Hello Universe

Hope is for Dopes

Episode Notes

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Episode Transcription

203

Kyley: [00:00:00] Hey everybody, it's Kyley.

Eva: And it's Eva.

Kyley: Welcome back to Hello Universe. Um, hello my beautiful friend. I'm so

Kyley: happy to have you. 

Kyley: We've talked about this, we've talked about talking about this for a long time.

Eva: Yeah, we have, we have a whole episode exploring hope and when it's actually like toxic and unhelpful and, and, and when it is actually the most beautiful thing.[00:01:00]

Kyley: Yeah.

Eva: Um, and yeah, you and I have danced around this topic because it's something that we both experienced in our lives in like, you know, personal ways that have been confusing.

Eva: And like you said before we started recording, like usually when there's a topic like this that we've been exploring in our own lives and going back and forth with before we even record an episode, ends up to be, ends up being like a pretty juicy topic. So I'm excited and also just thankful, by the way, for this space for us to explore.

Kyley: Yes. Well, and just, we all know this is obviously what happens behind the scenes is there's certain topics that are like any one of, either one of us is like chewing on or is alive, or is, you know. Confusing or illuminating in our personal lives, and

Kyley: we just ping pong it back and forth behind the scenes. And then when it's about, I don't know, somewhere between 60 to 80% baked, we come and we try to like,

Eva: Fully bake it.

Kyley: yeah, do a little more cooking on the show.

Eva: Yeah, exactly. Okay.

Kyley: Um,

Eva: How do we, how [00:02:00] do we even ex like dive in here?

Kyley: Okay. Uh, well let's, like the, this is the framing of the questions that we've been asking around hope. Right? In so many ways. Obviously, like hope is, you know, the light at the end of the tunnel, the candle in the dark, like hope is a thing that, I mean, one, I think we think of as really positive and I think two, a lot of us have used to our tremendous benefit.

Kyley: And we have, especially in those moments where shit is hard

Eva: Mm-hmm.

Kyley: and there is a more, I. A nefarious way that we can lean on what we call hope. And that can keep us that, that I think we both have also observed ways of like keeping us stuck or attached or in denial. And so I think part of our intention of the show is to kind of parse when is hope a really helpful thing and when is it perhaps [00:03:00] doing you a disservice and how do you tell the difference?

Kyley: And, um, Yeah.

Kyley: And, and what else is there? There's like, there's like a third thing that's like a question mark mystery box, you

Kyley: know? 

Eva: the question. Yeah, I mean, I think that's a really, you've started us, started us off really beautifully and I just wanna share a little context for myself, like this idea that maybe hope is not helpful. We start, like I said, we've talked about, we started talking about what, like six months ago or something?

Eva: I don't know. But that's not a long time. Like that's a, basically it was a revelation to me and it was really new. It never occurred to me ever. That hope could be an unhelpful, bad thing because this is like, what I wanna point out is like the culture that we live in. Um, it's just, the story is hope is beautiful.

Eva: Hope [00:04:00] is the thing that helps us persevere. Like I was watching, um, have you ever seen the movie The Shawshank Redemption?

Kyley: of course.

Eva: Yeah, it's like one of the, okay, good. It's like one of the best movies ever. One of my favorites, right? So I go back to that one all the time and the whole theme is like hope. Hope is what keeps us alive.

Eva: You know? Like it's about these two men or many men who are like imprisoned. One of them like wrongfully imprisoned and like, and it's inspiring, you know? Like we, the whole vibe around hope is, it's like, and I feel like we hear it in politics, you know what I mean? It's just that this word that's thrown around to instill some sort of sense of like power and love and

Kyley: Generosity

Eva: Yes.

Eva: It's like this really 

Kyley: forward movement. 

Eva: Yes. And I think that's why it's so tricky because six months ago when I actually saw how I experienced hope in a way that was like really painful, I was like, no one ever told me no one. Why? [00:05:00] Anyone tell me that. Like then like this could be the. That, that I was confused or that maybe sometimes hope.

Eva: Yeah, it wasn't hope that it was something else, and so that's why this concept kind of like blows my mind because I would also wager that there's still a lot of people out there who, this is new, where it's like they would've never suspected, like they haven't seen it or experienced it yet, where they're like, oh wait, hope is actually, um, I would actually say, well, my experience was realizing that it, that what I thought was hope wasn't actually hope.

Eva: It was just desperation.

Kyley: Mm. So that's what I'm gonna say is that I wonder if some of the things that we call hope, but we'll uncover is that they are actually like wearing a cheap mask

Eva: Yes, 

Kyley: and it's a different, it's a actually a different energy. Um, or, or something else. Or something that's like, you know, uh, a more. Painful or harmful [00:06:00] thing that's wrapped around hope, that's like co-opted hope. And then if, if this is our like, agenda setting too. I think at the, I suspect this gets closer to the end of the show. I'm also curious to know Theta identified the difference between hope and face. Because,

Kyley: because to me there's something about, like, hope is this energy of like, something better could be possible and faith is potentially this energy of like something, something better already.

Kyley: Is I, I'm not, I'm not fully sure what the distinction is,

Kyley: but I 

Eva: is this the third question mark box you were 

Kyley: this is the third question 

Eva: Yes. 

Kyley: me is like, um, because my own experience around hope has also been, you know, obviously listeners know last year, you know, I went through this big friendship breakup if you've been listening, and it was really, really, really painful. In part because of the loss of the friendship and in part because of the, all of the shit that it dragged up to the circus, right? That was much older than the, than the friendship. [00:07:00] And, um, and were different types of hope that showed up for me. Like different things that I had hope around that were like a fucking saving grace, right?

Kyley: In like in a true rock bottom, dark net of the soul, the idea that things could work out better

Kyley: is like an essential lifeline to keep you out of despair, right? Because otherwise, like, I'll just fucking give up right here. Right? And, um, and I think, yeah, part of the process, I think in some ways we're being kind of vague and so maybe we can start shifting to like a, anyways, a

Eva: Yeah, because I wanna go into my like, well, I'm hap, I wanna share my real life example. 'cause I, to put it into like context, you know, so that, yeah. Mm-hmm.

Kyley: And I, and I will share mine too, but I, I think, I feel like some of the dance for me has been like having hope [00:08:00] and it being really beautiful and really vital and like, I dunno how I would've gone through this without you. And then also at various checkpoints, essentially having to, having to like, hold the hope up and say like, is, is this is the specific flavor of the hope, of the hope that I'm carrying, still serving me?

Kyley: Or do I need to like, put, do, do I need to put this down and instead be hoping for something else?

Eva: Mm. Mm-hmm.

Kyley: but I can get to that a little bit,

Kyley: a little bit more. But there's like a, there's a way that I think in order to have a, have hope, maintain its generosity, it's like we have to look clearly at it.

Eva: Yes.

Kyley: we're, when, especially if we're using it as our like kind of lamp lamp to get through hell like

Kyley: you, I think we do have to stop and like check it

Kyley: and look at it clearly on a regular basis.

Eva: I think you kind of just answered the question, and we'll get to examples again. I think that's like, make this [00:09:00] more, you know, tangible and down to earth and and whatnot. But I have a, a feeling that that's the answer right there, which is that

Kyley: Mm

Eva: it's like with all things, it's a, it's something that we like, are just present with on a moment to moment basis.

Eva: And we check and it's subjective. It's like what worked, what was working like for a week when we were in like the pit of despair was, and hope was the, you like the, like you said, the lamp in the darkness. Like that's great. And then eventually then you start to notice, and then you check in again. Then you start to notice, oh, actually now it's not doing what it was doing.

Eva: Now this lamp is getting really fucking heavy

Eva: and I'm not in the dark anymore. So like, I'm gonna have to put this down, you 

Kyley: Oh, I love this metaphor. Yes, yes, yes, yes.

Kyley: Okay. Do you wanna give a little more of your kind

Kyley: of specific 

Eva: So. My, well for this, this idea of like, um, hope is for Dopes came from Byron Katie, so Byron Katie, you know, as you as [00:10:00] listeners may know, she's, I'm a big fan of her work.

Eva: Um, yeah, she just had this talk. She was just, I think I, like, I went to one of her events and she was just talking about her hope is for dopes and it was so funny to me, but it was just so contr contrary to I think what I had always understood about hope. And I think it was, and for me, maybe, I think the reason it was extra like revolutionary for me is because I think I identify as being someone who's like really generally like, hopeful and positive, you know, like, and maybe I even see it as a strength, you know?

Eva: Um, and so it just sort of like jarred me or not, it was just, it was like a record skip moment where I was like, wait, hope is for dopes. What do you mean? Um, and. She talks about it in a way that's very much in line with like, you know, Buddhist teachings, which is suffering, is resisting what is, and [00:11:00] actually liberation begins first with complete acceptance of like, yeah, what is right now.

Eva: And it doesn't mean then that you don't change. But as we've talked about often in this podcast, it's first we accept that's like the always the primary step. And then the, the paradox is, once I accept, then I can change. Or once I accept the situation, then it can change. But change doesn't happen without acceptance first.

Eva: And 

Kyley: there's this, so, there's this way that I think we both have experienced and seen that hope can do this thing where it keeps us, it like it keeps us from having to be accountable to what is

Kyley: right. It can keep us in this place of, um, and again, it's complicated 'cause it sounds good, right?

Kyley: Just focus on the positive, 

Eva: That's why it's so tricky. 'cause you're like, I didn't, [00:12:00] I couldn't even imagine that I was doing something wrong. Oh, wait, so can I give you this example? So they, going back to my example. Okay. So, so then when she said that it was like a light bulb moment went off. Like, and, and I thought back to my previous relationship with my, with Adam, who's, you know now, my dear friend and he, we've been friends for a long time and the whole situation was that like, you know, he was struggling with depression for like a really long time.

