In this deep and far-ranging conversations with Hanna Williams we discussed how to build spiritual practices rooted in joy.
In this deep and far-ranging conversations with Hanna Williams we discussed how to build spiritual practices rooted in joy.
Hanna - hannawilliams.com ||| @organic.abundance ||| @the.spiritual.process
Safe and secure- https://www.evaliao.com/safeandsecure
RESET- https://www.evaliao.com/reset
Alchemy- https://portal.ravenandmerope.com/alchemy
Eva's instagram: @iamevaliao
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Kyley's Instagram: @kyleycaldwell
Join Kyley’s Facebook group: Monsters & Magic
Grab your ticket for Magic Circle
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Eva: [00:00:00] Hey everyone, it's Eva here with another beautiful, exciting, weird, crazy out there down to earth episode of Hello Universe. Um, Hannah Williams is our guest today. She is. Amazing and hilarious and awesome, and we get into like a really rich conversation about connection to God in and so much more, but really like the esoteric in ways that I think are also really down to earth, which is, you know, like.
My favorite kind of conversation. Um, before we get to all of that, Kylie and I, between the two of [00:01:00] us, we've got some really amazing offers that we wanna share with you. Um, for the first time ever in my business, I have two offerings going on at the same time. Um, both coming up in this April. So the first one is safe and secure.
My program for people whose lives have been affected by a loved one. Addiction. So whether this is currently happening, maybe your partner or your a child or a friend is struggling with addiction and you are in the throes of that, or you are someone who, like me, um, grew up with addiction in your family.
Um, this program is for you. It is called safe and secure because so often people, um, with our experience, that is something that we need to learn to cultivate for ourself because oftentimes when we are, um, you know, when someone is in, in the really awful, uh, process of suffering because they're an addiction, we don't feel safe and secure.
Our, our needs don't get met. Um, we can [00:02:00] feel like we're always in this other people's business. We develop these. Bad habits, I think of like worrying about people too much, being caretakers, struggling with boundaries and codependency and. Really like not being in our own business. And what I mean by that is like being in our own bodies and our own knowledge and our own wisdom and our own, um, emotions.
Um, and so much of this program is about coming back home to ourselves so that we can move through, take like, take these really painful experiences that we've had in our life and turn them into, I think, the catalyst for some of the most healing and growing that we can do. So I, if you've been listening to this podcast, you probably already know that this is like really important work to me because I think, um, addiction affects so many of us, and I think sometimes we may downplay the effect, um, that this experience.
Has on us. And actually for some of us, it's [00:03:00] very clear for some of us, like the alcoholism or the addiction is so loud, um, either presently or in the past that we know it's the reason why, uh, we have trust issues or, um, We feel fear as our baseline feeling most of the time. So if this is you and you wanna do this work in community with others, because that is a very important and integral part of this healing process, um, you can look for safe and secure.
We're starting, originally we were gonna start on the 13th and I, due to health reasons and just crazy stuff going on with my Airstream trailer that has now since been pushed back a week. So you have an extra week to sign up. Um, and the second. Thing that I am offering in April, which I'm also equally excited about, is reset, which is my first ever one day meditation retreat.
Um, this is an offering in part of my, it's a part of my practicum for completing my two year training course with Tara Brock and, and, and Jack Cornfield and a bunch of other amazing teachers. But, [00:04:00] oh man. Reset. Love me a good one day meditation retreat. Um, really it's an opportunity for us to like be free of distraction.
You're carving out this time in your life to say, Hey, I'm putting down my phone. I am giving my kids and my family and my partner and my friends like a heads up that this day is for me and I need to reconnect with myself, which I think so many of us n long for and need and can benefit from. This is a wonderful opportunity for you to deepen your meditation practice in a group with people.
And we actually end up talking about this a lot in this episode, which is interesting. Interesting. Cuz I think Hannah is also, um, meditation is a big part of her practice, but like, being in the energy of other people really helps amplify our, my, our focus and our mindfulness and our, um, connection with God and.[00:05:00]
I mean, there's just so much, I could say, so many good things I can say about what it's like to have a one day like reset. Um, I cr often crave this kind of experience because like I know what it's like to have like a really, you know, to have my like daily meditation practice, but sometimes I really wanna go in deep and there's just this thing that happens for me when I.
Dedicate focused long periods of time just as sitting with myself that I come into like really focused and clear awareness and presence and it feels so fucking good. And, um, I've been grateful for other people who've carved out that space for me. So, If you are someone who wants to come back into your own energy, who wants to feel that presence and that self connection, who wants to be free of distractions, who really just wants to like clear out any energy that is not yours, so that you can walk into spring feeling more aware and in tune with yourself, I highly recommend that you sign up for a reset.
It's [00:06:00] at a very affordable price, and you can find out all that information on my website. Dot com, both of those things@evil.com, and I'm sharing more about it on Instagram as always. So look for me there, and Kylie, she, her and Liz are in the process right now promoting Alchemy, which is, I mean, people, if you, if money is your medicine, meaning like, because the thing that brings you the most suffering, if you let it is the thing that's your medicine, right?
So if money is your medicine or you want it to be your medicine, I think as Kylie has said, like you're crucible rather than having it be your main source of suffering. it's Kylie and Liz. Honestly, I feel like I completely 100% trust them with all of my money stuff. I think they're brilliant and they come at this work with, Beautiful, like anticapitalistic lens and also spiritual lens and also the healing lens of really [00:07:00] understanding like the money stuff.
It's never really about the money, it's about the stuff underneath. Right. And money is such a huge sticky thing for so many of us. Um, yeah, because of like how it shows up with our family and, um, how we were raised and. These ideas of like goodness that are, that come with money and, you know, whatever. We, and actually Liz will be back on the podcast soon actually, to have a really rich conversation about this.
So, um, especially if you're a business owner, but even if you're not money probably comes up in your life a lot, alchemy. The doors close on that, uh, the end of this month, I think end of April, April 28th. I think so. Um, if you want some like practical down to earth advice mixed in with like some really rich magic that just gets amplified through Kylie and Liz because of their honestly like witchy powers, then I would highly recommend you check out Che.
You can find that at Kylie or Maven and [00:08:00] mero.com or just Kylie's Instagram. Um, and as for our guest today, so Hannah Williams, she calls herself a spiritual field guide, which I love, but I don't think that that fully encapsulates, um, the work that she does. You know, a lot of the work that she does is about.
Spirituality applicable for your, the modern life, which again, you guys know on hell universe, that's so much what, what we're about. But gosh, she brings such, there's also, I dunno, we just had this really beautiful, esoteric conversation about what God is and how to feel more connected to God. And it's hard for, to me, for to explain the conversation.
I think you have to listen to really just absorb the magic of it. But if you are somebody who's maybe feeling a little bit disconnected, we, um, I would suggest this episode for you. Or if, and [00:09:00] also, you know, we also talk about the topic of what it's like when we are addicted to our toxic traits because they feel more comfortable, which I know is like maybe a common conversation.
Mm. But I think it's always worth talking about, and I think we talk about it here in a way that just feels. Oh, really vulnerable and really real. So I hope you enjoy the episode. If you like Hello Universe, please share it with your friends, like, subscribe, do all the things that always really helps us. We love you guys.
Hi Hannah. Welcome to Hello Universe. We're so excited to have you here.
Hannah: Hi, I'm, I'm, I have no idea what's gonna happen and I'm looking forward to this.
Eva: I think that's a good sign. That's a good sign. Um, well, why don't we start off with our intro question, which is what's something Li Life is teaching you at the moment?
Hannah: So right now life is teaching me in various ways, um, how [00:10:00] there's an incredible healing process and learning how to relax. That's what life is teaching me. And the other day I have a friend, um, who texted me and she was like, um, hey, what does your spiritual tradition think of fasting? And I think it was just on her mind because like Ramadan is either still happening or it's like ending soon or you know, and also just fasting has historically been kind of like a spiritual austerity that people have done throughout the millennia.
And I told her that the teachers of my lineage like don't really emphasize it. Um, maybe 24 hours, yada, yada, yada. And then the other morning I woke up and I was still kind of thinking about this fasting thing and I was reading a commentary on a scripture cuz I'm a nerd. And at the very end he said that in India, um, fasting isn't always just food, it's also you fast [00:11:00] what you're consuming in your mind.
Kyley: Hmm.
Hannah: And then I really started thinking about that and I realized that, you know, I, it's, this is related to the relaxation thing because I feel that, um, it's not so much that I necessarily need to fast food. I need to fast what I'm consuming in my mind. I need to like not be constantly filling my brain with something for whatever means or end that we think is possible.
You know, these sorts of things. And so I feel that life is teaching me how it's almost like aggressive, like how much I need to relax. And I do often think that we forget to relax the mind. We just think I need to just like lie down or something, which is totally valuable too. But we also have to relax the mind.
And obviously there's spiritual means to do that. But, um, that's the big thing that I'm chewing on [00:12:00] recently. Yeah.
Eva: Yeah, I'm just laughing cuz you're speaking my language. I'm like, yeah, I like my, my 100% goal in life is to relax oftentimes. Relax my mind.
Hannah: Yeah. Right.
Kyley: I find I can't relax my body. Like when I struggle to relax my body, it's because I need to relax my mind.
Hannah: Oh, that's interesting.
Eva: Mm-hmm.
Kyley: I'll sit down. I have two small kids, so I always, and I work for myself, so I always have lots of excuses to be busy, right? And sometimes I'll be very intentional about like, no, no, no, we're just gonna sit down and we're gonna read our book Ready set.
And then as soon, and then, uh, which is like one of my favorite things in the world to do, is like sit and read a book, right? And then I instantly watch myself. Feeling, my body gets squirmed, right? Like my body will get squirmy. I will resist the relaxing, but it's because my mind is still in the mode of like, well, what about this thing?
What about this thing? What about this thing?
Hannah: Oh, [00:13:00] can I share something that's like coming up for me when I'm hearing you say that? Um, so I actually was, I, this has been a, to sometimes I have like a theme in my life and every single person I interact with, we end up talking about the same thing. And this has been the topic. And I, on Saturday I went on a hike with, um, a couple of friends and we were talking about like, how do you fucking relax?
You know? And um, I was saying that I actually think that we need to consciously transition from one thing to another. And so I don't know what's going on with you with the book thing, but maybe you're just like going, going, going, going. And then you sit down with the book and you're like, I'm still going.
Kyley: I think you do know, I think you just described it perfectly.
Hannah: And then perhaps it could be interesting if you just laid down on the ground for like two. And that's your like transition space
Kyley: Mm.
Hannah: and you let your mind do, it's almost like you're unplugging a fan and then it's the, it still spins and so then you just need to lie on the [00:14:00] ground and then you're like, okay, now I'm ready to read the book.
