Eva’s spent years wrestling with one of the most loaded questions in a woman’s life: Do I actually want kids? In this episode, she finally names her answer—not from pressure or panic, but from a deep exhale that arrived when her real life (and real relationship) reflected the truth she’d been circling for years.
Eva’s spent years wrestling with one of the most loaded questions in a woman’s life: Do I actually want kids? In this episode, she finally names her answer—not from pressure or panic, but from a deep exhale that arrived when her real life (and real relationship) reflected the truth she’d been circling for years. She and Kyley trace the grief, conditioning, cultural expectations, plant medicine visions, and tiny moments of clarity that led her to choose a childfree path—and the freedom, tenderness, and community that decision opens up.
If you’ve been wrestling with this question yourself—or just feeling the weight of needing to decide—we hope this conversation offers clarity, comfort, and the confidence to trust your own timing.
What we cover in this episode:
✨ The relief that surfaced when Eva stopped forcing clarity and started listening to her body
🧭 The emotional undertow of indecision, timelines, and the fear of “getting it wrong”
🥲 The grief that lives inside every path—motherhood, not-motherhood, and unlived lives
🧨 How cultural and familial expectations shape who women believe they’re supposed to be
🌿 The plant medicine ceremony that revealed the beauty and the cost of motherhood
🏡 Reimagining belonging: chosen family, community, and aging without kids
🧡 Meeting regret with maturity instead of letting it dictate your choices
🔥 The unexpected empowerment inside letting your life be shaped by truth, not pressure
💫 Connect with Eva & Kyley
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Kyley and Eva-1
Eva: [00:00:00] Hey everyone. I am Eva.
Kyley: and it's Kyley.
Eva: Welcome to Hello Universe.
Kyley: I am super excited for this conversation today because Eva has made a big life decision, one that we've talked about a couple years before when you were processing, thinking, weighing your options. And this is the episode where you're gonna reveal your big life decision. So share, go on the floor, is yours.
Eva: I've decided very, very peacefully. That I don't wanna have children, which, [00:01:00] um, is a big deal because I went back, have gone back and forth about it. I'm 41 years old now and, you know, late thirties if you're not having kids and, or some people might even be whatever, mid thirties, depending on, I think oftentimes where you live actually.
Like if you are living in a place where you're just surrounded by everyone who has kids at twenties, and then you might think that you should be having kids at 20, but whatever. And for me it was like ti biological clock is ticking, you know, like, you need me, you need to make a decision. And it was a point of stress for me.
And to be able to like really land in this super comfortable place with this decision is like. It feels like such a beautiful gift. And so I really wanna speak to that because I know that there are a lot of women out there who have gone through the same process of not being sure. And I've talked to a lot of women.
I think just like, [00:02:00] because of that was the phase of life I was in. I have a lot of friends who have struggled with not knowing, needing to make the decision. And I wanna talk about all of the stuff like that comes with it. You know, like the, the guilt and the stigma or the perceived stigma and like, you know, the worry and all of that.
And yeah, I think, I
Kyley: I'm so stoked that you are bringing this to us. First of all, I'm just excited to hear about, you, know, about, about you coming to this decision, but also. I think you really beautifully point out that I feel like we have a lot of conversations about motherhood and there are increasingly conversations about not being a mother if you're a woman, but this specific part, like what does it look like to wait to live in the indecision and like come to a decision?
I, I can, you know, it's, I think I, I know for a lot of people it is an intense process and there I feel like there [00:03:00] aren't actually a lot of really rich conversations about how to live in the in-between and come to a decision. So lay it on us. Like what, what did the indecision, like, what's the question I wanna ask? What did the shift begin to look like from, I'm not sure. And maybe weighing both options to feeling like, no, actually I am sure and I do know.
Eva: Okay. Well, I do have to say I think I got really lucky because something came into my life that made the decision really easy for me, and, and it actually showed me what lived inside me, which was that like I was really, really, really cool to not having kids. So, but I think, and I, but I don't actually think that's a bad way to make a decision.
And so for context, what I'm sharing about is that, or what I'm referring to is if you've been listening to the pod, you know that I'm madly, deeply in love with my partner, who is much, much older than [00:04:00] me. And so having kids, which is like not on the table for him or for us, and. It was. And I, once that information became clear, I felt a sense of relief.
Like there was like, it was like, it showed me like, oh my God. Like I thought I, there was a lot of indecision 'cause I wasn't sure, but because I felt relief, you know, it pointed to actually how I think that's what I really wanted, but I always felt like I should have kids, or really what I was living with was like what I would be missing out on.
Kyley: Yes.
Eva: the worry, and I wanna talk about all of those things too, but in case people are wondering like, how did I come to this decision? That's how I came to the decision. It was like life came in and showed me what I wanted. Mm.
Kyley: and I, I love, love, love this because first of all, the reminder, like, we don't actually, we don't always have to be the one who's like, meticulously solving every problem and untangling every knot. Like life will [00:05:00] give you the answer. But I think what you're really pointing to, it's not just you fell in love with someone and like for the two of you having kids is not an option or like, not, like, not, not the, not.
On the table, it's that you felt relief when that came in, right? Because you, the opposite could be true, right? You could all of a sudden have tons of grief where you're like, but wait, this means that, and then that would tell you. So it's like life. I think li what life will always give you the opportunity to see clearly, but it doesn't always give you exactly what you want immediately.
Right. And I just wanna name that, that it's like the, the thing that is telling is that feeling of relief of like, oh, I don't have to have kids.
Eva: Yes, exactly. I don't have to have kids. So I, I liken this to, 'cause here's the thing, I'm a very indecisive person to the point where it can be like a really painful part of my life sometimes when I get into extreme, um, analysis paralysis. And I have [00:06:00] learned that sometimes when I do that, I need some sort of external thing to just sort of bring some information in so that I know what I want.
And what I mean by that is I have this thing that I do where if I'm just like, really in paralysis, I will just flip a coin and the, and then I'll flip a coin and then, you know, I'll call heads or tails and I'll give me the results. And, and then I'll notice I don't use that to help me make the decision, but like, let's just say I do that.
Kyley: you a reference
Eva: Yes. If I'm, if I'm, if I'm, if I'm in, if I'm disappointed by that, I'm like, oh, actually it turns out I did want this thing. Or it's like, I don't know, like how, um, like my friend told me that, you know, she'd always, like, she doesn't ever know what she wants to eat for dinner. So then her partner will be like, okay, well we'll have, you know, like people'll say, well, you want, we'll have pizza.
She'll be like, no, I don't want pizza. Turns out I want hamburgers. Do you know what I mean? Like, you have some sort of reference points to respond to. Actually, as I'm saying that, I feel that, I feel like that feels very human design. Like you're a generator, right? Like, are you a, are you a generator?
Kyley: a manifesting
Eva: You're a manifesting generator.
Yeah. But you know,
Kyley: one.
Eva: yeah, makes [00:07:00] sense. But the idea that you need something to respond to, and I feel like that's what happened. And also it was life showing me that like, I'm really happy now, specifically in this, you know, this relationship came in that then sort of like formed my life as it is right now.
And also just noticing that like, I'm really happy with this and I don't want. Anything to, I don't need or want anything to fuck that up. Like kids would just be a disaster for, for me right now.
Kyley: Well, and I mean, we recorded longtime listeners might remember that we actually recorded a conversation about this years ago when you were in the indecision, right? And so that might be interesting for people who are maybe themselves in this moment. You might enjoy going back to that
Eva: yes, yes. I actually, I actually want to, I was like, I'm glad you like remember that because I actually think if people are on the fence, you should go back and listen to, we had two episodes, I think. One [00:08:00] was actually with a child free expert, like a woman who came on here who was, who was just about child free living and in that conversation,
Kyley: sorry I have to interject this Hilariously, I'm not on that podcast because my kids were having a complete bedtime meltdown. I couldn't make the recording.
Eva: Yep. So it totally made, yeah, so it totally made sense that I was on that call just like with this woman, but I had actually like a lot of anxiety in that conversation. And I felt like there was, like, if you go back and listen, I wonder if people can tell, I don't know if it's palpable, but I felt like there was this like just sadness and like I wanted to own my indecisiveness or like not knowing, but I, I didn't really own it.
I was like in, in, I felt, I think embarrassed or anguish or something just uncomfortable about like the not knowing and I felt confused, which was an interesting 'cause, which was interesting because I think I wanted to own like wanting [00:09:00] to be child free, but I wasn't there yet at the time. And then you and I have sub subsequently also had another conversation about like, I think it's called like in the title, like, does Eva wanna have kids?
Or something like that. So, you know, this has been an ongoing journey for years. And I think that's what it takes for a lot of people in this phase of their life, especially if they're like, there's so many different things to consider, but sometimes people aren't partnered, you know, and they're like, well, do I wanna have a kid by myself?
Like, that's a big thing. Um, yeah, I mean, I, I I just wanna say that like, if you don't know, I want you to know that I see you. Like if you're a person out there who's just indecisive and I see you, and I really wanna speak to those pain points, you know, like
Kyley: Yeah.
Eva: all that indecision about, like not being partnered as a big one, but also like, do I wanna bring a person into this world, into this chaos, dumpster fire right now?
Finances are like really tricky. You know, like, can I afford to have a kid? Am I gonna [00:10:00] miss that's, this was one, one that was really big for me. Am I gonna miss out on what I still think is like one of the most miraculous experiences that you can have as a, as a. I wasn't gonna say female, but maybe even as a person, like to give birth, you know what I mean?
Like, it is this, like, I have no doubt, like we've had enough people on here on the show talking about motherhood. Like I have no doubt that it is like the spiritual, like, uh, I don't know what you would call it. Like,
Kyley: it's an intense spiritual ride if you, if you want it to be, and often if you don't, but, but I, I, that was the point that I feel like. I've observed for you, seems seem like the stickiest. It's like, will I miss out on this thing? Right. Like those other questions you were talking about, I know a lot of people who have really grappled with those, but my perception was the thing that was seemed like the hardest for you to like process and feel clear on was this like essentially fomo, [00:11:00] right?
Like, will I miss out on something that's really special and that I And and then, and then was there some fear that you would regret that there would be re, was there fear of regret?
Eva: Oh one hundo, which is also what I wanna speak to. It's like I, there was like so much fear of regret and actually another fee. And to add to that. It's also the fear of like, I am 40 now and so yeah, like I could see, not really understand like not having kids, you know, but what if I'm like 60 or 70 and like, what if I don't have a, the fear of like, I don't know if I'd call it missing out, but the fear of not having big Thanksgiving dinners, you know, and like not missing out on the family experience that I think I might one might need more of when you're older so that you're not isolated.
