"Eva shares her powerful experience at a recent retreat, Byron Katie’s The School. We discuss the war within ourselves, projection, and embodying love so deeply you make people cry.
Eva shares her powerful experience at a recent retreat, Byron Katie’s The School. We discuss the war within ourselves, projection, and embodying love so deeply you make people cry.
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Eva's instagram: @iamevaliao
Book a discovery call with Eva
Kyley's Instagram: @kyleycaldwell
Kyley: [00:00:00] Hey, it's Eva.
It's Kyley.
Eva: Welcome back to hello universe.
Kyley: I am so excited that it's a Kyley and Eva episode.
Eva: Oh, me too. I just want to talk to you right now.
Kyley: I know. Oh, do you have anything we want to before we jump in? Because there is, okay. There are so many juicy things to discuss. Listeners, I've been online with Eva for a while now tonight, and I have been dying to not ask her questions about the things we're going to talk about on the show. Um, but before we get into all of the [00:01:00] like juicy esoteric and esoteric things we're going to jump into, um, do you need to promote?
Eva: Nope.
Kyley: Okay.
Eva: What about you?
Kyley: Yeah. Uh, by the time this airs, my virtual retreat will have ended. You're doing a, so you missed it, but if you messaged me, maybe I'll send you the replay.
Eva: Sad. Yeah. Get on that replay.
Kyley: Um, but that's our kickoff for alchemy. So doors are open on alchemy, um, which is my money and trauma healing course. Uh, and this can be about.
Money trauma, right? Like bankruptcy or, you know, identity theft, or it can be about money trauma, but most often it is actually about all of the, like, deep, deep childhood and other trauma that we process through money. And so it's a way of, like, really dramatically shifting the way you experience money and also.
everything because it [00:02:00] changes your relationship to love and safety and care. Um, I mean, the number one bit of feedback that we got after the last, uh, cohort was, um, uh, everything is different. This course has changed my life.
Eva: Yeah.
Kyley: that's not what you want to hear in a testimonial roundup is this course changed my life.
Then I don't know what you do. So if you would like to have your life changed in really juicy and religious ways, doors are open down in here.
Eva: I mean this course. Um, I know the details aren't necessarily always important, but I do, can you remind me how long it is again?
Kyley: It's a six month course.
Eva: Okay. Yeah, the reason I bring that up is because I think I want people to understand like the Significance of this course this isn't like so many money things out there and you could you know But this isn't this is like a life for the person who wants to obviously heal their relationship with money, but like [00:03:00] Heal deep seated long standing things in their soul and their heart through money as crucible So I mean this is about like rewiring everything
Kyley: yeah, rewiring it's, it's about rewiring how you receive
Eva: Yeah, and
Kyley: and receiving care and receiving money. If you've dropped out deep enough, they all live in the same place. So you rewire at that deep place and everything starts to shift. And so yeah, come rewire receiving on all the levels.
Eva: you know this course is for you if you've got some money shit like that's the thing like I I think There are people out there and some of you are listening. It's like, you know, like money is your teacher? How do you know? Because it's caused you a lot of suffering. Like, this is who this course is for.
It's like the people in which money causes you, you know, it's, it's a weird thing. That's how that like, is your identity is tied up in either because you can't make [00:04:00] money or you think that like money is bad, you know, all of these. Weird cringy icky moments that we have with money. Um, or it's just something that you're constantly stressed out about.
Kyley: Yeah, I mean, I would also offer we had an interesting run of people's experiences coming in last time. Right? Some people who for whom money was like, I can't even look at it without wanting to die of shame. And some people who've been doing money healing stuff for a while. And so they felt, I think. Uh, I don't think they would necessarily come in saying, oh, this is a super painful place, but they just felt the call to be in it.
Right. There was 1 woman who was like, money isn't even my thing. I don't know why I'm here, but I need to be here. Right. And, uh, she
Eva: Okay, that's actually helpful because I feel like that would be me like I don't obviously money will always be a teacher It's not that I don't have any money stuff but I could totally see myself signing up where I'm like money isn't like The portal to which I would feel like I do most of my learning, but also, but I [00:05:00] could sense me being like sensing the year, the energy of you and lives together and being like, oh, this feels important.
Kyley: Yeah. Yeah. And that person today sent me an email. She listens to podcasts. Hi. I love you. And she said, she sent, um, uh, a message that was just like, I can't put this into words, but I'm completely different on the other side. Right. Um, which is, I'll just as a side note is a hilarious thing. How frequently people say I can't put this into words.
And then I'm like, yeah. Imagine trying to write a sales page. Yeah. Yeah.
Eva: this kind of work is ineffable. It's, you know, language can't it's it's it's that's when, you know, it's. Meaningful because anything meaningful can't be captured in words anything real. I feel like it's limited by language,
Kyley: Well, that seems like the perfect transition.
Eva: Okay
Kyley: Let's try to put a bunch of language to your ineffable,
Eva: Yes experience.
Kyley: experience over the past couple of
Eva: All right. Well, I'm glad you're you you're front [00:06:00] loading that because I just got back last night And so I have been had any time to process this like I don't know you'd call it retreat thingy that I went on
Kyley: thingy.
Eva: Yeah thingy. And so I'm Listeners, I just forewarn you some of this might be choppy as I, as I'm processing in real time, but I went to a Byron Katie.
Byron Katie's the school. So I've been doing some people might be familiar. I've been doing something called the work, which was created by a woman named Byron Katie. We all call her Katie. Um, I've been doing that for like, Okay. Five or six years now, and this was with different facilitators, and this was my first chance to actually work with Katie, the originator herself, and even just the story of how, I don't know if this is interesting, basically.[00:07:00]
The story of how I even got to go was just mind blowing to me. I really felt like it was one of those synchronistic things because I was meant to go to Taiwan, you know, I guess I would just want to share, like, I do really feel like the universe just leads us sometimes to like where we need to go. And I made a declaration that like, next chance I get to go to the school with Byron Katie, like I will go.
That's what I said at the summer. Cause I was so, just so grateful for this work and. Like, out of nowhere, a totally unexpected opportunity, like, presented itself, and I, like, couldn't believe it, and I couldn't say no, basically. And I can say that I truly believe that this work is a path to no suffering. And I guess that feels really wonderful to say because I've seen it, [00:08:00] experienced it, in real time, over and over and over again. This is the real fucking deal. This is like the real thing. Um, so I guess I'll start off by talking about Katie herself.
Kyley: I actually ask a question before you
Eva: Yes, please ask me all the questions so I'm not just like, yeah.
Kyley: Um, can you explain a little bit what you mean by no suffering and maybe how that relates to like, Perfection versus paint, right? Because I, I asked this, it was like a little guy leading question because I think we pursue, I was just talking to someone about this today where they were sharing, like, oh, this like upsetting thing has happened. And like, does this mean that I'm not doing it? Right? Right. And we were talking about, like, is it a sign that you're not doing it? Right? Or does it just mean that like, Okay. It's a sign that you're fucking alive,[00:09:00]
Eva: hmm,
Kyley: And that like painful things are part of being alive. And so I think part of my question is, um, and what do you think it's state of no suffering is? Does that mean a state of not pain or how do you kind of
Eva: yeah,
Kyley: space for that? Does that question make sense?
Eva: Well, I want to start off by saying that I think the reason I choose the language No Suffering is because that is the Buddha's... One of the definition, the Buddha's definitions of enlightenment, which is like people think enlightenment is this like unachievable in, you know, superhuman thing when I think really what he's talking about in terms of like looking within is to get to a place where you don't, where there's.
