Doing what we do best…wrestling with self-love, self-forgiveness and the terror of unconditional love.
Doing what we do best…wrestling with self-love, self-forgiveness and the terror of unconditional love.
MORE: a money masterclass
Eva's instagram: @iamevaliao
Book a discovery call with Eva
Kyley's Instagram: @kyleycaldwell
Eva: [00:00:00] I'm Eva.
And this is our first ever in studio, in person,
Kyley: That's right,
everybody!
Eva
flew all the way here to Boston to visit me, and instead of
recording at my kitchen table together, which
we did consider,
we're at a fancy recording studio
with big ass mics.
Eva: Whoa, it's like actually amazing to be able to like see you in person as we're having this conversation.
We've been doing this for four years and this is like the real deal. It feels so much more like... Alive. I, could cry again. . Yeah. Aww. Oh
my
Kyley: So
I
picked up
Eva last
night at the airport
and
or the
airport shuttle.
And immediately upon hugging you, I was
like, you're taller than
I
remember
Eva: Well, it's because they had these boots on. And then I was like, oh my God, I can see your legs. And I, I just, everybody like, I went and like hugged her legs, , literally, oh my
Kyley: oh my God.
I can't
even imagine people getting off
the airport
channel looking
at us,
because we wouldn't
Eva: hugging. And then you were,
Kyley: were,
you
just hugged my
legs.
Eva: Cause I only [00:01:00] ever see you from the waist up, you know? I
Kyley: I understood what was happening. ass
Eva: understood what was we're very excited. We're very giddy. This just feels like such a wonderful way to bring in four fucking years of doing this thing that we love and cherish so much.
Kyley: and we have a very juicy, sexy topic for today that I am, I personally am very excited to just get all of my Eva wisdom about.
But before we do that, do you have anything you'd
like our
Eva: promote? Yes, Romos. Okay. So y'all, my life is changing. Lots of interesting, exciting things are happening and I have space for one more one-on-one client in the interim for all of this. So if it sounds like you are looking for some support in your consciousness, awakening, spiritual deep dive, hit me up.
I love working with people one-on-one.
Kyley: Yeah, it was going to change your life. So what are you waiting for?
Eva: Yeah.
Kyley: Um, and I will let you all know that, [00:02:00] uh, The, I have a new workshop coming on October 24th. It's called More, a Money Masterclass.
Eva: Love it. Oh my god, that's so
good. Yeah,
I know.
Kyley: Uh, it took a, it took a couple rounds, you know, and then I landed on it and I was like, oh, that's, cause the whole vibe was like thinking about how do we create the experience of more than enough and like the overflowing cup
Eva: And it's also
like okay to want
more.
Kyley: And
it's fucking okay to want more. And, um, and how do we give ourselves the experience of more? In all of the different iterations of it. So, that is a free workshop. It's coming on the 24th. Come, bring your friends, bring your neighbors. It's going to be great.
I
Eva: wait. Come
get more, baby. Come get more. Okay.
Kyley: Um, okay.
Eva: let's, let's, let's unload, unleash this topic, this week's topic for everybody, because it sounds like it's something that feels really, um, That you're really passionate about?
me.
Kyley: So even I regularly will chat [00:03:00] before an episode to say like, well, what should we talk about this week?
And, and every once in a while, there's just something that feels very present in one of our lives. And so this, the today's topic is just something that was like circling and then came in kind of loud. And I. Want some help unpacking. So I brought it to my most
Eva: Yeah, let's do
Kyley: Okay. So the thing that I wanna talk about is self-forgiveness.
And in particular, I wanna think about what is self-forgiveness? How do we know when we need to forgive ourselves? If we realize we do need to forgive ourselves, what are we forgiving ourselves for? And then like, how the hell do you
Eva: it? Yeah.
I think that's the trickier part, like the how.
Kyley: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. All those are
Eva: up questions, Yeah.
Kyley: right?
Yeah. Um, and to give a little context for why. So, um, I am part of this group. I call it my Will Group because my former mentor who passed away two years ago, um, the, his students, we still meet every other week. Um, and we will [00:04:00] pick a topic for like to discuss and share and unpack for three months. It's really, Uh, it's the most incredible community, um, and, uh, we're currently walking through grace and looking at and, and, and integrating and questioning about grace.
And, um, my friend from this group, Shannon, brought forward this exercise that Will had had us do a couple of years ago before he died, and, um, and it was about self forgiveness. And it's like these series of steps, which it would have been helpful if I brought the
Eva: notebook and
Kyley: that had the series of steps, but I did
Eva: so. We had a busy morning, yeah. I
Kyley: actually have a picture of it on my phone. So if we, we get stumped, we can go there. But, um, but we, we brought forward like, uh, it actually, and the exercise actually isn't about self forgiveness. It's about forgiveness. And it comes from, um, like the person who originated this exercise is someone who does like, Like, you know, peace negotiations, like in Palestine, [00:05:00]
you know,
Israel,
Northern Ireland, like, like places where you're doing fucking intensive forgiveness and
Eva: war. Yeah. In
Kyley: Um,
and, and so anyways, I sat looking through the, the questions, which again, I can read in a second. But. Um, initially I was thinking of external people and then immediately I just started to feel all the ways that I probably could apply these same questions to myself and what does that look like? And, and then ever since then, the question has just been, has been swirling.
Um, and so that's the like intellectual context backstory and emotionally I think I've been on a journey for a while now around. Intentionally, letting the people that love me, love me, essentially, right? And I've, I've watched and I've shared some on the podcast about how I think I have been surrounded by love for a long time.
But I have [00:06:00] not always actually fully let it in right and and I don't think I'm alone in that and I think that
Eva: Yeah, no, I think receiving love can be just as difficult as giving love, and vice versa, Yeah,
Kyley: hard I actually think you
Eva: a, well, I think it, I think it depends on what our trauma is, you know what I mean? Yeah.
But yeah, usually
that's where trauma will lead us to. It's this idea of like, it's, it's, I'm unworthy or it's not safe, or let me block out love because I don't wanna be vulnerable.
All the different
things. And
Kyley: I, and I think it should, can show up in like really subtle ways, right?
Because again, I, I am someone who is, is like very, I have like tremendous love in my life, right? And so I am not without love. And also I have watched, like I've seen in meditation before, this image of me and I'm like, I'm in an egg and the egg is just like this iridescent Kind of rainbow colored, like, kind of gorgeous light egg that is all of the love that is the people and the kind of universe loving me and then I'm [00:07:00] inside the egg not touching, right?
It's like the love is surrounding me but also I'm not letting it touch me. Yeah. Does that, do you, does that resonate? Do you understand what I'm speaking to
Eva: Um, I mean, I understand what it means to sometimes block out love. I mean, that visual I think is maybe unique to you possibly, or I don't know, but um, I don't I'm gonna put you in the hot seat because this is something that we've talked about so much But I don't actually know if I've ever specifically asked you like so wait, why do you think that is
Kyley: Well, well, I'm glad you asked that question too, because I think, I think this is, it feels important to speak to how I think this is a very, there's like nuance here where If I weren't paying attention, if I weren't, if I didn't have a practice of like sitting tenderly with my feelings and my heart and the subtleties of being alive, I don't think I would see
this. Yeah.
Right? Because I do have such a rich
Eva: I think you're only able to [00:08:00] see it because of your practices and because you're so aware. You're touching into something deeper that most people would probably, could possibly go through their whole lives without even questioning.