Kyley: Wow. That is such a, literally just this morning I was contemplating about how transitions are such a mind fog for me. It's one of the biggest ways my A D H D shows up. One is I can never remember, like I, I lose things all the time. And two is, transitions are really hard for me. So that is
Hannah: Floor time. Floor time. That's the a d thing in the ADHD community. You gotta have floor time. Have you heard this
Kyley: no, that part of TikTok has
Hannah: floor time?
Eva: that actually, I don't have d h d, but I love floor time. I can't, Kylie, you've taught, I've talked about this with you, like I just love, like there's, because I think it's grounding.
Hannah: It's grounding. It's different from lying in the bed.
Eva: Oh, totally. It's totally, I just will like li like my favorite thing to do is lie on the ground and listen to music and just like, look up at the ceiling.
It's so great. But, but I will say this piece about transition, this is actually something I actively teach my clients because, um, I don't think people, [00:15:00] I think people underestimate, How, or overestimate how difficult it might be, and also underestimate, uh, the energy that they're bringing from one situation to another.
And so really, like when I say like transition, it's like, I mean, yes, if you can lie down on the ground, great, but if you're like coming home from work and you know that your two small kids are gonna like jump on you the minute you get home, maybe you do this like in your car or you're actively just saying to your mind like, Hey, I'm, I'm letting go of like where I'm coming from, which is the past and I'm not even gonna really think about the future.
I'm just gonna like be here now. I think it can actually be like a very, um, I don't wanna say mental thing, but a very conscious thing that you do. And then you'll find, I find that like my energy shifts in those moments.
Kyley: My friend and I call this, oh, sorry. My friend and I call this car therapy when you,
Eva: Yes.
Kyley: of texts I have for my husband that are, are you coming in? Question mark.
Hannah: You're like, no, I'm contemplating my re my existence for just like [00:16:00] five minutes.
Kyley: Sorry to cut you off,
Hannah: Oh, no. I, I actually love the topic of transitions, um, in general. And sometimes when I think about transitions, the first image that comes to mind is, do either of you have a cat?
Eva: I used to, I love cats.
Hannah: Was it an outdoor cat or an indoor
Eva: Indoor cat.
Hannah: Okay, well maybe you've like, seen this with like friends or that you have who have an outdoor cat.
It's like they, this has always been my experience. My aunt has a beautiful cat, and the cat will just like yell at me to let it outside, and then I open the door and, and she'll just walk through the door. But she stands in the, in the threshold. For like a while, and I'm like, please go outside. Please go outside.
And then she'll just stand in the doorway. And then eventually she'll walk out into the outside world. And sometimes I feel like she, it's like cats are like, it's like it's a mirror of something that we can learn from, where it's like [00:17:00] the cat will just like, take a moment to recognize, whoa, I'm like, there's a whole other experience I'm about to have. I wanna like check what's going on and then I'm gonna go. As opposed to dogs, you just open the door and they're like, you know. But sometimes when I think of transitions, I try that floor time thing. It's, it's almost like the cat standing in the threshold where it's like, wait a minute, what's going on here?
But
Eva: love that
Hannah: transitions also like are, um, there's like an e there's like an ecological metaphor with it too because, um, so have you ever heard of the term ecotone? Are, are either of you biology people at all? So an eco town is a bio region that is an overlap of two different regions. So maybe you have like, um, okay.
A good example of this is you have land and then you have a river. And then the riparian zone, which is right on the edge of the river in the land is the eco town because it's like an overlap of the [00:18:00] two zones. And ecotone are the most biologically diverse areas anywhere. And so there's a lot of activity in this transition space.
And I feel that that's one of the reasons why we struggle with transitions as people is because it can actually be overwhelming. The possibility that's like living in these spaces in between things. And so we just try to barrel through it. Right? But actually it's like, it's like there's a lot happening in that space and it's good to be present with what's happening in that space.
Eva: Oh my God, I fucking love this. And I, it's so relevant cuz transitions are kind of a theme on the podcast recently cuz I'm going through a transition and we recently had this conversation about. You know, the liminal space between no longer and not yet. And, and it, and in that space that it, everything's open.
And so it does feel like, oh my God, there's so much ha like, it that uh, it's like anything is possible. You [00:19:00] don't know what's happening, you know? So it feels really intense, Kendall, you're saying, but it's also because it's the beautiful space where so much growth can happen. So I love that. Like there's an example in, in ecology and biology that represents that.
That's so beautiful.
Hannah: Yeah. No, I like that
Eva: e e Ecozones, is that what? E
Hannah: ecotone with
Eva: eco tone. Okay, cool.
Hannah: Mm-hmm.
Kyley: I'm going right back to my, uh, middle school science fair project where I did tide pools. Cause I lived on the ocean and uh, although hilariously this is not relevant to the podcast, but I feel like sharing. So about, um, the, my project was I thought I'm gonna go and take my little, like, disposable camera and take pictures of the typos every day for, or like every week for a month.
And that's gonna be my project. Only, uh, none of my parents remember to like, help me get to the beach. And I, so, cause I was in sixth grade, so it was the night before like every science [00:20:00] fair project ever completed. Uh, and I just like had a bunch of hermit crabs in a fishbowl. But I ever said, I do remember that that is where the most life exists. Uh, I think there is also, like, I appreciate also thinking about like there's a kind of nakedness in that transition space, right? Of um, Uh, and I'm, what's, what's showing up for me now is thinking about how like, big picture liminal space in some ways feels like my, well not comfort zone cause they're not that comfortable, but feels like a thing I know.
Well, and also day-to-day transitions are, as I just mentioned, like really fucking hard for me. And I don't, I don't, they don't wanna make too much meaning out of that, but I'm finding that really amusing that, um, this like paradox I have created for myself about dancing with transition.
Hannah: Can you give me an example of a big [00:21:00] picture liminal space?
Kyley: yeah. So a lot of the work that I do is like holding space for like, just the cycle of like personal death and rebirth, right? So like, okay, are you like, like I I, are you in the process or am I in the process of creating a new project or I have a new vision or a new vision for. I want my business to become.
And, and I'm pretty good at like holding, allowing that to just take its time and trust. Like this might take two months, it might take two days. It might take two years. Like we're just on a journey. Um, and, and that, it's surrender even it's back to surrender because when it's the big picture, I have enough surrender of like, oh, okay, it's happening with me.
I don't need to micromanage. But in the day-to-day, I'm constantly a control freak about what I need to be doing next. So thanks. Okay. Figure that one out. That was quick.
Hannah: Well, I think
Eva: cheap bit of insight.
Hannah: long term, the long term isn't presenting like, [00:22:00] uh, imminent threats to your body's memory.
Kyley: Yeah.
Hannah: So it's even like in the day-to-day we struggle with it because our body is constantly resisting things that it's not familiar with, if this is making sense. Right.
Kyley: Oh, brilliant. Can you, can you say more of that? That's brilliant.
Hannah: Oh, well, so I experience like, so when it comes to like resistance, like, it's like, um, we're always resisting things that are good for us, right? I mean, this is like the number one thing that I deal with when I speak with people about spirituality. It's like, I really wanna do my practice, but for some reason I'm like so resistant to it.
And sometimes it's just because our, our bodies, you know, the body keeps the score, but it's like our bodies like, we have these habits that were developed over the course of our lifetime to keep us safe and we like learned things, right? And so I, for instance, I'll tell a story about myself. I feel most safe when I'm in a slightly [00:23:00] hyper vigilance state, which is why I drink so much coffee and I'm trying to stop doing that.
But I feel safest when I'm kind of like actually a little bit on edge actually, which is part of the reason why I'm trying to learn how to relax. But I feel safe in that hypervigilant state because I'll be able to catch that other shoe that drops. Cuz I'm, I got my eyes open, right?
Eva: Mm-hmm. It's just also, it's very familiar. Yeah.
Hannah: I, it's familiar. Right. And so our day-to-day life is full of these like imminent threats to, um, in, in very small but big ways because we're just conditioned to perceive reality in a certain way. And then I think we have to, um, lovingly train ourselves to, to basically be like, actually it's okay to do floor time.
Kyley: Mm-hmm.
Hannah: Right?
Eva: Mm-hmm.
Hannah: And then, and then also sometimes we get so fed up with this thing that we've always been doing that, that it's almost like [00:24:00] our, our anger with ourselves, this is my experience, will lead us to be like, ah, fuck, I just really gotta do something. And then you start doing floor time. That's another thing that I talk about a lot is how anger is actually, um, really beneficial sometimes.
But, um, honey, I feel like I'm rambling. Emma, are you following
Eva: So can you, can you, yeah. So I love this. Okay, so can. Talk a little bit more about how to train. I think you, I don't know if you would use the word trained, but you know, so we're familiar with our, like some of us anyway can be really familiar with some toxic habit. And and so we wanna stay there cuz it's familiar, but we also are like, no, no, no.
We, we wanna do something good for us and, but I'm resisting it. So how would you suggest people train themselves to do the healthy thing? Like what is it that you think people need?
Hannah: Yeah. So, okay. Full disclosure, I'm not a therapist, but I've had a lot of experiences because also when it comes, this is actually a really big topic cuz it's, it's worth saying that like this resistance, [00:25:00] um, is, uh, the often the result of the lack of care that we received after a traumatic event. Okay?
So let's just put it that way. Um, but something that helps me is I actually think the. Uh, okay. So I mostly talk about this stuff in relationship to spirituality, but I think that we experience resistance about all kinds of stuff. But sometimes, um, people will tell me like, oh, I don't want, I keep falling off of my, my meditation practice or something.
And I'll be like, okay, cool. Tell me about what you're doing. And then they'll describe the most like, inconvenience situation I can conceive of or something where it's like, oh yeah, my meditation ca um, space is like in, this is like on the other side of my house. Or it's like, it's just like, you know, it's like something that's like, so not, how do I put this?
It's like, you don't wanna do it.
Kyley: Like for a long time. That my meditation time was five 30 in the morning. Just as,[00:26:00]
Hannah: for real. It's, and it's, it's like, it's like we, we almost, until we realize that we need to make things pleasurable and good, and fun and beautiful, we set ourselves up for failure. I set up all of my situations in a way that make me want to do it. It's like pleasurable. Do you see what I mean? It's like my meditation.
I love being in my meditation space because I've made it a space that I want to be in. And so when it comes to like overriding resistance, it's like we also have to signal to ourselves that the thing that we're doing is actually good. We have to like override our conditioning. And so even when it comes to business, and I'm sure both of you are very familiar with like entrepreneur stuff, like I, um, will, when I have to do something really tedious or something I really don't wanna do, I will try to make my experience of doing it as comfortable and pleasurable as possible.
And so I have like a blanket, I get [00:27:00] my blanket out and I wrap myself in the blanket. And then I look at all of my tax related. Or you know, or sometimes I'll get in bed, like if it's something I really don't wanna do, I get in bed and I get cozy and then I, cuz I'm trying to reen, I'm trying to create like positive reinforcement, you know what I mean?
