This show is brought to you by our inner teenagers. With surprise and delight, we wound up reminiscing about the 90s, reveling in fashion-as-play and power, and generally invited our inner teen selves to run the show this week.
This show is brought to you by our inner teenagers. With surprise and delight, we wound up reminiscing about the 90s, reveling in fashion-as-play and power, and generally invited our inner teen selves to run the show this week.
Kelly -
Instagram.com/kellymahalak
Eva's instagram: @iamevaliao
Book a discovery call with Eva
Kyley's Instagram: @kyleycaldwell
Join Kyley’s Facebook group: Monsters & Magic
Grab your ticket for Magic Circle
Kyley: [00:00:00] All right. Um, I have been so looking forward to this. Kelly, welcome to Hello Universe.
Kelly: Hello. Thank you for having me.
Kyley: Yeah. Okay. So we will jump in with our favorite question to start off the show, which is what is something that life is teaching you right now?
Kelly: When you guys told me that this is opening question, I was like, what is life teaching me right now? Um, so many things. I
Eva: a little bit.
Kelly: yeah, so many things all the time and I think what's been really prevalent for me for the last like few weeks, maybe even a few months and maybe even [00:01:00] longer if I really think about it.
I've been doing a lot of work with healing my inner teenager.
Kyley: Um.
Kelly: And I feel like we focus so much in like healing spaces and like personal development on like healing the inner child. And we're always going back to these really little versions. So that's, and of course like I did that and I feel like there's a certain point when like little Kelly was like, okay, we're okay now.
And then like teenager Kelly was like, fuck you. I'm like showed up like raging rebellious and it's been really, really interesting cause it's like a whole, like I said, it's like probably if I look back I was like coming on for years. But that's been like, it's been such a cool experience actually to like play with that [00:02:00] part in myself and it, I'll be 40 this year.
And so like at nearly 40 years old to like go back to that like teenager early twenties, me, who was just like, so, so fucked up, right? Like she just like bless that poor child who did everything that she needed to, to figure out how to survive. Um, and now getting back to like kind of go through like a second adolescence, almost like in control without parents or like the world I'm in midlife, where like I've kind of already reached that like level of low level of fuck given about like how other people perceive me and think about me and stuff like that.
And being able to kind of like reinvent and like regrow up in my way and not in [00:03:00] the ways that I thought like the world. Wanted me to, or in ways that were driven by deep coping mechanisms and like survival strategy.
Eva: Okay, so I love you bringing up this topic of the teenage self. You're kind of bringing me back cuz you're right. A lot of like the inner child work that I do is like, Womb space to like maybe nine years old. Uh, is that true? And I think sometimes there's a little bit more. Yeah.
Sometimes a teenager self comes in, but I'm just like, I don't know, getting a kick right now. Thinking about God being a teenager is bra dude. And I like think I forget about that. I don't know. I don't know. Kylie, I'd be curious to know what your teenage self was like. Cause I think maybe we were really different, but definitely so emotional in like, and hormonal.
I think in all these ways when I look back and I was like, God, I was a maniac. I feel so, I mean I was also, I mean, not as bad as maybe I think that I was, but God, my poor parents just period. Period. Like parents in general. You've got teenagers. Like that's a rough [00:04:00] and beautiful time. I don't know. Kylie, what were you like as a teen?
Kyley: Oh, what was I like as a teen? Uh, I mean, I was like the ultimate good girl. Like, I worked really hard to make all my teachers love me, and, uh, I hated myself. Like any self-respecting good girl.
Eva: That is so
Kyley: I mean, I, um, I moved in high school too, so a lot of my experience of being a teenager feels like it's kind of marked by loneliness, which again, is not uncommon for, for being a, being a, um, you know, being a teenager.
But the kind of loneliness, like it was a particular kind of outsiderness because I was literally like, I was actually an outsider in these spaces of having moved. Um, but I,
Eva: which is like a hard time to move, right? I think it was, you said your sophomore year.
Kyley: But I also really love what you're speaking to Kelly, because in addition to our teenage self being like a hot fucking mess, they [00:05:00] are also like there's a part of our teenage self who's like, I don't know, like knows that she's God.
Like I have this really distinct memory of being in high school and like walking home from school one day and just like feeling so clear that I was like, my life is whatever the fuck I want it to be. Right? Because you like don't have any, you don't have the weight of rules and obligations the way like paying your bills becomes, right.
So there's this like imaginative, like I can do whatever the fuck I want that. I think I. I think I'm like regaining access too, and I, I think like 16 year old Kylie was like, yeah, watch out world. Even as she also was like, please, please, please, please, please, please, please love me.
Kelly: Right.
Eva: yeah,
Kyley: oh. I'm curious, Kelly, like how, yeah. How your teenage self shows [00:06:00] up for you.
Kelly: Well, when I was actually a teenager a hundred thousand years ago in like the Meic era, um, called the nineties,
Kyley: Yes. We're all the same age, so.
Kelly: back in the 19 hundreds.
Eva: Okay. But I had this, sorry, a bit of a pivot, but my friends and I were texting a while ago, recently actually, and she was like, the nineties were like 20 years ago. So that was like for us, the seventies, like it, it feels like no time at all, but actually to the younger generation, like 20 years is a long fucking time ago and you know, it's been been more than, so it's like mind blowing to think about how, I don't know.
That does seem kind of like way in the past.
Kelly: Yeah, when American Girl recently came out with their new Girls of the Year who are like the twins that are giving Mary Kate and Ashley like big time, and they are from the nineties, I was like, every, right. [00:07:00] Our generation was so offended. We were like, how dare you? Because they're historical dolls
Eva: Yeah.
Kelly: it's like, how dare you call a doll that has like a, you know, a clear light up telephone and like a blow up couch in her bedroom.
Historical, like that was not that long ago. But if you think about it, in the nineties when we were buying American girl dolls, they were coming out with Julie as a historical doll, which was the seventies, which was like the same dynamic for our parents. And so it's like,
Eva: I know
we're feeling what they were feeling, which is bizarre as
Kelly: I am vintage, like I own vintage clothing that I bought the first time around cuz something vintage is wet, like 20 years or older or something.
And I'm like, I definitely still own things that I bought more than
Eva: Wow. Yeah. Yeah. Okay.
Kyley: Also, I'm just also really like that teenage American girl doll, like. She just is living my dream life. I wanted one of those blow up couches so bad. [00:08:00] And I remember selling, what was it, like wrapping paper or something through my school and one of the prizes, like the prize that I had circled was one of those clear fucking phones.
I did not get it. Like, God, I wanted one.
Eva: That is so funny. Oh my God. I, I had one of those phones. I remember having that phone and listening to fucking Nirvana and like, not placing it as a nineties singer, but that was the time that I was in.
It was
Kyley: my God. That is like the most nice. Can I can. Okay. Can I share? When I was in middle school, uh, I was, I was always very uncool and, um, I was trying to like figure out what music was cool and like, you know, and so I would listen to Kiss 1 0 8, uh, like top 40 with Casey Ksem. And then I like to this day now, I just know it's my a d d, but like, I can't remember songs or song names.
And some people would be like, what music do you like? And I would be like, I don't fucking know. So I would take my mom and mom was in college at the time. I would take my mom's little like. Like, um, cassette recorder that she would listen to. Like she would used to like record her [00:09:00] teachers lectures cuz we were also poor.
So this is my budget version of making a mix tape. I would hold the like recorder for your, like, professor up to my clock, radio of Casey.
Eva: Yep. Totally did
that
Kyley: would make myself like, these are the songs. And then I would legit study the, like names of the songs. So when we're like, what music do you like? I could be like, yes, Britney Spear, I like Britney Spear, or whatever the thing was.
Eva: Yep. Totally
Kyley: that tells you everything you need to know about 14 year old Kylie Caldwell.
Kelly: Right. Oh my gosh. Yeah, like that was such a wild time for me because I. Was raised in like a fundamentalist evangelical home. And so there were a lot of expectations on me and like, it's such a weird thing to grow up in that kind of belief system and dynamic because everything, like at a time in your teenage years, we were like, you are supposed to be like [00:10:00] carefree and like not have responsibility and just like live your life and have fun and like figure out who you are.
You are very strictly told exactly who you're supposed to be, exactly how you're supposed to act. You're given no room to walk outside of the lines and everything has this like eternal weight on it and this pressure that's put on you. Like I, looking back, I'm like, what the, I was like literally in a cult and like did not realize it because it was Christianity, so it was fine.
But when I was 14 years old, I went without my parents. With about 15 other kids and a couple of adults from our church to Hawaii. Like lucky me, right? Like poor, poor me sounds really great, except I spent all of my mornings sitting in a lecture hall learning Christian apologetics, which is essentially the study of how to argue your faith.