Kyley: and I definitely like, like I think most of my twenties was like, if you ask me my twenties like, yes, I am very loved. I have this very rich community and like great relationships with my family. But because of this, this kind of egg thing that I'm speaking to, a lot of my programming was that was about like constantly being in service of the people that I love in a way again, that was generous because I love, like, I love loving on my people.
The insidious part of it was that it also, in there was this belief that if I didn't keep performing, then I could, I could only, I could only receive as much as I was
Eva: given. Yeah. Or you could lose love. That's my, my story is that as I lose love is that. I'm like, wait, can I just let this person love me unconditionally?
And that feels really scary because essentially you're saying, yes, I'll let you in. But immediately my fear goes to, oh, and you could take that away [00:09:00] and I'm vulnerable or you could stop and then I'm fucked, you know? So that's where I get, that's where my heebie jeebies come
Kyley: in. Oh, that's fascinating. Yeah.
So,
and like the parallel I think for me is like, basically it's like, whatever I receive, I have to maintain. so if I let more in, then I have to maintain
Eva: Ohh, yeah, it's more work,
essentially. It's more
Kyley: It's like work, right?
Because it's, it's like this transactional. I can only have as much as I give. And so that's also part of why becoming a mom of two, I watched a lot of the pro, like the programming was working fine in my twenties because I love showing up for the people I love and I had lots of, I had, I had capacity to give as much as I was receiving.
And then my kids came along and it was like, Whoa, like it just all started to fracture, right? And, um, and so anyway, so I have been observing for a while this way in which, Yeah. Yeah. And to give specifics outside of that meditation, like, one of the ways it will show up is like somebody that I love will text me and my immediate, my knee, knee jerk reaction is that they will, they're upset and I've done something to, [00:10:00] that they're somehow disappointed and that the text is, I'm telling, before I've read anything and it's a knee, it's not a, Some of those things that I like, loop on, but it's present enough that it's the immediate like, Susie Q has texted me.
Oh, she's writing you to say that she's
Eva: mad
at me. Wow. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, that's very telling. Right. It's good. It's good to notice, you know, it's good to notice cause you're like, well, obviously there's something here.
Kyley: And I'm not very compassionate with myself when it happens, when it shows up. I'm like, is why you can't, this is why you push people. Like, this is why you push away intimacy, right? I get really it's not a, it's unsurprisingly, when this nasty thing comes in, I am not compat. It's like it just creates more knots. Um, anyway, all of this is to say I've been really lovingly tended to this in large part.
You walking through the self-love program that you and Federico ran this summer was a huge, oh my god, you guys fucking bonkers. Um, But I've been, I've been watching [00:11:00] that egg kind of disintegrate. I've been watching that, like, kind of sparkling light enter me more and more and more. And it's been really, really, really beautiful.
And when I was in my, my Will group the other day, I could see that the, like, that, because one of the things that's been really frustrating for me is this feeling of like, And I was like, what is the problem, Caldwell? Right? Like, like, just stop pushing it away. It's there. You see that it's there. Like just stop not
Eva: it,
Yeah, that's what we always say.
Kyley: just like knock it
off?
right? And anyway, in this group, I just could see that I was like, all of a sudden I could see that the thing that I have been unclear on. It's forgiveness. That there's this way that there's something, and part of it is, that's part of why I want to have the conversation, because I can't fully, it still feels murky, but it's like, [00:12:00] what is the thing that is keeping me from, quote unquote, knocking it off?
What is this thing that's keeping me from letting this love in? I think it's actually that there's some animosity towards myself that I just have to forget.
Eva: hmm. Yeah.
Kyley: uh, I don't think I know how to do that. let's
Eva: like you already touched on something really important.
My mind goes to like, so wait, what's the animosity? Right? Like, er, er, like we gotta go there. Like, basically you're saying you're giving yourself shit. Therefore, you can't forgive yourself, and if you can't forgive yourself, then you can't let the love in. So what are you giving yourself shit for? What's the animosity?
Kyley: mean, what comes up immediately? It's just like, well, it's just self loathing.
Right. And again, I also want to speak to like, all of this is like, there's such a subtlety right? And I think that feels important because I think an older version of me, in order to tend to these things, like self loathing would have to like, have a really dramatic, like [00:13:00] I would have to like. I would have to make my life feel terrible before I could admit that I was in self loathing.
Eva: Right, Because
you admit something's got to be, like,
wrong.
Kyley: Right, right. And so, yeah. So, um, I think, because I think before I answer that question, I think I have a question for you, which is, do you have a practice of self forgiveness or do you have an experience of when you realized that there was something you needed to forgive?
Eva: Yeah, I mean, that's a good question because, um, I think there are some times in our lives where, like, there's a specific, possibly traumatic experience that we think about. That, like, it's hard for us to get over and we, like, really have a hard time forgiving ourselves. And I haven't... You know, like, I can think of, like, maybe you put yourself in a compromising position and then you, I mean, I'm kind of going, like, trigger warning and going there, but, like, you put yourself in a compromising situation and then you get sexually assaulted, and then I feel it's really common to be like, I'm gonna, that, it was, you take on [00:14:00] responsibility and you blame yourself over and over and over again, and, like, it's really hard to just forgive that one instance.
Um, nothing like that comes to mind, however, When I think of self, like, self forgiveness, it's very much the same thing to me as, like, self compassion. It's the same thing. It's just extending kindness and understanding and love and gentleness to the parts of you that are, like, really suffering. So, I have experienced that.
What I've experienced many times actually is, and actually I just experienced this recently, is when I don't even see that I'm being an asshole to myself, which is I think what you're kind of speaking to. It can be shocking sometimes to, it's like, you know, I'm all about self love and yet there are these moments that are revelations where I was still unconscious to how I was condemning myself.
Yes.
And that
Kyley: what
I'm trying to speak to when I keep talking about being
Eva: Yes. It's
Kyley: like, Is like, you're going around thinking, Oh, look at all these, like I have this great self love practice.
And then all of [00:15:00] a sudden, and that's not, that's not false. And then also you were like, Oh, but shit, I'm also being
Eva: Yes. Yes. But like, to me, I'm like, when I see this, I'm like, woohoo. Right. Cause That, to me, is an example of more deeper awakening, like, because it's not that I don't love myself, but what's happening is I'm having more access. I have more access to see things clearly, to become even more free and more free and more free.
And as we talk about on the show all the time is it's unlimited. The depths in which we can be like completely awake and liberated are unlimited. So, so I hear you, what you're talking about with the subtlety, but it's also what I see is just a greater sense of overall awareness is what's happening. And that to me is.
So cool. Because, because we have to bring something from the unconscious to the conscious level to release it. Right. But I don't, like, that's, that's what this awakening process is. It's like, you can become more aware and more awake and more awake, but then there's always going to be another layer where you're even more awake.
And you're like, Oh, cool. I see. I'm just [00:16:00] continually undoing and doing and doing until I become nothing. Basically, it's like how I think it's kind of like,
I don't want to like, um, be so laissez faire or whatever, but sometimes when we get here the process can be fun because you're like, oh, I see, like, it's just an opportunity for more freedom.
