What does it really means to give yourself permission to be a messy b*tch—especially in the places where it feels hardest.
What does it really means to give yourself permission to be a messy b*tch—especially in the places where it feels hardest.
Sparked by Eva being back in Taiwan with her family, this conversation explores what happens when all your tools fly out the window, ten years of therapy evaporate at the front door, and you’re left face-to-face with old patterns, big feelings, and the relentless voice that says you should know better by now.
This episode is for anyone heading into family gatherings, relational landmines, or inner winters where things feel messy or unresolved and are looking to experiment with a different approach: letting yourself be imperfect, uncontained, and human.
What we cover in this episode:
✨ Giving yourself permission to be a “messy b*tch” without bypassing responsibility
🧠 The shame spiral of “I should know better” and why it’s so common in spiritual and personal development spaces
🏠 What happens to your nervous system when you’re back with family—and why your tools might temporarily disappear
🧩 How perfectionism often forms as protection against shame
🌀 The myth of a “perfect self” and the exhaustion of endless self-improvement
⚖️ Accountability vs. punishment: why guilt doesn’t actually help us change "
💔 The subtle ways we weaponize spiritual insights against ourselves
🔓 Releasing self-policing and noticing how inner violence fuels outer conflict
🌱 Why compassion creates more real change than criticism ever could
🕊️ Exploring innocence—not just in others, but in yourself
🔥 The fear and grief that arise when old identities start to dissolve
🤍 Touching unconditional love and why it can feel unfamiliar, fleeting, or even scary
💫 Connect with Eva & Kyley
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Kyley's Instagram: @kyleycaldwell
Kyley's free mini-course
Eva and Kyley
Eva: [00:00:00] everyone, it's Eva.
Kyley: And it's Kylie.
Eva: Welcome back to Hello Universe.
Kyley: We're so excited, everybody. , we've already been talking for an hour about this topic before we hit record, so I know it's gonna be a juicy one. Eva, you have something that's really fresh and alive that we
all fucking need, so bring us in on the topic for today.
Eva: Yes. Just as a friend chat I was sharing with Kylie this new experience that I'm having with like the permission I'm giving myself to be a really messy [00:01:00] bitch. And that has been really alive for me because I'm back in Taiwan where I'm with my family, which is where I am, the messiest and the bitchiest.
And so this is like really loud, and maybe this will be, we're like kind of around the holidays. So maybe this will be helpful for people
Kyley: Yeah, I feel like this is the good timing for a lot of people Probably.
Eva: yes. Like this is a message that I really wanna convey to our listeners as you embark upon your holiday gatherings with people who might be triggering or stressful or who you, whatever, have, have big feelings around. Um, is this permission to be messy? Not because you're like bypassing and you're not taking responsibility, but because like.
I think because just the acknowledgement of like, that's where you're at. And so, and I think this is particularly like revolutionary for [00:02:00] me because I work, we, Kylie and I both do, but like, you know, my field is this field of like personal development, spiritual development. Um, and I live in this world of like, I don't actually think I live in the world of like fixing myself to death.
That's like how I, I started this work a long time ago, right? Anyone who's in personal develop it at some development, you can get caught up into like the fixing yourself. But it was more like this feeling of like, and I didn't know that I was feeling this way. It was very unconscious, but this feeling of like, I have all these spiritual tools and I know I might, I, yeah, I should know better, but like, yeah, it's a, it's a version of I should know better.
That's like particularly I. Um, got a flavor of like, uh, of something else like, oh, righteousness, maybe like righteousness towards the self because it's this, I'm, I'm so [00:03:00] deeply steeped in this world, like deep, I'm deeply steep steeped in this world of spirituality. That's like when I'm with people who are triggering or difficult and like, I, I like, yeah, it is, it is a should.
I should know how to react better. I shouldn't, I shouldn't just get really triggered, you know, I shouldn't like default to my in whatever indoctrinated ways of being. And I have seen that because as it was unconscious and because I partnered with the fact that I'm in this spiritual work, there was a lot of shame that I felt when I would, for example, revert back to being a 16-year-old teenager throwing a tantrum.
As a 40-year-old woman with my parents, like, see, I could even, that story, it's like I'm a 41-year-old woman and I am thinking like I shouldn't be like that with my parents anymore. And especially because another rhetoric that I hear in social media a lot or in the spiritual world is like, if you are [00:04:00] feeling triggered, it's a good thing.
And because it's showing you like what's like living in you, which I think is true, but it's this feeling of like, and you are, I don't know if like you, it means you haven't figured something out yet. And so I would use that and be like, I would be like, so I haven't figured something out yet. And then I would be a sense of like, I haven't figured something out yet. And. It's like, and basically with the story of like, and therefore it's not okay for me to be this reactionary to be the way that I am. And recently I think what I've been experiencing is a lot of compassion for like, it's okay, what if it's okay that when I'm with my parents who are the most driven people that all of my tools fly into another orbit and leave my body?
Like, like what if it just leaves my body? Like what if that's what [00:05:00] if that's okay? All of a sudden there's like this permission.
Kyley: I just keep thinking of this recently meme I saw yesterday that just said, whoosh, there's the sound of 10 years of therapy leaving as I walk through my parents' door.
Eva: Yes. Exactly. Exactly, exactly. And I used to, and I think it's like, the response to that is like the difference between being able to laugh at ourselves and or suffering, right? And so like, that's exactly what happens to me. Sometimes. Literally 10 years of therapy will have left my body when I'm in this like, situation.
And what's been happening for me recently is like, I can laugh at that, but last year what was happening was I was like, God, I, have I not improved? Have I not learned anything? Like, um, I'm such an imposter. Like, you know, who do I think I am? Like I teach on this stuff and I shouldn't be able to like be that way.
And also you, you know, you know the stories. They go on and on and
Kyley: I do. I do, I do [00:06:00] because I will share listeners and, and I, I've been wanting to do like a long-term episode on this, which I think we probably still will in January, but I went through a pretty big bout of like what I think we call depression in the summer and early fall, um, even into later in the fall anyway, and one of the things that was hard about it was that I could watch how much I was just like, what the fuck is wrong with me?
I should know better. I'm like,
like I have all these tools, like, why aren't my tools? I must not be using my tools well enough, right? Like, have I done nothing has, you know, have I not grown at all? Like exactly these same things that you are saying, I, and we're, and we're, and are experiencing with your pa we're experiencing with your parents. I was doing to myself by myself this summer when I was just like, I don't know what's going on, but like I must, yeah, there was just this pressure. Some of which was very unconscious that like I should know better or, or, or there was like a [00:07:00] big project in front of me to fix as opposed to like, part of what ultimately allowed it to really lift was just really embracing like, this is a season and you're in this season until this season shifts
and like just love yourself in it.
Like it was not, there's nothing, what if there's nothing to heal here,
but it's just for you to like love yourself through and then gently one season becomes the next season. 'cause
that's how cyclicality of life goes. And then that's exactly what has happened. Um,
Eva: Yeah, I mean I think you touched into like a key word here is like, well, I mean hear, I hear what you're saying. It was like there was a compassion there and Yeah, and really like this is a version of how we practice self-love for ourselves. And this isn't new, you know, we talk about this stuff all the time.
I think what makes it really tricky is it starts with actually when the shit's [00:08:00] like unconscious. And that's, I think that's tough and it sucks because that's like, that's what being unconscious is, is like we're just in these like holding patterns and we can't get out until we bring the unconscious to the conscious level.