Eva: And that was really hard for me and our relationship. And you know, we, I've, we've talked about this on the podcast and you know, Kyley was there, you were there supporting me throughout the whole thing. And, and um, you know, we, he, we went through like some really, uh, invasive procedures and tried all of these different things.

Eva: And I recognized when she said the hope is for dopes things, I saw myself, I, it's almost like I had an image, a flashback of myself in that, in those moments where

Eva: I, I really wanted the relationship to [00:13:00] work, right? I like really loved and cared about Adam and I really wanted it to work. And so, but in a place of desperation, because we were like out of options and also we didn't know what the fuck to do. It was like all I could do was hope. And it was like the story of like, no, don't worry.

Eva: It's gonna get better. It's gonna get better. Like, we're gonna figure this out. Um, yeah, we're gonna figure this out. And again, that like, sort of like positive spin, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. And I saw so clearly that what I thought was hope, this idea of like, it's gonna get better. We're gonna figure this out, was just.

Eva: Absolute desperation, like abject desperation. Like again, I've told this story to you, Kyley. I don't know if I ever mentioned it on the podcast, but like crying at the, being at the hospital, like crying on the bathroom floor and just being like, oh my God. Like how I really felt in that. Like that's actually how I really felt in that moment on the bathroom floor was like finally fucking seeing the situation for what it was really clearly, which I was not letting myself see [00:14:00] like that how much I was struggling and how much we were struggling and how bad the situation actually was because my quote unquote hope was covering up letting the reality in.

Eva: And because I wasn't letting in like how painful the situation actually was because it was too scary. You know, this would, it would have, it was, it could have meant the end of our relationship, which it kind of was. And you know, that relationship was a lot of my sense of safety and familiarity, comfort, blah, blah, blah.

Eva: It really was, I was using hope as a guise for not having to touch into that pain,

Eva: but I didn't even know it because, because hope is promoted as like a, the thing, it's, it's, it's how you get through situations. It's strength, it's love, it's beautiful. Um, and to like do anything else, but hope is actually like, [00:15:00] uh, you giving up or that's despairing or you're being, you know, um, you know, people always talk about like, when, when you lose hope, that's when things get bad.

Eva: You always have to like, keep the hope on, you know, like, uh, if, if you're not hopeful, then it just means that, and you're not, if you're not hopeful of a better future, then you are, um, just. Cynical and you don't, you know, you don't believe in a better world, you know that, that kind of thing. And so, and anyway, and so she was like, hope is for dopes.

Eva: And I was like, in that moment, hope, I mean, I wasn't calling myself a dope, but I was like, oh, like it really was causing more harm and pain than it was good because it was prolonging me being both of us at Adam and I being in this situation that like was no longer working. And, and I, and I have since seen in my life other areas where like if I'm having a hard time with something and I'm stuck, [00:16:00] like my business, for example, this happened.

Eva: Like a couple months ago where I thought I was being optimistic about something, you know, and I was like, Hey, like whatever. Like, yeah, just like, and, and I, and then I saw actually that underneath that hope was such an energy of desperation.

Kyley: Mm 

Eva: it was, and it's been so helpful for me to see that actually now, like, now that I know that quality of hope.

Eva: 'cause I think you said it really well earlier, like there's different qualities of hope. And so now I'm like, oh, if that quality of hope comes in, it's actually now pointing me to where I feel desperation. And that's actually so loving because then I can work with a desperation, then I can bring in the nurturing and the care and, and what it is that I really need that's making me feel desperate rather than just being like, you know, there, there's almost even a sense of like, that manifested manifestation energy of like, no, no, no, just think positively and then it's gonna work out really well, and, and you'll be empowered and blah, blah, blah, blah, blah.

Kyley: Well, do [00:17:00] you know what I'm thinking about as you're sharing that story is, um, I think a lot about how the universe speaks to us, but we don't always, we don't always interpret it the quote unquote right way. Right. So sometimes we will like have, and so, so what, what's hit me and you, we've talked about that story a couple times before, but what hit me this time listening to it is that in some ways. Your hope wasn't lying. Things did get better for both of you. Right?

Kyley: Because once you, you know, you've shared before, like once you and Adam really looked honestly at the situation, right? Like being out of the relationship and the, and the pressure that he was placing on himself within it has been really good for his mental

Kyley: health.

Kyley: You have a beautiful friendship.

Kyley: Your life is beautiful and very vibrant right now. Like that hope wasn't wrong. It did get better.

Eva: Well.

Kyley: [00:18:00] script, I mean, I, this is in some simplification, right? But it's like, but the script of the how, and I say that because I think this is a big lesson for me personally around hope is like, like I have, you know, been having a lot of experiences. Where like I'm going through something hard and I, some part of me has this like strong, intuitive knowing of like, this is gonna work out all right. And then my brain is like, oh, and I know the script of how it works out.

Eva: Mm, mm-hmm.

Kyley: those are not the same thing. So this like hopeful knowing of like, you're gonna be all right, baby girl, you're gonna have everything you want.

Kyley: Turns into me being like, oh, great. Here's my grocery list. I'm gonna get exactly these things

Kyley: right? 

Eva: Okay. Wait, so wait. Can I put that into context to make sure I understand? So basically, 'cause I was, when I was being hopeful in that relationship, my hope was wasn't that like, oh, things are gonna work out. It was very specific. It's like, it's gonna work out and at like, because Adam and I, Adam's, I don't, you know, Adam and I are gonna, are gonna.

Eva: End up together and we're gonna figure this out. We're gonna like live happily ever after [00:19:00] or whatever. Like,

Eva: is that what you mean? Like, that's like my specific idea of what working out means.

Kyley: Yes. Right, right. Your, the script that popped into like this, like emotion, you know, life floats this emotion down in of hope. That's like everything's gonna work out, it's gonna be okay. And then your brain is like, yes. And I know exactly how it's gonna be okay. And it's gonna be that Adam and I live happily ever after. And then we, and then, and then we just feed that, that's the garden that we're like, kind of obsessively feeding and it's like, and, and the

Eva: And then when it doesn't happen, it, it kind of gets into this loop. I got into this loop where then I was like, oh yeah, it's actually really interesting that you point that out because that, that was the only like, answer that I saw. Like, I was like, that it, that, that is the answer. Like, 'cause that was the suffering.

Eva: The suffering was like, you know, my partner was in pain and our relationship was, you know, difficult.

Kyley: yeah.

Eva: So. That's interesting. [00:20:00] Damn it.

Kyley: it a little,

Eva: What? I'm just like laughing 

Kyley: about Hope, right? Because I think like, I mean, and this is what's complicated about it, because I think it's, it, I think it's like doing two things all the time, you know?

Kyley: Um, I really love the story that you share about you and Adam, because I think that is really relatable. I think every single person who's listening has had at least one moment where they were like, this is gonna work out.

Kyley: And that's, I'm, it's like, it's like the, I'm gonna be fine, which is usually like that there's truth in that, right? You're gonna be fine. But then again, it's like, and it has to work out this way. And I'm hopeful and I'm optimistic that it's gonna work out this way. And then we just stay in a bad fucking situation for way too long

Kyley: because of this like, quote unquote optimism. That's actually self denial.

Eva: Yes. Yes, exactly. That's actually self-denial or that's actually, [00:21:00] um, like a barrier to feeling something else that's underneath because you're like, okay, let me just be hopeful and positive so that I don't have to feel this other

Kyley: Yeah.

Eva: And so I think, yeah, and this is just an invitation to everybody listening.

Eva: It's like, the next time you feel it's like, I think my question that I, I still don't have figured out yet, actually. I don't know, maybe, maybe it's just a, an all it takes is just like a moment of, of reflection and awareness. But it's like, yeah, I think the, the work where I'm at right now is, is just, how do I catch it?

Eva: You know, how do I know when that hope is actually doing that, that thing where it's, it's actually not the. Helpful kind of hope where it's actually like the sort of detrimental one version. But anyway, I, I guess I was gonna say, the invitation for people listening is like, if you're in a situation where you're feeling [00:22:00] like something's really hard and challenging and it's not going, you know, life isn't going the way that you want it to.

Eva: And if you keep, um, sort of like forging ahead with hope as you're guiding light, just taking a moment to, to inquire, to see if there's something else underneath that hope. Like if there's, maybe, for me again, it was a realization of like, such a desperate energy,

Eva: it might be something else for, for other folks like sense of despair or fear or, um.

Kyley: I'm thinking about, I'm in this moment too. I'm thinking about how, okay, if we're using hope to deny something that's more painful underneath how, in that instance, and Hope is really about control.

Eva: Mm-hmm. Yes.

Eva: and,

Eva: pro and protection. Yeah. Which is 

Kyley: yeah. Which is Right, right. [00:23:00] And like we come back again and again on the show to how much surrender is always, at least for you, and I, surrender is always the most gentle and most powerful medicine.

Kyley: And so if our hope, if our experience with hope isn't one of surrender, but is in fact somehow like reinforcing control.

Eva: Ah, ooh, that's good. Kyley Caldwell. Damn.

Kyley: Thank you. Thank you, thank you.

Eva: No, you're right. If it's not, yes, it's, it's not if it's perpetuating more control than it is surrender. I think that can be a really good barometer.

Eva: I really, I really like that.

Kyley: I mean, and of course that's tricky because control is so insidious that we're in control mode all the fucking time without knowing it.

Eva: Yeah. Mm-hmm. I'm actually like writing this down 'cause that's, I think that's so beautiful.