Kyley: Yes. Okay. So intellectually I'm totally on board with that as we know. Yeah. But what's interesting is, in this instance, I, it's like, um, the image that I have is like the Austin Powers movie, where like he's like dri slamming his car back and forth in like the tiny wall, right? Because there's a part of me that's like,
And I'm like, bump, like bump, like bumping back and forth against. And you know, you have those moments where you're like, okay, I can look over the course of like the past year or a couple of years and watch how this particular pattern that I'm speaking [00:17:00] to around like really letting myself experience how much I am loved has like shifted and evolved so profoundly and also.
I can still see where, like, my nails are dug in, like, I am committed to keeping myself, like, withholding that experience, right? And, and I, I think if I'm totally honest, I'm, there's a part of me that's, that's just like, Pissed in my heart. There's like, like if I, right. Cause it's like, I've been in this pattern.
I've seen it. I've been like gently. And
Eva: What? Yeah, exactly. Rip the
Kyley: I'm just like, what is going on? Everybody loves you. Get over it.
Eva: over
Kyley: Like
Eva: You're just laughing because, like, how common and human is this? Like, we're just sick of our own shit, and we're just like, Dude, whatever, this is tired, this is played out.
But I actually think this is so great. I'm so happy you're speaking to this because I actually think that's, [00:18:00] That's the entry point.
Kyley: Oh yes, okay, I already have to interrupt you because what's immediately happening is that I just said like everybody loves you get over it and I am immediately like You're a narcissist,
Eva: Gang, all of
Kyley: is so navel gay, like all of the like, like, um, like we, that's exact, like, how like gross you're making people listen to your one hour episode about woe is me, everybody loves me, but I can't love my, wow.
Eva: so interesting because I didn't even notice that.
Kyley: Oh yeah.
Eva: Because what I noticed is just that there's suffering in that it doesn't matter if people love you, like, you're actually saying like, it's, you know. You're shitting on, you know, there's a way in which your, your, your ego anyway, not you, you, but the ego is shitting on the
self. Yeah.
Kyley: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I can, I can like actually feel now the like physical somatic response that like, it's, oh wow. Oh, I can actually feel this, like, it's gross to let yourself be like an actual, like. It's like disgust that's coming out, that's like, [00:19:00] yeah, whoa, like, okay, we
Eva: done.
Kyley: done.
Bye, everybody. Canceling the episode.
Eva: Bye everybody. Canceling the episode. Wait. Not so fast.
Not so easy. I mean, I mean, but basically, you're already speaking to this and I know that you know these, but like, this is what's so wonderful about having podcast. People who you can trust, like, I think part of it is also just the dialogue, which allows things to arise, you
know?
But,
you're already speaking to things that I think you can see, like, what's happening, and, and, like, You're, like, even this part about, like, being tired of it, like, you're, you know, sick of the story, Um, is blocking you from going in to, Like, healing and accepting the love, right? Because you're already like, No, I should be done with this.
I'm, I'm, I'm over it. I'm tired of it. And it's like, well, It's always the welcoming, right? It's the welcoming of like, No, let this in. Like, or even let in the me impatience. Whatever it is that [00:20:00] we're resisting is the thing. It's like Because that's just another way that you're blocking out love.
Right? This idea of like, Oh, I should be
done
with this. And I actually think, It's probably like a self
Kyley: Oh I'm I'm. Yes. 1000%. Uh.
Yeah, it's fascinating. I didn't feel this way until very recently. Like, I can actually feel, like, I'm like, We clearly cracked into something because I am physically, like, uh,
And it's interesting
Eva: to be in this space with you live as
you're feeling it. I know, I'm
Kyley: up at. Like, I can't even escape
Eva: No, yeah, exactly,
you can't
Kyley: at my eyes, not even through Zoom.
Eva: it's so intimate. It's
so intimate.
Kyley: like, yeah, yeah. So it reminded me, I did, when I was doing yoga teacher training, um, I, we had to do this, like one day we did this exercise where you would like sit and like, like, like we are like, you [00:21:00] know, cross legged, look at each other's eyes. And then you had to say, what was it?
You just had to, one person would speak and the other person would just like look at you with love
Eva: compassion. Yeah. Yeah. And
Kyley: and
I think it was like, I am statements or, I forget what it was, but it was something and it was. Super, super intense and you like went around the room and paired up with a whole bunch of different people.
And that's kind of what this is reminding me of is like,
Eva: just tell you, so, you know, I went on this retreat this summer and, I don't know, this is a bit of a tangent y'all, which, you know, we like to do, but there is something for me about the eyes, um, that I've been wanting to like intentionally practice more where at the retreat, you know, everyone becomes really open and you're really vulnerable and so you're really connecting.
And I just saw myself looking into people's eyes more deeply
And not,
not needing to look away. I didn't even notice before that I would sometimes. Like, look
away. And then noticing that I wasn't looking away and people weren't looking away from me and we were just talking [00:22:00] and looking into each other's eyes like, so intensely.
And I was like, I couldn't figure out what was happening. I was like, what? What is this? And I remember sharing it with people and someone was like, yeah, it's intimacy. Like, you're, it's intimacy. And then I shared this with someone else and I was like, uh, this woman named Saramaya who I'm like in love with and just like such a girl crush on and I was like Does this happen to you?
Like, are you looking into people's eyes? And she's like, well, I definitely fucking came here to look. It was such a
Kyley: It was such a good answer!
Eva: She's like, what do you think I'm doing here? Like I came here to look like, I think she meant like earth. Like I came to planet earth to look and I was like, Oh yeah. I'm, I want to be here to look like I'm here to look.
So, and it is interesting to see. Other people look away, too, because, anyway, yeah, I mean, this idea that, I think I've only just now, at 39 years of age, understood what people meant when they said, like, the windows, or the eyes, or the windows to the person's soul. So, anyway, now I get to [00:23:00] look gazingly, lovingly, look at your eyes.
Okay, but back to this thing about, like, forgiveness, though. But
Kyley: basically But also that wasn't I mean it was a very topical change too because that is the very that is actually the very thing I think I am also speaking to, which is like. The, and which I think is really actually very universal, right? This longing for intimacy and like a real
Eva: with
Kyley: with the vulnerable, like it's so vulnerable, right?
Like to be loved, whatever romantic friend, parent, child, to be loved is so vulnerable.
Eva: It's because like, of this thing of like, the thing that we want, the thing that we're scared of is also the thing that we want most, always. And it's actually scary because we want it, so it makes us vulnerable. And so therefore, basically I'm like, well, I can either be scared for my entire life or I, and not get what I want, or, or if I want, if I, if I'm going to like, Get what I [00:24:00] want at the end of this life, I'm gonna have to just fuckin suck it up and deal with the fear.
Cause otherwise, I will just go through life hungry.
Kyley: Yeah. Yeah. Well, yeah. And I think, I think in some ways this, like this journey that I'm speaking to is, you know, I have said many times on the show and, and it's how like you are always a great teacher for me on like receiving unconditional love.
And I actually think that that is. That, that's the, that's the pivot that's happening, right? Because the way that I was, have created and experienced love for so long is conditional in the sense that you give and receive in equal measure, right? And that, again, receiving requires giving. And to un, and, and, and that shows up for a lot of us in like.
You know, we talk, we talk about this in money a lot with like how much efforting you have to do. Right. And like you can, you, you hit this log jam where you don't have the capacity or willingness to effort more. And so you're like, well, that's it. I can't have any more. Right. And so, um, uh, [00:25:00] and, but we do the same thing.
Right. And so basically for me, when my kids were born, my efforting, my capacity to give. Um, outside of my nuclear family kind of eroded and therefore I shut off, I shut the receivers off
you know, um, that's an oversimplification because the universe like volcanically erupted into the middle of that.