You know what I mean? There's that and there's, I didn't have this fear, but another fear that I [00:12:00] know people have, which is legitimate, even though I don't think it's a legitimate, it's, it's valid. Like your fears are valid, but I don't think it's the best reason to have kids. But this worry of like, who's gonna take care of me when I'm really old? Like, that's another big one. And um, and.
Kyley: So it's the woman who's like quite currently taking care of her aging parents.
Eva: totally. And who was like, who's like, I would actually never want to put my kids in a position where they have to take care of me. You know? Like that's how I feel actually. Um, so, and also, and I think what's changed is that I've made peace with the fact that I might still grieve that in 20 years.
And that actually feels awesome because I think I was like trying to avoid the grief. I was like, let me, like, try to make the right decision so that I, so I don't have to like, deal with the grief. And now it's more like, you know, Tom's much older than me, so like, he's gonna die unless, unless he lives to 120, which we joke about.
Who [00:13:00] knows? Maybe it'll happen, but like,
Kyley: that for you guys.
Eva: yes, I love at first too, but like, there's a very real reality of like, he will die and I might be really alone at some point, you know? And I will have to contend with that. And so when I'm 60 or something, will I be. Like it's, I might have a lot of grief. Will I have regret?
Will I be like, oh, I now I wish I had kids. And I think what's, what feels like so much more courageous is this idea of like, it's not that I'm not gonna feel grief, it's that I'm willing to let the grief in if it needs to come. Needs to come. Yeah. I think I always had this weird fear of like being an older woman who was gonna live with regret.
You know, like, and I didn't wanna be that woman. And now it's kind of different. Now it's like, I don't know if it would be regret, but I think there's a lot of space and compassion for grief.
Kyley: Well, I had a really interesting conversation with my therapist once where I was talking about my fear of regret within motherhood. Um, and, and it's, and it's [00:14:00] lessened, but it, for a long time it was like a really big fear, like, well, will I regret how I did X, Y, or Z specifically, like balancing work in motherhood.
I think that was like often a big one is still anyways, and I was talking about regret and he said, regret is a choice. was like, whoa, whoa. Like my, I did one of those, like, wow. Wow. And for context, my therapist is like, amazing, right? And like very like, let's feel our feelings and. really blew my mind.
But I think he's right. Regret is a choice. Meaning the feeling under that is grief. And I feel like when we, when we hold the grief and turn it into self blame that it becomes regret. But the, it's basically what he was pointing to is like, regret is like a belief. It's not the actual feeling. And, and I think that's a really interesting idea [00:15:00] that does, the more I sit with it, feel true for me because you're pointing to like, there is going to be grief that comes in our lives and we have to just surrender to it and be in it and feel it.
Um. If we don't, it might show up as regret, but the regret necessarily isn't there to stay. It's there to be like, hi, you have un, you know, hello, I'm here to present you with your unprocessed grief. You know? Um, and I just think that's an intriguing, I think that's an intriguing philosophy. 'cause that's what I hear you saying is like, I don't need to be afraid of regret because actually I'm willing to meet whatever emotions come.
Eva: yeah. But you know, yeah. I wasn't expecting to bring this up 'cause I didn't actually think it had that big an effect on of an effect on me. But now that we're here, I'm realizing that it did actually have an effect on me, which was that I remember when I was, I don't know, in my early thirties or something, I met a woman and in a [00:16:00] context where like we were, we had, we had some like shared space and we got to know each other kind of well.
And she was much older than me, like maybe in her si like sixties, maybe late sixties. And something came up where she was just sharing with me about her regret of not having kids and that, and she was really sad and she was crying. And I remember thinking like, that freaked me out actually. And my response to that was like, oh my God, I don't wanna be like a person who's in my late sixties living with like all of this regret.
And it put me into this spiral of like, I need to fucking figure this out like this. Like when you are a woman who needs to make a decision because of your biological clock, it feels so intense and so stressful, and it feels like literally the biggest decision of your life that you need to mi fucking make.
And you get, and there's a lot of resentment. There's a lot of resentment with this feeling of like, and I know this because I felt it, but actually it's what I experience a lot when I talk to women about this is this anger of like, fuck, you know, why do I, it sucks. Like why do I, why is there a time limit on this thing?
And then I have [00:17:00] to fucking figure it out. Oh, and there's all this frustration,
Kyley: the pressure, right? Like I have, I have a couple of dear friends who are my age and like come trying to, trying to become mothers. And it's like the pressure of like, okay, well now there's fertility. There's just like so many layers of like, I have to make the decision and also I have to make the decision before the time runs out.
And then, oh shit, did I make the decision to, like, that's another big thing, right? It's like, okay, I'm ready. I'm gonna try and then this, and then this fear that. This fear that you made the decision too late and now it's hard and now it wa you know, I finally made the decision and now I won't get what I want because I fucked it up and waited too long.
Like there's just so this is this, I have so much empathy for how I think painful the pressure cooker of it can be. Especially when you add this like very real biological clock
Eva: Mm-hmm. Yeah, it fucking sucks. So I'm seeing you like this is, you know, like, this is why [00:18:00] I want to record this podcast is 'cause it really is like a love letter to the women who were like in this liminal space and feel like they need to figure it out. And also a love letter to like. To, I think actually what a lot of women might need to hear is like, it's okay to not, to choose not to have children because I also think that there is a little bit of this, um, what do you call it?
Like a, a story I suppose, that there's something wrong with you if you don't have kids. And, and I wanna be clear, I don't actually know. I think, I think that's maybe a story that's like part of our society, but I actually think it's something that we internalize and it gets really loud with within. So like, even if none of your friends care, there's something, you know, whatever in society.
But I actually felt like it wasn't, yeah, sure I picked up the societal story, but it, I, I was just really hard on myself in that way. Like I was doing most of the beating up in terms of like, [00:19:00] there's something wrong with me. Like, um, and I wanna, I wanna like get back to that later. 'cause that's a really big piece of this, but like, that's what this you anyway, that's why I really wanna have this conversation.
'cause I think it's like totally.
Kyley: Can you say more about that? That like internalized feeling of, because I will say my, one of my big takeaways from when we had this conversation when we recorded this conversation, when you were in a decision was like. I don't think even wants kids. I mean, I say this on the, I say it in the podcast, right?
I was like, I don't think you want kids. But I think it was like hard for all, all these very valid reasons. It felt hard to trust that. Right. And something about like the relief you're talking about with you and Tom being like, we're not gonna have kids, also feels like, it feels like life gave you permission to want what you already want. Can you say more about that feeling of like, there's something wrong with me for not wanting kids?
Eva: yes. I, I mean, like, why don't, [00:20:00] I'm, I think you might even have actually more insight into like how and where we pick this up, but a lot of my story was like. If I don't wanna have kids, does that make me like completely immature and self-centered and selfish because like, I'm not willing to like, sacrifice my life or like, you know, 'cause it is a sacrifice.
Like, or maybe, or, or, or maybe I'm being even that, even that
Kyley: Oh, no, it's a sacrifice.
Eva: it is a sacrifice.
Kyley: it's also a reward, right? Like it is a, it's a sacrifice. You choose, like there's a lot of shit you sacrifice to become like, in motherhood
Eva: you know what I mean? Like, but like even so like, mothers get this, and I think women get this, it doesn't matter if you're a mother or not, but there is this idealized version of like the holy mother who's just like, oh, you know, she's like an angel. And she's like, it's not a sacrifice.
This is my greatest, you know, my greatest calling. You know what I mean? Like,
Kyley: Which I think is actually also just so much violence against mothers too, right? Because it reinforces this idea that our job is s when I say like, it is a sacrifice, I just mean like, if your kid's crying [00:21:00] in the middle of the night, you gotta fucking get up, right? Like, you don't, there's things you don't get to opt out of.
Um, but like, I think, ugh, yeah, we love the mother. We love the martyrdom of motherhood. Like we, it is like we have cultivated, like peak womanhood is martyrdom. And it's so disgusting and does a huge disservice. I mean, like, it does a huge disservice to mothers because then we feel guilty every fucking time we set a boundary or like take time away or whatever.
And that it does a disservice to people who don't wanna be mothers because you're like, to your point, you're like, oh, I must be a selfish monster. I remember, remember being a kid, and I remember my mother saying, um, I just think, I just think that if people, if women don't wanna have children, they're selfish.
Eva: Oh, 100 fucking percent. I literally, oh my God. Uh, see, so like you do get this messaging like, you know, from different places, but I actually had my friend's husband say that [00:22:00] to me about not wanting to have kids, and I. Didn't have the, I was pretty still, I don't know if it was, I was like, I don't know, my twenties or something.
I just didn't have the equipment to advocate for myself. All I knew was like, it felt like a fucking slap in the face. 'cause they had just had kids, like they were pretty young parents and it was like very righteous. Like she, my friend wasn't righteous, it was her husband that was righteous, who was like, this is the most self-sacrificing thing that I can do and this is the thing that I can do to be like a better human being in the world and I'm gonna give to my children and blah, blah, blah, blah.
And then I told him that like, I wasn't sure or something like that. And I was, and I wasn't sure. And I felt self-conscious about not being sure. And then he came at me with like, well this is just like the most important thing that a human, human can do. Or something like that. And it was a fucking, like I was, it was a slap across the face because I was already fragile about it.
And I believed him, you know, when like I believed him. And I think back to that moment being so like disgusted with just like his arrogance.
Kyley: yeah,
Eva: [00:23:00] Like so arrogant. And also I don't, I'm not mad at myself, but you know, like at now I'm like, oh, I wish I
Kyley: go back?
Eva: yeah. I wanna go back and be like, you know, like I have now, like the tools to that be able to respond instead, instead of, what I did was I literally just like shrink and like disappeared and like just, and like into my shirt.
'cause I just felt so shameful.
Kyley: You know this, you know how sometimes people say lots, like say things that are like commonly held beliefs and you're just like, does not compute. Do you ever have that experience? You're like, just something. Just that is always my feeling about the, even as a kid. 'cause I remember this moment. 'cause I remember being like, I don't even get that.
My mom said like, you know, I don't know if she would still believe that, right? To her. I don't know what she would still, but at the time, and I remember saying like, I don't, like, I remember just feeling like that doesn't, that, that doesn't
Eva: make sense. It doesn't compute like, yeah.
Kyley: And I still feel that way. Like I don't understand how not having kids, like just I do, like someone explained to me the philosophy behind this idea.
[00:24:00] I guess it's just the valorization of the sacrificial motherhood shit, but like, I don't get it. If you don't, if you do not want kids, don't fucking have kids.
Eva: Right, exactly. You're not doing anybody a service by having kids when you don't want them. You're gonna fuck some shit up. You know what I mean? But I, the interesting thing is I feel both ways about that. Now. I wanna come back again to like all the other ways that I felt bad about not being a mother. And actually, I just also wanna say thank you.
