Why does pleasure feel so scary sometimes? Why do we crave it—and then push it away? In this episode, we’re diving deep into the paradox of pleasure: why it’s often the thing we most want and most resist. We explore how pleasure isn’t just about indulgence—it’s a spiritual practice, a doorway to presence, and even a tool for ego dissolution. Some of the questions we ask: • What does it really mean to let ourselves feel pleasure, instead of chasing it? • Why might pleasure be the thing we’ve been looking for all along? • What role does pleasure play in our spiritual journey? If you’ve ever felt afraid to want too much, worried that joy might be selfish, or wondered whether you’re “allowed” to feel good—this episode is for you.
Why does pleasure feel so scary sometimes?
Why do we crave it—and then push it away?
In this episode, we’re diving deep into the paradox of pleasure: why it’s often the thing we most want and most resist. We explore how pleasure isn’t just about indulgence—it’s a spiritual practice, a doorway to presence, and even a tool for ego dissolution.
Some of the questions we ask:
• What does it really mean to let ourselves feel pleasure, instead of chasing it?
• Why might pleasure be the thing we’ve been looking for all along?
• What role does pleasure play in our spiritual journey?
If you’ve ever felt afraid to want too much, worried that joy might be selfish, or wondered whether you’re “allowed” to feel good—this episode is for you.
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206
[00:00:00] hello.
Hello, universe, community. We are back and this time we're gonna talk about pleasure 'cause it seems like it's on a topic that's really alive in Kylie's life. I think it's a topic that's actually probably pretty relevant to the times that we're in, and we're gonna talk a little bit about that too.
Also, we all need more pleasure in our lives for sure. Like as a spiritual healing practice.
yes, and just before you hit record, I like went to take a sip of my fresh cup of coffee and you know, sometimes when you make a cup of coffee or cup of tea and it's just like [00:01:00] perfect, perfect temperature,
Yeah. Mm-hmm.
of balance, like Exactly. And so as we were, as we were hitting record on our pleasure episode, I just was like. Just dying of delight for this cup of
Yes.
feels like a good, it feels like a good start, you know?
Can we just talk about like the elusive perfect temperature of a cup of coffee or tea? Because for me it's always like, I kind, it just, it's such a short window, you know? It's either too freaking hot and then I set it down and then I like forget about it, and then I come back and it's too cold. It's like when we get it, when it's just like, just Right.
It is such a gift.
yes. And for people who I feel like my Taurus is showing, that would be the whole theme of the episode is like Kylie's Taurus, uh, self is showing, because to me, also the ritual of drinking a cup of coffee and tea is that like the amount of tea left matches the temperature. So if I have like
Totally. Yes.
like super full and super hot, and then if it's halfway through it, it's supposed to be less hot. if it's, yes, [00:02:00] there's a whole, there's a whole thing about
It's an, it's an, it's an art people. It's an art. Yeah. Yeah. Okay.
this, this is how, this is how intensely devoted I am to the pleasure of my tea, coffee, that if it gets too cold, I will put it in the microwave, but then I have a whole system where I will put it in a new mug because if the mug is too hot, if the mug is not the appropriate like temperature, I have to put it in a new mug.
I get that, you know, I respect 'cause that's how important I think like the perfect mug is. But I will say I don't have a microwave. So that's been, yeah, it's a whole thing. Not having a microwave sometimes it's actually kind of great, you know, in, in some ways. And also a huge pain in the butt. And I will say listeners, Kylie and I both came onto this podcast just like in a, just, just beautiful, happy moods.
We were just like, we're in a great mood today. And I wanna share that more and like how we got there because I think, um, for all sorts of reasons. [00:03:00] It's important that we elevate our moods,
Mm.
and I think we've Yeah, and we deserve it. We deserve it. And so we wanna talk about, like, how do we get here?
Yes, yes. And, and I think we've talked before about like feeling bad for feeling good and how much that is not actually of benefit to, to anyone. Um, but before
Mm-hmm.
discussing Pleasure, I do have something coming up that I wanna share with everybody about. First of all, depending on when you're listening to this, there's a couple more days to sign up for firebrand, so that's donation based.
It's a six week live program where we're gonna talk about what it looks like to build a business and speak powerfully that changes both the external and the
Mm-hmm.
want businesses where we feel like we're thriving and also we're contributing to the greater collective Good. So come join that. And because I am a creature of infinite ideas, I have a brand new thing that is about to [00:04:00] come and I want, I want to tease it now, and I am like, I just got tears in the back of my eyes about how excited I am about, this also a six week program and it is called Money In the Fawn Response
Ooh. Ding, ding, ding, ding, ding. That's so good. Sorry. 'cause we also had like a great conversation about the fawn response recently, like Kylie and I feel passionately about the fawn
Yeah.
as a, as a nervous system response. 'cause we both do it.
Yes. And if you're listening to the show, I feel like you, there's a really good chance, you know, our demographic the Fawn response, which is people pleasing perfectionism, imposter syndrome, self abandonment, codependence, and. I've been working on a resource for a long time that I've been calling money on the phone response, but I thought that it was going to be, well at first it even knows this 'cause she does projects with me. First it was going to be a free three part thing where I was gonna have one meditation, one mini lesson, and
I know where this is going. Yeah.
[00:05:00] And then it just kept being like, no, it needs more context. No, it needs, so I've recorded like a whole robust like arc of understanding money and the FA response and how we can. Actually feel safe receiving.
And, um, and, but I still thought it was gonna be self-study and then all of a sudden I saw crystal clear that the self-studying component wanted a community aspect to go along with it. And that it's actually like we need each other to process, to witness each other, to like, you know, be accountable in some of these like, trickier questions.
So now it's a six week course, the, the, the, the curriculum's already recorded and I really, really love it. Um, and actually can't wait and I think it might be the best thing that I've ever made. So, yeah.
Yeah, I know you've been really big on, you know, studying and learning about the FA response and, uh, it's been, anyway, I'm just excited about this [00:06:00] because when you, I, when I've noticed the spon fond response being alive in me, it's like big, you know, you just kinda start seeing it everywhere and you see how painful and unhelpful it is, and no doubt, like, you know, with all programs.
Of this caliber. It's like you're learning about money, but you're really learning about the self, and it's, I can just see already that it could just be a huge self realization experience.
the specific intersection of money and self abandonment. If you have a core, if you have core programming that's rooted in fawning, your core programming is that it's not safe for you to have your needs met.
Mm-hmm.
And money is the energy that we
Mm.
meet our needs. So you, your core programming, if you have a strong phone response on some level, actually actively doesn't feel safe having
Mm-hmm.
money you need to have.
So, um, we can't. We actually can't receive the way we want to receive unless we can unhook the FA response from money
Yeah.
it's [00:07:00] saying danger, danger, don't have your needs met, don't have enough money, don't be powerful. Like it's running interference on all. So you're out there like working your ass off your business or in your job, but meanwhile, your core programming is like,
Yep.
working
Mm-hmm.
abandoning, don't let anything come in
Yep. Yep. Uh, I can totally see like hand raised where I'm guilty of that too. So good. Okay. I love this. Amazing.
So, uh, get, get on in here for all of those things,
Cool.
things.
Yay.
Okay.
Fun, fun, fun. All right. Let's talk about pleasure. I'm gonna give you the stage because I kind of feel like you had addressed this last week offline, just, you know, offline, just two girls, two besties chatting. How do, what's like alive for you about this theme of pleasure?
