This week one of Kyley's dearest friends, Ellen Polishuk, joins the show, and we bob and weave through discussions of connection, vulnerability, friendship--and plants!
This week one of Kyley's dearest friends, Ellen Polishuk, joins the show, and we bob and weave through discussions of connection, vulnerability, friendship--and plants!
Ellen
planttoprofit.com
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Kyley's Instagram: @kyleycaldwell
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HU- Ellen Polishuk
[00:00:00] Welcome my beautiful friend Ellen to the show. Wow. I'm so excited to be here. Okay, so we're gonna jump in. You know the drill because you listened to the show. What is life teaching you right now?
Yeah, well, I knew it was coming, so I've been thinking about it. Probably since I agreed to be on the show.
And then I thought about it every day this week. And then I thought about it a lot this morning 'cause I wanted it to be so good, you know? So, yeah. The pressure's on Only take Yeah. Perfect answer
to this question.
So I think I've got it. [00:01:00] So I had a a and there's a longer story that maybe we'll go into or maybe not, but the, the moral of the story or what's life is teaching me right now is the power of acceptance to leverage change.
Okay. You gotta get, you gotta break that down for us. I
know it sounds so fancy, doesn't it? Right? Like, somebody thought about this. Okay, so here's the story. And this is a hair story, which is pretty funny since I'm not really like a hair kind of girl. Um, so I went, I've cut my hair all off a year ago, as you may remember.
And so I've been going to the haircut store, you know, as often as they. Not as often did the salon, the haircut store. That's why
take forever. Okay. Continue.
Yes. And so anyway, I've been going to this same lady, um, half an hour away. So I went this time and I'd kind of like gotten myself built up that I was gonna be more demanding and more [00:02:00] like, I don't like this and I don't like this, and can you work with that?
Right? Like, I don't like the way it's fluffy around my ears and I don't like the way this thing is at the top of my head and you aren't paying attention to my cowlick and like it's just not working right, is what I was like jazzed up to do. And so I went in and I did that and she just. She like ed the shit outta me for about 20 minutes before any hair was actually cut.
And we went back and forth and she just kept saying, well, are you, you know, we, we can do all kinds of things about that, but you're gonna have to do something like, and I was like, what do you mean? And she's like, well you're gonna need to use product or yeah, you're gonna have to make an, you're gonna have to make an effort.
Yeah you're gonna have to upkeep, apply heat. And I was [00:03:00] like, well I don't wanna do that. And she was like, well then this is what your hair is. 'cause I just washed it that morning and it looked the fuzzy, not great way that it is. And she's like, so this is what your hair is. And I was like, but if I tell you all these things about it isn't, can't you like work with that and like make it different?
And she said, no. I was like, so you're saying that I should just, should I just go to a barber shop? And she's like, sure. And I'm starting to get hot, like literally hot and upset. And I'm thinking, I'm sitting in that fucking chair thinking, I think I'm just gonna walk outta here. Like, this lady is not gonna cut my hair.
She is not singing my song, and I think I'm just gonna leave. Mm-hmm. And then she, she was [00:04:00] so good. She was so good. She explained to me how hair works, right? I'm 61 years old. I don't know shit about beauty stuff, right? I know what beautiful is in my world, but I don't know about the beauty industry. She was talking to me about hair, and you gotta train it.
She said, you've been training your hair to look the way it is. If you want it to look different, you have to train it to look different. I was like, what? I know
that's a, that's a mind blowing
concept when it,
when you first hear about it, you're like, what do I have to do?
Right? But then she, you know, she was so patient and firm, like she wasn't gonna to give me any ground.
She just kept her position. But she kept offering me more information and making examples. She's like, remember when you would put your hair up on the top of your head? If you left it there for three days, when you take it down your follicle, say, woo. That feels like a stretch. And she taught me all [00:05:00] about hair.
And then she said. Would, what's getting in the way? I think she didn't probably really say it this way, but this is will wise speak. What's getting in the way of you using product? And so it was finally, right then is like she opened this exit, this door to possibility for me. And I said, I don't like the smell and I don't like crispy.
She said, oh, well we can deal with that. And so then it's like everything was reset and then me and her were on an adventure where I gave, I was game to be taught and take part in teaching my hair how to be the way I want it to look. And so this is day three, the second day of me trying to make my hair training of training, you know?
And she just would not, she was so [00:06:00] persistent and kind. It was just beautiful.
Mm-hmm.
And I had to accept that this is what my hair is gonna do unless I do something different.
Okay. I love this story so much. I love it because I know our listeners are just getting to know you. But yeah, if, if someone told me that when you came on the show, you would give us a five minute story about at the hair salon or the hair cutting store, I would not expect that. Right? No, but, but I also, there's a couple things that I love about this as a little anecdote that have also actually been kind of alive for me too.
So I'm appreciating selfishly that, but one is you gotta accept what is right, which is like, this is what my hair does, so I can't pretend it will just, I'll wake up tomorrow. It'll be different. And also, um, the accountability piece, that's like, if you want something to be different, big or small. You are the one who makes it happen.[00:07:00]
And um, I'm just gonna, I'm just gonna share my own personal thing back, which is, as you both know, I will be 40 in a month and I have feelings about that, that are confusing. Alan and I were lucky enough to have lunch last week and I was saying I don't know what they are. Like they're just there, but they're like under the surface and slippery and I haven't quite figured out exactly what they are.
Yeah, they'll review themselves and they're start, I've been asking them too, and they're like, are you sure? Uh, they include things like, you will die. You know, like they're, they're, yep. But, but one, one part of it is this, you know, when you're like 22, the whole world's in front of you, but you also can just assume that things that you want will happen.
When you have like endless infinite time, there's a way, at least for me, I think I just was like, yeah, yeah. Like, I wanna be somebody who works out, so it'll just happen one day. Right. Uhhuh. Um, and, and [00:08:00] there's something about, for some reason there's something about turning 40 that's putting its pressure that, that's putting its thumb down on the place.
That's like to the point of your hair. Like if you want your hair or your wardrobe or your heart or your life or the red daily rhythms of your life to look different than they look now that's on you. Are you doing that? Right? You know? Um, and uh, that's a little, it feels, I don't, I don't love the shape of that class.
Wait, wait, hold on. I'm so curious. Wait. Yeah. Is it that, do you, I understand what you mean, but we're younger. I feel like there's this idea of the promise of tomorrow. You know what I mean? Like I have all the time in the world to figure it out. It'll figure itself out. Maybe even Yes, but right. So if you're like, it's on you, had you not previously felt that way or does it feel like, well, that's what's interesting, right?
Like, I don't think, and I think exactly, I think similar to you, like I'm not really a, like, shrinking violet about like, you know, go do the thing. Right. You know, we have a lot of
agency already.
Yeah. [00:09:00] And yet I'm just seeing all these, all these, I feel like I'm seeing all these places that's like, you thought you were doing a good job at this, but have you thought about, and then there's just feels like, like the paper that like the, the, the scroll that rolls and then it like, keeps rolling.
Like all of these things that, some of which might not actually be important to you and you can just cross 'em off the list. But other things that are, have been sitting on that list for a long time was supposedly important. And not the time is running out as in like, um, it, it's not, the time is running out like.
Like, hurry up, scarcity. It's just like the, the, the acceptance piece of like, if you don't act on these things, they won't act on themselves for you on your behalf. Right. So how important that, it's like how important are they? And if they're actually important, what are you gonna do about it? Like, like Yeah.
Giddy up. Yeah. Yeah. So like the hair, right? The part of what I liked about the story was that she was saying [00:10:00] like, you can, you can go to the barbershop, right? Like, you don't have to, you don't have to make your hair look a certain way. You could, you could leave. You could leave it. Exactly. You get stay here to get it cut and leave it exactly as it is, which will be like a cute little fuzzy situation.
But if you want it to be different that you, that's on you.
Yeah. Yeah. You gotta figure out the moose. And then what was so helpful about some good coaching is like, well, what's getting in the way of you using moose? Yes. Yeah. Yeah. And you're like, oh, I just never really, I didn't, and then you realize there's, maybe there's a solution for that.
Yep. It's, it was such a, such a opportunity revelation. And it's, yeah, and it's, and it's, yeah, it, like who really cares about hair? Like actually we do care about our hair many ways. Oh, I care about my hair a whole lot. It's such a, well, your hair is gorgeous. Um, it's such a great example. You know, and just like you were saying, Kylie, like my other lesson, like the main thing I've been learning is to let go, let go, let go.
'cause I'm a [00:11:00] doer, man. I'm a doer, A fixer, a seeker, a go-getter. And then here's this hair thing where I'm just like, can it just, and of course I could decide after I try this that like, okay, fuzzy is cool. Like I can, I can accept it this and enjoy it and just be with it. Um, anyway, it's just such a great lesson for me.
Can I ask
you a question? Mm-hmm. What is, um. On my podcast where I invited you to be asked to poke, to broaden with questions. Um, what, what's the intersection between, so in some ways you're kind of speaking to a kind of accountability and a leaning in to claim the things that you want. And then on the other hand, you're speaking to how life has also been in a big picture way showing you let go, let go, let go.
What's the intersection between those two?
Like, are they the
Yeah, they might even be the same actually, [00:12:00] because the letting go in my case is letting go of expectations about others.
Mm.
Or it's almost the same thing, like keep, I keep looking outward for, for fixes, for, for energy for. Compassion for companionship, for love, and that can, that I have so much seeking energy and like drive that it can actually scare, you know what, you know what I mean?
Like, scare everybody away or, or scare the possibility away. Um, and so maybe this is the same thing. I wanted her to fix it for me, like do my hair and make it better. Mm-hmm. And she's like, no, can't just do it with a magic wand. Mm-hmm. [00:13:00] And I have to be the WI have to be engaged in my own care.
Yeah.
More directly.
Does that make sense? I think they're the same fucking thing. And I didn't even know that
until you asked me. I actually have some perspective on that, that I've discovered through my meditation, which I think might be helpful. Is that I definitely agree. They're they're the same at the end of the day.
They're the same. They, yeah. I think acceptance and letting go are both like a type of medicine that we get try to implement to get to the same place, which is like peace. Yeah. But I have found that letting go is more about when I'm really attached to something and I, I like want something to have to be something some way.
And you know, you're talking about that and your energy, Ellen, which I can relate to. I can be like just really, ugh, like intense about things and I want things to be a certain way. And I have found that if I'm resisting reality in those moments, 'cause they can't be that way in that moment, then, then for me it's about letting go.
