Power is complicated—often seeming like a thing people used to hurt others. But as we discover this week, the truth of power is, for Kyley & Eva, actually tied to silly fun and creative expression. How can we tell the difference and how can we step into power that is generous?
Power is complicated—often seeming like a thing people used to hurt others.
But as we discover this week, the truth of power is, for Kyley & Eva, actually tied to silly fun and creative expression.
How can we tell the difference and how can we step into power that is generous?
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Eva: [00:00:00] hi everyone. I'm excited to start this conversation about what is power, what does it even mean to be powerful? Something I feel sometimes confused about.
And I wanna talk to you, kyley, 'cause I feel like you probably, yeah. I feel like you've thought about this. So, but,
but before, before we do that, why don't you tell us what you wanna share with our lovely listeners?
Kyley: well, the thing that's very funny is that this is not planned, but the thing that I have to share with people is actually directly related to the question that we're gonna talk about today, which is, uh, this current moment, [00:01:00] uh, of political crisis, especially in the United States, where like there's so much suffering.
There's people's, you know, the world's on fire, right? And I've been thinking about a lot of us who are, those of us who are business owners and. How do we build our businesses in a way that actually has an impact towards building the world that we wanna live in? Like to have a business is to have a platform.
And even if you think it's really small, like there's a leadership there. And so how do we lean into, at leadership and how do we lead in a way that reinforces the things we wanna see in the world instead of building and leading from a place of like scarcity and capitalism and toxicity. So it's, it's a program that's, it's called.
So, so I built this program. It's six weeks long, it's donation based. So you can pay me $5, you can pay me $500. I've had people pay both. And I did this once last year and I loved, loved, loved it. Um, and it's an invitation for us to come together and answer these questions together, both how do I, like, [00:02:00] we can't build, we can't.
Sacrifice ourselves, right? The martyrdom is not actually gonna get us what we want, but we also can't build in a way that is extractive of other people, or manipulative or coercive. And so how do we do that? And the answers are gonna be a little bit different for everybody. So this is a space where we can figure out how we want to build and lead with intention, um, and make something fucking better.
Because I, and, and the, the, the inspiration for this is that I think so many people feel powerless. The world is on fire. There's so many terrible things that feel like they're happening in Trump's America. And, and I think a lot of people feel kind of powerless to that. And that's, that's by design, we're supposed to feel powerless.
And so, um, and I don't, I don't want us to sit on the sidelines because the people who are loudest are the ones who are shaping the world and the country right now. So if you have a good heart, well you gotta start screaming, but in a way that doesn't feel like in a, in a way that has like power [00:03:00] behind it.
Eva: Mm-hmm.
Kyley: so. we even came up with this.
Eva: Yeah. So before we came up through you anyway, so relevant and I'm, so, I think it's so cool to see you use your, I mean, this is a wonderful example of you using your business. Um, I think to, I don't know, I guess like, how would I say? Like use your power in your business instead of sitting on the sidelines and then showing other people how they can do the same.
Kyley: Yeah. It's like I have thought about these topics a lot for years and also, I don't know, I don't have the answers to all these things. And so that's part of this space is, is bringing our collective wisdom and asking the questions together and I'm gonna share the things that I, I see and know, and also I wanna know, I wanna know.
I mean, I wanna, I want above all, I wanted the intentional space for us to look at these questions together and to come in community and hold each other accountable for using the, the platform and [00:04:00] leadership that is our business.
For what we wanna see in the world.
Eva: Yes. And I think that'll, this will bleed into the conversation today around power, but it just, it's about, I think, reclaiming our power when we feel really fucking powerless.
Kyley: Yes, yes. Exactly. Exactly. Yeah.
Eva: Um, okay. So I came to kyley with this question of like, what does it mean to be powerful? Because, um, it's interesting.
It's like something I wouldn't say that I. I'm unfamiliar with power. That's what's so interesting about this conversation is like, I know moments in time where I felt powerful, I know that I've become more powerful even,
Kyley: Mm-hmm.
Eva: and yet I still have a complicated relationship with it. And also sometimes it feels elusive.
And also I think my definition is, is
evolving and my experience of it is evolving. I think it's so important in my own personal path to to know my own power because my default like [00:05:00] is so much about fawning and making myself small and being really insecure and even self hate. Like it's, it's amazing to see like where I am now compared to like where I used to be, but it was like I know what it is to feel the opposite of powerful.
Kyley: Mm
Eva: And I'm also think I, maybe I'm being called to step up to the next level.
Kyley: mm Yeah.
Eva: I think maybe that's why this conversation feels relevant right now, and I'm curious to know. Yeah. What do you think, kyley?
Kyley: Well, I think the power is interesting. It's like. It's like surrender. It's like love, it's like hope. Like we've had some of these conversations where there's this word that we use all the time, and that is a touchstone, but also it isn't, we're not always clear on what we mean by it. And, and we aren't always, we don't always have clear sight about the things that we're projecting onto it.
And so someone who's thought about power a lot, um, [00:06:00] I, I also, I think about the ways in which we misunderstand it and misconstrued and project things onto it and then therefore withhold ourselves from it. Right? And so to get a little more tangible, I think about how often we,
there are so many people in this world. There's so many systems of cruelty in which power is a power over, right? It's a kind of, power is a thing that's used to hurt people and. If you're listening to this podcast, you probably care about not doing that. And when that's the model, when that's our understanding of power, consciously or unconsciously, we react to it and we push against it.
And so it's like, okay, well I don't wanna be, you know, Elon Musk, so I'm gonna be this tiny little fly on the wall because those feel like the only two options. And one of the things that I'm constantly thinking about is how we can just like s like slink out of that whole paradigm. Because I don't actually [00:07:00] think that power over extraction manipulation is, I think that's, I think that's, that's something else that's masquerading as power.
And then a whole bunch of us are, are again, like living in reaction to that and pushing away the true whatever, what our true power is and keep, which actually keeps us caught in this toxic
Eva: Mm-hmm.
Yeah. I love that you're speaking to this and I wanna spend more time really, um, like. Stretching out and taking a closer look of, of these distorted, um, images of power I think that we have. 'cause I think exactly what you're saying. Like we see someone like Elon Musk Trump or whatever, or big corporations.