'cause I think what you're pointing out earlier was like, you as a mother and me as someone who's not a mother, we're actually still dealing with the same bullshit, which is the fact that like, women are supposed to be self-sacrificing. As a mother, you're supposed to be self-sacrificing. As a, as a, as a non mother, you, you're wrong because you're not being self-sacrificing.
It's all like, we're not against each other. You know what I mean? We're like. We are all being tyrannized by the same bullshit.
Kyley: Yes.
Eva: and, um, what was your question though? What was [00:25:00] I gonna speak to? Oh, yeah. Not making sense. Things not making sense. Okay. The thing not making sense to you. So I like how I, one reason that I knew that I had like upleveled in my process of like decision making was like I was reading something online.
It was like an Instagram post, something about, I don't know, some, I don't even know, some random person's thing about like motherhood or something. And then I went in and it was like totally innocuous. Like it was really sweet. But it wasn't until I got into the comments section that like the first comment there with like the most likes was like, it was really long and this woman had written this thing about how like, I think the truth is if these, like you will never be as.
Like, if you don't have children, you were just not, it's just not possible that you're gonna be as like aware and like a good person, essentially. Like she had to, it was really eloquent the way that she wrote it. Right. She was like, there's just so much that you have to learn [00:26:00] through being a parent. It's like, it's a lot of compromise.
It's a lot of like patience. It's a lot of empathy and compassion and like all of these things. And the thing is, is like, I read that and two things happened. I was like, I actually think she might be right. Like, there's just so much that you learn through parenthood and I can, because even like just being with my nephews or with Tom's grandchildren, I've experienced that too.
It's like you are, there's a forced bootcamp in your life that is inescapable where you have, you're forced into learning how to like compromise, you know what I mean? And, and all of these things. And so, so there was like that, that whole thing where I was like, okay, I actually think. That might, there might be some truth to that.
And that was like, I don't know, like part one of it. And then the part two, which was like the part that was like felt so amazing was that I was like, and I'm not triggered by that, which
Kyley: mm.
Eva: really huge to me because I was like, you could be right girl. And that's [00:27:00] all good. Like I may not be as great of a person in this lifetime, and I'm cool with that.
Like it was so delicious because that same post a couple years ago, I would've just like again melted into a Shang spiral and then questioned myself and been like, oh my God. Like is it true? Like, am I not a bad person? And I, and I, then I would've gotten defensive and I would've been like, oh, this fucking bitch who's just being so judgemental and she's just being a jerk and blah, she's on her high horse.
I would've all had all of this discourse. And it was more like, yeah, you could be right. And also that's cool with me, like there's just zero, you know, like zero triggering, which was like, when you're not triggered by something, someone says, you're good. You know what I'm saying?
Kyley: a sign of freedom.
Eva: Yeah, and I was like, and that was how I knew, like that was one of the, one of the, there were like little clue, one of the ways where I was just like, oh, I think I'm like kind of over this thing that was really had its nails in me for a long time.
Kyley: [00:28:00] I fucking love this. I love, love. I love those moments where you're like, I would be triggered by this. Now I'm not. And I wanna like poke back at this idea that like, motherhood makes you a better person. I think it presents you with an opportunity to face your gremlins. Like nothing. I have never met anything that will trigger my own inner shit as much as bother.
[00:29:00] Right? Like, it's just like an opportunity to face your gremlins all the time. And that doesn't mean you do it, right? Like the,
Eva: Yeah. I mean that's the other thing is like, yeah, there are a lot of parents out there who are unfortunately, like you are a parent and you are still. Not a great human being. I'm like, tho that exists.
Kyley: the, for sure there's like pl, I mean there's like plenty of abusive parents or just like asshole parents or like unconscious parents. Like Nick and I talk about this sometimes that like there's, there are people who. This, this might sound elitist, but fuck it. I think there are some people who like parent, 'cause it's like the next thing to do, right?
It's like you just, like, you show up to it and then you parent. And then I think there are some people who put a lot of thought, they have like a parenting philosophy, right? And that they are like, like Nick and I, we have our shared values of like, and we like have a lot of conversations about like, are we in integrity on these?
Are we on the same page on these? Um, [00:30:00] and I think that not everyone parents that way, and I'm a shitty person as a parent all the fucking time, right? Like, I'm an asshole to my kids. I snap at them. I like, I do all I do. I'm on my phone too much, right? There's like millions of ways in which like, there I am, there's always an opportunity.
Like parenthood is like a crucible of like facing your shit. That doesn't mean that you face your shit. Right. And so this idea that like parents are somehow like better, first of all because the sacrifice thing is weird. But then also even if you see it as like, you know, it's this like intense proven ground for like dealing with your shit.
Yeah, maybe. But like I know for sure there's plenty of shit that I'm not, I, I don't know. Do you get what I'm trying to point
Eva: No, I, I, I, I totally hear what you say. And I think, and I think, I mean, that's the thing. It's like, there, it's so, um, there's so many different things to consider that it's not black and white, you know? It's like, yeah. [00:31:00] You could be like a, you could, you could also not have kids and actually be quite selfish because you've never had to.
Um, like consider somebody else and that person exists, you know, and that, but the thing is I'm like, okay, well that person exists, so what, who cares? You know, like, so, so what? And then there's also the person who, whatever doesn't learn through the crucible, crucible of parenthood, maybe they learn through something else.
There's just too many life facets to say like that. This is like the way, do you know what I mean?
Kyley: I'm in these like parent, like local parenting groups just to like find out about activities and stuff. I'm like, people post, I just, I'm just gonna like vet for a second, but like. People post shit about like, what's going on with their kids? And y'all like, this is not a good look. But I am in there with like eyeballs up, like what I am like so judgey of some of this stuff, but specifically like there are people who really think that their job is to fucking control your kids.
That they think that good parenting is to like force your kid to be like you. Like there's, [00:32:00] there is the, the the ways in which I find that parenting makes me a better person is because it like brings up my shit and I can deal with it or I can punt it. There are so many people who like think their job is to like twist their kid into the model of what they think is acceptable.
Like, but my personal philosophy is like, my job is to like.
Eva: To instill that so that they live that way,
Kyley: Right, as opposed to like, you are who you are and my job is to like make the space for you to like be the best version of who you already are. And there are so many people who are like controlling and project so much bullshit on their kids and like, like, like are so triggered and so Unfucking interested in looking at their own triggers and projecting all those triggers onto their kids and making them their kid's fault.
And like, that's not you being a good person, right? Like that is a performative thing of like of, of like, of, of goodness because you [00:33:00] think you're good because your kid is well behaved. Like meanwhile they have a horrible anxiety disorder or whatever the fuck thing is. Right? And, and I clearly am like hot and bothered by this because I just think that we have this idea that like to be a parent is to be like, automatically you're like, we make it like the special status thing, even as also we undersupport parents, blah, blah, blah.
But also like. I just, I just think that there are people who are like, just, don't know how to con conclude this thought, but I'm just annoyed at this idea that it's like valorized as somehow you are a better person when like, no, you're just a person. And some people are selfish and they have kids, and some people are selfish and they don't have kids.
And if you are someone, if you are someone, this is what I'm trying to say. If you are someone who's interested in like self evolution and compassion and generosity, you're gonna find those places and you're gonna turn towards that over and over and over again. And if motherhood is your path, then you will figure out how to be generous in motherhood and you'll fuck it up a million times.
And if it's not your [00:34:00] path, you're gonna figure out how to be generous and all these other ways and you're gonna fuck that up a million times. Like there's, it's, it's, it's not about
Eva: that's so good.
Kyley: to the role.
Eva: That I want that to be like the quote from like this that we share on Instagram to like promote this 'cause I to promote this episode because I actually think you're doing such a good job. Again, if this episode is for the woman who feels guilty or unsure about not having kids, like you're doing such a good job at like validating that we're all just humans and that really, like your goodness and who you are shines through in different ways.
Whatever 'cause it's, you're gonna choose that path. Right? And I think a lot of people need to hear that because I think what you're saying, especially coming from a mother, is incredibly valuable because as. We were talking about, there are a lot of people who don't feel that way. There are a lot of people who are like this righteousness of like, I am a parent and I therefore, like I think there can be sometimes when parents are looking down on the single, especially like, I [00:35:00] don't know, I'm actually really curious for how it is for men.
Because I think there is a story that if you're a older man who doesn't have kids, you're like a bachelor for life and therefore you're just gonna be kind of like bachelor for life. I dunno, there's like a connotation that comes with that. This idea of like, you're kind of like irresponsible and like not serious.
Like you're not serious or, and I, and then there
Kyley: I don't know, maybe it would be fun. Maybe that's fun.
Eva: Exactly. But to me I'm like, who cares? You know? That's the whole point that I'm coming to. That's been like so helpful for me. More like, which is like, who the fuck cares man? Like there's a billion, there's a g gazillion billion ways to be in this life and we need all
Kyley: I wanna be a bachelor. Like that sounds like it could be fun. Like, you know, I don't know.
Eva: like someone's got to stick up their ass judging the Bachelor because who, they're not serious and they're thinking about this person. There's something wrong with it. And that's the point that I had found to be so helpful, which is like, I was so afraid of that stigma of being like, well, maybe I'm not serious.
You know, until, like, I came to a point where I really think there [00:36:00] has been a lot of work around, like, this has been impossible for me because I've been working with my, I'm bad story for so long. And, and that's why it really triggered me before, you know, when I was like, I'm not a mother and so therefore I'm selfish and I'm bad.
And reading again, like that example of reading that Instagram post, I didn't make it mean that I was bad. That like I wasn't gonna be as like evolved or whatever because I was like, who cares if I'm not serious? You know? And who cares if I like, enjoy my life because I'm having frivolous fun until I'm 60?
Like, so the fuck what? Like, you know, it, that feels like beautiful to me instead of something to be embarrassed about. Yeah. Yeah. So, but,
Kyley: Can I name something just for our listeners? I just wanna like drop something in because there's a third category that we're not touching on and I think we won't really be able to because it's neither of our lived experience, but there's also a whole bunch of people who want to have children and for whatever reason they don't get to.
Right. And I just wanna, like, if that is you, if you are listening to this and you are the [00:37:00] person who's like, I fucking want kids, and for whatever combination of reasons, it's not something that I get to have. Like, I mean, I'm feeling teared up. You like live in my heart and I, and I see the pain of that.
And I'm sorry, I just wanna name that.
Eva: Yeah. Well that was actually the other thing that I wanna wanna get to because I think we're having a very specific conversation like this conversation. 'cause this whole thing about motherhood is, is really nuanced. And again, so many different avenues and I. There's some, this conversation is also not for the woman who's like, I know, I don't wanna have kids.
