Ellen Wong brings her deep wisdom around death, transformation and compassion, to a conversation we all deeply needed. How the hell do we show up for the world right now?
Ellen Wong brings her deep wisdom around death, transformation and compassion, to a conversation we all deeply needed. How the hell do we show up for the world right now?
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Ellen Wong
Eva: [00:00:00] Hello, beautiful hello universe family. It's Eva here. And I am so excited to share this week's episode with you truly from the bottom of my heart. Ellen Wong is. Such a wise, soulful, brilliant, beautiful being. And man, she brings the juice this week. Um, helping Kylie and I actually process a lot of things that we've been holding to with, you know, what's been going on in the Middle East.
But like, in a way that I think is just so compassionate [00:01:00] and empowering. Um, Yeah, this episode was the conversation that Kylie and I needed as a follow up to last week's episode. So, um, if you haven't listened to last week's episode, that was also just a real time processing for Kylie and I of like, let's talk about what's going on in the world, uh, in a productive way that I, that I don't actually think I'm seeing a lot of out there in the social media world.
Anyway, I'm seeing like a lot of finger pointing and, um. Honestly, just like more war, which is the antithesis, I think, of what I think is actually helpful. So, Ellen is someone who I met earlier this year, and immediately we just hit it off. I mean, Um, she doesn't even talk about this on the show, but she was actually approached to write a book for Hay House because I think the publisher at the time was like, she had shared this with me and the publisher had said, like, you are someone who [00:02:00] seems like you have something to say, and I just don't think that that could be more true, as in something powerful to say that I think is, um, just like a beautiful, empowering, um, perspective that's also you.
Been really thought out what's also amazing. And intriguing to me about Ellen is that she's an ethnogenic death companion, that is her title, which is, we talk about this on the show, but basically the way of saying that she helps people move through the process of death or maybe something ending with the help of plant medicine.
Um, based on her own experiences also of, um, experiencing death, uh, in her own life. And, I don't know, I think we do a really interesting job of, of, of, uh, bringing in her work and also this conversation about what's going on in the world together. Um, [00:03:00] yeah, we bring it together in a really, uh, beautiful and profound way.
But before we get to this week's episode, I want to share a few things with you. Kylie is running another free workshop on November 19th. This one is called a revolutionary wealth. And as she described it to me, the vibe is money. That feels like love money.
That feels like safety money. That feels like care. And That is Kylie's medicine. She's running it with Liz Simpson, who is a, you know, our favorite returning guest on our show, um, in promotion of their money course. I mean, I'd call it more than a money course. It's like a life transforming course through the portal of money called alchemy and Kylie.
I know I've been on a couple of Kylie's workshops. They always offer. So much perspective and inspiration and value for completely free. So if you are someone who wants money to [00:04:00] feel like care and safety and freedom and love, um, you can go to this workshop and I guarantee that you'll get something really beautiful out of it because, uh, when it comes to money.
Like, this is just where Kylie is, teaches around money in ways that I don't actually see a lot of other people doing. So that is November 19th. You can, um, sign up probably on her Instagram or in the link in our show notes and ask for me. I have room for one more. One on one client, as I continue on my journey of adventure.
Um, if you are someone who is looking to dedicate some time to your spiritual evolution, to deepening your spiritual self, which could mean really just creating a more beautiful relationship with your mind so that you can enjoy this world more. Um, that's my specialty. I have been in a place of [00:05:00] experiencing so much joy. And gratitude and love, even in the midst of some challenging things and. This is something that I want to share with all of you, this experience of we get to be really, really happy.
And I do think that that comes actually from our relationship with ourselves, our building a beautiful relationship with our minds, which And also a beautiful relationship with God and source and consciousness. And to me, that's what the spiritual journey is all about. I think that's what being a human is about.
If this is something that, um, speaks to you and you know that it's time, you can DM me and it's on Instagram or email me or apply on my website at evil layout. com. Okay. So now for this week's episode, introducing Ellen Wong.
Hello, Ellen. We are so excited to have you here on Hello [00:06:00] Universe.
Ellen: Thank you. Thank you. Thank you for having me. I've been looking forward to this and it feels like I should never question this anymore, but it feels like divine timing to be sitting here with you guys. Um, especially after this trip, I took to Kauai. I just feel like. I don't know when I was preparing this morning, just coming in, like preparing as in washing my face and getting myself ready for the day.
And it was just this feeling of calm and peace that, um, sometimes I don't have when I'm coming into communication or into relationship with other people, especially in a podcast. But today I was just like, man, I'm so ready to just share. I think so. Thank you.
Eva: well, I feel the same. I just, um, I can't wait to see what unfold, but I already have. I can see synchronicities coming up and we'll, I'll point to them later as they come up, I think. So, we would like to start off, uh, asking you our question of what is life teaching you in this moment?
Ellen: God, it's like, [00:07:00] where do I even begin? Like so much. Um,
I think right now, especially, you know, given this war that's happening in the Middle East, um, I'm really learning how to break away from dualities. I think that's the thing that is most front and center. It's the thing that I feel like this trip to Kauai really invited me into. And it's not that I did, it's not like it was a new concept for me, like that there's no good, no bad, no, you know, like black, no white, no, you know, it was just, I think with this war and with all this divisiveness, all this stuff that's happening, all these conversations, all this fighting that's happening on social media, as well as the literal fighting that's I'm just realizing, like, We are always either in our defensive self [00:08:00] or acting from our divine self. And they're really, we both, we have, we have both inside of us as an individual and as a collective. And so I think what I'm really learning is, you know, there was a moment in my life where I would say I was a very, very judgmental person. And if you weren't abiding by my personal values, I would be like, what the hell's wrong with you? But at this moment, I'm finding a lot of softening happening within me. And I think learning how to hold that softness and learning how to hold people who are committing atrocities, for lack of a better word.
how to hold them in compassion to, and that is extremely hard. Um, I'm finding it very challenging, but also I think this is where my work is right now.[00:09:00]
Eva: Ah, deep sigh of, I'm, Kylie, do you want to speak? I'm finding myself speechless because I think I'm processing and your words are resonating so deeply in my body right now.
Kyley: Yeah, even I just recorded an episode in which we kept saying we weren't going to talk about covering up the state of the world and current events and then immediately tricked ourselves into recording a two hour podcast about the state of the world. Um, and this, this very thing is like a big theme that I think individually and personally, we are also grappling with.
And so I'm so grateful for you speaking to it, right. Is that it. It's like my, I can, I can watch my system respond to, um,
that defensive posturing, you know, and I really love this, this framing of like our divine self and our defensive self. Um, and I was thinking about like [00:10:00] how my defensive self is reactive and reactionary and controlling, right? I mean, there's a softness in my divine self because she knows her power, right?
It's not the softness of like getting walked over, right? But, um, I'm, I'm, I've been watching, but I've just been watching my system respond to that defensive self, both in my, in my own, but also when I see it reflected and it's like, it's almost, I almost have this reaction where you ever. hear a sound or smell something or read something and your body feels icky and it takes you a minute to figure out what set it off.
Do you guys know that experience? And, and it's this defensive self thing that you're speaking to. Um, and, and I, I really appreciate a little bit of a challenge and point towards deeper integrity that I'm receiving what you're saying, which is, okay, if I'm noticing someone else's defensive self, how can I hold [00:11:00] that in compassion?
Right. Cause it's easy to judge that and be like, okay, that's just, you're, you're in a binary, you're being defensive, right? You're, you're missing the point or whatever, whatever. Right. And then that's just, uh, that's just another sneaky way of judgment coming in. And so what is the, what is the way of holding that other's defensive selves with, as you said, compassion that isn't my call coddling or apologizing or enabling.
Which feels, I mean, judgment feels a hell of a lot easier.
Ellen: Totally.
Kyley: Um, so I guess my question back. So first of all, just thank you for giving kind of deeper framing to something I've been grappling with. And then also, how do you do that? Or how are you walking yourself through that process?