So life has been asking me for a long time. I get this question that will show up and drop into my heart, which is like, what do you want? uh, I often [00:08:00] have some answer. And also even as I'm giving the answer, I can feel that there's, I can feel that there's like almost a contraction around my answer to
Mm-hmm.
Um, and it just has been coming back over and over and over again for a couple of years. Like, what do you want? in the joy last week I shared this book that I am like, kind of infatuated with called a, the Touch of Iron and Gold. Anyway, a scene in this book that I think, captures the essence of what I'm trying to say, and one of the characters says to the other. Um, tell, like, tell me what you want and stop saying, just because this one character keeps being like, well, I, if I, if I could just stand at your side for the rest of time, I would be happy. And he's like, no, no, no. Stop saying, just stop minimizing, stop saying that you'd accept breadcrumbs. Like, tell me what you want so that I can give it to you. Um, and that feels like that's what life has been saying over and over again is like, what do you actually want? And, and I think sometimes we don't know the answer, right? That's what we're [00:09:00] trying to figure
Mm-hmm.
we can have or not what we, so all that's been like kind of rumbling in the background for a while. And then this week in particular, it was like this grand curtain reveal that was like, oh, what you want is pleasure.
Mm-hmm.
Like what you want is to have a life that feels richly, deliciously full. Pleasure, and that
Mm.
like a million different facets and ways that that can, we can experience, right?
Pleasure has a million flavors, but what is the thing that you really, really want? You want pleasure?
Yeah. Wait, can I pause you right there? I think it's also just important to note, I love that this is a question that you've been meditating on for years. You know, this isn't, this is like a deep introspection of like, this is just like you've been asking yourself for a week. It's like the questions that span years.
Mm-hmm.
I think there's like a [00:10:00] profoundness there of like getting, like really getting clear and I think the answer changes over time also as well. And there's also a practice there of letting our, you know, experiencing our evolution. But I'm curious, like, did this feel, did this feel like a mic drop moment for you?
Were you like, oh, like holy shit. Like I've been asking myself for a while and there's some clarity coming in.
And I think it's felt like all the other times that I've answered this question, it's felt like the answer that I was giving was only a partial answer when I always said that there felt like there was a contraction around it. I think it's because it felt like of in the right direction, but there's something else that you want even more, or there's something deeper, there's something under the thing. Um, so yeah, it did feel like a mic drop moment, but also as you and I have said many times before, the mic drop moments that are also really obvious where you're like, oh, of course,
Oh my God. I know. Seriously.
fucking
It's so obvious. Yeah.
lay in the, in a field and eat strawberries. Of course. Like, why, [00:11:00] why would I want, why would I want anything else?
Mm-hmm.
Because we think we have to, right? Because we think, uh, we have to, and there's also, we can talk about this more like, pleasure doesn't mean the absence of pain,
Mm-hmm.
there's can be delicious. Pleasure in pain and a whole range of ways that we could look at that, but it's about like, yeah, like the desire that we have, the true, my true spiritual desires.
Like I wanna fucking feel good.
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Yeah. It's interesting because, um, that's, this is, this is more about desire, which we've recorded podcasts about desire too, about like getting clear on what you want, and that in itself is a really cl like, there's, hmm. Skillfulness and it be able to, to nail down what it is that we want.
'cause you're saying it's actually not that obvious sometimes. Or [00:12:00] it's not that simple. Like we don't always know what we want. But I will say that I think my version of this is like, you know, if I could have, if I had like everything that I wanted in the world ever, and I knew that it was mine and it was, and I was secure and it could never be taken away from me, and I was like, you know, on top of my game and all of that, it's like, what do I want that for?
You know, it's always, and then like, what would that give me? It's always like, okay, and then what? And then, then what? And then when you and you and you like, scale it down to the lowest common denominator. And for me the answer is like, oh, I just wanna have fun. Like, that's it. I don't have a good time. Like, why the fuck am I here on earth?
It's like, but the answer is different for other people, you know? But for some of it, it's like creativity or beauty or connection, intimacy, discovery. But for me it's like fun and also peace is there too. But also why do I want peace so that I can have fun? Like it's just,
yes,
that always comes up really clearly for me.
And, and I think too, um, that we. I think that there's been periods in my life where when I asked that [00:13:00] question, what I wanted most of all was like, I just wanna feel safe. I just wanna feel safe. Right? And there's like, just like this desperate hunger to feel safe. I wasn't interested in pleasure, I just wanted, like, that wasn't even on the radar because I was honest with myself, safety felt so far away.
Mm-hmm.
so, um, and so I do think that the answer changes. And I also think, um, that sometimes it like builds, it builds on itself. Like I almost have this image in my mind. This might come into money in the fund response,
Mm-hmm.
whole curriculum of the course of like, the foundation is needs and safety, and then there's this, then there's above that.
Yeah. The, the Maslow hierarchy of needs. Yeah. Mm-hmm.
like ki it's ki it's Kylie's version
Mm-hmm.
like safety and then power and then pleasure.
Mm-hmm.
feels right. Safety and needs power, feeling powerful. Um, which is to say freedom and having agency. And then on top of that is pleasure. Joy, ecstasy, and so, but we, so you, you [00:14:00] can't really touch, pleasure and ecstasy in a sustained way if you don't feel safe
Yep.
or powerful.
Yeah, that's interesting. So I totally hear you on safety being the thing that we desire. I still feel that way, you know what I mean? Like, it's not, but I can, I can, I get myself to fun, but I, I just wanna say a name, like the importance of safety to me personally. Like I get that so much and when I am in fight or flight or in a stressed out moment in my life, it's always, I still come back to that, you know, like
Yeah.
it's such, it's such.
I wanna say it's a luxury, but I don't think it should be a luxury. It's just, it's just such a beautiful thing when we can feel safe.
Yeah.
But
there's so much fucking pleasure in it, right?
yeah.
like that feeling of like actually feeling safe, even if it's feel like even if everything's upside down. And what you're giving yourself is safety amidst unsafety. [00:15:00] Like, oh, there is so much pleasure in that sensation,
Yes, yes. I just, I think I wanna be mindful of like, of the hierarchy of like one being more advanced than the other or whatever. 'cause I, I get what you're saying about like building on itself, but I guess I do, but I do get a sense for me personally, like I think I can access this desire for fun when I'm not in survival mode.
Like when I, I need safety. When I'm in survival mode and I was just in survival mode a couple months ago in Taiwan. If you guys, anyway, you know my, for those who don't know, like my. Life was totally upside down, taking care of my parents' health issues. And so at the time, great, safety is all I need. I couldn't even imagine having fun.
Yes.
You know what I mean? So I think maybe what I am reflecting back to you is like you're just in a place where safety is there and you're not in survival mode. So now you can move up these, I don't know, I don't wanna call it a level, but experience this other thing of like fun
Yes.
or pleasure, what you call pleasure.
and I think you're making a really good point, [00:16:00] which is like, yeah, I don't, I don't think it's helpful to see them as like hierarchical because that creates this idea that like, one is better than
Mm-hmm.
And that like, oh, like pleasure is like a more elevated state than safety.
And like, I don't, I think that's actually really toxic. Um, but I think, I think I also think like in, in my life when I've been, when I pursued pleasure and like prioritized it in a way that was like disembodied that didn't have, like, I didn't have a sense of agency and freedom or, and power and I didn't have a sense of safety.