Like, I don't even fucking like kids. They're dirty, they're smelly, they're gross, they're annoying. They cry a lot. There's some women who are like that and I've always actually envied them because I was like, you just like know what you want and you're unapologetic about it. And so like this conversation isn't for that woman because you already know.
And then there is this conversation is also, I think I came to the decision like knowing that, like I always, I [00:38:00] was always more on the scale of like, if I had to choose, I probably wouldn't have kids. You know, it, it's more we felt like an obligation or like I should or whatever. But there was a lot of people out there who like, motherhood is like this.
It is a very beautiful experience and I think they sense that and they, I, I have a lot of, and I I, part of this conversation why I know it's so painful is because I have so many friends who like I think really want to be mothers and. It, it feels just like it. I can't even explain it. Like, it, it is so beautiful.
And they see that and, and they want to experience the beauty of that experience.
Kyley: Yeah.
Eva: And I think that's a completely, like you're saying, maybe not a, not, maybe not this conversation either. 'cause it's not our lived experience. But there is, there's, there's kind of like a Venn diagram here too. 'cause like they, they fit here somewhere too, which is also the fact that like you're still living in a society where I [00:39:00] think
it just, I almost feel like it doesn't, society doesn't support you in making this decision easily. It's,
Kyley: Yeah.
Eva: it's like, because if you are someone who isn't a mother, but who wants to be, and maybe you're like not partnered or maybe not, um, biologically able to. It's painful because the system fucking sucks.
Like all of those, all of that sucks. And I feel like there's no sport and I actually feel a lot of fucking anger and rage and like, oh, and sadness and grief for, for all of that too. Because even though that it wasn't completely my experience, again, it was like I was there, there was a parallel there, you know, like the whole system I feel like just isn't set up in a kind or loving way.
And then, yeah, then there's just a lot [00:40:00] of pressure, you know, then you, and you kinda have to figure it out. And so there is a lot of grief that comes with that. And I just wanna say, I also experienced part of that too, you know? And so that's why I think, yeah, making the decision, that's why this, this whole experience of deciding has been, had been, you know, painful.
Because those are all the things that we need to contend with.
Kyley: Yeah. And the, the image of, um. to be Halloween week. I work with the goddess, with the goddess Hete a fair amount. And she's like the goddess of witches, but she's also the goddess of, um, crossroads. And so like feeling her energy in this moment of like, there's these moments in life where you have to make a choice.
And the, and the reality is there's always grief and choice, right? Because anytime you choose to go laugh, that just means you're not going right. And [00:41:00] that's just the isness of living. And even when we make the choice that's like, that, it's like full of maximum joy and pleasure. There's just all these unlived lives that we have, right?
All these turns that we didn't take. And, and I think that's just like, that's, that is the fabric of being alive. And here this is a huge kind of crossroads that a lot of people come to. Um. Like, I also think mothers like part of the first, you know, I've shared many times I had a very intense experience postpartum with both of my kids.
And I, part of that is like, you are grieving a life that doesn't exist for you anymore. Right? Like to be mother is then to be not, not mother. And, and, and that is also a life that, that I think, I actually think we don't let enough women grieve that. And that's part, and like I, I, I think that fucks that also fucks us up.
And I don't wanna like go [00:42:00] down that road too much on this episode 'cause I do wanna stay focused on this topic. But I just wanna name like, we are always choosing and there's always, there's always I think something, there's always grief in the choice
Eva: Right. I mean, I think you're saying you don't wanna go too far down there, but I think [00:43:00] there's, well, you're, you're bringing up a very valid point where you're speaking to, like all of this is. There's gonna be grief some somewhere, not to discount the person's grief. Like if you've not, if you're not having, having, if you can't or choose not to have a child.
But it's more like that. It's actually a really tender space for all of us and I actually don't think it's an us versus them. And comparing my experience to your experience, it's like really, and I wanna actually share later on also the how I came to see this in a plant medicine ceremony.
But like I really saw like it's. We're all kind of going through all of this grief, and we're, we're, I think really we're all meant to be holding each other rather than feeling like we're at odds with each other or that we're, it's different because like, you are a mother and I'm not a mother, or like, I didn't get to have kids or I, or, and I, and even though I wanted to, or I choose not to have kids, and I didn't want to, you know what I mean?
It's like there is this, I, I, I was experiencing [00:44:00] it. Honestly, I didn't even know I was experiencing it this way, but I was experiencing it a little bit as, um, like if someone was different than they were against me, like on this motherhood path. And, and I only felt that way because I felt insecure, and so therefore I was like defensive and then I was projecting that out onto other people.
And so that was like really helpful to see. And again, once I sort of like my story of like badness or unworthiness, you know, because I wasn't being a mother like dissipated, then I would started to see like, it's. I don't need, there's nothing to defend myself against. And then, then I'm seeing that like actually these other people who make other choices and um, they're not my enemy,
Kyley: Yeah. Yes. And that brings me to one. Side point that I wanted to make too, which is that I think some of the self-righteousness that parents have about like all the pieces we were talking about, I think it's actually their unprocessed grief and rage for the life that they're [00:45:00] not living. Right? Like I think some of that self-righteousness is like, I have to believe that this is the best fucking choice because it's really hard and there's not enough social support and I'm triggered every fucking day and my kid won't go to bed.
And like I have to believe that this is the be that I'm superior because I made this choice. Because if I don't believe that I have to grapple with the like grief and regret and frustration that I might have about the life that I, I could have been a bachelor drinking scotch and like watching
Eva: Or, or not even that, but not even like the grief of like being a bachelor, but like the real grief that comes with being a parent. Because like you're like, I can't even fucking take care of my own health. You know what I mean? There's like a lot, I see a lot of my parent friends struggle because I think in this system it's a fucking struggle.
And so it is like, it's, it's, there's a lot of grief for I think what you're speaking to of like a life lost, and that's like very real, like a career that's lost your health, that's lost, your friendships that are lost, like [00:46:00] it's all one big, all of it. Choosing to be a parent and not choosing to be a parent, like all, there's grief in both of those things.
It's like such a yin yang. And
Kyley: Okay. I really, sorry.
Eva: yeah. Anyway, I just, and so therefore again, coming back to this experience of like, or this, this point of like, we're not different. We're not against each other. We're all experiencing both the Judy, the beauty and the pain, but in different ways.
Kyley: Yeah, I really wanna hear about your plant medicine journey and I wanna, there's a thought that's coming to my mind too, which is, we can do this in any order, but like, can we also just celebrate that it's fucking great to be selfish. Like what if? Like what if? What if you're deciding not to have kids is purely the selfishness of like, I want maximum joy and I like naps and I enjoy doing plant medicine all the time.
And kids seem like they might complicate
Eva: Well, that's what I mean. That's the woman that I was talking about who's like, you know, like, okay, I [00:47:00] pointed out the negative where they're like, I don't like kids. They're loud, they're noisy, they're sticky, they're messy. But also like I love, I wanna luxuriate in my own fucking income, or I want to be in an income with my partner and have dual incomes and not have to pay for a kid's education.
Like that's what I mean. There are these people out there who just fucking know what they want. And I envied them for a long time because I was like, oh my God, how can you just be like. So, so decisive, you know? But like, I fucking get that, like, I 100%, like there's a, like a badassness to that where I, which I totally understand as someone who loves my alone time, you know?
Kyley: like what is so bad about being selfish? Like it's your life. Like do what you fucking want with it.
Eva: Totally.
Kyley: not to mention if you're having kids, 'cause you want them, one could argue that is also a selfish reason for having fucking, like, it's a selfish thing to do either way.
Eva: Well, yeah, I think it's, it's like your decisions, if your choice choosing something to do something for yourself, then it is by quote unquote selfish. And [00:48:00] maybe that's not such a fucking bad thing, you know?
Kyley: yes. Okay. Tell us about this plant medicine journey.
Eva: wait. I wanna, I wanna like, build off of that a little bit because again, I, so I just so wanna be the representation for the woman who is Titleless, who it doesn't have.
A kid and that like, I'm normal and I'm cool and I'm happy and I love my fucking life. Because I also needed that when I was like in my indecisive space, indecisiveness of being like, who can I look to as my, my role models? You know what I mean? Like I really needed that, like that I was gonna be okay if I didn't have kids.
And there were some people who really played that role for me. And so I think actually before the plant medicine thing, I wanna talk about the community piece. And I actually wanna start first with you and also my other friend Nicole, is like, you already spoke to this, but you don't have a story that like, it doesn't make sense to you that there's a story that is out there in the [00:49:00] world that like if you don't have kids, you are somehow selfish.
Like that just isn't in your consciousness. And so I think, like I sense that when I'm with you, you know, like what's so interesting to me is like. I, I have a community of friends, I think. I think the reason that I have found safety in this is I have a community of friends who do not have kids. And I think that's really important for me.
And also I feel so blessed to also have really close friends who do have kids and who don't treat me like any different. We're just the same. We're like the same that we've always been. You know what I mean? We're just who we are. And I think for a lot of people who are struggling with the decision, I imagine that a lot of it has to do with your social circle.
Like sometimes that can come into play because
Kyley: Yeah.
Eva: I'm lucky that well, actually no. For a while I was, I compared myself mostly to my friend group of like all mothers. And then I was like, oh my God, there's something really wrong with me [00:50:00] because they're all having kids. And I'm like the black sheep. And I even remember one of my friends being like.
She basically said like, you need to freeze your eggs because like, you might regret it, you know, you might regret. And I, I think she was really saying that from like a place of love, but it in again, because I was feeling so self-conscious, I, it made me feel like so othered and like I was gonna regret it and there was like gonna be, be a mistake.
And so I came from that and I don't, I didn't even have that bad 'cause most of my friends were like, really? Um, you know, modern and whatever. But like, there's some people who, they just come from a place in a culture where like everyone gets married at like 20 something and they're have, you know, they have kids super young and then, and then they're just like, oh my God, I don't have kids.
Like, there's something wrong with me. So I think it's like about finding your people, whether that's people, and that's what I have now in my life. My life is like such a rich mix of really badass fucking moms. And then also really badass women who, who are normal, who I look to who also don't [00:51:00] have kids.
And I'm like, oh, you're just like living your life like normal. Like, oh, great. Like there's nothing, there's nothing wrong with me. And I remember being like at a retreat, um, for the work, for by, and Katies of the work, and this one person had like, got up anyway, we do this exercise and she, she was talking about like the, the shame that she was experiencing of choosing not to be a mom and everyone in the audience.
This was like part of the exercise. Like everyone, there was an exercise where you were like, well, raise your hands if you also have, don't have children or have, have chosen not to have children or, you know, are on that path. And like some of us women raised our hand and then I could tell she was tracking the room to look to see like, are these women who are the, are they normal or are they the weirdos?