But I think when I'm attached to something, but I guess accept or acceptance for me is like when I really don't [00:14:00] want something to be a certain way. I don't want it to be away and I'm I'm, and I'm avoiding something, I'm pushing it away. That's when. The energy of acceptance comes in, which is like, they're so similar, you know, acceptance and letting go.
They're like two sides of the same coin. But I think they can be applied in different ways given what the suffering is. Depending on what the suffering is.
That's good. I really love this idea of like acceptance and letting go as sisters.
And the other thing that I'm thinking about is like leaning in and how when we lean in. Without acceptance or letting go. That's when we get that seeking energy that you're talking about. That's when we're like, right, we're we're leaning in, but it's like a chasing. Mm-hmm. But when we've done that acceptance, letting go dance and we lean in, it feels to me like, like a claiming and an allowing, right?
Mm-hmm.
The difference between acceptance and letting go. So, acceptance. I have allowing what [00:15:00] is to be what we don't instead of pushing it away.
Yeah. What we resisting and when we're resisting something. I think acceptance is about accepting whatever it is, what we're resisting.
And I think letting go is about letting go of whatever we're, uh, like attached to. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, again, and they, again, they're also very similar though. It's like, I don't, like if someone that I love dies, I, it's not a letting go. It's an acceptance of like, well, fuck, I fucking hate this. But at some point it is.
Yeah. Comes from acceptance. Yeah.
Something like that took me such a long time, like I was so old and this is the part that maybe helps you as a person getting to be 40. Like I don't think I even understood that acceptance is not the same as condoning or agreeing like, oh, acceptance. I always was like, for 45 years I was like, [00:16:00] acceptance is like, yeah, but it's not.
It's just like, mm-hmm. Yeah. That is so, yes, and maybe I don't like it, but it's still so,
yeah. And accepting and like being with, I fucking hate this. This is, and I, I hate it. And I hate it.
Yeah. Mm-hmm. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. That's a big one. We think that it's like, oh, if I accept it means I'm like a wet noodle or I'm like flopping over like a fish that I'm just completely giving up.
And even if. I've understood that intellectually for a long time, but even though I understand it intellectually, there's still times where I, I guess maybe I would say energetically, I don't know how else to describe it, but like I still find myself not accepting or, you know, having a lot of resistance because in my body I'm still thinking, but if I actually accept this, then it means that I'm saying yes to something that I don't believe in.
And so it's like the I I've confined, there's still a dissonance or there's still a path for me to walk between [00:17:00] knowing it intellectually and then also knowing it in my body. Yeah.
Yeah. Well, and I had an interesting moment the other day where I, I put something on the internet about the state of the world and you know, the, trying to thread the line right between, maybe thread the line is right word, but like my heartbreaking for what's happening in the world in America right now.
And also. Asking myself to like step up to the plate, whatever, whatever that looks like. And someone made this comment. I used the a line in the post that said something like, you know, the, I called talk about the world being on fire. And someone made a comment was like, well, isn't the point to be unbothered or to like, not take it personally and, you know, can I really do like, and she was asking Christa like, the eye was, you know, can I, you know, help people as deeply as I can if I'm all like wrapped up?
And I so fucking mad [00:18:00] because I was like, no, our job is to be bothered. Like you can't just skip and pretend that shit isn't happening and then call that like spiritual path. I mean, you can do whatever you want, but it's a bullshit one, like you're lying. Um. Because it reeks to me of like, not acceptance, right.
Or, or like a performative acceptance, which is like, I see it, but then I, but I don't feel it. Or I pretend it's not there. Or like, uh, anyway, somehow that was what I was thinking about when you were talking about, um, you know, I, I, I accept it and I don't fucking like it. Um, and Ellen, I wanna ask you about this specifically. 'cause I think this is one of your gifts in the world. I think you have like, such a, you're talk like a hunger for real that I think you're so great at, like leaning in where there's, um, I don't know, rich, I'm thinking of soil.
'cause you're a farmer, right? There's like rich life is happening here [00:19:00] and. We used to ask the question on the show, you know, what is spirituality? What is your spirituality? Or does spirituality or something like that. But I, I am curious to know, like, fuck, I don't wanna put this into words.
This must be a good one.
This is quite a birthing process.
I think you do a really beautiful job of leaning into that edge and sometimes leaning into it you don't like doing.
And I'm curious how that connects to spirituality for you. And if, if you think of that as like, part of your spiritual way of being in the world, but the part of you who's just like, Ooh, it's, it's. There's interesting life. It's uncomfortable. It's fucking real here. Like I, I feel like you're someone who can't help but go there.
And sometimes you want to go there and sometimes you're like, oh fuck, I have to go to the place where the real is.
Um, and, uh, I'm, I'm curious for you to share more about that part of [00:20:00] you with our listeners.
Um, first of all, the word spiritual is off-putting for me.
I know, I know. Ooh,
that,
that makes it so juicy that you're here. I
know, because I'm like, yeah. Yeah. I was telling someone the other day that I was coming here and what your tagline is, you know, a podcast about everyday spirituality and, and then I thought, what am I doing on this thing?
Well, so it's not a word I have a lot of relationship with in terms of self-identification. Like, none. Basically. Mm-hmm. Um, so let's just set that to the side or so, uh, and so your question to me is, it's a good, good question. What is my question? What's up with being attracted to real? What's real, even if it's yucky?
Yeah.
And, and [00:21:00] for me, as someone who's just meeting you, Ellen, like, I'm also curious like, what does that mean? Like what, and maybe Kylie, I don't know if you have examples that you've seen in Ellen, but like, what do you mean? Like attracted to what kind of real, like the discomfort of being a human? Are we talking about the government?
Like,
like I think we're talking about anything, right? Yeah. Including like physic, you know, physical world stuff like, like I'm not freaked out. I, I, I'm big on TMI when it comes to, like, I talk about all kinds of things, whether they're like body stuff or mind stuff or intellectual stuff. Um, I like to go where it gets juicy is uncomfortable
too.
Yeah. And juicy can be, um, you know, feel a, a deep loving kind of energy or it can be upsetting and or [00:22:00] maddening. Um, I just want to go where it's not nothing where it's just like, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. I don't wanna do that. I want to go where there's something is sparked
mm-hmm. Some
kind of reaction or, or some kind of energy besides whatever.
I wanna, I wanna come back to the spirituality thing, 'cause that at some point, 'cause that's, I brought that in on purpose, uh, somewhat subconsciously, but I have you always been this way because I feel like it's something that you know about yourself and you like kind of relish. But I'm curious, like, were there points in your life where you would turn towards the like, messy realness of life and be like, oh fuck, what did I do this for?
And I really stepped in it. Like, what's your relationship then to being someone who, who goes for it
doesn't shy away? Yeah. Yeah. Mm-hmm. Yeah. I think it's, it's not been [00:23:00] very thoughtful, meaning it's, it hasn't felt like it's under my power.
Mm-hmm.
Like it's just the way it is. This is, this is how it goes.
Um, and not sort of purposeful. Hmm. It's just more intuitive and natural. Then like, oh yeah, this is how I'm gonna be, this is what I'm gonna do. It's just like, this is how it is. This is who I am.
And Kylie, is there a reason that you're asking this question?
Is there something that you like about this? Oh yeah. It's one of my favorite things about Ellen. Um
hmm.
I like the space. I like to, I find it a great way to learn. It's like, it's like a way of being able to travel without getting on an airplane is to, is to go somewhere with somebody else in the mess. It's like, um, an [00:24:00] internal travel or imaginary travel.
Yeah. You know, it's interesting, one of the things.
That I, one way that this, I watch you do this, it's like you ask really good questions. Like there's a part of you that wants to be like Ellen. You should ask the questions. You ask really good questions. And part of that, like, you know, will Wise was our mentor and his book is literally called Ask Powerful Questions.
You know, we got, we got some training, but you man, like took it and ran with it. But I think it's, I watch, I watch a willingness when you ask questions to go into uncharted territory, right? I watch how you are willing to ask questions. You're like, I don't know where this is gonna go. And I like to have a little bit of a, like, I, I like to get the preview of where we might go before I ask the question.
And a way that I think, um, I think there's more interesting questions I could be asking if I was less afraid. Um mm-hmm. And that's okay. Like, I don't even, I don't judge that. I just watch, there's this kind of like fearless. Like little kid at the [00:25:00] playground kind of energy when you ask a question that's just like, I don't, I don't, I don't know where this will go, but it could be like the, it could be fun to find out.
Yeah. I call it wondering.
Mm. You know, like, I wonder what's going on. I wonder what's over there. Right. I think you have that too. Like that picking up the rock. What's underneath, you know, it's the re it's curiosity. Yeah.
Okay. 'cause I too love getting really all up in there because I think it's really fascinating.
But I'm curious, have you ever found that it's gotten you in trouble or when you meet discomfort, how, what's that? Is it uncomfortable for you or is it not uncomfortable? Maybe it's uncomfortable for other people, or, yeah. I'm curious what your process is with that. Or is it that you're really good at holding people in discomfort?
I'm curious how that. How you work within this realm of just really going there? [00:26:00]
I think it's definitely gotten me in trouble in the sense, whatever that let's, I don't even know if that's the right word, but, uh, 'cause the, this is not a thing that is widely enjoyed by others, let's just say like, you know, the world is not full of people who wanna go there anywhere, basically.
And so when, uh, so I often can ask a question or be in, um, in a wonderment and the other person's just like, no. Got it. You know?
Um, or maybe even offended. What I exp what I'm afraid of, I think is sometimes I'm, I'm gonna offend someone, or it's like none. Like I have the questions, the questions are burning, but I'm like, is am I being too nosy?
Am I stepping on? Am I, there's some, some boundary that I'm stepping over and sometimes I will open my mouth and I notice that I've, sometimes it's really well received by the right people and then sometimes it's like, get the fuck outta here. [00:27:00]
Yep. I think what I, I've been maybe learning as a grownup person is, especially from will and, and studying with others is a way to do the preface that prefacing the burning, possibly triggery kind of question is, helps meaning like upfront saying, I'm gonna ask something uncomfortable.
Possibly uncomfortable, and. F you know, feel free to do whatever you need to do, or, you know, you don't have to answer me or mm-hmm. Just, just to give permission. I'll
sometimes tell, I'll sometimes tell someone in a client call, I'm gonna ask you a question, you can just tell me to fuck off. Yes.
