This week is all about community, feeling dissatisfied, being social, wanting more and the importance of being together.
This week is all about community, feeling dissatisfied, being social, wanting more and the importance of being together.
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Eva and Kyley
Kyley: [00:00:00]
Hey, it's Kylie.
Eva: And its Eva
Kyley: Welcome back to Hello Universe. Um, I'm so happy to be back. I'm so happy for all the beautiful messages you all have been sending us from listening to the episodes. Um,
Eva: Yeah. Screenshot us. Y'all. Like, someone messaged us today and said that she was taking screenshots of the part that she wanted to go back and listen to, and my heart just fluttered . And, um, yeah, I mean, I feel like we don't say this enough, but if you, if there is a part that like really resonates with you, you can screenshot us, tag me and Kylie in it.
We like, really love to [00:01:00] know that people are listening and that it's resonating.
Kyley: And I feel like like. I feel like the most genius schemer in the world, in the sense that like this, this space, okay, where I get to come and talk to you and learn from our guests is just like build my cup in ways that I can't even describe. And then the fact that other people are also like, like part of this with us, I just feel, um, yeah, I just feel like this is a, this is a, this is a, this is a great thing we made, Like, this is so fun.
We get to just like, take care of each other, learn from amazing guests, and then also other people are lifted up by it. Like it's just, I'm
Eva: Yeah. I mean, yes. Uh, you were talking about how this like filters your cup, like truly. Um, I feel so much more grounded when we get to have these conversations every week. Like I look for, I'm like always like, I can't wait til I see Kenny on [00:02:00] Wednesday. Then when she can like, help me, then I can like, you know, vent about this thing and she can help me detangle it.
So, yeah.
Kyley: yeah,
Eva: All right. Well, before we jump into this week's topic, we wanted to share some things with y'all guys. Some stuff that we've been working on.
Kyley: What do you got? Cracking?
Eva: Yeah, so I am working on flow. Um, I really, my program all about healing your relationship with productivity, which, uh, ironically and not ironically, is just, I'm, I'm being put through the WR right now , so that I can more deeply learn these lessons.
This lesson that I feel like I've been spend, you know, really has been a lifetime lesson of. I think cultivating a really healthy relationship and balance with, um, not just work, but also worth and doing and stressing out about time and my like to-do list and taking all of that and really transferring into something that feels more true to me, which is like learning how to be [00:03:00] overdue, learning how to be in my body rather than be in my mind.
And learning how to trust that as long as I am doing what feels most true to me, I will always be served and held. And that is like really, really deep work for me, I think. And it's something that I. Um, C is like a huge cause of suffering for a lot of people. Whether you're an entrepreneur, whether you're an artist, whether you, you're a mom with, you know, with kids who's, I mean, moms I think are argues, arguably possibly the busiest cuz you're like, not only taking care of yourself, but everybody else.
Um
Kyley: I think the, the guilt story about how you should be busy and how like, like your rest is selfish is as someone who's struggled with this productivity thing in all aspects of her life, it has its hooks. Like I've unhooked from it in most places to some extent, but it is, it, it, it's, it's trickier [00:04:00] with
Eva: Yeah, for sure. And I think there's a lot of areas where, uh, there's, there's certain areas in which we're. Each of us are triggered in different ways, whether you're a mother, whether or not like you are, um, working for yourself or whether or not, because you're like an immigrant, you and your parents were immigrants, and you have this idea of like, hard work is the thing that makes you a valuable person.
Like there's certain things that will just like really, really trigger a person. And I honestly believe that, you know, I feel like I say this on the show all the time, but like, what's in the way is the way. So like, if this is a thing that's constantly showing up for you, this is also your portal to towards more liberation.
And I just feel like this idea of like, it's a divesting from capitalism in some ways and colonialism that brings us back to like the truth of who we are. And I want to be able to share that with everyone so that we're not so stress the fuck out all the time.
Kyley: Well, and I think like, you know, you said a point if it's, if it's one of the things that's showing up for you a lot and I think one of the [00:05:00] ways you can tell if it's a, like cuz sometimes it shows up for you so much that you don't even realize. Like even hard to tell. Right? Um, and I think if you are someone who thinks about what you should be doing all the
Eva: Mm-hmm. . Yeah.
Kyley: you're someone who just has a constant shatter around like obligations, Asking yourself if you're meeting those obligations, if you have a lot of mental chatter around work and the things that you think you need to do and worry that you're not doing enough.
Like if you basically, if you are constantly worried on some level that you're not doing enough flow is for you.
Eva: Yes, exactly. Thank you. Thank you for selling that for me perfectly. Um,
Kyley: Director Kylie
Eva: yeah.
Kyley: to get her moment
Eva: she's coming in and doing, doing her thing. Yeah. Um, I love what you said though, about how like, sometimes you don't even know that this is like, that this is an issue. Like I think a lot of people, depending on where you are, just assume that they're like, Oh wait, I can, this can be [00:06:00] different.
Or like, it's not supposed to be this way. It's just, it's been so normalized and we see it so much in our culture that like, they have yet to see that there's a better way and like, and, um, I don't know. That makes me kinda sad to be honest. And I think I feel that way because I used to be that way. I just, I took this to be like, Oh, of course this is, this is how it is.
And that's a really, really, really limited way to live life. So if you wanna get out of the loops, get unhook yourself from the system, you know, not feel like you're in this limited confines of like life only having to be an endless. Like, um, storing your mind about what do I need to do? What I need to do?
Yes. Flow is for you. In the show notes, there's gonna be a link to, um, the early bird list. So if you wanna get yourself on the wait list, that's where you can get, you know, notified and all the, all the special pricing prices and discounts and bonuses and everything. So if you're interested, click on that and you'll hear from me. [00:07:00] Yay. All right. What about you, Kylie? What would you like to share with our beautiful listeners?
Kyley: dat da da. Um, yeah, I'm super excited. But I am in the, I, I, okay, I don't know when this is coming out exactly, but , um, but I'm in the middle of, uh, running doors open for a program that I am so pumped about. Um, it's called Sovereign. Earlier in an episode, I told you it was called Fearless. That was a lie.
It's called Sovereign Same program. Um, this is the one tricky thing about us recording these, like, you know, before the earlier earlier. Um, anyway, uh, as you guys know, I spent well over a decade being a sales executive, being a sales director. Um, the kind of practical aspects of like how to create something that [00:08:00] makes money is something I spend a lot of time learning.
Um, and then in running a spiritual business, I spend a lot of time unlearning.
Eva: Mm.
Kyley: Because then I spent the past few years unlearning this idea of like, Oh, all this is required and you have to do this and you have to hustle. And like the more you work, the more you make, right? And so I think I feel really excited cuz I feel like this is a moment of integration where all of that, like decade plus wisdom is combined with the part of me who also did a really like deep dive of unlearning.
And so this program is really designed to teach you how to generate sales in your business. And it's actually probably the most practical program that I've ever put together. Um, a lot of, I think a lot of what people are taught when they're learning how to like grow their business is marketing and, uh, marketing.
Is passive sales. So marketing [00:09:00] is like, I'm gonna grow my audience, I'm gonna get up there, I'm gonna talk. And eventually some people are gonna come and find me and hire me. And sales is like, I am asking for a sale, right? I am like putting out spec, this specific offer with these specific timelines, right?
Launching is sales, whereas like just generally showing up is marketing. Um, and one is not better than the other. But most people don't learn sales and most people are afraid of it. And most people are stuck only knowing marketing and maybe knowing it really, really well, and then feeling like, why isn't this working?
And um, and the distinction, like the thing like from a kind of energetic sovereignty standpoint, sales is about being, it, it's about feeling your own power, right? Like that's why people are afraid of it because they're afraid they don't know how to engage with asking for business and like, Running a launch and doing all these aspects without feeling like they have to hustle, without [00:10:00] feeling manipulative, without feeling like really scared that they have to be pushy, right?
There's, there's this confusion about how to be powerful in that arena, so people just stay out of it. Um, and so that's part of why I speak to this being, this like, um, integration of like these two bodies of wisdom that I have. Um, because it's, it's a program that's really designed to walk you through how to understand the flow of actively creating sales in your business, but from a sovereign place, from a place of your own sense of power and clarity and unhooked from like all of the gross obligation manipulation tactics that you might have learned in other places.