You know what I mean? Like she needed, she needed that solidarity of the other women to know that like, oh, it's okay. Like, it's okay for me not to have. Um, children, and that's still really helpful for me to see older women because Sure, it's cool to have peers, but then there's still a fear of like, but what's it [00:52:00] gonna be like when I am 50 and 60 and 70?
And it's really helpful for me to see women who are like really happy in their lives, who don't have children like early, later on in their path.
Kyley: Yeah. Okay. I love, love, love that. And I wanna also name, I know just that like, I think so many women lose themselves in motherhood. And then like, you know, I live in the suburbs, like I meet cute little old ladies that like, I don't know how to describe this, but like, I can tell when I've met somebody who's like, lost themselves, like, right, like didn't have access to themselves for big, uh, to the, to their identity outside of motherhood for big, like chapters of their life.
And then. All of a sudden your kids are grown and you have to figure out who the fuck you are. Or maybe you don't ever get the chance. Right. I, the point that I wanna make is like, if thinking about what it looks like to be satisfied when we're 60 or 70, if that's like one of the questions, like, that's about, [00:53:00] that's about living, I mean, there's many layers to that, but one part of that from my perspective is like, that's about being in devotion to yourself and like loving the shit out of every, all of your emotions.
Finding like activities and communities that fulfill you. Like, um, I don't know, one could argue that not having kids sets you up for more satisfying sense of like identity and relationship to self and the world. And, and I, I wanna offer that specifically because I think we're so obsessed with this narrative of like motherhood and then being a matriarch and like getting community through your family when you're older.
That like that is one model. But it's potentially a bad, potentially, it's not even a very good model, and that there's lots of other ways to build like a, like rocking sense of self and like deep community for as for your life as you age.
Eva: Oh my God. Okay. There's so much here. So much here because, okay. I wanna talk about the community piece, which is. I'm [00:54:00] gonna make this short. But just to say one thing though, that I feel like I wanna be committed to, because I do do have that fear, that like, as I'm older, I will be more alone because I do think just as normal, when we get older, we, it's hard, you know, we, we historically or what, statistically we isolate, blah, blah, blah.
And I think we're in like a new world here where a lot more people are single or single or not, whatever, or not having children and like, there's this opportunity to create community, you know, with, with other people who don't have kids. But I also think it's so important to have community with people who are kids, yet for us to all be in community together, you know?
But I guess I just wanna say I'm very mindful of that. Like I, I do think I wanna be very intentional about building community.
Kyley: Mm-hmm.
Eva: the second thing I wanna speak to is like, I'm actually curious for you, like, I know you have a lot of your close friends don't have kids, and then you also Yeah, yeah.
What's your balance and. I just think even as you're speaking to like losing yourself, you are someone who I really [00:55:00] think does like motherhood and a womanhood like, and like individualism, like all really, really well.
Kyley: Oh, thanks.
Eva: Yeah.
Kyley: that. I don't know if I always believe that, but, um, thank you.
Eva: Like you're just really, you are really dedicated, I think to just knowing thyself. I,
Kyley: I will say it's.
Eva: can't escape it. Like it's just in your DNA and some of that's gonna be through, well just through all of your life experiences. But there is, I see in you like with this quality of just like, um, being the seeker and part of the seeking is just being true to yourself, you know?
Kyley: Thank you. I appreciate that. I will just name, one of the things that's really, really continues to be a point of friction for me is like prioritizing space for myself in like an everyday way. I, [00:56:00] like, I haven't been to a yoga class, you know, like once, once a month, once a quarter I get to a yoga. Like that's something that I know takes good care of me.
And every time I look at the calendar I'm like, oh, but that means I can't put the kids on the bus that day. Oh, that means like I would have to, the, I, I have a really hard time choosing time for me when it could be time for the kids. That is just like one of the ways that I know I lose myself and like would be happier if, so that's one of my like areas where I'm.
Eva: Mm-hmm.
Kyley: It's an edge for me, so I'm just naming that. Um, but yeah, it's interesting because when I had kids, I wasn't young. I mean, I was, I mean, I was young in that, I think 33 as young, but I wasn't like a, um, you know, I wasn't in my twenties and yet I didn't really have, and I didn't really have any really intimate close friends who had kids at the same time as me.
And a lot of my friends, like either weren't gonna have kids or didn't have kids. I have a couple of, um, like my brother just had his first kid, [00:57:00] just, she's four months old, one of my like very oldest friends of like 20 years who was never gonna have kids, did actually have kids, but just this past year, her babies, what, you know, not even a year yet.
So, um, and so my early experience in motherhood was. Funny because like a lot of people I know who don't have kids experience the isolation of like, everyone around me has kids and I don't. And I had that but in reverse
Eva: Verse.
Kyley: where I was like, none of my people have, for the most part have kids. And so that was very like, lonely.
Um, and I just also, if anyone is in this, every fucking person says, you make friends when your kids go to school. And I was like, that's bullshit. And guess what? My kids are in school and I have lots and lots of really great friends.
Eva: Oh, I
Kyley: is truth to that. Um, and like now I have a really rich community of like, mom friends, especially like local, like really fucking cool, badass, brilliant.
Um. Just like women, I really [00:58:00] love and admire, um, mom, friends and, um, and again, some of, like, some of those people who, you know, because said my brother now has a baby. My friend Mikayla now has a baby. So I feel like my motherhood community has grown. Um, so I feel there feels like, there feels like there's more balance now, whereas before it felt actually, like most of my close people didn't have kids.
Now I feel like there's more, there's more balance.
Eva: Yeah. I just think that's like the trend that we're moving towards because more people are choosing not to have kids, I think. Maybe organically. I don't, I can't say for sure, but maybe organically, that's just gonna, how it's shake out, how it's gonna shake out for all, for all of us, where we have a, a mix of people who have child, children who don't have children.
Yeah. Yeah, yeah. Yeah. I think really nice. Yeah. Like
Kyley: And also like, I also like love for my kids to see, just like I want my kids to see have their intimate community include people of color and people who are queer. I want them also to have people [00:59:00] who don't have kids or people who are married, who aren't married. Like it's bonkers.
Like because how do we know that we have choice in our identities if we don't? And like in the opportunities in the paths we choose, if we don't see it reflected back, if we don't see it modeled. Right? Like I think for my kids, you're an awesome person in their life. You're one of them awesome people in their life that don't have kids.
To remind them that it is a choice. If they want to become parents, I want them to know that.
Eva: Well because in my, when I grew up, like my uncles, mostly uncles, I don't think I had too many aunts, but like my uncles who didn't have kids, they were always sort of framed as the weirdos. They were always like weird Uncle Joe or whatever.
And it was like there was a sense of like looking down on them. I could, I could see that from my parents a little bit, whether they knew, I don't know. That was a message that I picked up on. And so what I'm hearing you say is also like, I don't think you actually experience people that way, [01:00:00] and so it doesn't get communicated to your kids that way.
And also society, like we, like society really is just changing. Like it's just different now.
Kyley: does that feel like connected to like your Asian culture of like, do you feel like in Asian culture there's a particular pressure to have kids?
Eva: Yeah, to get married to like marry, settle down, do the hot up. 100%. 100%. Yeah. And I guess what, I wonder, do you think that's more than in, I guess I assume that that's kind of true in the west too.
Kyley: I mean, I think it is, but I feel like there's probably different flavors of it. Right? Like, I think that.
Eva: is true. Like people in Taiwan ask me, like one of the first questions they ask is like, are you married?
Kyley: Oh, interesting.
Eva: I guess I just, you don't, people don't ask that in America. Do they like, not like as the, you know, it's like more like the, instead of asking you like, what do you do when you're a woman?
You're asked, are you married? Because that defines like your status or place in the world.
Kyley: Which I, that's interesting. I have thought before about how American it is that [01:01:00] our, our first question is like, what do you do? Like, how, how do you participate in capitalism?
Eva: totally. Exactly. Exactly.
Kyley: Right. But like, yeah, I mean, I think I'm thinking of my family, which is like Irish Catholic, Irish-American, Catholic, um, and like almost all of my, my mom was one of 10, like almost everyone got married and had kids.
But I don't, I don't think. What you're describing feels like an extra layer of, you know, like I have a cousin who's like in her sixties and she never had kids and never got married. And it wasn't like it, it was, it felt normal. Like, it just felt like that's Hannah, that's Hannah's life. It didn't feel like she was
Eva: was stigmatized, like they was stigmatized in any way.
Kyley: Yeah.
Which again, back to like having Hannah in my life being like this badass, really cool, funny, accomplished woman who didn't have kids reinforces like, you get the, it's all choice. So what are you gonna choose? But, um, and I [01:02:00] do, so anyways, I think people experience pressure of that in all different ways, but there seems like, I just was wondering how that might, you might have a particular flavor of it
Eva: Yeah, yeah, yeah. I do think so. I do think so. Yeah. There's that. There's that too fun that that's fun. But yeah, that's probably just added that layer, you know? Ah, so
Kyley: Can I actually ask a question on that? Like how are, how have your parents historically been? Like, have they been people who have put pressure on you or made you feel a certain kind of way about,
Eva: my mom for sure, to the point where I had to be basically tell her like, if she doesn't stop hassling me, I'm going to just have to. I didn't say cut her off, but I told her that like, we can't have a conversation anymore. 'cause there was a period in my life where every time I called her or had a conver, the first thing outta her mouth was like, are you gonna get married?
Or, and then after a while she, when she accepted that I wasn't gonna get married, she was like, okay, well you don't have to get married, but like you, you have to have kids. Like you should have kids. And [01:03:00] I really could see though, that it was coming from such a loving place. 'cause she had explained it to me.
She was like, you are like the light of my life. And she was like, and, and I'm so happy that I have you and I want you to have that when you're older. And also she was like, who's gonna, she, she has that traditional thing of who's gonna take care of you when you're older. And, and really she was afraid that I was just gonna be like alone because she's like, she, but she just had such a different life than I have.
And I, it actually makes me sad. I mean, it's so loving, you know, like. I know it was coming from, coming from
Kyley: generous.
Eva: like, if she was coming from such a loving place, but it actually makes me feel sad because it's like, it's 'cause her life was really, is really limited and like she has no fucking clue how delicious my life is and like how my wife is full of possibilities and options and like, I feel really confident that I will, can and will continue to [01:04:00] make friends, you know, way late into life and like, have community and like the possibilities are endless and the options are endless and I'm, it's a big, beautiful world, you know?
And I don't think that she experiences, like, she doesn't have access to that as much. I mean, just simply just from even being like not having, not being completely able-bodied, you know what I mean? So, so she's projecting her worries onto me and. That was really hard for me for a while until I saw that clearly.