But, but, but I think. Um, the vulnerability that I'm, but there's, there's a safety in that, right? So to this point of vulnerability, there's a safety in conditional love because I can also control how much I get,
right? It's like, okay, well I am giving 20 percent so I'll get 20%. And part of what I think is really scary about the vulnerability of unconditional love is that it's like.
Wide open, like the faucet just gets to, the faucet just comes on and I'm not actually in control. And it's interesting, you spoke to the fear that it will go away. And I think that's true. [00:26:00] But if I'm really honest with myself, I think there's also a fear of like, wait, can I just like, let this love come in without conditions?
And then it just keeps coming. Mm-hmm. like what? Like will I drown? See, I think it's like, it feels like water and it feels like this here of like, will I actually just drown?
Eva: Yeah. Okay. I love this. So you're like, I'm not in control. And I'm like, when you said that, I want to be like, yeah, you're right. You're not in control. And I want to be like, and if you were like a client of mine or whatever, we'd like to go into meditation, but I want to be like, for you and anyone listening, is like, just take a moment and like, let that in.
And like, like, Yeah, you're not in And what if we, like, welcomed in not being in control? I actually think it's scarier to resist and fight and, like, should constantly try and be in control. There's a space that I think each of us can touch into when we give ourselves space and quietude of, like, wait, [00:27:00] I can actually be okay with not being in control.
Like, I can welcome. Because that's the truth. Like, control. What if I allowed myself to not be in control?
Because, yeah, I just, be so... It's, that's the truth of reality, and every time we try and fight against reality, it's painful, and we And to your question about, like, well, what if it all overwhelms me? And that is where I think it gets juicy, because I think that's a perfectly valid fear.
And I would say there's only one way to find out, and that's through experience. That's through your own lived experience. So that's like a belief or a thought that you have that's, again, totally valid. It's like, whoa, the faucet's fucking turned wide open and all of this can come in and what if it like swallows me whole?
Which is like a theme that's come up [00:28:00] between us before, like, it's too much, it's gonna swallow me whole. And it's like, well... I think you just gotta like, it's like giddy
Kyley: up
Eva: try it on and see what your experience actually tells you. And I feel like I can say that to you because I feel confident that you're going to really quickly find out actually that you're not going to drown and that you're going to not just swim, but kind of float,
Kyley: Mm.
Eva: it's going to feel like a warm bath.
But. That's, that's, that's the vulnerable part. The vulnerable part is going into the place where you don't know yet if you're gonna float. And so it is a risk and um, yeah, you just, I think it's like taking that risk. But I have just found that every time we go towards like our heart's desire and what feels true and what we really want, it always serves that's where like trust
Kyley: Ah.[00:29:00]
As you're speaking, I'm getting this image of, like, again, it's, like, a lot of water imagery, and I'm getting this image of, like, Like a, levee in a dam, right? But it also kind of, the image in my head also feels like it's like a pin that you
pull here. It's like actually like, it's, it's holding, it's holding back all the water but it's also like as easy as pulling like a
Eva: can out of a garbage
can, you know? Yeah,
Kyley: you know? Um, but I think what feels, in this moment, I'm also feeling how much I mean, I can, I can feel things moving and shifting, um, but I can feel the part of me that almost doesn't want to or doesn't know [00:30:00] how or. It's like, you know those moments where you're, you're half immersed in the feeling of it and intellectually you can see it, but also it's like the pin is still there. Do you know what I'm trying to speak to? Yeah. And so I think this is where the like self forgiveness piece comes in.
And in some ways I don't fully even know how these two pieces go together also, but they just feel like they do. But like, it's like, I think I keep sitting here at the edge of this dam wanting to pull the pin, being afraid to pull the pin. And being confused.
Yeah, and I'm, yeah. I don't know. I don't know what my question
Eva: Yeah. I mean, so I sense it's like it's, I think it's just like res res, like what's, what's the, there's resistance and like, what's the pin and like, [00:31:00] 'cause essentially what you're saying is like, there's still the fear, right? Are you talking about the fear of like, if you let it in, it might, you might drown.
Kyley: Okay. Um, I think, I like this question of what's the pin, right? So basically, the pin feels like, um, It feels like the attachment to controlling how much love comes in. Right? The pin is control. And what am I trying to control? I'm trying to control how much can come in. And because I have a million stories of why, but the stories I can already feel are like just stories, right?
The like bigger thing is that the pin is there because I want to be in
Eva: Mm
Kyley: think I keep coming... to this, I keep, like, I keep coming back here, I mean, like, well, how do you not be
Eva: Yeah. Yeah. So I think this is where, I mean, I think there's a million different ways to do it for me. You know, I'm on this like Byron Katie, the [00:32:00] work kick. So for listeners who don't know, I'm, I'm like, uh, yeah, I've talked about Byron Katie before and how that her work has been really, um, Pivotal for me, but it's just really alive right now, and so this is one way
that
like, I think we can go into it.
It's just like, so how, like, what, what do you, so if I'm not in, like, so there's, okay. First question is, what are you afraid is going to happen if you're not in control?
Kyley: Okay. Can I, can I say something totally different? Yeah. What just came up? as you're saying that, is that I am using self loathing as
But like, that that's you can use
anything
Eva: control, Yeah. Uhhuh,
Kyley: right? Yeah. But, I don't know, maybe we're always using self loathing for control? I don't know.
Eva: But oh, I think that's such, that's such a good point. Essentially it's the same thing as like worrying. Mm-hmm. , It makes us feel like
we're doing something, you know?
And or self-loathing is a way for me, I feel like I'm being responsible in a way. 'cause I'm not like letting myself get away with anything, or I'm checking [00:33:00] myself or like, it's some way to like be more self-aware or I think I'm bad and so therefore it's that. Yeah, I gotta check myself.
Kyley: Yes! Yes! Like, okay, I'm just gonna give another example. I'm just like, swing away from the esoteric for a minute.
But like, what, in addition to one of the things I'll do, which is if someone that loves me and that I love will text me and I immediate is like, oh, they must be disappointed. The other thing that I will do is someone will message me, and if I don't have capacity to answer within like, Uh, three hours.
Mm-hmm. , I immediately start like the debt
Eva: clock.
Yeah.
Be and like, what, why and why, like, what do you think that's gonna do? Right. There's a reason that we do that.
Kyley: Yeah. Because I, yeah, because I, I, I don't know. I think I'm, I think I'm bad, right? And I gotta earn, I gotta like, it's like, it, it's like I'm, I don't wanna intellectualize this in a way that pulls me away from what, from feeling, right. 'cause that's easy for me to do, but I think. That I am afraid that [00:34:00] I'm, you know, a piece of shit, right? And that I have to, like, constantly be efforting to basically, to make up for, it's like the, the, the, this, the default setting is bad.
And then I have to, I have to make up for that. And so if three hours go by and I haven't responded, I'm already... even more. I guess I'm just like, I'm starting in debt and then I'm just like digging myself deeper into debt. And then it's tremendously hard to like reach out in intimacy from that place of.
Eva: debt.
Yeah. But I think what's interesting, and this isn't just you, this is, like, everybody. Basically, any time we, like, criticize ourselves, and I see this so clearly in myself, is we're doing it because we think it gives us the illusion that it's an effective way to give us the outcome that we want, meaning there's this illusion that if you are condemning yourself and you're hard on yourself, somehow you'll whip yourself into shape.