And so like when people of other beliefs tell you, like [00:11:00] tell you why they don't believe what you believe, it like teaches you and trains you like how to advocate and like convert
Eva: that's a thing. Is that a common thing? I don't know anything about religion,
Kelly: Yeah. So no, it's not common, but like it is in certain sects I guess. And so, but like, this is not necessarily a typical evangelical experience, but it was mine.
So we would go and we would train in the morning as like 14, 15, 16 years old. We would learn how to basically like proselytize people and convert them. And then in the afternoons we'd be sent out in Paris, two by two out into the streets of a city we did not live in. I did this in Baltimore. I did it in Chicago.
I did it in Hawaii. And we walked Waikiki Beach and literally walked up to the strangers and we're like, do you know Jesus? Let me tell you. And then the culmination as if that's not bad enough, right? Like that is
Eva: sorry. I'm sorry. I have to stop you there because, okay. So, and I will
try to, I will try to bring us back on track cause I feel like it's already [00:12:00] been so many things that I've been loving about this conversation. I didn't know I needed a conversation about the nineties by the way.
So
Kyley: Yeah, I know my heart feels very full.
Eva: yeah, I'm like, let's have more of that at some point. Let's make a mental note. But, um, So when you were doing, because you know, I've had that experience where I've been approached by young people and, and, and actually it's fine cuz you're always really kind and sweet and, but, but from your experience, how did you feel when you were doing that?
I've always wondered, like, do you feel like it's normalized and so you're, it's all good. Do you
feel
Kelly: I was terrified. I was so scared. And there is this like kind of unspoken pressure and like almost like a competition of sorts to come back and be like, this is how many sold. I saved today out on the beaches of Waikiki. I brought three people home to Jesus. Like, it was so wild. But then like the worst part is that before we left, we had to choose three friends who were not Christians back at home and write them [00:13:00] letters and send, like, mail them and hand them to adults to send.
So then we would come back from these vacations, right from these trips to our friends having received these letters, being like, I love you and I'm afraid that you're gonna burn in hell. And that makes me sad. Would you like to come to youth group with me on Monday,
Eva: I mean, I've gotten one, I've gotten that before from a f close friend of mine Who, and, and it
Kelly: right?
Eva: um,
yeah. I, I just wonder how that was from your experience, because I think I'm just gonna be really transparent, and I'm sorry if this is rude, but I was like, I was like, it, I was so resistant. I was like, you are trying to brainwash me. And I,
I got really Like, upset. Yeah, I got like upset, but I guess I wondered, and then we had to have this whole conversation where I was like, oh, I under, even my young self was like, oh, I understand.
Like you think I'm gonna go to hell, so you're actually trying to do something good for me. So it's coming [00:14:00] from this loving place, but like also, but, but that belief is just wrong. So.
Kelly: Right. And I am like for sure, like still so curious as to like how I remain friends with any of the people I sent these letters to because now I'm like, oh my God, if somebody did that to me, like I would be like, you are cut out of my life. Right? Even though like you do know it is coming, but when you're a teenager, that kind of pressure that like it was on me to save my friends from eternal damnation, like that pressure was put on me, that I was put in these people's lives to save them and like their eternal fate and like that's so much to carry.
So like I have this going on in the background and then eventually like I kind of rebelled against it all the way and fell into like addiction and. Like really just kind of like [00:15:00] swung full opposite to like where, you know, if I hadn't, by the time I got to my peak, I was in like my early, early twenties.
And so at that point there wasn't much my parents could do but like pray for me, um, cuz I was living outside of the house and stuff like that. But like, I would've for sure if I had swung as hard in the direction as I did earlier when my parents had control. Like, I would've probably been like sent to like a teenager bootcamp or something like that.
I was just old enough that like, there was nothing anyone could do for me at that point, but like, let me make my choices as bad and destructive as they were. But it was like this complete kind of like swinging in the opposite direction and like overcorrection from this. Like rigid, you know, I was supposed to be like pretty and like quiet and thin and like I had to look a certain way.
And so I had like [00:16:00] eating issues and things like that. And I struggled with my sexuality cuz I had like all these like queer things happening inside of me. But like that wasn't allowed. I had to like, I could only live in this like one very specific life, which was to like go to school and like find something to do with my life, whether it be college or a job or something like that until I got married so I could have kids and run the Bible study at church for the women's group and raise babies.
And like that was my fate and my value as a woman. And there was no strength outside of that, that didn't feel for like, lack of better words like, Dangerous like death, right? Because like I risked steering outside of the status quo in my upbringing, risked my family, disowning me, which as a teenager was, you know, and this is [00:17:00] stuff I've like had to deeply unpack in therapy was that like I was so being me and like exploring myself as a teenager, I risked that like being sent away. Being disowned by my family, which could have potential being kicked out, homelessness, things like that. So like literally like keeping a lid, like dating only boys, um, like looking a certain way, dressing a certain way, acting a certain way, being a certain way, setting a certain life trajectory for myself in my plans for post high school and stuff was like literally in certain ways felt at least like a matter of life and death because I risked being like completely cut off from community and family.
And so like now,
Eva: that is, you know, that is very much close to death.
Kelly: right? And so now after like, you know, years in life and lots of therapy and coaching and things like that, [00:18:00] it's like, oh wait, I get to go back and rediscover who I am. What do I want? What kind of relationships do I want? Exploring, sexuality, exploring, just like the way that I dress, the way that I act.
Like all of that I get to do in the freedom of like, wait, nobody can kick me out of my house cuz this is my motherfucking house. Nobody can take anything away from me because I do all of this, right? Like I'm divorced. Like this is like a one woman. I mean I have so many people that support me, but like ultimately like it's me. And so like I've been able to create these safe spaces for me to kind of like over the last, yeah, probably like at least year or two. And it's been ramping up lately, like reinvent who I am, the way that I should have been able to [00:19:00] do 25 years ago and do all of that, like personal self exploration and
Eva: Yeah,
Kelly: been really fun.
Kyley: Oh, I love this.
Eva: I know. I mean, okay, so first of all, this all makes sense. No wonder your teenage self, no, no wonder it's important for you to go to your teenage self. And that voice is also like, fuck you. Right? Because a lot of this is also trauma that was happening Yeah. In your teenage years.
Kelly: Yeah.
Eva: can you talk about reinventing yourself a little bit?
Like how, how, what does that. Yeah. What does that mean? How, how does one do that in, in your experience?
Kelly: Yeah. So actually I took cues from, um, I think you may know this, but Evie you probably don't and nobody listening probably does. But, um, I homeschool my kids. Um, I always have, none of my kids have been in school. My oldest is finishing up ninth grade right now. So we've been at this for a hot minute.
Um, and one of the things that we did when I [00:20:00] first got into homeschooling was, um, I was really interested in something called unschooling. If you guys are familiar with the
Kyley: That's what we have done with Desi this year, part by intention part because turns out I'm not actually cut out to be a homeschool mom.
Kelly: Right, right. Like a little bit of that. I think that that was like my neuro divergence trying to like steer me in that direction. And unschooling is basically the concept for anyone who doesn't know that learning is like a natural function of humanity and that we will always be seeking out more information and anything and that like basically, Like education is hinged on the concept that you will always learn what you need to know to do what you want to and need to do.
And you'll always find like it's just built into our humanity, that we'll always find the answers, the resources, the skillsets that we need in order to function in the world. And so like do I need to sit my kids down and like teach them a lesson about like the Magna Carta? No, because like, when the fuck are they ever gonna need to know that?
And if they do happen to because they wanna be on jeopardy or something, [00:21:00] then I suppose that will become relevance. But outside of that, I can see no reason why as like American children in the world, you know, the year 2023, why the Magna Carta is relevant. So why are we wasting time telling them all of this just so we can test them on it to say that they know this arbitrary piece of information.
And so unschooling is really like interest led, um, life led, right? So like, math looks more like counting things, baking, cooking, planting, um, Money, like that kind of stuff because it's like real life execution. And so you're not like really sitting down with books. But one of the things when it comes to unschooling is that it's really hard for people who have been in traditional school to be able to just like drop into like the laissez fair, kind of like what do you want?
You wanna talk about frogs for the next month? Great. Like let's go explore frogs. We will go down to the pond and hunt them. We will buy one on the internet that's ferel toyed and cut it up. We will get every book that the [00:22:00] library has on fucking frogs until you're sick of it, and then we'll move on to your next interest.
Right? It's like very, again, very A D h, D fucking, I'm like, wait, this is all just about hyperfocused. Um, now that I'm saying this, this makes so much more sense. Um, But so yeah, so in order to be able to like kind of drop out of like school having to look a certain way or be structured a certain way, there's this process called deschooling, which is really the process of like unlearning all the things that you think, you know, and they say in like the homeschool world, whoever they is, the experts on unschooling, um, are that deschooling is a process that you should do one month for every year of traditional education you've had either for the child or for the parent teaching.
