Love is the power, Brazil
https://www.theworkwithtom.com/brazil2025.html
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Kyley: [00:00:00] Okay, everybody, it's Kylie, who sounds a little like a frog, so I'm sorry ahead of time for this.
Eva: I'm
Kyley: and
Eva: back, bitches!
Kyley: Eva's back. We had a lot of fun with our, you know, substitute guests, and I was right with the world again,
Eva: Yes.
Kyley: is on my Zoom screen.
Eva: Look, this is our podcast, okay? I'm not gonna lie, when Kylie told me, I mean, it was so great, Kylie. As, as she may have mentioned, I had a lot going on in my life and she just came right [00:01:00] in and took care of business and helped me create space in my life. But part of me was also like, but I don't want to not be on the podcast.
I love the podcast. This is our baby. And so I am thrilled y'all so happy to be back with Kylie and with all of you, but also selfishly because this podcast is so helpful for helping me integrate and learn so much through my own personal life. So I'm. Really excited to dig in. I'm feeling a little rusty, I'll say that, but I'm excited to dig in.
Kyley: we'll ease you in,
Eva: Okay. All right, all right.
Kyley: Before we jump into this week's topic, um, Do you have anything exciting you want to invite our listeners into?
Eva: Yes, I want people to come join me in Brazil, where I am now. So, um, for those of you who don't know, you know, I spend half the year here in Brazil, and I just got back after being in Taiwan for the winter. And, uh, this place will soothe [00:02:00] you. This place is going to heal your soul. My nervous system already just feels like it's being reset simply just by being surrounded by this beautiful blue sun and the green mountains and all the little insect friends that come and say hello and the frogs at night and the green, all the green and the warmth.
I mean, that's just like the nature part of it. But all of this is, um, really. Uh, an invitation to come join us at the seven day retreat that we have here. Uh, I think we're going to do it once a year. This is going to be our second time. Um, with me and my partner, where I think it's just a magical experience.
I mean, I think I usually talk about. this retreat as a time for joy and celebration because that's how it really feels at the end. But personally, just having come off a really challenging, difficult part of my life, I am reminded of how important and helpful it is and supportive it is when you feel when you are in survival mode and you are going through something [00:03:00] really fucking hard.
Um, how These types of experiences can be the thing that changes everything, like, and honestly, when I think about it, every time I've joined a retreat like this, it's because I was in some huge transition in my life or something, you know, and a lot of people come because they're dealing with death or illness, their own illness or someone else's illness, you know, separation, there's just anything and people come here with their broken hearts, sort of wide open, you know, and protected and we just leave feeling, feeling and remembering the gift of life again.
And I want to offer that to anybody else who needs it again, after having come home, come off a couple of hard months being like, I've more than ever, I'm so passionate about this experience that we offer to people because I really think it is, um, like people need it. You know, there's a lot of suffering going on in the world right now, people, [00:04:00] and this is a space.
For, for, yeah, like, Love is the Power is the name of the event, and as, you know. We'll talk about it when we get here, but it can sound really cheesy and I thought it was cheesy the first time, you know, I attended an event and I walked away being like, Oh, I get it now. Like, duh, love is the power. Anyone listening to this, I think knows that in their hearts on an instinctual level.
And then we forget. And so this retreat is so that you can come and remember again. Yeah,
Kyley: my gosh. It's going to be amazing. It's going to be so amazing. And I also feel, I mean, I'm watching it for you only just in your to Brazil, like land. Does that does some heavy is very clearly does some heavy lifting?
Eva: it really does. It's the magic of Brazil. It's the, there's a lot of components. I'm just gonna keep going because I'm so excited about it. It's like the community that comes together from all over the world. They're so fascinating. Um, it's Like the indigenous culture out here as [00:05:00] well. And then there's the optional ayahuasca ceremony at the end, which is just like, like shit, like, like blowing the top off of everything at the, of the end of seven already pretty intense days of internal releasing and.
It's the activities that we have and the singing and the dancing and the movement and the crying and the, and the, yeah, all of it. So, um, that's happening in like a month guys. I know it's pretty close, but a lot of people tend to sign up last minute and we've got 20 something, 20, almost 30 folks joining us already.
And, and I just think it's going to be a big celebration of life. So if you have any questions about it, um, message me on Instagram. Yay. Mm hmm. Mm hmm. Mm hmm. Mm hmm.
Kyley: share one is I did a free workshop this last month that was called sacred rage And I'd [00:06:00] had, it's funny, I'd had this idea, actually the day after the election, I like wrote, I forgot that I did this, the day after the election, I wrote this pay, like the sales copy for a free workshop called Sacred Rage, completely forgot about it. And then in the week leading up to the inauguration, I was like, I should do a Sacred Rage workshop and I had already like got all the prep for it. And it was just making me laugh how much it was like synced the political moment without it actually being a conscious. So anyways, I did this workshop and it was so incredible.
I mean, I think listeners know how much I love doing free workshops. Like that's why I'm doing them all the time. This one was like really next level and I got some of the. I mean, I cried afterwards. I got all of these emails from people, like, multiple people talking about this workshop being life changing. and it's basically just, it's about, it's, it's about how we can understand and, like, be in [00:07:00] loving relationship and trusting relationship with our anger and trying to actually understand, like, is the function of your anger, right? It is, it is a divine part of you, but if we don't understand it, it's really hard to integrate it.
It's really hard to be in relationship to it. And, and we need it and we need it now more than ever, you know, um, and, and, and how can we. Love and trust our anger without being burned up and consumed by it,
Eva: Mm hmm.
Kyley: it doesn't help, but being kind of reactionary in control of it also doesn't help.
So, um, if you are someone who actively wants to be part of a resistance in this moment and, you know, intimately wants to understand and love this part of their heart, um, just, it's, it's free. I would just love for people to, to, to have it and enjoy it. Um, and if you want even more. Villanera is
Eva: Mm hmm. Mm hmm.
Kyley: I wasn't planning.
This is, it just feels very in the flow, spirit led. I was not at all planning for a Villanera launch. [00:08:00] Um,
Eva: Wait, tell the folks what billionaire is, for those who don't know.
Kyley: I've taught this course now a couple of times. It's called Enter Your Villanera, and it's really about how we can peel off our protective perfectionism and, um,
Eva: Mm
Kyley: So that, you know, whenever, That fantasy self who just doesn't give a fuck what everybody else thinks and she lives according to her own desires and she has access to power and impact and she speaks powerfully and she, you know, does big, beautiful, joyful things in the world and she relishes her life, right?
She dances with joy because she's just not So fucking caught up in what everybody else thinks of
Eva: hmm. Mm hmm.
Kyley: and, um, and so I've taught this course a couple of times and I wasn't planning on doing another version of it right now. But after I listened to the tug to do this sacred lunch, which like a hundred people signed up for, it was like a total, the
Eva: Mm hmm.
Kyley: [00:09:00] signed up, which is always a good sign that it's what we need. And then I was like, Oh, well, I guess. Villenaire is the obvious thing that comes on the other side. Um, and so I'm just letting, I'm just letting spirit tell me what to do.
Eva: Yeah. Yeah.
Kyley: and so doors are open. We're going to start at the end of February. And it's just one of the most fun things that I run. And I can't wait. The, the women who are so far, it's, it's women, but the folks who are already in it are just so delicious. So I can't wait. I can't wait.
Eva: Yeah, I'm excited. It sounds really aligned right now with the times. I mean, it's always relevant, but I just think the, and maybe, I don't know if we'll even have a chance to talk about this today. Maybe at some point we can talk about like, what's going on in the world right now. We haven't done one of those.
Kyley: probably need another one of those.
Eva: Yeah. Yeah. And, and sharing, you know, our spiritual [00:10:00] How we, how we can show up, you know, as spiritual leaders and being, yeah.
Kyley: Yeah.
Eva: Um, but anyway, all of this energy just sounds like it could be really supportive for people who are feeling, um, the weight of the world right now,
Kyley: Yes, I think. And I think that's why it just has, it's like. You know, yeah, usually I'm usually I choose what I'm watching or promoting and it feels very much like spirit was just like, just do what we tell you for once, you know,
Eva: which is, I think what they're always trying to say. We just don't often hear them.
Kyley: yes. And actually on that note, it was really funny. So as listeners can tell from my voice, I was super, super sick last week. That's actually why we didn't release an episode last week, because Eva was still traveling. I was too sick to do much of anything. And I kept thinking. Uh, I kept thinking [00:11:00] tomorrow I'm going to be back to normal and then I would wake up the next day and still be really sick.
And it was, it felt like the universe was like, yeah, we're going to call you when we need you. Go back to bed.
Eva: Yeah. Yeah.
Kyley: you're, you're not, you're not being called. You're not being called in. Yeah. Like go back to bed. We will let you know when it's
Eva: Mm
Kyley: We will tell you in the meantime, please rest, girl. And somehow that feels connected. And I think also to ramble a little bit more, I think that's also to me part of the essence of Villanera is it's about, about knowing what to care about,
Eva: mm mm.
Kyley: about knowing what to lean in on and what to just fucking let go of,
Eva: Yeah.