Kyley: I mean, I think another way to tell too, if you're using hope as this kind of self denial, avoiding [00:24:00] feeling, the thing what's underneath is give yourself for a moment. Imagine, like, imagine that the thing you're hoping for doesn't work out. And if the bottom drops out of your stomach and you can't, you cannot fathom, you can't be even remotely present with the possibility of your hope not working

Kyley: out. Probably you're using it for some, like a covering mechanism,

Kyley: right? That can also be a good tell. If you're like, I can't even go there. I have to stay in hope. Then you're actually in control mode and kind of denying some deeper, maybe more painful emotions and, and then, and then in that case, your hope is to your point, kind of keeping you,

Kyley: keeping you in a really painful

Eva: Yes. Well, but then, so then, okay, so then this brings us to the next part of this conversation that you had brought up earlier. Going back to the metaphor of the lamp, right? Like, so there were probably moments, like I said, when I like finally had that like, you know, of course it's always in the fa in [00:25:00] some fucking bathroom where I'm crying, you know, like it always is ends up, I don't know why it's always the bathroom, but, um, it was a really scary moment when I like, basically was like, okay, I'm not gonna hope anymore.

Eva: I'm actually just gonna be with what is, which is I feel such a sense of despair because I'm really, really scared that this relationship is gonna work out. And that was like at that moment, really scary for me. So I guess what I'm trying to say is like. You asked the question of like, but sometimes hope is really like, it's all we got and we're clinging onto dear life and, and we don't wanna have to like you.

Eva: So you were talking about how maybe looking at what it is that hope is trying to help you, um, like get, and if you can imagine, if you can't imagine not getting that thing or having it work out the way that you want to, like, like that's how you know, when hope is sort of coming from like a clingy place, a control place, but at the same time, sometimes we can't go there yet,

Kyley: Yeah, that's what I was gonna speak to. [00:26:00] Yeah. 

Eva: to say.

Eva: I don't, does this make sense? Like.

Kyley: Yes. Well that's, so that's been my experience of hope is in this like, complex, um, way that we're talking about it, you know, in the friendship breakup in, in any dark night of the soul, like when you're at the bottom of the well looking up, like just drown if you don't have hope.

Kyley: I think 

Kyley: right when it feels like, you know, everything got ripped away. The pain of whatever's crashing in just feels like a tidal wave. Like you just gotta pick up every, any life raft you can, you know? And then just keep making like the next, the next right choice for yourself, the next right choice for yourself. And so, you know, for me, for example, in the beginning of the like breakdown with things with Liz, and, and, this is like, this is, this is a kind of [00:27:00] complicated thing that I've talked to you about offline a couple of times, but because there's some, there's like some interwoven things, but basically it's like I needed to basically triage the breakup,

Kyley: right? Because it was a relationship that meant, you know, because it wasn't, it was the friendship. It was all of the like old ancient wounds that had nothing to do with her. It was a deeply, deeply spiritual relationship. So there was also a lot of, like, you handed me this,

Kyley: God, what the fuck did you just try to break, set me up to break my heart, right?

Kyley: So there was like a lot of layers that, um, you know, um, had nothing to do with the person. Um, and, and it's like I couldn't, you know, I could not actually metabolize all of it at once.

Eva: Yep. Mm-hmm.

Kyley: Like, that just wasn't actually available or kindness or, you know, like [00:28:00] safe.

Kyley: And so, 

Eva: It was a lot at at once, and so it was actually smart not to process 

Kyley: yeah. And, and so. So there's been moments where, you know, in the breakup where I was like, okay, this is gonna be fine. Like, like, like the, like the guy in the like house that's on fire, you know, this is fine. Like this is fine, this

Kyley: is fine, everything's gonna work out fine.

Kyley: Brandon's gonna like just go have like a little meltdown for a couple weeks.

Kyley: I'll be right back because be totally fine.

Eva: Yep. Mm-hmm.

Kyley: Which was definitely a denial flavored hope. But I was also like, that was, that, that was, that was what was safe for me

Kyley: in that moment. And, and there were other things that I was processing. Right. So it was, and like similarly I think with you and your, like the, the, the dissolving of the romantic relationship with Adam.

Kyley: Like, it wasn't like you were, you were feeling lots of feelings. You were deeply present with yourself in all sorts of ways. And the elephant in the room was

Kyley: this hope as denial.

Kyley: Um,

Kyley: and, 

Eva: how that, how that can [00:29:00] happen? 

Kyley: Yeah.

Kyley: And, and so I. And so many, I mean, basically the journey of healing around the breakup and all of the things that has brought to the surface for me is just over and over and over and over and over again.

Kyley: The medicine of let go, let go. Some new thing comes up for me to be like, oh, isn't that cute that you're attached to this too? Let go. It's just, it's just the same thing over and over and over again. And, um, and so that's where I was talking about, about the lamp metaphor, right? Is like, so in the beginning when I was like, oh, this is definitely gonna be fine.

Kyley: We're definitely gonna be friends again, no big deal. Nothing to see here. And then as it's progressed, each kind of layer of letting go has been a no another moment of like needing to, know, check in that, the check in with what I was carrying in my like little hope bucket because, you know, in a situation like, like. A breakup where you still have all this love for this [00:30:00] person. It's easy to think this could work out,

Kyley: right? It's easy to think this could work out and, and it's, then it's also really easy to like, use that as like a pacifier and like hook into it and tell yourself like, and this will work out and therefore I don't have to feel all of the heartbreak.

Kyley: I'll just wait. I'll just wait here in this place of hope. 'cause I think that's when hope is denial. It's also like a waiting energy, right? At least that's how I've experienced it in this exp in this. It's like, I'll just wait here and then I'll get what I want, which is stagnation, which is self abandonment, which is right.

Kyley: It's

Kyley: like whatever the future holds for me, it doesn't matter. The answer still keeps being let the fuck go.

Kyley: Right? But, but that's hard. I mean, it's, it's, it's asked me over and over again to like. Have a new layer of accountability of like, where are you still holding [00:31:00] on to hope, possibility, idealization, all of these things in a way that is actually like an unkindness denial, all these things. But what's tricky is at the exact same time, I have not felt, at least for a long time in this process, that the medicine for me is to close, is to close my heart

Eva: Mm-hmm.

Kyley: Right?

Eva: Yes. Okay. So this is the third box thing. That's tricky. Okay. Wait, sorry. Before, before we you move on, I wanna summarize

Eva: the second piece that you said, which I think is, is like the other thing I've heard Byron Katie said when she was talking about hope. Oh no, this was something that I heard her say recently.

Eva: I was listening to some, some book of hers or something and she was like, yeah, hope is for dopes. But also if you are struggling and you are hoping, great, like, [00:32:00] and if that helps you because that's what you need at the time, great. You mean like, there's also this story, like, I think it's so important that I say like, just 'cause we're having this conversation on this, this doesn't become another thing that we need to go out there and like get right and do, you know, it's not like a strategy of like, like it's just, it's just a noticing.

Eva: And then also, yeah, we're all still gonna sometimes use hope as the strategy for coping because we need it. And that's fine. There's no right or wrong, you know what I

Kyley: When you. 

Eva: no right or wrong.

Kyley: When you sprain your ankle, you need a fucking crutch. You are gonna fuck up your ankle more if you don't have a crutch. You

Kyley: know, like that's at a certain point your ankle is fine or your ankle needs you to put some fucking weight on it so it can regain its strength and then you gotta stop having to crutch.

Kyley: But 

Eva: metaphor queen coming through will always put the fucking metaphors.

Kyley: we have a shadow work of metaphors. Your service.

Eva: but it's so true. I mean, and a really good metaphor. And, and so anyway, I just wanna make sure that we're not [00:33:00] like, you know, then creating some story of like, okay, well also we need to like, be vigilant about noticing like when hope is whatever, or that not using hope as a crutch and blah, blah, blah.

Eva: It's like, no, you do what you need to do to get by, and there's no right or wrong.

Kyley: Well and you know, especially hope is most, you know, it's most prevalent in our life when things are hard. And

Kyley: if you have said very beautifully to me many times this year is like. Grief is not something you do, like grief is a thing to survive. Right? And, um, and so like use all the fucking resources you have

Kyley: and also be in conversation with yourself about how you're using those resources.

Eva: Yes. Yeah, That's it.

Kyley: Yeah, yeah, yeah, 

Eva: Because in that way, there's almost something very loving about being like, Hey, I'm using hope as a crutch right now because this is what I got and that's okay, and

Kyley: yeah. I mean, it, there's been so many places where, you know, 'cause for me it's like I can feel the energetics of when I'm [00:34:00] hooked in or attached to something. And there have been so many times in places where I have been like. Oh, I found another thing I have to let go of,

Kyley: like, actually this week right now, I have a whole little bundle of things that revealed themselves to me on Sunday night.

Kyley: I did a big ritual with some of my clients, and then on the other side I was like, oh, I see a whole, like literally I can see they're like in a little basket of things for me, let go. And it is Wednesday. I did that on Sunday. No, I just keep looking at it. I'm like, oh yeah, I see what's in that

Kyley: basket. I, I see what, I see my, I see my attachments clear as they, and also, yeah, they're just still sitting in the basket attached as fuck.

Kyley: I'll get to it, you know? I'll get to it. In the meantime, I spent a lot of time on TikTok this week,

Eva: Yes, exactly. 

Kyley: you 

Eva: letting go of that perfectionism, healing ourselves to death,

Kyley: Yeah.

Kyley: like I see you and, and I, and I, I'm, I, I see you attachment and I don't yet want to let go of you. So look, you're on the todo. I literally, this is how I write. I literally wrote a to-do list, [00:35:00] y'all of like. That I wanna send, I'm just gonna, I have the notebook right in front of me. Okay.

Kyley: It's just like to share with everybody the inside of my brain.