If you, if you can explain, enlightenment is to just not experience suffering, which I think is just like resistance to life, no resistance to life, [00:10:00] in which you become a space that's just open, really, really open. When I talk about no suffering, it doesn't mean that there isn't pain. I think that's, you know, like what I feel like you're speaking to, which is such an important point is it doesn't mean there isn't pain. Suffering is something that comes on the coattails of pain. So I'm going to give like a really practical example. And this was something that she was talking about. Um, she was talking about an illness that she had like a, you know, she's 81 years old. She's got physical stuff, has had physical stuff come up.
Even though I swear to God, this woman is aging backwards. It's bananas. And I want to talk about that more too, but she was like, definitely experienced the symptoms of this. sickness, but I don't experience the suffering. So she experiences symptoms, which is what pain is. Let's just say you like break a leg or something like that, but there's no [00:11:00] suffering followed up by that.
And it was just so interesting to hear her talk about like, when she was her, her organs were failing and all of this like stuff was going on inside her body. She says that she was just fascinated by the whole thing. Like she just like was. in the experience of it, just experiencing it. And because I don't, you know, for various reasons, because I don't think she has too much of an attachment to past or future.
I don't think she cares if she lives or dies, you know, that's the thing that she talked about. That's why, you know, those are some reasons why it would be easy, I think, to have less suffering around it because the suffering is when you're in pain is like either anticipated or. Remembered, like that's where you're either in the past or the future, but just if you're in the now, constantly in the now, which is an [00:12:00] immeasurable amount of time, by the way, we cannot measure that amount of time.
There actually is no suffering in that moment because, and then you're just in that moment now, now, now, now, which, which has already passed, by the way, the now that I mentioned is already in the past. And so that's like a physical representation of how you can actually feel pain. that isn't followed by suffering.
You feel all the symptoms of it, but there's no resistance. There's no story. There's no, this is what it's going to, this is going to suck because I won't be able to walk. Or I'm also remembering last time I really hurt myself and that was painful. So that's like one way to describe it. But I feel like I've heard you describe it really well, like what you think the difference is between suffering and pain.
Kyley: Yeah, I like this. I like this. And maybe that maybe that's a false binary right this up, but that that's always the thing that comes up to me. But I think, um, I think the way I think about it is.[00:13:00] You know, I've spoken on the show before about having moments where, like, I have felt grief so deeply that I've watched it turn into love, and in some ways that feels relevant here. Side note, I was, last week, I had a day where I was drowning in grief, like, it was so heavy, and at one point in the day, I was like, what a fucking asshole that I walk around and talk about how grief can feel like, this just fucking sucks. I was, like, so mad at
Eva: I mean, but that's the truth. Like, I understand that sometimes, like, I'm willing to accept, not to say that I want to impart that on other people that like, I'm probably annoying sometimes, right? I'm fucking annoying to the person who's in the grief, and I'm like, I get it, dude. I'm annoyed by myself too sometimes.
Kyley: right, right. Yeah, exactly. Exactly. Um, and I really like your framing about resistance because Um, okay. I'll, I'll just give an example about grief. Okay. So there were actually two days last week. I had [00:14:00] heavy grief, but one day, um, was the two year anniversary of when my mentor will wise died. And I, I knew that intellectually when I woke up, like I knew that was the day that he had died, but I didn't like, I just kind of like filed it away.
They'd be like, okay, I'll sit and think about will later today. Right. And then all day I was just like, super sensitive, really bitchy, really reactive, like. Like I, I, I would, to the point that I was like, this is like a, this feels like my getting my, this is like maybe it's hormonal. Like it was like really, I was just very reactive to everybody around me.
And then it was like two in the afternoon and I was like, Oh, Oh, Oh, I'm sad. Cause my friend died. And all of a sudden I watched how I had been like resisting the, I had been resisting all day. Without even knowing that I was resisting and then like the dial [00:15:00] turned and I was just sad and then it was really beautiful and I was at one point like sitting in the living room crying with my kids and like They were being sweet and cute and like talking to me, but also doing their own thing.
Like, it was like, my grief didn't separate me from my family. Like I talked about Will with them. I was really happy and I felt like really, really loved. And, and I felt in awe of how cool my kids are, even as I felt really sad. And so it was, it was again, this like really beautiful transcendent moment. So that I, and I was more sad because I was feeling it, but it wasn't suffering.
It was pain, but I wasn't suffering versus all morning. I, there was a lot of moments of suffering because there was this. Unconscious resistance that was happening.
Eva: I, I, I love that. And [00:16:00] I actually think it's really hard to suffer when we're present. Like, what I'm hearing you say is like, basically, you were just giving, like, having your experience. And then there wasn't a story about your experience. It was just like, oh, this is what it is. I'm feeling my feelings, and I'm with my kids, and I'm crying.
But there's no dialogue about it. There's no analyzing, you know, there's just no story. It's just you being a human being. So, yeah, I don't know. I think I'm really... Interested. it's just, I think I'm really interested in no suffering for selfish reasons that I am not, you know, I don't feel bad about, like, I, I'm happy to admit, like, I, I do this work for completely selfish reasons because I can see so clearly how any war that is within me is just projected out into the world. Like, you know, she talks about, like, if you want to end [00:17:00] war. Start with yourself. That's how you end war, which is very on brand for hello universe. That is exactly what we've talked about You know in terms of like, you know, it's everything it just it's also I think the past couple episodes that we've had when we talked About what's going on? You know in the Middle East and I don't want to suffer Because I want to have a good fucking time, because I know that's what I came here to do. And I just saw so clearly, Kylie, this week, how much my own internal suffering is causing, um, shit that I don't want to cause in the world. It was another moment of when I noticed that I was the, you know, me being the seemingly perpetrated has become the perpetrator.
And it was, oof, not fun to look at, let me tell you, girl. Like,[00:18:00]
Kyley: You've actually just blown my fucking mind and I'm actually need to just sit and write something for a
It feels not fully baked. And also I don't want to take this on a detour, but I wanted to like, I wanted to anchor it in a little bit.
Okay. We're back from our intermission. Thank you for blowing my mind already. I'll share with listeners another time because it's not fully baked. You were talking about war. I mean,
Eva: Yeah, just um,
Kyley: that you would
Eva: I,
Kyley: to of how you saw yourself
Eva: it's hard to say, but it's that heartbreak medicine, I am really guilty of starting the war in a lot of ways that it's like so hard to see, like it's hard to look at actually, so like, You know, I want to say this was a theme for me this retreat. I've done other ones before and I think they're all they all have a different flavor and, and, and the energy is really different, but the energy of this one was like, they're always exhausting because.
undoing and [00:19:00] unraveling and the emotional releases that you have all of that is always exhausting and they're long ass fucking days too. I was waking up at six and, and we don't end until nine. Anyway, it's just like, you know, she and this woman, this 81 year old woman, she just keeps going, dude. Um, and I think it came up for me because I'm about to move to Taiwan where I'm stepping into pretty big, I don't know what I would call it, like a An opportunity, I think, where I'm going to be with my family, where shit, I guess you could say, maybe is a little bit messy.
could potentially be challenging. And so I think I was shown this week all the ways in which like I That are gonna allow me to show up so much more lovingly with my parents and other people Yeah, that like could [00:20:00] otherwise trigger me A lot. I wanted to think about this because I am sharing something a little bit personal But I think I can do it in a way that's not gonna hopefully make anyone feel uncomfortable. So Kylie knows the story a couple weeks ago I haven't actually shared much on social media about my views and perspectives on what's going on in the Middle East because I am of the belief that, like, if I don't totally, fully understand something, I don't have to.
I don't have to, like, voice my opinion. I don't have to. Anyway. Which, which in itself is, I think, an interesting thing because I feel like I've seen people out, be out there be like, No, you have to take a side and you have to voice something. If you don't say something, then it means you're a complicit. And I'm just like, I don't agree with that at all.