Right? So for me, I had been in school for like 15 years or whatever, so I needed 15 months of unschooling, of like basically doing nothing. And just observing the ways that we were learning and interacting in educational [00:23:00] ways without trying, without like having to like teach a lesson. The all the things that my kids were picking up on, like two of my three kids learned how to read, like playing Minecraft.
Kyley: Yeah.
Kelly: And just like all of a sudden one day could read things from playing video games because again, they wanted to play the video games. They wanted to talk in the text boxes on the servers with their friends. So they figured it out themselves cuz they're smart, right? When they would see in their little like inventories, right?
There'd be like a picture of a carrot and then it would say like, carrot a picture of a block and it would say block. And that's how they learned how to read. And so this deschooling process became really integral kind of to my life. And my entire body of work was like, oh wait a second. You mean we've been taught all of these things about what it's supposed to look like, the way that we did it, the way that we were pushed through the systems, the way we were modeled all of this.
And maybe it's not exactly [00:24:00] true. Maybe this isn't the only way. Maybe there's something that actually feels better, works better, feels more innate, more flowy, just is preferred or is maybe more natural. And maybe all of these ways are. Not so natural. And so that was like the process of like de-schooling and unlearning was something that I really like brought close outside of homeschooling my kids into my own life.
And so it really became this process of like moving through my life, asking myself constantly like, is this true? What could be more true? Is there something else
Eva: say that.
Kelly: that would be better? Like if I got to change this and do it different, how would I wanna do it? And sometimes the answer is like, no, actually I like this.
No, actually this does work [00:25:00] for me. No, actually this is good. And sometimes it's like, who the. Where did I, like whose idea was this? Like why is, as a society, is this the gold standard? Because this is fucked up. Right. And so it was like I went through kind of like all of my
Kyley: Can I add something to
that just about from the, uh, from the Deschooling unschooling perspective, so listeners know that this year my son. Is Inkin kindergarten, although he tells everybody at school, he's like, I would go to kindergarten, but I'm not, like, he's very confused. He doesn't really, he still, he still thinks that he's like in preschool Anyway.
I, but we have done, essentially he goes to, um, nature school three mornings a week, and then we do essentially unschooling in the afternoon, which is like, just play, you're six, you know, like you're six, you don't need whatever you need to learn. Like he's can, he's already reading magic Treehouse books to me, like, kid is fine.
Right? But what has been really wild about it, first of all, I had big plans, [00:26:00] very ambitious person. I had big plans of like, oh, we're gonna like do this curriculum that I'm gonna make up and it's gonna be based on your interest, and we're gonna like, go all in on the different things you're interested in.
But I'm also incredibly ambitious as a business owner, right? And so all of a sudden I was like, oh, actually I and listeners have watched me reveal how like the, I, they got all, I can't do all of these things. And also like, Stand up. Right. And so, um, I have in some ways like for been forced into Deschooling, which has been great because my, uh, viewed this as an experiment all along, right?
Which was just like, it's kindergarten. Like even if we totally crash and burn, you're fine. Um, but one of the things that has been so cool is what you said about like, watching how he teaches himself things. Like, my husband's a much more structured person, so he like has done some like flashcards on for reading with him, but like basically everything is happening because he's just interested and curious and like, [00:27:00] and therefore motivated to, to figure out, you know, like, you know, he'll sit drive in the backseat of the car just like doing crazy math and like talking to me out loud about like math problems or, or whatnot.
Um, and one of the biggest things from me from that, that's been a gift is realizing. As an ambitious person, I am really always like seeking to get somewhere. Like one of my big lessons in life is like, what if you were already there? And also, what if there was fucking nowhere to go? Right. And watching how, like the inevitability of, you know, when your kid is little and learning how to walk, you're like, okay, you're gonna fall down a bunch.
And also learning how to walk is inevitable and I will help you. And also, like, I don't actually, you know, there are certainly kids where like maybe you need to get, uh, you know, extra support, but for the most part you're like, okay, like this is inevitably gonna happen. And watching how, like what I've watched for myself is the expansion of how I might apply that to other [00:28:00] things like reading or math or the, like, realization of my own personal desires or like whatever it is that I'm, whatever it is that I'm seeking.
I can, watching my son's experiment experience in school has helped me really root back into the idea of like, it's all inevitable. So just let go and let it kind of unveil itself for
Eva: Organically. Yeah, organically. Okay. Wait, so I love, okay. Sorry. So many things we could say here. Yes, I love all of this. I just think if I had. Was educated this way, I would be a totally fucking different person because I think school, for me educationally at times was really traumatic because it's like, uh, anyway, I, you know, I'm sure we all have different versions of that.
Um, but I do wanna bring us back to the original question of like, reinventing yourself. So it sounds like you're saying learning to reinvent yourself came from this like unschooling, um, dynamic,
Kelly: Like [00:29:00] the process of like relearning who I am came chiefly from unlearning. Right? Like all of the
Eva: questioning sounds like questioning is kind of like the ground floor. It's like investigating an inquiry. And I love this question, is it true? Cause I ask myself that all the fucking time. It's like the basis of my spiritual practice. And so you like, I really wanna like make this tangible. So you like question and you investigate.
And then from there, then what? Like what, what's the reinvention process?
Kelly: Yeah. So then like once you realize that maybe something isn't the ultimate truth, then it's the quest of figuring out, well, what is, or what is like, maybe not like the ultimate capital T truth for like universal law, but like my truth or what's like the truest thing for me right now. Um, over the process of all of this, I become a big fan of like ideas of like fluidity and just like that things are always [00:30:00] changing, right?
And I, uh, you know, I had to do a lot of work and healing within myself of recognizing that like, I did everything right,
Kyley: mm.
Kelly: even when it was like, I was a raging maniac, or I did wild and crazy things, or things that like maybe probably weren't the best decision or that weren't true for me at all. But I did it because I thought I was supposed to, it was all right because I was doing like the best that I could do with the information that I had at the time and with where I was to get through to survive, to thrive.
Like that was what I was making decisions off of. And so like, yay me, I'm so proud of myself and all of the things that I did, even though I would probably, well, I wouldn't undo it. Like if I got to make that same decision now, I would probably choose differently because now [00:31:00] I have new information. And so it's always like seeking out, like with all of the information that I have now, what is the truest thing for me?
And so like it's been from everything is like a name seeming is like, What are the clothes that I'm wearing? Like what is my personal style? What do I like to wear? What actually feels like me? And what is me trying to fit in, trying to be like on trend because like, that's what the world tells me I'm supposed to be wearing or looking like, or like this is the costume for the part I'm trying to play.
Right. Um, like I always find it really interesting that the word like person and like even like, is obviously related to like persona from like youngi and psychology and stuff like that. Both of those words stem from the word the like Latin, Greek words that mean mask
Eva: Mm-hmm.
Kelly: in the [00:32:00] actual like an actual physical mask that would be worn in a play.
Eva: Mm-hmm.
Kelly: Like not mask to cover, like an actual costume mask. And so we're talking about like our person or our persona. It's literally like a costume we're putting on of like who we're going to play, like the representative of us that we're gonna send out into the world to go play our part. And then like when we come home and we peel all of that off, it's like, who am I then Who am I when nobody's looking?
Who am I when it's like just me? And I had the beautiful gift of getting divorced and having, after a couple of years of having full custody, I had the gift a year ago of being, of switching to 50 50 custody. And I think that this allowed me to do a lot of this work because I have a lot of alone time where I don't have a lot of responsibility where I don't have kids to worry about anymore.
And I.
Eva: [00:33:00] interesting transition like that, that, you know, just a little bit more
Kelly: It was, and I think people think, uh, people are like, that must have been so hearted. I was like, no, is the greatest thing that ever happened to me. Highly recommend. Do not like the, the, the pain of like divorce and like separation and all of that is, I would wish upon nobody, but like actually being divorced and having like half and half custody, like highly recommend.
Eva: I've, I've, I've, I, I've heard good things
Kelly: It's pretty great. My kids are also older now. Like, my youngest is eight, my oldest is 15, she's in high school. And so like, I don't, like, they're all very independent people and like do their own thing and so, uh, it's like, it's not hard. I think when they were little I would not have been able to handle it.
But since they're older and it's been a real gift because I get a lot of time
Eva: But before we, I wanna punctuate something, re something that you said really quickly before we move on this. I'm glad you brought in fashion
Kyley: Oh good. I wanted to, I was gonna interject questions about
Kelly: Yes. Let's go back to [00:34:00] fashion.
Kyley: wanna hear from, I wanna, I have like a question I wanna throw around, but you go ahead
Eva: Oh no. Okay. I, well, I just, okay, let's just, let me just recognize that I think fashion is like a fun, tangible way to kind of play around with this question of like, who am I? And like the ma the representation, how do I wanna put myself out into the world? It's, um, it's, it's, it's, it's easier than going in and like undoing all your demons, you know?
Or like un unlearning everything you've, like, been conditioned to learn. Sometimes it's just like a nice outwardly thing that people can talk to. And also I love, like, I'm not a fashion person, like style, you know, like, like self-expression through style is something I've always really appreciated. But Kylie, what did, what was your question?
