This week, Eva brings a vulnerable and relatable truth to the table: she’s been struggling with the belief that she’s too rigid—too controlling, too particular, too unwilling to let go. Maybe you’ve had that inner voice too: Why can’t I just chill? Why do I care so much? Why can’t I just go with the flow like everyone else? But once we started pulling on that thread, things got interesting. This conversation is part therapy session, part spiritual detective work, and part reclaiming of the fiercely protective parts of ourselves. If you’ve ever been called “too much,” “too intense,” or “too uptight”… this one’s for you.
This week, Eva brings a vulnerable and relatable truth to the table: she’s been struggling with the belief that she’s too rigid—too controlling, too particular, too unwilling to let go. Maybe you’ve had that inner voice too: Why can’t I just chill? Why do I care so much? Why can’t I just go with the flow like everyone else? But once we started pulling on that thread, things got interesting. This conversation is part therapy session, part spiritual detective work, and part reclaiming of the fiercely protective parts of ourselves. If you’ve ever been called “too much,” “too intense,” or “too uptight”… this one’s for you.
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[00:00:00] Hey everyone, welcome back to Hello Universe. Today, Kyley and I wanted to bring to you two topics that both of us struggle with, specifically Kyley feels avoidant of being bossy.
I think you've shared with me a couple times, right, that you are afraid that you might be too bossy. Too assertive, which is something I would love to unpack with you. And I wanna talk about the fact that me, Eva, I struggle with being too fucking rigid. And I think it's more about taking the time to, um, look at these things that we either dislike about [00:01:00] ourselves or are avoidant of 'cause we think they're wrong or too much, and.
I don't know, finding freedom to be exactly as we are, which I think is something that we're all looking for. And that's why I wanna have this conversation for all of us. Like what it something that you are avoiding of, that you judge yourself for, don't think you should be or don't like. And, uh, yeah, let's get free baby.
Uh, and hopefully, hopefully by the end, I feel free to be a bossy bitch
Which I actually,
I think that might be the true desire.
Um,
Yeah. Okay. But before let's do that. You have some awesome stuff going on in your biz that I think you should share with our, our people.
y'all, everything feels on fire in, uh, this like super creatively nourishing way, and I am just loving this part of the process. So I shared last week that I have a new program coming called Money and the Fawn response [00:02:00] that is specific, it's a short program. A lot of the money courses that I do are like six months long because, you know, I didn't do anything small. Uh, but this is only six weeks long, uh, but no less potent for it. And it's specifically looking at our, um, if you come from a people pleasing, codependent, um, perfectionist background, you have particular kind of baggage around your relationship to money. And I wanna help you unpeel it. So, um, come, there should be a link in the show notes, uh, where you can come and sign up. I can't fucking wait.
Awesome. Yep. I think this cl, I mean, all of your money stuff is amazing and you help me with money stuff all the time and being in the fund response and money goes so closely together for so many of us. So I just think this is gonna be really impactful.
Um, yeah, I feel really jazzed because I don't think there's a lot of conversation about this intersection, and I think it has a much bigger impact than a lot of us realize. And, uh, I can't wait. I
[00:03:00] like, really can't wait.
Yeah.
You've really helped point that out for me. Like be, help me become more aware just in just hearing you speak about fawning and all these things, but like, you're right, I don't actually think there's a lot of. Talk on this very important subject. Well look at you being all pioneering and shit.
Go be a bossy bitch
at my thought leadership
Yeah.
Oh my goodness. Okay. Where does, where should we start? Do you
also. This is, this is the payback of, you know, all the, all of the times when I was like, you know, crying and shaking a fist at life, being like, what? Why is this so fucking complicated? And life was like, keep going.
Right? It was like, oh, and I knew, I knew all along, but there was this, um, like. Body of work that was being like born
hmm.
my chest and in my body and in my life, and I feel really fucking jazzed to be able
Wow. That's really, I, that's really huge and I, you know, I love when those things that we feel [00:04:00] like we, they're creeping around in us and we don't exactly know what it is here. And you're like, I know something's coming in. I don't know what it is. And then it comes into fruition. Ah, that's so good. It's so delicious.
yeah,
Cool. All right, girl, where should we start? Actually, can I start? I'm just gonna fucking jump right in. Okay. I wanna start
Be bossy. Go ahead.
I wanna talk about being rigid. So, um, this is something that I think I dislike about myself, which might be different from how you experience Bossiness. I don't think you dislike of this about yourself.
I think it's more like, oh, I feel like I shouldn't be this way, or, you know, you like maybe insecure about it. This idea of being too much or something. For me, I think I, you know, there is this sort of like Capricorn ness about me, you know, people who listen to the podcast, you know, like, I love my schedule.
I love, um, structure, I love strategy, I love logistics, I love organization, you [00:05:00] know, all of these things. And I don't think it has to be a problem, except sometimes it brings me suffering. Actually, a lot of times it brings me suffering to the degree that sometimes I think it verges on obsession. And I think obsession is a really painful thing.
I think there's different levels and, and, um, gradients of obsession. But my obsessive girlies out there and boys like, y you know what I'm talking about? Like, when you get obsessive about something not from a joyful place, not like, you're not like you're so passionate about this project. It's like you cannot fucking let it go.
And it's like really fucking painful.
This is interesting to me too, because I would never in a million years pick the word rigid for you.
Okay. Okay. Thank you. And this is why I think this is a juicy conversation is because, you know, we com we contain multitudes, right? We're all paradoxes. It's like. I find it so odd, and my ex-boyfriend sort of pointed this out too. He was like, [00:06:00] yeah, you know, you're, you're like that, but you're also one of the most free-spirited people that I know.
And so those two things kind of feel like a paradox. And, and I think there, it can be a gift, but maybe because I'm so free spirited also, it's why my rigidity drives me crazy. But what I mean by rigidity is like, I like things to be a certain way, and I think I wanna come to a point where I, I assume you feel the same way about bossiness is where I don't actually feel like I wanna apologize for it anymore.
Like I wanna own it, I don't wanna apologize for it. And I'm trying to under discern like, where is it a problem and where is it not actually a problem? Where am I allowed to be rigid? Like where, yeah. And so, mm-hmm.
