two people in this world that you've impacted on a deep level,
Eva: Mm. Mm-hmm.
Kyley: a few. I'm go ahead and guess.
Shahem: So impacted just by, by being in this space and knowing that is enough to know, like when me personally, I'm like, if I leave [00:41:00] this world having touched two or three people for the better, I did my job. Um, and I think that's something to keep in mind. Zooming in and out on that is helpful and I hope that was.
Eva: Oh my God, it's so helpful. I just felt like when you said that, I just felt I got this whole relief, like wash over my, my body of also what I notice that I don't do and what you're giving me permission to do is like also noticing where I, there is impact and like, and really letting that in. When you said it, I could actually let it in and I, I think it was also just helpful to have the reflection.
But oftentimes it's like all, I don't even see that. I don't see it. I don't let it in at all because when I'm stuck in, not in enough, I discount everything on this side and it's just, and, but I can also see it's helpful just having enough practice to be like. If it's that stressful something, if my thinking is that stressful, something's off, it's because it's too narrowed.
You know what I mean? But I just notice that in times like these, when everything feels super high stakes, my stories get louder. And that's why conver like conversations like these are so helpful.
Shahem: [00:42:00] Community underscores it all. That's why it's so important to be in community with other people. Like I do speak in metaphors, so shouts out to my clients who complain about that. Uh, they love it, but, uh, I always tell my clients like. Can you, can you describe in full detail right now what's happening on your back?
And they're like, no, I can't see my [00:43:00] back. And it's like, exactly. You need other people to sometimes see parts of yourself that you can't see yourself. And it's okay if you lean on other people. Community is the antithesis to a lot of the issues we face in a society, in our society. And I think the more we lean into that, the more you can get the permission that you need.
Because sometimes we need permission. There's nothing wrong with that. Like we need other people to affirm us just as much as we need to affirm ourselves. It's a balance, like that's so, so simplistic. But I also find that sometimes the most simple thing is the most true. Um, we know each other.
Eva: Yeah.
Kyley: I was, um, I did a workshop last week for business owners specifically, like how do you have a, build businesses that build a better, better world? Was kind of the concede of the workshop. Um, and one of the questions that we sat with a lot is, who benefits from you believing that it's not enough? And that, to me r is such stark as someone who is like [00:44:00] constantly unhooking from not.
Enoughness is like, oh, everything that I fucking hate, everything that I wanna see deconstructed is literally like feeding a feast off of my not enoughness.
Shahem: That is a very powerful question. My God, I will be borrowing that.
Kyley: Yes, please, please. So, yeah.
Shahem: Goodness, goodness. Wow. Oh, that's powerful. Oof.
Kyley: when it dropped in, I was like, oh damn, I'm getting called out by my own workshop.
Eva: Mm-hmm.
Shahem: Wow. Yeah, that's a good one.
Kyley: yeah, yeah. And because also, you know, with someone obviously who has a whole bunch of white privilege, like my, not enough knit, when I'm, when I'm, then I'm just feeling shame for my privilege and then I'm not fucking using it, right?
I'm too busy feeling small and ashamed. And that also then reinforces the system. So it's like there might be actual accountability, there might be a way that I am actually dropping the balls or failing to step up to my own ideals, but the not enoughness doesn't actually support that either.[00:45:00]
Eva: Yeah.
Shahem: that's real. And I, I feel that sometimes as like someone who's like male, I'm like, am I doing enough? Like to support like the, the a fbs, like the women, like the fems in my life. Am I doing enough? Sometimes I feel like I'm not, and I feel like, you know, as human, like to feel that sometimes. And it's like we could always be doing more, but I think what.
Also as important is to like acknowledge that we can only do so much and so long as we're putting in solid effort, consistent effort, that matters a lot too. Are you in community with the people who you want to, like who's, who benefits from you, us utilizing your privilege to help them. Does that make sense?
That was a long, a
Kyley: Yes, yes, yes.
Eva: Yes.
Shahem: I'm like, that was a run on sentence, so apologies for
Kyley: love metaphors and run on sentences and swearing here, so I mean, it's your, you fit right in.
Eva: Yeah. Okay. I have another personal question. Basically, this is just turning into therapy for Eva.
Kyley: We love it. We love it.