So I am. Outrageously excited about this. Um, it will make you money So if you, if you have a [00:11:00] business, and you, especially I think for people who've been at it for a little while and are like, Okay, I, like, I have some sense of like how I wanna be showing up and also, like, I'm not consistently making money and I don't, and I, and when I do make money, it feels random.
Um, this is the program for you.
Eva: Yeah. So just to add to that, Ki Holly and I have, I feel like been doing some talking offline about this program. I think honestly like up all your programs, this is also the one that I'm like most excited about because as a business owner, like, God damn it, I just wish this program was around that I could have worked with you when I was first starting out, or, or even just feeling really stuck in my business because I 100% got sucked into the matrix of like how you're like all the shoulds and like, you know, you get all those free fucking freebies from, from coaches and everyone, Everyone has a fucking opinion.
Like I was talking to you about the other day. Everyone has a fucking opinion. [00:12:00] and it's overwhelming and you get lost and you lose your way and your intuition. You try and do things that maybe like every the way that other, some expert has told you that you should do it. And it's like so frustrating and you end up sort of like, yeah, I mean, I could just talk about that forever.
Like, I know firsthand how it's like a loop, how it's, um, also unsustainable and all the things. So this is why I'm so excited that you are creating this program because I know that you know sales and I love a fucking practical program. And I also could trust you completely in being able to guide people through like, okay, well how can I take this information but also, uh, use it in a way that feels aligned with what I believe, right?
Kyley: yeah. Thank
Eva: Mm-hmm.
Kyley: I, I think that's why also it ultimately, I named it Sovereign, which totally, like e the naming is really inspired by Eva. Eva's been like, You've really been the co-pilot of like, helping me birth this. Um, [00:13:00] um, but uh, I think the, the other piece about Sovereign is like, when you don't understand, Why people like you wouldn't understand.
Like, I'm trying to, like, I don't wanna like go off on a whole frigging , like,
Eva: Go, go off.
Kyley: but like for example, if you don't understand why people use, um, you know, discounts or like what the logic of it might be or what the possible logics of a discount might be, and you just do it because you think you have to, you might be doing it resentfully, you might be doing it because you're trying to make yourself smaller.
You might be doing it because you don't understand any other option. And so part of this program is teaching you like,
Eva: Or sorry, can I, can I, can I interrupt and say, also you might do it even if you like, it feels icky and wrong, but you do it cuz you think that you're, you should and you, Yeah. You like don't know why like,
Kyley: Yeah.
Eva: the energy behind that is so gross.[00:14:00]
Kyley: yeah. Or like people who, you know, some people swear by. Oh, on a consult call, like if you sign up right now, I'll give you 10% off. Which I think is just like gross and manipulative. Like even when people are, Hell yes. I'm like, go sleep on it. Talk, talk to me tomorrow. Right. But people learn that tactic and they're like, Well, I guess scarcity's required, so I'll use it.
But then it doesn't work because you are not, Or it does, but you feel gross about it, so, So the idea in this program is like, I'll give you a framework, but I'm also gonna talk you through like the whys of the framework so that you can pick which pieces actually resonate with you and which pieces you're like, Oh no, I don't wanna do that
Eva: Yep. Yep. Yeah, so I don't, I don't know if this is like tag, You mentioned that this might be the tagline in Tag Island or not. I think it really did sum it up really quickly. It's like, learn the rules so that you can break the rules. And I, and I think that's like, honestly my MO for everything is like, I wanna understand how something works, and then once I kind of get it, I wanna be like, okay, uh, like I feel like I can't [00:15:00] actually go and do something well and like break the system from within if I don't understand it.
So like, I wanna be able to understand a system so that I feel clear, clear and empowered enough to be like, Okay, now how do I wanna do it differently? But I also, you know, like by, by understanding the system, do you know what I mean?
Kyley: Yes. Cause when you don't understand it, you either have to follow someone else's playbook or you just like hide on the margins waiting and neither of those feel good. Neither of those are like powerful big steps that, and you, you wanna feel powerful in your business because the real joy of a business is, well, there's many, but there's something really powerful about realizing like, I want money.
I can make money, right?
Eva: Uhhuh, Yeah.
Kyley: like you can have this moment of like, I really wanna buy a new pair of shoes. Oh, I make money in my business. I'm gonna like do X, Y, and Z and like, make money. And that is actually a real thing that you get to do if you understand the, the mechanisms by which money comes into your [00:16:00] business.
But if you, if you only are playing the passive game, which you know, we could put under the marketing umbrella, then you feel a little at the mercy of like, Well, I'm just gonna surrender and the universe is gonna take care of me. And I think I'm interested in like surrender and power, right? Surrender like you are, like you are, you are God.
And also you are like a speck of dust, right? And so like how do you allow, how do you allow yourself to embody both rather than just surrender? How do you, how do you basically, like how do you surrender into feeling powerful and how does your sense of being powerful
Eva: help you surrender. Yep. Totally love it.
Kyley: I'm very amped. I just got myself all jazzed up about it.
Eva: That's what happens when we start talking about our offerings. So how can people find you? Or like what?
Kyley: Yeah. So kylie caldwell.com/sovereign, which if you can't spell sovereign cuz I fucking
Eva: Oh, I [00:17:00] misspell it. I use it all the time and it's always spell checked
Kyley: Yes, that an entrepreneur, like these are two words I have to use all the time. I'm like, I don't know, you can just go to kylie caldwell.com , or like find me on Instagram, whatever. It'll be linked everywhere. It's in the show notes. Um, but doors closed November 17th. Um, so let's, let's jump in. I'm so pumped.
Eva: Me too. Get it. Girl
Kyley: Thank you.
Eva: right. This week's topic, friends Kylie came to me, said, she said she wanna talk about community, which I immediately jumped on board with because like, I, I, I don't, community to me is huge, and yet I don't know how to build it and want more of it. So like, it is, it's this funny thing that feels like a, uh, a cornerstone of my life.
And yet, um, I am dissatisfied. Meaning, I think it, there can be more, it's really [00:18:00] important to me. So I just kinda wanna talk about like, what is community and Yeah. Mm-hmm. . Mm-hmm.
Kyley: it's felt louder to me because I think on the other side of, you know, the, you know, the way Covid is intermingled in our lives now, like we're reed, right? We're all like out and doing things. And so, um, uh, I'm noticing, I'm noticing a hunger for community in a particular kind of way.
That's the combo of mom of young kids post pandemic. Um, and I think also, like, I think there's a period of spiritual, for me, part of like, there was a, I think, lengthy period of my spiritual growth that felt really like, it just kept driving me inward in a way that. Like, wanted to be quiet and alone. Like I wanted my social world to be very small because I was like, I don't know, I'm dying every day.
I'm a new person every day. Like maintaining too many [00:19:00] relationships with this much dying and rebirth feels complicated. And uh, uh, I still feel like I die every day, but I'm like much more used to that
Eva: Yeah, Love it.
Kyley: Um, and so anyway, this has been like on the back burner, something my husband and I have been talking about a little bit.
Um, also my kids are like older and so they're like slightly more independent. Anyway, um, I went to visit my parents who live up in Maine. Hi mom, if you're listening. And they live in the cutest town that has like this really genuine sense of community. Um, and my mom owns a yoga studio there, so like everybody loves her and my, my sister-in-law and it just made me think a lot about,
Eva: can I pause you there? Cause already I'm curious when you say that there's a sense of community, what does that look like? How can you tell?
Kyley: Yes. Okay. Um, so, okay. Well, so then just to finish that thought, cuz then that's exactly what I wanted to speak to. [00:20:00] Um, uh, I just, I just noticed how much when I was there that I, it was like, it was like when you're sick and you eat an orange, you know, and you're like, Oh, I really needed, I need, this is the vitamin that I need.
Um, so do you know the book Bowling Alone?
Eva: Mm. Never heard of it.
Kyley: Okay. So I haven't read this book, um, true to 2022 Fashion. I'm gonna, I've, I've watched TikTok videos on it and read articles, , but it's, it's about this idea of third place. So like in society, you have home, you have work, and then you have third place, which is like coffee shop, church, gym, right.
Places where you meet that are neither work or home where you like, Conduct like a bar, like Cheers is a great example of third place, right? Um,
Eva: Sorry, I'm making a face because, Okay. Hold on. I'm making a face because, uh, I'll, I'll talk about this more on, [00:21:00] on, on a different podcast, but like I've, um, but this will actually, what am I about to be speak to, speaks to this idea of community. Like I've been offered this opportunity to go to Austin and the person to who I will be like working with.