Kyley: like what other people think of us, how we can control their opinions, how like good we can, all the earning and the proving and the striving, some of which we're conscious of, some of which we're not even fucking conscious of
Eva: Yeah.
Kyley: baked in, like you're, especially in this moment where I think a lot of us are being called to be part of the [00:12:00] world different and better than, than, than it, than it is like. have to know, you have to have discernment, like, what is the shit that's worth caring about? What is the fight that's worth fighting? What are the things to, like, just not care And, like, really genuinely let yourself not care about, not in a self gaslighting, I can't stop thinking about this, but I'm pretending I don't care about it kind of way, right? Um,
Eva: That sounds like a whole, first of all, if that is resonant with you, like, sign up for this course, because I think that's just really big medicine right now. But as you were talking, I was like, let's, can we just record a whole podcast episode on that please? Because I also feel like that's something that I could like lean into even more.
I, you know, um. Yeah.
Kyley: I will record a conversation with you about literally anything ever, so, yes. Yes.
Eva: Yeah. But, you know, this idea of just like living your own damn life and because, uh, living your own damn life [00:13:00] without getting sucked into what is right and wrong for just, just living in accordance with right, right for you. Not necessarily, I think the external world and that can be really confusing. I think also when the world feels like it's on fire.
Kyley: Yes, yes, exactly. Like knowing, knowing how you genuinely want to be showing up right now, what you're genuinely called to do versus what is you kind of clockwork orange style torturing yourself and getting all like burnt out
Eva: Yeah.
Kyley: um, and overwhelmed. I had a, was talking to a friend the other day and she's been reading, um, I don't know if you know Mel Robbins, but she has this book out now called let them that it's like taking the world by storm.
Eva: Oh, I haven't heard of it, but I'll check it out.
Kyley: is, I think it kind of comes from a talk she did once, but the idea is like, people don't, people don't, people are going to disrespect you, let them. Like, people are going to think poorly of you, let them. Like, people are going to walk out of your life, like, [00:14:00] let them. Like, don't, don't,
Eva: Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. I feel very passionate about that. And also I'm constantly learning that.
Kyley: Yes, exactly. And my friend is reading this book and she's really loving it and getting a lot out of it. And she was saying how, some part of her, like, brain snapped on and was like, wait, I could, I could just let my dad be mad, right? Like if he wants me to do something and I don't want to do it, like, she was, she was laughing.
She's like, it literally never occurred to me that one of the options was just to let him be mad.
Eva: Mm hmm.
Kyley: that's how insidious this stuff is, right? Is that there's ways in which we walk around contorting ourselves. the perception of what other people want or need, and we don't even realize it's contortion because
Eva: Mm hmm.
Kyley: baked in and it's so closely tied to what we think keeps us safe and, um, Like, I'm constantly finding new layers from like, oh, self abandonment, you snuck in there. [00:15:00] Um, so that's another reason why I love this course. And I've also had people like come and take it multiple times because I think it is one of those things that we're just like constantly
Eva: Mm hmm. Yes.
Kyley: you know, what if I
Eva: Woohoo! Exciting. Yeah. And let's, yeah. Join the course. It sounds amazing. And also, let's have like another podcast episode about this. It's like another, a conversation we've had before in some ways, but, uh, could have a million different times and, you know, slightly different variations.
Kyley: Yes. Yes. A thousand percent. Please do. Uh, I would love to do that. Um, should we to pivot now to kind of a topic, I kind of want to just toss the softball to you and let you kind of a little bit about what's been on your mind and then we'll just, just start peppering you with questions.
Eva: Okay. [00:16:00] All right. Well, that's part of the thing is that I'm not really sure what's on my, what's on my mind, which is very new for me. I'm always. pretty self aware, very reflective, um, have the space to, you know, be aware of what's going on in my internal world. Um, and that's what I'm hoping this conversation will, will help me with this week is maybe some integration of what I've experienced these past couple of months.
Without getting too lost in the weeds, you know, I went back to Taiwan where I go every year and spend time with my family and It was probably one of the most stressful situations of my adult life because my dad, you know, was almost, he's been sick for a year and we found out that he was almost gonna die on it very unexpectedly.
We thought, yeah, it was really stressful. It was like so sad because he's, he'd been in the hospital for, Two [00:17:00] and a half months and was about to go home. And we were, what should have been a celebratory experience ended up being devastating because then he got COVID and then got pneumonia and they were like, well, actually now you might need to prepare for his death.
And I was dealing with this with just me. It was really just me and my mom. Which is complicated because my mother is also sick, and so it just, all this trauma resurfaced, unprocessed trauma, or, or maybe process, I don't even say I'd call it unprocessed, I think you can process your trauma, but different situations can just like really show you what's still there, you know?
Kyley: and I think it's also an example of something that like, that was its own present day trauma that also touched on things you've lived through in the past,
Eva: Yes.
Kyley: like, sometimes we're triggered and the present is actually safe, but we're triggered.
Eva: Mm hmm.
Kyley: like, you were being told that there was a good chance your dad might die.
Like that's a traumatic thing. Everything you were going through was traumatic. And then [00:18:00] also, you know, all of our past traumas are like, wait, what? We're being traumatized. We know this
Eva: Yes, yes, yes, yeah. Yeah, and you know, now that I've had some space from it, I'm like, what about that was even so difficult? I'm not, I think. I think also, I just saw, like, you know, I was coming off of living, spending the past, last year was so much about celebrating joy in my life, you know, I was coming off of this whirlwind adventure of like falling madly in love and, and like living truly a magical life in the jungle.
And I guess I just saw when I was in Taiwan, like how good my life really is. I had so much appreciation for how good life can be, juxtaposed against like, what felt like a, like a car crash of like, also remind, a reminder that there's like so much struggle, [00:19:00] um, in, in, in everyday life, you know, there's so much struggle in life, you know, cause then I, and then I like, I do this all the time and we'll get into this more.
And then I'm thinking about Palestine and wars and famines and, and like how. There is really traumatic suffering in life. But even just like I was reminded of like, You know, sometimes, and I've been there before, sometimes it's so hard just to put on fucking pants because you are so overwhelmed and you have so many things to take care of and you don't get to take care of yourself and you don't have a minute to breathe and I think that's what was really, really hard for me is like, you know, and as someone who considers herself like a sensitive person in the world and who tries not to knock that and wants to honor that but also needs to like rise to the occasion and like and sometimes you just gotta, I think, put on your big girl pants and do it.
And be strong, not in like a, I'm going to push myself sort of way, but just to really challenge yourself and be like, what I saw this time was like, wow, I can handle [00:20:00] like all, a lot. And to step into my strength, I think, in my adulthood in that way. And, but it was also just like so much sensory overload.
Like, I just, no alone time. I really struggle when I have like zero alone time. And. Um,
Kyley: I also add, because I, I think it's so common for you, you're not, you might not count it, but like, you're also navigating a medical system in a language that's not your native language
Eva: yes.
Kyley: are literal life and death and,
Eva: Yeah. Yeah. Like they're talking about, you know, like what should we intubate my dad or put him, you know, what happens if we put on life support, like big life decisions and in Chinese, in Mandarin, where I'm like, I don't actually understand like what you're asking me. And I'm like crying and I don't understand the nurses and, and, and the medical system there is so different.
It's like, it's so different. [00:21:00] It's like, because it's universal healthcare, which has its pros and cons, it's like. They like, don't have time. They're like, you know, it's, it's, it's like, it's interesting to deal with a healthcare system where you are constantly being rushed. It's like you, you, you, it's like, you gotta figure this out now, now, now, now, now we do not have time to fuck around.
Kyley: Yeah, yeah. So, like, the, just the layers of, you know, being told your father might die, managing your mom and her physical and mental health, language, like, complexity, just the pressure, right? The pressure of, like, these decisions that I am the one having to make or at least be part of making, like, they have real consequences, right?
These stakes are not neutral. And then on top of that, there's the pressure of the time and And then on top of that, not having [00:22:00] space and quiet and solitude to check in with like, well, what does my heart think is the best decision? Or what does my nervous system need right now? Just like the, my sense every time we connected was just this like, kind of onslaught whirlwind
Eva: Mm hmm.
Kyley: you were, I think, tremendously gracious at navigating, but also it's like very clearly just an intense,
Eva: Yeah.
Kyley: I kicked you off the show for
Eva: exactly. I, I honestly just didn't have the capacity, you know, in the five years that we've been doing this, it's the first time where it was like, I had to put my whole entire life was on pause. Um, yeah, that was interesting. It's like, I was in a vortex, like I had no idea what was going on in the outside world.
I had no contact with most of my friends. I just didn't have like the time. Um, and on top of that, it was also, I wasn't. In a weird way, I was not connected to God and my spiritual practices at all and also more [00:23:00] connected to God, maybe in a different way, because I felt I was really, um, and I would love to talk about this more on the podcast, again, a different episode, but just exploring mortality and death and, and Which we've talked about before on the show, but you know, it was really front and center this to the most front and center it's ever been in my life and In those ways, I felt really connected to God and I felt like also life was supporting me and our family in every moment and and in hindsight I can say that that's true because Things that actually ended up working out.
