In this episode, Alicia Nelson shares her story of leaving strict fundamentalism, reconnecting with her Jewish heritage, and finding her home in paganism and witchcraft.
In this episode, Alicia Nelson shares her story of leaving strict fundamentalism, reconnecting with her Jewish heritage, and finding her home in paganism and witchcraft.
Alicia - https://www.instagram.com/mycelticroots
Love is the power, Brazil
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Kyley: [00:00:00] Welcome back to Hello Universe, everybody. It's Kyley. I'm so happy to have you here. We are still at Sans Eva for a few more weeks. Although she's scheduled, we have it on the books. First week of February, she'll be back. So get excited for that. In the meantime, get excited for today's guest. I'm so excited about this interview.
Kyley: Before I jump in, To tell you, introduce this guest to you and have what I'm sure will be a meandering and rich and very delicious conversation. Um, I want to tell you about two things. One, [00:01:00] uh, Eva's retreat is open now in Brazil in March. And, uh, I think everybody should run as fast as possible to go, uh, soak up.
Kyley: The power of love magic in the jungle of Brazil. Like who does not want to be there? I would like to be there as I always share it's birdies birthday week. So that's the only reason I'm not there. Um, but, but that is open now. So please take a peek at that. Um, I have known people who went last year and just had incredible things to say about it.
Kyley: And I have Villanera, which if you've been a podcast listener for a while, you know, enter your Villanera. Is one of my favorite programs and it's all about unhooking from fawning, people pleasing, self abandonment, and like living more deliciously. So you can sign up in the comments. All that being said, today's guest is one of my Dearest [00:02:00] friends, and truly an example of the universe doing miraculous things in your life and giving you the people that you need and the places that you need them.
Kyley: And we are forever having just juicy, lively conversations. In some ways, the podcast was actually part of the, like, connective tissue between us in the first place. So it feels very extra special to have you here. Um, and so, Without further ado, someone who always holds my heart in the tenderest ways and has delicious reflections on life and shares her beautiful heart so vulnerably, Alicia Nelson.
Kyley: Eww,
Alicia: I'm so excited to be here.
Kyley: Yeah, I'm so happy to have you here. Okay, you know, you know the drill, you know our first question. What, my beloved friend, is life teaching you right now?
Ooh.
Kyley: Despite knowing it's coming, one can never really be prepared. [00:03:00]
Alicia: Um, I think I'm going to steal from a conversation we had just a few minutes ago and and say that, um, crying can't be rushed is my is going to be my, um, what the universe is teaching me right now, because there I don't know if you want me to elaborate,
Kyley: but yeah, go for it.
Kyley: You can tell the backstory. Okay.
Alicia: Um, so. This phrase, actually, I had said this earlier in the day and then got to recycle it. Um, Oh, I love that when
Kyley: you've got it, when you go to real jam and you're like,
Alicia: but now my back pocket for it's like old material. Um, but there've been a lot of tears in my house in the last 48 hours in particular, and.
Alicia: Like we just had to let them flow it sometimes it just you need to let it out and, um, and I'm actually I [00:04:00] don't even like saying sometimes I think all the time like if those tears are trying to come, let's, let's let them, and you can't rush, how fast they go away either. Yeah, and that's okay. Yeah.
Kyley: Oh, I mean, this feels very, very apt and, and that's the kind of the backstory listeners that I had to text Alicia because I assume bedtime shenanigans are shenaniganing because we had to push the start start record because birdie was having a hard time going to sleep.
Kyley: And then I was like, oh, and now there are tears. And Alicia just said, well, tears can't be rushed. And I felt, well, that's our whole episode right there. Um, in, in particular. I think one of the things that you and I have like arm and arm walked or walked each other through and often are reflecting back is like the process of evolving, healing, letting yourself, you know, love all those [00:05:00] crooked, cracked, wounded parts.
Kyley: Sometimes it takes longer than you fucking wanted to take and it's not really up to you. And in some ways, I think for me, that is.
Kyley: That is the thing that I'm really shit at. Like, I think I'm a pretty good, like, you know, no, make no thing wrong. Be compassionate, love your monsters. And also I have a top fucking timeline for loving my monsters. Thank you very much.
Alicia: Absolutely. I wrote down a couple of notes that I didn't want to forget tonight, because I know.
Alicia: When, when I get going, um, the ADHD kicks in sometimes,
Kyley: we have no, we have no one knows where this conversation is going to go. It won't be linear. I can promise that.
Alicia: Oh, no, for sure. Um, but I wrote and I don't even know, like, I had written down tears can't be rushed and then this. Thought just was like popcorn in my [00:06:00] brain.
Alicia: I was like, Oh, I better write that down too. And it feels appropriate now. Um, I wrote resilience is gross because I feel like I've had so many times. Like people have said to me, Oh, you're so resilient. And Oh, you know, you, you're going through all this and we wouldn't even know. And looking back now in hindsight, Ew, like I, I don't want the mess to be pretty.
Alicia: I don't want the recovery and the getting through it to be easy breezy from the outside world, because that's certainly not what's going on inside.
Kyley: And so it was just, Yeah. You're making me think about how, like, this was a couple of years ago, but I had the realization that I totally expected myself to like, I gave myself permission to grieve or be messy or be emotional, but always in private.
Kyley: It [00:07:00] was like, I will go away from the pack, process, grieve, you know, you know, be messy, be wounded. And then I will come back and like tell my recovery story. Um, but you can't, it was really, I mean, one was I think a vulnerability thing, but also like you can't burden people with your like inappropriate, not having your shit together ness.
Kyley: Um, and, um, yeah. And so I, I, I like, I like what you're saying that actually that experience, Oh, you're going through so much and no one would even know that's probably not actually a great sign. Yeah. Yeah,
Kyley: which doesn't mean we have to like, let, we don't owe everybody all of our vulnerability, but if your expectation is, yeah, yeah,
Alicia: yeah, definitely not. And when you were just saying that I was thinking obviously like boundaries are huge. Like just such that's [00:08:00] become such a big thing in my world. And I know a lot of other people, um, but like having boundaries with who gets to see the mess, because no, I don't want everyone, um, to see the most vulnerable parts from a protection standpoint.
Alicia: Um, but also the flip side of that coin is that I don't want to get so good at performing and hiding that. That it's always kept in, we need, we need that community of people around us that we can be, um, vulnerable and messy with. Unhinged, you might even say.
Kyley: Absolutely. This is catchphrase. Everybody's unhinged.
Kyley: Yeah. Um, it's, it's funny, it's also make, you were just making me think about how, okay. Walk with me for a second, but how our vulnerability actually, our willingness to be messy can be its own kind of [00:09:00] boundary. And I'm thinking about when I had my corporate, my last corporate job, um, when I was a sales director and I got that job pregnant with birdie.
Kyley: Um, and so, you know, early on, I was, you know, postpartum and I was having the emotionally intense experience that is postpartum and I, and they were great. Like they ended up firing me and like, we ended up, we ended down in the best terms, but there were ways in which they were really remarkable. And they let me bring in birdie to work all the time.
Kyley: And like, I would just work. I worked this corporate job as a sales director, baby wearing for like months. It was very cool. Um, but I. Realized how much I'd hit a capacity like I just in in the in the throes of postpartum I did not actually have the capacity to commute into work even though they were letting me bring my baby Which is pretty fucking cool.
Kyley: And I remember going into my boss and saying Like hey I am not Doing as great as I would like to be doing and I don't have the capacity to come into this office every day He was great. He was like, okay like work [00:10:00] from home. Keep us posted That was a moment where I set a boundary So that I could be right.