Or sometimes when I'm in a client call, so I do one-on-one coaching with farmers, uh, mostly around their business, but also around their lives.
'cause farming and life get [00:28:00] super twisted up together. And sometimes I say, Hey, my job is to be an asshole sometimes, and I'm gonna say this thing and it's gonna sound harsh and that's, but I'm gonna do it anyway. 'cause I think that's, I think that's what's called for.
Mm-hmm.
And so that's the preface. It's not asking permission, but it is sort of like, I know this is gonna be hard for you.
Mm. Um, and usually it works in that setting because somebody has like pre-agreed, right? They're spending money, they signed up, they showed up, they're, they've made the, they've shown that they're willing to get in the room. And I just, and anybody who won't get in the room, I just have less and less patience for in my day-to-day living.
It's just like, well, that's not interesting. Mm-hmm. So, yeah.
This [00:29:00] might not be a conscious enough process for you to be able to answer this question, but I'm curious outside of professional context, right. Because it is different. It's like you've, you've, you've, you've paid me to ask you tricky questions and to give you unvarnished truth. And so, uh, it would be a disservice if I held back, right?
Right. But then out in the rest of the world, the, the contract is a little bit different. And I'm curious like. What is the spark for you from wonder to like leaning in with a juicy question? Like is it just happen automatically? Is there a
it's, it just happens. Yeah. Yeah. It's just an, it's, it's the innate you, so it's hard. Just keep, like, I'm, I'm, I'm totally self, I want, because I know I can feel for me that I like. Eva, it's interesting you were saying that, asking the juicy question of, uh, like in in personal situations, you're like afraid that you might overstep.
For me, I can totally [00:30:00] feel that. Um, it's about control. It's like I'm, I can feel how I'm afraid to ask, uh, a question that is really juicy and open and I just don't know where it will, like, there's something to me in my body that wants to like be in control and so I ask tighter
questions. Mm-hmm.
Interesting. So for you, it's about being in control. I think for me it's about. Like people pleasing a little bit, like caring a little bit too much of people not getting
rejected. Yeah,
yeah. Like or not pissing, yeah. Not pissing people off and therefore not being rejected, you know, playing nice.
Yeah. Yeah.
And, and, and as a result, sometimes, I don't know if you ever see you, but it's almost like sometimes I see a moment where like a richer opportunity for connection passed by and I couldn't quite figure out how to like, like grab it, sink into it, you know? And it's not that it's bad, but there's like, sometimes you meet someone and they're like really interesting and you're intrigued and you're having a connection, but there's a way that sometimes I'm like, there's more here, [00:31:00] but I'm not.
And it's, I'm, it's, it's not even a negative thing, it's just an awareness of like a place where one can lean in more. And I think you are someone who does that leaning in really beautifully. So I'm just trying to like soak up. Some Ellen Mat so I can bring it out places. But it's hard to explain how you are ur innate self, you know?
Yeah. I don't have very much explanation and I love hearing you. I think it's a beautiful thing for you to notice the possibility, even though it was not realized. 'cause just noticing that it, that it could have happened means you're like already queuing yourself up for the next possibility and you'll keep being more ready and willing to, to jump when the opportunity comes, don't you think?
Yes. I think I like that framing. I appreciate that. Yeah. I have. Okay, I have two questions. One is for Eva, and I'm curious [00:32:00] to know more about, like if I wanna give you the floor to talk about moments where you've asked something. Does it really, does it really happen that people are. They dislike the questions that you ask, or is it more that you're afraid that it'll happen?
And then you ask them and they're like, oh, yeah, that was fun.
Hmm. Yeah, that's a good question because I think you're right. Some of it is just the perceived dis because it's uncomfortable, and so there's a perceived threat. And then, and I think I'm remembering the perceived threat than I, more than I'm actually remembering the results.
And I think the majority of time actually, people are either mm, like are open to the invitation to, to step up. You know, they're like, you can tell when you've asked a really sort of confronting question and they're like, whoa. Like, uh, but there's a respect there of like, okay, like we're just having, we're just being honest with each other.
Mm-hmm. And that can be nice, but there have been times where,[00:33:00]
oh yeah, maybe it's, it's interesting, I, I have one specific memory, like asking my dad a very personal question and just going straight to the point. And I was with my brother. And I asked the question knowing that I was digging and my brother, and the minute it came outta my mouth, my brother was like, like, like kind of being like, what was his reaction?
Like, God, like how could you ask that? You know?
Mm-hmm.
Um, how was your dad in that moment? I think my dad was actually fine. It was just that my brother was PR was like, he was, he was feeling uncomfortable and so he was expressing his own discomfort. Um, so that's interesting. But I, every so often I think, yeah, someone can be like, I, or, or actually Ellen, I'm actually really curious if this ever happens to you, you ask, you go there and you like have, wanna have like maybe the tricky conversation or ask the juicy question and it makes someone shut down.
Yeah. Yeah. It's not even that they get angry, it's like, they're like, it's too vulnerable, or they feel like I'm prying [00:34:00] and they're not ready to be that open. Um. I agree. I go, what's your experience with that? Because then I get, I get kind of like bummed out, but I also wanna be like, oh, you're allowed to be how you are.
You know? But sometimes I'm like, no, I, I think I'm looking for honesty and connection here. And it's, and that's my way to, to honesty and connection is like these really honest con Yeah. These honest conversations. And sometimes people, like you were saying, aren't ready. Yeah. And
yeah, I think that happens quite regularly for me is the other person is just like, not no, not gonna go there.
Um, and they don't even, and they aren't even gonna say that, so to speak. They're just gonna be like. Walk away or just say, oh, well let's ha let's go get some water. [00:35:00] You know, just like mm-hmm. Completely. They gotta change the subject. Yeah. Do a U-turn and just go elsewheres. Um, but I, I also think I was just gonna, something that you said made me think of, um, that I'll share, I'll share something that may be considered too much or too personal or, you know, TMI or whatever it is, as a way of like, preparing, you know, like mm-hmm.
Setting the stage, like, I'm gonna reveal something and then it's your turn, like, Hey, you wanna jump in here with me? Mm-hmm. Um, and that can help, but it's still like some people. Don't wanna play that way, that they are not looking for the same kind of connection that I'm talking about, and they just want to not have something bad happen.
Mm-hmm. And so in order to make sure nothing bad [00:36:00] happens, you don't take any risks. So they just play super safe, just stay superficial and then look, we can spend two whole hours and nothing bad happened. Yeah. I just rather have the bad thing happen and, and enjoy it kind of in a way.
That's how I feel too.
But I Now I'm gonna, sorry, I'm gonna jump in with a question. Earlier you had already said, it seems like you're really clear that, you know, if people aren't willing to, what did you say? Like, be in the room with you or play, you know, be, be in the room with you, walk, walk the walk with you, that you're not really interested in having them in these relationships.
And I, I think I'm teetering betw, teetering between. That, you know, and just being like, I just wanna be around my people. I only wanna be able to, I only wanna spend my precious energy around these people. But then there's also another part of me that's like, but I wanna allow people to, because I'm thinking about people that I love, you know, who I do want to have in my life.
And I'm like, but I [00:37:00] also want to love people as they are and not need them to be the way that I want them to be. Yeah. And so, uh, I'm just noting a pull that I'm feeling towards two different,
I totally get what you're saying. I feel that pull, 'cause again, as we were talking before, I was thinking most of the people I'm related to don't wanna get in the room.
Like, I really only have one sister. I have four siblings and a parent left. Um, and only one out of those five people is even. Vaguely interested in getting in the room, and I've, I think I've accepted, I don't like it, but I've accepted it and I've, it no longer is disappointing to, to spend time with the ones that don't wanna get in the room, but I also don't really make a lot of effort to [00:38:00] spend time.
Mm-hmm. So I'm not avoiding, but I'm also not like, you know, putting, prioritizing, prioritizing and making lots of invitations. I'm just sort of like, yeah, some, if something happens, it'll be fine. And if it doesn't, it's also really fine. And I used to feel really bad about that. Like guilty, like, like sort of what you're pointing to Eva of like, well, wow.
Kind of a way is that to be Yeah. I'm like, you're
boring. I'm also thinking about people who I love in my family. So I, I think we're on the same boat, but hearing you speak about this is really helpful. Yeah. It's like they can still be in my life. I can still love them, but they may not be the main players in my life who I, I go to for enrichment, you know?
Yep. Can, can I, can I add an anecdote that feels actually like, connected back to what we're talking about the top of the show too? So I'm thinking of two, two different ways I've experienced what you're speaking to. And one is that there's [00:39:00] some people who I really, really love and have loved for, you know, decades.
And I had to really be honest with myself that I was willing to let go of the relationship in order to realize that I wanted to keep the relationship. Meaning there were like places where like our. Way of connecting is different. And there were a couple of people that like, I felt like frustrated because I was, we, there was periods where we were like, this, you know, super connected and now it feels all like effortful.
And, and I was mad about it and I was resentful about it and whatever, all the things you feel about relationships that shift and evolve over time. And there was this really big gift that came with, with, with a handful of visa, of being able to look at them and say like, you aren't obligated to keep these relationships, right?
Just because you have had them for a long time, you can just let them go. And so, and there was something in being willing to let it go that made it really [00:40:00] easy to choose. Right? And then to, and then, and then that's where that acceptance of like, and also this is how this person is. So like, love them for who they are, not for who you want them to be.
Um, and, and so the like. That being a really beautiful thing then of letting something brand new show up between, between, you know, these people and I, and then the other piece, the other flip side of the coin is, um, goes back to the idea of like, you gotta fucking choose something if you want something to exist.
And so my brother is three years younger than me. We, he's like the easiest person in the world to be around. Like if there's like one person that was like, you can spend all day just being with one, he would be like, top of the list. Like, I just love my brother. He, he's so easy to be with and there's a way that we are shit at being in conversation with each other at all, ever.
And part of that is because, uh, I suck at talking to people on the phone [00:41:00] or answer or texting back. And part of that is 'cause he's a total frigging homebody who never wants to leave where he lives in Maine and I live four hours away. Like there's a whole bunch of factors to it that are not, like, not anyone doing anything but.