And so the, the whole thing that I was trying to say is that I think that we should allow, especially when it comes to spiritual things in the beginning, allow it to be as pleasurable and easy as you can. Because we also have a cultural narrative that it's supposed to be like sacrifice. It's supposed to be like you're supposed to be uncomfortable, you know?
And that's true in the big picture. But I think people who are dealing with a lifetime of resistance towards stillness need to make it as comfortable and easy as possible in the beginning. Cuz otherwise you're just never gonna do it.
Eva: yeah, yeah. I, I, there's this Tara Brock phrase and she talks about how. Um, you know, really it's about meeting our [00:28:00] edge and then softening. So it's like anytime we have to do something kind of hard or uncomfortable, we don't go into it with like white knuckle bro energy. It's like, no. Yeah, you're gonna challenge yourself.
It's gonna feel uncomfortable because like eating this piece of vegetable is actually really good for you and you might resist it, but don't force yourself into it. Like, ah, it's like, okay, well I'm at my edge, and then how can I soften into it? Because I honestly believe that like, that's the only way that it's gonna be sustainable.
Otherwise, even if we get ourselves to eat the damn vegetable or do the meditation, that one time it's gonna be like, shit. We're gonna be like, oh, I hate this. And then you have that negative association that you were
Hannah: Yes, the negative association. And then also it's like, oh, another way that I talk about like meditation, stillness practice too, is like we have, we build inertia. In our being almost like, it's almost like our subtle body will build all of this forward momentum because most people, until they kind of start to ask more spiritual questions, are always in this outward focus.
Like, we're always like looking [00:29:00] forward. It's almost like it, it's like if our subtle body had a movement, it's almost like we're about to fall forward constantly because it's like we're just grasping towards everything outside. And so when you finally sit down for once, it's almost like you, um, you're driving in the car and you've just hit the brakes and then it's like really uncomfortable cuz you're like, ugh.
Like I, it's like the inertia is like really intense. And so we have to kind of consciously softly land in that edge and then allow that discomfort to be there. And then eventually you start actually craving that inner movement. I.
Eva: Mm-hmm.
Hannah: you turn, it's kind of like you turn the momentum from outward into inward and then you start to notice, oh my God, this feels so much better than the thing that I'm doing out there.
Which you still have to do. We have our responsibilities, but we have to kind of develop a positive relationship to that feeling where it's like, oh, this is a relief, [00:30:00] but it doesn't feel like a relief at first. How could it, how could it possibly feel like a relief at first, you know, it's,
Kyley: Well, and the relief itself might feel wildly uncomfortable, right? Like if, to your point of like, there's a lot of us who are most comfortable in an, in an alert, hyper alert state, right? I'm on my second cup of coffee. Right? So, so, uh, the relief, even if in the moment you're like, oh my God, this feels, this is exactly what I've been looking for.
Like this big glass of water hydration feels so great, right? And also feeling great, might actually feel fucking terrible. Right. And so what I'm also hearing is like some real compassion around, make it easy. Give yourself, I'm thinking of like, you know, when dogs get really old and you give them the ramp to get into bed, you know, like
Hannah: yourself the ramp.
Kyley: give yourself the ramp because there's, there's [00:31:00] resistance.
And the resistance exists, right? And you can't like, like, uh, I'm, it does, and now I'm getting in a mental image of like pole vaulting, right? Like, if we're all these like old, tired dogs, like we're not gonna pole vault. We're the resistance we need to build.
Eva: Yeah. Um,
Hannah: I see it so, so strongly. In my mind's eye, that image is hysterical.
Kyley: Thanks.
Eva: okay. The fact that this is coming up, I'm actually like, like super uncomfortable right now, which is a good sign because I think what's happening, like this could not come at better timing and this always happens on the podcast. Like someone, like one of us needs something and you know, the magic will come in somehow through the conversation.
But basically I'm, this is very vulnerable, but I'm gonna bring it. With a selfish, uh, hope that like, you know, you two can coach me through this experience I'm having, but I've been having this, this old trauma come back up of this belief that essentially from childhood of being like neglected [00:32:00] from my mother who was an alcoholic, blah, blah, blah.
It's like this idea that I'm a piece of shit basically. That's like my story. It's like I'm a piece of shit. And I had this aha moment yesterday where I was like two things. It was like, I don't, if I do the thing good for me, that's loving, then it means that I won't be able to hold onto the story anymore.
So, so similarly to what you were saying, or I think both of you were saying is like the good thing feels uncomfortable because there's some sort of like sick, twisted, masochistic part of me that like. The pain. And again, it's that familiarity. It's like, I like the story that I'm a piece of shit because it's just where I'm more comfortable.
It's where it's the same thing as being more comfortable with being hypervigilant because that's just on some deep-rooted level. That's some belief that I'm just like, but that's good. It's good that I like know that I, I feel that, and it's so strange that it's coming back to me because I'm, this is like old, old, old shit that hasn't come up in a really [00:33:00] long time. So I don't know. It's just like I, yeah. Thoughts. I could say so much more. There's so much more here as well, but I would love to hear what you guys think.
Hannah: Well, you're, I you're saying that the pain is familiar, right? It's like you're in this beautiful, uh, transition space. We could say where you're painfully aware of the why, but you're not quite sure what the, how is yet. Do you see what I mean? You're like in that beautiful space where you have awareness, but you're like, what do I do with this
Eva: Well, I think I actually do know the, the how, which is like, has come back to my meditation practice, my meditation practice of like, let me be here with this pain. And like I let it in and I like let it have its voice. And I say, oh, baby girl, like you're allowed to be here. Like, I see that you think that, and let me just hold you with the deepest compassion.
But like, you never actually have to go away. Like you don't have to change. You're allowed to just exist here alongside me. But, [00:34:00] I'm also gonna come in with like my mama bear energy and be like, I got you. And that feels very loving to me. But the truth is it also feels very, um, it feels very, I'm waiting for myself to feel excited and come back into confidence and be like, yeah, I got this, I got this.
But it doesn't feel like that. It just feels tender. It feels so sad. It feels like I am just experiencing heartache. And I just gotta like, hold myself through that heartache. But it's not the vibrant, you know, like I got this energy that I think I'm craving,
Hannah: Hmm,
Eva: which, um, is also very telling
Hannah: hmm.
Eva: That makes, is this making sense?
Hannah: No, no, no. I am, I, I'm unfortunately also very familiar with this. Did you have anything you wanted to share?
Eva: Kylie's making faces. So,
Kyley: Well I was just laughing because I appreciate, I appreciate your vulnerable share because [00:35:00] I have guarantee people listening are like, oh yeah, I think I'm a piece of shit too.
Hannah: Yeah.
Kyley: Right? Like, this is so relatable. Um,
Eva: yeah. And also just the toxicity of that. Like, I'm talking like, you know, I've talked before on the podcast how I used to be like a pretty toxic person and I would just, it would manifest in my life that I would just like the masochistic shit. Like I liked pain and that was like a, and. Been, that's like a long time ago.
That hasn't been my experience for a very long time, so I'm like, whoa, I can't believe this is coming back up yet.
Kyley: So one thing I noticed in your language is referring to this part of you who likes pain as like, twisted
Eva: Mm-hmm.
Kyley: and I wanna offer like, mm, there's something there, right? Like, like, um, I think it is so convenient for us to, um, want to make. [00:36:00] Scratchy uncomfortable parts of ourselves, like palatable. You know, like I had this journey not too, not too long ago, actually, actually just last week, where I like basically dropped in and met with like the version of me who is like, like loathing and disgusted, right? And this part of me was like truly monsters.
I talk a lot about monsters, Hannah, but like, not like, but not like, oh, I'm like monstrous. And I'm like scary and cool and sexy. Like, no, like actually, like I'm just a like disgust monster, right? And this part of me was so great because it was like, I don't want to like, I don't want you to meet with me.
Your disgust monster. And then make me palatable. Like I am disgust, I am B loathing, I am disgusting. Like it burped at one point quite loudly, right? Like I was like, like do I smell a little like a wet dog? Yeah. I'm your disgust monster. And [00:37:00] don't make me likable in order for you to feel good. Like let me be discussed.
And so I think what if the part of you that, like just two things, like what if the part of you that like re like I'm seeing the image of like holding onto barbed wire, right? Like what if that part of you wasn't twist? Like right. What if, like, is there some part of you that's wanting to like soften the edges of the part of you who like relishes and clings to pain?
Eva: Mm-hmm.
Kyley: Um, and that like maybe that's just a valid part of who you are and just exists. Um,
Hannah: Yeah.
Kyley: Yeah, that's the first thing I have to think of.
Hannah: Yeah. Well, it's, it's also, I, I really vibe with that too, because it's also, I also think that we can cause ourselves a lot of unnecessary suffering when we think that certain parts of ourselves need to totally go away, when in reality it's more like we just need to [00:38:00] change our relationship to these parts and have different conversations with them.
But I do wanna share that. Um, disillusionment is always sad, actually.
Kyley: Hmm.
Hannah: And it's like, even like the example that I like to give is like in the Matrix when Neo wakes up in the tide in the pod and he's like ripping all of the wires off of him. And then it like takes him like weeks, I guess, like in the movie for him to like, be able to function again when he like wakes up.
And, um, I can only imagine that Neil like wasn't having a good time and he was like pulling all of those wires off. Right. And so in real life though, like disillusionment. Is always sad in a lot of ways. Not always, but like a lot of the time it's sad because it's a loss and so you're losing part of your meaning-making system because part of your meaning-making system was I'm a piece of shit
Eva: Mm-hmm.
Hannah: I'm a piece of shit actually was helping you to make sense of [00:39:00] your experience
Eva: Mm-hmm.
Hannah: on some level.
And so you're losing that piece of your meaning-making system and you're in the space where you need to kind of adopt a more conscious meaning-making system. Because if you step into the reality of I am actually worthy and nothing about me needs to change, that will shift. That's a new meaning-making system that helps you to a digest all of the experiences you'll continue to have in a different way.
Eva: Yeah. Okay. So much fucking juicy gold here. Yes, yes, yes, yes, yes. Snaps to everything. So I first wanna comment, like, respond to what Kylie said. Um, actually, and I think this is what really what we're all saying, Hannah, I know you referenced this too. It's like, yeah, it doesn't have to go away. And I think that is like the relationship that I'm building is that like, yeah, you are gross or base or foul or whatever, but there's, it is this feeling that I've come to of like, yeah, you don't have to.
It's just so loving, you know? It is unconditional fucking love for the self. It's like you never have to [00:40:00] change. You are allowed to be here forever. Which I think is actually so different from the normal self-help narrative, which is that like, this is something that you need to get rid of, blah, blah, blah.
We all know this, right? But I love what you said about disillusionment. I love a matrix like reference, cuz I love that movie forever and ever. But like when you were talking about disillusionment, I was like, oh, I know what this is. It's grief. It's it's grief because you're losing something. And it's also, and this happens with my clients too, where I see them hold on so tightly to a belief and then they don't wanna let go of it.