Because you have to be like, hey, Caldwell, get it [00:35:00] together, and then finally you'll be that perfect friend who responds in five minutes. Like, it's, it's, yeah, I mean, it's the illusion, but there actually is that logic there. That's like kid logic, almost, or ego logic. But, or it's like, um, yeah, it's like we can't let ourselves get away with something.
But the, the thing that's actually, I think, very clear is if we just really looked and it doesn't take that much, we would see that it doesn't work. It's, it's never worked and you just, again, your experience is the most valuable thing. Like, everybody listening, run that through your own system. Like, when has condemning yourself actually worked long term and, and in like a helpful way?
Um, yeah, I don't know, in my experience, never, never. But there's a reason that you do it though, it's like, and that's like your way to control and like protect and all that stuff. So.
Kyley: I also, what's coming to my mind is that the self forgiveness thing is like coming into a little bit sharper. [00:36:00] clearer focus, which is that the thing that I need to forgive myself for being fucking Because I think the, if the, the, the, the anxiety is a piece of shit, then we gotta constantly like earn back to neutral. And then every time I'm a human who's messy, right? Every time I'm a human who doesn't answer her text in three hours. 'cause like, um, This is like, also just super not who I am capable of being.
That's not the, that's not the, like, That's not the, um, model I come in. I was talking to a good friend of mine just the other day. Also about some of these things, uh, and, and she was sharing about her business and both of us have ADHD and we were laughing that like, consistent isn't a model we come in.
Eva: Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Kyley: Like, like, uh, big red gestures, like I am your girl, right? Like all in enthusiasm, like, yes, but consistent, [00:37:00] consistent isn't, consistent is actually like not a thing I do.
Eva: Oh, and that's so to me. also, like, that is also, consistency is also just like an illusion. I mean, I just, even hearing that Like, I think I can be consistent, but, but, but it's just interesting to hear that from somebody else because I'm like, um, that's just a value that I think is propped up in our society as like, that's a, as if that was like a real thing.
But it's like, we, we like really, um, celebrate consistency as if someone who is consistent is somehow better than someone who's quote unquote not consistent. And that is also just. bonkers and bananas to me because Those things aren't real like we're just people and doing things in our own patterns and our own rhythms and our own time and then we put a label on It as this is how it should be and then this is how it like shouldn't
Kyley: Yeah I mean it's funny too because I literally like coach about consistency all the fucking [00:38:00] time and like one of the big things in like business coaching for me is like Like, there's no such thing as consistent, like, and every single person I know, people come to me all the time and they'll say like, well I just need to be more consistent.
I've never heard someone say that when they're not being an asshole to themselves. Like nobody says I need to be more consistent from a place of like, genuine, like a genuine vision for how they want to be in the world. Always just meanness and like the, like, story of failing, um, and I think, I mean, I think what's coming to my mind right now is, so this was the exercise, um, that we, um, this was the exercise that we did in class.
So, these are the questions, uh, about forgiveness. Is there someone in your life that if you forgave them, your life would be radically And what is it costing you in your life to withhold that forgiveness? [00:39:00] This is your homework assignment,
Eva: I was going to say, like, those are some good questions, dude. Yeah, like, really think about
Kyley: Right? Like, is there someone That your life would radically improve if you forgave them, and what is it costing that forgiveness?
Eva: yeah, can you like send this to me later?
Kyley: Mm hmm, absolutely.
Eva: I think that's the, you're kind of alluding to this earlier, like how, sometimes we don't even know that we need to forgive, we don't know that we're holding on. Yes. Yes, and so this question I think can be a good way to see where we're holding on where we
Kyley: not. Oh yeah, like immediately when I did this, like when I read this question, I've done this before, but this time around I was like, oh, my biological dad, fuck. So yes, uh, and then I was like, oh, or me, even more of a fuck.
So,
Eva: so
Kyley: so then once you see that, that first part clearly, that the step is basically, are you willing to give that forgiveness? And this question is speaking to Your intention and your ability to decide that you will forgive because to this point in this whole conversation like there [00:40:00] is all this resistance Right.
So if I use this exercise of like I would like to forgive myself for being Wildly inconsistent and I would like to forgive myself for being a friend who has needs right? I think it's like it's like right, you know messy human and Am I willing to decide, because I have all this resistance, so I'm willing to decide to kind of commit to forgiveness even though there will be resistance.
Then the next question is, are you willing to give that forgiveness totally, meaning the whole shebang, not like I give myself forgiveness for like not texting people back, but then I just have to make sure I see them
Eva: more
Kyley: often, right?
Are you willing to give it absolutely? So, uh, meaning indefinitely. So are you willing to give forgiveness, but not like, okay, I've forgiven myself, but also you can never do
Eva: again, Right,
Kyley: right?
Are you willing to give forgiveness indefinitely?
Eva: Yeah, without a catch, without a, yeah. Mm
Kyley: And then are you willing to give it unconditionally? So are you willing [00:41:00] to give yourself or this other person forgiveness for this thing? Uh, for all things, across all time, regardless of everything.
Eva: Whoa. Wow. That's beautiful. Actually, when I hear that, I'm like, whoa, that's, that sounds like it could be a big task. And also, I'm like, wow, imagine all the freedom at that. That's what I felt. I was like, whoa, what if I could forgive?
And I don't, there's no one really who comes to mind, like, usually, you know, we go back to our parents and I'm sure there's stuff there. But I'm like. What a gift I could give to myself. Like, imagine all the abundance on the other side of that where I didn't have to carry a load anymore. Yeah, I'm like, that sounds awesome.
Kyley: Yeah. Right?
Eva: Yeah.
Kyley: Like, and I've been sitting with this for, like, for the week now. And so it's interesting watching how, like, the first time I looked at those questions, I was just like, oh, shit. Right? And like, like watching it [00:42:00] evolve. And I think exactly what you said, like, man, imagine how sweet life would be if I actually gave
Eva: And I can hear the people out there with a very valid question of like, cause I think oftentimes we think forgiveness is a pass. Like people are like, well, what's hard about forgiveness is that we don't want to condone something that might've been like truly fucked up. Right. And so I don't know.
I think there's... It's a way to forgive. It's not a condoning, but it's like a forgiving? I don't know. What do you
think about that?
Kyley: well, I think a couple of things. One is, if we're talking about somebody else, I think that's where, well, first of all, I think this is where it's helpful to ask yourself, like, what is it costing me to right?
Because then you can see, well, like, is what I am sacrificing? work. I mean, it's another person, right? And it's like I'm withholding this forgiveness because [00:43:00] I don't want to give them a passport because they did something truly terrible. And then it's like but what am I losing by holding on this? And is it worth it?
And then I also think when we're talking about ourselves like well, I also think the other people is that listen. Forgiveness and boundaries don't have to be the same thing. You can forgive someone and never let them in your
Eva: life
again. Oh, yeah, totally. You don't even let them, you don't even need to
know. Yeah,
Kyley: You never have to speak to them again.
Like, I've done this exercise with someone that I have no interest in ever interacting with ever again, right? But I, I can let go of the way that I have, I, I was holding on to. Very fucking legitimate. And, and, and stuff. So, so it doesn't have to be unboundaried. But then I also think for ourselves, because that's where I think the question is like, how can I give myself, like, right?