Kyley: It wasn't like, I'm going to come into your office crying, but, but like my shit is, I don't, you're not a person with whom I'm going to share my bloody beating heart, and also I can be vulnerable enough to set a boundary, state my needs. Um, anyway, I never thought about the like vulnerability piece and boundaries before.
Kyley: Do you know what I'm trying to say?
Alicia: Yeah. Yeah, absolutely. And you had to, you had to get there with yourself first. Because you had to even admit to yourself that you needed to take this step and then in doing that you gave yourself permission to be vulnerable enough to say, Hey, this is where I am.
Alicia: I made that sound because I'm
Kyley: in another one of those right now.[00:11:00]
Kyley: The, I made that sound because I'm, I am watching how I'm in a moment. We've been talking about overwhelm and my experience with overwhelm on the podcast. And I am watching how much I keep, I think I keep doing less. And then life is like, you're still doing too much.
Kyley: Okay. I have a question for you. I think we might, we might, they'll, this might bring us back. Okay. I have a question for you. So when, when we were chatting about different directions we could go, one of the things we were talking about is like path of the long winding road that is recovering from trauma, right?
Kyley: And could I just ask you to share Your perception of what that path looks like and feels like.
Alicia: What's immediately coming to mind is, is how you mentioned earlier that, um, this may go in multiple directions. [00:12:00] And I'm just, I keep picturing a roller coaster and, and I'm picturing like the, the old fashioned kind where it's, I think a lot of them were wooden and there aren't any loops, but it's just a lot of peaks and valleys, peaks and valleys.
Alicia: And some of those peaks are really stinking high, and some of those valleys like look like they're just going to bottom out. Um, but it still holds you. And I feel like my, my personal journey with, um, healing from, and, and I wouldn't even, I wish there was another word to use because I don't feel like I am fully healed or that I ever will be.
Alicia: Yeah. Um, but in that process of healing, um, I don't feel like the roller coaster is going in a circle anymore. It's definitely, it's meandering onto new paths. [00:13:00] And that's growth in and of itself.
Kyley: Oh yeah. I like this. Like that there's, there's parts of the journey that feel like really fucking intense, right?
Kyley: You know, firsthand and listeners know, like last year when I went through my breakup, like those, those were some, those were some steep declines and. Um, that there is a way in which. Over time, the, um, the ebbs and flows, there's a gentleness to them. And I think what's interesting to play with paradox is that I think sometimes when I'm in the I think sometimes the gentleness of the ebbs and flows sometimes is not necessarily that they're less intense.
Kyley: It's just that I know, I, I, I like understand my own experience on the ride differently. Right. So the same, like the emotions might be really intense. I might still like cry a whole bunch of whatever, but there's like more compassion and [00:14:00] ease in it. And then other times it's also like, Oh, I just don't react as intensely to this.
Kyley: And so it's, it's a little, it's a little like rolling Meadows vibe. Yeah, you're also making me think there's a, uh, there's a roller coaster in New Hampshire, uh, called Yankee Cannonball that is like one of the oldest wooden roller coasters in the United States. I don't know if you've been yet, but you should go.
Kyley: Um, and it was my first roller coaster and I insisted I took Desi on it. A couple years ago. Oh my God, he was scared shitless. He now like has come around and like really likes roller coasters, but oh my God, he was so scared and it's like kind of a long roller coaster. So like that first big drop, he just was like, Oh my God, no, no, no, no.
Kyley: And then we just had this, no, it's nothing to do. We just had to fucking ride it out. Right. Me whispering, it's just gonna be okay. It's gonna be okay. It's gonna be, it's okay.
Kyley: You know what? I think that's also not metaphor for this experience of like the healing journey, because [00:15:00] like, You don't get to opt out.
Alicia: No, not at all. Once you're buckled in, that ride's not stopping. It's
Kyley: very relentless sometimes. And not even without, not necessarily without pleasure, but it's just like this experience of being someone tends to their heart.
Kyley: Like, I don't think once you answer that call, I don't think you get to like later put the phone down. Yeah.
Alicia: Yeah.
Kyley: Yeah.
Alicia: Or if you try, you'll cause even more heartache for yourself.
Kyley: Yeah. Okay, I have a question for you. There's a little bit of a pivot, but I think all things weave together. I. Think you are someone who has a really rich devotional practice, spirit and goddess connection and magic. They're [00:16:00] really beautifully woven through your life.
Kyley: Um, And I would just love to invite you to share a little bit about what that experience looks like for you, because, and part of the reason why I asked you is because I think we are collectively hungry to intimately understand like worship and devotion and spiritual connection outside of traditional religious structures that a lot of us, you know, don't, don't belong to for various reasons.
Kyley: And I think there's something just really beautiful in. And just hearing what someone's rich spiritual life looks like,
Alicia: I would love to share. And also don't think I can even begin to, um, define it or explain it unless I give just a little cliff notes version of my background.
Kyley: Oh yeah. We're here for the tea. Tell us all about the tea. [00:17:00]
Alicia: Because this, that's definitely informed where I am today. And, um, I actually, I posted the most lengthy, most vulnerable post I've ever done on social media, um, yesterday, and it was.
Alicia: Basically, 10 slides of me explaining what I, I guess I'm about to explain now. Um, but I come from a very, um, very domineering legalistic, um, very fundamentalist background and being being raised in that environment.
Alicia: I think in order for me to most effectively share where my practice is today, I have to give a little bit of background first. Um, I was raised in [00:18:00] what is recognized now by many people, um, to be a cult. It was, um, very dogmatic, fundamentalist, Christian. Um, I was homeschooled most of my. Education. Um, so all you can fill in between the lines there.
Alicia: And I was. In that environment, devotion and worship, because that word, I still, like, have, um, a soft place in my heart for that word, um, those things were very much fear driven, and in order for you to be truly devoted, then you were scared of hell, and you were scared of, of, you know, Not only of that, like after death, um, persecution, but also like [00:19:00] during life, you were so scared of not being respectful enough and not honoring your elders enough and, and just, and I very much still to this day, I'm, I'm a recovering people pleaser.
Alicia: I wanted to please, I wanted to be devoted. I wanted to show my devotion. I wanted to show that I, I was worthy. And that led to 35 years of fear based allegiance to something that I now know not to be true. And once I got to that point and realized, whoa, And just for further context, um, my big awakening was when I was 35, I'm going to ask you about that.
Alicia: Yeah. And, um, it [00:20:00] started a few years before that. And I would actually say, it's going to crack me up because I've never, I've never. Dumb the math out loud. Um, but I was 33 when I realized, um, that perhaps what I had been taught my whole life. And, and this is of course, the other side note, we did warn you that this would rabbit trail, um, that not only had I not been told the truth about the world, but I'd not been told the truth about.
Alicia: The country that I live in and, um, the role that I come from a long line of, um, very proud veterans. And, um, that also was another, like, just realizing once you start to see the illusion of America for what it is and the illusion of religion for what it [00:21:00] is, that shakes the foundations of everything. You look at everything else differently.
Alicia: So from 33,
Kyley: can I ask a question? I mean, first of all, I just want to pause and acknowledge how much, uh, how terrible and terrifying it is to lose your, to like, lose your foundation. Right? And so looking at, looking at, you know, fundamentals of an extremism in America, like, yeah, yeah, no one wants to lose their foundation.
Kyley: Foundation. Um, especially when you don't know what goes in its place, right? There's a moment when you got to let go of your shit, your stories, your whatever, and you don't know what's going in its place yet. So there's this like leap of faith. Um, Um, but my, the question I want to ask is, um, kind of what the cracks in the fissure, like for you, right?