Ellen: So, I think the way that And this is, there's like no good answer. Still very much like in the thick of [00:12:00] it, trying to wade through all of this myself. But I think what I find myself constantly thinking about or holding is. The defensive self is always acting from a place of a wound, right? So if I can challenge myself to see the wounded child or the wounded children that is causing harm, that is killing, that is, you know, doing all the things, um, committing the atrocities, like, can I... Not necessarily excuse it. It's not about excusing it or allowing it to be. I still believe that we need to speak up and, you know, protest and say all the things against what's happening. Um, no matter what side we are on, you know, no, whatever it is that we're feeling deeply, but I also feel like compassion has two sides to it.
There's, [00:13:00] I feel like a soft. You know, I want to say mothering kind of side, that soft place that you can hold somebody gently. And then there's also fierce compassion where you have to hold. them accountable to, you know, and there's anger there, but it's not a self righteous anger. It's an anger that I think is needed.
It's like a fire inside of you to protect what is sacred and protect what is important. Um, and in this case, what I'm talking about is like human life and, you know, I think we've all seen the footage of like millions of children and babies that are literally being slaughtered right now. So for me, I feel like me speaking out in my anger and rage is this, um, it's a form of compassion as well, you know, but it's not in calling somebody an, an evil, you know, um, how do I [00:14:00] even say it?
It's like, It's not in the name calling. It's not in the blaming. It's not in the hatred. It's more in the, um, like I, I can see why this is happening because of this huge wound of genocide that, you know, these people are carrying from World War Two. I mean, it's, it's like they, like, I feel like the Israeli people have been so, um. just been carrying this mass wound altogether for generations now, and it has still not been totally healed, and it really hasn't happened, like, it's, it's only been less than a hundred years, so, you know, I see it as, everything that's happening right now is wound upon wound upon wound, you know, I feel like what I personally am naming as a genocide right now is caused by.
another wound of genocide. Like this would not [00:15:00] be happening if the Israeli people hadn't lived through a genocide, you know? So it's like, I think in the greater context of like, the hurt people, hurt people kind of model, like putting it very, very simply, I can still call it out as this needs to stop. You know, this is hurting everyone, like this entire world, it's hurting humanity, but also I can see the wound and I can be very compassionate about the pain that these people are carrying as well, you know.
Um, so yeah, I don't know if that answers your question, but I think that's kind of how I'm, I'm seeing it now.
Kyley: yeah. Really, really beautifully. Really beautifully. And I also think, um, to the point of the wound, I mean, I think if we're going to speak to historical context too, I also just think it's important to witness how[00:16:00]
Jewish people carry this wound of genocide far before the Holocaust even happened, right? And oh, I could tear up even saying that. And so, um, And what I'm, what I want to speak to is just how, how, how deep these wounds are for everybody who's impacted. Right. And I really appreciate you putting that front and center how much this is like the screaming of people who have been really hurt by the world and are trying to
Eva: Well,
Kyley: to safety.
And.
Eva: but I think the issue is that people are navigating it through violence. You know what I mean? It's like that, and that is what has been so eye opening to me. It's like, so there's like the bigger picture of what's happening. And then also, and Kylie and I have spent a lot of time talking about this.
I think, I don't know, I've been talking about it with various people because I've just been, felt so, this experience [00:17:00] has just been so, I've been learning so much, but it's like, social media and the news is just like a reflection of really what's happening in the world. Because we're, so many people are just, From a hurt place posting things, which then can also seem, you know, it's very confusing if you, it could be from a good place, it could also come off as righteous, but it's still violence.
And it's because they're hurt and they're triggered. And so it's like, just like, almost like vomiting all of this stuff out from this hurt place, which I've been guilty of, by the way, which is why this is so humbling to me. It's why I also have the understanding that you were talking about. It's like, if there's no, it's not like, um, this compassion that you speak of is hard, but I actually find that when I can get there, I'm like, thank God for this compassion because it actually feels better because I actually feel like I have a way in now.
There's something I can, [00:18:00] I can be with this rather ever than before. It was just like finger pointing. And really what I'm speaking to is like the Trump administration and like, you know, black life mattered when that was going on and COVID like that was such a time of like, I'm looking back and I'm like, Oh shit. Was I the perpetrator? You know, like the, the perpetrator's wound or Kylie and I have talked about when the perpetrated becomes a perpetrator, it's like, Oh, I'm just acting with more violence. And I don't know if this is helping, which is why I'm really conflicted because, and sorry, I don't know if we talked about this last time, Kylie, but on the podcast, because we just recorded it, but it's like, that's why I'm conflicted about some of these, like, uh, activists I follow online who I like.
really look up to and like, admire their work. And it's also like, God bless them for what they're doing for. And also I'm just stepping back a little bit more and being like, [00:19:00] I don't, I don't know the answer, but I'm just looking at it as an, I wonder if there's a different way. Um, and so, yeah, I'm just in this middle of like great learning, I think.
Ellen: I
Eva: I'm sorry. Well, and what I was saying about the activists is like work that I admire, but also I In some ways where I also feel like it's just fighting back with more violence and that seems a little confusing to me.
Ellen: Yeah. It's like, I mean, it's so much to hold, right? And I find myself, um, It, I find myself kind of like, Feeling like I need to hold so much and I've written this statement to different people that I've been conversing with on social media, but the idea that we hold multitudes and you can, you know, You can be like for a free Palestine and [00:20:00] also not hate the Israeli army or the Israeli government and just, you can show them compassion as well.
You can show them, you know, you can understand why they're acting in this way from this total fear place from this, you know, place of, of trauma. It's like, you don't have, it's like, just because you're here, it doesn't mean that you have to. You know, it's like you're holding so many things and then to complicate that too, you know, so much of this.
This inner reflection was happening while I was on quote unquote vacation in this beautiful place in Kauai. And I found that was very new in my body is that I, I don't think the idea of a And I'm using this in quotes because when I booked this, it was like, okay, I need to go back to Kauai. I want to, you know, it's been seven years since I've been back there.
I [00:21:00] really have this like special connection to this place. I just want to go back. And I'm realizing like, The last time I was there, I checked out. I was still in my career. I was, you know, very much like overworked and burnt out. So I checked out. Vacations to me, to Kauai were like, get me the hell away from my life.
I just want to be in the ocean, not look at anything, not talk to anybody and just be in my little bubble of paradise away from all the stuff, you know, away from my life, away from my work, everything. This time I was like, I do not want to check out. I want to stay plugged in. I want to see these violent videos.
I want to, you know, stay like up to date with what's happening and sit here held by the earth in this beautiful place held by the ocean and reflect on all of this and come to this inner knowing of where I stand around, you know, What we were [00:22:00] just talking about around compassion and how I see it and what I was realizing was that I think this is what this trip for me was about.
It was how do I stay connected to the earth? How do I stay grounded and really here, here present in my body, connected to the earth? While holding all these things and and realizing like that's the only way I can hold multitudes. That's the only way I can hold both tremendous grief and pain at the same time that I'm like, just Holding so much joy and gratitude for being able to swim with sea turtles in the ocean, like it, that both are happening simultaneously.
And this is something that I don't really experience in regular, ordinary consciousness, but it's something that I experience often when I'm journeying with the sacred mushroom in a non ordinary state of consciousness. Constantly, it's like [00:23:00] tears, but the tears are like both. extreme grief, like sadness, and also just pure gratitude and joy.
And I remember the first time it happened during a mushroom journey. I was just like, what is, what is this? You know, like, there's so much, there's so much feeling so much emotion pouring out of me through my tears, but it's not all like,
Eva: Yeah, there's no label. There's no story like it's it's what you're talking about. No duality, but I also think it's it's beyond language and we're beyond language. There is no good or bad or right or wrong. It's just it all is and that's really that's not really hard for our like intellectual mind grasp because you know, we try to understand like it's binaries help us understand things and I think in what you're speaking to different [00:24:00] You know, more opened states.
It's like the it's direct experience rather than like a thinking of everything just is.
Ellen: Yeah, like an understanding, like a cerebral intellectual understanding. It's a felt experiential, I mean, that's a double, like it's, I was going to say experiential experience, but,
Kyley: Yeah.
Ellen: but that's what really what it is. It's like an, like a body, like a somatic understanding, which doesn't compute, you know, with words.
You're absolutely right.
Kyley: Yeah. This has been so much my experience looking at the, you know, world events right now. Um, I have two small kids and I, you know, keep having these really, you know, like the other day my son. Accidentally slammed the door on his grandmother's ankle and she was okay, but she like, like basically collapsed on the floor for a minute and she was, she [00:25:00] was fine, but, but I watched.