I think this taught this, you said this many times that this, that, this piece of you that you feel like you're too rigid and it causes suffering. And it always surprises me because as a friend. My perception of you is like just super able to be like generous and shift and evolve and adapt, right?
Like, you know, we have one thing scheduled and my needs are different, and you're like, cool, you know, [00:07:00] cool. I can go there. So you're in friendship. I don't find you like that word doesn't even, I can't even imagine where it would fit
in the, in the paradigm. But what's interesting, so I suspect, and
Hold on. Sorry. Can I, I'm just gonna pause you right there and just say thank you so much for that reflection. Everybody. Get yourself a friend who sees you clearly, who can give you some, like, who can help you see things maybe that you don't see. Because as you pointed that out, I was like, you're right. I am really flexible there in, in that area.
And so,
and not from a place of self abandoning, like I never feel like you're
like doing the thing of like, oh, whatever you need, friend. But like, it just, I can't even, it just would never be a word that I would pick for you or especially in the space of friendship. And so when, when you talk about this, this thing that you're calling being rigid. Because ultimately I think that might not be the word that's
secret to, to like pull back the curtain. I kind of want at the end to give you a different word for this,
that feels a little more like reclaim, but we'll find out if we get there. But, um, [00:08:00] what you call rigid, it seems like it shows up more around like work or things that involve some level of like logistic or execution.
Is that true?
yes. Can I just give you an
are there other places? Yeah. Gimme give us, give us some
places where
give you an example because this, this is a situation that happened the other day and, and I'm sure there's other areas too, but this one's like recent,
Mm-hmm.
so Oh, yeah. We're gonna make, we're, we're having hamburgers on Monday and, um, we're having like our neighbors over.
And so there's gonna be like a couple, you know, it's gonna be like a, a, a larger group, like a small little dinner party. Um, and you know, that takes a little bit of planning, right? So like, I have an idea of like when I'm gonna go home and there's, so I'm cooking some of it. And then, um. George, our, he's, he's cooking the other half of it.
So we, we we're splitting it up the workload, and I told him, I was like, okay, I left like some stuff for you. I left like the [00:09:00] burger patties for you, for you on the counter and you know, come and come and pick them up and then you do this and I do this. And so I, I had to like all mapped out, right? Because also like we, we have to get dinner done by a certain time so the kids can go to bed and it's like, whatever.
So it's like, it's all planned out in my head. I know exactly how it should go. I know exactly what it should look like. I get back and I realize he had like completely misunderstood me and he wasn't going to, this is like so small guys, whatever. I'm just gonna get into the
It's good. It's good. I think it's helping people get, put their claws
Yes,
in what you're calling rigid.
So the idea is like, he was supposed to take this stuff and go to his place downstairs to prepare it in his kitchen because we have a small kitchen and like. I do not like too many fucking cooks in the kitchen. In fact, I fucking hate it. Like there's rigidity, like there's nothing that drives me more crazy when, than when I'm trying to cook and there's just like a gazillion fucking people around me.
All the shit like, like, you know, conversation. 'cause I'm, I'm, I like have sensory overload, right? Like, like so many people, I don't know about other people, but very sensitive [00:10:00] to sound and I can't, I'm also one of these people who cannot cook and talk at the same time. If you are talking to me, I cannot cook and if I'm cooking, I cannot talk to you.
And so it's just like, I want it to be a really specific way he misunderstood. He thought he wanted, I guess whatever, what hap whatever happened. But he ended up coming over and preparing the burgers with me in the kitchen. And I like didn't say anything. I think I could have been like, Hey, actually no, can you go downstairs and do this?
But I, but he was like, but then he came and then like our neighbors came and then everyone started talking and they were having like such a good time that I kind of felt like I was being the difficult one. It was like this very warm, you know, you know how it is. Everyone always gathers in the kitchen.
The kitchen is where people gather, right? And it's this warm social event where everyone's like, happy and I really wanna just like put my knife down and be like, everybody, get the fuck out. Like, that's what I wanted to say, but I felt like I was being a party pooper. And I was like so overwhelmed and, and, [00:11:00] and just getting like really frustrated and just like, kinda like fuming within.
And then not having the coones to be like, everybody get the fuck outta my kitchen.
This is not rigidity. This is so not rigidity. This is actually you being a fucking asshole to yourself that you know what you want and you don't like that it might inconvenience other people.
Oh no.
You're act. The problem is actually that you're being too flexible. You don't want to be flexible, but the kitchen, you wanted to tell them all to get out of the kitchen. You swallowed that and then held it in your chest, seething with resentment, and then also terrible judgment of your own resentment because you denied yourself the thing you actually fucking wanted.
Okay. Wait, I just like dying. Yeah. Like the obviousness of this and also the cringiness of this. Not in a bad way, like a good [00:12:00] cringe, like, oh my God, you're so right. And also there's still some parts that feel a little fuzzy for me that I wanna work out with you. Wait, ho. Okay.
Sure we did just crack it open, you know, 30 seconds ago. You can
have, you can have a few minutes to unpack more details of it, but this is like, I mean, this is classic ary shit, right? That what you've been doing is like, oh, I need to be more flexible. I need to be more accommodating. I need to care less.
But actually the, and then you're like, it's causing all this suffering, but the suffering is actually existing because you're not letting yourself be a fucking bitch who knows what she wants and just tells people and then let's have, they have to deal with it.
Yeah, it's essentially like in that moment, like, you know, if I were to ask myself what was I, what was I afraid of? It's like if I had said everybody get the fuck outta my kitchen.
Yeah.
which is actually would be a like, you know, 'cause I come from a family of like matriarchs in a way, Asian women in the kitchen, very strong-willed, very like, I give you orders and you fucking do what I tell you to do.
Like, I see [00:13:00] that energy and I think I have that in me. And I also think it's kind of fun and it's, it's fun and funny and there's, there's nothing wrong with it. You don't have to be apologetic about it. But in that moment, what I was afraid of was like everyone was having such a good time. And also there's like, you know, we live in a small space.
There's not really that. Well, that's not true. They fucking go outside, you know, it's fine thing go outside. But like, I guess I started having all these stories, these, this self self-doubt of like, my needs are gonna inconvenience everybody else. Also, a story that I have often is that like I'm being difficult essentially, like everyone else is having a good time.