I, I think a lot of people do more harm. I think, yeah, I think you can do a lot more harm. Speaking about things if you feel forced to,
Kyley: Yeah. Yeah, just as an aside, I have also been feeling, it's [00:21:00] interesting, I've been feeling like a lot of guilt around that, like, I've been watching how I have felt guilty, even as we've had two lengthy podcasts about it, and I've facilitated, like in my group programs, we've facilitated like deep conversation about it, and so it's been interesting watching how much I have felt like, um, Yes, I'm like responsibility, like something about the like short form political stance thing that somehow feels like I'm doing wrong by not participating in and, um, Anyways, I've, that's the thing I've been watching is that that, that's the thing I feel like I'm taking my own private political action.
I am having like these deep nuance conversations, but somehow by not providing a headline, I can watch how I feel like I'm doing something wrong. So anyway,
Eva: Yeah. And, and I, and I want to be clear, like I was saying, if you feel called and passionate to [00:22:00] share something, then share something, but just don't do it from a place of, I don't know, like, because you feel like performance or the thing you have to, or, or obligation or, um,
Kyley: uh,
Eva: I haven't posted much, but I did post this one thing about, like, having, you know, calling your, um, like, Congress to, like, have a ceasefire, and in my mind, felt alignment with my values, and I had one of my Dearest friends who is currently, who was living in Israel, um, her and her sister came on Instagram and sent me message, just, I'm trying to want to be careful about this language, just like some pretty intense, hard to read messages about like how they felt like it was really fucked up essentially.[00:23:00]
And then I was unfriended by my friend of like, really good friend of like a 10 something years. And she said that I was, Only cared about being woke. She said I didn't love her anymore, that I wasn't a feminist. Like, what I felt like they were coming at me really hard. And, um, Immediately, I went into shame, and because I went into shame, I got real defensive, like, defensiveness was like, right there, and I was like, it all happened in a split second, but it was just so interesting to me that defensiveness was the first thing that came up, because I was just trying to protect myself, and I had, I, the story was like I didn't do anything wrong.
I'm just calling for a ceasefire. Like, you're tripping, girl. Like, like, how could you, how could you extrapolate all that from like one post and also how could you, um, I'm so insulted that you thought that all I cared about was being woke and, you know, I had to retort for every comment. [00:24:00] And so I had to go through this whole phase.
So that was interesting to see. And then, um, that lasted not too long. And then I eventually landed in a place where I was like, Oh, I see what's happening, like lots of compassion. It's like so much compassion. Cause I was like, uh, she's experiencing capital T trauma right now. And. I can understand why would respond that way, like, um, yeah, just having like lots of compassion of like, yeah, when you're fighting for your life and your nervous system is like just all pumped all the way up, like anything's going to feel like a threat, right? So that happened. So then I, so, but I still didn't know really how I want to respond because I was anyway, all these things I had, I didn't know how I wanted to respond and hadn't responded yet.
And then I get to the retreat, and to be clear, so you guys know what Byron Katie's The Work is all about, it's about questioning everything [00:25:00] that you think you know. It's literally investigating everything from the most mundane thing to the nature of reality. So it's like, it's like, people have psychic breaks at these retreats.
Like, it's not uncommon because you're questioning everything. And that can be a lot if maybe you're dealing with some like mental illness or whatever, right? So, um, I guess the way that I noticed that I was being the perpetrator is I really looked at what she was saying and I looked within myself and I was like, she's not wrong, but there is a part of me that wants to be woke. There really is. And at first that was the thing that I got most offensive about because I was like, you say that? Like, she doesn't, she knows me. Like, I really care deeply and I identify as someone who blah, blah, blah. And I was like, I just listened. I think what was different was I just listened to what she was saying.
And I was like, can I find truth in what she's saying? [00:26:00] And I was
Kyley: Um,
Eva: oh my God, she's right. I do care about being woke. And I want to be perceived as someone who. Whatever woke means cares or like is into social justice. Like I really care about that and it's very humbling to see She's not wrong
Kyley: yeah.
Eva: And I don't know it the weird thing who's like it was so refreshing to admit that and the other weird thing is I don't Actually think I could have seen that if I wasn't investigating like it just completely below my consciousness like completely unconscious.
And so I'm trying to think of, like, how I became, oh yeah, so how I became the perpetrator was I was really defensive and, and I just got kind of stuck, right, and I realized I could just ask her, what do you need,
Kyley: Um, yeah.
Eva: you are in a [00:27:00] place where I should be asking you what you need, regardless of, you know, whatever, you know, all this other trivial shit, um, but I wasn't able to do that because I started this War within me where it either had me sort of literally being violent in my mind.
And you know, I hope you guys understand what I mean when I say violent is like, not, I'm not fighting anyone, but you can feel those thoughts that you have about people when you're arguing with someone, when you're judging someone, judging someone on social media, you're, it feels so crappy. I hate that feeling.
I really hate it. It's, it's violent and it's, ugh, and I've always known. that there was just this misalignment anytime I felt judgement about something, you know, or defense or whatever, angry at someone and blah, blah, blah. Like, but I couldn't really pinpoint, I don't know, like,
Kyley: Yeah, it's like, that's like, it feels in my body, it feels like spiky and sharp, you know, there's like kind of like reactive, churned [00:28:00] up spiky energy that's, um, sometimes directed at me and sometimes directed at other people. And then sometimes just swinging wildly back and forth between the
Eva: yeah. And I think it's painful. Like, I think that's what I've noticed is that it's painful because I think what happens is it causes separation. And that is actually just whether we know it or not is just painful for all of us that's not actually how we are. And I just, anyway, so
Kyley: . I really appreciate this example because I, I, what I really love, I love many things about this. I love your willingness to see yourself in uncomfortable ways. And I really appreciate this reflection that what a loving act to be willing to really sit with the truth of when someone says something that hurts, it's really, it can be, it's, I think it's a really profound way to love that person [00:29:00] is to really look and see.
Eva: Yeah.
Kyley: Where is this true? How might this be true? Which is not the same thing as like self flagellation. I mean, part of what I hear you talking about is kind of this pendulum swing that we can do between villain and victim and villain and victim. And, um, like, ah, I'm the worst. No, she's the worst. And, um, and, and I just think that this alternative of like really being willing to sit with where there might be truth, one being really willing to sit with compassion towards.
Your friend is a really loving act, but then really, I think, I think it's a bold and uncomfortable thing to say, well, this really hurts, but maybe it's true and
Eva: Yeah.
Kyley: I'm just going to, I'm going to let that sit there.
Eva: Well, that's why, yeah, it's that heartbreak medicine. It's painful, but also it's so liberating. I think this is what I think is so important about this is like, we do [00:30:00] this work because we don't actually see that. It's actually all of these things that we are unconscious to that are clogging up our pipes to like, this divine joy and love and connection that we all are capable of feeling with everything and everyone, but we don't, we're not even aware to it yet.
And so that's why it's like, I, it's like, I don't, I saw myself like just seeing these things clearly. And what came in was love. It wasn't guilt and it wasn't shame. I mean, maybe it was a little bit of shame, but also there's not that much shame because there's like so much understanding there that it's just all I see is Love and how much I love my friend and how much I yeah, how much I just love my friend fuck politics aside, you know what I mean, which is something that can so easily divide us and God and I could see like, oh Like, because I was being defensive, like, I could have gone, and I did, I had [00:31:00] shared my experience with a couple of close people and the people confirmed my reality, which is like, she's overreacting a little bit, or she's, or she's being reactive, or, um, you know, whatever, whatever, and of course they're going to say that because, like, they're all people who I know, who live in, you know, so they just are going to confirm my reality, which is a very dangerous thing.
you know?
Kyley: You know, I think the other thing.
that I think is meaningful about this is that you didn't write back to your friend in a, from a, like, you didn't write back to your friend, you know? uh, to say, well, let me tell you why I'm right. Right. You didn't write back from that defensive place. And you also didn't write back from that, like, shiny place, right. Of like, Oh, like, you know, um,
Eva: Yeah. Where I was. Yeah. Mm-Hmm.