Kyley: This is my to-do list, tear down altars, that's the baskets write to alumni clients. These are my, this is the way that I do to-do lists, right?

Eva: Nope, same. Same. Um, so anyway, okay, so that's like kind of part two, and then now that's part three thing is like, okay. But I think what you're asking are asking, or, or, or 

Kyley: give a little context. Sorry I interrupted you.

Eva: Okay. Let me just, I just wanna summarize where I think we're going is like, okay, so sometimes hope is a, isn't helpful and it's a coverup for something else, but also sometimes when is hope actually what it is, which is this like beautiful beacon of light where there's a [00:36:00] trust actually, and that comes from a really like heart-centered place of like, yeah, things can be better.

Eva: Or I actually believe that this thing could happen and yeah. Um, do you know what I'm saying? Like, and I believe in like a better possibility or a better outcome, or like, I just have a sense that like, things can work out. So how do we, how do we balance and navigate that without attachment, I think is like what you're touching into.

Kyley: Yeah. And, and there's kind of two layers of it. One is like, hope for like a, create like an, you know, like a creative endeavor, like my business, right? Like I didn't have hope. But maybe hope's not the right word, but if I didn't have a sense of like possibility, I never would've taken these

Kyley: risks. Right? I never would have done all the series of vulnerable things that it takes to have a business. Pursue your dream,

Kyley: put your creative work in the world, 

Eva: mean, they, they do say that in order to start a business like, [00:37:00] or to do anything quote unquote great or whatever, like you have to have a, a little sense of delusion. Like

Kyley: I was gonna say you had to be I thought you were gonna say to be a little insane, you gotta to be

Kyley: a little bit insane. Yeah.

Kyley: absolutely. 

Eva: delusional or whatever. And, and I guess I'm like, and, and, and those, at those times, like, I think it, it's been helpful, you know?

Kyley: and right. It's like if I did not have an inflated, it's just interesting that I call, wanted to just use the word inflated, noting that, because this is some of the tension, but if I did not have a like big sense of what was possible, then I never would've taken these risks, right? If I didn't have hope, if I was only acting on like. The cold material reality of who I was instead of who I could be

Kyley: or what I could do. Like I'd still be a sales

Kyley: director and I don't think I'd be as happy. Right. Um, then the journey to actually birthing the business has been a ton of moments of like cold hard accountability.

Kyley: Right. So there's [00:38:00] a, there's like a nuance, but I think one of the things that's been really tricky, so a note, we're recording this in July.

Kyley: Y'all are listening to this in like September or October. So, you know, wherever I am in my reality and the timeline of healing has shifted, um, by the time you're listening to it. Um, but I have, it's been this really, so the, the, the, the process of healing from the breakup has been this really strange dance with hope because at times it's been a crutch. I've had to consistently look square in the face and say, oh, like I'm actually like clinging to a certain kind of outcome. Right? Um, often the outcome revolving around some kind of like return conversation, closure reunion, whatever. And so that has been, that's an unkindness and that, and every time the, like, the kind of healing and release and letting go comes from looking at being like, [00:39:00] I'm, that's not real.

Kyley: Like, that's not what you have. That's not what's in front of you. Or your attachment to that very idea is causing a lot of suffering, right? A whole bunch of different versions of like, you gotta let go of this. And what is insane and like actually has at times made me feel insane is that every moment in this process that I have had, like the moments of biggest relief and breakthrough, right?

Kyley: The moments of the biggest relief and breakthrough almost immediately. Have come like within a day or two of some weird psychic dream spirit, some

Kyley: kind of like intense Mystical experience.

Kyley: that's like you fuckers aren't over yet

Eva: Yeah, a mystical experience. That's, that's actually pointing to, that's basically kind of telling you in some way, actually the, the, the outcome that you want is gonna happen.

Kyley: but that's the part that, [00:40:00] that's where that, that, that's the part where I'm making a meaning out of it. So, so for example, I regularly, I had, you know, the number of times I don't dream for the record, I like go to bed and I wake up like I do not have dreams. And the only time I have dreams they are often very vivid and I wake up and like, as I'm waking up spirits, like, did you get those notes

Kyley: that we sent you last night? Like one time I literally woke up, actually, I'll tell this story. So I had some. Huge relief release around the breakup and, and actually was help facilitated by the singing class that, that we took. And it was really, really powerful on multiple levels that involved like some practical actions of like, Hey, you know what, maybe don't follow this person on social media anymore because then you can't, you can't

Kyley: be a little snoopy snooper

Kyley: when you're feeling like hurting yourself. But it also is like very beautiful, lots of ritual. Um, and it ended, it was like a day and a half release that had to do with, again, [00:41:00] not just this person, but all these other things that this person has gifted me the opportunity to heal. And it ended me cracking up hysterically crying in my backyard about the blessing that is having your heart broken.

Kyley: Okay. So it was like this gorgeous day and a half healing experience. That night I had a like dream that was so real. It was like I'm, it was like this conversation, right? And it was with this person and it was like all about how like. Okay, well we have to have this fucking conversation,

Kyley: right? You and I have to talk.

Kyley: We're not done yet. And, and then I woke up and as I was waking up, spirit, literally before I fully woke up, gave me notes and was like, do you see all those places where your energy is weak and you're still self-sacrificing in this relationship? Do you see, do you see what you're still doing? Like, so in the dream, they were pointing out how I was like still being a codependent weirdo.

Eva: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

Kyley: And, and then I woke up and that, that kind of experience has happened like [00:42:00] clockwork, the

Kyley: number of times, like frequency.

Kyley: And so what's, so what's been interesting is, and my whole life, like one of the pillars of my life is like trusting my intuition,

Kyley: right? 

Eva: Yes. Mm-hmm. Yeah. And that's, and that's why this is all so extra tricky. It's like not just, it's trusting your intuition, but also I would say, would you say that like, that has really paid off for you? As in like, uh, basically what I will say is that anytime you've had some sort of like psychic intuitive intuit Yeah.

Eva: Hit that you've, about my life that you've shared with me. You've never been wrong. You've 

Kyley: Yeah, my intuition is not my intuition, but he Okay. So correct. I mean, yes, that is true. And we don't always interpret it. We interpret it sometimes the way we want to interpret it. So I'll tell you another story about my intuition. [00:43:00] Years ago I was pregnant with Desi and that was in the lead up to Trump's first run for presidency. And obviously I was. You know, like all of us. Very concerned. And, uh, I, a dear friend of mine bought a prenatal massage for me. So I was having this really beautiful massage at this point. I was a spiritual per, I was spiritual, but not in any way the way that I am now. Right. Like Desi's birth was like kind of the turning point for that. And I remember laying on like, getting this massage ask, kind of like sharing my fears, like, I'm gonna have this baby and there's this like, terrible person running for president. And what I heard clear as day was, it's going to be okay. And I came out of my massage and I said to my friend, oh, Hillary Clinton's gonna win

Eva: Oh, so, so, so interesting. Yeah. You interpreted it as it's, it's gonna be okay, as you're gonna get the outcome that you want. 

Kyley: Right. My script of, okay, look at that. Thumbs up my [00:44:00] script of Okay. Is the way it's gonna be. Okay. 

Kyley: Right, 

Eva: Oh, that's so funny. That's a great analogy. Yeah. Mm-hmm.

Kyley: And so.

Eva: Or example. Yeah.

Kyley: So as I keep having these experiences of like, okay, the assignment is to let go. I got it. 'cause I would, I mean, you know, especially at this point, like it's been many months, like I'm like, I'm just interested in feeling good at this point, right?

Kyley: Like, and, and I, you know, continue to have these beautiful experiences of, of healing and release and then I get another dream, like, like fucking clockwork, right? Um, and, um, or, or some other thing like that, right? And so to the point of hope, and I've even asked Spirit like, it's you all just setting me up to get, to get my bro heartbroken. Like, you already did that the first time, right? Here's your spiritual best e jk, your heart's broken.

Kyley: Like, I'm a little dubious.

Kyley: And, um, and, [00:45:00] and so I have like tuned in and been like, what, like, is this hope dangerous?

Kyley: The answer that I have gotten is this very consistent. Like it's never a bad thing to hope.

Eva: Mm-hmm.

Kyley: or, or like, or some, some, some version of like, hope is for you, right? And part of the assignment, to me, it feels very clearly is like, point of, it's gonna be all right.

Kyley: Oh, Clinton's gonna become the president, is like, it's gonna, there, there like clearly there is something here for me in right this, this ex this, this experience of breakdown is not done with me yet. 'cause it keeps coming back. But the painful version of hope is like, oh, and the script is my friend is gonna come back and say that she's sorry and wants to be my bestie again.

Kyley: And every, we're gonna skip off into the sunset.

Kyley: That would be fun. Fun. I

Kyley: mean, that would be real, that wouldn't that be a great end to this [00:46:00] like, you know, TV drama

Kyley: of like, you know, will they or won't they season four?

Eva: Yeah. No, I hear you though. It's pain, the painful that, It's just that what life means when it gives us these hits of like, hope is for us, or that it's actually gonna be okay. It's that we have no idea what that really means or what that's gonna look like. 

Kyley: Yes. Like I'm not in charge of the outcome. Clearly this situation isn't done with me

Kyley: yet. But, and I, this is the complicated, this feels like the complicated dance, like the situation isn't done with me yet. The, the, the process, right. Certainly not acute the way it once was, and also it's not done yet. And there is some part of me who very openly and earnestly believes that there is a possibility for a genuine reunion and [00:47:00] healing and reconnection and any way, shape, or form, if I'm attached to that, it's gonna fuck me up and hurt me a lot.