Because what happens is, I, I had a client say to me this, to this, to me, long, not, not long ago, but she was like, but if I don't have this then I don't know who I am. It's like, you really like, it's ego identification. It's like you're so, it's, you're it, it's.
Hannah: of who they are.
Eva: it's scary. It's scary because it really is like, like you said, disillusionment, it's it's death of your, you know, it's death.
It's like ego death. It's, it's, [00:41:00] it's like you kind of feel like you're gonna disappear almost. And that at least that's like maybe, and maybe
Kyley: because a part of you.
Eva: Yeah, in a way you are. And that's actually kind of the, the funny thing is, is the, that's like the very thing that we want. That's actually what we want. But when we get close to what we want, and this is, I think like the spiritual dance often is like, um, the thing that we want, the thing that we resist most is also the thing that we want the most.
Hannah: Yes. No, I mean it's great that you brought up the ego thing as well because there's a lot of different, um, there's actually like two big different views of what the ego actually is. And so when I speak about the ego, I'm always speaking about it from the yoga perspective. And in Sanskrit ego is Aham Kara, which means I am the doer.
Quite literally, that's the translation. So the ego is the part of the mind that thinks it's doing everything, when in reality God's doing everything. But that's the thing that we have to kind of figure out. And, but the ego is also the aspect of our mind that grabs things and, [00:42:00] and identifies with it. So it's the ego is this identity making system.
And so the spiritual process is to loosen the grip on our limited. And so when people are really tightly gripping to their identity as piece of shit, for example, you're not the only person. There's gonna be people listening that have that one too, right? It's you if you let go of it. That's where that feeling of who am I comes from?
Because the ego is like, no, this is who we are, and that's actually keeping us safe,
Eva: Mm-hmm. Yeah.
Hannah: right?
Eva: Yeah. Which is I think what peop this is why it's like so exciting. I, I've talked about this before where like I was in a med medicine experience and I was like, oh my God. I get, I'm like really close to the edge of like consciousness, but I like can't get in there cuz it's so scary. But it's, it's like, um, that quote, which I really think sums up what we're talking about, this idea of like, it's actually when you become nothing, then you are [00:43:00] everything but the people think nothing is nothing but, but it's actually not nothing.
It's like the gateway and opening to something else that I don't have language for, but it's, um, yeah, you kind of do disappear. To make room for something that the, that, that is like a question mark. And that's why it's so fucking scary because the question mark that I don't know, the mystery is like really can, if you don't know yet, it's usually something really lovely and wonderful, but our mind is just so scared of the unknown of like the black hole essentially of chaos, of Kylie's, what you talk about, which like has scared me for a long time.
I'm like, no, chaos is scary. But Kylie's kind of helped me turn that story around.
Hannah: Nice.
Kyley: Um, yeah, it is so funny how protective I am of the term chaos. Um, uh, I have a question for you, Hannah. Um, so this, I, so I think [00:44:00] I love what we're speaking to, right? Which is that the thing that we want, which is to not feel like a piece of shit. Is also the thing that we are obviously we're like really resistant to.
Right. And I, and I do think the closer we get, the louder the resistance gets. Right? So, um, uh, the closer we get to like, maybe like softening or letting go. So, so what is your, what is, what is your kind of guidance for people when they come up against like a story that they have wrapped around themselves and they, and they witness it, right?
Like this, like, you know, um, you know, this story will use as an example of like, I'm a piece of shit. And realizing like, okay, I, I don't need it anymore. And also it's still here and I am both wanting to be through it, you know, wanting to let it go. And also I'm holding onto it tightly. My ego is pulling it in tightly.
Um, yeah. How do you, from your, that you hold, how do you walk people through [00:45:00] letting go?
Hannah: I also think there's other baseline considerations that can help to let go and to help to let go of our identification with the thoughts that we're having as being who we are. So if you never let, if you never consider that, you're always going to think that whatever is passing through your mind is a reflection of who you are. Whereas there is a more, a different, I would say like the yogic view is more like thoughts actually don't even originate in ourselves.
Kyley: Hmm.
Hannah: like this western materialist idea that our thoughts are originating in our brain, but actually there's this more kind of subtle view in different worldviews where it's like thoughts are actually almost like weather that pass through our subtle body.
And so when you start to entertain the idea that my thoughts might not even belong to me fully, you feel less attacked by the narrative that's [00:46:00] coming up in your mind. And you know, even like sometimes I get random songs stuck in my head and it makes no fucking sense. Like, I haven't listened to that song ever.
And, and sometimes when I have that experience, I wonder if, if the person driving in the car next to me was listening to that song, I can't physically hear it. But it was part of the, the, the, the thought weather in that moment. And it, and because my being is actually so permeable and impressionable, I am, my thoughts might not, most of the thoughts that I'm having might have nothing to do with.
Eva: Mm-hmm.
Hannah: So this is, this is a worldview shift that's like a worldview shift. And so what my question is to answer your question is like, what, what's the baseline consideration? Do you believe that your thoughts are actually a reflection of who you are? Or is it more like maybe we, uh, are, are more subtle aspects of our being are used to welcoming different thoughts into our guest house and being like, oh, you're, I'm a piece [00:47:00] of shit.
Like, you're welcome here, versus other thoughts come into the guest house and you're like, mm, no, we're no vacancy. You know? And then part of the process is to
Kyley: Oh, that love and adoration checks the hotel down street.
Hannah: sorry. We don't have any rooms open. And so, you know, it's, it's more like, uh, re when you realize that your thoughts are actually part of this weather system that we're embedded in, whether we like it or not, you can more consciously empower thoughts that are spiritually beneficial or emotionally beneficial.
And then talk to the thoughts that are not so good and be like, Hey, you know, we used to go to the bar together. I'm sober now. What if we went to the park and had tea? Like, you know, it's like, I actually think having like, di you guys seem to get this, but it's like having dialogue with your own mind makes more sense when you actually realize that what you're talking to might not even be belong to you. Do you see what I mean? Like that's like a subtle shift where it's like, because sometimes when people talk to their mind, they think they're talking to themselves. Like, I'm talking [00:48:00] to this guest who's flying into my space. It has, it's not even part of me. Do you see what I mean?
Eva: So, okay. I love this so much. So hold on. I'm a, I'm a medi, I'm a meditation teacher, so like, this comes up a lot with my clients when we're meditating and I will say this thing to people where I'm like, Your thoughts are not when we like meditate together and I'll be like, your thoughts are not personal.
Your thoughts are not personal. And I've had many people get really mad at me. They get so pissed because they're frustrated cuz they're like, that doesn't make any sense to me. Of course they're personal, they're my thoughts and we're so, it's, they're almost like insulted and not them. But I get, I get it like, it's like frustrating cuz you're like, of course they're my thoughts.
I feel them so deeply. And, and the fact that you just like dismiss that like it is really fucking annoying. And I, and I like, and I get that, but this is why I encourage people to meditate. The clearest way I've seen this to be able to see that my thoughts are not personal is through observation, is like you sit in stillness and you like actually have the experience of being like, what the fuck?
This thing just came [00:49:00] in. And it has, it's completely not mine. It's not that big of a deal. It could be like the most intense thought and you realize and you're just like not attached to it. And I've seen my clients come back to me and be like, oh, now I understand what you're saying. Like these are not personal.
And so, and yet here I am really identified with my thoughts. And so I think it's like, I'm so thankful for my practice because what happens is you forget which is totally okay and human. And that's not like a bad, bad thing. It's like, I will forget. I will forget every fucking day. I will forget every single day because something is going to emotionally hook something in me and I'll, you know, get into it and that's okay.
But if you feel like your thoughts are personal, I just, you know, really encourage you to sit down with yourself.
Hannah: Mm-hmm.
Eva: for a while and just observe. I think you'll be really, um, like pleasantly surprised or it's gonna be funny sometimes it's like hilarious.
Hannah: [00:50:00] Sometimes I think the, okay, so we're actually talking about a topic that I personally find in my own, kind of like mentorship work to be one of the hardest concepts to explain to people, because the ability to witness what's happening in your mind is an experiential reality. It's almost like no amount of me explaining it will teach you how to witness your mind.
It's actually really, really, I don't know if you have the same experience. It's really hard to talk about it, but something that I found helpful is that everyone is capable of doing this. And actually at different times in our life, we've all been able to witness what's happening. And so I like to kind of like talk with people about this and be like, have you ever had an experience in your life when you were just so clearly just like watching what's happening without like a big story around it or, you know, any of these things?
Because we need evidence of the fact that we actually are capable of the thing. And then we can drag that evidence into our sitting practice and remind ourselves, I actually can do this. And something that's kind of unfortunate, but it's [00:51:00] real is that I've t that a lot of people I've talked to have told me that they've, I've been able to access the witness state during like emergencies.
Kyley: Yeah.
Hannah: it's like when, when you're in like a serious situation, everything falls away and you're just actually extremely present with what's going on. And so when I remind people or I have a dialogue with somebody where we talk about that, people are like, oh wow. Like I have had that experie. And then it's not that we want to put ourselves in emergencies, that's not the point.
It's more like we need proof of the fact that this is something we have done, and then we can kind of try to court that experience in our ex, in our being more consciously. And that's really the inner witness, which is something that everybody has.
Kyley: I love what you're speaking to on so many levels. One, because I think so much of the journey, like the spiritual journey is this, pursuit isn't the right word, but this like, like you're walking towards something that you don't actually know right? When you do right. Some deep [00:52:00] part of you obviously knows it, but also like if you're on a journey to invite in unconditional love and also.
For ex like, and also you haven't experienced unconditional love in this life, right? In this lifetime. You're on this journey. This is why I think this, this, this, uh, again, I'm fumbling a language. I'm hasn't used the word work, but the work of the spiritual evolution is so exquisite and bold and scary because you're actually creating something that doesn't exist for you yet.
Right. And I just think that, that, so what you're speaking to is like, yeah, that, that's my experience over and over again. It's like I drop into something where I'm like, oh, this is what I was looking for and I didn't actually know it because I hadn't experienced it yet.
Hannah: Yes.
Kyley: Um, and then you're also reminding me of, um, to the point of like, I love this idea of thoughts as weather because it also gives you this, um, sense of.
Yeah, like weather patterns. They come and they go and they influence you and they're bigger than [00:53:00] you. And I was, I'm remembering back years ago when I did yoga teacher training, and there was one day where we were doing mudras, which if you guys aren't familiar, it's just when you hold your hands, you know, there's particular ways of holding your hands that I'm sure you could have split this much better than me.
But that, um, you know, uh, as, uh, are affiliate associated with like different energy flows. And she didn't give us context for what the mudras were before she had us do, do each one. And what I watched was the moodra. And then she would explain it and sort of, you know, she'd say, what did you experience? And then she would give context for like, okay, this Mora does.