There's that like, uh, like. Destabilizing edge to the pleasure, right? Like, it's like, it's like jittery at the edges, or like J like has like sharp edges to it, right? Like it doesn't feel, it doesn't, even, the pleasure doesn't feel safe
Yeah, it's either fleeting or it's grasping or there's like a sense of, uh, there's not substance there or something. Yeah. Mm-hmm.
Yeah. And that's again, not to say like, don't pursue pleasure until you've figured [00:17:00] out your safety. I don't mean, I'm just watching my own experience and like deepening into safety, into feeling like freedom and agency and into then like, oh, pleasure. Right? That's the thing that I actually want. Um, which is, anyway, let me ask you this question. What do you think pleasure is like? We're throwing the word around a lot, but what do you think pleasure is?
Oh my God. I love this question because I do think like in some ways I'm a pleasure queen.
I know that's why I was excited to talk about this with you. [00:18:00] Mm-hmm.
natural to me. I think almost to the extent where it can be problematic because I, we've, I've talked about it before, you know, back in the day when I was doing like a ton of drugs or whatever, I have an overindulgent self.
You know, I think that's kind of just like naturally more tamed down. But I can just say that like, that part of me that like is not apologetic about like the deliciousness of life is alive in me. So pleasure for me is like something I've been learning to own is just being like deeply passionate about being comfortable and what I call about comfort.
About comfort, like,
Hmm.
and. God, it's such a luxury. It's so pleasurable to be in comfort. We've talked about this, like you and I both like nice clothes that with the material just feels really nice on your skin and like, I'm so good at getting cozy, you [00:19:00] know, just like the blankets and the pillows and being surrounded by beauty like that to me is very, very pleasurable.
And food, to me, it's like all about the senses, you know? It's like being so alive in your senses. And it's always been, I've also said like the three, three things that I love most are like sex, music and food. It's all senses. It's all like, I taste the food in my mouth, I hear the music and it gives me the chills.
I, you know, engage in like just beautiful body movement. All that is so pleasurable. And I think my life is very, there's a lot of pleasure in my life right now, which I'm. I keep saying this quote, it's like a roomy quote, like, accept your new good fortune. And I'm just like, okay, I'm just gonna accept my new good fortune, you know, instead of like pushing it away and blah, blah, blah.
It's a work in progress, but it's like pleasure is is like the de, the delicious sexiness of life and then like being able to let that in.
[00:20:00] Yeah. And I, I love that you're saying being able to let it in, right? Because we can be, we can be surrounded by good fortune. Just not in a space where we can really let it in. And that's okay. I've had plenty of moments in my life, right, where like lots of blessings were around me, but I wasn't really in, in a space.
I could like see them, but I wouldn't let myself touch
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
But yeah, I feel like pleasure is specifically about the letting them in.
Yes,
of like
because you can't enjoy it if you don't let it in.
so yeah, I'm thinking of like the sun on your face and then pleasure is like tilting your head up and stopping to like really let it wash over you.
How beautiful and warm it feels when the sun is on your face.
there's this thing about savoring, which I see you do a lot sometimes, like, I love seeing you. It's like, mm, yeah. Get it, girl. Like, you know, just even at the beginning of this call, you're like, really savoring that sip. You know, it's like, it's, um, I can just, you know, as you were talking about, like, as she was saying this listeners Kylie, like tilted her head up, you know, to [00:21:00] at, to emulate, like receiving the sunlight on her face.
It's like, I think you savor things,
Mm.
which is
for seeing that. I've taught my kid my ki I've taught that to my kids. Like, you know, you've got a Taurus for a mom when my kids will literally, 'cause you know, like your kids, you get like a thing of candy and you're just like, how fast can I eat? I remember doing that when I was a kid, right?
And so I have taught my kids like, it's such a beautiful thing to savor it. Like really taste each piece of candy at a, at a time, right? Like, don't rush through it. Um, you know, not from a like. Don't be growth and greedy, but just like, no, savor
like maximum enjoyment, essentially.
this ple, maximize this pleasure.
Yes.
so it's really cute because they will say it to me sometimes, like, they'll be like, mom, mom, I'm savoring this mom, I'm savoring this,
That's so cute.
Which just basically means I'm eating it slowly.
But you know what's so funny is like, you know, they talk about this a lot in mindfulness where [00:22:00] it's like, it just be mindful about it, but I really like this, essentially savoring is mindfulness. But mindfulness can sometimes get the te the like rep of being like, oh, this is something I have to do. And it's like a, it's like work or whatever, but I like maybe changing the word of mindfulness to savoring it.
It's essentially what you're doing is like to, to let in. Maximum enjoyment, and I'm like, oh, I want that.
yeah. Yes, yes, yes, yes. Um, so and so, it's interesting. So this week in particular where this theme has been really alive for me is, um. Well, it's interesting because I have felt my body has been asking, I mean, it's interesting just to know how much we're talking. The pleasure keeps being physical here, right?
We're, we're talking about a lot of like physical things, and I don't think that's the only part of pleasure, although I think it's obviously a huge part of it. my body has been really, really asking me to like go for
Mm-hmm.
Um, and I was [00:23:00] watching so much resistance, like just um, I like walking.
Like it's
Mm-hmm.
ways to exercise is just to like, I get a lot of walking trails near me, like throw on my sneakers and just meander,
Yes.
And I just kept putting it off and, and my body was like, Hey, you know what? We would feel really good if we would walk. Like it was like the desire was there, the ask was there and there was so much resistance.
And so I was like watching like what is in this? And I realized that there was actually some. Like anxiety about feeling good,
Mm. Mm-hmm.
the resistance to going on a walk had to do with like, because then we're just gonna feel, we're gonna feel, it's like, it, it was this, um, this just like post winter contraction kind of energy, which we could talk about both winter as the season I'm coming out of or as the like emotional season, like
Mm-hmm.
right?[00:24:00]
Of like feeling good is vulnerable. And so I could just feel like on some level my body and heart were like, you don't wanna feel good, is if we moved. And then the, was like, yeah, but you know, feeling good is like, I'm not sure about that. And so there was just this contraction around around pleasure, which on one level was about you'll just feel everything and everything's too much, but also some real fear around the vulnerability that is feeling good. Um, and the vulnerability that is pleasure.
Mm-hmm.
interesting.
Yes.
watched that and then I just said a little prayer that was like, okay, well this feels like a dumpy place to just stand me.
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
can like requesting help on getting out of like, you know, of, of shifting outta that. And so then I, and then I did finally go on this walk that I had been feeling called to do, I've gone a walk every single day since then. But, um, but on the walk it was just the, the whole walk just felt [00:25:00] like this like study in pleasure in particular of like, the sensory experience and the softy softness. And I stood and I talked to trees for like, I talked to this like, pack of trees for like 45
Mm-hmm.
just like poured out my heart to these beautiful trees.
And, um, I don't have a, don't have a tidy bow to put on this particular anecdote, but it, I was really struck by how much. Fear there was in, in really just letting pleasure in. And obviously then it starts showing up and you're like, oh yeah, right. More please.
Yeah. Okay. Let's like, I wanna unpack that a little bit, but before we do, you asked me the question of like, what's pleasure for me? And that was a version of it. 'cause like you were saying, I think there's so many different iterations of pleasure. But I do wanna throw the question back at you. Is there anything you would add to that?
What is pleasure for you?
