This week we're re-airing an episode with one of Eva's favorite meditation teachers, Spring Washam! Spring is an acclaimed meditation teacher, medicine woman, and author of The Spirit of Harriet Tubman: Awakening from the Underground.
This week we're re-airing an episode with one of Eva's favorite meditation teachers, Spring Washam! Spring is an acclaimed meditation teacher, medicine woman, and author of The Spirit of Harriet Tubman: Awakening from the Underground.
We discuss:
The role of integrity in our spiritual lives as a way to plant seeds of happiness for ourselves and others
Spring’s experiences blending a dedicated Buddhist practice with shamanic work
Spring’s time spent living in the jungle of Peru, learning from indigenous people, working with plant medicine, and the mystical nature of her life there
Harriet Tubman as an ancestor to inspire fearlessness, and the powerful way she’s showing up for Spring
Eva: [00:00:00] Welcome to Hello Universe, a podcast about spirituality in our everyday lives. We're your co-hosts,
Kyley: Kyley and Eva?
Eva: Welcome to Hello Universe. I'm Kyley. And I'm Eva. And what's up Kyley? How are you doing today?
Kyley: Uh, what you don't know, listeners, is that we recorded Jo, that
back and forth like
Eva: five times. Yeah. We're laughing because this is the practiced version here. Yes,
this is, this is us with
Kyley: Finesse. Yes. Oh,
Let's get to introducing you two today's interview because this is so [00:01:00] good. Today's guest is just like such a magical human being. Um, so one of the things Eve and I talk about sometimes on air and, and often off air, is the way in which we, you know, I come from this mystical.
I come to spirituality from mysticism and Eva comes to it from meditation and the way that those work together and overlap and also like stretch one another. And so we were so excited when the spring agreed to be on the show because she is both, she's been meditating for 20 years and she's a medicine woman who like lived in Peru and like travels there all the time and, um, and has such a like rich, grounded, expansive way of holding space for these two really meaningful, beautiful spiritual traditions.
Um,
Eva: yeah. And so I was particularly like, [00:02:00] so. Thrilled, um, and honored when she's agreed to be on our podcast cuz she's like a very well known meditation teacher. She's a a big deal guy. Yeah, she's a big deal. She's a big deal. And, but you know, so she's like a meditation teacher in this, in, in the States and this like western world that we live in, but also brings in like the elements of like the sh shamonic work, which sometimes can feel like they're at odds with each other or, that was my perception until we had this conversation and she really showed us all the ways in which they compliment each other, um, you know, in her life and in her work.
And I was really inspired by that. So I'll let you read her bio. So, uh, spring Washum is a meditation teacher, author, member of the teacher's council at Spirit Rock Meditation and a medicine woman. And I would say we spend the whole, we, we do a pretty good job of covering a lot of those things through this podcast.
Yeah. So we co we've made some
Kyley: ground in this one, so, yeah. Um, this is like, just, [00:03:00] I think I say this every time, but truly this is a special episode, so enjoy. All
Eva: right. Hello Spring. Thank you so much for
Spring: joining us today. Oh, I'm, I'm happy. This seems like we're gonna have a lot of fun. Indeed.
Eva: We are. So, uh, the first question that we ask all our guests is, what does spirituality mean to you and how does it show up in your everyday
Spring: life?
Yeah, you know, I thought about that question. Um, I read it that you send that to all the guests and, and it's probably so interesting how everyone answers that, but I would say for me, how I answer that is integrity. That I live with a sense of deep ethics. You know, it's like right is right and wrong is wrong, and we know it.
You know, and I, when I say I'm on a spiritual path, I'm on the path of planting seeds of happiness and, and knowing what causes pain I don't wanna do anymore. And I'm aware of that. And for me, uh, [00:04:00] ethics and, uh, integrity and my word and honesty, they're everything to me. That's like, what's the core of the foundation of it all right there?
If you don't have that, you're missing a fundamental piece on this journey. Um, so that's what it means to me.
Kyley: I love
Eva: that answer. Me too. I love it because it's, I love it when people give a really simple answer to something that can seem really complex. Mm-hmm. But what you're saying, I think really breaks it down to its bare bones.
Um, which I'm actually a little bit, I think you're absolutely correct. Like I 100% agree with you, but I think oftentimes people think of spirituality as almost, um, when we think about ethics, we think about religion. I think oftentimes, or this like this, I don't know. It can be, it can be wrapped into others more black and white things.
But I've never actually heard anyone talk about spirituality as ethics before or integrity, and I think, hmm. That actually makes a lot of sense.
Spring: You, yeah. Oh, sorry. [00:05:00] Go ahead. Oh, no, Kyley. You know,
Kyley: you mentioned, um, that integrity for you is like the, it shows up as knowing what causes pain. And, and I'm curious for you, how does that knowing arise, right?
Cause I feel like that's one of the things people grapple with is, um, Is what they know to be true for themselves versus what is kind of an external knowing that's being put on them. So how does it show up for you that you're like, this is my truth, this is me in integrity?
Spring: Well, I think I've learned when I didn't listen to it.
Mm-hmm. And the regret. Mm-hmm. You know, when they say that, that you use that, that phrase eaten by regret or eaten like that, that feeling of, oh, and I can't take it back and maybe I've done something, I've said something I've acted inappropriately, um, or my actions, uh, in some way. And I just don't like that feeling of regret anymore.
I decided that out of, to remove that feeling from my life, I will just be really mindful and [00:06:00] it's really self-love. I don't wanna feel that terrible feeling. I've had hours, days, weeks. You know, as you become more sensitive and you're walking with more mindfulness, that regret really hurts. And it's not guilt or shame.
You don't let it get to that. But you, you just recognize what behaviors are in alignment with who you are and, and what's not. And you know, when you and, and just get, the more you get to know yourself and more, you'll feel when you're out of bounds, you'll immediately next day, next moment, uh, the heart.
Yeah.
Kyley: Yeah. The words are coming out of your mouth. You can feel the authenticity of them. Yes.
Eva: Yeah. I actually think that's so true. I, there's this quote that I'm gonna butcher, but this idea of like, anytime we do, there's like judgment or something just kind of gross is put out there. We always pay the price in our own psychic discomfort because there you, we kind of know there's that like, kinda like you said, there's that little like, ugh, it just feels gross.
And it almost is a, it gets reflected back to us [00:07:00] where we're like, I know that didn't feel good, but I do think that it takes a level, certain level of self-awareness cause. Uh, self-awareness I think is really the key for so much. And the greater your self-awareness is, or the deeper it goes, it's easier for you to notice that you're getting that pain of grossness right back.
Spring: Yeah. You start to feel unhappy or you get that reflected immediately, and I think the more you're, you're kind of walking this path, the longer you go. It's an immediate. Reflection. It's like a boomerang effect. Yeah. You put it out and it gets, com starts to reflect faster, wake up, wake up, I am you. So you might be attacking this person or doing this, and immediately there's this hurt that you feel, or discomfort, or you just feel depressed about something.
You know, I wish I could have done that differently. Or the backlash or, you know, there's. Always these things that we have to process, which is like tangles, right? So I might as well just put [00:08:00] out a certain frequency because it's less tangled, it's more of who I am and it makes me happier too. Mm-hmm. So, but we, we do have to become aware of that.
And I, I think for a lot of the communities, you're absolutely right, this idea that their spiritual lives are devoid of ethics. That I do whatever I want cuz I, I feel that I'm gonna do that. So they start crossing on these boundaries mm-hmm. In their spirit of I need to be seen, I need to feel, I need to do this.
And then other people are getting stepped on hurt and your need to express or feel and it's just becomes a very unconscious Yeah. And the perpetuation of that unconsciousness. So it's not a bad thing to be at that stage. It, it means that it's a, it's a longer journey around the mountain than if you, if you abide by some sense of ethics, like, I'm not going to lie, I'm not going to take what's not given to me.
Mm-hmm. I'm just not gonna use my sexuality in ways that harm, no matter how I'm feeling in the moment, you know? Yeah. I'm not gonna [00:09:00] get all these intoxicants and do this thing that happens every time I drink two bottles of wine. Oh, well, you know, we just have to stop. Mm-hmm. Yeah. Stop. Stop. Like, wait, not out of like, I'm gonna, someone's gonna hurt me, or there's a, somebody like a God figure who's gonna strike me.
It's your own sense of I don't like this feeling waking up tomorrow like this. Mm-hmm. You know, you get tired of that suffering.
Kyley: Yeah. It's almost like the image that I have as you're talking is of like a pendulum swing. Right. It's like a, you know, the, the. The, like, the kid with really, um, strict parents that goes to college and is like, woohoo.
You know, like we go from this notion of a really strict set of rules, maybe from organized religion, and then we think we got swing over to the space of spirituality that's like, oh, I get to like, do
Spring: everything.