I'll just say this they ended up working out
but
Uh, yeah, I think it's just noticing how good life is normally because I do have the space to be connected to myself and to, and to have,
I don't know, maybe this is a different topic, but it's like, how do we hear God or [00:24:00] how do we experience God when we have zero space in our life?
Kyley: well, and I think that's interesting. Because I think you and I, you and I, I think experience our spiritual are like what we call our spirituality a lot through just like feeling really present. Like I feel most connected to God when I feel really present and that's probably one of the like states of being that I prize the most, right?
And it's not necessarily being peaceful, like sometimes what I'm really present with is like a lot of grief or a lot of anger or, right? But, but when I'm really can surrender to God. whatever that state of being is, I feel that's when I feel most connected to myself and to, you know, universal love and, you know,
Eva: Yes.
Kyley: And there's periods in our life where And this was clearly one of them where like presence is not like in some ways you were super present [00:25:00] because it was like
Eva: Yes.
Kyley: out stat well you've got the doctor for five minutes
Eva: Yes.
Kyley: but also you didn't it's my perception and I know when I've had my own versions of these like you don't have you don't have the capacity to like be intimately connected with your heart or even know what you're feeling right it's just
Eva: Yes.
Kyley: it's just not an option um
Eva: And I, yeah, and I think that's okay. It's like that can happen. That's what trauma is, you know, it's like in the moment. It's like, yeah, you can't really process and then you kind of to process it later. Um, but I will say, yeah, this is, that's A good point like I have never I have not been that disconnected a long time meaning like I was completely numbing out like all the fucking time completely numbing out it was so weird in some ways I was so intimate with life I had this mantra of like, I am, I'm willing to just like let things be completely out of control, which [00:26:00] a lot of times in the past in LA in like the almost Four months that I was there, things were just out of fucking control.
There was like drama going on with my dad and his, like, I don't know, mistress situation, which I won't, which was like, my parents are going through a separation and, and then. Yeah, and also figuring out how to manage, you know, critical health stuff and their separation and there's like a mistress involved and then also, oh, yeah, and then we had to like move my dad back into I move as he was in the ICU.
I helped move all of this stuff into another apartment with my grandmother. It was just like, okay, things are just completely out of control life, like I am just going with the going with you. And that felt like an intimacy with life. But then there are other moments where I was just constantly like on my phone, on my phone, like could not, did not have the capacity to [00:27:00] be with
what was going on in my body. And then it was just, yeah, that's a good question.
Kyley: Do you feel like you had like compassion or allowance for that? Do you feel like you had judgment for that? Do you feel like wasn't even conscious to begin with? You just were, you know, using the available tools.
Eva: Uh, I think I, um, was comfortable with it, you know, I actually do think sometimes when we are in survival mode, like it's okay to do what we need to survive. Like that's what that's what survival is. So on one hand, that was true. But on the other hand, um, I, what I noticed is. I heard this on another podcast, actually, just this morning.
You know, you know how you and I talk about how the second arrow is like they're suffering and then they're suffering about the suffering, right? It's like you're wounded and then the second arrow [00:28:00] is when you hit yourself in the same place to judge yourself. Yes.
Kyley: yeah.
Eva: And it could be judgment, but sometimes it could just be, it could be like worrying about the suffering or it could be like being resisting the suffering or it's,
Kyley: Mm-hmm
Eva: and I did notice that.
I think my suffering about my suffering was, was actually worse. Does that make sense? Like being with like the reality of, of financial distress because of this medical situation or my, or my, my mom's drinking or like my dad, like, you know, just had a flashback of him in the ICU and like how sad that was and how heartbroken I was over that.
Like that sucks. But I, but it was almost the suffering about my suffering that made it. Worse. And.
Kyley: Can I ask you a question about that? That feels connected to kind of, [00:29:00] when we were chatting before recording and you were sort of mentioning what you might wanna talk about that feels connected to this, this like. being hard on yourself about the suffering. And I remember very distinctly when you left me one voice note to when all this was happening and you asked the question, I don't know why this is so hard. And I just wrote, sent you like a 20 minute voice note back. It was like, cause it's hard. Cause it's fucking hard. What are you talking about? You I. I think that's really common. I think a lot of us do that, right? Like things are hard and then we judge ourselves. Or for how hard they are or how we hard, how we are experiencing them is hard. And kind of wanna give you some space to like voice what your experience was. 'cause I think this is, but there can be different flavors for how this shows up, right? But what you're calling the, like suffering your suffering, like what [00:30:00] flavor did it take for you?
Eva: Yeah. Basically what I experienced once again is how much of an asshole I am to myself. It really just comes down to that is this really harsh self attack inner critic that is saying like, you really, I think the ongoing story this time, the theme was like, you shouldn't be suffering as much as you are suffering.
And that The flavor of that can be like a spiritual thing of like, Oh, you know, whatever, you know, I could, uh, such a theme for me is taking my spiritual lessons or spiritual realizations and then turning them against myself. Um. Which is ironic and, and anyway, and we all do it, but you know, it's like, anyway, um, and some of the, some of that sure was this idea of like, oh, I can be more spiritually evolved, but a lot of it was like, I was just being a little bitch.
Like, that's what I was thinking about myself of like, why is this so hard? Like, you know, [00:31:00] this isn't. Because what I would do is I would, I'd be miserable, right? Like I would be like running around from the hospital or something and in hospitals all day and then Whatever some situation and then I would complain about it in my head and I'd be like I fucking hate this This sucks and I'm sad and you know, I don't want to be here.
Like I want to be I want to be you know Sitting in my hammock in Brazil or I want to be on the couch watching like a Netflix show or and I would just come You know in my head Be unhappy with the situation, or really tired or something. And then the second voice that comes in, the suffering about the suffering, is the one that says, What are you complaining about?
Like, get your shit together. Like, this isn't, uh, this is life. Everyone has to deal with it. And, like, you should be tougher than this. And you should be stronger than this. And, you're weak. There really was, like, that's a, [00:32:00] I've seen, I've actually always known, Mm. But it was loud. And I think it's coming up now because it's ready to be released.
I think anytime anything comes up thematically, it's because it's like, okay, like it's time for this to like, move along, which is great. But the story theme was like, it's not okay to be weak.
Kyley: and weak in this instance is. Like being undone by the situation like because I'm not hearing you say like because I could hear another person being like Oh, you should be grateful because X Y Z or or someone else like you should be getting more done Or right you should be accomplishing more. It sounds like
Eva: But all of those are all things that prove weakness to me.
Kyley: Wait, can you say more? This is also what I love like this is what's so fascinating because I I do versions of this But I, I don't, maybe we're going to find out, but I don't think this weakness [00:33:00] thing is one of my particular hangups. So I'm also fascinated because I'm like, I have my own patterns of this,
Eva: Yes.
Kyley: and also they're not, they're not the same.
Eva: Mm hmm. Yes. Yeah.
Kyley: because I can see how much like, what do you, what is weak, what does weakness even mean? Right. I'm like dumbfounded and intrigued.
Eva: hmm. Oh, I'm excited. I like it when we come up again, you know, because sometimes, yeah, we unite, there's similarities and we experience them in different ways. But to be honest, it's like, I don't even know if I can give, this is just all a concept. It's not like real. So I don't know if I can give concrete things, but something that comes up, like a criticism that comes up a lot for me.
Actually, that I noticed when I'm excavating and doing like Byron Katie's The Work and I'm on retreats is I have a story that I'm pathetic. So it's like pathetic and weak. Like basically, that's another way that I experience weak. And so what does that mean? It's like, I don't know, I [00:34:00] shouldn't be affected maybe or that, um, I should be able to hold this better.
I should be able to handle this better. Um, that my I trivialize my own suffering, that my suffering isn't actually that bad. I'm a, I'm a, I always said I'm a privileged, you know, I'm a privileged first world living person, country person and, and, and my life is. But all of this abundance around me and I feel really guilty about suffering and complaining when there's real suffering happening out there.
It's just a way to trivialize everything that I'm feeling and I'm like, well, why do I do that to myself? And it's like, well, it's because I think I'm supposed to be strong. And what does that look like? I don't know. Not suffering, I suppose. Not feeling this way.
Kyley: like you who's not weak, right? If they, this, you would their fixation on not being weak got to be fully in charge. And so everything happened according to this part of you. Like what, what would [00:35:00] you do in the face of few months?
Eva: Oh, you know, it's actually showing up, which is interesting. This is one flavor. There's, I think, probably different facets of it. But it's. Being really mad at my body, actually, because, you know, I, I think I, some of it's physical, like, um, demanding my body to be able to do more. And so, you know, I, you know, I have, I want to like change the story that I have chronic fatigue, but for all, for our current purposes, you know, that is something that I struggle with.
