Jessica Lanyadoo comes on the show for an honest look at American and global politics, through the lens of astrology. We discuss the nuances of community care, the importance of paradox, and the danger of certainty.
Jessica Lanyadoo comes on the show for an honest look at American and global politics, through the lens of astrology. We discuss the nuances of community care, the importance of paradox, and the danger of certainty.
Jessica:
https://www.lovelanyadoo.com/
https://www.instagram.com/jessica_lanyadoo/
Loving ourselves into power:
https://www.evaliao.com/lovingourselves
Eva's instagram: @iamevaliao
Book a discovery call with Eva
Kyley's Instagram: @kyleycaldwell
Join Kyley’s Facebook group: Monsters & Magic
Grab your ticket for Magic Circle
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Eva: [00:00:00] Hey everyone. Welcome back to another episode of Hello Universe. It's your co-host here, Eva, and we have an amazing episode for you today with the wonderful, the lovely, the delightful, even though she calls herself, , non optimistic. Jessica Lento, , many of you may know her from her podcast, ghost of a Podcast.
, she is a, an astrologer psychic medium, an animal communicator, and also really her Instagram account is just one of those accounts. It's just popping off. I love going there to get some [00:01:00] sort of, , well-informed astrology that's also deeply rooted in social justice, um, and self-care and community. ,
It's one of those, it's one of those accounts that you want to go to when you wanna be inspired and get some information, some good downloads for the week. And also maybe just have some giggles because again, Jessica is just, um, her personality is naturally infectious. And she's incredibly creative.
We had such an important conversation about many things. One of them being about the role that community care and being in community is gonna play for us in the next couple of years. I've been hearing, so I've mentioned before on the podcast, I'm not particularly astro literate like. I don't follow, you know, the sun and the, and the stars all that closely.
, but even from, you know, what I see briefly in pop spirituality, I've been hearing people talk about how we're entering a [00:02:00] stage of where, where, you know, community, , and sort of fighting against systems is going to be huge, huge thematically. And I'm like, yay, that sounds really great. Um, but what does that mean for us as individuals?
And I, you know, me being someone who is really invested in community, I just had a chance to ask, what does that look like? You know, as someone who is, um, from a seer, which, you know, Jessica is her thoughts on how to make this sustainable and actions that we can take. And we had this really amazing conversation about, um, our values versus our ideals, which, um, I have just been thinking about nonstop, so I am really excited for you guys to check this out.
So I'm really excited for you guys to check out this episode. Okay. Before we jump into this week's episode, I am so excited to share with you a new program that I'm working on with my close friend, Federico. Some of you may know Federico Petree from being on the episode a [00:03:00] couple times before.
, Every episode that he's been on, we've just gotten great feedback that like, you know, he's just an amazing being. Uh, Federico and I met through our medi meditation teacher's training program. , we met, , two times a week in our Songa for two years. And through that time I really got to know this amazing individual.
So it is such an honor to be working with him, to share our new program, loving ourselves into Power, which is really about. Self-love done right. And I feel like we're taking it back to self-love, which for me is like the basics. It's foundational, and it's also the basics because I think for me, that's where my self-love journey started.
And also what I am reminded of again and again, is that mastery level is actually just mastery of the basics. So, If you are someone who has had a complicated [00:04:00] relationship with your self-worth, your self-esteem and your self-efficacy, first I wanna start off by saying I see you because my core woundings, the stories that come up for me over and over again really have a lot to do with, , not a lot of it is self.
Efficacy, like not having the confidence, feeling like an imposter. , but of course the self-worth and really like the, the self-esteem stuff is, is all, meshed up in there. For me, a lot of it has to do with childhood trauma, feeling, , , of growing up in an unstable household. So this is work that I have been doing for myself for years and.
It's arguably some of the most important work because as we all know, the relationship that we have with ourselves is the thing that dictates our happiness and our joy and the ease in which we can move through life. If you are someone like me who has a raging, really, um, [00:05:00] berating self inner dialogue, loving yourself into power, I think is gonna be nothing short of informative.
And so when we talk about self-love, This isn't like, I think there's surface self-love, which is like affirmations and faking it till you make it. And sometimes we talk about self-care, which you know, is important. Self-care is important, but we're not talking like facials, you know, and manicures.
We're talking about getting down deep, deep, deep, deep, deep into a lot of the things that we talk about on this show, which is, um, emotional regulation, how to be with difficult emotions like shame and guilt and grief, um, and insecurity. It's a lot about reparenting ourselves. Um, it's nervous system work because all of these things are the things that create the stories that, you know, make up our relationship with ourselves and how we feel about ourselves.
And if we're feeling like we're too much and we take up when, you know, we're, we feel bad when we take up too much space or we're, or we're not enough, right? There's always that [00:06:00] vacillation between too much and not enough. It is a painful. Way to live. Federico and I have some similarities, some shared experiences with our traumas and our stories, and that's why we wanted, we landed on this program as what we wanted to share with other people who understand that this is a painful way to live because we truly believe that liberation and joy and ease are for everybody.
So doors are open right now for loving yourselves into power. Um, early Bird is for about until June 7th, so we're offering a special price for people who get in. Early spots are limited because we wanna make sure that this is a. Really intimate community experience where people can share and get to know one another and support one another.
Um, so if you are interested, if you have questions about what this looks like, you can DM me. I'm always happy to answer questions to see if this is the right fit for you [00:07:00] or go to our website. All the links will be in the show notes. Um, I'm really looking forward and hoping to see some of you there because this program I think is just gonna be life changing.
All right. And now onto our show.
Kyley: Hey, Jessica, welcome to the show.
Jessica: Thank you. I'm excited to be here. Thanks for having me.
Kyley: Yeah, we're so jazzed. Um, our kickoff question is always what is something that life is teaching you right now?
Jessica: Life is so instructional and I really struggle with that question because it's like I, I have like a scrolls list of things as opposed to a thing.
Kyley: Mm-hmm.
Jessica: Um, but you know, I would say a big lesson is around the pandemic and, you know, the collective response to it. Cognitive dissidents, like how people handle trauma.
I. [00:08:00] And, you know, as not people, like individuals, yes, that, but I'm, I'm referring to like at the supermarket on the bus, like in just in life. It's really, it's teaching me a lot about the world and myself and it's, it's like a really big thing that I think about. So, yeah.
Kyley: I love that. And I'm so grateful that you're bringing this up because sometimes I feel like there's this, like this, uh, this sense that like, well, it's over and we're all just moving
Eva: Yeah. Or there's like a dis, I feel a dissonance. I'm like, wait a second. That just happened. It wasn't that long ago, but we've all sort of like quote unquote Moved on.
Jessica: Uh, I mean, thousands of people are dying of every month, I think a thousand people a week in the US alone. Like, it's not done. People have long covid, people are getting sick, and we don't know what will happen. Like we, I mean, This is hopefully not too much of a divergence from what [00:09:00] and what we were planning on talking about,
but
Kyley: so just go
Jessica: okay.
I mean, I'm, I'm queen of divergence, so let's go. So, but you know, there's like studies where they've seen that people who had covid, whether they died of it or not, after they died, even if they didn't die of Covid, they died of something else. That covid remains in our organs, in our eyeballs, in our brain, in our cardiovascular system.
Like it's all throughout the body. And it just hasn't been in existence long enough for us to really know the long-term effects. And I'm old enough that I had chickenpox as a kid, so people who are younger than me, they, you know, you all got, I'm assuming you're younger than me, you all got like
Eva: I got,
I got, I got, yeah. I had chickenpox. Yeah.
Jessica: Your chicken box.
Okay. So, so you're, you're, uh, older than I thought. Okay, cool. So, but a lot of people don't really know about chickenpox because, you know, it was vax, people got vaccinated for it. But now, you know, I have friends who are in the early fifties and they've gotten shingles, which is what happens after you've had chickenpox is your body can give you shingles.[00:10:00]
And that's the, like the neurological, I'm not an expert in this, but like, you know, it's like a neurological outcome. It's like a bazillion years later, and then your body's like, ah, and something really serious can happen to you, and we don't know what will come of this, uh, disease. And I think, you know, in chickenpox don't, never killed a bunch of people.
So, I don't know, it really concerns me. Um, and it, and it also like, it, it, it. hurts to see how quickly even the most progressive people, um, threw away disabled communities or immune compromised people. I mean, uh, where is our care for the elderly? Where is our care for people who have cancer and other immune suppressing issues?
Where's our care for disabled people? You know, I, it really, it is something that that consumes m my thinking daily. And, um, and I'm really aware that most people are not thinking about it at [00:11:00] all, let alone every damn day. Every damn day. But, um, you know, you asked, so you got, you got the truth. That's what happened.
Yeah.
Kyley: I mean, I'm so glad that you're, I, I'm so glad that you're bringing this up and I think I have questions for you so that your daily thinking can have more space. Um, and I'll also add, one of the things that I have been thinking about on this topic is, is also our individual journeys, right? Like we all went through this like, Completely insane unforeseen experience where our world just shrunk the size of like five people.
And now we're on the, now we're, you know, for a lot of us on the other side of that, and like there's, um, I think there's limited space for even like witnessing, like I'm watching a lot about, um, I'm in a chapter that's a lot about like my relationships to people, right? And like allowing myself to open up to deeper intimate, like relationships with people.
And I can watch how much [00:12:00] covid me coupled with parenthood of small children was just like, it's not safe. Don't let anybody in. And now I'm in this process of like, no, but I really wanna be intentional about making it safe emotionally, energetically to like have this wider network. And, um, and I don't think I'm alone in that.
And having that like contraction expansion. But we're not talking about like, what does it mean to like have this expansion? So, um,
Jessica: And what did we go through in the isolation? What did we go through in the grief of whether or not, you know, you or me as an individual knew somebody who passed from Covid? What does it mean to have lived through this, this, you know, insane period where millions and millions of people died and we were washing the outside of our, you know, groceries and we didn't know what it would be and it wa didn't happen 15 years ago.
It just happened and we're still in it, even though a lot of people are, you know, pretending that it's over it, it's [00:13:00] still happening. And so there's not only been. No time to properly mourn. We actually don't have enough space from it to properly mourn. In order to have P T S D, you have to have the p the post, there's no post here.
And again, a lot of people are, are referring to it and thinking about it as post. But it's not post. And that actually keys into astrology because Saturn was an Aquarius. Um, and now it's in Pisces. And I, I didn't mean to just jump
Eva: Oh, no. Yeah. I want Give us, give us the connection.
Jessica: the connection,
Kyley: astrology, politics like you're,
Jessica: what we're here
Eva: Yeah.
This,
Jessica: do it.
Kyley: and confusing, then you will have nailed our trifecta.
Eva: yeah.
Jessica: Okay. Good. I'm in all, all in. So the, so Saturn moved into, so Saturn in astrology, let me just, I'm gonna pull all the way back and then I'm gonna go back in. Okay. Out in, okay. So [00:14:00] astrology, a lot of people think about is horoscopes, like, oh my God, who should I date?
And like, I'm a Gemini and that means X. But what astrology is, is using the movement of the planet. So using astronomy as a way to contextualize and understand generations of people, historical events, um, our individual nature, et cetera. And so in the early 19 hundreds, you know, there was a shift in the West towards horoscopes, um, and they got more marketed to women.
And so thus began the solidification of astrology. But, um, astrology. And there's nothing silly about being interested in relationships and in self-improvement, although again, it's marketed that way. Um, misogyny, uh, capitalism, just Okay. Just so we're clear. Okay. But, um, The, the thing about astrology is that it has historically been used, you know, in scholarly [00:15:00] ways and by like kings and such, and thus, and so I give you that little backdrop to say that a big part of how I work with astrology is not just to understand individual nature, but to understand collective conditions.
Now, the planet Saturn moves through the Zodiac. Um, it takes about 29 years to move all the way through the zodiac. And so the last time, so it was in, it entered into Aquarius right as we started socially distancing, and it just left Aquarius and has now moved into the Zodiac sign of Pisces just as it's over a k a collective cognitive dissonance.
Um, and what the Saturn in Aquarius. Transit taught us as a collective. Saturn is a planet that I should say is like related to heavy lessons, um, reality with the capital R, um, maturity, adulting, you know, all that
Eva: Saturn's return, [00:16:00] like any, yeah. Anyone
Jessica: heard of the Saturn return? Yes. So Saturn return is when you become an adult.
So before the Saturn return, you are in the adult phase of your childhood. And after the Saturn return, you're in the youth of your adulthood welcome. And so as a collective, every time Saturn moves through a new Zodiac line, we learn different lessons. Um, and of course it shakes down individually differently for everyone.
But the thing about C O V is because it was this global pandemic, it had us kind of all on the same page for a hot minute, or at least having the illusion of all being on the same KI page because of course we weren't all anyways. Anyways, again, capitalism. But um, The thing about Saturn's move through Aquarius is it had so much to teach us about technology.
We all started living online. So many people were able to like work from home because of technology and it empowered us to socially distance a k a, it forced us to socially distance. It's like depending on how you hold it, depending on the day. Right. And [00:17:00] as Saturn has moved just recently into Pisces, a lot of pros and cons, but one of the things are is that it, it's a, it's like lessons around having healthy boundaries.
And one of the ways that we learn healthy boundaries is by um, not having them. And a great way to not have healthy boundaries is to uh, you know, put on your shoes and your pants and your top and your hat and go outside and look at the sky and be like, that's neon pink. Right? Because you can't really cope with what is, if you're not acknowledging what is, cuz the sky's most probably blue.
Right? Um, and so this is like a big theme for the next two and a half years around, can we be realistic about where we are? Can we collectively care for each other? And, you know, in this period, I expect we will see in the ne over the next two and a half years arise in populous movements like socialism and communism.
[00:18:00] Um, the kind of concept of mutual aid will become more mainstream and, you know, we've seen it, we've seen it building, um, but this is not completely, uh, atypical of, of Saturn and Pisces. And then also I think we will see continued themes around, um, Christian nationalism, white Christian nationalism, and, uh, this kind of like movement towards purity, uh, which purity culture is always, it's always nope, it's always No.
Nope. Uh, and it's very seductive to people because after we've lived through so much trauma and we're not really pee, so we can't have P T S D yet, even though a lot of us have P T S D, you know, the, the thing that so many people are looking for is just a way to feel, okay, I've gone through so much, I just wanna feel okay
Eva: Yeah. Or feel safe, I think is oftentimes what people are looking for.
Kyley: and
Jessica: Safe, loved, connected,
Eva: Yeah.
Kyley: right? So like, yeah, purity. Purity promises, simplicity, right? So here we [00:19:00] are, like gone through this like totally kind of overwhelming, unprecedented for in our lived experience. Experience and what is more seductive than like, here's a nice tidy, linear story of good guys, bad guys.
You get to be the hero. And, um, and, and you know, I, I can see, um, I appreciate you putting this in the context cuz this was something that I was thinking about as I was driving my neighborhood observing blue lights in people's windows the other day. Um,
Jessica: Blue lights.
Kyley: so did you know, I learned this recently that if you, this is, I live in the suburbs of, of a very liberal state, but, um, uh, the, if people have a, like a, a dog whistle is essentially the blue light for your, um, like over like in your porch, like your win, your, like your like nighttime outdoor light
Eva: Mm-hmm.
Kyley: is like a code for Blue Lives matter.
Eva: Oh, really?[00:20:00]
Jessica: Oh,
Kyley: And then once my husband told me that, I
Jessica: oh,
Kyley: so sad in like the depths of my heart as I like go through my,
Eva: there a lot of that in your neighborhood? Wow. I've never, now I have to pay attention. I wonder if I paid a, I'm in Austin. I think it's way too liberal in Austin for that to be a
thing,
Kyley: I mean I live outside of Boston, you know, which like, I mean Boston is pretty
Jessica: Boston. I mean, Boston's not, not the most liberal place in the, I mean, Boston's very blue livesy.
Eva: Yeah. It's very blue. Yeah.
Jessica: It's very, I mean, yeah,
it's, very
Kyley: yeah, it's a, we're we're, we, our, our history with, uh, Boston. Boston loves to tell a story about the racism that lives everywhere else because here
Jessica: Boston is very racist.
Kyley: and it is racist as fuck. So yes, it is not surprising, but also like, hurt in my, it hurts deeply. So,
Eva: Yeah. Okay, wait, sorry, we really quick pause. I just realized my, I don't have my battery charged in my computer. Let, lemme grab my charger cause I'm about to die. Can you guys gimme like two seconds? Okay. No, I don't wanna die.
Kyley: [00:21:00] Moment to plug in actually. Um,
Jessica: That's awful. That is really, really disturbing.
Kyley: yeah, sorry. That you now also will see it.
Jessica: It's, I mean, I'm unlikely to see it in real life because I live in Oakland,
Eva: Wait, wait,
Kyley: Oh, okay. Yeah. You have a good chance of
Jessica: I mean, I don't think people are big fans of the cops out here. You know what I mean? When you know the, you know how the police sometimes they call and they're like, we're having the police, like they're doing fundraisers for cops.
I'm always, I always just say, oh, come on. You know, you know, I'm not gonna do this. Right. And like, and they just like the demoralization of these men who make the calls, they know this is not the place, it's not a Blue Lives Matter environment.
Eva: Okay.