Him just like shrivel into shame and, you know, I helped my mom, we got her an ice pack when she was like, okay, we didn't break her ankle. Um, then I went and spent a lot of time with my son, like basically it was very sweet and I felt really grateful to be resourced to do this, but I, I just. Had him hug me and I had him say in his heart, I love Desi.
I love Nana. I love Desi. And he would like back and forth until I could kind of feel that he wasn't churning. And then we had a long conversation about like how there's no one to blame, but we're responsible. And, and I'm sharing, which was like a whole time. I was also just like, so it was, it was this moment of like being really present with my son, really, really grateful that I'm resourced to do this.
And also like really heartbroken for the world because. At the same time that I'm like, tenderly walking my son through unhooking from [00:26:00] shame about like a car door, mothers are burying their babies, like, and it's. It's actually unimaginable, you know, and, um, and I, and I just keep going back to this, this truth, which is it is both at the exact same time.
And it feels, it feels like a kind of, it's a lie that creates an illusion of safety. If I just pick one, right, if I just lock my eyes on the news and ignore the way that I have such an abundance of safety and love in my life, that is a lie just as much as locking in on my kids and saying, la, la, la, I can't hear you.
And, um, And yeah, and, and I, I think not only is it true, but I also think that there's something in allow, the allowing of paradox that feels like the key to creating something new for all of us.
Ellen: Yeah.
Eva: [00:27:00] so glad you brought up the topic of safety, Kylie, because I think that is so important. What I have found in my experience is that black and white is the illusion of safety. It feels. Safer, right? And,
Ellen: Yeah.
Eva: and at first, I think what you're speaking to, Ellen, this idea of like, You're feeling so much and your brain can't compute and it's like maybe a system overloading your way and you're crying tears of like deep grief and sadness, but also ultimate extreme joy and love and gratitude.
And it's like our brain likes to short circuits and explodes. And so it seems like that, at least in my experience, I have felt like that feels more unsafe. And then as I, like, let go into it, I'm like, Oh, wait, actually, no, no, no, binaries are fucking so unsafe. They drive me, like, I can feel it in my body.
The binary causes tension in me because it's out of line with reality. And anything that goes against reality is going to make us feel crazy or unsafe. Whereas in [00:28:00] reality, it just, it all really just isn't that. If I can let go into it, then I can like, Oh, that's actually safer. And so easier said than done.
I can say that now. But there have been many times where I see myself contracting back into binaries just because it's, you know, more familiar.
Ellen: Yeah, I love what you're saying about it's like, it's the resistance, you know, anytime you feel because a binary, there's always a resistance present in a binary, right? Because if you're on this side, then there's a resistance to this side. And when you let go of that, and you just are then suddenly. I'm like now starting to see the world a lot more in energy and energy flow, like giving and receiving and yin and yang and like allowing this energy to flow freely within and around us and through us.
And so when you think about binaries, I just, it's like, you just see that wall, you know, that literal break point between this and that. And so, I mean, [00:29:00] I'm always so fascinated by what. The universe decides to throw down to us. And I mean, COVID was a huge thing. It's like, Oh my gosh, what are we going to do?
You know, how are we going to show up here? And you see it all. You see the whole gamut of how people are responding to that. Same thing, I think with this war, um. You know, it's, I think, to pick a side, I feel like, yeah, it's, it's, you're so right. It's like clinging to that sense of safety. It's like, you know, it's, it's tried to use it as like a, like a sports teams as a metaphor, but It's so interesting the way it's like politics too.
It's like, there's, I'm either Democrat, I'm right or on my left. I'm, you know, and over the last couple of years, I found myself like, I definitely swing more, you know, obviously progressive liberal, but the, I'm seeing that like these. The, the wall in between the two, it's not quite so clear anymore for [00:30:00] me, you know, I can see myself voting for somebody who's on the other side, the other side being the right, you know,
Eva: Or, or being like a libertarian. If you're a libertarian, then you're a weirdo. Like that's, that's the other, for me, the story of like, I'm like, okay, so you've got the left and the right. And you can only be one of these two because we, we know these two, but if you're in the middle, then you're just like, you're really out there.
You know what I mean? Like stories of like, just to say that, just to use an example of like, it doesn't feel safe.
Kyley: Yeah. I mean, I will also say on the same note, I was thinking about this this morning and I feel very uncomfortable saying this. So that feels like all the more reason to say it. Um, I, I mean, I, like, before my kids were born, I was like a total politics junkie, like, you know, tried and true. I mean, I grew up, I was lived in Cambridge, Massachusetts for a decade.
Right. Which is called the people's Republic of Cambridge. Right. And so, and was a grad school student in gender studies. Right. Like we know, which and. Right. Um, and this morning I was, I was watching the, like, tremendous disillusionment that I [00:31:00] feel with, like, the political system, have felt for a while. And I saw like a voting sign up and I thought, and I don't know what I will do, but I had the feeling, I'm not interested in participating because I actually don't even believe in this whole system, you know,
Ellen: So with you , so
Eva: so with
Kyley: was, and that was so mind blowing to me because it's like. I mean, again, it's this question of like, but real people's lives, right. Are like affected by this. And also really feeling like a truth in my body. That's like, this whole thing is a lie and none of it is actually taking care of people. And I am, I, I am not interested in participating to enable that these two fundamentally fucked up choices are doing anything to help the actual people who are.
Dying and starving and drowning. Like,
Ellen: It's bullshit. It's all [00:32:00] bullshit.
Eva: bullshit. And girl, I'm so happy that you're speaking to this because I've been thinking about this too recently, but I didn't have the, the ovaries to say it out loud. As opposed to balls. Like, I didn't have that because I was like, oh my god, wait. I'm like, I truly, and I haven't had this, like, I haven't fully processed this out loud, so this might have to be another episode, but it is the fear of like, yeah, this fear of yes, real people's lives.
And also, am I allowed to go off into this other direction that might feel like a deep end? I don't know. There's just something, to me, a little bit scary about it. And if I'm being totally honest, as I reflect in myself right now, it probably has a lot to do with also how I'm perceived.
Ellen: Mm-Hmm.
Kyley: to me.
Eva: What do you mean
Kyley: Like, like, like, like, like, like, um, you know, if you're a heretic, then you're like branded like dangerous and the outsider and, um,
Eva: And you're untrustworthy is
Kyley: and you're [00:33:00] untrustworthy
Eva: and my fear is like losing my mind. And also the other fear I've been talking with Kylie about with this whole, with actually like. going on in the world right now is this fear of being cast out of love. And I think that's ultimately the fear that all of us have. And that is so accentuated by cancel culture, right?
Ellen: Yes.
Eva: that, I mean, that's what cancel culture is. It's like, it's like, okay, you are. We're cancelling, we're throwing you out of, like, the group, and you are no longer valid. And that's really painful.
Ellen: I've been sitting with this idea of cancel culture ever since my, I mean, it's for a while, but like, it really got accentuated when I did my death doula training in March and I came out of that training and I just started sitting with this idea of like, fear of death. Like, what is this fear of death that we, especially in the West are so, you know, I mean, you see it in like this.
[00:34:00] insistence to like not age ever, you know, especially here in California. But I think what I started to realize was I, I personally hold this wound of abandonment. That's something that I've walked with my entire life. And I believe it's also ancestral, but I started to really look.
Kyley: high five.
Eva: Love this!
Kyley: Right.
Eva: Share trauma!
Ellen: yeah. Right. But like, what is abandonment?
But the fear of death, you know, because. Back when we were tribal and everybody served a particular role and we were in much smaller kind of like tribes versus these huge communities or, um, you know, if you were canceled from your tribe or left out ostracized, that meant death. And so we, I think now in, in these modern times, I feel like this idea of cancel culture is kind of like the [00:35:00] new form of that, but ultimately cancel culture.
is this fear of death. If you don't have your tribe around you, then you're left out in the cold. You can't survive, you know? And so this is what we still hold like on a cellular level in our bodies. But especially with what's happening right now, I mean, I definitely felt this way. With COVID too, where I was one of those who was just holding out on that vaccine as long as possible until finally I was just like, Oh, it's just going to like ruin my life if I can't get it.