Kyley: Because before there's a moment of like real rupture and like the, Oh shit, I can't go back. I [00:22:00] think there's always a couple of like cracks that show up and I'm curious about those, and I'm also kind of curious about how your. Reaction to those was
Alicia: I am so glad you asked me that and I'm like, I'm excited inside and I'm also like about to burst into tears.
Alicia: Um, because just now when you were starting to ask me the question, I didn't know where your question was going. I wrote down a name and, um, because she was the person. That was like, I, I can almost picture her, um, with like a chisel and a hammer and like the first, the first tweet, this was back when we still had Twitter.
Alicia: Um, the very first tweet I ever read of her was like that first hit at the top of the, um, at the top of the, the nail. And, um, [00:23:00] that's wow. Um, I'm not going to apologize.
Alicia: I was super active on Twitter back then. Um, I was, I was a elementary educator and, um, most of what I did on Twitter was activism and, um, and about students and, and my craft as a teacher. And I also started following some religious accounts and I found one day And and I know that it was not a coincidence.
Alicia: It wasn't just by chance. Um, but I found an incredible woman named Rachel held Evans and I found her, um, right shortly before her struggle with cancer. And so, [00:24:00] as she was going through her, her cancer struggle, which. She did lose. I was going through my deconditioning journey and the way she talked about love.
Alicia: Um, and about God as love was just the most beautiful and, um, heart melting thing I'd ever heard. And I, I. Friends, I was in the church my entire life. We were there three times a week, every single week. I heard so thousands and thousands of sermons in my life and the things that Rachel was sharing. I had never heard framed that way before.
Alicia: And as she shared about her faith. She [00:25:00] also shared about bringing in the widow and bringing in the poor and bringing in the queer and bringing in the Muslim and bringing in everyone, everyone. And not in that sense of, Oh, our doors are open to everyone so we can change them. But this real raw truth and love Because we just accept them, not that we expect them to be anything different or or act a certain way.
Alicia: And that was revolutionary for me. I had never considered that. We could, instead of protesting in front of an abortion clinic, actually go in and hold a woman's hand if she was by herself, and just needed someone to witness [00:26:00] her in that moment. I never considered that instead of a gay person coming in, We weren't trying to convert them or fix them, but we were instead asking to meet their partner and sitting down for a meal together.
Alicia: It was a complete shift of the paradigm, and it sounds so deeply ridiculous. Ridiculous to me now, knowing what my life is like now. Which for listeners,
Kyley: please know that Alicia has like the queerest, witchiest household of them all. You know, all pagan, all queer, all like radically delicious.
Alicia: And, and, Oh my gosh, I just realized and I am 43 years old.
Alicia: So that was 10 years ago. So a decade later, a decade [00:27:00] after meeting Rachel held Evans via Twitter. And I do know that she, she knew I existed because she liked some of my comments and, and chatted back and forth with me a couple of times. So I feel really special about that. Um, but that shook me to my core.
Alicia: learning from her and it's amazing to me now like in this age of social media that like it took something like twitter for me for me to shift my and obviously a lot of other things happened and and that was the first crack yeah but that was the first crack and i
Kyley: i love so much that the first crack was love right because i think a lot of people have a story where they left You know, religious fundamentalism, or even, you know, I was Catholic.
Kyley: So different, you know, [00:28:00] level of intensity, but, you know, um, I mean, you can be fundamentalist Catholic. I just wasn't, um, but like, I think, I think there's a lot of people who leave because they start to perceive the harm that they're experiencing, right. Which is a very valid reason for leaving. Like, wait a minute, this doesn't feel good or right.
Kyley: And I am so. I really relish that the first crack for you was this actually much deeper, richer model of love and the like resonance of truth that you understood in that, that therefore then threw everything else into question. That's, that's pretty great. Yeah,
Alicia: yeah, it really is. And I'm, I'm super thankful for that in hindsight, because, you know, I had been, um, I had firsthand knowledge, um, from a young age of [00:29:00] people that I personally knew who went through conversion therapy.
Alicia: And. The stain of that. I, I, I carried like the weight and the ick of that for many, many years. Um, and so for her to have such a different perspective, um, and, and to share it in love, I saw her debate. Um, and this is when one of the big cracks happened for me. Um, I watched her. Debate someone who was one of my dearest, dearest friends in the whole world, um, who is no longer in my life because.
Alicia: Of what our lives look like now, um, get into a philosophical debate with her on Twitter and was truly baiting for, you know, uh, a dramatic response from [00:30:00] her and the way she handled that with the most beautiful and most gentle grace, but
yet
Alicia: she was so firmed and, and unyielding. And her stance. I was so floored by that.
Alicia: And, and that's one of the things to this day that I still, I endeavor to have that level of awareness and that level of, of empathy and grace, because I'll tell you, having come from that environment, I struggle sometimes now. With having empathy for those who are still in it, because I know how deep it goes.
Alicia: And I know, I don't think that's true. It's not that I lack empathy. It's that I lack patience.
Kyley: Oh, that's fair.
Alicia: [00:31:00] Because, because I can, I can feel it. Like even just talking to you right now, I'm having like a somatic response because I can, I can feel how Deeply frustrating and, um, and impossible. It felt when I was in that lifestyle.
Alicia: You were never good enough. You were never strong enough. You were never pure enough. There, there was always, the bar was constantly being moved and I know it doesn't have to be that way. I, I wish, I wish that I could go in and I literally wish that I could like go in and rewire some synapses in their brains because I truly, and this is another aspect.
Alicia: Um, I was also for the first time in my life attending therapy that was not [00:32:00] Um, religious based and I had been in years of therapy, um, up to that point, but it was always, it was always through the church or through a very specific, um, like school of, of counseling. Yeah. Yeah. And, um, and for the first time in my life, I was.
Alicia: Going to secular therapy, and I think the combination of the secular therapy and, um, the time that I was spending researching the things because I, I'm a big researcher just because someone says it does not mean I'm going to believe it. So, all these things she was sharing, I. I really had to dig deep because I already had the years and years and years of Bible training.
Alicia: I already went, I went to Bible college. I, I knew, know that book front, back and center. So the [00:33:00] things that she was saying were so radically different and I had, I had to go back and be like, wait, wait, where, where did it get shifted just that much that it became what controlled my whole life and my whole family's lives and the lives of so many others.
Alicia: Um, can I ask a follow up, can I interject
Kyley: with a question? When you were younger, kind of, so before this, like. Was there any part of you who did have questions that you just pushed aside or was, and, and I don't want to make this right or wrong, like, right. I'm just like really curious. Like how much was it just like hook, line and sinker?
Kyley: Like my whole world is built to show me something and I'm buying it. Like Truman, like the Truman show. Right. Versus, were there moments that in retrospect you could see was the doubting you that you just didn't engage with?
Alicia: I absolutely love this question. [00:34:00] And I'm laughing because, um, what I'm about to share just makes the story.
Alicia: Even more absurd. Um, so you throw on top of all of that, the fact that, um, when I was about 12, 12, 13 ish, um, my father was doing some genealogy. And he found out that we were actually in fact Jewish and that the last, you know, few generations had chosen. And that happened. So that happened so much, um, especially around the time of the Holocaust and directly after so many Jewish people who were seeking, um, safety and refuge in other places.
Alicia: would hide their Jewishness. So it's not a huge surprise that, you know, it wasn't something that was well known. Um, so he started [00:35:00] diving into that part of our heritage and, and realizing how close and deep it went. And. So here I was going, wait a minute, this over here, because again, huge reader, we were all big readers.