All of a sudden, uh, it's like months and months will go by without us even saying peep to each other. And that could be fine, except for we actually really fucking like each other. Right? Yeah. And he is a get in the room kind of person. Like he's a, I can just l and u would love my, I mean, he's a fisherman, right?
Fisherman and farmers. He's just like, we go together the sweetest, sweetest heart, most like tender hearted human. And so he is a, like, you could just sit and be still together and also he will get in the room and like have the juicy conversation and, um, anyway, he's about to have a baby. I'm gonna have a niece.
And it's really clear to me that's like, if you don't put some fucking effort into this [00:42:00] relationship, it, it, it will just like drift and drift and drift. Like if it feels like a, and my mom thing, but God bless her has kind of like, think. Gave me, gave me a, like ta a stern talking to, was like, you know, it's good, you know, you know what happens when you have a baby?
He doesn't know yet. But like, if you wanna be close, um, not just in your heart, but like in each other's lives, you, you have to choose that, right? If you want your hair to look a certain way, you gotta fucking buy the product, or you have to accept that it's not gonna just magically happen, right? And so, yeah.
Um, that, so that's been an interesting place where like, I'm ha the, the, the foundation is so much love between the two of us, and then I'm having to do this like efforting and planning and thinking about reaching out in a way that's different for me, right? I'm just very much like, I do what I want, when I want, and I'm very like [00:43:00] anti structure.
And I'm like, no, you, it's like, it's Wednesday, you call your brother, kind of things. And I'm trying to do, yeah. And. All of that was what was coming up. As you guys were talking about the, you know, in the room with people thing.
Do you, do you think that your brother is willing to exert effort as well? Yes.
That's where I fall apart is that I'm willing to do lots of effort, but not every effort. Not all, not all of it. Like for sure. You know, if, are you gonna try to, are, you know, are you gonna come part way? Yeah. Is he willing to? Yeah.
And actually he has some tender feelings about many moments where he put in effort and I, I couldn't, I, I couldn't pick up the ball.
So he, there, there, there, we have a history of him reaching out and I just couldn't per, I couldn't, I couldn't pick it up. Um, and so yes he is, and [00:44:00] also he's about to not be able to.
Yeah, exactly. It's gotta have a newborn. And so yeah. This is gonna be more heavily
your turn so to speak. Yeah, it's, it's my turn.
It's my turn. Yeah. Uh, so
anyway, I don't have to, there's a baby there too. I mean, there's a lot of magnetism to that scene. Did you make a baby blanket?
I've, uh, that's the one I showed you when we were at lunch. Okay. That's the one slow. Oh, it's
so beautiful
because I picked the Tidiest yarn yet and I made it the biggest baby blanket yet.
'cause it's for my knee. So the baby shower's in 10 days and it's like
40% done. Oh wow. Well, you can just bring the 50% there and be like, when it's done, I'll give you the whole thing.
That's true. And actually the part of me who's theatrical is like, oh, I don't want it to be mixed in with all those other gifts.
I'm gonna give it to them later when they can really appreciate it, how special it is. So, you know, it'll all work out.
It'll all work [00:45:00] out.
Okay. Since we're having this like, meta conversation about connection very will wise of us, um, while we're having this conversation, like while we're connecting, um, that moment right there that this is like a classic thing for me where like, okay, I, I do the thing where I'm like, oh, let me share like a super juicy story that, that feels so easy for me.
Right? Ellen, you were saying that too. Like, it feels so easy for me to just be like, oh, I'm gonna tell you about my brother's decade long resentment with me and how much I, you know, whatever, all this stuff, right? I have no problem sharing those. Um, 'cause I also have very clear boundaries of where I like, what feels good to share and what doesn't.
Right. And there's a like a little kid part of me that I can feel is like, okay, now just tell me one of your juicy stories. I don't know, a question to ask. Just like, pick one now. It's your you. It's like, I'll show you. I'll just rush. Yeah, I'll show, show me yours if I show you mine. And I think to, [00:46:00] to think it, think in terms of like, you know, will and connection.
I think there's a moment that's like a turning towards an invitation in and asking a question and uh, that's like a bridge into deeper connection. Right? And I think sometimes something I've perceived sometimes is that my enthusiasm to tell the, like real story. I don't always have the, the bridge to invite them back in, readily available.
And then I think that's sometimes where the connection gets dropped. Um, I. Like someone like you, Ellen or Eva, like when we're talking we just, you do just like lean in. But, but that's what I wanna know how to do is like, because, because one of the things that I think ends up happening is sometimes I think I take up more space in the room than I want to because I'm excited to share and that I want other people to share even more than I am.
But I don't always know how to get 'em to do it. Does that make sense? How to invite?
Yeah. How to invite them in. [00:47:00]
Yeah. Yeah. So tell me how to do it. 'cause you guys I think are better at that than me.
Mm.
I also wonder if this is like, from what I understand, part of what you guys were learning from Will, is that true? Mm-hmm. Yeah. And what do you think Will would say, and this is a question to both of you, but to Ellen, what do you know? What did you guys learn from that Will for us please? What did you guys the podcast.
From this wise man,
extending as, as she said, sort of extending the hand, extending the bridge of, uh, you know, is, has that ever happened to you? Do you have an experience like that? Do you, you know, do you have, do you have a sibling that you're still kind of, uh, building a relationship with or what's, what's, um, what are your family relationships like?
So just [00:48:00] trying to create some other connected question that might help them get in there in the ring with you.
Okay. Then
here's my question.
I wanna know. And so meta style, what's popping in my mind is like, right, okay. You have to just build the habit, like the habit of you call your brother every Wednesday, you have to build the habit that your reign like.
Starts to form a question, right? Because I think sometimes I get to the end of the story and I'm like, oh, shit question, right? And I like, now what? Now what? So, and that, and that feels thematic. Uh, you just gotta build the habit. So here's the question that I wanna ask. I'm curious if you have a time where there was a relationship that you felt was potentially drifting, or, or, and you had to like, double down on it and like pour into it in a way that intentionally, in a way that you hadn't before and what happened and what that looked like.
Hmm.
I, [00:49:00] I don't know if this is quite the, what you're looking for, but I'm gonna take it in, take the ride anyway, and we spoke about this last week. So I have a, a girlfriend, a friend, woman who I can't. Quite figure out how to be in relationship with in the sense of I want more of her and I want more of, I wanna, I wanna develop our relationship and I wanna put in energy and, but we can't seem to figure out what modality is gonna work like you and your brother.
Like she wants to be a phone person or a text person. And I wanna be a in-person person 'cause she lives 15 minutes away. And so many of my beautiful connections happen on Zoom, which is awesome. And I'm thankful. And if somebody lives 15 minutes away, like let's have our bodies be next to [00:50:00] each other somewhere and let's walk in the woods or swim in the water and we can't.
So we're. I, I, we can't find a match between how to be in relationship with each other. And so what happens for me, and I'm totally just going sideways, um, is that I feel I get frustrated and then I pull back. So I'm all up and ready and like poised and interested in game and, and then, no, I can't do that.
No, I can't do that. No, I'm busy with this. No, I'm busy with that. And then eventually I'm just like, oh, okay. I sort of, you know, I gotta, I have an expectation, misalignment, and a, and a want that is not getting satisfied. And so then I think, all right, well I gotta like chill out. Like hold back, relax, [00:51:00] stop trying so hard.
And then I got to this place where I was like not inviting her to anything anymore. 'cause I just knew the answer was no. Right. Mm-hmm. She's busy, she's busy, she's busy, she's busy. And so that's what we're in now is like, now we're not even trying. So we're gonna have a meeting, hopefully tomorrow and see if we can push some kind of a reset button and like ask each other more questions.
Like, are you really busy all the time? Or am I just making up this story? Or are our schedules really truly that misaligned? Mm-hmm. Or is
there are you, are, are, are you equally invested in pursuing this relationship? Yeah. You know, and I think that's like, I think that's, I just wanna note how awesome it is that you guys are just addressing it head on and being like, Hey, like up, like.
With the presumption that both of you want to pursue a friendship, then the easy thing is just like, okay, then let's just talk about it. What's getting essentially the same [00:52:00] question Yeah. That maybe your hair, your, your haircut store person said, like, what's getting in the way of that happening? What's getting in the way of you guys hanging out?
Yeah. Um, and to troubleshoot that, which I think is so good, because so often times we, we, we, we do the thing where you were just fading and you just fade and fade and you just assume that you, the answer is no, so you don't make an effort. Um, so I think sometimes it's just so nice to have a direct conversation.
But, but I think really the, the question that needs to be started from, or where you need to start from is like, the most basic question is like, wait, are you actually interested in, in, what are you looking for? Yeah, yeah, exactly. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Which could be also is an example of kind of a, a juicy question to ask,
you
know?
Yep. And this woman is game. She will always get in the ring or in the room, or in the mud or whatever you wanna talk about. So we've done this before, this conversation and, and then things kinda spun out to, like, me just [00:53:00] actually being a little bit resentful of like, oh, whatever, you know, I give up. Um, but she's too good.
She's just too cool and juicy and beautiful and so, yeah. So we're gonna try and see, you know, see what's possible. Open up, open up the door again. What's getting in the way, you know, is there, is there possibility over here or over here that we can navigate into? Yeah. Yeah. And I agree that it's such an unusual, like I don't feel like I've talked about being in relationship with a friend before.
I've done it with Partnery. Love, you know, romantic relationships. We talk about the relationship, but not hardly ever in a pal kind of context.
I mean, highly underrated. Highly underrated. I think it's like, I, I, I think highly, and my may have talked about this before, but I, something that [00:54:00] I've said is like, sometimes our friendships are our most romantic relationships.
Like, you know, I like our girl, especially like girl friendships. Ugh. I just, sometimes I love being a woman so much. I feel so blessed to be a woman. 'cause we get to have these such rich connections and, um, absolutely. But I think in order to maintain they're rich because, or I think the, in order, because they're so rich, there's something needs to be some maintenance, just like every other relationship.
It's not, and I think we forget that. We think, okay, well, we'll we'll work on our romantic relationship. We'll put time and effort, we'll go on dates and whatever, have these conversations. But I don't, I think we need just as much of care with our, you know, friendships as well.
And I think the part of us who wants to be like, accommodating and easy, that like women thing in particular of like, oh, I just am, um, easygoing.
No expectations here. Right? There's a way that, um, you know, as women, we, we sometimes [00:55:00] feel an obligation to be palatable and that can really erode. Women friendships because then it turns into resentment or it turns into unmet needs, or it turns into misunderstanding where it's like, no, actually this was one of my oldest friendships that I have.
