In this week’s episode, we dig into the paradox at the heart of the spiritual path: how to surrender to life’s unfolding while still staying fiercely committed to your dreams. This conversation was sparked by a listener question that felt so alive for both of us right now: "Hello universe. I keep circling around the same dilemma. How do I balance surrender with my own will and desires? I have clear dreams for my life and business, and I feel called to pursue them, but how do I know when I'm gripping too tightly in control versus when I'm actually being asked to stay committed and persevered despite the obstacles? Sometimes devotion and discipline feel like the opposite of surrender. How do I weave them together? Signed God, take the wheel, but not my dreams."
In this week’s episode, we dig into the paradox at the heart of the spiritual path: how to surrender to life’s unfolding while still staying fiercely committed to your dreams.
This conversation was sparked by a listener question that felt so alive for both of us right now:
"Hello universe. I keep circling around the same dilemma. How do I balance surrender with my own will and desires? I have clear dreams for my life and business, and I feel called to pursue them, but how do I know when I'm gripping too tightly in control versus when I'm actually being asked to stay committed and persevered despite the obstacles? Sometimes devotion and discipline feel like the opposite of surrender. How do I weave them together? Signed God, take the wheel, but not my dreams."
We get real about:
Along the way, you’ll hear stories about our own messy edges with business, health, parenting, and money—and how the practice of surrender meets the daily reality of deadlines, big goals, and longing for stability.
✨ If you’ve ever wondered how to trust life without losing sight of your dreams, this episode is for you.
A Gentle & Fierce Path Forward: A Workbook for Staying Present, Committed and Resourced in Times of Crisis
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Eva
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Kyley: [00:00:00] hi, it's Kyley
Eva: And it's Eva.
Kyley: and we are really excited for today's episode. The question that we got this week is so un rand for us, and I think also very alive for both of us. So I'm gonna just jump right in to today's question. Hello universe. I keep circling around the same dilemma. How do I balance, surrender with my own will and desires? I have clear dreams for my life and business, and I feel called to pursue them, but how do I know when I'm gripping too tightly in control versus when I'm actually being asked to stay committed and persevered despite the obstacles? [00:01:00] Sometimes devotion and discipline feel like the opposite of surrender. How do I weave them together? Signed God, take the wheel, but not my dreams.
Eva: So good. So I'm so happy that this writer shared this question because this is, the reason we chose this one is because I have been really struggling with this recently and it's super alive for me. So this episode might be a bit advice column, but also might be a bit of like Eva and Kyley, you know, figure it out again.
And I Exactly. And I, and I say again because this topic is not new, like anybody on the spiritual path knows that this is a. This is an ongoing, like reoccurring theme. And I think we've explored it woven throughout different episodes. And what I experience is that for me it's a process of like, I remember and then I forget, and then I remember and I forget.
And right now I'm in a season of forgetting because I have some big goals and things in my life. And I feel like the, the, you know, when you reach a season of your life where you're like, [00:02:00] like have goals and things that you really wanna accomplish this story, you can get this confusion between like, going for what I want versus letting go can get a little bit trickier.
Kyley: Can you give us like a tangible example? I think that will be helpful for some people to kinda
Eva: Oh my God, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes. Okay, well. Even in my work, it's like I am so passionate about what, what I do, and I really love what I do and I love this work. And it's like, I feel in some ways convinced that this is like my life's work. You know? Like this is the path and like, and that life put me on this path.
Um, and also often it doesn't work the way that I fucking want it to. And, and I've actually gotten recently some information about like basic different, different opportunities. A lot of different opportunities have [00:03:00] shown themselves to me actually throughout the years and or not throughout the years. I say more recently than the past two years.
And I think, and actually I hadn't even shared this with you yet, Kyley, but I'm gonna share this with you now. I've, it's this, it's, people have been asking me to support them in their businesses.
Kyley: Mm.
Eva: I'm really good at that. Like, like in terms of just like logistical things, and even like the work that I do with Tom, my partner and like retreats.
Like I am the logistical person and I bring people together anyway. And it's been so fun for me and that's been like a source of income for me. And I'm like, but that's not like really what I wanna do, but that's working. And it's like, and it's, and it's like this really easy path and other opportunities have come into me like that, but I'm like, no, but that's taking me away from what I really should be doing.
And so that's a wonderful example of like, I wanna be following my heart and be committed to this thing that I think it's what I want. And also there's some ego there too, [00:04:00] versus what life is showing me as a different possibility. So that's a, that's one example. I have a, a bevy of examples. Another example is like, I want the money that I co, that I ha that is in my life to come through my business.
And I can tell that there's a desire there to be able to like. There's a lot that's in, in, that's a lot mixed up in that in terms of like self-efficacy and self-sufficiency and all these things. And also knowing that like the trade of my work is, you know, being compensated and all these things. And then I have all this money coming from other avenues.
And like, don't get me wrong, I am not mad at that. Very stoked, very grateful. But, but I'm like, there is an ego part of me. Like, no, I want it to come from my fucking business. And so therefore I, you know, I, I like push harder and I want it to come from Yeah. From there. Does that make sense?
Kyley: Yes. Oh my gosh. I have
Eva: I can give you guys a thousand fucking examples
Kyley: Okay. I have so much to say. Okay. First of all, money Coach Kyley has to point out that I see this [00:05:00] a lot where money comes into people's life, but not. Through them or not through the channel that they want.
Um, so like, maybe someone's like, oh, my husband makes a lot of money and like, I have a lot of inheritance, but my business like still doesn't make any money.
That might be one opportunity or one one way that shows up. Or in your instance you're like, money is showing up, but it's not coming through my business. On some level. I think that this is always about our relationship to power. And I had this really, really beautiful meditation the other day where sometimes, like sometimes I hang out and I talk to money and meditation and money was like, I just wanna show up for you.
Like,
I just wanna be a source of love and support. You know, y'all have made me a thing that I am not, uh. But I just wanna show up and take care of you, and I will show up in whatever way is available.
And I got this really beautiful image of money just being like, I'm just gonna come down the path that is like [00:06:00] smoothest or the door that is like the most wide open so that you can experience care. Especially if you've been someone who's kind of like in devotion to like opening energy and calling in abundance. And so what I, one thing that I hear in there is that money's just like, girl, I just wanna take care of you.
Eva: Mm-hmm.
Kyley: Right? Like, I don't want you scared, I just want you to be taken care of. And a little bit of like, we can figure out what comes next around like career and coaching.
But in the meantime money's like, let's have a party. Like
let's have some fun. So that was one thing, which is not exactly an answer to the listener's question, but is one of the things that I just thought of as you were sharing
that.
Eva: And that is really, really helpful. And I don't wanna get too lost in the weeds. I wanna comment and then maybe, we'll, you know, if this gets really juicy, we can record a whole nother episode on it. But, but I can see, even as you're saying that, that there's truth in that. Like I can really feel that in my bones, because I also had that relationship with money where she's just like, girl, I got your back.
You know? And. [00:07:00] Then I think it's the practice of receiving, because there's a, that's where the ego comes in and I'm like, no, but that's not deserved. And then this, but this path is deserved because if I make it doing, like selling this thing that I've created from my heart and soul, that's like more worthy and valuable.
Kyley: Oh, that's interesting.
Eva: I mean, I think I've known, but this is helpful for me just to say out loud that's, that's something for me to like investigate and really look at and see if that's
Kyley: Yeah.
Eva: me, you know?
Kyley: When you know this, right? But whenever we're attached to something, we also have more resistance in it, right? So if like money that comes through your business means something about your value,
about your worth, about how good you are, about good, your work is about how on your path you are, whatever story it is, however, whatever we're making that mean, and whatever our attachment is to that story,
all that is just resistance.
So, right? If money's like, girlfriend, I'm, I'm here, I got your back, and money through your business is wrapped up in some stories and meaning [00:08:00] and like, you know, proving of something energy, then money's like, don't worry about it. We'll, we'll get there, but in the meantime, have all this other work and have all these other opportunities to experience that you're competent and powerful and take good care of people and get to have abundance and wealth. And it gets to be easy and it gets to be fun.
Um, and so I think. I'm interested in this idea that the question asker is asking about devotion versus surrender. And maybe we should take a minute to kind of unpack how we're interpreting that. But I think one way that these can feel confusing or at odds is that surrender sometimes feels like giving up
when actually it's about letting go of the attachment that causes resistance. I do wanna actually, 'cause I think you, the, the devotion discipline and the surrender means something to us.
But I wanna like confirm with listeners
so we're all kind of on the same that, do you know what I mean? Do you wanna
like, rewind and just [00:09:00] unpack what we think? Does that feel true? Does that feel like a useful.