Eva: Yeah. Cause I'm free. Free, I'm a soul. Yeah. I'm stolen, streaking through the quad.
Kyley: And that it's [00:10:00] just like, it's with when we remove judgment, like it's just like, it's just, it's a phase that's beautiful and valuable.
And also like there's an invitation to kind of come back to a, to come to some kind of center.
Spring: Uh, 15%. Yeah. And I think it's really, it's about to grow. In that moment, right? The first phase of spirituality is me, me, me, me, me, me, me, me, me, me. I'm, I need to express, I need to feel, I need to heal. I need, I, I, I, and that's a beautiful stage, but I think as we get more mature and we start to get like, okay, this road is about service and deep compassion and a voice for good, we get more power.
It becomes, we, and our actions don't become repressive. They become mindful and caring. Right. Our, our movement doesn't, it, it, it's not coming from a, oh, like I'm being oppressed, so I'm not gonna, you know, act out like this. We just know what's right for us. Mm-hmm. And we're thinking of our impact on others.
Is this helpful? Yeah. Right. [00:11:00]
Eva: Yeah. I mean, I wasn't, I didn't expect to get into this like, so early in the podcast, but I, but I, but I do think this really speaks a lot to also social justice issues. And I think, I don't know, spring if I heard you talk about this in a podcast we were on, but this idea of like, If I, if there's EQU inequality, if I'm hurting other people with like biases, racism, whatever, I'm hurting myself, like there's literally no connection and someone else's liberation is also my liberation.
So I do think. Yeah. In that way, spiritual practices, like when you, we, when you we're able to see that we actually are all connected, we understand that hurting other people is in fact hurting, hurting ourselves.
Spring: Yeah. And that, and that view of interconnectedness, we talk about it a lot, right? We're like, we're a one unity.
And I think we get it on a, a mental level. We do, we understand like single source, we're all part of the universe, you [00:12:00] know? Mm-hmm. And that, I think is true, but to start to, um, really understand it on deeper levels. And I, I think this really comes from my years of working in the jungle with plant medicines and ceremonies and being on the land.
And I've had so many experiences of that oneness, um, being one with the whole jungle, the earth, you know, all the plants, the whole forest, we're breathing with each other. That that has gone so deep almost in my d n a. Mm. That is, so when I'm talking to people, it's very hard for me to come from the dualistic perspective.
Mm. Even though, you know, and so I know people feel like I'm so different than them. So they could hurt me or my family or, you know, they, we, we perceive that, you know, we have to believe that. But um, but yeah, we, it, it's a, I think a progress of insight to start to understand interconnectedness, inter being, these are core Buddhist principles, you know, how we see the universe.
It's a, you know, everything we're doing is [00:13:00] affecting, you know, everything else. It's like the butterfly effect, you know, maybe not so dramatically, but who knows sometimes, you know. So,
Kyley: can I ask you, actually, I think this was like a good moment to ask you to tell a little bit of your story, because I know our listeners are like, okay, well this woman lived in the jungle.
Like, I wanna know, I wanna know who she is. So could you just walk us through a little bit? Who Spring is and sort of how you got to this moment in your, in your life, you know, in, in the next, in the next, you know, five minutes.
Spring: Yeah. Really condensed. Like it all started when I was five and then I'm here for three hours.
No, no. It really, you know, I mean, like many people I grew up in urban environment. It was, my mother was white, my father's African American. They had all these dramas and traumas, they broke up and there was just, you know, growing up, seeing all the suffering, you know, single mother and struggles and the people around and that really propelled me early on to.
Um, thinking about [00:14:00] things deeper, like why are, is everyone so upset? Mm-hmm. You know, why are people drunk outside at nine o'clock in the morning? Like, why are, like, what is causing this? Mm-hmm. So I had a very deep reflective side, but nobody around me could really help me. My mother was just, life's a bitch, then you die.
I don't know, don't ask me questions, I gotta go to work. You know, that was all I ever got, you know? Mm-hmm. So I understand that, you know, and so, um, you know, as I got to be a teenager, all these traumas that happen to you when you're kind of move out and you're young and you're on your own, and, um, I started studying psychology to feel better, and then that got me into, um, studying meditation.
Like I, I was, so, what I did know when I was a very young age, it was something to do with my thinking. Mm-hmm. I was very, I remember I used to tell people, it's our thoughts. I know it, it's like, my thinking is I have a problem. You know, I
Eva: ask. Cause you, it's like you can tell because it's causing you suffering.
You're like, yeah, yeah. Overthinking. And we, we all know it's so well. Right? It's the [00:15:00] overthinking and the overanalyzing. You're just like, Ugh, I'm just tired of everything that's going on up here.
Kyley: So wild. To be able to observe that, because I think so often we just get sucked into the thinking so much that we don't even.
Like the first step is to see it as the problem. So that like, you know, as, as a, as a teenager, I could just see like, guys, it's the thoughts. And everyone's like, okay, so she's lost
Eva: it. Yeah. I mean,
Spring: nobody, this was like, you, you gotta think about this. This was 25. I mean, I'm 46. This was, there wasn't internet, there wasn't a lot.
There was nothing. I go to the library and there was these old school books in there, you know, there wasn't, I mean, how do you get this information? You know? And so you just kinda wait and you practice. And then I got involved in Buddhism. I was really, you know, fortunate to meet a teacher. My teacher, Jack Cornfield, he's a Buddhist teacher and scholar and founder of Spirit Rock, where I'm on a teacher's council.
Um, And then I practiced. I, I put fully all my heart into that. I went on a retreat when I was young and I threw [00:16:00] myself into that practice because I was lib. For me, it was like this was, yes, this is teaching me about my mind. Mm-hmm. And the end of suffering and how suffering is being created. And again, I was fascinated by that because I wanted to understand.
Um, and so from there I did that for 10 years. Really strong years of retreat, traveling Asia, you know, visiting Blessings by di Lama, you know, all of that. Mm-hmm. And then I have a meltdown at some point on a long retreat. And that took me onto the path of shamanism because I had these really deep traumas that I couldn't seem to work through in this kind of sterile environment where everyone's sitting still, we know so much more about trauma than we knew 10 years ago.
It was like light ears, uhhuh. Nobody knew how to help me. I was like, I was having like P T S D. Yeah. That ended up me getting into working with plants, uh, in a shamonic path as a way to heal my trauma. And that led me to going to Peru. Um, I started to work with Ayahuasca [00:17:00] early on, like 13 years ago. Nobody knew about it.
It was introduced to me by a psychologist who said, you're disassociated from your body. And oh wow. Let me help you with this plant that I've been working with secretly. Like it's very underground. What a very
Eva: cool doc, doctor, like, oh, this is, has
Spring: become one of my best friends now. Like, yeah. Good love.
That's amazing. Yeah. And she's like, this will help. And at that point, you know how you're at the rock bottom, you'll do anything, you'll swim with dolphins, you'll lie naked places, you'll go out like anything. I don't even on the highs, like That's true. Yeah. That, that's not a good note. But you'll like, whatever the, the cure, you're like, okay, I'm gonna try.
Yeah. I'm, I've done everything, you know, rebirth, everything. Yeah. Still this epic trauma. Mm-hmm. And so it, that was my introduction into that. And then years later, I started an organization where I was bringing people to Peru and I spent a year in the jungle studying which of people matras [00:18:00] women, healers.
Um, and so that's like a whole adventure. That's a whole show onto itself, that that's a part of my spirit. And working with plants and Pima and the energy of the, those plants and those, the traditions in the Amazon means a lot to me. I'm usually, I'd be in Peru right now, but um, as we know, 2020. Mm-hmm. It changed the whole landscape.
My whole calendar was washed away in one moment, so. Yeah. Yeah. So now I'm here. So, yeah.
Eva: But doing other cool stuff too, which hopefully we'll get a chance to talk about in, in a little bit. Um, but oh, I have so many questions like this adventure of life that you've been on Sounds so fun. I'm sure it's also been difficult.
Um, but, um, Did you find that those Cause I, because, yes. So for listeners, people who are listening spring is, I would say like a very like hardcore meditator. And what I mean by that is that meditation can feel hardcore for some, uh, sometimes, you know, like especially in the beginning you were saying you're doing all these things, you're sitting in a room [00:19:00] quietly for hours and hours and hours.
And I'm curious, did that, was that helpful for you though, in some
Spring: part? Oh yeah. You know, I was a practitioner very much, and I still am in the insight meditation tradition. And, um, and for some people it's like VA pasta. Mm-hmm. Which is a word that means clear seeing. It's that va pasta style, right? Mm-hmm.
And I think for me, it saved my life. I, I, it gave me, and I, I would practice, I would go on three months silent retreats. I mean, I just, for me, When I first met that practice, I, I just devoted my life to it. I said, this is what I'm doing. I'm now a yogi. And I go where the yogis go, and I travel and I work to pay for the next retreat.