Yes, of course you all experienced great peace just now because that's what this moodra was about or whatever. It was really, really cool. But in particular, a couple things I observed was when it was something that when, when the kind of theme of the moodra was something that I had a deeper access to, I could feel the energy of it.
And when it was one that was more uncomfortable for me, uh, I would start thinking, but my thoughts would track exactly to [00:54:00] the mudra. Like, I'm trying to think of an example, but there was maybe one that was about like, um, like structure, uh, and, and discipline. And I immediately started thinking of like all the things I need to do at home, right?
And so I was in the weather of, you know, structure and discipline, uh, and, but I couldn't access that. I couldn't f I didn't have the safety to feel that energy in my body. So instead my mind was like, oh, you remember those dishes? You're a piece of shit. that was a really cool experience of what you're saying.
But your thoughts as weather is, like, your thoughts are reflecting what you're feeling and what you're feeling might be your own. It might be, it might be shifting weather, it might be many things. Um, but also there's something, there's, there's something much deeper happening underneath the surface of those thoughts.
Hannah: I actually think it's really in relationship to this thought weather thing. It's interesting to consider, I'm gonna pause at this for anyone who's listening, and [00:55:00] also for you guys, like lot of people find it easier to meditate in group settings,
Kyley: Hmm.
Hannah: in classes, in spiritual community and all these things, and it's actually partially because of the thought weather. You're surrounded by other people that are trying to do that too.
Eva: Mm-hmm.
Hannah: it's almost like it gets easier because you're surrounded in that you're in that weather.
Eva: Yeah. It's like you really do. I think you can really, it's a beautiful thing, I think like utilize the energy of the group, but there's something really like helpful about that. Yeah. Which is how I like really deepened my practice to go from, you know, when I first started it was like 10 to 20 to 30 minutes on my own.
And then I would go to like one day retreats and then, and you go to like a longer retreat and it's like everyone is just there, like stealing their mind. And I think that energy is really Cata Cata, yeah. Contagious and catalyzing,
Hannah: Totally. Yeah.
Eva: which is why community is, but this, which is, we're gonna talk about meditation.
It's just interesting because like, [00:56:00] my experience was so long, I was like, oh, this is a solo practice. I'm a really solitary person. Um, and, and I think. It can become too, not isolating, but you just think that's something that you just do on your own because it is such a personal thing. You're literally sitting in silence with your eyes closed with yourself.
You're not talking to anybody, you know? And so, but you can do that also in community with other people. Yeah.
Hannah: I learned to meditate in community
Eva: Mm. Yeah.
Hannah: I, and then I obviously do it in my, on my own, but I really feel like my, my biggest meditation experiences have been in community, not even necessarily by myself.
Kyley: Yeah,
Hannah: Yeah.
Kyley: amplification of, um, just intentional space, right? Like the spaces I hold are less about, um, meditation, but. Um, more about like the, um, anyway, it's not that important. It's not that important, but, [00:57:00] um, but I ask people to like step in and feel deeply. So I don't use the tool of meditation, but I ask them to step in and feel deeply.
And I am consistently blown away by how quickly people drop in
Eva: Mm-hmm.
Kyley: because, um, because of the com, because of the space, right? Because the space that's being held, like my, my business partner and I, um, but also that all the other people who are holding the space in a way that, um, it just consistently blows me away how quickly we can give ourselves permission to drop in.
I think. Cause I think there's also something about the safety too, right? Whether it's meditation or feeling deeply, or meditation where, which you feel deeply. Um,
Eva: Yeah. I mean, feeling deeply, I think is a form of meditation, you know? Yeah,
Kyley: true. That's true. I do, I do sum my spiritual practice is feeling my feelings.
Eva: yeah, and that, and it is like you're just being present. It's a way of being really present with what's going on in your whole system. That's meditation, you know? Yeah.[00:58:00]
Kyley: yes. Um, oh yeah. I love that point.
Hannah: Well, you're one pointing the mind. I mean, somebody is like to one point the mind. So if you're one pointing your mind into a feeling that actually is a form of meditation.
Eva: Yeah, and there's also so many different forms of meditation. Sometimes it's mine, but there's also a body meditation, right? And a body meditation is, or like a sensation meditation is a, is an emotion meditation. Like it's all really connected. I just think of it as like as presence, but I will say like there's, again, I'm just full of quotes today, but the quote, the quote, actually, no, this is, yeah, for my teacher, he was like, if you haven't like wept deeply in meditation, then you haven't meditated
Hannah: Oh yeah. If you
Eva: because like,
Hannah: tears. You've missed the point. Oh
Eva: yeah, exactly.
Like you go to these meditation retreats and like, people are just like, every day they'll be somebody who's just like bawling their fucking eyes out. It's, yeah. It's not just like this whole zen thing where you're just, you know, focusing the
Hannah: Oh no.
Eva: so alive with your human experie.
Hannah: Oh my God. [00:59:00] Yeah. No, I mean, I meditate to be present with the beloved. That's why it's almost like when you sit on your cushion, it's you're drawn there on some level because you get to be present with the felt sensation of God. A lot of people don't know what that felt sensation is. And that's one of the things that I have to teach people.
It's actually there right now. You just have to know how to look at it. But it's like, you know, meditation to me is just like meditating on this inner light of God within me that I love. And actually love is the motivating force. And appreciation is the motivating force. It's like it's not even, yeah, it's like that's really the impetus for me.
And then all of the things that we get from meditation are like perks.
Kyley: Yes.
Hannah: It's not, I'm not doing it to, to, for mindfulness. I'm not doing it for the sake of I'm gonna be more productive. Fuck that. I'm doing that because I wanna be with the beloved. And those things are side, side effects.
Eva: Mm-hmm.
Hannah: Those things are side effects.[01:00:00]
Eva: Yeah.
Kyley: I had a question for you. So one of the things I watch in myself, I basically, because I have such a, had such a long story about like doing things right or wrong, I basically just like sneak door my way, like backdoor my way into things, right? Where like to my point of like, I'm not meditating, I'm just feeling my feelings because then I don't have to play the game of like meditating right or wrong.
I am aware of my own games, right? But they're helpful. I'll use them for now. But one of the things that I, so while I do this thing in the morning where I'm like, I'm just drinking my tea and sitting quietly, um, can't fuck this up. Um,
Eva: Or, but, but would it like ruin it for you if I was like, oh, but you're meditating,
Kyley: But I know that it is, right? Like, it's just like, it's like it's a script that this, that continues to be like music you put on, like the, like the mustache before you go on stage, right? It's like this, this script is like a handy tool, but, um, but one of the things that I observe sometimes, sometimes I can drop beneath this, but, you know, I do have these, these incredible experiences of like feeling the presence of God, right?
Of feeling like the expanse [01:01:00] of love that it, that lives in my, in my center. And sometimes it's really easy and then some to touch into and obviously sometimes it's not. And I, watch myself feel critical or just kind of choose to disassociate when that feels harder to access. And so I think we've done this really cool job so far in this conversation talking about how.
It's complicated. If you don't know, if you don't know that feeling, it's complicated. Then I think there's this other part where you do know that feeling and then it's complicated because, um, because maybe you don't, it's not, it's not there or it's not present or it's not as easy to access or whatever.
And so I'm curious from either of you, um, what, how you, how you coach people or hold people through that? Cuz intellectually I know like stop grasping and seeking and just be with whatever is, and also those are often moments where my mind, it just gets louder. So,
Hannah: Mm-hmm. You can go ahead.
Eva: I, [01:02:00] I have, I. You, I mean, I had thoughts, but you're our guest. I feel like I would love for you to, unless you want me
Hannah: Sure. No, no, no. I'll go. Um, so, okay, this is the way, so, okay. There's a lot of moving parts to the way that I teach. Um, it's more like we're trying to develop a lifestyle of sadina, which is spiritual practice. It's like, it's not ever just one thing. It's like we're trying to. Move all of the pieces of our reality in a way that can one point our mind towards God, like constantly, right?
Very God focused with me. But, um, I, one of the impeding important pieces is to have a sacred space or an alter space or devotional space. It's, uh, it's un you cannot not do that, in my opinion. And the reason why is because that space, um, becomes a phone booth in which you can call God basically, because from the spiritual worldview of my tradition, we have this re, this i, this conception that [01:03:00] God comes forward wherever invoked, wherever invoked if you, and so you need to have an invocation space.
And so when it comes to the invocation of God and your devotional space, something that we need to remember is that God, uh, we could say that God has two aspects. There's a polarity, there's the indifference of the void. There's the indifference of the witness, which, um, has never been born, has never incarnated, and is simply witnessing the movements of incarnation.
And then there's the kind of like obsession of the living presence. That's the way that I kind of put it. There's also this other side that's like the, the power of God. It's like the living intelligence that's like making up this physical reality. And so when we're meditating, we are really actually kind of having a relationship with this living presence.
If you talk about the somatic felt presence of God, that's the living aspect of [01:04:00] God as opposed to the witnessing aspect. And so I like to humanize and almost anthropo anthropomorphize God because it helps me to relate with her. I use female pronouns when I speak about God. And so we're dealing with a living presence.
And so if she's like a person, so to speak, not, not that I think God is a person, but it's like this helps me to conceptualize, like when you go to relate with her, she's almost like different every day. She's not the like, she's like, she's almost like there's all this stuff going on and there's also all this stuff going on within my own being that becomes a membrane that I need to consciously pass through or not.
And so it's like, especially when it comes to like offering, if you offer in your devotional space, it's like if you were to bring your partner, their favorite sandwich on their lunch break every single day, they're gonna respond differently every time. They're not a robot. show gratitude hopefully, right?
But [01:05:00] maybe they're really distracted. Maybe they are really like, oh my God, it's so great that you bring me the same much every time, but they're not gonna react the same way every time. And so I like to humanize this living presence that we experience because it will, um, help us to, to soften and feel more compassion towards ourselves when the presence doesn't come right away. Sometimes it does come right away.
Eva: Mm-hmm.
Hannah: and part of the process as well is learning how to invoke it in a way that works for your unique expression as a human being, everyone's different. Everyone's different. I mean, God created, uh, created our vantage points as like unique pathways for her to experience more and more of herself.
For her to remember more and more of her real identity through your form. And because of that, your individuality is like a unique labyrinth in which God has to navigate to remember who she really is, which is you. And so because of that, every labyrinth is different. And [01:06:00] I think a lot of people suffer cuz they think I need to be doing it the way that Romana Maharishi did it.
No, you don't. You can learn from him. Absolutely. I'm pro guru, absolutely. But it's like the things that I tinker with in the lab of my experience are very unique to me. other people tinker with things in their lab of their experience. I can kind of push people in a certain direction. But no one's ever gonna experience it in the same way.
And it's even like when you look, when you read, I'm actually really into the whole guru thing, which is a whole other conversation. But if you read about the lives of, um, saints and yogis, like great yogis in India who were liberated in the body, all of their God realization stories are different. If it was all supposed to be the same thing, we would all have the same experience when we remember our true identity.