There's like this almost like rebelliousness in us, which is interesting 'cause that's also a power. But then we use it, I think, in confused ways where I'm like, I don't wanna be like that. Like fuck that. I don't want to be part of the system that's all messed up and I don't want to, I don't want to be like these people. [00:08:00] So as a way of almost like expressing solidarity or our goodness or to like signal that we're, you know, not part of that system. We like bought, like it can show up in different ways, but we can freeze fawn. We could also, sometimes we try to mimic, there's also a mimicking where then we're like, okay, well if that's what power is, it's like, I don't want that, but I'm gonna try and do it in another version.
Do you know what I
mean?
Kyley: yes, yes, yes. Yeah. And I don't even think it always has to be as like big as, I mean, you know, Elon Musk and Trump are great examples of like, you know, overt toxic power. But most of the time we learn these in much subtler ways, right? Like a parent who. Doesn't, you know, know how to honor your boundaries and needs and way of being, right.
A power who says, a parent who says like, it is what it is. 'cause I said so, and then you learn that [00:09:00] like, you know, your job is to, um, you know, go along with that. And then you grow up in the world and you're like, well, I don't wanna be like my father. He was an asshole. Right? Not my dad, for what it's worth.
But like, and the, and then you're like, so I'm gonna adjust to your point, like kind of fawn or, you know, let people walk all over me because we have, I think, I think what I'm trying to point to is that we have this binary notion around power it, and it's like this either or. And because we don't wanna be the ones who do the extracting, we let ourselves be the ones extracted from,
Eva: Yes. Yep.
Kyley: and then that reinforces the very system of extraction
Eva: Mm.
Kyley: and like, and power that is cruelty.
Eva: Yes.
Kyley: And I think true power, which we're gonna figure out what that is maybe today,
Eva: Maybe.
Kyley: but is, is, is the thing that allows us to step out of that. Like no longer be the thing that is extracted from, because if you can't be extracted from the people, like Right, the ones who seem [00:10:00] like they have the power, which is the ones who are doing the extracting.
If you are not available to be extracted from the whole system, fucking topples. Right. I'm one of my favorite things right now is watching what's happening to Target.
It's
Eva: no idea what's happening at
Kyley: uh, just so, I mean this is a small example, but. Target is one of the first companies that like rolled back, its DEI in Trump, America.
And after like their whole shtick forever being like, we're like, you know, we purposely have all these black, you know, businesses and we have pride month, blah, blah, blah. And they were like so fucking fast. And so all of these, a whole bunch of people are like, okay, well I'm just never shopping at you yet.
And they're stock is plummeting. I mean, like, they're like the, it's having a very, very, very real financial impact and it is bringing me so much fucking delight to watch it happen. Just like, ugh. Target had to turn off its comments on TikTok because everyone was just going into the comments and talking about how great Costco is.
Just all the [00:11:00] comments.
Eva: okay. See, that to me is such a wonderful example of like, okay, so then it's like the power of the people, you know, the masses. You can go in and you can do something hilarious too. You know what
I mean? Like power. That's power to me.
And it doesn't have to be what we think it looks like. And that's another part of the conversation I would love to have either today or maybe we'll have a part two, blah, blah.
Like I think. It's so interesting. I'm, I'm seeing in my life, like it's so clear to me when I have, uh, I have examples of like what o overt power looks like or, or, or, or power over looks like. But it's really hard for me to find examples of my life of what clean power looks like. Power too. And I think it's, I don't know, I guess I'm curious, like, isn't that interesting?
Like, because I think it, it is all around us and sure, we have like some historical figures who really, um, represent that. But it's just interesting to me that for some reason, my mind is, it's so much easier to find the [00:12:00] Elon Musks and like the whatever, rather than,
Kyley: You're probably, you're, you're probably also not calling those examples power. You're probably
Eva: Yes. Yes, exactly. And so that's where the definition, like, this is what I mean when I say like, I wanna really hone in on this. It's like to actually see. It's almost like reclaiming the word
in some ways because it's, I, I do have co-opted versions of what I think power is, and it is like the power over, and I have made myself small being like, I don't wanna be like that. And I think you're right. Power is so many things. It's the Costco comments that are hilarious, you
Kyley: know, in, in, in the comments. And that is power. And previous, I don't know why, if I would've seen it as such, you know, prior to this conversation.
Okay. I think an important question here then is where and when do you feel [00:13:00] powerful?
Eva: Yes. Okay. I would love for both of us to share
on this, and I wanna share with my listeners to see if there's parts that they resonate with. But yeah, I'm just noticing, I'm really happy you're asking me this and I've played with this idea before, but it's so fun to like, go in again. 'cause I forget, I forget, I do forget. Um, I feel really powerful when I'm playful,
like when I'm almost like a cheeky bastard and I'm like,
I can just be like cheeky and just like, kind of fuck with people a little bit, but not, you know, not with malice, just like fun. Like it's a sense of like being a little bit like a, like a jokester. And, and I think that's interesting to me that I feel powerful then, because I think what my feeling is, is in that moment is like, there is a little sense of like. I am not insecure in those moments. And so therefore I don't have to take anything very seriously [00:14:00] and nothing sticks. Like there's nothing, like if I did something and it may be like upset somebody, I'm not responsible for their response. I can just
be, be me. Um, so that's interesting to see. I feel powerful when I do think actually like self-expression is a form of power for me.
And I really mean that in something as simple as like, and simple and big as style, like self-expression through, 'cause you know, if listeners of the pod, like you guys know, like I love style and um, you know, self-expression through that, through those forms. And that's like fun for me. That's another way.
Another thing that was interesting notice is that that's like. It's fun. And so now I'm seeing a parallel between like, but like, yeah, that like power can like be fun, but I also feel really, I mean there's so many iterations and I'm gonna name a few more and then you name some that I might have some more.
But I also think I feel really powerful when honestly it could be something as [00:15:00] simple and as big as when I previously had some behavior that was like super toxic or really not helpful. And then I see myself doing it differently. Like that sense of agency and empowerment that like, oh, I got this, I can, you know, I'm capable of making change. There is a sense of like power in self-efficacy and self-belief of like, and it's also just fucking gratifying, you know?
But that, that feels so s it feels like so small, but actually I'm like, yeah, that is one I feel really good.
And then I'm gonna say one more and then I think another, just in terms of like, I. More like in groups because power is is also like, I think oftentimes associated with like leadership.