And that's how I live. And I live very simply for a long period just to go practice. Mm-hmm. And then I think as all things do, you know, we reach a, we reach a saturation point maybe, and we have, we get a, we hit a plateau. Mm-hmm. I think that was the word. I hit a spiritual plateau and I couldn't seem to [00:20:00] grow anymore in that community.
Mm-hmm. And I couldn't seem to address core trauma, which now also know the community was mostly white, mostly, you know, there was, there was a whole series of things that I didn't understand because I was just trying to make the DM a bit like, but no, I love this teaching. And I wasn't realizing there's a whole bunch of factors contributing to that plateau of me growing.
Mm-hmm. And
Kyley: so was there, yeah. Was there grief in that, in, in recognizing that you sort of hit a certain ceiling? And had to seek outside of that community you love so much? Yeah.
Spring: I think it was two things coming. It was me hitting my own growth spurt, right? Within a, you know, you grow in a community for a while and then either two things happen.
You grow with the community or you outgrow them. And I felt like I was outgrowing that particular community, the insights I was having, um, and the realizations I was having. I wanted to build a much more multicultural environment. I mean, I was like, black Lives Matter, like years ago, like I was [00:21:00] like, this is it.
Why isn't anyone else? Like, yeah, why are you guys not talking about this? I don't understand. Yeah. Yeah. I would get so sad and cry. So there was a tremendous sorrow in that. So one way it was a sorrow leaving, but it was also. I was leaving behind a certain kind of sorrow of staying and, and being so silent around things that I cared about.
The social justice pieces weren't a central piece in many spiritual communities here in the west. They just are not, they're only now coming on and even still, there's a lot of resistance to some. Yeah. And I understand it's how they wanna practice sort of the, it's just a perspective on what, why we practice.
Yeah.
Eva: Well, I think. So I, I think I probably probably mentioned this to you in an email spring, but, so one of the things that I think is so juicy about having you on this show is that, so I come from a medi meditation background. I'm also, I've done the pasta retreats. I would love to do a 30 day. I feel like that would be my next boom.[00:22:00]
Um, but I do also think that there is, I like that you use the word plateaus. I think you're giving me language for something that I'm also experiencing. And then Kyley is, so where Kyley comes in, she's, she's well versed in shamanic work. So the, the podcast, I haven't
Kyley: call myself well versed, but it's my, it's, it's, it's where I like to
Eva: swim.
Yeah. And I love it though cuz it's a really beautiful dynamic that we have where I call myself the meditator. I'm like more of like the, the practical one. And then I feel like Kyley has a shamonic work, which is, I feel like there's, it can be different, kind of like you were saying, sometimes meditation can feel almost sterile.
Um mm-hmm. And I guess I just wanted to see if you could speak to the similarities, the crossover, but also where these practices might be. Different. Right. Because
Kyley: I think that's one of the questions that, that's one of the things that we're always kind of circling around, right? Is the way in which our spiritual practices compliment one another where we kind of stretch each other, um, [00:23:00] and, and where they seem like they're suggesting different things, but are in fact kind of the same thing.
Mm-hmm. Um, and so yeah, I'm curious to hear how they've kind of melded together for you. Yeah. And then I do wanna come back to social justice stuff, uh, in particular so that listeners can know that you have a whole Harriet tub and altar that we're looking at behind you. Yeah. Uh, just to like give us a roadmap
Spring: of where we'd love to.
Yeah. This is also unusual. I have this for a particular reason. I've created this. Um, yeah. But it's
Eva: beautiful. Yeah. Um, sorry, I do wanna interject and just say one more thing. It's just like, it's. Um, I listen to, you know, you, you record on 10% podcasts often with Dan, and I think that is another wonderful example of how there's almost a type of difference, yet there's also a crossover.
There's like a Venn diagram, right? It's like, mm-hmm. I heard Dan talk about how he's not really into like the heart stuff and the Shamonic stuff, and yet he's also, you know, very much meditation is a huge part of his life, and I just find this relationship to be really [00:24:00] interesting.
Spring: Um, yeah. Dan is a funny one with all of that.
He's like kicking and screaming his whole way on this path, you know, and even when I was leading this retreat with him, he was like, It was so classic what was happening, this big heart opening. We was like, no, no, that, that's not it. It's something else while there's tears, you know, but I was like, I think this is it.
I, I, you know, but you find your way, you know, everybody has to feel
Kyley: comfortable, which is why, so listeners, now we're referring to Dan, uh, Harris, 10% Happier. And that, that's the book that I recommend to people who are like, okay, I wanna try meditation, but I don't know about like, all that WOOWOO stuff. And I'm like, I have, I have the book for you, right?
Spring: Yeah. Yes. I have the community, the book, and the teacher that, yeah. And I think that's why he's so popular is he really does carry that, you know? He is, yeah, he's great. He's a dear friend and yeah. And, and he, he's gonna be a voice for that community. The fidgety, skeptics, the, you know, well,
Eva: because I also think the West has sort of sterilized meditation a little [00:25:00] bit to have it be a lot more about like, And it's fine.
I think people can come to meditation for all different reasons, but sometimes it's about this idea of let me focus more, let me like increase my discipline. Mm-hmm. So that I can be more productive at work and that that sort of serves a lot of, I think this colonial. Capitalistic kinda view of, of meditation.
Spring: Yeah. Which I think is sad. I do think, you know, there's two pieces to really get to one that's a beautiful, um, road we can go down around how it's been like diluted, how that, how a certain aspect mindfulness is taken out of a whole eightfold path of awakening and then honed to try to manipulate our lives with this superpower, you know?
Yeah. And not feel anything and work extra hours like Yes, exactly. Is about, is about balance, harmony, waking up, not to try to use it. But as a, the, and you know, we, we tend to propagate and delude things, so we just always have that as like, okay, that's the [00:26:00] trend, okay? Mm-hmm. Keep pulling it back to the fundamental truth.
And I'm like, okay, no, mindfulness is, this is why we practice. You know? So we have voices on that. I, I know. Um, but the Shamonic side and the Buddhist side is very interesting cuz you know, Kyley, I don't know your exact practice that you do. You know, all I can kind of reference is the shamonic work I was doing.
Um, and you know, the Shamonic work is really about working with energy archetypes, mythology, you know, it's sort of like, and, and the, and the Buddhist approach. I think I have a little bit of a more, uh, Outside of the box, uh, view of Buddhism, because I've studied in all the traditions. Mm-hmm. And I've been influenced by more than the Teva, which is a sort of, um, Goenka school.
Mm-hmm. Uh, is connected to that. Now, that's a very strict model. That's not how it's always practiced. Mm-hmm. You know, in Thailand, I really like Aja Cha, who is teaching [00:27:00] like spaciousness. You know, and, and just being present and t Na Han's a great teacher of just like washing the dishes mindfully. It's not this like drill sergeant of mindfulness, the mindfulness police, you know, you're right.
So the, you have to be careful of even that, like different teachers awaken. Teachers have flavors, you know, it's like, it's like musicians, you know, they have one genre, but 20 flavors in that genre, right? Yeah. They evoke a different feeling. And so, um, so I had this lens, I think, of just looking at all the traditions, you know, uh, Teva, Mahayana, and then, uh, my practice and Tibetan Buddhism really opened my mind and heart a lot to the, the vastness.
Of the sort of shamonic world because it's very shamonic in and of itself. Mm-hmm. You know, and so you say more about that. Yeah. Well, in the Tibetan tradition, the role of ritual, I mean, even, I'll give you a really great example of that. Like, um, a few years ago, this is like many years ago actually, [00:28:00] I went to a ritual that Dalai Lama did in Washington dc Um, so this is when Barack Obama was still president, so I don't know, maybe nine years ago.
And Khali chakra is a very famous ritual that takes maybe 10 days to do. And it's where they build those San sand mandalas. Mm-hmm. And they, they build this mandala. And what the mandalas depicting is the universe. And they, they spend hours, day and night, exact geometry. Right. And then what the DMA is doing is he's initiating everyone into this universe and he's uplifting it.
It's a very shaman, involves hours of prayers and different elements, fire element. And we, we were there in the Verizon with blindfolds on and like TVs, you know, it was like not the normal LA pasta retreat. I was like, oh, ok, this is getting real deep. They were like, you know, now visualize this house and there's Dees here and the guardians there and cause it's all a way to try to just help us wake our mind up.
Right, that we're [00:29:00] living in something so much more vast than we even understand. Like he was trying to say, this is where you really live, but the ego has constructed this very tiny reality and therefore, so I got it later in the moment. I was all like, oh my God, I'm supposed to do that and visualize that and oh my God, get the paper.
Can we, no. I was like, we were all like, but then later I was like, oh honey, it wasn't even to help that. He was like, just you're, it's more, this is your real home. But I know you can't see that. So, You know, it's confusing
Eva: you. Hmm.