Kyley: It's like also I imagine like when you were in the, if you work in an alumni office and your job is to like call alumni and you're calling the grad from like, uh, 18 months ago to be like, do you wanna make a donation? Like
Jessica: Good
Kyley: not,
Eva: So I have heard this, that in the next couple of years, I, I, I'm actually excited about this theme of like, socialism and, and the collective [00:22:00] coming together to make change. Just a quick sort of logistical question is, what is this connection with Pisces? Because Pisces, I think about is like emotions and sensitivity and art, art being creative.
Is there, is there any connection with Saturn being in Pisces?
Jessica: Yes. Yes, there is. And what you, we, when you said that, that's your association with Pisces, what you really meant was, that's my association with people who have the son in Pisces, who, when they were born, the son was in Pisces. And that's what people call Pisces people. Nobody's a Pisces or anything else, because we're not just our sunshine.
So hot, hot as side.
Eva: yes, yes, yes. Love that.
Jessica: in astrology, there's. The energetics and the meaning of, for instance, the Zodiac sign of Pisces, and then we can overlay that with the Zodiac sign of Pisces and the Sun. But that would be different than Zodiac sign of Pisces and the moon because context, right? It's like close on a hanger versus close on a person who it fits versus close on a person who it doesn't fit, right?
[00:23:00] So, so that's the starting point. The Zodiac sign of Pisces is essentially concerned with interconnectedness, us all being cousins, us all being our wellness, being interwoven. It is the zodiac sign that is associated with empathy, community care, mutual aid, idealism, escapism, cognitive dissidents. Um, it is high arts, high spirituality.
It's not religion, it's love of God or love of spirit, and, It's also Floopy Doopy, you know, it's like, wait, what time is it? I'm gonna be late. Wait, what? I can't find my keys. You know, very Pisces. So now that we have Saturn in Pisces, it's Saturn is teaching us lessons about the 3D lessons about maturity, lessons about adulting, lessons about community care in a different way, in a way that is more hierarchical and systems driven with the Zodiac sign of Pisces.
But [00:24:00] this transit of Saturn and Pisces does not happen in a vacuum. What's happening at the same time is there's another planet called Neptune, and Neptune Mo moves a lot slower than uh Saturn. Neptune is also in Pisces, and this is where things get really fucking interesting because. The, it is rare for the two planets, Saturn and Neptune to both be in Pisces at the same time.
The last time it was, oh my god, I have my notes. I can grab 'em. But I believe it was 1747 and it was at this time when 17 47, 48. I can glance at my notes if that's
Eva: we're, no, we're good. Yeah.
Jessica: we're good. Okay. So at that time it was when there were people led movements all across Europe and um, much of Asia and they were fighting monarchies and they were fighting for workers' rights and they were fighting for various forms of, um, the needs of the people in contrast clashing with, uh, the [00:25:00] ruling classes.
And that sounds good, right? Until you look at what happens in history, almost all of those movements lost. Almost all of those movements lost and they were all disconnected from each other. So you wanna keep in mind these people led movements. I mean, you couldn't communicate with like somebody in like Sicily and in Paris.
They weren't gonna have an easy time communicating, take a month or whatever to get from one place to another. So it wasn't a global world like we have now. So this is why these, all the movements, there was no coalition building outside of like your immediate community. Right? But the thing is, is that there was a lack of organization and then there was a major pushback by, um, the powers that be and, and people lost.
It didn't work. And so does that mean, and I didn't go far enough back in history to see the time previous because it was just like so far away. It felt like, I don't know how to like translate that to modern terms already 1747. You're like, wait, what? You [00:26:00] know, but. But just to say how, in how unusual it is for this trans, these two planets to be moving through Pisces at the same time.
And when we look back at history, what happened? A lack of realism, a lack of strategy actually hindered the people led movements and cognitive dissidents got in the way, eh? So the trouble here is that if we do not agree on what the problems are, we do not agree on what reality is. We will fritter away our energy and our resources and we will not be effective against the powers that be, that have nothing but organization and infrastructure.
They have no feeling about anything. All they're doing is preserving power and not, Wayne, what you're doing is, you know, I don't know, like, uh, patrolling your own big pile of money and stuff. It's not that hard of a job. It's a lot harder to create networks that are considerate and empathetic and inclusive.
Like that takes so much energy, especially if everyone is in [00:27:00] disagreement about something as simple as, is there a pandemic? Should we care about disabled or immune compromised people like just that. Again, this is why it demoralizes me because it, it, it, we are telling on ourselves without realizing it as a collective by not centering community care in the smallest of ways, um, which is masking i m o and it just tells me what's likely to happen over these next few years. The problem and the joy of astrology is that, In expert hands, it can give us a really clear sense of what is happening socially and politically, um, when it's happening, and the best ways to engage with it to get the best possible outcomes. But the bad part is we can see when terrible things are coming, and it's just like watching a freight train come right at you.
There's nothing you can do. You know, it's, it's really an intense thing. [00:28:00] So I saw Covid. I didn't see Covid, I saw an Airborne Pandemic coming, uh, like twenty sixteen, twenty seventeen. And so I started, um, putting on my Instagram stories and tell people, because what's the point? Sounds sensationalist, it's fear mongering, you know, all this kind of stuff. And I have no power. Like I'm, I don't work at the c d, C, you know? Um, and. Although, did you hear that podcast called Reveal about the c d C and what happens? Oh my God. Strong podcast recommendation Reveal did a, a three-part series on the Covid Pandemic and what was happening in the C D C. It is spectacular reporting, really worth listening to.
Anyways, um, yeah, write it down. Do, do. Um, but, uh, I, I distracted myself. I threw myself off the, the,
Kyley: You were saying, how do you put on Instagram? So you saw you were.
Jessica: I put on my Instagram stories and it's still there, like 9 1 1 supplies, like an an Aon list and it says don't shop at Amazon cuz Amazon's awful obviously, but [00:29:00] it's just like the easiest way to have a list.
So you see the products, brands, um, for Go Bags, just so people would have Go bags, you know, and I was just trying to think about like, what can I, what, what, what can I do? Like I, you know, it's, it's why I started my, my podcast in 2018 because I. With my skillset, what I can do is help people cultivate emotional tools for coping.
That's what I can do, because if you have good emotional tools, then it is much easier to do the right thing in a crisis. If you are living out of scarcity, if you are defensive, if you, you know, all these various things that we are, it empowers us to act wrong in the 11th hour when we is, when it's the most important to act.
Right. You know, that expression, hurt people. Hurt people is true. We do the worst. Each of us, the best of us do the worst when we feel our worst.
Eva: Yeah.
Jessica: So, you [00:30:00] know, uh, you know, All to say if we are going to be successful in this direction, that I'm excited about too, which is more of moving away from capitalism and fascism, which honestly, I don't know, T b D, best of luck, but you know, if we move away from that and towards more socialist movements, we're going to need to be organized and we're going to need each other and
Eva: I hear. Yeah. And I hear you saying it's a balance of practicality as well. We're gonna have to be practical and maybe there needs to be some leadership
Jessica: Mm-hmm.
Eva: that helps us merge the cogniti, the cognitive dis dissonance.
Jessica: Yeah, best of luck. This is the problem, isn't it? Because who's following who? And like back to what you were saying Kylie, about like people wanting simple answers. People turn to all manner of spirituality. Well, they'll often turn to politics wanting to there to be a golden egg. Like if I do this full new meditation, then it won't be lonely anymore.
If I vote for this [00:31:00] person, then I don't have to pay attention to politics anymore. And that shit is insane. That's not how anything works. You know, life is maintenance, life is processed, but people are burnt out. They're exhausted. And
Eva: because of systems. Yeah. And that can
Jessica: hundred percent yes. Yes.
Kyley: And sorry, Youk.
Eva: No, go ahead. Go ahead.
Kyley: Okay. And, okay, so, uh, I'm also thinking of Pisces Energy in my house cuz my son is a Pisces moon and my daughter's a Pisces son. So we get this like really delicious blend of, um, of it. And one of the things I observed for my son who, um, it is as you can imagine deeply, deeply, deeply sensitive, is also all the ways in which he, um, who's sticks will also try to create.
I watched ti, I watched moments where the, basically the feeling is too intense and I will watch him back, right? He's like, already for a little kid is like the king of like, you know, I'm, I, I, I'm fine. I'm not [00:32:00] feeling anything even as I could like, can see it. Right. Also, other times he's very, very open and he has incredible emotional intelligence.
So this isn't a black or white situation, but I've watched because he feels things so intensely that there is at times for him, a real, a real call to like simplify and, and create that like purity simplicity, right? Cuz it's like this is too hot to touch and so I'm gonna create simplicity and, and putting, using sweet little Dessy as an example here.
I think what I'm hearing you speak to is one of the ways that we move forward is allow ourselves to, to hold complexity, right? Is like, what is the answer to purity and fascism is actually to dance in the nuance of fucking paradox, right? And allow, and, and, and, and, and also to cultivate like safety. Like, so for me, I think of a lot of like the revolution as an inside job, right?
So like for me it's a lot of like what, what's happening internally that I can. And so like, how can I [00:33:00] create the, um, the nervous system that can hold things that are too hot to touch the, the how can I, like, um, how can I dance with paradox internally? And so, um, what's, one of the things I'm taking away as you're speaking is like, how do we work like a part of moving collectively, basically, interestingly, and paradoxically, how do you, how do you work collectively?
You have to allow for the nuance of like, we don't all agree. And also that gets to be okay. And also that is the thing that allows us to build something that's not pure in a fascist way, but also is like focus,
Eva: Yeah. And an improvement. And an improvement. You know, it may not be perfect because that doesn't. Exist, but can it be an improvement? And I think that's really, that's hard because I think idealism can also speaking from experience here, really get in the way.
Jessica: yeah, it really, it, it really does. It's interesting you use the word paradox on my year ahead every year at the, like [00:34:00] right at the near, I do a year ahead prediction episode. And, um, it's definitely worth listening to if you're into this kind of stuff. But I think I said several times in that episode, like this will be the year of paradox.
We need to step into paradox, um, that is Saturn and Pisces stepping into paradox and what's really challenging about being able to step into like not perfect, but good enough when we are coming from such an unequal system. And there are fascists in power right now in the us just speaking of the US alone, who are.
Doing everything they can to harm people of color, trans people, non-binary people, queer people, poor people, um, and people with uteruses, uh, or people who wanna birth, I should say, who can birth, wanna birth. Um, I, I, I mean, we're not all on an equal playing field. So our, our, our needs are different. And it's like, you know, some people's willingness to deal with, I don't know, [00:35:00] animal rights, but not racism is a fucking problem.
And especially on the left, right? And like woo spaces on the left, we see, you know, like, uh, a a lot of various, you can be not racist as to one group of people and very racist towards another. And, you know, and, and you can be not homophobic to gay, but really transphobic like this is the problem, is like, there's so many of us and we are looking for something that includes all of us and we should be, and yet, Is it realistic?
And this is why the right does better in terms of organizing, because they only care about one group of people. And it's easier when you're only advocating for one person, you know, than when you're trying to advocate for everybody. And again, back to like the, I mean, I don't know who's burnt out of politics right now and social justice stuff and all this.
I am, and I obsessively think about it every day still. I, it's just like we're all burnt out because it's exhausting. And, and I think, [00:36:00] you know, as an astrologer, there's an astrology to it all. There's an astrology of why now. And within that we can find kind of like what you were just referencing, like our own individual motivation and determination to do our own small part and, and within that to resist. The call for purity and perfection because it is ultimately a destructive white supremacist concept, and it leads us down destructive white supremacist roads, um, in the woo world, in the political world, in every fucking world. And that is a hard pill to swallow for a lot of people who are seeking the blue light, who are seeking peace, um, you know, and happiness.
And, and so again, we're back to more nuance, more paradox, more complexity. It's, it's quite a time to be alive and it's quite a fucking world, and humans are ridiculous.[00:37:00]
Kyley: We are. Yes. You know, I've been thinking a lot about, like you were talking about, you know, paradox and versus perfection, and I've been thinking a lot about like, what is the only like matter, the material that is quote unquote perfect is in like static doesn't change it's plastic. Right? Which we
Jessica: Hmm.
Kyley: plastic does like whatever, but like basically like why do we have microplastics in our water?
Because plastic quote unquote perfect static thing doesn't degrade, doesn't change, doesn't evolve, doesn't fluctuate. Right? So the whole idea of like purity, perfection, plasticity is, is toxic in like all of the fucking layers or whether you're looking at the actual material or the ideal of it. And it's such an allure in particular, I think capitalism loves to play with perfection because it loves to dangle the carrot in front of the stick, right?
Which is like,
Eva: cuz it keeps us stuck, you know?
Kyley: Yes. Right. Like your salvation is [00:38:00] right around the corner. You just have to get on vacation, you just have to retire. You just have to admit vote in the next election. Right? And it is like always perpetually the solution around the corner, um, where there is a perfect place. Right? I even think about like how the, our like, um, uh, our, our vision of heaven is like this, like, right?
The pearl gates actually went on this really super delicious shamonic journey once that, or I ended up at the Pearly gate and just like screamed and tore it all down. And like, in this journey, like, uh, like ripped, ripped open into Eden and then just like invited all the monsters in and was like, yeah, that's right.
This is our
Eva: Yeah.
Kyley: Fuck off anyway. Um, which I think I'm just trying to like point to, like my personal fascination was just like all the layers of which we have. Like we, um, yeah, we asked for like, I guess. Like what is the dance between the idealism [00:39:00] and the vision that that a Pisces Energy can have, right?
And that like we want the left to have, and also how do we hold that without grasping to static perfectionism that is actually toxic and death? I don't know an answer, but it's a
Jessica: Oh, I mean it, it is a great question and. I mean, I think from my perspective, astrology teaches us that the answer is being comfortable with not knowing. It's being comfortable. Failure and understanding that not knowing and failure is a part of every success and every answer. There's it. And again, this is, this is really, you know, easy to say and hard to live.
It's when we're in this state of I'm learning something that's challenging me, or I don't know if I'm learning something or if I hate this person and I disagree with them. Like whatever it is. When we're in this moment where we are having an emotional activation, [00:40:00] having the ability to know that we're being emotionally activated and to choose to stay present instead of to figure it out that.
That's the answer. If we can do that consistently, if we have, you know, waves of people doing that, things change. They, they have no choice but to change. The problem is reactivity and impatience, because we're so impatient to turn ideas into things, feelings into things. Everything has to be a thing.
Everything has to be profitable. And again, this is very American, very capitalistic, very modern thing. But it's a very real thing. And I don't know, I had more confidence in us before the pandemic, but again, this is why I think about the pandemic all the time because seeing how people are responding now, um, lets me know something I wish I didn't know.
And so, you know, I got, I got [00:41:00] unfortunately, I guess the, the, the other thing I'll say about this is, is that, we're so busy looking off at the horizon that we're not paying attention to what's happening right in front of us. Cognitive dissidents, right? It's like you, you wanna focus on what's happening in other places instead of right at your front door.
You know, that's something that I think we're all, we all need to like, kind of call ourselves into the moment to wherever we find ourselves and to make sure that we're, we're living in accordance with our values that we have values. You know, and astrologically, the way I describe the difference between Venus, which governs our values, and Neptune, which is the ruling planet of Pisces and governs our ideals, is that ideals are like stars in the night sky.
They light up the sky and they guide us. They, they illuminate the darkness, but we will not reach the stars. That's not actually what we're even supposed to do. We're meant to [00:42:00] be guided by them but not achieve them. They're perfection because they're not even real. The stars we see at night are not even real.
Like we're seeing like the shadow of a star or something like that, right? Stars back in time. Whereas values, Venus are like lampposts. They also light up this night Sky. They also illuminate the darkness, but you could get a tall ladder and you could take the light bulb out and put a new light bulb in.
They are achievable and attainable, so they function similar to ideals except for they can be embodied and managed in the material life in the 3d, and I think so many of us on all sides of all political spectrums. Um, we're fixated on our ideals and not our values, but our values are the ones to watch.
The, our values are the ones we can actually, at the end of our lives say I lived in accordance with my values, um, and mean it. [00:43:00] But a lot of people, I would say most people don't.
Eva: I'm like having very strong reactions to every, I'm like, I, like I've been uncharacteristically quiet. I'm usually. Chatty, chatty, chatty. But I'm really just like letting this all sink in because it's really, it's really applicable to my life in that I will tell you, listeners probably know in the beginning of this year, I made a huge life change where I moved to Austin to live on some property.
I'm like in an Airstream now, in hopes to, with our mutual friend Eliza, start a community. Let me
Jessica: idealistic.
Eva: very idealistic.
Jessica: Very idealistic.
Eva: And I'm learning so much about how it's hard, it's messy. There's conflict, it's not idealistic, you know what I mean? It's, it's, it's, it's, it's like, oh yeah, I have to deal with cockroaches and like, shit mule, like mule, mule shit and like, and conflict and you know, and I think that's good.
It's good for me to see, I wanna see like, is it actually gonna be as beautiful as I think it's gonna [00:44:00] be? Or is it some i, you know, fantasy. And the, what's this conversation is helping me with is like, And this has been a theme that's come up. It's like, just because it's messy doesn't mean you're doing it wrong.
Or doesn't mean that that's, that's that it's bad. Maybe that is the process. And going back to what you were saying, Kylie is like, okay, then how can I manage my own discomfort? Like, can I be comfortable in the discomfort? Right. That is so much of, of the, of, I think of our process and it's really easy for me to get to perfectionism actually.