But also I think that's, this is what I mean when I say. Like meeting reality. And this is something that Byron Katie says all the time. She's like, you don't need to try and act past your evolution. Meaning,
Kyley: Hmm.
Eva: and it's really kind when we stop acting past your evolution. Because what I'm seeing is like, oh, I am unconsciously being like so hard on myself or really perfectionistic.
And I think what I'm noticing is like a welcoming of like, okay. And that's just where I'm at. Like, 'cause it's gonna happen. I'm not a perfect human. I'm so, and I, and I, and I so wanna be because I teach all this spiritual stuff, you know? So I wanna be like, oh hey, I got, I got it all figured out, but it's actually like, I'm still gonna be [00:09:00] really, I, I mean I still am unconscious and that's just facts.
'cause that's already happened, you know, it's, it's happening and, and it's like when I don't act past my evolution all of a sudden it just feels so kind of the acceptance of like, I am where I am.
Kyley: Can I ask a question? Why do you think we're so obsessed with being perfect?
Eva: That is, Ooh, that's a good question. I am going to be curious to hear what you have to say actually, but I think, wow. I don't think there's like a clear cut answer, but I, and I think it's, it depends, you know, on the person and the situation, but I know what I have seen for myself. One reason I'm, I, I fall into perfectionism is because I'm really trying to avoid feeling shame,
Kyley: Mm-hmm.
Eva: like, um.
I felt a lot of shame [00:10:00] in my childhood with like my mother being an alcoholic. And we had this really dysfunctional family and I had to do a lot of hiding and pretending and like, not letting people know that things were like fucked up in our house. And I felt there was a lot of shame, a lot of, a lot of shame.
And so my protection mechanism was like, be perfect. So no one ever has to see this dirty, yucky, bad gross, like, um, sad, sad side of me and my family. So it really was like a perfection protection mechanism against shame. And I also think it has something to do with like, I mean, it doesn't, I can logically know that this, this doesn't work, but something about like gaining love, like having love and not losing love and like thinking that if I just.
Can show people the good parts of myself that like, [00:11:00] that's how I will stay safe, you know, and not get kicked out of like the, the clan. Even though, even though intellectually I know that like my imperfect vulnerable thing side is like actually what helps me connect with people. But still, there's just like a survival mode mechanism.
I mean, there's so many reasons. Even with like business, it's like in business and this social media sphere that we're in, it's like, it's the same thing. I, I wanna say, I don't care about what people think, but my survival mechanisms make it so that I do, or there's a, there's a survival instinct part of me.
Yeah.
Kyley: Yeah. I think, can I ask another que, I agree with everything you said, and I'm curious. My, one of the ways my perfectionism shows up a lot is there's like a lot of striving in it. Like, like there's a, there's a, there's a mythic version of my life and myself that lives in my imagination [00:12:00] where I am perfect. Like right where I have like somehow accomplished, you know, the Simone Bolt biles dismount of perfection in life and
like everybody applauds and I like never have a bad hair day again. And I, like, I, I, I, I can see how much I like really, A lot of it is unconscious, but I like really believe that that exists and I'm constantly like unhooking from this kind of pursuit, striving towards that thing. Do you have that? Does that is, do you have that same relationship? Right? Is there,
like, do you also have this like perfect version of yourself where it's like, because there's like two iterations of perfection for me. One is the like, is the like con, the like the way that I might be unkind to myself in the moment. And that obviously causes suffering. But then there's this other thing where it's like, there's just this relentless striving [00:13:00] pursuit energy
because I think there is a perfect me that I have to, that I can become
and therefore should try to become and, and in some and some ways that striving, in some ways that striving part is like more insidious for me and it's like harder for me to unhook from.
But I'm curious if you experienced that too.
Eva: Well, I think you're speaking the moment you said that I, it was an aha moment because I'm like, I think we all think that, I think we all think that there is a place that we get to where then it's, it's interesting. Again, I wonder if this is also unconscious, but it's this feeling of like, hold on, I wanna take a second with this.
This is actually kind of blowing my mind. It's almost unconscious. Where to me I'm like. Oh yeah, of course. Like, you know, once I just figured this out, like of course of, of course there's a version of me figuring out this problem where the situation is solved and then that could be like a small [00:14:00] situation or a big situation.
Like of course there's a version of me where I'm like, really good at doing this and, and, because I think actually that's what we see a lot of, whether or not it's true, but I think it's like in like the stories that we hear, like the movies that we watch and, you know, the social media that we consume, it's, there is like an end point that you can get to, not, not necessarily with your whole life, but like with a very specific.
This task and this task and this goal and whatever, and then that all adds, we don't know it. But I think that all adds up to like, oh, well if that, if that those were all true, then we would actually, it means that we think that we have like could have a perfect life because we don't know that we are actually thinking that's what we're aiming towards.
We wouldn't stay. That's what we're aiming towards. But if you look at like, I'm gonna be this kind of mom and then I'm gonna be this kind of business person and this kind of, I'm [00:15:00] gonna have this kind of launch and I'm gonna have this kind of health, well then if all of those things worked out the way that we want them to, then we would have a perfect life.
And it's making me see actually how flawed that is. Because a perfect life doesn't, the perfection in that way doesn't exist.
Kyley: So something interesting is happening, as you were describing that, as you were describing the like perfect life thing, I started to completely disassociate. Like, I just, like all of a sudden like was like, was not paying attention. Then I paused to answer a question of yours and I like completely lost the thread. And we had to pause recording for a minute for me to like collect like where, like what it is that I even wanna say. And I think all that is like very telling and interesting because here I'm saying like, I, I know where, I know I have all this striving energy and the illusion of perfect, like the illusion of the chasing perfection is like a very profound for me.
And then immediately my brain was like, [00:16:00] short circuited, computer crashed, you know? Uh, which I think just reinforces like, for me, that reinforces. That there's a lot, there is a lot. I ha I do have a lot of unconscious investment in this like myth of a perfect self. And I think it's not a myth of a perfect life.
That's what's interesting. I thought maybe when I was younger I did, but I feel like, you know, I have lived many lives, versions of myself like finding happiness in grief and like wading through various, you know, the apple cart getting upset and like finding balance and pleasure and grief simultaneously. And so it's not the myth of a perfect life, but it is still the myth of a perfect self. And I can
be very relentless in that. And I can be very. I mean, again, I just, this conversation is making me realize how much unconscious attachment I have to that because I think that's where like that [00:17:00] unconscious attachment just like basically yanked me offline for a minute and was like, we could just not pay attention.
And then you get to keep being really attached to us.
Thanks a lot. This is like my brain was like at,
these are not the drones you're looking
for.
Eva: Yep. Well, okay, but, so then my question is, what if there's no perfect self? Like,
Kyley: Yeah. I
just like that.
Eva: what does that
Kyley: Go ahead.
Eva: make you feel?
Kyley: I mean, what's interesting is like if we weren't already in this conversation where I think I'm watching all of these kind of somatic responses, I'd be like, yeah, of course there's not.
Right? But when you ask that question, I felt my heart go whoop. And
it was very subtle, but I felt a little heart clench and a little tummy drop
was like. Like there is, like there is some part who's, because, because I think what lives in that, and I think this is probably true for a lot of us, is like, if there's no perfect self, then I have to be this self forever. And she's a [00:18:00] hot fucking mess.
And she's one misstep away from everyone discovering that she's an unlovable
piece of trash. So we're like, we're,
Eva: Yeah. It's like, it's like this, I have to live with this person.
Kyley: right?
Yes.
Eva: Yes. It, it
Kyley: She's a messy bitch.