That's what she wants to create. She wants to create a third space. I had never heard of that phrase before, but that's exactly, she's like her home. She wants it to be the third space for people. So she kind of explained it to me. I had never heard of the term term before, so it's just kids admit that I'm hearing it here too.
Kyley: God, I could not love that more
Eva: Yeah.
Kyley: This is very, very magical. Um, yeah. So it's this idea that there are like these places that you go and you are. Social. Right. And you can just like show roll on it and be social. And so the book Bowling Alone is, um, from what I understand is about like how those third places have been dying off in America for a long time. And the town that my parents live in, I think has a really like, really wonderful culture of [00:22:00] third place. Um, like the co like you go to the co-op and you're like, Oh, like every, every cool person is here. Like you, you could, you could roll up to the co-op and get your cup of coffee and just sit and wait until you like meet someone to
Eva: Mm-hmm. . Mm-hmm.
Kyley: Um, and uh, which I did not appreciate when I moved there at 16. Let the record show
Eva: Yeah. I was gonna say like, this is where I, um, struggle with idea community, which is that I crave it so deeply, but also there's something about that that also sounds like it could be a nightmare. Like what , what if you like, The reason I love New York, which is the same reason people hate New York, is that I love my anonymity.
I can never say that word.
Kyley: Anonymity. Yeah.
Eva: I like, I love that I can be just in a sea of people and like just completely. Uh, free cuz I don't like have to, I just, there's a freedom in that for me, where if it's a loneliness for other people. Um, but I guess what I'm trying to say is like, I feel so [00:23:00] torn and this is where I struggle with community, cuz I like, know that I really, really want it.
I know that connection and people are so important. I've been humbled actually many times where I thought I could do something on my own and then I just realized that I was like lonely. Um, and so I think it's like, it's hard for me who's like more of an introvert to be like, I think I almost like need, it's like a, it feels like a sacrifice to me.
Like in order for me to have community, it's a little bit of sacrificing of that anonymity because then every time I go to my co-op, I'm gonna have to talk to someone.
Kyley: Yeah, I mean that's totally valid. I think that's why people get freaked out by small towns, which, Right. Um, and I think what's interesting cuz you know, I lived in, I lived in Boston and Cambridge for over a decade and like loved it. And I loved the anonymity. Like I loved that I could like, put on headphones and like basically dance down the street.
Like a crazy person was like, I don't fucking care. Who are you? Right. Like [00:24:00] I really found a lot of freedom in that and I felt like I had a really rich community of like, friends that live nearby who were also like grad students, work from other people that I could be like, Do you wanna go co-work in a coffee
shop? And the particular like neighborhood I lived. Had some great third place, like had the coffee shop, had a cool bar, like there were places now that I have this term, I'm like, Oh, that's part of the magic of where I lived was these like was these places that we could meet. And so I had people that lived geographically close, close to me.
And then also we had cool places to go to, which is great. Cause my apartment was 500 square feet , right?
Eva: Yeah, I guess I could say I can really, Cuz I think, yeah, I went to school in Philly and it was the same way, you know, like I had a big enough of a city where I can like just be by myself, but I had a, like, I had like a crazy tight knit community in college and like, like almost, Yeah, it was a really [00:25:00] interesting experience.
Like it was family. It was family for a lot of people who like didn't really feel like they had family at that time. Um, so I guess what I'm kind of hearing you say is like third space can be like, well, yeah. Is there, like, what I'm getting from what you're saying, I don't know if you're saying this is like, well maybe you can have both, like
Kyley: And I imagine that like the kind of ideal community you'd choose would be like the right distribution of, of right, of like, of space that didn't require you to talk to people every time you wanted to go to the right. Like, um, like I think that's every once in a while when I float moving to where my parents live, my husband is like, I love you.
I do not wanna do that. And I think one of the reasons is that it's this really small town, right? It's technically a city, but it's a main city.
Eva: Yeah, yeah.
Kyley: right?
Eva: Yeah. So,
Kyley: yeah. Anyway, sorry. Go ahead.
Eva: Um, I mean, I mean, honestly, like, I don't know why I'm so, actually No, I do know. I'm very curious about this [00:26:00] neighborhood that your family is in, because I don't, uh, I've never lived in a small town, so I'm just wanna under get, get a, again, go deeper and better understand the sense of community.
Like, so you go back there and visit your mom and like, you sense that there, you, like, you go to the store and you kind of see everyone who, like, they all know each other and like, what else are you picking up there that
Kyley: so their town is like very magical. And I don't think this is typical of small towns, but like the whole, the whole, there is a, there was a culture in this town of like doing cool community shit. Like in the summers they do like music every Friday. And uh, they. Close down the square on the, um, on New Year's Eve, and they do this like big New Year's Eve celebration where everyone like freezes, but like, and all the stores are open late and
Eva: Mm. Mm-hmm.
Kyley: Um, and they have this like a pretty thriving downtown where there's like lots of cute little shops and people doing like, interesting cool thing. So there's a, [00:27:00] there's like, just to me, it, it, and that always ha like, there's a commitment to, there's a commitment to building a thriving culture there in a way that I actually have never seen in other small towns.
Um, so I don't, I think they're like, you know, I wanna like give them a gold star. I don't think that every, every small town is like this. Um,
Eva: I know. That sounds amazing. It sounds amazing. Yeah. And sorry, were you gonna say something? I feel like I just cutting you off. Okay.
Kyley: ahead. Go for it. I'm more interested in what you have to say than what I have to say. So interrupt away.
Eva: All right. So, um, I wanna take a step back and just talk about, I think, well, I think maybe you are getting into this, like why is community so important?
But just as, even as you're talking about that, what it's making me think is like, that's so good for, um, older people, . Like, it's really good for, [00:28:00] like, I can see like, Yeah, if you're 16, you like, can't wait, can't wait to get the fuck out of that town. Right. And it's like, maybe, maybe some people love it and they, and they wanna stay.
Kyley: Yes. I was like, when I would, one summer I went home for college and I was like, this is the worst place in the, It's also, that was 20 years ago, and so like there's a lot more going on now, but I was also like, this is the worst place I could be in Boston. That's where I spend the rest of my time and like here I am, where like literally the whole town is closed on Monday.
It's like, this is terrible. So,
Eva: And I also think that's because when we're younger, we do have more community. Like, so when I was saying like I had community in Philly when I went to school and in New York, um, but I think definitely now that I'm 38 when I'm noticing is, you know, the, I don't wanna say inevitable, but what people to always told me was gonna happen was this.
Like, um, God, there's a word from this movie that's so funny. She called, they called it like ferocious pairing off or someone called it like this idea of like, people get into their nuclear [00:29:00] families and you know, I remember when I was young, people would always be like, You know, when you get older it's just gonna happen.
Like your friends are just gonna like, have their own life. Like, like they talked about it like this. It was this inevitable thing that made me so sad. Like, yeah, you know, you, you'll see like you're just not gonna see your friends as much and blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. And that was like really hard for me because I saw my friends a lot in college and when we were so close and even in New York.
But I have seen that happening. It is, it is this like nuclear thing. I also look, I like observe my elders a lot and see kind of where they're at and yeah, like my parents do to like a lot of different reasons, health stuff and all these different stuff that like didn't do a great job cultivating like friendships.
So I think they're kind of like, and then Covid happened and then like they got more isolated and I have two sets of grandparents. [00:30:00] One set that's like really social and like they have had friends their entire life and, and they go out and they do things and have another set of grandparents who they're just kind of, Yeah, they're kind of isolated.
And so I now, in this age, I'm like, not college, right? So I'm not gonna go to go back home and be like, Oh, this sucks. I'm gonna be like, Oh, this is so wonderful to, to, to have, If you don't have something like school or church maybe. I think cause people get a lot of community from church, but if you don't have like school or, and if you work in online business, like you and me and it can be really isolating and all of our friends are like splattered across the globe.
Um, more and more I'm like pe like I, Yeah. I just think it's so important. And I also have just, I've heard it from my clients, like people feel lone.
Kyley: Yeah. And I think like, I just, Yeah, it's like, I think the thing that I like about the idea of [00:31:00] third place a, and a place and it, and it places where like the really value community and foster it is that it makes it easy to be social. I think that's what I'm, I think that's what I've been feeling lately is like, You know, I have two small kids, like I'm also trying to run this business like, you know, in these like weird pockets of time and I miss people.