Eva: Yes. So that is the, the wait, the dance, the exercise, the, the thing that I think takes skill to navigate like the, okay, well first I just wanna say, um, the word that has been very helpful for me. That best encapsulates what it is that I experience when I'm like, um, believing in the possibility of something amazing, like amazing, you know, a magical and a miraculous happening, but not being attached is just optimism.

Eva: So, so like that's because I, 'cause I got this is like, that's where I got tripped up. I was like, okay, so if I'm not trying to hope for things, [00:48:00] which for me sometimes has this sense of like attachment, like

Kyley: Mm-hmm.

Eva: I was like, if it's not hope, then what is it that I. Feeling when it's not attachment, or also what is it that I want to go for?

Eva: Okay, so if I don't wanna feel a desperate energy, what is it? And it's just like optimism. Like that's, that's just been like the energy of like, oh, it could happen like this. Really, almost like very light effervescent, like I'm optimistic, but also optimism to me has way less of a energy of cleanness, of like, it needing it to be a certain way or it needing to be exactly that way.

Eva: Which then comes back to the stance that we're talking about is how do we believe in the miraculous? Because that's also the way that I wanna live. Like, let's, let's be very, very clear about this, which is like, this is what this, this is the reason this topic is so important to me is because yes, similar to you, like the foundations of my being is like trusting my body and my intuition.

Eva: But another [00:49:00] foundation of my being is believing in the impossible. Do you know what I mean? Like, like, like dancing with this magical, mysterious. Essence of life where our imagination is so fucking small and, and life is way more creative than we are to be able to believe and trust and have faith in all those things.

Eva: In like, life just blowing my mind. And it happens regularly, right? So like, there's also that. And so, so therefore I want to go, I wanna, it's important to me to continue to keep this spark alive in my life because it's true. It also is just true to me. Like life is just full of fucking miracles. Like everything is a fucking miracle, right?

Eva: You and I conversing over zoom, like is a miracle. Um, and I don't wanna lose that spark, but

Kyley: Yes. 

Eva: that, but that spark, because like you were saying also, it's that spark that creates change that lets us take risks that let's us do things in our lives. That if we didn't have the spark, we would just stay stagnant [00:50:00] and in 

Kyley: would say, 

Eva: Where we're unhappy. And, and that's, I think when people mean when they say like, hope is really important, because they're like, if you don't have hope, then you just give up and then, and then you know, then you become a cog in the wheel or whatever. You know, the 

Kyley: just right. you.

Kyley: settle. You're like, well, the bottom of the well is the best I'll ever do.

Kyley: Right. And you just say, you just resign yourself to. Unhappiness

Kyley: and resignation is different than looking something square in the face and then like making your peace with it.

Eva: Yes. Okay, so this is where it all gets so nuanced, right? Like this is like, this is why I 

Kyley: this

Kyley: is why someone once called our show, like PhD level spiritual podcasts.

Eva: Yes, but

Kyley: We're following. I hope you all are following. Are we following?

Eva: I, I are we, I'm not sure if we're following yet. No, but, but I'm like, it's all this, all about this nuance, which is like, please, your listeners do not listen to this and mistake. Us for saying that [00:51:00] like, oh, no, like hope is for dope and therefore you should be resigned to life. Because if you know, Kyley and I, if you know anything about this, our show, you know, that's actually the opposite of what we believe.

Eva: We believe in, like the big mysterious magic of the cosmos in which anything can happen at any fucking moment. And that's also why life is so fun, you know?

Kyley: Well, and you know what's been interesting as I've continued the, because I think you're a thousand percent right this spark, and I think this is what, when I, when I was like, am I just getting set up? Is this reoccurring knowing that something, some, you know, happy outcome or whatever is possible here, is that. Just setting me up for fucking harp further heartbreak. And which is the answer is like, maybe, right?

Kyley: Like in all honesty, maybe. And 

Eva: reason why people don't dare to be optimistic either. Like, how many times have you heard me say that too, where it's like, no, I, it's too, it's too vulnerable for me to believe in this really [00:52:00] positive thing. 'cause then I'll get hurt. 

Kyley: And, and that's one of the things that I've had to look at is like, I, again, to be really accountable is like, this hope might hurt me. Like I might get hurt from this hope, right? Like it might be six months from now. And I realize that like, you know, whatever I have that, that's the, that turns out that was just a lantern that I was carrying.

Kyley: And I have to put that lantern down too, and it hurts like

Kyley: hell. And I have decided that it's worth it

Kyley: because it feels true, because it feels like my truth in this moment.

Kyley: and and I was causing a lot of suffering for myself when I was trying to deny. Right. These intuitive, mystical things were happening and I was trying to be like, no, dummy don't get hurt.

Kyley: They don't mean anything. But that also didn't feel,

Kyley: that also felt like a different kind of

Eva: Uh, it's a, it's a denial. It, yeah, it's a denial. It's a cynicism. It's like, no, your body is saying, is tell, is telling you something and to not believe it. Out of fear, [00:53:00] you know, out of 

Kyley: just as is just a different flavor of the same pain as like clinging to it has to be this exact script

Kyley: outta fear. 

Eva: yes, yes.

Kyley: And so that has been, that has kind of been my tell is when what feels like love in my body

Eva: Mm-hmm.

Kyley: and love in my body feels like there is some potential or some outcome here that I don't yet understand. That could be really beautiful. And my truth is that, you know. I love my friend and I hate what's happened. Right? It's, it, it's more complex than that. But also it's that

Kyley: simple. And um, also it's interesting 'cause I'm watching some vulnerability of like, um, anyway, some like little, little gremlin that's like, you shouldn't even care about any of this anymore. So just know,

Kyley: just naming that. Because you listeners know I love to be transparent for you.

Eva: [00:54:00] Yes. And also name entertainment 

Kyley: Don't think how to say it now. Um, attachment hurts. Attachment fucking hurts. And I don't, I do not know what this cycle looks like or how long it lasts or what its gifts are, or how it quote unquote concludes. And there is a part of my heart that really wants, is really deeply inviting me to like, honor the spirit of like love and possibility. So I'm letting that be true. And the fucking tell if your hope is secretly not helping. It's like attachment hurts

Kyley: when I'm attached to my mystical shit being false. That hurts when I'm attached to an outcome that I've scripted that fucking hurts. But there's this, there is this, and in some ways, maybe this is the, maybe this is the blessing of this moment, is there is this like soft middle place [00:55:00] that I occasionally am living in that's like, I'm okay. Like I right now I am okay. A future where I never speak to this person again. I am okay. A reality where I realized all of the spiritual shit was just in my head and did nothing other than give me some fun tools to like, you know, learn how to love myself better. And it's all just a silly game. And none of that's real.

Kyley: I'm also okay. 'cause that's also been part of it, right? Have I had part of, because this was such a spiritual relationship, I have had to grapple with like, are you all fucking even real?

Kyley: Like, do you actually love me? You just fucking right.

Eva: Totally. I mean, and again, and for anyone who's ever had that experience, like I'm sure you can go back and listen to one of our many episodes about like, am I crazy?

Kyley: right. Am I crazy? And, um,

Eva: Which is such a, a, A, a, a, A, I think, uh, a critical part of being on the spiritual path or a, you know, a co, a [00:56:00] common part of being on a spiritual path.

Eva: Yeah.

Kyley: And like, yeah. And, and I am finding more, I'm having deeper and more consistent access to this soft place where. Everything is working out for me. I'm not in charge. Everything is working out for me. I don't know how, but I trust that something good is coming.

Kyley: I know something good is here, you know,

Eva: Something that, something good is and something good will be.

Kyley: Yeah.

Eva: So that's it. That this is the culmination of, I think like this whole podcast, which is like that soft, what you call the soft middle place, which I think is like such a lovely description. And I feel like a sense of just like, it's like the middle way.

Eva: It's this, like this more, it's like this very whole and balanced place I feel like is how I experience it is. Um, it is [00:57:00] where we do the dance of holding different things at the same time, which is that like I am whole, just as I am and I'm loved and deserving of love and or you know, and like appreciate things And also simultaneously I am completely optimistic that things. Can be better and that like, there's this thing that I want and that would be really nice and it would be amazing and I don't need it. Like it doesn't have to happen. It doesn't have to happen that way. And that's, I think that's actually, I think to me like the whole game, like not just about this hope thing, but about like life in general.

Eva: Like this is, I think when people talk about, um, I mean I think this is that really [00:58:00] fine balance that I think also they talk about in Buddhism, which is that you're not supposed to deny your desires 'cause that's just more repression and resistance and whatever. It's like have a completely open heart to everything that you want without attachment.

Eva: And that's tricky. It's like, okay, yes it's possible. And that's, but it's tricky. And I think that's what you're talking about and you're like, the soften a place that sometimes we land in, it's like, oh yeah, actually. I'm fine right now, everything's fine. And also I have this really big desire and I think that it, and I totally believe that it can happen, and also I'm totally okay if it doesn't happen, like I'm totally not attached.

Kyley: a thousand percent. And the way that I've like, the way this soft middle place has revealed itself to me is that I like touch it and then I bang into the side of suffering. And I find it like, right, so I'll, I'll touch it, I'll feel this like peaceful, centered, grounded thing, and then I'll bang into the suffering of like, you're [00:59:00] fucking delusional.

Kyley: Like, who are

Kyley: you to believe that in a good outcome, this is only gonna bite you in the

Kyley: ass. And then and I, and that like looping shows up and then I have to like. Feel through the gremlins that are living under that. Like what is the attachment there? What are the wounds there? How do I love there? And then those attachments fall off and then there's more.

Kyley: And then now the soft middle space is bigger

Eva: Uh,

Kyley: I can spend more time

Eva: yes. And it becomes more familiar and you're like, oh, I'm back home again. I know 

Kyley: And then, yeah, and then I'm banging on the other side. There's like, I absolutely need this to happen, and why hasn't it happened? And what the fuck? You all betrayed me. And then I feel into

Eva: I mean, I basically feel like you're just describing the, the whole spiritual journey.