Eva: Well, do you just wanna, do you mean like just taking a minute to, just to explain what we mean by devo? Like devotion and commitment? Is that what you're saying? Because,
Kyley: Good.
Eva: is that what you mean? Just
Kyley: And I think that's what I mean. I think that's what I, I think what I'm feeling is that we started to answer
it and that we're like going down a path,
but the path is a little bit off the original question
Eva: and that's actually so helpful, Kyley. Thank you so much. And a really interesting side inquisition and I feel like we could, I'm gonna have to spend some time thinking about that 'cause I thought that was so rich.
And I want to come back to, yeah, the original question and the question. Um, you know, going back to my first example of like, I really wanna be committed and devoted to my business and I want this thing to fucking work, and then I have other things that come into my life that are showing me, maybe there's another way and I'm confused.
Kyley: Yeah. Well, and I just wanna offer, offer. I also deeply relate to this because the number of times that I will be like, [00:10:00] okay, wait, what I really need to do is like, carve out time and to commit to my work. And then birdie comes like running in and wants to climb in my lap, and I have this moment of like, well, what is, what's the thing to do here?
Right? Is it to close my laptop because I work for myself so I can always snuggle on my kid or. Is it to say like, okay, kiddo, mom's boundary is that she's working now,
and like that, that those moments of like, what, what is that kind of the, the thing to do almost?
But you said something really interesting, which I think is a tell which you use the phrase should be doing
and you were talking about working on your business or like quote unquote making it work as a thing that you should be doing.
And I think should is always a tell that we are forcing.
Eva: Mm-hmm.
Kyley: Um, or that we have some story running under the surface. Um, and I think what makes this question really rich and tricky is that the actions themselves are [00:11:00] always fucking neutral, right? Like you can post on social media because it's fun. You can post on social media because it's a box that you check in your business, or you can do it because you think you should be doing it, and like the action is neutral.
It's like some, on some aspect, it's all about kind of like what we're charging it with. Um. The reason for listeners that I think should is a really important tell is because I think should is always language that's indicating some external authority has the answer, right? Like, I should be working out every day if I really were somebody who wants to honor her body or whatever, but like, I should be working on my business.
Is this like, it's always rooted in judgment and criticism on some level, but it also disconnects us from desire.
Like, well, do you want to
be someone who works out? Do you want to be sharing your words on social media or is it just out of obligation?
Um,
Eva: Yeah. [00:12:00] Mm-hmm. Yeah, and I think even you naming that is bringing to light how often. I conflate my wants and my shoulds because I actually think it comes from a want. You know? There's a true desire there, but then the actions all become shoulds because I'm like, okay, so then I post every day, and then I write this email, and then I create this program and whatever.
I promote this thing. Those, I will be honest right now, a lot of those feel like shoulds because I want this, this,
other outcome, and so this is all related because I think this is like when, this is why we get confused between commitment and surrender.
Kyley: Yeah. So can I ask you a question? What does, we've talked about these terms so many times on the show, but I think it'll be helpful in this conversation, like what does surrender mean to you
and what does, like [00:13:00] we're using commitment, discipline, devotion, all of these words kind of almost synonymously.
So what does surrender look and feel like for you, and what does like discipline, devotion, commitment, look and feel like to you?
Eva: Commitment and devotion. I think it's really quite simple. I mean, I, maybe you can help me tease this apart, but I think it's about like really listening to my heart, checking in with myself, really connecting with like this pure, authentic desire. And then it, it, it could be an action or like a way of being, but something that is, and, you know, living my day and my life in a way that is connected to that desire.
So it could be like a task that I follow through on. It could be a way that I, uh, like a mindset that I'm gonna try and practice, which is like, you know, love or belief or something. But there's something about consistency like this, this, like, it's that commitment. I don't know, I can't [00:14:00] find another word for commitment, but what, you know, what does commitment mean?
It means like a, a, a almost like a, an honorable promise that you. Keep to yourself? Not from a way, not like from a stickler, perfectionist point, but like, I am committed to staying true to this desire and this thing that I am like, um, claiming
Kyley: Mm-hmm.
Eva: imp, you know, like touching into this thing that's really important to me.
And seeing that through for as long as it feels relevant until maybe the winds change. And that's why it gets really tricky too, is like sometimes these things change, you know?
Um
Kyley: Well, and to like play with that a little bit more too. When I think about commitment, you know, unsurprisingly, I think of my marriage and Nick and I have been together for over 20 years and like part of that commitment is that we are like committed to being in loving [00:15:00] relationship when it's fun and easy.
When it's hard when like right, there's a like, you know, just this past weekend we were like, oh, we have been like so busy. We haven't actually had a ton of time to be connected to each other. And so part of commitment looked like kiddos having sleeper with our grandparents and us really intentionally having a date night.
Like sometimes commitment is like, you know, being annoyed at each other and like choosing love anyway. So there's something about commitment that I'm hearing in your description of like devotion, um, that's about choosing something even when it's hard.
Eva: Yes. Yeah, I would, I, I, I, I love that. And I would even say it's about, in terms of like how I see this playing out in my day is like choosing it over other things. So let's just say, let's say I'm like, okay, going back to this of whatever, being, wanting to honor my body and wanting to like exercise or something for strength.
And it's about choosing that [00:16:00] over the comfort of something else, even when it feels hard.
Kyley: Yeah.
Eva: Like making a, a day by day intention, intentionality. That's another really good word, I think, for all of this. Yeah.
Kyley: Mm-hmm. And I think, um, choosing it over other things, which is also, I think you could also speak to like prioritizing,
right? Like, if you are really gonna be devoted to this, then you gotta pick it. You, it's
gotta be a priority because, um. Otherwise it just stays
on the sideline. And I think this is really interesting when we think about creative work and like our businesses for example, because they are, they are such creative portals and also, and there's also so much that we could be doing in them at any given time.
And so knowing like what it is that we, like, what are we devoted to, even in our business, right? Like making [00:17:00] it work, having it, what does that mean? Does that mean, so for example, if we like get, we bring the scope in small to business. We're thinking about what are you devoted to in your business? Is it making a certain amount of money?
Is that your devotion? That's totally a valid devotion.
Right? and and then you might make certain choices about like, you know what my devotion is that this is the year that I'm gonna make $150,000. And so I'm gonna show up every day and do certain things because my, my, like the thing, my like true desire is to watch this like make bank, right?
But also another person's devotion could be like, I am really devoted to my business being something that I just like love showing up to. That just feels like really easy and really fun and makes $150,000, right? Like the, the, the money surprise, surprise does not actually have to be about like hustle, but, but like those are, neither one of those is a good or bad energy.
And I have very much been in either one of those at different moments, but there is a different [00:18:00] kind of. I would actually say this fall, personally, I have been in the devotion a little bit more of like, I'm gonna make bank.
That has really been like the, the energy is like, okay, you know what? We've got all these pieces, we've got all this shit, like, let's like.
Eva: That could be so healing.
Kyley: And, and like, really fun. Like
let's make a ton of money. Um, and like take all that we know about letting it be easy and fun. And it has meant that there are some days where I'm like, oh, I feel uncomfortable in my body. I would rather avoid, like, I would rather be in hiding. I'd rather not make a post. I'd now rather not say something.
And then because I've committed to, no, I really wanna have a big revenue fall, then my devotion is to like, sit with the discomfort and find the way, like
show up anyway. Right? But there's been other phases where my goal in my business was to be like, I just want, I like my, my devotion was that this is a soft place for me to
be and I get to experience money [00:19:00] coming in this like soft, relaxed, easy way.
And, and they're just different energies and they're just different devotions. And I'm belabor, I'm kind of going on and on about this because I think sometimes. We pick a goal, but we're not always totally clear on what it is that we're even trying to like make work,
Eva: Mm, mm-hmm.
Kyley: right? And so then we get confused 'cause we're like, well, what do I choose?
What am I devoted to? Well, it depends on what it is that you are most want. Does that
make sense what I'm
saying?
Eva: [00:20:00] [00:21:00] Yeah. 100, 100%. It's like also the h the the how or what you're trying to embody in the, in the goal, in the goal getting right. Because like you said, it could be about money, but that can come from a lot of different things. So, or you can be doing that in a lot of different ways and like, what is it that you really, truly desire?
How do you truly wanna experience the getting of money? And how do you wanna feel like in your body and what feels true to your values? You know what I mean? Like, and so I think this is a, I I wanna like make a bullet point here. If we were, if we were to make bullet points of like, okay, so what do we do here?