Eva: Yes, exactly. And I think there's something like it, like if, if we're invested in the perfection being the solution, there's something really disappointing and scary, and I think really terrifying being like, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait.
You mean like that's not po? That's not. Um, a real thing. So then what's supposed to save me, because like there's safety and like the, there's safety in knowing like, wait, once I get to the perfectionism, then I'll like get the whatever it is that I want from that experience. Like, I don't have to feel my shame anymore.
I don't have to be annoyed with myself anymore. Like, whatever, people will love me more. Whatever. There's like a, there's the promise of a solution rather than [00:19:00] having the solution be what most of us don't want it to be, which is actually, oh fuck, I have to find peace with being with this version of myself.
Which,
Kyley: that, but see, this is where that's even that is insidious because then my perfect self is like, oh, you gave me a new project. Okay, my perfect self is, has peace with her imperfect self. Right?
Like, what if we always kind of hate ourselves a little bit? And that's just the, that's just the thing.
Eva: well see that's, well that's like.
Kyley: I think it's paradox, right? I
Eva: Yes. It's paradox. It's paradox. I I think it is because you're so right. Like I, oh God, it's so insidious. And this is where this perfectionism thing comes in. Especially again, I, I think it's particularly prevalent and insidious in this like personal development, self-help, love, you know, spirit world.
Um, because I can see that too. It's like, then my next perfectionist piece, which I think in fact I've like done and maybe who knows I'm still doing and don't even know that I'm doing, is like, [00:20:00] okay, let me get really good at being, it's just another, like another skill or another thing I can like, master let me get really good at just being with my whole self or something.
Kyley: [00:21:00] Can I jump in?
Eva: yes,
please.
Kyley: think that the learning, the skill is not the bad thing. It's, it's that we weaponize that process, right? So like you can learn something new. And you could, like the other day, I said to Brady like, should we watch, like should we learn how to draw? Should we watch some videos where we can learn how to draw?
'cause she loves art and I don't know how to draw. And she's like, she looked at, she goes, you don't learn how to draw. You just draw.
Eva: Oh my God.
Kyley: She just like, what? Talking about mom,
like, it, it did not compute. So you don't learn how to draw. You just do it.
Eva: Oh my God. That's, sorry. Like the wisdom, like the child, just the insane, yeah, like simplistic. Simplistic wisdom. Like she's dropping truth bombs without even knowing because she's just
Kyley: Right. and so like, like, like learning how to be with your imperfect self when it's like you just do it
right. And that childlike wisdom, which is like, oh, that horse looked like a
[00:22:00] toothpick. Okay, next piece of page. Right? Versus the thing that I think our perfectionist self does, which is like, oh, did you not perfectly sit with your imperfect self wrong?
And.
Eva: Exactly. Okay, so this brings me like such a good segue into like, into this thing I, Kylie and I has have also talked about offline, which I think is relevant to this episode is Al just noticing essentially any time my habit of taking a spiritual I spiritual realization and then using it against myself and that that's another version of what I was, how I started off this conversation of saying like, I'm not letting myself be a messy bitch and really like what I really want to like lean into for myself and I think I might be forced into leaning into it because I am a messy bitch sometimes with my family and I'm here for another two months.
You know, like, it's like, it's [00:23:00] that. It is this being like, I am, like, I just noticing when I'm doing that weaponizing some realization that I have against myself and then instead of beating myself up because I like didn't get it, it's like, yeah, you know what? I didn't get it and I did it wrong and, and I did it really, really wrong.
And so what?
Kyley: Yeah.
This is making me, this is making me think of what time I was in therapy and I said something of like, oh, like not to be self pitying. And he goes, what if you were, what if you were self pitying? Like,
what if, what if, what if you were full of? And I was like, excuse me, what?
Like that's not an acceptable emotion.
That one, all the other ones are fine, but pity
Eva: Okay. So good. Okay. So good because I think we all have our own versions of those things that we are allowed and not allowed to be, and something, something that is like my version of that is like. That it would, it, it's, it's sacrilegious to me. But this idea of [00:24:00] like betraying myself, betraying myself to me is sacrilegious.
'cause I am, I have been taught to be like a strong woman who like follows my heart and, you know, listens to my body and I have to listen to my truth and to live my truth as with much fervor and passion as I passion as I possibly can. And that sounds great. The idea of that is fucking beautiful people built million dollar businesses on that.
You know what I mean? But then what happens is I take that and then this is the weaponizing that we're talking about. I take that, I'm like, okay, so that means if I ever betray myself, like I have a strong aversion to that, I'm like, oh fuck, I can't, I can't betray myself. Where this is where like the therapist version comes in and goes.
But what if, so what, what if you did betray yourself? You know, and there's a part of me that goes, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa. No, no, no. I can't do that. Because that's stands against, that goes against everything I stand for, but it's not helpful if I'm attacking myself with it. You know what I'm saying?
Kyley: right. Because the attract, like the, [00:25:00] yeah, like, because the attacking is, we one to argue like that's the real betrayal,
right? Is not the 'cause the
action, even if you are quote unquote betraying yourself, some part of you needed or wanted that. So that part of you was choosing herself, right? Like, um,
Eva: Yeah. Or like, maybe I just made a mistake. Maybe I did betray myself. And it became, and it came from this place of like some, some child, some like toxic, um, behavior that I just haven't grown out of yet because there's still some trauma living in me. And that was just like the best I could do in that moment.
Kyley: Yes, yes. And I guess what I'm thinking too is like. The like, so toxic behavior, like born out of trauma, that there's some part who needed that choice,
right? So like there's some part of you who thought
betrayal was the [00:26:00] safest thing, and like that part is still trying to love you. She just has like a very limited toolbox.
And so even the, I like,
Eva: Yes.
Kyley: like what I'm thinking is like the very idea of betraying yourself is maybe like not a real thing.
Eva: Mm. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. But when I take it as in like. And I label it, you know, as an idea of good or bad or something one should or should not do. And I like go into this duality of like, it's a rule or whatever. Just because rules, I like rules because it make life easier for me to follow the rules and then I can just like do it.
Right. But in reality, like what you're saying, it's a much more nuanced than that. It's like I, some part of me needed to, to do this thing where I betrayed myself and, and it's like this, it's so nuanced, is there's all this fucking nuance and it's all this rainbow of colors. [00:27:00] And that's like more in line with reality.
And I think when I like let that into my heart, oh, I feel like a lot more relief to be an imperfect human being.
Kyley: So can I ask how being in Taiwan feels this time, like with this like newer relationship to, all right, I have permission to be a fucking mess. How does it feel? D.
Eva: Oh man. Oh my gosh. So I, I, I have to quote, um, Roxanne Burrows. So I went to a workshop this fall with Roxanne Burrows. She's also a facilitator of the work. She's Aspir and Katie's daughter. And she, um, runs this course called Always Enough. And if you struggle with like self-love, um, like negative self-talk, self attack, inner critic stuff, like I cannot recommend [00:28:00] this workshop enough.
It was honestly like more catalyzing and more effective and more profound than any of the plant medicine experiences I've done this year. It was like, it was something else, dude. And I had huge releases. I'm talking like, like crying, like a fucking baby in like basically fetal position in front of a group of people because just like the releases that were coming outta my body were like huge.
Like things were coming out that I didn't even know were there, you know, which is like, I guess what a release is oftentimes. But like, I'm shaking now just talking about it, but it was so good. So you can, and I would say you can go look up rocks and burs, but she doesn't even have that big of a social media presence.