Kyley: That sounds amazing. I was lucky enough to see the Dai Lama once I thought I was buying tickets to like an hour talk, and I accidentally bought tickets to a full day thing that he was doing, which was, I was like, call my boss.
I was like, sorry. Uh, and I swear to God, uh, I felt. Spiritually uplifted for months after just sitting in his space for a day. Uh, that man is [00:30:00] like really
Spring: magical. Yeah. Well, I think he, you know, it's also sometimes, you know, he says a lot, he, he has so much knowledge that also sometimes people get lost too.
Mm-hmm. Though that a four or five day teaching, a lot of times I would sit there, I was really young, I didn't know what he was saying, and I'd be like, do you know what he is saying? And then he would say, oh, he just says, have a good heart. And I'd be like, oh, okay. You know, and I, I could do that. So I have to tell people when I'm in audiences too, and they're like, oh my God, what's going on?
I'm just like, just have a good heart and Yeah, yeah. Be good. That's all he is really trying to point to, you know, collaborative, but it's not, that's the road,
Kyley: you know, I remember at one point he was like, tell, just like would start telling these stories and wasn't speaking in English and like, he had a translator, but like, he would talk for like 15 minutes without the translator and like, it was just, and then he'd laugh at the end and the whole room would've erupted.
And laughter even though, No one actually knew what the joke was because he wasnt translated translator. It was, uh, yeah, he, it was
Spring: great. It was great. Yeah. It has a certain kind of [00:31:00] patience and endurance at these kind of teachings. I've gone to a lot of different Asian teachers who had long, you know, translators at a Tibetan teachers, so it's, yeah.
Perfect.
Eva: So, so it sounds like though, with, I think what you're saying that's really interesting to me is that, um, yeah, and there's just different, yeah. So in, there's so many different types of also teachers and teachings of meditations that sometimes that, that, that in some, in some spaces, shamanic work isn't separate from the meditation at all, that it's already sort of part of that, especially what you were saying in like Tibetan Buddhism for sure.
Um, Which I think maybe, maybe be a little bit more devoid in like regular or westernized meditation. That's
Spring: sounds. I think it's hard for them, you know, and I think out of all the meditations, I think the one thing that they, all, the traditions boil down to a few key things. They all can agree on some fundamental things, presence.
Mm. That's what everybody is trying to get to. The clear presence. Even if all the rituals, it's actually leading up to just now [00:32:00] rest in the state of awareness. Right? The rituals are pointing somewhere. Even though some people may say, I don't need all that. I'll just sit. Great. Yeah. That's maybe what they need to just, you know, but they're all being.
It's always about this present moment as the doorway, and it's also about the examination of suffering and the end of suffering, and that being like, we're all trying to get off this wheel to get out of this matrix, you know? And we feel it. We're like plugged in and we know it, and it's so irritating.
We're like, I could just get outta this thing, you know? But yet we're so connected to it, you know? And so, so it's something really important to look at as we, as a meditation, it's a journey to the, the freeing, the mind from, um, being present, stepping out of that delusion and, and seeing something else. And so the shamonic world can help people with that archetypally, you know?
I mean, this is a, this is a journey. Our lives are like, you know, they're like chapters in a book. I mean, this is, this is [00:33:00] like Shakespeare, right? And then, so it is shamonic in its own, the story of the Sadar Shamonic, you know, it's very magical. Mm-hmm. So we hold both, you know, we hold our feet on the ground and also the universe in the sky.
Look at that. That's shamanic. It's the earth and then the sky. Wow. Can't explain billions of universes, can we? No. We, we have to hold both, you know? Yeah. It's like, and yang.
Kyley: Yeah.
Eva: Yeah. I think that can be, um, I think my, my black and white thinking mind often so wants to understand, you know, wants to keep it, it wants to understand.
So it does, it defaults by trying to be like, it's either this or it's this, you know, this sort of default of the mind. I think we all have that. We go because we need to simplify it, but in reality or categorize or, yeah, yeah. Categorize. Yeah. But in reality, life is, So different in all these really subtle and delicious tiny nuanced ways that we can't, you can't categorize them, right?
It's just,
Kyley: [00:34:00] yeah. So,
Spring: oh, go ahead. Sorry. Oh, go ahead, Kyley. No, no, go ahead, Kyley. That's good. So
Kyley: I, I wanna ask a question, uh, under the guise of it being a question a listener might have, but actually it's really just my own question that I want your wisdom on, so, sure. I think what I was thinking about as you were talking about, like, we see that we're trapped in this matrix and we want out, and the thing that I, that what rose up for me is that there's also this real resistance, right?
Like there's this way in which, okay, I want liberation. I want to like, Snap into the presence or, or, or allow myself to rest in presence. But also when the, you know, reminder goes off to meditate or we have the opportunity to, um, you know, I use the Akashic records a lot, so like whatever our practice is, all of a sudden there's all these other things we come up with that we have to do instead.
Right. And so even as we are like so frustrated at this, um, you know, being trapped in this matrix, we are so [00:35:00] resistant to doing the things that help us. Out of it. And I'm just, I feel like that's kind of, that's a loaded question. I mean, I think that there's whole, you know, that's probably what we're all trying to figure out.
But I'm curious in your experience, you know, how, how you navigate that or how you help your students navigate that?
Spring: Well, I, I, first, I completely agree with you. You know, we're, we are, you know, we're the gatekeeper. Yeah. You know, we're, we're the, we're the warden too. You know, we're like the inmate and the warden and we know it, I think, I believe fundamentally on some level.
And I think also that, you know, it's very hard. We're going against the street. That's a classic, uh, phrase that, uh, the Buddhas said that, you know, A lot of people are reinforcing the fun of the matrix, the fun of this place, and there is nothing else. So we have a whole bunch of conditioning, right? Very few people are like learning when they're very young, urine enlightened being, you forgot now we're gonna try to, uh, awaken through these practices.
[00:36:00] No, we grow up on Taco Bell and Walmart and consume and the education system of America and the dream value, so to speak. And with all the oppression and the sexism and homophobia and cap, we don't grow up. So we have to understand that when we are ourselves pushing our head up one day going, I'm gonna meditate, and all of that programming comes right behind.
Mm-hmm. We had to understand that there is a force that we have to push back against. Yeah. The force of the, the culture and the, the, the condition society, the, it's, it's like it's got a power to it. Yeah. You know? And so we have to exert some pressure back to like, yes, I'm gonna practice today. I'm gonna do yoga, I'm gonna drink this green juice.
I'm not gonna, you know, there's an actual kinda effort if you're alone now, if you're in a spiritual community, the community that can help you. Right. Because that energizes everyone. That creates a force. That's why living in a spiritual community is easier at times. Because, you know, if you're in a meditation community, you'll practice more because everyone's [00:37:00] going to the practice hall.
Mm-hmm. But I, that has a force. But if everyone's just going on YouTube right now or going on Netflix eating chocolate, you'll do that. So we have to just have a real care. That we're up against something. And so there is a battle sometimes to follow, um, to follow our highest calling and to practice every day.
Kyley: That framing is, is so helpful because for me, uh, I'm just so hard on myself that when, that what I, that it turns into this battle, like this internal monologue of like, you know, you don't follow through on things or whatever, whatever it is that rises up. And so it, it becomes like a singular failing, right?
Mm-hmm. I mean, I'm not always as hard on myself. I'm being more melodramatic for the sake of example, right? But it becomes, uh, my own failing rather than recognizing like, No, this is gonna be hard. So like get ready to meet the
Spring: resistance. Yes. Yeah. And to meet all the hindrances that keep us. Yeah. I [00:38:00] mean, there's classic teachings in the Venice tradition around hindrances to practice.
Mm-hmm. And desire aversion doubt. You know, sleepiness, beefiness, yeah. Breathlessness, right. There's all these kind of reasons we go to sit down and meditate. We're like, no, you know, suddenly I need to call my friend I haven't talked to since the third grade. I must call right now. Like the moment we sit down, right?
Like, oh, I have to get a latte. Oh, someone's outside with a lawnmower. I can't focus. You know, it's just not gonna happen. You know? So we have these hindrances internally, externally. So I understand. I wish I could do, when I'm on my own, I want to do hours of practice and sometimes it doesn't happen, and I can fall into that same mindset of like, oh, today, yeah, you didn't do as well as you could have, but I did a lot.
You know? And so we have to just, we just try to work with that. I understand. Yeah.
Eva: Yeah. I, I think in a situation like this love, it really all comes down to like love though. Because I think while you're absolutely right that, like I wrote down, you said, yeah, there's some pressure, [00:39:00] some apply, some pressure back on those conditionings or all that stuff, but, um, to do it from a place of love because you're like, I'm actually doing this because I know it's the loving thing to do for myself.
Or it's like the good thing to do for myself, rather than having it be that internal cattle pro that actually Dan Harris talks about a lot, which is that like, you're, you're bad and you didn't do this, and you suck and therefore you have to go twice as hard tomorrow. Cuz I feel like that can be, That just makes it that so much worse.