And that's literally not the case. And so it's like, you know, so, ooh, I just went off for a while. What are you, what do you, you had any thoughts?
Eva: I mean, I'm fucking smiling ear to ear girl. That was Fya like that, that was obviously like God coming through [01:07:00] you and being like, Hey, here's a message. Like, oh, this is a little love bomb. I'm just gonna drop on this podcast. Like that's, um, I mean I, what can I say to that? I just, yes, as in I think what I love about this, you used the word tinkering, which I really wanna hold onto cuz it's like encouraging people to go out and tinker and figure out the way in which God can come through you and you can kind of create that little maze.
I think that is a word you used. Um, which is it, you know, I'm receiving this as empowering. It's like also fun and you
Hannah: it's fun.
Eva: you get to. I mean, yes, you, you work with someone who can give you an outline and suggestions or whatever, but ultimately, you know, I think if you're working with someone to help you feel closer to God, they're, they're doing their work when they're empowering you to figure it out
Hannah: Oh, oh. Totally. Oh my God. I literally tell people when I do mentorship work with them at a certain point, like I think it's like the third session I have [01:08:00] like a curriculum that I take people through and it's like on the third session or something I'll be like, Hey, so um, I'm teaching you a narrative to help you to conceive of God, which is actually inconceivable.
But, and I believe this, I believe I quote unquote believe this narrative. I take this narrative quite seriously, but every narrative is false because a narrative is made up of language, and language is actually a barrier to our ex experience of God. And so I'm giving you a narrative that's gonna help you to experience this reality that only you can experience.
And so I'm gonna tell you all this stuff, but you're the one that has to prove me wrong or prove me right? You're the one that has to test out all the stuff that I'm telling. And the things that I'm telling you about have been tested by yogis for, uh, a long time. So there's a reason why we suggest certain things, but nothing, God is only a feeling or an experience.
And so if you're not tr actively trying to engage with certain [01:09:00] things, you're not gonna get the result that you're looking for, but it's on you. I can only give you suggestions.
Kyley: Which is also why, oh, the language thing is one of my favorite topics because this is also why, uh, we can't know God through language, right? We can't. This is also why our thoughts are, are the, our weather, because our thoughts, our language and language is inherently, instantly actually at separation from the thing in which it is describing, not to mention separate from, but also like languages defined by.
Right. Language has like x number of words, X like parameters of concept, um, and whatever it's speaking to, um, whether it's God or a sheep is which is the God, right? Which is the sheep, is, is, um, is only experience. Um, and I think that's also part of what is, uh, deeply uncomfortable about dropping beneath mind, right?
And dropping beneath language [01:10:00] into experience is because it's inherently also dropping beneath control.
Hannah: Mm-hmm. Oh my God. Yeah. Wow.
Kyley: yeah. Yeah.
Eva: I'm just like, you know, it's 11:00 AM here. I just love these, having conversations about God. Um, 11 A on a Monday. Um, okay, Kylie, but can I come back to your, so I wanna come back to your question though about
Kyley: yes. See, I, I had totally forgot my initial question. I was,
Eva: yeah. No, my Capricorn mind is like gonna bring us back. The question being like, what does one do when I think your question was like, when you don't feel connected to God,
Hannah: yeah. Mm-hmm.
Kyley: Yeah.
Eva: And, and then there's that annoying feeling of like, you know what it can feel like. So now you're like, why isn't it here essentially? Um, and this is why. This is my, my answer is just my tinkering. Right? And Hannah, your answer is just your tinkering. And so we all, what I love about this is like, yeah, everyone's just got their way of tinkering.
But I do wanna come back to an answer that I think might resonate with you specifically Kylie, because it's come up so fucking [01:11:00] often, which is the answer to like, all of life, it turns out, is just surrender. Just surrender. So what I mean by that is when you are feeling like, ugh, I don't, I feel an absence of God, or I feel a cr or a, a craving for God, and I'm judging myself for craving it, it's really just accepting the outermost layer of resistance.
So whatever it is that you are resisting or the, it's like, or maybe it's like, I don't fucking feel God right now, and, and I feel sad, like I feel disconnected or mad because something's like wrong with me or something. Then be that, be the sadness. Like accept that you are angry or sad or, or whatever. And I think it's, it's just a really simple way of being.
Like, to me, that again brings me, like, whenever I stop resisting anything essentially and come into acceptance, I relax and God [01:12:00] is, I don't know. To me God is just like, relax. It's like a really, it's this loving, all-encompassing, everything is allowed. You are safe. Just relax. Like you can have this experience, which then just like opens me up into being present with where I am now.
And that's God, like me being present with just re reality as it is without needing to change it in divine love is God. And then, and then it's like, it's like almost this weird way in which you, you get back into it just by being with the thing that you don't wanna be with essentially, which is what you do with your clients every fucking day.
Kyley: yes. Okay. So I love this because what you also just gifted me is, um, to, because of course, okay. What you're gifting me is a realization that in those moments what's happening is that I'm just resisting experience, which is like, yes, of course. That of course that's happening, right? I'm resisting experience.
And so, cuz you were saying like, if you're angry, be angry If you're sad, [01:13:00] be sad. And I realized that the like belonging or the like that I might be feeling, or the squirminess that I might be feeling is that I don't know what I'm feeling cuz I'm in mind, right? Because I'm in like churn or to-do list and which is my tell, just walking myself through this process, which is my tell that there's something I'm actually uncomfortable feeling, right?
So maybe there's grief or fear or shame or some, uh, some emotion that for some reason I'm buffering on and that's why I popped back up into mind. Um, so that feels somehow very obvious and also like beautiful invitation that in, if I'm in that place, part of the tinkering for me is like, oh, hi, hi, curious squirmy feeling that doesn't wanna be felt.
I, I, I see the shadow of you. Um, and that being a. Door open. And I also really, really love the reminder to like, [01:14:00] acknowledge and be with the outermost labor of resistance.
Eva: yeah. Because what if you're in mind, maybe the, what you notice in that moment isn't the feeling, but it's like, oh, you're in the mind. And it's like, I've had this conversation with myself so many times where I'm like, How do I know I'm not supposed to be in mind right now? Like, like, I think I'm not supposed to be in mind like, ha ha, ha god, God's like laughing at me.
Like, you're funny, you're cute. You think you're not supposed to be in, you think that that's wrong. Why is that
Hannah: Well, she is your mind.
Kyley: Right.
Hannah: I think a lot of people love like saying everything is God and they're really into non-dualism, but they don't even live it. Or they, they have all sorts of thoughts that limit the fullness of non-dualism, which is everything. And so I think that like we are really complicated beings who live in a really complicated reality.
And nothing about our experience indicates that the path to God is simple, right? I mean, [01:15:00] we're, I'm, each of us are very complicated beings who have complicated histories, who live in a complicated reality where every moment that passes, we have another struggle that we have to endure, right? And so we naturally might think, oh, to feel and experience, God needs to be this really complicated path, but actually God is closer to you than the echo of the jugular vein.
That's like from the Quran. It's like God is closer to you than the closest thing that you can even conceive of. Because God is actually every aspect of your being, including the mind. And so, you know, when I, when it comes to teaching people, if I ever could, how to experience the imminence of God in their everyday life, I mean, the fact that you're alive right now is God, God is the living aspect.
God is pna. And so if anyone ever really wants to contemplate, how is God present within me? Well, you're not making your heartbeat. God, in a way. Prana is the thing that's continuing to allow you [01:16:00] to live another moment. And so literally all you have to do is be with your heartbeat. And that's a way to it, doesn't it?
It's allowed to be that fucking easy.
Eva: Mm.
Hannah: People think it needs to be this other thing. Um, but, you know, I think that the, the, the, the best way, the most effective way to really teach people to build a relationship with their inner God is through the sensations of pleasure and love.
Kyley: Mm-hmm.
Hannah: um, anytime you feel good, like when you're drinking a really tasty coffee drink, you are embracing your children, you know, anything that feels really good.
The, the yoga, the one of the first yoga realities is recognizing that the love isn't coming from your children.
Kyley: Mm
Hannah: The love isn't coming from the pleasure isn't coming from the coffee. It's actually, those are occasions that are keying off God to flash forward from within you in the form of pleasure, in the form of love.[01:17:00]
And so when you really start to entertain that idea, every time you experience pleasure is a momentary act of worship. Every time you fall in love, God is throwing you a rope and all you have to do is climb it, but you have to like consciously try to shift into that.
Kyley: hmm.
Hannah: It's a whole learning process because nothing about our sensorial experience would lead us to believe that love doesn't come from your children. Love doesn't come from the coffee drink. It really seems that way, and that's why the yogis throughout history would shun the senses because the senses are thieves that steal from us are awareness of the inner nature of God, but the senses don't have to be thieves.
They can be gateways if we look at it as moments of worship.
Kyley: Yeah. And allowing to be moments of worship also allows us not to clinging so tightly to, uh, our children.
Hannah: Yeah.
Kyley: Right. It allows us to like honor their [01:18:00] sovereignty because you don't like, you know, you don't make me happy. Um, uh, same thing with like, you know, spending money or buying coffee, you know, getting a good coffee drink.
It's like we can, we can clinging to these rituals, we give them the power of that experience
Hannah: Yeah. Well there's disillusionment in this as well where you're gonna even gonna come back to this too, because I actually have talked with a lot of people who go through a grief process when they realize that love isn't coming from their partner. Your whole meaning-making system is based around that.
That's why we're so obsessed with love and relationships in this culture. We really think that's what's gonna complete us. But the yogis looked for the source of love. The yogis felt love, and then they looked for the source of it. And the only way that you can really, and that's one of the reasons why sitting practice is valuable, is because you do have to catch that rope and sit with it and follow it.
But you have to do that and stillness before you can really start doing it actively in.[01:19:00]
Kyley: And I love what you're saying so much because I think the other thing that gets to happen is as we allow, I love this idea of like, like these moments of exper describe speaking these to ourselves as moments of worship, but there is, um, there's such an extra layer of richness when. Like last night, uh, my husband, I was doing my taxes.
Not
Hannah: Love it. I just paid my taxes yesterday. Good for you.
Kyley: job for dumbest. I have like six days and I finally was doing them, but I was doing my taxes. Were watching golf, which like, I don't fucking give a shit about golf. And my husband had fallen asleep. So, uh, like, so like, anyways, I looked over at my husband and he's like half asleep and like snoring just a teeny tiny bit, right?
And I'm doing this totally boring task. We're still watching golf because that's just what was on. And I just felt so like, oh, I could cry for how much I just felt in love with this person. [01:20:00] And, um, and the richness of that moment in part got to exist. Because I have fewer, not none to be clear, but I have fewer hooks on.
These things make me happy, right? So the like complexity and kind of slime of taxes and the totally boringness of golf and the incredible human that is my husband like all got to swirl together and in that moment I just experienced that deep love. So, um, it was really great. It was a really great moment.