And so a, I had the problem of like, most of my best friends live fucking far away, right? Um, and uh, and then I have some, from some people near me that, like, in the beginnings of early stages of friendships, it seemed like they could be really cool. And also I was trying to schedule things with all their parents.
The small children is just like, Oh, I can't even explain how overwhelming that is. You know? And like, I'm like, you know, okay, what if I like had [00:32:00] some like new potential new mom friends and I invited them over and I'm like, Do we do it at bedtime? Do we do it before bedtime? Like, do we do it out like already?
My brain is just like, I don't know. It's too confusing. So I think. Versus, I'm lucky enough, my child's the best friend, lives three miles down the road, and I can be like, Hey, Meg, you wanna go like, run errands with me? And so I appreciate, like, I think that's it. It's this moment of like, I have all these friends who I could, like if you and I live near each other, I would be like, Hey, you wanna like, you know, go to the post office and then drink coffee with me.
You know? Um, there would be like an ease of that friendship. Making new friends is, can be, is work and a little bit of like, is this gonna be worth it? Am I gonna like put all this effort in? And then realize that like, I only kind of like
Eva: Yeah. Yeah, Yeah. Totally. Yeah. Or realize that you don't actually wanna be friends, and then that's like awkward, right?
Kyley: yeah, yeah. Or like, and, and yeah. So it's like, I don't know.
I just think I'm in this weird place of like [00:33:00] wanting to be social. Oh, that was the other thing I hosted at my yoga studio. I hosted this Sacred Rage dance party that was unfuck. Unbelievable.
Eva: hear about that.
Kyley: yeah, it was, it was. It was amazing and the people showed up and immediately it was clear that we could have just talked the whole time and that would've been medicine.
And then at my mom's yoga studio, I did a kow ceremony and it was the same thing. It was like, Oh, people are just hungry to be like together and sharing. So is why I wanted to bring it on the podcast. Cause I feel like there's a flavor of this for me that is like mom of young kids post covid stuff. But then there's also, I think just this collective sense of like longing to be together in person to like maybe just process the way we've all changed to, I don't know what.
Right. And that, that, that feels, Cuz the Sacred Rage Dance Party, basically they were all like, can we form a women's group? Will you make this a women's group? Like immediately? Right. Which I'm trying to figure out. Um, [00:34:00] uh, and so I guess, you know, half an hour into this conversation, I guess I'm just trying to like figure, like, I guess I'm just gonna pause it like.
I don't know. I guess I feel lonely cuz all my friends are online and that didn't matter for two years and now it does matter cuz we can be in person again. And it feels both confusing and it's like somehow, like too much work to do social things. But it's also the thing I'm really hungry for. So help
Eva: Okay. Okay. Okay. I mean, I don't know if this is like gonna be, um, the blind leading the blind or what?
Kyley: Yeah.
Eva: I under like, okay, two Kylie and Eve episodes ago, maybe he was three. Now I was talking about joining a commune like Tru. Truly, and that's still on the table, folks. That's not off the table, but.
That's how much I want community. And part of the appeal of that is that, you [00:35:00] know, if I actually, you know, applied and was accepted to one or however it would transpire, I wouldn't have to work at it. That's the beauty of an intentional community is that it's built in because I like you, I'm like, this feels like a lot of fucking work.
Okay, so this is, Okay. Okay, So I'm, I I'm really glad you're you're speaking to it though, because I definitely don't think we are alone. How I know is because there are memes on the internet and if there's a meme about it, , and that of course makes it true, but like,
Kyley: Oh my God. It's the truest thing ever. . I know this collective willingness because I read about it on this beat.
Eva: seriously people who are out there making memes like, I don't know who you are, but
Kyley: the Lord's work. Yeah. We should have a meme like if you're, if you're like job, you've like managed to scheme the internet where you just make memes and then sell merch out of Iters to come talk to us.
Eva: seriously. [00:36:00] But I also feel like your modern day prophets, you know, it's like you're re you're really reading the situation and then you're able to like, condense it into a really smart piffy one-liner.
Kyley: Although my favorite are memes that I read where I'm like, I have no fucking clue. Like this is like such a niche, niche, niche joke that I'm like, I don't, I used to listen to this great podcast just as it aside where they would do this. Um, they would do this really funny bit where there's two guys who were like internet experts and then this one guy who was like, I don't get the internet.
And he would bring these convoluted tweets and then be like, Could you please explain the joke to me? And they would spend like 20 minutes unpacking this, like layered upon, layered upon layered, like internet joke. It
Eva: love this. I love, I also just love that the ones you love the most are the ones that you don't get.
Kyley: Cause I just, I could just feel like, I love the boldness of like, I'm making a joke that five people will get and fuck it. I'm just putting it out there. There's something really, I
Eva: I hear you. I hear you. Um, [00:37:00] okay. But going back to the memes, the meme that I've seen a lot of is, um, something to the effect of, I will never say yes, but I always wanna be invited or something like, like all like, like you better still invite me, even though I'm gonna say no or something like that.
And I, and I've seen that version. I've also seen like a, a bunch of other ones kind of like adjacent meaning like the thing that I long for most that maybe wasn't the best example. I saw a meaning specifically that was saying like, what is my deal when, like the thing I long for most is to be around people, but also I don't wanna be around people.
And I actually like, it's concerning if I'm being totally honest. Cause I think like that is a, we like, that maybe is a covid thing. I feel like that is, um, the manifestation of something kind of unhealthy that's going on in our, in our culture about how, like, [00:38:00] we obviously are desperate for connection because we're humans and that's innate to us, but we've also become more socially anxious and we're also, like, everything's done online.
So like we don't get as much like in person stuff. And so it's uncomfortable to have to get up close and personal or like to make the effort because it's so much easier just to not do it. And that's like kind of a, a problem. But our whole society is set up so it's actually really easy to like still have your, your, your life that you can go through without ever really having to have, um, like a intimate.
exchange in person with a stranger or like with someone who maybe you don't know that well.
Kyley: Yeah. Well, but I think what's interesting is it actually feels pretty easy for me to have, uh, like, like I feel like I see strange, like I have like polite exchanges with strangers all the time, [00:39:00] right? Like, or even like, there's a coffee shop that I go to all the time and they know my name and I know like their names and they know my order.
And like, and somehow that actually just makes me feel, that makes the loneliness feel more acute. Cuz I'm like, like, um, uh, and I, I say loneliness, but I, it's not like this like aching, yawning thing. It's just like this quiet undercurrent, you know, of like hunger to be in community, in person with people that I really fucking love.
I think. I think I like, I don't, I don't want to do like surface level conversations. I don't need to always talk with spirituality. As a matter of fact, I can even hold conversations about other things
Eva: Yes. I can attest to that folks. I think,
Kyley: um, although it's, you
Eva: But also like why
Kyley: Yeah, right. Um, but like, maybe that's why it feels like [00:40:00] work is cause I feel like I don't wanna go, like, play nice.
I don't wanna go and like present the performative version of me. I wanna go and like, have intimate real conversations with people, but none of those people live close to me, or very few of those people live close to me. So then the, the effort is like, I gotta go make new in person intimate friendships, which that's the thing that feels
Eva: Yeah.
Kyley: you know?
Eva: I mean if that's what you're ex, you're so like, I think lo loneliness is a very interesting thing. Like I think loneliness is a really interesting topic and but. I won't even dive into it. I guess just based on your, your definition of how you described how you're feeling, like I would say I feel the exact same way, which is honestly why I was, It's like it pushed me into being like, okay, maybe let me really consider like intentional community, because I think what I'm trying to do is find a different [00:41:00] paradigm for society of like, is there a better way we can do it?
Can I, I like, I'm like, I'm serious about thinking about how can I learn about community building? Like that's how interested I am in this because I think it's a skill set and I think it's a problem that we have in our society that we're just all so, um, like, I don't wanna say we're like on an island.
It's weird. I don't know. It's weird. But anyway, there, there was a little bit of that like loneliness aspect and Yeah. Uh, I feel the same way. It's like I wanna have meaningful, rich in depth. Conversations that are also filled with like laughter and hilarity and like emotions and, and all of that stuff. Um, and I want it, here's the thing, I want it with a group of people.
So for me it's not even just like, cuz I actually have, That's the funny thing is I moved to Portland partly because I had friends here, two of my like really, really, really good friends live here and we hang out pretty regularly and like, yeah, my friend called me this [00:42:00] Sunday and was like, Hey, I'm gonna go go to the farmer's market by your house.