Eva: Okay. [00:46:00] But I think that oftentimes where I go, when I think about my contribution to the world is truly, and this is, you know, a year, a lifetime practice of like. Ending violence within myself, because I have seen, I've seen when I look like you're talking about the abuse, you know, like the way that we talk to ourself on all of that.
So ending violence within myself, ending like the patriarchy and the colonialism and all of that within myself, essentially, like I, I, I truly believe with my soul that my liberation is if I, you know, a huge contribution to the world. And my, and I, and I've actually seen that because when I'm suffering, all of my suffering comes out sideways.
Meaning like, I'm not just one suffering, but then I'm like defensive. I'm attacking other people. I'm policing other people. You know, it just, it, we all know this, we know that hurt people, hurt people, right? And so if I can not, if I can heal the hurt here, I don't have to perpetuate it outside of myself, and then I [00:47:00] go like, that is my work. I'm wondering if there's, and I think what you're talking about Shaheem is this balance of like, I think I wonder, or I'm cur, I, I think I get self-conscious. I'm just not sure if like, if that's, that's something I think I go to because I feel like I have control over that. You know? Like I don't have control over other people.
And I don't mean control as in like I'm controlling it, but it's like, it's where I feel empowered to make a difference in the world. And then I'm wondering like, but that's micro to me. I'm wondering like, is there a macro where, where there's like the doing more, you know, doing more in terms of like, it's not just all me.
'cause I think that's what I'm worried about with spiritual work is that it can sometimes get so like caught up in the self that then you forget your connection with the other. So I want both of your thoughts on this, you know.
Shahem: Yeah. I will say like that again, you're saying like I, and this is so important, like speaking to the human experience because. That's such a human experience to me. Like, you know, like when we are at like moments where we aren't feeling it the best. Like [00:48:00] sometimes we hurt the people around us. Us sometimes we lash out, sometimes we're defensive, sometimes we're, we're a little snippy.
I for one, could be a really big bitch in the morning. Um, I cannot own that, um, especially in the morning because I'm like, oh my God, I'm so tired.
Eva: Mm-hmm.
Shahem: But I say that to say like, one of the reasons why I think that community underscores like, like all grief, joy, and uh, resistance is that having people who create safety for us to have those, uh, feelings and to experience those feelings and to do those behaviors and who will still love us regardless, is super important.
Doing that healing. You can only heal relationship stuff and relationships. Like that's, that's the reality. And uh, we have this misconception as a society that we have to go within ourselves and always do it alone. And I hope that you can find people, and I'm sure you do have, people seem very communal and a blessing to be around.
So having people around you who can create that safe place for you to [00:49:00] grow through, through that, not just go through it, but to grow through it is important. And I don't know, I think like that's such a human experience. That's where verbal ventilation from, like the components of grief can come in. Like allowing the space for your people to just simply get it out.
Um, having like empathy for where they're coming from, knowing that there's a balance. 'cause you do have to call 'em on their shit, but you do have to, or you can, uh, create the space for that healing to happen. It's, it's like a balance.
Eva: Yeah. I, yeah, but I think my question is more like, as someone who's like, I'm a spear, I'm, I'm a meditation teacher and like a spiritual mentor, so I'm really in the spiritual world, and I, so this is more of like, almost like a ethical spirituality question of like, is it too self-centered just to focus on the self and not be out there calling my senators essentially?
You know what I mean? Like, that's really what it's about. It's like how much of it should be like, not just inner work, but whatever social justice actions I can be taking that isn't just about fixing [00:50:00] myself, even though I don't think it's about fixing myself. I'm, I'm pretty past that. But do you, does that question make sense?
Shahem: yeah. Okay. So capacity, like capacity to like act outside of south. Ah, gotcha. So, yeah, I think it's okay to take breaks when you need breaks, but I do think we owe it to each other to do things. All of us don't play the same position or role, though I know my role, uh, I used to be in the streets during the protest and all that.
I cannot do that anymore, especially as someone who's a little bit more publicly visible and they love to make examples outta people who are more public, publicly visible. So we don't all have to play the same role. Some of us don't have the capacity for calls, but we can definitely like spread the word and get, get the word out in other ways.
I think find what works for you as far as like contributing to community, find your position, your role, but like have a role. I think we owe it to each other and to know when you need to take a step back. The same way, like consuming nothing but dor content is like not helpful to [00:51:00] anyone. It actually can like fry your nervous system.