I feel like you probably could take this into an interesting place.
Kyley: Well, I, I also got really jazzed that you brought that topic up because I do think it's actually, I think in some ways it's an under-discussed topic in spiritual circles. Right. Especially if we're like trying to, you [00:35:00] know, be above material things or if we're feeling some pressure to, I, I love the eye roll, everybody a plus
Kelly: All of us are like, what?
Kyley: or, but also I think if you're, um, you know, I think a lot of us, maybe especially going back to the teen, but this is really just the teenage podcast, but like, when you're teenage years, you're, I think for a lot of us, fashion feels like, I think that you can get right or wrong, right? Like you have to dress to like, make your body kind of look a certain way and you're trying to blend in while also trying to figure out who you are.
But it's, it's so loaded with figure out who you are within the context of what is already acceptable and safe and will allow you to be liked. Um, So I am actually curious now, we're all, you know, in our late thirties, uh, soon to be 40, and I'm curious for each of you, like, what, do you have moments or experiences of like kind of reclaiming fashion as like, [00:36:00] I'm curious about your relationship with fashion as a way of like playing with power and, and identification.
Eva: Oh my God, I, okay. Kelly, I want you to answer this question, but I just want listeners to know I'm fucking cracking up right now. Cause I know the ridiculous style choices I made in college that were just like, seriously, like what the fuck moments? And what the fuck was I wearing? It was like, I have pictures from the past and they're hilarious.
But also I know why I was doing what I was doing. So I'll, I'll get to that. But Kelly, I would love to hear from
Kelly: Yeah. Yeah, I mean I love fashion and I agree that it's a totally under talked about like topic and also an underutilized way, like a tool, right? We're like also worried about like tapping and meditating and journaling and like all of these like super high spiritual things and it's like actually fashion can be something that's so deeply transformational [00:37:00] in your process of like healing and of getting to know yourself and playing with, like I do a lot of archetype work in my business and in my own like self journey and everything.
And I think that fashion can be such a fun way to play with different archetypes and to ex. Experience different aspects of yourself, of your personality, of your power. Right? Like most of the day, if you catch me like running around, um, like my real life, like town or something like that, I'm probably gonna look like pretty grungy.
Not in like a crunchy unshared way. Like grungy, like grunge, like nineties
Kyley: Nirvana.
Eva: Yeah.
Nirvana, Elastica. Yeah.
Kelly: Yeah. Like you can see I've got like these big dangly cross earrings. I've got like my Carhartt cap on and everything
Eva: I mean, you look like you came, like you're [00:38:00] in Seattle
Kelly: right. My corduroy jacket, right? Yeah. Like very like that is the deal. Um, or I like flip in the spring to very like Princess Diana post divorce bike shorts and like Harvard sweatshirt.
Eva: Love
that
Kelly: shoes is like my, my other look. Um, but like, it's, it's one of those things that it's like, it's comfortable, it's cute. I feel like me, I'm not like a super fancy person most of the time. Like that's just, I'm gonna be like, target over Chanel any day, like, forever. Like, I do not, I, that's not something that's me, but like, I do love to like, put on a fucking well-tailored power suit with like lo, like a teddy instead of a blouse and fucking like, go like eat.
Out on like [00:39:00] the town, like I love to like throw on like a goddess dress and like turn into like every white spiritual woman that ever existed with like my hat. And like, right. Like that's also like a mood in the right place in time. Or sometimes I look to look like I literally just showed up from like a coven meeting, right?
Like I even have run, I have the signature program that I've run three or four times now called Resurrection, which no surprise to anybody listening to all of this is, um, a, a death and rebirth program. And so we start out with a funeral and then we do some integration work, um, where we kind of like lay in the crypt and sit shiva with old versions of ourselves and respect them and love them and eat food and like
Eva: Oh my God, I
Kelly: feel gratitude for ourselves.
And
Kyley: know
sometimes, sorry. You know how sometimes you know some, you meet someone and you like them and you don't know, and then you, you then you actually like get to know them and you [00:40:00] understand why you like them so much. I'm really having one of those moments that's like, oh, now I know why I really click
Kelly: Now I know because she makes her clients do funerals for themselves and like eulogize
Eva: I
Kyley: Literally in villain era on Good Friday, which we didn't realize until afterwards. But in the course I teach called Villain era, we, we, everyone showed up and we were like, great, today is the funeral. And we also hosted a funeral on Good Friday. So yes, I'm a big fan of offing. Everybody in group
Kelly: Yeah. I did it one year during Easter and like really like played into all of that. And then we end with like some sort of like baptism or like resurrection ceremony. I've done a couple different flavors, but typically it is some type of like, Baptist, like self baptism and like reclaiming and declaring and things like that.
And so like for that, I'm like, I encourage costumes. Everyone come. I like show up to the funeral looking like fucking like Morticia Kardashian, right? Like I have like a whole look with like a [00:41:00] fascinator and like a, like the lace bale and like gloves and everything. And then like for the resurrection, like one year I bought this like it was way too expensive for a Zoom meeting cuz it was in 2020.
So I'm like this, I don't know why I spent the switch way, I had this dress like shipped from like Australia. It is like, and I don't know when I will ever wear in real life. It is gold sequence, like head to toe. It gives like fairy dust everywhere you go. It's got like a long cape
Kyley: You need a photo shoot
Eva: I know seriously they used, should
Kyley: You need a photo shoot.
Kelly: I know. I
Kyley: was asking
Kelly: do one cuz I, it's just sitting in my closet like. Putting glitter on everything I own right now. Um, but yeah, like I'm like, I'm big into costumes and archetypes and playing with things. And I think that we get to do that from everything from like going out to dinner on a date with our spouse and like how we wanna feel.
And like, I feel like fashion and like, whether it's clothes or hair or makeup or [00:42:00] whatever, like I'm a firm believer that red lipstick is a mood altering substance and like can just make you turn into a whole other person. Um, I'm like playing with how you present externally to evoke certain aspects of yourself, whether it be in work, in a healing journey, in your everyday life, you know, like, um, And that was when I was exploring my queerness particularly and kind of going through and like deconstructing comp, which for anyone who's unfamiliar is compulsory heterosexuality.
And basically the idea that straight is default and that like anything outside of that is weird. And so we just like, we all are, most of us, at least our generation, not these adorable kids growing up now that I love Gen Z, like my heart, but like we grew [00:43:00] up under the assumption that like we were straight.
Eva: Yeah.
Kelly: was what was expected of us. And there was no real room to, and especially like for me growing up in a conservative Christian background, like there was no room to question that. So like, despite the fact that now all of the signs were there, um, and if anyone wants to find my TikTok, um, I go through all, I have a whole series that's like reasons I should have known I was queer, I somehow just like overlooked and like justified.
Kyley: Well, it's so funny you say that. I mean, I know I was talking to a good friend of mine about this the other day who was going through the process of like coming out as gender queer and we were laughing about how like, oh my God, if I grew up now, right? Like I would've, I would, I would be such a, both of us were saying how like our queerness would be such a different part of our journey.
Because for me it wasn't until, um, like I had distinct memories of being in high school and like knowing that I was attracted to [00:44:00] a woman and being so freaked out about it. And then it wasn't until I met my husband and was like, oh yeah, he's my person that I was like, oh, by the way, I'm super queer. I have like locked down this guy, right?
And like he's my person. And so now I'm safe to acknowledge to the world that I'm a queer lady. And it's just really interesting watching how like, that was my like young niece's journey and I love her for that. And also I, I see how much like, yeah, it just like, The, the self-expression wasn't safe. And now, like, even like when I cut all my hair off, I like texted some of my friends and I was like, oh, thank God.
Now I read as a queer lady, right? Like, it was like important, an important part of me.
Kelly: Now they know.
Kyley: Now they know I'm wearing my leather jacket and my short haircut. I'm not
Kelly: Right. I have a quarter ride jacket on I'm gay. Um, right. But like, it's so interesting how when I really stepped back and I was like, wait a [00:45:00] second, if I'm dressing for like myself, or even for like the female gaze, if I'm no longer dressing for the male gaze, if I'm no longer getting dressed, wondering what men are gonna think about the way I look, what the fuck would I wear
Eva: Oh, I love that question. Yeah.
Kelly: if I wasn't dressing, trying to impress men?
Eva: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
Kelly: like, that was the question. And even if you're, if you know, you're like super, super straight, even though I believe everyone's on the spectrum somewhere, um, I'm like, is anybody actually really all the way straight? Um,
Eva: I truly believe that that's what you think. There's just like repression going on there. You know what
Kelly: right, right, right, right. I like everybody's a little gay.
Kyley: In the same way that I'm really suspicious that neurotypical is a thing. I feel the same way. Like,
Kelly: Same,
Kyley: yeah.