But if you have questions, you can ask me. But anyway, so, and I'm saying all of this is 'cause I feel like I want to give credit to where I've learned some of this stuff is like, she started off the workshop saying something like, like, we're not, if you see someone who you [00:29:00] are, um, like, I don't know who you, who you love, but who you argue with, and you have this tendency to be like, okay, I can see, I can understand where they're coming from.
Like this person I can understand. Yeah, I can understand where's come this person is coming from. It's like we often can make the other person innocent when we're on the spiritual path. 'cause we're like, I can understand where they're coming from, whatever. And then she said this thing, she was like, you're not free until you're both innocent.
Meaning like in any sort of conflict or, or, or situation. Like I can see the innocence, innocence in other people, even if it's like they were ignorant and they did something harmful. But it was like, there's an in, I do believe in like the innocence of people, you know, like, but I never allow myself to be innocent.
And I was like, oh my God. We're not free until we're both innocent. And so how that's like shown up for me in Taiwan is I, I am in this tricky situation [00:30:00] where my mother is mentally ill and so she will often do things that will just like. Drive me up a wall where it might be very challenging for me and I'll go, well, but she can't help it, right?
Because she is meant, you know, she's got this illness and I'll go, but I can, I can help it. And then really, and that gave me a lot of like pressure and grief and this perfectionism thing that we've been talking about. And so really what's changed this time is like, well, she can't help it. And also, and she was innocent and I don't think the phrasing that I'm using is like, I couldn't help it either, but it was a sense of like, but I was doing the best that I could in this moment.
Like, I lost my shit, but I didn't, I lost my shit because of like all of my trauma or whatever, like, you know, because of all this history that we have together. But I could see the innocence of like, where I was coming from and why that happened. Because usually what I, I default to is like criticism of myself because I think so [00:31:00] that I can improve, I'll go like, oh, that was like, really, I was being really impatient or blah, blah, blah.
And then I, I think that's gonna like help me change, but it doesn't
really, it's just another like deeper form of compassion. But it's like I've just given myself so much grace for how impatient I am with her. How when I like fly off the handle and if I like say something rude or if I am basically things that I am not proud of.
Like if you do anything that you're not proud of, normally the response is like immediate, like self-criticism of some sort. Right. But for me it's like I'm not proud that I did that. And also, and, and also like. I can give myself grace. And that combination I think is like so powerful. 'cause it's the acknowledgement of like that's, you know, I can do better and I, and I wanna do better, but [00:32:00] also I'm just an imperfect fucking person.
And if I can let myself be imperfect, all of a sudden, you know how it is. Once we are like, great, give ourselves grace and we're compassionate with ourselves, then I have like the energy and the immobility and like the heart and the wisdom to actually change. That's like the interesting thing about acceptance is right, is like once I accept why I am, then I can actually change.
So I'm just showing up with my family, I think with a lot less shame.
Kyley: Yeah. And, and the, the judgment and the guilt. Had this really beautiful conversation with a client recently, and we had this, we had, we got to see this really beautiful image of the inner self where like anger, like the, our ungovernable self or like unacceptable self essentially was like in a prison. And the jailer was guilt. [00:33:00] Like, guilt was the jailer who was like, like if I just, if I just continue to feel bad about myself, then I can keep this ungovernable unacceptable, unlovable, self locked up.
They can, like, I can minimize their harm. Right. And the way
that like, guilt will, like, use guilt. Yeah. It's like, try again. We're trying to keep ourselves safe, right?
We're always trying to keep ourselves safe. And, um, and I, I just thought of that image as you were describing. Like, the shift in your, in your family right, is like, okay, it does suck. When you lose your shit on somebody that you love, it doesn't feel good. Right? It
doesn't, it doesn't feel good to lose your shit. And also there's a difference between accountability and guilt,
you know? And, um, or, and like there's a difference between,
Eva: Like accountability and like punishment, I
Kyley: yeah, yeah,
Eva: Yeah. And I love that phrase of like that phrase of like, wow, what did [00:34:00] you say? Like, we're trying to keep, we keep ourselves like in this prison, is that what you said?
Kyley: yeah.
Eva: Like, but because we're it, but actually like the real prison is, I mean, we are keeping ourselves in a prison actually.
We're essentially using what I consider like that guilt is kind of like violence. it's.
Kyley: Mm-hmm. Yo,
Eva: harm. It's like this subtle and sometimes not so subtle form of violence, which is us essentially. Like, that's where I've really seen like where I can take responsibility. We're like, oh, I know why the world is fucked up, is because we're violent people and how do I know that is because I'm so violent with myself and that is getting projected out into the world.
And so like that's, I honestly believe truly, like that's how war, like, that's why we have war in societies because I think it starts with something as, as like unconscious but real as like the violence that we inflict upon ourselves when we are trying to guilt or shame ourselves [00:35:00] out of like not harming like other people.
Like it comes from this really innocent good place. Like it's so innocent, we don't wanna harm other people. And we were also looking for safety. But if, if our means to be safe is that we're gonna be violent against ourselves by keeping ourselves in this prison with like the guilt. An internal cattle prod.
Essentially we're fucked. We're, we're policing ourselves and we can't do it with violence. It's like, violence is never going to be the answer. I.
Kyley: Yeah, yeah. And to your point, like we can't. It's like, it's like we swallow the poison because we're so afraid of poisoning other people, right? Like, we're so convinced that we're the bad guy, that we, we take the poison 'cause we don't want anyone. And then that's, it's then every,
there's still fucking poison in the system, right?
It doesn't work to, to that line. You're not free until you're both innocent. [00:36:00] Um, I think is really, I think is really beautiful. And the way you get to that, or the only way that I ever managed to get to a version of that, right, is like, we just gotta go through all the cycles of like, being angry and being sad and being, you know, like, um, like the, like love and acceptance that I have found for, say, for other people. Like, people who have disappointed in me, disappointed me or hurt me. When I don't let myself feel how fucking pissed I am at it, there's all this dis, there's all this distance between us, but when I let myself actually feel how fucking pissed I am about it, and then just like get through, like move all the way through it, then I come to a place of real, like really deep love.
Even if that love is like, and I don't ever wanna talk to you again,
but I still have like real love,
right? Or sometimes that love is like, okay, great, and now I'm gonna call [00:37:00] you and we're gonna hang out, whatever. But
it's like, it's like we can't, it's like we make, we just make, we just make it wrong. How we fucking show up, but how we show up, it's like always trying to like, it is always trying to bring us deeper into love.
And when we're not making it wrong, we actually get to experience that. And when
we're making it wrong, it's like we just like. You know, it's just like I'm seeing a bunch of like levies and dams in a, in a, in a canal or a
river. It's like the, the, the, the water's trying to take us to love Our feelings are trying to take us to love, but then we're like, oh, that's the wrong one.
And we looked for a dam and they were just fucking stagnating. And whatever that quote unquote wrong emotion was.
Eva: [00:38:00] [00:39:00] Yes. Yes. And I feel, and I, and I've seen that like in myself. Like I, I, I had this experience where I, like, two years ago, I think I. Again, my mother, she was like, I don't know, being drunk and, and diff and, and challenging and I, [00:40:00] we got into like this hu It was, I had this like huge blow up and it really felt like literally like all of my, all of my senses like left my body.
Like when you are so triggered, you know, it's like literally went, jumped to another dimension. I don't know where all that shit went. And I was just left with like my childhood fear. I like lashed out at her and it was like so messy and I felt so bad about it that I, I mean, again, I was 39 at the time so I was almost a 40-year-old woman.