Like, do you wanna come with me? And like, you know, like, so, so I, I have that, but it's still, I think I long for something maybe even more different, which is like, and it could be because I don't have like kids and like that kind of like nuclear setup, but I'm also literally planning for my future. Like if I don't have kids, I've always thought, okay, but, so I wanna be in community with other people so that I think it's important that we have a system where we can like, take care of each other.
Kyley: right.
Eva: I'm going on a tangent, but also like
Kyley: a good tangent,
Eva: but if you have kids, that's the other thing is like, I don't actually think kids are meant to be raised by like two, like just the, your, like parents or your guardians. Like I want a system where if I'm part of a community, someone needs a babysitter, I can be like, Hey, like let's do this.
And also, I'm not taking care of five kids on my own. I have these other adults who are doing it with me. And you have like this like, I mean, just really ancient way or, or like way, you know, going back in the day of like how I, things, how I think things were done. So [00:43:00] like that's also what I'm like really craving because having my two friends close by is great, but it's not, it is really great.
And what I wanna say about that, and also it feels not complete enough I
Kyley: Yeah, yeah, yeah. It's interesting, this conversation is helping me figure out like even what the actual want is because, um, when you were talking about parenting, it was also just making me think about like, these huge stretches of time that I have with my kids where it's just the three of us, um, which I've, you know, ordered my whole life around that.
And also like kids are kind of dull sometimes, , do you know what I mean? Like, um,
Eva: Like it's by choice. Cuz like I remember you like, you know, I know that this was like a empowered decision that you made. You're like, I am so grateful that [00:44:00] it can like not work your corporate jobs, but that you can use your time the way that you want to.
Kyley: Absolutely. And, uh, it would be really fun if I had like a mom friend to go to the playground with at two o'clock on a Tuesday. Right. But, um, so anyways, I guess I'm, maybe I'm just being like very, Yeah. And so that's really, yeah, that's really interesting is like, um, there's a way that I think my want is like, like vague and broad and about this cultural moment of like, oh, wanting intimate in person connection.
And then there's this other actually very specific like, Oh, I want someone to talk to while I'm at the
playground, ,you know? Um, and I think,
Eva: interest.
Kyley: yeah, so. And just, I also think, you know what? I also think there's a way that good because I spend so much time with my kids and, you know, I also try to be [00:45:00] really intentional, giving them lots of space to like, do their thing.
That's like, one of my approaches to motherhood is like, okay, I'm gonna take us somewhere cool and then I'm gonna let you, like, like today we went to the beach and I was like, Just run around on the beach. Let's build something. I'll play a little bit, but also like, do your thing. Which means I have a lot of time to just be in my mind for all that.
I obviously try not to be in my mind, that's where I end up. Um, and there's, there's something about like just another person physically sitting next to you that I, I don't, I'm curious if this happens for you, but like there's just a way that it draws me out of me with greater ease. Like I'm less likely to get like, caught up in overthinking or.
Ruminating on something if I'm just physically with someone. Cool.
Eva: Oh of, of course, of course. So I mean, even going back to my anxiety days where I was truly just like an, [00:46:00] you know, I've talked about this before, like in my twenties, just an anxious ball, um, or a ball of anxiety. Um, it's cuz you're just in your own head so much. And sometimes like the best medicine and not always.
It's weird, right? It depends. Cause sometimes if you're really anxious, well, that's the thing. Sometimes if you're so anxious, you don't actually wanna be around anyone. But actually it's like the very thing that you need. But yeah, I, I just remember so many times where I just remember being saved by just like, yeah.
Getting out of my head because I was just talking to somebody else and not thinking about myself as.
Kyley: Yeah. Yeah. Cause it's not even like, thankfully, I'm not like a super anxious person most of the time, but it's like we just get fixated on
Eva: Mm-hmm.
Kyley: other people are really great distraction from our own bullshit
Eva: totally. Of course. It and it's like, it's not even like, Yeah. I mean, it's, I think it's huge medicine. It's not even [00:47:00] like, that kind of medicine is a medicine that makes me feel like, uh, you, you, you get to like, you forget what you were even worried about and you're like, Wait, what was I worried about?
Cause you realized that thing was not actually even really a problem. You know what I mean?
Kyley: Yes, absolutely. And I also think sometimes you start thinking about something. I mean, this is something I observe. Basically my, you know, my kids are super, they're at the playground, they're very content, they're doing their own thing. So I start thinking, cuz I'm kind of bored, right? And so I just, and, and whatever I pick to think about, you know, like our, that's what thinking of mine does.
It just, it's not very good at being chill
Eva: totally.
Kyley: Right? It looks for a problem to solve.
Eva: your thinking mine is there for survival, so it's always gonna be like, Okay, what needs to get figured out?
Kyley: Yeah. And so, and it, and so, uh, yeah, so then it just like tries to find a problem, but then it tries to solve. But like, there wasn't really a problem. And again, these aren't, like, this isn't causing like tremendous [00:48:00] distress, but it's like overall I would just, like my happiness would be elevated if, um, I basically wasn't doing
Eva: Yeah.
Kyley: Uh, and community feels like a. Like one of the ingredients that's less readily available, like in person community feels like, because I do have this really, really, really rich community of people who live far away. Like yourself, like Liz, like my friend Vanessa. And so I spend a lot of time on my phone,
Eva: Totally. Yep,
Kyley: which is its own
Eva: Same. Or, or even just like a lot of my friends from my all like, yeah, my, like I have good friends from every single place that I've lived, so la, New York, Philly, they're all, but like, they're all still, you know, in separate cities because I think that's also very common now in our modern ages.
Like people are just dispersed.
Kyley: Yeah, yeah,
Eva: So the question is what do we do about it?
Kyley: Yeah. I don't know.
Eva: Well, I have a couple ideas, or just like some thoughts [00:49:00] that aren't conclusive, but like, I'm not joking when I say that like, community building is something that I, like, I, I'm genuinely interested in and like, I just think that's where I'm headed
Kyley: Mm.
Eva: like, I've just been thinking, I just, again, like this is nothing to even do with me.
It's like looking at my parents and it's looking at like elderly people, like, you know what I mean? I think it's actually really. I don't know if you, if you can find like a great old folks home to live in, I think that can be like, really cool rather than like being isolated in your house when you're like 80 and that, and then you like die faster because loneliness is like a, you know, like a huge thing, um, for older people.
So I think I like, I can just like set the intention to actively like, learn more about what that looks like. I also think it is about like, we do what we do, which is like set the intention that like, hey, I wanna, cuz I wanna meet the perfect, um, compliment
Kyley: Mm.
Eva: to me, because the [00:50:00] crazy thing is, is that like there are 10 other women out there close by to you right now who like, aren't craving the same thing.
Kyley: Yeah.
Eva: Maybe even like a hundred. You know, like that's the thing that's also kind of like, I think really kind of just a, like a mind trip is that like, I, I, you know, I. There's so many other people out there craving the same thing, and then yet, yet we're not connecting.
Kyley: You know what I j okay. Can I respond to that? I feel like you have more wisdom, but I have to respond to that. Um, so I was noticing my physical reaction as you were saying that when you were like, there's 10 women and you live near you feeling the same way. And I instantly felt like constriction of like, I'm at capacity.
That was the. And so I wonder, we all are living these like kind of capitalist, hyper individualist, individualized lifestyles, right? And therefore are exhausted because we are singularly responsible for all of the [00:51:00] things and therefore are lonely and also feel at fucking capacity to go make a new friend.
Like, right, It's like, it's like the dog eating, chasing its tail or something, right? It's like I'm too overwhelmed, which again, I don't feel, actually feel overwhelmed. This doesn't feel like a, it's just like an observation, but like generally, like I'm at Mac's capacity because I don't have community, but I'm at capacity, so I don't wanna let, I don't wanna, I don't wanna like open up to figure out if I.
Eva: Yep. Okay. So I, well, first of all, thank you for sharing that because that speaks to also something that I, it's a, I think you're pointing out a story that I also am unconscious, unconsciously harboring. I didn't notice until you just said it, is that like, so, you know, I, I am going through some life shifts where, and recently I've been thinking like, okay, if I wanna like build community, I can do that.
And I've been telling myself, Okay, I [00:52:00] just need to get ready to, to effort. Like,
Kyley: Mm.
Eva: someone actually told me like a long time ago, I heard it somewhere. Yeah, I didn't, someone didn't tell me I heard it somewhere and then I internalized it that making friends or meeting new people is just a lot of energy output.