Kelly: same. I'm like, if, uh, like is anybody actually really typical? Like, or is it all again this idea of like, there's fluidity and things are changing and moving and [00:46:00] like all of that. So it's like, it's such a good question to ask yourself. Like, because even if you're socialized as female, even if you identify as a straight cis woman, right, it, you're still so impacted by patriarchy and misogyny and the way that like capitalism and everything, like interplay with that, that it's such a juicy question to start asking yourself in your every days.
Like, if I'm not trying to impress men, what would I do here? How would I dress? How would I wear my hair or my makeup? How would I feel about my body? How would I, like what would I order at the restaurant if I wasn't worried about what the men were going to think about me or what it said about me as a woman?
Eva: Mm-hmm.
Kelly: To make that choice if I'm not constantly like gearing all of my actions and decisions towards approval of men, patriarchy, all of that.
Eva: Mm-hmm. Yeah.
Kelly: And so that's been [00:47:00] like a fun exploration in my, in my fashion to like kind of go back was like, oh, wait a second. If I'm not dressing for boys,
Eva: Yeah.
Kelly: I'm not worried about guys thinking I'm hot,
Eva: Yeah.
And
Kelly: would I actually wear?
Eva: And also, yeah, and then also just not caring about and then you Yeah. And then fanning that out once that's been like, played with also like what if you don't care what anyone thinks, you know, like anybody. Yeah. Um, I do wanna go back to answering Kylie's question though, cuz and then cuz I want you to answer too as well.
Kind this idea of your question was like, how have we found power in our,
Kyley: Yeah. Just like moments in which playing with, with, with fashion has given you an opportunity to play with power too.
Eva: Right. Okay. So yeah, I think it's power and identity. Yeah. And. So for me, so my mom's, I, I have a, a, a, a long, beautiful history, I think with fashion because my mother was a fashionista, so like I really got that from her. And I, some of my favorite pieces are pieces that I've kept from her that, you know, that she wore.
[00:48:00] And I would like, you know, go into her closet and pick through her shit and like, dress up and she'd get mad at me cuz like all her stuff would be like, split all over the place. And, but I definitely, but I also, oh God, I just, it's, I know that I've been influenced by my culture and my time and my environment and sometimes that actually feels kind of fun too.
Like, I just like, I like knowing like what, like there's something about being connected to like a time and a space and, and that's kind of, that's an exploration in itself. But I mean, I was like a mall rat in high school, so I like went, you know, shopped and did the whole clueless thing and went to wet seal and that was really fun.
But I definitely went to college and like, so I grew up in a very Asian environment and. Where I cared a lot about being cool. And then I went to the East coast for college and just like fucking exploded and really wanted to explore a, an identity of being like a rebel. And I wanted to like get out of the box.
And so I was wearing [00:49:00] ridiculous fucking shit. Like just, I don't, and I worked at Urban Outfitters, so I had the discount to like all, you know, these crazy sample
Kyley: Urban was also like peak cool
Eva: it was like peak cool back then. And like you would have these sample sales where you would go and get everything for the dollar.
And I just had all this fucking shit and I was just like mixing and matching. And I looked back and there's like this cringe moment of like, oh, I look ridiculous. But also it was so much fucking fun
and it was such a moment of self-expression and exploration. The only, so now though, where I like. Where I feel like I struggle is that was so much fun, but I feel like I wanna find a way to do it that's not time consuming.
Cuz I feel like right now I just go for like comfort and ease and I think I kind of miss the play that's there. So do you guys, do you guys follow a lo on Instagram? He's, oh my god, his,
Kelly: Yeah.
Eva: ugh, just every like, he's just, so, he's, I mean he just plays [00:50:00] with fashion, style and, and, and dress and I'm so inspired and I'm like, but how do you do that?
Like, where the fuck do you find the time? That's what
I wanna know.
Kyley: Oh, I love this. Okay. Because my share kind of speaks to that. So, um, I, my, when I was younger, a lot of my fashion, I would, I had either had phases of like dressing like a total crazy person, like, like also like very out there, like wanting to be different. And then like a reaction phase where I would be like, everything is from the gap, right?
And like, everything is like, like white, you know, white girl boring. And then like, um, and then they'd be like, really out there. And so I had like a lot of these basically kind of like swings. Um, uh, and then I had kid. And then, so then, so then it was like the phase of corporate where like, you know, you gotta kind of, like, I, I worked with librarians, so it was like, you gotta look professional, but like, not too professional.
Cause then they'll be intimidated by it. They'll be like, sleazy sales lady. So I could be like, [00:51:00] cool artsy salesperson with my librarian customers. And then, um, I had kids and then we were in a pandemic and I was like, oh, I'm wearing like sad yoga pants every
Eva: and then yoga pants became like acceptable and sweats
Kyley: Oh yeah. Right.
Eva: yeah. And so like, there's just this accessibility to comfort, which I think is a good thing. But, sorry, I'm cutting you off. But
also a comment about heels. Like, I fucking loved wearing heels because I think they made me feel sexy and powerful as fuck.
And I also will never wear heels ever again, probably because they are so uncomfortable. So I feel like I'm in this, this, this
contention between wanting to like step into this power, but wanting it to be easy and not expensive. And not like a, not like a huge time suck.
Kyley: So the other piece for me, yeah, I'm all done with heels. But the other thing for me is that, um, I've never been super tiny, you know, I'm a tall woman, but I'm also like just not a, not a super tiny body. And I've had a long story [00:52:00] about how I didn't have the body that could wear certain clothes, right.
Which would even happen. Like I'd go to the store and I would be like, oh, you go right up to like, right, like, you don't have my size, or you have my size and my boobs are too big and this bad boy is not zipping up. And so I had a lot of experiences of like loving fashion and loving interesting clothes and then going to shop and then being like, oh, there's nothing here for me.
And then, but then also like going into like a plus size store, and then those clothes also not fitting, like just being in this kinda like in between
Kelly: Yeah.
Kyley: And so, um, and so a lot of my relationship to fashion was like, Wanting to be like cool and interesting and creative and also basically not feeling allowed or not feeling like I had access.
And that got exacerbated with like, you know, with kids. Cuz then it was also very much like also, I don't have time for this. And also like, I live in the fucking suburbs. Like what am I gonna do? Like I've got all, all I do is walk my baby to Dunking Donuts. Right. And I just had this kind of breaking point in a good way [00:53:00] that was like, to your point of like, what if I'm not doing this for anybody else?
Right. And I just had this moment of like, like I refuse to sell myself short anymore on the fact that I like this body. And I like, like that I get to put interesting clothes on it. And so, yeah, if the only person that sees me is my kid's preschool teacher, guess what? She's gonna get a show. And so I just started like.
Wearing the like $150 dress that I have in my closet that I kept being like, well, that's right. Or like, like the, like fancy things that I had, I just started wearing. And I w at first I felt really uncomfortable, was like, I look so overdressed for like my boring suburban life. Or like, I like these clothes are like, look funny and weird together.
Or like, I'd wearing my like giant feather earrings and it felt really uncomfortable until now it's just like, okay, I might be wearing like gym clothes or I might be [00:54:00] wearing my like, anthropology dresses with combat boots and like, I don't know what the, it's whatever the vibe is gonna be. Um, but that, like, that felt like this really interesting gift of like, I needed to get to a place of like being willing to love my body in order to claim like, yeah, I'm gonna be overdressed on a Wednesday morning and I don't care.
But then also that gift I really anchored in how much I was like, Oh yeah, I really love my body. Oh, do I have ridiculous cleavage? Yeah. Cuz my tits are great. You're welcome everybody. Right? As opposed to like decades of like, oh, I gotta like not, you know, like, um, so
Eva: Yes. Show me them titties.
Kelly: But I feel like that kind of comes back to that idea of like, what is actually, like, is this really true? Cause like you said, like I, I'm gonna be overdressed. What is overdressed? What does that even mean? Who decides if we're over or underdressed for something? Like we have these social categories of like, these clothes [00:55:00] are appropriate for this activity and
Kyley: mm-hmm.
Kelly: for this activity, and this is relegated, this part of your closet is relegated to this kind of thing.
Right? And like, why, who says, and obviously there is like social decorum and things like that. I'm not showing up to a black tie event in like my Lululemon leggings and like a gym, a sports bra, right? And like I'm, I'm being respectful of social norms and things like that. But who says that I can't wear.
Uh, you know, $300 anthropology dresser, like free people dress or something like that. Like just to like go to the grocery store. Who says that? Like, if I wanted to wear like heels and jeans, I'm like, I, me and my friends always joke around because it's like such an early two thousands things to say. We have reinstated the use of the term going out top. Like, what are you wearing to dinner tonight? I don't know. Like jeans in a going out top.
Kyley: Oh my [00:56:00] God, yes, of course. I didn't know that. I didn't know that phase three went
Eva: didn't Exactly. I feel like you're just like you. You just captured a time that I didn't, in a way that I didn't know could be captured. I'm thinking like it's giving like Britney Spears, Paris Hilton vibes.