Like I'm a, I'm a, I have high standards. And so there have been times where I'm like, wait, is this, you know, how is this wrong? Like, is is this not gonna work? You know, like, is this too idealistic? And I think going back to what you were saying Jessica, it's like, oh, if I could just be okay with the fact that it's not gonna be, we're not gonna agree, agree upon everything, but actually are we making small strides forward?
Like aren't we making incremental improvements? Yes, we [00:45:00] are. And if I can look at that, that is much more important. But it's uncomfortable though, and.
Kyley: And also what I'm hearing you say is like, cuz I have been feeling like actually depressed when I think about like the state of American politics, um, in a way that feels like hard to hold in my body. Right? Like that it has been a thing that I'm watching myself disassociate from. Right. There's been chapters in my life where I like, have chosen like, You know, when my kids were really little, where it was like mental health, like my world has to be right.
One being a total politics junkie to like actually, like my kid was, his, his due date was Trump's inauguration and it was like postpartum, Kylie needs a like, time out, right? But I can feel in this moment, it's more of disassociation of like, I, I, I can't, I'm scared of the outside world. Yeah. I just got tears into saying that, which is also still related to motherhood.
Right. Because it's like, what the fuck am I giving you all to like, right. Anyway, um, so I'm just like witnessing that, that, and so I'm grateful for this conversation cuz I, [00:46:00] I, I I appreciate that. It's like kind of pulling me into the thing that I have, you know, noticed that I've been kind of dissociating from.
Um, now it's hilarious cuz I'm talking about disassociation and completely forget the thing that I was gonna say next. So that's it. Um.
Jessica: Well, you know, I'll just throw in the mix, like whether it's like moving to a plot of land in Texas, very liberal state, I've heard, um, or, you know, being a parent, they're both ridiculously idealistic things to do until you do them. And then when you do them, they become real. And when they become real, all you can do as life throws you around, like that rollercoaster that makes you feel like you're gonna fall out, but they strapped you in.
But in real life, no one straps you in. All you can do is live in accordance with your values. You can, all you can do is your best because you have to fuck up when you're doing something idealistic. It. has to touch into those parts of you that are unrealistic. You can't have kids and not be [00:47:00] unrealistic. You can't move to do this thing you're doing, you know, in, in Austin ish. Um, and not be, you know, you have to, you have to remember that the reason why you do those things is because of love.
Because you wanna experience love because you have love, because you believe that you will have love if you do these things. That's the motivation for following your ideals. And when we're motivated by love, again, cognitive dissidents paradox, we're back to not wanting to see the shadow of love. What is the shadow of love?
It's grief. It's pain. It's hate. The opposite of love is apathy, but the shadow of love. Now, that's something else. Um, I think I, I think that like the conversation of like messiness is so important. It's so important. It's not possible to be happy all the time. It's not even a good goal. It's not possible to do well all the time.
Eva: It's not a goal goal. It's a terrible goal. It's
Jessica: a terrible goal.
Eva: like really putting this, I love taking like [00:48:00] ideas and putting them in like real life examples. Like if I was going for the ideal. I would've quit already. Like I would've, I already been like, this is, this is a mistake. Like I should leave.
Like that's, and I hear that's what you're saying about, um, this collective, you know, I dunno if I'd call it an uprising, but, uh, organization that we might be doing is that if we only focus on the ideal, it will fizzle out really fucking quickly. And in addition, I love what you're saying about ideals, ideals versus values.
I can give you a very real life example of like, my ideal is that we're gonna create this collective space for women to gather, and it's gonna be supportive. And, you know, the communication's gonna be beautiful and it's gonna be just like, you know, a restful space for women. But in reality, what's happened is there's been conflict.
And so my value is how can I be honest? Can I be honest and live in integrity and, you know, have the hard conversation, even if it's uncomfortable, or, or can I stand up for myself if it's uncomfortable? You know, all of these different things. And [00:49:00] when I look at my values, I feel actually a sense of. Relief Cause I'm, oh, I'm not, I'm not on the wrong track, like I'm doing the right thing.
But if I was just thinking my, my ideal, which is that like, this is supposed to be like a fairy land for whatever women to frolic. I'd be like, oh, we're totally fucking up. Like this is a disaster. And so,
Jessica: that, that you say that, cuz I'll tell you also, Venus and Astrology doesn't only govern values, it governs authenticity and it governs interpersonal dynamics and diplomacy. So it's kind of like you're in a real Venetian moment because it's really, you're dealing with that messiness and the truth is, the only way to create a safe place is to have it be safe for conflict. This idea that we have, and I think especially women have that. Safety and happiness and compatibility means being free of conflict. That means lying. You cannot be an honest person or have an honest relationship and never throw down, ever. I am a big, you know, when I, because I do couples counseling sometimes, and when I have couples come in and they're like, oh, we [00:50:00] never fight.
I'm always like, uhoh, this is gonna be hard work. Because if you're not fighting, you're not telling your partner the truth. And if you're in community with people and you're not, like when you chew with your mouth open, I wanna murder you with my fingertips. Like you don't have to say it that way for something that petty, but like if you don't find a way to communicate, like I need to eat separately for my mental health, like, then you're not gonna have a safe place because it can't be safe if it's pretty and pretty alone.
It has to be pretty, and it has to have a strong enough container to hold people kicking at it. Like, you know what I mean? And I think, again, this idea of idealism. Is where we're coming, coming back to, right? And, and at the end of the day, you know, we can have this nuanced conversation all we want. And there are people who are just like, how can we make prisons bigger?
You know, like, how can we make sure that trans people aren't safe anywhere? How can we make the most [00:51:00] money off of our lowest paid workers? It doesn't matter if they get sick, because we will make money off of them on the other side. Like, you know, as we have all these nuanced conversations, there are like really terrifying things happening.
Not to like, you know, make anything worse, but it's just, I think it's, it's really important to like have, this is okay, this is something I struggle with, so maybe I don't think it's important. This is what I struggle with, is like, I wanna keep in mind all the time when I'm like struggling with like, I'm really supposed to post on social media more and I'm really not doing it and I feel like about it or whatever.
If I pull back and think about the complexity of the, this country and then the complexity of what's happening globally, and then the complexity of the planet itself, and then the complexity of all the things I can't possibly even begin to think of or understand, then my problem gets smaller and it is a little more contextualized sometimes it makes me feel worse, and like everything I do is futile.
And then other times it makes me feel like, okay, it's [00:52:00] not the biggest deal. You know what I mean? And it just, it depends on my f oops, I'm so sorry.
Eva: all good.
Jessica: That's, that's torture. That was my compu my pocket computer. I'm so sorry. Um, but it really just depends on my, my mood. It doesn't depend, depend on reality. It depends on my mental state and
Eva: perspec and
Jessica: And I just think it's like exactly, exactly.
Kyley: are we using our pers are we using, right? Because you can use the zoom out perspective to be empowering, right? And is like this, like this is an important, like I can let myself a hook or you can zoom out exact same zoom out and be like, yeah, it's a piece of shit. Why are you so stressed out?
Because the world's a terrible place, right? And like, and so, uh, we can use story to tell whatever we right? We can use story, we can use the same set of data to tell a story that makes us feel like shit, or that feels empowering. Um,
Eva: Well, and that's where I think like, I mean, this is where I think the internal [00:53:00] responsibility is. Like we have a ch I think it's, I mean, people might argue that we don't, but I believe that we have a choice. Like how we respond to information is everything. That's the only thing that we have control over.
I mean, we all know this, right? Like and yeah, I mean, I mean, I really think. It's really that we can either be in reaction to something and then we feel like we are a victim. But I do think so much of the quote internal work is getting ourselves to a place where we can respond in a way that is liberating and supportive and loving rather than to toxic and, you know, making us feel really small.
Jessica: Mm. Yeah, I agree with that. hard. We're living through a really rough time.
Kyley: Yeah.
Jessica: We are. And, and I think, you know, kind of back to what you were saying at the very start, Kylie, it's just like this thing of like how we haven't coped and, you know, it's like so many people are like trying to be back to [00:54:00] normal when things are objectively not normal.
And, um, normal wasn't great
Kyley: Right. Like it was like what? Like the normal was shit.
Jessica: normal was really, really unfair. It was unsafe, it was dangerous, and it was going in this direction. And, you know, we haven't really touched on the, the climate crisis, but O M G, but should we, you know, like, I mean there's just, there's so much and it's all connected and, um, and I think, I think that it's really important that we find ways of kind of cutting ourselves some slack and coping without sticking our head in the sand.
Um, and that is, or sticking our head in the sand for, you know, a limited period of time and then ripping it out once we get too comfortable, right? Because, um, I just think honestly astrologically and also [00:55:00] just because I consume a lot of news, things are gonna get significantly worse.
Kyley: yeah.
Jessica: They're gonna get significantly, they set less safe for a lot of people and they're gonna get significantly worse. And that's if we don't have a World War. Right. Um, which I don't wanna, okay.
Yeah, sure I do. Okay. Um, so the planet Uranus, yet another planet in astrology is in the Zodiac sign of Taurus. And the last time that Uranus was in Taurus was World War ii. Um, and you know, we are going through a period where, you know, the burning of books and the banning of books and the coming for trans people, it's exactly what the Nazis did.
We are seeing the rise of fascism globally, and the world is more global, you know, and. We're in a really dangerous time, and the next several years are going to stay [00:56:00] dangerous, unfortunately, from a astrological viewpoint anyways. And so,
Eva: I wanna ask you an unfair question because it's, it's not an easy one answer. How do you, how do you feel then about, do you feel optimistic or do you feel, I guess, I guess my question, like, how do you feel about the future or the next phase that we're entering?
Jessica: Not optimistic whatsoever.
Eva: Okay. And so how do you cope with that? And you may not have a perfect answer, right. You know, like,
Jessica: there's no perfect answer. I mean, I struggle, um, because I'm very aware that there's a bunch of things I can do for myself and they may or may not actually be useful when the time comes. Because Did I have, like, when we go back to my little like, uh, thing I did on Instagram highlights?
Eva: Mm-hmm.
Jessica: Uh, yeah. And 95 masks weren't on there because I didn't know about them because it was, you don't know what you don't know.
Like, I didn't, I knew it was
Eva: lived through, you [00:57:00] hadn't lived through a pandemic before. So how would you, how would you have known.
Jessica: And, and even, you know, I mean like little ones like, you know, like swine flu and you know, like little things here and there in the US have come through, like teeny tiny ones. But, but I just would, I didn't know the word pandemic. I knew I described what a pandemic was, but I didn't have that word. You know, you just can't know what you don't know.
And anyways, so, um, it is very hard
Kyley: Yeah.
Jessica: to, you know, as an astrologer who sees things and whose looks, um, also I'm from refugees on both sides that, you know, come from war and blah, blah, blah. So, I, I, I, you know, I, I, I'm not an optimist on my optimistic days, um, but. Yeah, I, think everyone needs a plan. I think everyone needs a plan.
I think everyone needs a plan that doesn't just include them and their closest. Um, ideally,
Eva: I [00:58:00] really appreciate this answer, honestly. Like, I think especially I think in like the new age spiritual world, um, everyone and, and that's not a bad thing, but everyone wants to go to optimism. Like, I think it's great. Someone's like, Nope, I think everyone should have a plan.
Jessica: Yeah. I am not the one, I mean, and that's like we were talking about, like reviews online. You know, for my podcast, the, the negative review I get kind of over and over. Not, I don't get tons of them, but the ones that I have that are negative are almost always like, is this political podcast? Why is she so negative about things?
And it's like, well, mean, I don't, you know, talk about this with my partner sometimes. And, um, He sometimes will say to me, like, be more specific. Like, don't be vague about the things you see. And I'm like, I wish I didn't know. You know, and I don't, and I can't know. I don't know. Uh, until it's passed, I won't know.
Um, [00:59:00] you know, my, my accuracy, like my track record with these kinds of predictions are very good. Track record. That's terrible. It's ruining my life a little bit, you know what I mean? Um, so I don't, I don't wanna be specific because I don't think it's helpful because if I tell you the month that I think things are gonna get dire, how's it gonna improve your life?
It's not gonna improve your life.
Eva: Right. And I, I totally get that. I think that's where astrology can become, um, you know, like pop astrology. Your horoscope can actually become unhelpful because you know, it vers on superstitious, right? Then you become superstitious cuz then you're like, oh, this terrible thing is gonna happen this week and you're just walking on eggshells.
Jessica: And on and online, people who do. More political astrology will sometimes really be fixated on receipts, um, on being like, look, I predicted this thing and it happened on the state, and here's the receipts. And I get why people do that. And I'm not saying that it's wrong, but for me, I don't do that even when I'm right about very big things because it doesn't help anyone except for my ego, [01:00:00] you know?
And it might get me some interviews and some good publications, but that's the only thing it does. It doesn't actually help anyone. If I keep on bringing people's attention back to emotional coping skills, that helps. Nothing else helps. And so, you know, we have to ask ourselves like, what are we in it for?
And this is where, you know, my ideal is to have a wider scope of influence so I could influence more people, which would mean I would have to do some of the things that I think are out of alignment with my values in order to get to that ideal. But I'm always gonna choose my values over my ideals because my values are in a alignment with what is achievable and true and real on the day-to-day my ideals.
Like, I might think that a higher, bigger scope of influence is more important, but maybe a smaller scope of influence is more important if I'm actually reaching that smaller group more wholly. Like I, I don't wanna,
Eva: Yeah.
Jessica: you can't know what you don't know, but what I do know and what I always come back to is values [01:01:00] living in a line with values.
Eva: this, this is a really helpful framework I think
Jessica: Yay. Thank you. Thank
Eva: hopefully a lot of people,
Jessica: Good? Yeah.
Kyley: One of the things that I think about a lot, specifically as it comes to like my news consumption, is about my relationship with despair because. Despair helps nobody. Well, I think actually despair helps the status quo and the powers that be right. Like when, uh, and that's like kind of my, that's my tell when I'm like, you know, like, you eat too much sugar and you got a belly ache, like when I've consumed too much.
Um, and I like my, like the, the, the, the cavernous roar of despair is really loud. That's my clue to be like, okay, let's go lay in some grass, you know? Because, um, you know, I think one of the things that you're speaking to, especially as you speak to these planets that have this like slow, giant arc, right?
Is um, uh, the, like the epic pace of, of history, right? And like the, [01:02:00] the, the hugeness of the arc that we are just a like tiny blip in. And so, you know, what is that saying? Like the, I forget the phrase, but how like the, the arc of history points towards justice, right? Um, or at least I think has the potential too.
Um, But, um, but I think one, I I, I, I just think a lot about like my relationship to despair and when despair get, and like trusting that voice. And if despair gets too loud to like that something internally needs some nourishment around power and being empowered because when I am empowered, then I get to act from that place of like, like, you know, demanding change.
So for context, um, back, well last summer I had this moment of what it was, my summer was about to go to kindergarten and I had this moment of like, I'd been way on the fence listeners' notes. I've been on the fence for a while and I had this like, just like outrageous kind of maternal roar that was like, I, he's, I don't feel [01:03:00] safe, right?
Like, school shootings, violence. Like I, it is not, it does it just like, my whole body was like, Nope. And I got like, really, it was like one night that I got like really, really angry about it, kind of at my husband and also at the world. And my husband said something. Very compassionately was like, is this anger helping anybody?
And I remember, and I said to him, and I stand by this, like, if every mother was this angry, like this wouldn't exist. Right? If every mother felt safe. And I'm saying that mothers in particular, just because that's the place from which I stand, right? But pick your demographic. But, um, if every mother gave herself permission to be this angry, then the then and, and felt like safe and powerful being this angry, then like everything would change, right?
But despair robs us actually from the ability to be angry and the ability to like remember that we are powerful agents, even if our power feels fucking microscopic, right? And feels like Sian or whatever. But, [01:04:00] um, but I just, um, that's like coming out loud as we're sharing this is like, how do we track our relationship to despair versus power?
And when despair is loud, how do we nourish our ability to be powerful?
Jessica: Yeah, I, I mean, I think something that really comes up for me is I think it's healthy to feel despair and despairing situations. And again, it's important like, If you touch a hot stove and you don't burn your hand, something's wrong with you. And if you touch a hot stove and you emerge with a burn, then you are actually really healthy, and that's your body coping with the burn. Right. And to a certain extent, and this is a very unpopular opinion, but to a certain extent, I think despair is healthy because we are in desperate times.
You know, even, even as you're saying it, it's, oh, sorry.
Eva: it's just healthier than apathy, I think is,
Jessica: Yeah. I mean, it's healthier than [01:05:00] apathy, but I would say it's, we're talking about something like school shootings and you don't feel despair, at least for some period of time, then you're not taking it in. And the pathologizing of pain and anger I think is a problem.
I think those are human emotions to be coped with. And. I think some of coping with despair is leaving space for despair,
Kyley: Oh, to be for context, my whole thing is like, what's your fucking feeling? Like bring in the ugly emotions. I call them. Yes, I a thousand percent agree. Um, but I think in particular, like, and so for me, part of it also is like, what is the wisdom of this emotion? Right? And so for me, despair is my signal that I'm in need, right?