Cause I'm not going to be able to go anywhere. But I was one of those who was like super dubious and I had to really. You know, I was living with my, my husband who was very much like, no, get it now, get it now. And that became this, like, I I'm, it's a small miracle that we're still married and like doing great now, but like, that was a huge thing, you know?
And then I'm seeing now the same thing happening with this [00:36:00] war. It's like, it's, I feel like there's this, um, there's this, it's bringing out a lot of. I think fear in all of us to actually speak out what it is that we really feel, you know, for fear, because it's so violent on both sides. The, the verbal violence is so intense, but I really had to kind of like, Work up to it.
And I remember there was like a day where it was right before I left for Kauai But I sat down and I was pulling Oracle cards for myself and literally every single card was like speak up show yourself Speak up show yourself, you know, I'm like god damn it. Okay, you know and that was the first day I actually like Made a public post about what I was feeling and, you know, not, not about what side I was on, but kind of even saying the word genocide or free Palestine puts you on a side, you know, but I think the reality, at least the one I see in front of me [00:37:00] is just because you are saying free Palestine doesn't mean that you are anti Semitic or, you know, against Israelis, you know what I mean?
It's, it's like there again, there's the binary. So I think that's what makes it so scary. Okay.
Eva: Yes. And also what's complex about that is also I 100 percent agree and I had a personal experience where I had to like contend with that with a really close friend of mine. And then also what I noticed was that I'm like getting defensive and I'm like, well, there's nuance here. Like, can't you hold space for nuance?
And then understanding like, oh wait, um, this person is like, or these people who are maybe interpreting like a free Palestine message as antisemitic is. They're interpreting it that way because they don't feel safe, and they're so, you know, activated and dysregulated in their body that that's a, that's like a fear response.
And, and then also feeling a deep compassion [00:38:00] for, Oh, like I hurt somebody that I really care about. And, and also holding that complexity of like, I want to speak my truth and also feeling grief because my friend doesn't feel safe in the world. And, and, and being able to express myself in this way. And again, not to say that I'm, I think, and then it gets tricky because it's like, well, I think we're all responsible for our own responses, but I can also, I don't know, I just felt like it was a beautiful moment of, instead of for me being defensive, being like, well, it's not my fault, you can't hold nuance, which is not what I said, but like, my defensive mind was thinking was like, was more like, oh, yeah, I just see that this is just pain, you know, on someone else's end.
Kyley: yeah.
Eva: uh, it's
Kyley: And, sorry, sorry, I'll
Eva: no, go ahead. No, I was
Kyley: just say, and at the end, [00:39:00] in addition to the pair, in addition to like binary is, is a lie. It's also that there are all the things happening all the time, right? Meaning there is a lot of antisemitism happening from people who are, right? There are, there are people who are very antisemitic and there, this, this is like a fucking moment for them.
Right. Right. And, and also saying. You know, free Palestine is not inherently anti Semitic. And, and so there's, so part of the, there's a way that we can see binary, I think, or like to step out of binary as like pulling up this false divider between two things, but it's actually to acknowledge that all the things are happening at all the fucking, all the time, right.
Which is also system overwhelmed, which is also really, uh, complicated. Um, and I, I think. As I just wanted to speak to that in particular, and then the other thing I was thinking about, as you were talking about covid [00:40:00] is, um, uh, you know, I have some people who are very, very close to me who are very opposed to the vaccine and I have people who are very, very close to me who are very pro the vaccine and I watched myself.
I can hear both of them and. See, completely. It was very, very clear to me. I was like, Oh, I understand a, I understand how a plus B equals C for you. And I understand how, how this equals something else. Like I, this makes perfect sense from both of you, why this is a decision you need to make. It feels very clear to be like, okay, you do you and you do you.
And what was really hard for me was watching my dad. And I actually got in a really big fight about this, um, was watching. What I found myself really angry about was like, I'll use my dad as an example, he was really, he was really angry with people who didn't agree with him. Right? And I felt like, you do you, and then mind your fucking business.
Eva: Yeah. Oh[00:41:00]
Kyley: Yeah, and, and so, and I, I, I don't know why I'm, I'm, I don't know why I wanted to share that story, other than. I don't know why I wanted to share that story that just came up loud when you were, were sharing that, that there's, I guess there's something,
there's something in all of this, there's, there's something in all of the way you're speaking about compassion that I think is really important. And when you were talking about anger and using your, like, using, like, allowing the anger to be vocalized, what I heard is anger. That is an invitation instead of anger.
That is a self righteous door slam.
Ellen: Yeah.
Kyley: That I know the difference in my body when my anger is an invitation versus when it's a like fuck and sometimes we need a fuck off anger. Right? So I'm not making that wrong, but I, that's just what I'm hearing is like the anger that is, that is somehow an invitation into something better rather than a casting out kind of anger.
Um, [00:42:00] and I'm curious. If that explanation. Resonates with you if you could speak more to, I don't know how we hold that or allow that kind of
Ellen: That kind of anger, you know, anger is something that I feel like also it was never like to me how anger should be healthily expressed. So that's something that I am, you know, really, I think in this whole experience, really contending with like how I'm the, like I had, um, a recent experience where a neighbor screamed at me and pepper sprayed my dogs because they were barking at him like through the fence, which is not, not okay.
And not
Eva: my God. No, my face right now is, jaw dropped. My jaw just dropped. Okay.
Ellen: Yeah, it was not okay. And you know, he was screaming at the top of his lungs in some Saturday morning at me [00:43:00] also and calling me all kinds of names. And um, and I just stood there, I stood there and I was like, kind of frozen. I think that was actually, I was literally in my freeze response cause I'm like.
What is happening right now? You know, it took me a second to just even register like why is this person screaming at me? And what is that smell and then and then I started coughing But I have a very hard time Connecting to my anger because it was always shown to me Or, or I was taught that being angry is not good or okay.
It's not what a good kid does, you know. It's not what an obedient child does. You know, you don't tantrum, you don't fight back, you listen to your elder. It's like that whole traditional Chinese upbringing kind of thing. Um, and plus Christianity on top of that. And so you have like both of these things, just like, I was just like, okay, well, anger is just not acceptable.
So it's only [00:44:00] now that I'm starting to really confront all the ways I feel anger, you know, and I love Kylie, what you said about there's, there's like, I just literally posted about this like two days ago about how. Audre Lorde had termed, um, uh, she was, I think she was saying something about hate versus, um, I want to say the, I'm not going to even try to like replicate the quote cause I'm going to butcher it.
But in essence, like I, it brought me to this one article that Was, um, from a philosopher who was talking about all the different forms of anger. And she was talking about narcissistic anger being anger that is only about you and your, and whatever happened, violating you only as an individual. And then she was also talking about how, um, shoot, what was the second?
She talked, she talked about a couple of [00:45:00] different kinds of anger and Lord Lordian anger is like what she was calling, like inspired by Audre Lorde. Um, anger was an anger that was on behalf of the, it's like, it's not just about you as an individual. It's you and the, the greater good, the greater collective.
And it was just, it was just such a good distinction to me that I was like, okay. I need to just hold on to this and just sort of sit with it for a while because It helped me to understand like in this case I think with the war and everything that i've been feeling Because you do feel a lot of anger when you're scrolling through and you're just like how the hell Can this be?
Okay, you know, how can all of this? What feels like just murder plain murder? How can this actually be? Okay and justified? um [00:46:00] What I think I'm feeling is the Lordean kind of anger because it's not like every, we're all connected. So everything is about us, but it's also about everyone too, you know? So I think in this case, because I recognize my privilege and not being, you know, literally there in the Middle East, like I recognize my privilege.
Like being someplace beautiful while witnessing all of this. Like there's almost a little bit of guilt that I have to kind of like contend with because I feel like, do I even deserve to have an opinion about this, you know, but the fact that we are all human and we're all connected makes us all. Part of this, like this affects us no matter what, you know, even if we are sitting on the complete opposite side of the world in a completely different situation.
And so the anger that I'm feeling right [00:47:00] now, it feels very like I just really, I just, it's, it's really for the babies that are never going to be named or be recognized as, um, I'm talking about the babies that are literally like. Dying before they're even put onto the Israeli registry, which apparently like their registry controls the Palestinian registry as well of citizens who are born into the, you know, so there's many kids that are being born right now.
literally in the middle of this, who are also dying in the middle of this, who will never be recognized as citizens. You know, it's almost like they've never, they never existed, you know, to me, I feel like that is just so hard, like beyond heartbreaking, you know, to, to deny somebody's existence. Like this, this new child was never given a chance to live [00:48:00] beyond like a few hours, even, you know, and also they.