You know what I mean? And I don't really think about it so much in terms of like leadership, but I think it's, when I'm with people, it's like power is when I feel like I have the ability to bring people together [00:16:00] and have everyone feel seen and included rather than separate. And that's a beautiful experience as well. Yeah. I honestly, I'm so happy you were asking. 'cause I wouldn't have necessarily named these things for myself if I what? Didn't have the time to think about it.
Kyley: Well, and I like this last, the thing I'll say about the last one is that I would, I would wonder if you feel powerful in that particular instance, because that is one of your unique ways of being in the world, right? Like if that's a gift that you have of like making people feel seen and welcomed and like building community and like all of that, then when you're doing it in a aligned, authentic way, you feel powerful because that's like your gift in the world.
Eva: Yeah, I mean, I think you're speaking to something really important, which is I also think we feel powerful when we're using our gifts. You know,
whether you're like an artist or a [00:17:00] creator or a builder or whatever, like, and it goes again with that sense of satisfaction and gratification maybe.
Kyley: Yes.
Eva: So that's also good to know. I think, yeah, maybe I feel powerful when I'm using a skill that I know that I have, you know, and I, and I'm doing something well. But actually in that case of this idea of like bringing people together, what I'm noticing is that like I can only do that, and this may not be true for other people because sure, we can do things when we're self-conscious, but like when I'm in my fucking head and basically when I'm taking power away from myself, I'm just like in my head feeling self-conscious, like constantly checking myself, like blah, blah, blah, blah. I am so. Concerned with myself that I'm actually not available to bring people together. And actually that 'cause bringing people together can trigger all my shit. Right? Like, it's like a big
social situation. It's like,. it can bring up social anxieties, right? Bringing people together. And I think when I'm so self concerned, I'm actually not available
to do that. Well, I'm just really concerned about myself and it takes up
all the, [00:18:00] all the space and all the air. And so there's something about like, maybe I feel powerful when I'm bringing people together and making people feel comfortable is because if I'm doing that well. Again, it's me feeling solid in myself. Oh, so maybe that's another way that I, when I feel
powerful, it's
Kyley: it's really actually about the solid in yourself,
Eva: yeah.
Kyley: and then the other things are like a side effect.
Eva: Yes.
Kyley: Because if you're really solid in yourself and you bring community together, and then the community is, they have a hard time together, but you're really solid in yourself, you would still feel powerful.
Right? And then you would just hold the like tension that they were having instead of the love fest
Eva: Yes. Yes.
Kyley: Yeah, yeah. Yeah. Well this gets to something I was thinking about. First of all, I really, really love that you pointed out like not taking things so seriously. I think that's really important.
And I don't, I wanna, I don't wanna like leave that hanging. Um, but I think for me, and I think for me it's when [00:19:00] I'm not to the building off of what you're saying about feeling sure of myself, it's like when I'm not asking. People or things or outcomes to prove myself to myself, then I feel powerful. Like, I think a, we think a lot that we will feel powerful when we haven't achi when we achieve something.
You know, like when I bake this cake or when I run this half marathon, or, you know, when I, you know, make this milestone. But I think what's actually happening is, like, for me, it's when I'm unhooked from those things as meaning something about me. Like when, when I let those things define my value, then like I've run to half marathons.
This was a while ago now. I haven't really run since I had kids, but, and like the first one, I didn't even count as having run. I, because I, 'cause I told myself I walked so much and I didn't think that I really trained that hard. And so my story was like, well, you know, you like didn't really do [00:20:00] it. And then I did one that I actually trained for and the time was like shockingly similar.
And I was like. Maybe that first one counts.
Eva: Uhhuh. Uhhuh.
Kyley: You know what I mean? Like, um, but, but I share that because like, I accomplished something that was arguably really cool, but I didn't let myself like, receive the feeling of being powerful from it because I was, well, it doesn't really count because blah, blah, blah, blah.
Because I was defining myself like I was letting something about it define me. And, and I feel like, yeah, when we're basically like, when we're unhooked from our achievements and we meaningfully engage with things that are important to us, that that brings me a feeling of power. It's like when I'm not, I don't need success or failure to define me, and I am meaningfully engaging with like writing or like making a [00:21:00] podcast or like all of those things like creating.
Without being attached to outcome is always a place of power for me.
Eva: Oh, interesting. I would've not clocked that. And I actually want you to speak more about that. Can you actually
say, like, so meaning like, okay, so your, your business is a place of like, where there's a lot of creation, right?
Or, but not also, I'd also know that you've done, you know, you're knitting, you know, and you are crocheting
for a while.
Like, you, you, you venture into these sort of like pleasureful activities. Is that what you mean? Like, does knitting quote unquote count? Like
are you knitting and you're like, I'm not, am I just doing this for fun or are you talking about actually where, yeah. Can you just gimme more of an example?
Kyley: Yeah, that's a really good thing. I don't know if I would think of knitting, but probably. Um,
and
Eva: like this podcast. So I'm just, this is, I dunno why this is so foreign to me. So like you creating this podcast 'cause it's fun and 'cause we enjoy it and 'cause we come alive and we're, and I think we get to use some of our skill sets,
but you're not attached to the outcome [00:22:00] that infuses you with a sense of power.
Kyley: Oh my gosh. I'm appreciating also you're like, wait, tell me more. Because I think this is one of those things that feels so obvious to me that I actually have not given myself credit for it being something that's like, that's actually is about me. Um, which I think is just like, and I, to go on a little bit of a tangent, that's probably on a tangent, I have been realizing how much, like one of my like north stars in life is just to be a creator, right?
Like is to be, to be engaged in creative generation is like one of my north stars. And we did this really cool exercise in villain era in which we were kind of identifying various north stars and for one person who was intimacy and for somebody else, it was like authentic self expression, right? And I was like, oh, like yeah, I am driven by this desire to and pleasure in like the art of creating, right?
Um,
Eva: this question by the way. Sorry, can I just throw in my own thing? 'cause I just
Kyley: yes, please, please, please.
Eva: I definitely think one of my north stars is just fun.
Kyley: [00:23:00] Yeah.
Eva: have fun.
Kyley: Oh, I would say that's, which is, yes, which is interesting. 'cause I, the first thing you said about this is like, when I'm like being kind of a, a cheeky bastard when I am like having fun when I'm not taking things so seriously, you feel powerful. That's really interesting, right?
Because it's actually your North star. It's, it is like, the only way we do the exercise is like, it's both a north star and also urinate way of being. So it's like this thing, we try to, like, it's a thing we tend to pursue, but also we always already
Eva: Mm. Mm-hmm.