If it's like, if I, because what I'm sitting with, okay, if I give myself a pass for being like a quote unquote flaky friend, which I can also see is [00:44:00] hilariously not true, but you know, also feels like the anxiety, um. If I can give, like, if I forgive myself for that, then, like, am I indulging an unkind behavior, right?
Am I, like, allowing myself to, like, be a monster, and then will I cause harm and be unlovable? Like, basically, like, if I don't withhold love for myself, will I become
Eva: I, mean, and as you say that I'm like, Well, fuck, no wonder we're suffering. Not you, but this is the trap that so many of us are in because either way, we're fucked, basically, it sounds like.
It's like, look at the trap that we've put ourselves in.
Kyley: Yeah. If I, I have to hate myself to make myself loveable, is basically... I'm like sincere. All of a sudden it's like the dust cleared. And it's like, that's the operating logic we're all running
around with?
Eva: yeah.
That's the math that we are running. And, but I, and I think...
Like really sit with that for a second and like, Oh, like I've had moments [00:45:00] like that where I'm like, Oh, wait, I, that's how I, that's how I think. Um, like the universe is like the universe isn't like it just doesn't make sense to my my like heart because I know the universe is not that unkind and not that unjust and so it's actually helpful when I see how out of line that is with what I actually believe in my heart because I'm like essentially when I have that belief like I have to be an asshole to myself in order to receive love or or all of like in all of these ways that are a conundrum I'm like oh essentially what I think is like this is a really scary, shitty universe, like, and I'm being punished and it's, I'm in hell.
Because that's what hell is. It's like, it's like a trap that you can never get out of. And when I see that clearly, I'm like, I don't I don't, I think, I think that is a hell that's created in the mind. Heaven and hell are in the, are in the mind and I'm creating that hell [00:46:00] and I can question Yeah.
Oh, and first of all, seeing it is half the battle, because you see how illogical that is. It's an illusion, and that we are all living in these huge illusions. And something, again, a Byron Katie thing that she said that's been so helpful for me recently, I, it was in one of her books, she was talking about like, you know, people say that she's like an enlightened being and blah, blah, blah.
She's like, I don't think I'm enlightened. I'm just someone who really sees the difference between what hurts and what doesn't. so simple. I'm like, to be enlightened is just to see clearly and to choose, like, what, to choose between what hurts and what doesn't hurt. And that's it. It's like, it hurts to see the world this way.
And I can choose a different way.
Kyley: Well, and one of the questions that I know you that is like central in Byron Katie's work is the is this true?
And so right now, I'm also sitting with like. Okay. If this, if the like story under the story under the story under the story is if I don't hate myself, I'll become unlovable, right? Or if I don't like control with self [00:47:00] loathing, then I'll become unlovable. And I can ask the question, I'm like, is that true?
And of course, immediately. And that what feels really great is like, you know, Austin Powers car style. Like, I feel like I've been budding against this and all, and I do, I can see something cracking in this way that I am, I knew what happened
Eva: I
Kyley: brought this to you, but it's like, Of course that's not true, right?
Of course it is not true that if I stopped, like, trying to control myself with self loathing then I would become a of course that's not true
like
Eva: And like, really letting that in, you know? Because it's like, it's, when we, when I ask myself if something is true because I'm questioning the nature of reality, it's like, I can do it from an intellectual place, and then there's a secondary thing where I'm like, oh, okay, see, that's not true, and then actually
Kyley: that.
Feel.
Eva: That that is, like. It's not true. And then it becomes more of an embodied thing where you're like, wait, wait, oh my God. It's like, that's what I mean by clear seeing. You're like, oh my, I do this, I, like, I have my hands over my eyes. I'm like, oh my God, I see this clearly. It's not [00:48:00] true. And then once you're like, once you see it's not true, you're just open.
And what you're saying is like, well, I'm open to, I'm just open, I'm open to a different way.
Kyley: Yeah, it's like I'm seeing, it's fascinating because it's like I'm seeing the tool that I was using and I'm seeing like, it's like I've been building a house with a teaspoon.
Eva: a
Kyley: you know what I mean? Like, it just doesn't actually make any sense. Like,
Eva: Yes,
And
when we see that we're crazy, that's when we become insane. Because we are all fucking insane. Like, we're moving around the world truly with insane logic. And then, and then we wake up and then become more sane. And we see actually how bananas it was that we were all running around like, you know, chickens with their heads cut off.
Like, that's... Yeah, it's, it's funny and it's also liberating.
Kyley: Oh my gosh. This is just like. I knew, I mean, there [00:49:00] was no way that we weren't going to have an in person, in a studio episode and it wasn't going to like, just like, blow my mind, but also, and I knew that bringing this to you would be exactly the whole thing I needed, but.
Ah.
Eva: Well, I mean, and I'm so excited about this conversation because, you know, it speaks to so many things that I, you know, have, you know, I'm all, you know, always going through and experiencing, but like, I think my question, do we, did we get to like, so I feel like there were so many, there are moving parts in this conversation and you were talking about, um, let me see if I can, let me see, test my summarization skills.
Kyley: That's a tall order for our rambly ass journeys.
Eva: okay. You were saying, yeah, you need to forgive yourself so that you can let love in. And so basically what we just touched on is this idea of condemning yourself isn't working. So like, we can, we can see that clearly. And so, what if, [00:50:00] right, so now we're back to this forgiveness piece. It's like, I think we need to debunk the myth first for us to let something else in.
And the thing is, like, okay, so if we can actually clearly see that that's not true and that's actually not working, Then, what if I forgave myself? And, what would be possible, I guess, if I forgave myself? And I think originally it was this idea of like, well there's a fear? That, that would be, essentially what we're saying is if we're nice to ourselves we're going to be a monster.
And,
Kyley: Which is like...
Eva: insane.
Kyley: But I think that's
Eva: Like,
I
Kyley: don't think I am singular
Eva: this. Oh no, everyone
Kyley: think that like, actually, we are all walking around thinking like... If I am really, really, really nice to myself, terrible things
Eva: happen. Yeah,
or, the other one is if I'm free. I can't trust myself.
If I'm actually, because it's just the thing that we want more than anything else in the world, y'all. Like, this is the, this is what spiritual awakening is. It's debunking... All the falsehoods, yeah, yeah, yeah, [00:51:00] to keep ourselves safe, yeah. And and so now it's like, okay, so the forgive, the forgiving piece is like, hmm.
Kyley: I mean, oh, go ahead.
Eva: Uh, okay, so now we know what it feels like to not forgive yourself.
And I kind of want to just play around with the space of like, what would happen if... What would happen if you forgave yourself for not texting back in three
Kyley: Oh, immediately I feel very
Eva: uncomfortable.
Kyley: But I think, I think, I think what I can feel is that it's like a, okay, I think I want to like give my body a moment to sit with, that the operating sit, like the thing under the thing is this logic that self loathing is protection from becoming unlovable.
Eva: unlovable.
Kyley: And I think I want to give that actually like, it's like, um, It's like a, like a [00:52:00] water balloon, you know, like broke over my little garden.
And I kind of want to give that a chance to like get all the way into the soil because I think then the forgiveness is actually like, that's the pin that comes out that draws right out effortlessly.
Eva: so
Kyley: So I think I can feel already, I can feel the big shifts, but I think I need. To like let that soak in so that I no longer have that story and then forgive there's no effort to the forgiveness
Eva: Yeah.
Kyley: because I think that's the other thing You know, we've, we've loved that phrase that Leah Garza gave us early on in the show about you can't white knuckle surrender.