Kyley: Yes.
Kelly: much so. It's like you've got like your cute jeans and your heels and you're going out top right. And so like, If you, that's what you wanna wear to go pick your kids up from school. Like who cares, who says that you can't? And that's one thing I love about Aoke is that it's like this idea that he brings to like the table that's like, if I wanna wear a motherfucking ball gown to go run errands, who says I can't?
Why? Like where did that rule come from? And I think that like that is another thing where like we get to give ourselves so much permission and like, who says that I can't wear this? Like, why wouldn't we? And like even my friends and I, [00:57:00] my one friend yesterday or a couple days ago, We were talking about, we got tickets to a charity event.
It's an adult prom charity event, which like, obviously I was like, of course, because I'm healing my inner teenager and I had a terrible prom experience. So of course I'm like going back and like redoing it and everything. But we were talking about like, you know, what we were gonna buy and like if I was like, how all, how into this are we going?
Like, are we buying like from dresses? And she was like, yeah, we are. And I was like, why don't we just start like finding charity galas, like in the area and just like buying tickets and going to galas so that we can like do the black tie thing. Like just for fun and like also like we're giving money to good causes and things like that by like buying tickets for, and plates and things like that.
And we were like, cuz we wanna flex that part. Of ourselves that loves to get dressed up, that loves to like do your hair and the makeup and like do the whole [00:58:00] fancy thing that like as a mom, I don't get to do very often. I'm more often in gym clothes than I am in dressy clothes, mostly for function and comfort.
Um, but like I do like to get dressed up and go out. And so I was like, well, let's find the fucking black tie galas and buy tickets and go, because I wanna play with that part of Me too.
Kyley: Okay. First of all, I love this and I'm one now recruiter friend to do the same thing with me, and I also wanna offer, if you are listening and you're like, well, I wish I could do that, like I. I felt uncomfortable for a couple of months. I would, like, I used to never ever, ever, ever, ever wear makeup. And I would start, I started doing makeup cuz I, I felt this desire, right?
And to like, wear the fancy clothes or wear the clothes that seemed, you know, unusual, interesting to put together or put on makeup. And I felt uncomfortable. I felt like I wanted to do it. [00:59:00] And also like, well this is weird, or this is like just me outside my, like, rhythm for years, which had just been like, what is easy, right?
Like my, like I, I have only, I only gave myself access to like easy and safe. Um, and so I just wanna normalize that if you're feeling the pull to play with fashion and identity and also you're a little afraid, like you want, you think, oh, well I can't do it because it doesn't feel comfortable. Maybe it fucking won't feel comfortable.
But also if you wanna do it, it will very quickly, right? Because now it just feels very normal for me to like, Wear whatever the fuck I wanna wear, which now it's just, I have a, I have a broader spectrum of what I feel like I have access to, but it, there were, there were a couple of months where it, it just felt like, look, hey, we're gonna do this.
Let's see if anyone makes a comment. Which of course, nobody did,
but
Kelly: I think that like anytime you're trying anything new or you're pushing your edges, it always feels uncomfortable. I always like to remind myself though, that like nobody cares about me and what I'm doing. [01:00:00] Like even a, a fifth as much as I care and like I, we like to, we're so like, um,
Eva: Self-identified. They
Kelly: egocentric as, as humans that like, we think that like if I am wearing like a, a dress to like go pick up the kids from school, that all the moms and the teachers are gonna be like, why was she so dressed up to just come get her kid?
Nobody fucking cares. Nobody's paying attention. At most, you'll probably get a, like, you look amazing. Oh my God, that dress is so pretty. Like, you look great. Are you coming from somewhere? Like, something like, and you can just be like, like, no, I just really felt like wearing this today. She was calling me from the closet.
Right? Like, that's all like, no, nobody is paying as much attention to you as we like to think that they are.
Eva: And thank God. Right? Like I think that's
Kelly: right. Thank God. And like, I mean that in the best way that like, do you, because like it's your life. Like you get. Y. It's [01:01:00] about you being happy, you feeling expressed, like you feeling good and confident about yourself.
And like sometimes in order to find that confidence, we have to be willing to go through the wonkiness and like the unsureness of stretching through and like that's where this conversation can really become like a personal development work, like a self journey. It's like, yeah, it's just clothes or just makeup or just hair, but like it's not, if you want it to be like a deep spiritual journey, it can be if you're willing to go there and play with your edges,
Eva: Okay. So, ugh, I, sorry. I love this so
Kyley: I ask?
Eva: much. Oh,
Kyley: I have a question for you, Eva, but you have a question.
Eva: Okay. Well, okay, let me just share, I'm gonna share really quickly about how this is like showing up for me because I'm
in this space of transition right now. So this is why this conversation is so juicy to me because I, Kelly, just for, [01:02:00] just for you to know, I, like, I've worked with my partner and moved to a new city and I'm starting fresh and it does feel like this playground of newness, and so I'm like, oh, this is the conversation that I needed and, and my Capricorn brain is coming in with just some logistics of what I wanna share.
In case this is helpful for anyone, is that, so I'm living in an Airstream trailer right now, so Minimalization is like, min is is important to me. Like that was part of the reason I made this move. I'm like, I wanna live a more simple life. And that feels like it could be in contention with also like, wanting to like explore fashion and blah, blah.
Cause I don't have a lot of space for things. So really what I'm taking away is like, oh, I know this is my chance to like splurge on like the one or two or three things that are like, really nice. Let me get that fucking sequence dress, you know, let me get that dress
Kyley: Yes.
Eva: and play around. And cuz the thing is I don't wanna have a lot of stuff.
I'm also really conscientious of fast fashion,
Kelly: Yeah.
Eva: like freaks me out. So, so I'm like, there are ways to do this. I'm like, I'm like, this is a spiritual journey also in like, investing in things that are timeless and also going thrift shopping and using like, [01:03:00] and, and being resourceful. And I'm like, this can be, I dunno, that to me sounds fun.
And so I'm like, okay, I'm, I'm just getting really jazzed about this whole, like all the possibilities
Kelly: Yeah. Yeah, and I think like something I've been trying to work towards because like I own an obscene amount of clothes, mostly because I've had a lot of body changes over all of the years, and I am one of those people that just like cannot let go of old things. Like I have this like pair of jeans that I bought in like 2009 from Old Navy that were just my favorite fit ever.
They're a size four. I am not, I have not been for quite some time now, why do I hold onto them? Because maybe one day in like 2050 I will be a size four again. Like so like I have, like I need to, I'm in the process of hiring someone to come in and like help me. Part ways with all of the things that my adorable little brain will just not let me
Eva: I will say girl, that that's also a spiritual experience like I
Kelly: It is
Eva: and like, [01:04:00] and,
Kelly: right. And so what I'm wanting and planning to move towards is more of like a capsule wardrobe where I do have those really timeless staple pieces, right? Like you need those genes, you need those like black dress pants, you need those like white tees, you need the B blouses, the blazers, like what are those really like staple pieces And then mixing in right like the like and doing like a lot of, like more like thrifting and stuff of the more like fun or trendy or funky pieces which can then like be re thrifted and like swapping out that kind of seasonally.
And as things change, like I. By Thrifted I give Thrifted. Right. And like staying more in that cycle while having like the staple pieces, which like is gonna hopefully keep the number of garments I own down while allowing me to [01:05:00] still feel like I am staying current with what is feeling good for me and like moving through.
Um, but yeah, like that is a challenge, but I find that like, I'm having so much fun, even with like accessories and like hats and things like that, which can like, just really change a mood of an outfit.
Eva: Yeah.
Kelly: Um, and like using that more to play with making, I mean like, I just have on like a t-shirt and like a jacket, but like earrings hat, like gives it a whole different feeling.
Eva: Um, Kai, did you, did I answer your question?
Kyley: You did really, that was what I was gonna ask is like, what does it look like for you to like, Broaden the scope of play and creativity with fashion. That is also easy. So, yeah. Yeah. I think, oh, go ahead. Love
Eva: I was gonna, maybe I just wanted to, so Kelly, what I love about this conversation is I feel like we just had this whole awesome [01:06:00] conversation about fashion. And that's only, I feel like, and, and, and you're, and you're like, and I feel like so much of your work is about other stuff too, that we didn't even get to get to, which just shows the breadth, I think of your experience and your knowledge.
That's how, how I'm kind of reading into this, right? Because I thought we were gonna have a conversation about like slow living and like, you know, fuck you, capitalism
Kelly: that's where I thought we were gonna go, but like, uh,
Kyley: our teenage.
Kelly: the spirit led us.
Kyley: Our teenage selves. Were like, no, we wanna talk about clothes and C3 phones.
Eva: Yeah.