But I felt so guilty about it 'cause I was so, I was so sad about the harm that I felt like I was causing somebody else. And I was like so ugly that I like went into my room and hid under the covers and cried because I was really feeling all this like shame and I couldn't like let myself like. I think I, and I didn't really know what to do with that, like meaning, so then afterwards I went and I apologized and like, you know, we, and I knew what to do with it in terms of like, I knew how to [00:41:00] be with her, you know, I could just apologize.
And I was, and there was the kindness and love and warmth there, but I didn't really know how to be with myself in that moment. And I still haven't known. And it was really this year, this like this. So there's this sort of aha feeling of like, oh, I know what I was supposed to do. Like, instead of feeling the shame that I was feeling, 'cause I felt so bad about being so messy, it was like the love of letting myself and acceptance of being like, oh, I can be, that was really messy.
And love the love and understanding that I can have for that type of messiness.
Kyley: I am thinking about when you're sharing this, I'm thinking about this story. Um, I met a She Gum podcast before, but one time, birdie. It was might've been this past year even, or de so it was like a year ago. It was Desi's birthday and Birdie had woke up with the flu and so it was Desi's birthday party day.
And so she couldn't, I, [00:42:00] I,
was like so sad, but I was like, baby girl, like you can't go to your brother's birthday party 'cause like, you clearly, it's not just that you're sick, like you got the flu, you
know? And obviously she was so upset to
not go to this birthday party and she was so sad and she got so mad at me. 'cause of course, right? Like I'm telling her she can't go to this birthday party that of course she wants to go to. You're got so mad at me. And she was like, and, and she said, if you don't, if you don't, lemme go to this party. I won't love you anymore. Or, and I just got down on my
Eva: Oh.
Kyley: and knees. I looked her in the eye and I said, baby girl, there is nothing you could ever say that will make me not love you. You can be as mad as you need to be. This stinks. There is nothing you could say that will make me not love you. And she just like Coop, you know, we just like cried and hugged each other. But I think about how like we all need that, right? Like in that moment when you [00:43:00] were under the covers, like you needed someone to climb in next to you and say, baby girl, there's nothing you could do that would make me not love
you. And like I do think that life and like God, the universe, whatever you wanna call it, does love us that way, but we just can't always hear it or feel it. And that's what I'm hearing you speak to is like sometimes we just fuck up and all we need in that moment is just to like let in that we are never not loved. Even when we feel like we fucked everything up.
Eva: Yeah. Or even when you say like, really mean things intentionally to hurt people. Like that's what I love so much about your story with Birdie is like, she's essentially saying something really mean to you, right? And saying something really hurtful and you are coming back with this like this beautiful mama unconditional energy being like, you could tell me that you hate me and I [00:44:00] there's, and that's not gonna change how much I love you.
Like forever and ever and ever and ever and ever. And I actually think, I mean that's just really interesting is like that's, I think the, the kind of relationship like that I think I'm like meant to learn how to have with myself is like, you can just throw the biggest tan and be the messiest bitch and do all of these like maybe terrible, nasty things and like, I will still love you.
Like that's the kind of love I would love to have for myself. But. But I will say, and I don't know if I'll ever, you know, I don't know if that's, I think I, I have experienced like this conversation is actually helping me with that, you know? 'cause it's making me see like, oh, actually that's what I want.
And I think, but, and, and more than that, I actually think I'm so glad you brought in God and the universe and nature actually is because I actually do think 100% like that is actually [00:45:00] what love is always trying to show us. And even like, okay, like I don't know much about, you know, I'm not really, um, I'm not well versed at all in religion, but like, essentially that's kind of what I feel like God and Jesus are my understanding of like, Jesus and God are like, it's like, you know, and what is that call like, you know, forgive them for like, they don't know what they do.
You know, forgive them
Kyley: Yeah. Forgive them, father. They know not what they do.
Eva: Yeah. Some version of like one
Kyley: Which is what Jesus said, like he's literally on the cross and he says,
forgive them, father. They know not what they do.
Eva: there's like, there's like that, but also, so there's that, and then also this version of like, like the innocence of people like that they're causing all this harm. And also there's like this forgiveness and understanding, but also God is like, I love you even if you are just like the messiest fucking person in the whole fucking world.
And I've experienced that love like on in my spiritual experiences, and it has crushed me. It has been like, [00:46:00] like this is what I think my partner Tom means when he says like, let it kill you. Because I've felt it and it has killed me because I've just like, I'm that lovable. Like I am. I am in reality, I'm actually that lovable and I've just been treating myself like a piece of shit for this long, when in reality I am that lovable and that loved, it's like it's, there's something healing about letting that in.
But the healing comes from a sense of like. It comes from a sense of like, I think it, it broke open my ego because my ego's favorite story is that I'm a piece of shit. Like, it broke open my sense of like self, because I'm just, my underlying belief is like, there's something to fix, there's something to heal, there's something, whatever.
And it, it is a little bit [00:47:00] jarring when you're like, wait, that's not true. Like, that's, that, that's not true. And, and, and I can, and I'm just like, perfect as I am. Which is an interesting thing because I think this also goes back to kind of what you were saying earlier about like, it's a, it's another flavor of wait.
So if I don't go get to perfection, I'm just with this behind that. I'm just, I just live with this version of me. 'cause the perfection isn't real and or isn't really gonna like. Solve everything, then I just have to be with this. It's kind of the same thing. Does that make sense?
Kyley: Yes, and I just got a little like woozy as you were talking, which is always happens when something internally is shifting. And specifically when you were talking about like the egos. The ego story. The ego like, yeah, the ego loves this story that like, I'm a piece of shit. And then I was like watching how my ego doesn't wanna let go of that story [00:48:00] because then I don't know who I am.
Eva: Exactly. It's like
Kyley: that. Like what? Wait. Yeah.
Like if I, then I'm just in the fucking wild, uncharted territory of like, wait, if I'm not, if I'm not this, this nailed down known thing, or I'm a project and like endless fixing is required and you know, punishment and management, I'm not that, what the fuck am I?
And I can, I can see there's like grief and fear and like, well, we don't wanna go into that unknown.
Eva: Mm-hmm.
Kyley: Mm.
Eva: 100%. I've had that experience where many times where I'm like, wait, because that's just like what I've known for so long and that's like comfortable. But also the unknown is really scary because if I'm not this, this thing that I need to fix or improve or this person that gets better and and grows, then who the fuck am I?
And [00:49:00] that I think is actually a beautiful question. It's like a beautiful place to land if. It is like there can be two flavors of that. That can be like the most terrifying thing or it can be like such. It's, I think it's both. It's the version of like death and me birth, right, that like you and I talk about a lot, it is like it is a death and it's scary and you're hanging on for dear life, and you're like, no, no, no, no, no.
That version of Kylie has to die. But then it's also like if, but once you, you know, move through the birth, then there's also, or the death, and there's also the birth of like, you don't know who you are. And that's a very good thing. That's like, that is good news because you are coming closer to the truth of reality.
And then you kinda have this like open mind where you go and explore who this version of you is. If you're not, you know, trying to grow and heal and be perfect.
Kyley: yeah. 'cause the challenge in the assignment is not [00:50:00] to like move from like piece of shit identity to best thing since sliced bread identity, right. The challenge that, because that's, it's actually to like slip into the unknown. Like I don't, I don't know. What if I didn't know? And it's making me think about, I know I've shared this in the podcast before, but one of the things that, one of the things I think about as a mother is, um, that I invite myself to remember often that I don't know my children.