And I think I've also been trying to like white knuckle forgiveness without always knowing that that's what it was. But like some kind of like just get over it already and Um, and like trying to be compassionate but, and, and being compassionate. Anyways, but I, I can feel right now the like [00:53:00] assignment so to speak is actually just Let myself see clearly this self loathing as protection unlovable for the falsehood that it is, and in its opening, watch this, the kind of blossoming.
And then, then I think forgiveness is the inevitable outcome.
Eva: Yeah. Or there'd just be nothing to.
Kyley: Right, because there's an illusion to begin with, so how, you don't even have, yeah, right.
Eva: Yeah. Okay. I mean, there's just so much here and yeah, I want to let that just seep into the soil and I think there are like other ways, deeper ways that we can like take this, but we, I want to go back to actually something you spoke about
earlier. You were talking about how. Okay, so there's this theme of, like, the thing that we want the most is actually also, like, [00:54:00] the scariest, you know.
Kyley: mm hmm.
Eva: And we were talking about vulnerability, oh yeah, and like, what was it, something about letting love in? Anyway, it reminded me of all of these conversations that I've been having recently, but also I think is just alive for our times. And I don't know if this is just our generation of like millennials or what, but this idea of we are all hungry for community and more intimacy.
But it's also such a fucking pain in the ass, or we have this a sense that it's a pain in the ass. And so therefore it's scary or it feels overwhelming, so we don't do it and then we feel isolated. Does that sound like,
Kyley: like,
Yes, oh, totally
Eva: I
mean, that's very much, you know, you know that I've been on this quest for community, which is why I moved to Austin in the first place.
And I wanted to like, you know, and I was looking at living in intentional communities. And that's also difficult for someone who's who previously has always. Identify it as a introvert
because I
like love my alone time. I need my safe space. So it's [00:55:00] like How do I get that need met without feeling overwhelmed by People and I think I just I feel I know a lot of people fucking feel this way I've had again, it's come up with like multiple conversations with people that I know but also Honestly, like, what I see on the internet.
Like, if there's a meme about it, there's a good chance that it's a popular culture thing. And there's memes where people are like, I want to be invited to everything and go to nothing. You know? Or there's also memes about, like, how it's this opposing thing. It's like, I want nothing more than to be close with people, but I want nothing less to have to expose myself to people.
Like, that kind of thing.
Kyley: Well, and I think some of that is the... is the, um, is, is very connected to the thing that I was feeling of, of like, if I don't text back in three hours, then, uh, I'm, um,
Eva: then,
Kyley: like, I'm a bad friend, [00:56:00] which is this sense of basically like love as burden and intimacy as responsibility, right? So it's like, if I let someone in.
Um, what will I be asked to give and will I be asked to give more than I can or am capable of? And I think one thing that we do is that we, like, ignore our boundaries or have trouble stating our boundaries or what I have been doing for a while now is I feel really guilty about my boundaries, right? It's like someone, they're not even asking for something, they're just like showing up to say hi, right?
And I don't have the capacity for that. But instead of, and I've heard, I was like, someone who's very dear to me, I have like, Really tremendously hurt actually, because I, I felt so guilty that I couldn't show up mm-hmm. , that I would just
Eva: disappear.
Kyley: Mm-hmm. , right. And, um, and that like, it's like basically the self-loathing, the, the thing that was trying to keep me from hurting people is the thing that caused harm, which is like, you know,
Eva: pretty
Kyley: [00:57:00] familiar pattern for a lot of, like, you know, that shows up a lot.
But I think in some ways I'm thinking about how the antidote to what you're speaking to is, what if your, like what if your, you saw your needs as like blessings and like these sacred things that you felt like cherished and honored to meet so that you were at a social thing for 40 minutes and you were like, Oh, my battery, my social battery's done.
And you had like zero angst about being like, okay, I'm going to leave. I'll see you all later. Yeah. Then, like, if you felt, if we all felt totally free to know what we need and honor what we need and not feel guilty about what we need, then maybe intimacy would be
less
Eva: scary. Yeah. Less scary. Yeah. But I think what's hard for most people is, they're like, okay, that sounds great, I would like to do that, but I don't know how to do that yet, and then we step over our boundaries and then we end up staying like, [00:58:00] whatever, all night until we're drained and exhausted and then we go home and then we're mad at ourselves because we're like, see, I can't fucking do it.
And the point that I want to make... is like, no, no, no, like, that's exactly how it's supposed to go, you're practicing, like, you practice and, and then through experience also learn, like, how to get better. So I think this to me feels like a callback to what we were saying earlier, where I, where you were like, well, I'm afraid that if I, if the faucet's wide open, if I let love in, like, I might, I'm, I'm not in control and then I'll be like, overwhelmed.
And I don't know why this feels like a parallel, but it's also this idea of like, we think. It's going to be really, really scary and really, really hard and sometimes I think what's going to happen is we're going to see that actually it won't be as scary as we thought it was. And sometimes it's going to be like, oh wait, no, no, no, this is challenging and good because I'm here to learn how to meet these challenges so that I can actually get what I need, which is community.
So yeah, I am going to feel tired sometimes at first because I don't have this capacity or the skills yet to know how to communicate my needs. Or yes, I am going to be [00:59:00] awkward. I think people are afraid of feeling like awkward. I'm trying to think of like people I know and like how they feel. And it's like, or I'm going to be exhausted because I care about what people think or like all the things.
And I'm like, yeah. And then, but if you want community. Um, like move forward as if you're practicing all of this stuff. And I think I can say that from experience now because even in just my little experience in Austin and it was just me and Eliza, I already learned so much about myself and dealt with uncomfortable situations where we had a conflict and there were tears and, and, you know, and I, and I was feeling uncomfortable and I was like, Oh, this is why I like, you know, socializing or whatever these things are like can be difficult.
And then. And then seven months later, I look back and I'm like, Oh, wait, that was just me training for the marathon. Like I got stronger, like, or I learned these skills and the things that bothered me like six months ago, don't bother me anymore. I'm like, Oh, I improved. So I guess it's like saying like, we have to like, I'm really feeling passionate about the sense of like, the thing that we [01:00:00] want most is also the thing that's the scariest but also let's move towards the thing like, because like, or otherwise, the choice is to live, live a limited life.
And We don't want
Kyley: oh, I really love the way you're speaking to it as practice, and I'm just thinking about, like, yeah, like, we can't, Like, we can't just pop out, I mean this is more babies, but like, as, as the like, exquisite dysfunctional late thirties people that we are, right?
Eva: alright?
Kyley: Like, you can't just like, be vulnerable, like that's such an exceptionally tall order to just be like, I am nailing.
Eva: boundaries,
Kyley: with boundaries and perfect presence all the time. Like, of course it's
Eva: Oh my God, that's so funny. And then isn't that perfectionism, right? And then where we're like, Oh, and then I didn't get it wrong. So then I feel ashamed and I crawl into a hole.
I'm like, I'm never going to do that again. And it's like, no, no, no. Like you're, let's, let's fuck it up a little bit. Let's just be so awkward for a while and build up our capacity to be with that discomfort. [01:01:00] And, Oh, I'm like, I get jazzed and excited. I'm so excited for myself, honestly, because I'm like, Oh, I see.
I put myself in this situation where. It's just like learning any other skill and if you've ever learned a skill, whether it was biking or like, I don't know, I go to physical things, but like running or swimming and you just build it. There's a moment where it kind of sucks and you suck.