I think one of them is like. [00:22:00] This is something that we can contin, continuously tweak, but really get clear on what is the true essence and the true desire of what you're looking for. And getting clear on that. 'cause even as I'm saying this, I can see that I, I haven't been very clear, it's been very nebulous.
Like, I have this thing of like, I want to, uh, like devote myself to my business or, and I want to, but like there's, so, there's so much more there that I can explore. And what does that even fucking really mean? Like, what is it that I'm really wanting to devote myself to? And I think it's like, you know, I, one thing might be like, I really wanna devote myself to the art of, um,
Kyley: Yeah. Yeah.
Eva: You, you know what I mean? Or like creativity.
And then once I kind of like delineate that, it actually becomes a lot clearer for me to see what is, what is it that I'm devoting myself to. It's not that I am then working x amount of hours in my business, it's actually that I am going to spend. You know, 30 minutes [00:23:00] creatively writing, even if it's messy as fuck, you know, something like
Kyley: And I would add that, I think the phrase you said earlier was something about like making this work, making this business work. You said something along those lines a couple times and I would, I would propose that I think one of your core desires in this moment is about competence and power to the point earlier about like money coming around us
versus through us.
And I think there's this desire about like. I wanna be somebody who makes shit work.
I wanna be somebody who makes her business work, who makes like the pieces fall into place, who makes money show up when I'm ready for money to show up. There's a kind of like power, like empowered competence and competence
that I like feel
under the current. And if that's the true desire,
how interesting that money is coming through. You doing that for other people in their businesses,
right? Like that you're actually getting this experience and it's coming closer and closer to like filling you up in your own [00:24:00] work, but you're also simultaneously getting to see, oh yeah.
Like I am good at getting shit done. I am good at like helping other people make more money or run their business more efficiently.
Eva: I'm just laughing right now because this is where I think the stubbornness of, of having almost like a too singular focus gets in the way because I'm like, oh, like, and I'm, you know, I'm, I'm help, like I'm helping other people and I'm making shit work. I totally discount that. I literally have said, well, it doesn't count because it's not my own business.
I have literally said like, nah, whatever. It doesn't fucking matter. Like I, I, literal, I'm, I, I can't even describe how blind I am to it. Like it, it's almost like complete blindness because I completely negated it because in my ego mind, it has to come through this very specific way that I want it to look.
And so therefore I can't even let it in. I can't let the experience that you're talking about of like, oh, seeing that maybe I'm having the experience of like making [00:25:00] shit work. I don't even see it. And so I think this is a
Kyley: Yes.
Eva: of like
surrender because, because it's like I want it to look this specific way, but I can still have a very similar experience.
It could just look a little different and I think there's a little bit of contending I need to do with like, okay, well, am I comfortable letting it come in a different way, not just
Kyley: And also if you can surrender the at attachments, like it has to be this way that actually makes it easier for it to be that
way. Right? Like because of the attachment to it being this way, it's like there's all this resistance around it,
right? And so like I feel as I almost can like feel money knocking at the door, like with all these other people's
businesses and the work that you're doing there to be like, yeah, let's just do this in your business.
Right? But by discrediting the other work, it makes it you. You're not, you're not getting, it's okay. of the things I think about a lot is our identity. And often I think we are chasing an identity and we're trying to like give [00:26:00] ourselves an identity, which is interesting. We could. I would love to have a sidebar conversation one time about like ego versus identity, but Or are they the same thing?
But
anyway, I think a lot of times, like we wanna have an identity like, oh, I am confident and competent and I make shit happen and I make money and I'm good at what I do. And then, and then we discredit all the places where we are already that thing
because we're attached to the chasing of that
identity instead of allowing ourselves to actually already be
that thing.
Right. Because I think that that's underneath some of this, like making it work in your business really. I think what you want, there's a bunch of things that we want in any given moment, but like there's a part of you who just wants to be like, I'm so good at shit.
But you're like discrediting all these places in ways where you are good at shit in part because you're actually attached to seeking the identity
rather than
being,
Eva: Yeah. Well, yeah, I've, I, 100% I've so totally seen that in myself. You know, it's just, it just becomes [00:27:00] habitual. It's like that's my whole way of, that's my whole mo. If I'm not that, then I, then I die. I cease thank you.
Kyley: I think what all this points to you is that surrender is really about surrender to attachment. We think sometimes that surrender is like a giving up, but I think that the energetics here is about like knowing what we want.
Like this beautiful description you had about devotion, that's about desire and like really I think a lot about like leaning in towards something like chest open, shoulders back, claiming what the desire is, being in devotion to desire, and then also totally letting go of attachment to how, what
specifics, right?
So it's just like I wanna feel so fucking competent and confident and good at what I do and I want to have a lot of money come into me. I don't get to decide what it looks like. I wanna share my work and have people fucking love it and share it and like be lit up by it. I wanna like [00:28:00] be this creative matrix and also I don't get to determine exactly what that looks like. And to me that's the practice listeners. I'm like literally leaning my chest forward and then like, like in towards the microphone, and then I'm like pushing back and putting my hands up in the air. It's like this very physical thing for me of like knowing what you fucking want and like claiming it, like really putting it in the center of your chest.
Like, this is what I want, this is the thing that is
Eva: start, start again, Jennifer. Okay. But what if what I want looks a really specific way, and I want it to look a specific way, and is that, I think there's value in that. Like, I don't wanna make that so I don't wanna make that wrong, but it's like, is that, I think that's, that's where my, that's where my confusion is.
I want it to look a really specific way.
Kyley: I think there's a. Uh, the, the, our attachment to it looking a specific way, I think is often ego like that is often attachment. I don't wanna make it wrong, but I want us to look at what's living underneath it.
Right? Like, what if you made bank helping [00:29:00] other people in their businesses and all of your social media shit started going viral and people asked you to talk on stage, like you don't fucking know, right?
Like,
right. What if you got the thing that you wanted? But it just looked completely different. And I think about this line that spirit gives me all of the time, and it's, it's never what you think it is. Like it literally can hear
spirit laughing like, I will have this like, total wish fulfillment, which is always better and also always different than the thing that I think I wanted.
And I will hear ss laughing like it's never what you think it is. And so I think our attachment to it being specific is helpful, but the surrender is like, to me, the practice of surrender is getting clear on. What is the thing under the thing? Like how do I wanna feel? What am I trying to, what experiences am I trying to create for myself and how do I honor those?
And then let go of the like nitty gritty specifics of, of the how.
Eva: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. And whenever you, whenever [00:30:00] we see that we are very attached to being a very specific way, I think that's helped. That tells us a, this thing is really precious, right? Whatever's under the surface is actually really precious. That's why we're getting kind of specific and maybe a little graspy. So it's worth honoring, but also that's an indicator that we're too attached and so we're not, so we're running interference 'cause we're not letting go of the
Kyley: how. Yeah. Yeah. That's so, so super helpful. And so this is almost like a bullet point number two, or maybe this is bullet point number one with like an, I know it's a a point, but it's like to the, to the listeners, to the person who wrote in with this question, it's like, um, yeah. I, I actually think that's such, like, such a helpful point of like looking if if there's something that you want and you, and it has to look a very certain way, look at what's underneath, look beyond, look deeper, um, 'cause and then honor that.
Eva: It's so simple. But I just wanted, I wanted to and I will sometimes literally see myself like putting the desired experience in the hands of spirit of just like, I want to feel so safe with money.
Kyley: There was a point, I don't know [00:31:00] any entrepreneur who hasn't had multiple points where they thought about getting a job and there was, there was a point once where I was like, oh, I guess maybe I need to look for a while ago. And I remember being mad. I remember like going through this whole emotional experience around it, and then ultimately I was like, okay, you know what My true desire is. And I kind of, that was the thing, I asked myself, what is the true desire? And I was like, the true desire is that I wanna feel really, really safe and taken care of financially and I wanna do this work.
I love this work. And so I'm gonna take those two desires and I'm gonna put 'em in the hands of the spirit and I'm gonna trust, like you will take care of me. I get to, I get both of these things. If I want them, that means I get them, but I'm not in charge of how, and maybe a job is the best, right? Maybe
a job will bring me financial security and then I'll spend a bunch of time writing a book and that'll be right.
And it didn't end up happening. I didn't need a job. Obvi, you know, obviously I'm still doing this full time. You know, we came out that that financial contraction period, but that moment allowed me to like let [00:32:00] go of all the resistance because I was like, I know exact, I know what I want and I'm honoring it.