Alicia: I was raised to be a reader and then still a voracious reader. Um, I started reading these books about Judaism. And I was like, oh, some of this isn't adding up and that really, um, I really, if, if I'm honest with myself, the first cracks were back then,
because
Alicia: I started, I took Hebrew. I took two years of, um, Hebrew and it was part biblical Hebrew and part conversational modern Hebrew.
Alicia: And I'm studying the original words and I'm like, wait. [00:36:00] And that was one of the things that when I found Rachel held Evans was so amazing because she also had done a deep dive into biblical languages. So so a lot of what she shared was through that perspective. And I am so thankful now. For that foundation, because I'm able to see the richness and see the beauty and so much of scripture that I'm actually starting to fall in love with again.
Alicia: Ooh,
Kyley: okay. I have, I have a question for that. And I also just want to anecdotally share. I took a class when I was in grad school. I went to Brandeis University for grad school, and they were part of like, you could, you could take classes at other schools. There was like part of a program and I got to take a class at Harvard Divinity School, which was like, So fucking cool.
Kyley: And I took it with this incredible woman named Karen King. She wrote, um, she's like, is the translator [00:37:00] of the gospel of Mary Magdalene. That's one of the most common texts. She's brilliant. And, uh, another woman, um, uh, anyways, it was a very, very cool experience. And I just have to say, I just. love, like the etymology, like biblical scholarship.
Kyley: That's just like, let's get into the etymology of this, like one word and all the like Greek and Hebrew and all the different translations. People who really know their shit about this and are steeped in like a generous love based scholarship. Oh, I could just like feed it to me like, you know, waffles.
Kyley: Like it's just
Alicia: Well, it's, it's literally magic.
Kyley: Does scripture Feel does. Script does? Yeah. Does scripture feel alive for you? Does it feel, 'cause I will share again, like different stories, but for me, I find.[00:38:00]
Kyley: Um, I can't, I still can't really engage with a scripted prayer. So, so much of Catholicism, right. It's like, we're going to like you, there's a script you, this is your, you know, you're like the chorus, you know, the, like, you know, it was like, there's lead actors in the play and you are in the chorus and you can say this line that everyone else has to say, we've written it for you.
Kyley: Um, And I've shared this on the show before, but like, there's one line in particular that even at like 12 years old, I was like, I'll come out saying that and it's, um, Lord, I am not worthy to receive you unless you say the word and I shall be healed. And I was like, you, this was your idea. This all, that's a you problem.
Kyley: If I'm not worthy to receive you. But anyway, so I remember not saying that. But, um, but I still feel like you're talking about your somatoplasm, I can still feel in my body this like icky feeling of like, you cannot tell me what to say, like my worship is my own and I, you know, and I [00:39:00] have friends who have shared with me, like Eva actually once shared with me this book that she loves and was like, oh, this is these beautiful prayers that I love.
Kyley: And I was just like, Ick, I can't, can't read, my evil yeah recommended this book of prayers and I was like can't touch it with a 10 foot pole because I won't say what someone else is telling me to say. Um, and so I am curious. If I'm just curious about your relationship to scripture is now, if it's a thing you can engage with, that you enjoy engaging with and you have such a rich religious or, or like, uh, spiritual practice outside of that.
Kyley: It's not like you're lacking, but I'm curious if that's the thing that is making a comeback.
Alicia: So, uh, I love this question too.
Kyley: Um, I like how much you keep complimenting my questions. That's really, it's really doing well for my ego.
Alicia: They're so exciting. Um, so yes. And I have [00:40:00] found in the last six months in particular.
Alicia: So the timing of this conversation is really interesting because I would have given you a different answer even just six months ago. Um, but I've been. Feeling really drawn to back to my Jewish roots and I all those years of study because after the two years of Hebrew, I did some very, very deep, intensive study for many years.
Alicia: And all of that study, I felt like once I started deconditioning, so at 33 to 35 during that window in particular, I, it all felt. just hot. It felt like hot coals and I wanted them as far away from me as possible. And I just, I, I went like completely, and I think this is what we often do. I [00:41:00] let the pendulum swing completely over, um, to almost an atheistic agnostic perspective of the world.
Alicia: And, um, and that's not something that I still to this day, I, I have. quite an affinity actually with people who hold that view and a lot of it I, um, I still feel like has informed where I am now. Um, but what happened as it does at times is that pendulum has started swinging back, but it's not, um, I don't even like that metaphor per se because While I am coming back to finding joy in some of those things, um, it's not back to the same perspective and the same interpretation.
Alicia: Um, what I found, [00:42:00] and especially when it comes to Hebrew scripture, I have found a very deep devotion and respect for, um, Kabbalah. Um, it has come into my awareness. In multiple ways over the last few years and just, and I haven't even shared this with you, um, just over the winter break, I spent some time, um, I live in Maine, um, but spent most of my life in Virginia and I was back in Virginia for a couple weeks and I was in a metaphysical store.
Alicia: Oh, we do not have enough time in this podcast for me to tell you all the stories.
Kyley: I've got a catalog of four questions already in my head.
Alicia: Um, I was in this metaphysical store, which happened to be the place that, um,
Alicia: Six years ago, [00:43:00] these incredible human beings came into my life, um, through at the time they were at a booth, um, at a thrift store that had, it was, um, a thrift store that has like a lot of community events. And so they had like a community market, um, one day and we just happened to, to go and meet these wonderful women who own Magdalena's in Richmond, Virginia.
Alicia: Um, but they, um, they took so much time with us. And really like mentored us in, in spirituality and like taking those things that were valuable from our past and kind of reimagining what those could mean to us and they really had such a, they were another, um, To people who just had a [00:44:00] pivotal role in and where we are today and where I am today in particular.
Alicia: Okay.
Kyley: Sorry. I have, I have 2 separate questions. 1 is I want to ask you about the. Kabbalah because I've always, I've always just been curious. I know nothing about it other than I can like see the visual of it. So I have questions, um, if we get there, but I will also want to, I want to go back, I want to go back to the, the, the pen, the swinging, right?
Kyley: So you have. This moment of what, you know, where you start reading this woman, uh, this woman's work and it starts to crack this, like, keep seeing this image. Like you're in an, you're in an egg and it's, it's a stone egg where it starts to crack. And then I'm just having this, seeing this image of like you standing up and stretching and re emerging, right.
Kyley: And just being like, Oh wait, I have agency. I can move. And like, I'm going to move all the way over here where I just don't do with any of that shit for a minute. And I'm going to sit in the place of atheism, atheist, agnostic, like At the very least, she's giving me a break, [00:45:00] right? Exactly. And then I'm curious, what, what were the threads that started to pull you back?
Kyley: Again, it's not a, it's not a pendulum swing of like left, right. There's it's, it's a chaos, but it's going all different directions. But what was, what was it? Much like that kind of first crack, were there things that were experiences or moments where something dropped in and you were like, Oh no, shit, this spirit stuff is real.
Alicia: I, okay. So this is going to be a really interesting answer and, and I. Don't think you're prepared for it. Like I, I don't think we've ever discussed it. Um, but I have to give credit.
Kyley: Side note, everyone should interview their bestie. Like this is very, very fun.
Alicia: Um, I have to give credit here in this answer to my partner.
Alicia: [00:46:00] Because while I was, he had a very, very, very similar upbringing, um, minus the Jewish part, he was also, um, raised, he was exclusively homeschooled, um, had never even been to a doctor. Had never, like, just very, very insular, very separate from the world, um, upbringing. But what's so funny about both of our upbringings, I have to just, throw this little side side chuckle is we were both taught to debate.