Eva: Like this is all of life. It's like, it's because Yeah, it's like, you know, they, the saying is like, all suffering is caused by either resistance or attachment.

Kyley: Mm-hmm. 

Eva: And so we're constantly doing this dance of either resisting something or attachment to something, and then we get to this middle place where we're like, Hey, I'm not resisting anything and I'm not attached to anything, but it doesn't mean that I don't want [01:00:00] something way better.

Eva: You know, it doesn't mean that I, doesn't mean that I don't dream of bigger dreams and believe in like absolute, I impossible, you know, because. Of course we do. Like we wouldn't, we exist because impossible things happen every fucking day, quote unquote impossible things.

Kyley: yeah, 

Eva: Um, but also it's all right here right now, so I don't need it to be whole and happy and safe and content.

Kyley: And sometimes that's like soft middle place in just being there is its own weird kind of trigger to, because to your point, it's like we land this place, we're like, oh, I don't need all those things to be happy. I'm okay. And then some part of this is like, what the fuck? You definitely need all those things like GI up go get

Kyley: them.

Kyley: Right? And so sometimes just landing in that spot is its own kind of like. Will its own kind of

Kyley: trigger into suffering. 

Eva: have like, so much to say about that because, because that soft middle place is like the place where I want to live at all times. Like [01:01:00] that's where I'm always ironically striving to get to. Right? Like, like,

Eva: but what's so fascinating is when I get there, like you said, it triggers my.

Eva: My limits where I see my limits. And one of my biggest triggers is stories is like, wait, but if I don't have need, I won't get what I want. And that's been really fascinating to see that belief that I think that the only reason I ever get what I want is because of the energy of need and like attachment.

Eva: It's like, no, no, my attachment. It's where I can see how I have a distorted relationship and understanding of attachment. 'cause I'm thinking, oh no, attachment is necessary. Need is necessary in order to be happy and to get what I want and what I'm playing with and have experience at some points in my life.

Eva: But I actually feel like this is like a huge piece of like what it is that I am meant to learn in all of life is actually what if all of my desires and needs get [01:02:00] completely met without me needing to. Like a tepi attached to them. Like in all other words, completely trusting life. Completely trusting life and, and almost it, it's almost this sort of like sad limited story that I think we all have of like, if I don't have this hungry, like need anymore, then I won't get my needs met and I won't have the life that I want.

Kyley: Oh my God. This, this is really funny because this has been exactly a huge thing that has been revealing itself to me lately, and we haven't explicitly talked about

Kyley: this, so, 

Eva: But oftentimes that happens. You and I are like, yeah, yeah, 

Kyley: yeah.

Kyley: yeah, because I totally agree. And actually one of the things, one, as in this ongoing unhealthy from attachment, so at this stage, y'all, I am well aware that this, this friend who I had this breakdown with is like an, is a very rich avatar, right?

Kyley: In [01:03:00] addition to it being a person that I love and would love a reunion with, they're also like the perfect avatar for me to just like work out all this shit that has

Kyley: nothing to do with them. Right. And um, and even once my like spirit crew was like, isn't it fun to have like a new flavor because you did this with money for so long and now you get to keep doing it, but you've got a new flavor.

Kyley: Isn't that fun? It's

Kyley: like, fuck all of 

Eva: Yeah. Yeah. Seriously. Go fuck off.

Kyley: It was getting a little boring.

Kyley: Boring. Anyway, so, um, uh, that was a very specifically, like I was at one like moment of, you know, release and surrender. I was sitting with the me who was really attached and I was like, baby girl, like, you gotta let go. And that was exactly what she was afraid. She was like, if I let go of this, I will not get it.

Kyley: And I really, really want it. The only way I get it is if I hold on for dear life and I have to just be like, and it's just this over and over again. It's like, actually that's the thing that's keeping it away [01:04:00] and also

Kyley: keeping us really unhappy. 

Eva: yes, Clap, clap, clap. I don't know if zoom can pick up my claps 'cause I have whatever original sound on, but just a thousand snaps because the irony is actually it's that, oh my God. And this is where like manifestation like is very

Kyley: I mean, we are secretly, covertly. I think this is the, this is the best manifestation episode we've ever actually held.

Eva: Yes, because for listeners like Kyley and I have. Mixed feelings about, you know, manifestation, especially how it's presented in like pop culture, spirituality. And so we think it'd be really problematic, but at the same time, there are elements of it where I'm like, oh, oh yeah, but it's also like real and, and, and, but just not, anyway, whatever we need to have, like we've been wanting to have an episode on manifestation for a long time, but I think it's been hard because we're like, there's just like so much that 

Kyley: yeah,

Kyley: It'll probably be like a, am I going crazy? Like four part series?

Eva: yes, yes, okay.

Eva: Yes. But it is that [01:05:00] desperate. Like, no, no, no, I have to, I need to, I need to, I need to need this and I need to want this, or else I'm not gonna have it. But the irony is it's actually that very like controlling needy attachment that's preventing it from from, from it coming in or 

Kyley: in the way. 

Eva: Yeah. It gets in the way, like it's,

Eva: Basically, it's the S stripe that actually prevents us from getting what we want. And uh, I just had this experience so clearly pop up in my own experience of recently, which is like, oh, it's the irony.

Eva: It's ironic. I don't even know how to explain it, but all of the striving prevents. Things from coming in Easely. And I actually had a call with a client also recently where she was in such figuring out mode energy. She was like, I have to figure out, figure out, figure out, figure out. Like her whole MO was like, figure out energy.

Eva: And I was like, and I could just so see so clearly how, and may, maybe you can explain it better than I can. 'cause I like [01:06:00] can't find the words why this is, but it's like her, it's it, her needing to figure it out was the very thing that was getting in the way of her figuring anything out

Kyley: Yeah.

Kyley: Well, I mean, I have so much I could say to that. Yes, Um, I think striving is just a version of attachment, right? So, 'cause like avoidance is also a version of

Kyley: attack, right? it's like, like denial is also right. So striving is just one very common. Um, uh, but like the, like figure it out, fix it. Energy that is like tight clothes you like. If you're trying, if you're looking, one of the things I love, I do all the time and I always am telling my clients, is like, ask the question.

Kyley: Ask the question as a prayer and then

Eva: Let it 

Kyley: let go. wait for the answer to come back. Like

Kyley: you don't have to go digging.

Kyley: Um, because the figure it out energy that is the mind and wisdom will come from the body or it will come from spirit, right? It

Kyley: will just like rise up or like drop [01:07:00] down.

Kyley: The brain can then like translate it, but the brain's not gonna actually, like, wisdom doesn't live in the brain, right? Um, but I think I, and I, I do, I think that, I mean once again we're coming back to the answer is surrender. The problem is attachment,

Eva: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

Kyley: over and over and over again. And I think what's interesting is like belief in possibility is. I think we are agreeing that the energy of hope that's about belief in possibility is incredible and powerful and beautiful, and to be celebrated. What's tricky is that our belief in what's possible and that our need for it are often like really deeply interwoven. And so maybe you should keep that lantern metaphor. Maybe part of it is like just that continued process of like, where am I attached [01:08:00] to this possibility? You know, where am I attached to? Where am I, where, where am I attached to the hope and, and what does hope look or feel like, if we wanna use that word, when it's, when it's just like a totally sovereign, neutral of non-attachment. Um. I think there's something interesting too in the spirit of non-attachment. I think one of the things that can be really, really helpful, that's very helpful for me is understanding what I'm actually attached to.

Kyley: So I've mentioned a couple times that this person that I, you know, our, our relationship, uh, dissolved, blew up. Um, and um, that like part of a lot of the like attachments that has come up has had nothing to do with them and part of the process of unhooking. 'cause I could just say like, oh, just don't be a church to this person

Kyley: dummy, and like doesn't work, 

Eva: Yeah. And well, we [01:09:00] can't white knuckle surrender, right? Like our friend Leah Garza says. Mm-hmm.

Kyley: And so one of the things that's been really helpful in the like, increase in kind of carving out this like soft middle place is, um, I.

Kyley: Discovering what the different attachments are, instead of it just being like, oh. Because I think sometimes it's like, oh, I just need to be, we hear like, I need to be not attached. And then we just think it's a desired state. We must be,

Kyley: and I find a lot of help in almost seeing it as like these like individual collections of attach, right?

Kyley: Like, it's like a series of attachments that you unhook from like one by one or maybe a batch at a time. But you know, for example, I'll share recently it's really beautiful, like release about, and like really profound acceptance of like, I'm just not in charge of this outcome. And I shared about actually on the podcast, like this really beautiful experience of like, oh, like I'm just good.

Kyley: Like I'm good about this whole situation, this person, I love them. It like [01:10:00] my, my sadness is not their fault. Like, we're good, we're good. And that felt like I was on a high for a while. 'cause it had been a long time since I had felt that good about the whole situation. And then all of a sudden I started to like have some really intense emotions again.

Kyley: And I was like, are you all fucking kidding

Kyley: me? 

Eva: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

Kyley: I was like, this will not let me go. I was so, like, I was mad to be mad

Kyley: again. Right. And I was just like, what is happening? And um, and when I dropped in, it was attachment. Like that's what the suffering was. But it was not attachment to the person.

Kyley: It, was not attachment to 

Eva: never, it never is. Yes. 

Kyley: I mean, sometimes there, there was, there was like, for example, I went through this whole attachment of like, you know, I need this person to come back to prove that I'm not a bad, that I'm not a bad person.

Kyley: Whatever.

Kyley: Like there was

Eva: attached in that moment to not being a bad person?