Kyley: And, and I think I point that out because I think, like, basically your first pass through this experience was to watch your own shame and defensiveness, [00:32:00] then to create an opportunity to just welcome tremendous compassion. Like, that's a tidy story, right?
Eva: Yeah. Exactly.
Kyley: that, like, that's already a tidy,
Eva: And I was, I was like, I was like, okay, that's where I'm gonna land. Like, look at me, I've come to compassion. Great.
Kyley: All right. I love my friend. Great.
And I think what's really beautiful here is. It's a terror. It's a terrible and liberating thing to be willing to see the ways in which I don't know, we're terrible. We're villains, right? Like to actually just like, let it be true and then not have to be reactive to it.
So I think one of my questions for you is, do you feel space or different relationship to this, like, identity tug around wokeness since that was one of the things that you felt most defensive about,
Eva: yeah, I don't think I feel such a need to be woke.
Kyley: [00:33:00] I'm
Eva: Meaning, if it comes naturally, which it does in some respects, you know, like, that's, that's different. That's not wokeness, that's just me ness. You know what I mean? But, there isn't, I don't have a concern, I think, with, with whether or not I am doing the right thing by being woke, or if my, uh, does that make sense?
Kyley: curious to know, then I want to come back to like more about the retreat, but I feel like whenever that shame defensiveness, like pendulum swing starts happening for me. That feels like there's a sign that like, there's something here, right? Like there's something, there's something about what's being said or what's being activated that I feel scared that I feel scared that it might be true.[00:34:00]
Right. In this instance, you saw there was truth in what she was saying. Other times it might be that we're just afraid that what's being said is true or that we're afraid that what's being projected is true. But I feel like I'm curious if this is your experience too. But that shame. Defensiveness swing is always an indicator to me that. Yeah. There's something that I'm really afraid is true and therefore actually I'm quite attached to believing is true.
Eva: Mean there's something, you mean, let's just say if it's about yourself, you mean,
Kyley: Yeah. Yeah. Like, you know, if, if someone, if a friend is mad at me and I might exert the pendulum swing, maybe it's because I'm really afraid that I'm a bad friend because I actually really believe that I'm a
Eva: right. Right.
Kyley: And so there's some swing. And so this thing that you were willing to do of like sit in the truth of it is actually I think a really profound way to get that swing to stop because. Because it's like, okay, [00:35:00] if I'm afraid I'm a bad friend and I go and I just sit in the place of bad friend, then I don't have to run away from it anymore. And I can metabolize how much it might be true
Eva: Mm-Hmm.
Kyley: realize that I've survived the ways it might be true. And then space shows up.
Eva: So I think what you're speaking to is like dead on in that. What I saw, I mean, we all kind of know this already to a certain extent. It's like you only get defensive about something because you're afraid it's true. You, because you're ident, you're identified with it. If you're not identified with it, you don't get defensive about it.
And so that's what's scary about criticism that hurts is because there's a part of you that is just. Even if it's a really quiet whisper, you either know it's true or you're afraid it's true. And so what I've also seen is that no one can hurt me if I don't already
Kyley: Mm. [00:36:00] Mm.
Eva: So it has nothing to do with the other person.
Nothing to do with the other person. It is what are we holding inside. And that is so... Like, also liberating, but you can't be harmed by something you don't identify with. And so, really, it's just an opportunity to see, like, do you identify with this thing? Okay, so let's just say for me, like, whatever, wokeness, right?
Um, I guess admitting it, that I, that I care about it, I was defensive, because it was either my greatest fear, or I was afraid that it was true, or whatever. And then, um, and then what happened? And then it was like, I don't know, then there was like a release. of some sort. And then it was like, do I hold this against myself?
I guess is what it felt
Kyley: Oh, I love that. I love that.
Eva: Yeah, it's like, it's like, do I hold this against myself? Because if I [00:37:00] do, everyone else who does is a threat. If I don't, it's not a threat. Like, that's, that's what was amazing about all this, too, was just seeing how, like, I walked through the world. Again, so unconscious, like sensing that things are a threat, because I'm afraid of being cast out of love.
And so anything that has the potential of casting me out of love, even if they don't mean to, right, because I just am projecting that on is a threat. And then there's a sense of separation. And what I'm also what I saw so clearly was like, Oh, I don't know, like, when I am love myself and secure with myself, I don't have to be afraid of anyone else.
Yeah, maybe. Yeah. It can be manipulated, I think, by things outside of myself.
Kyley: [00:38:00] [00:39:00][00:40:00] [00:41:00][00:42:00] [00:43:00][00:44:00] You know, I, I have a, like a small, funny, small example of this. I had this boss when I was in my twenties who we did not get along. He was very British, like old school. I've had many, many British bosses before, which is very funny. Like academic publishing is a small world, but he was like, when I say he was very British, what I mean is that he was of the, of the, um, He was not very straight forward.
He was right. And I am very American in that way that I am very straightforward. Um, and [00:45:00] so, um, I get old school for just, that's what I was trying to think of old school anyway. So, uh, um, we were constantly butting heads, but in this like weird, passive aggressive way. And the two things that he didn't like about me were, he also was in Britain, so he didn't actually ever see me working.
So they were all made. They were a lot of projection going both ways. Anyway. He thought that I was lazy and he didn't think I was very smart.
Eva: Mm
Kyley: And I use, I tell the story because what's always was, was, this was a moment where I start first saw this thing that you're talking to because. I just thought it was funny that he didn't think I was smart
Eva: hmm. Mm hmm. Mm hmm. Yeah, exactly. Because you didn't identify with it.
Kyley: like I know I'm smart.
So I don't actually give a shit if you think I'm smart or not because I'm very confident that I am very smart, but I do have a lot of baggage about how hard I work. Do I work hard enough at the time? I didn't realize I had ADHD. And so like, that's like a [00:46:00] classic thing for us is that we like, you know, laziness shit.
And I, oh, I was, I mean, it was, I can, I could go back there if I want to right now, like, just like the pit in my stomach about him thinking this and. Like it was entirely a hundred percent about me and me and me. And like he was obnoxious and not a good boss. And it was actually fucking irrelevant. Like his opinion hurt only in the places where I was already hurting myself there.
Eva: hmm. Yeah. I think it's like we can't be oh, there's a phrase that's like it's like That kind of negativity can't create but just be I think I've heard Pilar Lesko say this it doesn't create can only be you can only infiltrate so like, yeah, and I think that's I think she was saying that about like darkness in general, like, you can't be, I don't think darkness can like, I mean, I don't even know I mean by darkness, but, but like, I can't create in you.
It just is if there's an opening [00:47:00] for it, then you're more susceptible. Yeah. Yeah.
Kyley: yes, yes, yes,
Eva: Um, I don't know. I'm like, so, you know, I want to give a couple more examples, actually, as
Kyley: yes. I was just gonna ask, so I wanna pivot back to Yes.
Eva: yeah, about how I see that I was a perpetrator. This one, I can't believe I didn't start with this one. This was the one I started with, because this was hilarious to me.
The prejudice that I have against, like, false... Spiritual YouTubers, like, whatever, I call them false spiritual gurus. I fucking cringe when I see this shit. You know me, I mean, you, I think you get it, like, cringe when I see these people on YouTube who are like, Manifest the life of your dreams, if you're not rich already, you're not doing it right, you know, all the shit that we hate on all the time, right?
Um, and of course, and also like, I don't know, whatever, spiritual influencers that, like, make me do that, the bleh.
Kyley: Mm-Hmm. [00:48:00]
Eva: obviously I know that I can say that the reason I, I, it makes me cringe triggers me so much is because that's like what I'm afraid of coming across as right. And I just have this like list here.