But I'm so particular that's what it, that I'm so particular, that particular Eva is being difficult and so she like needs to have it her way. And so therefore she's kind of a bummer. And also that like I am, what's the phrase? Like mellowing, everyone's yellow. I don't love that phrase, but you know what I mean.
Like you're fucking, you know, killing my vibe. You're killing the vibe here.
Did you get told when you were a kid that that, like your two particular thing, did that like show up when you were a kid?[00:14:00]
No, that's a weird thing. It's like, I don't know when it started showing up. I don't even think, I think what you're pointing, I think you, I think, I think you've hit the nail on the head. I don't actually think I was too particular. I think what's happening is I. I am just like afraid to ask for my needs and then, and then sort of like gaslighting myself into being like, oh, I'm just being too particular, so I don't, I shouldn't ask for my needs to be met.
It's not like, it's not like what these are needs that I want. It's more like, oh, I'm the problem, you know, I do this all the time. I go, I am the problem. You know, like, let me fix it and like, let me use my spiritual tools and everything to, to be, uh, you'll, Kyley will get this reference. Let me be the tree.
You know what I mean? Like, and when really I should be the bird and, and I'm trying to just be like, zen and solemn and whatever, whatever, adaptable, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah.
Yeah. And um. Again, you're totally self imagining. And then it [00:15:00] snowballs, right? Because also, if you'd clarified the first moment that you realized that he had misunderstood and that what was happening wasn't what you wanted to happen, and you'd said then,
oh, actually I really want to cook alone in my kitchen.
Can you take this downstairs? You, you would have, uh, like you would've had the conversation, maybe he would've been like, oh, actually my kitchen's broke.
He could have put, he could have put what, put forward, whatever his needs
were. But let's imagine you say at that moment, and he's like, oh, cool. Got it. And he leaves.
Then you don't act, you don't even have to face the moment of the whole kitchen is here. Everyone's in the kitchen and everyone's happy, and now I'm being a bitch.
Right? It's like, I, I, I think this happens a lot where we selfa abandon in a small way. 'cause we think, well, this is fine. Like this is
fine. And, and then it's not fine.
And I actually think sometimes this is the universe's way of being like. Do you see what you did there?
And the, and it snowballs and it snowballs, and now all of a sudden you're totally overstimulated. And also it's a [00:16:00] bigger, and you're now, your needs are bigger and now you're
inconveniencing four people.
Yes. It's like, it is very expensive. It's like you think you're actually like. It's a minor little thing, but that minor little thing actually is equivalent to like actually two hours of time or like four hours of time or like, you know, whatever, a thousand watts of energy. Do you know what I mean? And so, okay, okay.
Okay. Here's my question.
Mm-hmm.
This is like, I feel like this is like self-awareness 1 0 1, but you know what? We don't see what we don't see. Okay. So self-awareness 1 0 1 as in like, how do I know I have such the habit of like a belief that I'm actually really particular because I also do think sometimes I'm really particular,
Sorry to jump in, but maybe you're particular.
but that's what I mean, particular and rigid to me are kind of the same thing. Like I group them like they're, they're, they're synonyms to me in my mind, like being [00:17:00] really Okay. That's okay. How about that? That is for sure, like I'm really particular, like I like. Really specific ways. And I actually, that is something that I kinda like about myself because I think I'm really good at curating like a really good space or a really good like, uh, vibe, a really good something.
And I, I'm really good at cozy, I'm really good at comfort, so I want things exactly kind of the way that I want them.
But that verge is on rigidity, as in like, if it's not exactly that way, I get annoyed.
Is it that you get annoyed when it's not exactly that way? Or is it get annoyed when you swallowed your request? Because if you put the request, if you go back in
time and you were in the moment with George and you say, Hey, I need you to go downstairs, and he says, oh, I can't, for whatever reason, I don't think you would then be resentful.
Right? Or if it's getting loud in the kitchen and you say, Hey, it's too loud here, [00:18:00] and they say, oh, actually we can't leave for whatever reason, but you would make
some kind of accommodation, right? I don't actually think it's that you're too particular. I think it's that you are swallowing the request and grinding your
teeth because you're afraid of speaking the disruption. So then the thing that feels like partic then, so then it's like, oh, it feels like if I'm, if I just didn't care so much, if I just wasn't so particular, then I would be fine. But you're actually really good at being flexible and you're really good at working through like how many times in the podcast has it been like, okay, what do you need?
What do I need? Let's figure out the
solution. Like, you're really good at
that.
Mm-hmm.
So the
problem, yeah, the problem isn't that you're particular, I think it's that you're swallowing the request and it
doesn't feel good in your throat.
Hmm. I'm just run this down.
Mm-hmm.[00:19:00]
Okay. Hold
I.
think you know what you want and then you just basically, some part of you is like, you shouldn't want, you shouldn't have this specific, you shouldn't have this exact, this vision's too exacting. Right.
Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.
But why, like, why is the vision wrong?
Mm-hmm.
I'd also hate people talk to me when I cook. I hate it. No one.
Also, I have such bad time management that if you try to talk to me when I, while I'm cooking, we're not eating until 10 o'clock at night, like go away. And the whole time we're talking, I'm thinking about my cousin. I this really, really, really great cousin. She's like in her early sixties, she studied, um, she's a chef.
She was a chef. She who like went lived in France and went to like cooking school in France. She's like this incredible, incredible cook.
Mm-hmm.
And she's so funny. She's like the best laugh in the whole world. And she's so fucking bossy when it comes to the kitchen. And everyone is like, Hannah is cooking like whatever, like just to get a hand meal.
Like no problems. But she's totally like, like I can see so clearly [00:20:00] everybody being in her kitchen and we're all being loud. We're all having a fun time, good time. And she's also having fun. And I can also just see the moment where she's like, all right, everybody get the, get the fuck outta the kitchen.
Get
out right now. You're all being too loud. Get somewhere else. And we would just laugh. Like my whole family would just laugh
yeah. That's what I mean. It's like you can just own it and command the room where it's actually not a problem. But I think there's this weird push and pull going on within me where it's like, I think this is like the danger of fawning. Is that
That's what we're actually talking about
Yeah, we're total. Oh, this is the exact, it's totally fawning and I think that's the danger of fawning is that, okay, let me try and let me try and see if I can articulate this.