So, listeners, I just had to try [00:26:00] three different times to answer this question because the answer feels. Big and hard to put into words like, what is pleasure? There's a lot of things I can point to that are pleasurable, right? Things that, things in my life that give me pleasure or moments or ways that I feel pleasure. But what I keep thinking of is this particular like state of being that I arrive in sometimes that I sometimes to myself call like a kind of state of spiritual ecstasy. Um,
Hmm.
which is I just feel flooded with this sense of wellbeing. Like, it just like takes me over and everything feels okay in that place and everything feels sweet and luxurious, even if it's pain or grief or, um, something I might otherwise call discomfort. [00:27:00] There's just in those moments, like I had a moment like that this week. I had a couple of moments like that this week. And it's funny, like I had put on my calendar I was gonna, there's a project that I owed somebody that was, that was due and, and it was actually impossible for me to do it. And it's like a fun project. I don't mind doing it, but it was actually impossible for me to do it because it felt like my body, my, like, my whole sense of being was just like so full of this sense of, of pleasure, of peace, of contentment, of joy. And the thought of like anything felt insane, right?
It just felt completely impossible. Like almost like my limbs were too heavy. Um, like that I would like open my laptop and look at this, you know, Google document was
too Inc. Incongruous, like these two things [00:28:00] couldn't exist in the same reality.
And not from a place of like, you know, other times it's like, oh God, I like I'm happy and I don't wanna do my taxes 'cause they're ter It wasn't that, it's not
Mm-hmm.
this, and I've had it before. I've had, you know, I've had this, it comes and goes, but it's like I wa the very first time I really felt this was when I was sales rep, just before we reconnected and started the podcast and I read, uh, I read Eckhart Toe's, um, a
A new Earth.
and, and it like. I mean, I had already been going through this like, you know, what we might call spiritual awakening, but that book in particular just like like ripped something out of me. It was, and I remember, I remember like driving to do my job and like just being so fucking happy to drive around and see like the birds flying on the highway.
And then I would get to these college campuses where my job was to like knock on people's doors and talk about books. And it was like laughable to me that I would even go [00:29:00] and do that. Like, I was like, what? Like that's just the most insane thing. Um, and so I didn't do it that, I mean, I, I mean I, I, was the number one sales rep, but also I, I was like mostly just looked at some fucking birds,
Yeah.
and I remember that feeling like so clearly. Like I would even go like, you know, like, yeah, I would like go to work and be productive and then I was just like, oh, I actually just have to sit here and just be full of this feeling
Mm-hmm.
um.
Contentment.
Contentment.
Mm-hmm.
Um, that, that is like, the pleasure that has particularly been alive this week. Um, and that's the answer that is coming up.
I love that you're speaking to this spiritual, you know what you were calling spiritual ecstasy, and I don't, I'm not assuming that you mean that all pleasure for you takes place in this form, but it [00:30:00] sounds like what you're saying, what's alive for you this week was being able to access that more.
Is that true? Mm-hmm.
Yes. And like seeing the spectrum, like it's, I feels like this week has been a. Study in the spectrum of pleasure, right? So the pleasure of like how soft the pine needles feel under my hands when I sat on the ground. Uh, and like the pleasure of good sex or the pleasure of, you know, a meal when you're really hungry.
So it's like it's, it feels like it's been all these different facets
Yeah.
what is pleasure and how does it show up, and how do you invite it in and what if you weren't afraid of it? What would you do? Um, and then it feels like the week kind of culminated in this reminder of this state that think I've really felt for a little while. Um, but it also felt like, oh, this is, this is truth. Like this just like [00:31:00] contentment is truth. And I could actually live here a lot more often if I wasn't afraid of it.
Yes, yes, yes, yes. Wow, that's amazing. I think about this actually quite often because I think what you're speaking to is what all of the spiritual sage. Of our time and before our time talk about is like, it's, um, this is available to us in every now moment. It's, it's constant. It's, it's the aliveness and the richness of being alive.
And it, it's, it, it is like literally, it's like I think about this all the time of like, because I think I go in and outta these states where I'm like, suddenly where I'm really caught up in something in my head or life is stressful or, you know, and, and I, it's like I don't even, I just don't have access to it, which is not good or [00:32:00] bad.
It's just that like, that's just the phase of my life that I'm in. And then I'll have these moments where I just like drop in honestly from doing my spiritual work. And that's oftentimes actually it happens when I'm questioning, I. Investigating my thoughts, like investigating anything that feels really eliminating in my life, like through the work and different, different practices.
And then I like look up and I'm like, whoa, do you ever just look up and everything's more vivid? Do you, do you ever get that? It's like, everything's like more alive. And I'm like, wait a second, this is just like how it's been this whole time. I just didn't see it. And it, and it's, it's literally there for us to access all the time.
But I, I wanna be really careful about saying that because my personality is like, when I hear that, I start to think like, okay, well now I'm missing it. I'm doing it wrong, blah, blah, blah. Like, like, I'm not experiencing the spiritual ecstasy. I don't know. And I think when we take right or wrong out of it, then it just becomes [00:33:00] neutral.
But I do think it's actually helpful to speak to this so that other people, you know, like we all go in and out of it, but like, so everyone like needs a reminder at sometimes and then, and then you get there and you're like, oh yeah, this is like what they were talking about. It's like,
Mm-hmm.
It's like, especially a nature, I think can be a really a, a nice place to be able to drop into that more easily.
But we really see it like the abundance of life that is supporting us in every fucking moment. And it's so beautiful and it's so alive and we're so content when we're just here, like with the here and now.
Yeah. Yes, yes, yes. And the, one of the things that I saw this week in particular was, um, Again, I wanna kind of, I think I wanna talk about like fear of pleasure and why we might fear pleasure,
That's like the next, the next place I wanna move this conversation to because that's like what the piece I wanna unpack.
yeah, but what I [00:34:00] think what was interesting, especially when I went on the walk was that I'd, I'd been feeling for a little while, just this like, like that I was in this, like in-between
Mm-hmm.
like, like, um, yeah, like a, some sort of liminal
Yep.
and something feels kind of stuck and it was not like bad and full of tons of suffering, but I just had this feeling of like, almost like holding your breath kind of energy. And I kept like for the problem essentially. Right. I kept like at it and then I went for a walk and I could just feel like the trees laugh. Like the problem was just that you weren't. You were waiting, that you were holding your breath, that you were in your life, which is to go for the walk.
Mm-hmm.
is that you were like working on the problem instead of letting us take care of it for you, which is just to be out here
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
um, basically like, yeah. And that, that really, that also really struck me. 'cause I know one of [00:35:00] the things I can do is just get kind of like addicted to the loop of through the next like obstacle or Right.
I, I like, I like untangling the knots of my own subconscious. That is a source of pleasure for
Mm-hmm.
that, but I can get caught in it as like a condition to
To feel pleasure.
Right.
Yeah, yeah,
like, oh. Or like you could just have all the pleasure and also keep untangling those knots if that's a fun side project for you.
yeah.
they're not
But that's not the gateway to pleasure. Yeah, exactly. You don't have to do the untangling to feel pleasure, like you can just feel pleasure now without the caveat eventually.
Yeah. Yeah. and one of the things that was also interesting to me again this week in particular to watch, is how. Yeah, I've, uh, watching actually how fucking scared of pleasure I have been like, there [00:36:00] was a part of me that was like, can we just go back to the place where we were crying every day? I really knew exactly how to do that.