Eva: Yeah.
Shahem: Know when to take a break and when to take a step back. It's up. I hate to keep saying the B word, but balance. It's about balance. But I do think we owe it to our, ourselves and each other to like contribute to the communal effort to dismantle these systems systems too. And you don't always have to be super vocal about it and you do it in your own way.
Like how have you challenged the patriarchy today? How have you challenged the, challenged these systems? What have you done? Who have you talked to? Who have you touched? Right? Sometimes. And this conversation is so beautiful. By the way, I love when we have these conversations out in the open because you never know who can hear this.
And like something snaps in their brain and they want to get out and do the work too.
Eva: Yep.
Shahem: Allow the, I hope I'm not rambling, but allow the space, like it's, it's a balancing act for you to like know. When you have to pull back and when you should give, but you should be giving. I do agree that [00:52:00] we owe that to each other, but it doesn't have to look one specific way, and a lot of people burn themselves out trying to make it look one way when it doesn't have to be that.
Eva: Yeah. I'm just, I say, I'm just, were you gonna say something, Kyley?
Kyley: Well, I'm just thinking about, uh, Shaheem for context, I'm a like money healer business coach. That's why I'm gonna use businesses as an example. Um, I, one of the things I teach my, like clients a lot is that we have to find the business strategy, the marketing strategy, if you will, that actually like fits you, right?
And a bunch of people burn themselves off in business or like don't see results because they're following like some bro marketing person's blueprint that just like isn't authentic and true for them. And one of the things that I'm thinking about a lot as you're saying that Shaheem, is that the same thing is true of our role in this moment.
And like, own what is true for you and then really show up with to that. And like, I can feel how much my body as, as a mother is like, I, I can't go in the [00:53:00] streets. So like I raised my body. She's like, just like this huge. Nope. Um. And so then I've been really, so then it's like, okay, well what, okay, well then we divest from Amazon and we divest.
Right? What are the, what are the, what are the actions that we can commit to? Um, and then like lean all the way into those instead of the, what I think not enoughness feeds is that we spread ourselves too thin. 'cause we're trying to do all of a little bit and then it feels like we're not making any fucking progress.
And then that feeds our, um, despair and then we spend nine hours zoom scrolling. Just that, just by example. That wasn't my screen time on Zoom scrolling last week at all. At all.
Shahem: I do think that's a beautiful, like, example too. Like, you know, not you're a mom. You have like, you have kids
Eva: Mm-hmm.
Shahem: home to, it makes a lot of sense. There are some people who are undocumented, like they can't be out here in the streets the same way everyone else can be fine. You're you wi and you're a business healer.
Oh my God. Like that's a perfect way to [00:54:00] contribute, uh, in movement. Like there are so many people who need access to the, the information that you have. Like that's find your, find your place.
Eva: Yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Kyley: And then just like what I, what I'm feeling really loud right now in this conversation in particular, which has been the theme lately, is like, find your place and then fucking lean in. Not to the point of burnout, right? To with balance, but like with your whole chest, you know?
Eva: Mm.
Shahem: Yeah,
Eva: Yeah.
Shahem: agree with that.
Eva: Okay. So Shaheen, what about, are you open to talking a little bit about what this practice has looked like in your own life in terms of in this and like how you meet your own shit and stories and, and whatever, and also as you balance also supporting others, you know?
Shahem: Absolutely. So I, so I have a macro background anyway, like I started out community organizing before I came into being a therapist. I actually didn't want to be a therapist because [00:55:00] I only went to school to get my master's in social work to become a better community organizer. So even though I do micro work with my own private practice and I worked in like, you know, foster care, social service systems and all of that, I still contribute like in the ways that I can.
I work with organizations like in my local area, like I work specifically with this one organization that works with black boys in the community. Um, I work with this one other organization that works with trans people in the community. Um, I use my skills, like I'm a social worker, so sometimes I do group conflict resolutions.
Sometimes I work on panels, uh, for the free, free. Sometimes I do public speakings. It, it just depends on where I'm needed at the moment. But I try to lend myself to be available, especially because I have a platform. A lot of the times, like these organizations need like a boost. Um, but sometimes I crowdfund for people because I have a platform and I have more eyes on me.