I'm gonna take a stab at it. There's actually. This very violent thing happens when we're in the fawning stage. It's like I'm, I'm the victim essentially. And because, and then I repress and then I repress, and then I repress, and then there's like some explosion or some sort of like victimization of like, [00:21:00] you know, where I'm like lashing out other people because people, someone, someone has done me wrong because I feel all this resentment.
And what I mean by violent is like, I think, you know what I mean? Like it's, it's like a subtle energy of violence or even sometimes like, you know, whatever, you're exploding, but, but it's just so not clear. Like it's not clean and it's not clear. And then I can't just own the, get the fuck outta my kitchen thing, which is like, so not personal.
Do you know what I mean? It doesn't make me bad. I'm not wrong. Like I'm not losing love, like blah, blah, blah.
Well, because I also think you're projecting onto other people that they also can't say what they need. So
this is one of the other toxic things we do with the fond response. To use a money example, it's, this is when we un we undercharged 'cause we assume other people can't pay. Right. It's like this whole, and or we offer them less than the full package because [00:22:00] we just assume that they can't pay, but therefore we're actually offering them less in the first place.
It's a whole thing. Anyway,
the point,
wait, wait, wait, wait. Hold on. But before you go, but why do you think the fawning does? Like why? As the fun.
That's what I was gonna that's what I was gonna get to. Yeah. Because your programming, if you have a like strong phone response or if it's getting activated, is like, I take care of others so that I am taken care of. Right.
But you are also assuming that everybody else, especially when you, it's like a codependent background.
You're assuming that everybody else that's like, here's our community commitment is that I will self-sacrifice for you and then you will self-sacrifice for me and then we'll all just self-sacrifice for each other and your sacrifice will take care of me and my sacrifice. And so it's like everyone's just like scooping out their heart and offering it.
It's all just like we're all just feeding off of sacrifice or assuming that that's the logic, or assuming that that's what's required. So you are one afraid to be disruptive because that's the F's always afraid to be disruptive, [00:23:00] but you're also afraid that other people are running on the same program as you
and so they won't push back.
So if you say, Hey, get outta my kitchen, and they don't like it, that they will just swallow it and then you'll have caused harm.
Yeah. Yeah. That's okay. Ding, ding, ding. That's so good. This is just really interesting because I just, as you were like explaining all of that, I just got. An image of like a Portlandia skit where it was like a bunch of women in a kitchen being like, oh, I'm sorry. No, no, I'm sorry. No, I'm sorry. Oh, I'm sorry.
Do you know
Yeah. Yes,
like because you're right. I think I can imagine some people in my life where I was like, get the, where I was like, get the fuck outta my kitchen. They'd be like, okay, whatever you like, grab their cocktail and leap, you know, and have a good time. And then I imagine other people who are like, oh, I'm so sorry.
Like I'm, I was in your way and I didn't know. And they actually do, they're mirroring like the same energy that I have. This sort of like, yeah, the font small over apologetic people pleasing energy [00:24:00] and how the latter, like that other, like when two fawns are together like in a room, it just perpetuates this cycle.
That's like, I think what the, the stereotype anyway of like all overly apologetic women or just like white liberal like
folks, you know what I mean?
yeah,
Whereas the other person who's just clear is like, okay, great. Whatever.
There's another option too, which is that the person turns to you and says, Hey, I really didn't like the way you said that.
Right. yeah.
Or they turn to you and say, I I actually really wanna stay in the kitchen for X, y, and z
reason. And then you just talk about it,
Right.
So it's like the answer could be, oh, sure, no problem.
Bye. Or the answer could be like, small problem, let's talk. But either of those are actually fine. That's the other thing that's funny. I think when you have, like, when the Fawn programming is familiar, but you've done all of this self
work, right? That like if, if you said, if you said, get the fuck outta my kitchen, and someone was like, that really hurt my feelings, you would be fine, right?
You
would, you're [00:25:00] nervous, you wouldn't get all like activated and scared and shame spirally.
You would just talk about it, right.
Um, so
I think in some ways the, this fawn thing isn't, it's like protecting something that doesn't need to be protected anymore.
that's interesting.
Well, I can tell you that, um, while some of that feels true, I can see what still lives in my body is a feeling of,
I, I think you probably know more than most people that I think within the past two years, I don't know if you do know. I feel like it's come a lot that like fawning has come up a lot. Like it's become louder in my life than it ever has before. I think it's always been in there, you know, like, it,
it's only coming out because it,
Yeah.
you know, like it lived inside of me somewhere.
Well that makes sense. Remember when you were first moving to Brazil and I was like, this is gonna, this is all about your chapter of being powerful,
so
Oh [00:26:00] my god, fuck God, damnit. Yeah. And so I think it's all coming up to be released actually. I really like, I I really do believe that. That's true. Yes, exactly. But I. So anyway, Audi like listeners, I'm just sort of, I'm having this reckoning of like, yeah, I, I have noticed that fawning for whatever reason, has been really loud for me these past, this past like year and a half or two years, whatever.
And I could name a couple reasons why, but more so it's that I still have the belief that, but actually me asking for what I want is too much. I don't know. It's too much. It's too much of a pain in the ass. Even, even when my intellectual brain goes, no, it's not,
you know, it's like, so I don't know if we need to unpack all that here.
I think that's just something for me to look at, like, you know, what is it that I'm believing?
can I speak to that
a little bit? So if you think about it, the Fawn response, which [00:27:00] is like, you know, we have fight, flight, freeze, or Fawn. Um, her story is that I am safe when I take care of everybody else. On some level, she's not comfortable having her needs met. Like having her needs met is actually fundamentally an unsafe thing,
Uh,
right?
Because then she's in the center, she's getting right, you, it's, it's this, it's this really complex thing where you're trying to get taken care of through self abandonment. So if you get 80% of care, it's actually more soothing than if you get a hundred percent of
Mm-hmm.
right? Because a hundred percent of care means you're in the center and then you're not, then you're not safe.
Hmm.
so the, the, like, the, the [00:28:00] core story here is basically like the very human thing we're reaching out to like get our needs met while also actively wanting anything but our needs being fully met.