Kyley: Yes, that's true. That's very [01:11:00] true. I think, I think what I wanted to speak to is that the attachment that I was feeling was actually like even less related to the, it was a weird experience of like, I. It was actually even less related to the relationship because what I was, actually, I'll say this, what I was, I wasn't even mad at this person.

Kyley: I was actually just really mad at God.

Kyley: And, and the attachment was, you all keep telling me that I can create whatever the fuck I

Kyley: want and I don't want this.

Kyley: So what's happening? And the attachment wasn't even, it had nothing to do even more deeply. It

Kyley: had nothing to do with the person. It was like, no, I actually am okay with the situation.

Kyley: And it was just this like burning rage that was like, you have made some promises spirit

Kyley: like, like I owe yous would like to be cashed

Kyley: in at this fucking

Kyley: point. And here's what blew my mind. And this is what's in the little bundle of attachments that I mentioned I [01:12:00] saw Sunday that I haven't yet dissolved. It's my attachment to being creator of my own reality.

Kyley: That's in the fucking way

Kyley: of being creator of my own reality

Eva: Oh my God. You're making my head spin, but also, so yes, like,

Kyley: do you wanna be God, give zero fucks about being God and then it's yours. No problems.

Eva: yes. Okay, okay. Okay. Hold on. I have to read exactly what I wrote at the top of my, like, of my to-do list,

Eva: which is so in line with everything. I was like, what we've just talked about. It's the striving that stops me from experiencing what I want. If and when I stop caring, I will get exactly what I want or, or more importantly, it won't matter if I get it.

Eva: It's like I might get it, but I won't. Need it. It'll just be a nice cherry on top. But the moment I like, don't care, it's [01:13:00] just another way of saying what I'm liberated when I'm free of this need to fulfill some emptiness that some perceived false emptiness, you know, that I think that I have, when I don't need it anymore, it'll come streaming in.

Eva: But at that point it's like it'll, it'll just be like nice to have, but then I'll be able to really enjoy it because I won't be afraid of losing it. And that feels really key too, because it's like sometimes that's what real an attachment is like. It's like it's, and I've had this conversation recently about like love, it's like when you truly love somebody, but you know how they talk about like, you need, it's, you wanna be whole, you need to feel whole in yourself and love yourself completely to like love another person.

Eva: I don't think that's necessarily always true, but I do think that there's something there about like, oh, if I like love myself unconditionally. Then someone else comes into my life and I don't need them, that's when I can really love them [01:14:00] because I am no longer afraid of losing them because I don't need them to fulfill anything for me.

Eva: And then I get to really enjoy the relationship. 'cause there's no like,

Kyley: because the relationship isn't, bandaging isn't like a coverup for any unresolved wounds. It's just

Eva: Yes. So not only is it just like I really like, so then I'll finally, so once I stopped caring, essentially it was kind of what you're saying. Like once you stop having this attachment to being creator, whatever, it's that we're caring about. Like you had this attachment of like, I was supposed to be creator, but it is true.

Eva: Well, the minute that you let go of that attachment to needing to be creator, then once again you were a creator.

Kyley: Yeah. And, and,

Eva: But, but, but then you're like, get to really enjoy it because you're not attached to it. It's not coming from a proving energy 

Kyley: you're in surrender. 

Eva: Mm-hmm.

Kyley: Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah.

Eva: Okay. Well, I had no idea that this podcast was gonna be very much in line with like, what it is that I've been thinking about this week. But, but [01:15:00] it's there it is. I mean, literally that's what I wrote two days ago on top of my notes list.

Kyley: I love that we both start our to-do list with like, I love, that makes me so happy.

Eva: Um, mine's more of like a, like a dump list where I just dump all of my thoughts, and I mean, to tell you, it's so fucking messy.

Kyley: Oh yeah. I just, um, I just relish, I also relish when you know somebody really, really, really well and then you find out a new detail about them. Like, it's just such a delight.

Eva: Yes.

Kyley: Um,

Eva: all right, Kyley Caldwell. So now what

Kyley: yeah. I mean, I.

Eva: I actually, I think I know, like for me anyway.

Kyley: Because I was like, for me, I have to go detach from being God, and I don't know.

Kyley: I really, I really, I'm really, I'm really caught up in that idea.

Eva: I think it's like, I think it's so interesting that this whole conversation started off about hope and I don't know, we've come [01:16:00] here, wherever this is. Um, but I feel like a next step for me is, um,

Eva: you know, the idea of like, once I stop caring, then I'll get exactly what I want is to look at all my stories around why I care about any certain thing that I want. Okay. So let's just say it's like, for my business, it's like

Eva: I have had the sneaking suspicion for years now that whatever, well this isn't new. This is, this is, you know, there's a thing that like whatever we resist, we hold in our consciousness. That's true. Right? So I just have, I have a sneaking suspicion that the striving that I do in my business is the very thing that's actually making my business not work

Eva: as well as I want it to work.

Eva: Do you know? Because I, because I still have this story of like, it's a problem. I need to fix this, I need to do better, I need to do more. Like, you know what I'm saying? Like that [01:17:00] sort of like, and so there's something here for me about what if I completely let go of needing my business to be, to work out the way that I think it's supposed to work out.

Eva: What if I completely let go? But the reason I can't do that is because all the underlying stories of like what that would mean, like it's not safe. Mostly it's like it's not safe. Let's just go there. And then I think it's for me to tend to those wounded parts where I don't feel safe and where I'm trying to get safety from my job and my finances.

Kyley: Mm-hmm. Yes, it's this map dropped into my head the other morning as I was waking up, which was interesting. I don't usually get like. Visual. You know, here's a little model for instruction upon waking up. But that's what showed up. And it was a triangle. And the base of the triangle said safety. And the middle tier of the triangle said, love.

Kyley: And the top of the triangle said, power. And the like sense that I had when I got this [01:18:00] little teaching mo model was, um, like we, like we can't do anything without safety. And, and when we like, and we basically felt like this, like, like this, like tier of like our needs, right? Like we need safety in order to really experience and let in love.

Kyley: And we need love to like really experience and let in power and we will misuse by p There are people we will misuse power in a coercive and manipulative way to kind of like extract love and safety, but like actual honest. Liberated. Safety leads to love, leads to power.

Kyley: And, and this is the power of like empowerment and like being creator of your own reality and all

Kyley: of these things. And so, um, that model just popped back in my head as you were talking about your business because the, I was also wondering as you were [01:19:00] saying that, like what are the tears about, what's the meaning making happening about safety in your business, but are there also meaning making stories about like worthiness of receiving love and like,

Kyley: and the safe and the safety of being really powerful?

Kyley: Um,

Eva: Yes. Oh, interesting. Yeah. Yeah. Looking at all those things.

Kyley: which you could still say is all safety,

Kyley: right? Like you could still say that whole triangle is safety, but um. I don't know. I've been playing with that. I, there's been like a, because in particular as I've been walking through this healing journey, I actually think that's been the stage of it, right? In the very beginning it was like, it was so much got activated about like, these are the mo, these are all the places where you have just been caring profound on safety your whole fucking life.

Kyley: And like, everything's on fire. Let's go. Um, and then there was this whole chapter of like really [01:20:00] grappling with the ways in which I believe myself to be undeserving of love in these sneaky, insidious ways.

Eva: Mm-hmm.

Kyley: And I do think this current chapter of healing through this breakdown is about like, yeah, like really letting in the, like the embodied experience of being creator, which includes not giving a fuck

Kyley: about being creator.

Kyley: Um. And, and to tie this back to hope, there have been so many moments to the point of like, am I crazy? Like, I have had this like unshakeable knowing that like walking through fires is the, like, is the shortcut and this unshakeable knowing of like, you know, there is some part of me who's like, no, I fucking know that I am creator even though I have no data, right?

Kyley: There's moments where it's like, I have no data to back this up, but I also fucking know it. And, [01:21:00] and maybe that's not hope. Maybe that's faith. That's another question that I was like asking in our private chat. Like, you know, maybe hope leads us to faith. I'm not totally sure of like what the relationship between them is, but. But I think that where I'm sitting now is this feeling of like, this is where I've been walking to this whole time. Like all of this fire, all of this suffering that I didn't even, when I didn't understand it, and spirit was like, this will be worth it. Just trust us. And I was like,

Eva: Yeah.

Kyley: off the screen.

Kyley: Y'all didn't see that. Um, I like increasingly am having this experience, which is still ripe with frustration. Um, again, not specifically about this person, but also like in other areas where I'm like, everything is slow. Can we just like

Kyley: speed it up please? Um, and I needed, there's so many moments where I like needed to [01:22:00] believe. I needed to, I needed to believe that this was possible. This place where I am, this soft middle place, I

Kyley: didn't fucking know what it was, but I needed to believe that it existed. I never would've got here without

Kyley: that. And yeah, we can't, um, we have to get ourselves there.

Kyley: I think that's the thing, the, the danger of hope is also that it will just happen. Right. Which is counterintuitive to this whole sort of thing. The danger of hope is also this idea that it feeds this delusion that we don't, that we, that it will just come to us. That we don't have to change, we don't have to face any gremlins.

Kyley: We don't have

Kyley: to like, take bold risks emotionally or physically. Like it will just all of a sudden money, the world will change. 

Kyley: And it's like we are the world that changes.

Eva: Yes. Uh, okay. I mean, uh, [01:23:00] that could be like a whole nother episode and I feel like my brain is starting to do that WW and w thing that happens when I'm just like,

Kyley: Yeah.

Eva: when way deep into the, a conversation. But I will say. I think what you pointing to is really important. It goes back to that Pilar lesco quote that I think I brought on the podcast a week ago or two.