Alicia: We were both taught apologetics and we were both taught to value learning. And so really our parents gave us. They gave you the tools. They gave us the exact tools to dismantle it all. And the route that um, that my partner went [00:47:00] is. He went to science and he really dug deep into the cosmos and the further he got into physics and astronomy and the, the story of the universe, the more magical it got.
Alicia: And he ran into this like beautiful pairing of Science and the metaphysical and seeing that really changed everything, because once we started seeing all the things that we were taught were just literally created in six days, once we started seeing those things, instead of just somebody pointing a finger and pointing it.
Alicia: It appearing [00:48:00] it become it becoming as a part of a process and just the power and the magic behind that process. You can't look at that and not see magic.
Kyley: Oh, oh, I love what you're saying so much. I have thought about this so many times, like, The fact that people debate, like, science only versus God only when it comes to the creation of the universe, I'm like, how is the Big Fucking Bang not the most miraculous thing you've ever heard?
Kyley: What do you, what is wrong with any of you? Like, how, the fact that people who are religious are threatened by God. By the big bang is so hilarious to me. I'm like this, this is evidence in your favor. What are you talking about? Right. Or like, same thing with evolution, same thing with evolution. I mean, like, I understand that [00:49:00] people who are opposed to evolution, it's because it threatens like a whole different kind of collection of beliefs, but like, are you telling me like the way that a rose.
Kyley: Softly unfurls like the gentle evolution to that, that like life crafted you to be exactly this you in this moment. Like that's not a miracle. What are you smoking?
Alicia: Sincerely? I am like, when you were just Talking, I was picturing like the solar system and, um, my now teenager when they were much younger, um, had a science project and they painted the planets in order.
Alicia: When you just look at those planets and you see how different they are and how beautiful they are and how the conditions on each planet are so vastly different. Like, how can you not associate those with? Deities, [00:50:00] how can you not see the energy dynamics and the power from that? The fact that we're even like positioned in the universe in such a way that we're not burning up or totally frozen at this moment.
Alicia: I mean, I could go on and on that could even be another podcast.
Kyley: Oh, I am. I'm just so delighted having this conversation because I couldn't, I couldn't agree more. And I think. I also think that to overlook that robs us of an opportunity to see. Like to see the miraculous, right? Like, so again, within Catholicism, I was at a funeral recently.
Kyley: There's a Catholic funeral. And the first time that I've sat through a Catholic mass in a minute. And the whole point, the whole like pinnacle of the Catholic mass is when they, this called transubstantiation, right, where you actually [00:51:00] miraculously turn this little, this little wafer, uh, into, by the way, there was like this very funny comedian once who talked, who called it a.
Kyley: Like instead of a cheez it a jeez it, this is what my whole family calls it now. So whenever I think of the Eucharist, I also hear my very sarcastic family calling it jeez it. Um, anyway, uh, like the whole, the whole pinnacle is like, this is the peak miracle, right? Is that this little piece of bread now is quite literally the body and blood of Christ.
Kyley: And I remember being a kid and being like, and I talked to my mom about this once. My mom still tells the story and I was like, mom. If you were God and you could do one miracle every day, why would this be the merit, right? There's people who need like people need so much. Why would this be the miracle that you, like, I don't understand why this would be the miracle, right?
Kyley: There's other miracles that seem like they would have a better impact than this bread thing. And my mom was like, yeah. And I thought that was a good question, kid. I don't know. You got a good point. But, but I share that story [00:52:00] because I share that moment because I think like the fixation on. Uncertain kinds of like miraculous things robs us of like A flower blooming is so insanely miraculous, right?
Kyley: Like, I mean, like, you're also a mother, like, my kids, what? You grew inside of me, and now you're here doing pull ups? Like, what? Right? Um, and I think it's interesting, too, Yeah, because now I'm just now I'm just barely at a tear about miracles, but I think we do this in like, you know, more like new age spirituality stuff to write where we let so hopped up on like manifestation and like getting money as evidence of like your miraculous alignment and it's like every day.
Kyley: The entirety, and I'm guilty of this too, right? I'm giving this, please know that this TED Talk is like for me and you, but like [00:53:00] every day the sun comes up and it's for you, right? Every day, like, I don't know. There's just the idea of the miraculous. I think is actually that it's natural.
Alicia: Yeah. And if you don't mind, I'd love to go back and like finish answering that like original question.
Kyley: Yes.
Alicia: I'm very glad that you
Kyley: held that, that you held that thread for us.
Alicia: Well, you just brought it back because that was what pulled us. To where we are now is that nature literally around us was proving that the magic is there
and
Alicia: I and part of the, you know, I, I'm going to have to like combine this with an answer to the other question about how scripture feels now.
Alicia: I. I'm finding so much beauty in my, um, [00:54:00] in the liturgy in Hebrew in particular, and I'm finding that those, those sounds, because they, they have a melody, um, hearing it for a long time was, Very hard. I, it was too emotional. I, I could not, I just couldn't, there was, there was some real trauma associated with it.
Alicia: And, and I interject briefly to ask,
Kyley: did that feel like conscious level? Did that feel somatic? Did it feel ancestral? Like. Oh,
Alicia: it was, I was a combination of ancestral and somatic, like my whole body would literally, I would, if I heard the blow of a shofar, or if I heard, um, if I heard like a, a canter, um, doing a blessing, I would just, my whole body would just cinch [00:55:00] up and I would just get so, I would get so deeply sad.
Alicia: It was. It wasn't a like a fear response like I have with with very Christian things and and I'm actually thankful for having the the dual um religious experience because that repels me faster than anything. I still, to this day, it's, it's very, uh, for lack of a better word, it's the only one that, that is coming to my mind.
Alicia: It is repulsive to me. Like I just, I don't want to hear it. I don't want to see it. I don't want to be part of it. On the flip side, when I hear the shofar now, It fills me with the most beautiful peace and, [00:56:00] um, but it also, I feel like it pulls me back in my spirit to connect with my ancestors in a way that I had never been able to do before.
Alicia: And that's been beautiful. And so those blessings and that aspect, um, of It is pre written, it, it has been uttered and sung for centuries and centuries. That feels very special and very rich to me now.
Kyley: Was it
Alicia: the
Kyley: experience of it, like the grief shifting towards something that has this deep resonance of peace?
Kyley: Was that like a natural evolution over time? Was that something that felt like it was exposure? Were there moments of like, Kind of significant ancestral healing that feel like they shift, you [00:57:00] know, since sometimes we have moments where it's like, oh, I'm talking to my ancestors and we're, we're, we're hashing something out, you know, and then there's a big shift on the other side.
Kyley: Um,
Alicia: I think what it was. Was the deeper I got into, the deeper I got into spirituality and, and the idea of being able to commune with and communicate with Deities once
I
Alicia: kind of started and it was really important to me to connect ancestrally. Um, because I wanted to be sure that I was being as respectful as possible.
Alicia: And, um, so I was really like, [00:58:00] especially in the early days of like coming kind of out of that. It's none of it's for me complete atheist mindset to where I am now. When I first started shifting, it was that. Tapping into like who I am. And I think a lot of times that's really, really hard for Americans. And, and I'm not saying that in a, you know, like, Oh, poor us.
Alicia: We have it harder by any means. But I think it is like literally geographically and, um, and ancestrally, it's, it's. Difficult to tap in to something that you've been taken away from.
Kyley: And two, two anecdotes on that one is I have a friend, actually my Photographer. So everyone who's, if you've ever ogled my photos, Alex is an amazing photographer and, um, she splits her time in Germany, her father's [00:59:00] German.