Mm-hmm.
Kyley: Um, so yeah, and I would also reflect back.
I think that is very true. You are like, you are very, you are like, one of the things that I just love about you, it's, you're really great at like, I don't know, having a good time, not taking things so seriously. Like we had a great time dancing. I was just thinking about that the other day. I was like, I wish Eva was here so we could go dancing.
Um. Still remember my feet sticking to the floor. We were at this like total dive bar, which I did pick on purpose because I was like, Eva, we are gonna have fun at a dive bar. And like literally I can remember my feet
Eva: Mm-hmm.
Kyley: the floor.
Eva: Yep. [00:24:00] Yep. Pretty
Kyley: Um, anyway. Anyway, um, like, yeah, like I, I love writing, I love creating, I love when I'm like in the flow, like when I get like inspired and I can just like crank out like 10 TikTok videos in an afternoon.
I love that feeling so fucking much. Um, because I know there'll be fire because I'm in that like, kind of creative flow, but also like, it's just super fun and I know that they'll like land with people that they need to land for. Um, and that there will be like an impact in my business. Um,
and also like, yeah, I just am having fun.
And then there's other times that I go to make videos and like, it's just. It doesn't have that same spark of fun. And, and I'm oftentimes we'll still make them. 'cause sometimes you gotta like, you know, you gotta just, you gotta start somewhere. Exactly. And sometimes I post them, but, but when it is that really, like, powerful, it is interesting how much I also feel like [00:25:00] feeling really powerful does have an element of like, pleasure to it.
Um, and, and I think it's, yeah. It's like be just being in creative flow, which is also like, not in my head, right? Like, I'm, I'm inspired, I'm not in my head. And Yeah. Like making, making just feels good.
Eva: Yes,
Kyley: I know. Does that
Eva: it, well, I would say, this is what I wrote, which I think is so spot on and beautiful, is that I think what I'm hearing you say is like, we feel powerful when we're following our North star, which is an expression of who we are.
So for you, you're talking about creativity, but really underneath that is that you're just expressing like who you are.
And for me, because I don't feel, I don't feel the same way about creativity, but I feel that way about fun. But for you, like that
is your thing, dude. You are just like an ideas maven who just like makes things happen and I, you get a spark out of it, you know? And I do think that's actually is an expression of who you are.
So.
Kyley: what's interesting? Okay, sorry. But I, I [00:26:00] realized recently, it's not specifically creativity, but there's something about actually, like creative expression. There's something about, right, because creativity can just be like, I'm playing with my notebook and I'm like writing and it's like making things just for me.
And there is real pleasure in that, but I don't, but I'm not driven by that the same way and the real, like that like pleasureful feeling of power and like impact is the arc from creative spark to putting out in the
Eva: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
Kyley: regardless of the outcome, right?
Um, but, but. But I, I say that specifically 'cause that was an aha for me, that it's not like creativity for creativity's sake can be a North star, but it's not quite the same thing, which is like, I actually have this compulsion and this like deep satisfaction that comes from then like putting
Eva: Well, 'cause that's your, that's your talent. Like that's
your talent. It's part of like what you're really good at. I also think, I also think my friend Susan's like really good at this. Some people just like see things and then to [00:27:00] be able to express it is a whole nother art form. Like you see it and then you create something out of what you see.
Kyley: Yeah. Yeah. Well, and to answer your question about knitting, 'cause I keep thinking about that. So just made this baby blanket for my brother. 'cause my brother's having a baby this summer.
Eva: And it's a beautiful blanket. I can't believe you put all that together.
Kyley: it was really fun and I don't think I would think of it as like, I do think they felt a little, I do think there was a feeling of like, wouldn't call, I wouldn't have called it power, but there is a kind of powerful satisfaction of like.
I made this thing and it is meaningful and it is, and I like, you know, imbued it with some magic as I was making it. Like the other day, I fell on the floor and I was like, that is a sacred thing. I mean, they can put it on the floor when they get it, but until I give it to them, you know? Um, and yeah, so I guess there was a feeling of, I, I, yeah, I wouldn't have put that word to it, but in the way that we're playing with defining power as like [00:28:00] satisfaction and pleasure and like a feeling of like fulfillment.
Like I'm feeling that like, like that, that, that, that way that I feel like an inner sense of fulfillment. It feels connected to power for me when I'm like, lead a really great group program or like write something that I really love. Like, I guess I did have that, I did have a version of that when I, when I made my baby blanket.
Eva: Yeah.
Well, I think what you, it's something, something that we've both spoken on is also like within power, there's also a sense of fulfillment when we're doing something that feels like satisfying and meaningful and fulfilling. It seems like there's a connect for us anyway,
when we. That we also, that also allows us to feel that sense of power. But it is really interesting because, and I want you to share more, 'cause I think, you know,
you've only given one example so far. But so far I find it really fascinating that I think you're right that this is my felt experience of power. And yet that's not [00:29:00] what you said earlier. You're like, you know, I wouldn't have called these things powerful.
Like, the reason I don't, I'm confused about what power means is because I'm still looking at this like, you know, power over paradigm and then missing all these other times in my life where power is there and is available and is experienced either by me or I see it in other people. I'm just not calling it that.
So it really does feel like a reclaiming
of the, of the word and the experience.
But also, and then I, sorry, one more thing, but also what I really wanna get to is that, and then also how do we utilize this
to effectively make change in the world?
Kyley: mm Okay. That might be a part. It might have to be a part two, but, um, I only, 'cause I feel like there's so many things to say about that, but I think another place where I feel really powerful is magic. Like, and when I, I, when I say magic, I mean it can be anything from like doing ritual to like a really deep meditation that I go take, take myself on to like a, just a powerful group container, right?
I'm not always overtly [00:30:00] taking everyone on, you know, meditative journey, but there's, it's always super packed with magic, right? Um, and that the, I have a feeling in my chest when I'm like really channeling what I call magic, uh, for lack of a better word, that feels like it feels in my chest like a crisp.
Like a crisp, cool brook, right? Like, like the quality of like water that is crisp and cool and clear, like it's that feeling, but inside my chest. And that feels like that is like the most delicious pie of power.
Um, and it feels like transcendent and it also feels tangible and ugh. It's just such a delicious experience.
And, um, [00:31:00] and I feel very powerful in those moments.