I think I wrote that they were like something like they were that they're disgusting. I have really harsh language about them because it just shows how How much they affect me and how they were like inauthentic and disgusting and whatever. I had some pretty harsh things and I don't know, I know, I don't know if this is gonna land for like the listeners, but I could just, there was just a moment where I could see.
I'm being really disgusting in the attacking that I do on these people who I don't know.
Kyley: yeah.
Eva: I don't, I don't, know. And also, I don't know that they're wrong, because I never actually listen to what they have to say. [00:49:00] I'm just straight up judging them. And how many times, and you know me, I roll my eyes at something, I think it's fucking stupid, I'm very critical, I'm very cynical, and then, of course, six days, six months later, I'm humbled because I'm like, oh, yep, turns out this thing is great.
Kyley: I mean, what I actually think is funny is that I don't think you're very critical or very cynical. I don't like, I don't think you're a cynical person at all. I think of cynicism as like a very close hearted, not curious about investigating or,
Eva: not cynical, maybe skeptical, like, what's the thing where you're always rolling your eyes at, you know? I feel like I do that a lot.
Kyley: um, I mean, we have spoken about this particular thing. I do think that there's, this is the sort of thing like you and I are both critical of and We interact. I don't actually think what I, cause my follow up comment was going to be how, how intense, like when you actually dropped into this judgment, it is really intense.
And also I do not think you are an intensely judgmental person. Like in [00:50:00] the spectrum of being people, I don't actually think, or if, or if I was like speaking to the traits that are yours that are loudest, like judgment isn't actually like super high on the radar. And yet, when you actually peel the lid off, it's like, Oh, yeah, there's lava in here.
Eva: Yes. Yes. Thank you. Oh my God. Thank you so much for just so eloquently saying that because I don't think I would have the language for it. But yeah, I was like, yeah, if you asked me if I was a judgmental person, I'd be like, fuck no. I'm like all about people living their lives. I don't give a, like, I love it when people just are doing whatever they want to do to make them happy, make themselves happy.
Like I love that. I'm like, be free. But this investigation does is it shows you. What lives inside of you that we don't know that we don't always see and which is a gift because if I can't see it, I, I can't do anything about it. It just, it lives within me forever. And [00:51:00] so the, yeah, the inquiry is, it's just eyeopening.
Yeah. You see yourself really clearly, which thank God, because yeah, the seeing of a negative is the greatest positive, just a Vernon Howard quote. Mm
Kyley: know what's interesting, sometimes it's only happened like two weeks ago, it was very recently. As I was doing my, you know, frequent, far too frequent, uh, Instagram or Facebook scroll. And I came across a handful of people that tend to like, really great on me and I mean to unfollow them. And then I, you know, either hate follow or like, don't get around to the unfollow.
And it was, it, what was fascinating was I watched how my entire energy just felt like it might, they felt, it's hard to even put it into words, but I watched how my engagement with just their energy [00:52:00] completely shifted. Like, All of a sudden I just didn't feel angry and bitter. All of a sudden I just, I just felt.
Different there. It was been, it's like, this is like a 10 day old thing, right? Like I don't think they, it was like four people in a row. Like I don't think they all changed, and I don't think I even to the point of like, peel off the lid and there's like lava. I don't actually think I would've even realized that these were people that I was like about right?
Until I like flipped by them and watched how different my response was and I thought, oh, I don't know what I shifted. But something big has like something I have, I have let go of some big thing that I was like whipping myself over because all of a sudden now these people are neutral where previously they may not a hundred percent neutral, but far more as it was before they were then papery.
I didn't even know. I didn't even know that they were sandpaper until they weren't.
Eva: Yes. Yeah, exactly. You don't even know until you have something to [00:53:00] compare it to. And what I want to say, but I love that you use the word neutral because sometimes it is just about getting to neutral. Like that's, that's the word, you know, it's like, that's where we can land. It's like neutral. You're just un, unaffected.
And then what I noticed this week was that not only could it be neutral, but I can love them. Like not from a cheesy, like, Oh, I like, it's like, Oh, I get it. I love you because you are me and I am you. And we are like, if I,
Kyley: if I,
can hate you because you're me, I could love you
Eva: Love you cause you're me. Yeah. And I really do feel like any harm that I do to you, I'm doing to myself and any harm that I'm doing to myself, I'm doing to you. Like, you know, that phrase, like we don't see things as we are. We don't see things as they are. We see them as we are. Right. Is that
Kyley: Ooh, yeah, I have heard that before.
Eva: And I think I was like, I was like, Oh, I get it now. I don't see people as they are. I see them as I am. And it's all a projection. Every single fucking person is people who I love and people who I can't stand are all a projection, all my own fucking projection. And if I [00:54:00] don't love someone, that's not on them.
That's on me because it is my fucking projection and looking at all the things that get in the way of that universal love that I think is. we really are and, and on the other end of that that's so liberating is people also don't see me as I am, they see me as what how they are, as they are. And I was like, really freaked out about that because I was like, wait, but I need, but I like having the illusion of control that I can control how people perceive me.
But then obviously after a while, you know, I flipped a little bit and I could be like, Oh, I get it. There's nothing I can fucking do to control the way that people see me, nothing. And I've seen, and I just talked to you about that not long ago where I was like, I'm living the fucking life of my dreams and I can have people come and look at me with pity, you know?
And, and, and it just, I'm just like, Oh, so that means all I have to do is just be true to myself. And then that is actually the gift that I give to the world.[00:55:00]
And it was like, wow, I'm never gonna be able to contour it. Yeah. We know this. You know how people see me. It's, it's they can,
Kyley: you're saying is you're having one of those moments where like, I knew this and I didn't know this. Right.
Eva: Yeah. Or I know it when I know it more deeply.
Kyley: Yeah.
Oh, what's interesting is because when you were speaking to how overt of course I am seen, like, I'm, I'm seen by everyone seeing a project their projection of me. It was interesting how you're.
Response was, but I wanted to control how people respond to me and what immediately came up for me is, Oh, but then I'm alone. This feeling of like, Yeah. just, if I'm not seen, I'm just, if you can't, if no one can, if no one can see the real me or know the real me, then I'm alone, which I share only because Transcribed by https: otter.
ai Like my, I got a fucking abandonment wound, like that's my [00:56:00] whole thing. And so no, I whole thing, but like, that's like, that's, that is a thing that shows up for me. And I am always fascinated by how the same, basically the same data set creates like a totally different, you know, concern or reaction. Right.
So
Eva: Hmm. That's interesting.
Kyley: fascinating. So do you want to keep listing for us all these wild places where you saw yourself as perpetrator, you want to
Eva: I wanna give like one more example and then I wanna speak on Katie herself. I, for I think one example where I noticed where I was a perpetrator, which I think is gonna be really helpful, and I say this all anyway, there's like so much crying , but um,
Kyley: I was just going to ask, like, what happens when you have one of these break when you, when you're like, yeah, actually, before you go to the next one that you go through this whole thing, right? And you see, like, you actually see all the disgust and judgment and then you actually walk yourself through to the place of, you know, all of these [00:57:00] places we've spoken to, like.
I mean, are you, are you crying? Are you laughing? Are you like squirmy and uncomfortable? Like, what's the, what's the journey like?
Eva: that's a good question. , I think for me.
Kyley: Wait, sorry. Also one more question. Is this something that you do? Like it's a series of prompts and you're just like, God, you go on an inner investigation. Is it like a dialogue? Cause when you facilitated the work for me before it's been obviously a dialogue where you're asking me, but in the retreat setting, is it like, okay, scripting, here's your next.
You're like, how can I, I'm also kind of
Eva: yeah, yeah. Okay. So, so the work is this like facilitation thing that you do and you pair up with someone so a lot of it is just like paired facilitation. No, not a lot. A third of it is that another third is just like these fucking wild ass like activities that [00:58:00] Katie has, has put together based on her own experience.