You know, like it was a real, that was such a easy, it was painful. It was very intense, but I knew exactly what the assignment was, right? Which is like, oh, like, and, but, but now you want me to just go like, lay in the woods and trust that I'm fine. And then also like, let me receive and, and receive lots of things like, which was interest.
So tangibly also what was interesting was I went for this walk and you know, in the spirit of receiving, I was like, okay, you know what life I want a new client, you know, like, let's do it. Let's, let's, let's make some magic. And so I went for this walk in the woods, literally someone who's been off and on about hiring me for months, by the end
Mm.
to be my new one-on-one client.
Like, you can't make this shit
Mm-hmm.
But then also later in the day, I like. Actually saw the outline of a book that I think that I wanna write, which I've been talking for a long time, that I wanna write a book. I was like, I don't know what it is, but I think I wanna write a book. I saw it outline this money in the fa [00:37:00] response, like revealed itself fully as what it actually wants to be like, meaning there was so much receiving that happened, right? the moment I let pleasure in, which was to walk in the warm, uh, warm weather in the woods, had received all of these things. And I, it's like, I, I think we make this, we, we flip it. We think, oh, once I get the things I need, then I'll feel pleasure, right? Once I get a new client, then I will, I feel, and I know this shit, right, but it's like a whole new level of feeling it.
Once I get the new client, then I will feel happy. And it's like, no, no, no. Practice the pleasure, practice receiving,
Right?
receive. And then that's what softly opens you up to receive more.
Mm-hmm. Yep. Yep. That is how it goes. We got the order wrong.
I think we get the order wrong [00:38:00] it's really scary to receive and because pleasure is really vulnerable.
Yeah, let's talk about that. 'cause that's a theme more for you, I think, than for me. I think I have my own version of that,
Yeah.
but, but it's this all the same. Meaning anytime you, okay, I'll, I'm jumping ahead. Why, why don't we just talk about that a little bit more? What,
I think you're right. By the way, I, I do think you, that's one of the many things I admire about you and like absorb from you is I think you are, um, yeah. Like, you let yourself have fun.
yes, that's what I mean when I said earlier, like.
you let yourself, like you, I, I do think you are someone who lets yourself like, um. Soak up goodness of life in a way that is, can't, I can't put my finger on exactly. I'm sorry. [00:39:00] I actually have to pause. I just got like, so like,
Woo hoo. Yeah, baby. Let it in. Let it in. Let it in. Mm-hmm. Yeah. Just be with it for a while and see what it has to tell you.
I can't even put into words what just happened, but that was like,
It's okay. You don't have to. If it comes to you later, great. But also sometimes it's like, yeah, there's just not language for it yet,
but if it, I don't know what the feeling is, but if it's pleasurable, then savor it.
I think that's the point. I think it's all supposed to be questionable, you know? I think it's all supposed to be safer.
I don't know, like that's the other I, I dunno if we're going back in or outta the podcast, but like, that's something else I think we could talk about in the podcast is this idea of like, you know, this constant, you brought this up before, like where pain is [00:40:00] pleasurable, which I think I get. I see. But also it's like.
I don't dunno. There's, I think there's different versions of that. Anyway, that's like a whole nother, maybe, we'll maybe we'll get to that. I wanna point on, we have like about half an hour left, so
yeah. Good point. Okay. All right. Which topic do you wanna go into more then? Which of those pathways is more fun for you?
Oh, for sure. The unpacking, like why pleasure is uncomfortable and vulnerable for you.
Okay. Okay. Alright.
I'm gonna grab something really with quick, I have a juice.
to why pain is pleasurable is like immediately I'm like, oh, we can just talk about sex. So I, you know, um,
Well, okay. 'cause, okay. Here's, uh, I, I wanna talk about both because I've had this realization recently where like, I really, like, I have a, I have masochistic tendencies, like where, where, where pain feels good and I'm not even talking about sex. I'm talking like, that's like fine. To me it's more like when actually though.
[00:41:00] This behavior is actually harmful to me.
oh.
Like, I, like, like from a psychological standpoint, I get like a high out of self-hate and that's like, actually not like in a way it's weird. It's like this, it's like, um, yeah, I get like turned on by my own self-loathing.
Oh. Oh my gosh. There's a book. I haven't read it yet, I think in part because it, I know in part because it feels too close to a book that I would wanna write, and so I'm salty that it exists,
Mm-hmm.
Kink, and I think
Oh, you have told me about that. Okay. Okay. I'm writing this down. Yeah, I'm writing it down. 'cause you've mentioned it a couple times if you like. Mm-hmm.
I feel like there's probably something really delicious and fun you could do with that. Right? Instead of making like, okay, that's the kink, so how do you engage with it and play with it in a way that's pleasurable
Right? It's go away. Yeah.
Yeah. Yeah.
That's interesting. How do I play [00:42:00] with it?
I do think that you have a really, uh, great way of giving yourself access to pleasure in a way that has been really helpful for me on many levels. But one part of it is just holding up the mirror that's like, you could have a different relationship to this, right?
Because I think I am someone who, as you said, like I do savor the Taurus in me, like knows how to savor things, but there's a different way that I can't fully put into words that I think you just give yourself access to. Like, yeah, life can be fun and joyful and easy. And um, seeing that in you has just been a reminder of like, yeah,
Mm-hmm.
doing an okay job, but you could have even more.
Mm-hmm.
I am really grateful for that.
Hmm.
just being, you
Oh, thank you.
like the pleasure of you and also the reminder that I could
Yeah.
in pleasure more.
Well, I'll say thank God I have that in me. 'cause I do think it's true. I do think I have a very playful, I don't know, childlike, sort of fun side, but I think it's, [00:43:00] uh, it, it bounces out by equally like self-harming, like self-hate, like just over, you know, all this insanity in my head too. So thank God.
I think it's a weird paradox. Um, but I will say, but I think what you experienced, this idea, idea that pleasure is, um, vulnerable is something that we, a lot of this experience in similar ways. It may not be pleasure for other people. I think for me it's like to be loved feels really vulnerable for other people anyway.
Yeah. There's different versions of that. So I wanna unpack what feels so vulnerable. I have, I have a theory by the way that I wanna offer, but I first I want to like hand it to you like.
That's so fascinating. Yeah. To think of being loved, being vulnerable.
Like, what are you afraid would happen if you like, let in all the pleasure
Mm-hmm.[00:44:00]
unapologetically all the time.
Oh, a de a thousand percent. That would completely blow me out. Right? Like, I just would, like, I would cease to exist. Right. It just feels like, um, uh, it's totally about like loss of control. Uh, there's some flavor of it that's like, I might get hurt. Right. Um, the vulnerability of like, you let something in and it can hurt you.
Right. So the, like, there, there's that. But then even bigger, even beyond that is like. This is really interesting to say. It's out loud. It's just like all cease to exist.
Yep.
the, if all of the ecstasy and pleasure and
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
beingness of life floods me, I will cease
Oh, okay. I'm getting so excited about it because that was exactly my theory and I'm like, okay, let's fucking go. Okay. Because I think you're right. You would die. And I think it's about letting that version of you die. It, to me it's like an ego story. It's like a [00:45:00] story you're, that you're identified with, that you're unconsciously or consciously, but like you just have your idea like this is the Kylie that I know, this is the world that I know.
This is the limitation that I know. This is like essentially like the
super ingrained since you were, you know, maybe even pre-birth version of being in the world of like, this is like the limit of pleasure that's like allowed and this is just like how I move through the world. And so in order to let more pleasure in that version of you has to die. And that is really fucking scary.