And what I mean by that is like, my job is to like, let them show me who they are
rather than like, assume that I understand and know and then continue to define them by like, we all know the pain of being defined by the box that we lived in 15 years
ago in our family. Right? And, um, and that it feels like that's a very generous thing that I can offer them that like, I don't know who you are, but you get to show me and I will be curious.
And, um, [00:51:00] and so feeling like if that's true and generous for my children, what does it mean for me to give myself that same generosity of like, I don't know who I am, but who might I, who might I become? If I step outside of this jail cell of like punishment and guilt and self-loathing, who might I become if I just was in the, like the, this curious, unknowable middle space of, you know, possibility.
Eva: I know that's where I'm like, I think this is where shit gets exciting. You know what I mean? I'm like, I'm like, because I feel like I've, I've touched into it and I've seen other people touch into it because like this comes up a lot in like, I don't know, the retreats that we do like in Brazil and stuff where it's like people literally have like.
SI don't wanna say psychic breaks because that's not actually what's happening and, and that's not, that would not be a good thing. I don't want people to have psychic breaks. But it is this feeling of like,
this identity is, is sort of being dissolved and then you're in this [00:52:00] space of like openness. But I think it's like we get to discover, and this is what I think, you know, what the spiritual teachers have been saying for like a long time anyway is like, it's never, you never are becoming something or you, it's like, you know, you're never like gaining more, it's like the shedding of things.
Like you shed this identity of like, and then what's left is I think what's true and what's real. And it's like always been there. And I think it's like we get to get in touch with this version of ourselves, which I suspect is really just more. Like who we were when we were kids, like this childlike sense of, of like coming back into our like childlike Yes.
Like core soul that's like been there.
Kyley: I, no offense, I
always hate when people say that. It's like returning to our child [00:53:00] like self. 'cause my child's self, she was really sad and scared. Like I once did a hypnosis of the, and the person was like, okay. It was like, we reconnect to your inner child. And it was like, it was about like, play.
And that person was like, Hey, how does your inner child wanna play? And I was like, she doesn't like,
Eva: Mm-hmm.
Kyley: and I was just like, uh, she's very confused by this suggestion. She'll read a book, like get Right. And that's what we, you know, but I, I think about, and that's not to say that I was like chronically unhappy as a
child, Right, My childhood was like all of the things, high highs, low
lows, but
I think that la I think that metaphor does work for a lot of people. And, and I also know that people, that I'm not the only person who, like I've
Eva: Mm-hmm. Yeah, for, for sure I could see that. I could be like, because I could see also where my childlike self was not a place I didn't wanna go back to
Kyley: You right. Yeah. Like I, right. And, and like I like myself more now potentially. And, um. I [00:54:00] think the bigger piece is that I think what we are creating for ourselves when we are like walking this path of creating this experience of being unconditionally loved and actually allowing ourselves to receive unconditional love. I think part of the mind fuck of it is that it has not existed for us before. Like I know my mother loves me unconditionally. I know that, and I have known that my whole life, and she's a flawed human being who had a C child, she was 19 and did the best stamp job she could. And so I received, I experienced her love as conditional in all sorts of ways, and she didn't mean, but that, but but either because, just because of human nature,
right. I watch the same thing with my kids, right? Where like there's been like things that I've been like, this is a great line that I'm giving birdie to help her. And then she'll be like that, I hate that.
And like, that's actually been making me feel sad for six months. And I'm like, oh shit. You know?
So, um, and so I think what I'm trying to say is like, [00:55:00] I really do believe that the truth of reality is unconditional love, but I actually think that most of us don't know what that is, even as it's the north star we're walking
towards.
And so we're creating something. We are creating something that literally hasn't existed before, even though it's the only thing that actually exists,
right? And that's why it's so hard and so scary and so confusing because it's like, wait, what do you mean? I have to just be in this wild unknown? Because the wild unknown is where unconditional love exists, and we just have only. We have often only experienced love as conditional because it's just like fractured through our human
Eva: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Yeah, that's so, okay, so that's interesting because. I do think that there, hold on. I wanna see if I, I could just go on another tangent and I just dunno if it's gonna make for a good [00:56:00] conversation. Like,
My, my question that I think I'm really curious about is, I think it's, maybe it's not a, it's more of a feeling of like, I've, I've, I've experienced those moments of unconditional love most when I didn't, you know, they didn't exist for me and then at some point they did.
Kyley: Mm-hmm. I'm curious about that, that path, because it didn't exist for me. And I think the times when, like it has, I feel like if anything I know it more and more. I know it more and more, but it's fleeting. It goes right. And I think I'm really curious about, and this may not fit into this episode today, but it's like, I'm curious to know like when have we touched into those moments of unconditional love and like how have we, how have we learned it or experienced it or created it for ourselves or whatever?
Eva: Because I think you're right. I think you're speaking to this thing about how it is completely foreign at some point. And then at some point it's not anymore. did we do that?
Kyley: mm.
Eva: And I'll say for me, a lot of it has been like, there's a lot of [00:57:00] different ways. But, but um, and I wanna be careful about saying this 'cause I don't necessarily, I'm not like, um, promoting like a shortcut or anything, but a quick answer that I have is plant medicine.
That's one quick answer. But there have been for sure other more profound and I think substantial and, um, tangible experiences of that for me outside of plant medicine.
Kyley: Okay. I would love, I think this is our next episode, because I would love, love, love to have this conversation. Um, and what's coming to my mind is really interesting when, um, I've been doing more work lately with like, um, prayer beads, a couple different variety, different, different types of prayers. And I will have this experience when I'm like saying a rosary or, um. A different mantra, and I will like, feel so like connected to unconditional love. It will [00:58:00] just, like, my whole body will just feel like it's like vibrating with just like this amazing feeling of love. And I will think in this moment, like, I could just say this prayer forever, all day. Like, why would I ever not sit for 20 minutes and say these prayers, this is the best feeling in the fucking world.
Like, everything is possible from this place. Like it's so clear to me how, how everything is working out and like, well, like I is just so clear. This is the best feeling. And then the next day I'm like, oh, fuck it. I don't wanna say it. I don't, why would I say for no. Give, give. Gimme some TikTok. Doom. Scroll.
Thank you very much.
Eva: Oh my God. I'm slapping because I'm like, it's so true. That is so true. Like we have this thing that feels,
Kyley: peak.
Eva: yeah.
Kyley: And like two hours later I'm like, oh, fuck that. No thanks.
Eva: Oh my God, that is so funny. But why do you think that is?
Kyley: That's kind of why I almost don't wanna get into it
Eva: Okay. Okay, so that's okay.
Kyley: of, I think the question is like, what does it, what does it, what is [00:59:00] it when we are experiencing these, like touching into unconditional love, what does it feel like? What does it look like? And then also like, how do, like why do we pop in and out?
Why are we, I, because I think, I think,
there's some fear, right? I think actually, like, I think on some level I'm afraid of feeling good. I think
I'm very comfortable feeling like middling.
And I know one of my like, like lessons in life right now is like, what if you just let it be good? And I'm like, I don't know about
that.
That feels real su. Um,
Eva: yeah, yeah, so that's my short answer, but I would love to
Okay. So to be continued, because I think that's, yeah, I would love to unpack that and to be continued on another episode, 'cause Yeah, let's do it.
Kyley: Yeah.
Eva: Woo. But for today, how you feeling about this combo?
Kyley: This is great. I mean, I also, it's interesting too, like we were talking about how I, I, I hit this point of like weird disassociation in the middle of our episode and I feel like so energized and clear right now. Like there's like a whole [01:00:00] arc of like energy work that happened.