Like, not, not that despair is wrong, but despair is like, it's my, the wisdom it offers me is. Um, you are hungry to remember that you are, that you have access to power. And [01:06:00] so like, that's what it's call is. But yeah, to be clear, uh, I mean whether it's right or wrong is actually irrelevant cause you fucking feel despair.
So feel it and feel intimate and let it take you wherever it is that you need to go with it. Um, but uh,
Eva: But I think what as someone actually who was recently having a pity party for herself and like feeling really sorry for herself, I, I can notice like what you're speaking to Kylie is really helpful, is like, Despair is important. It means that your heart's open, right? And you are like you're saying, Jessica, taking it in. I think that's actually really beautiful cuz that's how we connect to the hu the humanity, like the human experience. But despair can either make you feel hopeless and helpless and defeated and then you are just in fetal position in your bed with a blanket over your head. And that helps no one. And that's a really shitty place to be.
And I've felt that way before, or despair [01:07:00] can catalyze you into being like, fuck this. You know what I mean? Or, or some type of power where you feel like maybe something needs to change. And I think, I don't know. You know, I mean I, I guess that's, I don't, is that a choice that one makes? I'm not really sure, but I think that is
Jessica: I think it's choice in nature. It's all, it's like, it depends on like what Kylie's saying about, like, that's my, it's like my inner bell being like, okay, you know, you've slipped out of where you're empowered. You know, that's different for everyone. It's not gonna be the same. For me, my, I have a really high capacity for despair.
I don't wanna brag, but very high capacity for despair. Um, I mean, I think there it's personality, I think it's culture. I think it's, I think it's a lot of things, you know, um, and at a certain point when we hit whatever our, like I can't tolerate anymore, like I am, I am on the floor emotions. I think that that's [01:08:00] where part of what we need is to ask for help.
You know, I mean I think that's, I think that again, we're talking about community building, we're talking about care and mutual aid and, and some of this is about recognizing that yes, if all the mothers of the world, like, and I know this was just an example, but if all the mothers in the world, in the country really stood up against gun violence, you know what would happen?
They'd pull our rights quicker and more harshly. We actually need the people with power, which are the fucking cis white dudes to be the ones. Cuz if they were all really like despairing, then it wouldn't be anymore. And all right, bye. You know, guns managed, you know, I think, I think again, it's like recognizing that we don't need to be always figuring it out for ourselves.
Sometimes we actually need to lean on the people closest to us or the people who have more power than us, or who just are having a better day, you know? And I think that that's, it's part of it, but. Like, how we kind of got here in our conversation is talking about the, the dis ultimately the [01:09:00] despair that we, I think all feel, certainly the three of us feel about the world.
And it's, it's just scary. And I, I, I really am scared about the world and I'm scared about what's coming. And I think that's a really healthy response to what I see. And I have a lot of friends who aren't that scared, and I think, I think they're bananas and I wanna give them banana cream sundaes every time I see them and be like, this is a metaphor.
Um, but I, but you know, I don't, because I don't have all those bananas, but I, it, you know, I mean, it's a, it's quite a world, you know, and I think we all are just needing to cope in the best way we can. And for me, fear and despair is catalyzing into determination. It makes me determined. know, we all just need to like, be honest about who we are and where we are and what we have the capacity for.
You know, my partner [01:10:00] has always said to me, uh, that being with me has taught him that everything is a near death experience. And I am very proud to say that I do believe that everything is a near death experience. And, uh, you know, a lot of people just could never bear to live like that. And that's great.
You know what I mean? Like, we get to be different. Well, I think we have to lean on each other in more honest ways and, you know, easier said than done, but that's, I think that's the,
Eva: I mean, I think that's the key. I mean, I think that's always been the key. You know, Audrey Lorde has a quote about there's no liberation without community. And I think that that's very true. So I'm actually happy we're like doing a call back to this community piece or, um, because I've, so I'm not, you know, I've mentioned earlier, I think, like, I'm not particularly astro literate, but I have heard already just so much about how this time is about, you know, community uprising, mutual aid.
That is very appealing to me. Um, [01:11:00] I guess I'd be curious if you have any thoughts on like, okay, what, what can we. What, okay. As an individual, I wanna know what do I do with that information? Is this like mean? Does that mean this is this is a time a catalyst where our actions have more weight? Or is it that, and this is where I also find astrology interesting.
Is it like, this is just gonna happen without us ever having to try because this is just the way that things will organically move and Yeah. Does that, I don't know. There's a question in there
Jessica: Okay. Yeah. Yeah, it's it. There's two questions in there. So one is, and different astrologers, we'll have a different take on this, but I am a big believer in predestine and free will. we are predestined to be in this time with these themes as terrible or wonderful as they are. But within that predestine, we have free will.
So I can look at a child's birth chart and see what will happen in their [01:12:00] parents' marriage, but it's wild. I can look at a child's birth chart and see what will happen in the future between the adults of like the parents of the child's, right? Mind blowing. And within that, those parents have free will, those parents have room, but it's within a container.
It's room within a container within Predestine, right? And I think the same thing is true for the world. So in terms of how to, so that's one answer to one question. The other answer to your other question is, There's two ways I could answer this other question. One is, if you wanna get like astro nerdy, what you do is you look at what transiting planets are activating within your birth chart, either by transit to other planets or through your houses, which for you, if you're like astro beginner, you definitely would hire an astrologer for that.
You wouldn't wanna just do it on your own because it's too complicated. But that is like the more technical way where you can see what's activated in your birth chart to see, okay, this [01:13:00] is what's pointing me in the, in this particular direction. So you could do that. The other thing you could do is simply know these are the themes.
There's so much idealistic, uh, uh, potential, and there's so much, uh, potential around collective coming together and activism and all this kind of stuff. And also there's the risk of not being realistic, of not building a stru, a foundation for a structure to be built upon, like, you know, like, or whatever it is.
So, okay, I'm gonna just keep that in mind when I'm like putting my head against a wall sometimes, you know, I'm gonna keep that in mind when I lost five days to like rolling around in the grass that's like, oh, that wasn't a loss that empowered me for the next three days where I'm gonna go and work hard.
You know, it's, it's about having this bigger picture perspective within which you can hold your own personal choices and lived experience. So, you know, for me, for me that [01:14:00] influences, I mean, and I have like a lot of information that I'm not sharing because of all the things I've talked about, right? Um, and time and all that. But for me it's like, there's certain things like, okay, remember when the little bird. Landed on Bernie Sanders podium back in the day when he was robbed of his nomination, whatever you think of him.
But, uh, you know, he was robbed. Um, but when that little birdie sat there and there's all those people and he just stayed there, I was like, okay, he's either gonna become the next president of the US or it'll be Trump because we were going to have a revolution one way or another. Right. And we are still living through revolutionary times, so we can know that there's gonna be revolution one way or another.
So we wanna get behind revolutionary transformations, whether it be in, within us, in our daily habits, um, in our coalition building, how we vote. [01:15:00] It goes on and on and on, right? But I think it's really about. Using this information to empower us to stay on path instead of to overwhelm or destroy us. And that means also knowing when to tap out, when to be like, all right, nope, nope, gotta live.
It got a boundary because again, Saturn and Pisces teaches us boundaries. What can we, what, what can we stay present for? I don't watch, um, violence and a lot of people like on TV and movies and stuff like that, and a lot of people will be like, oh, well it's not really violence. It's like, you know, she gets her vengeance against her perpetrator.
And it's like, well, but that's still violence. And you know, the reason why, you know, it sounds like a total left field, but like, the reason why I'm saying this is because it makes me feel bad. It stays with me. So I have a boundary. And the boundary is super annoying because everybody likes violent movies except for me.
And so I'm constantly having to like, leave the room or not go out with friends or like cover my eyes
Eva: I think the three of us could hang [01:16:00] out. Cause I think the three of us are all, we're
Jessica: Okay. We're
Eva: we're all sensitive.
Jessica: We're all sensing and you know, so, you know, it's like super, it's like something to manage, but it's worth it because it, it's like boundaries based on self-awareness.
Right. And I just think we need to apply that in lots of ways. Be willing to be a pain in the ass, be willing to be different, be willing to be inconvenient if you're doing what's in alignment, like what's with your values, you know, what you can take anyways. So that's my big, big fat answer to your questions.
Eva: No, it's great. I think that's super helpful and we'll inform how I move forward, I think in the next, I don't know, year and a half. Yeah. Whew.
Kyley: Do we do a round of joy?
Eva: How everyone's feeling. How's everyone feeling? I know we're coming up to our end time soon.
Kyley: Yeah. Yeah. Do you, do you wanna kick us off, pal? Something that's bringing you joy?
Jessica: Me.
Kyley: Oh yeah. You pal. Sorry.
Jessica: Okay. Okay. I was like, well, there's two of us. I don't know which one. Um, uh, what's bringing me joy honestly is, is my [01:17:00] garden. I'm just staring at it right now. Um, yeah. My, I have a, I'm very lucky to be in California and I have this three year old volunteer peach tree. I think this year we might get peaches that we can eat.
Maybe not, but it's got a lot of fruit. We had a very wet winter, which I'm in a, yeah. I live in a state of drought, so even though it was kind of a rough winter, it's like my garden doesn't know that my garden is overjoyed. Yeah. The rosemary is taller than me. It's like wild out here. So yeah. I'm really into my garden right now.
Yeah.
Eva: I actually just came back from California. Yeah. And everyone was talking about the super plume, but I had, I'm actually originally from California. I've never seen it so colorful. It was
Jessica: It's,
Eva: insane. It,
Jessica: it's because we finally had rain.
Eva: The rain. I mean, that's the, that's like the, I feel like there's a metaphor there somewhere, right?
Like with all the rain comes, all the fruits and the, and all the bounty.
Jessica: Exactly. Yeah.
Eva: cool. All right. Kylie, do you wanna share your
Jessica: What's you too joy?[01:18:00]
Kyley: Sure. Um, okay, so, uh, my husband's on a work trip, um, which I'm very happy for him. It's, he got this big invitation to do this thing. Um, and my mom came down to help me with the kids for the week, um, so that I could, you know, balance everything. And I am, first of all, just like so jazzed at my mom here. She's like, I'm just so eternally grateful for all the ways that she shows up to like, be supportive and be like a great mom and a great grandmother.
Um, but in particular she helped me. Like my house is from the, the. 1860s or 1840s, uh, the town hall burned. So we don't know for sure. And it has absolutely like no closets on the first floor, like teeny tiny closets upstairs. And I'm a cluttered person. Like I'm not a, I'm not, I'm not a tidy person. And then I have two small kids, so my house is just a perpetual like, tornado of shit.
And, um, and it's just been like making me [01:19:00] feel sad. Like I have felt sad in my own home because I have felt kind of overwhelmed by the mess and like, how do I navigate it? And even when I put everything away, it's still, there's nowhere for it to go. And, um, and so I kind of vented to my mom about this and she was doing this really sweet thing where she was like, offering solutions.
And I was like, no mom, I just need to be upset. I need you to hear me being upset and then we can solve the problem. She was like, oh, ok. Okay. She listened to event in Lowe's about all the, all the, you know, um, You know about it being overwhelming. And then she helped me solve the problem. And because she's also a like creature of intense adhd, chaos.
We literally like took out everything from every cabinet from two rooms. We moved furniture, we threw tons of things away. It's still an insane work in progress. Again, this is why I foreground that my husband is away because God bless him. This would be his worst fucking nightmare. Cause a d d I'm the queen of half-finished projects, right?
So like, we have like a Friday deadline to get this shit done. Um, but I woke up this morning and [01:20:00] walked downstairs into my kitchen and just felt so grateful. I felt like spacious. I felt I could just feel like my nervous system was happy. It was like, yes, look at all these clean lines bitch. You know, like, look at this like counter space that you made by moving this furniture.
So, um, my house, but in particular my mom being a great champion.
Eva: Um,
Jessica: That's sweet.
Eva: yeah, I love that for you, I'm, I hope come Friday it feels really good. I mean, it sounds like it already does, but
Kyley: Yeah.
Eva: cleanliness is yes. You know, I feel, I feel like it's, that spaciousness I think is important to me, so I get. Um, I will share my joy for the week, my joy for the week. I feel like this is my joy every time there's a new season, but there's a new season of Queer Eye Out and they just discovered and that show, show
Jessica: Do you just discovered the show or you just
Eva: discovered that the new season.
Yeah, they're in New, they're New Orleans now. And [01:21:00] um, honestly, it's just one of those shows they're, because of my like, sensitivity, like there's not a lot of shows that I can watch that are like,
you know, everyone keeps wa telling me to watch Beef. Beef is this like, you know, show with a bunch of like Asian Americans on Netflix.
And I'm like, oh, I should watch it. And I watched the first episode and it was like, ah, like so intense.
Jessica: I am actually so glad not to take away for your joy moment, but I'm so glad to hear you say that cuz I heard only amazing things, but it's so intense. It's like clearly so much about emotional pain and I'm like, I don't know if I, like, I have to be in the right state of mind for that.
Eva: Yes, yes, exactly. I'm like, I wanna watch it, I wanna support, I wanna love it. But bound, you know, boundaries, right? Like boundaries.
Kyley: yeah,
Eva: But queer eye is just so, I just love the, you know, the host. And I just love that it's, it just makes me happy. I mean, I do have questions. My like, inquisitive mind always goes, but is this really helpful?
Like, I sometimes wondered, do they just go in there and people are like on a high and then they leave and then maybe they're like sad again. I don't know. I do [01:22:00] question, but I will say I love the show and it brings me joy.
Kyley: yeah. I love
Jessica: saw, I saw the season and it was, it was a great
Eva: Oh, good. I can't wait. I'm just like, I'm like savoring them. Cause I know they're gonna, it's gonna end soon, so. Oh. All right, Jessica. This was amazing. Of course we knew it was gonna be, uh,
Jessica: I appreciate
Eva: Even, even though you wouldn't call yourself an optimist, you are a delight.
Jessica: Well, thank you. Definitely not an optimist. No one has ever called me one,
Eva: Which I
Jessica: I'll take delights. Thank. Thank
Eva: Um, where can people find you? How can they work with you? Why don't you share it with us? All
Jessica: Sure. And, and thank you so much for having me. This has been so much fun, and I know we went kind of deep and heavy, so thanks for doing it.
Eva: always do.
Jessica: okay, good. I'm glad. I'm glad I didn't, you know, drag
a,
Kyley: week's episode, last week's for context, last week's episode was literally making everyone listen to how I had this existential realization that nothing is real and everything is meaningless, and that that's the portal to liberation, to [01:23:00] like put you in context.
Jessica: and Pisces. Look at you just talking about Saturn and Pisces, like it's your damn job.
Kyley: Yeah. Yeah, so you're right on brands.
Jessica: Okay. Good, good, good, good. Okay. So, um, people can listen to my podcast, uh, it's called Ghost of a Podcast. There's episodes out twice weekly. Um, once on Sundays it's horoscopes, kind of like, you know, prediction stuff.
And then on Wednesdays it's a reading and the only way to get a reading with me is on my podcast. I'm not offering one-on-one readings anymore, um, because of cognitive dissidents and my inability to. Hang out there with people for too long. Um, so you can listen to the podcast, send me questions, uh, through the contact form on my website.
You can join me on Patreon, where I do lots of woo stuff. I teach tore astrology, psychic stuff, mediumship. It's all over the place. Um, and I also have classes for sale on my website and some cute swag for people who like cute clothes, um, [01:24:00] prints on demand, so it's not torturing the planet, just why. Um, but um, yeah, I think those are the things.
I have a book. I have a book. I've wrote a book if people are into books. Um, yeah. Okay. People are, people are into books. It's called, I Don't Have It Next to Me. It's called Astrology for Real Relationships. Do I have it? I don't have it next to me. It's called Astrology for Real Relationships, understanding You, me, and How we All Get Along and it's broken into three sections.
If you're a beginner, it works. If you're a pro, it works. Uh, first section is friends and chosen family. The second section is like early stages of dating, like dating, hooking up. And then the third section is long-term committed relationships and it's queer and gender inclusive. Um, and it's just good astrology.
So like, get it. And it's q I should, I mean, I'm, am I tuning my whole, but it's cute. It's got colors and emojis and it's cute. So
Eva: branding is like your ins, every whole branding is cute. Like your, your outfit right now is cute. Your glasses are cute. So I[01:25:00]
Jessica: Thank you. That's very nice. Uh, can I just tell you about these glasses for a minute? Uh, I'm almost 50 and I had to get progressives this year and I was like, Wolf, if I'm going to get progressives, I'm also going to get neon glasses. And I just wanna say like, age your own way. You know what I mean?
Just age your own fucking way. Yeah. Yeah.
Eva: Yes.
Jessica: But
Eva: a whole nother episode. That could be a whole nother episode. But yes, thank you for dropping that wisdom there.
Jessica: Yes. I just feel like I, I feel like I always just kind of got, I don't know. I like, I like dropping age because I feel like it's important for us to talk about more, more, more.
Eva: Yes, I agree.
Kyley: yes. Also, I wanna give a plug for your podcast because it is a delight and I haven't listened to it for years. So if you, if listeners are, you know, if you've enjoyed this for sure, go listen to the podcast and yes, underscore h your own way. I fucking love that. Thank
Jessica: Thank you very much.
Kyley: [01:26:00] Hey, love.
Eva: Hi.
Kyley: How are you?
Eva: I'm okay. How are you?
Kyley: I'm, I'm obsessed with your earrings.