Kyley: And we were talking about like being witchy and she's like, it's completely, it's a completely different experience to practice magic. That is the land from which this particular lineage of magic was born, even as, you know, we are obviously also practicing it differently than, you know, then. Um, and she's like, it's a completely different experience.
Kyley: Um, and, and, I also, I don't think I've shared this story on the podcast before, but I had this really interesting experience early this summer where actually the last time I was getting ready to teach Villanera and I kind of set up a series of, um, I set up an altar where I, there's, there's six different, six different goddesses each week for Villanera.
Kyley: And the first one is Bridget, St. Bridget. And so I like set up an altar for each of them. And I was just kind of like sitting with them each morning. Like, okay, what are we doing? How are we doing this? [01:00:00] And the other goddesses just for context is, um, Kali, Loki, who a God is gender queer, he wanted to be in the mix.
Kyley: Um, uh, uh, Lilith. Um, Hecate and just, and the void, the, the cosmic boom and all those other deities. I have a really, really strong connection to like, I can feel in my body where I'm connected to them. I have, um, a lot of just like chit chatty conversations with some of them and Brigid. Has always been the one that I have the most dissonance with, like, by, by a significant amount, like, to the point that I'm, like, you, you, like, you, cool, you're, you're, you're in, you're in, but, like, you know, okay, um.
Kyley: And I was connecting about that in this meditation, just sort of like, okay, what's the deal with this like dissonance that I feel or the separation, Bridget? And I got this really intense vision of my [01:01:00] ancestors and specifically my ancestors coming from Ireland and leaving their country behind. Leaving their people behind, leaving their home behind, and therefore feeling like they do not deserve to be here.
Kyley: To be connected right that I could cry this like we left so that the cost of a band, the cost of having abandoned you, Bridget, Homeland Ancestry, is that we don't get to connect anymore. You know, because we're the ones who left and, um, and Bridget was like, do you want to keep that one? But I could feel, I mean, I can still feel it.
Kyley: I don't think, I don't think it's totally dissolved in some ways. I like, I have a very strong calling to go back to Ireland. I don't want to take my mom. And I think it's, I know it's part of this, but it's softened, but, um, it's yeah, it's this feeling of like, I, I, like I did the wrong thing. I don't have a, I don't have a [01:02:00] right to make, to make this connection.
Kyley: Anyway, I don't have a consistent way to say that, but I think that's actually very, I think that's probably, I don't think that's a singular thing for my DNA to carry. I think that's actually very, very common among American, like American immigrants.
Alicia: I, I love that because Bridget was actually my first.
Alicia: Really? Who came through for me and, and I'm also predominantly Irish and I didn't realize that. I actually did not realize that until very recently. Um, I thought, I thought I was mostly Scottish and German come to find out I'm literally mostly Irish. And I think that's so incredible how that gives us, [01:03:00] that almost creates.
Alicia: Some barriers, but also creates the opening. And I, one of the things when we knew we wanted to leave Virginia, and one of the things that sold us on Maine was that, um, my partner had been to Ireland multiple times. I have not yet, but he said that the terrain of Maine reminds him so much of Ireland. And.
Alicia: Especially the coastal areas where you have the cliffs and and the mountains right at sea and that was just like resonated for him. And that's been part of in the last. Working on year three now, um, it's enriched our practice so much to be in a place that feels like home. I have, I was a military brat growing up and I never felt like if [01:04:00] someone asks where are you from or where's home, I would give like all these caveats and three different answers.
Alicia: Right. Now, a home is made, and it's because we feel so deeply connected to the land and in with, with full, like, respect and reverence for the indigenous from this area as well. And we, we have made connections with, um, With some wonderful people and, and want to make sure we also acknowledge that it is indeed, um, not Ireland.
Alicia: We are in a land that was already inhabited. Um, and also, even the story that we're still learning about Maine, but from the very beginning, the people who came here and the way that they interacted with each other. Um, it all connects back to our ancestry
and. [01:05:00]
Alicia: I just don't think that's a coincidence. I don't think it's a coincidence that we were drawn here.
Alicia: And then after being drawn here, we ended up in the exact town that we're in. And then meeting the people that we've met. We wouldn't be talking right now if it wasn't for that beautiful chain of events. And. That again, brings us back to magic. It's all so magical.
Kyley: Yeah. I mean, just to wax poetic for a moment about the land in Maine, like listeners, if you haven't, I've read to coastal Maine, giddy up, get yourself there.
Kyley: I, we were up there for, for Thanksgiving and I spent one afternoon on the beach in November, you know, the beach in November and Desi's like climbing all over the rocks and like throwing, you know, throwing rocks into the water. And I just sat there for this big rock and just sat. With the land in a way that it's, it's, it's [01:06:00] the land is so alive and so present there in a way that here where I live there's, there's lots of natural beauty.
Kyley: Um, you know, you get to drive a little bit to some of it, but it doesn't, I don't, it doesn't. The land just feels like it like just pulls me into feeling connection and connected and rooted in home and I didn't grow up there listeners like I grew up in Massachusetts. My family moved there when I was a teenager.
Kyley: Um, but it just the roots of it just like. Pull you in in a way that, um, is different than anywhere, anywhere else I have been. Um, so yeah, shout out to me.
Kyley: Okay. So we alluded in the beginning to how much the path is just meandering and ups and downs and inside out. What feels like the edge for you when it comes to spirituality and connecting to, you know, divinity or deities? What feels like. Um, the place you're being stretched. And I'm [01:07:00] specifically asking this question about kind of ritual and mystical and magical and not about healing, although the two are woven together.
Kyley: Um, but I guess you could answer the other one if you also want to. Oh,
Alicia: I love the timing of this. Um, so I have quite a rich and, and very consistent, um, honestly, more consistent than I've been with anything ever. My whole life. Um, thank you. ADHD. That wasn't diagnosed till you were in your 20s. Um, I have quite a rich practice of, um, spending time almost daily with cards. And, um, and candle magic and I, I'm an Aries and I think that like fire has drawn me for [01:08:00] my whole life.
Alicia: I've always been just mesmerized by fire. I've always loved fire, um, as an element. And, um, and then when I got old enough to learn that I was an Aries, that was the coolest thing ever because. Hold that fire. And, um, but what that practice has done, and I use Oracle and Tarot and, um, and a lot of different ways that I approach, um, candle magic, but what it's done, and especially recently, I've been getting messages coming through that are literally the same exact message for like, Weeks and and it's to the point where it's like, oh, are you doing this practice every day because like you need the reminder because you've already been given the answer, [01:09:00] or is this part of like an act of devotion.
Alicia: And is it something that you're doing to connect with. Those deities and, and those energies. And I've really been like wrestling with that a little bit, because especially when the message is so identical, like, and in ways that is impossible, like, like getting the same message from seven different decks thinking, Oh, well, it's just my imagination or I just, you know,
cause
Alicia: you still do that.
Alicia: You still do that no matter how long you've, you've been doing this. Um, But the messages being so consistent have. Like really had me a little on edge and, and really questioning myself. Like, what is the, the impetus behind this? Like, are you falling back into the pattern of, Oh, I have to [01:10:00] do this in order to be a good.
Alicia: I consider myself. If we're using labels to be a polytheistic pagan, if I'm truly, you know, on that path, am I doing it right? Am I devoted enough? And I haven't answered all those questions yet, and I don't know how much of that is connected to things that I'm still deconditioning
and how
Alicia: much of it is connected to those energies and deities that I'm tapping into now.
Kyley: Oh, this is so rich because one of the things for me, that's been showing up quite a bit this is interesting because one of the things that's really alive for me and has been for, uh, probably at least since September, um, is this call towards devotion and, you know, I, when I vision, when I envision, Having [01:11:00] an office again, like an office that I could rent, um, or having my own office in our house.