While I hope people know listening, especially when it's like you and I just you and me and we like really get going.
Like, we're just pumping you all up with energy magic. I
hope you're, you know, don't operate heavy machinery while listening to all universe.
Eva: For real. Come and receive it though. Come and receive it 'cause it's some good juju. Um, okay, so, well I think we should pop into joy. Wait, before we hop into Joy, I do, I do wanna just sort of round this out from like my Capricorn logistical mind wants to sort of like summarize. I think we went a lot of different places, but, but I do want to emphasize that if there's something in here that's like helpful about like being messy this holiday season, and
Kyley: Mm.
Eva: if that's helpful for you, instead of being in this like perfectionist standard of like, you need to show up a certain way with the people in your [01:01:00] life.
Just noticing how. Just noticing it. I think it's pretty, you can notice like that's the expectation is to set, to, to, to show up a certain way in certain situations. If that's like not helpful and it's keeping you stuck and in that jail and in that prison, then maybe like, just try on giving yourself permission to be like really fucking messy and then just see where that takes you, see if that's maybe more efficient because you're not shrouded in shame.
It's just 'cause I wanna, I can think I'm emphasizing it because again, who knows how my journey will go, but it's allowed me to be so much more loving with myself and therefore I have more patience in these challenging, stressful situations and I'm so grateful. Yeah, I'm really grateful.
Kyley: Can I also make a request to our listeners? Um, even I have a nascent project in the works, and I am curious to [01:02:00] know from listeners if this episode resonated with you. Like, how does this shit show up for you? Because I think that might inform some secret thing that we'll share with you more
later.
But I
Eva: wait. Tell me more. about the question that you're asking. Like, Amy, how does the self
Kyley: like, yeah, like the, the, every, the themes that we're talking about here about like the self punishment and the judgment and the like, you know, journey into experiencing love, like. I'm, I'm curious, curious, just to hear from people, like how do you experience this in your reality, in your orbit?
Um, 'cause I think that will be helpful to hear and I also just, I just want to invite you to let us know how you
Eva: I love that.
Kyley: these issues.
Eva: I love that. Yes. Send us, send us a dm.
Kyley: Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Um,
joy,
Eva: Yeah. Um, what's something that's bringing you joy? Do you have something in your heart already?[01:03:00]
Kyley: have a couple of joys. I will say, I think I wanna do a whole podcast episode on this. Eventually I will see. But, um, I have decided that I cook and not even just, I decided that I cook, but I have decided that like I am, I am a person who cooks, right? Like I have like embraced an identity shift. Around cooking.
And it is bringing me so much joy and like I, I, I, have often like, liked cooking, but I've never felt particularly competent in it. Um, I've never felt like terrible at it, but I've never felt, I've never done it enough to feel that competent in it. And, um, and I am not great at the time management piece.
And so when our kids were younger, um, when Nick and I were in before we had kids, like he just really liked cooking. And so it was easier to default to, like, he did most of the
cooking. I would cook every once in a while. And also we lived in the city and ate at all the fucking time. Right. And then once we had kids, I, [01:04:00] I really like, I did not, I do not excel at the time management piece.
And like, you just can't have a dinner that takes an hour longer than you expected to
eat when you have like, small children have to go to bed and
everyone gets hangry. And so again, it just became Nick's domain because it was just easier for everybody. And it, and
Eva: Also, he's like a food, he's like a foodie. He's like a
Kyley: He's a foodie. Right, right. Like, exactly.
And, um, and it, and so it, but it also then unintentionally like, I could fill this door closing that was just like, oh, well, like I'm incompetent again. There's just like this incompetence thing that was there, just like a couple of, and I was busy and I was doing other things, but then recently I started, like this year, this, this fall in particular, I just started like cook, you know, I was like, Hey, let's put me on the food, on the meal calendar one, like once a week more regularity.
I've been
cooking a little bit more and it has just made me so happy. And so I've just been leaning more and more and more into it. And like everything I've asked for for Christmas is like all about like [01:05:00] cookbooks and like stuff in the kitchen. And I mean, like yesterday I was, two days ago I was talking to a client. So excitedly while I was cooking dinner that I burned a pot of black beans so badly. The whole pot had to get thrown away.
Eva: Mm-hmm. Been there.
Kyley: So like, it's not flawless. But all that being said, like I actually am a good cook. Like the, I mean like the, the foods are like, I, I know how to cook. Like, right? It's
a funny thing where like, I am distracted.
Nick was like, I didn. It was like, you need help in here. You feel like you're kind of like all over the place. And I was like, I exist. That's how I exist. I am always all
over the place and no, I don't need help. And then I promptly caught the black beans on fire. But like, but also what's great is like all, like even a year ago, I would have had all sorts of shame about that would be like, you just like, what the fuck?
Like, you're so bad. Who, who's the easiest thing in the world to cook? You
cook gin a thousand times, like now you have to throw in a pan. Like, I would've felt guilty. I would've felt embarrassed. And so I was like, Nick yesterday was like, we cannot save this pan. And I was like, oh, I know.
[01:06:00] Absolutely we cannot.
We just throw And I just like laughed about it, right? Like,
Eva: Oh, I, I love that. It's, it's funny 'cause I feel like that goes, that's on brand with this theme of like, letting yourself be a messy bitch. Like, you know, like not having to, like, basically you're not doing the shooting and the shaming and like the whatever. It's just like meeting yourself where you are and it's funny and then you can laugh at yourself.
Yeah.
Kyley: Exactly. And it's this like, and I would've projected onto Nick all sorts of, like, I would've made him the person to be mad at for my own self-loathing. So like, I would've been like, he would've been like, we can't save this pen. And I would've been like, no, why? You don't have to tell me
that.
Right. And it's like, he's delivering a facts.
He doesn't give a shit. You know, we've had this pen for 20 years,
like, it's fine. You know? Um, and, and instead I was just like, I know. And then we laughed and like,
Eva: Oh, isn't that so great though? It's like when we're not in the Shang spr, we're not defensive, essentially.
Oh, that's, that's awesome.
Kyley: And I, so I'm also just enjoying this. It is [01:07:00] very on brand for our topic for today. I'm just enjoying the freedom of like. I make good food and I am like learning the process of like, time. It's, it's the, it's the time management piece that I am learning, but I am like actually a pretty good cook on the
things that I know. And I'm, and I'm like having fun and,
Eva: and I have a sense you're good with flavors,
Kyley: that, Yeah, I think, yeah. yeah. I am, I am good. But that's exactly what I was, that's what I was thinking, but didn't say out loud. Yeah.
Like the soup I made last night was this, like wip bean soup with like Italian, like, you know, oregano, basil kind of flavoring. And it was like so fucking good and like
everybody loved it.
And getting new kids, getting your kids to love something brand new too.
It's like, so anyway, that's my, uh, that's my joy and I'm really into it.
Eva: I love this joy. I love, love, love, love, love this joy. As someone who I, 'cause I have honestly, I feel like I have a, have had a similar trajectory of like, I love food. I consider myself a foodie. I know [01:08:00] that I'm good with flavors and so I know what tastes good. You know what I mean? I love how you said the thing about how you notice the door closing, like isn't like, because that happened when I was dating Adam, who was a chef and I, he just,
Kyley: Mm,
Eva: he just made better food than me and so then I never cooked.
And it's just interesting how you sort of like, it's interesting to watch. You'll just like sort of back off and then slowly you can like develop a story of like, well actually I'm just like really not that like go in the kitchen, that can get, just go on and on and then 20 years from now, from now you're just ha have this identity that like you're not a
Kyley: you don't cook.