And I feel like I should be able to push my body harder under extreme circumstances because people need me. And I don't have, and I, and I'm just getting tired all the time and I'm sensitive, you know, we've talked, we've had an, for anybody who struggles with body stuff, we had a really good episode called like the body episode before it's, we recorded a long time ago, but this idea of like, it's weak to be [00:36:00] sensitive, you know, in our colonialized Western world, it's like, it's good to be athletic and strong and, and, and if you're the spiritual person who's too sensitive to, you know, sounds and, um, Yeah.
and sensations around you, you're weak and I felt like I couldn't even, that's just one, that's one flavor of it, but I felt like, you know, I'm not that old. I should be able to have stamina and, and, and to deal with discomfort in my body, um, better. And I, and then I compare myself to other people and that's really not helpful.
I, and one thing that's really not helpful. Like, my partner, Tom, who's, you know, much older than I am, I often talk about how he's a model for me and of some things that I think are really amazing. But it's two sides. There's two sides of the coin, because what happens is like, he also, I think, [00:37:00] is so embodied in the fact that he's not a body, he's not a body, that he can transcend, I think, physical discomfort.
And then I feel like I compare myself and I'm like, well, I can't transcend physical discomfort. Um, And so I'm just a little bitch. So that's like one version of it that, you know, we could explore. And then there's also like, what would another stronger that I wouldn't complain, you know, that I would, that I would, um,
and it's weird because at the end I actually got to a place where I was so grateful to be there for the time that I was there, but the truth is like. Part of me didn't want to be there. Yeah, and then part of me can say that until like, of course No one wants to fucking deal with hard shit but but but that's the part that I judge is like I [00:38:00] complain and I don't want to be there and That also just feels like a really immature selfish mmm way to approach life Suddenly cut out Kylie.
Kyley: My perception of you is was Eva was going through a really hard chapter in her life and look how much she's showing up for the assignment. So I'm intrigued by like just how intense this story is. Um, because I feel like I just still don't understand what you were supposed to do differently, Like, and I understand, obviously, this is not conscious, right? This is not like a logical part of you. So I understand that. But there's a part of me that's like, huh, what on earth would [00:39:00] you have would you could you have done Which I've been. I've been thinking a lot about the inner critic lately, and I just keep marveling at how much the inner critic's job is to be unhappy with everything we do,
Eva: Yes.
Kyley: think the inner critic, because of the way it presents itself, we think that it knows something, and that, like, there's some place it's trying to get us to, but the whole point of the inner critic is, like, no matter what you do, it's wrong,
Eva: You're never gonna get there. It is a bottomless fucking pit. Yeah.
Kyley: yes, like, if you go left, you should have gone right, if you go right, you should have gone left, if you stay put, you should have made a choice, right? Um, so of course, it's not logical, like, that's the way it's wired. Um. And, and I'm also just so struck by, like, essentially this voice, this part of you you to be unaffected by the [00:40:00] experience.
Eva: Yes, it's demanding. It's demanding absolute perfection, which is to show up like a deity in the situation and to be in and basically I'm not I'm mad at myself for not being enlightened. That's, that's what this inner critic is, is like, it won't even it won't be happy until that until I'm enlightened and it still won't even be happy then.
Do you know what I mean?
Kyley: yes, and because this critic, this inner critic has like a super immature notion of what it is to be enlightened,
Eva: totally, yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.
Kyley: about you is if you had been like, this is fine, you know, like this is totally fine. I'm not affected by this.
I have no complaints. I think all of this is like nothing, nothing here, nothing to see here. Like would have, as your dear friend made me feel like, Okay, someone's got to get in there and help Eva more than she, [00:41:00] like, she, the level of disassociation that's happening is, is worrying, right? Um, and that also would have been okay, but, like, basically this part of you is demanding that you be unaffected, and the only thing that would have made me really fucking worry for you is if you'd been unaffected.
Eva: Right. Because that's not real. And that's not human. But then even as I say this, it's so interesting that these stories are so loud for me right now because in other situations and other people, I can see how it's all an illusion. It's farce. But right now I feel myself wanting to argue with you being like, well, But actually, you know, yeah, totally.
It's like, it's like, but I want to be but it's like, well, but actually, no, I think I do know people who would go through this better and would be less unaffected and unaffected meaning, like, not resisting the situation and like being just being with it all. And I think there was a lot of resistance on my end.
And also, you know, Another example of how I [00:42:00] think I was being like a little bitch is like, or how I criticized myself as when I didn't show up as kind and patient with my family, which was a lot and how, or, or, or loving or, um, compassionate,
Kyley: Um, interesting. Is your dislike of the situation resistance? You didn't want to be there, that in and of itself is not actually resistance. were experiencing resentment, frustration, annoyance. You were experiencing that you didn't want to be there, but that's not actually resisting the situation. Mm hmm.
Eva: I actually think,
and I want to say this very carefully, I'll say it and then I'll like edit and course correct as I need to, but I actually think there is a version of me, not one that's a perfectionist, [00:43:00] but a version of me That is so present with all of life that I am humbled to be in the presence of that difficult experience where I would kiss the floor, the feet of God to be like, I am so thrilled to be here because I am alive and I get to be with my family and I get to like, you know, like, like that's the, there's a love that's like, and I think there is, that's a possibility, but I'm also.
idealizing it, do you know what I mean? To the point, and if I'm not doing that, then I do think that that kind of is resistance. Right. So,
Kyley: that that version of you who like, you know, kisses the feet of God to be so lucky to have this experience also relishes how much you don't fucking want to be there. Like that, [00:44:00] that like your pain and discomfort and like the, the richness, the reason you would bow down and thank God for, for this experience, these like really intense things for the richness of them, right? And part of the richness is like, this is everything all at the same time, right? Like, this is, you know, the worst and the best all at the exact same time. And that's what, you know, sweet and salty. That's what makes it so rich. And so when I feel into that version of you, I feel like she's laughing. Like, of course, we're so grateful for this experience.
And part of this experience is, Jesus fucking Christ, I don't want this experience. Like, that's one of the layers of the flavor of the experience itself.
Eva: so I think this is, if I'm understanding you correctly, which I'm not sure that I am, but let [00:45:00] me just give it a go. It's like, it's like, you know, when I talk to my clients about resistance, it's like, um, be with the outermost layer of resistance. And so the outermost layer for me in that moment is, okay, I don't want to be here.
And then it's being with. I don't want to be here. Is that what you mean? Yeah, but I wasn't, that's what I mean. That's, that's the part where I felt like I was resisting. It was like, I couldn't let that in. I couldn't let in like, oh yeah, the, the, the compassion or even the acceptance of like, I, and also I don't want to be here.
It was like, it's a lot, part of me, this is also confusing because at the end I actually did get there, you know, it's like, and then I, And, and I actually was kissing the feet of God for my, for being able to be there because of the way that all things worked out. And I think the reason things worked out the way that they did, if I'm being completely honest, is because I let go and, and let go of control and was like, you know, I'm willing to let things be out of control, but, [00:46:00] but I, yeah, but the perfect, the critic in me, the perfection in me is demanding even more going back to the, like, I would have been happy the whole time.
Kyley: Well, and, right, because, again, if we return to this you who's like laughing and kissing the feet of God, this like, you know, some people might call it the higher self, right? I think She also understands that part of the deliciousness is the unfolding of the journey, right? You're our perfectionist seeks to arrive right there like fixated on outcomes evidence arrival a destination but your God self I Think I find over and over again She relishes the unfurling, She relishes are going to go on this rollercoaster ride and it's going to feel grueling and terrifying. And we might be afraid that we're going to fall off the [00:47:00] rollercoaster. And also we get to experiencing the blossoming into crying at the feet and kissing the feet of God.
Eva: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.
Kyley: Is that we start out like, oh, this is the worst, and we get to a place of, which doesn't mean we have to get to this place, but, but like, the rapture is, it's like, if you're reading a good book, you don't want a story that's written in Right. three paragraphs. Like, you want 300 pages of, like, will they or won't they or, like, whatever the plot is, right? Um, like, no one's really in love with the plot where they bone on the first page, you know? Like, that's not, you're not reading that one for plot,
Eva: Right. Right.
Kyley: Mm
Eva: Well, I hear what you're saying. And I [00:48:00] think right now it's just a matter of like, who am I and who and what in me am I identifying with? Because ultimately, yes, I agree with everything that you're saying. And I. And that is also how I experienced all of this. But for some reason, I find myself identifying right now in this moment with the critic, wanting to defend my position, to be like, no, but it could have been better.
You know, like, I think it's because you're asking me, like, what, what is it that I was expecting? You know, like, how could it have been different? And I, and I want to play devil's advocate and be like, which is odd. because it's not serving me. And also, like I said, I do agree with everything that you were just saying, because that was my experience, like relishing in the delicious nuance and juxtaposition, juxtaposition of everything.
But, but there, but I think I'm asking myself, why do I love this story so much? Why am I defending my critic? It's [00:49:00] like, what am I thinking it's gonna do? And what do I hope to get out of it? And it's like, something about, I don't know if it's something about, I think this is like an ongoing lesson for me, something about being around my family will forever.
And I, yeah, this is just one of the many lessons that I was learning and I'm still learning. And I think we'll spend the next six months here in Brazil, maybe integrating, who knows? Maybe it'll happen in a week, anything is possible, but there's something about being with my family that just makes me feel like an asshole, 24, 24 fucking seven.