Kelly: like that's so much of the process though, and like so much of the work is being like, no, I don't wanna do that. That's not what I wanna talk about. Like honestly, I've been in this phase where like I just wanna like, I don't know if you guys remember, there's this like old YouTube video, like back when YouTube videos went viral and like not tos and things of this like kid being like, I just wanted to, I just wanna do [01:07:00] hoodrat things with my hoodrat friends.
Like, do you guys remember that? It was like a whole thing. And like I feel like I am like living this kid's energy right now where I'm like, fuck, I don't wanna do anything. And like I'm back in school, I'm like back enrolled in college because also healing younger versions of me is like decided to go back to school.
But like Saturday night, I was like, Studying for a test. I had the ta, the Taylor Swift Aris tour live streaming on my phone on TikTok, and I'm just like screaming, you belong with me. While like answering questions about environmental science and like hitting my weed vape and like hanging as like my kids, I'm like whispering into the microphone and like just like, like living my best fucking life.
Like eating like fucking, oh my God. I found li literally the universe is meeting me in this journey because I found the other day, this is so off topic,
Eva: Good. Let's go.
Kelly: but [01:08:00] maybe it'll be the thing that br that brings us home. Um, I found at 7-Eleven Sour Patch Cherries. Which those were my favorite candy in high school.
I used to buy them every day at lunch at the student union, and then they like disappeared. I never saw them again after I graduated high school and left that student union. I never saw them again. And I've searched high and wide for them for nearly 25 years
Kyley: Oh
Kelly: I graduated high school. And they like didn't exist anymore.
Like they like got rid of them. There's
Kyley: They were waiting. The
Kelly: there's kids. And then fucking like three days ago I'm in 7-Eleven getting a giant super big gulp diet coke because I'm healing my inner teenager. And I was like, I think I need a little snack. And I walked over to the candy aisle and sure as shit limited edition sour patch cherries.
And I was like, this is proof that Jesus loves me. Like this is like, I don't know [01:09:00] what like this is. So I was just like eating. I was like, Studying and jamming and eating my sour patch cherries. And I was like 19, but like healthy and happy and like loving it. And like every piece of it was by choice, you know?
And even like going back to school has been such an interesting experience, being there by choice. And I'm not going because like, I wanna like reroute my career or even because like, I wanna like boost up my career and get new skill sets to help me like advance in my coaching practice or anything like that.
I'm literally going because it's fun. Weird,
Kyley: Yes.
Kelly: weird. Who goes to college for fun? I do apparently because I'm actually enjoying. The process of like learning, and I'm actually learning to enjoy the structure of having assignments and [01:10:00] deadlines and things, but being able to interact with it from a place of, I choose this because it is stimulating for me as opposed to, I'm here because this is what I have to do in order to be successful.
Like, I'm already successful. I brag I, that might sound like bitchy or whatever, but like I, yeah, but like I'm already successful. Like I don't need to do this. I don't need to go and like get degrees or anything like that. Like I'm good, but I'm doing it because it's interesting to me and it's stimulating for me and it like tickles a piece of my brain and like that is just, it's such an interesting experience doing it a second time by choice as opposed to, because like if I don't do this, then I'm a failure at life.
Eva: Mm-hmm. Yeah.
Kyley: Oh.
Eva: Woo.
Kyley: I wanna add one thing just to underscore that, because one of my, and I also can [01:11:00] reconnect it to fashion. Cause one of my big shifts that I have made over the past, well ever since I started actually wearing the clothes that I like for my closet, is whenever I'm buying something new, I only buy something if I fucking love it.
And the other day I was like, my kids are really cute. They really love going shopping with me cuz it's not a thing I do very often. And every time I put something on they're like, you need that. It's really, they're like the best fan
Eva: That's so, cute.
Kyley: they're like, mama, you need that one. But I always say to them, they're like, look, mom has one room, would you go shopping?
I only buy things that I really, really love. Like if I kind of like it, I don't buy it. Because for so long I bought things that were like trying to like, oh well, like this, like this, this could work. Or this like makes my, this part of my body look the right way or right. It was like all
Eva: $15, so like, you know, you'll, you'll. Yeah, you'll like, just can have, you'll concede in ways that you don't need to. Yeah.
Kyley: Yes. And I think maybe that's one of the things that our teenage self, you [01:12:00] know, uh, like the, our liberated teenage self knows best is like, put your joy front and center and make choices from the place that's like, oh, am I going to school or buying this shirt or eating these sour cherries or like living in an Airstream trailer cuz I fucking want to Yes, no other reason required.
Um, and I love that for all of us.
Eva: Oh,
Kelly: Yeah. That just like reminded me of like a time I went grocery shopping and I bought a cake, like one of like the pre-made birthday cakes outta the cooler. I just like bought it and brought it home. My kids were like, why is there a birthday cake? I'm like, because I wanted cake, and I was like, no. I'm like, this is a life.
Changing lesson that everyone needs to learn. It doesn't need to be a special occasion. It doesn't need to be somebody's birthday. If you want a cake, buy a cake and eat the cake. If you wanna wear the dress, don't wait for an event. Put on the dress, go wear it. You wanna like downsize and move [01:13:00] to an airstream?
Great. Go do it. You wanna fucking eat candy and diet Coke and spend your Saturday night watching Taylor on TikTok? Fucking do it. Like who cares? Like be happy.
Eva: yeah. I
will
Kelly: brings you joy? Like what makes you happy? Like just do it cuz like nobody else
Eva: cause I mean that, what's the fucking point? Like, you know, what's the point? If we're not here to like do that, then, then we're kind of missing the point and then you'll be dead, you know?
Kyley: Yes.
Kelly: Right. And then you'll be dead. And like everyone will have thought you were such a good girl. Or like you did such a good job. Like there's no trophy. That's like you did such a good job falling in line.
Eva: Yeah,
Kelly: Like at the end of life, like, and so why are we acting like there is like
Eva: Yeah, I'm, I'm glad you brought up the buy a cake thing. Cause I will say I love food. I think people who Kylie, you know, probably know this about me, like pe I love food and so going to the supermarket can actually be kind of stressful sometimes because whatever, it's a whole thing. But also it is a [01:14:00] source of joy for me cuz it is a place where I go where I'm like, I'm gonna fucking buy like this splurgy thing and buy the expensive whatever, salmon or whatever it is.
Like joy is very, food is very joyful for me. But I will say like you are just bringing back like high school junior high vibes and I'm gonna go buy like a pack of hot, flaming hot Cheetos and like an orange juice. Like that combination is my adolescence. And I'm like, I'm just feeling this energy of like, I of celebration.
So thank you for gifting that to
Kelly: Yeah, like homework for everyone listening and for all of us, go to your nearest gas station or 7-Eleven and get that drink in that snack that you haven't had in like 10 or 15 or 20 years. Like go get that sobi iced tea and like with the lizard on it
Eva: Oh man.
Kelly: and like in like, enjoy yourself.
Eva: yeah. Ah, well I think that's like a beautiful, like, way to segue into [01:15:00] joy.
Kyley: yes, yes. Kelly, what's something bringing you joy right now?
Kelly: I Sour patch cherries are definitely bringing me joy right now. I mean so many things, but that's one.
Kyley: I, perfect answer. Nailed it. How about you? My love.
Eva: Um, what is bringing me joy? Let me give myself a second to think about this. Um,
I mean, I guess it's coming. It's like the first thing that's coming to mind. So I'll just say this. Sunshine in the morning, like
intentional sunshine in the morning. Um, I mean, I could say so much about that, but I mean, I don't know. There's like all these studies about how like getting sunlight first thing in the day is like really good for your circadian rhythm and it like does all these things for your body, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah.
And I have been in this habit of going to sleep really late, which I hate. I, I, I can't, I mean, that's my na I think I'm naturally a night owl, but I just know I feel [01:16:00] better when I go to sleep early and wake early. And so the whole thing is like getting out into the sun first thing in the morning if you can, because it'll like adjust your system.
And just being like, so even it's like two or three minutes, which is being really intentional about morning sunlight feels really fucking good. So that's bringing me joy.
Kelly: Uh, life changing. I've been doing morning walks for like thir, like ba My block is really long. I live in like a weird place, so to go like down to the corner and back is like a mile even about, so it's like perfect. Um, so like, yeah, I've been like waking up and like making my morning greens and like throwing on.
I just like go in my sweats, whatever I slept in and like walk to the corner and back while I like, check in on my clients and like do some boxers and things like that. And it's been like so nourishing.
Eva: that sounds really nice. I feel like, yeah, I don't prioritize like that morning outside time enough, but, cause I'm always like meditation and I, [01:17:00] I'm like meditating, but, okay. Anyway, Kylie, what is bringing you Joy? I.
Kyley: You know, I think reading, I don't really talk about. Reading is my joy very often, but I'm a big reader. I.
Kelly: Yeah.
Kyley: I think I should form the show that reading's a really good litmus test for my mental health. If I'm not reading at all, it's a really good sign that I'm not taking good care of myself. Um, because it's just, it's just the thing that falls away.