So that, so for instance, listeners aren't going to know what we're talking about, but that shame exercise that we did in, in Loving Yourself Into Power, that's a Byron Katie one, um, that's, so it's like that, and you do one of those, like, some type of activity like that every day, and so there was another one, okay, so for instance, the prejudice one, where I noticed my prejudice against like these spiritual gurus, is that we have to actually like, take on the persona of the spiritual guru, or the thing that you hate the most, And then act it out to another, to another person.
And I can't go into, like, all the
Kyley: Oh my God. I immediately, whoa, whoa. Wholly uncomfortable.
Eva: But it, it, and then you do, and then you pair up with someone, and you ask the questions that are involved in the work. And, oh no, there was this prompt that was, the prompt was, you are not like me. You are not like me. And [00:59:00] so I'm looking at someone who's the thing that I, like, really am prejudiced against.
And there's so many things about, like, Palestine and Israel, Trump supporters, Republicans, Democrats, like all that stuff, right? And you're sitting across from someone being like, you are not like me. And you're, and the question is, is it true? And there's more to it, but basically what I'm trying to outline is like, there's this really intentional, present, like, um, facilitation that's happening that's really going to make you question like these things.
And
Kyley: I'm even fascinated by trying to pick, I'm also just fascinated, like watch flipping through my Rolodex to be like, what's the prejudice kind of rate? Like, what is the, like, what's the stickiest thing that I'm have a pot of lava about that? I don't, you know, I'm
Eva: know, yeah, you like just write out a list and you just let your ego show you.
Kyley: Yeah. Yeah. Like, I guess you're saying like the surface level of this exercise feels like its [01:00:00] own illuminating and uncomfortable thing.
Nevermind having to
Eva: And so people are sharing all the things that they're prejudiced against. And one person is going to stand up and say, I'm prejudiced against Democrats. And the other person is going to stand up and say, I'm prejudiced against Republicans. I mean, you have two people in the room who are prejudiced against, you know, it's like, it's just so bad, but you know, she, there's a, there's a whole long list, right?
Terrorists, pedophiles, you know, whatever, you, you, people who harm, harm the environment and the, yeah. And. The thing is what I'm seeing is that peace is never gonna fucking happen if I'm just carrying this prejudice and like the separation within me. It's not. It's just not the way. It's impossible because I can't meet these people with compassion.
It's just more finger pointing, more blame, more,
Kyley: Yeah.
Eva: or the problem is I'm not.
Kyley: Well, and I also think it's, um, what you're pointing to is it's also a [01:01:00] masking and hiding and rejection of the ways in which you are. Like hating yourself or rejecting yourself or prejudiced, like judging yourself. Right. And so not.
only is it this like performance of like finger pointing and separation and division, but it's also like an unwillingness to, to like, actually see our own fucking ugliness.
Cause we all have, right. We all have ugliness inside of us, whether we act on it or not. Is there, is that, is like, in some ways actually relevant, it exists and it's part of you. And. If you pretend that it's not, if you pretend that you're love and light only, that's, you know, that's definitely one that I have a lot of judgment around.
Then, like, you, um, are, are, Yeah. like, you're just, like, you're just separating it, you're just, you are the internal separation. That's a lot. It's a fucking lie.
Eva: [01:02:00] Yeah, yeah,
Kyley: Okay. So anyway,
Eva: wait, but so I want to speak to this idea of like, you asked, like, what happens though, like, because I think all soupy and you're all like, oh, my God, I'm the perpetrator. And like, I feel, and, but I think what is important about this practice is it also shows you how innocent this other, the innocence in people, the innocence in people.
And so. It's like, oh, this thing that I thought was so terrible, or this person I thought was so terrible, I can actually, like, have compassion for, and if they're so terrible, and I also have the same traits, I can also have compassion for myself, so, so it does feel hard to To have to admit the truth of our own, where we're guilty, which then also we go and we make amends, and there's, there's practices that, whatever, that can follow from that, but it's also like seeing that we're all innocent, we're all innocent, and, oh, yeah, yeah, that's really powerful,
Kyley: a word that you have used like in [01:03:00] privately when, when I have needed care and love, you have said that to me many times and, um, I really appreciate your use of that word because I can also watch how I only intellectually receive it.
Eva: yeah,
Kyley: So I just, I just watched that. Like I love you saying that. And I also love my reaction.
That's like some sort of a, like, cool, cool, cool, cool, cool, moving on. Yeah.
Eva: This is how it is for me with all these things. It's like someone says something and I don't know if it lands for if I don't know if I can let that in and then it's a seed that's planted though and then and then you and then you keep moving and one day I think it's all the seeds that are planted that eventually like grow the tree where it will.
Um,
so I think the other thing that is supportive when you're feeling, I mean, this is just like one piece of it, like one piece of like the soupiness. Right. But, but, um, the thing that I think makes it easier to [01:04:00] sit with everything that we're, we're seeing clearly is just Katie herself. And so I want to talk about her because
I. I will not deny that I'm fascinated by the experience of being someone who, for lack of a better word, is like enlightened.
Kyley: Hmm.
Eva: So for people who don't know her story, she has her, her, she has an Eckhart Tolle story. It was just like in deep, deep, deep, deep suffering. And then one day, boom, a cockroach climbed on her leg and she just woke the fuck up.
And she like. Didn't even remember that she had family and had to go relearn everything and navigate through the world as a fully just like Unseparated human and then like slowly she's like come back. Anyway, so
Kyley: Yeah, Her story is like, I don't, I have never, I haven't been to any retreats. I've never done the work, but I have listened to her tell her story. And like that alone, I recommend people go and just like, [01:05:00] listen to her, tell her story because you're just like, what the fuck?
Eva: Yeah, but the truth is it's not different from Eckhart Tolle
Kyley: No, exactly.
Eva: suffering and the one day you're just like What the fuck and then you're sleeping on park benches For a while.
Kyley: But very happy about it.
Eva: Yeah, like, that's how both of them ended up. She was just like a person in the street, he was a person in the street, and could not be more happy.
They were blissed out of their fucking minds, right? Um, there was, I think it was just,
Kyley: side note. I'm sorry. I have to interject.
Eva: yes, please.
Kyley: That is that right there is a tremendous fear that I have.
Eva: Which part? Can
Kyley: the, that, um, it's like, it's like a low rumbling, tremendous fear. Right. But like, if I, I feel like you talk about being afraid of that, you're going to lose your mind and I Can watch how much, uh, like.
I am afraid of like letting things be really easy, like letting myself like put down the suffering to put the beginning of the show, right? We talked about suffering and I, [01:06:00] I am aware and it's like coming in louder that I'm actually really afraid that if I actually let down suffering and the more I let down suffering that I will actually become like unhinged in an irresponsible way that will lead to ultimately all comes down to like that.
I'm afraid I'll abandon my kids. Right? And that like. Okay. It's irresponsible to let myself stop suffering because I
have to be here for them. And so I have to, like, take on the suffering that we know as being human. And I can't choose
Eva: interrupt? So you're saying if you didn't suffer, then you'd be what, like, crazy?
Kyley: Then I would be like, I would, I would be so blissed. I would be like, I would be in this kind of enlightened bliss state and then which I wouldn't give a shit about anything and then I wouldn't get them sandwiches on time. And I would like float away and leave. And I'm not tethered to them by being a like suffering human as their mother, then I will just float away and they'll be alone.