Eva: Yes. And
Kyley: Mm. I don't, but I, I actually wanna rephrase that. I feel very full of power in those moments, right? Like, we think powerful. I feel like, kind of has like an egoic energy to it, right? Or it can, right? Which is, is like, I, the eye is powerful, but in those moments, I just, my, it's like my, the eye, the like egoic eye is so.
Like swept out to see for that moment and there's this just fullness. That is power. I think we could also say that is like love that is like beingness and that that feels like the truth of like the truth of power. Mm-hmm.
Eva: Yeah. Ooh, that's good. I think that is, you're hitting on something really important. And I will say though, that I would agree that I experience you as full of power, powerful and full of power when I see you do your magic. And what I'm experiencing in those [00:32:00] moments is just like a dropped in quality of like just deep connection
with, with a self, with, with outside of the self, with all. And that's fascinating. 'cause that's also a different flavor of power
Kyley: Mm-hmm.
Eva: that is like, I. I think very important to, I think anyone who feels like they walk through this earth with a spiritual experience, it's like being connected. You know?
Kyley: Yeah, which is also what you said about like having a community of people. There's like this thing about connected
and to your point of like, how do we make meaningful change, like in those moments, like if I'm really dropped in and channeling magic, and I'm sure you have this when you're in a client call too, like, like I know that the impact that needs to happen is going to happen and there's no efforting.
Like when I'm in that place and I'm totally dropped, which is actually somewhat similar to like when I'm in a creative flow, [00:33:00] it's like I know that the thing that needs to happen is gonna happen. And so I'm not looking for it or efforting for it. I'm just in trust. I'm in, I'm I'm, I am just in it. I'm just immersed in it and then I've like let go and so things are flowing through me and I trust.
And the impact is way bigger than if I'm in my head, and if I'm like trying to like, make it happen. So it's like, oh, once again, did we get back to surrender?
Eva: Mm-hmm. Always. Which is also interesting. It's like that can also be another place where I feel powerful is when I surrender, but Okay. But I wanna stick with this. Okay. So I'm, do you have any more examples? And I just wanna say like, I'm loving the examples because, but also it doesn't answer my, I'm loving examples and then I want to like take this to like the next step, which is like, what do we do with this information?
Kyley: Okay. I'm resisting your, but I'm gonna just like bookmark a topic, which is that I think I, [00:34:00] I, I think our goal, if there's a goal is actually to surrender into power. Like I think surrender and power are two sides of the same coin. And like one, like I, I, I don't, I, I think. It's interesting, like you said, like, oh, I think I also feel powerful when I surrender, but I think, I think more often, like surrender's an vital ingredient and is maybe even arguably the same thing as power or like the entry point to power.
There's, there's, there's like a, I think there's a really intimate relationship between surrender and power that we don't have to talk to you about now, but I just wanna flag, I think that they're really interwoven. I don't think they're like casual or occasional friends.
Eva: Okay. I mean, I think I'll start by saying I agree with you. I definitely think that is. I, I think at times they're almost, it's, it's like they go hand in hand in, in ways almost like we, where you can't separate [00:35:00] them. I think my
question is like, but can there also be a stepping into power? Which, which actually doesn't feel like, okay, well I'll just speak to an, an
experience that I recently had where like I had a confrontation with somebody who normally I would not want to have a convers con confrontation with. And I really felt an experience of like, I'm gonna stand my fucking ground. And it was like so powerful. It was like I could feel it in the moment of like, something is changing here.
Kyley: Mm-hmm.
Eva: And it was a choice, but it didn't feel like surrender. It felt like, it felt like choosing a new way
and it felt very intentional. And it also felt a little, it was weird. It was like there was a little sense of like discomfort, but there was also a sense of like clarity.
So. I think I'm just wondering, you know, 'cause power means so many different things. It's expressed in different ways. It's used for different things. So I wonder if it al also is ex, you know, we, we get to it in different ways.
[00:36:00] Sometimes it might be surrender. So Anna, what do you think about that? This idea of like stepping into your power, like
claiming your power or expressing your power?
Kyley: I mean. I don't wanna get too hung up on my surrender kink, but,
Eva: You know, I love a good kink.
Kyley: but I think in that moment you were all, you were actually surrendering because you were surrendering to your greater truth instead of fighting against it. And you were, part of the surrender was also that you were letting go of the outcome. Right? You weren't saying something because you were in control of the outcome.
You were like, I'm saying this 'cause I gotta fucking say it either way. And so I think, I think, I think a powerful, like a stepping into power also still has like interconnectedness with surrender. And I think another interesting example of this might be like, you know, you're like at a party and like there's someone there who's just like so charismatic, right?
They're like so charming and like you can't help but just be like, who is that person? Right? And like everyone in the room is like, who is that person? That person does not give a fuck if you like [00:37:00] them or
Eva: Mm-hmm.
Kyley: And that's why they're so right. That's like part of their appeal. So there's a surrender there, which is like.
I don't give a fuck if people like me or not. Right. It's like a, like a letting go of control of how people perceive you, which then makes you so deliciously magnetic
and, and, and so like your power, like there's a kind of power that comes online when we let go of the need to have our power achieve a certain
Eva: Yes. Well, I mean, that gets to my other piece of like powers. I also think I experience power when it's actually like, and this is where it gets like, confusing for me, and I think I'm actually starting to just realize that I'm confused of like, why do I even wanna have this conversation? You know? It's like, what am I trying to get at?
Like, what am I trying to get outta this? What am I trying to get at? Um, but we can get to that later. It's more about like, I do think, I don't know, I think I'm really confused about this because I do think for me, power is [00:38:00] sometimes, as they say, with all spiritual learning, not all. Oftentimes in spiritual learning, you're not.
If you're not gaining something new, you're letting go of something. So like
in that situation with the person at the party, they're not, they're not going in being like, I'm gonna, I'm gonna hold on to people not caring. They're letting go of whether or not people really care. And, and it's
like very genuine. It's like, that's actually when I feel most powerful too. It's like when I've let go of something like, like, it's like shedding all the layers of the onion and then you just come back to like beingness or
isness or love or whatever you wanna call it. Um, and that feels very clear to me, but I still feel like sometimes there is a claiming aspect.
Kyley: Yes. Sometimes I think about it as like breathing in and breathing out. Like you have like, like both. You can't, you can't just breathe in,
Eva: Mm-hmm.