Kyley: I want to get a neon sign in hot pink that says divine chaos. I've seen it for a long time. I can't wait. I've even like looked up how much it will cost to get, I don't know where to put it yet, but like, yo, that will be my backdrop is just the neon pink divine chaos, right? So, so, so I love, I, I love, and sometimes hate that, you know, spirit And like this, and this energy of divine chaos is so alive for me.
Kyley: And, and it's been very liberating for a long time. But in that is this, for me has been this, this rupture from do the right thing, follow the rules, be the good girl. Right. It's like, there's no fucking rules. Like, there's no way to do this other than however you show up, you know, the intention is like, the magic is your intention that has been so.
Kyley: Liberating from the me who sometimes couldn't engage with ritual and, [01:12:00] and, and discipline without it feeling just like oozing with shame and judgment. And lately, and it's getting louder, Spirit has been like, that was fun. Now imagine what would happen if you tried. Kind of like the kid on the basketball team who's like, you know, just like that.
Kyley: I'm not, I'm not, I'm not saying this to call myself as being naturally good, but like the kind of like, Oh, it's just happening organically. And what happens when that kid actually starts showing up to practice, right? It's been like, you've tapped into your own kind of natural chaos magic. What if you put some structure and intention and discipline and devotion behind it?
Kyley: Then what might you do? And that's where my whole nervous system goes. Snooze, snooze button. Come back next week. So that's real scary. Thank you very much.
Alicia: Oh, that's so [01:13:00] true.
Alicia: I think for me. What has been the shift because I did feel that way for many, many years. Um, but for me, I think that shift again, has been the reconnection with my Jewishness and. And going towards a path that is, um, very much I'm, I'm at the place now where I am not giving anything up what I have gained in the last in the last 5 years in particular.
Alicia: It's too precious to give anything up. So I'm not interested in any kind of formal, um,
Alicia: like conversion, for instance, like, that's not my path. And I think it's a beautiful path that that is what others choose to [01:14:00] do. But for me, it's very much a path of. Integrating and marrying those concepts, because Kabbalah dwells so much back in to almost the scientific leaning concept of the universe, and it deals with the universe on so many beautiful mystical levels, and there's just too much to know and learn and experience.
Alicia: To not have a consistent practice, because I know that that's part of my learning too. And if I'm, if I'm not in practice, then I. I feel like I'm missing out on something, um, because I do feel like I, I look at people who had the blessing of being raised very differently and, and who have been, you know, pagan [01:15:00] from the cradle and I have some real jealousy because they're able to be at a different level.
Alicia: And, and I don't mean level and hierarchy, but, but level of comfort. And they're able to be at a different level of just knowledge and, and understanding and knowing, um, that I, you know, I probably have another 10, 15 years before I can even start to touch that. And, and that's exciting to me.
Kyley: That's what I was going to say.
Kyley: So I was recently having a conversation with spirit. Or I was like being cranky about something, right? Basically the impatience cause I'm an Aries moon. So I am not even a little bit patient. Um, And the, I mean, it's, it's tourists on areas, mood, as we all know, it's like one foot on the gas, one foot on the break at all times.
Kyley: , I was feeling salty, basically, [01:16:00] long story short, there's all of this like inspiration and excitement and like coming together in my business that's like, oh, and this is clicking and this is clicking and this is clicking in. And also I'm very much in the process of them clicking in.
Kyley: And so, uh, I, I was feeling cranky of like, I can, I can see it. I can see all this uses click. They're all, it's, they're all here. They're all assembled. And also like, oh my God, this is taking too long and I'm annoyed. And I was. Complaining to Spirit about that and Spirit was just like, what the shit? The spirit was like, you love this, you are in the laboratory, like everyone knows that I know that some I lean into that mad scientist archetype and everyone was like, you are a mad scientist in her laboratory right now, you fucking love dissecting every little teeny tiny crevice of this current puzzle and conundrum that you think exists, even though it's not actually real, right?
Kyley: They were just like, you. [01:17:00] You are eating this. Who do you think you are kidding that you want us to speed this up that you would skip this that you would just arrive. Please know that guys, this is actually how spirit times be careful if you hang out with too many Tristar gods. And they were just like, do you really think that you just want to arrive at some final destiny?
Kyley: Like you of all people, are you kidding me? And I was, Oh, Oh, I have been called. I have, I, you are correct. Okay. Okay. Yep. I'm just going back into my lab. Thank you very much. Uh, and that is exactly what I heard of when you were talking about like people who were just like raised in one safe, cozy, religious, spiritual experience and therefore don't have all this like drama to unpack because I'm like, Oh my God, but like all the like meat and juicy, you know, complex flavors that make your experience so rich, like you wouldn't give that up for the [01:18:00] world.
Alicia: No, not for a second.
Kyley: What is one thing? If someone listening to this is in an earlier stage of deconditioning, what is one thing that you would say to them?
Alicia: Don't be afraid to get it wrong. I can't tell you how many times I thought I had it figured out in air quotes and I have, the more I learn and the more I know, the more I realize I don't know anything. And that is so liberating. And it's Um, it's so opposite of the way I was raised and especially for anyone who was raised fundamentalist, um, the way I was, we were, we were [01:19:00] told and, and literally groomed and conditioned to believe that we had all the answers.
Alicia: And so when you're deconditioning and realizing that those answers aren't exactly accurate, you feel like the floor has been pulled out from under you and you are free falling. And so I would also caution to be gentle with yourself because there may be some things that you do need to hold on to a little bit longer in the process to make that transition.
Alicia: More gentle on your nervous system because it is scientists have done studies on the brains of fundamentalist and I don't have all the exact like the names in front of me, but they they have done actual research on their brains and there are. [01:20:00] Significant sections of the brain that are literally turned off when you are part of a fundamentalist cult.
Alicia: And it's, it can be repaired, but I can tell you firsthand that it is painful at times. And I am still finding places. where I am still having to remind myself or just simply pause and ask myself, is this really true or is this leftover from the past? And I would say probably, you know, once every couple of months, something still pops up where I, I analyze it that way to make sure that I'm still learning and still growing.
Kyley: Can I reflect something back to you in the very beginning when you were talking about that woman, Rachel Evans held, is that [01:21:00] her, what's her name? Rachel held Evans. Rachel held Evans. When you were talking about her and her model of this really inclusive love and this, you were describing you were getting choked up right about like a love in which everybody's welcome and I want to reflect back to you that what I have, what I have watched in the years that we've been lucky enough to be close is how much you have made.
Kyley: You have made yourself a seat at the table of love
Alicia: at the end of the day. That is, that's the answer. And that is what still burdens my heart the most. Um, and it means more to me than I could ever say that you said that because when, when you're told your whole life that this side a is what love looks like. And then you [01:22:00] realize. That that's not love at all, that that's control and bondage and fear
Alicia: to be able to experience love on this side of the deconditioning process is everything. And that is my goal. I want everyone in my sphere of, of influence to feel love. And, and that is at, at the end, that's all that matters.
Kyley: Well, that's clearly where we have to conclude. This is clearly the part where we have to now transition to Joy because there's no, that's like the ultimate mic, mic drop.
Kyley: My friend, before we do a round of Joy. Where can people find you? [01:23:00] They want more of you. Oh my
Alicia: goodness. Thank you so much for asking. I will have to send you like the link to my TikTok because at the moment I don't even remember exactly what my We'll put it in the show
Kyley: notes. You just give me the info.
Kyley: We'll put it in the show notes.