Eva: It's like, we are the creator of our realities and we don't control it.

Kyley: Yeah.

Eva: So basically, I hear what you're saying though, like there's a way in which hope can actually be like a self abandonment, where we're just like, well, it's just, I'm just gonna keep hoping and it'll just happen for me and I, and I don't have to do anything.

Eva: Like basically if you're using hope to avoid having to face anything, that's another tell. Um, yeah, that's just like another tell, and I hear what you're saying, like, no, there are things that we do, like acts of courage and acts of love that get us there,

Kyley: Yeah. And let hope be the thing that makes you feel, gives you the courage to go in, right?

Kyley: Like, like [01:24:00] how many times have I gone to face a fucking monster that I was terrified of? And it was hope that was like, okay, I'm right here by your side. Let's go.

Kyley: Let's do this. Because I had hope that it would be that this scary thing that I was about to face would be worth it. And, And, I, I guess I do. I will say, I think at this point. That hope has become faith because I do now, I know when a scary monster shows up. I like know that going in will like turn to, will turn it into love. But um, yeah, don't let your hope coddle you and keep you stuck and trapped in denial or avoidance or secret desperation, but use it for acts of love and bravery.

Eva: Yeah. Okay. Wait, one more thing, and this might be, let's try and keep this short so we don't open up another can of worms. But like you, you said something like, you know, I know that I'm the creator of my reality and like you're just like, and I just know [01:25:00] it. Do you remember saying that just like a second ago?

Kyley: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. 

Eva: So. To that. I say, okay, so then just know it, like what's, what's the problem there? You know? Because I feel like you're saying that as if there's like some confusion or like

Kyley: I also don't. Right. It's right. 'cause it's, it's, it's not, that's not fully soft, that's not fully in the soft middle place that has like scratchiness

Kyley: around it. Right. That's like, I do know that,

Kyley: that's one of the ways that I have known, like the breakdown is for

Kyley: me. Right. But then also I, but I, that, I also don't know it because I have these experiences of powerlessness that's like,

Kyley: alright, I'm ready for change and the change hasn't materialized or whatever,

Eva: Got it. Got it. Well, I think we just keep practicing because I think what we're speaking to, if I may be so bold, is like to actually reside in that soft middle place around desires like. On a moment by moment basis is essentially enlightenment. So like, you know, [01:26:00] so it's, if we're not there yet, I think we can give ourselves a break.

Eva: It's the no, it's the complete knowing that we are whole, exactly as we are, and therefore, and, and also holding, giving all the space that we want to our desires, um, from an optimistic place while also knowing that we don't need them. So then when they do come in, we can fully enjoy them. Like, that's a tall order.

Kyley: Wow.

Eva: And I also think it's completely possible.

Kyley: I mean, obviously we're like fanatics about it,

Kyley: right? 

Eva: Yeah. Oh, okay.

Kyley: And at the end of the day, it will come down to us deciding that we don't even give a fuck about it in

Kyley: order to experience it, 

Eva: Yeah. Or even like, we're not doing it like,

Eva: yeah. Eventually life doesn't like there. Okay. You know?

Kyley: Yes.

Eva: Yes. Okay. Let's do joy. Let's do 

Kyley: Mm-hmm. All right, beloved, what's something that's bringing you joy right now?

Eva: So my answer is a little bit more, [01:27:00] um, nebulous. It's not something specifically concrete, but. I think what's bringing me joy is the, this sort of spiritual, um, exploration that we've been doing on this podcast that I feel like I've been doing in my life in a very potent and dynamic way for the past couple of months.

Eva: So, um, let's see. I've been in Brazil for five months now and I'm leaving soon to start like a summer of travel. And when I got here I suspected rightfully that my time here was gonna be wild. And yeah, just sort of bring me to a lot of deep learning and experiencing and I think that's exactly what's happened.

Eva: So, you know, topics that like, that we explore on the podcast and that we talked about today, like [01:28:00] I'm having the opportunity to like, really, I. Contemplate them and experiment with them and live them in my everyday life. And it's been, I guess I use the word dynamic and expansive and kind of confusing sometimes and just like intense and just a big time of learning and embodiment.

Eva: And so I think I'm just reflecting on that as my time in Brazil here closes before I come back next year. And I'm like, wow. I just feel really thankful for that. And you know, I'm looking out at the jungle and the trees and the sun's coming out and I'm just like, this is just truly a very supportive but mystical place that I live in.

Eva: Like the whole, all the land just feels on fire with potent magic and the people that I'm surrounded by, but it's like not. But also it's so odd. It's very supportive and kind and [01:29:00] gentle and loving and. Um, so I, I just feel really grateful for this whole experience in this land, and I cannot wait for you to come experience it yourself one day, Kyley.

Eva: Yeah, you're gonna love it, hun. Okay. What's bringing you joy?

Kyley: um, I have loved watching this journey for you and how like activating and mystical your, your time in Brazil has been. Um, we've talked on the, I think on the show certainly offline, about how we each go through phases where like, where you're just not interested in outside teaching, right? Like your, your medicine and your life is your own, is is your primary teacher. Um, and I. I've been in one of those phases when it comes to ma like magic and mystic mysticism for a long time. Like I have never actually taken any like, formal [01:30:00] anything when it comes to like, mysticism and, and magic and the energy work that I do. Um, and have felt very strongly that I didn't want that for

Kyley: a very long time.

Kyley: Right. That like, nope, I, like, there's a, there's a thing that is cooking and revealing and, and um, and

Kyley: is entirely my own. 

Eva: you don't wanna have it tainted by other people's. Stuff. Input energy. 

Kyley: like things, it just, it just never felt, it just never felt right. Aside from like a couple of books I read when I first started, um, like specifically about, you know, I've never, every once in a while I've picked stuff up. I've dabbled in stuff about like witchcraft. 'cause I'm was curious sometimes I'm curious to know how like other people might do spell work and, um,

Kyley: that's. That's the thing I play with. That's not like a cornerstone of my practice, but, um, but for the most part, uh, that has not called to me. And all of a sudden it's [01:31:00] been really curiously calling to me to learn from other people specifically about the craft of like magic and shamanism and mysticism, right? So I have plenty of people that I learned from all the time just by being in conversation and being peers.

Kyley: Right? I'm not like, uh, and not in an, on an island, but, um, I recently in, but it's specifically been like Celtic shamanism that's been calling me, right? No. My ancestors are Irish and

Kyley: I actually had this really beautiful experience with the Goddess Bridge in meditation about like this ancestral pain. I, this is turning into a laundry, but essentially I had this really cool experience where I felt. This ancestral pain in my heart that was, well, we abandoned, we abandoned you land of Ireland and therefore we are not allowed to continue to have access to your blessings and your

Kyley: mystical, [01:32:00] magical ways. And bridged was like, you ready to let that go? Like, that's not, that's not even yours. Right?

Kyley: Girly was born in the United States, um, and I had no idea that I was carrying that.

Kyley: Then immediately started sobbing. It was this like really cool thing. And ever since then this, I've always known I like, wanted to go to Ireland, um, again and like specifically go on kind of like a, for like more spiritual reasons. Um, but ever since that, that moment I have been like starting to just be super curious to like to learn from people who are specifically more rooted in like Celtic Shamanism.

Kyley: And I've gotten some books and I even mentioned to Nick that, you know, I wanna try to find a retreat to go to and. It feels really fun to be curiously pursuing this path, and it also feels like something inside of me baked fully enough that now we can have input,

Eva: Oh my God, I [01:33:00] love this so much. Wait, can I, okay, so I just wanna speak to the deliciousness of both experiences of like, yes. Like intentionally being in your own energy and not taking in input and stimulation from other sources so that things can be fully baked. Like, that's such a delicious phase to be in, and I know and love that very well.

Eva: And I also love the other phase of just being in that because I'm a, uh, I don't know. I'm a one for human design, like one meaning like I love to learn and I love anyway, just the phase of like c consciously learning, intentionally learning. Specific. It's fun. It's so fun. It is so fun. And it's very inspiring, 

Kyley: Mm-hmm. 

Eva: And, and then it's, and then you go through these, well we were always going through moments of growth, but anyway, it's just a different pathway to growth anyway, so I'm excited for you because of how fun and I think, um, [01:34:00] expansive like these things can be. And it's also really cool that you're kind of rediscovering this, this part of yourself too.

Eva: So

Kyley: it feels really fun. I feel really, it feels really juicy and fun and, and I'm really curious to like, let it unfold and watch where it, watch where it takes me. 

Kyley: So any listeners have any recommendations of like, books or teachers in this area that they love? I, um, you know, send them my way. I'm, I'm, I'm hungry.

Eva: yeah, well not only that, 'cause like, I think it's so nice, especially when this that happens like sort of organically and you're just kinda listening to your body. 'cause your body's like, oh, it's time. Then you're like, okay, I just trust that.

Kyley: Yes. And it's interesting too in this personal pivot from like healing wounds to welcoming blessings, which that really feels like this pivot that I'm in, right? Like healing wounds to welcoming blessings and the idea of like how all the ways in which, which we tend to ancestral baggage and wounds. And [01:35:00] now this feels like this moment where Bridget and my ancestors are like, are you ready?

Kyley: Because like, you'll, you like, yes, you come from a long line of like, you know, backbreaking starving laborers and you come from a long line of like, powerful fucking witches.

Kyley: So let's go, let's go. And so that feels, that feels really just delicious in ways that I'm excited to let unfold.

Eva: Woo-hoo. Awesome, huh? Okay. Podcast listeners, we love you so much. Thanks for coming on this ride with us. And if you like the show like subscribe, write, ust review, we would love some fresh reviews that would be. That'd be delightful.

Kyley: be 

Kyley: fun. 

Eva: Okay, bye.