That's exactly what they said. They were like, it's an energy output thing, so it takes a lot of energy. And so I didn't even know that I was unconsciously assuming like, okay, like I was almost like shoring myself up almost like, like bawling my, my hands in a fist. Like, Okay, I can do it. I'm gonna go and like, make all this effort.
And, and with this I, with almost the misguided belief that like, that was me doing something noble. Cause I'm like, Oh, I'm willing to go and do the work and it's gonna have to be really, really, really hard work. But what you're pointing out is like, what if it didn't have to be hard work?
Kyley: Cause if I think of like, Sorry. Yeah, go ahead. Go ahead.
Eva: Um, just that like, cuz I, I do believe that if we, I, I'll speak for myself.
If I think it's hard work, it will be hard work. Like that's how I'm gonna go into it and that's like [00:53:00] the reality that I'm gonna create for myself. And hearing you talk about being at capacity made me. Well, what if we could call it in and it got to be super organic
Kyley: Also, if I think about like all of my closest friends, which like once someone's like in my inner circle, like, you know, people could say, This is in my astrology. Like, you're, once you're in, you're in. Right? Like, I am really ride or die. And.
Eva: I can attest that too. I, I definitely feel that way.
Kyley: Um, but like our, like the closeness of our friendship was an effort, right? It was like so fucking natural and organic. And if I think of, uh, if I go back through like all of my best friendships, some of them started with inten with great intensity, but it was the kind of intensity. It was like, Oh my God, new friend.
You're so cool. Right? But none of them were like
Eva: I can. Again, none of them, like we, I remember when we started this [00:54:00] podcast, we put conscious. I get effort into like meeting, setting aside time and meeting and planning and like, we prioritized it cause we were like, Hey, this is a cool project we wanna do, like, let's set it so some time. But it, but it felt fun.
Like it was fun and exciting and a little bit like, ooh, like it's kind of scary, but like in a good way the whole way through. So it never felt like efforting, which I feel like is a little bit different. This idea of like forced, or like efforting makes me feel like what you were saying about your body and feeling constricted into being at capacity.
It makes me feel like I need to go beyond my capacity in order to make something work. Whereas, you know, you like meet the right person and you, you know, like you've talked about, um, Desi's teacher, and I don't know if you guys will be bff, but you know, like you've seem like you just really get along and you have these like, nice conversations and it's just, it's, you know, you meet someone who you naturally just kind of click with and then it gets to be fun.
Kyley: Yeah, and it's [00:55:00] interesting thinking about. Going back to the third place thing. I think that's the thing that's tricky. If there's, if you don't really have third place and you don't go to an office, where do you meet these people? And you don't, and you just, and then you do everything online, like where do you meet people?
Right? So like the, there is effort, like some level of effort does feel like, okay, go. You have to like, go out into the world. Which to your point earlier maybe like that, that might actually feel like tremendous effort. Um, but also it's interesting. Yeah, I'm just like watching my, like I'm, I'm watching something happening in my chest as we're having this conversation.
So things are shifting. So like you'll know next week when I find my next inference , you know, bestie. But, um, but I think it is really interesting to think. Okay, what if I let it, what if I, again, like, yeah, like guide, be guided by my intention. What if [00:56:00] I acknowledge the Desi desire and then let it exist?
Which also for me, you know, shadow work stuff, like acknowledging the desire for me actually came first from recognizing like, Oh, I feel lone. That's the, this feeling is loneliness. Oh, okay. And then what is the desire, the desires for this community? And then fine tuning what the desi like fine tuning what that actually means and looks like, which its conversation's really helpful about.
And then like trusting that the like intentions been set and the order will be fulfilled. Know
Eva: Yeah.
Kyley: potentially though, again, cuz I can feel all of this, like, it feels like there's like gunk in my ch in my chest right now that I'm like, Oh, the order fulfillment might, there might be a little, there might be some unlearning that I walk myself through.
Because I can actually like basically feel some physical resistance to like intimacy that's not too close, right? Like [00:57:00] if we look at this from a lens of like kind of subconscious creation, how delicious that I've created a really intense, supportive network of emotional relationships that are all also far away that allowed me to disappear at a moment's notice, right?
Like that's just an interesting observation.
Eva: Well that's actually, that's really interesting cause I was actually just about to say I don't, Okay. I don't know if this is gonna be, Well, we'll see where this goes. I dunno if it'll be helpful or not. Because I was gonna say like you are actually one of the most. Mm. I dunno if social is the right word, but like, I feel like you're really good at making friends.
So, And I, and I think I've said this to you before, right? Like, I think you have a natural way, or, or actually I think I asked you earlier on like, I don't know if it was natural or intentional. I think you said it was like intentional. Like you wanted, you came into this space when, you know, you started working for yourself and you really wanted to meet people, and I think you're really good at that.
And I guess what I wanted, so I guess what you're speaking to is like, but [00:58:00] that was all online. And I, Is that the thing that like, it's easier online, but if there's something about it being in person that makes it more,
Kyley: in any other aspect of my life, I've also, yeah, it is funny if you told 16 year old Kylie this, she would not believe it as true. But I do actually think that making friends is pretty easy for me, Um, which I feel very grateful for. Um, but I think, and so like, wherever I've worked, like grad school, like, it was just always easy for me to have like a group of people who were my people.
Um, but I can see now, like I've just, I've clearly created something where it's like close enough, close at the same time. Um,
Eva: so, but I'm curious about what, what are you saying? There's something about in Personness that feels a little bit easy, like more difficult for you, Like it's easier when people are online. You can kind of like, like you said, disappear whenever you want to. Are you saying there's something that's a little bit more intimidating or seemingly demanding about an in
Kyley: it's a subconscious, like, I don't think I can fully name it, but I [00:59:00] can, like, since you're real time coaching me, I can like feel it like revealing itself, you know, like, like there's some, there is definitely, um, yeah, like I can, cuz even as I'm like, Oh yeah, I, like, I do believe, I, I ha I am, I do make friends with ease and, uh, I'm, I am like a great creator so I can just go create in-person friends.
Like I can set that out and set that attention and then I can immediately feel my body being like, No, we can't. We don't want that. We don't want that. We don't want that. Even as I literally came outta the podcast to be like, Oh, well friends, so that's fa. Kind of, this is fa, I'm like watching this on Furling my body real time.
This is really cool.
Eva: Yeah. That's interesting. And it's also interesting for me too, because. Yeah, it's so interesting cuz I also say that I want community. And when I say community, like I'm really thinking, like I see, yeah. I just see like, I don't [01:00:00] know, it's not just one or two people. It's like a, a group of friends who all kind of know each other or like, uh, maybe just about to be friends.
It can be all different ages, you know? I think there's actually so much value to having young people connecting with older people. I think that's like really important. But, um, I think I have this unconscious belief that's like, ugh, it's gonna be so much fucking hard work. And even though I'm saying I want it, I already like, feel overwhelmed.
Like, I don't wanna do it because it's just too hard.
Kyley: That's basically exactly what I'm experiencing. Yeah. Yeah.
Eva: that's really fucking interesting. And that makes me sad because if I, the longer I hold onto that belief and I'm just, I'm actually just realizing now that I've been holding onto that belief for a long time, actually, like that's already my belief. It makes me sad because it makes me feel like I'm never gonna get what I want.
Kyley: Um,
Eva: makes me feel like, oh, okay, well then it's impossible because if it's gonna be like, either I have to just like, like [01:01:00] hustle my way into community, which it will inevitably burn me out because that's the, that's like the only way how I, you know, like that's the, that's an old story of how like that's the way that I do things or I get so, um, of getting burned out that I'm like, well, I guess I just can't really do it cuz I don't, Like you said I'm at capacity.
Kyley: uh, although do you witnessing your sadness, Love it. Iow, um, do, does this, does the realization that this has been the operating system does feel. Like, I guess for me, I don't in this moment feel sad. I actually feel really like amped cuz I'm like, oh I see, like, I, like, I don't fully understand it yet, but I can see where the like tension is.
And so now that I've started to see it, I'll just get more clarity until it's gone. So I'm actually feeling [01:02:00] like a space showing up, like somehow seeing the problem is making me feel better about the
Eva: Right? Of course. Because, and you know, anything, the way to solve a problem is to bring it from the unconscious to the conscious level.
Kyley: yeah, yeah, yeah.