Or I think I'm, I'm trying. Well, yeah. Uh, yes. I think that's true. And also there's another version where it's like I am, uh, confused about how I get my knees met. I want to get my knees met, but I'm think, but I'm trying to get them met in the wrong way, which is like, people pleasing actually feels like getting my needs met.
Like I think that's actually
need, you know what I mean? Like filling my cup.
Yeah. It's like when you're really hungry and then you just like eat like junk food, you
know? It's like
It's like I'm confused about like what it is that is actually gonna meet my need. It's like exactly like I'm going for chocolate, but I actually don't need chocolate right now. What I really need is like, I don't know, some fucking character. Yeah, a steak.
steak and broccoli.
Yeah, Exactly.
Yeah. Yeah. Um,
Okay, wait, so then, hmm. You look, you have a thought. Did you wanna continue with that?
go ahead. [00:29:00] You go.
Okay, so I'm not comfortable getting my needs mixed. That means like I'm, you know, if I'm, I'm in the center. And what does being in the center mean to the fun, do you think?
Danger.
Meaning being seen? Is that what you mean?
I mean, it can be about being you. You could go there. But I think specifically when I'm talking about the center, I mean like you are the one, your needs are in the center, right? So if your needs are in the center, you're not being a good fawn
and you need, but you basically, but your, the fawn part of us needs to decenter their needs in order to feel safe. So when you or needs are in the center, it's inherently activating.
Hmm.
It's like my needs are being met that doesn't feel safe. There's a deeper why. Like why, and maybe this is individual to each person, but like, because my job is to fawn. Yeah. But why I'm afraid of something that's gonna happen. Like if I get my needs met, it means what? I'm trying to figure that out.
I'm like actually having a full, like [00:30:00] a real time moment. It just like, I feel like I'm touching into something. Like if I get my needs met, it means it's like I'm being too much. That's how I experience it. Like, and therefore if I'm being too much, I'm like not safe because I'm not lovable.
Like it's too much like I am, like I am in danger because I think everything that I'm afraid of is being kicked out of love.
So you are, you are experiencing, there's like a fear under the fear about being too much, and maybe this is being too pedantic, but I think that's still kind of just a symptom of this
thing. Yes. You think they're too much, and so then this rigidity shows up and then you're thinking, okay, I need to be more flexible. That's the answer here. But I think going forward when rigid shows up, it's actually telling you that you're being too flexible, right?
Like rigid is actually the indication that you're self abandoning, and the answer is to speak the thing that you're grinding your teeth over.
Yeah.
It's like to ask for more when [00:31:00] you're afraid that you're being too much or you're being too rigid. It's to like ask for more is the antidote.
I think you're absolutely right. And of course, anytime we have to do something that is like a challenge, I can feel the, the going, the just like collective, like not collective, this inner like, uh, like basically it's gonna feel uncomfortable, but at the same time, I'm kind of like, maybe I kind of get a sense it's gonna be one of those things that like, actually I'm gonna do, just do it and realize like it, I'm, I'm, I'm sort of pushing the limit, you know, like what I actually think is safe and not safe, or is appropriate or not appropriate.
And I wouldn't be surprised if I found out actually that like, oh, all these things I was worried about weren't actually that big of a deal. That's been like a big theme of mine recently being like, oh my God, these, I'm worried about all these things and then they happen, or, or I ask for them or whatever.
And it's like, no one even cares. You know what I mean?
And I think
I, I. I think it could be that, but shit, sorry, go ahead.
I was gonna say, [00:32:00] I think that's true. And I think what happens when we do, the thing that feels scary in this moment, especially when you have clarity around it, is then you're gonna build nervous system capacity
that's like, oh, it actually is fine to say this. See? And then you're just giving yourself the muscle memory that it's fine and safe and acceptable.
And then the thing that will have previously been hard will not be, it'll feel uncomfortable. Like, I don't know, the first four times you do it, you know.
I think you're absolutely right about the nervous system piece, but there are still two things that are I'm chewing on,
I think maybe I'm acting ahead of my evolution because what I was gonna say is I would like to be able to ask for what I want, you know, like make these requests based on my so-called particular particularness without the, from like a clear place like, I don't know how else to say it. My meaning articulated it clearly, but also energetically clear rather
trying to be good. You're still trying to be good. It's still the fun.
No, because [00:33:00] at, maybe, maybe, I don't know if I'd call it good, but it's more like I don't want to, um, what I don't like is when I speak to people rudely and I dunno, is that me trying to be good?
Yeah. Or, or, hey, what if it's not even about being rude? It's like, 'cause I
basically wanna, sorry,
I think there
to not be disruptive.
Um, it's not that, it's that I wanna feel energetically clean within myself, like, meaning, I don't wanna be apologetic about it either. So I don't know if that's a version of being good as well, but do you know what I mean?
It's like, what I'm trying to say is I don't wanna be in the past when I've asked for what I've needed, it's come from and it's, and when it's been a challenge for me sometimes when it comes at as the vibe is, oh, I'm so sorry, overly apologetic, which I do not like, you know what I mean? I feel like that's a self-sacrificing type of thing.
But then there's also the overcompensation because I don't [00:34:00] like that I'm being, you know, how we swing from like one side to the other. So, because I don't like being AP apologetic, I overcompensate and it actually comes out, like, I don't say snarky, but you can tell it's like it's not embodied. It's like a forced and almost maybe even, um, false confidence.
Like it's just not honest.
It is a little, it's like a little reactionary is what I'm
Yes. Reactionary, but also there's just like a ickiness to it. Like it doesn't feel good.
yeah. You're like, you're like putting on, you're putting on the costume of someone who knows how to say, get the fuck out of the kitchen,
exactly. And it, and it, it doesn't feel authentic, you know? It would even feel more authentic in that moment if I was just like, oh, you know what? This is really uncomfortable for me. But like, can I, I have to ask you guys, you know, like, that would be more honest. And I'm okay with being honest. Like, I just wanna be honest, I think in my request, and so as I'm like, tr continuing, like trying these things on, I don't, that's a question that I have, you know, like, it would really feel nice to be honest, and [00:35:00] maybe I do it a couple times where it is really messy, you know?