There are so many lessons from my time in Taiwan, and one of them, and they're not new, I think it's the relearning of deep childhood things, but like, one of them is like, what is it about being with my family where I will just feel like I'm never, ever doing enough? Ever. [00:50:00] And, okay. And then, okay, let me just share with you the dialogue that's going through my head.
And I'm like, you know, this is really similar to, like, Parenthood. And I think what a lot of motherhoods feel like, no matter what, you will never fucking do enough for your child. And then I think, but you know what, like, if a mother feels that way, that's on her. And like, she's gotta fucking fix that shit.
And that's how I feel about myself right now. But from an inner critic kind of place of like, I don't have compassion for the fact that I feel that way. And it's like, no, well then get your fucking shit together. Like, you need to, you need to know, Eva. That, you know, at 41 years old, like, I can't believe you're still, you know, feeling this way.
Blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. Um, yeah. I don't know. Just hearing myself talk right now, it's really illuminating because I'm like, wow, I am being really critical, [00:51:00] almost in a child, child like way. You know, there's, there's a victim here that really wants to fight for my position of being right.
Kyley: Well, and what's interesting with the being right, the thing that she thinks she's right about is that you're a piece of shit. Right? She
Eva: Yeah. Yeah.
Kyley: for
Eva: Uh huh. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.
Kyley: am shitty. And it's interesting. I've had a really interesting conversation with my therapist yesterday, where I, I thought I was bringing up a minor thing.
And as soon as we touched into it, I was like, Oh, inner critic has like built a, like a castle here, or like it was in,
Eva: I don't
Kyley: And, and, but I could feel very quickly the like density of, of the, of, of the inner critic. And, and I think that's, what's so fascinating is like, it's so pervasive. That sometimes we don't even realize how much, like, you know, that's the, that [00:52:00] voice is presenting itself. It's like the voice of truth, and it's actually just this, like, scared little kid who thinks.
Eva: know.
Kyley: It's safer. I mean, I actually wrote this in an email today that went out to my newsletter, that the, I was talking about perfectionism, which is just code word for the inner critic. And the line that I used was, um, perfectionism was born the moment we learned that it was safer to hate ourselves than to love ourselves.
Eva: Yeah. Oof. Ooh, baby. Can you say that? Can you say that one more time?
Kyley: Perfectionism is born. moment we learned that it was safer hate ourselves than to love ourselves.
Eva: Mm.
That's exactly I feel like what's going on here. You know, some version of that. It's like, it's so funny. I [00:53:00] will fight to the death almost, um, for to defend like the stories of my inner critic because I guess something about that feels safer.
Kyley: Yeah Cuz
Eva: Yeah.
Kyley: you know, if you let yourself off the hook if you let it be really okay that you were pissy and salty and didn't want to be there some of the time and were kind of a raging bitch to your family some of the time and Like the ball on things that you thought were important some of the time like then the inner critic is like really scared of the outcome.
Eva: Yeah. And I think the question is like, what am I scared of? Like, what am I afraid is going to happen? Like, what do I think is going to happen if I love myself rather than criticize myself and, [00:54:00] uh, this is always so familiar. It's like, okay, if I love myself,
it's something, I don't know. It's, it feels, I don't know if we're going to get completely to it today, but it feels like if I love myself, I'll have to accept. That what I'm doing is enough for that. And what I've done is enough. And that feels really scary because then I'll have to let go of control in some way.
It's like,
Kyley: Yeah.
Eva: it feels really scary because it's the letting in of like, oh, here it is. It's like the letting in of the emotions of um, And things are like, like, okay, so for example, my dad is still in critical condition, you know, he's still like he's back at home, which is great. He's got like an oxygen mask on and [00:55:00] his recovery is probably gonna be a while.
And, um, I don't know where I'm going with this. It's like letting in the fear of like, it's not a completely happy ending. Like, in some ways it actually is, and I'm not letting that in, but it's letting in the fear of like, oh, how vulnerable I think it feels to accept the painful parts of what still is, which is like, it isn't, there is still a lot that's really scary and, and not perfect.
And I don't know that my parents are going to be okay. And I've made the decision to, you know, come back to Brazil and, um,
like, Maybe having to deal with the guilt that I thought wasn't there, but maybe will [00:56:00] always be there I don't know the guilt of like I'm not gonna sacrifice my life for them.
Kyley: I don't know that you're gonna love this, but I think that's one of your main, uh, character arcs.
Eva: Oh for Sure. Are you kidding me? Yes.
Kyley: I don't, don't think that, like, that particular guilt, right, that you, Asian daughter, are not going to sacrifice yourself and that you're going to choose your joy and you're, like, You know, over the caretaking role of your family. I, I don't think that's one that you pass through once and like, jack
Eva: No No, no. No, I think I think there's some sort of karmic. There's some sort of karmic thing here that I'm set to learn in this lifetime and if not in this lifetime then the next.
Kyley: Yeah, it's, I think another way to think about it too is like, one of your great [00:57:00] teachers in this lifetime and she's just going to keep showing up again and again, not because you didn't learn the lesson the last time, but because it's an infinite, it's an infinite well, right? And so every time there'll be a new and deeper and richer that she has to offer you.
Eva: And I just need to be like, because I actually, the, the, the funny thing is, is I actually, you know, I wouldn't say I actually thought, I don't actually, I didn't. I don't thought, I think, I actually do think that I learned that lesson deeper this time when I was in Taiwan, like this idea of like being free and, um, you know, what's good for me is, is good for other people and, you know, stepping out of codependency and, um, what I do is enough and, and That I can't parent my parents forever, you know, and be the solution to all that stuff and I, and I learned that in like [00:58:00] such a big way and yet here it is again, again, again, again, and
one thing that I think is very helpful is I actually feel very, it's a reminder to myself to be humbled by that instead of feeling like, um, annoyed that the story is like here again. Um, it's like,
Kyley: thinks like you should have done this one already, or didn't we do this
Eva: Yeah, didn't we just do this and haven't we been doing this my entire lifetime? Um, yeah, and a week later after leaving, it's here again. And it's, I'm, my talk to myself right now is like, oh, it's so
Ego tells me that it's not supposed to happen again. And humility welcomes it and says, okay, like, we'll do this. I will do this a fucking lifetime with you, baby [00:59:00] girl, if that's what it takes. Mm hmm. Mm
Kyley: you know, remind me of this when I need to hear it again too, but I was talking to a friend of mine who's very successful. And she was talking about like scarcity and she was like, it feels exactly the same as it did when I had two pennies to rub together. Like, and she was kind of saying the same thing, like, what's wrong with me that I'm like still here, right?
Both materially, this doesn't line up with my emotional state and how have I learned this lesson? And so we were talking about this whole thing and, and, and I was saying how much I feel like it's maybe we've chosen, maybe we've chosen that we actually want to be a master, right? It's, it's not, it's not that. And I don't mean this from ego, but it's not that we're fucking up and we're not learning the lesson, right? It's like maybe there's some topic that we picked that was like, you know what? I would love to [01:00:00] become masterful at learning like self love and dancing with the inner critic.
Eva: hmm. Mm hmm.
Kyley: she's just gonna keep coming back and back and back because that's a flavor of richness that we, that we asked for.
Eva: Yeah.
Kyley: and whenever I can touch that, feel like there's such generosity in it.
Eva: Yes. Because then I can, like, play a little bit more, you know, like, I definitely, that's my experience right now anyway, is like, when I take it so personally that it's not supposed to be here and there's something wrong with me and la la la, it's like, I will never get out of the karmic loop. I will never.
But I actually think there's something so generous about, Being like, okay, I'm willing, I'm willing and I'm ready to, like, to do this dance with you an infinite amount of times. If that's what it takes.
Kyley: And I think it's okay if sometimes you really resent the dance.
Eva: Mmm. Yes. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.
Kyley: Like, I [01:01:00] think it's really okay to be like, I'm fucking tired.
Eva: Yes.
Kyley: this one out?
Eva: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Fucking It's okay to resent it, but I actually think I mean, it's all okay, you know, you can avoid it, to resist it, to resent it, blah blah, but. And to let myself have the experience of whatever, however it shows up, but it's, I guess I do get the sense of like
resistance. It's all allowed
and resistance may, you know, lead to acceptance and you know how these things can lead into one another. But I actually feel like there are ways in which I resist the dance sometimes that block me from the gifts of it. Yeah, I do think there was like the story of like the victimhood, the victim [01:02:00] me that's like, Oh, not this story again.
I don't want to deal with it. I do actually think that that can, um, like I can love that. But I actually don't think that's the path to freedom. I can love it and be like, I love you and I see you and like you're allowed to be here. But not letting it be there. I don't I think it's going to block me from actually learning whatever it is I meant to learn.
Kyley: think maybe the thing that you're meant to learn is to stop being such an asshole to yourself about resistance. Right? There's a, there's a thread that I'm feeling here, which is like, everything is okay except for resistance.
Eva: Hmm.
Yeah.