Eva: Yeah, I [01:07:00] mean, that's a good story. But, and I would. With all of these stories that we have like I'm always like oh and also could it be the opposite that you would be like This amazing mother who I mean not that you aren't already but like it would just be know a dance Unlike one that you've danced before
Kyley: yeah It's just interesting watching because for listeners, before we hit record, I was talking about, um, this relationship to letting things be easier. That's been coming up. And so I could just, it, I'm feeling, I'm feeling the pins drop around, like letting it be easier and suffering versus pain. And, um, and then just now, as you were talking about like Eckhart Tolle and Byron Katie living on park benches, I can feel the me that's like, yeah, it's irresponsible to actually like, let yourself get. Who happy in a like spiritually open kind of way. It's irresponsible to let [01:08:00] yourself get like too powerful and magical because then you, you know, how you leave the people that you love. Anyway, just tucking that in. We're going to sit with that later.
Eva: that's the story that we all that's like the version of the story that we all have it's like we can't be I mean I know Yeah, I, I think my, you know, there's so many ways that we stop ourselves from being happy. Like, I have had this moment of, I can't be too happy. Like, we had this conversation about joy.
Like, I'm afraid of being too joyful or else I'm going to be fucking, in a way, I'll be alone because actually everyone will, I'll just be annoying and obnoxious and everyone's going to hate me. You know, which is not exactly the same thing. And also kids is higher stakes, but it's just this idea that we actually think joy and, and non suffering and peace are like
Kyley: dangerous.
Eva: dangerous.
Kyley: Yeah, they feel dangerous. And you know what?
Eva: when it's a thing that we want more, more than we, it's a thing that we want more than anything else.
Kyley: also, they are fucking dangerous because what's actually going to change the whole fucking world is if all of a [01:09:00] sudden, like, if we all had Kyron, Kyron, Byron Katie's cockroach moment and like all lost our damn minds in the best possible way, right?
Like it is actually dangerous. I mean, this is the thing we've been talking
Eva: changes to the world that we know.
Kyley: Yes, exactly. Like, like, how do we, how do you end war? Like you get fucking dangerous and this is how you get fucking dangerous. It is dangerous. It does change everything. Like
Eva: Yeah. Well, it's dangers to the status quo. Yes. It's
Kyley: and to the status quo.
and the status quo is suffering.
The status quo is war. The status quo is unimaginable cruelty. So it is dangerous. But it's not dangerous to love. It's dangerous to all of these like really terrible fucked up things that we hate.
Eva: Dangers to fear. Yeah. Yeah. Damn, I love this. And oh my God. And, and, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes. And also, I wanna have, we've talked about this, Kylie and I we're gonna have a whole conversation about going crazy, [01:10:00]
Kyley: Mm hmm. Mm
Eva: of anyway, I can't wait to have that conversation because that's my greatest fear and it's kind of connected But this idea of like what I've what I've seen is that the more sane I become the more insane I am here to other people like like because it's actually more sane to be peaceful but then when we are peaceful people think you're fucking like in what there are ways in which people are like Oh you are whatever.
I don't know just what? Disconnected or I don't know. I have so many examples that I cannot wait to share on that episode
Kyley: hmm. Mm
Eva: but I want to talk about Byron Katie. So like, so there was this one day where she just, we had done a lot of undoing and she put on a song and she's sitting in her chair She just, I mean, again, she's just this, she's an 81 year old woman, but she just looks so alive and she's so glowy.
And I love that she's a [01:11:00] woman. I love that she's like a spiritual teacher. Who's a woman, actually. That's also very cool to me. Cause I feel like so many of like the spiritual people that we know are men, not all, but I love that she's a little old woman. She's so cute, but she's so fierce. And she's also so loving.
Anyway, sorry, she puts on this song, it's just this lovely song, and we're just all sitting there quietly, and she just like takes time to look at every single person in the room for a moment, with her really piercing gaze. And so many people, so many people, including myself, just started to cry, just because of the way that she was looking at us.
Because I was, what I saw in that moment was a person who loved herself and had no story about herself. It was like... a person who had no judgments about herself so she could look me clearly in the eye without holding back. And it [01:12:00] was like, I was so moved by the intimacy of that and the honesty of that.
And all I saw was just like felt was just love. So beautiful. I could actually cry again. It was just so it was, that's like, it was, that's love. It was like capital L love, not romantic love, but like consciousness love or something. And. And I think I share this story not to, not, it has nothing to do with being like, Oh, this is an enlightened person and pedestalizing this person because it's actually the opposite.
Kyley: .
It feels like when I'm when I'm receiving is that because she in the way the way in which Mm hmm. She is without story and then like you could see yourself like just love in her like, yeah, I did. I'm also having trouble. I'm feeling of, I'm feeling an echo of [01:13:00] what you're speaking to. And I was like, Oh Yeah. Yeah.
Okay. Maybe I can do this more. It's like, Oh no. But I'm also trusting that our listeners, because what you're speaking to is the kind of transmission that happens outside of language.
Eva: Yeah.
Kyley: So I think I can also trust that our listeners can feel and hear what you're. Saying outside of language, because there's
Eva: you for that. Cause I mean, yeah, yeah, I agree. I think, you know, listeners can get it, but I just wish I, that's my guesstimate, like ego range just wants to get it. The sense of like, if. I don't see people as they are, but as I am, like, that's kind of what I felt like I was seeing is like, she is love and I am also love and we are not separate.
And. In a sense of like, this is actually who we all are, I really believe that, like we, at our core, it's just like this [01:14:00] beautiful, what's, it's like she's modeling and helping me remember, actually, that that's actually who we are, you know, we, you and I say this all the time, like we are love, but it's like, what does that actually mean?
What does that feel like? And it's like, well, that's what it feels like,
yeah, so I guess one of my big takeaways, and then I know it's late, so I want to let you go soon, but When I feel so great. I feel so full of gratitude for this experience and not and all my experiences before because every one of my experiences with the work has been has truly had like change that has lasted forever.
It's not one of those things like it's there for a while and it goes away.
Kyley: Yeah.
Eva: Some stuff goes away, but some of it is eternal. And, um, I believe I'm leaving feeling so.
Like, relieved, and also just like, [01:15:00] confident. That's what it is. Confident. Because what I feel confident is, is like, Oh, living a happy, joyful, peaceful life is totally fucking possible. It's actually not even complicated. Like, it is, it is totally possible for every single one of us. And I'm so heartened by that.
So heartened by it. Because it's, it's right, it's, it's here. It's not impossible. And I think that's what it is. Is that like this idea of like being free and happy, um, can feel so difficult or out of reach or like an uphill slog. And I'm like, Oh no, baby girl. Like anybody listening to this, like just rest assured it's totally possible.
Kyley: Oh, Eva. Thank you.
Eva: Thank you for letting me process and muse and,
Kyley: My favorite thing in the whole fucking world. Should we do Joy? [01:16:00]
Eva: you like to go first?
Kyley: Yeah, actually. What's bringing me joy is a fucking built in bookshelf motherfuckers.
Eva: Oh my god,
Kyley: see Eva's face right now.
Eva: hey, my jaw literally dropped because I've been to Kylie's house now, I can say, and so yeah, say, say more please.
Kyley: Okay. so my house is from the 1840s and now for context, everybody, let's remember I have 2 small children. I live in my house in the 1840s. I do not have a single closet on the 1st floor. I have. One tiny closet in each person's bedroom. That is it for storage in my entire house. And I'm not a tidy person.
My husband is a clean person, but not like he's not a, he's not a tidy person. He also makes piles. Um, so my house has been just a pile of clutter [01:17:00] for years, years.
Eva: I just want to also say though, as someone who's been there, I do think, I don't know if someone's going to listen to this and just think you're like a hoarder, clutter person, because I,
Kyley: true. That's actually true.
Eva: the way, that you talk about it, when I walked in your house, I was expecting it to be like the way that you talk about it anyway, like a bunch of fucking clutter, but it was totally fine.
I was like, Oh, you just have a house with two kids. Like, that's what this is. You just have a house with two small kids. It's like a totally normal house.