Spring: Yeah. Yeah. Never works. It never works because it's like beating and shaming ourselves into meditating. Yeah. You know, we can't, it, the force is, uh, like a kind of a wise effort. It's like this, a force says us, okay, I'm gonna do, I'm gonna wake up and go for a walk, because that's what helps me. And we have to sometimes push in a healthy way.
Yeah. Like, you don't wanna put your shoes on, get your shoes on, you know, I know you don't feel like doing that, but, and then you always feel better. Right. It's kind of like, we know the outcome is gonna be good, so sometimes we apply like a gentle, but it has to be applied correctly. It's [00:40:00] like wise effort.
It has to not have the cattle pod, but have that, I know there's resistance and I'm gonna override it for my, the highest part knows that this is just the complaints. Yeah. The complaint
Kyley: department and the resistance is not like of you. Right. And you aren't the resistance. Right. You are like, so like, just, you don't have to buy into it because you know you're.
Wiser and extend beyond it. I don't know. I'm
Spring: scrambling my words, but Yeah, I know. We're not the resistance. It's just a, it's just a rising as it does. Usually when there's a, an important door we wanna walk through, it could be resistance writing a book project, and you know, we have this anytime we're on the edge of something good for us, resistance, eating vegetables.
I have people in my life who say that, but you know, it's just this energy, it hits everyone. So we could just see it as kind of empty, you know, and like, okay, here it is. And you know, sometimes we might listen. You know, and that's okay.
Eva: W wise energy. I really love that. I think that's, that's really on the [00:41:00] money right there.
Wise or wise effort is what you said. Yeah.
Spring: Wise effort. Yeah. It's really important to reflect on how we effort in anything. Yeah. Is this a wise application? Are we overdoing it or underdoing it? Yeah. Mm-hmm.
Eva: And I, I feel like the name of your book also in Catalysis, which is Fierce Heart to show up to Life with a Fierce Heart.
Spring: I know, I know. And people have asked me about that and, and I think I made fierce because, you know, I. And I'm not a fierce people when they look at me, they wouldn't say I'm more like Kung fu panda, not Bruce Lee. You know? I'm like, I'm like, I'm not like, uh, so fierce. You know? The fierceness is, I think, my capacity to be with intensity.
Mm-hmm. Yeah. That's what makes my heart fierce. Like I've been in a lot of traumatic moments and you know, even on my shaman path, a lot of witnessing and presence or other dramatic moments. As a meditation teacher, you're like a, you know, a priest. You hold a lot, you listen to a lot. And [00:42:00] I think I just, the fierceness is this capacity to hold the complexity of this human life.
Hmm. With the kind of dignity, the joy and the pain of it. You don't just get one, you know, we know this, we long for that. I just want one happy moment after another and another another, but this just doesn't happen. Yeah. And that sucks, doesn't it? Now, now we have to deal with everything else.
Eva: Oh, that's so beautiful though.
I think that is really so much of. Like what this life is about. Because I do think the more intensity we can hold, like you were saying, it sucks cause we have to deal with the shitty parts too. But the more we can hold that means, the more, um, we get to experience the gifts of it too. Because there's like so much there, but it ha but it has to come with a discomfort as well.
And it's like, you know, and I think we, we've all been there, we're like, oh my God, like all of this growth or stepping outta your comfort zone or even doing anything scary or new or even joy can be uncomfortable sometimes. You're like, ah, oh
Kyley: yeah, joy [00:43:00] is, I mean, Brene Brown talks about that, right? Yeah. Joy is just like deeply uncomfortable.
We think it's what we want, but then it happens. And joy is like, you know, laying on your back like a kitten, you know, with your belly exposed or like joy is, joy is like the, the dream where you're naked in your high school. You know, like you're so exposed when you are really full of joy.
Spring: Yeah. Yeah. And to keep and to be comfortable.
Exactly. With all of life's experiences. Right. To be and to trust that it's like it's moving through us. It's awakening something. It's important. And that, and, and as we mature, I always think of, when I think of spiritually mature people are wise people. It's their ability to hold energy complexity organizationally, spiritually, you know, uh, uh, as a movement, a social movement.
Can they hold the, all the voices and all the rhetoric and all the propaganda. It's like, okay, just keep moving forward. [00:44:00] That's, that's like, it's like we're training in that even when we're meditating and every time we sit through an emotion we hate, we're actually growing. Every time we sit through this restlessness that we're just like, I'm gonna die of it.
And then we don't, we're like, ok, ok, I'm here. Mm-hmm. We actually grow in those moments. Being with what we don't like. Being with what's hard being, um, there's like, and that's why I said that's the fierce part. Um, being with too much joy and we feel naked and then we're there lying and, you know, just uncovered, you know, we gotta feel that, you know?
Yeah. And it's like, okay, let's feel it. Like set willingness to be like, this is, I don't know what's gonna happen, but I'm just gonna feel it. Okay. Let's just feel, and then, and then we survive like we always do. Yeah.
Kyley: Yeah. Yeah. So, um, you know, I love what you just said about, you know, Wisdom and why teachers, you're like training to hold the energy and, um, and I'm curious to see how that shows up for you.
You kind of referenced it a little bit, [00:45:00] you know, political ideologies and whatnot, how you see that in this moment of Black Lives Matter. And um, you know, I think it seems to me like the wave crested, right? All of a sudden a bunch of us white people were like, oh shit, racism. You know, and everyone like went out and bought the books and, you know, did the thing.
And then I think what happened, you know, it seems to, uh, there's, there's a, like the energy has shifted right? In which we knew would happen. Um, And I guess I'm curious to know from your perspective, um, I guess, I guess how to keep holding the energy if maybe the question that I'm asking, but you can answer that however you
Spring: Yeah, yeah.
I was, I saw this funny post, what you're saying reminds me, somebody said this buddy post about how, you know, when we first had the epidemic really hit and the shelter in place was really powerful and everyone was like posting pictures of all the bread they were [00:46:00] making and cookies, cake. And then, then it was like, what the hell was in that bread?
Like, like a short time, like deep on the police, deep calling, oh my God. Like this is the narrative right on, on social media. Went from that to that. So I think with anything, when you make such a huge flying leap right up into people being like, oh my God, I am, I hold these views and there's all this, um, sort of.
Like a light shined on this one issue. Um, you know, there has to be a balancing point. It's like the pendulum, right? It's sway really far out. But yet I think there would've been a lot more sustained focus on it had we not been in this epidemic, because I do believe we would've had sustained protestors.
Mm. But because of the police and the way that the coronavirus is, you know, moving through the community, it was like a great risk to be out for a lot of people who, uh, would have been naturally in a normal environment drawn out. Yeah. Elderly people. [00:47:00] Every, everyone, right. Yeah. That felt compassionate. So that's something I feel like we're in a pandemic, so it's like, oh my God.
So that is like two things happening that naturally would make our. Attention. And then we gotta live in this moment too. We got kids, we got to cook, you know, food, we gotta, you know, build some,
Eva: make
Spring: more of that bread. Some bread. Tomorrow we gotta call our
Eva: mom. Yeah.
Spring: You know, it's like, oh my God. In the midst of all of this, it's like we have to like live some kind of normal life, earn our income, you know, all the things we do, and then also thrive in some way.
Mm-hmm. And so I think it's okay. I don't think that this awakening is going away. Yeah. I think it's just like, it's gonna mature, it's gonna, and for some people it might be too much, you know, and they might need to take a backseat, like, you know, like, you guys drive the car. I just need to be with this and learn.
There's a lot of people who fill in the learning. Um, And, um, and yeah, we're just holding this moment too. This moment does require a [00:48:00] fierce heart because there is so much complexity Yeah. And so much emotion. You know, everybody's just like melting down or fired up. And even, I mean, even when you're, everyone's on the same team, you know, they're just shooting off at other people that you're like, wait, we were just, hey, we're, we're together.
Whatcha are you doing? Right? And they're like, yeah, it's like a bad day, you know? Yeah. And you just have to like, there's a kind of strength that you have to just kind of stay in your lane. Right now I'm just in my lane and Ed cars are swerving. I'm like, Hey, okay. Over there I'm just like, keep it going.
Went, keep it going cuz it's so bumpy.
Eva: Yeah. Well, I mean, yeah. One, it's, well, so we can talk a little bit more about your course. Cause I think it's so fascinating, but I think yeah, you've, you've like. You've created a lane. You created a lane. Yeah. And you're like, and you're just like, that's one way. I think a wonderful example of how you can still be doing the stuff that's important to you, but also stay in your lane.
Spring: So, yeah. Yeah. And I can tell you how that, and it just came to me as many of us when initially in. [00:49:00] February, March, I got kicked out of a, a meditation retreat center in Massachusetts inside Meditation Society. I was supposed to go to, um, Peru, uh, in May and do my whole retreat season. I wasn't even living in this country.