And it is, and it's just gonna have to be un, you know, it's not about being uncomfortable, but I just want it to be honest, where maybe I won't be honest the first couple times and I'll just have to learn from my mistakes and keep going. But, but I would like it to feel that way. And I'm curious if you have any
I think there's two things happening. One is this like really genuine desire to not have suffering around this issue,
right? It's like you, when you start speaking about how you want it to feel energetically clean, it's because you know that it's possible to land in a place where you're of sovereignty around this issue and you would like to experience that. And that is true that, and that feels like a, like a generous desire. And at the same time, I think there's a little bit of that sneaky thing where your spiritual practices come in the back door to kind of kick you in the ass where the expectation is like, okay, well now I see this, so I gotta like get it in order.
Like I gotta get it in order, I gotta do it right?[00:36:00]
I gotta, you know, be honest. Like maybe you have to give yourself permission to
Try it on. Just try it.
Yeah. And be quote unquote dishonest. Because even as you're saying that, I'm like, is that true? Because some part of you feels that, that that performative thing
is also a kind of truth because some part of you is feeling like she has to perform, you know,
to get boundaries. And she's not, she's not wrong.
That makes sense. I'm getting a little like stretchy there, but. Um, it feels like an unkindness to say that you're being, even as paradoxically, I know exactly what you're speaking to, that there is a kind of like, not lack of sovereignty and also it feels like a, like an unkindness,
um, to yourself that you're not allowed to or
Mm-hmm.
have it be weird and messy and uncomfortable.[00:37:00]
Yeah. Mm. Well, all I can say is I'm just gonna try it out and report back,
Yeah,
because I don't know, there might be times where it isn't like. It does feel icky, but not icky in a good way. I think it's feeling bad in a good way and feeling bad in a bad way. Do you know what I mean?
Yeah,
Sometimes it feels bad in a good way.
'cause it means I'm challenging myself and I'm, you know,
Yes.
doing new reprogramming neuropathways, and then there's bad in the bad way where it's like, wait, actually no, that felt really gross.
And when it's quote unquote bad in a bad way, you're getting helpful information,
Exactly
right. Like if you overextend or if you get snippy, or if you don't, if you say words and they feel gross in your chest, that's giving you useful a data. It's like helping you refine the place that you
and recalibrate the place you actually wanna stand.[00:38:00]
And so I, as you're talking with, I'm just keep thinking about like. Practice, like, you know, like, my kids are learning to ride a bike. Or like you're trying to learn a new, like, you know, my son's trying to learn a pull up bar, right? It's like you, when when you, like, when you're doing something physical and you're like exactly nailing the pose, you, there is that feeling of like, Ooh, this is what it's supposed to feel like.
But until you have that moment of like, Ooh, yeah, this is, I'm really flying now, there's a whole bunch of times where you're like, I think I'm doing it. This feels weird. Why does it feel
weird? And all of that is, that's the refinement
yeah. That's the learning process. Yeah, that's kind of, yeah, what I meant earlier we're like, I think I just gotta go out and fucking do the damn thing and test it out and then I'll report back and see what I learned and I'll let, I'll share any, uh, I'll feel helpful insights if there are any. Um, one more thing that I wanted to ask is, and this is, this goes going back to where we kind of were earlier in the conversation.
I don't know if we'll get to answer this question, but you were making the point of like, when we are in the fawn [00:39:00] mode, it's dangerous to actually get our needs met because then we're like in the center and I think. I kept kind of coming back to that, but like being like, no, but I think, I feel like there's more, like why, why does it feel dangerous to get my needs met?
And I think it's because, and I think this is what you were trying to get at, and you can correct me if I'm wrong, but this idea of like, it's because I'm confused about where I get my safety from. Like, I think I get my safety from not being seen or being, being small, whatever the fun is, people pleasing, like that to
other people being happy. Yeah.
And then the moment, uh, I get my needs met and maybe other people aren't happy and I'm sipping on some toes and taking up space or whatever, like that's actually exactly the thing that I want. That's the, that's like the, the steak. You know, like I'm, that's, that's the, that's a substantial me that I, that I, that meal that my body needs.
But I'm like, wait, but that I'm [00:40:00] confused because I'm feeling like, wait, that doesn't feel safe. That's not where my safety comes from. And I'm like. I think it's a wires crossed situation, you know what I mean? It's a, and so it's a wires crossed situation, and it is also just like a habit building thing of like understanding what my nourishment is gonna come from, getting my needs met, not from this other thing that I was confused about where, where I think my needs are coming from, not getting my, my safety is coming from not getting my knees, Ben.
Yeah. Well, and we were talking about this a bunch in villain era just last week. This like building resilience around disappointing people
Yeah. Mm-hmm.
yeah, yeah, yeah. Like practicing. I had a moment where I had like Overschedule, I've overbooked. I agreed to go to a baby shower on the same weekend that I will be in a different state. And, um, and I was really late to RSVP to the baby shower in the first
place. And so I was [00:41:00] experiencing like a lot of shame because this is the, this is the place where I still carry a fair amount of shame is like when my A DHD executive function self, like fucks up a schedule.
So I, or just fucks up like I took too long to RSVP, so that's executive function shame.
And then I screwed up the calendar and I couldn't, couldn't, I couldn't and, and there was no possible, I wouldn't even be in the same state. So it's not no possible way for me to make it work. Um, and I, so I was like, you know, walking myself and watching some of the shamer on that and what was the thing that I did to basically gear up to send the text to be like, oh, I screwed up and I'm not coming to this baby shower. Was, I just kept telling myself, it's like you, you're, you're allowed to disappoint people, like everyone involved in this might be disappointed. I think they're actually fine, but everyone in this might be disappointed and it's okay. Like it's okay for them to be disappointed.
Um,
Yeah, it's, yeah, it's somewhere to like being, building resistance or resilience around not being liked.
[00:42:00] yeah. Yeah, yeah. Yeah. So here's my question for you. Do you feel like you can retire this idea that you're rigid? Like, does
that still feel like a true label? I.
mm.
I
I didn't, it's so interesting, right? Because that was the original goal of this, you know, like to look at rigidity and seeing that it wasn't rigidity after all. I think I'm actually probably a lot further along than I thought that I would be, because it's actually something like much deeper. But I would say maybe like I'm open 85% open to having that, like be let go.