We're really, really, really different from each other. Um, and also I fucking love this woman because we will always hash it out. Always. It might take us a couple, like it might take a couple weeks. Weeks or once and even a couple months of like clearly passive, aggressively being like, no, I am busy. You know, whatever, whatever.
But we will always hash it out and, uh, and I, and we will, we're both very like, just say the fucking thing kind of people. And um, and it's why we're so close still, right? Because there's been all these moments where we could have just gone our separate ways. 'cause again, we are really different at this point in our lives, but we come to that crossroads.
We just always [00:56:00] turn towards each other and do what you're kind of being too, like, do the work. What is the desire? What is the need? What's in the way? Like, let's just put it all on the table. Oh, right. I am still choosing you. I am still choosing to show up here. And that kind of like intentional turning towards and, and being willing to say like, I need this and this, you know, or whatever.
Um, yeah. Has made what would've been like a cool childhood friend, like, you know, the aunt of my kids. This like lifelong relationship. So I'm, I'm, I'm with you. I'm a big fan of saying the fucking thing with friends.
Yeah. I, I'm wanting to invite myself to think about it with more people. Yeah. Like, we're just saying like, why am I not talking like, about this with my other friend?
And then the what about my other friend? And anyway, this is, it's a good reminder.
Well, you're such a say the fucking thing anyway, kind of person. I'm actually surprised that this is like a new, new [00:57:00] territory. How fun. I know.
It is fun. I was thinking there's something juicy for me in the, the part of this relationship has seemed like, like having a, a boyfriend or, you know, romantic partner that lives on the other side of the world and like, the only way you ever get to, to see each other or, or to connect at all is through texting and, and maybe a phone call or something.
And it just feels like not enough. Like Mm. Like there's no, it's like you can hold that tension almost in the, in that romantic setting, because you know that at Christmas. Somebody's gonna fly to the other person's place and you're like, building this, almost this tension that's gonna get released because you'll finally be in the same place at the same time.
And that feels like what I'm doing with this woman and had been doing is [00:58:00] like supporting each other. Texting. Texting. And, but there was no payoff. There was no place for the release for the, like, where we're building to what, like, we've never even fucking gone to dinner. Mm-hmm. We've never been, we've never gone on an adventure.
This is really interesting to me because as I'm listening to this, I, I'm curious what Kylie's thoughts are because ki I think Kylie oftentimes you are the texter in the, in this relationship because you are so busy that oftentimes you don't actually have time to. Be in person with people together. Yeah.
You don't have to like, you can do texts, you can, well, I takes on your phone, maybe not text, but voice messages, you know, like, and, and maybe sometimes that's all you have room for. Mm-hmm. So I just think that's, I don't know, I'm curious that make anything
updated that's interesting. Uh, I mean, yeah. I am often the one who's like, you know, I have, uh, yeah, you're busy.
You're just a busy girl. Busy. I'm busy. Mm-hmm. Um, full, like, [00:59:00] not even busy in a bad way. Just like, right. My, I had, there's like a fullness to the full plate. A lot of time is accounted for. Um, but I'm really with Ellen, like I, which is interesting. I've never heard it put that way, but that really clicked and landed for me.
I do think, like, I love when I have the capacity, I love chitchatting with people over messenger or text. I mean, listeners know that I have baggage about feeling like I'm not gonna staying up on it. But what I do enjoy, like getting and receiving messages. But it does feel like the, like the, in some ways, in a lot of spaces, the payoff.
Like, like when you and I got to have lunch, it was like, this is like the real thing. Um, and, and that the rest of them, the rest of the time it's almost like there's like maintenance energy and then there's like really nourishing energy, right? And so like Eva, you and I chitchat throughout the week, sometimes more than others, and like, I love that, [01:00:00] but then like mm-hmm.
But this feels like the meat of Yeah. The relationship. I was just gonna say stink.
Yeah. Like, oh my God, where does that come from? But another day, oh my
gosh. I've had, I've had steak like four days this week. Like my body is just like all the red meat, which is really interesting. Yeah. Well
I live in Brazil now, which is all red meat, so I'm with you.
Oh, yeah,
yeah, yeah, yeah. I do think I have a couple friendships that have been more like. The whole nature of the friendship is, is really just, is the messaging, but mostly I think it's, it's like, yeah, messaging feels like, almost like maintenance. Yeah. It's what, what you do in maintenance between it's maintenance, but then there's something, and that the thing might be Zoom, it might be in person, it, you know, it might be once a year, it might be once a month, but there's some kind of like payoff moment.
Mm-hmm. Yeah. Yeah. What about you, Eva? Because you are like,
all of all, your people are all over the world, right? Yeah. So, [01:01:00] yeah, that's actually interesting. This is so fascinating to me that this has become evolved into a conversation about relationships and friend and relationships, you know? But one thing I wanna say really quick, Ellen, is like, so it sounds like what's coming, maybe you, maybe you already knew this, but it sounds like a piece of the conversation for you to have with your friend is this idea of like, one of your needs is like, yeah, you can do the text thing, but eventually the the, the need, the desire is like, yeah, the payoff.
That you're looking. Yeah. Yeah. And to see if she's available for that.
Anyway, I, I appreciate that you've helped me be ready, get ready for my meeting tomorrow. You know, and knowing
too, being, and I feel like there's something to the point, like knowing what you want, because then like, it's really helpful to say, like, the thing, the thing that's actually important here to me is this.
Like, I once had a friend, another one of these like, you know, state of the union conversations. And it was a friend that, in particular, I'd been really drowning about guilt of like, I haven't texted this friend enough, whatever. I had a whole story, right? And she was [01:02:00] like, I don't really care about texting.
She's like, I do it a lot 'cause I like it. And I said, at a desk job all day. And I have it open on my computer. Like, I like it, but I don't give a shit. Like I'm, I'm, I'm not looking for that, but I am looking for these things. And I was like, oh, oh, I can do those things. Those are the things that I'm looking for too.
Great. But. But I'd been pouring all of this like, guilt story into this thing that like wasn't actually even the vital thing. So, um, yeah, there's something I think really great about, like, this is the thing I actually want most. Do you what, how do you feel about that?
Yeah, yeah. Good, clear. Wow. This is actually
so interesting to me because I'm seeing now how helpful it is to know for ourselves to have the self-awareness of, of what we need.
To have a friendship thrive for ourselves or any relationship, family relationship, romantic relationship, and being like, wait, what is that really? And then just having like a really open conversation with the other people and being like, 'cause you're right. Like, we make assumptions [01:03:00] or, or I think I oftentimes make the assumptions that other people are just like me.
I'm like, oh, well I have this need and this is just human nature. And then of course I'm humbled again when I realize we, this person's brain works so differently from mine and they don't care. They're not even thinking about the things that I'm thinking about, but they are thinking about this other thing that I never considered.
So, um, yeah. Anyway, I'm gonna tuck this in my back pocket. Yeah. For thinking about future conversations about, yeah. With loved ones. Um, but Kylie, you were asking me what do I, how do I feel about, well, a
question a while ago that I would still love to hear an answer was about I. Ellen's answer was so juicy was about like, have, have you had moments where there was a friendship or relationship that felt like it was like drifting?
Right. Not like, not something I already have an answer. I, I already have an answer. Yeah. Because,
because as you were talking about your brother, I didn't really understand earlier what you meant when you [01:04:00] said, like, life, you know, I'm reaching 40 and, and time isn't infinite in this body anyway, so. Mm-hmm.
Like, if I'm gonna make changes, I should, you know, get on it. And I, and as you were talking to your brother about your brother, I was like, oh, I know where I feel that in my life. And it's with my relationships with, with my nephews. Mm. And something I've really thought about is like my brother, I mean, first of all, I just love my nephews to pieces, but I'm like the, I would say like the black sheep of the family.
I have a very different perspective from. My, my, my family. I, I'm like the sort of like the fun kooky one, right? I'm like the kooky, crazy aunt essentially. And I actually, the cool aunt. Yeah, the cool aunt. The cool aunt. But I really see how that is an addition to their lives actually. And you know, they live in the suburbs of la they live very nuclear family lives.
And [01:05:00] not that there's anything wrong with that, but I would really love to open up their eyes to other ways of life or even just like rituals and fun things and nature and, you know, things that I think would enrich their lives. And I've thought about that for a long time of like, how can I do that? And I realize, wait, I can't do that if I'm not with them.
Like I have to go to LA and spend more time with them. And then also be really intentional about the time, like how I'm using the time when I'm there. 'cause I think what happens is I get there and I'm usually tired. And you know, we'll just like watch movies together, you just fold into
their sort of rhythm.
Normal rhythm.
Yes, yes. I fall into their rhythm. And a question I keep getting stuck on is, and I don't know if this is, if you guys have any thoughts for now, or this is something I just continue to think on, is like, they have their rhythm and so I fall into that, but I kind of wanna change things up a little bit and I don't know how to do that.
I wanna, like, last time I had this whole list of like fun things I was gonna do with [01:06:00] them. Like I wanted to sing songs with like nature songs with them and I wanted to like sage the house with them and like, I dunno, juice gardening stuff with them or whatever. And I didn't do any of it because I just got sucked into that life.
Mm. So I think it's just about, I don't know, being more intentional I suppose. Like you were saying Kylie, like you know, the effort that you're putting into talking, like texting your brother on a weekday or whatever, like Yeah, I think it's, I've got it. I have so
many things to say about this, but I will see if Ellen has things she wants to say first.
Yeah.
Ellen, I'm curious what you think.
I'm so, that's such a good question. Um, and I can go so many different ways. Same thing, it's sort of like, well, falling into the rhythm is really being with them. It's not, not being with them. It's, um, and there's some, you learn something about seeing, sort of seeing them in their natural environment, so to speak, like a wild animal in the, in the wild.
Mm-hmm.
And, and then I can, and I totally [01:07:00] relate to what you're saying, and I'm the kooky aunt, I'm the fun one or the black sheep. And, but I, I think it's really hard for, to bring your agenda. They're like, there's a certain, like, oh, I have a better idea thing going on with like. TV is not cool. Let's get outside.
Which is actually how I, how what I think. But there's that little bit like, I have a better way than you. Totally, totally.