Eva: Oh, thanks. I'm obsessed with yours. I've seen I, yeah, I've seen you wear them before. They're like, lovely. Oh, here she, here she comes. Hold on. Can you hear me okay?
Kyley: You can, yeah. Can you hear me?
Eva: Yeah. The AC in this Airstream is very loud, but
Kyley: Oh, no, I can't hear it at all.
Eva: Okay, good. I guess, I guess, um, yeah. Anyway. Hi. Hi. Hi.
Hi. Hi.
Jessica: Hi. Hi. Sorry.
Kyley: You're great. Hello.
Jessica: How are you?
Kyley: I'm obsessed with your picture of your manicure.
Eva: Of your nails.
Jessica: not my manicure. I wish it was. I, I was on a book tour and somebody showed up to my book signing with those nails and like a draw got a picture of me.
Eva: That's even better.
Jessica: it's way better. But also I would [01:27:00] never wear, I couldn't, I so gay. I have to wear my nails so short. It's just how it works. Yeah. I
Kyley: yeah. I think that was peak arrival. Peak painted your face on, uh, on their nails.
Eva: yeah,
Jessica: I mean, it's, I it was, it was remarkable. It was amazing. And it was right before the pandemic, so I got lucky. Let me just see. I'm so sorry. Let me just do a thing because this is, oh, that's better for me. I'm, I was too bright. I couldn't handle it.
Kyley: I gotta shut my, my kid just ran in and left the door open, so let me
Eva: it usually takes a few minutes. We're always kind of shuffling. I mean, honestly, the fact that we were kind of on time is already great.
Jessica: Okay, good. Okay, good. Good to know. And I always ask two questions at the start, which is, um, is cussing okay?
Kyley: Oh, encouraged.
Jessica: Okay, great. Yeah, I mean, I just, you know, if I don't ask, it'll be in my head. And then do you edit?
Eva: we do some slight editing. So yeah, we have an editor who takes out long pauses, like, you know, whatever you need to, if we need to go to the [01:28:00] bathroom, you spill a cup of water. You wanna take a long pause to think about your answer, like we can, we can fix that all up.
Jessica: Okay, great. Good. I mean, I don't usually need it, but I, it's nice for me to know if the, the answer's no.
Eva: Yeah. Totally. Good questions.
Jessica: Thank you very much.
Kyley: although for context, my favorite review of our podcast is our one, one star review, where the person is basically like, why are they swearing all the time, so,
Jessica: That's nice. My, all of my neg, most of my negative reviews are like, why is she so political? What is wrong with her? She's so political and I'm always like, Thank you also. Fuck you. I'm so confused.
Eva: Swipe. Swipe.
Jessica: Yeah, exactly. Yeah.
Kyley: yes,
Eva: Um, We were actually so excited to have you on here. I don't know if you know this, but the reason this connection happened was because one of our guests recommended, I think so. We, so we always ask our guests like, who should we have on the show? Who do you think would be like a good fit?
Like, you know us, who do you also love? And someone was like, you should get Jessica on the show. So that's
Jessica: awesome. I didn't know that. And [01:29:00] who was it?
Eva: Do you remember Kylie?
Kyley: No, no, my, my brain didn't remember that detail.
Jessica: Okay, we don't, we don't have to remember, but thank you Hansom, human person.
Eva: Yeah. Thank you.
Jessica: Very nice. Very nice.
Eva: Cool. Um, so I'm Eva, Kylie, just in case you want some pronunciation tips. Um, yes. Uh, we'll just go, go over the whole spiel. So we have like a, we're gonna do a hard cutoff at 90 minutes, which should be plenty of time. Um, Our first question, as you may know, is what's something that life is teaching you right now?
So that kind of just kind of opens up the conversation to our, our conver, our wi our conversations are very windy and conversational. They're less inter interview and more just like, let's go with the flow. Um, and at the end we'll do a round where we each answer the question, like, what's one thing that's bringing us joy?
Jessica: Okay.
Eva: Cool. Um,
Kyley: you already asked the questions about editing. That's the next [01:30:00] part of our spiel. Oh, and we'll do like a formal intro. We'll record a formal intro for you later. So we'll start and we'll just say, Hey Jessica, welcome to the show. And then you
Jessica: Butter being butter. Boom.
Kyley: there we go.
Jessica: Okay. Thank you.
Kyley: Anything else?
Eva: oh, actually, you know, I do wanna say one thing on my part. I don't know, Kylie. I'd be curious to know how you feel. I'm pretty not, I would say my astro literacy is not like I, it's not my, it's not like my jam. So I do think that's helpful context for like, Some, some explaining will probably be helpful if we do end up diver, you know, going deep into
Jessica: 100% of the time I am explaining because um, yeah, I mean if it's an astrologer, then they're even's still asking me to explain. So don't, no questions are stupid to me. You know, like ask anything. And if there's a question where I'm like, yeah, I'm not gonna answer that question cuz it's a bad question.
Here's a good question. that a lot. So you're good.
Eva: Love it, love it, love it. Okay, great.
Kyley: I think the thing you really want to know is
Eva: Yeah. Science of a good conversation actually, is what I think. Um, do you have any questions for us before we [01:31:00] get started?
Jessica: I asked my only two questions in advance. Yeah.
Kyley: Cool. Cool. All right, let's
Eva: Uh, Kylie, do you wanna kick us off?
Kyley: Sure, sure, sure. Okay. Um. Hey, Jessica, welcome to the show.
Jessica: Thank you. I'm excited to be here. Thanks for having me.
Kyley: Yeah, we're so jazzed. Um, our kickoff question is always what is something that life is teaching you right now?
Jessica: Life is so instructional and I really struggle with that question because it's like I, I have like a scrolls list of things as opposed to a thing.
Kyley: Mm-hmm.
Jessica: Um, but you know, I would say a big lesson is around the pandemic and, you know, the collective response to it. Cognitive dissidents, like how people handle trauma.
I. And, you know, as not people, like [01:32:00] individuals, yes, that, but I'm, I'm referring to like at the supermarket on the bus, like in just in life. It's really, it's teaching me a lot about the world and myself and it's, it's like a really big thing that I think about. So, yeah.
Kyley: I love that. And I'm so grateful that you're bringing this up because sometimes I feel like there's this, like this, uh, this sense that like, well, it's over and we're all just moving
Eva: Yeah. Or there's like a dis, I feel a dissonance. I'm like, wait a second. That just happened. It wasn't that long ago, but we've all sort of like quote unquote Moved on.
Jessica: Uh, I mean, thousands of people are dying of every month, I think a thousand people a week in the US alone. Like, it's not done. People have long covid, people are getting sick, and we don't know what will happen. Like we, I mean, This is hopefully not too much of a divergence from what and what we were planning on talking about,
but
Kyley: so just go
Jessica: [01:33:00] okay.
I mean, I'm, I'm queen of divergence, so let's go. So, but you know, there's like studies where they've seen that people who had covid, whether they died of it or not, after they died, even if they didn't die of Covid, they died of something else. That covid remains in our organs, in our eyeballs, in our brain, in our cardiovascular system.
Like it's all throughout the body. And it just hasn't been in existence long enough for us to really know the long-term effects. And I'm old enough that I had chickenpox as a kid, so people who are younger than me, they, you know, you all got, I'm assuming you're younger than me, you all got like
Eva: I got,
I got, I got, yeah. I had chickenpox. Yeah.
Jessica: Your chicken box.
Okay. So, so you're, you're, uh, older than I thought. Okay, cool. So, but a lot of people don't really know about chickenpox because, you know, it was vax, people got vaccinated for it. But now, you know, I have friends who are in the early fifties and they've gotten shingles, which is what happens after you've had chickenpox is your body can give you shingles.
And that's the, like the neurological, I'm not an expert in this, but [01:34:00] like, you know, it's like a neurological outcome. It's like a bazillion years later, and then your body's like, ah, and something really serious can happen to you, and we don't know what will come of this, uh, disease. And I think, you know, in chickenpox don't, never killed a bunch of people.
So, I don't know, it really concerns me. Um, and it, and it also like, it, it, it. hurts to see how quickly even the most progressive people, um, threw away disabled communities or immune compromised people. I mean, uh, where is our care for the elderly? Where is our care for people who have cancer and other immune suppressing issues?
Where's our care for disabled people? You know, I, it really, it is something that that consumes m my thinking daily. And, um, and I'm really aware that most people are not thinking about it at all, let alone every damn day. Every damn day. [01:35:00] But, um, you know, you asked, so you got, you got the truth. That's what happened.
Yeah.
Kyley: I mean, I'm so glad that you're, I, I'm so glad that you're bringing this up and I think I have questions for you so that your daily thinking can have more space. Um, and I'll also add, one of the things that I have been thinking about on this topic is, is also our individual journeys, right? Like we all went through this like, Completely insane unforeseen experience where our world just shrunk the size of like five people.
And now we're on the, now we're, you know, for a lot of us on the other side of that, and like there's, um, I think there's limited space for even like witnessing, like I'm watching a lot about, um, I'm in a chapter that's a lot about like my relationships to people, right? And like allowing myself to open up to deeper intimate, like relationships with people.
And I can watch how much covid me coupled with parenthood of small children was just [01:36:00] like, it's not safe. Don't let anybody in. And now I'm in this process of like, no, but I really wanna be intentional about making it safe emotionally, energetically to like have this wider network. And, um, and I don't think I'm alone in that.
And having that like contraction expansion. But we're not talking about like, what does it mean to like have this expansion? So, um,
Jessica: And what did we go through in the isolation? What did we go through in the grief of whether or not, you know, you or me as an individual knew somebody who passed from Covid? What does it mean to have lived through this, this, you know, insane period where millions and millions of people died and we were washing the outside of our, you know, groceries and we didn't know what it would be and it wa didn't happen 15 years ago.
It just happened and we're still in it, even though a lot of people are, you know, pretending that it's over it, it's still happening. And so there's not only been. [01:37:00] No time to properly mourn. We actually don't have enough space from it to properly mourn. In order to have P T S D, you have to have the p the post, there's no post here.
And again, a lot of people are, are referring to it and thinking about it as post. But it's not post. And that actually keys into astrology because Saturn was an Aquarius. Um, and now it's in Pisces. And I, I didn't mean to just jump
Eva: Oh, no. Yeah. I want Give us, give us the connection.
Jessica: the connection,
Kyley: astrology, politics like you're,
Jessica: what we're here
Eva: Yeah.
This,
Jessica: do it.
Kyley: and confusing, then you will have nailed our trifecta.
Eva: yeah.
Jessica: Okay. Good. I'm in all, all in. So the, so Saturn moved into, so Saturn in astrology, let me just, I'm gonna pull all the way back and then I'm gonna go back in. Okay. Out in, okay. So astrology, a lot of people think about is horoscopes, [01:38:00] like, oh my God, who should I date?
And like, I'm a Gemini and that means X. But what astrology is, is using the movement of the planet. So using astronomy as a way to contextualize and understand generations of people, historical events, um, our individual nature, et cetera. And so in the early 19 hundreds, you know, there was a shift in the West towards horoscopes, um, and they got more marketed to women.
And so thus began the solidification of astrology. But, um, astrology. And there's nothing silly about being interested in relationships and in self-improvement, although again, it's marketed that way. Um, misogyny, uh, capitalism, just Okay. Just so we're clear. Okay. But, um, The, the thing about astrology is that it has historically been used, you know, in scholarly ways and by like kings and such, and thus, and so [01:39:00] I give you that little backdrop to say that a big part of how I work with astrology is not just to understand individual nature, but to understand collective conditions.
Now, the planet Saturn moves through the Zodiac. Um, it takes about 29 years to move all the way through the zodiac. And so the last time, so it was in, it entered into Aquarius right as we started socially distancing, and it just left Aquarius and has now moved into the Zodiac sign of Pisces just as it's over a k a collective cognitive dissonance.
Um, and what the Saturn in Aquarius. Transit taught us as a collective. Saturn is a planet that I should say is like related to heavy lessons, um, reality with the capital R, um, maturity, adulting, you know, all that
Eva: Saturn's return, like any, yeah. Anyone
Jessica: heard of the Saturn return? Yes. So Saturn [01:40:00] return is when you become an adult.
So before the Saturn return, you are in the adult phase of your childhood. And after the Saturn return, you're in the youth of your adulthood welcome. And so as a collective, every time Saturn moves through a new Zodiac line, we learn different lessons. Um, and of course it shakes down individually differently for everyone.
But the thing about C O V is because it was this global pandemic, it had us kind of all on the same page for a hot minute, or at least having the illusion of all being on the same KI page because of course we weren't all anyways. Anyways, again, capitalism. But um, The thing about Saturn's move through Aquarius is it had so much to teach us about technology.
We all started living online. So many people were able to like work from home because of technology and it empowered us to socially distance a k a, it forced us to socially distance. It's like depending on how you hold it, depending on the day. Right. And as Saturn has moved just [01:41:00] recently into Pisces, a lot of pros and cons, but one of the things are is that it, it's a, it's like lessons around having healthy boundaries.
And one of the ways that we learn healthy boundaries is by um, not having them. And a great way to not have healthy boundaries is to uh, you know, put on your shoes and your pants and your top and your hat and go outside and look at the sky and be like, that's neon pink. Right? Because you can't really cope with what is, if you're not acknowledging what is, cuz the sky's most probably blue.
Right? Um, and so this is like a big theme for the next two and a half years around, can we be realistic about where we are? Can we collectively care for each other? And, you know, in this period, I expect we will see in the ne over the next two and a half years arise in populous movements like socialism and communism.
Um, the kind of concept of mutual aid will become more [01:42:00] mainstream and, you know, we've seen it, we've seen it building, um, but this is not completely, uh, atypical of, of Saturn and Pisces. And then also I think we will see continued themes around, um, Christian nationalism, white Christian nationalism, and, uh, this kind of like movement towards purity, uh, which purity culture is always, it's always nope, it's always No.
Nope. Uh, and it's very seductive to people because after we've lived through so much trauma and we're not really pee, so we can't have P T S D yet, even though a lot of us have P T S D, you know, the, the thing that so many people are looking for is just a way to feel, okay, I've gone through so much, I just wanna feel okay
Eva: Yeah. Or feel safe, I think is oftentimes what people are looking for.
Kyley: and
Jessica: Safe, loved, connected,
Eva: Yeah.
Kyley: right? So like, yeah, purity. Purity promises, simplicity, right? So here we are, like gone through this like totally kind of [01:43:00] overwhelming, unprecedented for in our lived experience. Experience and what is more seductive than like, here's a nice tidy, linear story of good guys, bad guys.
You get to be the hero. And, um, and, and you know, I, I can see, um, I appreciate you putting this in the context cuz this was something that I was thinking about as I was driving my neighborhood observing blue lights in people's windows the other day. Um,
Jessica: Blue lights.
Kyley: so did you know, I learned this recently that if you, this is, I live in the suburbs of, of a very liberal state, but, um, uh, the, if people have a, like a, a dog whistle is essentially the blue light for your, um, like over like in your porch, like your win, your, like your like nighttime outdoor light
Eva: Mm-hmm.
Kyley: is like a code for Blue Lives matter.
Eva: Oh, really?
Jessica: Oh,
Kyley: And then once my husband told me that, [01:44:00] I
Jessica: oh,
Kyley: so sad in like the depths of my heart as I like go through my,
Eva: there a lot of that in your neighborhood? Wow. I've never, now I have to pay attention. I wonder if I paid a, I'm in Austin. I think it's way too liberal in Austin for that to be a
thing,
Kyley: I mean I live outside of Boston, you know, which like, I mean Boston is pretty
Jessica: Boston. I mean, Boston's not, not the most liberal place in the, I mean, Boston's very blue livesy.
Eva: Yeah. It's very blue. Yeah.
Jessica: It's very, I mean, yeah,
it's, very
Kyley: yeah, it's a, we're we're, we, our, our history with, uh, Boston. Boston loves to tell a story about the racism that lives everywhere else because here
Jessica: Boston is very racist.
Kyley: and it is racist as fuck. So yes, it is not surprising, but also like, hurt in my, it hurts deeply. So,
Eva: Yeah. Okay, wait, sorry, we really quick pause. I just realized my, I don't have my battery charged in my computer. Let, lemme grab my charger cause I'm about to die. Can you guys gimme like two seconds? Okay. No, I don't wanna die.
Kyley: Moment to plug in actually. Um,
Jessica: [01:45:00] That's awful. That is really, really disturbing.
Kyley: yeah, sorry. That you now also will see it.
Jessica: It's, I mean, I'm unlikely to see it in real life because I live in Oakland,
Eva: Wait, wait,
Kyley: Oh, okay. Yeah. You have a good chance of
Jessica: I mean, I don't think people are big fans of the cops out here. You know what I mean? When you know the, you know how the police sometimes they call and they're like, we're having the police, like they're doing fundraisers for cops.
I'm always, I always just say, oh, come on. You know, you know, I'm not gonna do this. Right. And like, and they just like the demoralization of these men who make the calls, they know this is not the place, it's not a Blue Lives Matter environment.
Eva: Okay.
Kyley: It's like also I imagine like when you were in the, if you work in an alumni office and your job is to like call alumni and you're calling the grad from like, uh, 18 months ago to be like, do you wanna make a donation? Like
Jessica: Good
Kyley: not,
Eva: Yeah. It's like I'm still paying my, you know, it's like they're probably, they're still paying off loans, you know what I mean? Um, okay. Jennifer, can you edit out anything that needs to be edited out? Thanks. We'd like to leave a little message for our editor.[01:46:00]
Jessica: Mm-hmm.