So I'll lend [00:56:00] those eyes to other people who are in need. Um, I do what I can with the, the, uh, community that I've cultivated online, um, in my online community. Can I just say shouts out to them because they like really make it easy for me to contribute in other ways because when other people need help, they aren't just worried about me as a person.
These, my community is the type of community that really values helping. Like us all,
Eva: Mm-hmm. Yeah. And, and how do you balance that with, I mean, like the B word? The B word, your joy, and also the do you experience, you know, do you experience the overwhelm and the hopelessness? And, I mean, it sounds like. Yeah, I'll just keep my question there.
Shahem: What I will say is, again, community is the antithesis to a lot of the things we, we face as a society. Yesterday I was on the train back from Boston, like I told you, I was coming back from a mental [00:57:00] health summit at Harvard and I was so overwhelmed because they gave us so much information about like how to improve our platforms to talk more about public health and to like address some of the misinformation and disinformation that's been spread throughout this, uh, throughout this, the internet culture these days.
Um, and I was so overwhelmed. Do you know what I did? I called my best friend, one of my best friends, and he offered like, and he always is super helpful. Like I have a lot, I have a really supportive community of people around me and he offered to sit down with me. I'm like, I will treat you to dinner. Like just so I can like, so we can do this and we can go through the things that I can do and work on together like.
All of the things you see me do, I am never by myself. Like I always have a supportive team of people behind me, and I, I try to be the best community member and supportive behind them as well. It is so much easier when you have other people carrying this stuff with you, which is why I'll always consider myself to be a community sense of clinicians.
Even my [00:58:00] clients work with me. Like my schedule has had to shuffle around so much and my clients are so flexible and patient with me because they understand that I do more than just this because we all should be doing more than just what we, we can, you know, um, so I'm not by myself. It's the simple answer to that.
Eva: Yeah. That's beautiful.
Kyley: Can I just share how much this conversation has been exactly that medicine for me and I, I just, you know. I find a lot that there are just moments where I am just, my body is just processing something. And this morning was one of those where like I laid over here on my office floor with some incense and I was like, I don't even know what we're feeling, but we're, we're feeling a lot of it.
And um, and I know, I know the drill at this point that that's just like part of, part of the work. Um, and, and it's this twofold thing that I've been personally experiencing, which is my grief and anger about what's happening in the world. Um, and at the same [00:59:00] time, this like really big fire in my own work about like, you know, letting the next level of, of things roll out and be shared and this, like this, I'm feeling a lot of like inner freeze around balance of, of that.
Um, and um, anyway, I just can feel how much. I have been trying to microscopically like, pick off fleas one at a time almost. And um, and this conversation I'm just like, oh, it just, it just felt, just, it just like some, some huge weight just got lifted just by being in community and having juicy conversation.
So thank you for like, real time giving me the thing that I didn't know I was looking for.
Shahem: For me, so thank you. Thanks for having me too.
Eva: Mm.
Kyley: Yeah,
Eva: Kyley, did you have any more questions about resistance and,
Kyley: I mean, a million and a half. And also I'm mindful of time and so I wonder if, if this is a, before actually before we transition to Joy, we [01:00:00] always ask the last question is, what's something bringing you joy right now? Um, do you wanna share with our listeners where they can find you, what they should do if they wanna hang out with you more?
Shahem: So, um, you can find me on, uh, TikTok and Instagram threads and YouTube at five H-A-H-E-M, uh, which is shaheem. I just couldn't get the app with the s so I have to put a five in place of an
Eva: Yes, but it works and I highly recommend you follow because it's, I mean, it's like helpful and entertaining, which is my favorite combination.
Shahem: Thank you so much. Um, but yeah, that's pretty much where you can find me. I do have a podcast, but we're on, like, I have two podcasts, but like I'm on a bit of a hiatus, like before I relaunch, but please follow me on social so you can get up to date on that. So yeah, but oh, I have a newsletter. Oh my God.
Eva: Okay.
Shahem: My newsletter is where I share like additional resources.
Uh, like this last newsletter I did was about burnout and how to recover from burnout. [01:01:00] Um, if you are interested in, and it's free, I promise I'm not asking you to pay for it, but I do like to share as many resources as I can. Um, if you follow me on socials and go to the link in my bio, like you can sign up for my newsletter too, but that's just if you want additional mental health like stuff.