Kyley: Because you know, you understand from your lived experience that resistance is the point that causes suffering, right? So when you're resistant and you're in suffering and you're like, Jesus fucking Christ, like, we know better.
Eva: Mm hmm. Hmm.
Kyley: Like, this is causing the [01:03:00] suffering, right?
And so there's, so then that's the second error, because then there's the judgment of resistance or resistance of the resistance or whatever. And maybe has a really important job.
Eva: Can you say more about that?
Kyley: Well, I can share a place where this has been showing up in my own life. I have had an interesting handful of months in business. You know, obviously listeners, long time listeners know that last year was I had a lot of heartbreak, and I wasn't really in growth mode for a while. I was mostly trying to tend to my heart. And I thought I would come back in the fall, and I took the summer mostly off
Eva: Mm hmm.
Kyley: and I thought I would come back in the fall, and it would be like my, you know, 90s movies montage where the,
Eva: Mm hmm.
Kyley: girl takes off her glasses, and everyone realizes she's hot, and
Eva: Yeah, she shakes off her hair. Yep. Mm hmm. She's all that. [01:04:00] Mm hmm. Mm hmm.
Kyley: but it's been really much slower than I wanted a lot of start stop a lot of things like coming in then kind of floating away instead of fully landing and a lot of inconsistent energy on my own behalf, like, like getting excited to show up and share something. then just not being able to sustain the energy of, like, following, following all the way through to completion, right, doing kind of like 20 percent of sharing that something exists or someone could hire me for this thing and then just, like, dropping off the face of the earth, right? So I've had a lot of judgment about that because I'm like, this is all, like, this is all you, baby girl.
Like, you are creating this, this, this suffering. And then finally, I mean, like, literally just this past couple of weeks. Like really tapped into my heart and I just felt how much I could kind of cry thinking about I felt how much my heart was like that was [01:05:00] hard we got really oh I could cry like got really hurt we trusted you know we're like you know. baby lamb kind of defenseless trust and we got hurt and you want us to just go back out there? Are you kidding me? You know, like my heart just feeling like and it wasn't this like it's not like this like armored up It's right. It's not like this like the world. We're cynical It's like like we we picked to stay baby lamb open right like in the face of everything that hurt We picked again and again to stay like a little you know Little defenseless little lamb and you want us to go back out there?
Are you fucking nuts? Right? And in that moment, I like understood so clearly like, oh, of [01:06:00] course, of course I'm like opening the gate enough for like onesie twosie people to come in and then I'm shutting the gate again. Of course I don't feel safe like waltzing out onto the fucking promenade and then like staying out there with my, you know, vulnerable little heart.
Of course. And so yes, I have so much resi I mean, I, I, I, it started to soften, unsurprisingly, since things have been like, of course, till now, I have had so much resistance in, like, showing up consistently, or whatever the things are, there's been so much resistance. But also, of course I did, you know, like, and now I can see, like, what an unkindness that I was asking myself to not have that resistance, because I'm just so afraid of getting hurt.
Eva: Yes. Yes. Okay. But so, because what, what led to this was you're talking about resistance has a purpose and [01:07:00] what I'm hearing you say and how I usually experienced was how experiences of the purpose is like actually just protection.
Kyley: Yeah.
Eva: It's like protecting our little baby hearts that like are feeling vulnerable and exposed and it's very, it's actually very kind and it always is.
It's always very kind. It's always this like, almost like, um, yeah, I mean, it shows a bunch of different flavors, but, but for example, it could just be like a really scared little kid that's saying, like you're saying, like, you want me to do what again? You want me to go back out and do that again? Like, that's terrifying.
And I want to protect myself because I love myself, you know? So I think yes, there's a purpose to it. Um,
but I don't, so, so, and I think it can show us how to love ourselves more deeply. And I think, and I think that can be really beautiful, but I don't think that resistance is I I think maybe resistance in this context could be a pathway to more, to more [01:08:00] unconditional love for the self or some type of big love or some transmuting of something so that we can be kinder and more compassionate with ourselves.
But
I mean, simply put, I get all that. And also like, I don't like resistance. It's just to be like a little like, like bratty about it, you know, I was like, and also I don't fucking like it. Yes. Um,
Kyley: fully get that. And I think the thing that's the insidious thing that I'm hearing you doing, which I'm going to do too. Right. So like, but the insidious thing that I'm hearing you doing is basically. Resistance is fine, is fine as long as I can make it go away. Right? Resistance is fine as long as I can alchemize it, transmute it, which case
Eva: And that, yeah.
Kyley: not actually unconditional, that's conditional love,
Eva: Yes. Yes. Yes.
Kyley: as you can make yourself other.
Eva: Yes.
Kyley: Because resistance is always [01:09:00] actually the fucking doorway into unconditional love, right?
Mm-hmm
Eva: Okay. Yes. Yes. Yes. Okay. This is so good because it's like, you know how people, you know, we, you know, people also me, me and you talk about feeling our feelings a lot, but it's like, you can't just, I think it's problematic when we do things with an agenda. It's like, we feel our feelings just to, just to make them go away.
I think, um, you know, it's just more control coming in through the back door. Yeah. That's it's when you're saying, I feel like what you're saying right now is a is another iteration of that. It's like, I'm not actually allowing resistance, I'm allowing it so that it can go away. But actually, I think if I'm going to like,
I was gonna say like, if I'm going to walk the walk, I don't know if I like that language right now. But it's more like if I want to actually Okay. like live what I believe, which is to be a loving presence in the world. It means to love my resistance to like, to really [01:10:00] love my resistance at all. And I'm like, Oh my God, this is so helpful.
And also cause I'm seeing how I don't want to do that. Um, but, but that's exciting to me. Cause I'm like, Oh, okay, good. Like the more resistance, the fact that I'm resisting doing that, I think is a signal that there's something here for me.
Kyley: Well, and the, the, one of the beautiful things that came out of that realization in my, in my own, you know, recently in my own business was that I turned to this like, kind of timid self, I was like. Okay, you set the pace, right? And you know, listen, I'm not shy about how like I have a lot of ambition, right?
I'm not shy about the fact that I have always felt like a lot I can do with this body of work that I've been building and that I believe in so passionately and you know, like a girl wants to go to Portugal this summer,
Eva: Mm hmm. Mm hmm. Mm hmm. Mm
Kyley: And I [01:11:00] turned that very resistant, scared, timid self, and I was like, Okay, I kind of hate it, but you can be in charge of the pace, right?
Like,
Eva: hmm.
Kyley: you need us, you need us to move slow. And I have been kicking and screaming about moving slow for a minute, but I'm gonna trust, and to me, that's what it felt like. You know, we call, we call resistance, but it felt like actually, I just wasn't trusting myself.
Eva: Yeah.
Kyley: And, and the invitation was, and I, like, this is very alive right now, right?
So I'm still sitting in it, but it's like, okay, what does it mean if I trust? the most timid part of me, right? What does it mean if, like, my biggest villain is actually this, like, little powderpuff who's just fucking terrified and doesn't want anyone to see us, right? The villain isn't Because in the past when I've done, like, thought about in terms of villain, like, the villain is, like, [01:12:00] selfish me or takes up too much space me, but it's like, what if right now the villain that I have to love is just this, like, little timid church mouse who would like the whole world to pass her by?
Eva: Mm hmm. Mm hmm.
Kyley: and what would it mean if I didn't make a wrong?
Eva: Yes. Ah, that feels really beautiful, actually. Like some deep medicine. Or your version of this, like loving this little, you know, this little mouse, squeaky little mouse. And, and when you say that, I just experienced that it's just like so much love. And, and when you said, um, actually wrote this down, like you're just not trusting yourself in those moments, but that squeaky little church mouse is, is part of the self.
And, and I think what you're saying that's resonating with me is like, and if you don't like let it be, it's just another version of self rejection. And so. How I'm taking that and putting that into context [01:13:00] for this, like, this conversation about resistance is like, I'm not trusting my own resistance either.
Like, I'm, I'm casting it aside. I'm, there's something, like, something actually very exciting when you said that. I was like, well, what if, if I'm not trusting, like, I want to try to trust all parts of myself. So what if I could also trust resistance? Like, You know, I, I literally wrote down notes, uh, let resistance be in charge of the pace for, for once, which is, um, you know, the antithesis of I think how I usually, Or how I think that's how I'm supposed to do things, like, basically, there's a magic and a gift here, I think, for me to play around with and explore and be with the thing that I judge the most, or, you know, in this case, it's like resistance, because, because once again, I've taken another spiritual concept and, and turned it against myself, because this idea of like spiritual people and [01:14:00] spiritual, not even people, but like, the most effective way to be close to God is to be, is to surrender.
To everything. You and I know we love Surrender. We talk about it 24 fucking seven. But the irony here is actually what we're saying is to surrender to resistance.
Kyley: Right. Yes. And not, and the, and the, the wild thing is like, it's surrender to resistance. Not so that resistance goes away. Right. It's like,
Eva: yes,
Kyley: resistance you, yeah. You get to set the pace.