It's totally my agenda. Like I can see how forceful that feels. I'm like, let's go sing nature songs. And then they're like, I'm not gonna, of course you're not gonna fucking do that.
Like, they're like,
who is this woman who's, so it seems, it seems like the more possible place to have a different kind of experience would have to be outside of their, the vortex of their lives. Meaning they come to you somewhere or you meet them in another space. 'cause I know you're too far away, but [01:08:00] maybe some other third place where there's less of this, this is how we do it.
Energy. And so do both, you know, like get sucked into the vortex of their, this is, this is the way life works for us. And see if and something else is possible, but with a different. Location.
Seriously. That is actually such good advice. I love how practical that is too, by the way. Thank you so much. But, and I've, I've, you're, I think you're absolutely right and I don't know if it means like they, I don't know if it means like them getting older 'cause I'm far away, right?
So I don't know if they're gonna, they're not gonna come to Brazil. But I've often thought about just like, I wanna go camping with them, you know? Mm-hmm. And maybe I would just take them camping, but I don't know if I'm ready. I think they might need to be a
little bit older before that can happen. It could even be something as simple as.
This involves money. So there's a whole other piece that may not work of when you go to LA of not staying in their house. So if you [01:09:00] stayed in a hotel or an Airbnb and you're just like, Hey, let's, you guys want to come over to my place, then they would be like, we don't know what happens at this place.
True. We've never, never been, been here before. My rules
baby.
Yeah. My place, my rules. We're going to eat my crazy food and we're gonna take this kind of a walk. I don't know, just throw em off.
I love that. Okay. Sorry. Thank you. Okay.
I, what I love also is that Ellen and I, basically, I'm about to give you variations on what Ellen said.
'cause I have basically the same notes. Um, because firstly you wrote the reminder that you are, it's your being that gives them access to a different way of, of living, right? It's not the things that you do, it's not actually saging the house. It's you being you and like this loving presence in their life.
And so you are not. You're not, not doing that when you're sitting on the couch watching movies with them. Right. Which I think, you know, but the reminder, um, and I also think was thinking [01:10:00] about the importance of like shifting routine. And one of the things that I do with each of my kids, so one of the things I think about a lot is not like a lot, but more than ever is now that while they're young, how can I foster the kind of relationship with them so that when they're 16 we're close and that we have, right.
Because there's a dynamic of your relationship that's like, I make you sandwiches and I get you school on time. And then there's the part of your relationship that's about, like, you talk to me about your things and I'm a trusted person in your life. And we're like, you know, we, we have fun together. And, um, and so.
I once a month with each of my kids, go on a date. And Desis is called a reading date. British is called a coloring date. Uh, and we go out usually to a brewery 'cause that's like the right vibe of like quiet and it open in the evening. 'cause coffee shops are closed, restaurants are too loud. And we bring a stack of books, a deck of cards, a bunch of coloring books, whatever the thing is.
And we just hang out for a couple [01:11:00] hours. Hmm. And, um, it's really fun and it would, whatever. Like it's just, it's it's different every time. But there's something, I love this, this is so cute. Cute. It's, it's, I mean, I do, I, it does feel like one of my most favorite things and um, and there's something just like really sweet and special about just doing it outside of the house.
Like I color with birdie all the time. Right. I read books with Desi and I are constantly just sitting on the couch next to each other reading. But there does feel like there's something. Different just in the changing of the location and also the like marking, like this is special and it is different.
And so different things might happen. I don't know what we'll do. Right? Sometimes we spend the whole time playing the claw machine game or whatever, right?
Yeah.
Um,
yeah. Cool. No, I
love
this. This
is really, yeah, it's like sound advice. So the, the like tangible idea that came for me as like an intersection of like, um, you know, [01:12:00] staying somewhere else is like, what if when you're there you just like get a hotel room for one night and you're like, we're gonna swim in the pool, have a slumber party, we're gonna get pizza.
Like, we're just gonna like, whatever the thing is. But just like Auntie Eva's here and we're gonna go on like a one night adventure, 15 minutes down the street.
Oh my God, I love this. Oh, you, you guys are creative being I never, I just, yeah. I'm just so used to my routine there that I don't think outside the box.
Um, but all of those things are super doable. Yeah.
And that will lay the foundation for something like camping. Right. Because camping would be a big thing. You gotta plan it. You gotta like, get all the shit you gotta, and so how do you like, in the same way that I want them to be my, I want them to think of me as like a friend when they're 16.
I gotta make that happen now. It's like doing a one night overnight in a hotel is easy, but it builds a pattern of like, we do things and go off on adventures together. Yeah. So camping will be not some big, strange new thing. It will be [01:13:00] just a bigger version of what you already, always do.
Yeah.
Which is you're also building that trust.
Yes. If
they're really little about that, they're o they're gonna be okay with you being in charge. Yes. Kind of thing. Like you're trustworthy. A grown, a trustworthy grownup. Yes.
Wow. This was such a sweet, unexpected like gift for me because this is something that's kind of been gnawing, you know, in the back of my head for a while, but not.
Putting any time into, so thank you for this. This is really sweet.
I wanna hear what happens.
I know. Just give the update. Okay. Ellen, I send you the
update. How old are, how old are the littles?
Uh, they're five and nine now. Yeah. So they're getting big. They're getting big. Yeah. The nine year olds getting big because like a mini teenager already.
Yeah.
This is also part of my 40 anxiety is that on addition to me being about to be 40, like Desi is giant and like older now. Like he's been eight [01:14:00] since January, but he's like eight now. Like the other day, the other day, the other day, he said to Nick, no, Capin, which is slang for, I'm not lying. We had to, I, I literally was like, I don't even know.
He said, he said, no, Capin dad. I saw a pink car yesterday. No capin.
I've never, never ever that in my life. Well, yeah. I think that's
kids like, or like young people sl Gosh, I think it's, no, no, no cap. But I think, I think originally it's no Cap. And then I think now people say, no. Capin. Yes.
And then, and then we were, I was showing this very silly video of this scene from a TV show from like a decade ago.
It's from Parks and Rec. If anybody watched that show in which these very goofy characters sing this song, don't, they're sneaking away from a funeral and they don't wanna get caught and they're going, don't be suspicious. But then they start singing this like hilarious keyed up song where they're both going, don't be suspicious, don't, don't be su.
And like being very suspicious. And I just think it's the funniest song ever. And so I was playing it for them and Desi was like, some people [01:15:00] say sus
what? I was like, that didn't even exist when this clip was made. And these are like just little things, but it's like you're just not like 20 little teeny now. You're not a baby anymore.
Yeah, it's
weird. And so now I'm almost looking at birdie and I'm like, oh gosh, I knew, I intellectually knew this would happen, but now it's happening.
And you're gonna also start saying, no cap and suss, you know,
whatever. What do you think about that? Yeah. They have their own lives. Like they are members of the world, then you're not in charge of everything anymore. Right? And so it's all a big surprise, but your energy mostly I think is like, whoa, that's cool.
Right? And, and so I think having that response. Is gonna invite [01:16:00] them to what you, what you really want, which is to continue to reveal themselves to you, is to keep saying, wow, that's inter, that's cool. Instead of, you know, being, unless of course it's something dangerous, then you do a mom thing. But you're, but you have so much of that energy of Wow, I think that's gonna be, that's gonna be the bedrock that will get you to transparency and, and deep sharing as their lives get more complicated.
And they, all those, you know, their personalities are developing and all kinds of other layers are starting to come in. I think you, you've got great groundwork. Yeah.
Kylie's making a face. You look super
worried. Well, the face was because you were talking about their lives getting more complicated. And I think that's part of.
I've said before, and Alan, I don't know if you feel this way, but I [01:17:00] feel like motherhood is a constant study in grief. It's many things, but one part of it, because something's always ending, it just is. Right? Something's always ending. And uh, so the face that I just made was because I don't love for them the way their life will get more complicated.
I mean, there's richness. It's fun to grow up, but also like it hurts the part. Oh, I just got tears. My eyes like it's gonna get complicated and they're gonna get hurt and I wouldn't be able to stop it. And it's not my job to
Right.
I'll just have to be there and hope they tell me.
Yep. You know, just be in awe of it all.
Hmm. Do you feel like you had, I. Do you feel like you had that sense of awe throughout your, because I know you have an, [01:18:00] your son's an an adult now. Do you feel like you have that sense of awe throughout motherhood, or do you feel like it was something you had to learn later?
Like as as you were It's been,
yeah.
It's
been there all along. Yeah. And it doesn't stop. He's 28, almost 29, and I'm still just in awe of him and our relationship. And it's funny watching you have feel that grief right in front of us. I don't have that happen. Mm-hmm. And I don't feel like I, like with my son, that's what I'm, that's the thing that's weird.
It's like I grieve all kinds of things, but I don't feel like I've felt that grief of like, oh, this period of is over and now we're into this one. I don't know why. Well,
how did you experience it? How did you, how did you experience it?
Just awe. Just like, whoa, here we go. You know, hold on, buckle up. Let's, you know, let's, here we go.
[01:19:00] Like, we're just riding the ride, you know? And not so much looking back, just like looking forward, like, here we go, we're going, we're going. Yeah. It's not, that's, that's not how I am all the time, but in this case, it is, is is my experience.
That's the ma majority of my experience. Like, I'm not someone who has a lot of like, regret, you know, people say like, blinking, you'll miss it.
And I'm like, I know, I have no doubt. And also like, or this is good, you know, like I, so I'm not, it's not a looking back, like, um, it feels more like as the ride is going, I just know that, like, I know that things are falling away as fast as they're coming in. And so I just know that, and that is part of the isness of it.
And so. And so there's just always a way that that's there in the background, you know? But it's not like, it's not an [01:20:00] overwhelming, it's not grief that like, keeps me up at night. Right. It's just, I think part of the fabric of it all. That makes sense.
It's just, seems more like it's, it's an expression of love.
Yeah.
Your grief looks like poignancy, like Oh, the, the, the muchness of it is what it looks like. Yeah. Oh, there's so much. Yeah. And I feel that's how, that's what I feel about my son. I just think,
oh,
there's so much here. Oh, the, the, just the giant ness of it is almost overwhelming. Yeah. Grief is not the any word that I would put in there, but the muchness of it is like, wow.
Yeah, I like that. I like that a lot. Do you feel this way with your nephews, Eva Gr
Yes, but probably not as the, the
much, I think, [01:21:00] um, specifically the this, like much this like, oh my gosh, there's so much. This is, there's so much in this.