Never made it to be recognized as like, you know, it's like, it's only their parents and the parents is, you know, direct community that will actually know of the existence of this child. There's something about this that just hits me so hard, you know, among all the other horrible things are happening, but just, I think, and honestly, this is the first time I'm speaking.
Out loud about this. So I'm, I'm like in mid processing, this is like what you're witnessing right now. I'm sitting with like, why does this like piss me off so much? And why does this break my heart so much? I think it's like the deservingness that we all have to exist is a divine right. And it's a divine right, also a birthright for us to be witnessed by [00:49:00] others. And so it feels like. Even more, I don't know how to say it, like even more, um, violating to not even allow people to claim the existence of this baby that this mother has been carrying inside of her for, you know, 10 months.
until this birth that happened, because, and then the death, the subsequent death that happened and, um, and for this child not to even be recognized as a living human, even for the short time that it was alive. I don't know. It just, it's, there's something about this that feels very, yeah,
Eva: I mean, the, the ratio of that is just incredibly cruel. I think it's, it's, I mean, at the end of the day, as simple as it is, I think we all, it really comes down to like the importance of being seen and heard [00:50:00] is like kind of, I think what sustains us and they don't even have a chance for that. Yeah.
Ellen: yeah. It's, Like, I'm having a really hard time actually like finding the words to describe what I'm feeling about it. It just feels so, like in my body, it feels so wrong. And you're right. I think you're, the, the word erasure is exactly, exactly. It's like they're being erased even at the point of like, Um, of birth.
Do you know what I mean? Like, there's, there's something that just feels so, ugh, I don't know. I, I, I truly don't have the words.
Kyley: also, like, what is genocide, but an attempt to erase a people, right? And you're pointing to, I think, this, like, very easily recognizable in the, like, you're pointing to a, like, very [00:51:00] strong indicator of that very thing.
Ellen: Mm hmm.
Kyley: the other thing that I'm struck by listening to what you're speaking to, This is concept of Lourdian anger and this idea that our singular voice is important.
You said something really beautiful, I think a lot of people feel right now, which is like, who am I to have an opinion? And I'm feeling how opinions are irrelevant because they are like of the mind. And, and, and yet there is a truth that lives inside of each of us. And I think, I think, and I, I'm feeling how, if we are in touch with this kind of Lourdian anger, this collective.
Anger that is, that has room for compassion and also has a sense of anger about what is unacceptable. I'm also feeling into how each of us has, um, our own truth, our own self expression in [00:52:00] that, that we can weave together, right? Because what you're speaking to is very potent. And also, runs adjacent to the thing that I keep feeling, right, the loudest piece for me in this as a mom of two small kids is like, these mothers who deserve a chance to
raise their children in love and safety. Every mother on the planet deserves the chance to raise their children in love and safety. That is non negotiable. That should be non negotiable. And if the world that we are building isn't oriented around that, then what the fuck are we doing? Like,
Ellen: Mm hmm. Mm
Kyley: an in In hearing what you are speaking and feeling this, I'm just thinking about how, um, the call to really use our voices from this place of anger that is compassionate, [00:53:00] um, because each one of us have something singular to contribute. That's not an opinion, but is a loving, angry truth. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.
Ellen: as you were just speaking, um, and just witnessing your emotion too, what's coming up for me is that perhaps the way that we speak anger, compassionate anger, is by focusing our words and our, yeah, focusing our words and our expression on our own pain. Versus the blaming and the lashing out and the external, you know, vitriol towards those who are on the other side.
I use that as, [00:54:00] as, you know, just people who are not seeing the world the way we do. If we focus more on our own expression, on our own pain, and what Our witnessing of the world is causing within us and being honest and truthful about the way we express our own pain. Again, from an individual standpoint, I feel like that's how we can actually speak compassionately while holding this rage and this anger. It's, it's more about us. It's like, does that make sense? It's like keeping that energy within us versus shooting it at other people.
Eva: what I'm hearing. This is just so helpful, [00:55:00] both of you, seriously, thank you so much, like, but what I'm hearing y'all say, or, and something that I'm taking away from this is like, there's an anger that creates separation, and there is a anger that, um, doesn't create separation, meaning, you know, the, the canceling, the either you agree with me, or you're out, it's not an invitation, it's, that's, I think, and I'm just seeing this so clearly now because I do think actually so much of what I've been thinking about recently is this delusion of separation, that we're separated, but I think there's an anger in which we are expressing our own truth that isn't finger pointing or a casting out, but invites people in to say, and this too is true.
And can all of this be true?
Ellen: Yeah.
Eva: think it's just, it's really fascinating to me that [00:56:00] there's an anger. That isn't intended to create separation, not to say that it won't cause separation and that's very different because I think what you're also speaking to Ellen is like, like, it's scary to speak our truth because it can be device like some people will just not agree, right?
Like, that's just the truth. Not everyone is going to agree with you that's, that's okay. And I also think that's, um, a price that maybe needs to be paid if, if there, if we live in a divisive world and you want to say something that feels true to you, but. Yeah. While it might, it might inadvertently cause separation, it's not the intention.
Ellen: Right. I heard Gabor Mate say something really interesting yesterday on some posts I was scrolling through where he was talking about, um, I'm going to, I'm going to look up the word that he specifically used because I feel like it's important to get this particular thing. Right. But, um, he [00:57:00] was talking a little bit about, um, Attachment versus authenticity and like, That there's always going to be a conflict between attachment, like your attachment to other people and what they think of you and you being authentic to who you are, but you get to choose, like, which pain it's like the conflict, I think his direct quote is the conflict between attachment and authenticity is a painful one, but you can decide which pain you want.
So do you want the pain of, um, attachment, which kind of may sometimes deny you or silence you from your authentic voice and your authentic truth, your authentic emotion and expression of what, what you're experiencing in this moment? you choose that attachment, you know, to stay with? the herd, so to speak, stay with the loved ones, stay with the people that [00:58:00] you call your tribe, or do you choose authenticity?
And by doing so, you honor yourself and your voice and your truth. And I think there's things that you May lose in both cases, you know what I mean? But you get to decide which you want to lose, which kind of pain you want to actually experience. Mm
Eva: and I think that's so important that this choice though, you know, having a choice, like a conscious choice, a choice of awareness, I think always makes things a little bit easier. And I want to actually share one more thing that Kylie said to me the other day, because really, that you said to me offline, Kylie, that was just so that's been really resonating with me that I want to share with other people in case it's helpful.
But, you know, Ellen, I had the same thought of, like, my fear is that, like, I'm ignorant to really, like, Like [00:59:00] there's so much history between like Palestine and Israel and I'm like I have to go and learn everything and watch all the YouTube videos before I can actually say something because I don't want to say because I don't I I do need to know like in human design I'm like a one I'm a one force like the the one in me wants to know information to like keep me safe so I don't say the wrong thing um and then Kylie you were like yeah but there's a difference between wisdom and knowledge and so like I'm looking for knowledge so that I can make sure that I don't like say something ignorant, um, and you pointed me towards wisdom, which is like, there's direct knowing of what I know to be true.
And, and as you, you know, your truth is mothers should be able to raise their children in safety. Like that, that's it. Simple, simple that we don't, that's just it. And that's wisdom. So regardless of whether or not, you know, the history of what the fuck has gone on between yeah. Um, you know, these places and, and that was just has been so helpful for me to continue to come [01:00:00] back to like, but what do I know to be true?
Kyley: And if I could elaborate on that, too, I think for me, wisdom lives in my body and knowledge is a tool of the mind and I don't even want to make knowledge wrong because I think wisdom can be informed by right, but they're just 2 different things. And, and when you were speaking, Ellen, about, like, speaking from our own experience, or what we know to be true, making it about ourselves and our own pain and our own awareness, um, this kind of lordian, compassionate. Revolutionary anger. I feel like, um, it's, it, it lives, it comes from the body. It lives in my body. That's, and that's where wisdom exists. The mind doesn't understand wisdom. It doesn't track and wisdom, you know, um, and that can also be for me, a helpful tell is like, well, where am I operating from in this moment?