I was pretty much gonna be getting residency either in Costa Rica or Peru. I've been a nomad, so I had this kind of ambivalence with the us like, oh God, I wish, but no. Oh, no, no. You know, maybe I felt something brewing, you know? Yes. I think we all have since 2016. Yeah. You know, like brewing, you know? Mm-hmm.
So I just, so, yeah, so it was very interesting what happened. I came back to California and I said, okay, universe, you've taken away my whole schedule, but I am a healer. I'm here to help. I will not stop. So after a month of doing our grief ritual, I said, tell me what I need to do. And then the week before the week George Floyd died, I had an incredible visionary dream about Harriet Tubman, [00:50:00] and that has what's led to this course.
And then I was running, I was running, and, um, And I was, and it was, you know, the other killings, Breonna Taylor and Ahau Avery. I was just so heartbroken. So as the third one that hit like that, you know, George Floyd was just like, it just broke me open in a c And, uh, like maybe two days before that, I had this dream about Harriet Tubman, where I was running down a dark road hanging onto the back of her jacket.
And you know how you have these dreams where, you know, you're being chased, you often have chase dreams or dreams were falling, you know, or naked. Or naked somewhere, right? There's very Freudian, you know,
Eva: psychology, you
Spring: know. And so I was running and I just, I, I couldn't see anything and I was like, oh, we're being chased.
And it was so scary and I was so afraid. And I said, Harriet, get me outta here. And somehow I was like, wait, this is Harriet Tubman. And then, and then it was like, she turned around and she was like, I'll get you out. And ever since that day, Harriet. And this might be a [00:51:00] connection I have just because of my shaman work, that I'm very close.
I live in a multi-dimensional reality. I'm aware of that. I don't talk about it, but I think all shamanic practitioners do. So Harriet and I have just had this dialogue, you know? And so then I said, okay, I'm gonna do a five-part class about Harriet Tubman, and I'll just call it the Dorm of Harriet and Underground Railroad.
It was like a week later. I started the class, literally only launched it for seven or eight days. We had like 600 tickets sold. And then my publisher, I'll tell you the miracle, my publisher at Hay House, I have a book I was supposed to be writing on. Shamanism is on the class and says, you gotta write a book about this right now.
So now I'm writing a book and then I decided to keep my Sunday class cause it was so good. No one wanted to stop. Oh my God.
Eva: And
Spring: like, we wanna come next Sunday. It was like 300 people. So I was like, ok. So
Eva: now, oh my God, spring the universe had other plans for you. She like, she was like, you got work to do here.
You got work
Spring: to do with Harriet, this great ancestor who's giving me so much [00:52:00] courage here at Tubman. The stories that I've been researching. Oh my God, this woman, I, I, I just can't even, I, I don't know anyone stronger than this. I mean, it's like, so for me, the class is a celebration and a learning of our history, our shared history, and also to embody the qualities.
Harriet Spirit wants to be out. She's, the movie came out 2019. People write to me all over now. Like, my daughter had a dream about Harriet. Oh, wow. And I'm like, the stories people are telling me.
Eva: So, so wait, what are you talk, what, what's the course cover? Like what do you, what's the, some of the, the themes of the content in really, yeah.
And I'm curious how it all connects back to Harriet.
Spring: Yeah, so the church really, so it was a five week class where I took people through five aspects. It was like prison of the mind, white supremacy, inferiority. I talked the whole class about allies. There was these powerful white men in Harriet's life later on mm-hmm.
That supported her work in the abolitionist movement. So I showed everyone like, what does it mean to show [00:53:00] up? Like, wow, these people and some many died. There's a line of abolitionists who put their lives on the line in the underground railroad Right. To, to move people through safe houses. Um, so, and then I wove that in with a, what does the dharma mean to stand up and pursue freedom?
What does it mean as a dharma practitioner to know right is right and to stand up. Mm-hmm. Like there's integrity here. Like, what is the world that we want to pass on? Mm-hmm. And there's a moment where you're willing to stand up to whatever because of you, what you know is right. And that's sort of like, um, the LAMA has done that with China and the whole Tibetan issue, Han and the Vietnamese issue and the Vietnam War where there's a history.
Martin Luther King and a Christian Church. There's a history of spiritual beings using their beliefs and their practice to. They have to, they're, they're tasked with creating social change. They are called to that. Mm-hmm. Harriet Tubman was called to that. That's what I believe. Like she's been Moses for a lot, a lot of lifetimes.
You [00:54:00] know, they called her Moses and she was just so fearless. I think as a woman, this 90 pound woman that did everything that she's done. And I'm, I'm excited to write the book to share more of our stories and weave the dharma and modern, a modern take on it. Yeah. Yeah. 2020 take, oh my God, I can't wait to read this book.
Yeah. Well
Eva: also to like, to like, you know, educate cuz like the, you know, I know about Har something kind of, sort of, but not exactly really, you know what I mean? And hearing you talk about her, I'm like, okay, there's so much more here to this story. So wait, so you're publishing a book about her work and in relation to like, Now social justice now?
Well, yeah,
Spring: because um, you know, the class was about, I felt like what Harriet was giving me, like showing up in this like ancestor, you know, one of our ancestors, she's everyone's ancestor. I'm a black woman, so I feel connected in a certain way, but she's an American ancestor. She's like an ancestor to anyone who's listening.
Um, you know, she's just is giving us [00:55:00] the what is the one quality everybody really wants right now is like fearlessness. Mm-hmm. We're all, all of this has made what? Afraid. Afraid of the coronavirus. Afraid of the police. Afraid of
Eva: politics. Yeah. Politics.
Spring: Backlash. Yeah. You know, being
Eva: called out, being humiliated.
Cancel culture. Yeah. Canceled. Mm-hmm
Spring: You know? Exactly. Like we're all like, ah. And here
Eva: it's like
Spring: you better stand up, you know? You gotta go out there and be, you use your voice. Everyone has power and I think that she was someone born a slave. Beaten down so much. She never believed that though. She always had this, um, under belief.
And then as a conductor on the Underground Railroad for eight, nine years, she was rescuing people. So she had this Bodhi thoughtful heart too. Yeah. Right. Yeah. And there was so many things that, but, and a lot of people don't know. They had like a one day a year maybe. Black History Day in school and they'd be like Harriet having in underground room.
Exactly.
Eva: Exactly,
Spring: exactly. Nobody really knew anything, you know? [00:56:00] Exactly. She saved a lot of people. She was a brave woman. Yeah.
Eva: Thank you for Harriet. Well, let's go back to talking about
Spring: white men like that one day and then back to the history of the world and, you know. Yeah, yeah. Oh, Harri. You know, she's here.
Kyley: Um, so I, uh, am curious, uh, you mentioned that like as an ancestor, you, you know, feel like in dialogue with Harriet Tubman, and you also mentioned that you feel like you live in a multi-dimensional,
Eva: multi-dimensional reality. Yeah. And so I wrote that down too. I was like, can't, can't end this podcast without asking you about that.
Yeah.
Kyley: So, you know, that is so in line with, you know, some of the, some, one of the reasons that I am wanted to have a podcast is for people to share. What, how they really experience their spirituality. Because for me, as someone who is interested in the mystical and the metaphysical, in the beginning of my own kinda opening up, I just was so convinced I was losing my mind for a while.
And so I'm just Would, was hoping you could share a little bit about [00:57:00] what that looks like and how you experience that, because I think those stories are important to, I think they're valuable to, to hear
Spring: and they can be very misunderstood and, and very confusing. Um, also, I, I think, you know, one of the things that I love, I'll just say from my Buddhist practice is how grounded it is.
Mm-hmm. Years of sitting, walking, follow your breath, sit it, walk, follow your breath. Right. It's like, it's, it's so earthy, right? Yeah. Special about that initially. Yeah. But then after times, like all kinds of states of consciousness are to happen, like higher states of. It started to happen with me where I started to enter into what are called geo my states of concentration.
Mm-hmm. And, and then I'd be like, well, what is happening? I'd be hours and hours and sitting and everything would just dissolve and I would just be space. And then I would go report this to my, my Burmese teachers or my American teacher. I'd be like, oh, this is very good. This very good. Okay. Keep going.
Right. Keep you're almost a stream entry. You're almost gonna get in light and I'll be like, I'm getting light. [00:58:00] Really? Ok. Like there's a lot of kinda craziness around, you know, Ohio States or whatever. So it started off with my ability to be able to concentrate, have this, uh, deep kind of concentration that would lead into very blissful states of mind, that felt very otherworldly.
Mm-hmm. Right. Where you would lose touch with your body. You read stuff like where yogis can sit for one day, two days. I never did that, but I, if I would've applied a kind of effort mm-hmm. I probably could have, but I never exerted it that hard. Mm-hmm. You know? Um, So that kind of started my interest in there's there.