Eva: Okay. Where were we? We were talking about, okay. I, so do you wanna pick up or, I have questions. Okay. So I have heard this, that in the next couple of years, I, I, I'm actually excited about this theme of like, socialism and, and the collective coming together to make change. Just a quick sort of logistical question is, what is this connection with Pisces? Because Pisces, I think about is like emotions and sensitivity and art, art being creative.
Is there, is there any connection with Saturn being in Pisces?
Jessica: Yes. Yes, there is. And what you, we, when you said that, that's your association with Pisces, what you really meant was, that's my association with people who have the son in Pisces, who, when they were born, the son was in Pisces. And that's what people call Pisces people. Nobody's a Pisces or anything else, because we're not just our sunshine.
So hot, hot as side.
Eva: yes, yes, yes. Love that.
Jessica: in astrology, there's. The [01:47:00] energetics and the meaning of, for instance, the Zodiac sign of Pisces, and then we can overlay that with the Zodiac sign of Pisces and the Sun. But that would be different than Zodiac sign of Pisces and the moon because context, right? It's like close on a hanger versus close on a person who it fits versus close on a person who it doesn't fit, right?
So, so that's the starting point. The Zodiac sign of Pisces is essentially concerned with interconnectedness, us all being cousins, us all being our wellness, being interwoven. It is the zodiac sign that is associated with empathy, community care, mutual aid, idealism, escapism, cognitive dissidents. Um, it is high arts, high spirituality.
It's not religion, it's love of God or love of spirit, and, It's also Floopy Doopy, you know, it's like, wait, what time is it? I'm gonna be late. Wait, what? I can't find my keys. You know, very [01:48:00] Pisces. So now that we have Saturn in Pisces, it's Saturn is teaching us lessons about the 3D lessons about maturity, lessons about adulting, lessons about community care in a different way, in a way that is more hierarchical and systems driven with the Zodiac sign of Pisces.
But this transit of Saturn and Pisces does not happen in a vacuum. What's happening at the same time is there's another planet called Neptune, and Neptune Mo moves a lot slower than uh Saturn. Neptune is also in Pisces, and this is where things get really fucking interesting because. The, it is rare for the two planets, Saturn and Neptune to both be in Pisces at the same time.
The last time it was, oh my god, I have my notes. I can grab 'em. But I believe it was 1747 and it was at this time when 17 47, 48. I can glance at my notes if that's
Eva: we're, no, we're good. Yeah.
Jessica: we're good. Okay. So at that time [01:49:00] it was when there were people led movements all across Europe and um, much of Asia and they were fighting monarchies and they were fighting for workers' rights and they were fighting for various forms of, um, the needs of the people in contrast clashing with, uh, the ruling classes.
And that sounds good, right? Until you look at what happens in history, almost all of those movements lost. Almost all of those movements lost and they were all disconnected from each other. So you wanna keep in mind these people led movements. I mean, you couldn't communicate with like somebody in like Sicily and in Paris.
They weren't gonna have an easy time communicating, take a month or whatever to get from one place to another. So it wasn't a global world like we have now. So this is why these, all the movements, there was no coalition building outside of like your immediate community. Right? But the thing is, is that there was a lack of organization and then there was a major [01:50:00] pushback by, um, the powers that be and, and people lost.
It didn't work. And so does that mean, and I didn't go far enough back in history to see the time previous because it was just like so far away. It felt like, I don't know how to like translate that to modern terms already 1747. You're like, wait, what? You know, but. But just to say how, in how unusual it is for this trans, these two planets to be moving through Pisces at the same time.
And when we look back at history, what happened? A lack of realism, a lack of strategy actually hindered the people led movements and cognitive dissidents got in the way, eh? So the trouble here is that if we do not agree on what the problems are, we do not agree on what reality is. We will fritter away our energy and our resources and we will not be effective against the powers that be, that have nothing but organization and infrastructure.
They have no [01:51:00] feeling about anything. All they're doing is preserving power and not, Wayne, what you're doing is, you know, I don't know, like, uh, patrolling your own big pile of money and stuff. It's not that hard of a job. It's a lot harder to create networks that are considerate and empathetic and inclusive.
Like that takes so much energy, especially if everyone is in disagreement about something as simple as, is there a pandemic? Should we care about disabled or immune compromised people like just that. Again, this is why it demoralizes me because it, it, it, we are telling on ourselves without realizing it as a collective by not centering community care in the smallest of ways, um, which is masking i m o and it just tells me what's likely to happen over these next few years. The problem and the joy of astrology is that, In expert hands, it can give us a really clear sense of what is happening socially and politically, [01:52:00] um, when it's happening, and the best ways to engage with it to get the best possible outcomes. But the bad part is we can see when terrible things are coming, and it's just like watching a freight train come right at you.
There's nothing you can do. You know, it's, it's really an intense thing. So I saw Covid. I didn't see Covid, I saw an Airborne Pandemic coming, uh, like twenty sixteen, twenty seventeen. And so I started, um, putting on my Instagram stories and tell people, because what's the point? Sounds sensationalist, it's fear mongering, you know, all this kind of stuff. And I have no power. Like I'm, I don't work at the c d, C, you know? Um, and. Although, did you hear that podcast called Reveal about the c d C and what happens? Oh my God. Strong podcast recommendation Reveal did a, a three-part series on the Covid Pandemic and what was happening in the C D C. It is spectacular reporting, really worth listening to.
Anyways, [01:53:00] um, yeah, write it down. Do, do. Um, but, uh, I, I distracted myself. I threw myself off the, the,
Kyley: You were saying, how do you put on Instagram? So you saw you were.
Jessica: I put on my Instagram stories and it's still there, like 9 1 1 supplies, like an an Aon list and it says don't shop at Amazon cuz Amazon's awful obviously, but it's just like the easiest way to have a list.
So you see the products, brands, um, for Go Bags, just so people would have Go bags, you know, and I was just trying to think about like, what can I, what, what, what can I do? Like I, you know, it's, it's why I started my, my podcast in 2018 because I. With my skillset, what I can do is help people cultivate emotional tools for coping.
That's what I can do, because if you have good emotional tools, then it is much easier to do the right thing in a crisis. If you are living out of scarcity, if you are defensive, if you, you know, all these various things that we are, [01:54:00] it empowers us to act wrong in the 11th hour when we is, when it's the most important to act.
Right. You know, that expression, hurt people. Hurt people is true. We do the worst. Each of us, the best of us do the worst when we feel our worst.
Eva: Yeah.
Jessica: So, you know, uh, you know, All to say if we are going to be successful in this direction, that I'm excited about too, which is more of moving away from capitalism and fascism, which honestly, I don't know, T b D, best of luck, but you know, if we move away from that and towards more socialist movements, we're going to need to be organized and we're going to need each other and
Eva: I hear. Yeah. And I hear you saying it's a balance of practicality as well. We're gonna have to be practical and maybe there needs to be some leadership
Jessica: Mm-hmm.
Eva: that helps us merge the cogniti, the cognitive dis dissonance.
Jessica: Yeah, best of luck. This is the [01:55:00] problem, isn't it? Because who's following who? And like back to what you were saying Kylie, about like people wanting simple answers. People turn to all manner of spirituality. Well, they'll often turn to politics wanting to there to be a golden egg. Like if I do this full new meditation, then it won't be lonely anymore.
If I vote for this person, then I don't have to pay attention to politics anymore. And that shit is insane. That's not how anything works. You know, life is maintenance, life is processed, but people are burnt out. They're exhausted. And
Eva: because of systems. Yeah. And that can
Jessica: hundred percent yes. Yes.
Kyley: And sorry, Youk.
Eva: No, go ahead. Go ahead.
Kyley: Okay. And, okay, so, uh, I'm also thinking of Pisces Energy in my house cuz my son is a Pisces moon and my daughter's a Pisces son. So we get this like really delicious blend of, um, of it. And one of the things I observed for my son who, um, it is as you can imagine [01:56:00] deeply, deeply, deeply sensitive, is also all the ways in which he, um, who's sticks will also try to create.
I watched ti, I watched moments where the, basically the feeling is too intense and I will watch him back, right? He's like, already for a little kid is like the king of like, you know, I'm, I, I, I'm fine. I'm not feeling anything even as I could like, can see it. Right. Also, other times he's very, very open and he has incredible emotional intelligence.
So this isn't a black or white situation, but I've watched because he feels things so intensely that there is at times for him, a real, a real call to like simplify and, and create that like purity simplicity, right? Cuz it's like this is too hot to touch and so I'm gonna create simplicity and, and putting, using sweet little Dessy as an example here.
I think what I'm hearing you speak to is one of the ways that we move forward is allow ourselves to, to hold complexity, right? Is like, what is the answer to purity and fascism is actually [01:57:00] to dance in the nuance of fucking paradox, right? And allow, and, and, and, and, and also to cultivate like safety. Like, so for me, I think of a lot of like the revolution as an inside job, right?
So like for me it's a lot of like what, what's happening internally that I can. And so like, how can I create the, um, the nervous system that can hold things that are too hot to touch the, the how can I, like, um, how can I dance with paradox internally? And so, um, what's, one of the things I'm taking away as you're speaking is like, how do we work like a part of moving collectively, basically, interestingly, and paradoxically, how do you, how do you work collectively?
You have to allow for the nuance of like, we don't all agree. And also that gets to be okay. And also that is the thing that allows us to build something that's not pure in a fascist way, but also is like focus,
Eva: Yeah. And an [01:58:00] improvement. And an improvement. You know, it may not be perfect because that doesn't. Exist, but can it be an improvement? And I think that's really, that's hard because I think idealism can also speaking from experience here, really get in the way.
Jessica: yeah, it really, it, it really does. It's interesting you use the word paradox on my year ahead every year at the, like right at the near, I do a year ahead prediction episode. And, um, it's definitely worth listening to if you're into this kind of stuff. But I think I said several times in that episode, like this will be the year of paradox.
We need to step into paradox, um, that is Saturn and Pisces stepping into paradox and what's really challenging about being able to step into like not perfect, but good enough when we are coming from such an unequal system. And there are fascists in power right now in the us just speaking of the US alone, who are.
Doing everything they can to [01:59:00] harm people of color, trans people, non-binary people, queer people, poor people, um, and people with uteruses, uh, or people who wanna birth, I should say, who can birth, wanna birth. Um, I, I, I mean, we're not all on an equal playing field. So our, our, our needs are different. And it's like, you know, some people's willingness to deal with, I don't know, animal rights, but not racism is a fucking problem.
And especially on the left, right? And like woo spaces on the left, we see, you know, like, uh, a a lot of various, you can be not racist as to one group of people and very racist towards another. And, you know, and, and you can be not homophobic to gay, but really transphobic like this is the problem, is like, there's so many of us and we are looking for something that includes all of us and we should be, and yet, Is it realistic?
And this is why the right does better in terms of organizing, because they only care about one group of people. And it's easier when you're only [02:00:00] advocating for one person, you know, than when you're trying to advocate for everybody. And again, back to like the, I mean, I don't know who's burnt out of politics right now and social justice stuff and all this.
I am, and I obsessively think about it every day still. I, it's just like we're all burnt out because it's exhausting. And, and I think, you know, as an astrologer, there's an astrology to it all. There's an astrology of why now. And within that we can find kind of like what you were just referencing, like our own individual motivation and determination to do our own small part and, and within that to resist. The call for purity and perfection because it is ultimately a destructive white supremacist concept, and it leads us down destructive white supremacist roads, um, in the woo world, in the political world, in every fucking [02:01:00] world. And that is a hard pill to swallow for a lot of people who are seeking the blue light, who are seeking peace, um, you know, and happiness.
And, and so again, we're back to more nuance, more paradox, more complexity. It's, it's quite a time to be alive and it's quite a fucking world, and humans are ridiculous.
Kyley: We are. Yes. You know, I've been thinking a lot about, like you were talking about, you know, paradox and versus perfection, and I've been thinking a lot about like, what is the only like matter, the material that is quote unquote perfect is in like static doesn't change it's plastic. Right? Which we
Jessica: Hmm.
Kyley: plastic does like whatever, but like basically like why do we have microplastics in our water?
Because plastic quote unquote perfect static thing doesn't degrade, doesn't change, doesn't evolve, doesn't fluctuate. Right? So the whole idea of like purity, perfection, plasticity is, is toxic in like all [02:02:00] of the fucking layers or whether you're looking at the actual material or the ideal of it. And it's such an allure in particular, I think capitalism loves to play with perfection because it loves to dangle the carrot in front of the stick, right?
Which is like,
Eva: cuz it keeps us stuck, you know?
Kyley: Yes. Right. Like your salvation is right around the corner. You just have to get on vacation, you just have to retire. You just have to admit vote in the next election. Right? And it is like always perpetually the solution around the corner, um, where there is a perfect place. Right? I even think about like how the, our like, um, uh, our, our vision of heaven is like this, like, right?
The pearl gates actually went on this really super delicious shamonic journey once that, or I ended up at the Pearly gate and just like screamed and tore it all down. And like, in this journey, like, uh, like ripped, ripped open into Eden and then just like invited all the monsters [02:03:00] in and was like, yeah, that's right.
This is our
Eva: Yeah.
Kyley: Fuck off anyway. Um, which I think I'm just trying to like point to, like my personal fascination was just like all the layers of which we have. Like we, um, yeah, we asked for like, I guess. Like what is the dance between the idealism and the vision that that a Pisces Energy can have, right?
And that like we want the left to have, and also how do we hold that without grasping to static perfectionism that is actually toxic and death? I don't know an answer, but it's a
Jessica: Oh, I mean it, it is a great question and. I mean, I think from my perspective, astrology teaches us that the answer is being comfortable with not knowing. It's being comfortable. Failure and understanding that not knowing and failure is a part of every success and every answer. [02:04:00] There's it. And again, this is, this is really, you know, easy to say and hard to live.
It's when we're in this state of I'm learning something that's challenging me, or I don't know if I'm learning something or if I hate this person and I disagree with them. Like whatever it is. When we're in this moment where we are having an emotional activation, having the ability to know that we're being emotionally activated and to choose to stay present instead of to figure it out that.
That's the answer. If we can do that consistently, if we have, you know, waves of people doing that, things change. They, they have no choice but to change. The problem is reactivity and impatience, because we're so impatient to turn ideas into things, feelings into things. Everything has to be a thing.
Everything has to be profitable. And again, this is very American, very capitalistic, very modern thing. But it's a very real [02:05:00] thing. And I don't know, I had more confidence in us before the pandemic, but again, this is why I think about the pandemic all the time because seeing how people are responding now, um, lets me know something I wish I didn't know.
And so, you know, I got, I got unfortunately, I guess the, the, the other thing I'll say about this is, is that, we're so busy looking off at the horizon that we're not paying attention to what's happening right in front of us. Cognitive dissidents, right? It's like you, you wanna focus on what's happening in other places instead of right at your front door.
You know, that's something that I think we're all, we all need to like, kind of call ourselves into the moment to wherever we find ourselves and to make sure that we're, we're living in accordance with our values that we have values. You know, [02:06:00] and astrologically, the way I describe the difference between Venus, which governs our values, and Neptune, which is the ruling planet of Pisces and governs our ideals, is that ideals are like stars in the night sky.
They light up the sky and they guide us. They, they illuminate the darkness, but we will not reach the stars. That's not actually what we're even supposed to do. We're meant to be guided by them but not achieve them. They're perfection because they're not even real. The stars we see at night are not even real.
Like we're seeing like the shadow of a star or something like that, right? Stars back in time. Whereas values, Venus are like lampposts. They also light up this night Sky. They also illuminate the darkness, but you could get a tall ladder and you could take the light bulb out and put a new light bulb in.
They are achievable and attainable, so they function [02:07:00] similar to ideals except for they can be embodied and managed in the material life in the 3d, and I think so many of us on all sides of all political spectrums. Um, we're fixated on our ideals and not our values, but our values are the ones to watch.
The, our values are the ones we can actually, at the end of our lives say I lived in accordance with my values, um, and mean it. But a lot of people, I would say most people don't.
Eva: I'm like having very strong reactions to every, I'm like, I, like I've been uncharacteristically quiet. I'm usually. Chatty, chatty, chatty. But I'm really just like letting this all sink in because it's really, it's really applicable to my life in that I will tell you, listeners probably know in the beginning of this year, I made a huge life change where I moved to Austin to live on some property.
I'm like in an Airstream now, in hopes to, with our mutual friend Eliza, start a community. Let me
Jessica: idealistic.
Eva: very [02:08:00] idealistic.
Jessica: Very idealistic.
Eva: And I'm learning so much about how it's hard, it's messy. There's conflict, it's not idealistic, you know what I mean? It's, it's, it's, it's, it's like, oh yeah, I have to deal with cockroaches and like, shit mule, like mule, mule shit and like, and conflict and you know, and I think that's good.
It's good for me to see, I wanna see like, is it actually gonna be as beautiful as I think it's gonna be? Or is it some i, you know, fantasy. And the, what's this conversation is helping me with is like, And this has been a theme that's come up. It's like, just because it's messy doesn't mean you're doing it wrong.