Um, when I'm with them, yes. But I can tell, and I, and also now that I'm here with Tom and you know, there's two little kids here, I, it's something that I needs to be experienced, I think in real time, like when you're with them and when you're with them.
I, I, I don't feel that as much when I'm, when I'm separate. That makes sense. That makes sense. It
is not an intellectual thing, it's a like
whole body.
Yes.
Much and a felt thing and a scene thing, and like an experience thing. You know, it's like when you hear them use the word suss and you're like, yeah,
yeah, yeah.
And there's just like an explosion of like Yeah. The, when he, the like, the, the, the slang thing is to me just this moment of like, uh, there's just an to your, the point of the muchness. Like it's just this explosion of 17 things happening at once. Like, how fun [01:22:00] for you that you're gonna have a whole slang that I don't even know about.
And also, thank God I spend too much time on TikTok. I gotta, I got a chance, you know, to keep up. And also like, how fun to figure out this new way of speaking and also like mm-hmm. What the fuck? And also like, like
where did you come from?
Yeah. And what else comes along with this that I'm entirely
unprepared for?
You know?
Yeah. Um, okay. I'm really loving this conversation. But I wanna take us in a different direction that I feel like I, for me personally, selfish reasons time wise. Yeah. Like I feel like I can't end this conversation without talking a little bit about farming and plants.
Oh wow. Right on. That's my second language.
I have no other second language. I speak English and I speak plant. That's it. That's what I got.
Well, so wait, what are the, when you say, again, I don't have a very good connecting question, but it's like when you're speaking the language of plants, what is that like for you? Yeah, [01:23:00] and the reason I wanna selfishly ask this question is because again, you know, I love, we both love, we have, you know, we love plants in nature.
And anytime I think having conversations about it is really good for the soul.
Hmm. Yeah. I think I'm, what I'm seeing in this, I. Relationship we're having on this show is how much I haven't thought about some stuff. 'cause you're asking me questions that are, seem really, that are good questions and I'm like, dude, I got nothing from you.
Like, like what is it like to speak plant like it's so integral and like intuitive and it's just the way it is. This that, I don't even know how to answer it. Except for, well I think it, it, yeah. It's
telling that like it's just the way that you are, you know? And so, yeah, like, I was born like this. I was born Well were you really
in love with plants?
Like really like the most coolest present [01:24:00] my mother could give me would be a house plant. Really?
Like
would be beg if we would go to Kmart, that's how old I am. We would go to Kmart and they had a little section in the K-Mart. You know, tiny little pots of little, well, like a po pathos. And I would just be like, oh mom, can we have another place?
Wait, did you grow up like on a farm as well, being a farm? Are you No, I grew
up in the suburbs, totally regular American suburbs. And did your parents think you were weird? Um, I don't know what my father thought of anything, so, but I think my mother at some point, like she got me a garden plot at the local, you know, like a rented, rented me a, my first garden plot, I think I was eight.
Whoa. Wow. So like, I don't know, she, so she did see it and she had, you know, we had a yard and she did stuff in the yard and I just love being outside. [01:25:00] And I'd love plants. And so she, that was my first garden. I was eight years old.
But So then how did that manifest in your life, like as you grew older, what does that mean to love plants so much that you're, you have your own garden at eight, like, because I, I think I'm curious because I have a deep love of plants in nature, but that didn't, unlike you.
It was something that I grew into. Mm-hmm. And I'm curious to know, like you having a much longer relationship with plants, just like, yeah. What did that look like in your life? Yeah, I think I'm just kind of jealous.
Aw. Um, I was, it it in this case, so I started with the indoor plants, but what really formed my life was.
That more plants are outside than inside. And so being outside for all the reasons, including plants, but just air and sun and dirt and all the wonderful things, like I just wanted to be [01:26:00] outside. And, and so, and again, this is interesting that it's my mom, right? Is that, uh, my very, very, very first paid job was to work at Great Falls Park outside and do meaningless bullshit.
But it was outside and I got, you know, $8 an hour or something. And then my mom said to me, Hey, you should go to this horticulture night at the local community college. There's gonna be people from the horticulture industry. I didn't even know that word. And you should go and listen. See what, what kind of work.
Is out there. And that's where a local farmer came and spoke about her farm. And I was completely blown away. Mm-hmm.
And I went
up to her, the who she was, right. Not just what she said, but who she was being as she talked about her life [01:27:00] of farming. I just fell in love with her and the whole thing. And I went up afterwards and I said, I wanna work for you.
And I did. And that's the woman. And how old were you in that? I was now 16, 15. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. And that became the person who I ended up farming with for 30 years. Wow. So it happened. So my shit happened so early and that, and I just grabbed on, like outside is where it's at with plants. So it's farming
for me.
Oh my goodness. I have so many thoughts about this one. You see, this is, this is what mean when I say I'm a little bit jealous, is that. Actually, there's a couple things I wanna clock from your story is that one, how, what a difference it can make to have adults or support in our life when you're young to give us these opportunities.
Like your mom. Yeah. Clearly saw something in you and then didn't like push you into it was just like, Hey, you seem like you're interested in this, [01:28:00] but, and here are some ways you can learn more. Here's the thing, right? Yeah. And then you can make, you wanna do it, make your own decisions. So that's really cool.
Yeah. And I can't, the other thing that I'm clocking is like, it seems, it makes me sad in a way that I even have to say this, but like, because points out how our lives are just not like this naturally, but like how, how I think important it is to be outside when we are younger. Just to Yeah, be outside.
It's just, it's so simple. But again, like when I look at my nephews, it's not the norm. You know? Like they have recess and you know, they're two boys, so they're active and they go and they ride their bikes, but it's not. I guess that's a version of outside, but they also spend a lot of time inside. Mm-hmm.
You know, and I think that's something that I feel like I wish I had more of when I was younger. Like, I think I would've, I'm not, I'm not, there's no like regret or anything, but it's like, um, I didn't spend a lot of time outside. Mm-hmm. And so it, [01:29:00] so, so my love of plants and all that came a lot later.
Mm-hmm. And I think there's something, I think it's truly therapy. I think it's good for the soul. I think it's good for the nervous system. I think it's good for the brain, it's good for the body. All of it. Just like being outside and I don't know, I don't know what I'm saying about that, but just like wanting to emphasize like if you have kids, like go, I don't know, ki Kylie, what do you think about like
your kids being outside?
Oh, I often have to pry mine to go outside with a crowbar and then they don't wanna come inside. Like, that's usually how it goes.
Yeah.
Um.
Uh, do you find, but isn't that true if everything that kids just wanna keep doing the thing that they're doing, isn't that true? All changes what they don't want, right?
Like, lemme just do the new thing. I just wanna do this thing.
Yes. Yes. I mean, like, a classic example is like, you need, you stink, you need to take a shower. And it's like, no, no. Then they get in there and it's like they stay until the water gets cold because they don't out. Right? Exactly. Yeah. Um, the, and Desi and I have actually had very explicit conversation about this because he will be like, you know, I'll have moments where his energy is just like too, too big for his body.
Right. And I can tell that he's just like having a hard time. [01:30:00] He's restless and like, nothing's actually catching his attention. He, he's, and then he's bored. He just starts like. I dunno, like throwing shit around the room, you know, just Right. And there was one time in particular where all that was happening and he was just like, clearly in a bad mood.
In, in part because of it. And then 'cause he was kept getting in trouble 'cause he was, you know, breaking shit. And we were annoyed and, and I kept feeling like, you gotta go outside. You gotta go outside. And, and he was just didn't want to. And then finally I was just like, it's actually not negotiable. Like, put on your shoes.
We're going outside. It's not to go right now. Yeah. And the second he put his feet on the porch, like we were still under the covered porch, his, the second his feet, I just watched his whole body soften. Mm-hmm. And I turned to him and I was like, you already feel better, don't you? And he was like, yeah. I was like, okay, let's remember this.
And I am telling that story because I am the one. Who's guilty of not fucking going outside feeling when they could really help and feeling weird and feeling annoyed and [01:31:00] feeling like, oh, I just have to get this done and then I'll feel better. And then I go walk five minutes outside in my silly suburban neighborhood and I'm like, oh, I just needed some trees.
Yeah, yeah. Yes. That was the problem.
Yeah. I mean, and that's, and that is true. I do think that's all of us, and this isn't like a thing that I think we need to feel guilty about, like, or that we're doing wrong. I think it's really just like the system of how things are set up, you know, like in, in our, in our neighborhoods and nuclear families.
But what I've been observing is like, so I, you know, I live in the jungle in Brazil and my partner's family is here with their two little kids. There's two little kids here, and it's been so cool to see them. I. Become so adaptable in nature. Like when they first got here, they like, you know, they're really young, they're three and five, and so we live on this huge mountain.
So like, they were all like falling over over the rocks and like, it was really tough for them for the first [01:32:00] week or so, and now they're just barefoot, like hooping up this freaking mountain. Like so strong. So like agileists, so agile, so natural. And I'm like, there's something here that's gonna be so good for them.
I'm not exactly sure what it's gonna, how it's gonna manifest, but I'm like, this just feels important, like a really nice experience for them to have. Mm.
And
I just, it's like this idea of rewilding, you know, people talk about rewilding yourself and I guess I'm just speaking to a longing that I think I would like that for myself and for more people and for my nephews, for more people.
From people I am from my nephews, you know, going back to wanting to come in with my agenda.
I think about, I experienced the same thing. Like I was in Atlanta, the middle of Atlanta for a conference and I had to go outside to take care of myself. And I saw this space of, but it was, and there were [01:33:00] two tours of kids.
It was near the aquarium in the middle of the city, and there was this park, but it was so sterile, like it was outside, and yet it was so sterile. It could have been like, it felt like being on a checkerboard. It was like. This is the best we can do with a, with a fucking park. It's just like, but then, then I feel like, oh, I'm just, I'm, I'm spoiled.
I'm, I'm privileged that I know that I have such easy access to such beautiful, not sterile outdoor spaces. Anyway, I'm, I totally agree with you, and I don't know how to do anything about it.
Mm-hmm. About helping
others find access to more outside time. And then I was gonna say to you, Kylie, I found with babies, even totally little, little, little babies, like [01:34:00] taking them outside changes everything.
Everything. It's, they're crying, they're upset and it's like, well, we need to go outside. And then, like, this is different. I can't, how doesn't, this is not always gonna fix it, but it often works.