Am I seeking knowledge, which is right or wrong? And can I have finger blaming, you know, finger pointing or [01:01:00] am I operating from wisdom, which. Okay. It's just lives a layer beneath that,
Ellen: Right. I think I so appreciate what both of you guys are saying, because like, Eva, I feel like what you just, I, I completely, that's been my experience too. Like, I need to know the history. I need to understand all the things so that I can speak from a knowledgeable perspective and not eat my words or whatever.
And I think what I'm realizing is that like, when you're Just watching what is happening and highly what you're saying, like you're having a visceral reaction in your body of this emotion that's coming through what it is that you're feeling in this moment, just watching in real time, not even necessarily like knowing what happened, knowing all the 10, 000 steps before this very moment. you're feeling is your truth, you know, and so you don't [01:02:00] really need, like, I think what we look for in the knowledge is justification. Am I justified in feeling this? Am I justified in, like, having this expression or, you know, and having this emotional, um, experience? Am I justified? And that really doesn't matter.
Your experience is just your experience. So, If I'm seeing a video of a dead baby and I'm crying, that is my truth. It doesn't fucking matter that, well, this person, you know, like shot this person's person, you know, wife. And then that way it's like the story behind it doesn't even matter anymore. It's just, I am crying at this moment because this.
Poor baby never had a chance to live a full life, even a week, you know, that is my experience and that is what I want to actually express and communicate. It's about the pain that I'm experiencing, which in essence is. The truth. [01:03:00] I feel like I've been talking a lot lately with my circles about like, what exactly is truth.
Like when we say the word truth, I think a lot of times I think we, we kind of think of it as like our beliefs and our values. That is our truth. And yes, that, that does pertain to that too. But I think really simply our truth is just what we are experiencing in the moment, in the very present moment. This is our truth.
I'm feeling sad. I'm feeling a lot of grief, you know, I don't need to know why I don't need to have an answer. I don't need to understand the full story. My truth is that I'm holding a lot of grief. And also at the same time, I'm holding a lot of gratitude for just being alive right now in this moment for being able to have a meal after this, you know, for the food I get to put in my bodies, the nourishment I get to have.
I'm feeling both things. And these are both my truth and I'm [01:04:00] grateful for that, you know, but it's as simple as just what it is that we're feeling, you know, no story, no nothing beyond that, just what we're feeling in our bodies. So I really agree with, with both of you.
Eva: Okay, this conversation, I'm just so deeply appreciative of, and I just want to be mindful of time because we're, you know, we've got a little bit of time left and we haven't even gotten into other juicy bits. I mean, we haven't even gotten into what you do, Ellen. I'm already in my mind tracking, okay, you're going to have to come back.
So like.
Kyley: right? Yes.
Eva: so if we don't, if we don't get to it, if we don't get to it, we can just get to it in another conversation. So I do want to offer that,
Ellen: It's all good. I think this neat, I needed this conversation, like in a big way. I, this has been so healing and nourishing for me. So thank you both.
Eva: but I, I do want to like open up the invitation. We can continue, this is like a choose your own adventure and this is to both, both of you.
Like we can [01:05:00] keep going with this. I'm sure there's so much more to unpack or also Ellen, is there anything, maybe anything else alive for you in your work or anything that. You'd like to share with some, a question that I often ask at the end is like, is there a question we didn't ask you that, that you know, that you'd like to talk about?
Um, and I guess, Mike, this is the version of that question.
Kyley: make it a true choose your own adventure and offer a third choice too, which is I am intrigued by your work as a, as a death doula, as you look at death on such a large scale
Eva: Yeah, that's, yeah, that's
Kyley: and kind of how, how that, if that informs your work or, or, or how you, yeah, how you approach your work with that context.
Does that question make sense?
Ellen: it does. So I call myself an entheogenic death companion. Because what I really [01:06:00] do in my work right now is I, I walk with people through death portals. I haven't had the chance and the honor yet of actually walking with somebody through their end of physical life yet. And I really hope to have that opportunity.
I have a feeling it's probably going to be my mom. She might be my first person. Um, which is, you know, she's got many years from now. I, I think, I don't know for sure. None of us know for sure.
Eva: But can you say, what was the, what did you say? An ethno. Ethno what? Death doula.
Ellen: Entheogenic
Eva: And what is that
Ellen: Companion.
Eva: and what does that mean?
Ellen: Entheogenic means, entheogenic medicines are essentially medicines that, um, awaken the God within you. So they're, you know, in the Western term, you would call them psychedelic medicines, but they're essentially medicines. Like I specifically work with cannabis and I work with the sacred mushroom, but we journey with these medicines, their spirit medicines.
And so they open up. And [01:07:00] allow you to connect with the energy within you and the energy around you. And by doing so, you really are able to connect more deeply with your divinity, with the God within, you know? And, um, to me, I feel like it's, it's, it's really where my personal healing has taken place. Um, especially my healing with grief, I feel like breath work and medicine work, spirit medicine work together have been just a beautiful, um, just beautiful, like allies for me to kind of.
Befriend my grief. And so I think right now, you know, the idea of a death portal is really just any big transformation, any big life change, and it doesn't even have to be big necessarily, but I work with people who are going through, you know, they're, they're making big moves in their life, like literally moving geographically.[01:08:00]
Eva, I think this, you know, definitely pertains to you too. Um, and like, I, and there's people who have. Um, gone through breakups, you know, who find me and I, I mentor them through a big life transition through, you know, one ending of a relationship and what that means for their life, you know, so that's how I define death portal is really any big.
transition in your life that will bring about change, bring about some sort of new perspective on your identity. And we all, we all go through this many, many times in our life. Right. And, um, to me,
Eva: also work with people who are pass or people who are holding the grief of a loved one passing
Ellen: yeah, absolutely.
Eva: Yes. That's definitely part of it too. I, I assumed actually, that's what I thought the majority of your work was. So I, so it's good to know that it actually expands to basically all transitions of death and rebirth.
Ellen: Yeah, because grief [01:09:00] really happens in any transition, right? Anytime you have a letting go, there's grief present. Even if it's a letting go that you want, even if you're the one who's like stepping away, there's always a, you know, a grieving period of, you know, Something's different, something's changing, you know, the connection, you know, the energetic connection that you have to this place, this person, this whatever, this job is now shifting in nature.
And so there's a letting go, there's a shifting of that energy, there's a grief. So yeah, absolutely. Grief work is a big thing that I, um, that I hold space for and I companion people through to, um, But yeah, I think during something like this where there's so much grief, like I, I recently just, um, offered this free breathwork and grief, um, circle, um, words are like, I feel like [01:10:00] I'm still in island time.
Words aren't super flowing for me today,
Eva: no, good, hold on to that. Hehehehe. Hehehehe.
Kyley: I mean, I also find that when I like when our conversation has been so potent and I feel like we, you know, have been resting in a place that exists beneath language, even as you've been using language. And whenever that happens, those are also moments for me that. Like language gets wobbly. Cause it's the part that there's a part of me that's awake.
That's like language is so silly
Ellen: I know
Kyley: need that. I go with the mushrooms. It's like stop talking lay on the earth, you know, be a log decompose for a bit.
Eva: Okay, that's so funny. I'm like, stop talking. This is coming from three women who have podcasts. Like, you know what I mean?
Ellen: Totally.
Eva: Like, we love talking, right?
Ellen: much. Yes. Yes. I know.
Eva: Hehehehe.
Ellen: that holding of like processing and also [01:11:00] feeling at the same time. It's so hard to do. Um, but yeah, I feel like there's, there's just so much grief right now in the collective. And I think we're not really taught how to grieve. I don't feel like, you know, um, it's, it certainly was a model to me when I was younger.
And I feel like, Any kind of pain. We're so pain averse here that something like grief, you know, we, um, pathologize it, you know, now there's, there's even, there, there's, I think something called, um, again, my language is like, not here right now, but it's not acute grief. It is. prolonged grief. It's basically, there's a, there's a very medicalized term for a prolonged grief that is now considered a, um, you know, it's, it's something that you can be diagnosed and, which is on one hand, great because you can get time off, pay time off and, you know, [01:12:00] your insurance can cover it and things like that.