Or doesn't mean that that's, that's that it's bad. Maybe that is the process. And going back to what you were saying, Kylie is like, okay, then how can I manage my own discomfort? Like, can I be comfortable in the discomfort? Right. That is so much of, of the, of, I think of our process and it's really easy for me to get to perfectionism actually.
Like I'm a, I'm a, [02:09:00] I have high standards. And so there have been times where I'm like, wait, is this, you know, how is this wrong? Like, is is this not gonna work? You know, like, is this too idealistic? And I think going back to what you were saying Jessica, it's like, oh, if I could just be okay with the fact that it's not gonna be, we're not gonna agree, agree upon everything, but actually are we making small strides forward?
Like aren't we making incremental improvements? Yes, we are. And if I can look at that, that is much more important. But it's uncomfortable though, and.
Kyley: And also what I'm hearing you say is like, cuz I have been feeling like actually depressed when I think about like the state of American politics, um, in a way that feels like hard to hold in my body. Right? Like that it has been a thing that I'm watching myself disassociate from. Right. There's been chapters in my life where I like, have chosen like, You know, when my kids were really little, where it was like mental health, like my world has to be right.
One being a total politics [02:10:00] junkie to like actually, like my kid was, his, his due date was Trump's inauguration and it was like postpartum, Kylie needs a like, time out, right? But I can feel in this moment, it's more of disassociation of like, I, I, I can't, I'm scared of the outside world. Yeah. I just got tears into saying that, which is also still related to motherhood.
Right. Because it's like, what the fuck am I giving you all to like, right. Anyway, um, so I'm just like witnessing that, that, and so I'm grateful for this conversation cuz I, I, I I appreciate that. It's like kind of pulling me into the thing that I have, you know, noticed that I've been kind of dissociating from.
Um, now it's hilarious cuz I'm talking about disassociation and completely forget the thing that I was gonna say next. So that's it. Um.
Jessica: Well, you know, I'll just throw in the mix, like whether it's like moving to a plot of land in Texas, very liberal state, I've heard, um, or, you know, being a parent, they're both ridiculously idealistic things to do until you do them. And then when you do them, they become real. [02:11:00] And when they become real, all you can do as life throws you around, like that rollercoaster that makes you feel like you're gonna fall out, but they strapped you in.
But in real life, no one straps you in. All you can do is live in accordance with your values. You can, all you can do is your best because you have to fuck up when you're doing something idealistic. It. has to touch into those parts of you that are unrealistic. You can't have kids and not be unrealistic. You can't move to do this thing you're doing, you know, in, in Austin ish. Um, and not be, you know, you have to, you have to remember that the reason why you do those things is because of love.
Because you wanna experience love because you have love, because you believe that you will have love if you do these things. That's the motivation for following your ideals. And when we're motivated by love, again, cognitive dissidents paradox, we're back to not wanting to see [02:12:00] the shadow of love. What is the shadow of love?
It's grief. It's pain. It's hate. The opposite of love is apathy, but the shadow of love. Now, that's something else. Um, I think I, I think that like the conversation of like messiness is so important. It's so important. It's not possible to be happy all the time. It's not even a good goal. It's not possible to do well all the time.
Eva: It's not a goal goal. It's a terrible goal. It's
Jessica: a terrible goal.
Eva: like really putting this, I love taking like ideas and putting them in like real life examples. Like if I was going for the ideal. I would've quit already. Like I would've, I already been like, this is, this is a mistake. Like I should leave.
Like that's, and I hear that's what you're saying about, um, this collective, you know, I dunno if I'd call it an uprising, but, uh, organization that we might be doing is that if we only focus on the ideal, it will fizzle out really fucking quickly. And in addition, I love what you're saying about ideals, ideals versus values.
I can [02:13:00] give you a very real life example of like, my ideal is that we're gonna create this collective space for women to gather, and it's gonna be supportive. And, you know, the communication's gonna be beautiful and it's gonna be just like, you know, a restful space for women. But in reality, what's happened is there's been conflict.
And so my value is how can I be honest? Can I be honest and live in integrity and, you know, have the hard conversation, even if it's uncomfortable, or, or can I stand up for myself if it's uncomfortable? You know, all of these different things. And when I look at my values, I feel actually a sense of. Relief Cause I'm, oh, I'm not, I'm not on the wrong track, like I'm doing the right thing.
But if I was just thinking my, my ideal, which is that like, this is supposed to be like a fairy land for whatever women to frolic. I'd be like, oh, we're totally fucking up. Like this is a disaster. And so,
Jessica: that, that you say that, cuz I'll tell you also, Venus and Astrology doesn't only govern values, it governs authenticity and it governs interpersonal dynamics and diplomacy. So it's kind of like you're in a [02:14:00] real Venetian moment because it's really, you're dealing with that messiness and the truth is, the only way to create a safe place is to have it be safe for conflict. This idea that we have, and I think especially women have that. Safety and happiness and compatibility means being free of conflict. That means lying. You cannot be an honest person or have an honest relationship and never throw down, ever. I am a big, you know, when I, because I do couples counseling sometimes, and when I have couples come in and they're like, oh, we never fight.
I'm always like, uhoh, this is gonna be hard work. Because if you're not fighting, you're not telling your partner the truth. And if you're in community with people and you're not, like when you chew with your mouth open, I wanna murder you with my fingertips. Like you don't have to say it that way for something that petty, but like if you don't find a way to communicate, like I need to eat separately for my mental health, like, then you're not gonna have a safe place because it can't be safe if it's pretty [02:15:00] and pretty alone.
It has to be pretty, and it has to have a strong enough container to hold people kicking at it. Like, you know what I mean? And I think, again, this idea of idealism. Is where we're coming, coming back to, right? And, and at the end of the day, you know, we can have this nuanced conversation all we want. And there are people who are just like, how can we make prisons bigger?
You know, like, how can we make sure that trans people aren't safe anywhere? How can we make the most money off of our lowest paid workers? It doesn't matter if they get sick, because we will make money off of them on the other side. Like, you know, as we have all these nuanced conversations, there are like really terrifying things happening.
Not to like, you know, make anything worse, but it's just, I think it's, it's really important to like have, this is okay, this is something I struggle with, so maybe I don't think it's important. This is what I struggle with, is like, [02:16:00] I wanna keep in mind all the time when I'm like struggling with like, I'm really supposed to post on social media more and I'm really not doing it and I feel like about it or whatever.
If I pull back and think about the complexity of the, this country and then the complexity of what's happening globally, and then the complexity of the planet itself, and then the complexity of all the things I can't possibly even begin to think of or understand, then my problem gets smaller and it is a little more contextualized sometimes it makes me feel worse, and like everything I do is futile.
And then other times it makes me feel like, okay, it's not the biggest deal. You know what I mean? And it just, it depends on my f oops, I'm so sorry.
Eva: all good.
Jessica: That's, that's torture. That was my compu my pocket computer. I'm so sorry. Um, but it really just depends on my, my mood. It doesn't depend, depend on reality. It depends on my mental state and
Eva: perspec and
Jessica: And I just think it's like exactly, exactly.
Kyley: are we using our pers are we using, right? Because you can use the zoom out perspective [02:17:00] to be empowering, right? And is like this, like this is an important, like I can let myself a hook or you can zoom out exact same zoom out and be like, yeah, it's a piece of shit. Why are you so stressed out?
Because the world's a terrible place, right? And like, and so, uh, we can use story to tell whatever we right? We can use story, we can use the same set of data to tell a story that makes us feel like shit, or that feels empowering. Um,
Eva: Well, and that's where I think like, I mean, this is where I think the internal responsibility is. Like we have a ch I think it's, I mean, people might argue that we don't, but I believe that we have a choice. Like how we respond to information is everything. That's the only thing that we have control over.
I mean, we all know this, right? Like and yeah, I mean, I mean, I really think. It's really that we can either be in reaction to something and then we feel like we are a victim. But I do think so [02:18:00] much of the quote internal work is getting ourselves to a place where we can respond in a way that is liberating and supportive and loving rather than to toxic and, you know, making us feel really small.
Jessica: Mm. Yeah, I agree with that. hard. We're living through a really rough time.
Kyley: Yeah.
Jessica: We are. And, and I think, you know, kind of back to what you were saying at the very start, Kylie, it's just like this thing of like how we haven't coped and, you know, it's like so many people are like trying to be back to normal when things are objectively not normal.
And, um, normal wasn't great
Kyley: Right. Like it was like what? Like the normal was shit.
Jessica: normal was really, really unfair. It was unsafe, it was dangerous, and it was going in this direction. And, you know, we haven't really touched on the, the climate crisis, but O M G, but should we, you know, like, I mean there's just, there's so much and [02:19:00] it's all connected and, um, and I think, I think that it's really important that we find ways of kind of cutting ourselves some slack and coping without sticking our head in the sand.
Um, and that is, or sticking our head in the sand for, you know, a limited period of time and then ripping it out once we get too comfortable, right? Because, um, I just think honestly astrologically and also just because I consume a lot of news, things are gonna get significantly worse.
Kyley: yeah.
Jessica: They're gonna get significantly, they set less safe for a lot of people and they're gonna get significantly worse. And that's if we don't have a World War. Right. Um, which I don't wanna, okay.
Yeah, sure I do. Okay. Um, so the planet Uranus, yet another planet in astrology is in the Zodiac [02:20:00] sign of Taurus. And the last time that Uranus was in Taurus was World War ii. Um, and you know, we are going through a period where, you know, the burning of books and the banning of books and the coming for trans people, it's exactly what the Nazis did.
We are seeing the rise of fascism globally, and the world is more global, you know, and. We're in a really dangerous time, and the next several years are going to stay dangerous, unfortunately, from a astrological viewpoint anyways. And so,
Eva: I wanna ask you an unfair question because it's, it's not an easy one answer. How do you, how do you feel then about, do you feel optimistic or do you feel, I guess, I guess my question, like, how do you feel about the future or the next phase that we're entering?
Jessica: Not optimistic whatsoever.
Eva: Okay. And so how [02:21:00] do you cope with that? And you may not have a perfect answer, right. You know, like,
Jessica: there's no perfect answer. I mean, I struggle, um, because I'm very aware that there's a bunch of things I can do for myself and they may or may not actually be useful when the time comes. Because Did I have, like, when we go back to my little like, uh, thing I did on Instagram highlights?
Eva: Mm-hmm.
Jessica: Uh, yeah. And 95 masks weren't on there because I didn't know about them because it was, you don't know what you don't know.
Like, I didn't, I knew it was
Eva: lived through, you hadn't lived through a pandemic before. So how would you, how would you have known.
Jessica: And, and even, you know, I mean like little ones like, you know, like swine flu and you know, like little things here and there in the US have come through, like teeny tiny ones. But, but I just would, I didn't know the word pandemic. I knew I described what a pandemic was, but I didn't have that word. You know, you just can't know what you don't know.
And anyways, so, [02:22:00] um, it is very hard
Kyley: Yeah.
Jessica: to, you know, as an astrologer who sees things and whose looks, um, also I'm from refugees on both sides that, you know, come from war and blah, blah, blah. So, I, I, I, you know, I, I, I'm not an optimist on my optimistic days, um, but. Yeah, I, think everyone needs a plan. I think everyone needs a plan.
I think everyone needs a plan that doesn't just include them and their closest. Um, ideally,
Eva: I really appreciate this answer, honestly. Like, I think especially I think in like the new age spiritual world, um, everyone and, and that's not a bad thing, but everyone wants to go to optimism. Like, I think it's great. Someone's like, Nope, I think everyone should have a [02:23:00] plan.
Jessica: Yeah. I am not the one, I mean, and that's like we were talking about, like reviews online. You know, for my podcast, the, the negative review I get kind of over and over. Not, I don't get tons of them, but the ones that I have that are negative are almost always like, is this political podcast? Why is she so negative about things?
And it's like, well, mean, I don't, you know, talk about this with my partner sometimes. And, um, He sometimes will say to me, like, be more specific. Like, don't be vague about the things you see. And I'm like, I wish I didn't know. You know, and I don't, and I can't know. I don't know. Uh, until it's passed, I won't know.
Um, you know, my, my accuracy, like my track record with these kinds of predictions are very good. Track record. That's terrible. It's ruining my life a little bit, you know what I mean? Um, so I don't, I don't wanna be specific because I don't think it's helpful because if I tell you the month that I think things are gonna get dire, [02:24:00] how's it gonna improve your life?
It's not gonna improve your life.
Eva: Right. And I, I totally get that. I think that's where astrology can become, um, you know, like pop astrology. Your horoscope can actually become unhelpful because you know, it vers on superstitious, right? Then you become superstitious cuz then you're like, oh, this terrible thing is gonna happen this week and you're just walking on eggshells.
Jessica: And on and online, people who do. More political astrology will sometimes really be fixated on receipts, um, on being like, look, I predicted this thing and it happened on the state, and here's the receipts. And I get why people do that. And I'm not saying that it's wrong, but for me, I don't do that even when I'm right about very big things because it doesn't help anyone except for my ego, you know?
And it might get me some interviews and some good publications, but that's the only thing it does. It doesn't actually help anyone. If I keep on bringing people's attention back to emotional coping skills, that helps. Nothing else helps. And so, you know, we have to ask ourselves like, what are we in it for?
And this is where, you know, my [02:25:00] ideal is to have a wider scope of influence so I could influence more people, which would mean I would have to do some of the things that I think are out of alignment with my values in order to get to that ideal. But I'm always gonna choose my values over my ideals because my values are in a alignment with what is achievable and true and real on the day-to-day my ideals.
Like, I might think that a higher, bigger scope of influence is more important, but maybe a smaller scope of influence is more important if I'm actually reaching that smaller group more wholly. Like I, I don't wanna,
Eva: Yeah.
Jessica: you can't know what you don't know, but what I do know and what I always come back to is values living in a line with values.
Eva: this, this is a really helpful framework I think
Jessica: Yay. Thank you. Thank
Eva: hopefully a lot of people,
Jessica: Good? Yeah.
Kyley: One of the things that I think about a lot, specifically as it comes to like my news consumption, is about my relationship with despair because. [02:26:00] Despair helps nobody. Well, I think actually despair helps the status quo and the powers that be right. Like when, uh, and that's like kind of my, that's my tell when I'm like, you know, like, you eat too much sugar and you got a belly ache, like when I've consumed too much.
Um, and I like my, like the, the, the, the cavernous roar of despair is really loud. That's my clue to be like, okay, let's go lay in some grass, you know? Because, um, you know, I think one of the things that you're speaking to, especially as you speak to these planets that have this like slow, giant arc, right?
Is um, uh, the, like the epic pace of, of history, right? And like the, the, the hugeness of the arc that we are just a like tiny blip in. And so, you know, what is that saying? Like the, I forget the phrase, but how like the, the arc of history points towards justice, right? Um, or at least I think has the potential too.
Um, [02:27:00] But, um, but I think one, I I, I, I just think a lot about like my relationship to despair and when despair get, and like trusting that voice. And if despair gets too loud to like that something internally needs some nourishment around power and being empowered because when I am empowered, then I get to act from that place of like, like, you know, demanding change.
So for context, um, back, well last summer I had this moment of what it was, my summer was about to go to kindergarten and I had this moment of like, I'd been way on the fence listeners' notes. I've been on the fence for a while and I had this like, just like outrageous kind of maternal roar that was like, I, he's, I don't feel safe, right?
Like, school shootings, violence. Like I, it is not, it does it just like, my whole body was like, Nope. And I got like, really, it was like one night that I got like really, really angry about it, kind of at my husband and also at the world. And my husband said something. Very compassionately was like, is [02:28:00] this anger helping anybody?
And I remember, and I said to him, and I stand by this, like, if every mother was this angry, like this wouldn't exist. Right? If every mother felt safe. And I'm saying that mothers in particular, just because that's the place from which I stand, right? But pick your demographic. But, um, if every mother gave herself permission to be this angry, then the then and, and felt like safe and powerful being this angry, then like everything would change, right?
But despair robs us actually from the ability to be angry and the ability to like remember that we are powerful agents, even if our power feels fucking microscopic, right? And feels like Sian or whatever. But, um, but I just, um, that's like coming out loud as we're sharing this is like, how do we track our relationship to despair versus power?
And when despair is loud, how do we nourish our ability to be powerful?
Jessica: Yeah, I, I mean, I think something that really comes [02:29:00] up for me is I think it's healthy to feel despair and despairing situations. And again, it's important like, If you touch a hot stove and you don't burn your hand, something's wrong with you. And if you touch a hot stove and you emerge with a burn, then you are actually really healthy, and that's your body coping with the burn. Right. And to a certain extent, and this is a very unpopular opinion, but to a certain extent, I think despair is healthy because we are in desperate times.
You know, even, even as you're saying it, it's, oh, sorry.
Eva: it's just healthier than apathy, I think is,
Jessica: Yeah. I mean, it's healthier than apathy, but I would say it's, we're talking about something like school shootings and you don't feel despair, at least for some period of time, then you're not taking it in. And the pathologizing of [02:30:00] pain and anger I think is a problem.
I think those are human emotions to be coped with. And. I think some of coping with despair is leaving space for despair,
Kyley: Oh, to be for context, my whole thing is like, what's your fucking feeling? Like bring in the ugly emotions. I call them. Yes, I a thousand percent agree. Um, but I think in particular, like, and so for me, part of it also is like, what is the wisdom of this emotion? Right? And so for me, despair is my signal that I'm in need, right?