Until I was like, wait, no, I'm good. Like I really, there was a moment where she was so anxious about it that I was like, oh my God, do I need to be anxious? Like, oh, freaking out, freaking freaking out about it. Um, and my dad, no, my dad's pretty chill. I think he, yeah, I, no, I think he's pretty chill. He's always been like a kinda like, do what you want.
But I'm really proud of my parents now because, you know, they're both very pretty traditional. I don't know, I don't wanna say they're traditionally Asian, but they're Asian. [01:05:00] Um, they're not traditional for Asians. How about that? And I think, especially for my mom, like they've come a long way with acceptance, which is pretty cool.
Kyley: Yeah. All right.
Eva: Okay. So I want to wrap up this conversation by quickly talking a little bit about this plant medicine experience that I had that I also think has been part of my healing process. And I call, I do actually like the word healing process in terms of like the figure, you know, like, 'cause it has felt like a healing process of like coming to terms with choosing not to have children because it was so full of anguish before, you know, and uncertainty.
Um, so I was. Last year, Tom, my partner, um, his daughter and grandkids came to live with us in Brazil. And so I actually had two little girls in my life along with just like this family, and got to witness a lot of parenthood and motherhood, specifically motherhood, like, because the way that [01:06:00] my partner's daughter Mothered really just awed me.
Like she was just, it was beautiful, like it was an art form, you know, the way that she mothered her children. It was really, really cool to see. And so the theme of motherhood was just really alive for me. And I, I didn't set the intention or anything, but while I was in a plant ceremony, it just came up really loudly where I saw images of the little girls and I saw like images of the mother and.
It was like so beautiful and I was like crying. I just remember being so moved to tears that like seeing it not just, it wasn't their relationship, but like the relationship of mother, you know, and of children. Especially like with daughters, you know? 'cause I'm a daughter and it was just like so moving and I was like, oh my God.
Like it was just, it is just this ridiculously sacred experience and I that I got that I got to, even if I'm not the mother that I get to experience now, just around, just like it's medicine. Just even being around that, you [01:07:00] know? And I am so grateful for the experiences when I get to be with other children and mothers and families too.
And I really get something out of that. And it was just like, I was so moved by it. And then all of a sudden I saw simultaneously how tired she fucking was
Kyley: Hmm.
Eva: and like how much like figuring out she needed to do and all the balancing of like the work and then the partnership and then being a daughter and being a mother and like being a woman.
And then I was just like so fucking overwhelmed with like the experience. I almost felt like I was seeing the experience of mothers everywhere and I was filled with rage. It was like so intense. And I really, what I was seeing was like how fucked up our system is and how fucked up the world is and how fucked up all of this is that doesn't support mothers.
And I could see it going back like. Like thousands of years. You know, [01:08:00] like what I was seeing was actually how we used to live in a matriarchal society where the giver of life was a goddess and she was above all the most important thing in the whole fucking world. And we honored her to know Amy. We kissed her feet and we showered her and we, you know, put flowers at her feet.
And it was like so fucking beautiful. And I was just livid that that had been taken away from us. And I was, it was like insane Kyley, the amount of anger that I felt, and it was like in every fucking cell. And I was like, this is fucking bullshit. And I was like, just, I'm like, listeners can't see, but Kyley is crying and his tears streaming down her face.
And that was my experience of like, it was this grief and this heartbreak of knowing how it should be and how it was, and how. For because of colonization or whatever has happened throughout the course of humanity. It's just been [01:09:00] turned on its head and it has become this huge fucking mess. And I saw that, like I was just really in that moment, that's where I got this it, the this like understanding that it wasn't me against them, them being the mothers.
Because what I had always thought was like, I actually felt a lot of like guilt for like what you were saying, like living a luxurious life. You know? I love that you were like supportive of them. Like what's wrong with living a luxurious life? You know? But I felt guilty about that. 'cause I was like, I saw the suffering actually that it is to be a mother that like you're really tired and you're really overworked and there's all this fucking bullshit.
And then I was like, oh, I'm not against that. I am for that. Like we are in this together like we are sisters in this sisterhood. Do you know what I mean? And then when. I really felt like I was processing rage for all the mothers who honestly don't have time and space to process this rage who don't even get to fucking see it because we're just busy.
You know? We're just fucking [01:10:00] busy living our lives. But it felt so ancient. It was like this ancient rage that was coming out me, and then all of a sudden I just fucking threw up all over the place, which like never happens for me. I always have a really hard time throwing up in ceremony. And it was just like it felt so I could feel it.
It was this nauseous disgustingness that I was like, this needs to get out of my body. And it just came outta nowhere and it was like projectile vomit everywhere. And then I had to like run out of the fucking thing and I was like throwing up off of the balcony for like a good long while. It was like the most throw up I've ever had in my entire life.
And it was insane. And it really felt like I was just getting something. Like I, I saw the truth of how things really should be and I also saw how. Unaligned we are and how confused we are and how broken the system is. And I think there was something healing in that for me. And I also think that that continues to be part of some path that I'm [01:11:00] moving forward with.
And I don't know what that is, but it's this feeling of like, I used to think that like I needed to do something to make up for the fact that I wasn't a mother. You know? Like I like, oh, like I have to give, I have to then mother all these other children, which is interesting because I am interested in that.
But it's not helpful when it comes from like a should or I have to, or because I feel guilty, you know? Or I felt like, oh, I'm just gonna donate all of this time that I have to charity and to volunteering. But it was coming really from this place of like guilt and obligation, I think. I think, yeah, debt. I think I have actually those, um, desires in me that are actually very true, but they're tainted by this.
They were tainted by this experience of debt, and now it just feels like something else. It just feels like. I don't have the words for it, but I think the beginning of just seeing clearly is, is a really good beginning and I, and I am interested in seeing where that's gonna take me.
Kyley: I have to. Yeah. So listeners, as Eva said, I was [01:12:00] crying as you were talking about that vision, and I could still cry. I felt like this has happened before, but I felt like I was like receiving. I felt like I was receiving by transmission. Something like, something that you got in that plant medicine ceremony.
I feel like I was receiving something,
Eva: Mm-hmm.
Kyley: by extension because it just, like, yeah, I immediately started crying and I was feeling this image of, um, I actually was just hearing like, don't you, oh, I'm gonna cry. I just was hearing this voice. It was like, don't you see you're enough? And like, I mean, so much of motherhood, pain of it is like this, the constant not enoughness feeling, you know? 'cause you just like love your kids so much and you want them to have a good life and then the world. So it's like, it's like the world is so inadequate for our perfect, beautiful children and.
We are [01:13:00] not, we are not enough to compensate for that. Right. Um, and I just like, I think, I mean, I think I should see something beneath words, but also I just was feeling like, I just was feeling this like, don't you see how you're enough? Um, so
Eva: Yeah, I mean, I think, I think, uh, like I think this may, maybe might be the big, when I say there's a beginning of something, I feel like this may be part of it, but just this acknowledgement of like, it's impossible for mothers to fucking do it all. Like, it's just, you're not meant to, you're just, you're not meant to.
It's like the same way that the brain isn't meant to process all this fucking information that we get on the internet about like everything that's going on. Like we're just not meant wired to work that way. And so the sis like individuals, like mothers par, fathers parents, like, we're not meant to really operate this way.
And there's something like really broken about this. And so [01:14:00] therefore there is also this pressure of like. You're doing a really fucking good job. Like you're doing a really, really, really, really, really good job. And also like, I don't know, the rage felt so healthy to feel that I don't actually think like everyone should be walking around with that rage all the time.
'cause then we probably couldn't function. But it was just this rage of like, I don't know, almost like this beautiful energy of a mother being like, I deserve like a thousand times more. I deserve so much because I used to be on the throne. It really was this image of like, we did come from a matriarchal society.
At least some people think that we did. And then it all got flipped and. I think there's this knowing in our bodies that like this womb space, you know, like women are the creator of life. And again, it wasn't me against you and me against mothers. It was like we women, it was like a women thing. Like we are together in this is like we are the creators of life.
And just because I'm not creating life, it doesn't mean that I don't [01:15:00] like hold you and all women as equally powerful because we, that's what we do. And it was like, I don't know, it was this feeling of like, okay, let's come back to like our ancient ways and the ancient truth. And I don't know how it might not happen in this lifetime, but I feel like these experiences, I think really do make a difference.
Uh, even if it's just energetically, and I can't explain it, but you and I have talked about before, like when we see something, clearly it ripples out to everything in the past and everything in the future, you know?
Kyley: Couple things. One, as you were sharing that, what I, the phrase that I was hearing is like. You are enough. And it's not enough. Like, like it feels inadequate 'cause it fucking is. But you are not the inadequacy. And I remember before Desi was going into kindergarten, we homeschool a few listeners might remember.
We homeschooled him for kindergarten, which is when I learned that I'm really not cut out to be a homeschool mom. Um, [01:16:00] no, we had a good time and I'm very glad, very glad. That was a choice we made. And also like, that's not the path for our family long term, but, but it was inspired by yet another school shooting.
And also Roe v. Wade had been overturned anyways, I was like, so angry. I was so angry and was just like, my whole body was like, Nope. It's like not, not the right thing for him to go to kindergarten. Um, which I still maintain. That was a good choice anyway. Important point I'm trying to make is I remember my husband very lovingly trying to like, he was like, you're so angry.
Like, do you think it's good for you to be this angry? And I said, and I will never forget, I said, if every mother in the world was as angry as she, uh, like actually is, the world would change overnight.
Eva: Yes.
Kyley: And I, so I feel like what you are speaking to feels, I had, that feels very much that moment where I was like, yeah, actually I think every, if every mother was as angry as she actually is, but is too fucking desired to
Eva: Exactly. [01:17:00] Exactly. And so it,
Kyley: you. Thanks for taking one for the team and vomiting it up for us.
Eva: it really felt like because it's, yeah, y'all are too tired to be carrying around all this rage, but it's there. Even if you don't, like, I actually believe like, 'cause I didn't know that it was there, you know what I mean? I didn't know that it was there. And so really what I was, what I feel like is like, we know, we know how it should be and that we know that this is bullshit.
And so like if we're able to tap into it, we would see that we are fucking pissed with every right to be pissed. And, and that anger is actually good. That healthy kind of anger, you know? Not like the Yes.
Kyley: The anger that moves and that sets boundaries. I also wanna reflect, like, like you, um, in terms of like the, the debt, debt part that has faded, but the like, service thing, whatever it wants to be, I just wanna offer, I experience all the fucking time with so much [01:18:00] gratitude. The compassion that you offer me as a mother that I often don't offer.