But that also came about, I think after George Floyd. And so you have this whole swath of people who are grieving and suddenly becomes pathologized. Like it's something that's like bad, you know, fix it. Yeah. Yeah, exactly. Like, you know, fix racism, you know? Um, so, you know, it, it, it kind of like there's, there's pros and cons to both of it, but I feel like, I think for me, at least my relationship with grief, I've, I've learned to love it.
I've learned to walk with it like it is a teacher and a friend. And I feel like by leaning in and not resisting my grief anymore, but allowing grief to kind of show me things and. Help me to connect more deeply with myself and with other people. Um, it's, it's just allowed me to have more space to [01:13:00] and allow the pain to be present too.
And when you allow the uncomfortable stuff in life to be present and not resist it, but just honor it as a part of this natural cycle of living, then I feel like not only does it lessen the pain, you know, or at least the time period of that pain. Um, but it also allows you to come back into right relationship with what I believe to be the universe, the world, the earth, you know, these natural cycles like death is the one thing that is guaranteed to all of us in life point at which we are, you know, um, we incarnate and we're born into these bodies.
We start dying, you know, even at. 01, you know, day old. Like we are dying at that point.
Eva: there's a, there's like a, I think a Jack, I don't know if it's the Jack Kornfield quote, but he's like, the cause of death is birth.
Ellen: right.
Eva: that's basically it. And I'm like, oh, [01:14:00] yeah.
Ellen: Exactly. And yeah, it's something that I think a lot of people here don't want to think about or contend with or deal with, or, you know, they think of it as like negative or, um, scary. And so I, I'm now of the belief that like, If we allow ourselves to practice death, and when I say practice, I mean going on these, you know, spirit medicine journeys, because you literally die in these journeys, and not just this ego death that I think a lot of people like to talk about, but you die, you let go of things, you let go of ways that you've seen yourself, and you allow space for new energy to come through in each one of these, so I, I prefer, and I prefer to practice death, over and over and over again.
I prefer to lean into death, to honor like right now we're recording and You know, 1st of November. So this is like the time, it's Scorpio season, it's the [01:15:00] time of death, it's the time to honor the fact that, guess what, death is happening every single day with each one of our breaths. Like this is something that the mushroom taught us, or taught me, like every time that like I inhaled.
You know, they were showing me this is a birth. Every time you exhale, there is a death. There's a letting go. And so it's so, I find it so baffling and in such a beautiful and, um, almost kind of amusing way that the way our human bodies are designed, we would literally have Birth and death that allows us to be here on this planet in these bodies.
We are experiencing birth and death every single moment we're breathing, you know, it's like it's like hiding the the secret sauce like right underneath you. Like, and we just fail to see it. And they're showing me how like this idea of like, you know, inhaling being this expansion and exhaling being this contraction this death.
This is what [01:16:00] propels the universe. So you can't just keep on expanding, expanding, expanding, you know, you have to kind of come back down and contract and be tired and rest and go back into the womb space, go back into the, the, the void into the darkness. So it's, I think this honoring of. Both life and death, but especially the death, allows us to live even more fully and with a lot less fear so that by the time we do get to the end of our physical lives, the physical lives of our bodies, I feel like we will have a lot less regrets.
We will have said the things that we need to say, we will have done the things that we wanted to do. But perhaps we're a little bit afraid to do, we will have done them, you know? So that's, that's where I feel so called to this work. How can we live more presently? How can we live more liberated, more bravely[01:17:00]
Eva: Yeah.
Ellen: by considering death more regularly?
Kyley: I love everything that you said. Oh my God. And personally, I have been watching my relation to the breath for a while, and I have been watching how much I have like a longing for deeper exhale. That's a metaphor that I use a lot. And it's interesting because a lot of my work is about, is about, you know, it's also about death.
And so, I am really relishing what you're giving me, which is my longing is for like a deeper, like a deeper dying. And so that I'm just tucking that in and I'm going to sit with that. So thank you a lot. Um, and I'm reminded of, um, a friend of mine is a death jewel in New Zealand. Um, and she, uh, I was at a workshop of hers recently and a question came up from the workshop, which is what does death ask of you?
And immediately the question [01:18:00] came up from that. For me, my answer was death asks us to leave it all on the dance floor,
Ellen: Yes.
Kyley: And like,
Ellen: chills.
Kyley: yeah. Um, so I'm just thanking you for, yeah, this invitation that you're giving us to let death be our invitation to be alive.
Ellen: Yeah, it's surrender, right? It's the, it's the ultimate surrender.
Kyley: Yeah.
Ellen: And the only way you could surrender is to trust. To trust that you're held. Trust that you're okay. Trust that you're safe.
Kyley: Yeah. Yeah.
Eva: Um, okay. I guess I just want to share that. I'm just thankful for this because I think anytime that I go into any kind of plant journey. [01:19:00] The parallel to this is that I think sometimes there's an invitation in plant medicine to completely let go, which actually brings us into that like death. And I think it's okay if we don't let go. I mean, I've had, I've had chance, I've had experiences where I'm like, okay, no, no, no, I'm too scared. I can't let go.
And then I like pull back and I've not judged myself for that. And I think that's been very kind, but I've also seen that actually it's I can actually let go. And it is a death that I get to experience what I'm meant to experience in that moment. There's a, there's a, there's an opportunity for real opening and liberation and rebirth.
And, and. The way that we do that is, yeah, to surrender, like what, you know, letting go is to surrender. Um, I love this idea of practicing death every day, you know, in our, in our everyday lives and appreciating, or really what I'm hearing you say is cultivating a relationship with death so that [01:20:00] when, um, our own bodies pass, or maybe the bodies of loved ones pass, um, we can have a different relationship with it.
That being said, what I want to ask, and this is a very selfish question, yeah, Okay, for context I got my dad is actually in the hospital right now because he had and he's fine now and it's kind of up and down and to be honest, it's to be determined, but, you know, I do think about my parents dying as they're getting older.
And so I can think like what and so I and I had to face that very recently just like two days ago I got a call where I was like okay shit like shit might be going down. And I think my question is, so do you fear death of loved ones. At this point in your life.
Ellen: You know, I actually don't, it's, it's really interesting. Like this is the first time I'm saying this out loud. Like I actually don't fear. loved ones dying. And I think the reason is because, you know, my dad died when I was 15 and I [01:21:00] spent the better part, like the next 30 years, almost 30 years, like escaping the grief, like rejecting it, resisting it any which way I could.
And I think after the last five years of like really confronting my grief and befriending my grief and also in doing so, Cultivating a new relationship with him through meditation, through this energy work, through spirit medicine, like being able to feel his spirit, being able to like, just even recently I was guiding, um, a medicine journey and it turned out to be the most hilarious, like we were laughing for through half the journey.
It was so much I've never had. Uh, the honor of facilitating a journey quite like this before, but so much laughter and then there was a moment of quiet when, when I was like, my dad popped in and I heard him in my head kind of like laughing and I was like, Oh my God. He's here this and I just [01:22:00] like started to cry because I just felt such gratitude and connection with him in this moment.
And so I think my relationship with him actually has grown stronger. It's different. It's different than the relationship I had with him when he was, you know, embodied but he's still here, you know, and I now have an even deeper relationship with my nine nine, his mother, my grandmother. Now in death than I did when she was alive, you know, like when she was alive, we had the whole like, you know, she's my elder, I had to respect her all this, you know, there's this like separation language barrier.
Now, I just know her spirit differently and I know I she and my dad have been like, helping me like kind of pushing me gently along on this whole path of healing, so I could feel their spirit I know that they're here. And I think. To me, my relationship with this embodied, like the death of my physical body, I see it as that.
And so I see it like with my [01:23:00] loved ones, like my mom, for instance, you know, probably within the next 15, 20 years, she's going to most likely die maybe sooner than that. But I also. You know, I'm going to be sad. I'm going to grieve, obviously the relationship and the change in this relationship, but I no longer fear it because I think it's, I don't see it as this disappearance the way I did when I was younger, it's just a change in form, kind of like, like ice melting, you know?
So I think that has given me a lot of peace.