Kyley: Yes. and
Eva: then you get better and better and stronger and stronger playing any instrument or whatever.
And I guess it doesn't mean you're doing it wrong.
Kyley: Oh, I also really love this because Desi has started first grade and this past week we had our first conversation that was about like, The confusion of like all the kids and friendships and frenemyships and like, just like by
Eva: the beginning,
Kyley: nature of like all, you know, there's like 25 kids in a classroom and who are you with all these people and, um, and he's already getting like really, really great friendships in a way that's very sweet, but yeah, it was like just watching his. it's practice, right? [01:02:00] And, um, and for all that I would, on some level, love to just like scoop him up and make it so that no one's ever mean to him ever, I also don't want that for him because that's not, that's actually not real intimacy and he is learning how to be, how to create intimacy on his own terms with his friends and it is a little bit of practice and trial and error.
And also, if this blonde kid keeps being mean to him, I might get in a fight with a first grader. We'll find out. Stay tuned.
Eva: keeps seeing me for him, I think we're coming towards the end where we maybe want to start moving into Joy. Okay, yes, actually, I remembered one thing before we move into Joy as we end every episode. Um, we're doing our first Q& A. Yes! Or advice column style episode, right? Yeah. You want to say more about that?
Kyley: I have a secret obsession with advice columns. Like I still read them all the time. I read a career, like a corporate career advice column every single week. I haven't been in a corporate career for [01:03:00] four and a half years, everybody, but I love a good
Eva: advice
column. Me too. I'm a big fan of Dan Savage. a list of
Savage love? Oh yes.
Oh my
Kyley: Captain Awkward is another great one. Oh yeah. Highly recommend it. So we want to become an audio advice column once a month or some, we don't know how often we're just making this up as we go along. Send us your, send us your juicy, hot goss situation in which you want
Eva: and care. Oh my god,
yeah, send us the goss.
The goss is good. Like, for me, originally, I was like, send us your existential, mysterious questions about spirituality. And Kaya's like, no, give us the gossip. I'm like, oh, yeah, yeah, yeah, we want the gossip. Like,
Kyley: yeah, yeah. Like, are you and your roommate in a passive aggressive war about, like, who keeps finishing off the milk? I want that.
Eva: yeah, exactly. Or, like, is there some, like, sexy polyamorous situation
going on? Oh, yes. But then, like, on the side, I don't know, there's something confusing happening? Yes. Yes.
Send us all of it. Um, yeah, so you can DM us, that's, email us, whatever, all the things, and we would love to feature you.
You can be anonymous, you can leave whatever name you want.
yeah, Okay, great. So let's, that's, that's coming up. And, ooh, can I share my joy? Because [01:04:00] I have one locked and loaded. Okay, so obviously I'm here in Massachusetts, visiting Kylie and, like, getting to stay with her family, which feels like so fun.
Freaking huge, honestly, like that, that's like a really big part of like being able to see your life and, you know, I've seen your life in snippets here and there and like, I don't know, just like I get to, like, I get to smell your home, you know, I get to like hear the noises of your house and the thing that stole my heart away is I'm sharing a room with Birdie.
Uh, Kylie's youngest. Oh my god, last night was insane. She woke up, so she did like have a little bit of a nightmare. She had like a little cry. And you told me that this would happen, and I was like, Hi! Hi! And I was like, right, like, you know, below her. And, and... I was like, do you want to come and snuggle with I just like lifted up my blanket and she do what do you want to like come in with me and she just like goes like and just like touch it right under my arm.
And I was like, I can't believe it. Like I can't believe how sweet [01:05:00] and open she is. Because that's I mean, there's some kids. Oh, I don't know. I guess my experience mostly is like kids can be kind of shy or Whatever she'd like.
I
Kyley: Mine don't come in a shy mode. Really? . Yeah. Like
she
Eva: obviously knows who I am, but it's also, she's never met me and we just had like the best cuddles all night and we had like a little bit of like chatting throughout the night and then this morning we were just chatting and it was just these things that you've created Kylie, two fucking miracles.
They're amazing.
everybody,
Kyley: because
I was like, oh, we gotta get ready for school And Birdie and Eva are like sitting on the bottom bunk, like snuggled up, just like chatting away. Birdie helped me make the bed the night before, before you even got in and was like, so excited about which pillowcase to pick.
It was like a whole, she was plotting for those snuggles for a
Eva: minute, I got to like snuggle with your, she's four years old, yeah, with your four year old. And she's just so freaking cute, and both of your kids are just divine, and anyway, we'll gush more about that. But anyway, that is definitely a huge joy for me, [01:06:00] yeah,
Kyley: Uh, yeah. I mean, same. My joy is, uh, my, which is such a beautiful irony and like capstone to this episode is like, my joy is being loved
Eva: Mm. Yeah.
Kyley: because even shows up also.
So Eva is here. I will also share that my, one of my college roommates came and spent the entire month of September in my town. They rented an Airbnb a few minutes away and spent an entire month with me. So I have been in like a true abundance of friendship and like, and this very thing, I mean, this is one of the things that I fucking love about magic and this like spiritual journey is like, I have been on this intentional journey around like allowing myself to be loved and What's happening.
Oh, the universe, like Ray was laughing, Ray was like, it's like you set send up the bat signal to like, have like closer friend love. And it's like the universe like
Eva: started
Kyley: dumping, you know, because like you were here, my cousin who I love is in [01:07:00] town, like Ray is here, Ray and Eva, like overlapped by six hours and their stay like, it's just this like really Like, the definition of abundance, to have, like, these really special people who live far away, like, here, in my house, enmeshed in my life, snuggling my kids, like, helping me make breakfast for them, like, just, the whole thing is just, feels, first of all amazing, and special to be able to, like, squeeze your hand, and also feels, like, like the universe kind of, like, laughing
at me,
like. You can have whatever you want, baby. You want your friends? Here you go. Like, what do you, what else do you want? You know, you want more friends? They'll come in. You know, it like really feels like this kind of like, like, yeah, this very like tongue and cheek joyful. You got it, girl. What else do you want? And, um, and I feel, yeah, I feel.[01:08:00]
And I will also say, it also, it's very special to be loved by you. Eva shows up at my house. My house is perpetually
Eva: mess.
Kyley: And Levi's just
Eva: like,
It's also not, okay hold on, by the way, it's also not that bad. I just want to say that. Disclaimer, I'd be like, I was expecting, the way that you talk about it, I was expecting to see like,
Kyley: like explosion.
Like a hovel. It's basically
Eva: just, it's any house that has two small kids, like, that's what it looks like to me.
That's totally fair.
Kyley: fair. But like, uh, yeah, you just like came in and were like, your house smells so nice. And like, I don't know who doesn't have a little bit of like, no one knows what their house smells like. So like knowing my house smells like homey and like the way you want it to feel.
And like, I don't know, just like your glee and delight. At like, you know, hanging out with my kids and like you and Nick being friends. Like, I just, I feel, huh. It's a very special, delicious blessing to be in the radiant love of an
Eva: evil gas.
Aww, thank
you very, very much. Yeah, I'm soaking it in because I said I've, I've teased listeners that changes are happening and I [01:09:00] might be on the move again. And so you'll hear more about that. But, um, yeah, that's why I'm really just soaking it all
Kyley: in.
Yeah.
Eva: Sigh. Alright, y'all. Ah! Our first ever in person. This was so great.
Yeah. Um, I love you.