Eva: yes. Not so good. Yeah. That you get to actually be here for as long as you need to be here. Like, I'm willing to be a home for you. Yes,
Kyley: and as I'm saying this, I can feel where this feels actively uncomfortable in my body, right, like I can feel the truth of it, there's like a softness, there's a settled ness that comes over me, and at the exact same time, could, I am resistant to it, right, it is [01:15:00] also actively an uncomfortable thing to contemplate, like, whoa, if I let it out.
my resistant little timid church mouse self. If I really, really, really trust her, we could grind the whole thing to a halt
Eva: yes.
Kyley: give up and we might
Eva: Let the world walk all over you and all of your potential will be wasted and, you know, you're never gonna reach your Oprah dreams, your Taurus Oprah dreams.
Kyley: yeah.
Eva: And your family might be, you know, at risk, you might be jeopardizing, you know, like all the stories
Kyley: yeah,
Eva: come in.
Kyley: and my little church mouse is like, well, we don't want to meet Oprah, right? The church mouse is like, but I don't. I want to meet Oprah. I want to feel safe.
Eva: So then what do you do from there?
Kyley: Um, well, I just kind of keep talking to her and I've been basically trying to negotiate and I've been like, okay, what does it look like [01:16:00] if you set the pace and we get like this bare minimum of needs met, right? I've been kind of basically trying to like broker a truce. That's like, you get to be in charge of the pace and The kind of condition is pace can't be that we have like our core needs in question.
Eva: Yes. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Right.
Kyley: like edge in my nervous system is like well if we go for broke we put all it go put all the chips in then we can get our needs met and if we like lean into the church mouse We can be timid, but we won't, but we won't get what we need. And so I'm like kind of trying to like find energetic balance of we could be timid, but have everything that we need taken care of. I'll let
Eva: Right. Yeah.
Kyley: I'm like [01:17:00] literally touching like my sternum right now, because that's where I feel the, that's where I feel this energy, like trying to sort itself out.
Eva: Yeah. I mean, when hearing you talk it, it really sounds like, you know, just like a reparenting, almost like a, the way that I feel like you would talk to Birdie or Desi and be like, Hey, like, I know you're scared and you're totally allowed to be scared and we don't need to, I don't know, there's like a kindness, but also like, um, a kindness and a gentleness, but also, yeah.
Not, uh, how would I say this, like, in parenting, I mean, you might even have better language for this, but also, um, a kind expectation, too, you know, to your child of being like, well, yeah, you can be scared, but also, I know that you can also, um, like, do this scary thing that you're, that you're afraid of doing.
Kyley: Yeah. And I mean, [01:18:00] but I think what feels yes, but what feels different is it also feels like what I'm actually saying which is what feels really terrifying is it's okay if you don't do the thing that you're scared of, right? It's actually okay if you don't go into the scary cave. If you look at it, you say, nah, maybe next time.
Eva: Okay, hold on, record, okay, record skipping moment in my brain. Maybe I'm understanding a new Way because that is so different from I think how you and I both usually operate because we are we're like
And even as I say this I'm like, oh that's interesting maybe it's just Another like costume that we've put on but we're but you and I are both the Queens of like let's fucking let's go in Let's go in to it, you know,
Kyley: Yeah. Yeah.
Eva: I think that's actually very telling Isn't it? That it's uncomfortable for both of us, because what you're saying is like, also I'm like, oh, well, that's new.
Like, because [01:19:00] the medicine has always been, you know, the only way out is through. And what you're saying is, if you listen to the little church mouse, that's like resistant, you're actually saying, well, and also, you don't have to go through
Kyley: Yeah, and, and I think, because everything's paradox, it's still saying the only way out is through, but it's, it's a different, it's a different thing that we're going through,
Eva: Yes. Yes.
Kyley: The through is not like, I don't care that you're scared, fucking do it anyway. Show up and, you know, make yourself known.
It's, yeah, hide. Okay.
Eva: Right. Well, because what I was thinking when I was saying like, it wasn't that like, you know, show up and do it scared. It's more like go into our feelings. You and I are both like, let's go into the grief. Let's go into the love. Let's go into the bliss. Let's go into the rage. Like let's go in. And so it's doing that paradoxical thing of what you're saying is to go into not going into.
[01:20:00] Yes,
Kyley: Yeah. I can feel how much we're both feeling like, wow.
Eva: it's one of those, like, we're just getting into the loopy looptiness of it all now at this point, which is what, you know, tends to happen on this podcast. But I do actually think that that's very valid. I do think what you're saying is very valid, like, um, yeah. To go into, to, doesn't, I don't know, podcast listeners, is this making sense?
To go into the not going into,
Kyley: Yeah. Yeah.
Eva: or, and, and, or in other words, to surrender. to resistance is my takeaway of that.
Kyley: Yeah. I really liked the phrase you said of like, let resistance set the pace. I think that's one of the things that I'm taking away from this conversation for sure. And my recent experience is maybe resistance. a kind of [01:21:00] break, right? Like sometimes I get really annoyed at myself because I can feel in my body, like Brady will be all snuggled up and I can just feel where the limit is of what I'm allowing myself to feel, right?
I will just like, I can just feel in my body where the, like, you know, this little baby girl loves me unconditionally. I love her unconditionally. And yet I can observe. that I'm only letting myself experience at a certain, like, a certain amount. And I'll have a lot of judgment and annoyance around that, because
Eva: Mm hmm. Mm hmm.
Kyley: this like, peak experience in life, and you're not letting it
Eva: Mm
Kyley: because you're afraid, because it'll hurt, because whatever, whatever, whatever. And I get really annoyed about it. I mean, not always, but sometimes. And, um, yeah, and there's something that feels really but I think actually really liberating.
That's like, Okay, so maybe you have an arbitrary cap [01:22:00] that you put on experiencing how much the world loves you. Okay, fuck it.
Eva: hmm.
Kyley: What if that was like, what if that resistance wasn't a problem? Or what if your body, nervous system, heart like needs to go slow?
Eva: Mm hmm. Mm
Kyley: to like microdose through life on how much the world loves her
Eva: hmm. Mm hmm.
Kyley: eventually one day maybe she can feel, she, me can feel it deeper in a kind of blown out way, but like, maybe I, maybe I can't, maybe I'm too scared to do that, right?
I know, I know if I actually let myself the truth of how much life loves me, my kids love me, like, it would blow my brains out.
Eva: Mm hmm. Yeah.
Kyley: maybe I, maybe I
Eva: Yeah.
Kyley: but maybe that resistance is like, Yeah, just creating some safe on ramp kind of energy and it's [01:23:00] not actually the enemy at
Eva: Yes. Like, what if you could trust that?
Kyley: Yeah.
Eva: Yeah. Well, it sounds like this is both exper this is experimental for both of us. So, podcast listeners, we're gonna try this on and report back. Or, you know, if you're on this ride and, you know, you're a couple steps ahead, let us know. Let us know how it's working out for you.
Wow. This is interesting. This is not where I thought the conversation was going, and it never, it never is. Um, it's another way of saying, like, it's good to be back.
Kyley: I want to let this like percolate for you So maybe we'll have a round two on on this topic because I'm I'm curious once you sit with this What is the, like, what's, because I think, I feel like [01:24:00] once this settles in, there's going to be a kind of wisdom that the resistance has to show you, like a kind of like sneak reveal, like you thought I was, you know, the evil wizard behind the curtain, but you know, I'm actually your bestie or whatever.
Anyways, I'm, I'm
Eva: Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Kyley: to watch how this
Eva: What I'm feeling about resistance is what you just said earlier, which is that I'm afraid that if I let it in, it's going to slow down everything. And it's going to slow down.
Yeah, like you just said, I put everything to a halt. I don't even know what that everything is, like growth, happiness, progress, rest, you know, like even resistance might look like, because we think of resistance as like, okay, well, then I'll have more, I'll have more space for rest. But I actually think it's just gonna halt everything, even rest.
It's like, um, expansion because, you know, I just got here to Brazil and the energy here feels very potent to me. [01:25:00] Like, like, The, the possibilities, the energy here of the mountain and the people and the culture feels like there's a, there's a, there's this gift of infinite potential. And I know that I've, you know, I haven't even been back a week so I've known that I've wanted these first few weeks just to start off kind of slow and just give myself space to integrate and do whatever feels natural and I don't know what's going to come up and just kind of go with the flow.
But I can also tell there's a part of me. That is like, let's fucking go, you know, like I want to use this time to Really what I keep saying is like, just reveal to me, like To be really, really open and to let life show me It's a lot easier for me to be open here, you know? So it's more like, reveal to me what it is that you want me to know And I guess I have this story of like, well if I let resistance in, I'm just gonna Block all of that,
Kyley: [01:26:00] Yeah.
Eva: but I think no, it's the opposite, there's some Paradoxical irony thing here that's happening, you know?
It's like, actually, what if I don't know, making peace, it just feels like I need to make peace with resistance, somehow. And I wonder, it doesn't compute in my mind, I'll be really honest with you right now, Kylie, it's not computing in my mind because resistance to me has always been the enemy. So I'm like, I don't actually understand how if I make peace with resistance, how that might actually serve, um,
Kyley: how can anything actually the enemy? How could anything that is you
Eva: Yes.