But there's still the, the other leftover part is seeing where I'm rigid around. [00:43:00] I don't know. I can't, some just like OCD type behaviors that I have, which I wanna be cognizant of. Like, you know, I don't, it's not, you know, diagnosed OCD by any means, but, but there are some things where I just, I drive myself nuts.
Like it has nothing to do with other people, right? Where there's like, it feels like, it doesn't even feel, feel like people pleasing is involved, you know? It could be like writing a piece of copy, and I think a lot of writers maybe can relate to this, but it doesn't make it normal to me. Like, it's, it's like I will spend an, an insane amount of like life force energy correcting and re correcting something.
And, you know, that there's, and there's other stuff underneath that too. You know, it's like, probably not rigidity, maybe it's, uh, perfectionism, right? Because I'm trying to protect myself from shame or not being liked or whatever. So maybe what I'm seeing is that it's not rigidity, it's [00:44:00] something else.
Yeah. Yeah. That word just doesn't feel true.
Mm.
And when that, and in that instance what you're talking about, um, I mean, it feels like maybe, maybe being grasping for control,
Mm-hmm.
um, but. I wonder, it's funny that I just gave an anecdote about a DH adhd, but you're talking about what feels like this, kind of like controlling like more obsessive tendencies around certain things. And I feel like I'm gonna, this feels like a page right outta your book, but maybe the first layer is like to let it be
to not, there's the, there's the second arrow that's happening, right? It's like there is some suffering, there is some like contraction control around certain kinds of projects or tasks or creative endeavors. But then you're judging yourself for that controlling tendency and that, that, that feels like the second arrow that's [00:45:00] a more readily available to take off and might actually be a big bulk of what the real suffering is. Like my story about the A DHD thing, right? Like I think that it's my confused relationship to time and memory that's causes the problem. It's actually only my judgment of them, right? Like if I'm totally neutral, if
I can get to a place where I'm totally neutral and really just accept, yeah, I have a brain that's gonna forget things and people in my life are going to have, are gonna be impacted by that. I am going to inconvenience the people that I love because I will forget or be late or over schedule or drop the ball. And if I can be in a place of total neutrality about
that, then that's not a, like, I think that has to go away. But actually it's just the judgment of that that has to go away.
Totally.
And it isn't, he doesn't actually even not need to have suffering. And that, I mean, I come in and out of that
obviously, [00:46:00] because, um, um, uh, but that's what I'm thinking of as you're talking about this is like, there are some places where you, you, you have a, like more of your controlling tendencies come out and maybe you don't like that, but maybe if you didn't judge it, it would immediately be 80% less
Totally to one hundo per one. Hundo. P as my friend Susan would say, like, yeah. Yeah. I think for sure there's something there, uh, which I think is probably helpful advice for a lot of things, you know, like where we criticize ourselves, basically. Kind of like yeah. Experimenting with, at least in this now moment, like letting myself be exactly as I am without.
I mean, I could say a lot more about that, but that's really helpful. And I do actually have to say, what's so helpful about this conversation particularly is like what I'm calling rigidity under. You know, when you peel away the layers, it's, [00:47:00] it's complete something else completely. It's about, totally about something else, and I just wonder if there are other people who can relate, who are like, oh, I think I have this thing that I don't like about myself that causes me suffering.
But if you're like, yeah, peel away the layers and really dig deeper, you're like, oh, it's not even about that. It's about this other thing. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah.
And I also wanna offer, as somebody who is like a really good friend of yours and also has been doing a creative project with you for five
years, I'm really fucking grateful for your high standards. And I wouldn't, I mean, I've said before, privately and on the show how much I appreciate like the organizational part of your brain and especially 'cause that comes, that doesn't come naturally from me. But separate than that, I just like working with someone who has high standards. You know, like I
think we both we're in different ways, but I think we both come to the show with like a vision and a [00:48:00] strong desire to be in integrity with that vision.
And we have a lot of behind the scenes conversations about like
show direction and
guests and, um, this thing that you call rigid that I think is that you have strong preferences.
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
I really love and cherish, and I wouldn't wanna do a creative project with someone who didn't have strong preferences, even when it's times where we don't have the same preferences,
right. Because then there's something rich that happens as we kind of like sift through it and figure out what the,
what the like best spot to land is.
But Yeah.
I I, that in my experience is a feature, not a bug.
Yeah. Oh, thank you so much. Yeah. How I receive that, which I think is helpful, is like these things that maybe we think are, I, I think this can apply to a lot of things. My problem are actually an asset, you know? And also I think it's also about [00:49:00] like, you know, you're with the right people when like your traits work well, you know,
And the number of times that you have like pulled us in for a conversation about. A million different things that have, that have to do with like, these are my standards and are we meeting them or we're not, or whatever. Those have always been conversations that strengthen our friendship
and our podcast. So if you didn't do that
right, then actually we would all be worse off for it.
Ah, I received that. Oh, thank you Kyley.
Yeah.
I love you so much.
Okay. We still have to talk about my bossy self
For sure.
I have to go get on a plane. So we are gonna record that as a second episode maybe next week, where we can talk about [00:50:00] my fear of being a bitch and saying the truth and making people not like me.
Ooh. Yeah, I think well very relatable for probably a lot of women as well. I think I'm also gonna benefit this from this conversation 'cause I maybe have a little bit of that, but mostly what I can't wait to do is like two, and I've said this to you offline before, is that like, I love it when you tell it how it is.
Like it is so sexy to me. Not only is it sexy, but it's like so helpful, you know? And so I'm excited about you really owning that more because I think that is just gonna be a gift for everyone around you. And if they don't like it, they can fuck off.
Yes. Thank you.
Some part of me believes that to be true, and some other part of me is like, but can we just be like, like a, like a minor bitch, you
know?
Right. Right, right, Anyway, there's so much to unpack there because yeah. So much more to say. Um, thank you so much for walking me through that, Kyley. That was [00:51:00] actually so helpful. And I do wanna report back and see. I feel like I have an internal assignment, so listeners, hopefully I'll come back and report on how it goes.
All right. And now tell us your joy.