Eva: Um, I, I sense that there was a question in there though, right? I think you were talking about my sadness.
Kyley: yeah, I guess I was, I was curious to know, I guess more like the, the, like the more the flavor of your sadness, like, does it feel, cuz it felt a little like what you're speaking to was like this despair of like, oh, well I guess that I'm stuck here, like in this catch 22 situation and.
Eva: So I think. For me, I feel, so, I feel I am having a similar experience, like noticing that sadness actually is actually really helpful for me and that belief because I'm like, oh, like there, there's something there for me I think to just like be with and like have let myself, I think there's a story of like maybe, I don't know if I, I don't know exactly what the story is, but I wouldn't be [01:03:00] surprised if it was something like, Oh, you can't have what you want.
Something like that. Right. So I think I'd like wanna be with that for a little bit and just like let myself fall into that. But what is also very helpful and I know is kind of already what's on the other side is like, oh, it doesn't have to be hard. Like I can already start, I can see essentially what was making it difficult was my belief that it had to be this uphill like, uh, slog.
And I know that sounds, No, it doesn't sound bananas. I mean this is like, I guess very 1 0 1, but like it is so true. Like if I go into a situation and I believe. that if I, I don't have a, I don't have a story that's gonna be hard or, and I'm really open to just like, I don't, openness feels like really a big word here.
It's like just letting it flow and like being open to opportunity and connection or blah, blah, blah or whatever. That, that is the very thing that allows it to happen.
Kyley: Yeah. Yeah. And, [01:04:00] uh, I mean, I also, I just wanna also commend you because I feel like, uh, so we, we've talked about the being crazy thing and you just started to like say like, I know it sounds crazy, and then you backed off and we're like, No, it doesn't sound crazy. This is true. that. Different topic, different podcast episode, but like that actually feels like a really big moment just there where you like started to do the, Maybe it sounds crazy, like no, fuck no,
Eva: Yeah. Well, yeah, I don't, Yeah, I guess it was easy for me to say this, that, that part because like, this is essentially, uh, like. I don't even know how to explain, Explain it that this is basic spirituality to me. Like it's like it is coming back to ground zero of like, we create shit with our mind every day,
Kyley: Yeah, yeah. Yeah. I think it's interesting too, I'm like, cuz like watching this like plant un unfairly in my chest and I'm realizing it's tied to this very old story about overgiving, like why does it feel [01:05:00] effortful? Because it will, it will require with me to overgive, which is really fascinating because I think that's like the, one of the big things that I have been unlearning in all sorts of other aspects of my life over the past couple of years.
So, I wanna say cute, which is like a weird word, but it's almost cute cuz it's like, oh it's you again. Hey pal.
Eva: I mean, that's a good thing. Like whenever we can get to a place where we see something in it's cute or it's funny and we can laugh at it, I think that just means, you know, we're not, so, we haven't fallen so deep into the story and like
Kyley: Yeah, right. Cuz right? It's like, if I could, if I could unlearn overgiving as a means to prove my work in worth, you know, I can fucking figure it out with, Right. And with like, making a new friend, right? Like, okay, we've, you know, um, so that feel, just because that was such a, like, there were all these other places where that story was so deep and I'm like, Oh, this is like, this is a cute little one.
This doesn't have super deep roots. I've already, [01:06:00] I've already done that part
Eva: Mm-hmm. . Yeah, exactly. I hear you. I hear you. Yeah. I mean, to be hon again, I will say I'm really glad we're having this conversation because I think I, Yeah. My clients have talked about this too, just like this idea of being lonely. But the ver But I think the reason people don't want to go out and make an effort is exactly.
Okay. Well I'd be curious for you listeners, if there are things here that we ha like that maybe you feel in a different way or you're, you kind of agree, but you experience in a different way. But what I have heard people say is like, Yeah, we want the closeness, but it just feels overwhelming. It feels like too much work.
Or like some version of that, or I'm at capacity or I'm already, Yeah. Like world feels fucking chaotic and life is busy and I tend to like overgive. Or what about what? I'm not good with boundaries. Like whatever your story is,
Kyley: Mm.
Eva: I think it's just an invitation to look at that and see that like, Yeah, if there's, I feel like if there's some type of tension there, it means that it's not [01:07:00] true.
Like we're, there's a falsehood there.
Kyley: Yeah. And what does it look like to, like, what does it look like to invite in the possibility that community could show up with ease?
Eva: Mm-hmm.
Kyley: That feels like a really interesting inquiry.
Eva: Yeah, I love that. Yeah. And or, or, I think another story that, um, I don't know that I'll put, I'll share about myself is like, I think sometimes, I don't know, I think I get, I'm confused about who I am now if I'm being totally honest, because I was a very social person, like all, you know, in my adolescence all the way through college.
Yeah. Actually all the way through New York , like Miss Social. And I think, you know that I told you the reason I got outta New York was because I was so burned out and, you know, people knew me as a person who was always one thing to the next, like hanging out with some person or [01:08:00] having going to some show or blah, blah, blah, blah, blah.
And then I got to Taiwan and I was like, No fucking more. I was like, Nuh, like, totally changed my life and became more of an introvert and then like Covid happened. And so I think. I'm just trying to work out the story of like, I think I'm a social person, but maybe I'm different now. Maybe there's a fear there of like, if I put myself out there, what if I don't get anything back in return?
I think that's another, just like if we're talking about unpacking stories, that's another one that's also sitting there for me, this idea of like, um, one of them could be like, what if it was hard? And the other one is just like, what if I'm just fucking awkward ? Like that's really the story. Like what if I'm just a freaking weirdo?
Like I think I'm social because I relate to my like younger self, but also maybe I'm just total weirdo now and I don't even know it.
Kyley: I mean if you're a total weirdo, you're my kind of weirdo, I'm [01:09:00] biased, but I think you are extremely cool to hang out
Eva: Yeah. Well, I hope so. Anyway, but, but I do think, like, what I'm getting at is it's really good to just like unpack all these stories and look at all the, the weight that you're kind of carrying around. That's honestly, most of the time, doesn't hold any, has no legs, you know?
Kyley: and I feel like now once we like landed on, once we, like once the ship ran around on it feels like effort now it's like clarity is popping in left and right. Like I love that. We're basically just ping ponging back and forth of like, Oh, and now seeing, cuz I'm also seeing. . You know, we've been in this town for five years, Oh no.
Six years. And both of us, both of us are like, Well, this is where we're gonna end up. This isn't like our town town. Um, and so I can also feel that I have prob, I, I can feel that I have been resistant to like build a rich community cuz I'm like, I'm, I'm not staying here.
Eva: Yeah.
Kyley: I [01:10:00] stay here, like if I, right, if I build this really rich community, will I wanna then stay here?
I don't wanna stay here.
Eva: yeah,
Kyley: Right. Um, and so that, I think at that, that feels like
Eva: Totally
Kyley: that one, that one. The other one felt cute. That one feels
Eva: trickier. Yeah, and I know that one too. That's the same way when I felt in Arizona, like I lived in Arizona, never meant to live in Arizona because I didn't think I was, I didn't think I was like, it surprisingly fell in love with it. But the whole time I didn't really make that much of an effort because I was, I was always had one foot out the door essentially.
Which is kind of what you're saying. So it's tricky cuz you're kind of like, Yeah, do I wanna make the effort if I know I'm not staying or ? Yeah. Or is this, like you said, if I end up
Kyley: I basically end up tricking myself into staying here because I made friends
Eva: Yeah.
Kyley: which is fascinating cuz also I can see like whenever you surrender into, right? Like [01:11:00] that's the irony. I wouldn't be surprised if I, like, I wouldn't be surprised if I like fell into whatever that story is and like built this really beautiful, vibrant community here.
And that was the moment that it was like, great, here you go. Here's the, here's the exit door. You know?
Eva: Yeah.
Kyley: Should I wanna take it? Hmm.
Eva: Yeah.
Kyley: Interesting.
Eva: But you know what it's also interesting is like, I don't know, people amaze me. I know a lot of people who are really good at just like making friends, even though they're just, they know they're trans, trans transitory. Like they're only there temporarily,
Kyley: Yeah.
Eva: too.
They're like,
Kyley: Yeah. I've had, I've had so many of those too that I really love. Like, like you're like coworker, like your work bestie, that you're like, you both know that when it, when like when I've had this, what happened before where like someone's getting a new job and you're like, We're gonna be, we're gonna, you're stuck with me.