Yeah, I can still see the little facial expression that Desi would make when he was like, I'm talking like three months old.
And you'd bring like, we are not that young. 'cause I guess it was winter, but like, uh, maybe five months old. Anyway, you'd bring him outside and there's this very Suzy way his eyes would close and he would get this little teeny smirk on his face. And Nick and I both were like, this is his, like little ah, outside his outside face.
I do wonder if some of us need it more than others. Like, I think it's good. I think outside is good for all of us, but I feel like, like I call Birdie my indoor cat. Not to her face, but I just, you know, between friends because she just, I mean, she will, she also like really loves to play, especially now that the weather's warm, she's like very happy and will just like play and do [01:35:00] chalk outside all day long.
But like, I can drag Desi for a walk in the woods and then he won't wanna go, but then he'll just be like on the adventure with me climbing every rock, you know, getting soaking wet in some stream that we find all that birth. It will last like 20 minutes and then be like, basically just sit down on the ground until you turn around to go back.
Like, she's just like, what is this exertion thing outside? But where there are bugs, like, and again, she's not like a, like afraid of bugs kind of kid, but it's just like, she's like, what are we doing and why? Um, yeah, I could see that. Which I love that energy
too, you know, like the little, yes.
And my sister-in-law is like a incredibly fascinating, brilliant, creative human being and has like, I could see her being like that, which I could see her being like that.
And my husband is also like, like we, like, again, we'll, like, we'll go outside, but I remember once I, we went camping, it was the third time we did a family camping trip, like with my extended family. And we got to the end of the trip. My husband was like, [01:36:00] I have tried, I I, I've given it my solid, you know, I, I've, I have, I have shown up and tried camping and I really don't.
Like it. Mm-hmm. And I was like him. Yeah, exactly. I was like, you are off the hook. That is true. You gave it the solid kick try. Um, well I also think because there's
different kinds of outside, you know, like I'm actually not a big camper either. Like I love nature and I will go camping and I actually enjoy it when I do, but like, there's d when I see, there was a meme that I saw that I was like, when I say I'm a nature girl, I mean this.
And it showed all these pictures of like, you know, being a fairy in the woods, like lying by a stream, like picking mushrooms, not this. And it was like pictures of like rain, you know, like a jeep right out. Yeah, yeah. With like, yeah. It's like different kinds of outside.
That's a good, that's a good distinction.
Yeah.
Yeah. Okay. But so Ellen, this might be of too big of a que it's like a very general question, but I'm gonna ask it anyway because I'm genuinely curious. So like, [01:37:00] what do you think your relationship is with nature now? How do you experience that on the day to day?
Yeah, so now it's, now my job is inside.
So when I switch from full-time farming to full-time, not farming, I spend way more time inside. And, and it hasn't been a problem, like it was, it's felt like, oh, okay, this is okay because I work from home. Mm-hmm. I can go outside for just a few, you know, like you just said, like, just step out and just stand in the sun for three or minutes or less and then come back in so I can feed myself very, very small bites.
Um, and then of course, as the weather gets better, like eat every meal outside, start trying to do some Zoom calls on the porch, you know? Um, and so that's, so I, I'm still really blessed to have so much [01:38:00] freedom. And it's felt, the main thing is not farming is less body pain.
Mm. You know,
after using your body to make your living has long-term ramifications.
And so it's felt really good to be like, I don't have to bend over to earn any money. Yeah. Maybe that sounds probably super weird in other contexts, but, um, we didn't talk about sex, which is interesting. Yeah. I just,
it snuck it, it snuck itself
to the end there. It's just snuck right in. Um, and what's been really fun for me, and this is not what, what you asked, I'm gonna just throw it in, is to garden.
So I've always had a yard with beautiful flowers and bushes and trees and mow the grass and all that stuff. I have that even more like several magnitudes of fucking amazingness of a yard. And I grow vegetables [01:39:00] just for me just to eat. Just because I love them. Yes. And there's no money involved. So I can express my full energy of what food plants I wanna grow and what beautiful flowers I wanna grow with economics completely taken away.
And that's been so fun for me. And I just wow. Love my garden. Wow.
Yes. Yes. I feel like that's your, that's your altar right there.
Yeah, it is. And this is the kind of altar where it's good to lay down. Like I forget, like I forget. Oh, I need to lay down on the ground. Like that is so good. Yes. Yeah.
Yeah.
That's just, just so interesting. Yeah. Coming from your world of farming, that must be quite new to be able to plant without the association of figuring out Yeah. The money. Yeah.
Yeah. Yeah. It's, yeah. I'd love to feed you some time. I'd love for you to, I'd [01:40:00] love, I'd love to see gardens with any of you at any Oh, that's so
sweet.
But I, yeah, I've never been to Brazil. I don't know really anything about it, but dude, it's like, it's a mother ship for plants.
Yes. It's wild out here and it's beautiful. And like the fertile
crescent for plants is is where you are, I think.
Yes.
Yeah.
Well, maybe one day you'll, I don't know. I'm trying, I'm trying to get Kylie to come to one of these treats one day and I think it, I eventually it'll happen.
Maybe you can come too. I've been, I've been keeping an
eye on you. Oh hoo.
And your,
and your retreats.
Nice. Should we do a round of joy? Ellen's glee about her garden and eat cooking, but growing vegetables for herself to eat felt very, uh, transitional into joy already. Yeah. Perfect. Do you wanna go first?
My love. What's something bringing you joy right now?
Well, you got two loves. Which one? Me. Oh, oh. You're, you're the, you're the, you're the guest. You're the, you're the special. I go [01:41:00] special guest love. Yes. Yeah. Um, I've been having such beautiful connections, um, in the last 10 days sort of start, you spun it off, you know, hanging out with Kylie.
Then I got another connector that I got to hang out with the next day, somebody else in our will Wise club. Then I had a beautiful interaction with my girlfriend Kathy, and then I had a great phone call with this other friend and just, and then the haircut lady, like that was such, anyway, that is, that's why I live.
Mm-hmm.
And that's what the world is. That's what existence is for me, is connection. It's so fundamentally important. It's just, that's my love language. That's my love. It's all there. Yeah. So it's amazing. A super, super full plate of, of [01:42:00] connection.
Yay. And here you are. Now. I know. And here I'm now.
Yes.
Thank you.
Thank you. And what about you, Kylie? What's something that's bringing you joy?
I have. So I feel like I have so many to choose from. The weather's finally getting warmer. It is a little like that tricky spring where it looks like it's really warm, but it's still fucking cold and windy. But even that, I think it's turning a corner soon.
Um, and I will, I have, have, I have a past and a future joy. So the past joy is when I went down to the Virginia, Maryland air area for like 36 hours. I got to have an a super, super awesome lunch with, um, Ellen. And then I gave my long-term client Emily Hazel. Her most recent episode on the podcast was great.
You should listen to it. Um, uh, we, I gave her like a, a one day retreat. She's having a baby any second now. Like literally this week I was like, are we having our call or are you having a baby right now? And we planned out her whole, like we, we did all this like really beautiful creat creativity and [01:43:00] creation for her maternity leave.
And then I got to have Passover Seder with her family. I'd never been to a Seder before. Wow. And it was just like, ugh. I just have these moments where I'm like, I cannot fucking believe that I get to that. This is my life. You know? Like, yep, this is my life that I get on a plane and I get to go see these people that I fucking love and make cool shit with them.
And, um, and I've just been feeling a lot of, like, a lot of pride lately for all the times in which it didn't make sense, but I kept saying yes. Um, because that's the only way you get to a place that doesn't make sense or like, like the, the, the, the, the goodness of this doesn't make sense in some, right.
And it's like, uh. You, you, yeah. You just have to, there were, there were so many moments where I, it didn't make sense to keep saying yes. And, um, and I did, and it's fucking great. Yeah. And not just 'cause of the external, [01:44:00] right. Because I have, I have a heart that can like, love it and be with it and be in it and receive it all.
And then the future joy is that, uh, on Monday I am delivering my children to their grandmother. And I am spending four nights, four nights, Monday, Tuesday, Wednesday. So three nights anyway. In a cabin in the woods. Yeah. A bunch In a cabin in the woods by, with a hot tub by myself. Oh my God. Yes. And I
can wait.
Wait. Um, I had had this like, hunger, hunger, hunger to be alone. In other words, like showing up as being annoyed at everybody. And just every time I would work, I would just be resentful of like any 15 minute thing on my calendar. Like it was like this voracious need for like, I need to be alone. I need to be alone for like a significant amount of time so that I can just, you know, be with whatever [01:45:00] creation is trying to like, burst on out.
And, uh, I can't wait. I can't wait. So that's next week.
That's, those are my, I'm so excited for you and I can't wait to hear you report or share, I don't know, share whatever might come up in that time. 'cause as a mom of two, having three nights of like to yourself is a miracle. Yeah.
That's hot. I know. Yeah, I know, I know, I know.
Hot. Yeah. All right, Eva, my beloved. What's bringing you joy right now?
Well, I feel like since we're given a laundry list, I'm just thinking about like moments from my life that have been very full and joyful. And I think last week I shared that one of my joys was like taking care of my health, but not from a place of attachment.
Just feeling like really caring for things that I need to be looking at. And, and continuation of that is I think my mornings, you guys, I mean, I've talked before, I love my slow mornings. Like it's such a privilege and I have just been really utilizing that time, [01:46:00] taking care of myself, like doing, like going, getting back into meditation, which I haven't been doing for a while.
And all, I don't know, I'm experimenting with all sorts of different like exercises and like spiritual practices and it just has become a time where I'm like, okay, I'm get to use this time to really like ground and center myself. And it's like very long and luxurious. And again, I'm like staring at the birds and like talking to trees and, and.
I don't know. It's just so, it's something, I don't know. Slow mornings are like what I live for, so, yeah. Mm-hmm. Beautiful. It's been really nice. And it always includes good food too. Sorry, I had to, had to make a, had to mention the good food. It's not a good morning if it, there's not good food.
Okay. Um, thank you so, so, so much for coming and pouring your heart into our show.
I'm so grateful for you in all the ways, in all the spaces and for being our guest [01:47:00] here today. It feels
dreamy, you know, to take part in something that I've been, you know, an observer of a a, you know, a far away participant, and to get into the soup pot is quite, quite an honor. Just as fun as I thought it would be.