Um, but I share that cuz I think there is such a gift in like, unhooking the people that we love from being the thing that make
Hannah: Mm
Kyley: experience love.
Eva: Mm-hmm.
Hannah: Oh. Oh my God. Big
Eva: Oh my God. That could be like a whole nother podcast conversation, y'all. That's one. That one's like, I think a big one. Huge. A huge one. But I just had to say, Kai, thank you for painting that
Hannah: teaching a course [01:21:00] about love and relationships in May. That's gonna be
Eva: Ooh.
Hannah: over this stuff.
Kyley: Do you wanna speak to it
Eva: Yeah. Let's.
Kyley: clearly I just queued you up.
Hannah: Yeah. I like, I, it's, um, it's gonna be at the end of May, so I still have like two months to really plan it out, but, um, it's basically just gonna be, I still need to find the title.
I always like churn on things for a while before I really find the title. But it's basically just like, um, I'm trying to speak to this desire that I see in people to have a spiritual relationship. And so what I really wanna do is give a kind of chorus about what does it actually mean to be in a spiritual relationship. And a lot of people think, oh, I have to have a spiritual partner to be in a spiritual relationship. And that is not
Eva: Mm mm.
Hannah: That's not true. What makes a relationship spiritual is your ability to consistently remember that your partner is also God, regardless of how they feel about it. And then [01:22:00] also to, um, experience inner sovereignty in your awareness of where love actually is coming from. And absolutely being with a spiritual partner can be beneficial for sure. Um, I am part of a spiritual community and there's a lot of people who don't have spiritual partners who have obstacles because their partner doesn't like that they're meditating. Their partner doesn't like that. They wanna go to this program at the ashram every week because they wanna hang out with them, and the partners allowed to feel that way.
Right? But it is bene that could be an obstacle for somebody who really wants to take their path seriously, because their partner is like, I want you with me every Saturday night. Don't hang out with the ashram. Do you see what I mean? And so that's the only reason why a not spiritual partner as an obstacle is if they are actively getting in the way of you really engaging with your spiritual quests.
But they don't have to do that because what really tells the story of our life is our ability to [01:23:00] remember that everyone that we interact with is the same thing.
Kyley: Yeah,
Hannah: And I have a spiritual partner, which I'm very grateful for, and that can, that is beneficial to me because he keeps me in remembrance too, because he feels the same way, but I don't need him either.
So I'm, yeah, that's, that's kind of the crux of it. There's a bunch of other stuff I'm gonna
Kyley: uh, I really love this and it's, it's been a, a journey for me. So my husband and I have been together for like, almost 20 years. Um, and the, the, there was a point in which I had real grief about my husband is spiritual in his own way, but,
Hannah: Mm-hmm.
Kyley: um, it's a quieter part of his life. And there was a period of feeling real.
Well, there's a period of me like just hiding, being a spiritual person. Right. And him like very sweetly being like, if it's important to you, it's important to me. And then there was a period of me having some real grief about wanting to share with him and feeling like, feeling like that [01:24:00] wasn't, it was because it wasn't his world.
It was, it felt more like giving status reports then. Um, and anyways, obviously it's evolved and evolved and evolved over years. But one of the things that I feel really grateful for is, is in particular the way in which he doesn't have the same experience with spirituality as me, has freed me from the putting the pressure of belief as meaning anything.
Right? Like, because what he believes is not important. Cause what I believe isn't important, to your point earlier, it's all about, it's about the experience beneath, right? And there's a way in which I think, uh, If he had, quote unquote, believed the same things as me, uh, I could have been caught in this stage where we just like tossed belief and thought and ideas back and forth and, and not actually fallen into experience.
Because what I, what, where I sit now and it will just keep [01:25:00] evolving and, you know, in all sorts of different ways, but is, um, is more about to your point of like, it doesn't matter other than the fact that I witnessed him as God and me as God, and, and, and, and relish. This spiderweb we're weaving back and forth.
Hannah: Wow. Well, something that, okay, so there's people who are listening to this that have no idea, like, Who I am or like what I do, like what my spiritual background is. And so I, I'm sure you'll do like an intro or something, but like, I wanna share that my spiritual background is that I am initiated into a classical shakta TK lineage.
And so it's all part of the wider yoga tradition. But, and I have a guru, which is a whole thing. Um, but I wanted to share that, um, it's a really, really, really important practice in actual classical tantra to be very private about it. [01:26:00] And part of the reason why is actually, it goes back to the way that Tantra manifests in India as opposed to in the West, which is a completely different manifestation where, um, because of the transgressive nature of tundra historically, um, the average person in India is very secretive about being a tre.
Kyley: Hmm.
Hannah: And so there's this saying that people are outwardly veic and inwardly t trick outwardly they're doing all of the normal stuff that's acceptable. But in their private practice, they have a ric altar, they're de, they're worshiping trich de eighties, right? And so I didn't realize this until years later when I started studying the tr the history of my tradition.
But it was, uh, kind of almost like an unspoken rule in my sga that you don't talk about your spiritual experiences with anybody but the SGA and the guru. And this is very traditional. That's basic. I mean, it's like, cuz I mean, it's a whole ego practice in itself to, to keep it close.
Kyley: Yeah.
Hannah: And so the first five years that I was [01:27:00] practicing in my tradition, I wouldn't even, I would date people who weren't even necessarily spiritual.
And they knew that I would go to a meditation center. I would like say, oh, I'm going to the ashram tonight. But I would never talk. Any of the experiences that I was having, any of these things, because it was so conditioned into me that we want to demonstrate what we are experiencing. want to allow what we are experiencing to interpenetrate our being and shift our conduct.
When you really start to feel like, whoa, God is everything in different ways, you have tastes of it, God's always giving us taste so that we begin to crave her. It's like, you know, that is ideally supposed to be having a beneficial effect on the way that we're acting in our life. And when the teacher, the tradition gives us teachings, we have to live them.
We don't just have to talk about them. We have to actually try to live what we're learning. And so being private about our spiritual reality is actually, I think a [01:28:00] practice that most Western people should be taking more serious.
Eva: Hmm.
Hannah: Because I think it can become, it's a, it can become the spiritual materialism where our identity becomes being the spiritual person, and our actions are not reflecting that.
This is related to the relationship thing. But yeah.
So to kind of conclude what I'm saying about how I was very private, about my spiritual process for the first like five years, um, there's, I think that we don't, there's this really interesting thing where my, okay, this is how, the way that I wanna put it, my spiritual path is my.
Kyley: Hmm.
Hannah: It's my business. Okay? And I don't mean this in this like rugged, individualist way.
I mean like, it's like I'm on my own path to remember God and what people outside of me are doing actually don't have very much to do with that because my [01:29:00] process is to engage with life in a way that's supportive of my remembrance. And so there's so many different pieces to what that actually is, and that's the reason why it's called it a spiritual process because there are things that we have to do, but it's like, ultimately at the end of the day, I almost feel like the esoteric truth is that I, I am almost like the main character in a way, but it's, it, it's only in the sense that I am, God created my incarnation so that she could pass me through my labyrinth.
And it's all what I'm doing, what other people are doing actually doesn't matter as much as we think, right?
Eva: Mm-hmm. Yeah.
Hannah: things outside of us, so to speak, that are supportive about remembrance. That's why I was saying it can be beneficial to have a spiritual partner, but you could find a spiritual partner and spend the next 20 years trying to change them. That's not spiritual.
Eva: Yeah, I mean, I think there's, yeah, I think it's, it's, it's subjective and it's hard to say, like you just don't know. You could have a one, you could have a spiritual [01:30:00] partner and have it be messy. You could have like not a spiritual partner and it could be the best gift in the whole world. Do you know what I mean?
Like you just can't generalize. Yeah.
Hannah: Yes.
Eva: But I do love the points that you're talking about, about like, how spiritual can you be without talking about it all the time, which is like, like, it's funny because here, Kylie and I, we, here's, we're on our podcast where we hear are like, you know, always talking about spirituality.
But I, but I, I hear you on that, Hannah. I think it's actually, yeah, something that I've been thinking about this past year
Hannah: Oh totally.
Eva: and um, it's also given me some great grace around, it's, it's given me grace around some of the friendships that I have that like, I consi, I feel like I'm such a spiritual person, but I have people in my life who are not, and I think in the beginning that used to be like, oh, similar to what you're saying, Kylie.
I think about how like, I was like, I wish I could talk to my people about these things. And over the years I've just gotten and been like, no, these friendships are great and I have the podcast and Kylie and my other like, you know, spiritual friends who I, [01:31:00] who can fill that role. But it's also like, I don't, it's just not that important.
Like I think it depends on where you are in the phase of your life, because sometimes you really do need that community too, if you're really isolated.
Hannah: Well that's the reason why there's the
Eva: Yeah.
Hannah: but most people don't have access to the sunga.
Eva: Mm-hmm.
Hannah: But it's, I also think that it's a, so like that whole thing, like I wish I could talk to people about those things. I, you can develop a skill to still talk about these things without talking.
Eva: Mm-hmm. Yeah.
Hannah: I do this all the time. I don't want anyone to know that I'm spiritual.
I don't make myself look like a spiritual person. I'm very like kind of hardcore about that. I don't wanna look like a yogi, whatever the fuck that means. Right? And so, you know, I actually think it can be a skill to talk about these deeper truths with people in a way that's not proselytizing.
Eva: Right. Or not
Hannah: weekend I have
Eva: Oh, sorry. I was saying it's not, it's also, it's not talking, but what you said earlier too, about just like your being, it's just how you, your [01:32:00] actions and your being and how you are.
Kyley: Yeah.
Eva: Yeah, but I'm sorry, I cut you off.
Hannah: Oh, no, no, no. I mean, I was just gonna say like most of. I think because I was so hardcore about how, like, I don't need to talk about my spiritual process with other people. Like most of my friends are not like spiritual people. And I think a lot of people who follow me would be surprised by that because we, we've, it's obviously there's value in that, but it's like, I, like, for instance, like this past weekend, I have two friends who I'm pretty sure are just like agnostic and, and, um, one of them has a grandma who's starting to kind of go downhill and like, she has all these, like, when people age, sometimes our real personality traits come out in a way I hope that makes sense.
And she's getting kind of like hard to deal with. And, um, basically I have all sorts of spiritual ideas about what's going on with that. But, but the, the way I kind of was having the conversation with them was I was like, yeah, I think that, [01:33:00] you know, In our culture, there's not a lot of emphasis on letting go and dying is ultimately a letting go process.
And so maybe she's getting more kind of ornery because she never learned how to loosen her grip. That's not a very spiritual thing that I'm saying, but it actually is.
Kyley: Yeah,
Hannah: You see what I'm saying?
Kyley: absolutely.
Hannah: So you can still kind of have these conversations with people without being like, well, the Pat potentially Yoga Sutra says, you know, you don't have to do that.
If it's really integrated, you don't have to do that
Kyley: Yes.