Like you are often the person who's like, wow, I'm so impressed that you're like doing it all. Or like, you know, we're recording this. I got up this morning early before school because you're in Taiwan, right? And so like, we're like balancing birdie coming in and snuggling with me while we're recording.
You are always reflecting back to me like, oh, thanks for like, making the schedule work. Or like, I'm so impressed, like, I'll drop the ball on something and you'll be like, I'm so impressed by how much you are doing. And you have done that consistently this whole time we've been doing the show. And it is like such an in a, a gift that I don't actually have words for how often you hold up to mirror, just to like, remind me that I am doing a lot.
Remind me, like, um, yeah, I mean I feel like,
Eva: Yeah, that you're doing a really good job juggling some shit that's like really hard to juggle, like you're doing an excellent job because I think most mothers feel like they're not doing an excellent
Kyley: we, yes, we definitely [01:19:00] do. Which you know, I think is by design and I think this image that you had of like all of us connected and like all of us having like a role, I just wanna offer that I feel you fulfill, I feel you in that role of like. Being the person who reminds me of my enoughness and being the person who like reflects back to me.
Like, you, you, you're good kid a lot, and, and you share, you reflect that mirror back in ways that I'm like, I should do more. I could do. And like constantly, I'm like, oh, just even now when you said you're doing a really good job, but I was like skipping right over that.
Eva: Mm-hmm.
Kyley: And so I just wanna say thank you because, um, it's, it's so, it's a really, really generous thing that I don't think you even realize that you do.
And I really, really, really, really, really appreciate it.
Eva: Oh my goodness. I just love this. Like women, like all, I mean, this is what our whole podcast is usually, but you know, it's like, it is this, like, I've come to this like [01:20:00] woman supporting women experience, you know, in motherhood, and you, you support me and I support you. And it's like back and forth and, and I, and I'm so grateful for that plant medicine experience because I didn't even know that I was experiencing because, because again, it was like the self condemnation, which then led, led to guilt, which then led to a projection of like separation with pe with like the, not you, but like mother, like the idea of mothers in general.
And like, somehow I felt guilty and like I felt like I wasn't enough and therefore there was like an othering happening. And now I don't actually think that that's. There as much anymore. I, I don't know, dare I say at all. I don't know what we'll continue to see, but I just love the solidarity in that. It feels really good to me because I didn't know how, or I guess I did know, but how, um, how terrible that felt.
It's, that feels shitty, you know? 'cause it's not the truth. It's not the truth of what we are.
Kyley: Yeah. Hmm.
Eva: Mm-hmm. [01:21:00] Uh, and also I think it just opens it up for like, I'm ready for change. Like, I don't know what that looks like. I, and I don't know if it's gonna happen in our fly lifetime, but just all of us women together, like ready and open for change for like the systems to be different where we come back more into a balance where we're not in a matriarch or a patriarch, but a togetherness.
Kyley: Yep. Yep.
Eva: Yeah.
Kyley: Um, I have a question for you,
Eva: Yes.
Kyley: for the listener. Who was you? For the listener who is feeling indecision, what, what advice would you give them?
Eva: I think the worst thing that we're afraid of, or the thing that feels most scary about this is that we're going to make some sort of huge mistake one way or another. There's just, I think there's a lot of fear wrapped up in like. You know, it feels like a big life decision and that if I don't figure it out, [01:22:00] somehow my life will suffer for it, or will be less than.
And I think, I just want to assure you that wherever you are on your path, like you will come to peace with it however it comes in. And I, for me, it came in, in this unexpected way for you. It could be that truly your time, your your, what do you call it? Your biological clock just runs out. Like, who knows?
And that could really fucking suck. And if that is your path, I also really trust in all of us to be able to meet ourselves there and to feel the grief and to feel the emotions and eventually like, come to peace with it. You know what I mean? I think that's what I was so scared of the most was that like, that I was gonna fuck up my life somehow or miss out, you know, it just feels, but I, I really trust in every person's ability to.
Figure it out or come to peace if you are just willing to be open to also [01:23:00] some of the discomfort that comes with it and like, it's okay and it's not, it's, it may not happen on your timeline, you know, like some people, like me included, like really wanna figure it out. It's like, okay, I'm 39, you know, I need to figure this out by 40 so that I can do X, Y, Z.
And it may not shake out that way, and I think you're gonna be okay no matter what.
Kyley: Yeah.
Eva: Yeah.
Kyley: I watched this video a while ago that kind of blew my mind. That was like, if you are struggling with indecision, her, her perspective was it's because you think that there's one decision that's the right decision and that all the other decisions have punishment.
Eva: Hmm.
Kyley: so you're afraid to make the wrong choice because you're afraid, right?
You're afraid that you're gonna get hurt and that you'll be punished if you make the wrong decision. And that really stuck with me. 'cause then it brought a lot of compassion when I'm trying to make a decision that I'm like, oh, what I'm actually afraid of is like, I don't know. It brought a lot of compassion for me.
And [01:24:00] I, I just wanna offer, I really, truly believe, like, you can't fuck this up, right? The idea that there's one life path where you're fulfilled and one life path where you're not like, is an illusion. And every life path will have, its, will have really big grief. Like every, no matter you don't, you don't get to get out of this without getting, like, feeling real grief and having to like manage, you know, what feel like missed opportunities or mistakes or regrets.
Like every choice you make will have. Like
Eva: what?
Kyley: all of it. Everything all at once. And, and then it which, and so I just wanna offer, like someone who's really fulfilled by motherhood, I can also see that I would've like, there's all sorts of things that would've been great if I was like, if I didn't, if I didn't do this path right, that would've been really cool and fun.
And
Eva: you would've fucking rocked it. You know? You've been doing all this fucking shit. And also seeing, like, if I could see myself [01:25:00] having like two little kids, I don't know, like I think I would be an awesome mom. Do you know what I
Kyley: sure what you,
Eva: yeah. And I think, and I, and also it would be messy as fuck, you know, like it's, it's all, every experience is gonna include all of it no matter what,
Kyley: so like permission, 'cause you're gonna fuck it up anyway, right? Like no matter, like in the sense like we're human. And so like you can't fuck it up because fucking it up is inevitable. So you might as well just like. Like go forward in one direction. Like flip a coin, right? Like, like
Eva: It's almost like you can't do it wrong and no matter what, you're gonna fuck it up. Like you're,
Kyley: that's what I'm trying to say.
Yes, yes, yes. And so like permission, that's what I want. That's the like spark fairy dust that I wanna sprinkle in is just like permission that whatever you choose will be okay. And whatever you choose will be caught will be emotion. Will it be an [01:26:00] intense emotional journey and also you to your beautiful point, you will be able to meet yourself
Eva: Mm-hmm. Yeah.
Kyley: Yeah.
Eva: Woo. Yay. I love this conversation. Thank you so much for all of your super thoughtful questions. I'm so glad we finally got to record this because it just really feels like a nice, I don't know, a nice, I don't know, end to like a chapter, which will just probably be the beginning of a new one.
'cause maybe if we're still doing this episode of when we're 60, I might come on here crying to you, telling you that I'm sad that we don't, I don't have kids. Who knows? And I'm
Kyley: Yeah. And then we will sit here and feel that and be with that and it will be beautiful.
Eva: exactly.
Kyley: Yeah.
Eva: Whew. All right. Are you ready for joy, my friend? Yeah. Do you wanna share first what's something that's bringing you joy.
Kyley: Um, I am reading a really lovely book, so long time listeners might remember that a lot [01:27:00] years ago we had a woman named Spring Washam on the podcast,
Eva: Amazing episode. Go look it up.
Kyley: amazing, amazing episode. And at the time, did I already mention this is a Joy, is this the second time I bring this book up as a joy?
Eva: I don't think so. Wait, is it? If it
Kyley: so, well, great. It just needs, it
Eva: hopefully listeners don't remember either.
Kyley: it means it needs, she needs extra reference. So longtime listeners will remember this episode, and in that episode she talks about Harriet Tubman and she talks about working with the spirit of Harriet Tubman a lot. And I have always loved Harriet Tubman.
I mean, how can you not like, but I have like, felt increasingly like a, like a, like a closeness to her energy. And um, even sometimes have like, felt like I have a picture of her that hangs in my son's room. Like if there's like a Harriet Tubman comes on a podcast, my kid's like, mom, mom come in, they're singing a song about Harriet Tubman, you know, but then like, I have had even like in like meditation, I will like feel her energy and I'm like, I'm a white lady.
Like [01:28:00] I don't get access to, you know, Harriet Tubman as an ancestor. And she's just like, child, like I get to choose. Um. Uh, that's not for, that's not, that's not for you to decide. Um, but I'm reading this book that Spring wrote that's called The Spirit of Harriet Tubman. And Spring is a biracial woman. She writes this book during 2020 during the Black Lives Matter.
She's been, this is like, you know, decades long meditation teacher at that point. And she basically starts having these like really profound spiritual experiences of Harriet Tubman, like cha like channeling through her and visiting her. And she starts having these like, really just like long devotional practices.
And she writes this book essentially with Harriet Tubman, and it is about her life, but it's also just like all of this beautiful wisdom that Harriet Tubman has for us in this moment about freedom and liberation. You know, she's like, a line she gives me a lot is like, I'm in the business of freedom, [01:29:00] which I just think is a great line.
Eva: Oh.
Kyley: Um, and I am just like, I'm just loving this book. It's, it's really easy. It's very like, digestible. It's a quick read and
Eva: What's it called? I can't remember.
Kyley: Spirit of Harriet Tubman, awakening from the Underground,
Eva: have, you like just referenced this book many times, so I know, I feel like it must really be doing something and I'm curious to know like, what is it that you feel when you read this book?
Kyley: I mean, I do, I do feel a connection to Harriet Tubman and, and in particular, and I, I, I feel a connection to Harriet Tubman and I think that part of what I'm getting out of this book and like other things, like, I read, I read an a novel about Harriet Tubman earlier in the summer, and like when I'm done with this, I, you wanna read her biography?
I kind of, what I'm, what I am, I think what I am most strongly feeling is this sense of like, Harriet Tubman's got, like, got work to do through you. And I just feel like there's this like almost this [01:30:00] desire to like. Swim in her energy and like swim in her medicine because I do feel like, you know, like she's often says me like, I'm in the business of freedom and your job is freedom.
So like, let's go
Eva: Mm.
Kyley: the, um, and and so I think that is like the strongest thing is just like, there's this like need almost like when you're, when I was really, when I was pregnant with Desi, I was obsessed. I was fucking obsessed with spinach. And I would have these like giant, like raw spinach smoothies every single morning.
Like clearly I needed something that was in spinach and like, kind of feels like that. Like there is something in the, in the medicine and magic of Harriet Tub and spirit that I clearly need right now. And so she's just like, alright, coming on in, coming through. Um, and so my job feels like just to consume her media in any and all forms.