It is a death. And so we clinging on to. That identity, that 'cause that feels like so much safer. And I've seen in myself that I will fight to the fucking death for that identity rather than actually let the goodness in. And that's been so fascinating to see. And I wanna tell you a story about that wait in a bit.
But yeah, you were gonna say something.
think it also feels like totally yes. To the death and yes to the, like the clinging. And also it's totally outta control, [00:46:00] right? Like if you have an orgasm like you, the, it is a moment of Totally. You're not in control anymore, right? And so, like, I think ecstasy is inherently connected to being in fucking charge.
Mm.
And I can feel, when you're talking about it's a death, what I could feel was this, like immediately I felt the clutch of this little self that was like, yeah, we can't, we can't let every, we can't let everything else be in charge. Like we have to grab onto the little bit of control that we have, which at this moment is being used to like, manage the flow inflow of pleasure.
Yeah,
keep it, keep it contained. Um.
I mean, I, so I think that's,
of control
it's outta that control feeling. And so like, so therefore I feel safer to not let in the pleasure. And I think there's just like an opportunity for you to like really test that out in your life and be like, you know, like, is that true? And, and but to like, [00:47:00] to live it,
Hmm.
actually let in all this pleasure, like.
Uh, will I actually be out of control? And it's interesting because you already have experiential experience of seeing how actually when you let in pleasure all of these things click and come in. You know what I mean? So like, but it's almost like, I think it takes courage to be like, and that's like one, that's a theme that I'm playing around with a lot recently is I feel like life is being like, okay, you're touching into freedom and you know, something, speech, you believe things intellectually, but like you really wanna find out that's on you, girl.
Like, go and test out this. Limitation or this perceived or this illusion of limitation in your life and see how far you can really go while also taking care of your nervous system essentially. So you don't like blow yourself out. But it's almost like, but this is where like the love comes in where I feel like life is so generous and life is so on your side and life is so [00:48:00] here to support you to like reach complete self realization that she's like, and I am here to show you the unlimited nature of you and, and this existence.
Like if you dare to push your fucking limit of letting go of or and, and like touching into that feeling like I'm gonna be outta control. If I let in more and more and more pleasure, like I will catch you. You know? That's how I feel. That's what I believe. You know, if, if like we're willing to go into this, like a lot of love
Yeah. Yeah.
and I'm, for me, I'm getting this energy of like, let's fucking go. Like I want you to go into pleasure and.
This is what I mean about you having like a, a very specific kind of gift around this though, because I'm actually feeling woozy I am like, I am getting some like EVA codes, you know?
Yes, but the wooziness is like, and this is what you do for me. So often it's like, you know, I've, I've been in some like, uncomfortable situations, and then you just say, oh, I'm so [00:49:00] excited for you. You know, because you can see the possibility in it. And like, I can feel, I can sense you feel like the discomfort of this.
And I'm like, that's good. It's good that you're in discomfort because it means that you are like approaching some limit, some perceived limit that you have. And, and it's not even about needing to push through that. It's about allowing, allowing more pleasure. And you don't have to like force, it's not a force, it's being open.
Yep. Yes, yes, yes. And it's interesting watching like. So that I was thinking, as you were talking, I was feeling into how the fear of being out of control is also connected to the awareness that the pleasure that wants to flood in is huge. It's like sometimes I walk people through about power and people will feel like kind of like small and like, um, like, like they don't have, you know, they, they don't have a lot of access to their power.
But actually [00:50:00] what the fear is, is like, oh, no, no, I understand that I'm hugely powerful and it's kind of scary to let in, it's easier to feel like I'm small and I'm having a similar sensation of like, oh, like, there's like a devastating amount of pla of pleasure that wants to flood in through my being, into my life, into all facets of my life, and I won't be in control anymore. And it's not, it feels like in this moment, like it's actually a tidal wave. And so I'm like. okay. That was a fun week. But like, can we,
Mm-hmm.
just feel my own energy is like, okay, well this was a fun week, but like, can we like slow the roll? And everyone's like, well,
Mm-hmm.
but also that's not what you want.
What you want is to be like undone by pleasure. Um, yeah, like the knowing of the bigness of it actually is also just in the
Yeah.
vulnerable fear.[00:51:00]
I mean, I'm curious what, um, support you offer to people, to your clients when they're like, oh my God, the power feels so big. Like, I don't know what to do with it. But one thing that is helpful for me is like to get really grounded,
Mm.
like to come back into my body. Like if that all of a sudden feels like, whoa, whoa, whoa, this feels so fucking scary.
And I'm like slowly backing up. You know what I mean? It's like, it's like get on the ground, you know, whatever, whatever you do to get grounded so that you can receive the pleasure, the onslaught of pleasure that might come. It's almost like being in some sort of like plant ceremony. I can kind of see it's like, whoa.
All of a sudden I'm starting to feel it like really, really big and can I like surrender to it? And I think, but in order to surrender, there's also like not, when you're not in ceremony, there's ways that can make that feel safer, which is like to.
think that's probably also why life has been like screaming at me to go on these daily walks, right? Because they are [00:52:00] grounding and also very pleasurable and also like really easy to just receive, you know, messages, whatever. So I think life's like, yeah, girlfriend, like, we already set, we've already set you up for what you need.
Just keep, you know, keep.
Sorry, I'm just getting a really big pull right now where Ayahuasca's like Kylie's gotta come to Brazil and do, do ayahuasca.
you, didn't we? I feel like offline, we had a conversation like just last week about ayahuasca and I feel like I, can feel her like, like laughing 'cause I feel like I put in a request
Yes, you did. Yes.
ceremony. And I feel like she was like,
Mm-hmm. Yes. Yes. Because like, I just had this like experience of like. Being in ceremony. And I have those experiences a lot where like something, an onslaught of something big that's coming, and then I get really scared. [00:53:00] Right. I get really scared. We all get, we get scared and we're like, I don't know if I can handle this.
The power, the love, the joy, the blah, all like the goodness. Right?
Mm-hmm.
Um, and I think that's something that happens in Ayahuasca where it's like you can't stop it from coming. It's coming and then you survive it and you don't even have to survive it. That sounds like it has to be a, you know, but like, you, you, like, you come out on the other side and you're like, whoa.
Like, there's a sense of you don't have to be scared of these experiences, like these big experiences come and you don't have to be scared of them. And that feels, I have to say, like really nice to feel right,
Yeah.
right, right now.
what's interesting too is as you're saying that I'm being like shown, you know, obviously the intensity of like, you know, peak heartbreak last year and how clear it was for me that was like, uh, you know, sometimes I had more access to this than others, but generally speaking I was just like, all right, I'm being undone by this.
Like, I, I, I, I have no, I, it would be [00:54:00] hilarious to try and fight how much this is going to undo
Mm-hmm.
I can do is surrender to it and let, and let it, let it, let the undoing take good care of me. And, and I did, and I'm fucking proud of myself. How much like. I showed up for that. And it is so, I mean, it's amusing to watch how truly easy it was from.
Yeah. There was a kind of ease and like, oh, my assignment is to let like grief and heartbreak undo me. Here we go. And now all of life is like, how about pleasure
Mm-hmm.
I'm like, how about a little bit? Because, and it's not, it's not, I'm not feeling like some overwhelming fear,
Mm-hmm.
watching how much I'm like, okay, but what if we just do like a little bit?