Eva: Yeah. Yeah.
Hannah: anyway.
Kyley: Um, I, I love what you're saying because, uh, I think it's about, Like embodied wisdom versus spoken knowledge. Right. And I think the other thing that just clarified for me while you guys were speaking is that one of the reasons I love our show so much and this podcast is such a like sacred corner of my life, I think is because [01:34:00] an addition to like getting to talk to all these super incredible guests like yourself, Eva, I think you and I continue to come to this place, come to this place with a sense of not knowing.
Eva: Mm,
Kyley: I think we keep coming up here with like way more questions than answers. And um, and you know, even the way earlier you
Eva: and also the sense of like, we could change our minds and don't take anything we say too seriously. Like it's all, it's like, it's, it's not, we don't know, you know? We don't, we just don't know.
Kyley: Yeah, it's like a space for messy process and, and not knowing and that being the sacred act and. And actually I feel a little choked up of gra for gratitude that we've made that together. So thanks pal. Thanks for being part of it, Hannah.
Hannah: so cool. That's so cool. I love it.
Kyley: Yeah, yeah. Um, okay. We could, uh, continue to talk for hours and, uh, shall we go do a round of joy?
Hannah: Yeah.
Kyley: [01:35:00] Hi. You wanna share something that's bringing you joy right now?
Hannah: So, um, I mentioned this before we really started recording that. I just bought a car. Okay. And honestly, that is bringing me joy and I that probably doesn't sound, oh, you know, it's a physical object. Money can't buy you happiness. Actually, this car has bought me a lot of happiness. I'm not gonna lie.
Eva: I would say that should totally bring you, that can totally bring you joy. Yeah. No shade.
Hannah: But it's actually like, it's a, it's it. There are, there's always, I'm, I'm so aggressively, the way I put it is like, I'm aggressively integral where it's like the, this life that I'm living is my spiritual path in a lot of ways. And the reason why this car is bringing me so much joy is because for the last four years I've been driving a 1993 Ford Ranger.
Okay. And I had it because I used to have a landscaping business that's part of my lore. [01:36:00] Okay. I used to be a professional gardener before I started doing whatever the heck I'm doing now. And, and, um, it served its purpose with me, but it was a shitty old fucking car. And every time I would drive it for more than an hour, it would literally punish me.
It would be like, how dare you run this engine? For more than an hour. And I live in the Boulder Denver area, right up against the mountains. And honestly for the last four years I felt trapped. I live in Boulder and the mountains are right there and I'm too afraid to drive into them. And I live in this state for a reason, right?
Eva: Yeah.
Hannah: And so I have experienced incredible joy buying this new car. Not only because I can drive into the mountains, but also because it's a camper technically.
Kyley: Ooh.
Hannah: So I want to spend, and this is related to what I said at the beginning of the call, I wanna spend a lot more time this year fasting my mind in the [01:37:00] woods by myself, just in my car with the camper.
Eva: Yeah,
Kyley: Oh.
Hannah: So that actually is bringing me incredible joy. And my body is receive, is experiencing a lot of ease when I drive it. Because every time I would get in my car for four years, I was like, this might be it.
Kyley: Oh
Eva: I know.
Hannah: This might be my last day on Earth. It's stressful.
Eva: stressful. Yeah. I mean, honestly, I celebrate your joy with you. If anything, that can bring you out into nature and also bring you a sense of like safety and security and ease and comfort. Like that is every reason to feel joyful.
Hannah: Yes. No. Yes. So my car is bringing me incredible joy
Eva: Yay. I love that.
Hannah: Yeah.
Kyley: love that.
Eva: Kylie, do you wanna go next or you want me to go
Kyley: Yeah. I'll go. Um, my kids' ages is bringing me joy.
Eva: wait your kid's ages, like the age they are?
Kyley: Yes. They're ages. Yes. So Desi is six, birdie is just turned four. [01:38:00] And we've reached this point where they're not little babies and there's a kind. Autonomy that I'm watching, like takes shape within our house. So on Friday, uh, we, my kid, my, you know, my husband went into the office. I didn't, I don't work on Fridays for the most part.
And we spent the day just fucking lounging at the house. And I read my book at one point, my son, who just has learned to read, sat on in my lap, essentially, he's like 55 pounds. So, you know, he was like cuddling slash crushing me for, I don't know, maybe two hours. He read himself a graphic novel chapter book cover to cover, um, while I read my book and my daughter did this like tracing book and then she like played with stuffed animals or something for hours.
We were all like together alone and just so content and so chill and so joyful in the quietest little way and, ugh. [01:39:00] To your point earlier about like, you know, like rest, it felt like, oh, like my whole family, like we, we have, we have arrived at a certain, like we have graduated to a certain level of,
Hannah: it.
Kyley: oh my God, it just made me so happy.
Um, and
Eva: can I just say I've been like waiting for this for you? Meaning like, you know, as your friend who's observed the, um, you know, the attention and time and energy it requires to have two small kids. Uh, I've also known that at some point you would, you, you, you're, you all would all, you know, inevitably arrive at this point where they would become a little bit more independent.
And I've always been like, oh, that's gonna be interesting when that ha like, that's gonna be cool. Like, cuz I, I've seen it with other friends where you're so in it taking care of your kids and that's just, just like all, you know. And then one day, you know, seeing it with my brother and sister-in-law, it's like, oh, like, they're starting to like, take better care of themselves now because, or they're kept, they're, they're sleeping more now.
You can tell they're just a little [01:40:00] bit more, um, yeah. Alert. Oh, it's because their kids are older and they just, it, it just naturally, gradually, organically happens that like live life becomes a more little bit more useful. And I was like, that's gonna be your experience and I'm looking forward to it for you when it is.
And it's gonna come with its slew of other emotions too, though. Both like your kids growing up, but,
Kyley: But I, yeah, and I think,
Eva: Yeah.
Kyley: and I, and I love in particular the. Getting to experience it with them, because I think that the story for me a little bit was like, oh yeah, cuz they go to school or they have activities, right? That it's like the autonomy is also sep, like is a, is a distance, which is also part of motherhood, right?
Like you're raising them to, to go and be out in the world. But I think what I got to experience on Friday, and I'm witnessing in other ways, is like there's, there's a, there's an autonomy that's actually allowing us to be together in a new way and that I hadn't fully seen coming. And I, and also now that here, I'm like, oh yeah, of course.
And so I'm just [01:41:00] really, um, relishing this chapter of motherhood.
Eva: Yay. I'm
Hannah: That's be.
Kyley: Thank you. Thank you. How about you? My.
Eva: Um, my joy this week is going to the green belt in Austin, Texas. So, Hannah, I just moved to Austin a month and a half ago, and part of the appeal was, I'm living on this land now and I'm, what I notice is that like I'm tending to the land more and I'm outside. My feet are in the grass every day. Like, I'm like, oh, this is what I wanted, but what's been a mind fuck is I've been outside more, but in the wild less, and I didn't, I only just realized that, that there's a huge difference.
Like, I'm like, oh wait, this is, I was like, cuz something feels like it's missing. Like I feel like I'm outside and in the grass, in the trees every day, but what am I missing? I'm like, oh, I miss my fucking hikes. Like, that's my God right there. It's like going out there and being, moving my [01:42:00] body and like the big sky and all that.
Like, I was like, that is like I really need, and I haven't done that at all. So yesterday, um, it was kind of a surprise to me actually that I had that it just, you know, you know, I've been busy, I've been moving and. It was just like this big screaming thing that my body was like, you need to get out there and like enter the wild and like hike and the green belt isn't the wild, but it's this beautiful like never ending thing in the middle of a city where you're just like, it's swamp too.
It's exciting. I'm like learning about new, you know, land. It's, it's totally different from the desert and totally different from the Pacific Northwest where I moved from. It's swampy and wet and humid and I like it. And so that is my joy. Just that like I got myself out there and that there's this access to nature so close to my house.
And that's very joyful.
Hannah: Beautiful.
Eva: Yeah. Yeah.
Hannah: Beautiful.
Eva: rocked. Um,
Hannah: Okay,
Eva: where can people find you, Hannah? How can they work [01:43:00] with you?
Hannah: so I have two Instagrams. I actually have more Instagrams than that, but this is just the reality that we live in right now. And I have one where I mostly just, um, share my slightly unhinged and un and unfiltered thoughts, which is organic abundance, and I share memes about spiritual themes. Um, and then I have
Eva: and I love memes. So you're speak memes are our language here.
Hannah: No, I, I actually think memes have, uh, There's like esoteric wisdom,
Kyley: Oh.
Hannah: um, I mean, that's a whole other topic. And then that's like just for fun. I feel like that's like a place where you can like get to know my personality or something. But then I have this other page called the Spiritual Process on Instagram, which is where I more directly talk about like the ways that I actively help [01:44:00] people.
And so, um, the thing, the, the things that I do are mentorship, where I work one-on-one with people over the course of a few months to basically deepen their experience and service to God in a nutshell. Um, and then I also give a talk every week about some sort of a spiritual topic that is relevant to modern life.
Okay. And then I give, uh, maybe like once a month or every two months, I do a big class. That's like separate from my weekly talks cuz the talks are a membership based. And then I'll do like a big course. And so actually at the end of this month I'm teaching, I'm reteaching something called Grace 1 0 1, which is like, um, in the coaching world, they would say it's my signature course because it's really like the heart of everything that I talk about.[01:45:00]
And that course is basically about kind of building a relationship to the fact that there's this aspect of reality in our life that's trying to awaken us to God and we don't actually have to do as much as we think. That's the concept of grace is like there's this force at work in reality that's trying to awaken us to the imminence of God, and we have to learn how to kind of work with it instead of thinking it's all on us to awaken.
That's what a lot of people think. It's all their own self effort, but really there's something more going on. And so that's like the big thing that I'm teaching this month. And then the relationship thing I mentioned earlier. Um, but yeah, those are like, that's like, that's how you, my website's Hana williams.com.
H a n n a. My dad bought me that domain name in like 2003.
Kyley: Oh my gosh. Great work, dad.
Eva: I know.
Hannah: know he was really forward thinking. Yeah. Um, so
Kyley: still had a, yeah, [01:46:00] I think I got my first cell phone in 2003. Like, great work, dad,
Hannah: I know he was really thinking ahead, thinking ahead.
Kyley: Oh
Hannah: Oh, that's it. Basically. I don't work with, man, I have an Etsy. I sell clothes. I'm also an artist that's like a whole other thing.
Kyley: Oh my gosh. Well, next time come back and talk about, uh, art and creative
Hannah: Oh
Kyley: the esoteric
Hannah: yeah. Oh, that's a whole
Eva: I wanna talk
Kyley: And gurus.
Eva: Yeah.
Hannah: oh my God. Yeah. No, there's plenty more. I'd be happy to be invited back if you ever
Kyley: Amazing. Amazing. Thank you so much.
Hannah: thank you.
Eva: Yeah, this is great.