And so if I notice that I'm not reading, um, then it's like, okay, let's like regulate our nervous system and reprioritize and, um, anyway, I have just been, uh, yeah, really prioritizing reading. And like this morning I had like Mondays or my time where I don't have kids, so it's usually day where I'm like, oh, I'm gonna work on my business.
And I love it and I often really liked that time. But instead this morning I drove [01:18:00] to a Barnes and Noble, got myself a latte, read the book on my Kindle for 50 minutes, and then bought a new book and then came home and it was just like the most fun two hours of just like, Me and books in my happy place, and
Eva: I do know that when you're reading, you're in a good place. So that's good to hear. Can I ask
what you're read? What, what
Kelly: was gonna say, can I hijack your podcast and can the actual last question be what is everyone reading
Kyley: Oh,
sure. Yes.
Kelly: Am I allowed to hijack?
Kyley: I love
Eva: I mean, I love the audacity. Yes. Bring in such a good question.
Kyley: Again, with the Teenage Out was like, I got shit to say. Everyone's gotta listen. Um, so I love like speculative fiction, like fantasy, a good ad, like a, a good world building adventure, um, is just like always like that is my bet. Bread and butter, right? Like I have a master's degree in literature, like I can be high brow and also at the end of the day when it is 10 o'clock at night and I wanna read, I wanna read a book about [01:19:00] Girls and dragons.
Eva: yes.
Kyley: So I am reading two books right now. I am reading, um, This book called Jade City, which is very fun. Um, this like world building, um, it's set in like an, it's like in an alternative world, but it's like very similar to our current world in like an Asian city where there's this, on this island where they have this like magical jade that has, gives everybody mystical powers, but only some people can like use it.
And so the rest of the world wants it. And it's very, very, it's very well thought out world. And so I'm really enjoying that. That's very fun. And then the other very nerdy book that I'm reading is a book called, um, thought Leadership or Thought Leaders or something like that, that, um, was recommended to me, um, by my former mentor who passed away.
His business partner recommended this book to me. And so, um, and I'm also really loving that and it's really [01:20:00] refreshing from the like step outside the Instagram matrix and also like, Build a big impre, like build a big footprint that changes the fucking world. So those are the two tho, those are really my vibes is like change the whole world and also,
Kelly: Girls and Dragons, then Girls and Dragon,
Eva: it. Love it. Um, okay, I'm gonna answer this question next, Kylie. You actually are the one who, who has given me permission and inspired me to read more fiction. Cause a while ago you were like, I was, you know, I. I love learning. And so it's really easy for me to get into like, what a self-help, like, give me a self-help book.
I used to really like them and now I'm like, ugh. It's just too much information. So I've been go diving into eviction and when I moved here I could, I only want, could had space to bring a couple of books. And one of them that I brought, I'm also in between many books cuz that's just the way my brain works.
But, um, I brought High Fidelity. Are you guys
familiar with High Fidelity? Right. So High Fidelity was also the movie with John Cusack. I brought it because it's a book about breakups and I just broke up with my partner [01:21:00] and um, that's just been a really fun read, even though now I'm realizing the command character is actually just an, like a total misogynist asshole.
But still it's dated, but it's still a great book, especially if you love pop culture. Um, and I'm also reading, I think I'm constantly just have braiding sweetgrass like on the side and
I just kind of pick it up and like, It's okay. You guys do Yes, yes. To Rating Secret, because you're making Kelly's making, making moves
Kyley: I've only heard
Kelly: one of the best books ever written,
Eva: Yeah. I mean, it is, uh, it's a fucking spiritual experience reading that book, but it, it's also, I feel like I have to be in a certain place and it's so moving that I can't just like read it all the time. And so it feels like a sacred practice when I pick up this
book.
Kelly: is a sacred text.
Eva: Yeah. So there's that. And also I've been listening to, this is like my second go around of listening to Harry Potter before I go to bed because it just like calms me down and it's like this nice, I love falling, [01:22:00] listening to like bedtime stories, so that's, I'm not reading, but, but that is story in my life.
Kyley: But I
Kelly: Yeah. Oh, I love that. Okay, so first of all, I just have to say braiding sweetgrass, I highly recommend to anybody and everybody should be required reading for humanity. Also, highly recommend the audio book because having her like read it to you is something that is like, such a spiritual experience, like that is a meditation in and of itself.
So highly recommend that. So I'm typically reading three books at a time. Um, a non-fiction of fiction and an audio. So my non-fiction right now is called Church of the Wild, and it's basically about like finding God in the wilderness and in nature. Um, Yes, I am really, really enjoying it. And it's actually written by a woman who was like an ordained minister and actually started like a Church of the Wild in Ojai, California.
And there's like supposedly in the back of the book, which I obviously haven't gotten to yet cuz I'm still reading it. There's like, if you wanna start your own church in the [01:23:00] wild, and I'm like
Eva: Yeah, let
me
know if you do that,
Kelly: coming to Michigan sometime soon, right? Like I wanna go like do weird, I'm like a hundred percent, like let's go frolic off into the woods and do weird things like with my friends.
So I'm like very interested in that. And then my audiobook that I'm listening to right now is Paris, A memoir by Paris Hilton.
Eva: Yes.
Kelly: right, obviously, right? Like with the healing the inner teenager, again, like this book is fascinating. It is everything that I have long suspected about Paris Hilton being that like the, uh, the persona that we know of her, like the, like that's hot, like simple Life ditzy party, hes was like always a character that was not who she actually was.
Um, and hearing her experiences of what it was like growing up, being her, being sent away to [01:24:00] like, I. Teenage wilderness boot camps for like unruly teenagers and the abuses that she, um, underwent and everything and be building her own like billion dollar brands and things like that, um, is actually really, really fascinating.
It's narrated by her, so it's really fun to listen to. It's totally shocking. It's not at all what you would, you would think it based on Paris Helton, it would be like the shallow vapid kind of thing, and it's really not. She's actually really, really smart and well educated and um, yeah. So I'm really liking that as well.
Um, and yeah, I didn't even realize that. Like of course that's what you're reading right now. And then my fiction book that I'm reading is called After sfo. Um, and it is a, I just started it, so I'm like not too deep into it, but it's like a fictional [01:25:00] kind of like weaving of a lot of like famous and infamous and like mythological women.
Um, obviously with like, uh, interwoven with the writings of Sappho and uh, heavy SIC lens,
Eva: Ooh, love it.
What'd you say that.
one was
called.
Kelly: we love after Sappho,
Eva: I'm writing all this stuff down. Love it.
Kelly: right? I'm like, so everybody write these down and send them to me.
Kyley: Um, okay, Kelly, first of all, I'm gonna start asking guess what they're reading more. Um, where can people follow you? How can they work with you?
Kelly: Yeah, so you can follow me on Instagram or TikTok where I'm not super active right now. I go through fits and sports with TikTok cause I don't really use it for work where I'm like promoting work. I use it more for my own fun and expression. So TikTok is a place where you're gonna see me talk a lot about being queer, Taylor Swift, um, which is like my [01:26:00] eternal hyper focus is. Taylor Swift. Um, she's like 50% of my personality is my love of her. Um, and so like that's just like fun for work stuff. More so on Instagram. Um, both are at Kelly Mahalick and yeah, working with me right now. Uh, I have a limited amount of space for one-on-one clients. If you're wanting to like really like dive into some of this work and go really deep, I also have a program coming up soon.
Um, it will be starting, I think it's either the last week in April or the first week in May, um, called Bloom, which is my spring program. I do four seasonal programs. Where we also invoke like the archetypes. And so bloom is spring. It is the archetype of a maiden. And, um, I've been [01:27:00] really feeling called to address this part of the maiden that we talk about here, which is like the young, the carefree, that like inner teenager, basically everything we've talked about today, um, you know, that we don't often attend to because we think of made in energy as more like follicular as more productive, as more like creative.
But like we tend to neglect all of the, like the adolescence and the, the blooming process that you have to go through before you got to that like final like creative productivity. And so, um, instead of focusing on just like that, like the maiden's, the one that gets the shit done, it's like, well first the maiden has to go fuck around and find out.
Eva: Yes.
Kelly: you wanna fuck around and find out, then come to my Instagram and find the information on Bloom.[01:28:00]
Eva: Love it.
Kelly: puck around, and find out.
Kyley: Perfect.
Eva: Awesome.
Kyley: was so much fun. Thank you.
Kelly: Thank you for having me. And also Eva to like, I know we thought this is going in a different direction, so also fuck capitalism,
Kyley: Yeah,
Kelly: just in case it needed to be said.
Eva: Yeah. I mean, that's what so much of this podcast is about anyway, so I think people, yeah, people are, people get it.
Kelly: Yeah.
Kyley: yeah. Um, thank you. Thank you. Thank you. This was such a delight.
Kelly: Thank you.