Um, and I think that, I think that. That is what [01:31:00] we need right now. Right? Like this is, go ahead. You were gonna say something?
Eva: Well, what is the energy of Sp of Harriet Tubman, do you think? If you could sum it up, you could pick like three words.
Kyley: It is like a gentle and fierce love. It is this kind of like, like, like child, I don't accept nonsense. And also we have work to do and also you are more than capable, so let's go.
Eva: Oh, I love it. Oh, so good. Yeah. Hopefully I will follow suit and read this one day, because if, yeah, just the way that you talk about it is telling me that I should probably get in. Yeah, there's
Kyley: And if you, if you like the audiobook Spring reads, the audiobook version, which is also really, she's just got a really. Lovely energy. And so, um, I recommend that too if you, I'm doing both. Um, and also I should say, I started reading this in August and was like, whoa, this book is big. Because what I was really feeling is like, whoa, like,
Eva: The energy.
Kyley: Harriet Tubman is, is big
Eva: in the room. Yeah,
Kyley: was in the room [01:32:00] and then I put it away for two months and I am back to it.
Eva: yeah,
Kyley: Which I think is often the, what our process needs to be.
Eva: yeah. Yeah. Amazing. Yay.
Kyley: How about you? My love? What's bringing you joy?
Eva: Well, I had also, I had shared with you offline that I wanted to have a discussion with you about, uh, K-pop demon
Kyley: Oh, yes.
Eva: So that is my joy, I think, not just for this week, but just in, in general as a thing. Um, I love it as a cartoon. Also, I love it as like cultural representation and
Kyley: Yeah.
Eva: it's like so fucking cool to me.
So I'm assuming if you guys don't know if, if you're a parent, chances are, you know what K-pop demon hunters is. If you're not a parent. It's this, it's like the most watched thing ever on Netflix because kids tend to watch things 20 fucking times in a row.
Kyley: [01:33:00] Also, it's fucking great and everybody should watch it 20 times in a row.
Eva: Yeah, but it's, it's amazing. The most watched thing ever on, on Netflix, which is insane. And it's a car anime cartoon where it's like three, three female characters who are pop stars, who are like K-pop stars, who are also demon hunters, which is just so freaking cool. And I'm like, this is such an amazing idea.
I don't think the people who created it knew how huge it was gonna be. And I think they're just like, whoa. Like they've just created this whole sensation. But for me it's more just like, this is a really popular thing that kids are watching now that is exposing them to Asian culture
Kyley: Yeah.
Eva: and normalizing that.
And that's like, honestly, like the, I don't, so I don't know how many times you've seen it, but even the food, you know, like they have the, because like I love, they talk about food so much because Asian people fucking love food and they're eating their like instant noodles, you know? And they're like, and all of these things.
And, um. I remember growing up and being like embarrassed. You know, [01:34:00] there's a very common story of like, you know, you being like ethnic or whatever, and I, I, I would bring my Asian dinner or lunch to school and being so embarrassed 'cause I would get made fun of it for it because they'd be like, Ew, what's that?
It smells gross. It looks gross, or whatever. And I remember my mom making me sushi and like, her putting her soul into, you know, like, like just putting so much time into it. And I threw it away in the trash because I was so embarrassed because I was being made fun of. And I'm like, it's just so heartbreaking.
Right? And now I just feel like that's not gonna happen. You know? And it's also just cool that there are three women who are like, who are, um, the heroes of this? And they're like, badass and they're like warriors. And it is a little bit like Sailor Moonish, which I love, but, you know, all of it, just all of the, the things that I love about it.
And it's also just like, yeah, really good. And the, and the songs are super catchy.
Kyley: I feel the songs are so fucking good. I've been listening to them on repeat. If I could sing, I would've started singing. Take down in the background just now as you were. Um, and I think, [01:35:00] um, God, it is so soothing and healing to see yourself represented, like it touches something that I think you don't recognize you need until you get it.
Like.
Eva: the first time I saw a concert, which wasn't, this was in Austin. Okay. I was fucking already 39 years old and I saw an Asian singer. Like I went to a concert and it was like the first time where it was, I, I've gone to a lot of shows, but it was the first time where I was an Asian woman as the main person on stage, not like as a bass player or whatever.
And I just started bawling. 'cause I didn't, I didn't even know that I would have that reaction. I didn't know that I needed it, but I was like, I've never seen this before and this, so therefore it is a big deal.
Kyley: Yes. This is like a, this is a kind of a, might a silly example, but I remember when my husband and I went to go see Ghostbusters when they did the all female Ghostbusters, which is like kind of a very mid, like mid-level movie, you know, like it didn't do super well and we left the movie and my [01:36:00] husband who like really loves movies and is like, can be a movie, not like critic in a bad way, but like,
Eva: He's a totally a movie nerd, which I
Kyley: He's a total movie nerd. Right? So he's like, immediately kind of like breaking down, like what worked, what didn't work, how it could have been. And I was like, you need to stop and have the conversation with somebody else because that, like, that very average, like basic comedy that was just about women not in romance, just like women being goofy and having shenanigans healed something so deep.
I don't have, I don't have room
Eva: totally. I have the same response. I was like, I love this. You know, like, yeah. Part of me was like that, that movie was like, I loved it for, yeah, it was great. It was like an epic movie to me, you know, even though it was like kind of fine, but it was epic to me.
Kyley: yes, yes. Like, oh. And it's just, I love those moments. I'm so, um, I just, I love those moments where we see ourselves and just like something is like deeply healed. I also bawled my fucking eyes out at the end of k-pop demon hunters. And like the whole next day was like, like. Kind of like process. [01:37:00] I feel like I received like some deep spiritual healing in that movie.
And I told my husband, I forget the main character's name with her purple hair. Do you remember her name?
Eva: Oh. Uh, I know my, my nephew's gonna kill me for forgetting this, but I can't remember off the top of my head. Someone out there is listening and screaming, but
Kyley: But I basically was like, I, I am her. Like, I just felt so deeply, like, I was like, I,
Eva: wait. Tell me more.
Kyley: okay, well, okay. Spoiler alert. So if you don't, if you haven't seen it yet, just like, stop listening to us now. Okay. But the, like, her, her arc is really one about shame, right? Like really, her story is one about like the, like tremendous
Eva: Rumi. I had to look it up.
Kyley: roomy.
Thank you. Yes. And like her story, which is the main story of the movie, like, is like about the arc of like what Shane does to us and how like we internalize these stories when we're young that like. The ways we exist in the world are wrong, and then we just like exist in so much pain. And I think specifically what I [01:38:00] received in that movie is like, we've talked about this before about how like our healing journey, we can unintentionally weaponize against us.
And how there has been a part of me for a long time who's just like, we're just, we're just gonna heal. We're just gonna heal and then we'll be healed and then we'll feel good and then it will be fine. And I'm just gonna keep on being a demon hunter, badass warrior. And then eventually all the shame will go away.
And then like, and then I will be fine and then I will be safe. And there was something in that movie that was like, oh, like no, I am always like, I am always demon. Like I am like, like, right. It's like the reminder of like, oh no. Like there is no excising for healing. There is like, just like really like letting it exist and letting yourself be perceived for the truth of who you are.
That was just very.
Eva: Yeah. Oh, so beautiful. Yeah, I mean it's, it's funny because there's just many layers to this. Okay. It's like a kid's movie, but I think it's very layered and I really love it so much and I'm so [01:39:00] happy that our kids are having access to something like so beautiful. And also I, I think I'm just amazed.
I don't know how, like there's something also I think pride maybe, I dunno if that's the right word, but like, I'm honored that something that is being watched is of Asian culture and Asian people that isn't like being like, made fun of or thought of as less than, or just, it's like, no, this is cool. And I'm like, wait, this is cool.
I'm like, this is cool. Like, it's weird because we, we live like. You know, we're pretty, we've we're progressive in so many ways and it's not like, like this is new, but somehow it still feels Yeah. Healing. So it's
Kyley: it's new though, right? Like that it's like a very long stereotype where like the Asian characters, like the sidekick butt of the joke or, or it's like a weird niche martial arts, but like, on like, it's like very niche. Like I don't, I can't think of a bunch of movies. I [01:40:00] mean, even like, this is, I'm dating myself.
Like, even remember Charlie's Angels when we were kids and Lucy, Lucy, Leo? Is that, or
Eva: Lou, Lucy
Kyley: Lu. Like, she's like not the main Charlie's Angels. She's like the side Charlie's Angel. You know,
Eva: how many times people have called me Lucy Lu just walking down the street like it was so fucking annoying. Like just some racist bullshit. Be like, yo, Lucy Lu. I'd be like, oh my God. It was the worst when she was really popular, but yes, she was like the sidekick and also,
Kyley: so fucking insane. And she's great in the total badass and like, but like, like yeah, I, there aren't I? I, uh, yeah. I love,
Eva: of like, yes. It's kind of like when, um, black Panthers came out for, and it was like in the mainstream and it was just all a cult. A cult, a movie. Black, black, black people, black culture, but like done in this super cool way. Do you know what I mean? And it was just like in the mainstream. And that's
Kyley: Yes.
Eva: this is too
Kyley: I'm thinking about too, even, um, have you seen Turning Red, which is all another animated movie.
Eva: I have seen it. I love that one
Kyley: [01:41:00] Ugh. I love that movie. That's another really, really great movie with Asian characters that's animated. But that's a different tone in the sense that that is like a very, like, she's like goofy and she's going through puberty and like, this is like, they are fucking rock stars and they are warriors and they are bad.
Like you just like wa you just like, like when you watch Turning Red, you identify with her in the way that you're like, oh yeah, I'm also goofy and awkward. You watch K Up demon hundreds and you're like, I wanna be these
Eva: Do. Totally. Yes. Yes. Yeah. Oh my God, it's so funny. Okay. Anyway, this is such a good joy. I'm so happy that two well grown adults can geek out about K-pop demon hunters.
Kyley: For sure. We're actually going to see it this weekend in movie, in a movie theater. 'cause they like did some deals now to like put it in movie theaters. And so my kids and I are going and I
Eva: Oh my god. Fun.
Kyley: I know. And they're, I, part of me was like, should we get, should we get like wigs? Should we all like dress up?
But you can't even get the fucking costumes 'cause they're all sold out. 'cause everybody loves this so
Eva: Yeah. Yeah. [01:42:00] All right, listeners, we love you so much. Thank you for being here. If you know someone you think would benefit from this show, a friend, a sister, a coworker, pass it along. We, yeah.
Kyley: And we have more, uh, advice column questions coming your way. So send us your advice, send us the, the issues you need advice on and we'll take care of you, boo.
Eva: We love you.