Kyley: right? Like you'll feel all also suffocate. Like we have this, like sometimes that's how I think about it is like, um, I went through this really interesting experience [00:39:00] in the fall specifically with my business where I felt it, it was, it was this push pull, which is why I feel like keyed up on this power surrender thing because I kept having these like really intense moments where spirit would be like, do you want this thing or not?
Like, do you like, like a kind of tough love, like, do you fucking want this or not? 'cause if you want it, like lean the fuck in and claim it. And then I would lean the fucking and claim it. And then they'd be like, cool, can you let the fuck go and stop being a control freak? And then it was just that like almost every day, right?
Was like, do you want this or not? Claim it. Dammit. And then I would claim, and they'd be like, great, now sit back and let us do our thing. And it was just like over and over and I, and I felt the energy of like, oh, it's the inhale and it's the leaning all the way in, and then totally letting go. It's like I am the one, like I am the current, I am the channel, so I gotta cl I have to lean in.
And then also I am not at all in charge and I'm a [00:40:00] tiny spec of nothing and I have to let go. And, and I think that whatever we're calling power happens when we're, when we are like in that, in the intersection of that,
Eva: yep, yep. That makes complete sense. Yep. Okay, we're done here. That's good.
Kyley: we still dunno what power is.
Eva: Well, okay. Yeah. Okay. So yes, actually let's bookmark that. What is power? But I just wanna speak to like Yes. I mean, what I think what you're speaking to is the paradox that shows up in all areas of life or so many areas of life. It's both and, I'm just tracking right now within me, like, but again, why does this feel important to me? Like what am
I trying to get out of this? Why does this feel personal?
And I think that's important to note because then I think that helps us share this information more clearly with our listeners as well.
But it's like, I think I'm having a longing and a craving to, to show up and feel more powerful in my own life. now there's just like a shift happening and I think I'm just [00:41:00] trying to understand like what does that look like?
Kyley: Yeah. Uh,
Eva: I don't even know really what I'm trying to say. I mean, I'm really speaking to you
now. It's like there's something here for me. I don't know what it is.
Kyley: Okay. I have, I have a question. I have a question to ask though. Um,
can you describe what this longing feels like
Eva: Mm-hmm.
Kyley: or calling?
Eva: Yeah. Can I, okay, but before that,
I just have to say something. The other thing I'm clocking is, it's so fascinating how, you know there is this longing here to show up more powerfully in my life. And because of that, it's interesting to notice when I give myself shit for not showing up powerfully. There's a lot of that inner dialogue of like, oh, I think almost this, almost a story as if being powerful is. Um, somehow is better than showing up meekly. It's
almost this like pressure, the sense of like, and it's interesting for me to say that because I'm [00:42:00] like, I, in some ways I feel like I'm just solidifying some toxic story that's not true.
Like this idea of like, Oh in order to be successful, in order to be like, who, like live in integrity, the person that I want to be a standup noble citizen.
It's like, it's it's admirable to be powerful. And if I'm not showing up that way, it means I'm weak. And I
think that's like really toxic. I think.
'cause we, that's when power, we take this story and we use it against ourselves as like, I have to be strong and powerful all the fucking time. And when I'm not, it means that there's something wrong.
And I, and
I just
wanna clock how toxic that is.
Kyley: yes. I mean, I love, like we started by talking about how we're afraid of power because we don't wanna be like essentially the abuser, but then I think you're pointing to the same. The other thing that also happens, which is like this pressure to be powerful and this kind of like disgust or judgment of quote unquote weakness and weakness that we.
Project onto ourselves. I am really guilty. I know I'm really guilty of this. There's so many ways that I'm so soft and gentle [00:43:00] with myself. Like, okay, baby girl, you gotta cry. We're gonna cry. But there's this knowing like, like I know who I am and I know what I'm capable of. And so when I fall and unquote short of that, I am really hard on myself because I'm like, oh, this is entirely self-created and if you could just fucking claim your power and stop being so like, insecure and weird.
And like what? Like, like just like kind of like a like get over yourself kind of thing. Like I can be really, I have such a kind inner monologue in so many ways and this is an area that I'm really guilty of being unkind to myself. That's just like, get over it. You know? And it, and it is interesting because it's on some level, it comes from this place that.
I actually have a very deep well of confidence in how like powerful I am and people have, you've reflected back to me like that. I'm really helpful at helping people like claim their bigness. It's kind of like a
Eva: your a thing.
Kyley: I, a thing I do, which actually then can really exacerbate [00:44:00] this inner critic. That's like, if this is what you do, why are you being such a fucking baby about it?
Eva: Yeah. And that's exactly like, and I, and I just wanna like, name how I think that takes power and turns it into this really unhealthy thing. Like, um, like I'm supposed to be powerful. So if I'm not, that says something bad about me.
And, and also this idea of what I don't like about this is how it, I think it really reinforces the story that powerful is better than weak. Like we have such a prejudice against weak and meek. And I actually think like with all, you know, healing and what we do here on the podcast with our clients, it's like actually, you know, like we need to like love our weak parts and our meek parts just as much. And I see how I don't do that. Essentially, that's what you're saying when [00:45:00] you, when you're like shitting all over yourself, you are like criticizing and punishing the parts of yourself that are maybe I don't, weak or meek, and saying that they're wrong
Kyley: Yeah,
Eva: and that's fucked. Like
we're fucked, you know, if we live that way.
Kyley: and I think it also makes for a brittle power, like when our power doesn't. Our power isn't strong enough to hold. I like Meek. I like meek instead of weak. It's, it's making me think of like, you know, lamb of God shit in a way that I, I
Eva: of God,
Kyley: uh, it, the name Agnes means Lamb of God. There's like a funny line I think from The Simpsons about it was also my grandmother's name, but, um, it's like kind of a reference in like, it, it makes me think of like a biblical Christian reference to like, you know, like lamb of like, you're just a, you're a lamb of God.
Like, you're like a beloved. Your meekness is welcome anyway. People who grow Christian are like nodding
Eva: Okay. Because I'm like, yep. People who did not are like me.
Kyley: You grow Catholic, they're like, [00:46:00] yeah, lamb of God.
Um, anyway, um, um, but I like, I like the word meek instead of weak because I think for me there's a kind of like neutrality that's coming in with it, whereas like weak feels vulnerable.
Meek feels like, oh,
Eva: like the word meek weak. That's why I like the word weak, because I think we have such a weird association with it, you know?