And I'm like placing it like a gift in the hands of spirit and then trusting that y'all will take care of me, but I'm not in charge of, I don't know what the specifics are that are gonna help me the
best. Yeah. What it specifically looks like there might, you have ways that you probably would love it to look like, but you're saying it doesn't have to come through those avenues. Yeah. Okay. Helpful, helpful, helpful. Okay. I wanna bring us back to a point that you made earlier, which I think gets to this listener's question and is so poignant, is like, okay, let's just say we've really committed to doing something in our business, or maybe we're committed to, like, whatever one, something that we choose that's, that's close to our heart.
Eva: Then life comes in, in the form of your children, and it's just like she, your daughter just wants to snuggle you and you're trying to figure out, okay, so if commitment and devotion is choosing, if it's choosing and it's being intentional, it's like in that moment, if you're connected to, if you're committed to your business, it's [00:33:00] about choosing to set a boundary and saying, I need to work on this.
And asking your daughter to leave. And in my case, another just real life example I wanna give is like, I'm committing to my business or my some whatever, and then my health comes in and my health, you know, I have, I have chronic illness. And so, uh, uh, it's, it's this idea of like, I need rest, but also I need, I don't know, how do I choose my bus?
That's like, that's a very triggering, activating place for me where I get really confused because my number one go-to is always listen to my body. Like that's what I want it to be anyway. But that, can I get, I think I betray myself sometimes where I. Too far in that direction where I'm like, okay, well I have chronic illness, so I'm just gonna like quote unquote surrender.
But I actually think what I'm doing is like avoiding, or like I feel so overwhelmed that I'm just like, fuck it
and, and it's disguised as surrender. But actually I feel like I'm [00:34:00] abandoning my original
Kyley: Yes. Yes. Okay. So I love this question to name the stuff about the health stuff in particular. What comes to my mind is this is where the shoulds come back in because shoulds tell us that there's this like external map that we have to follow in order to have success, right? And so what I. We pause it is how do we build a business structure strategy, social media plan?
This is like full business coach. Can I forgive
me? But that honors the fact that you are someone who lives with chronic illness and that there are moments where your energy levels are inconsistent and there are times where you have to prioritize your health. And so how do we build like systems and structures in your work or like a way of being in your work or a series of offers in your work or whatever the case may be, that allow for that up and down energy rather than meaning up?
Well, we're down. Energy's [00:35:00] down and so all the lights go off in the business and we've shut off and that's where the should is really dangerous. 'cause should is like, well I should be able to show up every day, nine to five lights
on. That's so people know I have a
business if it's not that I must be doing it wrong or, and, and,
I think there's actually some like structural stuff that you, we can build that, um.
Eva: Okay. I think that's a lot going on in that response. I'm like, okay. Whoa. That's like a lot to contemplate, but one, I think I love that. That's just like a very practical like. I dunno, structural thing, you know? But I think really oftentimes when I'm contending there, when that happens, is like, it doesn't feel like a should.
It feels like a want. It's like, I really want to work in my business. I really want to, you know, and it doesn't feel like then I should, it feels like, like a frustration because it's like I'm, I have this thing that I was so excited about. I'm like, you know, you know, you know this feeling, you've brought it up many times.
You get so fucking stoked and then all of a sudden, but you can't.
Yeah.
And then you can't fucking do the thing that you wanna do. [00:36:00] And there, I mean, I already kind of know the answer. 'cause I think there, it's really obvious is that like, there's reality.
Reality is you need to pick up your kids. And the reality is, my body is shut down so I can't work.
And, and, and to deny that or fight against that is insanity, you know? And also really, really painful. And so in those moments, it's like, you, I, that's where I can surrender. It's like, okay, well you know what? I can't really fucking, I can't do anything about this. And I mean, I can kick and scream. I, I guess, or I can just.
Those moments of surrendering I think are really helpful. 'cause it's like I can't fight with a reality. Like I need to go pick up my kids 'cause I'm not gonna leave them there alone for an hour. Do you know what I mean?
Um, and so in some ways, I dunno, there's just to the listeners I'm kind of offering is like notice when we're really arguing with reality in a way that is, um, that is futile, you know?
Um, but then, but, but it's, but in terms of like the long game of [00:37:00] like, well I really want to, and you know, we have with our kids too, it's like you really, I see this with you a lot. It's like you're so devoted as a mother and that is your number one priority through and through, but your business is a
Kyley: Yeah.
Yeah. Yeah. I sometimes
joke that
Eva: You, you know what I mean?
Kyley: for sure. Yeah.
Eva: Yeah, exactly. And so it's not that you feel like you should
Kyley: then I want to
and sometimes I'm, sometimes I'm like, yeah, Jen, sometimes I'm annoyed at the responsibility of motherhood. That's
like, I'm, I'm on a roll. I'm like
really excited. I don't wanna go to school pickup right
now. Um, yeah, like this year we realized, yeah. Anyways,
um,
Eva: So it's like that, that, that, that moment of commitment is, um, where I get confused.
Kyley: I think,
Eva: But by the way, I also, I also just wanna say really quick, I love that idea of like, creating a structure for my business that works, that honors also my body. Like, yes, that's
Kyley: yeah, I know a great
Eva: and I, and
Kyley: She can talk to you offline with
some ideas.
Eva: Yeah.
Kyley: [00:38:00] Um, this might be like an ignorant statement 'cause I'm not somebody who lives with, with, with illness. But what I'm also wondering is like, if, if there are moments when your body is like, Nope, and you have this desire, is there. Is there a way that you can be engaged in the creative work of your business that can meet your energy level? Like is there a, is there a dichotomy happening that is not fully, like, not fully serving you where you can be in rest mode but still be in the like, creative energy of like authentic sharing
from, uh, in your business that gets to happen while you're in rest mode when your body's at like 20%?
Uh, and I don't know the answer to that. Um, but I wonder if there is just like something that's available in those moments that makes you feel [00:39:00] connected to it. 'cause I can feel a little bit of like a faucet on faucet off energy for you that
is like
Eva: Yes.
Kyley: Like you're creatively frustrated
by the faucet on faucet off.
And so what does it look like to be in. Creative energy while your business is when, when you need to be in low power mode.
Eva: Yeah. I mean, I think that goes back, this is related to like the structures in business, right? That can be helpful. Um, and I think sometimes that is the case and sometimes it is just no, it is like a, yeah.
And I think really what I'm speaking more to is the times when it's just like, no, it's not even an option.
Like, and sometimes it's really painful. And I think what I'm experiencing right now, like, you know, there's tears here, is that sometimes in surrendering it's like facing the grief. Like I think there's been a lot of grief for me, um, in terms like, you know, being, you know, whatever chronically ill [00:40:00] and, and I think you've experienced this too.
I've seen you, it's like the grief of like not being able to do everything that you wanna do, you know? And like the limitations that we feel in life. And I think that's why this question also feels so big to me, this surrendering is 'cause that sometimes surrendering sucks and it gets you in touch with something that you're meant to feel, which is like the grief or whatever, you know, sadness or anger or rage that's there when things don't go the way that you want
Kyley: Yeah.
Eva: Yeah, and I think we've, you know, we've, I like, that's been a big lesson for me this year of like, noticing how, I don't think I always acknowledge like how challenging it is. You know, I, I, I'm really good at like, you know, putting my best space forward and trying to be positive. And, but really this year it's been really clear that like my chronic illness has really limited [00:41:00] me in life.
And it's been super frustrating and feeling all of that, you know,
and to be with what's, what's there. And I think that's, I don't know, I'm curious if you have more, but it's like, I think that's sometimes the only way. Just like be with and nurture and love and be angry and feel all the fucking feelings and then an acceptance.
Kyley: And, um, it fucking hurts to have to sit in the heartbreak of
real loss. It hurts, but there's also something cathartic about the the like true. And so, um, there's something really beautiful in like, oh, that's the thing that's been underneath there
wanting love and attention. Yeah.
One of the things that popped into my head is, um, in this, like in seeing the grief. Like there are just some things that I can't [00:42:00] do. A prayer rising up that's like, show me how this works.
Right? I have this desire
Eva: Hmm.
Kyley: business, for creative expression, for this beautiful work, for sharing my voice, for abundance, and I have this body with these needs.
So show me how it works
instead of
a little bit of like a dichotomy energy. But I like bringing them together.
Like this is the, this is, this is where I am living right now, so show me how this works. And that being a surrender that it does to me, that doesn't feel like an avoidance surrender, right? That feels like a surrender.
That's like, I don't know, but there's gotta be a way, because I wouldn't have this desire if there wasn't a way. And
so show
me.
Eva: Hmm.