Joy? Yes. Okay. So what's bringing me joy? Oh, you know, what is bringing me joy? Um, at the moment it is like the experience of taking care of my health, which feels good. Um, listeners may know I've struggled with chronic fatigue for like a really long time, and you know, it's an on again off again thing.
I have PMDD, which is like, you know, stuff with my, with my cycle. I go through periods of being like, okay, like acceptance and this is how my body is and just, you know, working with what I, what's there. And I think that can be really helpful. 'cause there've been moments, phases in my life where I try to fix myself to death.
Um, but now I'm coming more into a place where different modalities are just like [00:52:00] offering themselves up to me. And uh, like all different kinds. I've tried so many fucking things. I've tried a lot of alternative medicines. But anyway, I recently found this new holistic doctor here in Brazil who speaks English, which is awesome.
And she's like supposed to be really fucking amazing and she used to live in California, so it's awesome that she speaks English. And um, I got all this blood work done. My friend Cina here who, oh, I want her on the podcast so bad as she's gonna come join us. She is. You are going to love her. She is a true Brazilian witch.
She is an amazing healer. And just. Is a magical human being, but she makes me what she calls Queen Bee, which is like, uh, do you know what Royal jelly is? Okay, so, so Royal Jelly is the one, so she, so in an ayahuasca ceremony she saw the bees and she said that she was adopted by the bees and she's like a bee woman, and she like, loves bees and, and has sort of opened me up to the magic of bees, which I think, you know, like all species, if you really look into it, they're fucking magical.
Anyway, [00:53:00] she makes me this thing queen, uh, what's it called? Uh, Royal jelly is like, it's the specific food that, okay, all bees are born basically the same or they're all the same. But how you become the queen bee of the hive is that you eat this. This particular type of food called Royal Jelly, and the more of it you eat, like that's how you become the queen bee and you become bigger and you become, you know, you have all these other powers as the, as the queen bee.
And so it's basically, there's something in this royal jelly that is, you know, extra nutritious that is a, allows the bee to transform from like a normal bee to like the queen bee. And so she harvests this and she like, you know, she, for, she had her own bees at her home for a long time. And anyway, all of that's supposed to help me with my health and I'm just trying all the things and it feels good to be proactive without being like, um, desperate [00:54:00] and clingy.
Yeah. I'm trying a bunch of other new things and
I love proactive without feeling like powerful. I mean, I hear you speaking to like you feel
Mm, yes. Yeah, yeah,
Yeah.
I love that. I love that. Yeah,
feel nice. And also I'm just in a place of Brazil where like people here are into all sorts of weird shit. And so like, there's just, I don't know, I thought I was gonna come here to the jungle and it would be like, again, there is a small town close to us, very close to us, you know?
So it's not like I'm so remote, but I was like, I don't know, I'm just gonna like be cut off. But actually there's just a wealth of, um, o like options here and people doing really fucking cool shit with like plant medicine and I'm really getting out into the world of alternative medicine, I guess you could say.
Love this. I love this.
yeah, like if I thought I was weird before, it's getting even weirder.[00:55:00]
Okay. What about you Kyley? What's bringing you joy?
If you could edit that out. I just take a long pause because I feel like there's so many things to choose from and I really, really, really love that. You know, I shared the other week about like, pleasure and, you know, as a result, I have all of these things to choose from. The one I will speak to is I've gotten deliciously into audio books and one of my best friends, they love audiobook and have for years, and they've al they've been trying to get me to listen to PO audiobooks forever. And, um, I just never clicked and I, I don't know, it just clicked. And so two nights this week I stayed up like stupidly late knitting.
Uhhuh
Drinking a beer and listening to these just like delicious, lovely audio books
and the whole time being like, you are going to be wrecked tomorrow. And just being like, I, I don't, I don't [00:56:00] even care.
And
like worth it. It's like a choice. You're like, this feels, this is so nice. I'm just, this image, I, this image is just so life affirming to me. Like I, I get that you're doing something you love. Like how good is that, that you get to knit, listen to a book that you love and drink a beer like that sounds amazing.
Yeah, yeah. It's just this like lovely little bundle of delicious things. Um, and, and this morning I was actually not the drinking a beer part obviously, 'cause it was six in the morning, but I was, um, also woke up early and I was knitting and listening to my podcast and my kid, one of my kids came downstairs and was like, wanting to talk to me.
And I was like, fine, fine. I.
That is the problem with audio books or like even a good podcast, I don't know if people ever feel that way about bot, but you get fucking sucked in sometimes and you're just like, I. Just love. I think there can, it can be a thing of real enjoyment, like loved being immersed in this world.
And, and the problem with [00:57:00] audio books, which is also a gift, is that you don't need to be like, you know, stuck.
Like you're, you're not, you don't be reading it, you know what I mean? You could be like around your kitchen doing some dishes or whatever, but then you just get like really sucked into your own world and it is the best and the worst, but mostly the best.
Yeah. It's honestly, I have, it's so, it's so delicious. It is sometimes hard to pull myself out and be like, oh, you have like obligations or whatever, but I,
that's
so fun. I know, it's so
fun.
It's super fun.
So
Oh my, I'm really excited for you. Like, like just getting in, just getting into the world of audio books, girl.
know as someone who's such a huge reader,
it's like kind of, it's, yeah.
Yeah. So.
I wanna see how this, this relationship evolves because as a big reader, um, you know, there's the joy of reading the books themselves, you know, anyway.
But I have to ask, what are you listening to? Anything good I.
I'm living to the listen reading, listening to the cutest story. It's called Sword Cross. I'm, I'm in a whole queer, romantic
I know, which is why I wanna ask because I thought I feel
it's called [00:58:00] Sword Cross, and it's just so cute and charming and, um,
I mean, if you, if you like, if you like, uh, if you, if you like that genre, it's, I
I don't know anything about that genre, which is why I want to check it out. Oh my God. And then we
it's fun. I think you would, I think you would like it. It's, it's, it's, it's, it's, um, yeah, I think it's really cute and charming. I think you'd like it.
Also, the audio, the, the narrator's voice for this one is just like, so delicious and sexy, so that's also really,
Oh, fun. Oh my God. Okay. Yes. I love it. I love being lost in story.
Yeah.
Okay.
Love you.