Oh, the elevator goes what? Much higher than I once per se. Cause I entered it there, right? Yeah, yeah. Like, ok. Well so interesting. And then when I got more into the shaman world and, and being with Shabo indigenous people, they'd live to their detriment, some of them, cuz they get very hard for them to ground in this.
Like, they're terrible with their money, their watches, you know, they have no, they're like, you gotta [00:59:00] be here at three o'clock with the money I gave you yesterday. Where is that? And they're like, oh yeah, that was gone after you gave it. I dunno. Like somebody needed it. I had to get, you know, it's like, ah.
Eva: Yeah. Yeah. So, but that's,
Spring: they're in the jungle. They could stay like that there, you know? Yeah. Yeah. So you have to always have a foot in this reality, clearly en embodied, because the danger with people journeying and being interdimensional is that they're not embodied here. Mm-hmm. I had years of embodiment practice that I didn't even realize served me so well.
So when I got in the shamonic world, I was really good at it. Mm. Because I linked, I was in my body, I was in my heart, and then I could go, the danger is going off when you have no foot here, not a good thing. And that's what happens to people. It's scary. They disassociate, they lose, uh, awareness of what's happening on this realm.
It can lead to kind of a psychosis. Yeah. Or just, you can't channel any of the wisdom cuz you're not in your body to know it. [01:00:00] Mm-hmm. And to re Yeah. Yeah. Yes. You have to be in your body to know the wisdom and to bring the wisdom through. If you're gonna be like a channel, you have to be fully here, you know?
Yeah, yeah, yeah. And so, so that, so just really working with plants and it was so normal living with upheavals to have many mystical experiences, you know, while fasting, while meditating, while working with plants, while praying. Mm. You know, it's just to see, to see the scope of the universe and to understand that we're in a, you know, we live in a system where there are many beings and there's the world of spirit.
We are a spirit. You know, we come and we're incarnated and we're not just these bodies. Yeah. And I saw that with meditation, so I was less afraid, you know, I was more willing to see it as organic and natural. And this must be what the Buddha went through when he started to see the universe and to see, you know, like, I think it's a natural kind of, Evolution of consciousness when we're ready.
Yeah. Okay. I love
Eva: that. Yeah. I'm gonna be going back and re-listening to our own [01:01:00] podcast. Okay. Just, just letting you know cause this is, this is so good and so beautiful. And I, I was gonna ask like, do you find, cause I think this is the challenge for so many people is finding that balance between the material world and this other sort of interdimensional world.
But I feel like you already answered it, which is that you had such a grounded meditation practice that it seems like it's easier for you to actually kind of have both, like one foot in both worlds
Spring: kind of. Yes. And I'm learning that more and more and my dialogue and my connection to Harriet is another evolution of that.
That I can feel this, uh, I can feel this profound connection and actually bring this book through. I feel like it's Harriet who wants to write it. Yeah, I'm like, I'm yours, Harriet. You say, go. I'll do it. This just came outta nowhere three months ago. I mean, I had, you know, I was a Harriet fan, but I was like many people like.
Yeah, Harry Tubman, of course. You know, I didn't know the detail. Yeah. You know, I wasn't like, you know, writing about her. I was working on something very different, a Shamonic book, and this sort of was like, okay, spirit, you want to use this [01:02:00] and this is the, this is the energy that needs to come through.
Okay, great. Yeah. But grounded is very important because that's the danger I've seen in South America with people entering states. It's the danger I've seen, even on long meditation retreats, people can have breaks on long retreats. Now there's a very heavy screening process because a deep intense meditation is not right for everyone because it could lead someone who's already maybe fragile, tends to go out.
Mm-hmm. To go out and not come back for a long time. And that's not. It felt compassionate for anybody here. It's not a good thing to not be able to, um, and I'm also a, like a triple Capricorn, so I think that helps. Like Capricorn, sun, moon, Capricorn girl.
Eva: I'm also a Capricorn and I'm a,
Kyley: and I'm a Taurus, so there's like a lot of earth energy happening here.
Spring: Yeah, yeah, yeah. Good. But you're a triple
Eva: Capricorn though.
Spring: Yeah, like I, the last they told me, I was like, moon, sun, I have [01:03:00] Aries rising, so maybe a double Capricorn. Oh my God. That's
Kyley: literally my husbands, sorry, I just got excited. My husband note is
Spring: those three things. Oh, wow. Yeah. Well, he's probably a real earth spirit and the the danger is you could get too settled, you know?
Yeah. Not have enough water and air. You gotta keep balancing it. But for me to, for me to journey around or, or open my heart to these different energies is, um, I can say grounded. Hopefully. I feel like I have trained in that through years of practice. Yeah. Well,
Kyley: and I feel like the, the, the desire to skip over the groundedness and reach for sort of mystical experiences comes from a desire that like to escape the now to escape the present, to think like, oh, there's some amazing thing out there, and I just have to get to it.
Which is, I think, kind of antithetical to what I, what's my core spiritual belief, even though I totally do that sometimes. Right. But that like presence is the mo that is fundamental. Um, [01:04:00] and, and so I think it's a. It's a, it's a project. Like when we try, when we try to reach without being interested in being embodied, we're kind of doomed to fail.
Because the whole point is that, and again, in my mind is that we are this link between the heaven and earth. You know, we're, we're not the heaven exclusively that we would, we wouldn't be here. We would be out there.
Spring: I agree with you and I, and you know, that's a big thing with people who teaching meditation.
I remember I, at the meditation center in downtown Oakland, people sometimes would come into my, I used to teach all these classes, you know, all entry level beginner, all on donations. So anybody could come in, you know, to the center. And we have everybody, it's characters in downtown Oakland, right? Yeah. And some people come on and be like, can you teach me how to get to the fifth dimension?
And I'd be like, no, no. And they'd be like, I said, I'll teach you how to be here in your body. That's the miracle. That's the, that's what, that's the real [01:05:00] healing. And they'd be like, Okay, well, you know, everyone wants to be out. I, yeah, escape. Escape. Yeah. We wanna, and that's like a very western thing, you know?
Yeah. It's so painful to feel and be so,
Eva: yeah. When it's really all right here, like I know to get there, I think it's like through, it's through here. It's through now. It's through
Spring: here. So yes, right here, right now. Feel your feelings. Be in it and then, you know, and, and it's a big thing cause of teaching people shaman work, who teaching them the embodiment too first is, yeah,
Eva: yeah, yeah.
I do have to continue this question though, because I am genuinely very curious about in terms of like communicating with the multi-dimensional realities. How does that come through you, if I, if I may ask?
Spring: Yeah. I think it's always different, you know, it comes through through intuitive, uh, like a, an intuitive capacity, right?
Mm-hmm. Our gut knows, you know? Mm-hmm. Or often when there's communication happening. On [01:06:00] a another level, you, you'll get interested in a set of teachings, a set of teacher, a place in the world. Suddenly you're obsessed on Egypt, right? Mm-hmm. You're like, oh, I have to go to Egypt right now. And you know, the next day somebody hands you a book Here, I found this book on Egypt.
You're like, another sign, an Egypt ticket pops up on your, you know, yeah. I'm gonna go, there's something in Egypt, right? Yeah. After stuff like that. Mm-hmm. Like a series of things. I was like, okay, universe, you're like, it's like,
Eva: yeah. You know, listening and paying attention and then you're,
Spring: yeah, you're listening to what the guidance is showing you, right?
Yeah. And then there could be something there for you in Egypt, like an experience that you need to have. And it might be that you're aware of like an encounter or you're not, I mean, you know, it's also how open we are. You know? We learn how to be open-minded in a way that's really true. Like we literally open up and, um, And, and it's just, you know, it's like our ancestors can connect with us.
We feel things, we become intuitive. These are [01:07:00] all also natural gifts that happen even in city yoga, you know, city powers. Um, you just start to interact, you know, it's just your true nature comes out. It's less closed down your senses. So it's un I think it's very natural in a lot of people actually. Yeah.
Now rather they listen or they get scared. That's another thing. A lot of people go right to fear. Christianity has made it a scary thing to have a relationship with even your mind and meditation at times. Right? Yeah. They'll be like, I remember my aunt used to say, that's, you're opening up to the devil, you know, by meditating.
And I'd be like, wow, really? You know? I don't feel like that though. Yeah. Sometimes I do, but not, you know how you think that though? Yeah. Sometimes it's hard. Yeah. You know, so, so it's, it's intuitive and I think it grows and it's different for each person every time. Some people might have more up close encounters.
Mm-hmm. Um, and, and just like Harriet is just like a presence guiding my energy. Mm-hmm. Yeah. [01:08:00] In my dreams scape.
Eva: Yeah. She came to you in a dream.
Spring: So that was definitely, yeah. Planting seeds. Yeah. Planting seeds. Other people being interested, like, you know, they usually, in these great spirits, they come for a reason and it's always to be of service.