And
Yes.
and, and I, and, and the answer is like, or a lot.
Yeah.
it's just really interesting to watch how much safety I felt in letting grief and heartbreak undo me.
[00:55:00] Mm-hmm.
And that looking at the idea of pleasure undoing me feels like, yeah, it feels a lot more, it feels uncomfortable in a different way and
Yeah.
really interesting to
More foreign or challenging what I am. That experience of letting heartbreak undo you and letting that onslaught come in is preparing you for right now. Like 100%. That's what I'm seeing. It's not that you, you're like, you know, we can have the story of like, oh, you do pain a lot better than you do pleasure or whatever.
No. It's like that is preparing you for now, like, it, it's, I don't know. It's like, for whatever reason, that seems very fucking clear to me. It's not a story of like, oh, you do this well and then therefore, and then you can't do this. Well, it's like, no, you already know. You can fucking do it, so let's go.
Yeah. Yes, yes. And, and I like that because there was a way in which letting the grief undo me didn't feel like a choice. Like, I could see that I had choice, but I was like, but any choice, I'm just gonna make this harder. Like, it's already happening. So I don't have a choice. [00:56:00] And I can feel that this does feel, I do feel like I have a little bit more of a choice, as in I, I do feel like I, I could like turn the knob down on the pleasure and be like, okay, that was a fun week.
Yeah.
let's catch our breath. And then, and, and, um. And also as we're having this conversation, I'm feeling like, yeah, but I want to choose to like it come and let it keep
Mm-hmm.
don't actually wanna keep turning the dial often 'cause I think that's really, that's really what I've done. I am someone who has pleasure and knows how to engage in pleasure.
And I am someone who has a very strong hand on the dial
Mm-hmm.
turn it, I turn it on and then I get what I need and then I turn it back off.
Yeah.
what's coming to me based on everything you're saying Ayahuasca having entered the chat is like, no, take your goddamn hand off the dial.
Mm-hmm.
not your job.
Yes. Yes. And it's like, and let's be a little wild, you know, let's be wild with this. But, but I think what you're speaking to is so [00:57:00] important to know that like, you are free to turn down the pleasure, turn down the dial at any moment. Like, you're totally free to do that. And I think it's important that you give yourself that permission so that you feel that sense of safety.
Like you're not forcing yourself into anything. But also like when we, you know, it's always, it's a little bit of like reverse psychology. It's not that simple, but there is something in like, you're totally free to turn down the dial and it helps us see. But like, that's not, that's not what I like, you know,
want.
if you could totally do that, great.
But also you're like, but I don't want that. It shows us what we want and what we don't want.
Yeah. Uh, yes. Yes, yes, yes.
Hmm.
And I also wanna say for listeners, 'cause I think this is really clear to you and I, but might be helpful for listeners. I don't think I, I'm not talking about, and I think, you know, that we're not talking about like pleasure as in like. And now I have to go do a bunch of things to seek out [00:58:00] pleasure, right?
Like, oh, I gotta make sure that I cook the best meals next week. It's not about that. It's like actually like letting this energy of receiving and pleasure into my life and into my body without resisting it, And not, and so for me, it feels like, um, I can feel, I can feel where my receiving is open and closed.
Like I can always, I can always tell in my heart where my like receiving is open and closed. And this feels like, and that's about receiving money. It's about receiving like attention. It's about receiving all sorts of things. what this really feels like is it's about like, just like devastating the door, just like shattering the door of the receiving where it's like I open it and I close it and I can, and I can watch it. And this feels like just shattering the door to receiving letting I. Letting it flood
A accepting your new good fortune?
Ooh.
Yes. Okay. I wanna talk about [00:59:00] like, I like that you're kind of like contextualizing this because I don't know, I. I wanna tell a story. Okay. I wanna tell a story, and then I do want to make this more, um, what's the word I'm looking for? Down to earth.
Tangible.
Tangible. Yeah. Like, because I think some, some people are listening to this and they know exactly what we're talking about.
They know where they, they have, um, where they aren't letting something good in. And then some people are like, I don't know what the fuck you're talking about. You're crazy. Like, of course I want more abundance. Of course I want more ease, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. But I actually think oftentimes it's really unconscious.
It's so unc, like it's so everyone here knows this. We think it's so much easier to learn through suffering than it is through and pain, than it is through like ease and joy and goodness. Like that's just like some weird, you know, brainwashy story that we have, especially in the spiritual world, I [01:00:00] think.
But actually no, also in colonialism.
everywhere.
Yeah.
it's everywhere.
And it's just. Um, I don't know. I think it's an invitation to just notice what your limits are, which is like, if you could have No, anyway, what? Just, just to notice what your limits are. Um, and the story that I wanna tell is like, I was, you know, so we just finished like the Love is the Power retreat in Brazil and I was doing a partnering with my friend Susan, who will hopefully be on the podcast soon.
Um, she's like an amazing facilitator of the work and it was like an no experience I've ever had before. She like totally took me into a fucking portal and, um, I think there was, there was a lot of things that happened in that experience, but something that I noticed was I was not letting in the love of my partner completely.
I had this, I like touched into this [01:01:00] piece of me that I just thought was like bad and. And horrific and feeling like the shame of these parts that I hated of myself. And she had asked me some question of like, well, what would you do if you knew that that wasn't you? Or, or if you didn't identify with those pieces of you or something, or if you just didn't feel that way.
Some question, I dunno. She asked me some question and I just saw this image of my partner, like coming in swooshing over me. And like, I was basically, I was like a crawled up the image. I was like, I was in fetal position, crawled up just feeling like all my badness. And the image was like, he just came and like, and like put his arms around me and just like loved me unconditionally.
And I just started sobbing un like uncontrollably because in that moment something really shifted this idea of like, oh, I wasn't scared that he wasn't gonna love me. I was scared that he was going to love me. And again, you're like confused 'cause you're like, of course you wanna be loved, but. It was just because of my own personal hangups.
My hangups are [01:02:00] that it's so much easier for me to keep people at a distance so that they don't have to see all of my, like, you know, I'm so stuck in perfectionism and they don't have to see all of my like vulnerable parts. It's a lot scarier and as you were saying, a lot more vulnerable to let something in, to let love in and just to be loved exactly as you are.
And I experienced like, whoa, if I let myself love, be loved exactly as I am, that story that I'm bad has to die. And I was like, oh. I was like, whoa. Like I don't even know how that's possible because that's like my number one story. That's my favorite story. Like who the fuck am I, who am I without that story, it really fe felt like a death.
And I was like, I would rather hold onto that story of like, I'm bad or unlovable or whatever, because it gives me a sense of control too. Like it's it, I know how to play that game. It's really familiar. And it was like. It was, I've said this quote before, I'm gonna say it again because I feel like each time it lands more and more, but it's like, it's the Byron Katie quote, she says, like, [01:03:00] um, fear is the last smokescreen to love.
Because essentially we're not, we're not afraid of fear. We're afraid of love because love is we where we die. And that's like, I was experiencing that in real time. I was like, oh my God, I was being loved. Love is the only thing that can dissolve ident, like ego, like love is the only thing that dissolves ego.
And so I felt like this dissolving of this story I had about myself for so long, and who, and it's, it's good to know that like I hold onto it because I don't, and I'm not like a victim in it. You know? Like, it's not some idea of like, oh, like this is just being done to me. Like I can see where I'm responsible also for holding onto these stories for dear fucking life.