Like, not, not that despair is wrong, but despair is like, it's my, the wisdom it offers me is. Um, you are hungry to remember that you are, that you have access to power. And so like, that's what it's call is. But yeah, to be clear, uh, I mean whether it's right or wrong is actually irrelevant cause you fucking feel despair.
So feel it and feel intimate and let it take you wherever it is that you need to go with [02:31:00] it. Um, but uh,
Eva: But I think what as someone actually who was recently having a pity party for herself and like feeling really sorry for herself, I, I can notice like what you're speaking to Kylie is really helpful, is like, Despair is important. It means that your heart's open, right? And you are like you're saying, Jessica, taking it in. I think that's actually really beautiful cuz that's how we connect to the hu the humanity, like the human experience. But despair can either make you feel hopeless and helpless and defeated and then you are just in fetal position in your bed with a blanket over your head. And that helps no one. And that's a really shitty place to be.
And I've felt that way before, or despair can catalyze you into being like, fuck this. You know what I mean? Or, or some type of power where you feel like maybe something needs to change. And I think, I don't know. You know, I mean I, I guess [02:32:00] that's, I don't, is that a choice that one makes? I'm not really sure, but I think that is
Jessica: I think it's choice in nature. It's all, it's like, it depends on like what Kylie's saying about, like, that's my, it's like my inner bell being like, okay, you know, you've slipped out of where you're empowered. You know, that's different for everyone. It's not gonna be the same. For me, my, I have a really high capacity for despair.
I don't wanna brag, but very high capacity for despair. Um, I mean, I think there it's personality, I think it's culture. I think it's, I think it's a lot of things, you know, um, and at a certain point when we hit whatever our, like I can't tolerate anymore, like I am, I am on the floor emotions. I think that that's where part of what we need is to ask for help.
You know, I mean I think that's, I think that again, we're talking about community building, we're talking about care and mutual aid and, and some of this is about recognizing that yes, if all the mothers of the [02:33:00] world, like, and I know this was just an example, but if all the mothers in the world, in the country really stood up against gun violence, you know what would happen?
They'd pull our rights quicker and more harshly. We actually need the people with power, which are the fucking cis white dudes to be the ones. Cuz if they were all really like despairing, then it wouldn't be anymore. And all right, bye. You know, guns managed, you know, I think, I think again, it's like recognizing that we don't need to be always figuring it out for ourselves.
Sometimes we actually need to lean on the people closest to us or the people who have more power than us, or who just are having a better day, you know? And I think that that's, it's part of it, but. Like, how we kind of got here in our conversation is talking about the, the dis ultimately the despair that we, I think all feel, certainly the three of us feel about the world.
And it's, it's just scary. And I, I, I [02:34:00] really am scared about the world and I'm scared about what's coming. And I think that's a really healthy response to what I see. And I have a lot of friends who aren't that scared, and I think, I think they're bananas and I wanna give them banana cream sundaes every time I see them and be like, this is a metaphor.
Um, but I, but you know, I don't, because I don't have all those bananas, but I, it, you know, I mean, it's a, it's quite a world, you know, and I think we all are just needing to cope in the best way we can. And for me, fear and despair is catalyzing into determination. It makes me determined. know, we all just need to like, be honest about who we are and where we are and what we have the capacity for.
You know, my partner has always said to me, uh, that being with me has taught him that everything is a near death experience. And I am very proud to say that I do believe that everything is a near death experience. And, uh, [02:35:00] you know, a lot of people just could never bear to live like that. And that's great.
You know what I mean? Like, we get to be different. Well, I think we have to lean on each other in more honest ways and, you know, easier said than done, but that's, I think that's the,
Eva: I mean, I think that's the key. I mean, I think that's always been the key. You know, Audrey Lorde has a quote about there's no liberation without community. And I think that that's very true. So I'm actually happy we're like doing a call back to this community piece or, um, because I've, so I'm not, you know, I've mentioned earlier, I think, like, I'm not particularly astro literate, but I have heard already just so much about how this time is about, you know, community uprising, mutual aid.
That is very appealing to me. Um, I guess I'd be curious if you have any thoughts on like, okay, what, what can we. What, okay. As an individual, I wanna know what do I do with that [02:36:00] information? Is this like mean? Does that mean this is this is a time a catalyst where our actions have more weight? Or is it that, and this is where I also find astrology interesting.
Is it like, this is just gonna happen without us ever having to try because this is just the way that things will organically move and Yeah. Does that, I don't know. There's a question in there
Jessica: Okay. Yeah. Yeah, it's it. There's two questions in there. So one is, and different astrologers, we'll have a different take on this, but I am a big believer in predestine and free will. we are predestined to be in this time with these themes as terrible or wonderful as they are. But within that predestine, we have free will.
So I can look at a child's birth chart and see what will happen in their parents' marriage, but it's wild. I can look at a child's birth chart and see what will happen in the future between the adults of like the parents of the child's, right? Mind [02:37:00] blowing. And within that, those parents have free will, those parents have room, but it's within a container.
It's room within a container within Predestine, right? And I think the same thing is true for the world. So in terms of how to, so that's one answer to one question. The other answer to your other question is, There's two ways I could answer this other question. One is, if you wanna get like astro nerdy, what you do is you look at what transiting planets are activating within your birth chart, either by transit to other planets or through your houses, which for you, if you're like astro beginner, you definitely would hire an astrologer for that.
You wouldn't wanna just do it on your own because it's too complicated. But that is like the more technical way where you can see what's activated in your birth chart to see, okay, this is what's pointing me in the, in this particular direction. So you could do that. The other thing you could do is simply know these are the themes.
There's so much [02:38:00] idealistic, uh, uh, potential, and there's so much, uh, potential around collective coming together and activism and all this kind of stuff. And also there's the risk of not being realistic, of not building a stru, a foundation for a structure to be built upon, like, you know, like, or whatever it is.
So, okay, I'm gonna just keep that in mind when I'm like putting my head against a wall sometimes, you know, I'm gonna keep that in mind when I lost five days to like rolling around in the grass that's like, oh, that wasn't a loss that empowered me for the next three days where I'm gonna go and work hard.
You know, it's, it's about having this bigger picture perspective within which you can hold your own personal choices and lived experience. So, you know, for me, for me that influences, I mean, and I have like a lot of information that I'm not sharing because of all the things I've [02:39:00] talked about, right? Um, and time and all that. But for me it's like, there's certain things like, okay, remember when the little bird. Landed on Bernie Sanders podium back in the day when he was robbed of his nomination, whatever you think of him.
But, uh, you know, he was robbed. Um, but when that little birdie sat there and there's all those people and he just stayed there, I was like, okay, he's either gonna become the next president of the US or it'll be Trump because we were going to have a revolution one way or another. Right. And we are still living through revolutionary times, so we can know that there's gonna be revolution one way or another.
So we wanna get behind revolutionary transformations, whether it be in, within us, in our daily habits, um, in our coalition building, how we vote. It goes on and on and on, right? But I think it's really about. [02:40:00] Using this information to empower us to stay on path instead of to overwhelm or destroy us. And that means also knowing when to tap out, when to be like, all right, nope, nope, gotta live.
It got a boundary because again, Saturn and Pisces teaches us boundaries. What can we, what, what can we stay present for? I don't watch, um, violence and a lot of people like on TV and movies and stuff like that, and a lot of people will be like, oh, well it's not really violence. It's like, you know, she gets her vengeance against her perpetrator.
And it's like, well, but that's still violence. And you know, the reason why, you know, it sounds like a total left field, but like, the reason why I'm saying this is because it makes me feel bad. It stays with me. So I have a boundary. And the boundary is super annoying because everybody likes violent movies except for me.
And so I'm constantly having to like, leave the room or not go out with friends or like cover my eyes
Eva: I think the three of us could hang out. Cause I think the three of us are all, we're
Jessica: Okay. We're
Eva: we're [02:41:00] all sensitive.
Jessica: We're all sensing and you know, so, you know, it's like super, it's like something to manage, but it's worth it because it, it's like boundaries based on self-awareness.
Right. And I just think we need to apply that in lots of ways. Be willing to be a pain in the ass, be willing to be different, be willing to be inconvenient if you're doing what's in alignment, like what's with your values, you know, what you can take anyways. So that's my big, big fat answer to your questions.
Eva: No, it's great. I think that's super helpful and we'll inform how I move forward, I think in the next, I don't know, year and a half. Yeah. Whew.
Kyley: Do we do a round of joy?
Eva: How everyone's feeling. How's everyone feeling? I know we're coming up to our end time soon.
Kyley: Yeah. Yeah. Do you, do you wanna kick us off, pal? Something that's bringing you joy?
Jessica: Me.
Kyley: Oh yeah. You pal. Sorry.
Jessica: Okay. Okay. I was like, well, there's two of us. I don't know which one. Um, uh, what's bringing me joy honestly is, is my garden. I'm [02:42:00] just staring at it right now. Um, yeah. My, I have a, I'm very lucky to be in California and I have this three year old volunteer peach tree. I think this year we might get peaches that we can eat.
Maybe not, but it's got a lot of fruit. We had a very wet winter, which I'm in a, yeah. I live in a state of drought, so even though it was kind of a rough winter, it's like my garden doesn't know that my garden is overjoyed. Yeah. The rosemary is taller than me. It's like wild out here. So yeah. I'm really into my garden right now.
Yeah.
Eva: I actually just came back from California. Yeah. And everyone was talking about the super plume, but I had, I'm actually originally from California. I've never seen it so colorful. It was
Jessica: It's,
Eva: insane. It,
Jessica: it's because we finally had rain.
Eva: The rain. I mean, that's the, that's like the, I feel like there's a metaphor there somewhere, right?
Like with all the rain comes, all the fruits and the, and all the bounty.
Jessica: Exactly. Yeah.
Eva: cool. All right. Kylie, do you wanna share your
Jessica: What's you too joy?
Kyley: [02:43:00] Sure. Um, okay, so, uh, my husband's on a work trip, um, which I'm very happy for him. It's, he got this big invitation to do this thing. Um, and my mom came down to help me with the kids for the week, um, so that I could, you know, balance everything. And I am, first of all, just like so jazzed at my mom here. She's like, I'm just so eternally grateful for all the ways that she shows up to like, be supportive and be like a great mom and a great grandmother.
Um, but in particular she helped me. Like my house is from the, the. 1860s or 1840s, uh, the town hall burned. So we don't know for sure. And it has absolutely like no closets on the first floor, like teeny tiny closets upstairs. And I'm a cluttered person. Like I'm not a, I'm not, I'm not a tidy person. And then I have two small kids, so my house is just a perpetual like, tornado of shit.
And, um, and it's just been like making me feel sad. Like [02:44:00] I have felt sad in my own home because I have felt kind of overwhelmed by the mess and like, how do I navigate it? And even when I put everything away, it's still, there's nowhere for it to go. And, um, and so I kind of vented to my mom about this and she was doing this really sweet thing where she was like, offering solutions.
And I was like, no mom, I just need to be upset. I need you to hear me being upset and then we can solve the problem. She was like, oh, ok. Okay. She listened to event in Lowe's about all the, all the, you know, um, You know about it being overwhelming. And then she helped me solve the problem. And because she's also a like creature of intense adhd, chaos.
We literally like took out everything from every cabinet from two rooms. We moved furniture, we threw tons of things away. It's still an insane work in progress. Again, this is why I foreground that my husband is away because God bless him. This would be his worst fucking nightmare. Cause a d d I'm the queen of half-finished projects, right?
So like, we have like a Friday deadline to get this shit done. Um, but I woke up this morning and walked downstairs into [02:45:00] my kitchen and just felt so grateful. I felt like spacious. I felt I could just feel like my nervous system was happy. It was like, yes, look at all these clean lines bitch. You know, like, look at this like counter space that you made by moving this furniture.
So, um, my house, but in particular my mom being a great champion.
Eva: Um,
Jessica: That's sweet.
Eva: yeah, I love that for you, I'm, I hope come Friday it feels really good. I mean, it sounds like it already does, but
Kyley: Yeah.
Eva: cleanliness is yes. You know, I feel, I feel like it's, that spaciousness I think is important to me, so I get. Um, I will share my joy for the week, my joy for the week. I feel like this is my joy every time there's a new season, but there's a new season of Queer Eye Out and they just discovered and that show, show
Jessica: Do you just discovered the show or you just
Eva: discovered that the new season.
Yeah, they're in New, they're New Orleans now. And um, [02:46:00] honestly, it's just one of those shows they're, because of my like, sensitivity, like there's not a lot of shows that I can watch that are like,
you know, everyone keeps wa telling me to watch Beef. Beef is this like, you know, show with a bunch of like Asian Americans on Netflix.
And I'm like, oh, I should watch it. And I watched the first episode and it was like, ah, like so intense.
Jessica: I am actually so glad not to take away for your joy moment, but I'm so glad to hear you say that cuz I heard only amazing things, but it's so intense. It's like clearly so much about emotional pain and I'm like, I don't know if I, like, I have to be in the right state of mind for that.
Eva: Yes, yes, exactly. I'm like, I wanna watch it, I wanna support, I wanna love it. But bound, you know, boundaries, right? Like boundaries.
Kyley: yeah,
Eva: But queer eye is just so, I just love the, you know, the host. And I just love that it's, it just makes me happy. I mean, I do have questions. My like, inquisitive mind always goes, but is this really helpful?
Like, I sometimes wondered, do they just go in there and people are like on a high and then they leave and then maybe they're like sad again. I don't know. I do question, [02:47:00] but I will say I love the show and it brings me joy.
Kyley: yeah. I love
Jessica: saw, I saw the season and it was, it was a great
Eva: Oh, good. I can't wait. I'm just like, I'm like savoring them. Cause I know they're gonna, it's gonna end soon, so. Oh. All right, Jessica. This was amazing. Of course we knew it was gonna be, uh,
Jessica: I appreciate
Eva: Even, even though you wouldn't call yourself an optimist, you are a delight.
Jessica: Well, thank you. Definitely not an optimist. No one has ever called me one,
Eva: Which I
Jessica: I'll take delights. Thank. Thank
Eva: Um, where can people find you? How can they work with you? Why don't you share it with us? All
Jessica: Sure. And, and thank you so much for having me. This has been so much fun, and I know we went kind of deep and heavy, so thanks for doing it.
Eva: always do.
Jessica: okay, good. I'm glad. I'm glad I didn't, you know, drag
a,
Kyley: week's episode, last week's for context, last week's episode was literally making everyone listen to how I had this existential realization that nothing is real and everything is meaningless, and that that's the portal to liberation, to like put you [02:48:00] in context.
Jessica: and Pisces. Look at you just talking about Saturn and Pisces, like it's your damn job.
Kyley: Yeah. Yeah, so you're right on brands.
Jessica: Okay. Good, good, good, good. Okay. So, um, people can listen to my podcast, uh, it's called Ghost of a Podcast. There's episodes out twice weekly. Um, once on Sundays it's horoscopes, kind of like, you know, prediction stuff.
And then on Wednesdays it's a reading and the only way to get a reading with me is on my podcast. I'm not offering one-on-one readings anymore, um, because of cognitive dissidents and my inability to. Hang out there with people for too long. Um, so you can listen to the podcast, send me questions, uh, through the contact form on my website.
You can join me on Patreon, where I do lots of woo stuff. I teach tore astrology, psychic stuff, mediumship. It's all over the place. Um, and I also have classes for sale on my website and some cute swag for people who like cute clothes, um, prints on [02:49:00] demand, so it's not torturing the planet, just why. Um, but um, yeah, I think those are the things.
I have a book. I have a book. I've wrote a book if people are into books. Um, yeah. Okay. People are, people are into books. It's called, I Don't Have It Next to Me. It's called Astrology for Real Relationships. Do I have it? I don't have it next to me. It's called Astrology for Real Relationships, understanding You, me, and How we All Get Along and it's broken into three sections.
If you're a beginner, it works. If you're a pro, it works. Uh, first section is friends and chosen family. The second section is like early stages of dating, like dating, hooking up. And then the third section is long-term committed relationships and it's queer and gender inclusive. Um, and it's just good astrology.
So like, get it. And it's q I should, I mean, I'm, am I tuning my whole, but it's cute. It's got colors and emojis and it's cute. So
Eva: branding is like your ins, every whole branding is cute. Like your, your outfit right now is cute. Your glasses are cute. So I
Jessica: Thank you. That's [02:50:00] very nice. Uh, can I just tell you about these glasses for a minute? Uh, I'm almost 50 and I had to get progressives this year and I was like, Wolf, if I'm going to get progressives, I'm also going to get neon glasses. And I just wanna say like, age your own way. You know what I mean?
Just age your own fucking way. Yeah. Yeah.
Eva: Yes.
Jessica: But
Eva: a whole nother episode. That could be a whole nother episode. But yes, thank you for dropping that wisdom there.
Jessica: Yes. I just feel like I, I feel like I always just kind of got, I don't know. I like, I like dropping age because I feel like it's important for us to talk about more, more, more.
Eva: Yes, I agree.
Kyley: yes. Also, I wanna give a plug for your podcast because it is a delight and I haven't listened to it for years. So if you, if listeners are, you know, if you've enjoyed this for sure, go listen to the podcast and yes, underscore h your own way. I fucking love that. Thank
Jessica: Thank you very much.