Yeah, I think that's [00:43:00] really just a helpful reminder of like always coming back to my relationship with God for. In, in these moments. And that is a surrender of like, I actually think it's a beautiful demonstration of like, of intentionality and still staying committed to the desire, but also letting go.
'cause like, it's like this humility of like, I don't know how this fucking works, so show me and I'm willing to be shown. But I think like what I am experiencing now, you know, I, I want to bring it back to the listener's question is this idea of like, I think, you know, they asked how do I know when I'm gripping too tightly in control versus one I'm actually being asked to stay.
Oh actually, well not, yeah. How do I know when Actually, I don't have an answer to that. Well, how do we know Kyley when we're gripping too tightly? Because I think with me and my [00:44:00] body, it's sometimes I've just been forced to see because I keep trying it, I keep trying, I keep trying to make it work even though I'm tired and I, and it's just not work. I am banging my head against the wall
and I'm like, do we just learn through experience?
Kyley: I mean, one of the things that I think I've learned from you over and over again is that like, where there's suffering, there's attachment and suffering is not the same thing as grief or anger, right? Like
being in our feelings is not suffering, but the like, scratchy ways that we avoid being in them. And so I feel like, um, yeah, like where there's, where there's suffering for, which for me is like when I'm ruminating.
When I'm like looping
or
Eva: Yeah, there's a specific flavor to it.
It's like this hyper hypervigilant sometimes for me, it shows up this way of like very,
uh, exhausting.
Kyley: Yes.
Well, and it's interesting. I just [00:45:00] had a recent experience. I mean, I had a couple experiences on this topic lately, but one of them has been like this really, um. Like, like my brain has just been like trying to figure something out and then like, like, so okay, I set out an ambitious goal, revenue goal for myself for the fall, September through, uh, December. And then immediately got to work to be like, okay, like, here's what we're gonna do. And I got excited and I was like, planning, and I love that
shit, right? And at this stage in my business, I don't plan in a selfa abandoning way. And every time I would go to like, execute on the plan, I just get fucking knocked sideways.
Like, I just really kept running into all of this interference around, like writing the things or saying, and I'd be like sitting here at my desk, like, just like not, uh, the, the words were not available or like the presence to like, anyways. And there's, there was a lot of frustration. It's like, what the fuck?
Why is this so hard? Right. Um, and a bunch of, there's a, there were [00:46:00] a bunch of things in that, some of that was me just like seeing old, like perfectionist patterns that were still running there, but also. I had one plan of what I wanted to focus on my business on, which was a lot of like the money healing work that I do, and like alchemy and shameless wealth. And then the whole fucking world had like another round American had another round of these like big political, you know, fashion storm conversations. And all of a sudden spirit was like, Hey, remember when you taught that course firebrand? Remember all that work that you've been doing on like anti-capitalist business for the past six years?
Maybe, maybe you should share more about. And I was like, oh, I had a plan that I couldn't get off the ground because it was my plan instead of like, actually I am just like a vessel for the work that wants to come out in
the world. And I was just trying to force my plan without even realizing that's what was happening.
And so it was like so hard. There was like just [00:47:00] so much, like I couldn't even find the words. It was just like so much contraction and suffering and force in it. Then the minute that I realized, oh, I need to pivot and I need to do, like, you know, basically I think of my work as like the inner work and then some of the like more outer action stuff.
Anyway, the minute I like let myself pivot, I wrote an entire like 15 to 20 page workbook in a day.
Eva: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
Kyley: like, like downloaded all this stuff, all these words came out, it was like super smooth. It was like super on fire. And I share that because it was this moment of like, the surrender for me in that moment was just like, it's not, the work is not about you and it's not about your idea of what you think it should do.
And so the suffering was actually really helpful because the suffering was pointing me back towards like, oh hey, maybe there's a easier way.
And so suffering, I think
[00:48:00] often.
Eva: Yeah. Suffering oftentimes points us to the other, another path. Yeah. Okay. I love that because I think what you said, wait. Okay, so one thing that I wanna point out, what you said is like, you were on this, you were, you were [00:49:00] forcing and contorting and trying to make it work without even knowing that's what you were doing is what you said.
And I think that's calling back to this person's question of like, how do I know when I'm gripping too tightly? And I think in the truth is, is like sometimes we don't know until we know. And I actually think that's okay. If we can let the, the gripping. Be like, turn to wisdom, essentially. Like, it doesn't mean that we're not gonna get into gripping.
Like sometimes we will just get into that fucking pattern and in fact we will get into that pattern. And I don't think it's about preventing it. And I think
that's, I think that's a really good point because I think that's what we're, we're, we think we're supposed to be doing all the time. It's like we're preventing the gripping, but, and then, and this is what we're like looking out for it, you know?
And then we start to get really like analytical, like, am I gripping now? Am I gripping now? Am I surrendering? Am I surrendering? You know, it's like,
I think that's a trap that we can get into when that takes us out of the flow in itself. So I think it's just [00:50:00] about like, like acknowledgement of like, we will grip and we can use that gripping energy to redirect us.
Because I actually think that sometimes that's like the, that's the support. There's the beauty, there's beauty in support in
gripping.
Kyley: And I love this question, what is the wisdom in the gripping? Because in addition to like, I was just walking, I was just trying to follow a plan that wasn't actually the thing to be doing in this moment. The other piece is that, um, I, um. I saw. 'cause my practice then for a couple of weeks was just like sitting with the, with the, with the suffering, sitting with the contractions.
So I had this like really like buzzy feeling in my body when I would try to write certain things. And so I would just sit with it. I'd just spend like 20 minutes laying on the ground in my office, like feeling that discomfort and being with it. And in addition to the other pieces that I mentioned, what I saw and what I was sitting with was the [00:51:00] part of me who was like, you're gonna have to be big and seen in order to accomplish this goal.
Right? If you're gonna, like s you picked a goal and you put it in spirit's hand and so now you know it's gonna happen. 'cause that's how thing, you know, it's what I experience. And so like now. You are that that means you're gonna be seen, you're gonna be perceived, you're gonna like have a whole bunch of more stings and people and opportunities in your space.
And like that could get real scary, that could actually like fuck shit up, up in
here. Like we got a nice cozy little
situation. What are you doing? Making the like open it up the doors and the windows. And so the wisdom in the gripping was like, I just had to love on this fear that was like, yeah, you know what it, it is gonna be scary
to be perceived and it will be and we might even get hurt.
And I just had to like sit with that. So I
really, really, really
Eva: Mm.
Kyley: what you're pointing to around the wisdom in the gripping instead of just trying to pretend it's not there or force [00:52:00] past the gripping,
right?
Eva: Right. Or prevent it. Prevent it. Yeah. It's like we can work with the gripping, but, and I think we can actually get faster, you know, like
skillfully we can, we can notice it and notice it and, and then, you know, let it do its magic, which
is kind of
Kyley: Yes.
Eva: So, and I keep coming back to the sister's question because I wanna really, I think there's just so much in here and I wanna be really thorough about it, but it's like, okay, so I think, how do I know when I'm gripping too tightly?
Sometimes you will know and sometimes you won't know or you'll know when you know, like, 'cause once you know, you caught it. And then the second part of that question is versus, um, when, how do I know when I'm getting too tightly in control versus when I'm actually being asked to stay committed and persevere despite obstacles
and.
I actually think that what's coming up for me in that question is like, there's ways to stay committed to the goal, um, feel [00:53:00] generative and nourishing and create, you know, creative and loving rather than like, tension, tension, tension, tension force, force, force. And so I think I'm interested in looking at this is a little bit, it comes back to what you were saying about creating a structure for my business where like I may not be able to write the whole course in a week the way that I want to, but I can stay committed by doing 30 minutes a day or something, you know, like whatever
Kyley: One of the things that's interesting is something I experienced this summer around this question of force and like, you're right, the answer is there are softer ways to accomplish our like goals or to be in devotion. And sometimes the answer is to. Lean the fuck into the discomfort because we want the thing, [00:54:00] and this is where like our own inner discernment is so powerful, and I'm gonna give an example. So at the beginning of the summer I signed up for this new gym. It's like, I think I shared about it on the podcast floor, but it's like kind of intimate classes, strength training, gym, and I love it.
And it was such a bitch to get myself to show up to the classes and I kept one. I mean, still on some level I can feel the part of it was like we could just quit doing this. And all of that is because. The identity shift required to be somebody who works out versus somebody who, like my whole life has been a story of like, I'm not that strong.
I've won two half marathons people, right? Like
and birthed two children. Like I am strong and I carried birdie all across the city of Paris, right? But I have a story that is very comfortable to me that I'm not a very strong person. Why am I attached to that? We don't have to get into that right now, but I totally [00:55:00] have this story, right?