Eva: holy shit. That was such big medicine. Ellen. I can't thank you enough for that. I'm crying and also, um, yeah, just so, um, I don't know. I have a straight. I've never, I've never had, I've never experienced death in my life. So that's 1, 1 thing. That's very. to me. I think [01:24:00] usually by my age, most people would maybe have at least experienced the death of a grandparent, but all four of my grandparents are still kicking.
And so I've always been curious about how I would react and I can't tell if this is an ego story or if this is a real story, but I'm I have this weird sense of like, I don't know if I, okay. So let me start by saying that I think that death is a living problem, right? Like when you're, when you're passing the person who's passed, like they're onto their next journey, but it's the people who are left to grieve.
It's, it's our problem. So, so I say that to say, I also feel like I have this weird feeling of like, I don't know if I'm afraid of people dying, but I've never, I always felt like it was so insensitive to say that because it felt wrong, like, and I felt. Like a bad person to be like, oh, but I, I think it, I get it.
I understand. And also, I don't know if that's true. Once I experienced death, I could be a fucking wreck and all of that would be okay, but there was [01:25:00] something so. I don't know. I just think you're modeling for me personally in this moment, a different relationship with death that speaks to something within me that I think I want to explore more of.
And also just like, how many of us have fraught relationships with our parents in, in, in like how they are now? And, and also what I, part of the reason I was crying is because I love my dad so dearly, but sometimes he's just like such a close stereotypical Asian man that it's hard for us to get to like.
The softer moments and I can imagine I was imagining like the beauty of could develop when he passes is that this relationship would continue on but in a new way. And that was like, so beautiful.
Ellen: Yeah, because you don't carry those wounds anymore when you're, you know, and so my dad, I mean, yeah, same thing. I had a lot of, um, human problems, you know, [01:26:00] human relational issues with my dad and, you know, definitely the abandonment that I felt or that I feel was from him. And, um, yeah, so many things, but it's, I think.
in this new relationship. I can, I took a mediumship class, first of all, and he popped in a few times when the class was practicing and he's just so funny. Like, like his humor really comes through and the, the things that he'll show people, like he, like he was trying to, like, they're trying to, it's, it's most easy for, I think, people who've Passed on to, um, to show things that will kind of communicate things that you'll understand.
So using your language, like your language may not be the same as mine. So he's like showing people in my class, like a cowboy hat. He's never worn a cowboy hat once in his life, but I grew up in Texas. And so that was his way of like, you know, and then he [01:27:00] always thought he looked so cool in his sunglasses, you know?
And so he would show them in sunglasses and immediately it's like. As they're talking and we were doing these like group readings, it's like I'm seeing, you know, cowboy hat, sunglass. I knew instantly it was my dad. And I just started to like laugh inside because I'm like, of course, of course you would show them that those things, you know, it cracked me up.
And so that's what I feel sort of like. Oh, we still have that connection. He used to love fart jokes. I don't know why, but he was just like so into like the most base level humor possible. And he was like a double PhD, like very, very well studied person. So I'm just like, okay, this is super weird, but okay.
So I appreciate that about him. And like the relationship, definitely. It's like a lot of the wounded. Aspects of our relationship have kind of dissolved and now I can love him as this like this Spirit that is like with me, you know, [01:28:00] so
Eva: This is just so much important. This conversation is so important. I think you're doing such beautiful and important work. So, ah, thank you so much for coming on to share and, um, I'm just mindful of time. I know you got to go soon, so we could talk forever. Yes, Kylie.
Kyley: add one thing before we do a rapid fire joy? Um, Eva, I think. You are not afraid of people dying because you are aware that you will ride those waves, right? I don't think you're under an illusion that you know If and when your parents die, it will be easy and it won't disrupt you and it won't totally undo you I just think that you aren't afraid of it because you understand you will Let yourself be undone by it.
Eva: So beautiful, Kylie.
Ellen: beautiful
Eva: thank you so, I mean, what a good fucking friend to be like, I see you in this way. And I, I thank you. I could, yeah, [01:29:00] thank you so much.
Kyley: Okay. Should we do like rapid fire joy? Okay. Ellen.
Ellen: what is bringing me joy right
Kyley: Oh yes. Yes. Also, if you want to tell people where they can find you.
Ellen: Okay. Sure. Um, So what's bringing me joy right now, honestly, is just the earth. Like everything that she gives us. Like I was swimming the ocean, just crying, just like, thank you. Thank you. Thank you to mother ocean and this beautiful land and like the trees, everything that is keeping me grounded through all the chaos right now.
It's like, it's hard for me to be with humans right now, but I think the earth and all of her children, I'm just, I know, and humans are part of that as well, but I just feel like so held by the trees and just by the land right now. It's everything. It's bringing me so much joy. And where people can find me is, um, you can go to trip with Ellen on [01:30:00] Instagram.
Uh, it's also trip with ellen. com on my website. So if you have any questions, just hit me up there.
Eva: Can you also say a plug about your podcast and tell us more about
Ellen: Oh yeah. Oh, um, I am, I just started a podcast at the end of. August, so it's only a couple of months old, but it's called mum and it's all about, um, stories of death and grief that inspire us to live loud because I'm somebody who had to really silence her grief and didn't really have grief, um, expression modeled for me.
Um, also being Chinese and Taiwanese from a, a very, uh, Just a, you know, culture that doesn't like to express emotion and so I had to really learn
Eva: Uh huh.
Ellen: You know, so this has been very healing for me just to hear other people's stories I'm literally about to hop off to go and record an episode with a friend of mine who also went through this death doula training
Kyley: Hmm.
Ellen: But yeah, I'm just finding, [01:31:00] like, so nourishing these stories of death and grief that we have that connect us, you know, and that it's, it's, we all have them.
Like, even if you haven't actually experienced a death in your life, you've experienced grief, you know, you've experienced loss in some way. And I think the more we can talk about it, the more normalized it becomes and the more we can face it more bravely and more, um, yeah, just move through
Eva: beautiful. I cannot wait to listen. So is it mum, like M U M?
Ellen: Mm hmm. Mom.
Eva: Okay, well, we'll link all that in the show notes, folks. Um, okay. Kaiya, do you want me to go or you want to go?
Kyley: I have a quick one, which is just yesterday was Halloween and I have two kids, so it was so fun. And, um, my daughter rest up as a witch and every time someone, uh, she wore a costume all day, every time someone complimented her costume, she would say, thanks. It's my Halloween costume, which was great.
And then she would say. She would like kind of whisper, and
Eva: Connie. [01:32:00] Yes. Yes.
Kyley: then all night on Halloween, cause I also dressed up like a witch. She kept holding my hand. She was calling me big witch to her little witch.
Eva: Oh my god.
Kyley: And at the end of the night, she basically confessed that she didn't want it to end. And I was like, well, here's the thing we're real witches.
So. Even if we're not dressed up, we know we can, we're just big witch and little witch forever.
Eva: Fuck yes.
Kyley: you just hug and it was
Ellen: so cute. Yeah.
Eva: Yeah, kids on Halloween is truly the best. Um, okay. So mine is, today is a big day. Today is my last day in Austin. I'm actually getting on a plane to start a new adventure tomorrow. So, um, actually there's, yeah, there's a lot, I'm going to LA first and then I'm going to Taiwan and then I might be going to South America.
So all these things are happening that I haven't, that I keep teasing and not having really talked about, but, oh, right. No, well, the joy is that, um, as I was reflecting this morning and doing a little meditation, I was like, I [01:33:00] feel really old me would have been like, I don't know. There's always just a part of me that's a maximalist.
That's like, I've only been here for eight months. I should have done more. I should have like, blah, blah, blah. And I could see myself getting into that story. And I was in my stillness. I was like, no, like it feels so good to feel complete. Like I feel, and I don't need to like, there's a greed in me.
Sometimes that beats me up. Cause I'm like, it should have been more. And I'm like, Oh no, it's okay to be content with what. Is, and so that felt like such beautiful medicine and, and so a new, let the adventure continue.
Ellen: So excited for you. I can't wait to hear all the things.
Eva: I can't wait to share when it, when it all comes out. All right, everybody.
Ellen: Thank you guys so much. This is so nourishing. I can't again. No words. I'm so so grateful that this happened today. Um, I needed to have this conversation more than I could really express right now. So thank you guys so much.
Eva: [01:34:00] This was truly amazing. Thank you.