Alicia: Because, and I say that because I really want people to find me at TikTok, on TikTok. Oh, wait, hold
Kyley: on. Then pause, please. Actually, we are going to look this up. That's what we're going to do because my phone, because
Alicia: the
Kyley: TikTok stores, if, if, if Alicia Nelson is ready to let the world see her, we are going to give them the information.
Kyley: Alicia, my love, before we transition to joy, where can the people find you?
Alicia: Well, I have to share a really quick side story. Um, you know how everybody thought that TikTok was disappearing.
Alicia: And so people just started like posting lots of things and, um, and some of them were [01:24:00] excessively unhinged.
Um,
Alicia: I, I was one of those people and, um, all of a sudden I have gained like almost a hundred followers in the last week. And, um, you know what? I'm running with it because people are enjoying it. And I was literally in my in person book club tonight.
Alicia: And one of the other. Book clubbers. Okay, that was funny. Um, one of the, one of the other readers in the book club looked at me and said, I just need you to know that I've really been enjoying your tick tock. So please everyone join me. Um, during this conversation I got an idea for a new series so I'm going to start doing more regular content on tick tock.
Alicia: Oh my
Kyley: gosh, this is my, this is so, I love this. I am so here for this.
Alicia: Yes. And I also, I also really, really love my Instagram, um, which is my elastic roots.
Kyley: [01:25:00] TikTok. Yes. Everybody is at quirky one, the, the, the word one. You really are making this confusing for us, but we are smart people. We can rally. So it's quirky, the word one, O N E, and then the number one, six, it's also in the show notes.
Kyley: Okay. Okay. It's done. And Instagram.
Alicia: Instagram is at my Celtic roots. That's a little easier. And that is my bookstagram account, which I am really enjoying spending a lot of time, um, reading books from new authors predominantly and sharing about them. And, um, it's been really, really fun and that's growing a lot too.
Alicia: So those are my two places. Excellent. Excellent. We love it. And all that being said.
Kyley: What, beloved, is bringing you joy right now?
Alicia: Well, I do listen to the [01:26:00] podcast. So, I was very prepared for this question. And I brought a prop. And I know that everyone can't see my prop. But I'm going to describe
Kyley: my prop. Oh my gosh, this is so great.
Alicia: This is so great. So, So growing up, so growing up, I, um, I did not
Kyley: like show and tell the hell of universe
Alicia: edition. Yes, it is. Exactly. Um, we didn't even talk much about the fact that I'm an elementary educator at heart. Um, so my show and tell for my joy is, um, their name is Web Z and, um, Web Z is a stuffed.
Alicia: Alpaca, we have determined that Web Z is an alpaca, not a llama and, um, growing up, I had severe asthma and allergies and I could not have anything that was dust collecting and it was very, very sad because I never had stuffed animals growing up [01:27:00] and I, Just in the last couple of years have decided that I deserve stuffed animals, and I deserve to reparent that child who, um, didn't get to have stuffed animals.
Alicia: And so, whoopsie is my favorite at the moment because, um, they're, they're quite
Kyley: large. Listeners, Alicia has a giant, practically life sized alpaca.
Alicia: I will do a Tik Tok with Webbsy so that everyone can see. So come to my Tik Tok and you'll see Webbsy.
Kyley: There we go. There we go. That was great. That was great material.
Kyley: Excellent. Um, this is the cutest thing I've ever seen. I love this. Love this. Okay. Fantastic. Fantastic.
Kyley: , I'm back for real now. I have something that's bringing me joy, and I can't figure out a thing to call it, so I'm going to describe it and maybe we can reverse engineer it, or not give it a label, that's fine, but there's been all these really beautiful moments of connection [01:28:00] and community that have felt so effortless and sweet and miraculous and nourishing and beautiful.
Kyley: As someone who's been, you know, trying to release stories of like bad friends, you know, debt energetics around, around friendship for a long time. I can appreciate, I'm especially appreciating how sweetly I can receive these things. There's a way that for a long time, when my kids were younger, peak COVID, where like, it was just so effortful for me to like, Reach out, talk to people, I really had, my world got, got really big in some ways, but also small in other ways, and, um, and that, and there was just for a long time, like a kind of, like, efforting that had to happen in order to reach out, especially if I'd started to adopt a story of like, oh, see, you're being a bad friend with this person you've known for 20 years, and once that story kicked in, There was just like, Oh, it was just always having to like overcome an [01:29:00] obstacle every time I wanted to connect with this person, which sucked.
Kyley: And I could see what was happening. I was, I could see a certain for a while. I couldn't, eventually I started to see it, but there's a period where you see what you're doing, but you don't know how to not do it, you know? And there's been all of these ways in which being in community feels sweet and effortless and receiving and unconnecting just doesn't feel right.
Kyley: Heavy. And I could, and, and, and there's a, there's a relief there because I've actually worked really fucking hard to be able to be in relationship in this way. Like, one example is I have this really beautiful new community of friends. I have one local friend and she just like glommed me into this other pre existing connection of these brilliant, smart, interesting women.
Kyley: And the group chat just regularly is just exploding. And an old version of me would just drown. Right. Be like, you don't even know these women. Like you [01:30:00] can't even keep up with their tech. There's just be all sorts of stories. And I don't have any of that. I'm just like, Oh yeah, that chat is off the charts.
Kyley: And I'll come in and I'll be like, I don't know what happened to everybody, but here's the funny story I have to write. There's just, or I will go back and read because I'm not feeling all like guilty and fucking weird about it. Um, and, um, Like today's the birthday of one of my oldest friends and some part of me still has some story of like, you know, yo, you haven't done whatever, whatever, whatever, it doesn't even matter because it's not logical.
Kyley: And I guess because when I called her to sing her happy birthday on her voice note, right? And she wasn't there and she called back later. We were about to record. You don't have to talk to her tomorrow, but like, that's such a simple thing to just call your friend on their birthday. And. That's actually been complicated for me in a way that I have not enjoyed and I have been, and I, um, I'm just really, I'm grateful for the ease and it [01:31:00] feels like the tide coming in because I can still feel all the edges, even as we're talking about, I can still feel the sharp edges of where not good enough is living, where the stories are still in these relationships, but it's not, it's not Rushing the life out of them.
Kyley: It's just like in the sidecar. And so I can also just feel the tide coming in. I'm like, okay. And like, and then it's just going to wash away these stories more and more. And I am really grateful for that. And actually I'll just share, since I'm already sharing such a long thing, one of the huge ahas that I had in this whole experience is, um, the, one of the reasons that I get overwhelmed.
Kyley: Is because I have an abundance of friendship. Like, this is so obvious, but basically I was like, Oh, the reason that I'm kind of overwhelmed all the time about how many people I want to be in relationship with is because I am fucking blessed to have all these incredible humans in my life that I love so much.
Kyley: And if I stopped treating myself like [01:32:00] a fucking problem and just accepted, maybe they just love you, dummy.
Alicia: Imagine that then
Kyley: you might be able to enjoy your own abundance instead of, um, Pushing it away because you think you're unworthy. That's juicy. Yeah, it feels pretty, it feels like, you know, it feels like a thing I've been slogging, like life has been through the ringer for this one for a while.
Kyley: And I'm grateful to, I'm, I'm soaking it up. I'm I'm the relief of it. It feels very sweet.
Kyley: Thank you. My beloved friend. What's this? Wait, wait, what's our alpacas name? Wubbzy. Wubbzy. Thank you, Wubbzy.
Alicia: It is spelled W U B Z I E
Kyley: naturally. Well, thank you. We'll see you make an excellent, you made an excellent co host.
Kyley: Till next time [01:33:00] listeners.