And so going to this gym with like regular discipline two times a week is like, I remember it was like the second class and I was like, oh, if I do this, like I'm gonna get strong,
right? And then that, and then another week was when I was like, oh, I actually am already strong. But anyway, point is I didn't want to commit to the class schedule, and I had to really push myself to get there because I didn't wanna make that change. Of identity, right? Like, and, and like 'cause change is fucking scary, right? so we teeter on the edge of the things that we want and then, but in order to like let the business take off or let the creative expression really flow or really fall madly, deeply in love, like whatever the thing is, there is some like internal shift that has to happen that puts us into a new and therefore kind of [00:56:00] terrifying arena. And we will always try to stop. Some part of us will always try to send the brakes on
that because we are just hardwired for same and for familiar. And I think we just have to know that, that we're gonna come up to a place where it's like, oh, you know what? We could just stop right here. This is fine,
you know?
And. That's where, for me it's helpful to go, to, go back to the same thing I was saying earlier, to really be clear on what is the real desire here
instead of the material outcome, but the like, state of being stuff and like how I wanna feel because that's when I anchor back into like, no, I, like, I am someone who is strong and I want to feel strong in my body.
And like, it's important to me to like let this change happen. And so when all the interference and excuses and like shit showed up, I had to dec I had to decide, no, this matters that much to me. Um,
but I just think we have to know that our psyche is gonna sh throw up all the obstacles in the world to actually [00:57:00] change.
Eva: Okay, so this is a really important point that you're bringing up, which I think oftentimes. Is an area where I feel confusion. So I'm really glad you brought it up because that goes back again to this question I think of like, uh, you know, devotion and discipline versus surrender. I love what you're saying.
I hear what you, and I hear you like sometimes there just needs to be like, let's fucking go Jennifer, can you edit that out? Sometimes there needs to be, it doesn't need to be, but sometimes actually, yeah, sometimes there needs to be this like, I'm gonna like love myself and I want to be strong, so let's have this, like, let's fucking go energy and let's push ourselves past what's comfortable.
But that's a little bit tricky because I, I, for me. I almost feel like, you know, comparable to like addicts, you know, it's like they can't just do a little bit, they have to go all the fucking way. And so that's where [00:58:00] it gets, um, I have a really hard time with that balance of like, what, where do I stop?
Let's fucking go energy. And when do, or when and when does that stop? And when do I get, am I enforcing territory? That becomes a little bit what I call like a, there's subtle violence there. Like that's the thing about forces that I can feel it. There's this subtle energy of violence and that not only isn't great for my nervous system, but it's also not how I doesn't align with my value system.
You know what I mean? Like, that's just not a place that I, that's not how I wanna live my life.
So, so, and then that becomes like this control thing where we get like really intense and we're like, oh my God. Like I have to go, I said I was gonna go to the gym, blah, blah, blah, blah. And so like, how do we discern, I think what you're saying is like, it's really important to know how to discern and I.
That is I think part of the listener's question. That's my question. It's like, yeah, what are your thoughts on that?
Kyley: Let me think for a second.
Eva: And I'm curious if you ever had that experience, you know, as well, just like [00:59:00] when that sort of like inspired energy becomes distorted.
Kyley: for sure. I mean, hello. Running a business for six years,
Right.
Like,
Eva: Yeah. Right.
Kyley: um, I mean, part of me is like, I just keep thinking of this image of like a balance, right? And like devotion and commitment, or not actually a linear path, but it's like a practice, right? And sometimes we're too avoidant and then sometimes we're too exacting. And then the, the, the practice is actually just bringing ourselves back into, devote into the center. But I think this is where again, we have to know what we're living. A question that spirit asks me often is like, what are you living in devotion to?
I think I've shared in the podcast, the first time I got asked this question, the answer was worry. I did not like realizing that. Um, but so like, so I think [01:00:00] like, I, I think this is tricky 'cause it's not a one size fit fits all answer. And I think maybe it's also helpful to know which way you tend to skew. Like I think I tend to be more avoidant then I tend to be exacting. Like that's
just in my
Eva: so interesting. Okay. I love that you're pointing it out because I tend to be way more exacting than avoidant. Oh, okay. Good to, interesting to note.
Kyley: And I think, I also think that there's like chapters of our life, like okay, when I was in my twenties and even early thirties and in my corporate career, I think I was more exacting and, um. I didn't take pleasure in it always. 'cause I was still very hard on myself, but I was much more like, this is the list, so you're gonna get it done.
And then I spent a long time kinda fostering this softer energy and so the, the all like, the devotion practice was like, if you don't want to, don't, and there was like a lot of intentional energy. I'm like, if you [01:01:00] don't want to, don't. And that was the what I needed. And this past couple months in particular has felt like a little more, um, maybe the past year in different ways, but has been like a, if you, if it doesn't matter what you want, if you, if you want the thing, you
gotta do it. Even though you don't want to
Eva: Want to Yes, yes. Do the thing even though you don't want to. I think that is often the nar. Okay. So that's where it gets tricky, right? 'cause that's like 100% the narrative in, in terms of like the suc field of success. Like do it even if you don't want to. That's what
Kyley: Mm-hmm.
Eva: we're taught and it's like. Is if you take that too far, that's where like capitalistic culture gets really toxic.
And, but also there's, there's complete validity and truth in that statement that sometimes we have to do it even if we don't want to. So that is the, that is the, the [01:02:00] core of what I'm trying to get at here is like, how do we know we're supposed to do it even if we don't want
to
Kyley: is like, um. Self abandonment. And so like, okay, so I am very devoted to my kids, which means that, you know, I sit in the room until they fall asleep every night.
I do not want to do that. And I've created a monster.
And now this is the thing that I do, but like, I am devoted to my kids.
And that's what, like, I, you know, we have this like whole bedtime routine or like, I make them breakfast, breakfast every morning, even though I would rather be drinking my coffee, right? There's a million reasons where like, my kids are an easy example of like, I am devoted to like, taking care of them and to loving them.
And so I do things that aren't necessarily the top desire, but the greater desire is that my kids experience safety and love and care, and I have to pay attention to where I self abandon in service of taking care of them because that actually doesn't benefit anybody. And that, that's such a learning edge for me.
And I am not, you know,
[01:03:00] um, do as I say, not as I do.
Um, but
like. And, but same thing in business. Like there is something important I think invaluable about, you know, okay, you don't really want to, you know, make a social media post right now, but we're gonna make a quick video anyway because we want, because we want this greater thing,
which is maybe
Eva: Yeah, yeah.
Kyley: or growth or whatever.
But the sneaky gremlin is like where not doing it from self abandonment. And I think should, is an energy of self abandonment because should says, you're bad if you
don't do this, you should do this. Like you can prove and earn goodness if you do it, you're bad if you don't.
And so I think one of the ways that we can discern when doing it, despite the discomfort benefits us is A, walking into what our true desire
is.
And then B, looking out for self [01:04:00] abandonment and like. Integrating ourselves and caring for ourselves in the choices that we're making.
Eva: Okay. Okay. Well that's gonna be another sort of bullet point here if you, if you will, because I think that is, that really answers the question of like, I can really see that it's like, uh, when do we do, like, when we do the thing, even if we don't want to, like going to the gym or going to sleep early, or going to sleep on time or waking up early or whatever, even if we don't want to, it's like, I, I'm really gonna like heap this close to my heart.
It's like, I think it's when it, it serves me from a place of love in terms of like, you know, honoring this bigger desire that I have, but without harming myself,
without abandoning myself. And so that's a really helpful framework for me in terms of like, when I'm feeling really tired and, you know, with chronic fatigue and my body's just like shutting down.
That's where it gets tricky. Sometimes I will try and force myself and I can tell that I'm actually harming myself. That's like, and [01:05:00] to me, I can actually, that can be quite noticeable. So that's helpful. And then there are ways where it's like, no, I think I can actually follow through with this, and I'm not harming myself.
I'm actually honoring myself. And then on top of that, there's this idea of like, but also intricate situations where it's not very clear. It's like, okay, but uh, maybe I can't do the whole thing, but I can do like half of the thing, or I can do it in a softer, gentler way. And that's not harming myself and still honoring myself.
And sometimes I can go fucking whole hog, you know, sometimes I need to just get put on my girl big girl panties and do the thing that's fucking uncomfortable and I'm not harming and I'm not harming myself. You know what I mean? So that's like such a helpful framework. Yeah.
Kyley: Okay. And there's another piece to this that has been showing up for me lately, and it's this question of like, what am I surrendering to?