Eva: Yeah. You that door closes and so anyway, and anyway, I've also come back into cooking after. You know, not dating someone who was a professional chef and being like, wait, I actually can cook. And I love cooking and I'm gonna send you, now that I know that you're like on the cooking train, I'm gonna send you all of my like really simple but delicious recipes.
And then
Kyley: Oh my God. yes.
Please, listeners too, send me all your favorite recipes or your favorite cookbooks. 'cause I really enjoy the act of like looking through a cookbook. I love reading.
[01:09:00] I love cooking off of paper and not my phone.
So like, send me all your favorite recipes, if any, your favorite cookbooks.
Send them to me. Yes. please. Yes, please.
Eva: Me too. Me too. Send me your easiest like recipes, like your good, easy recipes. Those are like gold, you know? Let's start there. Okay. Anyway, so thank you for that share, and I'm excited to see where you go on your culinary journey.
Kyley: Yes.
I do feel like I might wanna do like a whole episode of like Kylie's cooking adventures. So,
Eva: we, can we do a Kylie and Eva cooking adventures? Because I feel like I've learned a, because I started cooking for Tom's family this year, and that was like a huge. One of my joys actually, just like six months ago, was also about cooking because I've cooked the best food of my life. But it was also a journey.
Like it was, uh, there was a process to it of a lot of also, anyway, 'cause I think food is art and so it's essentially we're both talking about diving into a new art form, you know? That's how I see it. Yeah.
Kyley: Can I share one more thing? Now,
this story's getting very long, but one other thing that I'm loving about this joy is, um, it's a way of, [01:10:00] it's a way of taking care of my family while also making them leave me the fuck alone,
Eva: Oh my, yes. You've discovered it, you've tapped into it. You've got to tap into, I think what Nick has already known for maybe a long ass time
Kyley: right?
Eva: it's like, you're doing this productive thing that's like, but, but 100%. And that's also what I experienced too.
Kyley: Yeah. Yeah. And just like everybody get the fuck out. I'm doing something very important for all of
us, and I could just listen to my music and drink a glass of wine and make some delicious soup and.
Eva: that's, that's like the, the thing, like the secret that cooks have known this whole time, you know?
Kyley: yes, yes. I understand why you've kept it on lock too. I have a friend who was like, I, she's a really, really good cook. And she's like, I love it. I just like immediately tell my kids to go outside and leave me alone, and it's like my favorite hour of the day,
you know?
Eva: Yep. Totally. Oh, I, okay, so that's also on the docket, Kylie and Eva's cooking Adventures. I'm already excited for that episode. [01:11:00] Okay. So my joy this week is, um, many of you may have already seen it, but the Andrea Gibson documentary, come See Me in The Good Light. Have
Kyley: Ooh, I, I fucking love Andrea Gibson and I have been wanting to watch this before she even passed away.
So tell me, tell
Eva: well, I strategically watched it when I was on my period because just like
Kyley: you would cry even more.
Eva: Yes, and I love it like hot tip for anyone who ever needs like a, like if you're not crying on your period, I actually think it's really good to find ways to make yourself cry because it's such a good release. Like I love the experience of crying on my period.
It's like so cathartic, but sometimes there's nothing to cry about. And so I will like go and intentionally, you know, sometimes it doesn't have to be a sad cry. Sometimes it's a happy cry or like a, a kid's movie, you know, that just like
Kyley: Yeah. Yeah. Up. Just go watch
Eva: Yeah, exactly.
Kyley: the first 20 minutes of that
movie [01:12:00]
Eva: And I think that there's actually something like the energy that moves through my system in those moments and like, I just like, it's like very cathartic and so I really
Kyley: and my womb is literally responding.
I'm like feeling like, as you're describing this,
Eva: Yeah, because I actually think we, we, we, we crave that release. We crave the, the release and also this, this, 'cause we are, I don't know, there's a lot going on, but also it's like delicious to be that emotional actually. But usually what happens is we try, try and shut it down. 'cause we're like, oh whatever.
Like for whatever reason we shut it down. But if you can like get it out, I actually think you're processing like a month's worth of shit. And then you set yourself up actually for like the following month too. 'cause you've like released. It's so, so for anyone who's gonna start their bleed soon and you need support in this process, it's like go check out Andrea Gibson's movie.
It is, it's a beautiful story of, I mean it's funny and heartbreaking, but it, it really is this movie of like chair like, you, [01:13:00] you, you leave and you just cherish life, you know? And it's a reminder of like that, of, of life being this beautiful gift. Which we forget when we're in like the inane, inane details of the everyday, you know, it's just beautiful to see someone who really wanted to live, you know, like she like to, to see how hard she fought to, or they, sorry, how, how hard they fought to live makes me just not want to take it for granted, you know?
And there's also a lot of stuff about body in there 'cause it's like, really what I walked away with is like, I struggle with chronic fatigue and it fucking sucks. And sometimes it's painful and, and frustrating and my bo and I feel physically uncomfortable. And also like what a privilege it is to have a body that aches and hurts and gets tired and, you know, bruises and, [01:14:00] yeah, like even if I don't like it, I, I have a sense that like my soul.
Like my, my soul feels really grateful to be able to be in a body that feels things, and it isn't for them. It's like, it isn't good or bad. It's, it's not like pain or pleasure. It's just a soul is like, oh, I'm in a human body. I'm having this like physical experience. Like this is amazing. Like stubbing your toe amazing, like burning your skin.
Amazing. You know?
Kyley: you
know, one time. First of all, that just feels like so much of Andrew Gibson's legacy, even when they were alive, that
feels like the heartbeat of so much of their poetry. I'm also thinking about, um, a year ago, one of my, one of our best friends from college, um, his mother passed away. And so we went to the wake and I hadn't met this woman, but we went, you know, to support our friend. And I was, um, like, like kneeling to give my respects, you know, in front of, uh, the casket. And I like [01:15:00] felt her energy come, this woman's energy coming so strong. And I shared this with my friend a couple months later, but I felt her come in so strong and she was like, don't you see I could cry again just thinking of it.
She was like, don't you see how beautiful? Oh, I'm gonna cry. Like, don't you see how beautiful all this is? Like all the heartbreak and all the love and like all the anguish and all the pleasure, like all of it is good. She was just over and over again. This, this like gift of this messages. Like all of it is good.
Don't you see how. All of it is good and it was such a gift. Like I didn't even get to know this woman when she was alive and she came in with just this exquisite gift that was just like, don't you see like all of it? Every single part of it is so good
Eva: Yeah. Yes, yes, yes. I mean, essentially I think that's, I imagine like what we feel in like the [01:16:00] last moments of consciousness when we are in between like the life and death phases when we're like, oh my God, everything was so beautiful. And I also think the gift is to not beat ourselves up for not seeing that it was beautiful.
Yeah. Because again, we don't need to act to be on our evolution. Like if we're not there yet, then that's all
good, but
Kyley: The not seeing that it was beautiful is its own kind of beautiful,
Eva: exactly.
Kyley: which is where then like life is laughing and it's just like, don't you see? Like,
Eva: Yes. You even not seeing that it's beautiful and being, yes. Well, that's so good. Oh my God. I think that's like the perfect, uh, place to end this conversation. So good. Full circle. Full circle. Okay. We love you so much listeners, Kylie, I love you so much and, uh, yeah. If you like this episode, share it with a friend, like, subscribe, leave a review, all the things.