But it fucking killed me because. Like, I don't know what was happening. I was just crying uncontrollably because I think letting in that love hurt so much, but it hurts so good. You know what I mean?
Yes, I
Yeah.
Yes, I do. And I think, I'm so glad you're speaking to this because we, [01:04:00] I think all of us are actually really, really afraid of the things that we want.
Yes.
it's the same time we want them and we are terrified of them, whether it's love, whether it's power, whether it's pleasure, like whatever the thing is, we. Are terrified of the things that we want. If we weren't terrified of them, uh, we would have them Right When they're, when they're, when they're in our periphery, but not totally in it is on some level because we are afraid of them.
Okay. And I.
making that like a victim blaming thing. Like
No, no, no. Totally. That's just how it is, and I'm actually wondering if that's why. It's because then if we actually finally get the thing that we want, you know, people are talking, people talk about this all the time, then some version of us has to die.
Yeah. And, and I think sometimes also related to that, it's, we, there's the conditions that we have attached to it, right? It's like, oh, well I want, know, uh, I'll use a money example. 'cause they're readily available. Like, oh, I want more money, but it will mean I have to work harder and I don't wanna work hard.
[01:05:00] So, so we, we, we, we keep it out. So sometimes it's like the conditions that are
Mm-hmm. Yep.
but I think even that is also just an identity story that we
Yeah.
that we could get rid of.
Yeah.
Even, I'm even thinking about like, Lahan, um, is a philosopher who I have not read in over a decade, but he calls, calls the orgasm, the little death and, uh, lip and uh, just like thinking about that, like that like, like to look really experience love is to die we don't always know we wanna do that, so
Yeah. I mean, well, it's really fucking vulnerable, but it's actually also really humbling because for me, the story that like I'm bad is a ego trip. It's a high for my [01:06:00] ego, it's an ego trip. It's so, you know what I mean? It's like I get to be my ego all the time, and so it's, so, it's a, it's the, it's an oxymoron or, or it's the opposite.
I think that if I let go of that story, I'm gonna be. Arrogant or something. But actually no, holding onto that story that I'm bad is the most fucking arrogant thing in the world because I'm constantly just in the story of Eva, Eva, Eva. It's all about me constantly in my own hell of me, me, me, me, me. And then I see that actually when I let go of that story, it's humbles.
I'm humbled to be wrong and I'm humbled to see that actually, you know, when I like, you know, whatever and mean my goodness or let in pleasure or let in love or whatever, that I'm actually not in my story of Eva and I'm so much more available for life. And I was wrong the whole time that I was bad 'cause I wasn't.
You know what else I'm thinking? I also think sometimes there's something in, addition to fear and, and the death, the identity death that we, that we don't want and maybe the humbling that we don't want that you're speaking to. [01:07:00] think there's also something in the experience that is perhaps pleasurable, meaning. Longing for. So I'm gonna go back to
Mm-hmm.
Make
Yes, yes.
um, longing is a delicious experience, right? As someone who like, loves a good romantic, like I wanna a slow burn. I don't actually enjoy, I
Mm.
sometimes, but I don't usually enjoy a romantic in which they bone in the first
Mm-hmm. Yep. Yep. Totally.
like, like longing is a delicious, there's so much pleasure in longing. And so if I think about like, in addition to the ego death and the fear and the vulnerability, I think there's also part of me that's like, but does that mean we have to give up longing
Mm,
of pleasure in like fantasy and wanting and desiring.
mm-hmm.
maybe if maybe there's some fear that if I just let all the pleasure come in, then I won't get that anymore. 'cause I'll now be like satisfied and fulfilled and I won't get to play the longing game
[01:08:00] right, That is a really good question. Something that I really wanna sit with for a while, and I think could be a whole other episode of like the pleasure that I get out of self-hate. I think it's like some weird, as you would call it, some weird existential kink thing.
And you and I can unpack that and maybe record another episode about it in the future.
Yes,
yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Um, yes,
I'm wondering if there's a final piece you wanna drop about or should we just roll right on into
joy, there is one more thing that I wanna say. Is that in sharing my story about how I let the love kill me and how like scary and vulnerable that was. I think I just want to invite you into the same experience of like, I think that there is, you know, some fear around letting pleasure, and you were saying like, it feels [01:09:00] so big and it, and, and I think Tom's favorite phrase is like, let it kill you.
Like let it kill you.
I actually thought of Tom's line when I was in my walk in the woods. I sat on a rocket for super long time and like a hawk flew by. I
Hmm.
was like all sorts of like amazing things. And I actually, and I did a practice that I, I do sometimes and I shared on the show where I like go, I call it like going, I go to the edge of where like receiving and resistance are living and I
Hmm.
which is always. There's, there's discomfort there. Uh, and we usually avoid it. But I made my, I make myself, you know, I sat in it and I thought of what Tom says, which is like, I think you said like, let the love burn. And I just thought of that. I was like, okay, we're just gonna sit in this and we're gonna let the love
Yes. Yeah,
And then the hawk flew by. So, you know,
yeah,
So I'm with you. I agree.
Cool. I'm excited for you. I'm excited for you. More to come. More to come. Yeah.
Okay. my [01:10:00] beloved on our
Hmm.
episode. What's bringing you joy?
Hmm. Well, I referenced how both of us just came in feeling high on life this morning in really good moods. And I don't know if I had anything specific to attribute it to, but it was just one of those moments where life around me was like so beautiful. And I was just in the kitchen like, you know, almost.
Crying with gratitude. 'cause Yeah, maybe in a way the joy is just like the noticing and the letting in. It's the noticing and the letting in and being like, and by, by letting in for me, like the reason it's so hard for me to let in is 'cause I oftentimes feel guilty, undeserving guilty, worried about other people.
Like, can I, can I, you know, is it morally okay for me to be this happy when there's so much suffering in the world? Um, and more, and anyway, I can say more about that ongoing journey, of course. But it was like, I guess what's boy bringing joy [01:11:00] is my life. Like, just like I was in the kitchen of like, it's a beautiful day here in Brazil, like perfect, 75 degree weather, sunny, surrounded by.
All shades of green. Two little kids running around the house being so freaking cute, like jumping on Tom and like listening to Lauryn Hill in the background, making an amazing breakfast. Like being a, to like accepting, like the fact that I'm a total cliche, like do you know the things that I've talked about in previous episodes?
Like I just living a very healthy, rich, full life of like fresh beet juice. A luxurious morning where I have time to make the breakfast that I want. And you know, I'm really big on breakfast. Like, make the perfect cup of coffee, feeding the birds, staring at a flower, um, you know, like all of this before 10:00 AM It's so nice.
It's so nice. And I accept my new good fortune.
Except my new good fortune. Yeah, it's funny 'cause that's also my answer is [01:12:00] like this, you know, this week's been like a beautiful study and pleasure and I have had so many hilarious sweet moments. Like Desi and I went out one night and then had like a complete and utter hilarious giggle fit. Like, like, I mean, think he peed his pants a little bit.
We were both laughing so hard and like I had just been like, just relishing this book that I'm reading and had the best fucking lunch and chocolate croissant yesterday.
Oh,
really great
pleasure, pleasure, pleasure,
sex. Like, just like mm. Just
deliciousness.
just, yeah. Life. The ecstasy of life. This, this is, yeah. Is bringing me joy.
Ah.
All right. Be back next week. My loves.