And lately this theme of like, you gotta let go has been showing up per usual. And in [01:06:00] meditation, what I've been seeing is this fear that I have where it's like I'm holding this thing and everyone and I can feel the energy.
It's like, okay, you, you gotta let go. And I'm like, who?
Eva: Yes,
100%. Who the
Kyley: I dunno if I trust
Eva: or what?
Kyley: What is this surrender to us like? And I, it's really interesting because obviously we both have such deep spiritual practices and it's really funny how much like I'm touching into this part of you who's just like, I don't God, who's what? Uh, Ew.
Eva: Yeah, yeah,
exactly. Who the fuck are you? Who do you think you are? Yeah, so it's, no, it's nice to see that that can still arise with pe, you know, within having a very deep spiritual practice. So,
is there a question there?
Kyley: mean, yeah. What do, who am I surrendering to and how do I
get
Eva: Can I trust it?
Kyley: Yeah,
Eva: Yeah, I think, I think that's the question. And yeah, we can't have a [01:07:00] conversation about surrender without talking about God and life and source 'cause it's like, well, what the fuck am I surrendering to? And I think that is really tricky. Like when things have generally gone well, it's easy for us to believe that we live in a supportive universe and that like the universe is supporting us or, and has our back.
But I think your question is like, but what happens when something really fucking terrible happens? Something really traumatic happens and you're like, well, why the fuck should I trust life if I can get in a car accident and like really injure myself? Or you know, if like a loved one dies or whatever.
And I think, I mean, I don't know if I have the answer in. I think this is a bigger conversation about like whether or not we can trust life. And we've actually recorded a podcast episode on that listener. So if you wanna go back, let's go find that episode. I think it's called like how to actually Trust life or How to Trust Life.
And so it's an ongoing practice, [01:08:00] um, I think I do have a pretty regular practice of just like going, like looking at my, just looking around and being like, can I, in this moment, can I trust life? Like in, in this, in this moment on a moment by moment basis. And it, and it makes it so alive for me because I'm not in the past or the future, but it's like in my lived experience right now.
There's no denying that I can trust life. Like even like there's, I can't, it would be insane for me to think otherwise because it's just very fucking clear. I'm sitting here talking to you. That's all the proof that I really need,
that I can trust, that I can trust life, but it is a choice. Do you know what I mean?
It's a choice
and I can't, I think I choose that intentionally over not trusting life because I can't, that alternative like I don't want to. Why would I do that to
myself?
Kyley: Right? Yes. Yes. And what I think, what's interesting for me, you know, a lot of my spiritual practice, I mean I have many layers to it, but some part of my spiritual practice is that I work with a lot of like [01:09:00] daddies and ancestors and the fe. And so I think there's a funny, there's kind of an amusing flavor to this question because what I am asking this question, like who am I surrendering to?
I actually can feel this like pantheon of like. Kind of divine beings that I work with. And I'm like, well, is it you
goddess of love? Is it you God of tricks?
Like which one of you is in charge of this particular? There's something like, there's something just, it actually makes me laugh
because also what I can feel is of, I, I experience all the like deities that I work with as like facets of the divine just as much as like you and I are facets of the divine.
And so what, what I actually think that I'm touching into is this like almost buffering around like actually letting myself feel the thing that is beyond the facets
and like really letting myself right in this energy of like, who are you? Who, who, who is [01:10:00] asking for my surrender? Who am I trusting with my dreams?
I think there is a part of me that is like actually longing to really experience, um, just like. Transcendence without name,
right. And which I've experienced before. But I can feel this is helpful to articulate out loud. I can feel that there's basically a desire to, like I'm answering my own question 'cause I'm feeling how much, oh, actually, I think what I want is to just sit in and I started to do this the other night, is like sit in meditation and experience.
Okay, well like show me. Show me what I'm surrendering to, then I'll give you the receipts.
Right. But a little bit of like wanting to just experience what this thing is that I intellectually know, but in this moment,
this iteration of me in this moment can't remember how it feels.
Does that make sense
what I'm describing?
Eva: Well, and it to, it totally makes sense and I love the practice of being like, well, show me, show me what it is that I am putting all of my faith in devotion. [01:11:00] And I think it comes back to remembering. It's like the practice of like, well, once I've forgotten, then that's where like spiritual practices really come in.
Of sitting with ourselves
in presence
is like, then you can be shown and it not, and it can be felt, you know, it's on, you may not even understand it intellectually, but it's like a felt experience and it's just really interesting. 'cause I feel like I see what you mean when you say like, you have this like pantheon, it's
like the whole panel, the whole
Kyley: yes,
Eva: of people you know, that you, that you work with, which is like, I
can just hear them all chiming
Kyley: I mean, sometimes I'm like, y'all are noisy. I can't tell who I'm supposed to be listening to. 'cause Sue's a bunch of you.
Eva: yeah. And I think that's like actually so great and so fun. And I also think that it's like, whatever it is, I dunno what I see is like, but all, it's like what? What you're like surrendering to is the greater power that holds all of those people too. Like they're the characters but, and then there's like something even greater that's [01:12:00]
holding all of them,
but they're not the end all be all.
Kyley: And I think, uh, this is really interesting and I'm, I'm so grateful to have voiced this so I could kind of start to get my own answer because I think I didn't realize how much Yeah, just you, you said experience. It is, it's like this, the exper experiencing something allows us to remem is the remembering. And, um, okay, I'm gonna sit down ly night and just like do some experiencing and, okay. What's also interesting, going back earlier when I was talking about, we were talking about the wisdom and the gripping, like part of what I was sitting with was how afraid I am to experience everything cyclical,
right?
And so part of what I was sitting in was this part of me was just like, we wanna stay gripping. We don't want to experience. And I guess what I'm speaking to now is like all that frustration, which I just feel like, what's the fucking point of this? I just wanna speak and write and share my shit. Why am I having to sit here for hours just feeling buzzy and uncomfortable, but [01:13:00] actually I can now see mm-hmm. What I was burning through was some of my resistance to experiencing
so that now I can answer this request, which is to go sit
and allow myself to experience what it is that I'm surrendering to,
which then enables the surrendering
meaning. It's all, it's all meaningful, it's all worthwhile, it's all valuable.
Eva: Yeah.
Kyley: And maybe that's the final point that I would share is like the question is so rich and there is no clear answer because there also is no right answer. It's
just about us like showing up in the messiness of it
and like continuing the practice of finding the balance. And
it's always
changing.
Yes.
Eva: It's like we're all, yeah. It's like we don't need, it's, it's, it's so, it's so tricky, you know? 'cause like once we get on the spiritual path, it can be really easy to, whether we know it or not, and it's. We get dogmatic with ourselves and think like there's [01:14:00] a right way to do it, you know?
And no, it's actually the right, the quote, if there is a right way, it's the right way. Is like to, like, there's that, there is no right way. You're, you're, you're like, the finding comes in, the being lost, you know?
So Yeah. And we, you can't do it wrong, essentially. Like, I love that idea. Like, what if you just like can't do it wrong?
Kyley: yes,
yes, yes.
Eva: Um, yeah. But I will say, I actually just remembered an, another episode that we created or that we recorded a long time ago called like How to Actually Surrender,
which I think was also a really rich conversation. I feel like we're just touching into that, you know, this trusting of life, trusting of God.
What does that look like? So if you are also just want more of like, but how do you actually, how do you actually surrender then? I
think that is an
adjacent, adjacent
conversation. Yeah. Whew. Okay. Well hopefully God take the wheel, but not my dreams listener. I hope we are able to offer some helpful facets.
I mean, I think that was really [01:15:00] helpful
Kyley: Yeah. Thank
Eva: super
Kyley: I got a lot
out of that question. Keep sending us your questions. We're really loving this season's approach of getting into,
dive into the questions that are alive for you, so keep sending them to us.
Do you wanna do a round of joy?
Eva: yes, please. Um, do you want me to
go because I, I have one
Kyley: Yeah. Yeah. My beloved. Eva, what's something bringing you joy right now?
Eva: So, Liz Gil Gilbert came out with her new book All the Way to the River. Have you heard?
Yeah. Um, and so I'm gonna spend some time talking about my whole relationship with Liz Gilbert. 'cause I just think it's funny, but. She's someone who I completely rolled my eyes at when she first came out, because I watched that movie, eat, pray, love.
And it was, that was my first introduction. And
I was like, I was like, this is a piece of shit. I hate this movie. And I was like, she must just be some dumb, dumb, whatever, whatever. I just, I totally wrote her off. And then of course, I, a couple years ago I went through a huge breakup that was, that, you know, changed a lot of my life
Kyley: You had your own e Pray love [01:16:00] moment.