Kyley: Well, yes, that's very true. That's very true. But I'm just, I'm just watching how I'm getting a, I feel like I'm getting a chance to see my, what I like, what I code week, and I'm also getting a chance to be like, or you could just see it as meek
Eva: Mm. Mm-hmm.
Kyley: just, it's like, it just feels like a different engagement.
But you're right. Yes. I'm, I'm all here for like, rescuing, you know, the, the villainous terms. I thiNk our power is riddle when it isn't big enough to hold the meek or the thing that we would call weak because it's like that, like white, it's like that white knuckled, you know. [00:47:00] I'm powerful as long as, and all my power has to go into keeping these parts of myself at bay as opposed to a kind of big, generous power that can hold what we perceive as weak and meek.
Um, and that, that's real. That's the real power. That's the truth. And the other kind of power is like a grasping, artificial performative
Eva: Mm-hmm. Yep. Yep.
Kyley: Yeah.
Eva: I almost feel like we need to, I mean, essentially it's always the same. Like we need to allow ourselves to be weak and meek in order to be powerful.
And also, and, and that's hard for me actually, because I have a hu I can't, like I am, I. I have a lot of self-loathing, actually. I'd go as far I should say, it's self-loathing when I experience myself as weak and I actually think there's such humility. There've been times where I've just been like [00:48:00] laid out completely by my humility of like seeing where I wasn't powerful and I was all the things that I hated as, you know, you know, that's like what villain era is like to, to love these parts of us. And then I'm so humbled by it like that. I'm actually not afraid.
Like I, it's interesting where I'm not afraid of my weakness anymore and then that feels powerful,
Kyley: you know?
I'm curious what specific weak things we think there are. Right. We have this perception that there's things because I, there are things that I might perceive as weak and you wouldn't, and vice versa. Right? Meaning there's not a neutral, it's not a,
Eva: Yes, totally.
Kyley: whatever we're perceiving as weak is totally just its own internalized story.
For example, I think you and I are both really comfortable at like, oh yeah, I gotta cry for an hour. How beautiful. Whereas other people feel that feels really dangerous and weak. Whereas I think you and I feel the strength of like, oh, I just have to cry for an hour. No big deal. [00:49:00] So whatever is in the week is not, it's just it's story.
And I'm curious, like, I'm like, I'm thinking for myself like, well what? What is what? Is the weak that I'm so afraid of or resentful of. I think for me it's actually, I have a lot of resentment towards whatever's in weak at the moment.
Eva: That is such a good question. I think it's about, for me, it's where I feel it's, it it, that's so interesting. And you're right, it's all, it's very personal. I don't think it could be, there's like a. Uh, a universal answer across the board, but maybe you can help me parse out what I'm trying to say here. But I know I saw recently, or I've been seeing actually within the past year, how judgmental I am about being needy. Like when I am needy, oh, it makes me wanna vomit. You know? Like that to me is just like the most pathetic thing that a person can [00:50:00] be like, like, needy. It just brings up all of my like avoidant attachment shit, you know? 'cause I'm like, I'm like, I definitely have avoid, you know, I'm disorganized attachment, but there's parts of me that are avoidant be like, that person's super dumb and lame when they're really needy and it's just like too much.
And so, but what's underneath that is like, really is that I feel like it's pathetic to need something from someone else that I, you know, not, not to be able to give that to myself, which then makes me feel really vulnerable. So if I'm that vulnerable, like I'm that vulnerable to pain, I.
Kyley: Mm-hmm.
Eva: Really what's there is probably just a protection.
I'm trying to
like, be like, don't be weak so that I, I'm not susceptible
to being hurt
by other
Kyley: Well, and also you're saying needy, but I think, well, the thing under that is like weak is to need like full stop. Right? To have needs is to be weak.
Eva: I mean yeah, that sounds pretty much in, in line with Yeah. With
my [00:51:00]
Kyley: then, then it's like, you know, 'cause like, what's the slide ruler of like, oh, water, like this, this glass of water is too needy, versus that glass of water wasn't needy. Right. It's like, it's just a slide ruler, but it's, but really it's like, to have needs is to be weak.
Eva: Yep. It's true. I mean, I definitely go there sometimes, you
know, it, it's, it's very colonized, sort of like hyper individualistic, westernized culture of like. And that is actually ingrained into
our culture, you know, and when I think about like, whose story is this? It's like, I got this from somewhere, you know? That we need to be hyper vigilantly capable of taking care of ourselves and like, and, and it's separate. You know, like that's where the sense of separation comes from and from our, our society. It's like you
gotta do everything on your own.
And if you need to ask your help, you suck.
Kyley: yeah. Right. And, and what's a good way to make sure you have a bunch of needs by like, not being allowed to even
speak them or meet them or voice them? Right. Um, what's interesting, what's [00:52:00] coming to my mind is, um, as soon as I said it, I could start to feel, actually the resentment is like actually quite intense.
I hadn't clocked it in. As soon as I said it, it just started to take over. My body was like, thank you for noticing. And, and it's resentment of my, of fear. So like, basically I was like, oh, I don't think I'm afraid. What I am is like really angry and resentful and bitter towards the part of me who is afraid.
Eva: Mm. Mm-hmm.
Kyley: And so, like, my fear, my fear is weak. But that, like, that's what the, like, you know, the part of me who's afraid of getting hurt or afraid of whatever, but I am like, I'm like, yeah, I, I can feel that I'm actually kind of like disgusted
Eva: But so, but why are you resentful?
Kyley: Of fear. Like because, because I am aware of like you're the only thing holding us back dummy.
Like if you weren't afraid, that's the story, right? If you weren't afraid, like we have all this power, we [00:53:00] have all this, like we have access to all these things, we're so fucking great. And if you just weren't afraid, we could just have everything we want and you're fucking everything up. I'd being a scaredy pack cat, like get on board or get out of town is like,
Eva: Yeah, I mean, I am, I'm sensing that as like perfectionism, the sense of basically like you think that like you should be different. Like you're doing it wrong and you can be doing it better. You basically expect yourself not to be the way that you are.
Kyley: can I just say this part of me that I'm voicing right now, when you said perfectionism was like, no, I'm just right,
Eva: Oh. That's when you know it's bad, that's when you know it's bad. Oh my God. Which I've totally been there.
Kyley: which is like the most perfectionist response of all time.