Kyley: actually be the
Eva: Yeah. And that's, I think that's why, that's why I think I can trust, like, even though it doesn't compute in my brain when you say that, I'm like, okay, but yeah, thank you. Like you're reminding me of like, as long as any part of me is I'm treating myself as an enemy, that's all, that's always going to be, um, like that's [01:27:00] like, if there was such a thing as like the resistance, isn't the block, it's the resistance to resistance, like the resistance to myself.
Uh huh. Uh huh. Uh huh.
Kyley: inner critic as like a colonizer and like she like, how much territory does she have? at any given moment, and when she has less territory, it's not that she goes away, but she just has less, she's under resourced, so she can kind of like do less damage, you know? And so, I think for both of us, you know, and the experience of our own inherent resistance. It's just like the fertile domain of the inner critic, which has been fully colonized, right? But it's actually neutral,
Eva: Mm hmm.
Kyley: is actually neutral. It's just because there was a point in both of our lives where you and I thought that like anger was the enemy, or
Eva: Mm hmm.
Kyley: know, like some people feel like grief and sadness [01:28:00] is the enemy, right?
Like we don't do that anymore. Um, but like, For the most part, resistance is actually neutral. It's just been colonized by the inner critic and I think, I don't know, there's a like letting it return to a rewilding of resistance,
Eva: Yes. Yes. Yeah, I think that's a great way to put it. Rewilding of resistance.
Alright. Yeah. Mm hmm.
Kyley: like I can feel how much my internal state feels unsafe, right? At the exact same time. I just want to acknowledge the paradox of it, right? Is that it's like, and I'm also like, oh, this definitely ends badly, you know? So we just hold all that.
Eva: I'm actually really curious about this, though. Like, I really want to experiment and, like, come back and report back to, I don't know, listeners, or at least with you. We'll see how it unfolds. [01:29:00] Um. But I just trust, I actually really do trust life and I trust our conversations and, um, I'm like, if this is what's coming back up for me and for us, like the first week I'm back in Brazil and the first, you know, that we're, we're back together again, then okay.
I'm listening. I'm listening. Yeah.
Kyley: Should we do joy?
Eva: Yeah. Um,
I'm going to just sit for a second because, okay, okay, can you go first? Okay. Okay. Um, I feel like there's, um, all right, Kylie.
Kyley: Okay, I'm ready when you are. Yeah, absolutely. All right.
Eva: So what's bringing you joy in this moment?[01:30:00]
Kyley: So as I mentioned, I was insanely sick last week and still don't feel 100%. And so last week I needed to find some kind of entertainment that only required about two brain cells. And so I purposely sought out, like, just like cozy, cozy fantasy novels, and for anyone who's not like on BookTok, cozy is like, the stakes are low, the adventure is, you know, just like not, it's not it's mild, mild level of adventure, right? And, and I've read, I've read, I mean I've finished like four books or five books, right? Because I just nothing else for me to do. And it was so fun to just eat these, to read these books that are just like eating popcorn. You know, like, they don't even Because the stakes are so low, because the adventure is so mild, it's, you don't even get the like, nail biting,
Eva: Yeah.[01:31:00]
Kyley: will they win this battle?
It's like, there's no fucking battle, it's just like, I opened a, you know, I opened a coffee shop, and I'm a magical creature. Um, And so I've just been for like a week and a half just like a book a day of these just like delightful, charming, low stakes, quirky books and uh, and it's really, it just feels really fun. This was really fun.
Eva: That sounds a freaking amazing, like, I actually think that's one of the gifts of being sick is how indulgent, to me, I experienced it as indulgence, like that I don't allow myself normally when I'm a, you know, able bodied enough to go out and like do life. It's like, I'm, I just love that for you.
Kyley: Thank you.
Eva: Yeah.
Kyley: I, I am, I am not snobby about books. Like I, you know, I've got a master's degree in English. Like I've [01:32:00] read all sorts of great literature and I love reading great literature. And also I love reading trashy, silly books.
Eva: Yes. Yes. Yes.
Kyley: purposely sought out, like, need this to be level material, right?
I need this to be. Um, like just totally superficial and that was a, that was a fun like, uh, yeah, that was a fun thing to seek out.
Eva: Yeah.
Kyley: I'm just enjoying reading this like, yeah, it just feels like eating popcorn kind of books.
Eva: I mean, I actually just love that. I'm actually quite amazed that even in your sixties, I know you, I know you love reading so much, but even when you're sick, it's that you go towards books. Cause I feel like oftentimes, or maybe I'll just speak for myself when I'm sick, I go for like trashy TV. Cause I'm like, I don't even think I can like absorb a book, but
Kyley: You know, [01:33:00] I just, I'm realizing I don't really like TV that much.
Eva: I think I'm, I mean, I, yeah, I think I
Kyley: it's, and it's,
Eva: knew that.
Kyley: I, yeah, cause I, I don't, I don't watch a lot of TV. Um, some of it is that Nick and I have very different tastes, but I don't watch a lot of TV. I did when I was younger, but yeah, if I have time to myself, I tend to much, I tend to read, read and enjoy reading a lot more than I like. TV. Yeah,
Eva: England thing.
Kyley: sometimes I wish I did like TV more though, because I think it was really fun when I was younger, and there are some great, there are some really great stories that are told through TV,
Eva: Yeah, but I actually love this about you. Yeah, I love this about you, though. It's like, books are your thing.
Kyley: Yeah, they really are. And I know, I mean I may have [01:34:00] shared this on the show before, but I also know like books are my canary in the coal mine, like if I'm not reading, it's a sign that
Eva: Mm hmm.
Kyley: my mental health or nervous, like there's some level of self care
Eva: Yeah.
Kyley: if I'm not reading and I'm grateful for it.
Yeah.
Eva: Barometer.
Kyley: to have that. Yeah, exactly. Exactly.
Eva: Yeah, that's really cool, actually. I love barometers like that. Okay, well, so that's a good transition into my joy. I was noticing that a good barometer of, like, how my life is doing is if I'm Instagramming you pictures of food that I'm cooking.
Because it means, one, I have time to cook food, which is already a privilege, and, and especially breakfast. If I have time to cook breakfast, like, I'm doing good. You know what I mean? Like, because like, really cook breakfast. Not like, you know, we all have busy days where we just kind of like skip [01:35:00] breakfast or eat a bowl of cereal or granola bar or something, but I'm talking about breakfast.
As you may know, I don't know if you remember, it is my favorite meal of the day. And so, like, it is such a luxury to just, you know, do, like, the whole toast, sausage, eggs, avocado, whatever, you know, like, side salad, like, ugh, ugh, so, so good. So, and, and I, yeah, I think my joy, I'm over, I think I have an abundance of joy that I want to share now.
Honestly, to make up for the joys that I didn't get to share when I was in Taiwan because I, when we were recording when I was in Taiwan, I remember you, you know, we would come to this question and I'd be like, I couldn't like, there were, there were moments where I couldn't think of a, like a real joy, you know, that like a real spark in my life.
So it feels really nice to be like, I think the thing that's bringing me joy right now is like these little, um, gifts of life that represent to me more stability. Like I, to me, [01:36:00] routine is. A privilege if it's a routine that you like anyway, but it's like I get to like I'm sleeping earlier and waking up earlier.
I get, I'm seeing the sunset, you know, like I'm making breakfast for myself and, um, being back on the podcast, you know, like my life was so disoriented that I didn't, that I couldn't, you know, yes, exactly. Yes, exactly. My barometers.
Kyley: barometers were like. letting you know, like levels are off
Eva: Yes. Level. Yes. Yes.
Kyley: didn't have the capacity to have, you know, it wasn't an option for it to be other than that,
Eva: Yeah.
Kyley: for you to have those pockets of care
Eva: Yes. And that feels good. I feel like my nervous, you know, just, it's just good for my nervous system. And, but I just want to keep going because I have to say like being back in Brazil, it's like the blue skies and I can hear frogs at night. And there's all these different bugs that I've never seen before.
There's always like a [01:37:00] new bug, you know, a new insect and they're all so interesting looking. And it's like, and I used to, I remember last year getting here and being like, you know, kind of freaked out just like my, my, my. My, I think connection with nature, you know, is ever evolving and not as even like, I mean, I used to be really, really, really afraid of bugs, you know, when I was like living my LA, California, like, yeah.
Kyley: talking about the cool bugs and I was like imagining like 14 year old Eva just being like, ew.
Eva: Exactly. Oh, that's exactly it. I mean, my, I would go to Taiwan and my, my cousin who was really into camping, like put a bug in my hand one time and I like totally freaked out and I was like, ew, it's gross. Like, ew, bugs. Why do you put a, you know, why is anyone interested in bugs? And now I'm like, Hey, little friends, you know?
So, and it's just so good to be back with the people here and I feel so welcomed and so invited. And, um, yeah, just those are my, those are my joys.[01:38:00]
Kyley: those are lovely joys.
Eva: Yay.
Kyley: All right listeners, we will see you again next week and hopefully my voice will be back more
Eva: Yes.
Kyley: and until next time.
Eva: We love you.