Yeah. They come to serve, serve, serve, help. The mission.
Kyley: Every time you talk about Harriet, I get like full body goosebumps. So she is like, yeah, I'm here.
Spring: Yeah. Well you both are really open. So you are having Harriet tell you she's gonna help you. You stronger, like gives courage. Courage
Eva: I could use dose of, of fearlessness.
Yeah. Yeah, totally. Yeah. And I love the perspective, which is this beautiful open perspective of she's the ancestor of all of, all of us of Americans everywhere. And I think that's
Spring: beautiful. Yeah. Yeah. Everybody is connected. They're, you know, some, we have special connections maybe due to our ethnic heritage that we have a special link to certain people.
Yes. But it's just like, is an image of a Chinese compassionate, but it's everyone, right? Mm-hmm. Or Tara [01:09:00] Tibetan or any African, you know, deity or we share them. But you know, so Harriet, she was always connected to everybody. She was lost a, a freedom. In the freedom movement around women's liberation. Susan B.
Anthony was her friend, so she had this vast, uh, friend scope of collaborators. The freedom was the, you know, yeah. With the main theme. Yeah.
Kyley: Okay. Well, I think we could talk to you for like, those yogis who sat for a day straight.
Spring: Oh
Eva: yeah, yeah. Uh, we didn't even, yeah. One day. Hopefully, hopefully, uh, if we get a second chance, I would love to ask you about your time in the jungle, cuz that also sounds like a, a whole book, a whole adventure on its
Spring: own.
Well, I am writing a book about that. That is a, a book I was writing about and Oh, you are? Yeah. That was what I was writing about. Um, oh. Um, when Harriet took over, when Harriet came, and then Harriet was like, this is, [01:10:00] this is, now we gotta get this done right here, right now. I was like, okay. Okay. We're it, we're onto it.
Um, yeah. And you know, Yeah, I will speak a lot about that. And I have in a lot of different podcasts and I just, you know, and my heart goes out to the Amazon Forest right now because it's under a lot of threat in the Brazil side, and I. It's just what we learned from nature, poncho mamas, everything, you know?
And all I'll say is that Gaia is so on our side. Yeah. You know, the spirit of the earth. And that's the core of what I learned in my year in Peru, that Gaia is alive. It's a living, breathing entity that responds to every footstep, every blast, everything. You know? And so, um, I really think that somehow this coronavirus is very much connected to, you know, the last gasps.
If we don't stop, you know, this is a way to force some kind of stoppage. Yeah. And it has a bit, I know [01:11:00] uncertain ways and then, you know, it's not done yet. But, but I, but I will do lots of talks about my time in Peru and you can look at my organization, lot Toine journeys, and it's the blending of Buddhism and plant medicine.
What's Budd? It's called Ancient Medicine Buddhist Wisdom. So we are the first Buddhist medicine retreat. Girl.
Eva: I am. I'm looking, I'm If there was ever something for Eva.
Spring: Yeah. Well, when we get, you know, we're, we're sidelined. Like everybody right now we're the button.
Eva: Yeah. We're, wait, you're speaking my love languages right now.
I'm like, I'm like, yes. Yes. And your Capricorn Yes to all of us.
Spring: I, I love that you both are doing this great podcast and sharing all your wisdom and having these conversations. It's just exciting to see people. Yeah. Putting their passion out there and making this road accessible and connecting people together and sharing [01:12:00] ideas.
Eva: So thank you. We really appreciate that. Thank you. Yeah. It's one of our big goals to try and make it more accessible and let's have silly, you know,
Spring: conversations where we don't. Yeah. It's gotta be fun too, because it can't be too heavy. It's so out there. I gotta laugh. You gotta dance people. Exactly. Yes.
You gotta let it go and then pick it up again when you got some time and energy, but mm-hmm. You can't, you gotta also have a lightness. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Things are underway, things are changing. It's deep and profound. Yeah.
Eva: Well, I think this might be a good segue into our last question. We usually do a round where we could go and share one thing that's bringing us joy right now.
Yeah. Um, big or small. So spring, would you like to share with us one thing that's bringing you joy?
Spring: I think one thing that's bringing me joy right now, I mean we've kind of been talking about it, is this connection to. My ancestor, Harriet, our ancestor, and the Underground railroad, which is something that ancestors, um, like this lineage of freedom fighters that I actually [01:13:00] hadn't studied in depth before.
And there's, it's a, it's really intense reading cuz it's deep, right? These are sad stories. They're freedom songs. Wow. Ugh. It's hard. But also there's something joyful in me being present with that hardship. Like, these are lives that I need to listen to. These are voices, these are songs I need to hear. I need to bear witness to something in that.
And there's something really joyful in it. Yeah. I will say it's hard, but joyful beers. Yeah. I love
Kyley: that. I love that. Beautiful. Thank you. How about you, Eva? What's something ring you joy right now? Um,
Eva: well, oh, so I, I don't know Kyley if I've mentioned to you before, but I'm actually part of this. This collective for people of color.
It's, it's the, um, decolonial collective that I signed up with this doctor. Mm-hmm. Dr. Rossio. And, ugh, it is a joy to be in community with other people of color to talk about just, I think one community right now is so nice because, you know, we're in a pandemic. Um, [01:14:00] and so any type of community that I'm getting feels nourishing.
But I can just say there is something really powerful about a group of people. So it's also for women and fems. So it's so powerful just to hear other women. Passionate women doing this work and uncovering your own shit and, and all of that. So I feel really, it's, it's, I feel grateful and it also is a source of joy.
Oh, I love that. Yeah. Yeah. And you, Kyley, what's something that's bring you joy?
Kyley: So listeners know now I'm in weak. Well, it depends on when we release this, but I am in this real time, week two of full-time self-employment slash unemployment, depending on how you wanted to,
um, and, uh, I have been kicking and screaming about actually resting, right? Like for months and months and months. I was desperate. I would cry about wanting to rest and then I like got laid off and I was like, the last thing I can do is rest. [01:15:00] And so the universe has been just like hitting me over the head with like, no, really, just take deep breath, pause, stop, hustling, stop.
And I've been really, really, really ignoring it. But, um, finally, Finally, I'm actually listening and it turns out it's really nice to rest. And so like today, um, uh, our, our, I, I had the whole day with just me and my kids. My husband was working and like, it was just easy. We didn't do anything right? Normally when I'm with my kids, I'm like, I have to make it a great adventure cuz it's mom time.
But I was like, oh, we had a lot of mom time now, so we, we just like, you know, uh, like danced in the kitchen and did a silly art project and it just was nice to not have expectations to do or accomplish anything. And so, uh, yeah. Two weeks, I'm finally starting to listen. Turns out it's a good idea.
Spring: Rest.
Yeah.
Eva: [01:16:00] Yeah. Rest is always joyful.
Kyley: Yeah. It's the, it's hard to be you. You can't really be present if you don't let yourself rest. You can't like hustle your way into
Spring: presence. No. You have to treat your body well and you're, you take the time. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. So
Kyley: it's beautiful. Thank you. So spring, where can our listeners find you?
Spring: Well, they can go to my website. There's so much information there. Spring wash 'em dot com. I have a YouTube channel with some videos that I'll be updating and sharing just content on love, life, happiness, you know, all the good stuff. Um, and yeah, that's about it. And. Yeah. They can find out everything there.
Awesome. It's a good hub. Yeah. Yeah.
Eva: Wonderful. And your, your Instagram is also like the same, it's also Spring Wash
Spring: Em. Yeah, spring Wash Em and they can check out my book. A Fierce Heart Finding Strength, courage, and Wisdom in any moment. That's awesome. Available on Amazon and Awesome on Audible. I made an audible.
Oh, it's on Audible. [01:17:00] Yay. Yay. And did you record it? Is you I recorded it. I would never let someone else record a Fierce Heart. Oh
Eva: no. Good. Honestly, I love your voice and I wanna hear your voice on
Spring: that. So I would never have, I would've cried if they would've tried to even consider that. Yeah,
Eva: I heard. That makes me so happy that it's on Audible.
Cause I will be honest. It'll be a lot. Easier, like more accessible for me to go through it if it's on
Spring: Audible. Yes. I, I understand. Yeah. And so, and
Eva: also, but your Sunday meditations are still, or your Sunday Sundays
Spring: are going on? They can go to, I have a link on my website and it's the Church of Harriet.
It's all by donation. Anyone can come log on. Oh, wonderful. And, and it's really fun. We meditate, we share stories leaving Dharma and stories of Harriet's endless. That's amazing. And the Underground Railroad crew. Yeah. That's amazing. Okay. That's
Kyley: amazing. I will see you on Sunday then. Yeah, yeah.
Spring: Anytime. I love that.
Right. All right.
Eva: Thank you so much.
Spring: Thank you so much. I love you guys for all you do. Keep it up. Thank you. All right.