Kyley: I mean, who doesn't wanna hang out with you more? This is great. Awesome. Thank you. Thank you, thank you. Well then, uh, let's do our round of joy. Friend. What's bringing you joy right now?
Shahem: Oh my God. It's always gonna be community. I know it's such a core answer, but like I'm just surrounded by such beautiful people. I had a really bad dream last night and almost like best friend telepathy, another one of my best friends, like. Uh, sent me a text message just letting me know that they loved me a whole lot.
I really recommend if anybody is in community and they don't feel like cherished in that community, please like, find community oriented people because that is gonna, that's gonna get you much further in life. But we got on the phone right after that. I'm like, how did you know? I just literally woke up from a bad [01:02:00] dream and we just talk for like a good half an hour.
And you know, like, just the fact that I have people in my life who are so supportive and who are so loving and who appreciate me just as much as I appreciate them, is the thing that keeps me going and that's my why. And I hope everybody else can find their why. But like for me, what brings me joy is my, my community.
Eva: Oh, beautiful. I just wanna give a little plug for Hill Universe episode. I think we called it like, how to make friends as an adult, because I think that's like often a question that people come up against is like, well, how do I find community? Especially as maybe you've outgrown some of the older relationships in your life and so highly recommend that episode.
Kyley: Good poll Eva. Nice thinking. What about you? My love. What's bringing you joy?
Eva: Mine is something a little similar. I actually just came back from a workshop in Montreal where I was in community with some of my peoples, and um, I just, I feel like I'm, I mean, I, I wouldn't be surprised if you both could relate [01:03:00] and many of our listeners, but it's the irony of like, what I love is getting into the messiness of being a human.
Because what, uh, this experience was, was like, there was so much emotional release and it was like. I was exhausted by the end of it. And there were like people crying and yelling and screaming, but it was so real. And I was like, this is what people need. They need to get this shit out of their body. And I just had releases that I didn't even know were coming.
And you know, it can be, it's so good to be in a safe space like that because otherwise I could have stories that like, I look like a weirdo or, you know, like it's, it's really vulnerable. It's really vulnerable to let yourself be seen like that much. And so I'm feeling just a lot of gratitude, but also laughing at myself because that to me is, it's like, it's like painful, but it's fun, you know?
Like I have this joke that I like, I think they call it type B fun. Like, I like things that are difficult and challenging, but they also feel really fulfilling to me. And that's just like [01:04:00] my personality. So that's me. Kyley, what about you? What's something that's bringing you joy?
Kyley: I made homemade bread on Monday. And it was so good. So my husband went into the office and instead of going to my office, um, at listeners, I have an office outside of the home. Instead of doing that, I stayed at home all day, but in the like deliciousness of like, nobody can perceive me, I'm all by myself here.
And, um, and I made bread, which I don't think I've done in like eight years. And it came out so good and it was so easy. And then my kids came home from school and they were like, this is like the bread at restaurants, which
Shahem: Please tell me you have a res, a recipe like I've been. I've never made bread and I've been dying to make
Kyley: Oh my gosh, I will. This is so simple. I will, I will text you a picture of the recipe. It was from the new, it's from the Cooks Illustrated, uh, cookbook, but I will send it to you. It was so simple, like truly, so simple, and it [01:05:00] was delicious. And I had the last slice of it this morning with my breakfast and, and then my daughter was like, you don't even need to buy bread anymore.
And I was like, yeah, I am. I this
Eva: you're still buying bread, but Yeah, but that's like, what's so okay. So I just had to like say, that's no small thing. Like it's so gratifying when you're like, can no not buy bread anymore. I can do this. You know? And also, I've only, I've also never made bread except one time. And the one time I did, I was like, I'm Betty Crocker.
You know, you feel so empowered, like it's amazing. So I'm very,
Kyley: I, for the fall of society, make bread, everybody.
Shahem: That's your role in the revolution.
Eva: Yeah.
Shahem: be the breadmaker. Yeah.
Eva: Yeah,
Kyley: Yes, exactly, exactly. Uh, I have my role. Uh, thank you so much, shaheem this conversation. Like I said, just like really filled my cup and I'm so grateful we got to connect with you today.
Eva: yeah. Taught a total pleasure.
Shahem: you for having me, Kyley. Eva, thank you for having me. This is such a beautiful like space you're cultivating and I'm honored to be invited into [01:06:00] it. So anytime.
Eva: Thank you.