Kyley: I do. Because it's actually, it's actually a thing that I have like, I have real shame about like, not that I'm not mess, but it's like, there's a way that my home has felt uninviting for years, which is also interesting because I feel like I've been on a little journey around like letting people into my heart.
So we could do a whole thing. We could look at the synchronicities there. But
Eva: Wait, hold on. Sorry. I have to interrupt. I'm inviting to who?
Kyley: to like company, because it's like, there's not like, like, there's like, Um,
okay, so like for context, we have like a [01:18:00] front room, we have a middle room, that's not the name rooms in our house, we have a kitchen, and then we have this like long skinny living room, and then the middle room of our house has, it's one of those weird rooms in a house that like has no purpose, those rooms always just are like the place where like things pile, right. And so it's just this funny room where like, No matter what I put in there, it's just been like a holding place for like coloring books and craft kits and our miscellaneous bags. And it just feels like, Yeah. it's not, it's not a hoarder's den by any means, but it just feels like it has felt like there's never anywhere for things to go.
And so even when I have like cleaned everything. It's all still out. It's just like a neat, it was like a neat pile instead of pile.
Eva: Yeah. Yeah. I think you have a house, a normal house with two small kids with just bad Storage options, basically, but I will say your house was not at all uninviting. It was the opposite. It was very, very inviting, but,
Kyley: People have said that to me many times. This is like totally a me [01:19:00] thing that again, we could probably get into. Like, how do I think my mess makes me uninviting? We're not doing that on the podcast, everybody. I have to go to bed, but we see it. We see it. Um, but anyway, we have, um, we have. We, we have this really great handyman.
His name is Birdie, B-E-R-T-I-E. As you might know, my daughter's name is Birdie, so everybody loves Birdie, the handyman, he's adult Birdie. Um, just, sorry, this story is getting very long, but he came over to like, take measurements. He's been our handyman for like years. He's so great and um, and he came over to take measurements and little Birdie was.
So excited. And, and as he was leaving, she was like, bye birdie. And then she started laughing and she goes, it's like the Barbie movie. Hi, Barney
Eva: Oh, that's so cute. That's so cute. Oh, Freddy's the best. Yeah,
Kyley: see the Barbie movie, but let me explain this joke to you. [01:20:00]
Eva: Uh
Kyley: Anyways, he built us these beautiful Milton bookshelf.
Eva: He already built them.
Kyley: He already built it. I will send you a picture. Um, he, um, he's going to come back and install doors. He had to like do this part first. My entire house feels different. My entire house feels different. That middle room that just felt like this, like, like this walkthrough of like varying levels of tidy piles, all of the craft supplies are put away.
And I also really love crafting with my kids. So I think that's also part of it's like, I want that to just be this like joyful, fun, all the craft supplies are put away all the boxes that I bought to try to organize things over the years. Like, Now it works and it's functional and it's like, Oh, like, do you want to do paper airplanes?
That's right here. No big deal. Let's do it. Oh no, let's put them away. Anyway. Now there's like a cute, cozy seating area that I just like sat, but it's already called the reading nook. It's just like the whole house feels better. The whole house feels like just like clean lines. It just, [01:21:00] Oh, I can't even, I mean, you can
Eva: I can just even sense like the spaciousness that you're feeling around this.
Kyley: Yeah. And I had like someone come over for coffee the other day and I watched how much. I would have previously felt some level of like embarrassed. Maybe it's not shame. I actually think it's more embarrassment than shame, but like some level of like. Like, yeah, some level of like, I should feel bad about this.
And it felt really nice to just be like, or I have to talk myself out of feeling bad about it. It just felt nice to be like, I just really like the way my house looks. I'm really happy to have you here. And this feels like this is representative of the way I want my house to feel as opposed to I'm making myself feel okay with the fact that it's more cluttered than I would
Eva: Yeah.
Wow. I'm really seriously stoked for you because I know like the storage thing is like, yeah, it's an annoying thing that you've talked about. So what a great solution you guys have created.
Kyley: I'm like beaming. I'm
Eva: Oh, good. Okay. And I actually, I,
Kyley: upstairs. That's the next [01:22:00] step, which
Eva: wait, is it the one that's where like outside of birdies room?
Kyley: Yeah. Yeah. Which is where, yeah. that will be a real game
Eva: yeah. Cool. Um, I do actually demand a photo before you go to bed.
Kyley: Okay. I even, I have a video of Birdie, like
Eva: Yes. Oh my, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes.
Kyley: So that was one other really funny thing. Both my. kids love Big Birdie, but Little Birdie was especially enamored by watching him work. She literally sat on a chair and just watched him build this cabinet for 45 minutes.
And he's like, great. And like, thinks the kids are hilarious. And like, let's let's he's 45. It's like, did you want like a book or something? She's like. I'll take a blanket, please. She just wrapped herself in a blanket and just watched him build a shelf for like legit 45 minutes.
Eva: I just love that because she was genuinely so invest, like involved, invested,
Kyley: So content. She was so happy. Yeah.
and the whole day was really happy because he also like rolled out construction, like, like, um, like paper on the, like a giant, like the kind of paper people use to like keep [01:23:00] the floor clean. He like rolled it all the way out of my living room. And so my kids spent like hours like coloring on this paper that he gave them.
Well, anyway.
Eva: Big Birdie.
Kyley: Oh yeah, he's great. He's great. If anyone lives in this, you know, lives in outside of Boston and you need a handyman, let me know.
Eva: Dope. Always
Kyley: That my joy was 20 minutes long. Um,
Eva: love a good joy.
Kyley: how
Eva: I mean, sorry, built ins deserve that time.
Kyley: especially like seven years coming?
Eva: Yeah. Yes. Okay. My joy is that when I went to the work or to the school, I went and went with my friend Nancy, who I met. When I did a version of this. in Mont over the summer and then she brought her friend Joanne. So both of these ladies are a little older.
They're probably in their like maybe 60s, possibly 70s. I'm not really sure their age because they both are so fucking cool and act really young and they just Nancy really specifically has this like really [01:24:00] lovely kid like spirit. I just adore her. Anyway, it was just, I don't know, I can really appreciate having friends that are older.
Like I, I, it's kind of been a while. I mean, I have my aunt who I'm really close to, but she's more of like a role model type. I don't know. It's like, these are like friends and they're older. I don't know. It's just really nice. And they're cool. I don't know. I don't, I don't know what it's nice about it, but I just know that I loved it.
And they were so lovely. And we, it's just fun. And I guess I like that I can have younger friends and older friends and also my friends that are my age. And I think it's really easy to seem, um, enchanting or like, I don't know if enchanting is the right word, but like likable to older people, because I'll just like, yeah.
say some slang that they don't know about, you know, and get to like, tell them about it. And like, they're just little things that I can easily do to amuse them, I guess is what I mean. [01:25:00] And I'm like, Oh, I'm so funny, but it's like just normal millennial stuff. Yeah.
Kyley: Oh, that's really funny.
Eva: So that brings me joy. All right, gang.
Thank you everybody for sticking around and listening to this, just listening and being here and sharing space with us.
Kyley: yeah.
Eva: love you. Yeah. Uh, if you like the show, please I mean, rate, review, that stuff really does help. Also on, on Spotify you can leave reviews. I feel like I'm
Kyley: Oh, is that a news thing?
Eva: no, it's actually not new at all, we just don't pay attention.
Like, I'm like, we're like four seasons into the game, we haven't been saying shit yet, but some people have like left some things, I think. But anyway, we would, that's always appreciated, and share it with your friends, um, let us know if there's anything in the conversation that resonates with you. We always appreciate it.
Yeah, it's
Kyley: My favorite is getting, um, people's just responses to our, our show. We love hearing from you. Thank you.[01:26:00]