And everybody knows like, it was this like really beautiful, authentic, true friendship, uh, that was also born out of convenience. Right. And so, um, I think I love those like, I think [01:12:00] so fondly of those people, even though like I've totally lost touch with them, but I think I'm hungry for something different here.
Eva: Yeah.
Kyley: Yeah.
Eva: Well, this has been a very enlightening conversation though, I have to say. Like, I didn't know that I was like, carrying around all this stuff that was so happy. You helped me unpack because it would've just made it so much harder for me to, uh, reach my like goal of wanting to have like, community
Kyley: Yeah, I feel like,
Eva: this vision.
Yeah.
Kyley: I feel like, uh, somehow this feels like a moment that turns into you teaching a class flow style, but about community
Eva: Yeah. I mean,
Kyley: coming to a podcast episode one year from now, Eva teaches us
Eva: Or hope. I mean, we should probably, listeners, dear listeners, if you know of anyone I, who is, you know, well versed in community or has really u unique ideas on community, please let us know. Um, oftentimes the recommendations that we [01:13:00] get from listeners about who we should have on the show are like always really, really great.
Kyley: Also, I lokey hate that because Will my mentor who died almost last year, that was like his whole, um, was, his whole thing was community and connection.
Eva: yeah. And I think
Kyley: Still mad at you for being dead
Eva: Aww, my God.
Kyley: I've been solely in that phase of grief. Like, you know how they say like grief, you just like you're in different VAs with him.
But lately I've just been like, Oh fucker. I really have a lot of questions I would like to ask you.
Eva: Yeah, I could really use you right now. Yeah.
Kyley: Yeah. So,
Eva: Um, I mean, I'm mad too because that's a fucking, a really important skill set, I think. And I think we could have used his vision
Kyley: yeah,
Eva: Um, but I'm not, I mean, I don't know if I would ever teach about it, but I do feel like this is an important social issue.
Kyley: yeah,
Eva: this is a really important, not just social issue, like, well, like human wellbeing issue.
Kyley: yeah. [01:14:00] And I think also does feel particular to this moment in time, right, Where we all just spent, you know, two plus years, like hunkered down, super isolated and now like. There's, there's a lot to process about community and what it means and what we want from it. And so I think it's like a broader cultural thing that's also unique to this moment. Yeah. Yeah,
Eva: Right. Well, if listeners you have any other ideas, you like, wanna shoot our way, like DM us?
Kyley: I'm, I made a salty comment, but I actually would love to learn from more people about this topic, so ignore my salty comment and send
Eva: No, we welcome Salty comments and recommendations.
Kyley: Yes. That, that's, that's actually the more accurate statement.
Eva: Okay.
Kyley: Should we do joy?
Eva: Um, do you want,
Kyley: Okay. Good.
Eva: uh, what's something that's bringing you Joy, my friend?
Kyley: Um,[01:15:00]
Eva: Unexpected. Please say more.
Kyley: Yeah, I did. I have been a holdout for a long time. I was like, No way. No way, no way. Then I briefly downloaded the app coup like, like a year ago and then quickly fell out an ADHD hypertensive spiral and like stayed up until 2:00 AM two nights in around when I was like, Nope, and didn't deleted the app.
But then I just, a couple of different nudges all coming in at the same time that were like, If you wanna grow an audience, it's the best platform for it, right? Because the algorithm of TikTok is like pushes you out to new content in a way that Facebook and Instagram like don't. So I was like, Okay, you know what?
I'll just give it a shot first case, you know? I hate it. You guys need so much fun. I'm having like a stupid, I haven't had fun on social media for my business, maybe. Like [01:16:00] very limited times. If I had genuine, like do I enjoy writing for social media? Absolutely. I wouldn't do it if I didn't like it, but like I am just having a stupid amount of fun.
It's just making me laugh. I give these salty Ted talks about like, I get on a soapbox and I like record six. I have a whole series of being like, feminine business energetics are toxic. Come at
Eva: mean, you have been creating some fire shit. I've been seeing you coming out with the fire, so that
Kyley: Thank you. I don't know why I, Something about the platform is making me feel like, Yeah. I'm just like, I'm just being fiery and pissy and it's so much fun
Eva: Yeah. I love it. I, I mean, I don't love, I don't know about TikTok, but I love the energy of your, of your TikTok tox.
Kyley: Thank you, thank you, thank you. Yeah. And on also like I've had like 250 new followers in 10 days,
Eva: Yeah.
Kyley: which like, you know, It's just, it's, it, it, you know, it's not [01:17:00] even just like the numbers, like people are actually on, like, on the other platforms. For me, in this moment, people are writing like really interesting comments and I'm having like, actual dialogue with people and I think part of it's probably cuz I'm showing up being like, Hey, I got a fucking hot take.
Here we go. So I'm, I'm showing up in a particular kind of way, but yeah, I'm having like real dialogue that seems really fun and interesting and, uh, someone messaged me today, someone message me
Eva: probably not, that's not happening on like Instagram and stuff. Yeah.
Kyley: Yeah. And so someone messaged me today and was like, I just really love your content. It's so powerful. And I was like, well every other social media platform is dead to me now because I got a really nice compliment here.
So suck at Instagram
Eva: Love it, love it, love it. All right, so how do people follow you on TikTok?
Kyley: So my TikTok handle, which, oh, I should start putting in the show notes, is, uh, Shadow Work underscore
Eva: Oh, love it.
Kyley: Thank you. Cause apparently for TikTok, you're not supposed to just use your name. You're supposed to like [01:18:00] make it cool. I don't know, it's what I'm being told as a geriatric millennial, I'm just doing what I'm told. So shadow work underscore which, um, or you can take out the show notes, but yeah, it's super fun. It turns out I love TikTok.
Eva: I love it when like, you can jump on the band bandwagon of something in a sovereign way though. You know, like,
Kyley: Yeah,
Eva: do you know what I mean? Like, it's not like, uh, I don't think social media is bad. I think it's shitty if you're forcing yourself to do it or if then you're like resisting doing it cuz you're like rebelling it against it.
Like there is also just true, um, neutrality or enjoyment and that's, I think that's a good place to be. Mm-hmm.
Kyley: I didn't really realize that I was missing this much like joy and play in making content. So again, because I do enjoy the long form writing stuff and um, so yeah,
Eva: Good. I mean, sometimes, yeah. You know, I have mixed feelings about social media, but sometimes I actually no. A lot of times, well, if I'm creating something it's [01:19:00] usually because I'm having fun. Otherwise I'm like, you'll see a lot of silence from me. . Yeah.
Kyley: Okay. All right, my friend. What's bringing you joy?
Eva: Okay. So I gave it some thought and I realized for the first time I think in Hello, hello Universe history. not feeling anything coming up for me. Like that's really big and huge, which I think is like important. To say it's actually kind of interesting to me. I didn't actually notice, I don't actually feel like my days are like joyless, but really when I think about it, like I feel like I'm just kind of, I don't know, going through a phase of some really, really, really deep shedding and transition and yeah, I think it feels okay to just say right now there's like nothing, usually something that kind of pops up into my mind
Kyley: yeah.
Eva: that's like really like clear and right now that's not coming to me.
Kyley: Well, thank you for being so real. I feel like you [01:20:00] just gave a whole bunch of people permission.
Eva: Yeah. Well, thanks. It's also I, I like it's, yeah, it's interesting. Like I'm not judging that as good or bad, and I think it's kinda like letting it be what it is.
Kyley: Yeah. I love that.
Eva: Yeah. And now that I've like given myself permission to say that, who knows? Maybe you'll, that'll be my answer more
Kyley: Five minutes from now you'll be like, Oh,
Eva: Yeah.
Kyley: yeah.
Eva: All right. Um, anything else for our listeners before we go?
Kyley: Uh, we love you. You're the
Eva: Yeah.
Kyley: Um, oh, our whole scheme for season three is that Kylie and Neva get on awesome podcasts and help grow the show. So tell us the shows you love listening to because we're on the hunt. Um, we're in the process of inviting ourselves on all sorts of cool shows, and we would love to know what you're listening to that you enjoy, and we can, uh, try to get ourselves connected with those
Eva: Oh my God, that'd be so much fun. Yeah. If there was like a favorite host that you guys love that you listen to and you'd be like, it would be fun to see us [01:21:00] connect. Uh, yeah, let us know.
Kyley: let us know.
Eva: Okay. We love you.
Kyley: I