Eva: yep. And I think the question, so like, what happens if like you don't get it right? That you're not actually getting it right? That you're not perfect, that it's actually,
that you're getting it super wrong.
Kyley: she's like, then we don't get what we want, obviously. And that's unacceptable. Yeah. This is just perfectionism, but like a keyed up, bitter perfection. Like usually I think of my perfectionism as [00:54:00] very like scared, right? She's like, oh, we have to get it right. But actually this is perfectionism, but it's the, it's the bitter flavor.
You know how like chips come in, like special, special
Eva: Yep. This is the bitter one. I get it.
Okay. Wait,
Kyley: Oh, this is very intriguing.
Eva: Uhhuh. Um, I just wanna be mindful of time 'cause I know you gotta go
Kyley: We do have to, we do have to
Eva: So should we just like, should we like preview part two?
Kyley: Yeah. Let's, I think, yeah, this feels, this feels rich. So let's
Eva: Yeah. 'cause I don't think we're gonna, I don't feel like we're gonna wrap it up. I don't know how
much, I don't know. I don't know where you would go in part two specifically, but it doesn't feel complete.
Kyley: We could talk about this forever. And I think we just agreed that we will have to do a part two. 'cause I think in some ways we're still figuring out what power is,
Eva: Mm-hmm. Totally.
And I do actually wanna apply it to what you were talking about with your course program, like at the very top of the show of like also in a time where, where, where it benefits others. I mean, always has, but you know, benefits others. To feel powerless. I think people, a lot of people feel powerless right now.
A lot of people would like to have more agency in their lives. So how can we like take what [00:55:00] this conversation and help all of us apply it in our lives in a way that, I don't know, it feels like, it feels like it's meaningful.
Kyley: an
Eva: Yeah. It makes an impact. Yeah.
That's what I wanna discover.
Kyley: Okay. I like that plan. Um, and if you too wanna discover that you should listen to the next episode and come sign up for firebrand.
do
Eva: Yes. Yes,
Kyley: do both my love. What's bringing you joy right now?
Eva: We just finished the seven day retreat here in Brazil. Love is the power, and I'm still processing, but I just feel overwhelmed with fucking gratitude for the 30 plus people who flew their asses all the way to Brazil.
It's a long ass trip and people were coming from all over and it's like, it's, and, and every single person makes the event. What it is, like, it gives the event, event a special flavor and [00:56:00] pe it's just, I just, I don't even know. It's just, I just feel an overwhelming sense of gratitude. Gratitude that we got to do this together and then we got to know each other so well and build friendships and be so intimate with each other. And I feel an overwhelming sense of gratitude for the Hun Ku, which is the, the. Family here, the indigenous family that leads the Ayahuasca ceremony. Like I'm feeling so much gratitude for Ayahuasca. The plan itself, like humbled to like what's possible. And I just, the experiences that I feel like I've been given the opportunity to have, to get closer and closer to freedom and love like that just all feels really, really big. So yeah, I'm kind of on cloud nine right now, um, and I would love to share more about that at some point. But really, I just wanna give a shout out to Love is the Power of Brazil, and we're gonna do it again next year. So keep your eyes open. All right. kyley, what about you? What's something that's bringing [00:57:00] you joy?
Kyley: Um, we, I wanna say two things. Hmm. Brady's birthday was on Monday, which is why I wasn't in Brazil.
Eva: Yes. Wait, is
she six now?
Kyley: the 6-year-old and I took my kids yesterday, we played hooky. So a couple days after our birthday and there was this like interactive Vincent Van Gogh exhibit in a town that was like an hour, hour 15 away.
And it was so much fun. Um, we like went and had lunch and like hung out and colored and played cards. And then we went to this, you know. Art thing and there was VR headsets there to never done. And so I was like, yeah, sure you can all pay the five bucks. And they were so funny. And I kept going up to Desi and like poking him on the shoulder and he was, oh my God.
He was laughing so hard. And it was just so sweet. And I just like, I [00:58:00] love that I get to do goofy fun things with my kids and I love my mom for being the kind of mom who modeled like, yeah, skip school for a cool activity. You know? She was really good about that. Like, yeah, go to school. It's important. And also don't worry if you've got a better
Eva: the most important. Yeah.
Kyley: Yeah.
Yeah, Um, and yes, we just had, we just, such a blast. And so that was, that was really just lovely and I just am proud of my kids and they're really cool and they h million things and we had a lot of fun. And the other thing that's bringing me joy is just reading,
Eva: Mm. Mm-hmm.
Kyley: just like really in my element. I got a good reading habit going and I'm just.
Soaking up all these, I'm, I'm particular really loving. I'm in an era of like, cozy, queer, romantic. So if anyone has any recommendations that, that's very specific niche is like all I wanna consume. Um,
Eva: sounds amazing. Actually, I have to get recommendations from you, I think.
Kyley: yes. I mean, I also say a [00:59:00] lot of like, I love a good, you know, fantasy novel with, with romance in it. And a lot of them are just, if, if it's a straight romance, they're just so boring. Like it's just so, like, and the men is very protective and the woman is tough, but also loves to be, and I'm just like bored, you know?
I'm just bored.
And I mean, I'm also not a straight lady, so I also just appreciate queer romance. But, but I also just appreciate that it's like in each of these stories, like the, the, the romance is its own, like the relationship is its own like delicious discovery instead of like, here's how we follow this playbook of a man with broad shoulders and you know,
Eva: Yeah.
Kyley: Um,
Eva: just glad to hear you're reading 'cause I know that's a litmus test for you. Anytime you tell me that you're reading, I know you're doing good.
Kyley: yes. I would love at some point this year to return to like, like I used to read really smart books, and I do, I do. I mean, I, I, that's not true. I'm also reading Bell Hooks All About Love,
which I guess is, which is, [01:00:00] um, which is great. So I am, I, but I, I do miss reading like more substantive literary fiction, and I'm just having a lot of fun
Eva: But also it's so fun to read shit, trash, smut, all that stuff. It's so good just to just, and just to be a voracious reader. It's fun too.
Kyley: Yeah. It just feel, it feels, it feels very, my heart is very, my inner child is supremely happy about it.
Eva: All right. Lovely. Hello, universe listeners. We love you so, so, so, so, so much. If you like this episode, share it with your friends, subscribe, send us a review. All of that stuff really, really helps and we love you so much.
Kyley: We'll see you next week.