Eva: I had, I had basically, like, it played by like so parallel to her experience that I had, yeah, very much neat Pray, love, experience. And she was, um, a companion actually with me through that whole experience. And I turned out to really love that book. And since then I've just been like such a big fan. And so I followed her work in terms of like, you know, she married the guy that she met at the end of that book and he pray love.
And then in following her work, she's shared, little tiny, she's like dropped little pieces here and there about how her life has changed. And one thing that was huge was that. She ended up falling in love with her best friend, Raya and who got cancer. And then, so she ended up, you know, divorcing from her husband so that she could be with Raya.
And this whole book is like finally, like years later after Raya died. Um, and went through like some crazy ass fucking addiction. And they both went through addiction together. She writes this memoir, and let me tell you guys, folks, it is a fucking [01:17:00] ride. Like, um, I wouldn't say it's like the best book I've ever read.
I, it didn't, it didn't move me the same way that Eat, pray, loved did. But one thing that I really commend Elizabeth Gilbert for is like her crazy honesty. Like she is not trying to make herself look good, let me tell you that. And it is a big and bold endeavor because she's a pretty public figure.
At least in some, in some, I mean, time named her one of the most
Kyley: Yeah. I think I would definitely, I think she's a pretty, yeah.
Pretty.
Eva: yeah, you think so?
It's, it gets ugly. You go, it's like, damn, there's some fucking crazy shit going on there, you know? And it was actually so relieving. 'cause I was like, people really are just messy and don't have their shit figured out. And I found that to be a great gift of like, it's very humanizing, you know?
Just of me, of not just her but me. Of like, of like the fact that we are flawed
Kyley: Yes. [01:18:00] Well, and I, I have not read the book, although I do, uh, really enjoy her, um, and the things of hers that I have read. But I think it's interesting how much we love a linear, tidy story, right? And like, how convenient if Liz Gilbert's story was Eat, pray, love, and then she was married to this guy and she was like, just wrote about creativity and was like, tidy and put together, but actually like human living is, is fucking messy. And then we, or we shit on ourselves for it being messy,
uh, and for our own mess. And so, uh, yeah, I, it's been, I saw it recently and it's been on my to read list, so, um, but
I, Yeah,
I appreciate, like, I appreciate the arc of like, you know what, we're all just actually a mess
and there might be some grace in that.
Eva: yeah. Especially someone for her. 'cause she is basically very, she's like, you know, the self-help in some ways like acknowledged for being a self-help person. And essentially what she's trying to say is, I've gone backwards,[01:19:00]
you know, like I went so backwards, but there is no backwards, there's actually no such thing, you know?
But like, I, I don't, it's just really commendable because I don't, you know, when I think I, it just shows me how much I think I try to protect myself as well and like want to be, wanna present myself as someone who like, has their shit together. Um, I do wanna say one thing. I don't know. I don't actually think the book was like the best like written.
In the most, in the best way possible. But I think it's a, it's a good read if you, oh, and also do, are you familiar with love addiction?
Kyley: No.
Eva: Because that's what a lot of this book is about. Like her, what she, her, her disease, if, you know, if you consider addiction to be a disease, which I do, is that she's like, love and sex.
She's a love and sex addict. And it's just, it's just, it's very fascinating to me because my cousin identifies as a love addict and she's the only person I've known and she's been like [01:20:00] trying to scrap it together, you know? 'cause she's like, is this even a real thing? She's just getting information on the internet.
But like, I don't know, I think this could be the beginning of awareness for a lot of people that this is something that people experience
because it's not as commonly acknowledged as like, you know, drug addiction, food addiction, shopping, addiction. Like I think love addiction is a real thing. And I think it's.
It's kinda even a new frontier in the morning. She's really bringing
it to
Kyley: Well, Liz Gilbert, if you wanna come on the Hill Universe podcast and talk about your new book, we'd love to, I
think
we could squeeze you in.
Eva: We would love to
have you. Yeah.
Okay. So that's my joy. I've been really just enjoying. Um, yeah, I finished, I finished that and really enjoyed it. Okay. Kyley, what about you? What's something that's bringing you
Kyley: I have an office with a door that is not in my house, everybody,
Eva: Oh my
Kyley: and
Eva: God, Yes,
yes.
Kyley: best. I have, I've had offices before. Um, but my [01:21:00] first office, I like split with somebody. So like I had it some days of the week and she had it other days of the week. And then there was someone in the building who was like a DJ at night, so you couldn't go at night because
Eva: Oh my
Kyley: kind of a funky setup.
And then I had an office that was like part of a, like a micro school and those, that was lovely except my office was next to like, where they would practice their musical. And
so like.
Eva: Oh,
Kyley: day of the week at like one o'clock. Instead of being able to do client calls, I was like listening to their same Adams family musical songs
on repeat. It's like this is a real upgrade. And then I've just been working outta my own home for the past year.
So like,
Eva: Wait, wait, wait, wait. And did you also, yeah, I mean, I think, I feel like listeners should
know the full scope of like the fiascos you've been through. Also you're, you're LA and then you had another office, which was really cute and all of a
set up, and then all of a
Kyley: that was the school office
was, that's a whole nother story that Yes. The, the landlord of the school. So like, not the one I rented it from. 'cause I was subletting and it was like a crazy person and [01:22:00] she got the building shut down 'cause she didn't, she didn't pay the electrical bill. And the one day I showed up and couldn't get in and my beautiful pink velvet coach couch was like stuck in the building for months.
And a bunch of my plants died. I mean, the
offices.
Eva: What a fiasco.
Yeah.
Kyley: Um, side note, it's real A DH ADHD travel year, but Desi tells Birdie these stories that he made up called Classroom Fiasco. And she's like, she'll be like, Desi, tell me another class from fiasco. And then he makes up stories
of just like
Eva: Oh, that is
Kyley: antics that happened in school of like bubbles taking over the whole school.
And they like crack
Eva: Oh my God, I,
Kyley: birdie will be like, this is real, right? Like she really needs him to like commit to it being a real story. And he's like, yes. And she'll be like, Desi, tell me another classroom
fiasco.
Eva: oh, that's
Kyley: It's
Eva: I'm just gonna see them cracking up
Kyley: they're laughing so hard. So anyway, that's what that word will forever mean to me now.
But anyway, I starting August 15th, so it's been a little over a month now. I started this, I like had picked it out, but I waited for the [01:23:00] summer to be over to, to have it. But I have my own whiteboard and I've got a beautiful view with a great tree and I can walk to coffee and
there's a lovely office
manager.
Eva: beautiful plant in
the back, which I
Kyley: Yes. That is the, that is a, an incredible monster. Who, okay, this is actually another good story. I had this incredible monster that I planted in this planter. It's a woman's face that I spray painted gold, put this really monster if you don't know everybody, it's like a very like kind of ostentatious plant. And I planted it and I did this whole like kind of ritual about how like this plant is kinda like the spirit of my business. And then I got locked into my office for three months and I was like, the spirit of my business is gonna die
Eva: Oh my
God.
Kyley: with like so much magic and it's just dying.
What is that witchcraft? But y'all, she bounced back.
She bounced back. Hey
Eva: Yeah. She's thriving.
Kyley: thriving. And she's like very, very much right now. She's like, yeah, 'cause I'm the spirit of your business and we are resilient motherfuckers.
Eva: Yeah. And also you be [01:24:00] thriving, so she's doing her job.
Kyley: Um, so anyways, I have had softs for a little over a month and it is just like so soothing to my creativity and my nervous system and it's so, so, so good to have just like this boundary place where I just get to totally focus on my work. Nothing else is in here that I don't want it to be in here. I don't have to, um, move Legos off the couch so I
could sit down and take a client call.
So
Eva: I mean, if you work for yourself or work from home, you know how important it is and what a luxury it is. Also, to have a stake grade, quiet, organized space to yourself,
Kyley: big deal.
Eva: it's a necess. It's, yes. Makes a huge
difference.
Kyley: that is my joy is, um, my office. I feel like I want it to be, it's my joy every day. I love it. I just love it so much. I've been secretly in my head calling it the wolf, the wolfden, like Virginia Wolf,
a room of one's own. So WOOL F's room.
Eva: Love it. Awesome. Yay. [01:25:00] I love our joys and I love being that we get to check in on what brings us joy every week. Anyway, listeners, we also love you so much and if we love your support, if you like the show, please leave a review, share it with a friend. I think this is a very topical episode that I think everyone could benefit from.
So share it with your loved